May 13, 2025 • 48 mins
Libraries have always been pillars of knowledge in our communities, but their role is evolving far beyond book repositories. As author Shamichael Hallman reveals, these vital public institutions now serve as rare neutral spaces where people from all backgrounds can gather, connect, and rebuild the civic muscles we've lost in our increasingly polarized society.
What makes libraries uniquely positioned for this work? First, they offer something increasingly rare—barrier-free indoor public spaces where anyone can enter regardless of income, education, or background. In an era of commercial third places that require purchases, libraries welcome everyone with no expectation beyond respectful coexistence. Second, libraries already function as spaces of sharing, from books to meeting rooms to specialized equipment. Finally, their commitment to neutrality and free access to diverse perspectives creates safe environments for exploring ideas without judgment.
Show Notes:
- Author Recommended Reading: The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek, The Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler
- 2023 Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation The U.S. Surgeon General’s Advisory on the Healing Effects of Social Connection and Community
- Living Room Conversations for ideas on community conversations with a guide for assistance
- Discoveries: the Library at the Mall
- To help support the show, pick up a copy of the book through our Amazon Affiliates page at https://amzn.to/43ZIJif or even better, get a copy through your local bookstore!
- To view the show transcripts, click on the episode at https://bookedonplanning.buzzsprout.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Rouse (00:00):
This episode is brought to you by Confluence.
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Their staff of 70 plus includes39 licensed landscape
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They assist clients on a widerange of public, educational,
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(00:41):
You're listening to the BookedOn Planning Podcast, a project
of the Nebraska chapter of theAmerican Planning Association.
In each episode we dive intohow cities function by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
(01:03):
Planning.
We're kicking off Meet Me inMay with Shamichael Hallman on
his book Meet Me at the Librarya place to foster social
connection and promote democracy.
Stay tuned in two weeks forMeet Me at the Shamichael.
even tied the two episodestogether with a case study of a
library and a mall serving todrive traffic to the shopping
center.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:22):
Yeah, that was actually such a perfect
connection moment.
I assume the majority of ourlisteners love the library
almost as much as we do, andthis was an excellent
conversation around the waysthat libraries are changing to
meet the needs of theircommunity.
If you're at all like I used tobe, which is concerned about
losing your quiet bookrepository, don't worry.
Books are still at the heart ofeverything that libraries are
(01:44):
doing.
Quiet book repository, don'tworry.
Stephanie Rouse (01:45):
Books are still at the heart of everything that
libraries are doing.
One key takeaway from theconversation was that librarians
, like planners, are constantlylooking for new ideas to
implement, shifting theirapproach based on the
communities they serve andfinding ways to innovate.
The library can be a keypartner and space for doing this
type of work, but it's oftenoverlooked in a lot of our
planning efforts today.
Jennifer Hiatt (02:04):
We touch on the fact that libraries are an
excellent place to redevelop thesoft skills around learning how
to communicate and debate ideaswith other people.
As planners, we have firsthandknowledge at public hearings and
community engagement sessionsabout how the breakdown of these
skills is negatively impactinghow we plan and engage with
those we most need to hear from,so it was refreshing to hear
(02:25):
how libraries are playing a roleto reteach those skills.
Stephanie Rouse (02:29):
And there were a number of really great
examples of unique programmingfrom this book and several that
we touched on in the episode.
One of the most interestingprograms that I thought we
discussed was the human library.
One library gathered a bunch ofindividuals with varied
backgrounds that could be, quoteunquote, checked out by
individuals to have aconversation with someone that
they wouldn't normally comeacross in their daily lives.
(02:51):
It's a way to really bridge thedivide and the safety of the
library.
Jennifer Hiatt (02:55):
Yeah, that was a really interesting example, and
we also discussed the ways thatpeople can help support their
local libraries.
So let's get into ourconversation with author
Shamichael Hallman on his bookMeet Me at the Library A Place
to Foster Social Connection andPromote Democracy.
Stephanie Rouse (03:12):
Well, Shamichael, thank you for
joining us on Booked on Planningto talk about your book.
Meet Me at the Library A Placeto Foster Social Connection and
Promote Democracy.
You have a background workingin libraries, so you're very
well versed in this.
But what elements orcharacteristics of libraries
make them suited to reach thesegoals?
Shamichael Hallman (03:30):
Well, first, thanks so much for having me.
And there are a number ofthings that come to mind when I
think about the role of thelibrary or the ability of the
library of bringing communitiestogether, connecting communities
together, bridging communities,and the first thing that comes
to mind really is the library asa place and the very low
barrier that exists within thelibrary.
(03:50):
So think about the library as aplace where really anybody can
show up.
It doesn't matter youreducation level, your
socioeconomic background.
The library is a place whereyou can just be, and there
aren't a lot of places left likethat.
Particularly, we think aboutpublic indoor places where
that's actually possible.
And so, at the sort of verybasic level, I think it is this
(04:12):
role of the library as a place.
But then you think about thesort of other element of the
library that libraries arealready set up to be this place
of sharing.
It's open to everybody.
There are a bunch of resourcesthat are there meeting spaces,
books and these sorts of thingsand so people are already coming
and using those things as apublic good.
And then I might say, lastly,is the relatively neutrality of
(04:35):
the library that the libraryreally is promoting free and
open access to a diversity ofperspectives.
So it's really a safe space forpeople to explore ideas without
judgment and to be able toengage in conversation,
hopefully also across differentviewpoints.
So when you look at some ofthose things the neutrality of
the space, the publicness of thespace it's really right for
(04:57):
this ability to connectcommunities in a very real and
authentic way.
Jennifer Hiatt (05:01):
Stephanie touched on this a little bit,
but can you share with us yourbackground and how you came into
this work, because I felt likeit was such an important part of
the story.
Shamichael Hallman (05:09):
Yes, so my background is not in public
libraries.
I don't have, like many people,I don't have the library of
science degree, which I think isactually pretty crucial for
folks to have.
My background is actually intechnology and ministry,
specifically before the librarywork, like, for instance, you
(05:45):
know, in the ministry,storytelling is very important.
You know that we're on stageeach and every Sunday trying to
convey a message of hope andstrength and encouragement,
resilience, and these thingstranslate very well when you're
out in the community and you'retalking and advocating on behalf
of the library.
Another thing that you know isalmost sort of paramount in the
ministry is that it's sort ofhow you view people.
(06:07):
Everyone, the part of thechurch or the part of the
ministry you recognize has somegift, some skill, some talent
that you know makes them very,you know, unique and of value to
the community, and this is soimportant in terms of like sort
of community engagement.
Right, and so you know, one ofthe things that I was able to do
I think maybe a little biteasier than some professionally
(06:29):
trained libraries was to getinto the community very quickly
and not only understand how wemight be able to serve them, but
to also understand how theycould be a part of the journey,
and I think it's one of thethings that made us very, very
successful.
Stephanie Rouse (06:43):
Jennifer and I, we obviously have a podcast on
books and we're lovers of booksand libraries and my husband
always teases me that anytime Icome home from the library he
asks if I was at my favoriteplace in the world.
So we've noticed some changingtrends in libraries as spaces
that they're not just thesequiet places where you go to
read alone, but they're actuallyevolving into more interactive
(07:06):
places to seek socialconnections.
Can you talk about some ofthese major changes and how
libraries are going about this?
Shamichael Hallman (07:13):
Sure, and I think it's important, as we have
this conversation, to recognizeand to acknowledge that public
libraries have always madepivots, that it's an institution
that is always evolving, eventhough our minds may sort of
immediately go to the books andthe quietness of the space.
When we look at the history oflibraries, we can see, for
(07:35):
instance, even in, say, 1905,you have the first bookmobile
that's actually being drawn by ahorse carriage.
You can bring that all the wayup to say, the early 80s and 90s
, where libraries are addinginternet and computers.
I mean, that wasn't always thecase giving people access to
internet.
And then you think about now,when some of the really cool
(07:56):
things that are happening inlibraries.
So, for instance, I'll give youa personal example in Memphis,
I worked for the Memphis PublicLibrary from 2017 until 2002.
And part of my work was to helpoversee the renovation and the
reimagining of the downtownbranch, and in that branch we've
added some really cool featuresthat are there now.
(08:17):
If you go visit that branch,first thing is there's a cafe
there.
I think it just kind of makessense.
You know, playing off of thebooks and playing off of sort of
your classic bookstore vibethat you might get now.
Having a cafe in the libraryactually makes a lot of sense,
and so if you walk into thatlibrary right now and go to the
cafe, you're going to see avariety of menu options priced
(08:38):
at all sorts of levels, so itensures that affordability for
people, regardless of theirincome level.
Also, in that library, on thevideo side video and photography
side we've got all sorts ofreally great equipment there.
We've got screen screens,cameras, anything that you need
to be able to do a video, make aTikTok video right.
A lot of people would use thatspace, a lot of people who would
(09:00):
come to the library, and we hada lot of other equipment that
was there as well.
For instance, we had heatpresses, things that would help
people make jewelry.
A lot of people would come inand actually make their jewelry
or make their T-shirt business,and then they would go into the
video space and actually take apicture, you know, so that they
could put on their website.
So that's something that Ithink is a growing trend, this
(09:21):
makerspace movement.
As I was writing the book, I wasvery interested in learning
about how libraries were addingsort of library of themes to
their space, and so I found allsorts of really great examples.
There's a library in Virginiawhere you can get fishing poles
and car diagnostic kits that youknow check out with your
library card.
I was just in Iowa a coupleweeks ago.
(09:44):
There's a library there.
I have a whole selection ofbaking pans right.
You can butt pan and all sortsof like kind of cake pans that
you could get with your librarycard.
It's like, wow, this is actuallypretty cool.
You can go in here and get thisthing and you kind of, as you
scan out and look at all theways, all the things that
libraries are doing, kind of inthat library thing space, you
(10:04):
find all sorts of things sewingmachines and sergers that you
can get with your library cardand that sort of thing is one of
the ways that you're seeinglibraries sort of step in, be a
part of this circular economy,right, and really sort of try to
meet needs.
Now, what that looks like, Ithink, from a design perspective
, is that you see libraries whoare thinking very intentionally
(10:26):
about.
You know, is there space in ourlibrary that's not used or
that's underutilized and youknow, could we activate that
space?
Or is there space that is beingused a lot in many different
ways.
How might we think about makingthis space more flexible so
that it could be one thingTuesday afternoon but then
something else Thursday morning,based on what the community
(10:47):
actually needs?
Jennifer Hiatt (10:48):
So when the University of Nebraska-Lincoln
was switching over their libraryor thinking about working on
their library so that it wasn'tjust a repository for books, I
was on the committee that waskind of working on that and I
have to admit, at first I waslike you can't take my books,
what are you talking about?
Because I did only think aboutmy library is like where I went
and got my books and I sat in aquiet space.
But now when you walk into LoveLibrary and see everything
(11:10):
that's going on there, it's justreally amazing.
So I'm glad that I was wrong inthis instance.
Shamichael Hallman (11:16):
Yeah, yeah, and you make.
That's actually a really goodpoint, jennifer.
And I want to share one thingthere.
And you know, when I firstbecause I didn't have that
library experience when I firstcame to the library, I didn't
know how to talk about it, right.
And so I said, well, hey, ifI'm going to be out in the
community making presentationsto the business owners and to
(11:37):
the community, like, I need tobe able to understand how to
talk about it.
So let me figure out howeverybody else is talking about
it.
And the thing that I washearing this would have been
late 17, early 18.
The thing that everybody wassaying at that moment was oh
well, the library is more than abook.
And it made a lot of sensebased off of what was happening
at my library.
So that's how I talked about it.
Everywhere I went, I was like,oh, the library is more than a
(11:58):
book.
We've got these recordingspaces and we've got a, we've
got a performing arts space,we've got a cafe, and it made a
lot of sense.
It actually got quite a fewpeople in the door.
But in the time that I havefinished the book, my idea about
that has changed a little bitand I now no longer say that the
library is more than books.
I now say that the library isbooks and more, because I think
(12:20):
in this moment it's veryimportant for us to recognize
the fundamental role of thelibrary in providing free and
open access to knowledge andinformation, and how important
that is right now for us to beable to engage with the
diversity of viewpoints aboutany topic.
Like we need that, and I thinkthe thing that I love about that
(12:42):
you can scan the shell, scanthe stack and actually find a
range of thoughts about thatparticular topic.
You know, whether it'ssomething that maybe you agree
with or not, that that range ofideas is there and that is
something that not only is therange of things there, but all
of those things are free right,and I think that's actually
something very important for usto think about, something for us
(13:03):
to appreciate about the publiclibrary.
Jennifer Hiatt (13:07):
I think that's such a great point and it kind
of comes back to a differentpoint that you start the book
with, which is the emphasis thatwe are lonely and divided now
and even have a SurgeonGeneral's advisory notice that,
in fact, americans are right.
And this has led to numerousproblems, but one of which is
(13:28):
the breaking down ofrelationships, which leads to
the mistrust which leads to uswanting to burn books ultimately
at the end of the day.
So how has this breakdownimpacted libraries?
Shamichael Hallman (13:39):
It's impacted libraries in a couple
ways.
The way that I'm most proudthat it has impacted libraries
is that you are seeing librariesshift how they create and
deploy and measure programmingright.
So, in light of a society thatis, or a community that is
isolated, that is divided, whatyou see many library staff doing
(14:00):
now, library professors do nowsay, okay, well, what are, what
is the range or the assortmentof programs and initiatives and
things that I can do that canactually bring people together
right?
And so I talk about a couple ofthese things in the book.
From a programming perspective,there's this idea of the human
library that I actually I sawthis at the Mesa County Library
(14:23):
System in Grand Junction andthis human library is such a
beautiful experience.
What the library did and it'sactually a very heavy list it
takes a lot of work.
What the library did was theycurated about 15 human books.
These were people who theirlives, for the most part, kind
of on the margin.
So you might have someone whowas a trans individual, someone
(14:45):
who was returning from thejustice system, you might have
had a former gang member, youmight have had a single parent,
and the library brings theseindividuals into the building as
a book, and then you as areader can check that person out
and sit down in the library ina safe sort of controlled
environment and ask questions,you know, and it's like this
(15:07):
beautiful moment where numberone this is, for some people, a
person who represents a livedexperience that you just
wouldn't interact with, youwould never see, you would never
be able to have a conversationwith somebody like that before,
right.
And so I think about that froma from a program perspective
that's library and saying, hey,we need to be able to create
(15:29):
moments where where we can seeeach other as humans, like we
can see the humanity in eachother, and so let's go after the
sort of programming that woulddo that.
And it's not just programming,it also then opens up in terms
of design, right.
So what you see from a designperspective is, you know,
architects and designers saying,particularly for new builds or
for renovations, this communityhas a story, it has a history,
it has a lived experience.
(15:50):
How might we embody thathistory and that culture?
Is it through art?
Is it through the placement ofthe building?
How do we both be?
A place that is both aneighborhood branch but also a
destination has a destinationsort of quality to it, knowing
that if we give it that level ofbeauty, we give it that
destination quality, not onlywill it attract the people in
(16:12):
the neighborhood, but peoplefrom other neighborhoods will
want to come and hang out here,and that gives us the
opportunity to mix, to have somesocial economic mixing right.
So you've got design, you'vegot programming.
Now I might say, lastly,libraries are thinking about
sort of how they approach theiroutreach and their marketing.
So another example that I talkabout is from the San Jose
Public Library, and they ranthis really amazing social media
(16:34):
campaign called Write toLibrary hashtag Write to Library
and what they were trying to dowith this campaign was to show
that, hey, this place is foreverybody, right?
Like regardless of where youlive, where you slept last night
, what your native language islike, you can come into the
library.
And that begins to really openup people who might have said,
(16:57):
oh, I don't think the library isfor me, I don't know if I feel
comfortable walking into thisplace, and so now they're
walking into this place, butyou've got, I think, a number of
levers that can be pulled, andso I would say that's what I'm
seeing in terms of the benefitof this sort of current moment.
I think the challenge is, ofcourse, as we become more
polarized, we become moreisolated.
(17:18):
It becomes difficult to talkabout certain things, right Like
we have forgotten how to relateto each other.
We have forgotten how to debate.
We have forgotten how to debate.
We have forgotten how to argue.
The issue is not that we're notarguing enough, it's that we're
not arguing smarter.
There's not a lot of activelistening that is involved
anymore.
It's my point, or your point,is sort of zero-sum thinking,
(17:42):
and so that can make havingcertain conversations in any
setting library or otherwise abit difficult and requires just
a level of intentionality andcare and thoughtfulness in how
you engage in some programs andsome activities.
Jennifer Hiatt (17:59):
And that sets us up perfectly because, building
on those thoughts, you talkabout the six pillars of social
infrastructure.
So can you explain what thoseare and tell us why they are so
important as we learn how toappropriately debate and
interact with each other?
Shamichael Hallman (18:13):
again, published by the Surgeon General
was something that I think wasso groundbreaking.
I refer back to this report.
I still do.
I think it's about 90 or sopages, but hundreds of
references that provide so muchmore information for us.
One of the things that I reallylove about that loneliness
(18:35):
report by the Surgeon General isit began to shift the
conversation about lonelinessfrom solely a personal issue to
more of a built environmentissue, so that we begin to see
that the way that ourcommunities are shaped you know
where the library is, where thepark is, where the public
transit is that these thingsalso play a huge role in how
(18:59):
connected people feel.
And towards the bottom of thatreport and for folks who haven't
read it, you know, I wouldencourage you to take a look at
that Within the bottom of thatreport, the Surgeon General
lists up the six pillars forsocial connection, and there are
three of them that reallydeeply hit the role of libraries
(19:19):
.
So the first pillar is tostrengthen social infrastructure
in local communities, and hereSenator Jenner was saying that,
as we just said, that we have todesign the built environment to
promote social connection.
We have to be very mindful ofwho gets a nice park.
Well, they should all be nice.
Who gets a nice library?
They should all be nice.
Where do the bus routes andthose sorts of things go?
(19:40):
And beyond, you know, havingthese places that are there the
park, the library, the communitycenter, the waterfront what are
the programs that actuallyreally lead toward having people
more connected?
And then, who are the peoplebehind these programs?
Right, because it's very easyto think about.
I mean, I feel like a lot ofthe conversation is about the
program.
(20:01):
Last week I was with theWashington Library Association
for their annual conference.
I had to close out thisconference and I left out
something to the librarians inthe room.
You know, one of the things Isort of joke right now is that
library patrons they borrowbooks, but library professionals
they borrow ideas, right.
So we're always sort of goingto conferences figuring out
(20:22):
what's the next program that wecan bring back to our community,
bring back to our librarythat's going to really do the
thing.
So we're always sort ofsearching for this sort of what
I call the silver bullet.
But what we're recognizing moreand more is that the silver
bullet really is a myth, right,that the program that will work
in one neighborhood might notwork in another neighborhood and
(20:48):
then, just because of where weare in the times, the program
that might have worked in oneneighborhood last year might not
have worked this year, and sothis idea of this sort of silver
bullet needs to be replacedwith the steady cultivator, and
that is the librarian, theperson on the ground, who is
always trying things, you know,who's experimenting with new
programs, who is trying to findnew partners, who is going into
neighborhoods that haven't beentapped before, who's looking at
the community from anasset-based perspective as
(21:09):
opposed to a deficit-basedperspective, and always just
trying to cultivate thecommunity.
And that is actually where thehuge potential is.
And so, as I think about socialinfrastructure, our minds, I
think, almost go to the building, the things that we build, but
it is very much the peoplebehind these programs that also
matter.
But let's think about thoseother pillars, of course.
(21:30):
The Surgeon General talkedabout the role of policy there,
right, the role of the healthsector and making sure that
health providers understandloneliness, how to assess it,
how to support it.
The sort of second of the threethings that I think are really,
really important right now isdigital environments, like
social media.
Right, we all had to sort ofmake a shift during the pandemic
to do online programming, andwhile I think we were able to
(21:53):
reach people that we'd neverreached before, part of reaching
people that we'd never reachedbefore is that you know you've
got a new group of people whoare online, who are sharing
space together, who sometimesare hiding behind an avatar.
You people who are online whoare sharing space together, who
sometimes are hiding behind anavatar, you know and saying
different things.
So you know how do we continueto get smarter about doing
hybrid programming?
And then I would say this lastpillar, number five, is just
(22:14):
really around research, aresearch agenda, around
loneliness and social connection.
That last pillar is aroundbuilding a culture of connection
, and this is, I think, the bigopportunity for libraries right
now, because, as we think aboutwhat does it mean to build a
culture of connection?
And this is, I think, the bigopportunity for libraries right
now, because, as we think aboutwhat does it mean to build a
culture of connection?
Where my mind immediately goesis that, as I said earlier, I
think people have forgotten howto be in relationship with other
people.
(22:34):
We have forgotten how to have alevel of empathy and tolerance
for people who think differentlythan us, who behave differently
than us.
And that requires a sort ofcuriosity, that requires a sort
of tell me about yourself, tellme about your upbringing, tell
me about the values that drive,not so that I can convert you to
my way of believing or my wayof understanding the world, but
(22:56):
just so that I can betterunderstand you.
Right, there's a piece in theadvisory that is what's called a
framework for belonging, andwhat these researchers were
trying to see is like okay, howdo we actually assess whether
the components for belonging arein place?
And one of those corecomponents is the skills or the
competencies to belong.
(23:16):
And essentially what they'resaying is that, hey, for us to
show up in public space, to bearound other people, it requires
a skill set.
And some of us like that skillset just is not because, you
know, COVID, generation orwhoever like, we don't
necessarily have that skill set.
So the ability to sort ofcultivate in individuals a level
of empathy and tolerance andunderstanding and appreciation
(23:37):
of culture is, I think, a greatopportunity for libraries right
now, and I see libraries who areleaning into that is, I think,
a great opportunity forlibraries right now, and I see
libraries who are leaning intothat.
Stephanie Rouse (23:48):
So civic infrastructure and you've
mentioned a few forms of civicinfrastructure in this
conversation so far is a way totry and help encourage
interaction and get peopleengaging with one another again.
What are some of the keyelements that make good civic
infrastructure and why is it socritical to focus on that in
communities?
Shamichael Hallman (24:02):
civic infrastructure and why is it so
critical to focus on that incommunities?
Yeah, you know, this idea, thisconcept of civic infrastructure
, really builds on the work ofwhere social infrastructure I
think leads.
So, within socialinfrastructure, we're really
looking at, you know, sort ofthe ways that people are
connected and how they feel to acommunity, are connected and
(24:22):
how they feel to a community andthat really gets at a number of
the sort of belongingness, thesort of belonging elements that
are out there.
But you know, as you all saidearlier Jennifer, you mentioned
this that we are a verypolarized society right now.
It is very hard to talk acrossdifference and so this concept
(24:57):
of civic infrastructure Iactually want to read the
definition for you is thecommunity-based people, places,
institutions, media and funding.
As we think about this idea ofcivic renewal and really make
sure that people are civicallyengaged, that they are
knowledgeable about theircommunities, that they are being
active in their community as acitizen, volunteering or just
(25:19):
seeing people pay for the trashand either picking it up or
calling the authorities andsaying, hey, the trash doesn't
make it out over here how do wereverse these declines in civic
engagement that we have beenseeing?
We've already talked about therole of people.
We've already talked about therole of the place.
One thing that we haven'ttalked about is funding, because
this work is a long game.
(25:41):
This is not just a thing thatcan be done and check it off.
This is really a long game work.
I think where I'm seeing a lotof really great work happening
right now is a communityfoundation.
You know people who are alreadyembedded in the communities,
who are asking themselves, likeyou know, what's the next thing
for us in terms of how we directour investments into this
community, and so being able totalk with community foundations,
(26:01):
get them to direct thosefunding into this community, and
so being able to talk withcommunity foundations, get them
to direct those funding intocivic-related, community-related
projects, has been somethingreally, really, really, really
great.
Stephanie Rouse (26:11):
And it makes sense that libraries would be a
good neutral ground to bringdiverse individuals together to
talk about diverse issues.
You mentioned the human libraryexample earlier and getting
people to talk with individualsthat they wouldn't interact with
normally, but libraries areusually city-run institutions.
Have you run into any librariesin your research that are
hesitant to do this type of workbecause of political pressure
(26:34):
or they fear there's going to besome sort of political blowback
for hosting these types ofcommunity dialogues?
Shamichael Hallman (26:40):
I would take it maybe one step further, in
that there are just somelibrarians who are just like
this is a lot for me to have todo, right, just for me to be
able to hold face for thesedifferent opinions.
Like that's a lot in and ofitself, and I'm not even sure if
that's something that I want todo.
And then, of course, yeah,certainly there are local
governments who are like hey, wegot to be careful here.
We don't want to bring anyunwarranted attention to
(27:02):
ourselves.
The great thing here is thatthere are a number of models for
us to lean on.
There are a number of greatorganizations that we can lean
on.
So a couple of really greatexamples right now that a number
of libraries are leaning into.
The first one is what we callthe Living Room Conversations.
I'm not sure if y'all haveheard of Living Room
Conversations or not.
They are really an amazinggroup.
(27:24):
The website is just thatlivingroomconversationsorg, and
on the website they actuallyhave a library of conversations
and conversation guides andthere is a vast amount of topics
that are on there.
There has to be a hundred ormore Everything on civic renewal
to climate change, toentertainment, to faith in
(27:46):
politics, to free speech andwhat I really love about the
work that Living RoomConversations has done is that
you know, for each of thesethere is a guide, and a lot of
that guide focuses on you knowhow do you actually have these
conversations and why is itimportant to have these
conversations.
I've had conversations withlocal leaders as well, and where
(28:06):
I always start is around thisidea of civic health.
I want to read this to youbecause this has become a really
core part of my work.
In 2020, the New HampshireCivic Index defined civic health
as this.
Civic health as this this isthe ways in which residents of
the community participate inactivities that strengthen
well-being, enhanceinterconnection, build trust,
(28:27):
help each other, talk aboutpublic issues and challenges,
volunteer in government andnonprofit organizations, stay
informed about their communitiesand participate directly in
crafting solutions to varioussocial and economic challenges.
And as I think about thatdefinition and I say, man, if
every one of my neighbors tickedthose boxes, man, I would have
a pretty good community, right?
(28:48):
If I can look at, if I can lookat, like all of my neighbors
and say, man, all these folks,they're engaged, they're voting,
they know how to connect withpeople that you know everybody
else in the community like that,like that makes for a strong
community, that makes for acommunity that you want to live
in, that you want to be a partof right, where businesses will
want to actually be.
And so our conversation withleaders I guess a backdrop of
(29:11):
like living in conversation tosay, hey, we like being amongst
each other and being with eachother.
It's like a muscle and we haveto be able to flex that muscle,
to strengthen that muscle rightand through facilitated dialogue
and setting very carefulguidelines that we can actually
get there.
So I'll give you one examplewithin living room conversation,
(29:31):
there's a rule within theguidebook of saying, okay, that
you can only speak from yourexperience.
You can't come in and say, ohwell, my neighbor, my best
friend, last week he told melike no, you can't only talk
from your experience, and onceyou have spoken, you cannot
speak again until everybody elsein the group has said a thing
(29:52):
right.
And so you can begin to sort ofsee how these sort of basic it
seems like sort of common sense,but it's not anymore these sort
of basic ground rules can beginto set the stage where even
very difficult topics you cantalk about.
I would say, lastly, what manylibraries are learning, though
and what I always point to isSalt Lake City Library.
They have this program calledlet's Be Neighbors, and what
(30:15):
they have found is that thesweet spot is actually talking
about local issues, because withlocal issues, you can actually
move from conversation to action.
If you can get people workingtogether on a thing, then that
actually is the sweet spot.
Jennifer Hiatt (30:28):
We talk a lot on Booked, on Planning, about the
importance of third places, butI have to admit, maybe it's
because I always just thought ofthe library as a place where I
go to read my books quietly.
I never really actually didthink about the library as a
third place, and obviously I waswrong about that.
Can you explain, actually didthink about the library as a
third place, and obviously I waswrong about that.
Can you explain to ourlisteners how the library can
actually be a universal thirdplace?
Shamichael Hallman (30:50):
Yeah.
So you know, when I think aboutthird places, particularly in
how that initial framework thatwas done around Odenberg, you
know as a place that is youdon't want to just open and
invite it, right.
Like you know as a place thatis not only just open and
inviting, right Like you don'thave to have an invitation, you
don't have to have anappointment, you can just kind
of show up At the library,absolutely, check that box, that
(31:11):
, as long as it's open hours,you can just come in, right, and
it's not like you got to have areservation or even when you
step in, like you've got to buya cup of coffee to feel like you
can sit down and use the Wi-Fi.
It's just open.
And then I would say the nextlevel is that when you walk into
that space that there arepeople who just are always there
.
Somebody knows your name.
(31:31):
What I love about walking intomy neighborhood library branch
is I know that if I go there ona certain day at a certain time,
there are going to be a coupleof people that are all.
John's always there, he's gothis paper, he's got a coffee,
he's just chilling out, and Ijust know that he's going to be
over there in the corner hangingout and I can say something to
him, then I can go to my cornerand read, and this is sort of.
(31:53):
I think the third thing is thisidea of being alone together.
It's this very unique qualitythat I think the library offers,
and so I think about thebarrier, I think about the fact
that you know there's going tobe somebody there maybe it's the
library staff, who's a nicefriendly face, and the other
people that are doing things,learning things, learning
something new and that, again,all of this is sort of free to
(32:16):
do.
I think it really becomes amodel.
Third place, because thequestion that I would ask is
what other indoor public spaceis that actually possible right
now?
You know you maybe you lift upa community center, but we know
what?
Where are the other placeswhere you could actually do
something like?
Stephanie Rouse (32:34):
Yeah, they really don't exist.
You might be able to go to apark, but still there's all
sorts of issues too.
Shamichael Hallman (32:39):
It's just loitering in parks, so Sure,
sure, yeah, absolutely all sortsof issues too with just
loitering in parks.
Stephanie Rouse (32:44):
So Sure, sure, yeah, absolutely so.
How do you draw in diversegroups of people to the library
that aren't your typical librarypatrons?
Like my husband doesn't go tothe library, that's my thing,
but I think all the newprogramming and different
activities that are taking placeto try and engage people and
bridge civic divides is reallyimportant to get a diverse group
into the library.
So how do you go aboutapproaching this work?
Shamichael Hallman (33:06):
One of the things that I did in Memphis was
to begin to ask myself and tohave the staff to ask ourselves,
well, who's not coming throughthe doors?
Because that's a fundamentalquestion, right, like you know,
as we look at, do sort of an eyetest, you know, over the course
of a week or over the course ofa given month, what groups of
people do we not see?
(33:26):
And one of the groups that wedid not see were young, creative
entrepreneurs, and we knew theywere there because it's a
heartbeat of men.
You know, all these people thatyou know are highly creative,
who are high casting and makingjewelry and soap and payroll
startups, right, and we knewnone of those people were using
(33:49):
at least our brands, theyweren't coming in.
And so we went out and began toengage those folks and began to
, you know, figure out like, ok,hey, what would it take, what
would it take to actually getyou here, what's happening in
the course of your day, rightnow, that the library might be
able to make of ease for you?
What we heard from those folkswas that number one they valued
(34:11):
space.
They valued spaces where theycould rehearse, where they could
perform, where they could buildand create.
That was something that wasimportant to them.
Other people said, hey, I'mjust starting out and there's
this software that I use Maybeit's, you know, photoshop or
some creative thing that, like,I mean, I don't have a current
version of this, I can't affordit right now.
I know how to use it very well,but it would be great if I had,
(34:32):
if I actually had, an up todate version of this thing and I
had a team that would actuallywant it.
You know, that had theprocessing power to run it, and
so the library made theinvestment in that.
That's one way.
In my current role at the UrbanLibraries Council, we are an
action tank of about 190 urbanpublic libraries in the US and
Canada.
One of my current projectsright now is the Business Value
(34:55):
Calculator.
This is a tool that we've beenworking on for a couple of years
now to help libraries calculatethe economic impact to
entrepreneurs and businessowners, and we do that across
four areas.
We do that across programmingright.
So right now, libraries oftendo a lot of programs to help
business owners know how tolaunch a business, whether
that's a license or getting yourpackages in order or finding
(35:16):
your first customer.
Sometimes it's even some of thenon-technical stuff, like how
to have a creative mindset, howto bounce back from failure, how
to bounce back from your firstnote.
The libraries do a lot ofprogramming.
Sometimes it's the librarydoing it.
Sometimes the library isbringing in some other
organizations, bringing in SCORE.
They're bringing in someentrepreneur, like this is how I
built this and this is how youcan do it too.
(35:37):
The second area is around theactual resource.
So you think about the books,the e-books, all the books that
are.
You know how to launch yourfirst business, how to find your
first customer, how to do this,how to do that.
And then the research databases.
Right, I mean, there areliterally databases that your
library card will get you accessto, that will cost you hundreds
of dollars on your own.
Databases that will help youunderstand where you should put
(36:00):
a brick and mortar.
Databases that will help youunderstand how you price your
product based on what otherstuff is happening, right.
So we talk about that.
We talk about physical space,lots of working home people,
lots of remote workers who mightwant to go to a co-working
space and maybe can't afford it.
Hey, the library's got spacefor you, right?
And so we've been working withlibrarians right now to not only
help them get that number andthat number sometimes is as high
(36:23):
as $9, $10 million, you know,just in serving entrepreneurs
but also how to take thatinformation and go out and talk
to other entrepreneurs and say,hey, did you know that's a space
at the library where you cansave that 50 bucks that you were
going to be putting at theco-working space.
Now we're not down to thecoverage space, but we're saying
like, hey, you're in a veryearly stage in your business.
You could go over here for free, save that 60 bucks to invest
(36:45):
it back in your business andthen, once you get to a better
place, the coverage spot is overthere for you.
We can save you some of thesethings.
We've got resources for you.
And so I think it is alwaysunderstanding what does the
community need and then, whatlibrary resources do we have
that can meet that need?
Whether you're caring for anaging parent, you're caring for
a child who has some learning,you know difficulties.
(37:07):
You have a hobby that you wantto dive into and figuring out,
okay, what type of new mathlibrary resources for that?
Jennifer Hiatt (37:14):
And you provide a lot of examples in the book
about programs from librariesacross the country and you've
already talked about quite a fewof them here.
But my favorite was actuallythe cooking related Heritage
Month theme, where thelibrarians would pick an ethnic
cookbook and invite chefs whowould actually come into the
library with like a littlemobile kitchen and cook that
type of cuisine for the libraryas a cooking class, and then
(37:37):
everyone got to enjoy.
So what were some of yourfavorite programs from the other
libraries that you talked about?
That?
Shamichael Hallman (37:43):
type of cuisine for the library as a
cooking class, and then everyonegot to enjoy.
So what were some of yourfavorite programs from the other
libraries that you talked about?
I absolutely love thatCambridge Cooks program at the
Cambridge Public Library.
It's incredible.
Other programs that reallycaught my eye you know a lot of
folks are doing this Innovatorin Residence program right now,
where the library is saying, youknow, hey, we know that there
are some very talented folks inthe community, you know, whether
they be entrepreneurs orpodcasters or startup folks, and
(38:07):
these folks have skills thatour library staff don't have.
And so, rather than trying toget our library staff to be
knowledgeable in that area,let's just take a pool of
funding here and bring thatperson into the library and let
them teach the class, let themfacilitate the thing, and I saw
this happening at a number oflibraries and I just love that
idea, that concept there.
(38:28):
I saw it play out in a numberof libraries.
I just thought it was reallyreally cool for folks to do that
.
Other programs, because I thinkyou know I am always thinking
about for the entrepreneurialaspect there was a food truck
program in Los Angeles wherethey were helping folks you know
who sort of kind of almost kindof in an informal economy type
(38:49):
way, you know, operating foodtrucks and really bringing them
in to say, hey, let's help youactually get your license, let's
help you make sure that yourfood handling is up to par.
You've got your certification,you know, and I thought that was
just really really, reallygreat.
The Skokie Public Libraryoutside of Chicago had a civic
lab where it was just reallycool.
(39:10):
You know how they were thinkingabout civics and how they
educated the community aboutparticular topics.
It was just a really, reallywonderful way of stepping into
the library as civic space.
And then the storytimes you knowthe caregiver generally, mother
, mother, child story time.
(39:32):
I went to a library in Marylandwhere the library was actually
co-located inside a mall,shopping mall, and, believe it
or not, the mall actually saidthat it was the library that was
drawing lots of people.
Let me go check this out.
So I get to this story time inthis library and there are I'm
like there had to be 60 momsthat were there and they've got
(39:55):
the kids and the kids are sortof doing their thing, you know,
painting and doing some fingerpainting and stuff, but then the
moms are over here, you knowjust hanging out and getting up
with each other and you knowexchanging tips and stuff, and I
was like wow, that's actuallyreally really cool that this
program that was actually forthe kid the moms are probably
getting as big of a benefit asthe kids are.
And this is happening in alibrary and it's happening in a
(40:18):
mall and the mall is saying it'sbecause of the library that
people are actually showing upand the library is actually
driving traffic to the rest ofthe mall.
So it was a really, really goodexample.
Stephanie Rouse (40:27):
So I feel like you've given at least 12 or 15
different examples of programsin this episode already, and in
the book you note that when youwere with Memphis that you had
piloted 60 different programs,Not all of them were actually
implemented.
Shamichael Hallman (40:47):
How did you even get to 60 programs and
manage something that large?
Yeah, and some of this was just, you know, it was very you know
this, you know, I think leaninginto the human centered design
methodology and really justprototyping a number of things.
Right, like you know, let'sactually see what works and we
just had a very basic frameworkof things that we thought we
might be able to achieve thatpeople would learn something new
(41:08):
, that they would be exposed tolibrary resource, they would
have fun, that they would meetsomebody that they wouldn't have
opportunity to meet otherwise,right.
And then we just said, okay,well, let's start playing with
these combinations and let'screate a couple of prototypes of
people in the city.
Let's look at a single parent.
Let's look at an aspiringentrepreneur.
Let's look at an establishedentrepreneur.
(41:29):
Let's look at a retiree,someone who's maybe getting
ready to retire and who has abunch of knowledge and
information.
They may want to do somethingto give back to folks, but they
also may be oh hey, I'm retirednow, I'm getting ready to travel
, I'm going to travel the world.
Let's figure out how we do thatand for the most part it was
relatively, I won't say easy,but once we recognized all of
(41:49):
the things that the library had,like we recognized for each of
those people, for each of thosestory types, that we had books
that were there, that we hadmagazines that were there, that
we had resources that werealready in place, and so
sometimes it was just okay.
Well, how do we leverage thesethings to create something very
simple.
You know a lunchtime programwhere we just say, hey, here are
the five books that would teachyou about, you know, how to
(42:10):
start traveling to foreigncountries and where you might
want to go first and things thatyou might want to consider
right, and so a lot of it wasleveraging existing library
programming to make that happen.
Jennifer Hiatt (42:21):
Going back to the library that was in a mall.
We are having a theme here onBooked, on Planning.
It's Meet Me in May, so we'vegot yours.
Meet Me in the Library.
And our next book is Meet Me bythe Fountain A History of Malls
and under no circumstances inthat book have I seen anyone say
we should bring libraries intoour malls.
But maybe we should reconsiderthat.
Shamichael Hallman (42:41):
Yeah, yeah, you should definitely look at it
.
So it is.
The library system is the AnnArnville County Public Library
and the particular library iscalled the Discovery, the
library at the mall in Annapolis, maryland.
It is a wonderful case study ofhow you can embed and I think
actually the story, if Iremember correctly, was that
(43:03):
this was a space in the mallthat there was an anchor store
that had just left and there wasa lot of space there and the
library director at the timejust had the foresight to be
able to say, hey, we canactivate that space.
I'm very confident we canactivate that space and they've
been there for years now and Iwent there a couple of times and
every time I was there theplace was just, yeah, it was
(43:24):
just packed.
You know people were using itall sorts of ways.
Jennifer Hiatt (43:28):
That's fantastic as a little bit of a call to
action to our listeners.
Obviously, Stephanie and I arelovers of libraries.
We support our libraries everyway we can, but you give some
really great advice to people inthe book on how they can engage
with their libraries andsupport their libraries.
So what are two or three of themost impactful ways people can
help?
Shamichael Hallman (43:48):
Number one just show up.
I encourage everyone to givetheir local library a second
look.
Maybe you haven't been in thelibrary in years.
Maybe you've never stepped footin a public library.
I encourage people just to takea look.
There's something for everybodyin the library.
Maybe you're not able to getthere physically and maybe it's
just you're going to thelibrary's website and you know
(44:11):
almost every library website.
This is not necessarily thecase for some small rural
libraries, but for mostlibraries that will have a
website.
On that website there'sgenerally a research column, a
research drop down, and underthat you will find all sorts of
things.
You will find legal information.
If you've got something comingup from a legal perspective and
(44:32):
you're trying to figure out,what do I do about this?
There's generally someinformation there.
There's generally someinformation about careers not
only job searches, but just moresort of general things of how
you might research, how youmight upskill yourself.
There's generally somethingthere around genealogy, and so
if you wanted to research familyhistory and dig into that
(44:52):
before you go buy somesubscription, I would say start
at the library, right.
And so I would say first thingis just give the library a
second look, Give the library'swebsite a second look, you might
discover that something you'repaying for right now, something
you're thinking about paying forright now, the library already
has.
Second thing I would say is torecognize the value of the
(45:13):
library in your community and tofind ways to communicate that.
I just truly believe right nowthat, even if you don't actively
use your public library, youmay say, hey, I don't have time
or it's not for me the very factthat a library is in your
community, your community isbetter off.
The cohesion of that community,the quality of life in that
(45:33):
community is better because alibrary is there.
That library was not there totake the library away.
You would notice that, and so Ireally encourage people to
understand the value oflibraries, to talk about
libraries to their friends, totheir neighbors, and maybe even,
if you've got time, to joinsome volunteer opportunity at
the library.
Jennifer Hiatt (45:52):
Always our last question on Bookdown Planning
what books would you recommendour readers check out?
Shamichael Hallman (45:57):
Ooh, oh goodness.
Jennifer Hiatt (46:00):
It's always the hardest question.
Shamichael Hallman (46:03):
It's indeed indeed the hardest question.
So I am reading, sort ofrereading, a book right now and
I think this for any folks whoare business owners or stepping
into business.
It is a book by Simon Sinek theInfinite Game.
It is a really, really Sinekthe Infinite Game.
It is a really, reallywonderful book on just how we
can think differently.
He gives throughout the book,he gives these case studies of
(46:26):
leaders who had more of a finiteapproach to how they managed
and how they led businesses andthe effect that that had on not
only the staff, the humanresources, but also what that
did to the business in the shortterm as opposed to the
long-term thinking.
And so, you know, for folks whoare entrepreneurs, who are
business owners, who areexecutives, I think it's a
really, really wonderful book.
(46:47):
Beyond that, I would say I amalso rereading and it feels like
it is so islandly right now butOctavia Butler's the Parable of
the Thor.
It is the dystopian fictionbook that was written at least
she wrote this book in the 80s,but as you read it now, it feels
like somehow she was able topeep into 2025.
(47:08):
She's covered some really,really amazing things.
So those are the two thingsthat I'm sort of those are the
two books I'm sort of making myway through writing.
Jennifer Hiatt (47:17):
I always love it when we get a fiction
recommendation.
Stephanie Rouse (47:22):
I think we made it two seasons before someone
finally gave us a fictionrecommendation but, we've had a
few more this year, so good.
Well, Shamichael, thank you somuch for joining us on the
podcast to talk about your bookMeet Me at the Library, a place
to foster social connection andpromote democracy.
Thanks so much for having meyour book.
Meet Me at the Library, a Placeto Foster Social Connection and
Promote Democracy.
Shamichael Hallman (47:40):
Thanks so much for having me.
Jennifer Hiatt (47:42):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation with
Shamichael Hallman Hallman onhis book Meet Me at the Library
A Place to Foster SocialConnection and Promote Democracy
.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at Island
Press, or click the link in theshow notes to take you directly
to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts and please rate, reviewand share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
(48:04):
Booked, on Planning.
Thank you.
This episode is brought to you by Confluence.
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landscape architects, urbandesigners and planners.
Their staff of 70 plus includes39 licensed landscape
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(00:41):
You're listening to the BookedOn Planning Podcast, a project
of the Nebraska chapter of theAmerican Planning Association.
In each episode we dive intohow cities function by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
(01:03):
Planning.
We're kicking off Meet Me inMay with Shamichael Hallman on
his book Meet Me at the Librarya place to foster social
connection and promote democracy.
Stay tuned in two weeks forMeet Me at the Shamichael.
even tied the two episodestogether with a case study of a
library and a mall serving todrive traffic to the shopping
center.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:22):
Yeah, that was actually such a perfect
connection moment.
I assume the majority of ourlisteners love the library
almost as much as we do, andthis was an excellent
conversation around the waysthat libraries are changing to
meet the needs of theircommunity.
If you're at all like I used tobe, which is concerned about
losing your quiet bookrepository, don't worry.
Books are still at the heart ofeverything that libraries are
(01:44):
doing.
Quiet book repository, don'tworry.
Stephanie Rouse (01:45):
Books are still at the heart of everything that
libraries are doing.
One key takeaway from theconversation was that librarians
, like planners, are constantlylooking for new ideas to
implement, shifting theirapproach based on the
communities they serve andfinding ways to innovate.
The library can be a keypartner and space for doing this
type of work, but it's oftenoverlooked in a lot of our
planning efforts today.
Jennifer Hiatt (02:04):
We touch on the fact that libraries are an
excellent place to redevelop thesoft skills around learning how
to communicate and debate ideaswith other people.
As planners, we have firsthandknowledge at public hearings and
community engagement sessionsabout how the breakdown of these
skills is negatively impactinghow we plan and engage with
those we most need to hear from,so it was refreshing to hear
(02:25):
how libraries are playing a roleto reteach those skills.
Stephanie Rouse (02:29):
And there were a number of really great
examples of unique programmingfrom this book and several that
we touched on in the episode.
One of the most interestingprograms that I thought we
discussed was the human library.
One library gathered a bunch ofindividuals with varied
backgrounds that could be, quoteunquote, checked out by
individuals to have aconversation with someone that
they wouldn't normally comeacross in their daily lives.
(02:51):
It's a way to really bridge thedivide and the safety of the
library.
Jennifer Hiatt (02:55):
Yeah, that was a really interesting example, and
we also discussed the ways thatpeople can help support their
local libraries.
So let's get into ourconversation with author
Shamichael Hallman on his bookMeet Me at the Library A Place
to Foster Social Connection andPromote Democracy.
Stephanie Rouse (03:12):
Well, Shamichael, thank you for
joining us on Booked on Planningto talk about your book.
Meet Me at the Library A Placeto Foster Social Connection and
Promote Democracy.
You have a background workingin libraries, so you're very
well versed in this.
But what elements orcharacteristics of libraries
make them suited to reach thesegoals?
Shamichael Hallman (03:30):
Well, first, thanks so much for having me.
And there are a number ofthings that come to mind when I
think about the role of thelibrary or the ability of the
library of bringing communitiestogether, connecting communities
together, bridging communities,and the first thing that comes
to mind really is the library asa place and the very low
barrier that exists within thelibrary.
(03:50):
So think about the library as aplace where really anybody can
show up.
It doesn't matter youreducation level, your
socioeconomic background.
The library is a place whereyou can just be, and there
aren't a lot of places left likethat.
Particularly, we think aboutpublic indoor places where
that's actually possible.
And so, at the sort of verybasic level, I think it is this
(04:12):
role of the library as a place.
But then you think about thesort of other element of the
library that libraries arealready set up to be this place
of sharing.
It's open to everybody.
There are a bunch of resourcesthat are there meeting spaces,
books and these sorts of thingsand so people are already coming
and using those things as apublic good.
And then I might say, lastly,is the relatively neutrality of
(04:35):
the library that the libraryreally is promoting free and
open access to a diversity ofperspectives.
So it's really a safe space forpeople to explore ideas without
judgment and to be able toengage in conversation,
hopefully also across differentviewpoints.
So when you look at some ofthose things the neutrality of
the space, the publicness of thespace it's really right for
(04:57):
this ability to connectcommunities in a very real and
authentic way.
Jennifer Hiatt (05:01):
Stephanie touched on this a little bit,
but can you share with us yourbackground and how you came into
this work, because I felt likeit was such an important part of
the story.
Shamichael Hallman (05:09):
Yes, so my background is not in public
libraries.
I don't have, like many people,I don't have the library of
science degree, which I think isactually pretty crucial for
folks to have.
My background is actually intechnology and ministry,
specifically before the librarywork, like, for instance, you
(05:45):
know, in the ministry,storytelling is very important.
You know that we're on stageeach and every Sunday trying to
convey a message of hope andstrength and encouragement,
resilience, and these thingstranslate very well when you're
out in the community and you'retalking and advocating on behalf
of the library.
Another thing that you know isalmost sort of paramount in the
ministry is that it's sort ofhow you view people.
(06:07):
Everyone, the part of thechurch or the part of the
ministry you recognize has somegift, some skill, some talent
that you know makes them very,you know, unique and of value to
the community, and this is soimportant in terms of like sort
of community engagement.
Right, and so you know, one ofthe things that I was able to do
I think maybe a little biteasier than some professionally
(06:29):
trained libraries was to getinto the community very quickly
and not only understand how wemight be able to serve them, but
to also understand how theycould be a part of the journey,
and I think it's one of thethings that made us very, very
successful.
Stephanie Rouse (06:43):
Jennifer and I, we obviously have a podcast on
books and we're lovers of booksand libraries and my husband
always teases me that anytime Icome home from the library he
asks if I was at my favoriteplace in the world.
So we've noticed some changingtrends in libraries as spaces
that they're not just thesequiet places where you go to
read alone, but they're actuallyevolving into more interactive
(07:06):
places to seek socialconnections.
Can you talk about some ofthese major changes and how
libraries are going about this?
Shamichael Hallman (07:13):
Sure, and I think it's important, as we have
this conversation, to recognizeand to acknowledge that public
libraries have always madepivots, that it's an institution
that is always evolving, eventhough our minds may sort of
immediately go to the books andthe quietness of the space.
When we look at the history oflibraries, we can see, for
(07:35):
instance, even in, say, 1905,you have the first bookmobile
that's actually being drawn by ahorse carriage.
You can bring that all the wayup to say, the early 80s and 90s
, where libraries are addinginternet and computers.
I mean, that wasn't always thecase giving people access to
internet.
And then you think about now,when some of the really cool
(07:56):
things that are happening inlibraries.
So, for instance, I'll give youa personal example in Memphis,
I worked for the Memphis PublicLibrary from 2017 until 2002.
And part of my work was to helpoversee the renovation and the
reimagining of the downtownbranch, and in that branch we've
added some really cool featuresthat are there now.
(08:17):
If you go visit that branch,first thing is there's a cafe
there.
I think it just kind of makessense.
You know, playing off of thebooks and playing off of sort of
your classic bookstore vibethat you might get now.
Having a cafe in the libraryactually makes a lot of sense,
and so if you walk into thatlibrary right now and go to the
cafe, you're going to see avariety of menu options priced
(08:38):
at all sorts of levels, so itensures that affordability for
people, regardless of theirincome level.
Also, in that library, on thevideo side video and photography
side we've got all sorts ofreally great equipment there.
We've got screen screens,cameras, anything that you need
to be able to do a video, make aTikTok video right.
A lot of people would use thatspace, a lot of people who would
(09:00):
come to the library, and we hada lot of other equipment that
was there as well.
For instance, we had heatpresses, things that would help
people make jewelry.
A lot of people would come inand actually make their jewelry
or make their T-shirt business,and then they would go into the
video space and actually take apicture, you know, so that they
could put on their website.
So that's something that Ithink is a growing trend, this
(09:21):
makerspace movement.
As I was writing the book, I wasvery interested in learning
about how libraries were addingsort of library of themes to
their space, and so I found allsorts of really great examples.
There's a library in Virginiawhere you can get fishing poles
and car diagnostic kits that youknow check out with your
library card.
I was just in Iowa a coupleweeks ago.
(09:44):
There's a library there.
I have a whole selection ofbaking pans right.
You can butt pan and all sortsof like kind of cake pans that
you could get with your librarycard.
It's like, wow, this is actuallypretty cool.
You can go in here and get thisthing and you kind of, as you
scan out and look at all theways, all the things that
libraries are doing, kind of inthat library thing space, you
(10:04):
find all sorts of things sewingmachines and sergers that you
can get with your library cardand that sort of thing is one of
the ways that you're seeinglibraries sort of step in, be a
part of this circular economy,right, and really sort of try to
meet needs.
Now, what that looks like, Ithink, from a design perspective
, is that you see libraries whoare thinking very intentionally
(10:26):
about.
You know, is there space in ourlibrary that's not used or
that's underutilized and youknow, could we activate that
space?
Or is there space that is beingused a lot in many different
ways.
How might we think about makingthis space more flexible so
that it could be one thingTuesday afternoon but then
something else Thursday morning,based on what the community
(10:47):
actually needs?
Jennifer Hiatt (10:48):
So when the University of Nebraska-Lincoln
was switching over their libraryor thinking about working on
their library so that it wasn'tjust a repository for books, I
was on the committee that waskind of working on that and I
have to admit, at first I waslike you can't take my books,
what are you talking about?
Because I did only think aboutmy library is like where I went
and got my books and I sat in aquiet space.
But now when you walk into LoveLibrary and see everything
(11:10):
that's going on there, it's justreally amazing.
So I'm glad that I was wrong inthis instance.
Shamichael Hallman (11:16):
Yeah, yeah, and you make.
That's actually a really goodpoint, jennifer.
And I want to share one thingthere.
And you know, when I firstbecause I didn't have that
library experience when I firstcame to the library, I didn't
know how to talk about it, right.
And so I said, well, hey, ifI'm going to be out in the
community making presentationsto the business owners and to
(11:37):
the community, like, I need tobe able to understand how to
talk about it.
So let me figure out howeverybody else is talking about
it.
And the thing that I washearing this would have been
late 17, early 18.
The thing that everybody wassaying at that moment was oh
well, the library is more than abook.
And it made a lot of sensebased off of what was happening
at my library.
So that's how I talked about it.
Everywhere I went, I was like,oh, the library is more than a
(11:58):
book.
We've got these recordingspaces and we've got a, we've
got a performing arts space,we've got a cafe, and it made a
lot of sense.
It actually got quite a fewpeople in the door.
But in the time that I havefinished the book, my idea about
that has changed a little bitand I now no longer say that the
library is more than books.
I now say that the library isbooks and more, because I think
(12:20):
in this moment it's veryimportant for us to recognize
the fundamental role of thelibrary in providing free and
open access to knowledge andinformation, and how important
that is right now for us to beable to engage with the
diversity of viewpoints aboutany topic.
Like we need that, and I thinkthe thing that I love about that
(12:42):
you can scan the shell, scanthe stack and actually find a
range of thoughts about thatparticular topic.
You know, whether it'ssomething that maybe you agree
with or not, that that range ofideas is there and that is
something that not only is therange of things there, but all
of those things are free right,and I think that's actually
something very important for usto think about, something for us
(13:03):
to appreciate about the publiclibrary.
Jennifer Hiatt (13:07):
I think that's such a great point and it kind
of comes back to a differentpoint that you start the book
with, which is the emphasis thatwe are lonely and divided now
and even have a SurgeonGeneral's advisory notice that,
in fact, americans are right.
And this has led to numerousproblems, but one of which is
(13:28):
the breaking down ofrelationships, which leads to
the mistrust which leads to uswanting to burn books ultimately
at the end of the day.
So how has this breakdownimpacted libraries?
Shamichael Hallman (13:39):
It's impacted libraries in a couple
ways.
The way that I'm most proudthat it has impacted libraries
is that you are seeing librariesshift how they create and
deploy and measure programmingright.
So, in light of a society thatis, or a community that is
isolated, that is divided, whatyou see many library staff doing
(14:00):
now, library professors do nowsay, okay, well, what are, what
is the range or the assortmentof programs and initiatives and
things that I can do that canactually bring people together
right?
And so I talk about a couple ofthese things in the book.
From a programming perspective,there's this idea of the human
library that I actually I sawthis at the Mesa County Library
(14:23):
System in Grand Junction andthis human library is such a
beautiful experience.
What the library did and it'sactually a very heavy list it
takes a lot of work.
What the library did was theycurated about 15 human books.
These were people who theirlives, for the most part, kind
of on the margin.
So you might have someone whowas a trans individual, someone
(14:45):
who was returning from thejustice system, you might have
had a former gang member, youmight have had a single parent,
and the library brings theseindividuals into the building as
a book, and then you as areader can check that person out
and sit down in the library ina safe sort of controlled
environment and ask questions,you know, and it's like this
(15:07):
beautiful moment where numberone this is, for some people, a
person who represents a livedexperience that you just
wouldn't interact with, youwould never see, you would never
be able to have a conversationwith somebody like that before,
right.
And so I think about that froma from a program perspective
that's library and saying, hey,we need to be able to create
(15:29):
moments where where we can seeeach other as humans, like we
can see the humanity in eachother, and so let's go after the
sort of programming that woulddo that.
And it's not just programming,it also then opens up in terms
of design, right.
So what you see from a designperspective is, you know,
architects and designers saying,particularly for new builds or
for renovations, this communityhas a story, it has a history,
it has a lived experience.
(15:50):
How might we embody thathistory and that culture?
Is it through art?
Is it through the placement ofthe building?
How do we both be?
A place that is both aneighborhood branch but also a
destination has a destinationsort of quality to it, knowing
that if we give it that level ofbeauty, we give it that
destination quality, not onlywill it attract the people in
(16:12):
the neighborhood, but peoplefrom other neighborhoods will
want to come and hang out here,and that gives us the
opportunity to mix, to have somesocial economic mixing right.
So you've got design, you'vegot programming.
Now I might say, lastly,libraries are thinking about
sort of how they approach theiroutreach and their marketing.
So another example that I talkabout is from the San Jose
Public Library, and they ranthis really amazing social media
(16:34):
campaign called Write toLibrary hashtag Write to Library
and what they were trying to dowith this campaign was to show
that, hey, this place is foreverybody, right?
Like regardless of where youlive, where you slept last night
, what your native language islike, you can come into the
library.
And that begins to really openup people who might have said,
(16:57):
oh, I don't think the library isfor me, I don't know if I feel
comfortable walking into thisplace, and so now they're
walking into this place, butyou've got, I think, a number of
levers that can be pulled, andso I would say that's what I'm
seeing in terms of the benefitof this sort of current moment.
I think the challenge is, ofcourse, as we become more
polarized, we become moreisolated.
(17:18):
It becomes difficult to talkabout certain things, right Like
we have forgotten how to relateto each other.
We have forgotten how to debate.
We have forgotten how to debate.
We have forgotten how to argue.
The issue is not that we're notarguing enough, it's that we're
not arguing smarter.
There's not a lot of activelistening that is involved
anymore.
It's my point, or your point,is sort of zero-sum thinking,
(17:42):
and so that can make havingcertain conversations in any
setting library or otherwise abit difficult and requires just
a level of intentionality andcare and thoughtfulness in how
you engage in some programs andsome activities.
Jennifer Hiatt (17:59):
And that sets us up perfectly because, building
on those thoughts, you talkabout the six pillars of social
infrastructure.
So can you explain what thoseare and tell us why they are so
important as we learn how toappropriately debate and
interact with each other?
Shamichael Hallman (18:13):
again, published by the Surgeon General
was something that I think wasso groundbreaking.
I refer back to this report.
I still do.
I think it's about 90 or sopages, but hundreds of
references that provide so muchmore information for us.
One of the things that I reallylove about that loneliness
(18:35):
report by the Surgeon General isit began to shift the
conversation about lonelinessfrom solely a personal issue to
more of a built environmentissue, so that we begin to see
that the way that ourcommunities are shaped you know
where the library is, where thepark is, where the public
transit is that these thingsalso play a huge role in how
(18:59):
connected people feel.
And towards the bottom of thatreport and for folks who haven't
read it, you know, I wouldencourage you to take a look at
that Within the bottom of thatreport, the Surgeon General
lists up the six pillars forsocial connection, and there are
three of them that reallydeeply hit the role of libraries
(19:19):
.
So the first pillar is tostrengthen social infrastructure
in local communities, and hereSenator Jenner was saying that,
as we just said, that we have todesign the built environment to
promote social connection.
We have to be very mindful ofwho gets a nice park.
Well, they should all be nice.
Who gets a nice library?
They should all be nice.
Where do the bus routes andthose sorts of things go?
(19:40):
And beyond, you know, havingthese places that are there the
park, the library, the communitycenter, the waterfront what are
the programs that actuallyreally lead toward having people
more connected?
And then, who are the peoplebehind these programs?
Right, because it's very easyto think about.
I mean, I feel like a lot ofthe conversation is about the
program.
(20:01):
Last week I was with theWashington Library Association
for their annual conference.
I had to close out thisconference and I left out
something to the librarians inthe room.
You know, one of the things Isort of joke right now is that
library patrons they borrowbooks, but library professionals
they borrow ideas, right.
So we're always sort of goingto conferences figuring out
(20:22):
what's the next program that wecan bring back to our community,
bring back to our librarythat's going to really do the
thing.
So we're always sort ofsearching for this sort of what
I call the silver bullet.
But what we're recognizing moreand more is that the silver
bullet really is a myth, right,that the program that will work
in one neighborhood might notwork in another neighborhood and
(20:48):
then, just because of where weare in the times, the program
that might have worked in oneneighborhood last year might not
have worked this year, and sothis idea of this sort of silver
bullet needs to be replacedwith the steady cultivator, and
that is the librarian, theperson on the ground, who is
always trying things, you know,who's experimenting with new
programs, who is trying to findnew partners, who is going into
neighborhoods that haven't beentapped before, who's looking at
the community from anasset-based perspective as
(21:09):
opposed to a deficit-basedperspective, and always just
trying to cultivate thecommunity.
And that is actually where thehuge potential is.
And so, as I think about socialinfrastructure, our minds, I
think, almost go to the building, the things that we build, but
it is very much the peoplebehind these programs that also
matter.
But let's think about thoseother pillars, of course.
(21:30):
The Surgeon General talkedabout the role of policy there,
right, the role of the healthsector and making sure that
health providers understandloneliness, how to assess it,
how to support it.
The sort of second of the threethings that I think are really,
really important right now isdigital environments, like
social media.
Right, we all had to sort ofmake a shift during the pandemic
to do online programming, andwhile I think we were able to
(21:53):
reach people that we'd neverreached before, part of reaching
people that we'd never reachedbefore is that you know you've
got a new group of people whoare online, who are sharing
space together, who sometimesare hiding behind an avatar.
You people who are online whoare sharing space together, who
sometimes are hiding behind anavatar, you know and saying
different things.
So you know how do we continueto get smarter about doing
hybrid programming?
And then I would say this lastpillar, number five, is just
(22:14):
really around research, aresearch agenda, around
loneliness and social connection.
That last pillar is aroundbuilding a culture of connection
, and this is, I think, the bigopportunity for libraries right
now, because, as we think aboutwhat does it mean to build a
culture of connection?
And this is, I think, the bigopportunity for libraries right
now, because, as we think aboutwhat does it mean to build a
culture of connection?
Where my mind immediately goesis that, as I said earlier, I
think people have forgotten howto be in relationship with other
people.
(22:34):
We have forgotten how to have alevel of empathy and tolerance
for people who think differentlythan us, who behave differently
than us.
And that requires a sort ofcuriosity, that requires a sort
of tell me about yourself, tellme about your upbringing, tell
me about the values that drive,not so that I can convert you to
my way of believing or my wayof understanding the world, but
(22:56):
just so that I can betterunderstand you.
Right, there's a piece in theadvisory that is what's called a
framework for belonging, andwhat these researchers were
trying to see is like okay, howdo we actually assess whether
the components for belonging arein place?
And one of those corecomponents is the skills or the
competencies to belong.
(23:16):
And essentially what they'resaying is that, hey, for us to
show up in public space, to bearound other people, it requires
a skill set.
And some of us like that skillset just is not because, you
know, COVID, generation orwhoever like, we don't
necessarily have that skill set.
So the ability to sort ofcultivate in individuals a level
of empathy and tolerance andunderstanding and appreciation
(23:37):
of culture is, I think, a greatopportunity for libraries right
now, and I see libraries who areleaning into that is, I think,
a great opportunity forlibraries right now, and I see
libraries who are leaning intothat.
Stephanie Rouse (23:48):
So civic infrastructure and you've
mentioned a few forms of civicinfrastructure in this
conversation so far is a way totry and help encourage
interaction and get peopleengaging with one another again.
What are some of the keyelements that make good civic
infrastructure and why is it socritical to focus on that in
communities?
Shamichael Hallman (24:02):
civic infrastructure and why is it so
critical to focus on that incommunities?
Yeah, you know, this idea, thisconcept of civic infrastructure
, really builds on the work ofwhere social infrastructure I
think leads.
So, within socialinfrastructure, we're really
looking at, you know, sort ofthe ways that people are
connected and how they feel to acommunity, are connected and
(24:22):
how they feel to a community andthat really gets at a number of
the sort of belongingness, thesort of belonging elements that
are out there.
But you know, as you all saidearlier Jennifer, you mentioned
this that we are a verypolarized society right now.
It is very hard to talk acrossdifference and so this concept
(24:57):
of civic infrastructure Iactually want to read the
definition for you is thecommunity-based people, places,
institutions, media and funding.
As we think about this idea ofcivic renewal and really make
sure that people are civicallyengaged, that they are
knowledgeable about theircommunities, that they are being
active in their community as acitizen, volunteering or just
(25:19):
seeing people pay for the trashand either picking it up or
calling the authorities andsaying, hey, the trash doesn't
make it out over here how do wereverse these declines in civic
engagement that we have beenseeing?
We've already talked about therole of people.
We've already talked about therole of the place.
One thing that we haven'ttalked about is funding, because
this work is a long game.
(25:41):
This is not just a thing thatcan be done and check it off.
This is really a long game work.
I think where I'm seeing a lotof really great work happening
right now is a communityfoundation.
You know people who are alreadyembedded in the communities,
who are asking themselves, likeyou know, what's the next thing
for us in terms of how we directour investments into this
community, and so being able totalk with community foundations,
(26:01):
get them to direct thosefunding into this community, and
so being able to talk withcommunity foundations, get them
to direct those funding intocivic-related, community-related
projects, has been somethingreally, really, really, really
great.
Stephanie Rouse (26:11):
And it makes sense that libraries would be a
good neutral ground to bringdiverse individuals together to
talk about diverse issues.
You mentioned the human libraryexample earlier and getting
people to talk with individualsthat they wouldn't interact with
normally, but libraries areusually city-run institutions.
Have you run into any librariesin your research that are
hesitant to do this type of workbecause of political pressure
(26:34):
or they fear there's going to besome sort of political blowback
for hosting these types ofcommunity dialogues?
Shamichael Hallman (26:40):
I would take it maybe one step further, in
that there are just somelibrarians who are just like
this is a lot for me to have todo, right, just for me to be
able to hold face for thesedifferent opinions.
Like that's a lot in and ofitself, and I'm not even sure if
that's something that I want todo.
And then, of course, yeah,certainly there are local
governments who are like hey, wegot to be careful here.
We don't want to bring anyunwarranted attention to
(27:02):
ourselves.
The great thing here is thatthere are a number of models for
us to lean on.
There are a number of greatorganizations that we can lean
on.
So a couple of really greatexamples right now that a number
of libraries are leaning into.
The first one is what we callthe Living Room Conversations.
I'm not sure if y'all haveheard of Living Room
Conversations or not.
They are really an amazinggroup.
(27:24):
The website is just thatlivingroomconversationsorg, and
on the website they actuallyhave a library of conversations
and conversation guides andthere is a vast amount of topics
that are on there.
There has to be a hundred ormore Everything on civic renewal
to climate change, toentertainment, to faith in
(27:46):
politics, to free speech andwhat I really love about the
work that Living RoomConversations has done is that
you know, for each of thesethere is a guide, and a lot of
that guide focuses on you knowhow do you actually have these
conversations and why is itimportant to have these
conversations.
I've had conversations withlocal leaders as well, and where
(28:06):
I always start is around thisidea of civic health.
I want to read this to youbecause this has become a really
core part of my work.
In 2020, the New HampshireCivic Index defined civic health
as this.
Civic health as this this isthe ways in which residents of
the community participate inactivities that strengthen
well-being, enhanceinterconnection, build trust,
(28:27):
help each other, talk aboutpublic issues and challenges,
volunteer in government andnonprofit organizations, stay
informed about their communitiesand participate directly in
crafting solutions to varioussocial and economic challenges.
And as I think about thatdefinition and I say, man, if
every one of my neighbors tickedthose boxes, man, I would have
a pretty good community, right?
(28:48):
If I can look at, if I can lookat, like all of my neighbors
and say, man, all these folks,they're engaged, they're voting,
they know how to connect withpeople that you know everybody
else in the community like that,like that makes for a strong
community, that makes for acommunity that you want to live
in, that you want to be a partof right, where businesses will
want to actually be.
And so our conversation withleaders I guess a backdrop of
(29:11):
like living in conversation tosay, hey, we like being amongst
each other and being with eachother.
It's like a muscle and we haveto be able to flex that muscle,
to strengthen that muscle rightand through facilitated dialogue
and setting very carefulguidelines that we can actually
get there.
So I'll give you one examplewithin living room conversation,
(29:31):
there's a rule within theguidebook of saying, okay, that
you can only speak from yourexperience.
You can't come in and say, ohwell, my neighbor, my best
friend, last week he told melike no, you can't only talk
from your experience, and onceyou have spoken, you cannot
speak again until everybody elsein the group has said a thing
(29:52):
right.
And so you can begin to sort ofsee how these sort of basic it
seems like sort of common sense,but it's not anymore these sort
of basic ground rules can beginto set the stage where even
very difficult topics you cantalk about.
I would say, lastly, what manylibraries are learning, though
and what I always point to isSalt Lake City Library.
They have this program calledlet's Be Neighbors, and what
(30:15):
they have found is that thesweet spot is actually talking
about local issues, because withlocal issues, you can actually
move from conversation to action.
If you can get people workingtogether on a thing, then that
actually is the sweet spot.
Jennifer Hiatt (30:28):
We talk a lot on Booked, on Planning, about the
importance of third places, butI have to admit, maybe it's
because I always just thought ofthe library as a place where I
go to read my books quietly.
I never really actually didthink about the library as a
third place, and obviously I waswrong about that.
Can you explain, actually didthink about the library as a
third place, and obviously I waswrong about that.
Can you explain to ourlisteners how the library can
actually be a universal thirdplace?
Shamichael Hallman (30:50):
Yeah.
So you know, when I think aboutthird places, particularly in
how that initial framework thatwas done around Odenberg, you
know as a place that is youdon't want to just open and
invite it, right.
Like you know as a place thatis not only just open and
inviting, right Like you don'thave to have an invitation, you
don't have to have anappointment, you can just kind
of show up At the library,absolutely, check that box, that
(31:11):
, as long as it's open hours,you can just come in, right, and
it's not like you got to have areservation or even when you
step in, like you've got to buya cup of coffee to feel like you
can sit down and use the Wi-Fi.
It's just open.
And then I would say the nextlevel is that when you walk into
that space that there arepeople who just are always there
.
Somebody knows your name.
(31:31):
What I love about walking intomy neighborhood library branch
is I know that if I go there ona certain day at a certain time,
there are going to be a coupleof people that are all.
John's always there, he's gothis paper, he's got a coffee,
he's just chilling out, and Ijust know that he's going to be
over there in the corner hangingout and I can say something to
him, then I can go to my cornerand read, and this is sort of.
(31:53):
I think the third thing is thisidea of being alone together.
It's this very unique qualitythat I think the library offers,
and so I think about thebarrier, I think about the fact
that you know there's going tobe somebody there maybe it's the
library staff, who's a nicefriendly face, and the other
people that are doing things,learning things, learning
something new and that, again,all of this is sort of free to
(32:16):
do.
I think it really becomes amodel.
Third place, because thequestion that I would ask is
what other indoor public spaceis that actually possible right
now?
You know you maybe you lift upa community center, but we know
what?
Where are the other placeswhere you could actually do
something like?
Stephanie Rouse (32:34):
Yeah, they really don't exist.
You might be able to go to apark, but still there's all
sorts of issues too.
Shamichael Hallman (32:39):
It's just loitering in parks, so Sure,
sure, yeah, absolutely all sortsof issues too with just
loitering in parks.
Stephanie Rouse (32:44):
So Sure, sure, yeah, absolutely so.
How do you draw in diversegroups of people to the library
that aren't your typical librarypatrons?
Like my husband doesn't go tothe library, that's my thing,
but I think all the newprogramming and different
activities that are taking placeto try and engage people and
bridge civic divides is reallyimportant to get a diverse group
into the library.
So how do you go aboutapproaching this work?
Shamichael Hallman (33:06):
One of the things that I did in Memphis was
to begin to ask myself and tohave the staff to ask ourselves,
well, who's not coming throughthe doors?
Because that's a fundamentalquestion, right, like you know,
as we look at, do sort of an eyetest, you know, over the course
of a week or over the course ofa given month, what groups of
people do we not see?
(33:26):
And one of the groups that wedid not see were young, creative
entrepreneurs, and we knew theywere there because it's a
heartbeat of men.
You know, all these people thatyou know are highly creative,
who are high casting and makingjewelry and soap and payroll
startups, right, and we knewnone of those people were using
(33:49):
at least our brands, theyweren't coming in.
And so we went out and began toengage those folks and began to
, you know, figure out like, ok,hey, what would it take, what
would it take to actually getyou here, what's happening in
the course of your day, rightnow, that the library might be
able to make of ease for you?
What we heard from those folkswas that number one they valued
(34:11):
space.
They valued spaces where theycould rehearse, where they could
perform, where they could buildand create.
That was something that wasimportant to them.
Other people said, hey, I'mjust starting out and there's
this software that I use Maybeit's, you know, photoshop or
some creative thing that, like,I mean, I don't have a current
version of this, I can't affordit right now.
I know how to use it very well,but it would be great if I had,
(34:32):
if I actually had, an up todate version of this thing and I
had a team that would actuallywant it.
You know, that had theprocessing power to run it, and
so the library made theinvestment in that.
That's one way.
In my current role at the UrbanLibraries Council, we are an
action tank of about 190 urbanpublic libraries in the US and
Canada.
One of my current projectsright now is the Business Value
(34:55):
Calculator.
This is a tool that we've beenworking on for a couple of years
now to help libraries calculatethe economic impact to
entrepreneurs and businessowners, and we do that across
four areas.
We do that across programmingright.
So right now, libraries oftendo a lot of programs to help
business owners know how tolaunch a business, whether
that's a license or getting yourpackages in order or finding
(35:16):
your first customer.
Sometimes it's even some of thenon-technical stuff, like how
to have a creative mindset, howto bounce back from failure, how
to bounce back from your firstnote.
The libraries do a lot ofprogramming.
Sometimes it's the librarydoing it.
Sometimes the library isbringing in some other
organizations, bringing in SCORE.
They're bringing in someentrepreneur, like this is how I
built this and this is how youcan do it too.
(35:37):
The second area is around theactual resource.
So you think about the books,the e-books, all the books that
are.
You know how to launch yourfirst business, how to find your
first customer, how to do this,how to do that.
And then the research databases.
Right, I mean, there areliterally databases that your
library card will get you accessto, that will cost you hundreds
of dollars on your own.
Databases that will help youunderstand where you should put
(36:00):
a brick and mortar.
Databases that will help youunderstand how you price your
product based on what otherstuff is happening, right.
So we talk about that.
We talk about physical space,lots of working home people,
lots of remote workers who mightwant to go to a co-working
space and maybe can't afford it.
Hey, the library's got spacefor you, right?
And so we've been working withlibrarians right now to not only
help them get that number andthat number sometimes is as high
(36:23):
as $9, $10 million, you know,just in serving entrepreneurs
but also how to take thatinformation and go out and talk
to other entrepreneurs and say,hey, did you know that's a space
at the library where you cansave that 50 bucks that you were
going to be putting at theco-working space.
Now we're not down to thecoverage space, but we're saying
like, hey, you're in a veryearly stage in your business.
You could go over here for free, save that 60 bucks to invest
(36:45):
it back in your business andthen, once you get to a better
place, the coverage spot is overthere for you.
We can save you some of thesethings.
We've got resources for you.
And so I think it is alwaysunderstanding what does the
community need and then, whatlibrary resources do we have
that can meet that need?
Whether you're caring for anaging parent, you're caring for
a child who has some learning,you know difficulties.
(37:07):
You have a hobby that you wantto dive into and figuring out,
okay, what type of new mathlibrary resources for that?
Jennifer Hiatt (37:14):
And you provide a lot of examples in the book
about programs from librariesacross the country and you've
already talked about quite a fewof them here.
But my favorite was actuallythe cooking related Heritage
Month theme, where thelibrarians would pick an ethnic
cookbook and invite chefs whowould actually come into the
library with like a littlemobile kitchen and cook that
type of cuisine for the libraryas a cooking class, and then
(37:37):
everyone got to enjoy.
So what were some of yourfavorite programs from the other
libraries that you talked about?
That?
Shamichael Hallman (37:43):
type of cuisine for the library as a
cooking class, and then everyonegot to enjoy.
So what were some of yourfavorite programs from the other
libraries that you talked about?
I absolutely love thatCambridge Cooks program at the
Cambridge Public Library.
It's incredible.
Other programs that reallycaught my eye you know a lot of
folks are doing this Innovatorin Residence program right now,
where the library is saying, youknow, hey, we know that there
are some very talented folks inthe community, you know, whether
they be entrepreneurs orpodcasters or startup folks, and
(38:07):
these folks have skills thatour library staff don't have.
And so, rather than trying toget our library staff to be
knowledgeable in that area,let's just take a pool of
funding here and bring thatperson into the library and let
them teach the class, let themfacilitate the thing, and I saw
this happening at a number oflibraries and I just love that
idea, that concept there.
(38:28):
I saw it play out in a numberof libraries.
I just thought it was reallyreally cool for folks to do that
.
Other programs, because I thinkyou know I am always thinking
about for the entrepreneurialaspect there was a food truck
program in Los Angeles wherethey were helping folks you know
who sort of kind of almost kindof in an informal economy type
(38:49):
way, you know, operating foodtrucks and really bringing them
in to say, hey, let's help youactually get your license, let's
help you make sure that yourfood handling is up to par.
You've got your certification,you know, and I thought that was
just really really, reallygreat.
The Skokie Public Libraryoutside of Chicago had a civic
lab where it was just reallycool.
(39:10):
You know how they were thinkingabout civics and how they
educated the community aboutparticular topics.
It was just a really, reallywonderful way of stepping into
the library as civic space.
And then the storytimes you knowthe caregiver generally, mother
, mother, child story time.
(39:32):
I went to a library in Marylandwhere the library was actually
co-located inside a mall,shopping mall, and, believe it
or not, the mall actually saidthat it was the library that was
drawing lots of people.
Let me go check this out.
So I get to this story time inthis library and there are I'm
like there had to be 60 momsthat were there and they've got
(39:55):
the kids and the kids are sortof doing their thing, you know,
painting and doing some fingerpainting and stuff, but then the
moms are over here, you knowjust hanging out and getting up
with each other and you knowexchanging tips and stuff, and I
was like wow, that's actuallyreally really cool that this
program that was actually forthe kid the moms are probably
getting as big of a benefit asthe kids are.
And this is happening in alibrary and it's happening in a
(40:18):
mall and the mall is saying it'sbecause of the library that
people are actually showing upand the library is actually
driving traffic to the rest ofthe mall.
So it was a really, really goodexample.
Stephanie Rouse (40:27):
So I feel like you've given at least 12 or 15
different examples of programsin this episode already, and in
the book you note that when youwere with Memphis that you had
piloted 60 different programs,Not all of them were actually
implemented.
Shamichael Hallman (40:47):
How did you even get to 60 programs and
manage something that large?
Yeah, and some of this was just, you know, it was very you know
this, you know, I think leaninginto the human centered design
methodology and really justprototyping a number of things.
Right, like you know, let'sactually see what works and we
just had a very basic frameworkof things that we thought we
might be able to achieve thatpeople would learn something new
(41:08):
, that they would be exposed tolibrary resource, they would
have fun, that they would meetsomebody that they wouldn't have
opportunity to meet otherwise,right.
And then we just said, okay,well, let's start playing with
these combinations and let'screate a couple of prototypes of
people in the city.
Let's look at a single parent.
Let's look at an aspiringentrepreneur.
Let's look at an establishedentrepreneur.
(41:29):
Let's look at a retiree,someone who's maybe getting
ready to retire and who has abunch of knowledge and
information.
They may want to do somethingto give back to folks, but they
also may be oh hey, I'm retirednow, I'm getting ready to travel
, I'm going to travel the world.
Let's figure out how we do thatand for the most part it was
relatively, I won't say easy,but once we recognized all of
(41:49):
the things that the library had,like we recognized for each of
those people, for each of thosestory types, that we had books
that were there, that we hadmagazines that were there, that
we had resources that werealready in place, and so
sometimes it was just okay.
Well, how do we leverage thesethings to create something very
simple.
You know a lunchtime programwhere we just say, hey, here are
the five books that would teachyou about, you know, how to
(42:10):
start traveling to foreigncountries and where you might
want to go first and things thatyou might want to consider
right, and so a lot of it wasleveraging existing library
programming to make that happen.
Jennifer Hiatt (42:21):
Going back to the library that was in a mall.
We are having a theme here onBooked, on Planning.
It's Meet Me in May, so we'vegot yours.
Meet Me in the Library.
And our next book is Meet Me bythe Fountain A History of Malls
and under no circumstances inthat book have I seen anyone say
we should bring libraries intoour malls.
But maybe we should reconsiderthat.
Shamichael Hallman (42:41):
Yeah, yeah, you should definitely look at it
.
So it is.
The library system is the AnnArnville County Public Library
and the particular library iscalled the Discovery, the
library at the mall in Annapolis, maryland.
It is a wonderful case study ofhow you can embed and I think
actually the story, if Iremember correctly, was that
(43:03):
this was a space in the mallthat there was an anchor store
that had just left and there wasa lot of space there and the
library director at the timejust had the foresight to be
able to say, hey, we canactivate that space.
I'm very confident we canactivate that space and they've
been there for years now and Iwent there a couple of times and
every time I was there theplace was just, yeah, it was
(43:24):
just packed.
You know people were using itall sorts of ways.
Jennifer Hiatt (43:28):
That's fantastic as a little bit of a call to
action to our listeners.
Obviously, Stephanie and I arelovers of libraries.
We support our libraries everyway we can, but you give some
really great advice to people inthe book on how they can engage
with their libraries andsupport their libraries.
So what are two or three of themost impactful ways people can
help?
Shamichael Hallman (43:48):
Number one just show up.
I encourage everyone to givetheir local library a second
look.
Maybe you haven't been in thelibrary in years.
Maybe you've never stepped footin a public library.
I encourage people just to takea look.
There's something for everybodyin the library.
Maybe you're not able to getthere physically and maybe it's
just you're going to thelibrary's website and you know
(44:11):
almost every library website.
This is not necessarily thecase for some small rural
libraries, but for mostlibraries that will have a
website.
On that website there'sgenerally a research column, a
research drop down, and underthat you will find all sorts of
things.
You will find legal information.
If you've got something comingup from a legal perspective and
(44:32):
you're trying to figure out,what do I do about this?
There's generally someinformation there.
There's generally someinformation about careers not
only job searches, but just moresort of general things of how
you might research, how youmight upskill yourself.
There's generally somethingthere around genealogy, and so
if you wanted to research familyhistory and dig into that
(44:52):
before you go buy somesubscription, I would say start
at the library, right.
And so I would say first thingis just give the library a
second look, Give the library'swebsite a second look, you might
discover that something you'repaying for right now, something
you're thinking about paying forright now, the library already
has.
Second thing I would say is torecognize the value of the
(45:13):
library in your community and tofind ways to communicate that.
I just truly believe right nowthat, even if you don't actively
use your public library, youmay say, hey, I don't have time
or it's not for me the very factthat a library is in your
community, your community isbetter off.
The cohesion of that community,the quality of life in that
(45:33):
community is better because alibrary is there.
That library was not there totake the library away.
You would notice that, and so Ireally encourage people to
understand the value oflibraries, to talk about
libraries to their friends, totheir neighbors, and maybe even,
if you've got time, to joinsome volunteer opportunity at
the library.
Jennifer Hiatt (45:52):
Always our last question on Bookdown Planning
what books would you recommendour readers check out?
Shamichael Hallman (45:57):
Ooh, oh goodness.
Jennifer Hiatt (46:00):
It's always the hardest question.
Shamichael Hallman (46:03):
It's indeed indeed the hardest question.
So I am reading, sort ofrereading, a book right now and
I think this for any folks whoare business owners or stepping
into business.
It is a book by Simon Sinek theInfinite Game.
It is a really, really Sinekthe Infinite Game.
It is a really, reallywonderful book on just how we
can think differently.
He gives throughout the book,he gives these case studies of
(46:26):
leaders who had more of a finiteapproach to how they managed
and how they led businesses andthe effect that that had on not
only the staff, the humanresources, but also what that
did to the business in the shortterm as opposed to the
long-term thinking.
And so, you know, for folks whoare entrepreneurs, who are
business owners, who areexecutives, I think it's a
really, really wonderful book.
(46:47):
Beyond that, I would say I amalso rereading and it feels like
it is so islandly right now butOctavia Butler's the Parable of
the Thor.
It is the dystopian fictionbook that was written at least
she wrote this book in the 80s,but as you read it now, it feels
like somehow she was able topeep into 2025.
(47:08):
She's covered some really,really amazing things.
So those are the two thingsthat I'm sort of those are the
two books I'm sort of making myway through writing.
Jennifer Hiatt (47:17):
I always love it when we get a fiction
recommendation.
Stephanie Rouse (47:22):
I think we made it two seasons before someone
finally gave us a fictionrecommendation but, we've had a
few more this year, so good.
Well, Shamichael, thank you somuch for joining us on the
podcast to talk about your bookMeet Me at the Library, a place
to foster social connection andpromote democracy.
Thanks so much for having meyour book.
Meet Me at the Library, a Placeto Foster Social Connection and
Promote Democracy.
Shamichael Hallman (47:40):
Thanks so much for having me.
Jennifer Hiatt (47:42):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation with
Shamichael Hallman Hallman onhis book Meet Me at the Library
A Place to Foster SocialConnection and Promote Democracy
.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at Island
Press, or click the link in theshow notes to take you directly
to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts and please rate, reviewand share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
(48:04):
Booked, on Planning.
Thank you.
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