November 14, 2023 • 24 mins
Next up on the Black Heels and Tractor Wheels Podcast, we have Jen Scoular. Jen is an avocado grower, Board Chair of House of Science NZ, Board Member of International Fresh Produce Association AU & NZ and immediate past CEO NZ Avocado.
After 12 years at the helm of NZ Avocado, Jen stepped down earlier this year. After such an exciting career journey, we are very excited to see where Jen's path takes her next!
We really enjoyed Jen's openness and enthusiastic personality, something that she is very passionate about bringing into her workplace culture.
Jen speaks to us about her unconventional path throughout her career, her love for the horticulture industry, getting out of your comfort zone and being vulnerable, and cheering for people when they try (and fail).
Thank you so much to Jen for taking the time out of her busy schedule to chat to us!
Listen here: https://linktr.ee/ruralwomennz
#blackheelsandtractorwheels #podcast #ruralwomennz
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to season six of the Black Hills and Tractoriis podcasts,
brought to you by us in Real Women.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
This season on the podcast, we are interviewing the ogs,
the badass ladies of the agricultural world, the ones who,
in my case, you might see at a conference get
all nervous and flustered. You might embarrass yourself in front
of them, because that's that amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
The theme of this season is the big stuff, the
juicy topics, like how they got into leadership positions, what
it means to be a CEO, how you add value
around a board table, and has the agricultural industry actually
changed does it even like females? All these things and
more this season and these ladies do not hold back.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Look, we would love to hear from you, and even more,
we would love for you to sign up as a
member of Rural Women New Zealand. So check us out
on our socials, give us a Google hit, the join
bud it and help us make more of a difference
for rural women across New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
So jam in terms of in terms of your background,
what is it that we need to know about you
that has made you who you are today?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
How are you?
Speaker 6 (01:14):
A good question I am. I think one of the
big things is that I haven't done taken the conventional
route I did have on my wall as a as
a kid or as a teenager. Robert Frost's two roads
diverged into a ward, and I I took the road
left travel and that has made all the difference.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So I.
Speaker 6 (01:37):
Probably started off as the third daughter and a family
of four with the younger brother, so there was no
pressure on me to do anything in particular, but lots
of opportunity to decide what I wanted to do and
how I did that. And I think that if I
look back on my long career, I have really taken
(01:59):
a few risks. I have definitely taken sideways moves. I've
definitely taken roles that you'd wonder if I really could
do them, but I did them anyway. I have definitely
screwed up. I do say I'm quite good at apologizing
because I actually screw up quite often. I have to,
but that's okay. These days, I think you say you
(02:19):
make mistakes rather than you screw up, and you learn
from mistakes. But I also I have got lots of
energy because I create that energy and that's really important
to me. And I'm probably still learning, and I'm still
putting myself out there and still looking back and saying
how do I do this better? And how do I
(02:41):
and for going forward, how do I say, what's my
next step to help New Zealand and particularly help consum
New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I enjoy that you've just talked about basically being a
lifelong learner and just wanting to keep growing and developing
and moving forward.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
And we're going to come back to that.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
But before me delve into some of those juicy segues
you've just given us around sideways, moves and resk and
some of the some of the more memorable mistakes, can
you just give us a quick highlight in terms of
snapshot of your career. Where did you kind of start
out and where have you just recently landed?
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Sure, so I we I'm going back a long way.
But we sold plums from my dad's from my mum
and dad's place at the end of the gate every year,
and when I was fifteen, we happened to have a
really really good year. We made a ton of money,
so much so that my dad said we'd need to
put something in shares. So we went to his stockbroker,
(03:44):
a very male, dark office, and I bought shares, and
therefore I had the I got the annual report each
year and those came in and they were a glossy, nice,
glossy brochure and at the back it had the name
the directors and photos, and quite a lot of them
had ACA or LLB on them, as in a chartered
(04:06):
accountant or a lawyer. And I went, I could do that.
So I had thought to follow my dad into medicine,
but I was actually getting a bit lazy by my
ten years. So I went to UNI and did an
accounting degree. I was really good at accounting, so I
did not work very hard. Got my accounting degree and
it's been a great backbone, but I've never been a
(04:29):
practicing accountant. But then went into a couple of jobs
at IBM at Unialiba a bit boring. So at twenty
three I headed off to London. My sister was already there.
Got a job at a merchant bank for a two
week temp job that ended up for a year. Big
bang happened, lots happening. Sister got married. Tim back to
New Zealand, had three weeks after the wedding rung my
(04:52):
boss in London taken up a job back because I
was a bit bored, went back and did nine years
in London and merchant banking, met my husband. He transferred
to Munich, where I didn't want to go because I'd
just been promoted. But interesting, I don't quite know what happened,
but he went. I was pregnant in London for six
(05:12):
months and then joined him for maternity leave, which became
a career break, three years in Germany, had my first
baby in German, which I would not definitely would not recommend,
and then was going back to my job in London
and I but we wanted another child. I didn't really
want to work and commute in London. So we said
(05:34):
to our packers that were packing us up from Munich
to go back to London, do you ship to New Zealand?
They said, I think that I could hear them flicking
the pages of like where's New Zealand and anyway? So
we five days later We're going to New Zealand and
not London. Took a year off, had Molly in New
Zealand's second daughter, and then and actually while I was
(05:57):
nine months pregnant. I was going door knocking to see
if I can get a job job, applied for lots
of jobs and didn't. Then he didn't even get interviews.
And then got a little job at a financial planner
because I've been a merchant banking but they actually expect
the medita of the vacuuming at the end of a Friday.
And then got a job at Keelfort, New Zealand, which
(06:17):
became Zesbury very fast. Nine years there, saw a job
for a diplomat in the paper, went to Germany as
a diplomat for four years, got made redundant from my
diploma diproclanetic role, and saw a job for the avocado
industry and came back and had twelve and a half
years and avocados.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Wow, when I want to have your life, it sounds
very fun and exciting, and I can see what you
were meaning before. Around which way you know, twists and
turns have have happened.
Speaker 7 (06:49):
Just a quick side note. Do you speak German at all?
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Did? I learned German twice? But and I was I
did my going away speak four New Zealand. I have
a card at my party last Thursday, and I thought,
I always get nervous doing speeches, even though I've made
it done a lot. But remember last time I was
doing it in front of about seventy diplomats in German,
(07:12):
so this was easy. So yes, I did. But I'm
not a linguist and I had ten years off between
my role my two terms times in Germany, and I
forgot it all so I and it doesn't just come
back when you're an adult. Well it might to brainy people,
but didn't to me. But I relearned and that was
(07:33):
quite good.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I love that I speak a bit of French, and
I studied it for an embarrassingly.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Long time for my competency.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
But I just want to pick up on these kind
of twists and turns that you had in your career
because it really interests me how you got these different roles,
because they feel like there was a few that were
sort of broadly in a similar space but also quite
different from each other. And I want to hear a
(08:03):
little bit about your interview planning and how you got
into some of these roles because they just sound so interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So, yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that, Tony.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
I can. I can tell you I hate interviews, interviews,
I'm I allowed to say the word. You feel like
you prostitute yourself on the table, right, you have to say, whoa,
this is what? This is amazing. I am unbelievably amazing.
Though I did hear we did I was. I listened
to a podcast with Sarah rob o'hagen, who's a New
(08:38):
Zealander doing amazing bad Arts Women in the States, and
she said she's had a couple of super super duper
CEO roles and has crashed and burned and then had
to go and apply for another job. And she's done
it twice, she said. The first time she said, oh,
she had to explain why she had three months off
and you know, like try to cover it all up.
Second time said you want to see, I've had a
(09:00):
break in my career. I was out there. I failed.
It was way out of line. I learned this, this
and this, and I'm taking these learnings for this new job.
But I don't like interviews, but I prepare for them.
I do lots of homework for them. And interestingly, you
can ask all these questions and they tell you, right,
(09:21):
there's no disclosure information disclosure thing. They tell you lots
about the role. I've sort of had a rule that
every couple of years you have to do an interview
because they're horrible because you have to prepare yourself, you
have to explain yourself. It's a really good self learning
to say, how do how do I describe my last ten, five, ten,
(09:46):
twenty years. It's a very good and you're with people
you don't know often or you do know, it's even worse.
So I've actually applied for a lot more jobs than
I've ever got and also a learning because you get
that sorry, you weren't successful this time. And I've also
interviewed quite a lot of people as well, and so
(10:06):
you learn to be a better interviewer because you work
out what they learned about you that you actually didn't
want to share but apparently did it. So I and
I have moved countries, so I've had to get a
new role. I haven't necessarily had a new role when
I've moved or when I've been needing to move, so
(10:29):
I have I think when I got back from the
Germany the first time I've been a director of a
merchant bank in London, I was a trained accountant. I've
been at IBM immunion lever in New Zealand. I sent
forty one applications off and I did not get one interview,
So you know, it's not I've One of the things
I know about myself is that I work really hard
(10:52):
and I do my homework, and I if I want
to get somewhere, I really work for it. I'm not
I don't think I was fantastic at anything. Every single
thing you have to say, Okay, how do I make
this happen? What do I need to do to make
this happen?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, But one of the other things you said at
the start, which really intrigued me was I've asked myself
many times can I really do this? But then I
went ahead and did it anyway. And I'd like to
ask some specifics about that, because I think everybody has
a little bit of that sort of imposter syndrome, and
it's a real particular thing for women to have, particularly
(11:33):
women that.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Are taking senior leadership type roles.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So what did you mean by that and how did
you overcome those challenges?
Speaker 6 (11:43):
I mean, I think at the end of the day
is I know myself pretty well now, and I I
did the Agri Woman Development Trust Escalate a program in
twenty nineteen, which was really fantastic for me. That I
think it's that I know there are things I do
(12:04):
really well there. I know there are things that I do,
provided i'd do the work to do them. I speak
well these days, provided I've done written my speech, provided
I've practiced it, but provided I'm saying stories that actually
mean something to me. Right, But if you get me
out to talk about something that's not really a passion,
(12:25):
I won't do it very well. So I and even
where I've not achieved what I wanted to achieve, I'll
look back and go, yeah, because I wasn't brave enough
to bring people that I should have to get them
on board. I wasn't brave enough to rely on other people.
(12:47):
I wasn't. I didn't do things that when I look back,
I go, Okay, that was just I did. I can
figure out what I didn't do well enough that meant
I didn't succeed in what I was trying to do.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
All of that makes sense, and I love that I
resonate with that. Quite personally, I like to think of
myself as a bit of a battler, So I've got
to do a lot of the prep work, a lot
of the mahi, but I do find it comes out
and emerges as confidence, and that's just kind of how
I operate, So I love that someone else.
Speaker 7 (13:20):
Does that as well.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
Segueing now into the industry, how do you think the
industry has changed over time when it comes to women
and leadership positions? Because if I take a look around
and there doesn't seem to be well, it depends on
which point in time you're referring to, but it seems
(13:42):
as though there could be a little bit more work
done there. How do you feel about women and leadership
positions in the industry.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
I think the woman I know in leadership positions are
the best in leadership positions. I think we are not
doing well. When I left this, every one of the
most common things my colleague said was, oh, Jen, you
were our next, our best hope to have a woman
on the executive team, right, And they have got a
(14:12):
few women on the executive team. They've still only got
one board member who's a female. When I look around
at horticulture sectors and i'm in that area, often there's
a lot of the workers like me leading our sectors
or our sector bodies, But we're all reporting to boards
(14:32):
dominated by males. We got three women on them. He's
in the Avocada board for a while. And the ones
that are just stepping up that you don't see any
women who aren't terrific stepping up and wait until they
are really really ready and you know that they're going
to win before they step up, and that might not
(14:55):
be happening. So it's definitely still male dominated at a
governor level, it's still mail dominated at a in the
field level. It's an amazing career for women, and it's
a yeah, And I don't quite know how we get
more school girls interested in horticulture because we've got some
(15:20):
great role models, the Younger of the Year and the
Bay of Plenty. I think we've had four out of
five of the last years have been amazing women. And
how do we keep getting that going? And how do
we encourage women that aren't already at the top to
put their name forward, maybe not to get in, but
(15:40):
to keep putting the name up there.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Maybe it's a confidence thing, like some of the answers
that you've just mentioned about women waiting till they're really
really ready, so they're really certain they've got all their
ducks in a row, and then they'll put their hand
up because they think they've got a really good chance
of winning.
Speaker 7 (16:03):
Maybe it's a confidence thing. Maybe it's a.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Combination of confidence and then shifting things so that it is.
Speaker 7 (16:12):
By design a little bit more.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
How does that fit with you as a CEO or
someone who's been in that CEO position around ensuring that
women get a fair chance by design.
Speaker 6 (16:26):
And if I look at my own team, I'm really
proud of the responses, particularly in my leaving card, from
my team and from the woman. And I look at
one who's been I hope she won't mind, but she's
been our receptionist and she's actually got a really good
(16:46):
feel for numbers and they're accounting, and I'm obviously that's
going to be a lost because I'm leaving. And so
I've just specifically worked with her over the last couple
of weeks because this is quite a new thing, and
set down with her in my last couple of weeks
and said, okay, let's go through and I'll show you
how to do zero reports because you're able to do them,
(17:07):
and she's doing them. And I send her a little
note today because she's doing something that's out of her
comfort zone today and so in the workplace, it's definitely possible.
And we have a policy which I bought in and
learning from Germany, if you're on maternity leave, when the
pay run when you're when the pay changes go through,
(17:29):
So we have a change of pay. If you're going
to get a change of pay, it's from the first
of May. If you're on maternity leave, you get the
average percentage of the team. Right. So I've got two
ladies to well, I've had four ladies on maternity leave
over my time. One of them's just getting her third
incremental pay rise even though she's on maternity leave, so
(17:52):
she's not nine percent below her male colleagues and after
three babies, you know, And it's so you can definitely
bring in those changes. I I Yeah, when I interview people,
I am very aware that women will never say they
can speak French when they can't. I know males that
(18:16):
do say that, right, And they have a couple of
phrases that they can just pull out if they need to.
And it's and even at work, I just you hear people. Yeah,
I've been surrounded for a long time with the confidence
of males and the lack of confidence and females. How
(18:37):
do you change that. I don't know other than tick
helping our female colleagues to do that and tearing for
them when they tried and failed, because that's actually something
that we can sort of laugh at ourselves. You know.
Self depreciate is a good thing to be able to
do as well. But we're definitely not there yet.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
That I think.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
One of the other things I'm really curious about, since
you've been so open about the idea of making mistakes
and you know then figuring out how to do better
next time, is what do you think makes a good leader?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
What does a good CEO look like? How do they
deal with their team? And how is that successful? In
your mind?
Speaker 6 (19:23):
Oh? Hard question. I mean, I'm a CEO, but for
a little industry body, I need to be the voice
of the industry as well. You have to forever be
learning listening. Every time you make a speech or do
a do a presentation at the board meeting, you have
(19:45):
to figure out what people how people are reacting to you.
When you're having a team meeting, when you're having an
individual meeting, you might have a plan of what you're
going to say, but you have to figure out. You
have to be engaged with what you say and what
people here are definitely not always the same thing. It
makes it hard when you're being interviewed, for example, on
(20:08):
the radio, and it's on the phone and you can't
see people. You know, that's probably something I've always I
always have to walk around to get my brain going
right because to make sure. But it's so as a leader,
you have to be bold, you have to be you
have to have a clear plan. People like to see
that you're out there, that you've got a plan, that
(20:28):
you're working to the plan. But they like to see
a little bit of vulnerability. They like to know that
you give a little bit of yourself away. You know.
My team love that I run because I talk about it.
They love that I've got two amazing daughters because I
talk about them. They know that, if in doubt, make
(20:49):
it pink because that'll make the boss happy. But they
also know I really don't like it when you have
inconsistent date formats in your AVOCN article. You know, So
it's the people. I think. People like to know who
you are and how you operate, and you know, as
(21:10):
I left or even you know, people know when to
come to me with a difficult problem or how to
solve you know, what they might how they might need
to set me up to hear something they know I
might not want to hear, but they need to tell
me and convince me otherwise. So I think as a leader,
you do need a little bit of that vulnerability, let
(21:31):
a little bit of yourself out there because people want
to know you. But you also have to walk the talk.
You have to be bold, you have to be brave,
You have to have conversations that are tough, and you
have to but consistency on your path and how you
take that path and your behavior is really important.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
To thank you so much for all of your comments
here and your openness with what you just shared with us,
because hearing directly from you around your your your vulnerability,
as you just spoke about your authenticity and how you
show up to a job as a leader, and the
examples that you've given around being bold and brave, I
(22:15):
think are some of the key highlights for me here
and and wrapping this up, I just wanted to ask
one final comment from you, and obviously has been a
change in your life lately, so really keen to hear
what's what's next in the path of gen.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
So I did attend two board meetings last night. I
happened to have both of them at five thirty yesterday.
So I so I am looking at a couple of
options in Toronga or one's international, one's national. I have
got a consultancy role with International Fresh Produce Association when
(22:56):
I get back from Europe. But I go to Europe
to see my daughters who are both in London on
Friday week for five weeks, which was always planned, but
it was going to be the day after the AGM.
But I resigned a week before the AGM. Very good decision.
And so I still I just want to look. I'm
(23:17):
looking to see how I can utilize my energy, my experience,
my passions to take another step to help New Zealand.
I'm passionate about New Zealand. I've still got something about
making sure New Zealand kids are fed that I haven't
explored well enough yet and I am. But I'm also
(23:38):
keen to have a bit of downtime and go for
runs at quarter to nine in the morning and not
at half about six in the morning, and also connects
back with my friends because I've been pretty hopeless at
that because I've been so busy.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
So many amazing things are going to come your way,
I know, and the organizations that take you on are
going to be very lucky to have your enthusiasm and
your energy.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
We would love to have you hear a Real Women
New Zealand as well, because we have a really big
cohort of people who work in that horticulture industry, so
keep that in mind.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
I'm sure going to have a cut of grower, so
I've got.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Used to me too, but I'm not a very good one.
Speaker 6 (24:20):
But maybe I'll get better when I've got more time.
So thank you, wonderful, thank you.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
Well that was it.
Speaker 7 (24:29):
That's the podcast. That's us for today.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
We hope you ento the yarns and please do let
us know if you have any comments or questions.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
We would love to hear from you.
Speaker 7 (24:39):
Look, it really does make all the difference.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Please hit the button to follow us like the podcast,
click on the button to join as a member of
Real Women New Zealand.
Speaker 7 (24:49):
We promise you you'll have some fun
Welcome to season six of the Black Hills and Tractoriis podcasts,
brought to you by us in Real Women.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
This season on the podcast, we are interviewing the ogs,
the badass ladies of the agricultural world, the ones who,
in my case, you might see at a conference get
all nervous and flustered. You might embarrass yourself in front
of them, because that's that amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
The theme of this season is the big stuff, the
juicy topics, like how they got into leadership positions, what
it means to be a CEO, how you add value
around a board table, and has the agricultural industry actually
changed does it even like females? All these things and
more this season and these ladies do not hold back.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Look, we would love to hear from you, and even more,
we would love for you to sign up as a
member of Rural Women New Zealand. So check us out
on our socials, give us a Google hit, the join
bud it and help us make more of a difference
for rural women across New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (01:01):
So jam in terms of in terms of your background,
what is it that we need to know about you
that has made you who you are today?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
How are you?
Speaker 6 (01:14):
A good question I am. I think one of the
big things is that I haven't done taken the conventional
route I did have on my wall as a as
a kid or as a teenager. Robert Frost's two roads
diverged into a ward, and I I took the road
left travel and that has made all the difference.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So I.
Speaker 6 (01:37):
Probably started off as the third daughter and a family
of four with the younger brother, so there was no
pressure on me to do anything in particular, but lots
of opportunity to decide what I wanted to do and
how I did that. And I think that if I
look back on my long career, I have really taken
(01:59):
a few risks. I have definitely taken sideways moves. I've
definitely taken roles that you'd wonder if I really could
do them, but I did them anyway. I have definitely
screwed up. I do say I'm quite good at apologizing
because I actually screw up quite often. I have to,
but that's okay. These days, I think you say you
(02:19):
make mistakes rather than you screw up, and you learn
from mistakes. But I also I have got lots of
energy because I create that energy and that's really important
to me. And I'm probably still learning, and I'm still
putting myself out there and still looking back and saying
how do I do this better? And how do I
(02:41):
and for going forward, how do I say, what's my
next step to help New Zealand and particularly help consum
New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I enjoy that you've just talked about basically being a
lifelong learner and just wanting to keep growing and developing
and moving forward.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
And we're going to come back to that.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
But before me delve into some of those juicy segues
you've just given us around sideways, moves and resk and
some of the some of the more memorable mistakes, can
you just give us a quick highlight in terms of
snapshot of your career. Where did you kind of start
out and where have you just recently landed?
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Sure, so I we I'm going back a long way.
But we sold plums from my dad's from my mum
and dad's place at the end of the gate every year,
and when I was fifteen, we happened to have a
really really good year. We made a ton of money,
so much so that my dad said we'd need to
put something in shares. So we went to his stockbroker,
(03:44):
a very male, dark office, and I bought shares, and
therefore I had the I got the annual report each
year and those came in and they were a glossy, nice,
glossy brochure and at the back it had the name
the directors and photos, and quite a lot of them
had ACA or LLB on them, as in a chartered
(04:06):
accountant or a lawyer. And I went, I could do that.
So I had thought to follow my dad into medicine,
but I was actually getting a bit lazy by my
ten years. So I went to UNI and did an
accounting degree. I was really good at accounting, so I
did not work very hard. Got my accounting degree and
it's been a great backbone, but I've never been a
(04:29):
practicing accountant. But then went into a couple of jobs
at IBM at Unialiba a bit boring. So at twenty
three I headed off to London. My sister was already there.
Got a job at a merchant bank for a two
week temp job that ended up for a year. Big
bang happened, lots happening. Sister got married. Tim back to
New Zealand, had three weeks after the wedding rung my
(04:52):
boss in London taken up a job back because I
was a bit bored, went back and did nine years
in London and merchant banking, met my husband. He transferred
to Munich, where I didn't want to go because I'd
just been promoted. But interesting, I don't quite know what happened,
but he went. I was pregnant in London for six
(05:12):
months and then joined him for maternity leave, which became
a career break, three years in Germany, had my first
baby in German, which I would not definitely would not recommend,
and then was going back to my job in London
and I but we wanted another child. I didn't really
want to work and commute in London. So we said
(05:34):
to our packers that were packing us up from Munich
to go back to London, do you ship to New Zealand?
They said, I think that I could hear them flicking
the pages of like where's New Zealand and anyway? So
we five days later We're going to New Zealand and
not London. Took a year off, had Molly in New
Zealand's second daughter, and then and actually while I was
(05:57):
nine months pregnant. I was going door knocking to see
if I can get a job job, applied for lots
of jobs and didn't. Then he didn't even get interviews.
And then got a little job at a financial planner
because I've been a merchant banking but they actually expect
the medita of the vacuuming at the end of a Friday.
And then got a job at Keelfort, New Zealand, which
(06:17):
became Zesbury very fast. Nine years there, saw a job
for a diplomat in the paper, went to Germany as
a diplomat for four years, got made redundant from my
diploma diproclanetic role, and saw a job for the avocado
industry and came back and had twelve and a half
years and avocados.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Wow, when I want to have your life, it sounds
very fun and exciting, and I can see what you
were meaning before. Around which way you know, twists and
turns have have happened.
Speaker 7 (06:49):
Just a quick side note. Do you speak German at all?
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Did? I learned German twice? But and I was I
did my going away speak four New Zealand. I have
a card at my party last Thursday, and I thought,
I always get nervous doing speeches, even though I've made
it done a lot. But remember last time I was
doing it in front of about seventy diplomats in German,
(07:12):
so this was easy. So yes, I did. But I'm
not a linguist and I had ten years off between
my role my two terms times in Germany, and I
forgot it all so I and it doesn't just come
back when you're an adult. Well it might to brainy people,
but didn't to me. But I relearned and that was
(07:33):
quite good.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I love that I speak a bit of French, and
I studied it for an embarrassingly.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Long time for my competency.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
But I just want to pick up on these kind
of twists and turns that you had in your career
because it really interests me how you got these different roles,
because they feel like there was a few that were
sort of broadly in a similar space but also quite
different from each other. And I want to hear a
(08:03):
little bit about your interview planning and how you got
into some of these roles because they just sound so interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So, yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that, Tony.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
I can. I can tell you I hate interviews, interviews,
I'm I allowed to say the word. You feel like
you prostitute yourself on the table, right, you have to say, whoa,
this is what? This is amazing. I am unbelievably amazing.
Though I did hear we did I was. I listened
to a podcast with Sarah rob o'hagen, who's a New
(08:38):
Zealander doing amazing bad Arts Women in the States, and
she said she's had a couple of super super duper
CEO roles and has crashed and burned and then had
to go and apply for another job. And she's done
it twice, she said. The first time she said, oh,
she had to explain why she had three months off
and you know, like try to cover it all up.
Second time said you want to see, I've had a
(09:00):
break in my career. I was out there. I failed.
It was way out of line. I learned this, this
and this, and I'm taking these learnings for this new job.
But I don't like interviews, but I prepare for them.
I do lots of homework for them. And interestingly, you
can ask all these questions and they tell you, right,
(09:21):
there's no disclosure information disclosure thing. They tell you lots
about the role. I've sort of had a rule that
every couple of years you have to do an interview
because they're horrible because you have to prepare yourself, you
have to explain yourself. It's a really good self learning
to say, how do how do I describe my last ten, five, ten,
(09:46):
twenty years. It's a very good and you're with people
you don't know often or you do know, it's even worse.
So I've actually applied for a lot more jobs than
I've ever got and also a learning because you get
that sorry, you weren't successful this time. And I've also
interviewed quite a lot of people as well, and so
(10:06):
you learn to be a better interviewer because you work
out what they learned about you that you actually didn't
want to share but apparently did it. So I and
I have moved countries, so I've had to get a
new role. I haven't necessarily had a new role when
I've moved or when I've been needing to move, so
(10:29):
I have I think when I got back from the
Germany the first time I've been a director of a
merchant bank in London, I was a trained accountant. I've
been at IBM immunion lever in New Zealand. I sent
forty one applications off and I did not get one interview,
So you know, it's not I've One of the things
I know about myself is that I work really hard
(10:52):
and I do my homework, and I if I want
to get somewhere, I really work for it. I'm not
I don't think I was fantastic at anything. Every single
thing you have to say, Okay, how do I make
this happen? What do I need to do to make
this happen?
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, But one of the other things you said at
the start, which really intrigued me was I've asked myself
many times can I really do this? But then I
went ahead and did it anyway. And I'd like to
ask some specifics about that, because I think everybody has
a little bit of that sort of imposter syndrome, and
it's a real particular thing for women to have, particularly
(11:33):
women that.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Are taking senior leadership type roles.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So what did you mean by that and how did
you overcome those challenges?
Speaker 6 (11:43):
I mean, I think at the end of the day
is I know myself pretty well now, and I I
did the Agri Woman Development Trust Escalate a program in
twenty nineteen, which was really fantastic for me. That I
think it's that I know there are things I do
(12:04):
really well there. I know there are things that I do,
provided i'd do the work to do them. I speak
well these days, provided I've done written my speech, provided
I've practiced it, but provided I'm saying stories that actually
mean something to me. Right, But if you get me
out to talk about something that's not really a passion,
(12:25):
I won't do it very well. So I and even
where I've not achieved what I wanted to achieve, I'll
look back and go, yeah, because I wasn't brave enough
to bring people that I should have to get them
on board. I wasn't brave enough to rely on other people.
(12:47):
I wasn't. I didn't do things that when I look back,
I go, Okay, that was just I did. I can
figure out what I didn't do well enough that meant
I didn't succeed in what I was trying to do.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
All of that makes sense, and I love that I
resonate with that. Quite personally, I like to think of
myself as a bit of a battler, So I've got
to do a lot of the prep work, a lot
of the mahi, but I do find it comes out
and emerges as confidence, and that's just kind of how
I operate, So I love that someone else.
Speaker 7 (13:20):
Does that as well.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
Segueing now into the industry, how do you think the
industry has changed over time when it comes to women
and leadership positions? Because if I take a look around
and there doesn't seem to be well, it depends on
which point in time you're referring to, but it seems
(13:42):
as though there could be a little bit more work
done there. How do you feel about women and leadership
positions in the industry.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
I think the woman I know in leadership positions are
the best in leadership positions. I think we are not
doing well. When I left this, every one of the
most common things my colleague said was, oh, Jen, you
were our next, our best hope to have a woman
on the executive team, right, And they have got a
(14:12):
few women on the executive team. They've still only got
one board member who's a female. When I look around
at horticulture sectors and i'm in that area, often there's
a lot of the workers like me leading our sectors
or our sector bodies, But we're all reporting to boards
(14:32):
dominated by males. We got three women on them. He's
in the Avocada board for a while. And the ones
that are just stepping up that you don't see any
women who aren't terrific stepping up and wait until they
are really really ready and you know that they're going
to win before they step up, and that might not
(14:55):
be happening. So it's definitely still male dominated at a
governor level, it's still mail dominated at a in the
field level. It's an amazing career for women, and it's
a yeah, And I don't quite know how we get
more school girls interested in horticulture because we've got some
(15:20):
great role models, the Younger of the Year and the
Bay of Plenty. I think we've had four out of
five of the last years have been amazing women. And
how do we keep getting that going? And how do
we encourage women that aren't already at the top to
put their name forward, maybe not to get in, but
(15:40):
to keep putting the name up there.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Maybe it's a confidence thing, like some of the answers
that you've just mentioned about women waiting till they're really
really ready, so they're really certain they've got all their
ducks in a row, and then they'll put their hand
up because they think they've got a really good chance
of winning.
Speaker 7 (16:03):
Maybe it's a confidence thing. Maybe it's a.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Combination of confidence and then shifting things so that it is.
Speaker 7 (16:12):
By design a little bit more.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
How does that fit with you as a CEO or
someone who's been in that CEO position around ensuring that
women get a fair chance by design.
Speaker 6 (16:26):
And if I look at my own team, I'm really
proud of the responses, particularly in my leaving card, from
my team and from the woman. And I look at
one who's been I hope she won't mind, but she's
been our receptionist and she's actually got a really good
(16:46):
feel for numbers and they're accounting, and I'm obviously that's
going to be a lost because I'm leaving. And so
I've just specifically worked with her over the last couple
of weeks because this is quite a new thing, and
set down with her in my last couple of weeks
and said, okay, let's go through and I'll show you
how to do zero reports because you're able to do them,
(17:07):
and she's doing them. And I send her a little
note today because she's doing something that's out of her
comfort zone today and so in the workplace, it's definitely possible.
And we have a policy which I bought in and
learning from Germany, if you're on maternity leave, when the
pay run when you're when the pay changes go through,
(17:29):
So we have a change of pay. If you're going
to get a change of pay, it's from the first
of May. If you're on maternity leave, you get the
average percentage of the team. Right. So I've got two
ladies to well, I've had four ladies on maternity leave
over my time. One of them's just getting her third
incremental pay rise even though she's on maternity leave, so
(17:52):
she's not nine percent below her male colleagues and after
three babies, you know, And it's so you can definitely
bring in those changes. I I Yeah, when I interview people,
I am very aware that women will never say they
can speak French when they can't. I know males that
(18:16):
do say that, right, And they have a couple of
phrases that they can just pull out if they need to.
And it's and even at work, I just you hear people. Yeah,
I've been surrounded for a long time with the confidence
of males and the lack of confidence and females. How
(18:37):
do you change that. I don't know other than tick
helping our female colleagues to do that and tearing for
them when they tried and failed, because that's actually something
that we can sort of laugh at ourselves. You know.
Self depreciate is a good thing to be able to
do as well. But we're definitely not there yet.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
That I think.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
One of the other things I'm really curious about, since
you've been so open about the idea of making mistakes
and you know then figuring out how to do better
next time, is what do you think makes a good leader?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
What does a good CEO look like? How do they
deal with their team? And how is that successful? In
your mind?
Speaker 6 (19:23):
Oh? Hard question. I mean, I'm a CEO, but for
a little industry body, I need to be the voice
of the industry as well. You have to forever be
learning listening. Every time you make a speech or do
a do a presentation at the board meeting, you have
(19:45):
to figure out what people how people are reacting to you.
When you're having a team meeting, when you're having an
individual meeting, you might have a plan of what you're
going to say, but you have to figure out. You
have to be engaged with what you say and what
people here are definitely not always the same thing. It
makes it hard when you're being interviewed, for example, on
(20:08):
the radio, and it's on the phone and you can't
see people. You know, that's probably something I've always I
always have to walk around to get my brain going
right because to make sure. But it's so as a leader,
you have to be bold, you have to be you
have to have a clear plan. People like to see
that you're out there, that you've got a plan, that
(20:28):
you're working to the plan. But they like to see
a little bit of vulnerability. They like to know that
you give a little bit of yourself away. You know.
My team love that I run because I talk about it.
They love that I've got two amazing daughters because I
talk about them. They know that, if in doubt, make
(20:49):
it pink because that'll make the boss happy. But they
also know I really don't like it when you have
inconsistent date formats in your AVOCN article. You know, So
it's the people. I think. People like to know who
you are and how you operate, and you know, as
(21:10):
I left or even you know, people know when to
come to me with a difficult problem or how to
solve you know, what they might how they might need
to set me up to hear something they know I
might not want to hear, but they need to tell
me and convince me otherwise. So I think as a leader,
you do need a little bit of that vulnerability, let
(21:31):
a little bit of yourself out there because people want
to know you. But you also have to walk the talk.
You have to be bold, you have to be brave,
You have to have conversations that are tough, and you
have to but consistency on your path and how you
take that path and your behavior is really important.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
To thank you so much for all of your comments
here and your openness with what you just shared with us,
because hearing directly from you around your your your vulnerability,
as you just spoke about your authenticity and how you
show up to a job as a leader, and the
examples that you've given around being bold and brave, I
(22:15):
think are some of the key highlights for me here
and and wrapping this up, I just wanted to ask
one final comment from you, and obviously has been a
change in your life lately, so really keen to hear
what's what's next in the path of gen.
Speaker 6 (22:34):
So I did attend two board meetings last night. I
happened to have both of them at five thirty yesterday.
So I so I am looking at a couple of
options in Toronga or one's international, one's national. I have
got a consultancy role with International Fresh Produce Association when
(22:56):
I get back from Europe. But I go to Europe
to see my daughters who are both in London on
Friday week for five weeks, which was always planned, but
it was going to be the day after the AGM.
But I resigned a week before the AGM. Very good decision.
And so I still I just want to look. I'm
(23:17):
looking to see how I can utilize my energy, my experience,
my passions to take another step to help New Zealand.
I'm passionate about New Zealand. I've still got something about
making sure New Zealand kids are fed that I haven't
explored well enough yet and I am. But I'm also
(23:38):
keen to have a bit of downtime and go for
runs at quarter to nine in the morning and not
at half about six in the morning, and also connects
back with my friends because I've been pretty hopeless at
that because I've been so busy.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
So many amazing things are going to come your way,
I know, and the organizations that take you on are
going to be very lucky to have your enthusiasm and
your energy.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
We would love to have you hear a Real Women
New Zealand as well, because we have a really big
cohort of people who work in that horticulture industry, so
keep that in mind.
Speaker 6 (24:14):
I'm sure going to have a cut of grower, so
I've got.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Used to me too, but I'm not a very good one.
Speaker 6 (24:20):
But maybe I'll get better when I've got more time.
So thank you, wonderful, thank you.
Speaker 7 (24:25):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
Well that was it.
Speaker 7 (24:29):
That's the podcast. That's us for today.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
We hope you ento the yarns and please do let
us know if you have any comments or questions.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
We would love to hear from you.
Speaker 7 (24:39):
Look, it really does make all the difference.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Please hit the button to follow us like the podcast,
click on the button to join as a member of
Real Women New Zealand.
Speaker 7 (24:49):
We promise you you'll have some fun
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