October 29, 2024 • 46 mins
We have a chat with Sandra Matthews, Chair of RWNZ and local community legend. We yarn about engendering volunteering from a young age, developing identity as a woman coming onto a farm from outside, depression and anxiety, and also leadership pathways.
Sandra delivers some stellar advice on governance, leading yourself and leading others. Thank you so much Sandra for being so candid and open with us!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Black Heels and track de Wheels.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
The Rural Women and z podcast hosted by Emma Higgins
and Claire Williamson.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Today on the podcast, we have a chat with Sandra Matthews,
Chair of Rural Women, New Zealand and local Community Legend.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
We yarn about engendering, volunteering from a young age, developing
identity as a woman, coming onto a farm from outside,
depression and anxiety, and also leadership pathways.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
This session, Sandra delivers some stellar advice on governance, leading
yourself and leading others. Sandra's pretty special to both Claire
and I and we really hope that you enjoy this
chat as much as us.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
So.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Sandra Matthews, the woman, the myth, the legend. We have
her today on the.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Podcast and we are so grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We are very excited to delve into her journey. So, Sandra,
tell us a little bit about your start when it
comes to who you are. What do we need to
know about you in terms of your background and how
you got into rural life as it stands?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Now, Wow, what an introduction, ladies. So I am an
Australian and married with my husband many years ago. Now
we've been together a long time. I grew up in
a little town called Golden which is in New South
Wales in Australia. It was all it is a Merino
(01:25):
pastoral area, a little town of about twenty five thousand people,
lots of history and beautiful buildings and it was the
first inland city of Australia. So it's a really cool
little city from my mum and dad. Dad was a policeman,
very staunch policeman, and mum was a primary school teacher.
Had a really wonderful childhood, loving family, beautiful people around us,
(01:48):
and lots of volunteer work. Mum and dad volunteered for
lines and sports clubs and donated a time to lots
of causes. We grew up with a lot of sport.
I was a club's mem person from a very early age.
I think they had me swimming when I was about
two or three make sure I didn't drown, I think
was the main objective for that. I played hockey, cricket.
(02:11):
My dad was an Ossie rules legend, so they moved
around with the police, so he was playing Ossie rules
in sport every time and every town that they went to,
so that's how they met people, which is that connection
into the local community. My brother played rugby and my
mates played rugby league, so all the weekends when I
was growing up were sport and right into our late
(02:34):
teens and early twenties as well, I had a wonderful
circle of friends. We rode our bikes around to each
other's houses. Living in town, got into a lot of mischief,
I will say, still get into a bit of mischief occasionally,
but really thankful in those days we didn't have social media.
It would have been really embarrassing I think from some
(02:54):
of the mischiefs we used to get up to. We're
still connected today. So most of us have known each
other for about I was since we're about six, I suppose,
so that's you know, it's only about twenty years ago.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Of course, hardly any time at all.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Not at all. Yeah, So in all honesty, it's around
about fifty odd years, so it's been a long time
we've known each other. We try to meet once a
year or twice every second year to get together, mostly
in Australia, so it means me traveling over there. But
we've got a really great connection and a bond that
goes right back to when we were little little children.
(03:28):
I was a rebellious teenager and my dad told me
when I had children, they pay me back. I was really,
really lucky because both my children are wonderful children and adults,
and I was very relieved I didn't become me. They
didn't become me when I was a teenager. Yeah. So
I think my childhood was great. Just lots of volunteering
(03:50):
from my parents, and I learned about community and giving
back at a really young age, and I think that's
what set me up for my future life. Really.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, And that's such a core foundation, isn't it. I
believe that if you have that exposure at a really
young age, it sometimes can become engendered into you. And
that's clearly what's happened here. So from rebellious team to
a sometimes rebellious adult. Meeting Anne along the way, tell
(04:22):
us a little bit about that that journey. How did
you meet mister Matthews.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, so I went overseas and I think was about
twenty four. On my OE, I sort of got to
a point in my life at home that I was
a little bit unsettled and didn't really know what to do.
So my brother was living in London. He said come
to London. So I jumped on a plane in my
own and went deer, went traveling around, went through Europe
and on a top deck tour and met a couple
(04:49):
of really cool Ossie chips and managed to talk one
of them into backpacking around Europe again game with me,
and we ended up in two Key at Gallipolee and
we're just chanting at a camping ground and met Ian
and his camper van full of keewee's. So we basically
met at Gallipoli at Antak Cove, which is really cool,
(05:10):
and then we kept meeting because we were backpacking, my
friend and I we kept running into this comby van
of people and as you do, you have a lot
of fun. And we had a lot of fun and
ended up moving back into together in London when we
went back to work during the off traveling period. So yeah,
so we spent a couple of years then traveling through
(05:31):
Africa together. We did six months through Eastern Africa together,
went back to London again, worked for another winter period
and then went to Canada and the US and then
traveled back home. So yeah, it was funny because when
we met my friend Nikki that I was traveling with
said to me, you're going to marry that man. I said,
I'm never getting married you were having children, not going
(05:52):
to do that. But yeah, he's the love of my
life and I'm very lucky to have met him while
I was traveling.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Ah wow, that sounds so fortuored us. Where you met
obviously at anzac Cove as part of your travel and
meeting a Kiwi no list. That's so cool, and so
you had the experience you're traversed around the world together.
How did you what happened there? How did you come
(06:18):
back to the farm.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question and I think which
my story will evolve in a couple of years. Once
we got married. But if I had a terrible thing
to say, but if I had have thought deeply about
what I was doing, I may have thought twice and said,
why don't you come to Australia. I don't think that
now because my journey has evolved over the years we've
(06:42):
been married. But back then it was pretty tough when
we got married. So I came back to Australia for
a year and worked and set up and worked for
Saint George Bank, set up a new branch in Canberra,
and then I had a year here and then we
got married and I moved back to New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah, and I believe that there was a coin conversation
about you moving back to New Zealand and you you
also still showed a bit of a rebellious streak in
that respect.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yes, I should have got a contract signed back then. Clear.
So when we got married, I said, Ian, right, I'll
come for thirty years. We'll live in New Zealand, We'll
have our life there for thirty years. But when we
hit thirty years of marriage, we are moving back to
Australia to live. And you know, I didn't think thirty
years was a long way way back in those days.
But in actual fate, we've been married thirty three years
(07:28):
this year.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, he hasn't held up as into the bag and
we're going to have to We're going to.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Have to hit him up about that. Oh I don't
think so.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Hello had a contract for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Hey, Now, I'm just really interested in the early days
of your farming journey because it's not something that sort
of we've talked about a lot in the past. But
I know as a young couple, you know, starting a
family and effectively also starting a business. You're on the land,
You're up against weather events, you're up against high intrast rates,
(08:06):
prices are variable. What's that early day? Well, what are
those early days of farming looked like for you guys.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, so when we got married, I wasn't involved in
the farm at all, and we bought the farm back
in two thousand and three. Yeah, two thousand and three.
The first year going into farming was excellent. We were
coming out of really good prices for beef and sheep,
and then basically well fan excuse expression, we commodity prices
(08:35):
went down. We had three years of drought, and we
were heavily indebted because we just bought the farm. We
paid EANs parents out quite a bit of money through
the bank, and it was tough. We had two little children,
We had a farm that we just purchased, and we
were also paying part of the land lease back to
(08:56):
Ian's parents, so we had a commitment there as well.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Interest rates went up to I think we were up
to about eleven and a half per cent to at
one point on our term lending, and our overdraft was
pretty horrible, so we just knuckled down. I actually went
back to work off farm to have a bit of
income of FUM. It wasn't great, but it was a
job that was only two minutes down the road and
I loved it. It was really great. It was tough,
(09:23):
really tough, but we just made sure we did things together,
that we talked to one another. We made sure we
went to things like Beef and them workshop days to
give us some information about how we get through. We
bought our trusted team around us, so we made sure
the account was then with us, that the bank was
in with us, and we talked to neighbors that have
(09:43):
been through it and other people that had been through
that before. We were just Ian was just cleaning out
the office and he was pulling out some papers from
those early days and we were getting seventeen dollars for
use at the so yards.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Oh wow, yeah, wow. I think everything that you just
talked about now is so applicable today. You know, given
the environment that the sheep prices are in right now,
the market fundamentals, you know, those practical tips that you
just talked about around talking to each other, getting off farm,
bringing your trusted team around you are so appropriate for
(10:17):
right now and where we are but I'm interested, Sandra
in your how your identity has been shaped and it's changed,
particularly with regards to those early stages of your life
in New Zealand, because from what you've told us, you know,
you had your urban upbringing and also for your early
(10:39):
adult life. You then had a banking career and you
flipped almost one eighty into moving into a quite isolated area.
You've got a couple of small kiddies, and you've now
got a farm that you own. How did you find
a place for yourself amongst this new setting.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That is a really great question, Emma, and you know
you were always full of great questions and wants, you know,
challenge me. So really interesting part of my journey and
I think that's what shaped me today is when we
first started the family and I was a stay at
home mum and Emma was born in ninety five and
(11:19):
Jamie was born in ninety seven, so I had two
little children home. At that point. We hadn't bought into
the farm, and you know, after a little bit of time,
I started getting itchy feet mentally. I wasn't involved in
the farm, had no place on the farm, wasn't engaging
my very overactive brain, which you two of the recipients
so occasionally, and it was really taking a toll on me.
(11:43):
So I had gone into the doctor for something with
the children and she looked at me and she said,
how are you? And I burst into tears. She knew
me very well and she read straightaway something was wrong.
So she helped me throw and she diagnosed depression. And
in those days, it was really hard. It was bloody
hard as an isolated mum, you know. And there were
(12:05):
other mums around, which was great, but for a person
that brain is react overly active anyway, and you've come
from a professional sitting, it was really tough. So I
kept asking myself, I should be happy. I've got a
loving husband, I've got two childre gorgeous children. And here
I was sad and crying to myself, but doing it
behind closed doors. I wasn't talking about it with other people.
(12:29):
What was happening inside me. And you know, Ian was like, well,
you know, you should be happy. Everything's okay. And the
understanding around mental health and depression back then was we
don't talk about it. I'm so thankful these days we're
starting to and we're doing it more so. It really
wasn't about anyone else. It was about me, and I
had to realize that that I lost my identity. And
(12:51):
it's a really common challenge with young rural mums and
professional mums that are isolated on farm or in a
rural area, leave their careers and families for them love
of their life, which is what we do. Really, I've
only mentioned this depression one or two times. I think
once I lost you Menicum when we were talking about
(13:12):
something and I really, yeah, it's a journey I haven't
talked a lot about but I am going to start
talking more about it. I had closest friends at the
same time that we're going through the same experiences, and
we talk about it a bit these days and look
back and we understand it's really okay to medicate and
build and understand that you get through the tough times
(13:34):
with help. So seek that help out and talk to
your doctor and medicate because it does help you get through. Obviously,
I was on medication I think probably two years. Some
of my other friends were on for maybe teen, So
everybody's journey is different. I had some counseling at the
time which helped as well, and the people around me
that were going through the same experiences. We helped each other.
(13:57):
So I think the main thing from back then I
got was that things will improve if you acknowledge you
have a problem and seek out the help. It wasn't
a great time in my life and my poor kids.
You know. My son says me, Oh, you know, I
could cause your post natal depression. It's like, no, Jamie,
you didn't. It was about me and not anybody else.
I lost my identity.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Yeah, And I think it's really hard to talk about
that kind of concept or that feeling of I don't know,
for me, like maybe being a bit weak or not
doing something that you've said you're going to do, or
sort of yeah, having this kind of outwardly positive life
and just going what's wrong with me? Why am I
feeling this way? So yeah, I really commend you and
(14:40):
thank you for talking about that. And I think probably
for me, but probably because it mirrors maybe my own mother,
this idea of community and the volunteer kind of work
and connection. I want to pack up on the thread
of that because I think this time that we're talking
about is maybe sometime we started to get more into
(15:03):
that kind of community space, and then that as I
understand it was probably a little bit of a seed
for some of the leadership journey that you've had as well.
So do you want to talk a little bit about
that community that was built around you in a few
different context and then how that feeds into the roles
that you have today.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah. Sure. The job that I sort of mentioned a
little bit before was a job at eastwood A Larboretum,
which is the National Arboretum of New Zealand. They have
a big volunteer base and that's what drives the success
of the arboretum. So I set up the office there
and worked through the administration, management and that sort of
stuff over the years, and I watched what these people
(15:45):
were doing and were really in awe of what they
were doing in the time they were spending. And you know,
thinking back to my own childhood, the value and that
if your value is around community and supporting other people
to really build things or to feel valued, that sort
of resonated with me really well, and I think that's
(16:07):
where the journey started for me. It was a long journey,
you know. I volunteered obviously on the local playgroup group
and the board of trustees at school. Those sorts of things.
So those were the starts of that journey. I never
really thought it was a journey into leadership or journey
into governance. Back then, it was just you do what
you do for the local community. So yeah, but I
(16:30):
think the New Zealand side of my community driven life,
I suppose it's what you call it, really came from
those early days at Eastward Hill and watching what these
amazing volunteers were doing and how they just really got
in boots and all. And I think that's what really
sets aside rural communities from other communities.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
To tell you the truth, rural communities are very unique
and there's so many positive aspects to them, and we've
talked about them a lot on this podcast. Rural communities
can also be quite challenging, particularly when you are in
perhaps a volunteer space and you're trying to either lead
(17:11):
by example or instigate change. Has there been a situation
that you've had to delicately navigate where there has been
divide amongst that rural community, and how have you managed
to weave your way through that.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
That's a great question. I have to be a bit
delicate here, obviously, because my rural community is my real
community that there's always challenges with volunteers and with paid stuff,
and I think it's actually helping people understand the why
decisions are made. So for me, I always go back
(17:49):
to do they understand the reasoning behind us this decision?
Do they understand why we've made it and the future
focus of that decision? And there is always going to
be challenges and obstacles along the way between volunteers, paid
stuff or just between volunteers, and it's about communication supporting
(18:11):
the people around you to have an understanding around that.
I'm not sure if that answered your question though, em No.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
It doesn't look. I appreciate that you're still living in
the community now, so I'm not I wouldn't want to
put you in any predicament at all, but it's something
that we've spoken about before in various different ways of
when you are trying to lead or make change or
just I guess train action deliver action in a leadership space,
(18:43):
sometimes people just don't necessarily join the journey with you.
And what you've talked about there is how you get
buy in and why those decisions are made. So that's
really helpful. I'm sure for some of our listeners who
might be dealing with, you know, challenges within the school
board of trustees for example, or are the more community
(19:05):
catchment challenges right now.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things in there.
So you're always going to have people that are going
to be those early adopters, the ones that do jump
on that front bus and off they go one hundred
miles an hour and things will get done. You've got
the people in the middle that are a little bit measured.
They want to understand a bit more about it so
they can make a really measured decision. And then you've
got the ones, you know, the old analogy as the
(19:30):
bus has turned the wrong way. Some people you can
move on that forward journey and some people you can't.
So it really depends where you want to put your
energy in time to the best benefit of the outcomes
that you want or for the organization that you're dealing with.
So you can't keep everybody happy, and I think we
sometimes we try to keep everybody happy, but really it's
(19:53):
about talking to the ones that will move forward with
you and making sure that you're looking after them. You
can still look after the ones that are on the
backward facing bus, but you just don't put as much
energy into that because you know that you have to
do some good. You have to move things forward for
the benefit of everybody, and I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
And I had a speaking to a CEO of a
big firm the other day and she said to me,
quite often it's considered success of fifty percent of the
people want to come with you. And I think that
just provided a little bit of perspective around that sort
of innate desire to be liked and to want sort
of people to follow the vision that you have. And
(20:38):
it's not always going to be popular when you need
to make tough decisions.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And you're in a leadership position to make those tough decisions,
and sometimes it feels like you've got a target on
your back, but that's what you've been elected to do.
If you're in an elected position, and that's what you're
if you've decided to go into leadership. You have to
understand you have good times and not so good times,
but as long as you know what you're talking about
(21:02):
and you're benefiting your stakeholders, your members, the people that
you're there to represent. I think if you stick to
your values and what those people are wanting as well.
You know, I think you get through, so I fifty percent.
Every organization is different, right, So I think fifty percent
is maybe for me would be a lower line of measurement.
(21:26):
I would really prefer to be able to get more
people on those two front buses and the one at
the end going the other way.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, pivoting slightly now, because you know, our journey
together has been with Rural Women New Zealand, and you're
the current board chair for us at Rural Women New Zealand.
I'm really interested. You've now had a journey of sort
of five years or so with the organization and we've
(21:56):
come across a lot of challenges in that time. But
I'm really interested in your thoughts on what's coming up.
So what are the challenges out there for our rural
Women at the moment and sort of what can we
do about those collectively, because I think as an organization,
we obviously want to always be looking at the benefits
(22:17):
that we can bring to rural women and children, but
also how do we kind of activate others to be
part of that journey as well.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, that's a really loaded Christian Clayer a really great
one and I think, you know, as far as real
women New Zealand goes and rural women in our communities,
Rural women New Zealand has been around for earlie hundred years.
You know, a lot have changed in that hundred years,
and every time during that period that's always changed. There's
(22:48):
always changes that have to work in an organization and
be an impact what happens in an organization. But you know,
for a hundred years, the rural women that have led
this organization and been involved in the organization have done
really well in doing that. They've always changed, They've always
moving forwards, they've always supported communities. I think there's been
(23:09):
quicker change in probably the last ten to fifteen years,
and change is moving very very quickly, and I think
for rural women New Zealand, we need to be able
to come up with solutions a lot quicker than we
have in the past. Our real communities are full of
(23:30):
amazing women, our real women New Zealand is full of
amazing women. But our real communities are also full of
amazing women out there that are doing incredible things, and
they're not connected into real women New Zealand. So I
think there's a synergy between what other groups, what other
organizations are doing out there, and what reural Women's doing.
(23:52):
So why are we doubling up there? Why are we
all doing very similar things when we could do it together?
And I think some perspective of a Royal Women in
New Zealand my personal view, this is not the boards
view and it's not you know, it may not be
members of view. Hopefully it will be some. But from
my personal point of view, we need to come together
more and support each other and do it together, hopefully
(24:15):
under the banner of one organization instead of everybody doing
their own little bits and pieces. We can be stronger
if we come together and do it together. If we're separated,
it's not as efficient. There's a financial resources that are
getting doubled up. There's all these and human resources getting
doubled up. So if we can come together and do
it together under that one umbrella of Royal Women Museum,
(24:37):
I think we'll have a stronger organization and a stronger
my Heimi community and a stronger rural community.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, it just makes sense. I mean, it's utilization of
resources and it's something that we talk about all the
time across the primary sectors that need to collaborate and
communicate together to achieve similar outcomes that are a win
win situation. And Rural Woman is no different to that
in the sense that there are a lot of different
(25:04):
organizations out there, we're all doing similar things, so how
can we collaborate to the best advantage of each other?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Exactly, Sandra.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
One of the things that you have been really a
really big advocate for in my journey and also clear
as journey, is around how to press the no button,
And in particular, we both still have the little no key.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Then we got that for Christmas two years ago. That
was our gift from Sandra was a we no button.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
That's right, which we actually and I still press quite
often just to remind myself where my boundaries are. But
the question for you is how do you set your boundaries?
How do you activate the no button? How do you
know when to push it?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I haven't been so
good the last eighteen months at pushing the no button.
And I've been sitting back the last couple of months
and reflecting on that, because you know, it's like you
can work on these strategies and hand them to other
people like I have with you too with your little
clearing and no button, but it's actually putting them into
(26:15):
practice yourself, and that is challenging. And I won't say
I'm perfect, that's for sure, because you know that I've
extend myself in a lot of areas. So I've really
reflected on where I've been sitting, gone back to where
I need to spend my time and for myself and
for my faro and for my local community. And I
(26:36):
pushed the note but myself on a few things recently,
and I'm very proud of myself because they were very
difficult decisions. But I went back to the same thing
that I've used previously is does this meet my value?
Am I happy doing this? Does it bring me joy?
Do I have time for this? And that's sort of
(26:57):
the criteria I used in a way, And I got
to the point that I didn't want to leave, but
I knew I had to leave. I had to press
that no button. So, yeah, it takes a lot of energy,
it takes a lot of time. But for me, I
always go back to my values and what I really
want to do and get out of my own life.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Yeah, so it sounds like sorry to interrupt, just to
summarize that is you took the time. You take the
time to reflect. So this is the critical part of
your success is actually taking that sacred time, putting it
(27:39):
aside and doing that the deep work that comes with
first of all identifying your values and then sitting with
yourself to work out whether it does the potential opportunity
does bring you joy consideration of time, planning, etc. And
that's just really hit home for me as the importance
of self reflection.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And that's one thing I do a lot. I think
my coaching training and the coaching I have done in
the past. When you're a coach, you tend to, well,
I do this is what my good I do. I
tend to coach myself in my head. I have other
coaches that you know, people I talk to, but I
coach myself and I say, and that's what I do.
I use that as a self reflection and is it
(28:22):
really somewhere I want to be. I love a challenge,
as you both know. I love a challenge. I love
getting stuck in. I love getting my hands dirty, and
I love making a difference for my hani and our
real communities and our primary industries. Absolutely love it. And
it floats my bow. But sometimes you just have to
reflect and say, yeah, it's not doing it anymore. I
(28:44):
need to step away and let somebody else take that
mental And that's where I'm sort of being lately. Yeah,
and I think the cyclones have made a big difference
there too. You know, it's been eighteen months of a
lot of graft and it's taken its toll on a
lot of people. And I think that's self reflection there
has helped make those decisions. So yeah, so I hope
(29:04):
you use that more because it is a great tool.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
It is a great tool, and it's something that I'm
trying to do a lot more of as well. I
think the challenges for high achieving women is not everything
is dressed up as a good challenge that's suited to
you for the season that you're in. And as a
high achieving woman, sometimes you have to rewire your brain
(29:28):
to think about the opportunity and the framework that you
just presented.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, and it's been patient, right. I've had a couple
of conversations last few weeks with younger women like yourselves
that are saying, you know, how do I get into
governance or how do I get my first role or
those sorts of things, and I get saying be patient
and be very aware that if you're going to go
into an area of governance, if that's your journey, make
(29:55):
sure that governance space that you're looking at meets your values,
make sure you've got time to do it, and make
sure it's something you want to do, because governance is
not easy. There's a lot of working governance, and you know,
sometimes you've got to target on your back and sometimes
you die. But yeah, that self reflection is and just
looking at what you're going to do in the future.
(30:16):
It's really important to have a good handle on that.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
One thing that I'm reflecting on hearing that is when
you're younger and you're in your first sort of ten
years of your career, you actually spend a lot of
time saying yes yes to the opportunity, Yes I can
do that, Yes I'd love to help with that project.
And there's actually a period where there's a change because
you actually start to get more opportunities than you have
(30:42):
time energy, and that meet your values, right, So you
actually then have to start saying, Okay, this one meets
my values and this one doesn't. All this one's working
towards my overall outcome and this one isn't. And I'm
just reflecting on that pivot point, you know, like what
does that look like? And then how do you start
to develop that really strong intention around what you do?
(31:06):
So used to.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I think clear it's about creating a plan, being patient
at the start and creating a plan unless they're help
if you're not really sure where to get started, unless
they're help with others. Yeah, and take your time. It's
not a sprint to the finish. It's a long journey
of experience, and talk to people that are involved in
that too, because they will give you if they're honest
(31:31):
with you, they'll give you the warts and all. They'll
give you the good bets, they'll give you the not
so great bets. But it is so rewarding if you
find the right positions.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Yeah, and we appreciate you for all of the feedback
that you've given us over the years as well. You
mentioned before the cyclones and obviously that had a really
big impact on your local community. And I was just
pondering earlier today. I feel like the story of the
cyclones was sure lived in the media and in terms
(32:02):
of the reporting of it, and how that kind of
has looked. What is it that the people of tait
Arfaiti and sort of the East coast want the rest
of New Zealand to know, Well, what's happening out there
still on the ground, what should we be aware of
and where can we kind of still help out.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, that's an interesting one. I've actually had some conversations
with a few ministry people recently about that as well.
There's still people hurting out there. There's still people that
don't have their houses aspected, or houses or businesses. I
think the cyclones come through, people have gone, people have come,
(32:45):
and there's been lots of support going to certain areas,
the soundbites of the the videos of their all that
destruction and helps gone into certain areas, but there's other
areas that haven't received as much help, and you know
there's a bit of angst around that. There's still people
that are behind areas that haven't got bridges to get
(33:06):
to their farms and things, especially in our area, and
those bridges might be five or six years away. So
you know, there's one I think it was in the
media on seven sharp or something last year. Sometimes one
of our nurse friends is actually in a kayak going
across the river to get to a vehicle so she
can drive to the job in town at the local hospital.
(33:28):
Those guys are not going to have a bridge that
I understand. I haven't heard any any further information on
that recently, but they will. They'll be a long way
away from getting a bridge. So there's people are still
out there hurting. I mean, even our own farm. We're
only probably halfway through repairing the damage on farm. Our house.
Cyclone damage has just been fixed at the front of
(33:49):
the house and now we're just waiting for the rest
to be done on the other side of the house.
There's people still working through that. Money is getting tight,
you know, obviously in royal communities. Money is tight anyway
of pricing and everything at the moment, in the cost
of living, in the cost of expenses on farm. So
I think it's actually just realizing this is a really
long journey for the east coast of the North Island,
(34:12):
and it is for North London some other areas as well,
specifically Hawkes Bay, terrua tidarsity in some areas of Wairapa
that have been hit by the cyclone quite badly too,
So it is a long journey and just remember that
people are still struggling out there emotionally and with their
financial capacity as well.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Such good reminders from your views where you are right
now and the fact that you are seeing first ten
some of those challenges. So thanks so much for sharing that.
I'm going to segue into what is possibly a left
field question, but I'm really interested in your answer, Sandra,
what are you genuinely most proud of?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Oh, yes, to see thee I am most proud of
my family, my two children, Emma and Jamie. Bringing them
both in the world for me wasn't an easy journey.
I had Caesars and a few other issues with both
of them. Yeah, And as I said earlier, I'm Australia
at the moment just for a few days with them
(35:19):
and it just fills my heart to be with them.
So I think my children and the fact that I'm
still married after thirty three years or something, that's something
to be proud of, proud of, I think. I think
career wise, the thing I'm most proud about is being
approached by Rural Women New Zealand to lead the National
(35:40):
Board as board ch here. Career wise, that's probably a
highlight for me. Yeah, So I think those are the
two things that I'm most proudest about.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
It's funny because I love that you talked about your
post natal depression and the challenges that you faced, and
how you're so proud of your family and raising them
and having a wonderful marriage with that being the base
(36:11):
that you started from, And how you just talked about
rural women and the opportunity that has been given to
you to lead and you're doing such a fabulous job.
Because when I first put my hand up for the
board role, I was at the same point that you
just described. So I look back and I think I
(36:33):
should have been medicated at that particular time. I wasn't
for various reasons, some of which was COVID nineteen. But
I am just so proud of you for starting to
talk about that journey and those common will be in
(36:55):
that position right now, who will know, hopefully from this interview,
that there is light ain the end of the tunnel,
and all those practical tips that you just gave and
rattled off the top of your head like it was nothing,
they will be so meaningful for someone.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I hope. So, because that's how we learn, isn't it
from others. That's how we grow. It's from listening to
other people. And if I can help at least one
person understand that it's going to be okay. You know that.
Really I don't know. It disheartens me, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I'm going to ask a broad question too, because
you know, we're facing quite a lot of challenges in
the rural space at the moment from a primary industry,
export perspective, and social license and you know our.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
I suppose meeting emissions targets and things like that. There's
a lot of challenges in that space. There's a lot
of challenges with global commodities and moving things in the
economic space as well. But what do you think is
out there in the ether for the future of agriculture
(38:07):
and New Zealand in terms of what things might we
need to do better, what things could we capitalize on?
Is there anything out there for you that stands out
that's sort of saying, hey, here's a big change, we
just need to be brave enough to grasp it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
A great question. Clear, I think we've got a bit
bogged down at the moment in the doom and gloom.
I think there's a really bright future for our prime
industries in this country. I think that people need to
start thinking a little bit more outside the square. Yeah,
I really do think food.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
I'm involved in sheep and sheep and beef right, so
I probably talk more to be because I don't know
a lot about dairy. Only what I know arogress from
being at different functions and reading. But I think people
will always need food. For farmers in New Zealand, I
think we need to be realistic to understand that consumers
(39:07):
just want to know that if we're growing their food
and they're going to put it on their table, that
it's done a sustainable way. Sustainable looks different for different people.
You know. We hear the old adage, Oh, we've always
done it like this, so and we're the best in
the world, so we don't need to change. Well that's
all well and good, but yes we do need to change.
We're farmers. We've always changed. We've always adjusted our way
(39:30):
of working, We've always adjusted what we do. We've changed
with genetics, always changed with different cropping or whatever it is.
There's always change. It's constant and I think we need
to open our minds as farmers that there are other
ways that we can do things so that we are
more sustainable. You know, there's only little things on farms
like not putting your rubbish in a big pit and
(39:52):
bearing it with a digger, those sorts of things, right,
they're little things that can help us change taking your
plastic containers to the recyclers, as long as we know
where that recycling is going and it's not going to
a third world country. Yeah, I think as farm as
we really need to open up our minds, listen to
people are doing something different and just say hey, we
(40:12):
could actually try that. And we're pretty good at that
at a top sort of twenty percentage stage. But it's
the ones in the middle that I think, Okay, let's change.
Let's just take them on the journey. Work out how
to take them on a journey, which is always a
difficult process for levybodies. I think, is Okay, how do
(40:33):
we get the people that are not going to these
workshops or these meetings and learning more about how they
can change and what they can do to improve their businesses?
And I know Beef and them are working on that
at the moment and there will be changes there which
hopefully we'll encourage more people to be there and to learn.
But we just need to learn from other people. Look
what other countries are doing, and some really great articles,
(40:56):
great information coming back from other countries what they are doing.
And people come back from me enough fields and they say, wow,
other countries are so far in advance of us and
doing certain things. And a lot of it is in sustainability.
We don't have to plant trees all over our farm
to be sustainable. We just have to change a practice
at a time and be on the.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Journey, incremental steps along the way.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, and I think at the moment it's a bit
overwhelming for people. You know, all the emissions talk and
hey when all the things that have happened in the
last few years that haven't been positive have put people's
minds into a negative mindset. So we need to work
on actually improving getting that back into a Yes, we
can tackle this together, and we can improve what we do.
(41:39):
We can always improve what we do. You know, I
look out onto our farm and look at the damage
from the cyclones. In a lot of places there were
no trees because it was you know, everything was cleared,
I don't know, fifty or sixty years ago. And Ian
and I are madly trying to plant as much as
we can, but with limited resources financially, that's very difficult
as well.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, but it's the journey, right, and let's embrace that
journey and embrace other people's different ideas and get on
with it. Be open minded and learn from others that
are doing really good things.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Open mindedness, embrace the journey and just get on with it.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Great succinct actionable points there.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
So, Sandra, you are a busy lady. You won the
inaugural Beef and Lamb New Zealand Rural Champion Award in
twenty twenty two. You're also an Agmard scholar along with
being the chair of a Woman New Zealand, and it
sounds as though you've got lots of other balls in
the area as well. Based on our previous conversation, what
do you think the next few years might hold for you,
(42:42):
both personally and professionally.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, that's it was an interesting question around that because
for me, I've just been trying to get through the
last eighteen months to see the truth. But I think
for me in the next twelve months personally, it's getting
a bit more time with my very patient husband. Often
I feel sorry for him as they come up with
some crazy ideas. He just shakes his head says yeah, okay,
(43:07):
And he's my biggest champion and I'll be lost without him.
So I do need to spend a bit more time
with him and value him a little bit more than
what I have in the last eighteen months because I've
put a lot of time into other people and other roles.
One of the big things from me is that the
elections for Real Women are coming up at the end
of the year and our gorgeous president and most effective President, Jill,
(43:31):
is needing to step down because his term is finished.
So I've been encouraged by quite a few people around
the Motu to stand as president. So I am going
to do that because I think Real Women's such an
amazing organization. We've got incredible Wahmi within the organization. But
I'm also excited about the opportunity of going out to
(43:55):
so many more amazing Wahini around the moto and bringing
them into the and having them part of the organization
to build it for the future. So the other thing
too is to reinstate my health. So my health and
wellbeing journey over the last d eightien months has been
really poor, and I'll own that I'll stand up and
put my hand up. Didn't push my note, but enough
(44:17):
ladies during the last stadium months. But yeah, I need
to look after myself a bit more and you know,
get some exercised into my daily routine.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah, what you've said there is really exciting. You know,
I'm very optimistic about what I think the women of
rural New Zealand can do. And you know, we're also
about to celebrate the centenary of one hundred years of
Real Women New Zealand, or the Women's Division of the
(44:46):
Farmer's Union as it once was, and that's an opportunity
as well to look at where we've come and then
set that sort of vision for the next hundred years,
which is a pretty special thing to be a part of.
So it's yeah, it's really wonderful to hear that you're
looking to step into that space and put your hand up.
(45:08):
I have the privilege, as I often do, of wrapping
this up today and it's with somewhat actually quite an
emotional feeling that I have because you've been a part
of both of our governance. Juniors You've been an incredible
advocate and supporter for both of us. You've taught us
so much about how to have courageous conversations and advocate
(45:35):
for ourselves and make sure that we stand up and
be respectful in things that we say and do, and
our governance juniors would not be the same without you.
You're also an incredible community champion. I think if there
was a Champion award to be given it each year,
it should be given to you for standing up and
(45:57):
being a real advocate in that space as well. And
I was really proud to write a letter recently as
to the effect that you've had on my life and
my world, and I know that I'm one of many.
So yeah, You're an incredible human, Sandra, and we're very
very grateful to have you in our corner, as I'm
sure many of many of the other women are as well,
(46:20):
and we really really respect and value your time. Today.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Wow, thank you, Claire, just about let me cry. Thank
you so much for those beautiful words. I really do
appreciate it. And you know, I just do what I
do because I love doing it, and I love supporting
other women, other people around the country and internationally as well.
But I just love what I do, and if I
can make the difference in one person's life, I just
(46:45):
that's my purpose in life, right And yes, so thank
you for those lovely words.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Thank you so much. I wholly endorse what Claire has
just said and we can't wait to see what comes
nixt for you. Sandra Matthews, thank you so much,
Black Heels and track de Wheels.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
The Rural Women and z podcast hosted by Emma Higgins
and Claire Williamson.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Today on the podcast, we have a chat with Sandra Matthews,
Chair of Rural Women, New Zealand and local Community Legend.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
We yarn about engendering, volunteering from a young age, developing
identity as a woman, coming onto a farm from outside,
depression and anxiety, and also leadership pathways.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
This session, Sandra delivers some stellar advice on governance, leading
yourself and leading others. Sandra's pretty special to both Claire
and I and we really hope that you enjoy this
chat as much as us.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
So.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Sandra Matthews, the woman, the myth, the legend. We have
her today on the.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Podcast and we are so grateful for that.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
We are very excited to delve into her journey. So, Sandra,
tell us a little bit about your start when it
comes to who you are. What do we need to
know about you in terms of your background and how
you got into rural life as it stands?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Now, Wow, what an introduction, ladies. So I am an
Australian and married with my husband many years ago. Now
we've been together a long time. I grew up in
a little town called Golden which is in New South
Wales in Australia. It was all it is a Merino
(01:25):
pastoral area, a little town of about twenty five thousand people,
lots of history and beautiful buildings and it was the
first inland city of Australia. So it's a really cool
little city from my mum and dad. Dad was a policeman,
very staunch policeman, and mum was a primary school teacher.
Had a really wonderful childhood, loving family, beautiful people around us,
(01:48):
and lots of volunteer work. Mum and dad volunteered for
lines and sports clubs and donated a time to lots
of causes. We grew up with a lot of sport.
I was a club's mem person from a very early age.
I think they had me swimming when I was about
two or three make sure I didn't drown, I think
was the main objective for that. I played hockey, cricket.
(02:11):
My dad was an Ossie rules legend, so they moved
around with the police, so he was playing Ossie rules
in sport every time and every town that they went to,
so that's how they met people, which is that connection
into the local community. My brother played rugby and my
mates played rugby league, so all the weekends when I
was growing up were sport and right into our late
(02:34):
teens and early twenties as well, I had a wonderful
circle of friends. We rode our bikes around to each
other's houses. Living in town, got into a lot of mischief,
I will say, still get into a bit of mischief occasionally,
but really thankful in those days we didn't have social media.
It would have been really embarrassing I think from some
(02:54):
of the mischiefs we used to get up to. We're
still connected today. So most of us have known each
other for about I was since we're about six, I suppose,
so that's you know, it's only about twenty years ago.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Of course, hardly any time at all.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Not at all. Yeah, So in all honesty, it's around
about fifty odd years, so it's been a long time
we've known each other. We try to meet once a
year or twice every second year to get together, mostly
in Australia, so it means me traveling over there. But
we've got a really great connection and a bond that
goes right back to when we were little little children.
(03:28):
I was a rebellious teenager and my dad told me
when I had children, they pay me back. I was really,
really lucky because both my children are wonderful children and adults,
and I was very relieved I didn't become me. They
didn't become me when I was a teenager. Yeah. So
I think my childhood was great. Just lots of volunteering
(03:50):
from my parents, and I learned about community and giving
back at a really young age, and I think that's
what set me up for my future life. Really.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, And that's such a core foundation, isn't it. I
believe that if you have that exposure at a really
young age, it sometimes can become engendered into you. And
that's clearly what's happened here. So from rebellious team to
a sometimes rebellious adult. Meeting Anne along the way, tell
(04:22):
us a little bit about that that journey. How did
you meet mister Matthews.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, so I went overseas and I think was about
twenty four. On my OE, I sort of got to
a point in my life at home that I was
a little bit unsettled and didn't really know what to do.
So my brother was living in London. He said come
to London. So I jumped on a plane in my
own and went deer, went traveling around, went through Europe
and on a top deck tour and met a couple
(04:49):
of really cool Ossie chips and managed to talk one
of them into backpacking around Europe again game with me,
and we ended up in two Key at Gallipolee and
we're just chanting at a camping ground and met Ian
and his camper van full of keewee's. So we basically
met at Gallipoli at Antak Cove, which is really cool,
(05:10):
and then we kept meeting because we were backpacking, my
friend and I we kept running into this comby van
of people and as you do, you have a lot
of fun. And we had a lot of fun and
ended up moving back into together in London when we
went back to work during the off traveling period. So yeah,
so we spent a couple of years then traveling through
(05:31):
Africa together. We did six months through Eastern Africa together,
went back to London again, worked for another winter period
and then went to Canada and the US and then
traveled back home. So yeah, it was funny because when
we met my friend Nikki that I was traveling with
said to me, you're going to marry that man. I said,
I'm never getting married you were having children, not going
(05:52):
to do that. But yeah, he's the love of my
life and I'm very lucky to have met him while
I was traveling.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
Ah wow, that sounds so fortuored us. Where you met
obviously at anzac Cove as part of your travel and
meeting a Kiwi no list. That's so cool, and so
you had the experience you're traversed around the world together.
How did you what happened there? How did you come
(06:18):
back to the farm.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question and I think which
my story will evolve in a couple of years. Once
we got married. But if I had a terrible thing
to say, but if I had have thought deeply about
what I was doing, I may have thought twice and said,
why don't you come to Australia. I don't think that
now because my journey has evolved over the years we've
(06:42):
been married. But back then it was pretty tough when
we got married. So I came back to Australia for
a year and worked and set up and worked for
Saint George Bank, set up a new branch in Canberra,
and then I had a year here and then we
got married and I moved back to New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah, and I believe that there was a coin conversation
about you moving back to New Zealand and you you
also still showed a bit of a rebellious streak in
that respect.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yes, I should have got a contract signed back then. Clear.
So when we got married, I said, Ian, right, I'll
come for thirty years. We'll live in New Zealand, We'll
have our life there for thirty years. But when we
hit thirty years of marriage, we are moving back to
Australia to live. And you know, I didn't think thirty
years was a long way way back in those days.
But in actual fate, we've been married thirty three years
(07:28):
this year.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Yeah, he hasn't held up as into the bag and
we're going to have to We're going to.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Have to hit him up about that. Oh I don't
think so.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Hello had a contract for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Hey, Now, I'm just really interested in the early days
of your farming journey because it's not something that sort
of we've talked about a lot in the past. But
I know as a young couple, you know, starting a
family and effectively also starting a business. You're on the land,
You're up against weather events, you're up against high intrast rates,
(08:06):
prices are variable. What's that early day? Well, what are
those early days of farming looked like for you guys.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, so when we got married, I wasn't involved in
the farm at all, and we bought the farm back
in two thousand and three. Yeah, two thousand and three.
The first year going into farming was excellent. We were
coming out of really good prices for beef and sheep,
and then basically well fan excuse expression, we commodity prices
(08:35):
went down. We had three years of drought, and we
were heavily indebted because we just bought the farm. We
paid EANs parents out quite a bit of money through
the bank, and it was tough. We had two little children,
We had a farm that we just purchased, and we
were also paying part of the land lease back to
(08:56):
Ian's parents, so we had a commitment there as well.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Well.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Interest rates went up to I think we were up
to about eleven and a half per cent to at
one point on our term lending, and our overdraft was
pretty horrible, so we just knuckled down. I actually went
back to work off farm to have a bit of
income of FUM. It wasn't great, but it was a
job that was only two minutes down the road and
I loved it. It was really great. It was tough,
(09:23):
really tough, but we just made sure we did things together,
that we talked to one another. We made sure we
went to things like Beef and them workshop days to
give us some information about how we get through. We
bought our trusted team around us, so we made sure
the account was then with us, that the bank was
in with us, and we talked to neighbors that have
(09:43):
been through it and other people that had been through
that before. We were just Ian was just cleaning out
the office and he was pulling out some papers from
those early days and we were getting seventeen dollars for
use at the so yards.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Oh wow, yeah, wow. I think everything that you just
talked about now is so applicable today. You know, given
the environment that the sheep prices are in right now,
the market fundamentals, you know, those practical tips that you
just talked about around talking to each other, getting off farm,
bringing your trusted team around you are so appropriate for
(10:17):
right now and where we are but I'm interested, Sandra
in your how your identity has been shaped and it's changed,
particularly with regards to those early stages of your life
in New Zealand, because from what you've told us, you know,
you had your urban upbringing and also for your early
(10:39):
adult life. You then had a banking career and you
flipped almost one eighty into moving into a quite isolated area.
You've got a couple of small kiddies, and you've now
got a farm that you own. How did you find
a place for yourself amongst this new setting.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That is a really great question, Emma, and you know
you were always full of great questions and wants, you know,
challenge me. So really interesting part of my journey and
I think that's what shaped me today is when we
first started the family and I was a stay at
home mum and Emma was born in ninety five and
(11:19):
Jamie was born in ninety seven, so I had two
little children home. At that point. We hadn't bought into
the farm, and you know, after a little bit of time,
I started getting itchy feet mentally. I wasn't involved in
the farm, had no place on the farm, wasn't engaging
my very overactive brain, which you two of the recipients
so occasionally, and it was really taking a toll on me.
(11:43):
So I had gone into the doctor for something with
the children and she looked at me and she said,
how are you? And I burst into tears. She knew
me very well and she read straightaway something was wrong.
So she helped me throw and she diagnosed depression. And
in those days, it was really hard. It was bloody
hard as an isolated mum, you know. And there were
(12:05):
other mums around, which was great, but for a person
that brain is react overly active anyway, and you've come
from a professional sitting, it was really tough. So I
kept asking myself, I should be happy. I've got a
loving husband, I've got two childre gorgeous children. And here
I was sad and crying to myself, but doing it
behind closed doors. I wasn't talking about it with other people.
(12:29):
What was happening inside me. And you know, Ian was like, well,
you know, you should be happy. Everything's okay. And the
understanding around mental health and depression back then was we
don't talk about it. I'm so thankful these days we're
starting to and we're doing it more so. It really
wasn't about anyone else. It was about me, and I
had to realize that that I lost my identity. And
(12:51):
it's a really common challenge with young rural mums and
professional mums that are isolated on farm or in a
rural area, leave their careers and families for them love
of their life, which is what we do. Really, I've
only mentioned this depression one or two times. I think
once I lost you Menicum when we were talking about
(13:12):
something and I really, yeah, it's a journey I haven't
talked a lot about but I am going to start
talking more about it. I had closest friends at the
same time that we're going through the same experiences, and
we talk about it a bit these days and look
back and we understand it's really okay to medicate and
build and understand that you get through the tough times
(13:34):
with help. So seek that help out and talk to
your doctor and medicate because it does help you get through. Obviously,
I was on medication I think probably two years. Some
of my other friends were on for maybe teen, So
everybody's journey is different. I had some counseling at the
time which helped as well, and the people around me
that were going through the same experiences. We helped each other.
(13:57):
So I think the main thing from back then I
got was that things will improve if you acknowledge you
have a problem and seek out the help. It wasn't
a great time in my life and my poor kids.
You know. My son says me, Oh, you know, I
could cause your post natal depression. It's like, no, Jamie,
you didn't. It was about me and not anybody else.
I lost my identity.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Yeah, And I think it's really hard to talk about
that kind of concept or that feeling of I don't know,
for me, like maybe being a bit weak or not
doing something that you've said you're going to do, or
sort of yeah, having this kind of outwardly positive life
and just going what's wrong with me? Why am I
feeling this way? So yeah, I really commend you and
(14:40):
thank you for talking about that. And I think probably
for me, but probably because it mirrors maybe my own mother,
this idea of community and the volunteer kind of work
and connection. I want to pack up on the thread
of that because I think this time that we're talking
about is maybe sometime we started to get more into
(15:03):
that kind of community space, and then that as I
understand it was probably a little bit of a seed
for some of the leadership journey that you've had as well.
So do you want to talk a little bit about
that community that was built around you in a few
different context and then how that feeds into the roles
that you have today.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah. Sure. The job that I sort of mentioned a
little bit before was a job at eastwood A Larboretum,
which is the National Arboretum of New Zealand. They have
a big volunteer base and that's what drives the success
of the arboretum. So I set up the office there
and worked through the administration, management and that sort of
stuff over the years, and I watched what these people
(15:45):
were doing and were really in awe of what they
were doing in the time they were spending. And you know,
thinking back to my own childhood, the value and that
if your value is around community and supporting other people
to really build things or to feel valued, that sort
of resonated with me really well, and I think that's
(16:07):
where the journey started for me. It was a long journey,
you know. I volunteered obviously on the local playgroup group
and the board of trustees at school. Those sorts of things.
So those were the starts of that journey. I never
really thought it was a journey into leadership or journey
into governance. Back then, it was just you do what
you do for the local community. So yeah, but I
(16:30):
think the New Zealand side of my community driven life,
I suppose it's what you call it, really came from
those early days at Eastward Hill and watching what these
amazing volunteers were doing and how they just really got
in boots and all. And I think that's what really
sets aside rural communities from other communities.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
To tell you the truth, rural communities are very unique
and there's so many positive aspects to them, and we've
talked about them a lot on this podcast. Rural communities
can also be quite challenging, particularly when you are in
perhaps a volunteer space and you're trying to either lead
(17:11):
by example or instigate change. Has there been a situation
that you've had to delicately navigate where there has been
divide amongst that rural community, and how have you managed
to weave your way through that.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
That's a great question. I have to be a bit
delicate here, obviously, because my rural community is my real
community that there's always challenges with volunteers and with paid stuff,
and I think it's actually helping people understand the why
decisions are made. So for me, I always go back
(17:49):
to do they understand the reasoning behind us this decision?
Do they understand why we've made it and the future
focus of that decision? And there is always going to
be challenges and obstacles along the way between volunteers, paid
stuff or just between volunteers, and it's about communication supporting
(18:11):
the people around you to have an understanding around that.
I'm not sure if that answered your question though, em No.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
It doesn't look. I appreciate that you're still living in
the community now, so I'm not I wouldn't want to
put you in any predicament at all, but it's something
that we've spoken about before in various different ways of
when you are trying to lead or make change or
just I guess train action deliver action in a leadership space,
(18:43):
sometimes people just don't necessarily join the journey with you.
And what you've talked about there is how you get
buy in and why those decisions are made. So that's
really helpful. I'm sure for some of our listeners who
might be dealing with, you know, challenges within the school
board of trustees for example, or are the more community
(19:05):
catchment challenges right now.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah, I think there's a couple of things in there.
So you're always going to have people that are going
to be those early adopters, the ones that do jump
on that front bus and off they go one hundred
miles an hour and things will get done. You've got
the people in the middle that are a little bit measured.
They want to understand a bit more about it so
they can make a really measured decision. And then you've
got the ones, you know, the old analogy as the
(19:30):
bus has turned the wrong way. Some people you can
move on that forward journey and some people you can't.
So it really depends where you want to put your
energy in time to the best benefit of the outcomes
that you want or for the organization that you're dealing with.
So you can't keep everybody happy, and I think we
sometimes we try to keep everybody happy, but really it's
(19:53):
about talking to the ones that will move forward with
you and making sure that you're looking after them. You
can still look after the ones that are on the
backward facing bus, but you just don't put as much
energy into that because you know that you have to
do some good. You have to move things forward for
the benefit of everybody, and I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
And I had a speaking to a CEO of a
big firm the other day and she said to me,
quite often it's considered success of fifty percent of the
people want to come with you. And I think that
just provided a little bit of perspective around that sort
of innate desire to be liked and to want sort
of people to follow the vision that you have. And
(20:38):
it's not always going to be popular when you need
to make tough decisions.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And you're in a leadership position to make those tough decisions,
and sometimes it feels like you've got a target on
your back, but that's what you've been elected to do.
If you're in an elected position, and that's what you're
if you've decided to go into leadership. You have to
understand you have good times and not so good times,
but as long as you know what you're talking about
(21:02):
and you're benefiting your stakeholders, your members, the people that
you're there to represent. I think if you stick to
your values and what those people are wanting as well.
You know, I think you get through, so I fifty percent.
Every organization is different, right, So I think fifty percent
is maybe for me would be a lower line of measurement.
(21:26):
I would really prefer to be able to get more
people on those two front buses and the one at
the end going the other way.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, pivoting slightly now, because you know, our journey
together has been with Rural Women New Zealand, and you're
the current board chair for us at Rural Women New Zealand.
I'm really interested. You've now had a journey of sort
of five years or so with the organization and we've
(21:56):
come across a lot of challenges in that time. But
I'm really interested in your thoughts on what's coming up.
So what are the challenges out there for our rural
Women at the moment and sort of what can we
do about those collectively, because I think as an organization,
we obviously want to always be looking at the benefits
(22:17):
that we can bring to rural women and children, but
also how do we kind of activate others to be
part of that journey as well.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, that's a really loaded Christian Clayer a really great
one and I think, you know, as far as real
women New Zealand goes and rural women in our communities,
Rural women New Zealand has been around for earlie hundred years.
You know, a lot have changed in that hundred years,
and every time during that period that's always changed. There's
(22:48):
always changes that have to work in an organization and
be an impact what happens in an organization. But you know,
for a hundred years, the rural women that have led
this organization and been involved in the organization have done
really well in doing that. They've always changed, They've always
moving forwards, they've always supported communities. I think there's been
(23:09):
quicker change in probably the last ten to fifteen years,
and change is moving very very quickly, and I think
for rural women New Zealand, we need to be able
to come up with solutions a lot quicker than we
have in the past. Our real communities are full of
(23:30):
amazing women, our real women New Zealand is full of
amazing women. But our real communities are also full of
amazing women out there that are doing incredible things, and
they're not connected into real women New Zealand. So I
think there's a synergy between what other groups, what other
organizations are doing out there, and what reural Women's doing.
(23:52):
So why are we doubling up there? Why are we
all doing very similar things when we could do it together?
And I think some perspective of a Royal Women in
New Zealand my personal view, this is not the boards
view and it's not you know, it may not be
members of view. Hopefully it will be some. But from
my personal point of view, we need to come together
more and support each other and do it together, hopefully
(24:15):
under the banner of one organization instead of everybody doing
their own little bits and pieces. We can be stronger
if we come together and do it together. If we're separated,
it's not as efficient. There's a financial resources that are
getting doubled up. There's all these and human resources getting
doubled up. So if we can come together and do
it together under that one umbrella of Royal Women Museum,
(24:37):
I think we'll have a stronger organization and a stronger
my Heimi community and a stronger rural community.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, it just makes sense. I mean, it's utilization of
resources and it's something that we talk about all the
time across the primary sectors that need to collaborate and
communicate together to achieve similar outcomes that are a win
win situation. And Rural Woman is no different to that
in the sense that there are a lot of different
(25:04):
organizations out there, we're all doing similar things, so how
can we collaborate to the best advantage of each other?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Exactly, Sandra.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
One of the things that you have been really a
really big advocate for in my journey and also clear
as journey, is around how to press the no button,
And in particular, we both still have the little no key.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Then we got that for Christmas two years ago. That
was our gift from Sandra was a we no button.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
That's right, which we actually and I still press quite
often just to remind myself where my boundaries are. But
the question for you is how do you set your boundaries?
How do you activate the no button? How do you
know when to push it?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I haven't been so
good the last eighteen months at pushing the no button.
And I've been sitting back the last couple of months
and reflecting on that, because you know, it's like you
can work on these strategies and hand them to other
people like I have with you too with your little
clearing and no button, but it's actually putting them into
(26:15):
practice yourself, and that is challenging. And I won't say
I'm perfect, that's for sure, because you know that I've
extend myself in a lot of areas. So I've really
reflected on where I've been sitting, gone back to where
I need to spend my time and for myself and
for my faro and for my local community. And I
(26:36):
pushed the note but myself on a few things recently,
and I'm very proud of myself because they were very
difficult decisions. But I went back to the same thing
that I've used previously is does this meet my value?
Am I happy doing this? Does it bring me joy?
Do I have time for this? And that's sort of
(26:57):
the criteria I used in a way, And I got
to the point that I didn't want to leave, but
I knew I had to leave. I had to press
that no button. So, yeah, it takes a lot of energy,
it takes a lot of time. But for me, I
always go back to my values and what I really
want to do and get out of my own life.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Yeah, so it sounds like sorry to interrupt, just to
summarize that is you took the time. You take the
time to reflect. So this is the critical part of
your success is actually taking that sacred time, putting it
(27:39):
aside and doing that the deep work that comes with
first of all identifying your values and then sitting with
yourself to work out whether it does the potential opportunity
does bring you joy consideration of time, planning, etc. And
that's just really hit home for me as the importance
of self reflection.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And that's one thing I do a lot. I think
my coaching training and the coaching I have done in
the past. When you're a coach, you tend to, well,
I do this is what my good I do. I
tend to coach myself in my head. I have other
coaches that you know, people I talk to, but I
coach myself and I say, and that's what I do.
I use that as a self reflection and is it
(28:22):
really somewhere I want to be. I love a challenge,
as you both know. I love a challenge. I love
getting stuck in. I love getting my hands dirty, and
I love making a difference for my hani and our
real communities and our primary industries. Absolutely love it. And
it floats my bow. But sometimes you just have to
reflect and say, yeah, it's not doing it anymore. I
(28:44):
need to step away and let somebody else take that
mental And that's where I'm sort of being lately. Yeah,
and I think the cyclones have made a big difference
there too. You know, it's been eighteen months of a
lot of graft and it's taken its toll on a
lot of people. And I think that's self reflection there
has helped make those decisions. So yeah, so I hope
(29:04):
you use that more because it is a great tool.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
It is a great tool, and it's something that I'm
trying to do a lot more of as well. I
think the challenges for high achieving women is not everything
is dressed up as a good challenge that's suited to
you for the season that you're in. And as a
high achieving woman, sometimes you have to rewire your brain
(29:28):
to think about the opportunity and the framework that you
just presented.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, and it's been patient, right. I've had a couple
of conversations last few weeks with younger women like yourselves
that are saying, you know, how do I get into
governance or how do I get my first role or
those sorts of things, and I get saying be patient
and be very aware that if you're going to go
into an area of governance, if that's your journey, make
(29:55):
sure that governance space that you're looking at meets your values,
make sure you've got time to do it, and make
sure it's something you want to do, because governance is
not easy. There's a lot of working governance, and you know,
sometimes you've got to target on your back and sometimes
you die. But yeah, that self reflection is and just
looking at what you're going to do in the future.
(30:16):
It's really important to have a good handle on that.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
One thing that I'm reflecting on hearing that is when
you're younger and you're in your first sort of ten
years of your career, you actually spend a lot of
time saying yes yes to the opportunity, Yes I can
do that, Yes I'd love to help with that project.
And there's actually a period where there's a change because
you actually start to get more opportunities than you have
(30:42):
time energy, and that meet your values, right, So you
actually then have to start saying, Okay, this one meets
my values and this one doesn't. All this one's working
towards my overall outcome and this one isn't. And I'm
just reflecting on that pivot point, you know, like what
does that look like? And then how do you start
to develop that really strong intention around what you do?
(31:06):
So used to.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I think clear it's about creating a plan, being patient
at the start and creating a plan unless they're help
if you're not really sure where to get started, unless
they're help with others. Yeah, and take your time. It's
not a sprint to the finish. It's a long journey
of experience, and talk to people that are involved in
that too, because they will give you if they're honest
(31:31):
with you, they'll give you the warts and all. They'll
give you the good bets, they'll give you the not
so great bets. But it is so rewarding if you
find the right positions.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Yeah, and we appreciate you for all of the feedback
that you've given us over the years as well. You
mentioned before the cyclones and obviously that had a really
big impact on your local community. And I was just
pondering earlier today. I feel like the story of the
cyclones was sure lived in the media and in terms
(32:02):
of the reporting of it, and how that kind of
has looked. What is it that the people of tait
Arfaiti and sort of the East coast want the rest
of New Zealand to know, Well, what's happening out there
still on the ground, what should we be aware of
and where can we kind of still help out.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, that's an interesting one. I've actually had some conversations
with a few ministry people recently about that as well.
There's still people hurting out there. There's still people that
don't have their houses aspected, or houses or businesses. I
think the cyclones come through, people have gone, people have come,
(32:45):
and there's been lots of support going to certain areas,
the soundbites of the the videos of their all that
destruction and helps gone into certain areas, but there's other
areas that haven't received as much help, and you know
there's a bit of angst around that. There's still people
that are behind areas that haven't got bridges to get
(33:06):
to their farms and things, especially in our area, and
those bridges might be five or six years away. So
you know, there's one I think it was in the
media on seven sharp or something last year. Sometimes one
of our nurse friends is actually in a kayak going
across the river to get to a vehicle so she
can drive to the job in town at the local hospital.
(33:28):
Those guys are not going to have a bridge that
I understand. I haven't heard any any further information on
that recently, but they will. They'll be a long way
away from getting a bridge. So there's people are still
out there hurting. I mean, even our own farm. We're
only probably halfway through repairing the damage on farm. Our house.
Cyclone damage has just been fixed at the front of
(33:49):
the house and now we're just waiting for the rest
to be done on the other side of the house.
There's people still working through that. Money is getting tight,
you know, obviously in royal communities. Money is tight anyway
of pricing and everything at the moment, in the cost
of living, in the cost of expenses on farm. So
I think it's actually just realizing this is a really
long journey for the east coast of the North Island,
(34:12):
and it is for North London some other areas as well,
specifically Hawkes Bay, terrua tidarsity in some areas of Wairapa
that have been hit by the cyclone quite badly too,
So it is a long journey and just remember that
people are still struggling out there emotionally and with their
financial capacity as well.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Such good reminders from your views where you are right
now and the fact that you are seeing first ten
some of those challenges. So thanks so much for sharing that.
I'm going to segue into what is possibly a left
field question, but I'm really interested in your answer, Sandra,
what are you genuinely most proud of?
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Oh, yes, to see thee I am most proud of
my family, my two children, Emma and Jamie. Bringing them
both in the world for me wasn't an easy journey.
I had Caesars and a few other issues with both
of them. Yeah, And as I said earlier, I'm Australia
at the moment just for a few days with them
(35:19):
and it just fills my heart to be with them.
So I think my children and the fact that I'm
still married after thirty three years or something, that's something
to be proud of, proud of, I think. I think
career wise, the thing I'm most proud about is being
approached by Rural Women New Zealand to lead the National
(35:40):
Board as board ch here. Career wise, that's probably a
highlight for me. Yeah, So I think those are the
two things that I'm most proudest about.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
It's funny because I love that you talked about your
post natal depression and the challenges that you faced, and
how you're so proud of your family and raising them
and having a wonderful marriage with that being the base
(36:11):
that you started from, And how you just talked about
rural women and the opportunity that has been given to
you to lead and you're doing such a fabulous job.
Because when I first put my hand up for the
board role, I was at the same point that you
just described. So I look back and I think I
(36:33):
should have been medicated at that particular time. I wasn't
for various reasons, some of which was COVID nineteen. But
I am just so proud of you for starting to
talk about that journey and those common will be in
(36:55):
that position right now, who will know, hopefully from this interview,
that there is light ain the end of the tunnel,
and all those practical tips that you just gave and
rattled off the top of your head like it was nothing,
they will be so meaningful for someone.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I hope. So, because that's how we learn, isn't it
from others. That's how we grow. It's from listening to
other people. And if I can help at least one
person understand that it's going to be okay. You know that.
Really I don't know. It disheartens me, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I'm going to ask a broad question too, because
you know, we're facing quite a lot of challenges in
the rural space at the moment from a primary industry,
export perspective, and social license and you know our.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
I suppose meeting emissions targets and things like that. There's
a lot of challenges in that space. There's a lot
of challenges with global commodities and moving things in the
economic space as well. But what do you think is
out there in the ether for the future of agriculture
(38:07):
and New Zealand in terms of what things might we
need to do better, what things could we capitalize on?
Is there anything out there for you that stands out
that's sort of saying, hey, here's a big change, we
just need to be brave enough to grasp it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
A great question. Clear, I think we've got a bit
bogged down at the moment in the doom and gloom.
I think there's a really bright future for our prime
industries in this country. I think that people need to
start thinking a little bit more outside the square. Yeah,
I really do think food.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
I'm involved in sheep and sheep and beef right, so
I probably talk more to be because I don't know
a lot about dairy. Only what I know arogress from
being at different functions and reading. But I think people
will always need food. For farmers in New Zealand, I
think we need to be realistic to understand that consumers
(39:07):
just want to know that if we're growing their food
and they're going to put it on their table, that
it's done a sustainable way. Sustainable looks different for different people.
You know. We hear the old adage, Oh, we've always
done it like this, so and we're the best in
the world, so we don't need to change. Well that's
all well and good, but yes we do need to change.
We're farmers. We've always changed. We've always adjusted our way
(39:30):
of working, We've always adjusted what we do. We've changed
with genetics, always changed with different cropping or whatever it is.
There's always change. It's constant and I think we need
to open our minds as farmers that there are other
ways that we can do things so that we are
more sustainable. You know, there's only little things on farms
like not putting your rubbish in a big pit and
(39:52):
bearing it with a digger, those sorts of things, right,
they're little things that can help us change taking your
plastic containers to the recyclers, as long as we know
where that recycling is going and it's not going to
a third world country. Yeah, I think as farm as
we really need to open up our minds, listen to
people are doing something different and just say hey, we
(40:12):
could actually try that. And we're pretty good at that
at a top sort of twenty percentage stage. But it's
the ones in the middle that I think, Okay, let's change.
Let's just take them on the journey. Work out how
to take them on a journey, which is always a
difficult process for levybodies. I think, is Okay, how do
(40:33):
we get the people that are not going to these
workshops or these meetings and learning more about how they
can change and what they can do to improve their businesses?
And I know Beef and them are working on that
at the moment and there will be changes there which
hopefully we'll encourage more people to be there and to learn.
But we just need to learn from other people. Look
what other countries are doing, and some really great articles,
(40:56):
great information coming back from other countries what they are doing.
And people come back from me enough fields and they say, wow,
other countries are so far in advance of us and
doing certain things. And a lot of it is in sustainability.
We don't have to plant trees all over our farm
to be sustainable. We just have to change a practice
at a time and be on the.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Journey, incremental steps along the way.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, and I think at the moment it's a bit
overwhelming for people. You know, all the emissions talk and
hey when all the things that have happened in the
last few years that haven't been positive have put people's
minds into a negative mindset. So we need to work
on actually improving getting that back into a Yes, we
can tackle this together, and we can improve what we do.
(41:39):
We can always improve what we do. You know, I
look out onto our farm and look at the damage
from the cyclones. In a lot of places there were
no trees because it was you know, everything was cleared,
I don't know, fifty or sixty years ago. And Ian
and I are madly trying to plant as much as
we can, but with limited resources financially, that's very difficult
as well.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, but it's the journey, right, and let's embrace that
journey and embrace other people's different ideas and get on
with it. Be open minded and learn from others that
are doing really good things.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Open mindedness, embrace the journey and just get on with it.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Great succinct actionable points there.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
So, Sandra, you are a busy lady. You won the
inaugural Beef and Lamb New Zealand Rural Champion Award in
twenty twenty two. You're also an Agmard scholar along with
being the chair of a Woman New Zealand, and it
sounds as though you've got lots of other balls in
the area as well. Based on our previous conversation, what
do you think the next few years might hold for you,
(42:42):
both personally and professionally.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, that's it was an interesting question around that because
for me, I've just been trying to get through the
last eighteen months to see the truth. But I think
for me in the next twelve months personally, it's getting
a bit more time with my very patient husband. Often
I feel sorry for him as they come up with
some crazy ideas. He just shakes his head says yeah, okay,
(43:07):
And he's my biggest champion and I'll be lost without him.
So I do need to spend a bit more time
with him and value him a little bit more than
what I have in the last eighteen months because I've
put a lot of time into other people and other roles.
One of the big things from me is that the
elections for Real Women are coming up at the end
of the year and our gorgeous president and most effective President, Jill,
(43:31):
is needing to step down because his term is finished.
So I've been encouraged by quite a few people around
the Motu to stand as president. So I am going
to do that because I think Real Women's such an
amazing organization. We've got incredible Wahmi within the organization. But
I'm also excited about the opportunity of going out to
(43:55):
so many more amazing Wahini around the moto and bringing
them into the and having them part of the organization
to build it for the future. So the other thing
too is to reinstate my health. So my health and
wellbeing journey over the last d eightien months has been
really poor, and I'll own that I'll stand up and
put my hand up. Didn't push my note, but enough
(44:17):
ladies during the last stadium months. But yeah, I need
to look after myself a bit more and you know,
get some exercised into my daily routine.
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah, what you've said there is really exciting. You know,
I'm very optimistic about what I think the women of
rural New Zealand can do. And you know, we're also
about to celebrate the centenary of one hundred years of
Real Women New Zealand, or the Women's Division of the
(44:46):
Farmer's Union as it once was, and that's an opportunity
as well to look at where we've come and then
set that sort of vision for the next hundred years,
which is a pretty special thing to be a part of.
So it's yeah, it's really wonderful to hear that you're
looking to step into that space and put your hand up.
(45:08):
I have the privilege, as I often do, of wrapping
this up today and it's with somewhat actually quite an
emotional feeling that I have because you've been a part
of both of our governance. Juniors You've been an incredible
advocate and supporter for both of us. You've taught us
so much about how to have courageous conversations and advocate
(45:35):
for ourselves and make sure that we stand up and
be respectful in things that we say and do, and
our governance juniors would not be the same without you.
You're also an incredible community champion. I think if there
was a Champion award to be given it each year,
it should be given to you for standing up and
(45:57):
being a real advocate in that space as well. And
I was really proud to write a letter recently as
to the effect that you've had on my life and
my world, and I know that I'm one of many.
So yeah, You're an incredible human, Sandra, and we're very
very grateful to have you in our corner, as I'm
sure many of many of the other women are as well,
(46:20):
and we really really respect and value your time. Today.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Wow, thank you, Claire, just about let me cry. Thank
you so much for those beautiful words. I really do
appreciate it. And you know, I just do what I
do because I love doing it, and I love supporting
other women, other people around the country and internationally as well.
But I just love what I do, and if I
can make the difference in one person's life, I just
(46:45):
that's my purpose in life, right And yes, so thank
you for those lovely words.
Speaker 3 (46:50):
Thank you so much. I wholly endorse what Claire has
just said and we can't wait to see what comes
nixt for you. Sandra Matthews, thank you so much,
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.