August 11, 2024 • 31 mins
In this episode of Bleeding Daylight, Rodney Olsen welcomes Allen C. Paul, a seasoned musician, author, and advocate for Christian creatives, to discuss the intersection of faith and the creative arts. Allen shares his journey from a childhood surrounded by music, influenced by his mother, a music teacher, and his father's diverse record collection, to navigating the complexities of being a Christian creative. He explores the tension between pursuing a career in the arts while maintaining a strong Christian faith, offering insights into how he balances these aspects of his life.
Allen also delves into the broader topic of creativity, arguing that all people are inherently creative, made in the image of a creative God. He emphasises the importance of recognising one's identity beyond just their talents, highlighting the need for Christian creatives to ground themselves in their faith first and foremost. Through personal stories, including an intriguing tale about his resignation and unexpected promotion within his church, Allen provides valuable lessons on embracing creativity without compromising faith.
WEBLINKS God and Gigs Allen C. Paul
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome and thanks for listening.
If you're on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok or other social media platforms, why not connect with us there?
You'll find all the links you need at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:32):
That's also where you'll find dozens of other episodes with some remarkable and inspirational people and stories.
Is it possible to thrive in the creative world without compromising your faith?
Are we all creative?
Today's guest has years of experience ballencing his life as a professional musician with his Christian faith.
(01:03):
Allen C.
Paul's journey is a testament to the delicate ballence between ministry, creative life and family.
After resigning from his pastoral role only to receive a promotion, he has thrived as a musician, author and advocate for creatives.
He describes himself in four words, husband, father, creative, forgiven.
(01:26):
He is the author of God and Gigs, Succeed as a Musician Without Sacrificing Your Faith, and produces the podcast, The God and Gigs Show.
He is on a mission to help Christian creatives excel in their craft while maintaining their faith.
I'm so pleased to have him as my guest today.
(01:46):
Allen, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Rodney, thank you so much for having me on the show.
I'm looking forward to this conversation for a while.
Firstly, can you confirm for me that jazz is definitely the music that we'll be listening to in heaven?
Oh, wow.
I can, oh, can I confirm?
(02:06):
I would love to confirm that and say it would be the only one.
I know that the music in heaven will be more than we can ever imagine, more creative than we can ever imagine.
So I can only imagine that jazz will have to be one of them because I believe it's one of the most creative and one of the most God-gifted genres just because of what it came from and so many different things that poured into that particular genre.
(02:30):
But I can't confirm or deny, I just hope that it will be one of the ones that we'll hear.
I certainly hope so.
Tell me a little bit about that musical journey of yours.
When did music first grab your interest?
Well, I have to go back to before my memories because my mom was my music teacher, and so obviously she was there first.
She says that I was trying to play the piano at around two or three years old, humming Sarah Smile and trying to reach up to the keys and playing around age three or four, I guess is when I might have started formal lessons.
(03:01):
This is all, again, based on home movies and her talking to me.
It grabbed my attention from the beginning because as I mentioned, my mother was a music teacher, is a music teacher, still plays at her church.
That is where I got my start playing classical all the way through high school and the very beginning of college.
But jazz, of course, was also trying to like nipping at my heels and started to fill my head around age of 15.
(03:24):
But as far as the beginnings, yes, my mother as a music teacher and my dad, not being a musician, but just having an incredible record collection filled with Stevie Wonder and James Taylor and Harry Chapin and Paul Simon and just any kind of music you can imagine were all in that record collection.
So we grew up around music playing on the record player.
So yeah, it grabbed me from the get-go because it was always in the house and it was just a way that we functioned.
(03:49):
It was part of the fabric of our family.
And of course, as you follow in those footsteps of playing music but also listening to a wide variety of music, I guess that's a big part of being a musician as well is not confining yourself.
Now, obviously, I've declared my interest in jazz music, but I have a very eclectic taste in music and I guess it would be the same for you.
(04:11):
Being someone who's a musician, you can see the musicality in a wide range of genres.
A hundred percent.
I've always told people that whether it's jazz, blues, rock, I'm very much probably we're probably in the same boat.
As long as it's good music, it's good music.
The labels to me are needed sometimes just to help people figure out, well, what do you do?
(04:33):
So if you ask me, am I a jazz musician?
It just gives you something to start with.
But after you begin creating or after you begin listening, hopefully, the label of what you're listening to falls away and it's just, what does it make you feel?
What does it make you think?
How does it affect you emotionally?
What is being spoken?
What is being sung?
What is being played?
It's so important that I'm talking to both music consumers and music creators that we get down to the meat of what is being shared.
(05:03):
That should not be limited by the labels.
I mean, I very much remember going into music school feeling kind of like a fish out of water because my first it was classical, but I was trying to get into the jazz school.
And if I was getting into the jazz school, I was really interested in getting more R&B and gospel obviously was starting to enter my picture even more.
And so it was kind of like, okay, am I allowed to put all these influences into my studies?
(05:29):
It was kind of like a weird place because as musicians, we're supposed to be well-rounded.
We're supposed to be able to play a lot of different things.
But in the academic setting, sometimes that doesn't fit.
I hope that more people in terms of just a listening audience and people who are listening to whatever playlist will be open to musicians being much more creative and not boxed in by labels or particular commercial interests that keep things only in one particular label or genre, because I think it's so much more creativity that we should be afforded.
(05:59):
There seems to have been for quite some time, a tension between music, musical expression, and one's faith.
Even in the popular music setting, there's a lot of people who we hear that their start in music was singing in church or playing in church.
And then they've walked right away from faith, somehow believing that the two are not compatible.
(06:23):
Tell me, when did you start to notice that tension between music, playing music well, and faith?
That's a great question.
I would love to just even mention the idea of all the musicians and creatives that start in the church.
If you're not in the musical world, you don't realize that pretty much every pop artist, every musician you've listened to pretty much either has a backing band or a studio musician or somebody, a producer, pretty much all of it, to the Western world at least, there is going to be some type of church musician that was involved in it.
(06:57):
Just because that is the nature of where the church has such a huge influence on music in general.
In terms of me specifically, because I always played in church growing up, I think the tensions probably started if there was one, right around when I was getting ready to graduate from college and I was also performing or ministering at my church.
(07:18):
We had just finished a short tour with my college band and the band kind of broke up.
We didn't really make it and I was just feeling like, okay, this music life is not fitting with what I feel like a family man or a ministry associate or a minister should be doing.
So I at that time felt like, okay, well maybe I shouldn't be playing this type of secular music just because I don't have time for it and it doesn't fit.
(07:45):
It wasn't necessarily a moral decision at the time, but it became more and more where I felt like it was wrong for me to do and play certain things.
That tension personally started right around that time where I started getting more and more involved in ministry.
Of course, you can probably fast forward to realize that I had a change of heart and a change of philosophy and understanding where God really showed me the reason I can have this platform God engaged us because he showed me that all the earth is mine, the fullness thereof, and that there's no music that only belongs to God and only music that belongs to the devil.
(08:18):
That just doesn't exist.
But at the time, I felt like I was falling into that kind of trap of, again, the label, if I'm a Christian musician, I can only play Christian music.
So I dealt with that struggle as I became more and more involved in full-time ministry and it took a lot of faith, a lot of reading, a lot of prayer, and really God kind of just knocked me off my high horse to realize that I was creating a wall that did not exist.
(08:44):
So for other musicians and creatives who are dealing with that, that is exactly why I have a lot of grace for them because maybe you are called to full-time ministry and your heart is not to perform anything else.
And I always say, then do that.
Please do not try to do something that God did not call you to do.
But then also don't judge those who are called to basically what everybody else is doing, which is vocational work in the world, which involves art, music, dance, drama, theater, any of these types of things, which all speak to God's goodness and creative beauty.
(09:18):
And we just have to learn how to walk that line correctly.
And that is an interesting line to walk, isn't it?
Because on one hand, there's music that you can play.
It still glorifies God because it's demonstrating the beauty of music itself.
It's demonstrating the talents and skills that he's given you.
I guess a lot of people who play music well, who perform well, can tend to be put on a pedestal by others.
(09:42):
There's an issue right there of how to battle with the pride if someone is wanting to lift you up beyond what you really should be when God is the one who should be worshipped.
And that one is a hard one because I'm always careful with this when I'm talking to either creators, musicians, anyone that makes it sound like there's a dichotomy between the musician and the creative and everybody else.
(10:06):
We all can be lifted up on a pedestal of our own talent and ability.
Pride, right, is the number one sin that elevates us above God, where we put the pride of self and the pride of life.
And we think for whatever reason that the way we think and what we do makes us the arbiter, the person that can decide things.
(10:29):
So it is easy, obviously, when you're in a creative space then, for people to elevate you and to feed that pride, right?
Because now they're saying, you sing so well, you play so well, you do this.
So it is definitely a vehicle that can be a source where the ego can be fed and you can start to think like, oh, well, I guess I should be able to do whatever I want because people love me.
(10:53):
And it gets to that source of pride and ego and takes you away from God because God should be glorified, number one.
I believe that no one can really handle that glory.
We've seen so many stories of stars, people in all walks of life that get famous, who suddenly are laid low and humbled and bad things happen.
(11:15):
I never want these things to happen, but they seem to happen over and over again in the news.
And I think it's because we're not designed to carry that glory.
Only God is.
In the musical and the creative and the performing arts type of fame, it is very much something we all have to be aware of because God does give us the gift, but we individually as people are a gift, not just the gift that he puts within us.
(11:44):
I've always equated this to like the wrapping paper.
If you take a gift and you take the wrapping paper and you just admire the wrapping paper and never look at what's inside, is that really a valuable gift if you just can look at the wrapping?
And that's what happens with our gifts and our talents.
People look at the wrapping, but they don't look at what's inside.
And God is what put the gift on the inside, the human being inside.
(12:05):
So when we get caught up in the fame and the fortune of the talent and the gifting, we negate and neglect the person inside.
And that person inside is a soul, is a spirit that should be nurtured, that should be understood.
So both on the outside, people looking in and the inside, musicians have to be, and creators and artists in general, have to be super sensitive to that.
(12:27):
They have to be self-aware.
They have to give themselves to God.
They have to give themselves to prayer and understanding that I am not my gift.
I am not my talent.
My identity should hopefully, they all should know this, hopefully they know, it should be in Christ.
And then all those things are added onto them that they can glorify God and bless others.
But yeah, that's a super hard distinction.
(12:48):
Of course, again, with the media and everything else, we tend to blow people up and make them feel like all they are are their talent.
And then if they rely on that, it's a slippery slope that can lead them to destruction.
When we talk about people who are creatives, I guess there's an understanding.
We know what we're talking about, people who are creative, especially in the area of the arts.
And yet, we serve a creative God.
(13:10):
And one of the things that has bothered me for some time is when people tell me, oh, but I'm not creative.
And yet, we're all people who have been made in the image of a creative God.
So what is it about people that if they don't see their creativity in those natural ways that we've been discussing in the arts, in music, that they don't consider themselves to be creative?
(13:35):
They don't consider themselves to be image bearers of a creative God?
I so love this line of questioning that you're sharing because it leads right to something that I just was able to share on the YouVersion app.
I was just able to share a devotional called The Creator's Craft.
And in that devotional, it's just a three-day devotional, super easy to read.
(13:56):
But I start the very first paragraph with, if you're reading this and you think you're not creative, let me explain why.
That's a fallacy.
Because as you just said, if God is the creator and we are made in his image, it is impossible for him to create something in his image that doesn't bear all of the characteristics that he bears.
(14:18):
Now, obviously, we are sub-creators as Tolkien calls us.
He calls us sub-creators.
So we're nowhere close to the person that could speak things that are not as though they weren't speak life and speak all these things.
So we're not God, but we do carry his characteristics.
We do carry a shadow and an ideal that we have the ability to be creative and to then take his creation and make things new.
(14:45):
He didn't just say to the creators, be fruitful and multiply.
He didn't just say to musicians, make beautiful things.
He didn't just say to artists, make beautiful things.
He said to the creation, he said to Adam and Eve, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth, do some things, cultivate, make things more beautiful.
And he gave that mandate to every single person he made.
(15:06):
And that means he gave us the ability to do that.
So whether it's as a mom, as a scientist, as a doctor, our job is to creatively make this world better than we found it using the gifts that God gave us.
And so that is by nature, a creative act.
So I think, again, the media, the way we look at the performing arts, of course, draws most of our attention to that.
(15:28):
But if people don't realize that they have the creative gift of God inside them, they're missing out on a blessing.
I love what you mentioned at the beginning, will there be jazz in heaven?
Well, there will be creativity in heaven.
And I don't think it'll be reserved to just the people who were creative here on earth in the arts.
There will be creativity from everyone because we'll be in the presence of a creative God and he will luxuriate in every single human being's ability to continue to create beauty, even on the other side.
(16:00):
Otherwise, why would he say, and they sing a new song unto the lamb?
Did he write the new song unto the lamb or did we?
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there will be creativity in heaven and every single person that is then redeemed gets to enjoy that gift on that side.
So why not enjoy it on this side as well?
I mentioned in the introduction that you describe yourself by those four words as husband, father, creative, forgiven.
(16:25):
How important is it for us to identify ourselves by something other than just a talent that we have or just a skill that we have?
And you've touched on these earlier, but how important is it for us to actually say, who am I in the view of God, as he views us through Christ, that I'm not just a set of skills or a creative talent?
(16:47):
Well, I'm going to borrow a line from another amazing creator that I just interviewed.
His name is Mickey Smith Jr., but I'm going to borrow his line because I can't say this any better than he did.
Answering the question, who am I?
It's the single most important question you can answer.
But then once you answer it, it does not negate the next question, which is, who is the I am?
(17:09):
If you know who you are, it should not ever take you away from knowing the I am.
When he said that, it rang true for me so much because again, it's so tempting for me to take my identity as an artist, as a musician.
People see me at church or performing and they'll just say, they immediately go to the, oh, it must be so wonderful to be a musician.
(17:32):
I love your playing.
And in my heart, I'm aching, but it's my fault.
If they don't know me as something other than a musician, that's because I've been hiding or not being clear or being open about the other aspects of my life, which is why I start with husband, father, because those two things are the most important parts of my identity in terms of my earthly role.
(17:55):
If people don't know me as a husband and father, they certainly won't respect me as much as a creative if I go to do all these gifting things, but then I've neglected my family and my wife.
The reason why I ended with forgiven is because all three of those depend on me realizing that he's saved me, that he's redeemed me.
So it's so important to me that creators everywhere just understand that your identity is first as a created child of God, and then because you're created, you then can enjoy the creations that you make, that he allows you to make, that he gives you to make, that inspires you to make, to bless God and bless others.
(18:36):
I've gone through a lot, Rodney, I can tell you every sin in the Bible, if it's Moses, David, Abraham, you name one of the patriarchs, I've done everything that they've done, which puts me in pretty good company, right?
In both good and bad ways.
It makes sure that I realize that if God can use those men, flawed as they were, he can use me as flawed as I am.
(18:57):
The gifts and talents are not what gives me the right to call on his name and say, hey, Lord, I've messed up.
Will you please once again remind me of who I am?
I am your child.
I am a royal priesthood, a holy nation.
I am called into your marvelous light.
I am the head and not the tail.
You called me these things.
(19:17):
My behavior at this point does not show me this, but because your grace and mercy and favor, your blood and your sacrifice, I can now enter into the throne of grace.
I have to rely on that because my gifts and my talents will never get me there.
No matter how beautiful I play in church, no matter how many people are blessed, no matter how many people raise their hands, when I walk into the throne room, I do not walk in with a piano.
(19:39):
I do not walk in with a harp.
I do not walk in with a guitar.
I do not walk in with an art brush.
I walk in as myself.
And so we have to be very, very, very, very transparent before the Lord as creators because otherwise it does cloud our thinking.
And I'm not getting into the whole theology of the devil, but most people seem to think that he was some type of angel of ministry of music or something like that.
(20:01):
It's Ezekiel.
And let's just say that didn't work out for him.
So I believe we have to be transparent before the Lord in everything we do.
And that usually means dropping the gifts at the door and just being ourselves.
I hinted at a very interesting story in the introduction, and that is about the day that you handed your resignation to your pastor.
(20:23):
Tell me about that day.
What happened and what sprang from that?
Oh, my gosh.
Every time I mention it, it's like, yeah, that probably doesn't make a lot of sense to anyone, including my wife, even though she's an amazing woman, 27 years now as I'm recording.
And she is a saint, and I don't know why she went on this wild ride with me.
I would say a year before this moment, I really felt the Lord pushing me in a sense to say, your season is ending up.
(20:49):
I was satisfied as a musician and a creative, but I was feeling some tension, as you mentioned.
I love that word, tension.
I felt like I wasn't using my skills.
I felt like I was a little bit overwhelmed.
There was just something that was missing.
And the Lord was basically saying like, whatever it is, I'm not going to show you the entire picture.
You're to move out of this position.
(21:09):
But he did not tell me where, did not tell me when.
I followed him on that for about nine months.
And eventually he's like, okay, fine.
I'm going to give you a date.
So in prayer, in the back of my church, during a prayer meeting on Wednesday, he said the date June 30th.
And I was like, okay, Lord, you said June 30th?
He's like, yes.
And I said, are you sure?
Do I stutter?
That's the way the Lord talks to me.
(21:29):
So I basically then said, okay, I don't have another job lined up.
I'm not trying to church hop.
This is not my position.
I've been at that previous church for 15 years.
I've now been at my current church for 15 years.
So as you can see, I don't jump around like that.
It was never in my heart.
I wasn't confident in this decision because it didn't make any sense.
(21:51):
I wasn't confident, but I was convicted.
I was convicted that disobedience was worse than disbelief at this point.
I just went ahead and said, okay, I'm going to draft a letter.
I walked into the executive pastor's office.
I said, Reverend, I'm committed to this.
I'm so sorry.
I know it doesn't make any sense, but I know I'm hearing from the Lord on this.
And he had a letter in his hand and he didn't know what to do with it.
(22:14):
I don't remember if I actually opened it, but I remember he leaned and like, well, pastor told me to prepare this for you.
And I looked at it a little bit like, I don't want to look at this.
I don't want to open it.
I don't want to see what's inside because if I see what's inside this and it tempts me and it says, hey, you know, maybe you heard from God wrong.
(22:35):
And I do remember like just setting it down.
I was like, no.
And I pushed the other letter forward.
I said, no, this is what I'm committed to.
And just to make a long story short, once again, I gave my final kind of address.
A Sunday later, went home and told my wife we no longer had a job.
And I didn't know what the next check was coming from, but I did what God said and it doesn't feel very good.
(22:56):
But three days later, I did get a call from what turned into now my current ministry.
So I knew God was moving, but I didn't know how, I didn't know when.
Just being obedient has then led me into this life of faith and creative life.
God and gigs never would have been on the radar had God not pushed me in that direction and then showed me his favor after I made that move.
Tell me about your book, God and gigs succeed as a musician without sacrificing your faith.
(23:22):
What was the catalyst for you to begin writing that?
Well, actually this very thing, after I gave that resignation, after I started part-time at this new position, but basically as just a musician, I wasn't doing full-time ministry anymore.
I needed to get a job, Rodney.
I needed to figure out where am I going to work?
Where am I going to get some more income?
And it was like, well, I used to play jazz.
(23:43):
I used to play blues.
I used to play this stuff.
So let's head back out into the circuit, play some open mics.
I remember sitting in a certain blues bar playing for $50 and some fish dip.
And I was like, okay, I don't think this is going to work long-term.
I started thinking, who else does this?
Am I the only musician that ever basically did creative work in the church and also did like, I can't be the only one.
(24:05):
Remember, I'm in my thirties now, thirties and forties, and I have no clue of the music industry.
I've been not taught in school about how to make it as a musician, succeed as a musician, period, much less without sacrificing my faith.
And so I started asking around and I got a chance to talk with some amazing musicians and creators, some guys that are world famous.
(24:26):
And I realized they're right in my backyard from South Florida.
And then number two, they're born again believers.
And they also play in a lot of amazing venues and with a lot of amazing artists who are not Christian.
And I asked them how they did it.
And so the catalyst of the book was how do people like them have stable family, stable faith, stable ability to be who they are emotionally and spiritually, and also succeed in their creative gift.
(24:54):
And that's what the book became.
It became the seven letters, which God kind of just dropped in my spirit, which was service, spells out service, stay connected to God, establish your priorities, respect the business, visualize your goals, invest in your craft, challenge yourself to grow, and then evangelize to your gift.
That was the template.
And the template came from me just watching other musicians who were doing the same thing and really just starting to flesh it out.
(25:20):
So then the book was created after that was the study guide.
And after that was my other devotionals, it all started from how do I handle this now that I know I need to walk this out, being a musician outside of the church and in the church.
Later, hopefully, as I'm talking about this, I'm going to be doing more editions because it started with musicians, but now I realize it applies to all creatives.
(25:40):
So eventually I'm going to do an entire edition that applies to not just musicians, because now God in Geeks really encompasses a lot more than just the musical side.
Back in those early days, you were trying to find someone who had those answers.
And thankfully you did find some of those people.
I guess it makes it a little bit easier for those who come after you to be able to read that book and has been a help for many people.
(26:04):
What has been the response that you've had from others who are working in the industry that have been able to sit down and say, yeah, this is helping me to stay grounded in my faith and in my family?
I always feel weird telling other people's stories, especially when they've been so complimentary at the book.
But this one I can share because number one, this sister is dear to my heart, and it probably speaks most clearly about what the impact the book had, again, thanks to God.
(26:26):
But a dear friend of mine, her name is Shante Cairns.
She is an amazing musician and singer and a vocal coach.
I've interviewed her twice.
And after the interview, she stopped me.
She said, hey, I just want to tell you something.
I just want you to know that when your book came out, I was searching.
I was really struggling with my faith.
And I was searching for how do I stay connected to God?
(26:48):
Because I really feel like I need to have a reawakening, rededication.
She was just basically using that language.
And she said, I just want you to know that your book was the vehicle that I needed at that time in my life.
It blew me away that I thought that this was more for me.
I thought it was like, oh, I need to read this, so I'll write it.
(27:11):
There's something funny with authors and even creatives that sometimes we don't realize that our work is for other people.
We put it out there, but in a sense, we're kind of fulfilling a need that we have to create.
And even though we say we want the audience, as soon as the audience reads it and sings it and plays it, we're kind of still shocked.
We're kind of separated from their experience because all we remember is our experience of creating it and experiencing it.
(27:35):
We can't live vicariously through them.
So to hear other people like her and other creatives say, I needed this resource because I was also in that kind of tension between sacred and secular.
Does God love this or does God hate this?
Is this sinful?
Is this not sinful?
And just realizing they're not alone, that is why I knew this was a God thing.
(27:58):
That's why, obviously, in the title, God goes first, not gigs and God, but God and then the gigs.
And the podcast, The God and Gigs Show, I imagine that's an extension of that, keeping that conversation alive and continuing to feed into that.
And there's been hundreds of episodes of that so far.
It must be something that you're very pleased to be able to put out there and have those conversations with other creatives.
(28:24):
It's been the joy of my life, honestly.
And I'll tell you, Rodney, even in podcasting in general, just doing this right now, that was another vehicle that I did not realize God was going to provide.
It's, again, where I followed this line of obedience where I didn't know where I was going to go after that June 30 resignation.
Here I am with almost 300 episodes of The God and Gigs Show.
(28:47):
And not only that, but I also produce a podcast for my church, two podcasts now for my church where we're doing multi-devotionals and we're doing family help.
So podcasting in general became another vehicle for me to express who I am, who God is, how he can bless people, how he can help creatives and other people outside of the creative life.
I didn't see it coming.
(29:09):
All of those experiences were necessary and would be used.
None of them were wasted.
It's all coming back now.
And then all of these other creators I'm interviewing are also saying the same thing.
This time that I was sleeping in my car and my family got kicked out, but then God was setting me up to be able to be on this position with this stage, with this artist.
Story after story after story after story shows how God is ordering the steps of these people and how he's able to be faithful.
(29:34):
And so that is why, I don't know if we'll get to 600, 900, whatever.
But all I know is that every time I turn on the mic and there's another creative, there's another story.
Allen, I'm sure that there will be people who want to connect with you, to get ahold of your book, to listen to the podcast, to even hear your music or read your blog posts.
What's the easiest place for people to go to be in touch with you?
(29:57):
Well, the easiest thing is simply just remember the name of the book, the name of the podcast, the name of my membership course, the name of all of it is God, G-O-D, and gigs, G-I-G-S, GodandGigs.com.
And so you'll see all the links there and on your podcast apps as well under the God and Gigs show.
(30:18):
And I will definitely put links in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net, so that if people miss that, they can certainly find you there.
But Allen, I just want to say thank you for sharing some of your experience with us.
Thank you for staying grounded in your faith and in your family life and being able to be a witness to what Jesus has done through your life, both in the church setting, but also in the secular setting,
(30:42):
and thank you so much for your time today on Bleeding Daylight.
It's been an absolute pleasure, Brian.
Thank you so much for having me.
Please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome and thanks for listening.
If you're on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok or other social media platforms, why not connect with us there?
You'll find all the links you need at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:32):
That's also where you'll find dozens of other episodes with some remarkable and inspirational people and stories.
Is it possible to thrive in the creative world without compromising your faith?
Are we all creative?
Today's guest has years of experience ballencing his life as a professional musician with his Christian faith.
(01:03):
Allen C.
Paul's journey is a testament to the delicate ballence between ministry, creative life and family.
After resigning from his pastoral role only to receive a promotion, he has thrived as a musician, author and advocate for creatives.
He describes himself in four words, husband, father, creative, forgiven.
(01:26):
He is the author of God and Gigs, Succeed as a Musician Without Sacrificing Your Faith, and produces the podcast, The God and Gigs Show.
He is on a mission to help Christian creatives excel in their craft while maintaining their faith.
I'm so pleased to have him as my guest today.
(01:46):
Allen, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Rodney, thank you so much for having me on the show.
I'm looking forward to this conversation for a while.
Firstly, can you confirm for me that jazz is definitely the music that we'll be listening to in heaven?
Oh, wow.
I can, oh, can I confirm?
(02:06):
I would love to confirm that and say it would be the only one.
I know that the music in heaven will be more than we can ever imagine, more creative than we can ever imagine.
So I can only imagine that jazz will have to be one of them because I believe it's one of the most creative and one of the most God-gifted genres just because of what it came from and so many different things that poured into that particular genre.
(02:30):
But I can't confirm or deny, I just hope that it will be one of the ones that we'll hear.
I certainly hope so.
Tell me a little bit about that musical journey of yours.
When did music first grab your interest?
Well, I have to go back to before my memories because my mom was my music teacher, and so obviously she was there first.
She says that I was trying to play the piano at around two or three years old, humming Sarah Smile and trying to reach up to the keys and playing around age three or four, I guess is when I might have started formal lessons.
(03:01):
This is all, again, based on home movies and her talking to me.
It grabbed my attention from the beginning because as I mentioned, my mother was a music teacher, is a music teacher, still plays at her church.
That is where I got my start playing classical all the way through high school and the very beginning of college.
But jazz, of course, was also trying to like nipping at my heels and started to fill my head around age of 15.
(03:24):
But as far as the beginnings, yes, my mother as a music teacher and my dad, not being a musician, but just having an incredible record collection filled with Stevie Wonder and James Taylor and Harry Chapin and Paul Simon and just any kind of music you can imagine were all in that record collection.
So we grew up around music playing on the record player.
So yeah, it grabbed me from the get-go because it was always in the house and it was just a way that we functioned.
(03:49):
It was part of the fabric of our family.
And of course, as you follow in those footsteps of playing music but also listening to a wide variety of music, I guess that's a big part of being a musician as well is not confining yourself.
Now, obviously, I've declared my interest in jazz music, but I have a very eclectic taste in music and I guess it would be the same for you.
(04:11):
Being someone who's a musician, you can see the musicality in a wide range of genres.
A hundred percent.
I've always told people that whether it's jazz, blues, rock, I'm very much probably we're probably in the same boat.
As long as it's good music, it's good music.
The labels to me are needed sometimes just to help people figure out, well, what do you do?
(04:33):
So if you ask me, am I a jazz musician?
It just gives you something to start with.
But after you begin creating or after you begin listening, hopefully, the label of what you're listening to falls away and it's just, what does it make you feel?
What does it make you think?
How does it affect you emotionally?
What is being spoken?
What is being sung?
What is being played?
It's so important that I'm talking to both music consumers and music creators that we get down to the meat of what is being shared.
(05:03):
That should not be limited by the labels.
I mean, I very much remember going into music school feeling kind of like a fish out of water because my first it was classical, but I was trying to get into the jazz school.
And if I was getting into the jazz school, I was really interested in getting more R&B and gospel obviously was starting to enter my picture even more.
And so it was kind of like, okay, am I allowed to put all these influences into my studies?
(05:29):
It was kind of like a weird place because as musicians, we're supposed to be well-rounded.
We're supposed to be able to play a lot of different things.
But in the academic setting, sometimes that doesn't fit.
I hope that more people in terms of just a listening audience and people who are listening to whatever playlist will be open to musicians being much more creative and not boxed in by labels or particular commercial interests that keep things only in one particular label or genre, because I think it's so much more creativity that we should be afforded.
(05:59):
There seems to have been for quite some time, a tension between music, musical expression, and one's faith.
Even in the popular music setting, there's a lot of people who we hear that their start in music was singing in church or playing in church.
And then they've walked right away from faith, somehow believing that the two are not compatible.
(06:23):
Tell me, when did you start to notice that tension between music, playing music well, and faith?
That's a great question.
I would love to just even mention the idea of all the musicians and creatives that start in the church.
If you're not in the musical world, you don't realize that pretty much every pop artist, every musician you've listened to pretty much either has a backing band or a studio musician or somebody, a producer, pretty much all of it, to the Western world at least, there is going to be some type of church musician that was involved in it.
(06:57):
Just because that is the nature of where the church has such a huge influence on music in general.
In terms of me specifically, because I always played in church growing up, I think the tensions probably started if there was one, right around when I was getting ready to graduate from college and I was also performing or ministering at my church.
(07:18):
We had just finished a short tour with my college band and the band kind of broke up.
We didn't really make it and I was just feeling like, okay, this music life is not fitting with what I feel like a family man or a ministry associate or a minister should be doing.
So I at that time felt like, okay, well maybe I shouldn't be playing this type of secular music just because I don't have time for it and it doesn't fit.
(07:45):
It wasn't necessarily a moral decision at the time, but it became more and more where I felt like it was wrong for me to do and play certain things.
That tension personally started right around that time where I started getting more and more involved in ministry.
Of course, you can probably fast forward to realize that I had a change of heart and a change of philosophy and understanding where God really showed me the reason I can have this platform God engaged us because he showed me that all the earth is mine, the fullness thereof, and that there's no music that only belongs to God and only music that belongs to the devil.
(08:18):
That just doesn't exist.
But at the time, I felt like I was falling into that kind of trap of, again, the label, if I'm a Christian musician, I can only play Christian music.
So I dealt with that struggle as I became more and more involved in full-time ministry and it took a lot of faith, a lot of reading, a lot of prayer, and really God kind of just knocked me off my high horse to realize that I was creating a wall that did not exist.
(08:44):
So for other musicians and creatives who are dealing with that, that is exactly why I have a lot of grace for them because maybe you are called to full-time ministry and your heart is not to perform anything else.
And I always say, then do that.
Please do not try to do something that God did not call you to do.
But then also don't judge those who are called to basically what everybody else is doing, which is vocational work in the world, which involves art, music, dance, drama, theater, any of these types of things, which all speak to God's goodness and creative beauty.
(09:18):
And we just have to learn how to walk that line correctly.
And that is an interesting line to walk, isn't it?
Because on one hand, there's music that you can play.
It still glorifies God because it's demonstrating the beauty of music itself.
It's demonstrating the talents and skills that he's given you.
I guess a lot of people who play music well, who perform well, can tend to be put on a pedestal by others.
(09:42):
There's an issue right there of how to battle with the pride if someone is wanting to lift you up beyond what you really should be when God is the one who should be worshipped.
And that one is a hard one because I'm always careful with this when I'm talking to either creators, musicians, anyone that makes it sound like there's a dichotomy between the musician and the creative and everybody else.
(10:06):
We all can be lifted up on a pedestal of our own talent and ability.
Pride, right, is the number one sin that elevates us above God, where we put the pride of self and the pride of life.
And we think for whatever reason that the way we think and what we do makes us the arbiter, the person that can decide things.
(10:29):
So it is easy, obviously, when you're in a creative space then, for people to elevate you and to feed that pride, right?
Because now they're saying, you sing so well, you play so well, you do this.
So it is definitely a vehicle that can be a source where the ego can be fed and you can start to think like, oh, well, I guess I should be able to do whatever I want because people love me.
(10:53):
And it gets to that source of pride and ego and takes you away from God because God should be glorified, number one.
I believe that no one can really handle that glory.
We've seen so many stories of stars, people in all walks of life that get famous, who suddenly are laid low and humbled and bad things happen.
(11:15):
I never want these things to happen, but they seem to happen over and over again in the news.
And I think it's because we're not designed to carry that glory.
Only God is.
In the musical and the creative and the performing arts type of fame, it is very much something we all have to be aware of because God does give us the gift, but we individually as people are a gift, not just the gift that he puts within us.
(11:44):
I've always equated this to like the wrapping paper.
If you take a gift and you take the wrapping paper and you just admire the wrapping paper and never look at what's inside, is that really a valuable gift if you just can look at the wrapping?
And that's what happens with our gifts and our talents.
People look at the wrapping, but they don't look at what's inside.
And God is what put the gift on the inside, the human being inside.
(12:05):
So when we get caught up in the fame and the fortune of the talent and the gifting, we negate and neglect the person inside.
And that person inside is a soul, is a spirit that should be nurtured, that should be understood.
So both on the outside, people looking in and the inside, musicians have to be, and creators and artists in general, have to be super sensitive to that.
(12:27):
They have to be self-aware.
They have to give themselves to God.
They have to give themselves to prayer and understanding that I am not my gift.
I am not my talent.
My identity should hopefully, they all should know this, hopefully they know, it should be in Christ.
And then all those things are added onto them that they can glorify God and bless others.
But yeah, that's a super hard distinction.
(12:48):
Of course, again, with the media and everything else, we tend to blow people up and make them feel like all they are are their talent.
And then if they rely on that, it's a slippery slope that can lead them to destruction.
When we talk about people who are creatives, I guess there's an understanding.
We know what we're talking about, people who are creative, especially in the area of the arts.
And yet, we serve a creative God.
(13:10):
And one of the things that has bothered me for some time is when people tell me, oh, but I'm not creative.
And yet, we're all people who have been made in the image of a creative God.
So what is it about people that if they don't see their creativity in those natural ways that we've been discussing in the arts, in music, that they don't consider themselves to be creative?
(13:35):
They don't consider themselves to be image bearers of a creative God?
I so love this line of questioning that you're sharing because it leads right to something that I just was able to share on the YouVersion app.
I was just able to share a devotional called The Creator's Craft.
And in that devotional, it's just a three-day devotional, super easy to read.
(13:56):
But I start the very first paragraph with, if you're reading this and you think you're not creative, let me explain why.
That's a fallacy.
Because as you just said, if God is the creator and we are made in his image, it is impossible for him to create something in his image that doesn't bear all of the characteristics that he bears.
(14:18):
Now, obviously, we are sub-creators as Tolkien calls us.
He calls us sub-creators.
So we're nowhere close to the person that could speak things that are not as though they weren't speak life and speak all these things.
So we're not God, but we do carry his characteristics.
We do carry a shadow and an ideal that we have the ability to be creative and to then take his creation and make things new.
(14:45):
He didn't just say to the creators, be fruitful and multiply.
He didn't just say to musicians, make beautiful things.
He didn't just say to artists, make beautiful things.
He said to the creation, he said to Adam and Eve, be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth, do some things, cultivate, make things more beautiful.
And he gave that mandate to every single person he made.
(15:06):
And that means he gave us the ability to do that.
So whether it's as a mom, as a scientist, as a doctor, our job is to creatively make this world better than we found it using the gifts that God gave us.
And so that is by nature, a creative act.
So I think, again, the media, the way we look at the performing arts, of course, draws most of our attention to that.
(15:28):
But if people don't realize that they have the creative gift of God inside them, they're missing out on a blessing.
I love what you mentioned at the beginning, will there be jazz in heaven?
Well, there will be creativity in heaven.
And I don't think it'll be reserved to just the people who were creative here on earth in the arts.
There will be creativity from everyone because we'll be in the presence of a creative God and he will luxuriate in every single human being's ability to continue to create beauty, even on the other side.
(16:00):
Otherwise, why would he say, and they sing a new song unto the lamb?
Did he write the new song unto the lamb or did we?
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there will be creativity in heaven and every single person that is then redeemed gets to enjoy that gift on that side.
So why not enjoy it on this side as well?
I mentioned in the introduction that you describe yourself by those four words as husband, father, creative, forgiven.
(16:25):
How important is it for us to identify ourselves by something other than just a talent that we have or just a skill that we have?
And you've touched on these earlier, but how important is it for us to actually say, who am I in the view of God, as he views us through Christ, that I'm not just a set of skills or a creative talent?
(16:47):
Well, I'm going to borrow a line from another amazing creator that I just interviewed.
His name is Mickey Smith Jr., but I'm going to borrow his line because I can't say this any better than he did.
Answering the question, who am I?
It's the single most important question you can answer.
But then once you answer it, it does not negate the next question, which is, who is the I am?
(17:09):
If you know who you are, it should not ever take you away from knowing the I am.
When he said that, it rang true for me so much because again, it's so tempting for me to take my identity as an artist, as a musician.
People see me at church or performing and they'll just say, they immediately go to the, oh, it must be so wonderful to be a musician.
(17:32):
I love your playing.
And in my heart, I'm aching, but it's my fault.
If they don't know me as something other than a musician, that's because I've been hiding or not being clear or being open about the other aspects of my life, which is why I start with husband, father, because those two things are the most important parts of my identity in terms of my earthly role.
(17:55):
If people don't know me as a husband and father, they certainly won't respect me as much as a creative if I go to do all these gifting things, but then I've neglected my family and my wife.
The reason why I ended with forgiven is because all three of those depend on me realizing that he's saved me, that he's redeemed me.
So it's so important to me that creators everywhere just understand that your identity is first as a created child of God, and then because you're created, you then can enjoy the creations that you make, that he allows you to make, that he gives you to make, that inspires you to make, to bless God and bless others.
(18:36):
I've gone through a lot, Rodney, I can tell you every sin in the Bible, if it's Moses, David, Abraham, you name one of the patriarchs, I've done everything that they've done, which puts me in pretty good company, right?
In both good and bad ways.
It makes sure that I realize that if God can use those men, flawed as they were, he can use me as flawed as I am.
(18:57):
The gifts and talents are not what gives me the right to call on his name and say, hey, Lord, I've messed up.
Will you please once again remind me of who I am?
I am your child.
I am a royal priesthood, a holy nation.
I am called into your marvelous light.
I am the head and not the tail.
You called me these things.
(19:17):
My behavior at this point does not show me this, but because your grace and mercy and favor, your blood and your sacrifice, I can now enter into the throne of grace.
I have to rely on that because my gifts and my talents will never get me there.
No matter how beautiful I play in church, no matter how many people are blessed, no matter how many people raise their hands, when I walk into the throne room, I do not walk in with a piano.
(19:39):
I do not walk in with a harp.
I do not walk in with a guitar.
I do not walk in with an art brush.
I walk in as myself.
And so we have to be very, very, very, very transparent before the Lord as creators because otherwise it does cloud our thinking.
And I'm not getting into the whole theology of the devil, but most people seem to think that he was some type of angel of ministry of music or something like that.
(20:01):
It's Ezekiel.
And let's just say that didn't work out for him.
So I believe we have to be transparent before the Lord in everything we do.
And that usually means dropping the gifts at the door and just being ourselves.
I hinted at a very interesting story in the introduction, and that is about the day that you handed your resignation to your pastor.
(20:23):
Tell me about that day.
What happened and what sprang from that?
Oh, my gosh.
Every time I mention it, it's like, yeah, that probably doesn't make a lot of sense to anyone, including my wife, even though she's an amazing woman, 27 years now as I'm recording.
And she is a saint, and I don't know why she went on this wild ride with me.
I would say a year before this moment, I really felt the Lord pushing me in a sense to say, your season is ending up.
(20:49):
I was satisfied as a musician and a creative, but I was feeling some tension, as you mentioned.
I love that word, tension.
I felt like I wasn't using my skills.
I felt like I was a little bit overwhelmed.
There was just something that was missing.
And the Lord was basically saying like, whatever it is, I'm not going to show you the entire picture.
You're to move out of this position.
(21:09):
But he did not tell me where, did not tell me when.
I followed him on that for about nine months.
And eventually he's like, okay, fine.
I'm going to give you a date.
So in prayer, in the back of my church, during a prayer meeting on Wednesday, he said the date June 30th.
And I was like, okay, Lord, you said June 30th?
He's like, yes.
And I said, are you sure?
Do I stutter?
That's the way the Lord talks to me.
(21:29):
So I basically then said, okay, I don't have another job lined up.
I'm not trying to church hop.
This is not my position.
I've been at that previous church for 15 years.
I've now been at my current church for 15 years.
So as you can see, I don't jump around like that.
It was never in my heart.
I wasn't confident in this decision because it didn't make any sense.
(21:51):
I wasn't confident, but I was convicted.
I was convicted that disobedience was worse than disbelief at this point.
I just went ahead and said, okay, I'm going to draft a letter.
I walked into the executive pastor's office.
I said, Reverend, I'm committed to this.
I'm so sorry.
I know it doesn't make any sense, but I know I'm hearing from the Lord on this.
And he had a letter in his hand and he didn't know what to do with it.
(22:14):
I don't remember if I actually opened it, but I remember he leaned and like, well, pastor told me to prepare this for you.
And I looked at it a little bit like, I don't want to look at this.
I don't want to open it.
I don't want to see what's inside because if I see what's inside this and it tempts me and it says, hey, you know, maybe you heard from God wrong.
(22:35):
And I do remember like just setting it down.
I was like, no.
And I pushed the other letter forward.
I said, no, this is what I'm committed to.
And just to make a long story short, once again, I gave my final kind of address.
A Sunday later, went home and told my wife we no longer had a job.
And I didn't know what the next check was coming from, but I did what God said and it doesn't feel very good.
(22:56):
But three days later, I did get a call from what turned into now my current ministry.
So I knew God was moving, but I didn't know how, I didn't know when.
Just being obedient has then led me into this life of faith and creative life.
God and gigs never would have been on the radar had God not pushed me in that direction and then showed me his favor after I made that move.
Tell me about your book, God and gigs succeed as a musician without sacrificing your faith.
(23:22):
What was the catalyst for you to begin writing that?
Well, actually this very thing, after I gave that resignation, after I started part-time at this new position, but basically as just a musician, I wasn't doing full-time ministry anymore.
I needed to get a job, Rodney.
I needed to figure out where am I going to work?
Where am I going to get some more income?
And it was like, well, I used to play jazz.
(23:43):
I used to play blues.
I used to play this stuff.
So let's head back out into the circuit, play some open mics.
I remember sitting in a certain blues bar playing for $50 and some fish dip.
And I was like, okay, I don't think this is going to work long-term.
I started thinking, who else does this?
Am I the only musician that ever basically did creative work in the church and also did like, I can't be the only one.
(24:05):
Remember, I'm in my thirties now, thirties and forties, and I have no clue of the music industry.
I've been not taught in school about how to make it as a musician, succeed as a musician, period, much less without sacrificing my faith.
And so I started asking around and I got a chance to talk with some amazing musicians and creators, some guys that are world famous.
(24:26):
And I realized they're right in my backyard from South Florida.
And then number two, they're born again believers.
And they also play in a lot of amazing venues and with a lot of amazing artists who are not Christian.
And I asked them how they did it.
And so the catalyst of the book was how do people like them have stable family, stable faith, stable ability to be who they are emotionally and spiritually, and also succeed in their creative gift.
(24:54):
And that's what the book became.
It became the seven letters, which God kind of just dropped in my spirit, which was service, spells out service, stay connected to God, establish your priorities, respect the business, visualize your goals, invest in your craft, challenge yourself to grow, and then evangelize to your gift.
That was the template.
And the template came from me just watching other musicians who were doing the same thing and really just starting to flesh it out.
(25:20):
So then the book was created after that was the study guide.
And after that was my other devotionals, it all started from how do I handle this now that I know I need to walk this out, being a musician outside of the church and in the church.
Later, hopefully, as I'm talking about this, I'm going to be doing more editions because it started with musicians, but now I realize it applies to all creatives.
(25:40):
So eventually I'm going to do an entire edition that applies to not just musicians, because now God in Geeks really encompasses a lot more than just the musical side.
Back in those early days, you were trying to find someone who had those answers.
And thankfully you did find some of those people.
I guess it makes it a little bit easier for those who come after you to be able to read that book and has been a help for many people.
(26:04):
What has been the response that you've had from others who are working in the industry that have been able to sit down and say, yeah, this is helping me to stay grounded in my faith and in my family?
I always feel weird telling other people's stories, especially when they've been so complimentary at the book.
But this one I can share because number one, this sister is dear to my heart, and it probably speaks most clearly about what the impact the book had, again, thanks to God.
(26:26):
But a dear friend of mine, her name is Shante Cairns.
She is an amazing musician and singer and a vocal coach.
I've interviewed her twice.
And after the interview, she stopped me.
She said, hey, I just want to tell you something.
I just want you to know that when your book came out, I was searching.
I was really struggling with my faith.
And I was searching for how do I stay connected to God?
(26:48):
Because I really feel like I need to have a reawakening, rededication.
She was just basically using that language.
And she said, I just want you to know that your book was the vehicle that I needed at that time in my life.
It blew me away that I thought that this was more for me.
I thought it was like, oh, I need to read this, so I'll write it.
(27:11):
There's something funny with authors and even creatives that sometimes we don't realize that our work is for other people.
We put it out there, but in a sense, we're kind of fulfilling a need that we have to create.
And even though we say we want the audience, as soon as the audience reads it and sings it and plays it, we're kind of still shocked.
We're kind of separated from their experience because all we remember is our experience of creating it and experiencing it.
(27:35):
We can't live vicariously through them.
So to hear other people like her and other creatives say, I needed this resource because I was also in that kind of tension between sacred and secular.
Does God love this or does God hate this?
Is this sinful?
Is this not sinful?
And just realizing they're not alone, that is why I knew this was a God thing.
(27:58):
That's why, obviously, in the title, God goes first, not gigs and God, but God and then the gigs.
And the podcast, The God and Gigs Show, I imagine that's an extension of that, keeping that conversation alive and continuing to feed into that.
And there's been hundreds of episodes of that so far.
It must be something that you're very pleased to be able to put out there and have those conversations with other creatives.
(28:24):
It's been the joy of my life, honestly.
And I'll tell you, Rodney, even in podcasting in general, just doing this right now, that was another vehicle that I did not realize God was going to provide.
It's, again, where I followed this line of obedience where I didn't know where I was going to go after that June 30 resignation.
Here I am with almost 300 episodes of The God and Gigs Show.
(28:47):
And not only that, but I also produce a podcast for my church, two podcasts now for my church where we're doing multi-devotionals and we're doing family help.
So podcasting in general became another vehicle for me to express who I am, who God is, how he can bless people, how he can help creatives and other people outside of the creative life.
I didn't see it coming.
(29:09):
All of those experiences were necessary and would be used.
None of them were wasted.
It's all coming back now.
And then all of these other creators I'm interviewing are also saying the same thing.
This time that I was sleeping in my car and my family got kicked out, but then God was setting me up to be able to be on this position with this stage, with this artist.
Story after story after story after story shows how God is ordering the steps of these people and how he's able to be faithful.
(29:34):
And so that is why, I don't know if we'll get to 600, 900, whatever.
But all I know is that every time I turn on the mic and there's another creative, there's another story.
Allen, I'm sure that there will be people who want to connect with you, to get ahold of your book, to listen to the podcast, to even hear your music or read your blog posts.
What's the easiest place for people to go to be in touch with you?
(29:57):
Well, the easiest thing is simply just remember the name of the book, the name of the podcast, the name of my membership course, the name of all of it is God, G-O-D, and gigs, G-I-G-S, GodandGigs.com.
And so you'll see all the links there and on your podcast apps as well under the God and Gigs show.
(30:18):
And I will definitely put links in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net, so that if people miss that, they can certainly find you there.
But Allen, I just want to say thank you for sharing some of your experience with us.
Thank you for staying grounded in your faith and in your family life and being able to be a witness to what Jesus has done through your life, both in the church setting, but also in the secular setting,
(30:42):
and thank you so much for your time today on Bleeding Daylight.
It's been an absolute pleasure, Brian.
Thank you so much for having me.
Please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
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