September 28, 2025 • 30 mins
In this compelling episode of Bleeding Daylight, host Rodney Olsen sits down with Scott Fehrenbacher, a visionary leader who has spent his career proving that faith and innovation are not just compatible, they're essential partners. As CEO of Worship Road Radio Foundation, Scott has built Canada's fastest-growing Christian broadcaster using a revolutionary model that prioritises listener experience. His journey spans multiple industries, from leading NASDAQ-traded companies to serving as CEO of Habitat for Humanity Vancouver, and playing a pivotal role in transforming Grand Canyon University from a small school of under 1,000 students into the world's largest Christian university.
Scott challenges the common perception that Christians are always behind the technological curve, arguing instead that believers should be at the forefront of innovation. Through candid discussion, he shares insights from his pioneering work in digital ministry, beginning in the early days of the internet when he helped create what became the largest faith-based destination on the web. His philosophy centres on having dreams so audacious that they require divine intervention to succeed, and his practical wisdom offers a roadmap for anyone seeking to innovate for the sake of the gospel while maintaining biblical foundations.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome and thank you so much for listening to Bleeding Daylight today.
You can explore more inspiring episodes at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:30):
As you listen, please consider who else needs to hear today's episode.
Then share it by word of mouth or social media.
Today I'm talking to a dreamer and innovator.
He's been at the forefront of change across a number of sectors, including changing the expectation around the style of Christian radio in North America.
(00:53):
I'll introduce you in just a moment.
I'm thrilled to introduce my guest today.
Scott Fehrenbacher is someone who's spent his working life proving that faith and innovation don't just coexist, they can absolutely thrive together.
(01:15):
As CEO of Worship Road Radio Foundation, he's built Canada's fastest growing Christian broadcaster.
Scott's journey to get there is what's really fascinating.
From leading a NASDAQ traded company to serving as CEO of Habitat for Humanity Vancouver and helping grow Grand Canyon University from under 1,000 students to what's now the largest Christian university in the world.
(01:40):
He's got an incredible knack for taking organizations that are doing good work and asking, what if we dreamed bigger?
Scott, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you very much, Rodney.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Now, your list of career achievements is impressive, to say the least.
We could spend a lot of time talking about all that you've done, but I'm wondering, what do you see as your biggest accomplishments?
(02:02):
I would say besides being a husband and a father, which certainly are my biggest accomplishments from a professional point of view, I would have to say that the opportunity to really change ministry from a pre-internet world to a post-internet world was probably the most impactful thing I've done in my professional career.
(02:28):
And it was a really exciting time, but not one that was easy.
It's not an easy road when we do try and change what's already existing and what has stood for so long.
And Christians can often be behind the curve when it comes to innovation.
So tell me about the innovation that you brought to bear in those early days and what was it actually all about?
(02:52):
We were looking at what the world was doing with America Online, if you remember that, and some of the original and early web-based concepts.
It was, as we say here in the West, the wild, wild West.
The policies, the protocols were all being built as we moved on.
(03:16):
I think one of the things that people say is we built the airplane while we were flying it.
As you mentioned, Rodney, it's so true that, unfortunately, what I've found in the faith-based space is that we're not usually early adopters.
We're reactionaries, perhaps.
We're kind of following along.
(03:37):
I've always somewhat rebelled against.
It seems to me if we're representing the creator of the universe, we should be on the forefront.
We should be innovating with confidence.
So what we found in creating what we wanted it to be, and it turned out to be the largest destination on the web for faith-based believers to find content that's relevant to them, we had to go out to a number of ministries and convince them that their content would be valuable and effective if it was in a digital realm, if it was available to what we said then the World Wide Web.
(04:19):
What we found was a lot of, oh, I've never done that before, or I don't understand it, or, and you'll love this, what we're doing works.
That's just not the way we do things.
We did a lot of educating, a lot of face-to-face conversation, and we moved that needle one ministry at a time.
(04:41):
But eventually what we saw happen was people getting access to the gospel in a way that they never had before.
And it was really rewarding, Rodney, to see people understand that and their eyes opening to the power of technology and what that can do.
(05:02):
And really what I think is our responsibility with the Great Commission.
Darrell Bock There's always danger when we step into those new areas, and there certainly are dangers in that internet space, but how important is it for us as believers to be in those dangerous spaces?
Because if we know that they're going to bring people undone, we know there's a lot of darkness online now, that it's very much part of how we live and work day by day.
(05:29):
So how much more important is it that we are there and shining the light of the gospel into those spaces?
Rodney McClendon Precisely.
We don't want to put our head in the sand.
I don't think the gospel ever really talked about being safe.
It talked about doing exactly the opposite.
And you're an example of that.
You are creating a podcast, a brand new communication tool, one that many people may not understand the power of.
(05:56):
So you're living it yourself.
We're seeing it every day, how this has changed people's eternities.
That's really what this is all about for me.
Darrell Bock I know that the end game is really to bring people into fellowship with Jesus and in fellowship with fellow believers.
(06:16):
And that can be difficult to do in an online space.
And I hear that from people, even pastors who say, hey, look, during COVID, we had to do our services online and that was great for that time.
But now we want everyone back in the church.
And so they've discontinued their online services.
But what I'm afraid that does is those people who aren't yet ready to step back into the church are missing out.
(06:41):
So how do we balance that when we're trying to innovate, when we're trying to use technology?
Rodney McClendon I think what you're referring to is a bit of a black and white philosophy.
You're either all in or you're all out.
But really, it's both.
It's using the technology where it can work and matter.
But that doesn't mean that it's at the exclusion of my small group meeting in my house once a week and having fellowship or going to church, plus other activities that I could only do online.
(07:13):
So it's not either or, it's both and.
And I think if you look at the data, the data shows that those churches that are embracing it and figuring out a way to expand their reach, expand to those that are hearing their message, but not at the sacrifice of those who feel very comfortable or even have the opportunity to visit their church.
(07:37):
I'll give you an example.
My wife goes to church twice a week, once locally, but once with a church in Nashville, Tennessee that she's just totally fallen in love with, with the message of the pastor, the beauty of the worship.
She certainly feels a part of that church, but in a different way than the local church that we go to here outside of Vancouver.
(08:02):
So it's both and.
It's like saying, I don't want to listen to a podcast, I'll have coffee with somebody.
It's not one or the other, it's both and.
When we are innovating, how do we ensure that the gospel remains central?
Because we can be very busy in creating new ways to reach out to people with the best of hearts, but how do we continue to maintain that connection to God and that connection to the gospel of Jesus Christ as we're going forward?
(08:31):
I think it's as simple as understanding every day that's your foundation.
If we take an exit ramp off that road that leaves the foundation of the church, and frankly, I think some of our political issues today are doing that, then we get into trouble.
But technology has really no consistent connection to leaving the foundation of the gospel.
(08:58):
That's totally at the will of the person using that technology.
Your point is so important, Rodney, that whatever we do, the plumb line of that mission, of that communication, has to be the inherent word of the gospel.
One of the things that you're very much involved in, of course, CEO of Worship Road Radio Foundation.
(09:21):
I'd love to hear a bit of what you're doing there.
Rodney, for me personally, Christian music has been really important in my walk.
It has been inspiring.
It has been discipling.
It has been encouraging in tough times.
It has been an element of celebrating the hope that we have in Christ.
(09:41):
All of those things.
And I know it isn't for everybody, but I know that it is for a lot of people.
I have a tendency to always consider what we're doing.
Can we do it better?
Can we build a better mousetrap?
And frankly, I've had a frustration that a lot of Christian music radio programming is complacent.
(10:06):
It is a bit stale.
And we're happy with the audience we have, yet there's so many people that would benefit from hearing Christian music, even unbelievers.
There's an organization in the States called National Public Radio, or NPR.
They recently came out with research showing that Christian music has mental health benefits, even for non-believers.
(10:31):
To me, it's incumbent on us to use that tool to its best potential.
And frankly, what we have now in just traditional Christian music radio is too many ads and too many paid sermons, too many fundraising share-a-thons, and it really fatigues the listeners.
(10:52):
If you go to Reddit and you just write in Christian radio, you will quickly see some of the common problems and barriers that our present model has.
And so, at Worship Road Radio, we have jumped out to find a new business model that allows for accessible music in a digital realm with studio quality.
(11:17):
You don't have to worry about if you get too far away from the tower that you can't hear it anymore, right?
You can hear it in Perth, as well as London, or right here in Vancouver, the very same quality.
And we also wanted to do this in a way that it was simply a pact with our listeners that when you come here, you're going to listen to music.
(11:38):
When you come here, you may come here because you have a need, an emotional need, a need for inspiration.
You're not going to be met with someone just asking for money or commercial about a tire shop.
You're going to hear music.
Now, to do that, we needed a different kind of business model.
We're a non-profit, and we've been doing this almost two years now, and I'm just so encouraged that it is a brand new way to get Christian message through music around the world.
(12:10):
So tell me, how do you fund a non-profit to be providing that quality of music to people around the world?
Here's where technology comes in.
Our overhead and our costs, being a digital station from the first day, using the different technologies that are now available that weren't available 24 months ago, our expenses are a small fraction of what a traditional Christian radio station or any radio station has been.
(12:42):
So the amounts of revenue that we need to generate is far less to earn the same kind of margins that allow us to be sustainable.
And so what we simply do is a model that allows a sponsor to sponsor an hour of music.
So at the top of every hour, Rodney, we might say, please support our sponsor Bleeding Daylight Podcast for the next hour.
(13:08):
They have allowed us to have uninterrupted music without ads or fundraising to support Bleeding Daylight Podcast, go to, you know, whatever your website is.
That is very unintrusive.
It still allows for relevant messages from ministry-minded people to talk to our listeners in a very unannoying fashion, if you will.
(13:33):
And so just that revenue stream alone with a little bit of donor help from those who really see our vision, that sustains our station in a way that not only do we sustain, but we continue to grow.
We just launched a magazine called Breakout Magazine.
It's an e-magazine.
It specifically features new and emerging Christian artists, something you can't really find anywhere else.
(14:01):
And so that revenue stream is allowing us to grow and really allowing us most importantly, Rodney, to serve our listeners.
I'm sure that even though you've only been going for a couple of years, you've heard some incredible testimonies of people that have been just so thankful that there is something different that is going on, that you're seeing ministry in a different way.
(14:24):
Can you tell me perhaps one or two stories of those who have really benefited from this new model of radio?
Great question.
So we're in Canada.
You probably know that Canada is a very large geographic country, but not necessarily with huge population throughout.
And so it's very difficult in a traditional business model to get music out with small little stations in these small towns.
(14:51):
It's economically not feasible.
To answer your question, we're introducing people to Christian music that have not even heard it before.
They don't even know what it is.
They're thinking it's going to be like a church hymn.
I got an email just last week from someone in Ontario, a province here in Canada.
(15:12):
And it's like, finally, finally, I have access to music I didn't even know existed.
I knew it was out there, but I'd never heard it.
Thank you so much.
I hope you're around next year because I listen to you all the time.
I don't know what was the driving force for him to listen to this music, but you know it was something spiritual.
(15:32):
It was an itch that the gospel message through this music is scratching.
We hear that a lot.
It's what makes it all worthwhile.
Oftentimes I imagine it's also a matter of not just that they're hearing something that is uplifting and pointing them to Jesus, but if they've moved away from some of the traditional stations they've listened to, they're not hearing some of those negative messages that can come from some secular music.
(16:00):
You know, it's so interesting, isn't it, that we all understand the power of marketing and the power of putting those words into our head for the benefit of sales or getting us to do something.
Yet the same thing happens in music.
If you're constantly listening to violent, aggressive, demeaning, vulgar music, there's a consequence to that.
(16:25):
I'm not saying that that music's all bad.
I'm not saying that you should never listen to anything but Christian music.
But you're absolutely right.
And I think that that's why the mental health benefits of Christian music are so apparent in this culture right now.
It's because it's wonderful to have hope.
It's wonderful to see a future that's inspiring.
(16:48):
You know, one of the things that really led me to this same vision, there's a common phrase in traditional Christian radio of playing music that's safe.
I don't like that.
I don't think you find the word safe in the Bible very much.
Now, I understand it.
I had children.
I know you don't want to have the radio on and introduce them to things that you didn't have any power over.
(17:14):
But I think we should have a higher standard.
We should be inspiring people.
We should be encouraging people.
We should be opening hearts in a way that hadn't been done before.
And for me, Rodney, I think music is one of the final frontiers of communication that haven't been politicized, that doesn't have baggage around it, but allows the Holy Spirit to really talk to your heart.
(17:40):
I'm a huge advocate for this, of course.
And I think that this is one thing to avoid some of those negative images and negative words that can come through otherwise.
Now, I know that this question might sort of start to give away your age, but tell me who were some of those initial Christian musicians that you started listening to that got you hooked on Christian music?
(18:05):
Oh my gosh, so years and years ago, not quite back to the dinosaurs, but I lived in Houston, Texas, just got married to my wife, heard the very first Christian station called KSBJ.
They played this song from a group called Second Chapter of Acts.
And I thought, oh my gosh, I love that song.
(18:27):
I mean, I'm listening to Ted Nugent and Journey.
I love Journey.
But it's like, here's something that I can really get into, and I didn't even know it existed.
And another ancillary to that, I had my boys.
We lived in Washington, D.C., and I take them to a D.C. talk concert when they're about eight years old.
(18:50):
We're in the stands there at the arena.
They start playing, and my oldest son Rainer, he looks up at me and he says, Dad, Dad, can we listen to this music?
Yes.
Yes, we can.
It was just another part of my journey that was like, you know, we are not doing ourselves a favor by not getting this out, by not using this valuable tool.
(19:18):
And I assume you know that Christian music as a quality has risen so much.
I was on the Gospel Music Association Board of Directors that does the Dove Awards for a couple of terms in Nashville.
It was fascinating to see and really understand how the quality of this music and industry and artists have risen to the very top, and I'm really proud of it.
(19:44):
Taking a different turn now, tell me about your work with Grand Canyon University and what that's all about.
So I was recruited to a small school in Phoenix, Arizona.
I'm a real believer in Christian education.
They recruited me because I knew the Christian space.
They knew the university space.
(20:04):
They saw an opportunity to fill a hole in that Christian education in the U.S. is so expensive.
If you're in Phoenix, Arizona, you have choices of going to Southern California Christian schools that cost between $45,000 and $65,000 a year just in tuition.
(20:29):
We're really creating a very narrow social class that has access to Christian education, and I don't believe in that.
The vision of the president that recruited me was we need to democratize Christian education and make it accessible, and the way we do that is that we grow the online access to Christian education, and we use that to help grow our local destination campus here in Phoenix.
(21:01):
And people say, well, why would you do online education?
If you look at the history of education itself, you have the ivory tower mentality.
If you're smart enough, we'll teach you.
If you're rich enough, we'll let you come to school.
But then you've got to do it on our campus, on our terms.
(21:22):
But we all understand that the culture has changed for two people working in families.
Costs are completely different than it used to be, and if we want it accessible, we need to make Christian education accessible on your terms when you have time, usually at night, on your day off, on the weekends.
And so I really understood the value of online education, especially after growing crosswalk.com.
(21:49):
We turned that into no students online to over 70,000 students online in seven years, and that allowed our campus to grow.
Today, it's about 27,000 students on campus.
Now, I wouldn't recommend that pace of growth.
The students, instead of calling it Grand Canyon University, they called it Grand Construction University because we always had brand new buildings.
(22:18):
We're just growing and growing and growing.
But, you know, it wasn't growing for money's sake.
It was growing because we hit a vein of demand.
I'm here in northern New Mexico, and there's no Christian school around.
I can't afford a California Christian school.
Our tuition was about 25% of the California schools.
(22:42):
We delivered a great educational product that was convenient for the very first time and affordable for the very first time.
If you talk about building the kingdom, we should have as few barriers to that as we can.
And yet Christian education had lots of barriers.
If you sat back and looked at it, a lot of barriers.
(23:03):
And so I was very fortunate as a senior vice president and on the executive team at GCU, I learned so much.
But moving it into the digital realm changed Christian education.
And today, like you said, Rodney, it is the largest Christian university in the world.
You keep saying about various things, what if we dreamed bigger and thinking of how do we do this differently so that it's more effective?
(23:28):
I'm sure that there are people listening at the moment, and they're doing their day-to-day work in the same way that they have.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
We need to find that way to make things work.
But for the person who's thinking, I really do need to start dreaming bigger.
I really do need to look at, is there a way to innovate this for the sake of the gospel in my day-to-day work, in my family life?
(23:52):
How do we start to get that mindset around change, not for change's sake, but for the sake of innovating and growing for the gospel?
I think it comes down to the word purpose.
What's our purpose?
I had a mentor years ago, or having breakfast one day, and I had this opportunity in front of me, and I talked to him.
(24:15):
I said, Jeff, I'm very comfortable with what I'm doing in my hometown, my kids in school.
What should I do?
What would you do?
And he said, Scott, let me ask you one question.
When is the last time the Lord's will was in your comfort zone?
And I immediately said, Rodney, I said, Jeff, I wish you never would have said that, because I'm never going to forget it.
(24:40):
And it really comes down to that for me.
Am I here to be comfortable?
No.
No, I don't think so.
Once you step out and really seek the obedience of following whatever God's put on your heart, it's not going to be easy, or it's not going to be comfortable.
But the reward, we all know this, the reward is something that man can't do, something we can't buy.
(25:06):
I have this motto that has driven me, because someone told it to me once, and I've held on to it, have a dream so big, so audacious, that without the direct intervention of the hand of God, it's inherently doomed to failure.
(25:26):
And what that says to me is, look, if you have a dream that you can do in your own talent, in your own resources, it's really not a dream.
It's just a goal.
But if you want to step out and say, Lord, I want to do what you're asking me to, but I know I can't do it on my own.
I know that you must intervene for this to happen.
(25:50):
It's scary as all get out, and I know a lot of your listeners do that and know that.
And I'm sure starting your podcast was like that.
But the reward is worth every bit of it, because these are eternal rewards that really mean something.
It's not a certificate on the wall.
It is the definition of real meaning.
(26:13):
It's a curse and a blessing at the same time.
So that's what drives me, and that's how I'd answer your question.
I know that there could be people listening thinking, well, it sounds like everything Scott touches turns to gold, but I'm sure that there have been setbacks along the way.
Can you tell me perhaps even about one of those setbacks where things didn't turn out as you had planned and the lessons that you were able to learn from that?
(26:38):
Yes.
Even the ones that work, we have many, many disappointments along the way.
We learn the simple things.
You've got to get back on your horse when you fall off the horse.
It's easy to feel like, Lord, the money is not catching up with my dream.
Do I just quit?
I don't over-spiritualize this, but that's when you get deeper into that dream.
(27:03):
That's when you get deeper into that dependence on the Lord.
Isn't that what the Lord wants us to be is dependent?
I don't want to tell you the name of the organization, but I was the CEO of one organization that I really felt like God opened the door to, but I soon learned that this organization, even though it had a Christian foundation when it was started, this organization turned away from God, and I was soon seen to be this person who threatened to re-Christianize the organization.
(27:43):
And it turned into a very negative and nasty cultural battle.
But on the other hand, it allowed me to say, listen, am I going to stand my ground or am I going to do what's comfortable and just be silent?
We won't know until we get to heaven what the seeds will germinate to that we planted, even in those tough days.
(28:12):
Even at Grand Canyon University, at Crosswalk, and of course here at Worship Road Radio, we run into those disappointments.
Those are small battles, but they're not the war.
We've got to be aware that God has different metrics for success than we do.
We often see things as it's gone smoothly or not, and oftentimes God is seeing success from a very different perspective, isn't he?
(28:37):
Oh, isn't that the truth?
It's so hard to keep that perspective, because everything around us tells us not to.
I mean, you have the same daily devotionals, and they help.
But for me, I need Christian music.
I need to be around the Word.
I don't want it, I need it.
Some would say, well, that's a crutch.
No, it's not.
If you understand God's economy, that's the fuel that we need to keep this race going.
(29:04):
Scott, if people are wanting to get in touch, find out a little bit more about Worship Radio, where is the best place for people to find you?
It's very easy.
Our website is worshiproad.com, and we have free apps that are the most effective way to get a hold of us.
Both Google and Apple, you just go to the store, put in Worship Road Radio, or if you have a smart speaker like Alexa, you just ask it to play Worship Road Radio.
(29:32):
We're available 24-7.
We're never going to ask you for money, and we're going to keep access to inspiration at your fingertips.
The links are in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that you can find that easily if you didn't get to write that down as Scott was mentioning it.
But I just want to say, Scott, thank you so much for your time today on Bleeding Daylight.
(29:56):
Thank you for the story that you're still writing.
It's been a pleasure to chat with you.
Rodney, this has been my pleasure.
I love your show, and thank you for inviting me.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen.
Welcome and thank you so much for listening to Bleeding Daylight today.
You can explore more inspiring episodes at bleedingdaylight.net.
(00:30):
As you listen, please consider who else needs to hear today's episode.
Then share it by word of mouth or social media.
Today I'm talking to a dreamer and innovator.
He's been at the forefront of change across a number of sectors, including changing the expectation around the style of Christian radio in North America.
(00:53):
I'll introduce you in just a moment.
I'm thrilled to introduce my guest today.
Scott Fehrenbacher is someone who's spent his working life proving that faith and innovation don't just coexist, they can absolutely thrive together.
(01:15):
As CEO of Worship Road Radio Foundation, he's built Canada's fastest growing Christian broadcaster.
Scott's journey to get there is what's really fascinating.
From leading a NASDAQ traded company to serving as CEO of Habitat for Humanity Vancouver and helping grow Grand Canyon University from under 1,000 students to what's now the largest Christian university in the world.
(01:40):
He's got an incredible knack for taking organizations that are doing good work and asking, what if we dreamed bigger?
Scott, welcome to Bleeding Daylight.
Thank you very much, Rodney.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Now, your list of career achievements is impressive, to say the least.
We could spend a lot of time talking about all that you've done, but I'm wondering, what do you see as your biggest accomplishments?
(02:02):
I would say besides being a husband and a father, which certainly are my biggest accomplishments from a professional point of view, I would have to say that the opportunity to really change ministry from a pre-internet world to a post-internet world was probably the most impactful thing I've done in my professional career.
(02:28):
And it was a really exciting time, but not one that was easy.
It's not an easy road when we do try and change what's already existing and what has stood for so long.
And Christians can often be behind the curve when it comes to innovation.
So tell me about the innovation that you brought to bear in those early days and what was it actually all about?
(02:52):
We were looking at what the world was doing with America Online, if you remember that, and some of the original and early web-based concepts.
It was, as we say here in the West, the wild, wild West.
The policies, the protocols were all being built as we moved on.
(03:16):
I think one of the things that people say is we built the airplane while we were flying it.
As you mentioned, Rodney, it's so true that, unfortunately, what I've found in the faith-based space is that we're not usually early adopters.
We're reactionaries, perhaps.
We're kind of following along.
(03:37):
I've always somewhat rebelled against.
It seems to me if we're representing the creator of the universe, we should be on the forefront.
We should be innovating with confidence.
So what we found in creating what we wanted it to be, and it turned out to be the largest destination on the web for faith-based believers to find content that's relevant to them, we had to go out to a number of ministries and convince them that their content would be valuable and effective if it was in a digital realm, if it was available to what we said then the World Wide Web.
(04:19):
What we found was a lot of, oh, I've never done that before, or I don't understand it, or, and you'll love this, what we're doing works.
That's just not the way we do things.
We did a lot of educating, a lot of face-to-face conversation, and we moved that needle one ministry at a time.
(04:41):
But eventually what we saw happen was people getting access to the gospel in a way that they never had before.
And it was really rewarding, Rodney, to see people understand that and their eyes opening to the power of technology and what that can do.
(05:02):
And really what I think is our responsibility with the Great Commission.
Darrell Bock There's always danger when we step into those new areas, and there certainly are dangers in that internet space, but how important is it for us as believers to be in those dangerous spaces?
Because if we know that they're going to bring people undone, we know there's a lot of darkness online now, that it's very much part of how we live and work day by day.
(05:29):
So how much more important is it that we are there and shining the light of the gospel into those spaces?
Rodney McClendon Precisely.
We don't want to put our head in the sand.
I don't think the gospel ever really talked about being safe.
It talked about doing exactly the opposite.
And you're an example of that.
You are creating a podcast, a brand new communication tool, one that many people may not understand the power of.
(05:56):
So you're living it yourself.
We're seeing it every day, how this has changed people's eternities.
That's really what this is all about for me.
Darrell Bock I know that the end game is really to bring people into fellowship with Jesus and in fellowship with fellow believers.
(06:16):
And that can be difficult to do in an online space.
And I hear that from people, even pastors who say, hey, look, during COVID, we had to do our services online and that was great for that time.
But now we want everyone back in the church.
And so they've discontinued their online services.
But what I'm afraid that does is those people who aren't yet ready to step back into the church are missing out.
(06:41):
So how do we balance that when we're trying to innovate, when we're trying to use technology?
Rodney McClendon I think what you're referring to is a bit of a black and white philosophy.
You're either all in or you're all out.
But really, it's both.
It's using the technology where it can work and matter.
But that doesn't mean that it's at the exclusion of my small group meeting in my house once a week and having fellowship or going to church, plus other activities that I could only do online.
(07:13):
So it's not either or, it's both and.
And I think if you look at the data, the data shows that those churches that are embracing it and figuring out a way to expand their reach, expand to those that are hearing their message, but not at the sacrifice of those who feel very comfortable or even have the opportunity to visit their church.
(07:37):
I'll give you an example.
My wife goes to church twice a week, once locally, but once with a church in Nashville, Tennessee that she's just totally fallen in love with, with the message of the pastor, the beauty of the worship.
She certainly feels a part of that church, but in a different way than the local church that we go to here outside of Vancouver.
(08:02):
So it's both and.
It's like saying, I don't want to listen to a podcast, I'll have coffee with somebody.
It's not one or the other, it's both and.
When we are innovating, how do we ensure that the gospel remains central?
Because we can be very busy in creating new ways to reach out to people with the best of hearts, but how do we continue to maintain that connection to God and that connection to the gospel of Jesus Christ as we're going forward?
(08:31):
I think it's as simple as understanding every day that's your foundation.
If we take an exit ramp off that road that leaves the foundation of the church, and frankly, I think some of our political issues today are doing that, then we get into trouble.
But technology has really no consistent connection to leaving the foundation of the gospel.
(08:58):
That's totally at the will of the person using that technology.
Your point is so important, Rodney, that whatever we do, the plumb line of that mission, of that communication, has to be the inherent word of the gospel.
One of the things that you're very much involved in, of course, CEO of Worship Road Radio Foundation.
(09:21):
I'd love to hear a bit of what you're doing there.
Rodney, for me personally, Christian music has been really important in my walk.
It has been inspiring.
It has been discipling.
It has been encouraging in tough times.
It has been an element of celebrating the hope that we have in Christ.
(09:41):
All of those things.
And I know it isn't for everybody, but I know that it is for a lot of people.
I have a tendency to always consider what we're doing.
Can we do it better?
Can we build a better mousetrap?
And frankly, I've had a frustration that a lot of Christian music radio programming is complacent.
(10:06):
It is a bit stale.
And we're happy with the audience we have, yet there's so many people that would benefit from hearing Christian music, even unbelievers.
There's an organization in the States called National Public Radio, or NPR.
They recently came out with research showing that Christian music has mental health benefits, even for non-believers.
(10:31):
To me, it's incumbent on us to use that tool to its best potential.
And frankly, what we have now in just traditional Christian music radio is too many ads and too many paid sermons, too many fundraising share-a-thons, and it really fatigues the listeners.
(10:52):
If you go to Reddit and you just write in Christian radio, you will quickly see some of the common problems and barriers that our present model has.
And so, at Worship Road Radio, we have jumped out to find a new business model that allows for accessible music in a digital realm with studio quality.
(11:17):
You don't have to worry about if you get too far away from the tower that you can't hear it anymore, right?
You can hear it in Perth, as well as London, or right here in Vancouver, the very same quality.
And we also wanted to do this in a way that it was simply a pact with our listeners that when you come here, you're going to listen to music.
(11:38):
When you come here, you may come here because you have a need, an emotional need, a need for inspiration.
You're not going to be met with someone just asking for money or commercial about a tire shop.
You're going to hear music.
Now, to do that, we needed a different kind of business model.
We're a non-profit, and we've been doing this almost two years now, and I'm just so encouraged that it is a brand new way to get Christian message through music around the world.
(12:10):
So tell me, how do you fund a non-profit to be providing that quality of music to people around the world?
Here's where technology comes in.
Our overhead and our costs, being a digital station from the first day, using the different technologies that are now available that weren't available 24 months ago, our expenses are a small fraction of what a traditional Christian radio station or any radio station has been.
(12:42):
So the amounts of revenue that we need to generate is far less to earn the same kind of margins that allow us to be sustainable.
And so what we simply do is a model that allows a sponsor to sponsor an hour of music.
So at the top of every hour, Rodney, we might say, please support our sponsor Bleeding Daylight Podcast for the next hour.
(13:08):
They have allowed us to have uninterrupted music without ads or fundraising to support Bleeding Daylight Podcast, go to, you know, whatever your website is.
That is very unintrusive.
It still allows for relevant messages from ministry-minded people to talk to our listeners in a very unannoying fashion, if you will.
(13:33):
And so just that revenue stream alone with a little bit of donor help from those who really see our vision, that sustains our station in a way that not only do we sustain, but we continue to grow.
We just launched a magazine called Breakout Magazine.
It's an e-magazine.
It specifically features new and emerging Christian artists, something you can't really find anywhere else.
(14:01):
And so that revenue stream is allowing us to grow and really allowing us most importantly, Rodney, to serve our listeners.
I'm sure that even though you've only been going for a couple of years, you've heard some incredible testimonies of people that have been just so thankful that there is something different that is going on, that you're seeing ministry in a different way.
(14:24):
Can you tell me perhaps one or two stories of those who have really benefited from this new model of radio?
Great question.
So we're in Canada.
You probably know that Canada is a very large geographic country, but not necessarily with huge population throughout.
And so it's very difficult in a traditional business model to get music out with small little stations in these small towns.
(14:51):
It's economically not feasible.
To answer your question, we're introducing people to Christian music that have not even heard it before.
They don't even know what it is.
They're thinking it's going to be like a church hymn.
I got an email just last week from someone in Ontario, a province here in Canada.
(15:12):
And it's like, finally, finally, I have access to music I didn't even know existed.
I knew it was out there, but I'd never heard it.
Thank you so much.
I hope you're around next year because I listen to you all the time.
I don't know what was the driving force for him to listen to this music, but you know it was something spiritual.
(15:32):
It was an itch that the gospel message through this music is scratching.
We hear that a lot.
It's what makes it all worthwhile.
Oftentimes I imagine it's also a matter of not just that they're hearing something that is uplifting and pointing them to Jesus, but if they've moved away from some of the traditional stations they've listened to, they're not hearing some of those negative messages that can come from some secular music.
(16:00):
You know, it's so interesting, isn't it, that we all understand the power of marketing and the power of putting those words into our head for the benefit of sales or getting us to do something.
Yet the same thing happens in music.
If you're constantly listening to violent, aggressive, demeaning, vulgar music, there's a consequence to that.
(16:25):
I'm not saying that that music's all bad.
I'm not saying that you should never listen to anything but Christian music.
But you're absolutely right.
And I think that that's why the mental health benefits of Christian music are so apparent in this culture right now.
It's because it's wonderful to have hope.
It's wonderful to see a future that's inspiring.
(16:48):
You know, one of the things that really led me to this same vision, there's a common phrase in traditional Christian radio of playing music that's safe.
I don't like that.
I don't think you find the word safe in the Bible very much.
Now, I understand it.
I had children.
I know you don't want to have the radio on and introduce them to things that you didn't have any power over.
(17:14):
But I think we should have a higher standard.
We should be inspiring people.
We should be encouraging people.
We should be opening hearts in a way that hadn't been done before.
And for me, Rodney, I think music is one of the final frontiers of communication that haven't been politicized, that doesn't have baggage around it, but allows the Holy Spirit to really talk to your heart.
(17:40):
I'm a huge advocate for this, of course.
And I think that this is one thing to avoid some of those negative images and negative words that can come through otherwise.
Now, I know that this question might sort of start to give away your age, but tell me who were some of those initial Christian musicians that you started listening to that got you hooked on Christian music?
(18:05):
Oh my gosh, so years and years ago, not quite back to the dinosaurs, but I lived in Houston, Texas, just got married to my wife, heard the very first Christian station called KSBJ.
They played this song from a group called Second Chapter of Acts.
And I thought, oh my gosh, I love that song.
(18:27):
I mean, I'm listening to Ted Nugent and Journey.
I love Journey.
But it's like, here's something that I can really get into, and I didn't even know it existed.
And another ancillary to that, I had my boys.
We lived in Washington, D.C., and I take them to a D.C. talk concert when they're about eight years old.
(18:50):
We're in the stands there at the arena.
They start playing, and my oldest son Rainer, he looks up at me and he says, Dad, Dad, can we listen to this music?
Yes.
Yes, we can.
It was just another part of my journey that was like, you know, we are not doing ourselves a favor by not getting this out, by not using this valuable tool.
(19:18):
And I assume you know that Christian music as a quality has risen so much.
I was on the Gospel Music Association Board of Directors that does the Dove Awards for a couple of terms in Nashville.
It was fascinating to see and really understand how the quality of this music and industry and artists have risen to the very top, and I'm really proud of it.
(19:44):
Taking a different turn now, tell me about your work with Grand Canyon University and what that's all about.
So I was recruited to a small school in Phoenix, Arizona.
I'm a real believer in Christian education.
They recruited me because I knew the Christian space.
They knew the university space.
(20:04):
They saw an opportunity to fill a hole in that Christian education in the U.S. is so expensive.
If you're in Phoenix, Arizona, you have choices of going to Southern California Christian schools that cost between $45,000 and $65,000 a year just in tuition.
(20:29):
We're really creating a very narrow social class that has access to Christian education, and I don't believe in that.
The vision of the president that recruited me was we need to democratize Christian education and make it accessible, and the way we do that is that we grow the online access to Christian education, and we use that to help grow our local destination campus here in Phoenix.
(21:01):
And people say, well, why would you do online education?
If you look at the history of education itself, you have the ivory tower mentality.
If you're smart enough, we'll teach you.
If you're rich enough, we'll let you come to school.
But then you've got to do it on our campus, on our terms.
(21:22):
But we all understand that the culture has changed for two people working in families.
Costs are completely different than it used to be, and if we want it accessible, we need to make Christian education accessible on your terms when you have time, usually at night, on your day off, on the weekends.
And so I really understood the value of online education, especially after growing crosswalk.com.
(21:49):
We turned that into no students online to over 70,000 students online in seven years, and that allowed our campus to grow.
Today, it's about 27,000 students on campus.
Now, I wouldn't recommend that pace of growth.
The students, instead of calling it Grand Canyon University, they called it Grand Construction University because we always had brand new buildings.
(22:18):
We're just growing and growing and growing.
But, you know, it wasn't growing for money's sake.
It was growing because we hit a vein of demand.
I'm here in northern New Mexico, and there's no Christian school around.
I can't afford a California Christian school.
Our tuition was about 25% of the California schools.
(22:42):
We delivered a great educational product that was convenient for the very first time and affordable for the very first time.
If you talk about building the kingdom, we should have as few barriers to that as we can.
And yet Christian education had lots of barriers.
If you sat back and looked at it, a lot of barriers.
(23:03):
And so I was very fortunate as a senior vice president and on the executive team at GCU, I learned so much.
But moving it into the digital realm changed Christian education.
And today, like you said, Rodney, it is the largest Christian university in the world.
You keep saying about various things, what if we dreamed bigger and thinking of how do we do this differently so that it's more effective?
(23:28):
I'm sure that there are people listening at the moment, and they're doing their day-to-day work in the same way that they have.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
We need to find that way to make things work.
But for the person who's thinking, I really do need to start dreaming bigger.
I really do need to look at, is there a way to innovate this for the sake of the gospel in my day-to-day work, in my family life?
(23:52):
How do we start to get that mindset around change, not for change's sake, but for the sake of innovating and growing for the gospel?
I think it comes down to the word purpose.
What's our purpose?
I had a mentor years ago, or having breakfast one day, and I had this opportunity in front of me, and I talked to him.
(24:15):
I said, Jeff, I'm very comfortable with what I'm doing in my hometown, my kids in school.
What should I do?
What would you do?
And he said, Scott, let me ask you one question.
When is the last time the Lord's will was in your comfort zone?
And I immediately said, Rodney, I said, Jeff, I wish you never would have said that, because I'm never going to forget it.
(24:40):
And it really comes down to that for me.
Am I here to be comfortable?
No.
No, I don't think so.
Once you step out and really seek the obedience of following whatever God's put on your heart, it's not going to be easy, or it's not going to be comfortable.
But the reward, we all know this, the reward is something that man can't do, something we can't buy.
(25:06):
I have this motto that has driven me, because someone told it to me once, and I've held on to it, have a dream so big, so audacious, that without the direct intervention of the hand of God, it's inherently doomed to failure.
(25:26):
And what that says to me is, look, if you have a dream that you can do in your own talent, in your own resources, it's really not a dream.
It's just a goal.
But if you want to step out and say, Lord, I want to do what you're asking me to, but I know I can't do it on my own.
I know that you must intervene for this to happen.
(25:50):
It's scary as all get out, and I know a lot of your listeners do that and know that.
And I'm sure starting your podcast was like that.
But the reward is worth every bit of it, because these are eternal rewards that really mean something.
It's not a certificate on the wall.
It is the definition of real meaning.
(26:13):
It's a curse and a blessing at the same time.
So that's what drives me, and that's how I'd answer your question.
I know that there could be people listening thinking, well, it sounds like everything Scott touches turns to gold, but I'm sure that there have been setbacks along the way.
Can you tell me perhaps even about one of those setbacks where things didn't turn out as you had planned and the lessons that you were able to learn from that?
(26:38):
Yes.
Even the ones that work, we have many, many disappointments along the way.
We learn the simple things.
You've got to get back on your horse when you fall off the horse.
It's easy to feel like, Lord, the money is not catching up with my dream.
Do I just quit?
I don't over-spiritualize this, but that's when you get deeper into that dream.
(27:03):
That's when you get deeper into that dependence on the Lord.
Isn't that what the Lord wants us to be is dependent?
I don't want to tell you the name of the organization, but I was the CEO of one organization that I really felt like God opened the door to, but I soon learned that this organization, even though it had a Christian foundation when it was started, this organization turned away from God, and I was soon seen to be this person who threatened to re-Christianize the organization.
(27:43):
And it turned into a very negative and nasty cultural battle.
But on the other hand, it allowed me to say, listen, am I going to stand my ground or am I going to do what's comfortable and just be silent?
We won't know until we get to heaven what the seeds will germinate to that we planted, even in those tough days.
(28:12):
Even at Grand Canyon University, at Crosswalk, and of course here at Worship Road Radio, we run into those disappointments.
Those are small battles, but they're not the war.
We've got to be aware that God has different metrics for success than we do.
We often see things as it's gone smoothly or not, and oftentimes God is seeing success from a very different perspective, isn't he?
(28:37):
Oh, isn't that the truth?
It's so hard to keep that perspective, because everything around us tells us not to.
I mean, you have the same daily devotionals, and they help.
But for me, I need Christian music.
I need to be around the Word.
I don't want it, I need it.
Some would say, well, that's a crutch.
No, it's not.
If you understand God's economy, that's the fuel that we need to keep this race going.
(29:04):
Scott, if people are wanting to get in touch, find out a little bit more about Worship Radio, where is the best place for people to find you?
It's very easy.
Our website is worshiproad.com, and we have free apps that are the most effective way to get a hold of us.
Both Google and Apple, you just go to the store, put in Worship Road Radio, or if you have a smart speaker like Alexa, you just ask it to play Worship Road Radio.
(29:32):
We're available 24-7.
We're never going to ask you for money, and we're going to keep access to inspiration at your fingertips.
The links are in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net so that you can find that easily if you didn't get to write that down as Scott was mentioning it.
But I just want to say, Scott, thank you so much for your time today on Bleeding Daylight.
(29:56):
Thank you for the story that you're still writing.
It's been a pleasure to chat with you.
Rodney, this has been my pleasure.
I love your show, and thank you for inviting me.
Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight.
Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.
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