September 22, 2024 • 30 mins
In this episode, Healey shares her powerful journey through childhood challenges, including fear, self-doubt, and growing up in a turbulent family environment. Her faith, nurtured from a young age, provided an anchor as she navigated painful experiences, including her parents’ divorce, bullying, and struggling with her sense of identity. She opens up about how God’s presence and her Christian upbringing sustained her, even during times of rebellion and spiritual drift.
Healey’s story doesn’t stop at her personal challenges—she also discusses her path to becoming a Christian counselor. With deep insights into mental health, faith, and emotional healing, Healey touches on the power of forgiveness, the role of faith in addressing anxiety, and how embracing biblical truths can transform lives. Her reflections on overcoming fear, embracing emotional health, and finding peace in God’s grace provide profound lessons for anyone seeking healing and a deeper faith. WEBLINKS
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome, thanks for listening.
Keep the conversation going by connecting with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok or other social media platforms.
(00:31):
You'll find all the links at bleedingdaylight.net as well as dozens of other episodes of Bleeding Daylight.
Is it possible to change the way we think?
Are we able to disrupt negative thought patterns to find healing and freedom?
Today's guest not only believes it's possible, she helps others discover how they can change their thinking.
(01:03):
Today, I'm very excited to welcome Healey Ikerd.
Healey's journey has taken her from a small town in Oklahoma to serving in the U.S. Army and later working in mental health for over 17 years.
As the manager of her private counseling practice, Hope Life Counseling, Healey brings a wealth of experience and compassion to her clients.
(01:26):
She's also a published author who has written a number of books, including Changing Your Feelings, a workbook for anxiety and worry from a Christian perspective.
Healey, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much, Rodney.
I'm happy to be here.
You do spend a lot of time helping people work through and find release from issues such as anxiety, fear, worry, and anger.
(01:51):
Were there times in your life where those things marked your own life?
Well, when I was younger, I probably had a lot of fear, not so much anxiety, although I'm not sure that anxiety was really a word back when I grew up.
But I did have a lot of fear and a lot of self-doubt, a lot of anger.
That's just some of the things that I experienced in my family.
(02:13):
So those were emotions that I knew I felt, but other things, probably not so much.
Tell me about those earlier years.
It wasn't all plain sailing for you, was it?
No, it was pretty hard.
Growing up in Oklahoma, it was a small little town, so I was a little different than the other kids just complexion-wise.
(02:34):
That was kind of hard times to fit in a little bit.
I experienced a lot of bullying and teasing as I got into older years.
My parents argued a lot.
They had a very troubled marriage.
I spent a lot of my time in my closet when they argued, just out of fear.
It was very scary to me.
(02:57):
So I learned that's what you do when scary things are going on, you hide.
I kind of mimic that still when I get a little bit overwhelmed with emotion, that I tend to just go somewhere else and cope.
I learned that from my early years.
Where did things go from there?
Where did faith figure in your life at that stage?
(03:17):
Well, one thing about my parents, they were very adamant about having faith in my brother, my life.
I am very thankful for that.
We didn't really practice Christianity in our home per se, but they were very focused on getting us to Sunday school every Sunday.
My mom taught us to pray, so we prayed every night.
(03:39):
I really believe that God had given me a gift of faith because at a very young age, I was very prayerful and really believed that Jesus could heal and do the things that I prayed for.
One example, my mom told me that I didn't even remember.
She said that I was sucking my thumb really bad.
I was in second grade, still sucking my thumb.
(04:00):
I was getting sores on them really bad.
She was very distressed and bringing me to doctors.
They put mittens on and tied them up, put medicine on and terrible tasting stuff.
It didn't matter.
I was still in the morning sucking my thumb.
One day, she noticed that I wasn't sucking my thumb anymore.
(04:20):
She asked me what happened.
I said, well, I prayed to Jesus and He helped me stop.
I thought, wow, that's really good for a young girl to just have such strong faith.
I often find that kids have a really strong faith.
They pray and they believe.
We kind of lose that over the years.
As young children, we can just take at face value this idea of faith and the opportunities that that presents, such as a young girl praying for something as simple as, I need to stop sucking my thumb.
(04:52):
Suddenly, there is release from that.
What do you think it is that along the way causes us to lose that childlike faith?
I believe probably it is because God doesn't answer every one of our prayers in the way that we expect.
He seems to be gracious to young children, at least to me, because even raising my son, I found that, wow, when my son prays for stuff, God really just answers.
(05:17):
It's kind of crazy.
When we're older, we're praying for big things, like big healings usually, or someone to return to the Lord, or some big things.
Sometimes God doesn't answer in the way that we expect.
I think it can really challenge our thinking and maybe dishearten us a little bit.
Is God really there?
Is He really listening?
(05:38):
Does He care about my problems?
Maybe our faith withers a little with that.
You mentioned that your parents used to argue a lot, and I know that that didn't end well for them.
Do you think that that was something that caused your faith to take a battering when your parents decided that they would end their marriage?
(06:00):
Once my parents told me that they were divorcing, I really did have a very difficult time.
I remember they sat us down, and I was 16, and they told us.
I just ran out of the house and got in my truck and drove and tried to process it all.
I felt to blame for a lot of it, because they argued about me a lot.
(06:21):
I took a lot of that myself.
I didn't really blame God for that.
That's why I think sometimes faith is a gift too, because it's weird that I didn't question Him a lot of things.
Even when a lot of bad stuff happened, I just would be like, I don't understand, but I still love you.
After my parents divorced, I kind of went downhill as far as my behavior.
(06:46):
I really felt lost and feeling down and sad.
I definitely didn't feel joy in my life.
I began drinking heavily, started sleeping around, just cursing, and just not what a young Christian girl would do.
Although I would still say I loved God and still believed in Him and believed in His Son, it wasn't until many years later that God did a work in me and caused me to rededicate my life and really understand what it means to follow the Lord instead of just head and not any obedience.
(07:27):
Pete So often people can give up on us, yet God doesn't.
He keeps calling us back and calling us back.
What was that moment for you that you heard His call and you said, okay, I'm done with all of this.
I need to follow Him as Lord.
I had a son out of wedlock, and so he was about a year old, and I was attending a Bible study.
(07:49):
We were studying the book of Romans.
It was a ladies Bible study, but a gentleman was leading it.
He read Romans 12 too, so it's do not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
It was like suddenly I could just hear God speak to my spirit and just say, Healey, you need to choose.
(08:12):
Are you going to follow me or the world?
I'm like, what are you talking about?
Of course I'm going to follow you.
I'm here in a Bible study.
I just had a couple of visions flash in my mind of me trying to walk two paths and me straddling a fence.
My sin became very evident to me in that moment that just on the drive back to work, I was like, oh my goodness, like, Lord, I'm so sorry.
(08:41):
I've been lying, cussing, sleeping around, drinking.
Of course I'm looking like the rest of the world, even though I would claim that's not where my heart was.
From that time, I bought myself a study Bible and I read that Bible.
(09:01):
I had not read it before as far as deeply.
I normally just would read the red words in the New Testament.
I really got into the word and it transformed my life.
I really understood what surrender meant and living under his lordship of just living according to the word.
(09:26):
We are different when we're Christians.
We live a different life.
We look different.
We think different.
We feel different.
Everything should change when we have surrendered our life to him.
I am so thankful he didn't leave me, even though my life was a big old mess, that he was still there loving me, guiding me back to him, helping me get to a place that was a lot more peaceful in my heart.
(09:53):
I want to know a little bit about your journey to become a counselor.
What was it that precipitated that?
What was it that made you think, I need to help others in their own journey in life?
Well, when I was in the military, I was stationed in Italy and that's where I rededicated my life.
I decided to go back to school to get a human relations master's degree.
(10:15):
In that coursework, there were a few counseling classes.
We were doing some role playing of the different theories in counseling.
One of the professors said, well, you're really good at this, Haley.
I was like, oh, thank you very much.
But I really didn't think anything of it.
But as I was transitioning out of the military, what do I want to do with my life?
(10:41):
I love helping people.
I always have.
People have normally come to me my whole life and ask me things and questions and ponderings and all that.
When I really sat down and thought about what do I want to do, that professor came back to mind and thought, I would love to do that.
(11:02):
I looked up the qualifications and I had to go back to school and get a whole another master's degree.
It took me forever because I was a single parent at the time.
I was working full time.
So it was a really hard process, but I finally got through and now it's hard to think that that was that long ago.
There's obviously a difference between the sorts of help that we can offer people, understanding how the mind works, understanding how people operate and being able to give them some of the tools to go forward in life in a better way to counteract those sorts of things like worry and anxiety.
(11:41):
But then there's a difference between that and the deep healing that only comes through Christ.
So as a counselor, how do you balance those things?
How do you bring that talk of faith into the practice so that you're not doing something that the client isn't asking for, but at the same time, you know that this is what will bring the healing?
(12:02):
There are a lot of guidelines around being a counselor.
I do advertise myself as a Christian counselor.
So I do get a lot of Christians that come in and they give permission for that through my intake form.
Then I feel pretty open that I can talk and share.
If they're not, it is a bigger challenge for me because when you are grounded in Christ, that's a firm foundation.
(12:28):
It's hard to just help people when there's not necessarily a foundation, like they're their own foundation.
We know in our experiences, that's pretty wobbly.
The great thing about the Bible is that there is a lot of truth there.
You can share that with people without the Christianese part of that.
(12:50):
You can just share the truth of that.
One of those things is learning how to change your thoughts and how you think about yourself and how you think about other people.
The concepts of forgiveness, that's universal with everybody.
For example, forgiveness is one of those things that will reduce anger, reduce stress, increase peace.
(13:12):
That's for everybody.
That's not just Christians.
When we work to think better about ourselves, it doesn't matter.
That's just the truth that's going to come through for people, that when you start thinking truthful thoughts, that's going to help the way that you feel.
That is going to decrease stress and depression, and it's going to decrease anxiety and worry.
(13:37):
That's one thing I love about the Bible, that you can just share truth.
You don't have to say, that's in John 14, whatever.
You can just share the truth that the Bible has and transforms people.
You mentioned the amazing power that is held in forgiveness, but I suppose forgiveness is one of those topics that can be misunderstood, that there are people who think, oh, forgiveness, that means I have to just pretend like something didn't happen and move on and just try and go back to what was normal before.
(14:12):
What are some of the misconceptions around forgiveness that you have to work through with some of the people that you're talking to?
That is one of the myths, that you just sweep it under the rug and act like it doesn't happen, and that is not true.
Acting like it didn't hurt you is not true.
Some of the first steps of forgiveness is first acknowledging that it did hurt you, that it was painful, that someone did something, and that you're allowed to feel and express those emotions.
(14:43):
I remember I helped one lady work through the forgiveness of her abuser, which you would think, that's like a hard one.
I've heard so many forgiveness stories in my life, it is amazing.
I think those are very hard for people to go, it seems like I'm giving them a pass, but when you really work through the pain and what it has caused you, and then when you can bring faith into it, that helps us.
(15:12):
We forgive because we are forgiven.
We forgive because God's asked us to do that.
It doesn't mean it's going to be easy, it doesn't mean it's not going to be painful, it doesn't mean you're not going to have to do it over and over again, even for the same offense.
It is very, of course, helpful, but definitely hard to process.
(15:34):
Have there been people you've been working with who have initially been resistant to that idea of offering forgiveness, and yet have then gone through the steps and experienced the release that it brings?
I would say most people are resistant to it anytime I bring it up.
But as we talk about what it is and what it's not, and how you can still create boundaries afterwards, it doesn't mean that you have to be friends with them or anything like that, that they can do that.
(16:06):
Yes, but I would say the lady that I worked with on forgiving her abuser, she was resistant, but she felt such freedom that didn't have power over her anymore, and it healed her in and out of that whole experience.
There's something powerful in forgiveness that's unlike anything that we can explain.
(16:32):
Forgiveness doesn't mean that we must put ourselves back in the place of danger with a person who is not safe to be around, does it?
That is correct, and that's one of the parts of the process that we talk about what that looks like.
Does it mean reconciliation, or does it mean, for example, an abuser?
That would not be a situation you put yourself in, so we talk and work through how to set up boundaries if it's someone that's manipulating, how to identify that and not let that happen, especially when it's somebody that's not safe.
(17:05):
People really do have to work through that part of learning how to have those boundaries, what that actually looks like, and then be able to follow through on that.
A lot of people do believe that once I forgive them, then we're all good and back in the relationship, and we have to evaluate to see, is that relationship a good one to be in?
(17:27):
Because sometimes they're not.
Now, sometimes you do need to reconcile and make things right as far as you can on your side.
I want to talk about your book, Changing Your Feelings, a workbook for anxiety and worry from a Christian perspective.
It's interesting.
It has a title, Changing Your Feelings, because so often people will think, well, I can't change the way I feel.
(17:51):
I can change my response to it, but can I really change the way I feel?
Tell me about that book.
Tell me what made you decide, this is the book I need to write.
When you're a counselor or probably in whatever profession, when you have a certain profession, people just naturally come up and ask you questions or talk to you about things.
(18:11):
As you can imagine, as a counselor, a lot of people do ask a lot of questions and tell you a lot of things.
One thing that I kept having friends come ask me were questions about anxiety.
I thought, oh, let me just create a little something for them.
I was writing out things or writing in text, a lot of the same things, and just thought this would be helpful for people.
(18:32):
It kind of morphed into this big book because as I would do this section on coping skills, then I was like, well, I really need to talk about how the brain works too.
Because if you're going to talk about coping, you kind of need to know why coping helps or what's going on in your brain when anxiety hits and so how you can calm yourself down.
(18:52):
So I ended up making the whole thing.
It's got everything from identity to panic attacks to worry to how the brain works and all that.
The one thing I wanted to do was because there's not a whole lot of how to change your feelings in using the Bible and thinking about healing and identity and panic and all that, because it seems like a very secular problem.
(19:18):
But when Christians feel anxiety, it feels even more problematic because the Bible tells us to do not fear, do not feel anxious.
Part of the book is trying to normalize like anxiety is not a bad thing.
It's a God-given emotion.
That's good.
But he doesn't want us to dwell in certain kind of emotions all the time, like sadness or anger or frustration.
(19:44):
We need to feel those things, but be able to move on at some point.
And you're exactly right.
I hear a lot of the times, I can't help the way that I feel.
And I tell, that is not true.
Because tell me, if you're feeling down and you go have lunch with a friend, do you not feel better?
You're actively working at changing something.
(20:05):
Or if you feel down and you decide to watch a comedy, you're actively doing something to change the way that you feel.
And so it doesn't mean we deny our feelings, but just recognizing we can change the way that we feel.
And it is a good thing because our emotions shouldn't control us.
We control them.
God wants us to control them because most of the time when we make decisions out of emotion, those are not good ones.
(20:31):
They will cause us to do crazy things.
And I'm sure that brings an enormous relief to people knowing that it doesn't have to stay this way.
I'm not locked into something.
What I used to feel was this, but now I can change those feelings.
What I used to believe about my feelings was this, but I'm not locked into that forever.
(20:53):
That must bring amazing relief for so many people.
I have found that to be so true that people are very relieved to hear you do not have to act out of your feelings.
You have control over them.
Once I can actually get them to believe that, the rest is a lot easier and that they remind themselves whenever they want to act out of emotion or do something that's very emotion-based, that they can take a moment to think about that.
(21:25):
And sometimes we have to calm ourselves down, take a few deep breaths and think through, do I really need to say this right now?
Is that going to be helpful?
Or think of the times that you've had a lot of anger.
At least for me, I know I have felt like doing some crazy things, but I think good mental health helps you identify that's not a good thing to do.
(21:49):
You might feel like doing it, but it doesn't mean you have to do it.
And I think that's one of the big issues in our society nowadays.
We follow our emotions way too much, and that is the cause of a lot of poor decision-making instead of using our God-given wisdom on how to handle situations.
(22:11):
Being healthy is hard, so it's not an easy thing to do, but it's definitely possible.
So often we hear from people saying, but this is what I feel, this is what I'm experiencing, therefore I must go with this.
And yet the scripture will tell us something different.
It will say, actually there can be control.
(22:32):
You can change that a person can become a new creation in Christ.
How difficult is that to communicate to some people who have swallowed the story that the world gives that, no, no, you must follow your feelings, that if you're feeling a certain way, that's what you must act on.
Yeah, I think to help them just see decisions that they've made in those emotions and to see and to evaluate, because when you're feeling like a normal range of feelings, you can kind of assess those times better.
(23:05):
Like when somebody did this and I cursed them out, or I flipped a table or whatever, was that really a good decision?
Is that who you are?
The heart's to see you full above all else, the Bible tells us.
So it's not really biblical at all to follow our feelings or our heart, because that's not true.
(23:26):
Sometimes we feel unloved, but does that mean we are not loved?
Honestly, most of the time that's not true.
We can feel like nobody loves us, but that's not even true.
Or we can feel rejected, but nobody's actually rejected us.
Or we can feel like we're all alone or that nobody cares, but in fact, many people care.
(23:51):
That's why we can't listen to those things, because typically they're not ever truthful.
They're not ever truthful thoughts that we're having.
Depression will normally tell us to, hey, stay in bed.
You don't feel like doing anything.
You don't feel like you don't want to go hang out.
You don't want to do all these things.
And that only reinforces the feeling that we don't even want to have.
(24:14):
So if we instead get up, go do something, we are going to feel better.
That's a prime example of not listening to your emotions, because they just want us to keep feeling.
And feeling's okay.
I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling anger.
You just have to control your actions after that.
(24:35):
In the same way, there's nothing wrong with feeling sadness, but within context, you should work to overcome that.
If someone's just passed away, of course, you're going to feel sadness and you just need to feel that.
But if you're waking up in the morning and there's no particular reason, you can work to change that feeling.
You don't have to just go, oh, this is just the way that I am.
That's not true.
(24:56):
I'm interested in the idea of helping people with depression.
Obviously, there are actions we can take, beliefs about ourselves, beliefs about others, that are going to help our mental state in depression.
But there are also medications that people would use to counteract that.
How do we find that balance when there is something that needs medication, just as every other illness does, and that behavioral change?
(25:25):
Well, I don't normally tell clients that they need it.
If they're going to a doctor and the doctor feels like that's helpful, I will agree.
If they feel like they want to be able to come off the medication, that we can work and do to the brain what the medication does.
So there is a way to do that.
But often when people have been depressed for long periods of time, that's very hard.
(25:50):
And so medication can actually help them get to a normal level so they can actually start thinking different and start doing the things that are a little bit harder to do.
But as far as making the diagnosis, medication or not, I personally leave that up to the client and the doctor to figure out.
(26:10):
And then normally, I just give the client hope in saying, I can help you feel as good as possible if you want to do the work.
And sometimes people just rather do the medication.
It is a lot easier to do it that way.
For most things that are ailing people, it is easier to do it that way.
(26:31):
We know that in a perfect world, when we have the answer to a problem, we can just follow through and that works brilliantly.
But I'm just wondering, even though you have studied counseling, you know how the mind works, you see what the scriptures say about that, are there still times that you have to give yourself a stern talking to, to remind yourself of some of these practices in your own life?
(26:56):
Yes.
So one of the things that I struggled with growing up because of home life and school life, I really struggled with just my own self-confidence in who I was.
Of course, when I rededicated my life, God really began to do a work in me to help me to feel secure in who He was.
(27:18):
So I didn't go around telling myself that I was a loser or I was a failure every time something went wrong.
I know better than that.
However, this is true for most people, I think, but it is true for me.
I still have negative thoughts that pop into my mind easily, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
(27:39):
It depends on how long I ruminate on it.
I do need to say, Healey, you need to get up and go do what you know is true.
When it really came up a lot was I just recently released a children's book on forgiveness.
That has created so much self-doubt.
I was really surprised that so much came up for me.
(28:02):
So it's like, oh, if you don't sell a book, like, oh, it's a terrible book, like nobody cares, and I did have to have a stern talking to myself and a lot of prayer of like, God, thanks for reminding me.
I'm not here for anybody else.
I'm here for you, so I don't care.
I can't let that sink in.
(28:22):
I just have to, it's okay.
What's my purpose?
What am I doing here?
I'm here to please the Lord, and that is it.
I can write 20 books, and none of them sell.
If I was obedient to the Lord, then that is good.
So yes, Rodney, I have a stern talking to myself a lot.
(28:46):
Now you have written a number of books.
You also write a blog.
If people are wanting to get in touch with you or to read some more of your works, where's the easiest place for people to find you?
Facebook, I'm there a lot.
That's an easy place to find me, but through my website, you can email me or see things that I have available, free resources and writing and all sorts of thoughts.
(29:14):
So if you really want to know me, you can go there.
It's writtenbyhealey.com.
I will make sure that there are links in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can find you easily because I'm sure that some of the things you've raised are things that people will want to know a whole lot more about and they want to connect.
But Healey, thank you so much for telling me part of your story and for your time on Bleeding Daylight today.
(29:39):
I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Me too.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome, thanks for listening.
Keep the conversation going by connecting with Bleeding Daylight on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok or other social media platforms.
(00:31):
You'll find all the links at bleedingdaylight.net as well as dozens of other episodes of Bleeding Daylight.
Is it possible to change the way we think?
Are we able to disrupt negative thought patterns to find healing and freedom?
Today's guest not only believes it's possible, she helps others discover how they can change their thinking.
(01:03):
Today, I'm very excited to welcome Healey Ikerd.
Healey's journey has taken her from a small town in Oklahoma to serving in the U.S. Army and later working in mental health for over 17 years.
As the manager of her private counseling practice, Hope Life Counseling, Healey brings a wealth of experience and compassion to her clients.
(01:26):
She's also a published author who has written a number of books, including Changing Your Feelings, a workbook for anxiety and worry from a Christian perspective.
Healey, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you so much, Rodney.
I'm happy to be here.
You do spend a lot of time helping people work through and find release from issues such as anxiety, fear, worry, and anger.
(01:51):
Were there times in your life where those things marked your own life?
Well, when I was younger, I probably had a lot of fear, not so much anxiety, although I'm not sure that anxiety was really a word back when I grew up.
But I did have a lot of fear and a lot of self-doubt, a lot of anger.
That's just some of the things that I experienced in my family.
(02:13):
So those were emotions that I knew I felt, but other things, probably not so much.
Tell me about those earlier years.
It wasn't all plain sailing for you, was it?
No, it was pretty hard.
Growing up in Oklahoma, it was a small little town, so I was a little different than the other kids just complexion-wise.
(02:34):
That was kind of hard times to fit in a little bit.
I experienced a lot of bullying and teasing as I got into older years.
My parents argued a lot.
They had a very troubled marriage.
I spent a lot of my time in my closet when they argued, just out of fear.
It was very scary to me.
(02:57):
So I learned that's what you do when scary things are going on, you hide.
I kind of mimic that still when I get a little bit overwhelmed with emotion, that I tend to just go somewhere else and cope.
I learned that from my early years.
Where did things go from there?
Where did faith figure in your life at that stage?
(03:17):
Well, one thing about my parents, they were very adamant about having faith in my brother, my life.
I am very thankful for that.
We didn't really practice Christianity in our home per se, but they were very focused on getting us to Sunday school every Sunday.
My mom taught us to pray, so we prayed every night.
(03:39):
I really believe that God had given me a gift of faith because at a very young age, I was very prayerful and really believed that Jesus could heal and do the things that I prayed for.
One example, my mom told me that I didn't even remember.
She said that I was sucking my thumb really bad.
I was in second grade, still sucking my thumb.
(04:00):
I was getting sores on them really bad.
She was very distressed and bringing me to doctors.
They put mittens on and tied them up, put medicine on and terrible tasting stuff.
It didn't matter.
I was still in the morning sucking my thumb.
One day, she noticed that I wasn't sucking my thumb anymore.
(04:20):
She asked me what happened.
I said, well, I prayed to Jesus and He helped me stop.
I thought, wow, that's really good for a young girl to just have such strong faith.
I often find that kids have a really strong faith.
They pray and they believe.
We kind of lose that over the years.
As young children, we can just take at face value this idea of faith and the opportunities that that presents, such as a young girl praying for something as simple as, I need to stop sucking my thumb.
(04:52):
Suddenly, there is release from that.
What do you think it is that along the way causes us to lose that childlike faith?
I believe probably it is because God doesn't answer every one of our prayers in the way that we expect.
He seems to be gracious to young children, at least to me, because even raising my son, I found that, wow, when my son prays for stuff, God really just answers.
(05:17):
It's kind of crazy.
When we're older, we're praying for big things, like big healings usually, or someone to return to the Lord, or some big things.
Sometimes God doesn't answer in the way that we expect.
I think it can really challenge our thinking and maybe dishearten us a little bit.
Is God really there?
Is He really listening?
(05:38):
Does He care about my problems?
Maybe our faith withers a little with that.
You mentioned that your parents used to argue a lot, and I know that that didn't end well for them.
Do you think that that was something that caused your faith to take a battering when your parents decided that they would end their marriage?
(06:00):
Once my parents told me that they were divorcing, I really did have a very difficult time.
I remember they sat us down, and I was 16, and they told us.
I just ran out of the house and got in my truck and drove and tried to process it all.
I felt to blame for a lot of it, because they argued about me a lot.
(06:21):
I took a lot of that myself.
I didn't really blame God for that.
That's why I think sometimes faith is a gift too, because it's weird that I didn't question Him a lot of things.
Even when a lot of bad stuff happened, I just would be like, I don't understand, but I still love you.
After my parents divorced, I kind of went downhill as far as my behavior.
(06:46):
I really felt lost and feeling down and sad.
I definitely didn't feel joy in my life.
I began drinking heavily, started sleeping around, just cursing, and just not what a young Christian girl would do.
Although I would still say I loved God and still believed in Him and believed in His Son, it wasn't until many years later that God did a work in me and caused me to rededicate my life and really understand what it means to follow the Lord instead of just head and not any obedience.
(07:27):
Pete So often people can give up on us, yet God doesn't.
He keeps calling us back and calling us back.
What was that moment for you that you heard His call and you said, okay, I'm done with all of this.
I need to follow Him as Lord.
I had a son out of wedlock, and so he was about a year old, and I was attending a Bible study.
(07:49):
We were studying the book of Romans.
It was a ladies Bible study, but a gentleman was leading it.
He read Romans 12 too, so it's do not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
It was like suddenly I could just hear God speak to my spirit and just say, Healey, you need to choose.
(08:12):
Are you going to follow me or the world?
I'm like, what are you talking about?
Of course I'm going to follow you.
I'm here in a Bible study.
I just had a couple of visions flash in my mind of me trying to walk two paths and me straddling a fence.
My sin became very evident to me in that moment that just on the drive back to work, I was like, oh my goodness, like, Lord, I'm so sorry.
(08:41):
I've been lying, cussing, sleeping around, drinking.
Of course I'm looking like the rest of the world, even though I would claim that's not where my heart was.
From that time, I bought myself a study Bible and I read that Bible.
(09:01):
I had not read it before as far as deeply.
I normally just would read the red words in the New Testament.
I really got into the word and it transformed my life.
I really understood what surrender meant and living under his lordship of just living according to the word.
(09:26):
We are different when we're Christians.
We live a different life.
We look different.
We think different.
We feel different.
Everything should change when we have surrendered our life to him.
I am so thankful he didn't leave me, even though my life was a big old mess, that he was still there loving me, guiding me back to him, helping me get to a place that was a lot more peaceful in my heart.
(09:53):
I want to know a little bit about your journey to become a counselor.
What was it that precipitated that?
What was it that made you think, I need to help others in their own journey in life?
Well, when I was in the military, I was stationed in Italy and that's where I rededicated my life.
I decided to go back to school to get a human relations master's degree.
(10:15):
In that coursework, there were a few counseling classes.
We were doing some role playing of the different theories in counseling.
One of the professors said, well, you're really good at this, Haley.
I was like, oh, thank you very much.
But I really didn't think anything of it.
But as I was transitioning out of the military, what do I want to do with my life?
(10:41):
I love helping people.
I always have.
People have normally come to me my whole life and ask me things and questions and ponderings and all that.
When I really sat down and thought about what do I want to do, that professor came back to mind and thought, I would love to do that.
(11:02):
I looked up the qualifications and I had to go back to school and get a whole another master's degree.
It took me forever because I was a single parent at the time.
I was working full time.
So it was a really hard process, but I finally got through and now it's hard to think that that was that long ago.
There's obviously a difference between the sorts of help that we can offer people, understanding how the mind works, understanding how people operate and being able to give them some of the tools to go forward in life in a better way to counteract those sorts of things like worry and anxiety.
(11:41):
But then there's a difference between that and the deep healing that only comes through Christ.
So as a counselor, how do you balance those things?
How do you bring that talk of faith into the practice so that you're not doing something that the client isn't asking for, but at the same time, you know that this is what will bring the healing?
(12:02):
There are a lot of guidelines around being a counselor.
I do advertise myself as a Christian counselor.
So I do get a lot of Christians that come in and they give permission for that through my intake form.
Then I feel pretty open that I can talk and share.
If they're not, it is a bigger challenge for me because when you are grounded in Christ, that's a firm foundation.
(12:28):
It's hard to just help people when there's not necessarily a foundation, like they're their own foundation.
We know in our experiences, that's pretty wobbly.
The great thing about the Bible is that there is a lot of truth there.
You can share that with people without the Christianese part of that.
(12:50):
You can just share the truth of that.
One of those things is learning how to change your thoughts and how you think about yourself and how you think about other people.
The concepts of forgiveness, that's universal with everybody.
For example, forgiveness is one of those things that will reduce anger, reduce stress, increase peace.
(13:12):
That's for everybody.
That's not just Christians.
When we work to think better about ourselves, it doesn't matter.
That's just the truth that's going to come through for people, that when you start thinking truthful thoughts, that's going to help the way that you feel.
That is going to decrease stress and depression, and it's going to decrease anxiety and worry.
(13:37):
That's one thing I love about the Bible, that you can just share truth.
You don't have to say, that's in John 14, whatever.
You can just share the truth that the Bible has and transforms people.
You mentioned the amazing power that is held in forgiveness, but I suppose forgiveness is one of those topics that can be misunderstood, that there are people who think, oh, forgiveness, that means I have to just pretend like something didn't happen and move on and just try and go back to what was normal before.
(14:12):
What are some of the misconceptions around forgiveness that you have to work through with some of the people that you're talking to?
That is one of the myths, that you just sweep it under the rug and act like it doesn't happen, and that is not true.
Acting like it didn't hurt you is not true.
Some of the first steps of forgiveness is first acknowledging that it did hurt you, that it was painful, that someone did something, and that you're allowed to feel and express those emotions.
(14:43):
I remember I helped one lady work through the forgiveness of her abuser, which you would think, that's like a hard one.
I've heard so many forgiveness stories in my life, it is amazing.
I think those are very hard for people to go, it seems like I'm giving them a pass, but when you really work through the pain and what it has caused you, and then when you can bring faith into it, that helps us.
(15:12):
We forgive because we are forgiven.
We forgive because God's asked us to do that.
It doesn't mean it's going to be easy, it doesn't mean it's not going to be painful, it doesn't mean you're not going to have to do it over and over again, even for the same offense.
It is very, of course, helpful, but definitely hard to process.
(15:34):
Have there been people you've been working with who have initially been resistant to that idea of offering forgiveness, and yet have then gone through the steps and experienced the release that it brings?
I would say most people are resistant to it anytime I bring it up.
But as we talk about what it is and what it's not, and how you can still create boundaries afterwards, it doesn't mean that you have to be friends with them or anything like that, that they can do that.
(16:06):
Yes, but I would say the lady that I worked with on forgiving her abuser, she was resistant, but she felt such freedom that didn't have power over her anymore, and it healed her in and out of that whole experience.
There's something powerful in forgiveness that's unlike anything that we can explain.
(16:32):
Forgiveness doesn't mean that we must put ourselves back in the place of danger with a person who is not safe to be around, does it?
That is correct, and that's one of the parts of the process that we talk about what that looks like.
Does it mean reconciliation, or does it mean, for example, an abuser?
That would not be a situation you put yourself in, so we talk and work through how to set up boundaries if it's someone that's manipulating, how to identify that and not let that happen, especially when it's somebody that's not safe.
(17:05):
People really do have to work through that part of learning how to have those boundaries, what that actually looks like, and then be able to follow through on that.
A lot of people do believe that once I forgive them, then we're all good and back in the relationship, and we have to evaluate to see, is that relationship a good one to be in?
(17:27):
Because sometimes they're not.
Now, sometimes you do need to reconcile and make things right as far as you can on your side.
I want to talk about your book, Changing Your Feelings, a workbook for anxiety and worry from a Christian perspective.
It's interesting.
It has a title, Changing Your Feelings, because so often people will think, well, I can't change the way I feel.
(17:51):
I can change my response to it, but can I really change the way I feel?
Tell me about that book.
Tell me what made you decide, this is the book I need to write.
When you're a counselor or probably in whatever profession, when you have a certain profession, people just naturally come up and ask you questions or talk to you about things.
(18:11):
As you can imagine, as a counselor, a lot of people do ask a lot of questions and tell you a lot of things.
One thing that I kept having friends come ask me were questions about anxiety.
I thought, oh, let me just create a little something for them.
I was writing out things or writing in text, a lot of the same things, and just thought this would be helpful for people.
(18:32):
It kind of morphed into this big book because as I would do this section on coping skills, then I was like, well, I really need to talk about how the brain works too.
Because if you're going to talk about coping, you kind of need to know why coping helps or what's going on in your brain when anxiety hits and so how you can calm yourself down.
(18:52):
So I ended up making the whole thing.
It's got everything from identity to panic attacks to worry to how the brain works and all that.
The one thing I wanted to do was because there's not a whole lot of how to change your feelings in using the Bible and thinking about healing and identity and panic and all that, because it seems like a very secular problem.
(19:18):
But when Christians feel anxiety, it feels even more problematic because the Bible tells us to do not fear, do not feel anxious.
Part of the book is trying to normalize like anxiety is not a bad thing.
It's a God-given emotion.
That's good.
But he doesn't want us to dwell in certain kind of emotions all the time, like sadness or anger or frustration.
(19:44):
We need to feel those things, but be able to move on at some point.
And you're exactly right.
I hear a lot of the times, I can't help the way that I feel.
And I tell, that is not true.
Because tell me, if you're feeling down and you go have lunch with a friend, do you not feel better?
You're actively working at changing something.
(20:05):
Or if you feel down and you decide to watch a comedy, you're actively doing something to change the way that you feel.
And so it doesn't mean we deny our feelings, but just recognizing we can change the way that we feel.
And it is a good thing because our emotions shouldn't control us.
We control them.
God wants us to control them because most of the time when we make decisions out of emotion, those are not good ones.
(20:31):
They will cause us to do crazy things.
And I'm sure that brings an enormous relief to people knowing that it doesn't have to stay this way.
I'm not locked into something.
What I used to feel was this, but now I can change those feelings.
What I used to believe about my feelings was this, but I'm not locked into that forever.
(20:53):
That must bring amazing relief for so many people.
I have found that to be so true that people are very relieved to hear you do not have to act out of your feelings.
You have control over them.
Once I can actually get them to believe that, the rest is a lot easier and that they remind themselves whenever they want to act out of emotion or do something that's very emotion-based, that they can take a moment to think about that.
(21:25):
And sometimes we have to calm ourselves down, take a few deep breaths and think through, do I really need to say this right now?
Is that going to be helpful?
Or think of the times that you've had a lot of anger.
At least for me, I know I have felt like doing some crazy things, but I think good mental health helps you identify that's not a good thing to do.
(21:49):
You might feel like doing it, but it doesn't mean you have to do it.
And I think that's one of the big issues in our society nowadays.
We follow our emotions way too much, and that is the cause of a lot of poor decision-making instead of using our God-given wisdom on how to handle situations.
(22:11):
Being healthy is hard, so it's not an easy thing to do, but it's definitely possible.
So often we hear from people saying, but this is what I feel, this is what I'm experiencing, therefore I must go with this.
And yet the scripture will tell us something different.
It will say, actually there can be control.
(22:32):
You can change that a person can become a new creation in Christ.
How difficult is that to communicate to some people who have swallowed the story that the world gives that, no, no, you must follow your feelings, that if you're feeling a certain way, that's what you must act on.
Yeah, I think to help them just see decisions that they've made in those emotions and to see and to evaluate, because when you're feeling like a normal range of feelings, you can kind of assess those times better.
(23:05):
Like when somebody did this and I cursed them out, or I flipped a table or whatever, was that really a good decision?
Is that who you are?
The heart's to see you full above all else, the Bible tells us.
So it's not really biblical at all to follow our feelings or our heart, because that's not true.
(23:26):
Sometimes we feel unloved, but does that mean we are not loved?
Honestly, most of the time that's not true.
We can feel like nobody loves us, but that's not even true.
Or we can feel rejected, but nobody's actually rejected us.
Or we can feel like we're all alone or that nobody cares, but in fact, many people care.
(23:51):
That's why we can't listen to those things, because typically they're not ever truthful.
They're not ever truthful thoughts that we're having.
Depression will normally tell us to, hey, stay in bed.
You don't feel like doing anything.
You don't feel like you don't want to go hang out.
You don't want to do all these things.
And that only reinforces the feeling that we don't even want to have.
(24:14):
So if we instead get up, go do something, we are going to feel better.
That's a prime example of not listening to your emotions, because they just want us to keep feeling.
And feeling's okay.
I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling anger.
You just have to control your actions after that.
(24:35):
In the same way, there's nothing wrong with feeling sadness, but within context, you should work to overcome that.
If someone's just passed away, of course, you're going to feel sadness and you just need to feel that.
But if you're waking up in the morning and there's no particular reason, you can work to change that feeling.
You don't have to just go, oh, this is just the way that I am.
That's not true.
(24:56):
I'm interested in the idea of helping people with depression.
Obviously, there are actions we can take, beliefs about ourselves, beliefs about others, that are going to help our mental state in depression.
But there are also medications that people would use to counteract that.
How do we find that balance when there is something that needs medication, just as every other illness does, and that behavioral change?
(25:25):
Well, I don't normally tell clients that they need it.
If they're going to a doctor and the doctor feels like that's helpful, I will agree.
If they feel like they want to be able to come off the medication, that we can work and do to the brain what the medication does.
So there is a way to do that.
But often when people have been depressed for long periods of time, that's very hard.
(25:50):
And so medication can actually help them get to a normal level so they can actually start thinking different and start doing the things that are a little bit harder to do.
But as far as making the diagnosis, medication or not, I personally leave that up to the client and the doctor to figure out.
(26:10):
And then normally, I just give the client hope in saying, I can help you feel as good as possible if you want to do the work.
And sometimes people just rather do the medication.
It is a lot easier to do it that way.
For most things that are ailing people, it is easier to do it that way.
(26:31):
We know that in a perfect world, when we have the answer to a problem, we can just follow through and that works brilliantly.
But I'm just wondering, even though you have studied counseling, you know how the mind works, you see what the scriptures say about that, are there still times that you have to give yourself a stern talking to, to remind yourself of some of these practices in your own life?
(26:56):
Yes.
So one of the things that I struggled with growing up because of home life and school life, I really struggled with just my own self-confidence in who I was.
Of course, when I rededicated my life, God really began to do a work in me to help me to feel secure in who He was.
(27:18):
So I didn't go around telling myself that I was a loser or I was a failure every time something went wrong.
I know better than that.
However, this is true for most people, I think, but it is true for me.
I still have negative thoughts that pop into my mind easily, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
(27:39):
It depends on how long I ruminate on it.
I do need to say, Healey, you need to get up and go do what you know is true.
When it really came up a lot was I just recently released a children's book on forgiveness.
That has created so much self-doubt.
I was really surprised that so much came up for me.
(28:02):
So it's like, oh, if you don't sell a book, like, oh, it's a terrible book, like nobody cares, and I did have to have a stern talking to myself and a lot of prayer of like, God, thanks for reminding me.
I'm not here for anybody else.
I'm here for you, so I don't care.
I can't let that sink in.
(28:22):
I just have to, it's okay.
What's my purpose?
What am I doing here?
I'm here to please the Lord, and that is it.
I can write 20 books, and none of them sell.
If I was obedient to the Lord, then that is good.
So yes, Rodney, I have a stern talking to myself a lot.
(28:46):
Now you have written a number of books.
You also write a blog.
If people are wanting to get in touch with you or to read some more of your works, where's the easiest place for people to find you?
Facebook, I'm there a lot.
That's an easy place to find me, but through my website, you can email me or see things that I have available, free resources and writing and all sorts of thoughts.
(29:14):
So if you really want to know me, you can go there.
It's writtenbyhealey.com.
I will make sure that there are links in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that people can find you easily because I'm sure that some of the things you've raised are things that people will want to know a whole lot more about and they want to connect.
But Healey, thank you so much for telling me part of your story and for your time on Bleeding Daylight today.
(29:39):
I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Me too.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.