June 5, 2025 • 32 mins
I yarn with proud Widjabul Wia-bal woman Larissa Baldwin-Roberts — a lifelong community organiser, strategist, and changemaker. From growing up in Lismore surrounded by stories of resistance and survival, to leading major campaigns on climate, justice, and rights, Larissa shares how her family’s legacy shaped her political thinking and commitment to grassroots action.
We explore the aftermath of the Voice referendum, the threats facing Treaty processes, and the urgent need to reframe how we organise, persuade, and protect First Nations rights on our own terms. Larissa reflects on the lessons passed down from her father and community Elders, the role of strategic activism, and why self-determination doesn’t need government permission.
With deep insights into the political moment we’re in, this episode also shines a light on Indigenous-led leadership, featuring reflections on the work of Aunty Mary Graham and the power of Aboriginal logic and philosophy.
🖤💛❤️
Resources & Links
The BlackCard – Cultural Education and Training
Founded by Aunty Mary Graham and Dr Lilla Watson.
Passing the Message Stick
A research project led by First Nations campaigners, including Larissa Baldwin-Roberts, focused on how to shift public attitudes toward First Nations justice.
GetUp!
A progressive movement Larissa previously led — involved in campaigns on justice, climate, and Aboriginal rights.
Voice Referendum – Resources and Reflections
-
The Guardian – Referendum coverage and analysis:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/voice-to-parliament -
Australian Human Rights Commission – Statement on the Voice:
https://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/voice-parliament
Yoorrook Justice Commission (VIC)
Victoria’s Truth-Telling Commission
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Black Cast, Unite our voices. Black Magic Women Podcast acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land we have recorded this
episode on. We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land
where you, the listener of youer are tuning in from.
We would like to pay our respects to our elders
past and present and acknowledged that this always was Aboriginal
(00:25):
land and always will be Aboriginal land.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bail.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey you mob, Welcome back to another episode of Black
Magic Women. I am kind of in two minds about
this year. I'm like, what are we going to yearn about?
Because twenty minutes is not a lot of time. So
I'm like, should we do part one apart two? I
think we'll end up doing part two all right, So
we'll try and get through as much as we can
in terms of the work that you do in community systs,
(01:02):
all the different hats you where and even some of
your your family that are my family. I don't know
where this yard is going to go, but that's what
I love about the format of this show. So I'm
gonna hand over to you so deadly to catch up
with you. I've run into you now twice in like
last week here on Yagura Country. We've kind of just
(01:22):
bumped into each other at the Human Rights sum up,
which has been really deadly. But for people that don't
know who you are, can you just do a little intro,
your name, your molbourne, a little bit about where you
grew up.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, so my name is Larisa Baldwin Roberts and I'm
proud which were wible woman. Grew up on country in Lizmore,
but you know, big, big country in the Northern Rivers
and it's an amazing place to grow up in, hanging
out Lismore and Nimben and that sort of stuff with
your kids and out at Gunda and those types of things.
But all my mob is all the Roberts mob, the
(01:54):
biggest more going down in northern New South Wales. And
I work, as I say, I'm an organizer campaign. I've
had lots of different titles of led the largest political
organization in the country, which was get Up, but I
have moved on from there and now not just set
up because it's been around for a while, but I
head up some research projects called passing the Message Dick.
(02:16):
It's the research director looking at how we persuade people
around rights and justice and transformative change and kind of
that big picture thinking. And you know how voters in
this country or not Indigenous people in this country not
just how they understand us, but how do you get
them to vote on the issues that matter to us.
And excitingly, just this week we've formally been registered as
(02:36):
a corporation, so First Nations led campaigning organizing. We want
to build movements for big systemic change and you know
it's something that doesn't get a lot of resource and
I think you know, over my years of campaigning and organizing,
people would know me from different campaigns around climate change,
which is still really important, and supporting mob across the country,
(02:57):
big gas campaigns to stop cracking and since twenty ten
there hasn't been a gas field that has come to reduction.
To be walking with traditional owners five of those big
front lines for a really long time. But yeah, pushing
through legislation on cultural aage, sacred sites acts, getting stuff
done with people in the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Do you reckon it's from your upbringing within your family,
community and culture that has kind of driven you or
led you to the work that you're doing, or is
there anyone in particular in your family that you've kind
of been inspired by. You You're like, you know, I'm
going to do what they're doing, because seriously, is a
(03:33):
lot of us in our communities, you know, would say
that to some degree we do carry out cultural and
family obligations or community obligations, but you're kind of doing
things on a mass level. So a lot of us,
you know, some of us don't want to do things
in community. And you know, look after twenty kids because
someone's in jail, I don't know, right, you know what
(03:55):
I'm talking about all the trauma within our families and communities.
But yeah, how did you how did you get into
this kind of work as a community organizer?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I mean, I think this is the similarities between us, right,
It's just like what did our old people do? What
did our fathers do? My dad was a big campaigner
and he spent a lot of time. He was the
first regional chairperson of the Regional Land Counselor in the
Northern Rivers and he was really instrumental in kind of
the big land Roads movement fifty years ago. My older
(04:29):
brother talks about, you know, kind of the big rallies
on the back of trucks that they did through Sydney
growing up in Redfern because they had to go down
there because you know, they're on rations.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That's where they met. They congregated in redl.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
They were part of that Red Fern generation that believed
like we've got to do this ourselves, We've got to
set up you know that those were the people that
set up the legal services, that set up the health community,
that set up community radio, all these types of things.
And you know, to me growing up and hearing those stories,
like I loved it. I love that listening to the
story of Kabui, which is the you know, our Ooriginal
(05:01):
mission out the back of Kyagul is more, but you know,
and the walk off from Cabbastree Island and why they
did that and why you know uncle Lyle he's very
senior men, one of the last fully initiated elders in
Bundelung country and you know him flying the Aboriginal flag
for the first time on Lismore City Hall and why
he did it. And just like I didn't think about
it in terms of a way of like this is
(05:23):
protest or campaigning or activism, and I didn't really know
the full stories of like, you know, they the first
day of morning and there's a down. If you go
look at the records and stuff like that, there's like
a petition with five hundred signatures on it, and it's
like that was the day of the mission movement when
you had to go the protector to try and get
off the mission, and they had signatures of five hundred
(05:44):
people from all these different missions saying we deserve our
rights and we're going to fight for them, and they
were you know, Dadd used to tell me stories about
the big you know, gathering places that Kabawei and Kabawei
for us means a place of full in plenty, and
so old people walked off and they're like, now we're
going to sit up here and we're going to stay
on country, escape in the violence at Cabatry by the police.
(06:04):
And so hearing those stories and you're just like you
see the photos of the big congregations, and then Dad
would tell us the stories of like we'd have this
church gathering inviting all these non indigenous people, but we
were scheming to get our land back, you know, and
just like hear all those stories and you just love them.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
An ulterior motive.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, it's funny because my story of like coming to
Brisbane is so much around like meeting the Watson family
and feeling like, oh, I got family here as well,
just like running around like sleeping on Uncle Ross's couch
and stuff like that. And I didn't know the connection
even back then. But it's also strange thinking about like
(06:41):
the political action of these families. It was just like
if you had a family business that went for that
long and that was that successfully and it was like legislation,
get a weird rid of protection acts, winning you know,
cultural heritage legislation, ripping down the fence of Parliament when
they stuffed up the Native Title acting quins On, like
all this sort of stuff. And you understand like what
(07:01):
they were doing when they were young people in Didney,
challenging from that place of colonization about where we were
going and thinking. And I was having this conversation with
my cousin, Rhoda Robertson saying, you know, we were talking
about the kind of amazing things that they did and
just like you know, people think they're incredible political thinkers.
And she stopped me and she said, you know what,
our people were not political thinkers, they were political doers.
(07:24):
Nothing got in their way. They didn't have a dollar
between them. You know, they all went down to Redfern
and because you know, you had to work bring money
back home because big families and they had to feed them.
And in Queensland, northern New South Wales if you were
living on rations but you weren't getting much else to feed,
big families like that. So a lot of the young
men and women went down and we're doing that, like
working all the factories there, or tent boxing. I love
(07:46):
the stories about the amazing like bunge lung fighters and
that sort of stuff, and all the work that they
were doing tent boxing, and then all the kind of
mission gatherings that they would have after it. Just people
from everywhere, right.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And that's my dad used to talk about this with
the Land Council.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Dad said that he never got paid for being the
chairperson the a Awgal chair of the New South Wales
Average Non Land Cancer of the State Body, the Peak Body.
He got an allowance, a travel allowance and he got
a phone or something right when phones came in. So
we've got a little travel allowance, but no salary. So
he started managing black bands, taking black bands out to community,
(08:23):
and through that he was building relationships. Here was a
bloody Murray. For people that don't realize the difference between
a Murray and a Kury. It's like if you wear
a blues jersey, we know where each other stands. So
my dad was a Queenslander, my mum was a Koury,
and his dad living in Redfern being voted in by
the people of New South Wales to represent them wouldn't
(08:44):
happen tod Asis.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Right, No, But I think my dad was a good
schemer on that.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
For your dad, that's exactly it. Through relationship building and
then seeing you know, my dad obviously had a way
about him and that was through my granny Mook.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And it's also thing around the It was an approach
like I used to talk about Dad around you know,
kind of all the work that you do with uncle,
like City and some of the older grandfathers and that
sort of stuff around protecting and locking up all of that,
you know, nightcap and that sort of stuff. Wine one
from logging because it was happening really bad, and they
were talking about how they would just get deals from
(09:20):
like work out with this political party, what they were
going to give them this political party, and they would
play the Nationals and the Libs and label all against
each other, and they're just like whatever the best deal was.
And then they would talk to everyone, talked all the
white fellows shifting their votes around it. If you cared
about it, you got to do it this way. But
I just feel like we live in a different time now,
Like you can understand my uncle. Like I remember looking
back through photos. You know, Dad passed away like three
(09:41):
years ago now, and there's so many photos of like
your older sisters when they're kids, like dad and your dad,
And I was like, I don't know, I remember being there.
I don't remember these photos taken. It's just like it
was wild the way they approached things, like they was
doing activism, but they were big strategic thinkers and they
had a way about bringing people together. And I think
it's like a lot of people a young mob asked
(10:04):
me like how did I get these jobs? I'm like,
I don't know what's nature or nurture because it was
just kind of what I knew how to do. And
then I don't know, I've never applied for a job
in my life. I've just you know, kind of worked
through thinking about what mob want to do, how we
want to move forward. And you know, I now know
that I get a lot of that from my dad,
(10:25):
but I didn't really fully know until like late, you know,
in the last few years.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Really, So it's community really that drives you. Yeah, motivates
you in terms of where you feel that you can
best support.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It's also where you know, how you're saying, how like
this idea around how you grew up, Like I grew
up in Lismore, like you know, big we were poor,
but I don't think I realized until we were like
you know, kids were talking about going to university and
then I seeing how much it costs, must like you
can freaking afford that?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Like what are you doing? Oh, going on a holiday? Right?
People would say, Oh, we're going to go to wherever Bali, Fiji,
And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, my god, we've never
been on a plane. Does it well, rich, Yes, they've
got a passport. We didn't even have birth certificate. Sis. Yeah.
I don't know why my mom didn't register our births.
And when I think about it now, I can only
(11:18):
assume that it was to protect us from being taken.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I mean there's a lot of that as well.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Ninety ninety six my birth certificate was registered and that's
when we need to pass port to go over to
old and dance. My dad actually, right up until the
day passed was still working behind the microphone. Yeah, I know.
February he was on air doing his let's talk show
(11:44):
on NINEFM for the best Country music and Murray Music.
And then he passed in April. Like he he literally
was of service to his community. It felt so fast,
I know, I know, But do you think you can
do this for the rest of your life? Like he's
the longevity in this work that you do.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
You know. How I feel about this is like I
don't care if I don't get paid to do this
or not. This is what I'm gonna do. And I
think it goes back to it's like what is the
actualization and who you are as the First Nations, as
an Aboriginal woman, as a whige of a wire woman,
Like there's a part of you know, who we are
as whigeal Whi women is like we are law makers
(12:27):
and men were law enforces and there's a role here
around how we think about strategies and like you know,
culturally clever people came from our clan and like you know,
we are five people bring people together across the well Bungelung,
but you can bear nations as well. There was so
much interconnection, like you know, we talk about Bunnia festivals
and that sort of stuff and those song lines, like
(12:48):
that's some really strong politics in that country. And even
when I think like people here from people like Honey Lilla,
like Honey Mary Graham and stuff like that, and just
like everything they say about politics, like you've heard this
story before, but like this is so right for this
time right now. And I just feel like, you know,
when I grew up, I never had any negative sense
(13:12):
of identity around who I was. And it's an aboriginal girl.
I just never like we didn't have money. Yes, we
grew up on like in housing commissions stuff like that.
We had fire.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So did everyone else up in you exactly that had.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You know, well, no, that's it. And so I was
just like when I was thinking about, you know, I
gotta go to university and get a job, and I
was like, wait, that's not a pathway for me. So
I'm like looking at a lot of what are my
aunties and uncle's doing. I remember Annie Bertha Kapinne pulling
me into the Neundia Aboriginal Health Council and I was
like fifteen or sixteen at that point, going around doing minutes,
(13:46):
sending them. We went around ever in New South Wales
to their communities. Then people forget how big the optional
population is in northern Eastela. It's massive. And I just
I remember learning being like, are you serious, like this
blot didn't even finish primary school and they started the
health service. Yeah, hell yeah, and just thinking about, well,
(14:08):
I don't need to freaking go to university because I
can do this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And I love the fact that we had people that
kind of showed us then led by example within our community.
Dad was a saying why didn't you go to university?
For go work your way up? And I know all
your friends where we looking for a job and you'll
already be earning more money than he was right. Yeah,
he was usually always right Dad. It's just what I
(14:38):
was going to ask, is the election now we've kind
of a new chapter for the next four years. Anyways,
there's a new chapter. Do you feel that there's going
to be I don't know a shift, just the fact
that Albernezi just got in again. There's a lot that's
kind of happening or kind of brewing underneath the surface.
Has a lot of hatred, a lot of discrimination, a
(14:59):
lot of racism. It's rearing its ugly head again in Australia,
conceal over social media with an Zac Day and beautiful honey, Joy,
Mirth Murphy, you know, and the Melbourne storms now saying
that it was an administrative error.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Like.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Literally an administrative error that they miscommunicated to any Joy
that they did want her to do it, but they
were going to change your time. So they're back pedaling
now right because of the backlash. But even the fact
that the Abasginal Health Service cut the funding their partnership,
so financially it's hit the Melbourne stone on where it
hurts and now they're back pedaling. So there's a lot
(15:34):
going on in this country right now. What are some
of the kind of positives like what keeps you going,
what inspis, what motivates you, what gets you out of
bed despite all of the other things that kind of
either make you feel exhausted or even a little bit.
I don't know. Sometimes I just feel like we got
to keep doing this.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, We've got to keep doing this, but.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
No negotiable coming from our families.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Coming from our families.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think it's like, do we got to mark which again,
this is my kids forty degree heat, Mum, yes you do.
Just get the little I've got the trolley thing, you know,
the beach things, buggies I carry the kids.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Can go for a swim after. But you know what
I think is and the referendum was also bad.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I don't think that's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
This is still yeah, And I think where I'm at
right now because we've just moved out to start a
First Nations campaigning and movement building organization, and you know,
there was a lot of understanding what's happened in the
last election and where which way that was headed, and
where we came from the referendum. Just be like, we
need to do this campaigning and how we fight for
(16:48):
justice on our own terms, not just responding to what
a government or a political leader or egos are asking
us to respond to. And I think for me, I
have I haven't actually talked about this publicly before, but
I had a lot like I consume campaigns and like
a campaign all the time. I've won lots and lots
of campaigns understanding how you win. And the reality was
(17:12):
is that the referendum was lost at the beginning of
the year of the referendum, and it was this moment
of people are going to come for me saying this,
but it was this moment of saying, like, why are
we doing this? Like six months out from the referendum,
the campaigning was redlining and people are saying that right now,
But it's just like, but why didn't you stop the referendum?
(17:34):
The Machinery Act hadn't been pushed forward, and it's all
about egos, like we're gonna get there. But also there
was such a disconnect that we needed to bring in
all these non Indigenous campaign experts who understood how to
win campaigns. And that's like true on certain types of campaigns,
but the reality is it's very different to make the
case for First Nations justice and the right space holders
(17:55):
of this land and that requires and you would know
this in terms of the way that you know, like
you know, as a young campaigner, your dad would ask
me to come in and be on the radio station.
He'd put me up and ask me a million different
questions about why that felt a different way or why
we'd made this political decision. You're just testing you all
the time and understanding the reality that we exist in
like this country. It's not a rejection of First Nations people,
(18:18):
but you can put the constitution aside. People feel really
conservative about changing the constitution and that's something that we
need to understand and we've unpacked it with a lot
of more because it's not just about a rejection of us,
because there's a lot of trauma in a national rejection
and how much I don't think we talk about how
violent that campaign was. We kind of just brush it
under the rug. And we've been having those conversations in
community around what actually happened. But the reality is there
(18:41):
is a way to persuade people in how we seek
justice for ourselves, and that is around not seating the
moral high ground. It's about having the right messages at
the front and the people who are talking from community
and talking with authority. And also the fact that we
can't step out on political campaigns if our communities don't
know what the campaign is about, because whether it's a
(19:03):
good idea or not, you have to understand and hold
empathy for the amount of government not just failures, but
outright harm that has been done to our governments by
successive governments on purpose. And so when you come out
with a government program and you understand how our communities
react to it, like part of it is a trauma response,
like is this what do we lose if we're going
(19:24):
to gain this thing? But also it never feels like
you don't get anything for free, and so like all
the rest of this come to catch to this, Yeah,
that's it, no, but this is how people feel, right,
And so when we were talking to people in the referendum,
thing that really made me feel no good was just
like so many community members just didn't think it was
a silver bullet, but they would say, and we had
(19:45):
conversations right across the country, if we lose this, we're
going backwards, and there's a reality within that. But I
just don't think people understood how far the vote was
going to go. But also the other thing was is
that this kind of reign of terror of like the
amount of racism acts on our families, attacks on our communities,
(20:07):
the winebacks, the attacks on cultural heritage, they've ripped the
legislation out of the wa Parliament for cultural heritage protection
like that. That's if you're a people that believe that
you belong to this land and you're going to rip
out the legislation that protects some minor part of it.
There's just there's so much harm being done by that.
And we didn't have a protection mechanism and a defensive campaign.
(20:28):
We didn't push back, you know. And I say this
as well, it's not just about what the far right
was saying and people like just In Price and Warren Mundane.
It's about the things that at the Prime Minister said.
You remember, like the first one of the first things
that he said at the beginning of the year when
there was a protest around Treaty or Voice which comes
first in in Victoria, he said, they're just activists making
(20:50):
noise something to that effect. But he dismissed them. He
dismissed in community that there could be a different opinion
when we hadn't had a proper yarn in the country
about it. So people were having their opinions and this
figurehead shut them down and that's not the way that
we do things, and so it's just going to create
more tension. The other part is there was a point
in the campaign where he came out and he said, look,
this isn't about racism. There has never been a campaign
(21:13):
about First Nations people in this land that has not
been about racism. It's always about racism. But the impact
of that is we couldn't have a conversation about racism.
And you can't talk about racism if you can't talk
about a displacement. And I'm sorry, you can't make basically
the case to Australian voters that there's some harm that
needs to be you know, there's some redress that has
to be happening. You have to tell the truth otherwise
(21:35):
our community don't believe you have the right solution. But
also this country doesn't believe that it needs to do anything.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So that's where I'm at right now, especially Victoria. Oh
use one example, You've got the Truth Telling Commission YURUK
and that's the first truth and justice kind of yeah,
it's the first public of commission in Australian history, right yeah.
But then they've got the treaty on the other side
(22:02):
and the first People's Assembly where hopefully and this is
from deadly professor, thanks to around Hunter, I just call
your sister. She's saying that with the recommendations handed down
from YURUK, they'll hand that to the treaty mob to
then implement. So I thought that was pretty deadly. And
(22:23):
then with Queensland when the Liberal government got in, the
Truth Commission was defunded immediately. So where to from here, Like,
what do you think is going to happen over the
next couple of years, What should we be doing, where
should we be focusing our energy? Maybe it could be
a message for a lot of our non indigenous listeners
that are listening. What would you say to them? How
(22:43):
can they? And I deliver training every day and I'm
having conversations with people like you and they always want
to know what can they do.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I think there's a lot of opportunity, but there's a
lot of threats as well that are out there. I
think that when we talk about, you know, the first
victims of the referendum were the NT and Queensland based truth,
truth and treaty processes. Those being winened up wound up
is very significant. I think we have to think about
what has just happened in the last election, Like, yes,
(23:12):
the preference deals that happened, and it's not telling the
whole story. Labour only got thirty four percent of the vote,
but it's a significant win. But the opposition isn't coming
back anytime soon. The Greens, I think, will come back
because a lot of their preferences flowed to labor. But
the point is we have an outward majority of a
labor government that doesn't want to do anything ambitious. I
(23:34):
don't know if you've seen on election night. I think
it was the treasure of Jim Chalmer's got up and
he said, you know, we're focused on reconciliation and closing
the gap. Someone said today, like the amount of failure
is under closing the gap. Why do we still have
this thing? It has failed more than at Sick. At
Sick did more to benefit our communities than closing the gap.
(23:55):
It's not working because we're having this measly mouthed conversation
about closing the gap instead of talking about his report
every year on the systemic racism in the health service
and you know social services delivered by the state and
territory in federal governments. We're going backwards on lots of things.
The other thing I'd say is, like I always thought
within the referendum and the Voice de Parliament. Like I
(24:18):
campaigned against the original kind of constitutional recognition because I
was like, what is five words? Yeah, Like who cares
about five words in a constitution? But I did get
on board in the referendum campaign because I was like, Okay,
we're here, and I don't want blackfellows to lose, and
so for me, I'm all in. But I really believe
that we need mechanisms to talk to each other. We
need to stop centering government at the kind of center
(24:40):
of everything that we do. They're not the decision maker,
and we need to kind of think about the processes
around what does self determination look like, because you don't
need permission for self determination, you don't need permission to
enact your sovereignty. And so I think about actually post referendum,
you know, people saying reconciliation is dead. But I also
think this idea of just like appealing to white structures
(25:03):
of power is also kind of it doesn't work for us.
And there are ways that activism worked for us in
the kind of the you know, fifties and sixties when
we actually did win things and yes, the people got
flogged moored by the police, and that sort of stuff.
But we tangibly made gains in the eighties, we tangibly
made gains, and like we have been on this slow
kind of bleed backwards. And so for me, I'm just like, well,
(25:24):
let's use this moment of disruption and work out how
we go forward. But within that, I do think whatever
kind of whatever shape these treaty processes take, maybe they
take the process of just like service agreements. I don't
think that. I think the aspirations of our communities is
so much more. But if you end up in Victoria
(25:44):
in a space where all money that is for aberge
and torture and the people goes directly to us and
we make the decisions, you watch that gap close. So
I think there is there's a way in that we
have to And we now have a very funded far
right gener now just handed out money to the far right,
handed out money to advance Australia. We've got to get
our kind of ducks in order to push back on
this stuff. And it's not okay to just be silent
(26:06):
when football codes or you know, idiots are in booing
the welcome to country. Understand, Like that's not just a
cultural And I hate how people say this is like, oh,
this cultural will, we don't want to talk about it.
I'm like, this is racism. This is the racism and
basically setting the standards more. It's much more insidious than this,
Like what you're trying to do is actually remove Indigenous
(26:28):
rights in this country and understand that that's what they're doing.
The people mouthing off around Australia Day this year saying like, oh,
we voted against this, you can't have this treaty process,
Like this was never on the ballot. But Australians, like
you know, the far right, they think like we're going
to remove these rights. People don't understand that. You know,
the Queensland government is talking about ripping out different Native
(26:51):
toild negotiation WA government before they went to election, they said,
let's get rid of the right to negotiate. You know,
these are significant things. Sacred Sites Act in NT just
the other week being pulled up range of programs funding
all the amount of like moving our kids into adult
prisons that we're experienced like in the last couple of
weeks months. We need to kind of get our pushback
(27:15):
and our campaigns. We need to understand what we're asking
for it's not just what we're against because right now
the government, I guess they're not brave, they're not bold,
They we don't want to be ambitious on First Nations justice,
and so we have a very we need to think
about who we're appealing to in terms of like voters
in this country. Yes, six point two million people voted yes,
But I don't think all of those people are there
(27:37):
on when we think about like youth incarceration and what
does it mean for our kids that have been taken
away at the rate that they've been taken away. So
I think there's a lot of re education that we
need to do and understand, Like it's not about the
same leaders that have been at the front, Like we
need to think about it different way, and we need
to show them and demonstrate that our communities are standing
up because we hold the moral high ground. This is
our land, it's still our land. And so I don't
(27:59):
know where this is going, but like I love it.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I'm sure everyone that's listening you agree that there's a
lot that they can take from this year and they
can make their own decisions and what they want to
do or what they what they're what are you interested
in what are you reading? Like? Can they can I
listen to a podcast? Is her book they should pick up?
What's some really tangible practical things before you given to.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
A bunch of people over the last couple of weeks
is actually some readings by Ardie Mary Graham. Okay, I
love this and particularly thinking about the role of indigenous people,
of Aboriginal people and us as like runners and managers
of our own country and what is our kind of
politics and how how do we create power? And she
(28:44):
talks about our role as an indigenous person and talking
about how you know, it's just it's like she's called
like autonomous regard, like the idea that we have obligations
to our communities. But if you're an Aboriginal person that
grew up in country, then you accept that obligation, whether
that obligation is staying at the forefront of a political
campaign or looking after twenty babies like you play your
(29:07):
role with in community because we are collective, I think
globally we're in this space. And this is why this
appeals to me so much that like, read everything, watch
every video that she's in. She's our most amazing philosopher.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
So doctor Mary grant for people don't know who is
an adjunct to social professor at the School of Political Science,
International Relations, Philosophy, and Psychology departments at uq A. Got
that right or yes, it's a mouthful. Aunt Mary has
been part of the Black Card for thirteen years and
a lot of people, about twenty three thousand people that
(29:39):
are Black Card training have had the privilege to either
be in person with her, be through the screen and
hear her talk about everything from autonomous regard to aberish
or logic. She has a paper that she's about to publish.
I had to look at it eldership and leadership, so
there's a lot there. I'll share something with you.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah. No. Also, it's this peace right looking at this
craziness that's going over in the US and the rejection
of that style of politics within Australia. People are fearful
of that, fearful of the idea that Dutton could act
like Trump and destroy some of the things in the
places that we hold dear. But we need to think
about what political leadership is. And you know, people talk
(30:22):
like I'm a Marxist, I'm from the left, right wing,
I'm a populist or whatever, like listen and read Aarni
Mary Graham and think about Indigenous world views and understand
that we created some of the most successful social orders
and political contexts in this world and they still exist.
And like, I feel like if not indigenous people understood
(30:44):
that from our elders, then they would see like the
pathway to solving the climate crisis, to thinking about the
end of capitalism, that indigenous peoples have the solution to this.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Oh my goodness, what an amazing way to finish up this.
Youn Annie Mary Graham. You got to google her. She's
a combomary woman living on her country, on the Golden
chris on Jugen Beer country that you can bear language
speaking group, I should say. But also there's a lot
there that I could put in the show notes. With
a lot of the stuff that Anny Mary has published.
(31:15):
One thing that she says is that Aboriginal people ran
an entire country not that long ago, and we ran
this country without any outside interference, without the need for prisons,
police or armies. We never invaded our neighbors in our
whole history of living here. And you refer to us
as a primitive savage hunter gatherer society, and who's invading her.
(31:38):
So look on that note says it's been so deadly
to yarn with you. We'll do a part two because
then we can't get straight into what does this first
nation's climate justice mean and look like? And I'm sure
there's a podcast in that, yes, too Deadly. Look all
you love listening and watching so much to take out
of this yarn, and I'm going to leave it with
(31:58):
you to ponder with and hopefully continue your learning and
all the different things that we've been yarning about. Read
the show notes, have a look what any mayor is doing,
or even the black card dot com dodau you can
see what she does through the work that we do
of rolling out training across the country. So thank you,
my sister having for come back until next time. By
(32:20):
for now. If you'd like any more info on today's guest,
please visit our show notes in the episode description. A
big shout out to all you Deadly Mob and allies
who continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your
feedback means the world. You can rate and review the
podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to our
(32:42):
socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd
love to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman podcast
is produced by Clint Curtis
Black Cast, Unite our voices. Black Magic Women Podcast acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land we have recorded this
episode on. We also acknowledge traditional owners of the land
where you, the listener of youer are tuning in from.
We would like to pay our respects to our elders
past and present and acknowledged that this always was Aboriginal
(00:25):
land and always will be Aboriginal land.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mandanara Bail.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Hey you mob, Welcome back to another episode of Black
Magic Women. I am kind of in two minds about
this year. I'm like, what are we going to yearn about?
Because twenty minutes is not a lot of time. So
I'm like, should we do part one apart two? I
think we'll end up doing part two all right, So
we'll try and get through as much as we can
in terms of the work that you do in community systs,
(01:02):
all the different hats you where and even some of
your your family that are my family. I don't know
where this yard is going to go, but that's what
I love about the format of this show. So I'm
gonna hand over to you so deadly to catch up
with you. I've run into you now twice in like
last week here on Yagura Country. We've kind of just
(01:22):
bumped into each other at the Human Rights sum up,
which has been really deadly. But for people that don't
know who you are, can you just do a little intro,
your name, your molbourne, a little bit about where you
grew up.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, so my name is Larisa Baldwin Roberts and I'm
proud which were wible woman. Grew up on country in Lizmore,
but you know, big, big country in the Northern Rivers
and it's an amazing place to grow up in, hanging
out Lismore and Nimben and that sort of stuff with
your kids and out at Gunda and those types of things.
But all my mob is all the Roberts mob, the
(01:54):
biggest more going down in northern New South Wales. And
I work, as I say, I'm an organizer campaign. I've
had lots of different titles of led the largest political
organization in the country, which was get Up, but I
have moved on from there and now not just set
up because it's been around for a while, but I
head up some research projects called passing the Message Dick.
(02:16):
It's the research director looking at how we persuade people
around rights and justice and transformative change and kind of
that big picture thinking. And you know how voters in
this country or not Indigenous people in this country not
just how they understand us, but how do you get
them to vote on the issues that matter to us.
And excitingly, just this week we've formally been registered as
(02:36):
a corporation, so First Nations led campaigning organizing. We want
to build movements for big systemic change and you know
it's something that doesn't get a lot of resource and
I think you know, over my years of campaigning and organizing,
people would know me from different campaigns around climate change,
which is still really important, and supporting mob across the country,
(02:57):
big gas campaigns to stop cracking and since twenty ten
there hasn't been a gas field that has come to reduction.
To be walking with traditional owners five of those big
front lines for a really long time. But yeah, pushing
through legislation on cultural aage, sacred sites acts, getting stuff
done with people in the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Do you reckon it's from your upbringing within your family,
community and culture that has kind of driven you or
led you to the work that you're doing, or is
there anyone in particular in your family that you've kind
of been inspired by. You You're like, you know, I'm
going to do what they're doing, because seriously, is a
(03:33):
lot of us in our communities, you know, would say
that to some degree we do carry out cultural and
family obligations or community obligations, but you're kind of doing
things on a mass level. So a lot of us,
you know, some of us don't want to do things
in community. And you know, look after twenty kids because
someone's in jail, I don't know, right, you know what
(03:55):
I'm talking about all the trauma within our families and communities.
But yeah, how did you how did you get into
this kind of work as a community organizer?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I mean, I think this is the similarities between us, right,
It's just like what did our old people do? What
did our fathers do? My dad was a big campaigner
and he spent a lot of time. He was the
first regional chairperson of the Regional Land Counselor in the
Northern Rivers and he was really instrumental in kind of
the big land Roads movement fifty years ago. My older
(04:29):
brother talks about, you know, kind of the big rallies
on the back of trucks that they did through Sydney
growing up in Redfern because they had to go down
there because you know, they're on rations.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That's where they met. They congregated in redl.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
They were part of that Red Fern generation that believed
like we've got to do this ourselves, We've got to
set up you know that those were the people that
set up the legal services, that set up the health community,
that set up community radio, all these types of things.
And you know, to me growing up and hearing those stories,
like I loved it. I love that listening to the
story of Kabui, which is the you know, our Ooriginal
(05:01):
mission out the back of Kyagul is more, but you know,
and the walk off from Cabbastree Island and why they
did that and why you know uncle Lyle he's very
senior men, one of the last fully initiated elders in
Bundelung country and you know him flying the Aboriginal flag
for the first time on Lismore City Hall and why
he did it. And just like I didn't think about
it in terms of a way of like this is
(05:23):
protest or campaigning or activism, and I didn't really know
the full stories of like, you know, they the first
day of morning and there's a down. If you go
look at the records and stuff like that, there's like
a petition with five hundred signatures on it, and it's
like that was the day of the mission movement when
you had to go the protector to try and get
off the mission, and they had signatures of five hundred
(05:44):
people from all these different missions saying we deserve our
rights and we're going to fight for them, and they
were you know, Dadd used to tell me stories about
the big you know, gathering places that Kabawei and Kabawei
for us means a place of full in plenty, and
so old people walked off and they're like, now we're
going to sit up here and we're going to stay
on country, escape in the violence at Cabatry by the police.
(06:04):
And so hearing those stories and you're just like you
see the photos of the big congregations, and then Dad
would tell us the stories of like we'd have this
church gathering inviting all these non indigenous people, but we
were scheming to get our land back, you know, and
just like hear all those stories and you just love them.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
An ulterior motive.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, it's funny because my story of like coming to
Brisbane is so much around like meeting the Watson family
and feeling like, oh, I got family here as well,
just like running around like sleeping on Uncle Ross's couch
and stuff like that. And I didn't know the connection
even back then. But it's also strange thinking about like
(06:41):
the political action of these families. It was just like
if you had a family business that went for that
long and that was that successfully and it was like legislation,
get a weird rid of protection acts, winning you know,
cultural heritage legislation, ripping down the fence of Parliament when
they stuffed up the Native Title acting quins On, like
all this sort of stuff. And you understand like what
(07:01):
they were doing when they were young people in Didney,
challenging from that place of colonization about where we were
going and thinking. And I was having this conversation with
my cousin, Rhoda Robertson saying, you know, we were talking
about the kind of amazing things that they did and
just like you know, people think they're incredible political thinkers.
And she stopped me and she said, you know what,
our people were not political thinkers, they were political doers.
(07:24):
Nothing got in their way. They didn't have a dollar
between them. You know, they all went down to Redfern
and because you know, you had to work bring money
back home because big families and they had to feed them.
And in Queensland, northern New South Wales if you were
living on rations but you weren't getting much else to feed,
big families like that. So a lot of the young
men and women went down and we're doing that, like
working all the factories there, or tent boxing. I love
(07:46):
the stories about the amazing like bunge lung fighters and
that sort of stuff, and all the work that they
were doing tent boxing, and then all the kind of
mission gatherings that they would have after it. Just people
from everywhere, right.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And that's my dad used to talk about this with
the Land Council.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Dad said that he never got paid for being the
chairperson the a Awgal chair of the New South Wales
Average Non Land Cancer of the State Body, the Peak Body.
He got an allowance, a travel allowance and he got
a phone or something right when phones came in. So
we've got a little travel allowance, but no salary. So
he started managing black bands, taking black bands out to community,
(08:23):
and through that he was building relationships. Here was a
bloody Murray. For people that don't realize the difference between
a Murray and a Kury. It's like if you wear
a blues jersey, we know where each other stands. So
my dad was a Queenslander, my mum was a Koury,
and his dad living in Redfern being voted in by
the people of New South Wales to represent them wouldn't
(08:44):
happen tod Asis.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Right, No, But I think my dad was a good
schemer on that.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
For your dad, that's exactly it. Through relationship building and
then seeing you know, my dad obviously had a way
about him and that was through my granny Mook.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And it's also thing around the It was an approach
like I used to talk about Dad around you know,
kind of all the work that you do with uncle,
like City and some of the older grandfathers and that
sort of stuff around protecting and locking up all of that,
you know, nightcap and that sort of stuff. Wine one
from logging because it was happening really bad, and they
were talking about how they would just get deals from
(09:20):
like work out with this political party, what they were
going to give them this political party, and they would
play the Nationals and the Libs and label all against
each other, and they're just like whatever the best deal was.
And then they would talk to everyone, talked all the
white fellows shifting their votes around it. If you cared
about it, you got to do it this way. But
I just feel like we live in a different time now,
Like you can understand my uncle. Like I remember looking
back through photos. You know, Dad passed away like three
(09:41):
years ago now, and there's so many photos of like
your older sisters when they're kids, like dad and your dad,
And I was like, I don't know, I remember being there.
I don't remember these photos taken. It's just like it
was wild the way they approached things, like they was
doing activism, but they were big strategic thinkers and they
had a way about bringing people together. And I think
it's like a lot of people a young mob asked
(10:04):
me like how did I get these jobs? I'm like,
I don't know what's nature or nurture because it was
just kind of what I knew how to do. And
then I don't know, I've never applied for a job
in my life. I've just you know, kind of worked
through thinking about what mob want to do, how we
want to move forward. And you know, I now know
that I get a lot of that from my dad,
(10:25):
but I didn't really fully know until like late, you know,
in the last few years.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Really, So it's community really that drives you. Yeah, motivates
you in terms of where you feel that you can
best support.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
It's also where you know, how you're saying, how like
this idea around how you grew up, Like I grew
up in Lismore, like you know, big we were poor,
but I don't think I realized until we were like
you know, kids were talking about going to university and
then I seeing how much it costs, must like you
can freaking afford that?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Like what are you doing? Oh, going on a holiday? Right?
People would say, Oh, we're going to go to wherever Bali, Fiji,
And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, my god, we've never
been on a plane. Does it well, rich, Yes, they've
got a passport. We didn't even have birth certificate. Sis. Yeah.
I don't know why my mom didn't register our births.
And when I think about it now, I can only
(11:18):
assume that it was to protect us from being taken.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
I mean there's a lot of that as well.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Ninety ninety six my birth certificate was registered and that's
when we need to pass port to go over to
old and dance. My dad actually, right up until the
day passed was still working behind the microphone. Yeah, I know.
February he was on air doing his let's talk show
(11:44):
on NINEFM for the best Country music and Murray Music.
And then he passed in April. Like he he literally
was of service to his community. It felt so fast,
I know, I know, But do you think you can
do this for the rest of your life? Like he's
the longevity in this work that you do.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
You know. How I feel about this is like I
don't care if I don't get paid to do this
or not. This is what I'm gonna do. And I
think it goes back to it's like what is the
actualization and who you are as the First Nations, as
an Aboriginal woman, as a whige of a wire woman,
Like there's a part of you know, who we are
as whigeal Whi women is like we are law makers
(12:27):
and men were law enforces and there's a role here
around how we think about strategies and like you know,
culturally clever people came from our clan and like you know,
we are five people bring people together across the well Bungelung,
but you can bear nations as well. There was so
much interconnection, like you know, we talk about Bunnia festivals
and that sort of stuff and those song lines, like
(12:48):
that's some really strong politics in that country. And even
when I think like people here from people like Honey Lilla,
like Honey Mary Graham and stuff like that, and just
like everything they say about politics, like you've heard this
story before, but like this is so right for this
time right now. And I just feel like, you know,
when I grew up, I never had any negative sense
(13:12):
of identity around who I was. And it's an aboriginal girl.
I just never like we didn't have money. Yes, we
grew up on like in housing commissions stuff like that.
We had fire.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So did everyone else up in you exactly that had.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You know, well, no, that's it. And so I was
just like when I was thinking about, you know, I
gotta go to university and get a job, and I
was like, wait, that's not a pathway for me. So
I'm like looking at a lot of what are my
aunties and uncle's doing. I remember Annie Bertha Kapinne pulling
me into the Neundia Aboriginal Health Council and I was
like fifteen or sixteen at that point, going around doing minutes,
(13:46):
sending them. We went around ever in New South Wales
to their communities. Then people forget how big the optional
population is in northern Eastela. It's massive. And I just
I remember learning being like, are you serious, like this
blot didn't even finish primary school and they started the
health service. Yeah, hell yeah, and just thinking about, well,
(14:08):
I don't need to freaking go to university because I
can do this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
And I love the fact that we had people that
kind of showed us then led by example within our community.
Dad was a saying why didn't you go to university?
For go work your way up? And I know all
your friends where we looking for a job and you'll
already be earning more money than he was right. Yeah,
he was usually always right Dad. It's just what I
(14:38):
was going to ask, is the election now we've kind
of a new chapter for the next four years. Anyways,
there's a new chapter. Do you feel that there's going
to be I don't know a shift, just the fact
that Albernezi just got in again. There's a lot that's
kind of happening or kind of brewing underneath the surface.
Has a lot of hatred, a lot of discrimination, a
(14:59):
lot of racism. It's rearing its ugly head again in Australia,
conceal over social media with an Zac Day and beautiful honey, Joy,
Mirth Murphy, you know, and the Melbourne storms now saying
that it was an administrative error.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Like.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Literally an administrative error that they miscommunicated to any Joy
that they did want her to do it, but they
were going to change your time. So they're back pedaling
now right because of the backlash. But even the fact
that the Abasginal Health Service cut the funding their partnership,
so financially it's hit the Melbourne stone on where it
hurts and now they're back pedaling. So there's a lot
(15:34):
going on in this country right now. What are some
of the kind of positives like what keeps you going,
what inspis, what motivates you, what gets you out of
bed despite all of the other things that kind of
either make you feel exhausted or even a little bit.
I don't know. Sometimes I just feel like we got
to keep doing this.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, We've got to keep doing this, but.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
No negotiable coming from our families.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Coming from our families.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I think it's like, do we got to mark which again,
this is my kids forty degree heat, Mum, yes you do.
Just get the little I've got the trolley thing, you know,
the beach things, buggies I carry the kids.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Can go for a swim after. But you know what
I think is and the referendum was also bad.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
I don't think that's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
This is still yeah, And I think where I'm at
right now because we've just moved out to start a
First Nations campaigning and movement building organization, and you know,
there was a lot of understanding what's happened in the
last election and where which way that was headed, and
where we came from the referendum. Just be like, we
need to do this campaigning and how we fight for
(16:48):
justice on our own terms, not just responding to what
a government or a political leader or egos are asking
us to respond to. And I think for me, I
have I haven't actually talked about this publicly before, but
I had a lot like I consume campaigns and like
a campaign all the time. I've won lots and lots
of campaigns understanding how you win. And the reality was
(17:12):
is that the referendum was lost at the beginning of
the year of the referendum, and it was this moment
of people are going to come for me saying this,
but it was this moment of saying, like, why are
we doing this? Like six months out from the referendum,
the campaigning was redlining and people are saying that right now,
But it's just like, but why didn't you stop the referendum?
(17:34):
The Machinery Act hadn't been pushed forward, and it's all
about egos, like we're gonna get there. But also there
was such a disconnect that we needed to bring in
all these non Indigenous campaign experts who understood how to
win campaigns. And that's like true on certain types of campaigns,
but the reality is it's very different to make the
case for First Nations justice and the right space holders
(17:55):
of this land and that requires and you would know
this in terms of the way that you know, like
you know, as a young campaigner, your dad would ask
me to come in and be on the radio station.
He'd put me up and ask me a million different
questions about why that felt a different way or why
we'd made this political decision. You're just testing you all
the time and understanding the reality that we exist in
like this country. It's not a rejection of First Nations people,
(18:18):
but you can put the constitution aside. People feel really
conservative about changing the constitution and that's something that we
need to understand and we've unpacked it with a lot
of more because it's not just about a rejection of us,
because there's a lot of trauma in a national rejection
and how much I don't think we talk about how
violent that campaign was. We kind of just brush it
under the rug. And we've been having those conversations in
community around what actually happened. But the reality is there
(18:41):
is a way to persuade people in how we seek
justice for ourselves, and that is around not seating the
moral high ground. It's about having the right messages at
the front and the people who are talking from community
and talking with authority. And also the fact that we
can't step out on political campaigns if our communities don't
know what the campaign is about, because whether it's a
(19:03):
good idea or not, you have to understand and hold
empathy for the amount of government not just failures, but
outright harm that has been done to our governments by
successive governments on purpose. And so when you come out
with a government program and you understand how our communities
react to it, like part of it is a trauma response,
like is this what do we lose if we're going
(19:24):
to gain this thing? But also it never feels like
you don't get anything for free, and so like all
the rest of this come to catch to this, Yeah,
that's it, no, but this is how people feel, right,
And so when we were talking to people in the referendum,
thing that really made me feel no good was just
like so many community members just didn't think it was
a silver bullet, but they would say, and we had
(19:45):
conversations right across the country, if we lose this, we're
going backwards, and there's a reality within that. But I
just don't think people understood how far the vote was
going to go. But also the other thing was is
that this kind of reign of terror of like the
amount of racism acts on our families, attacks on our communities,
(20:07):
the winebacks, the attacks on cultural heritage, they've ripped the
legislation out of the wa Parliament for cultural heritage protection
like that. That's if you're a people that believe that
you belong to this land and you're going to rip
out the legislation that protects some minor part of it.
There's just there's so much harm being done by that.
And we didn't have a protection mechanism and a defensive campaign.
(20:28):
We didn't push back, you know. And I say this
as well, it's not just about what the far right
was saying and people like just In Price and Warren Mundane.
It's about the things that at the Prime Minister said.
You remember, like the first one of the first things
that he said at the beginning of the year when
there was a protest around Treaty or Voice which comes
first in in Victoria, he said, they're just activists making
(20:50):
noise something to that effect. But he dismissed them. He
dismissed in community that there could be a different opinion
when we hadn't had a proper yarn in the country
about it. So people were having their opinions and this
figurehead shut them down and that's not the way that
we do things, and so it's just going to create
more tension. The other part is there was a point
in the campaign where he came out and he said, look,
this isn't about racism. There has never been a campaign
(21:13):
about First Nations people in this land that has not
been about racism. It's always about racism. But the impact
of that is we couldn't have a conversation about racism.
And you can't talk about racism if you can't talk
about a displacement. And I'm sorry, you can't make basically
the case to Australian voters that there's some harm that
needs to be you know, there's some redress that has
to be happening. You have to tell the truth otherwise
(21:35):
our community don't believe you have the right solution. But
also this country doesn't believe that it needs to do anything.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
So that's where I'm at right now, especially Victoria. Oh
use one example, You've got the Truth Telling Commission YURUK
and that's the first truth and justice kind of yeah,
it's the first public of commission in Australian history, right yeah.
But then they've got the treaty on the other side
(22:02):
and the first People's Assembly where hopefully and this is
from deadly professor, thanks to around Hunter, I just call
your sister. She's saying that with the recommendations handed down
from YURUK, they'll hand that to the treaty mob to
then implement. So I thought that was pretty deadly. And
(22:23):
then with Queensland when the Liberal government got in, the
Truth Commission was defunded immediately. So where to from here, Like,
what do you think is going to happen over the
next couple of years, What should we be doing, where
should we be focusing our energy? Maybe it could be
a message for a lot of our non indigenous listeners
that are listening. What would you say to them? How
(22:43):
can they? And I deliver training every day and I'm
having conversations with people like you and they always want
to know what can they do.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
I think there's a lot of opportunity, but there's a
lot of threats as well that are out there. I
think that when we talk about, you know, the first
victims of the referendum were the NT and Queensland based truth,
truth and treaty processes. Those being winened up wound up
is very significant. I think we have to think about
what has just happened in the last election, Like, yes,
(23:12):
the preference deals that happened, and it's not telling the
whole story. Labour only got thirty four percent of the vote,
but it's a significant win. But the opposition isn't coming
back anytime soon. The Greens, I think, will come back
because a lot of their preferences flowed to labor. But
the point is we have an outward majority of a
labor government that doesn't want to do anything ambitious. I
(23:34):
don't know if you've seen on election night. I think
it was the treasure of Jim Chalmer's got up and
he said, you know, we're focused on reconciliation and closing
the gap. Someone said today, like the amount of failure
is under closing the gap. Why do we still have
this thing? It has failed more than at Sick. At
Sick did more to benefit our communities than closing the gap.
(23:55):
It's not working because we're having this measly mouthed conversation
about closing the gap instead of talking about his report
every year on the systemic racism in the health service
and you know social services delivered by the state and
territory in federal governments. We're going backwards on lots of things.
The other thing I'd say is, like I always thought
within the referendum and the Voice de Parliament. Like I
(24:18):
campaigned against the original kind of constitutional recognition because I
was like, what is five words? Yeah, Like who cares
about five words in a constitution? But I did get
on board in the referendum campaign because I was like, Okay,
we're here, and I don't want blackfellows to lose, and
so for me, I'm all in. But I really believe
that we need mechanisms to talk to each other. We
need to stop centering government at the kind of center
(24:40):
of everything that we do. They're not the decision maker,
and we need to kind of think about the processes
around what does self determination look like, because you don't
need permission for self determination, you don't need permission to
enact your sovereignty. And so I think about actually post referendum,
you know, people saying reconciliation is dead. But I also
think this idea of just like appealing to white structures
(25:03):
of power is also kind of it doesn't work for us.
And there are ways that activism worked for us in
the kind of the you know, fifties and sixties when
we actually did win things and yes, the people got
flogged moored by the police, and that sort of stuff.
But we tangibly made gains in the eighties, we tangibly
made gains, and like we have been on this slow
kind of bleed backwards. And so for me, I'm just like, well,
(25:24):
let's use this moment of disruption and work out how
we go forward. But within that, I do think whatever
kind of whatever shape these treaty processes take, maybe they
take the process of just like service agreements. I don't
think that. I think the aspirations of our communities is
so much more. But if you end up in Victoria
(25:44):
in a space where all money that is for aberge
and torture and the people goes directly to us and
we make the decisions, you watch that gap close. So
I think there is there's a way in that we
have to And we now have a very funded far
right gener now just handed out money to the far right,
handed out money to advance Australia. We've got to get
our kind of ducks in order to push back on
this stuff. And it's not okay to just be silent
(26:06):
when football codes or you know, idiots are in booing
the welcome to country. Understand, Like that's not just a
cultural And I hate how people say this is like, oh,
this cultural will, we don't want to talk about it.
I'm like, this is racism. This is the racism and
basically setting the standards more. It's much more insidious than this,
Like what you're trying to do is actually remove Indigenous
(26:28):
rights in this country and understand that that's what they're doing.
The people mouthing off around Australia Day this year saying like, oh,
we voted against this, you can't have this treaty process,
Like this was never on the ballot. But Australians, like
you know, the far right, they think like we're going
to remove these rights. People don't understand that. You know,
the Queensland government is talking about ripping out different Native
(26:51):
toild negotiation WA government before they went to election, they said,
let's get rid of the right to negotiate. You know,
these are significant things. Sacred Sites Act in NT just
the other week being pulled up range of programs funding
all the amount of like moving our kids into adult
prisons that we're experienced like in the last couple of
weeks months. We need to kind of get our pushback
(27:15):
and our campaigns. We need to understand what we're asking
for it's not just what we're against because right now
the government, I guess they're not brave, they're not bold,
They we don't want to be ambitious on First Nations justice,
and so we have a very we need to think
about who we're appealing to in terms of like voters
in this country. Yes, six point two million people voted yes,
But I don't think all of those people are there
(27:37):
on when we think about like youth incarceration and what
does it mean for our kids that have been taken
away at the rate that they've been taken away. So
I think there's a lot of re education that we
need to do and understand, Like it's not about the
same leaders that have been at the front, Like we
need to think about it different way, and we need
to show them and demonstrate that our communities are standing
up because we hold the moral high ground. This is
our land, it's still our land. And so I don't
(27:59):
know where this is going, but like I love it.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I'm sure everyone that's listening you agree that there's a
lot that they can take from this year and they
can make their own decisions and what they want to
do or what they what they're what are you interested
in what are you reading? Like? Can they can I
listen to a podcast? Is her book they should pick up?
What's some really tangible practical things before you given to.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
A bunch of people over the last couple of weeks
is actually some readings by Ardie Mary Graham. Okay, I
love this and particularly thinking about the role of indigenous people,
of Aboriginal people and us as like runners and managers
of our own country and what is our kind of
politics and how how do we create power? And she
(28:44):
talks about our role as an indigenous person and talking
about how you know, it's just it's like she's called
like autonomous regard, like the idea that we have obligations
to our communities. But if you're an Aboriginal person that
grew up in country, then you accept that obligation, whether
that obligation is staying at the forefront of a political
campaign or looking after twenty babies like you play your
(29:07):
role with in community because we are collective, I think
globally we're in this space. And this is why this
appeals to me so much that like, read everything, watch
every video that she's in. She's our most amazing philosopher.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
So doctor Mary grant for people don't know who is
an adjunct to social professor at the School of Political Science,
International Relations, Philosophy, and Psychology departments at uq A. Got
that right or yes, it's a mouthful. Aunt Mary has
been part of the Black Card for thirteen years and
a lot of people, about twenty three thousand people that
(29:39):
are Black Card training have had the privilege to either
be in person with her, be through the screen and
hear her talk about everything from autonomous regard to aberish
or logic. She has a paper that she's about to publish.
I had to look at it eldership and leadership, so
there's a lot there. I'll share something with you.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah. No. Also, it's this peace right looking at this
craziness that's going over in the US and the rejection
of that style of politics within Australia. People are fearful
of that, fearful of the idea that Dutton could act
like Trump and destroy some of the things in the
places that we hold dear. But we need to think
about what political leadership is. And you know, people talk
(30:22):
like I'm a Marxist, I'm from the left, right wing,
I'm a populist or whatever, like listen and read Aarni
Mary Graham and think about Indigenous world views and understand
that we created some of the most successful social orders
and political contexts in this world and they still exist.
And like, I feel like if not indigenous people understood
(30:44):
that from our elders, then they would see like the
pathway to solving the climate crisis, to thinking about the
end of capitalism, that indigenous peoples have the solution to this.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Oh my goodness, what an amazing way to finish up this.
Youn Annie Mary Graham. You got to google her. She's
a combomary woman living on her country, on the Golden
chris on Jugen Beer country that you can bear language
speaking group, I should say. But also there's a lot
there that I could put in the show notes. With
a lot of the stuff that Anny Mary has published.
(31:15):
One thing that she says is that Aboriginal people ran
an entire country not that long ago, and we ran
this country without any outside interference, without the need for prisons,
police or armies. We never invaded our neighbors in our
whole history of living here. And you refer to us
as a primitive savage hunter gatherer society, and who's invading her.
(31:38):
So look on that note says it's been so deadly
to yarn with you. We'll do a part two because
then we can't get straight into what does this first
nation's climate justice mean and look like? And I'm sure
there's a podcast in that, yes, too Deadly. Look all
you love listening and watching so much to take out
of this yarn, and I'm going to leave it with
(31:58):
you to ponder with and hopefully continue your learning and
all the different things that we've been yarning about. Read
the show notes, have a look what any mayor is doing,
or even the black card dot com dodau you can
see what she does through the work that we do
of rolling out training across the country. So thank you,
my sister having for come back until next time. By
(32:20):
for now. If you'd like any more info on today's guest,
please visit our show notes in the episode description. A
big shout out to all you Deadly Mob and allies
who continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your
feedback means the world. You can rate and review the
podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to our
(32:42):
socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd
love to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman podcast
is produced by Clint Curtis
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