March 11, 2025 • 43 mins
This episode captures a vision of creating resilient communities that are not only eco-friendly but also accessible and inviting. We explore the five central themes of "The Sustainable Urban Design Handbook," with author Kaarin Knudson's, offering insights on energy efficiency, community connectivity, and innovative design strategies that cater to diverse urban settings.
Show Notes:
- To help support the show, pick up a copy of the book through our Amazon Affiliates page at https://amzn.to/3EKly0z or even better, get a copy through your local bookstore!
- Further Reading:
- Homelessness is a Housing Problem by Greg Colburn and Clayton Page Aldern
- To view the show transcripts, click on the episode at https://bookedonplanning.buzzsprout.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Rouse (00:00):
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You're listening to the Bookedon Planning podcast, a project
of the Nebraska chapter of theAmerican Planning Association.
(00:45):
In each episode we dive intohow cities function, by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
(01:07):
Planning.
In this episode, we talk withKaarin Knutson about her book
the Sustainable Urban DesignHandbook.
This was a really greatconversation on the resource
that this book provides not justto young professionals or
students, but to veterans of thefield or even elected officials
and residents working to maketheir community a more
sustainable, resilient place.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:27):
Yes, I think you will find Kaarin's book useful,
no matter where you are in yourpractice.
I stated in the episode that Iwish I'd had this book earlier
in my career, but as I wasreading through it, I found tips
and ideas to incorporate insome of my current projects,
even.
Stephanie Rouse (01:40):
And I thought Karin's answer to your question
about what she considered urbanwas a really great way to think
about it.
That takes a lot of theconflict out of discussions
around urban design or urbanareas.
Urban doesn't equal density.
It's really about thedevelopment pattern which, as
she points out, a lot of smalltowns are examples of good urban
design patterns.
Jennifer Hiatt (02:00):
Absolutely.
I actually think it's the bestanswer we've ever got into that
question on this podcast.
Stephanie Rouse (02:17):
Kaarin, welcome to the Booked On Planning
Podcast.
We're happy to have you on totalk about your book, the
Sustainable Urban DesignHandbook.
Your book is broken out intofive main themes, and each theme
is then further broken down byits scale, going from the region
down to the parcel level.
Why did you choose to organizethe book in this?
Kaarin Knudson (02:31):
way.
That's a great question tostart with.
Thank you so much, stephanieand Jennifer, for the invitation
to be here on Booked onPlanning and to share this work.
The reason for the organizationof the Sustainable Urban Design
Handbook traces back to thebody of research that helps us
to organize this book and alsothe goals and the objectives
that we're hoping to helpplanners and communities to
(02:52):
accomplish.
So, when thinking aboutsustainability broadly and our
goals to design and plan andaccomplish more sustainable
cities, if that goal is serious,you have to look at the things
that have measurable influenceon sustainability, and so the
five main topics that organizethis book are the five topic
areas that have measurableinfluence on sustainable
(03:12):
outcomes in the builtenvironment, and so, of course,
looking at energy use andgreenhouse gas is critical.
Thinking about ourtransportation and land use
systems, specifically with thattopic area, understanding water
and water resources withincities, ecology and habitat, as
well as energy use andproduction, so essentially, the
use of energy that is inbuildings and is outside of
(03:33):
transportation, and then equityand health.
So those are the five keysustainable urban design topic
areas that also relate to keyoutcomes, the other way that
we've organized this book andthis was one of the great
challenges of researching andediting and designing this book
has to do with the differentscales that people enter a
project at.
So what you mentioned about thisbook reaching from the city and
(03:54):
regional scale all the way tothe project and parcel scale.
That's because when communitiesor organizations or design
teams or planners are engagingwith a project, they're almost
always entering through aparticular scale right A
regional parks plan, aneighborhood park, a particular
street improvement or a bicyclefacility that's being designed,
(04:14):
or a larger scale watershed plan, or a larger scale transit or
comprehensive plan right.
All of those different entrypoints to a project immediately
reveal to you the kinds ofinfluence you can have on
sustainable outcomes.
And so we've essentiallycreated this cross referenceable
collection of integratedconcerns between both those
(04:34):
measurable outcomes in thosetopic areas and the scale of
work where a project initiates,to help people understand how
they can have the most influenceand the most positive outcomes
on the built environment throughtheir work.
Jennifer Hiatt (04:46):
As I was reading through the book, I was really
wishing that I had had a copy afew years ago, as I was
beginning my journey intosustainable design, which
Stephanie has had to help leadme through.
So who were you thinking aboutwhen you were writing the book
and who are you thinking aboutas your target audience?
Kaarin Knudson (05:02):
I love hearing that, that this book is helpful
to you as a person firstengaging, or engaging in what
you might describe as earlier onin your career, related to
sustainable urban design.
I think one of the things that'svery interesting about the
planning profession is that notall planning professionals, even
those who are accredited intheir degrees, members of the
APA not all of them havebackground and training related
(05:23):
to urban design.
In many schools and manyaccredited programs, the focus
in planning is much more on theregulatory structure and
understanding planning, as it islargely separate from physical
planning, and so our hope inorganizing this book in this way
and reaching out to planningprofessionals, young
professionals, students, butalso community groups, elected
leaders, people who are tryingto engage with and make
(05:45):
decisions about theircommunities and their
environments that this would bean accessible point of entry,
and that is one of the thingsthat I have talked with people a
lot about all over the countryis the fact that, because urban
design lives in this overlapbetween many areas of
specialized expertise andprofessional accreditation,
right Like architecture,landscape architecture,
(06:10):
transportation planning, civilengineering, you know political
community engagement, workplanning, you know proper right
as a larger area of work, it'seasy for the concerns of urban
design to be sort of left inbetween, with no one really
understanding how to moredirectly engage with and advance
, you know, shared goals, so ourhope is that this book helps
people at all different levelsof their familiarity with urban
(06:31):
design to better understand thefull picture of sustainable
opportunities in our communities.
Right, you think everyone who'sengaging with the built
environment in their city, intheir community, is thinking
about wanting this place to be abetter, more sustainable
community, is thinking aboutwanting this place to be a
better, more sustainable, moreaffordable, more equitable, more
livable, more sociable place.
Right, and to accomplish thatgoal, you really need a sense of
(06:56):
the integrated sets of concerns, because that will help every
design project and everycommunity engagement project to
stand on better sharedunderstanding of the challenge
and, I think, likely accomplishan outcome that feels more like
something that people can bereally proud of and that can
actually deliver measurably moresustainable outcomes.
Jennifer Hiatt (07:11):
I work in redevelopment now and when I
walked into this job, I thoughtit would be, from the legal
perspective, only negotiatingout an agreement, but it's so
much more because you're havingto talk about what is the
building going to look like?
What materials are you going touse?
So as I was reading through, Iwas able to like tag different
areas.
I think I'm going to bring thatup in our next building
negotiation.
Start thinking about that.
(07:32):
So it's not just for new peopleeither.
It's people well into theircareer.
Kaarin Knudson (07:36):
That is, for people who pick up this book and
I hope that everyone will dothat either at local bookstore
or from Routledge, our publisher.
It's also available on Amazonand other online booksellers.
The hope is that the entrypoint is broad right Like it's a
wide door and very accessible,helping people understand every
one of these more than 50elements of sustainable urban
(07:57):
design that compose influencewithin our cities towards these
measurable improvements.
But that also within each ofthose chapters which, within
each of those 50 plus chapters,the information goes quite deep
and you can kind of use as muchas you need, all the way to the
fact that every chapter endswith a collection of guidelines
and recommendations related tourban design decisions.
Every chapter is structuredwith an introduction and a sort
(08:21):
of snapshot of each urban designelement in action in one way or
another a quick summary andoverview, but also an overview
of how that element is measured,specifically because that's
probably the language thatplanners will most frequently
first hear from theirconstituents and community
members, or from theircolleagues in integrated design
teams and then a wholecollection of cross-referenced
(08:44):
related elements that show howeach individual element of urban
design is influenced by andinfluences other elements.
So when thinking about somethinglike a robust urban forest
canopy, that obviously you knowthat is influenced by patterns
of development, by street design, by transit design, but it also
has enormous influence overthings like ecological corridors
(09:05):
through cities and open spacenetworks and the accessibility
of open space and the equitabledistribution of amenities,
services and uses within cities.
So that kind ofcross-referencing early on is
important for people, becausethat is also a place where often
we're missing a stitch in ourintegrated conversations within
community.
We don't see how one decisioninfluences another and that it's
(09:26):
not always good and bad.
It's trade-offs most often,because you're dealing with
space and you can't doeverything in every inch of
space.
And then from there, eachchapter includes, essentially, a
recommended approach and howthat is different from what we
might see typically, especiallyin the United States, and an
overview of why each element isimportant to sustainable
outcomes in cities and incommunities and the background
(09:47):
that might have more to do withresearch and foundational
elements that are related tothat importance.
And then, as I mentioned,ending with diagrams of how to
implement these differentelements and what we hope is
good early advice for planners,for architects, for community
members, for how you mightdeploy this element of
sustainable urban design.
Not to say that it will tellyou exactly how everything
(10:09):
should be everywhere, but thatit will help you make good early
decisions that will then allowyou to gather more expertise and
deeper input from consultants,design team members, community
members, to be able toaccomplish even better outcomes.
Stephanie Rouse (10:23):
Yeah, as I was reading it.
So Jennifer and I always readthe books front to back.
We go chronologically and thatI think could be really great
for a student reading it orsomeone getting in the
profession wanting to get areally good understanding of
sustainable urban design.
But it also works really well,as you mentioned, all the cross
referencing and how the bookworks.
If you're working on a specificproject or with a specific plan
(10:44):
, you can kind of drill intothat and it 'll cross-reference
you to everything you need toknow to elevate that design and
to make it a more sustainableurban design approach.
I appreciate how the book worksin both ways.
Kaarin Knudson (10:56):
Thank you, that was really a hope.
And in the way each of the fivelarger topic area chapters or
super chapters is introduced,and for people who again are
newer to this conversation orwho have been in it for a long
time but have never really heardsome of that earliest
information about why this topicis important to sustainable
outcomes, our hope is that thatit would be very readable to
(11:17):
people.
That meant a lot to me as anarchitect who was first trained
as a journalist, that it wouldbe a very readable and
accessible resource.
I don't think we do a very goodjob of being accessible.
A lot of times in the buildingculture and with the built
environment, there's a lot ofjargon that can be pretty
impenetrable to most people,even professionals who just
don't know that work or thatarea of expertise.
So our hope is that what you'redescribing would be possible,
(11:39):
but that, as people are usingthe book for years into the
future, that it can actually bea useful design resource and
project reference.
What Jennifer was describingabout, like we're dealing with
this redevelopment site, whatare the issues that we might
want to be thinking about rightnow that could pay back all
sorts of positive dividends forthis project in this community
that a more typical approachthat's not centering
(12:02):
sustainability wouldn'tnecessarily integrate, so it's
wonderful to hear that it hasthat utility for you too.
Stephanie Rouse (12:08):
So within those five sections, you cover 61
different elements ofsustainable urban design, which
often overlap or build on oneanother.
Is there one element that youfeel, if done right, would
really set the stage for all theothers, for positive urban
design?
Kaarin Knudson (12:22):
Oh, I love this question.
In talking with this book,oliver, the country people have
asked, it feels a little bitsometimes like asking about your
favorite child, because we alsoall know that projects have
different opportunities, right,and you might have a favorite
project that doesn't necessarilyhave a particular urban design
element as its most forwardopportunity.
(12:43):
But when asking about influenceoverall, when thinking about
sustainability and all of theother cascading decisions that
communities make, the bookstarts with the urban design
element of compact development.
It's the first element listedin the first topic area related
to energy use and greenhouse gas, greenhouse gas emissions and
that element, when you thinkabout how it deploys within
(13:05):
communities, both as a centralorganizing principle of
compactness right, and thingsbeing more proximate to one
another, of infrastructure nothaving to go so far to deliver
services to different places andto different parcels or to
different sites that transitright and different multimodal
systems are operating in anenvironment that has
destinations that are closer toone another.
(13:27):
Of course, compact developmentis an element of urban design
that has just extraordinaryopportunities to set up future
good decisions, retrofit a verydiffuse and disconnected built
(13:48):
environment because the densityisn't there to support the
services or the infrastructureFinancially.
It's upside down In terms ofsociable relationships.
There's oftentimes not a lot ofconnectedness between people
and the public realm.
It's difficult to serve withinfrastructure and that is more
of an amenity, like park spaceright, because park space needs
to be close to people and so allof those aspects that are
challenged by a moresprawl-oriented environment.
(14:09):
It means that the work toretrofit is just more
challenging.
It's still very possible.
I think that's an enormousopportunity for cities across
the United States, for thiscountry, for other countries
around the world who have alsoreplicated a more sprawl-like
development pattern.
That we really need in the 21stcentury for all of our city
areas to be higher performingand not just in terms of
(14:31):
economic performance butenvironmental performance and
their performance socially, likereally thinking about
performance profiles as theyrelate to the triple bottom line
.
So compact development ishugely important but I would say
overall that any city workingfrom any development pattern or
from a different scale, thatthinking about some of the
principles of compactdevelopment and for a lot of our
(14:51):
emissions you know, and wantingto reduce those and give people
a higher quality of life, thatsort of neighborhood center
(15:13):
retrofitting there's a lot ofopportunity there for people to
be able to walk to the store orsafely walk and bike to a local
park or safely, you know, havekids walk and bike to school.
That's a lot of life right there.
And that's a lot of emissionsthat right now are otherwise
sent out into the environmentand turning into pollution in
cities because people don't havethose opportunities and there's
(15:34):
a lot of reliance on peoplegetting in their cars to drive
everywhere when things are veryfar away.
Stephanie Rouse (15:41):
One of the communities that's surrounding
Omaha, nebraska, la Vista.
They grew as a suburbancommunity.
They never had a core area andrecently have been rebuilding
that neighborhood center, as youwere talking about this kind of
hub of more dense activity andtrying to really spur that some
of these communities.
Are there other methods orapproaches that more suburban
(16:06):
development communities shouldbe looking towards to help kind
of retrofit and fit that morecompact, walkable neighborhood?
Kaarin Knudson (16:14):
I think the strongest influence is around
that strengthening of aneighborhood center, what you
were just describing because formost people, that will deliver
the most benefit in their lives,which will support behavior and
also support climate goals andsupport local goals related to
healthy activity and safety onstreets, right and traffic
(16:34):
safety, but also economicdevelopment, because any
circumstance within cities whereyou can get to a critical mass
of different uses and amenitiestogether is almost always going
to have a positive economicresponse.
Local business, diversity ofdifferent housing types in an
area that then support a greaterdiversity within the workforce
within an area, which thensupports wages and different
(16:57):
industry opportunities right ina more resilient workforce
within an area.
There are an enormous number ofways in which the goals outlined
in this handbook.
Of course, they relate toadvancing our goals related to
the environment and climatechange and reducing the
pollution that people in citiesand communities are exposed to
and also done well.
These goals also support allsorts of other goals related to
(17:21):
economic development andsociable relationships within
community and connectednesswithin community, which I think
right now there is a real hungerfor across all communities
communities that I talk withacross our city and state,
talking with communities inother parts of the country,
hearing from people around theworld, and we in the last 10, 15
, 20 years have put a lot on ourdigital connectedness and I
(17:44):
think what we're experiencingright now is that we actually
need the physical connectedness.
We really need it, and thedesign of places and communities
is how we get that, and most ofthat is through the public
realm, which means most of thatis through community
decision-making and communityleaders and design professionals
, and planners organizingtogether to build stronger
(18:04):
networks and connections.
So I think it's a reason to feeloptimistic even as there are a
lot of really challenging datapoints related to climate and
pollution and the extremeweather events driven by climate
change that communities andcities are going to be grappling
with in the coming decades andare grappling with currently.
It will just be a challenge ofthose events being, I think,
(18:26):
closer together.
Jennifer Hiatt (18:27):
And potentially of larger magnitude as they keep
rolling through too Exactly,yep.
So, being a good Nebraskan, I'malways curious what people are
thinking about when they thinkabout the word urban.
Our largest city is around600,000 people.
When we covered the book Ruralby Design, the author was
thinking that rural would be acommunity of 100,000 or less.
(18:51):
Oh, interesting, yeah, yeah.
So did you have kind of a likeguiding definition of the idea
of urban as you were workingthrough it?
Kaarin Knudson (18:59):
Yes, and I'll also say I am currently the
mayor of Oregon's second largestcity.
But Oregon's second largestcity is a city of 180,000.
That's the center of a metroarea of about 300,000.
And the University of Oregon ishere in Eugene, proud ducks,
and really fortunate to have allthe connections with that
institution that our communityand city have.
I also grew up in a city andwas born in a city of about
(19:22):
250,000, but I spent time as achild in communities and rural
communities as small as a coupleof hundred.
So my experience in differentparts of our country, from
Midwest to Alaska to the PacificNorthwest, is, I would say,
diverse.
And when people ask about and mystudents ask this question too,
I think there's a lot ofconfusion about the term urban,
(19:43):
that urban somehow means justbig, bulky, tall and big.
I've talked with a lot of peoplein our community about the
quality of our urban design andthe quality of our public realm,
the way in which we build ourcity and, fundamentally, when
I'm talking with students andcommunity members about urbanism
, that has to do withunderstanding the fact that each
project is in relationship to anetwork and a collection of
(20:08):
other concerns and that intotality, that single project is
stronger if it has goodrelationships and strong
connections that reinforce thepositive things around it.
Urban to suburban or urban tosprawl as a development pattern.
Many of our smallest ruralcommunities have really
fantastic development patterns,right.
(20:29):
Really simple, small, originalplats with nicely scaled blocks,
nicely scaled streets, aconsistency to that grid of
organization or that pattern ofearly organization.
Rural communities don't tend tobe sprawling as a first
endeavor, right.
So I do think that we can'tignore the time when most cities
and communities sort of grew upin the United States being the
(20:51):
latter half of the 20th centuryand there being a real focus on
essentially single passengerautomobiles being able to take
you anywhere, and that citiesand communities and counties
would provide the infrastructureto make that work.
We're running into a realproblem in the early 21st
century, as we realize.
Wow, these systems never paidfor themselves and the
(21:12):
development pattern that we havedoesn't work in that way,
without additional inputs to thesystem, and those inputs can
either be adding more people tomore efficiently use that land
or it can be increasing taxesand having people pay more for
the existing infrastructure theyhave.
Most people, when they begin tokind of dig into this question
about the quality of the urbanenvironment, realize that they
(21:34):
really love beautiful urbanplaces because those are the
cities that they go to visit astourists and walk around in and
think, like, what a wonderfulstreet with sure trees that are
offering shade.
It told me something about thelocal ecology of this place and
the native species of this place.
And look at these fantasticallycharming storefronts and small
businesses and cafes andrestaurants and it looks like
(21:57):
there are people living on theupper floors along this street
and that's you know, jane Jacobstalking about eyes on the
street, and you know, livingabove the store, as Howard Davis
from the University of Oregonwould be talking about.
That's a pattern that existsacross the world living over the
store, across cultures acrossthe world, and it also almost
always relates to a really highquality urban place, right, even
(22:18):
if the population is small, thepattern of urbanism can still
be really fantastic.
So I do think that's a hugemisunderstanding.
You think about the pattern ofsprawl and its disconnectedness
and inefficiency if you don'thave access to a personal
vehicle, and the siting ofbuildings floating in space.
If we were talking about afigure ground diagram, which
architects and designers oftentalk about, planners sometimes
(22:39):
talk about, you would just see alot of oddly shaped elements
floating in white space right,and not in a relationship to the
public realm, not creating anoutdoor room in the street,
between buildings or in thepublic space between buildings,
just elements in a field.
But then when you look at it insection or as elevation, you
see that sometimes theseelements are quite tall or
mid-rise.
And then you look at that incomparison to a really great
(23:02):
city and a very walkable placeand the difference in that
pattern is immediately obvious.
Jennifer Hiatt (23:08):
I love that concept of urban.
I'm from a town of around 500.
And I've been working with ourvillage board on some updates to
some of our planning documentsand I didn't really think about
it and I was talking to ourboard president I was like, yeah
, I really do love our urbancore and he just looked at me
like I was the weirdest personever.
Kaarin Knudson (23:26):
He's like we're not urban.
I was like, okay, welltechnically that's fair.
Jennifer Hiatt (23:29):
My bad, but our downtown, your city center, the
heart of your community, rightExactly.
Kaarin Knudson (23:36):
I think this is so important to where we're
going in the remainder of the21st century, right.
It's not getting hung up on thatlanguage, but also like,
fantastic that that partner,that community partner you've
got that relationship with, hasa strong enough relationship
with you to immediately observe,like, what are you talking
about?
That's not what I'm thinking.
So it gives you an opportunityto actually engage.
When I think about reallydelightful small towns that I've
(23:58):
spent time in all across thecountry, the pattern where
people are able to be out oftheir cars and walking and in
relationship to a slower and aquieter experience, right and
something that doesn't just feellike infrastructure flying
through, that's a pattern that'severywhere, on the ground, in
most smaller communities.
That means there needs to be,you know, recognizing the
(24:18):
context of where we are.
There needs to be a real focuson managing the impact of the
automobile in those placesBecause unaddressed and
unmanaged response, that's justsort of a cookie cutter response
to redevelopment or newdevelopment.
In a place like that that's amuch finer grain and much more
sensitive to that kind ofdisruption.
It could be really influentialand not a positive way.
(24:40):
So you know, thinking about therelationship of buildings to the
street and we talk about this alot in the book that organizing
buildings so that ground flooruses if they're commercial or
residential have a reallypositive relationship to the
streets, to the pedestrian realmand to the right-of-way at
every scale.
That's a good thing.
You never want if you can avoidit going forward into the
future to put vehicles betweenparking area, between the face
(25:04):
of a building and the publicstreet and the pedestrian space,
because you're just creatingconflict but you're also not
building out a resilient andstrong place and it's also not
going to be a project that haslasting economic value, because
that storefront is always goingto be 50 or 60 feet back from a
street, which is going to meanthat it's not as appealing for
different types of uses.
And there's always ways tomanage vehicles and to manage
(25:25):
parking when needed Parallelparking on street side, street
parking, alley access parkinglots of different strategies.
And then, of course,reinforcing that transportation
options are also reallyimportant, and people who, in
most places, are riding theirbikes, are spending more along
corridors with bicycleinfrastructure than drivers.
They don't spend as much perstop, but they spend more
(25:45):
overall, which is helpful forbusiness owners to know.
Stephanie Rouse (25:49):
Speaking of bicycles, I was really happy to
find.
One of your highlight projectswas our N Street Cycle Track.
Kaarin Knudson (25:54):
It is.
Stephanie Rouse (25:56):
I'm so glad that you mentioned it, so we
made it in there.
I was pretty excited.
Kaarin Knudson (26:01):
Yes, it was really fun to look all across
the country at great projectsthat different cities and
communities are working on, andthere's a lot of different
scales of city and that wassomething that was really
important to me.
It was really important to myco-author, nico Larco, that
people who were looking at thisbook weren't immediately
thinking the Sustainable UrbanDesign Handbook is only for
giant sort of mega cities, right, it's only a handbook related
(26:23):
to very dense, consolidatedpatterns of development.
That's really not the case andthere's lots of great examples
of especially retrofits allaround the country, including in
Nebraska, and it was fun to beable to highlight some of those.
Stephanie Rouse (26:36):
So, with so many different examples from all
across the country, therewasn't really like a highlight
city or a couple cities thatreally stood out.
Do you have any examples ofcities that doing all of this
research over so many years thatyou think these cities are
really nailing it or they'rereally doing a great job with
sustainable urban design thatothers can look to?
Kaarin Knudson (26:55):
There are, but mostly, I would say, what's
important for your listeners totake away is that that city
could literally be any cityimplementing a really fantastic
retrofit of your bus rapidtransit system or is
implementing a really focused,multi-year, successful endeavor
(27:23):
to create a high degree ofpedestrian connectivity across
neighborhood centers or througha downtown area or along a
corridor.
I think, in general, one of thethings that I have learned
through teaching and throughpractice is that sometimes it is
hard for people to relate tocities with very different
populations that immediatelypeople think, oh this is an
(27:44):
example, from Manhattan.
So we're not New York and sotherefore this is irrelevant.
Or we're not Lincoln, and sotherefore this is not a relevant
project for us.
I think what is actually morehelpful and is a great
opportunity for all communitiesis to realize that, looking at
neighborhoods, those are verycomparable across cities, even
when the density is shifting.
There are patterns andrelationships of buildings to
(28:09):
streets and also infrastructureto density.
That is very relatable acrossdifferent populations.
So I'm always encouraging people, as they're traveling, to not
just think about the citythey're visiting, but the
neighborhood that they'revisiting in that city, because
we have so much diversity withinAmerican neighborhoods, within
American cities and there's, Ithink, a lot more connectedness
between those really fantasticexpressions of local personality
(28:29):
than we might otherwise see andit also gets us past the
immediate sort of like we're notlike them.
So we shouldn't look at thatgreat example of that new
bicycle facility or that reallywonderful parks plan or that
effort to address point sourcepollution and health within.
Jennifer Hiatt (28:46):
A community.
One of the aspects of the bookthat I really appreciated is
that you include conditions andcaveats for each section,
because those really are therealities of development.
I love talking with newplanners.
They're always like, well, whycan't we do that?
Well, there are the realitiesof development.
I love talking with newplanners.
They're always like, well, whycan't we do that?
It's like well, there are therealities of development, so I
can probably take a guess, butwhat are some of the main
(29:07):
conditions and caveats that keptpopping up as you were thinking
through each of those?
Kaarin Knudson (29:11):
Oh, that's a great question and thank you for
highlighting that section ineach one of the chapters.
It's another piece of thisresearch that we were just
really hopeful would be helpfulto people in accelerating their
understanding of the fullcontext and complexity of these
decisions.
Because, you're right, it isreally early, when you're new to
something and you're onlyseeing it from your area of
expertise or your values, tojust think, well, this is how it
(29:33):
should be.
Obviously, it should just bethis way.
And we just need to make it thatway and then everything will
work.
And in most of our communityplanning decisions and most of
our urban design decisions, theprocess to get to good outcomes
is much more incremental.
It's always holding a visionand a goal, but the process to
get there in a way that is trulyequitable and that also is
(29:54):
feasible is a much moreincremental process because you
have to build understanding andfind funding and have community
will and political will, all ofthose things.
Some of the caveats andconsiderations that often came
up, some of them have to do withmaintenance, because that is an
area that is often withincities, just sort of ignored.
Within the community.
(30:15):
It mostly happens invisiblyright.
I've talked with people aboutthis in our community as a mayor
.
We in Eugene, oregon, we haveextraordinary forested landscape
that our city is within and theWillamette River Valley and you
know beautiful conifers anddeciduous trees.
So every fall we get thiswatercolor of maples and all
sorts of trees changing colorand then they lose their leaves
(30:35):
and they are everywhere andthose leaves create an enormous
amount of challenge for ourstormwater systems that are
trying to drain also a lot ofrain that shows up at the same
time as those leaves are falling, and then pools in the streets
if those drains are clogged.
So there's a lot of work thatour city does, that every city
does.
Dealing with this experienceand others like it to just like
maintain and keep things workingand sometimes acknowledging
(30:58):
that that maintenance concern isreal is a key step in
accomplishing a better designoutcome, because you don't want
it to just be ignored and thatbe a sort of veto circumstance
later when the peopleimplementing the project are
like we can't manage that it'sgoing to create all sorts of
problems.
So that's an important one forpeople to understand that.
You know I was joking with somepeople several months ago that
(31:19):
the invisible work of dealingwith that leaf circumstance in
our city it's like you know,everyone pushes their leaves out
to the curb and then they'rejust gone magically One morning,
like these piles of leaves thatare as big as a car are just
gone, and that type of work ishappening all day, every day, in
most communities and mostcities.
So maintenance is a big one.
(31:44):
Other areas that people need tounderstand relates back to
community will and politicalwill, because I think when
especially new to work and Ithink of this with my students
and young professionals, whohave often come to planning
specifically to make adifference and to be a force for
good and a force for positivechange within communities.
The incremental aspect of what Ijust mentioned can at first
feel like defeat or feel likethe work isn't actually
happening.
Part of some of thoseconsiderations and caveats that
(32:05):
have to do with understandingthat it takes time to build
political will and communityunderstanding as to why a
project is important, I wouldsay for our community.
Locally, one of those areas issimilar to the example that we
shared from Lincoln retrofittingour streetscapes to include
more protected bicyclefacilities in key areas.
Why?
Because we know that peoplewill not bike in high-stress
(32:26):
areas where they're exposed tohigh-speed traffic, especially
along one-way streets where youare not seeing the traffic that
is driving behind you, that kidswill not ride in those spaces,
parents won't let them and it'sonly going to be a very small
number of bicyclists that willride in traffic or in
unprotected circumstances.
It takes work within acommunity to explain to a
population that has been mostlydriving for a couple of
(32:48):
generations why it is that thatinfrastructure change is
important and how it is that itsupports even people who are not
bicycling, because if peopleare riding their bikes, they're
not driving cars, and so thecongestion potential you know,
in an area that is growing inour city is growing.
You're actually designinginfrastructure that is
supportive of a lower intensityof transportation, sort of
spatial demand right, so that'sreally positive.
(33:10):
But I would say that it stilltakes work because, as those
projects come forward, if peopledon't understand that you have
to build the infrastructurebefore people can use the
infrastructure, then it can feela bit like an uphill battle
because there's notunderstanding of the purpose.
That work, I think, ishappening all the time.
And for people to understandthat with each of these elements
, that there are complexitieswith every one of them and there
(33:31):
are trade-offs, I think thatthat will help people to be more
effective professionals, moretrusted in their work because
they're sharing the fullcomplexity of the problem, but
also better in terms ofpartnering and drawing out
community feedback that would beimportant to a project
succeeding.
Stephanie Rouse (33:45):
I feel like that's so helpful because, as a
new planner, all of those issuesjust kept cropping up and
hitting me.
So the maintenance piece of wecan build this bike lane, but
we're not going to because noone wants to maintain this bike
lane, or we're not going to plowthis in the winter, so we can't
put a protected bike lane inthe street because we can't
maintain it for year round use.
And so I think, being able tosee those issues ahead of time,
(34:06):
you're more prepared and you cankind of come up with some
solutions versus just listeningto the pushback.
Kaarin Knudson (34:12):
I think that that's helpful for for
profession, as I mentioned, likecarrying a lot of care for your
community into your work andunderstanding that also that the
concerns that differentcommunity members have or
different stakeholder groupsmight have that are different
from even your perception of aproject.
That's really useful informationbecause it helps to also paint
a clearer picture of where yourcommunity actually is and the
(34:35):
work that has to be done to feellike it's a shared success.
I think that in most cases,understanding that some of those
caveats are real and some ofthose considerations have to be
taken into account but might notcome up early on because
they're a little morecontentious, right, and might be
an indication of like, oh no,this isn't going to be just 100%
supported, that's fine.
(34:55):
Know that something might notbe 100% supported and then do
the work to reach out to peoplewho have concerns and who knows,
maybe eventually something willbe 100% supported.
But most important is thatthere are enough people within
the community who understand thework to feel like, yes, this is
a trade-off, but I get it andthis trade-off is important
because I care about ourcommunity being more sustainable
(35:17):
, more livable, more affordable,more equitable and we have to
upgrade the operating system, soI get it.
We have to do that work.
Jennifer Hiatt (35:25):
It's always surprising to me how, 10 years
later, people don't evenremember that there were a few
people who spoke out against theproject.
They just love the park orwhatever Almost ever right,
isn't it?
Kaarin Knudson (35:34):
Humans, we are so interesting in this way.
I think it also again putsreally a focus on the expertise
of our planning professionalsand our design teams to really
communicate clearly all of thepotential benefits and that's
another thing that we hope theSustainable Urban Design
Handbook helps with is thatpeople could see that there are
other benefits to this actionthat I wasn't even thinking
(35:54):
about because I was mostlyconcerned, you know, about the
water resources, but actuallythere are all of these other
positive impacts related topollution, related to active,
you know, transportation,related to ecology and habitat
building, energy use, right.
All sorts of things that weren'tnecessarily the first thing
that was being thought of from aparticular perspective.
And again, we hope that thisresource can be helpful in that
(36:18):
way, because I think everycommunity with projects
happening today and into thefuture needs to see all of the
ways in which those investments,those public investments, are
returning benefits and values tothe community.
And it's true that after a newmixed-use residential building
is built and the ground floorhas a great local coffee shop
and another small business andanother small business around
(36:40):
the corner and a hundredhouseholds living in that
building, rarely is that seen asa failure.
Right, that's a, really and isnow contributing to the tax base
like providing all sorts ofpositive benefits for people and
the community, and oftentimesthere is concern that the change
is going to lead to somethingnegative, but in so many cases,
looking at our cities andknowing that we need them to be
(37:01):
more sustainable and moreaffordable and more equitable, a
lot of the change is going tobe very positive because we need
to be moving the needle onthose issues.
Jennifer Hiatt (37:10):
So this is already a dense and informative
book.
So it's really hard to imaginethat there was any information
you wanted to leave behind thatgot left on the cutting room
floor.
But sustainable urban design isalso a massive topic, so were
there topics you weren't able tofit into the book that you
wanted to, but just didn't quitemake the cut?
Kaarin Knudson (37:27):
Oh, great question.
So the book is about 450 pages.
There is a I mentioned topeople, there's a really
fantastic glossary at the backof the book.
That was also really importantto us to include.
Again, a lot of the work thatthis handbook is trying to do is
to better orient people to allof the work that they'll do
across their careers and intheir communities.
It was hard to eventually drawa line and say that's all that's
(37:52):
going into this first edition.
That's the edge of the work andthe research that we can fit
into this book and it's a veryaccessible 450 pages of work.
Each chapter is broken downinto 10 pages or less, so it's
very accessible for people tocome into this resource.
I felt very strongly aboutincorporating an element related
(38:14):
to on-site energy productionand also district energy
production.
Every one of these elements isbased on a body of research and
best practices and those twoareas.
As we're moving through thisresearch and writing this book
in real time, there's a lot ofresearch still being done and it
was not as straightforward inmost cases as to how to
incorporate those elements intothe structure that we had set up
(38:37):
for the book.
So they are, of course, reallyimportant for communities that
are thinking about reducingemissions and thinking about
renewable energy options.
That's going to be verypositive in most cases if you're
trying to measure outcomes.
But that's not incorporatedinto this edition of the book
and there are others.
Hopefully there'll be more workinto the future that helps to
(38:58):
capture that information too.
Stephanie Rouse (38:59):
Hopefully there'll be more work into the
future.
That helps to capture thatinformation too Well, in
addition to getting a copy ofyour book, which we always
recommend all of our listenerscheck out our author's books,
especially yours, is such abeautiful book too.
It's very colorful, with eachsection being its own color.
It's really easy to navigate.
So, in addition to it being avery good resource, I think it
could be a great coffee tablebook too.
Kaarin Knudson (39:18):
I've gotten a few snapshots from people
different firms andprofessionals and colleagues,
but also community members whosaid I just got your book and
it's going to sit on our coffeetable in our office.
That's wonderful.
It was very important to me,very important to both of us,
that it be visually appealingand that the way in which the
book is presented graphically,with so many diagrams and so
(39:40):
many photographs, that thatwould also be another way that
this is not an overwhelming areaof work, right that urban
design does not have to beoverwhelming or complicated in
terms of how you first engage it.
It could also be beautiful andinteresting and cleanly
integrated, and our hope wasthat the way that this book is
put together it would helppeople to feel that way.
Stephanie Rouse (40:01):
I love that.
So what other books would yourecommend our readers check out?
Kaarin Knudson (40:06):
Oh my goodness.
Well, right now I will say thatI'm working on designing a new
housing course at the Universityof Oregon that I will teach
this spring, and so I've beenthinking a lot about housing as
it relates to sustainable urbandesign.
I've also been doing a lot ofwork recently locally and
organizing across in the stateof Oregon and also in cities,
related to housing andhomelessness and understanding
(40:27):
those issues.
When I talk with my planningstudents and see the profiles of
interest that people cominginto the profession have, I
won't surprise either of you tohear that housing and
homelessness and climate andequity are at the top of
concerns of people coming intothe profession because they see
the need to work on how oursystems in our cities are
upgrading to meet those concerns.
(40:47):
I recently had the good fortuneto organize an event with Greg
Colburn, who's one of the twoauthors.
He and Clay Aldern wrote thebook Homelessness is a Housing
Problem and if you have not readthat book as a planner, I would
highly encourage you to do itall listeners of Booked on
Planning because it is veryhelpful at understanding the
structural patterns like that iseven in the subhead of the book
(41:10):
that drive high levels ofhomelessness, you know, at a
city scale or at a metro scaleand using, you know, county data
as well to understand that.
So Homelessness is a HousingProblem is a very readable book.
I would put it in the samecategory of readability as, like
the Color of Law, in that youcan pick up this book and Robert
Starozzi's book.
You can pick up the Color ofLaw and read that pretty quickly
(41:32):
, and I think Homelessness is aHousing Problem is similar.
I think the book that we havewritten, the Sustainable Urban
Design Handbook, is unique amongbooks related to sustainability
and urban design, because ourgoal with this book was not to
present a design manifesto forhow all cities should be or how
all communities should be, andit's not written from a
(41:53):
particular angle related tosustainability.
It's trying to be comprehensiveand capture opportunities
related to all communities.
So you know, in that way, interms of comparing this book to
others, there are a lot of greatbooks out there related to
sustainable urban design andpatterns of development and
different field guides andhistories of development and
essays.
Metropolis is a great book, butthis is different in terms of
(42:16):
how we hope that this handbookcan help people to feel like
they've got a reference and alsoa companion in their work to
try and address these integratedissues that are all across
cities and at different scales.
Stephanie Rouse (42:28):
Yeah, we have homelessness as a housing
problem on our list to hopefullyget those authors on the show
later this year.
Kaarin Knudson (42:35):
Oh, that would be wonderful.
Greg Colburn is at theUniversity of Washington and
he's just a delightful person,brilliant researcher, and he has
some roots in the Midwest atthe University of Minnesota also
, so that could be anotherconnection.
Stephanie Rouse (42:46):
Good, yeah, well, Kaarin, thank you so much
for joining us on the podcasttoday to talk about your book,
the Sustainable Urban DesignHandbook.
Kaarin Knudson (43:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Hiatt (43:04):
Thank you for the opportunity to talk about
this work and I hope that it ishelpful to everyone who's
working on our cities andcommunities and into the future.
It's great to talk with you all.
We hope you enjoyed thisconversation with Kaarin Knudson
about her book, the SustainableUrban Design Handbook.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at
Rutledge or click the link inthe show notes below to take you
directly to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts, and please rate,review and share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
(43:24):
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In each episode we dive intohow cities function, by talking
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Join us as we get Booked onPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked on
(01:07):
Planning.
In this episode, we talk withKaarin Knutson about her book
the Sustainable Urban DesignHandbook.
This was a really greatconversation on the resource
that this book provides not justto young professionals or
students, but to veterans of thefield or even elected officials
and residents working to maketheir community a more
sustainable, resilient place.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:27):
Yes, I think you will find Kaarin's book useful,
no matter where you are in yourpractice.
I stated in the episode that Iwish I'd had this book earlier
in my career, but as I wasreading through it, I found tips
and ideas to incorporate insome of my current projects,
even.
Stephanie Rouse (01:40):
And I thought Karin's answer to your question
about what she considered urbanwas a really great way to think
about it.
That takes a lot of theconflict out of discussions
around urban design or urbanareas.
Urban doesn't equal density.
It's really about thedevelopment pattern which, as
she points out, a lot of smalltowns are examples of good urban
design patterns.
Jennifer Hiatt (02:00):
Absolutely.
I actually think it's the bestanswer we've ever got into that
question on this podcast.
Stephanie Rouse (02:17):
Kaarin, welcome to the Booked On Planning
Podcast.
We're happy to have you on totalk about your book, the
Sustainable Urban DesignHandbook.
Your book is broken out intofive main themes, and each theme
is then further broken down byits scale, going from the region
down to the parcel level.
Why did you choose to organizethe book in this?
Kaarin Knudson (02:31):
way.
That's a great question tostart with.
Thank you so much, stephanieand Jennifer, for the invitation
to be here on Booked onPlanning and to share this work.
The reason for the organizationof the Sustainable Urban Design
Handbook traces back to thebody of research that helps us
to organize this book and alsothe goals and the objectives
that we're hoping to helpplanners and communities to
(02:52):
accomplish.
So, when thinking aboutsustainability broadly and our
goals to design and plan andaccomplish more sustainable
cities, if that goal is serious,you have to look at the things
that have measurable influenceon sustainability, and so the
five main topics that organizethis book are the five topic
areas that have measurableinfluence on sustainable
(03:12):
outcomes in the builtenvironment, and so, of course,
looking at energy use andgreenhouse gas is critical.
Thinking about ourtransportation and land use
systems, specifically with thattopic area, understanding water
and water resources withincities, ecology and habitat, as
well as energy use andproduction, so essentially, the
use of energy that is inbuildings and is outside of
(03:33):
transportation, and then equityand health.
So those are the five keysustainable urban design topic
areas that also relate to keyoutcomes, the other way that
we've organized this book andthis was one of the great
challenges of researching andediting and designing this book
has to do with the differentscales that people enter a
project at.
So what you mentioned about thisbook reaching from the city and
(03:54):
regional scale all the way tothe project and parcel scale.
That's because when communitiesor organizations or design
teams or planners are engagingwith a project, they're almost
always entering through aparticular scale right A
regional parks plan, aneighborhood park, a particular
street improvement or a bicyclefacility that's being designed,
(04:14):
or a larger scale watershed plan, or a larger scale transit or
comprehensive plan right.
All of those different entrypoints to a project immediately
reveal to you the kinds ofinfluence you can have on
sustainable outcomes.
And so we've essentiallycreated this cross referenceable
collection of integratedconcerns between both those
(04:34):
measurable outcomes in thosetopic areas and the scale of
work where a project initiates,to help people understand how
they can have the most influenceand the most positive outcomes
on the built environment throughtheir work.
Jennifer Hiatt (04:46):
As I was reading through the book, I was really
wishing that I had had a copy afew years ago, as I was
beginning my journey intosustainable design, which
Stephanie has had to help leadme through.
So who were you thinking aboutwhen you were writing the book
and who are you thinking aboutas your target audience?
Kaarin Knudson (05:02):
I love hearing that, that this book is helpful
to you as a person firstengaging, or engaging in what
you might describe as earlier onin your career, related to
sustainable urban design.
I think one of the things that'svery interesting about the
planning profession is that notall planning professionals, even
those who are accredited intheir degrees, members of the
APA not all of them havebackground and training related
(05:23):
to urban design.
In many schools and manyaccredited programs, the focus
in planning is much more on theregulatory structure and
understanding planning, as it islargely separate from physical
planning, and so our hope inorganizing this book in this way
and reaching out to planningprofessionals, young
professionals, students, butalso community groups, elected
leaders, people who are tryingto engage with and make
(05:45):
decisions about theircommunities and their
environments that this would bean accessible point of entry,
and that is one of the thingsthat I have talked with people a
lot about all over the countryis the fact that, because urban
design lives in this overlapbetween many areas of
specialized expertise andprofessional accreditation,
right Like architecture,landscape architecture,
(06:10):
transportation planning, civilengineering, you know political
community engagement, workplanning, you know proper right
as a larger area of work, it'seasy for the concerns of urban
design to be sort of left inbetween, with no one really
understanding how to moredirectly engage with and advance
, you know, shared goals, so ourhope is that this book helps
people at all different levelsof their familiarity with urban
(06:31):
design to better understand thefull picture of sustainable
opportunities in our communities.
Right, you think everyone who'sengaging with the built
environment in their city, intheir community, is thinking
about wanting this place to be abetter, more sustainable
community, is thinking aboutwanting this place to be a
better, more sustainable, moreaffordable, more equitable, more
livable, more sociable place.
Right, and to accomplish thatgoal, you really need a sense of
(06:56):
the integrated sets of concerns, because that will help every
design project and everycommunity engagement project to
stand on better sharedunderstanding of the challenge
and, I think, likely accomplishan outcome that feels more like
something that people can bereally proud of and that can
actually deliver measurably moresustainable outcomes.
Jennifer Hiatt (07:11):
I work in redevelopment now and when I
walked into this job, I thoughtit would be, from the legal
perspective, only negotiatingout an agreement, but it's so
much more because you're havingto talk about what is the
building going to look like?
What materials are you going touse?
So as I was reading through, Iwas able to like tag different
areas.
I think I'm going to bring thatup in our next building
negotiation.
Start thinking about that.
(07:32):
So it's not just for new peopleeither.
It's people well into theircareer.
Kaarin Knudson (07:36):
That is, for people who pick up this book and
I hope that everyone will dothat either at local bookstore
or from Routledge, our publisher.
It's also available on Amazonand other online booksellers.
The hope is that the entrypoint is broad right Like it's a
wide door and very accessible,helping people understand every
one of these more than 50elements of sustainable urban
(07:57):
design that compose influencewithin our cities towards these
measurable improvements.
But that also within each ofthose chapters which, within
each of those 50 plus chapters,the information goes quite deep
and you can kind of use as muchas you need, all the way to the
fact that every chapter endswith a collection of guidelines
and recommendations related tourban design decisions.
Every chapter is structuredwith an introduction and a sort
(08:21):
of snapshot of each urban designelement in action in one way or
another a quick summary andoverview, but also an overview
of how that element is measured,specifically because that's
probably the language thatplanners will most frequently
first hear from theirconstituents and community
members, or from theircolleagues in integrated design
teams and then a wholecollection of cross-referenced
(08:44):
related elements that show howeach individual element of urban
design is influenced by andinfluences other elements.
So when thinking about somethinglike a robust urban forest
canopy, that obviously you knowthat is influenced by patterns
of development, by street design, by transit design, but it also
has enormous influence overthings like ecological corridors
(09:05):
through cities and open spacenetworks and the accessibility
of open space and the equitabledistribution of amenities,
services and uses within cities.
So that kind ofcross-referencing early on is
important for people, becausethat is also a place where often
we're missing a stitch in ourintegrated conversations within
community.
We don't see how one decisioninfluences another and that it's
(09:26):
not always good and bad.
It's trade-offs most often,because you're dealing with
space and you can't doeverything in every inch of
space.
And then from there, eachchapter includes, essentially, a
recommended approach and howthat is different from what we
might see typically, especiallyin the United States, and an
overview of why each element isimportant to sustainable
outcomes in cities and incommunities and the background
(09:47):
that might have more to do withresearch and foundational
elements that are related tothat importance.
And then, as I mentioned,ending with diagrams of how to
implement these differentelements and what we hope is
good early advice for planners,for architects, for community
members, for how you mightdeploy this element of
sustainable urban design.
Not to say that it will tellyou exactly how everything
(10:09):
should be everywhere, but thatit will help you make good early
decisions that will then allowyou to gather more expertise and
deeper input from consultants,design team members, community
members, to be able toaccomplish even better outcomes.
Stephanie Rouse (10:23):
Yeah, as I was reading it.
So Jennifer and I always readthe books front to back.
We go chronologically and thatI think could be really great
for a student reading it orsomeone getting in the
profession wanting to get areally good understanding of
sustainable urban design.
But it also works really well,as you mentioned, all the cross
referencing and how the bookworks.
If you're working on a specificproject or with a specific plan
(10:44):
, you can kind of drill intothat and it 'll cross-reference
you to everything you need toknow to elevate that design and
to make it a more sustainableurban design approach.
I appreciate how the book worksin both ways.
Kaarin Knudson (10:56):
Thank you, that was really a hope.
And in the way each of the fivelarger topic area chapters or
super chapters is introduced,and for people who again are
newer to this conversation orwho have been in it for a long
time but have never really heardsome of that earliest
information about why this topicis important to sustainable
outcomes, our hope is that thatit would be very readable to
(11:17):
people.
That meant a lot to me as anarchitect who was first trained
as a journalist, that it wouldbe a very readable and
accessible resource.
I don't think we do a very goodjob of being accessible.
A lot of times in the buildingculture and with the built
environment, there's a lot ofjargon that can be pretty
impenetrable to most people,even professionals who just
don't know that work or thatarea of expertise.
So our hope is that what you'redescribing would be possible,
(11:39):
but that, as people are usingthe book for years into the
future, that it can actually bea useful design resource and
project reference.
What Jennifer was describingabout, like we're dealing with
this redevelopment site, whatare the issues that we might
want to be thinking about rightnow that could pay back all
sorts of positive dividends forthis project in this community
that a more typical approachthat's not centering
(12:02):
sustainability wouldn'tnecessarily integrate, so it's
wonderful to hear that it hasthat utility for you too.
Stephanie Rouse (12:08):
So within those five sections, you cover 61
different elements ofsustainable urban design, which
often overlap or build on oneanother.
Is there one element that youfeel, if done right, would
really set the stage for all theothers, for positive urban
design?
Kaarin Knudson (12:22):
Oh, I love this question.
In talking with this book,oliver, the country people have
asked, it feels a little bitsometimes like asking about your
favorite child, because we alsoall know that projects have
different opportunities, right,and you might have a favorite
project that doesn't necessarilyhave a particular urban design
element as its most forwardopportunity.
(12:43):
But when asking about influenceoverall, when thinking about
sustainability and all of theother cascading decisions that
communities make, the bookstarts with the urban design
element of compact development.
It's the first element listedin the first topic area related
to energy use and greenhouse gas, greenhouse gas emissions and
that element, when you thinkabout how it deploys within
(13:05):
communities, both as a centralorganizing principle of
compactness right, and thingsbeing more proximate to one
another, of infrastructure nothaving to go so far to deliver
services to different places andto different parcels or to
different sites that transitright and different multimodal
systems are operating in anenvironment that has
destinations that are closer toone another.
(13:27):
Of course, compact developmentis an element of urban design
that has just extraordinaryopportunities to set up future
good decisions, retrofit a verydiffuse and disconnected built
(13:48):
environment because the densityisn't there to support the
services or the infrastructureFinancially.
It's upside down In terms ofsociable relationships.
There's oftentimes not a lot ofconnectedness between people
and the public realm.
It's difficult to serve withinfrastructure and that is more
of an amenity, like park spaceright, because park space needs
to be close to people and so allof those aspects that are
challenged by a moresprawl-oriented environment.
(14:09):
It means that the work toretrofit is just more
challenging.
It's still very possible.
I think that's an enormousopportunity for cities across
the United States, for thiscountry, for other countries
around the world who have alsoreplicated a more sprawl-like
development pattern.
That we really need in the 21stcentury for all of our city
areas to be higher performingand not just in terms of
(14:31):
economic performance butenvironmental performance and
their performance socially, likereally thinking about
performance profiles as theyrelate to the triple bottom line
.
So compact development ishugely important but I would say
overall that any city workingfrom any development pattern or
from a different scale, thatthinking about some of the
principles of compactdevelopment and for a lot of our
(14:51):
emissions you know, and wantingto reduce those and give people
a higher quality of life, thatsort of neighborhood center
(15:13):
retrofitting there's a lot ofopportunity there for people to
be able to walk to the store orsafely walk and bike to a local
park or safely, you know, havekids walk and bike to school.
That's a lot of life right there.
And that's a lot of emissionsthat right now are otherwise
sent out into the environmentand turning into pollution in
cities because people don't havethose opportunities and there's
(15:34):
a lot of reliance on peoplegetting in their cars to drive
everywhere when things are veryfar away.
Stephanie Rouse (15:41):
One of the communities that's surrounding
Omaha, nebraska, la Vista.
They grew as a suburbancommunity.
They never had a core area andrecently have been rebuilding
that neighborhood center, as youwere talking about this kind of
hub of more dense activity andtrying to really spur that some
of these communities.
Are there other methods orapproaches that more suburban
(16:06):
development communities shouldbe looking towards to help kind
of retrofit and fit that morecompact, walkable neighborhood?
Kaarin Knudson (16:14):
I think the strongest influence is around
that strengthening of aneighborhood center, what you
were just describing because formost people, that will deliver
the most benefit in their lives,which will support behavior and
also support climate goals andsupport local goals related to
healthy activity and safety onstreets, right and traffic
(16:34):
safety, but also economicdevelopment, because any
circumstance within cities whereyou can get to a critical mass
of different uses and amenitiestogether is almost always going
to have a positive economicresponse.
Local business, diversity ofdifferent housing types in an
area that then support a greaterdiversity within the workforce
within an area, which thensupports wages and different
(16:57):
industry opportunities right ina more resilient workforce
within an area.
There are an enormous number ofways in which the goals outlined
in this handbook.
Of course, they relate toadvancing our goals related to
the environment and climatechange and reducing the
pollution that people in citiesand communities are exposed to
and also done well.
These goals also support allsorts of other goals related to
(17:21):
economic development andsociable relationships within
community and connectednesswithin community, which I think
right now there is a real hungerfor across all communities
communities that I talk withacross our city and state,
talking with communities inother parts of the country,
hearing from people around theworld, and we in the last 10, 15
, 20 years have put a lot on ourdigital connectedness and I
(17:44):
think what we're experiencingright now is that we actually
need the physical connectedness.
We really need it, and thedesign of places and communities
is how we get that, and most ofthat is through the public
realm, which means most of thatis through community
decision-making and communityleaders and design professionals
, and planners organizingtogether to build stronger
(18:04):
networks and connections.
So I think it's a reason to feeloptimistic even as there are a
lot of really challenging datapoints related to climate and
pollution and the extremeweather events driven by climate
change that communities andcities are going to be grappling
with in the coming decades andare grappling with currently.
It will just be a challenge ofthose events being, I think,
(18:26):
closer together.
Jennifer Hiatt (18:27):
And potentially of larger magnitude as they keep
rolling through too Exactly,yep.
So, being a good Nebraskan, I'malways curious what people are
thinking about when they thinkabout the word urban.
Our largest city is around600,000 people.
When we covered the book Ruralby Design, the author was
thinking that rural would be acommunity of 100,000 or less.
(18:51):
Oh, interesting, yeah, yeah.
So did you have kind of a likeguiding definition of the idea
of urban as you were workingthrough it?
Kaarin Knudson (18:59):
Yes, and I'll also say I am currently the
mayor of Oregon's second largestcity.
But Oregon's second largestcity is a city of 180,000.
That's the center of a metroarea of about 300,000.
And the University of Oregon ishere in Eugene, proud ducks,
and really fortunate to have allthe connections with that
institution that our communityand city have.
I also grew up in a city andwas born in a city of about
(19:22):
250,000, but I spent time as achild in communities and rural
communities as small as a coupleof hundred.
So my experience in differentparts of our country, from
Midwest to Alaska to the PacificNorthwest, is, I would say,
diverse.
And when people ask about and mystudents ask this question too,
I think there's a lot ofconfusion about the term urban,
(19:43):
that urban somehow means justbig, bulky, tall and big.
I've talked with a lot of peoplein our community about the
quality of our urban design andthe quality of our public realm,
the way in which we build ourcity and, fundamentally, when
I'm talking with students andcommunity members about urbanism
, that has to do withunderstanding the fact that each
project is in relationship to anetwork and a collection of
(20:08):
other concerns and that intotality, that single project is
stronger if it has goodrelationships and strong
connections that reinforce thepositive things around it.
Urban to suburban or urban tosprawl as a development pattern.
Many of our smallest ruralcommunities have really
fantastic development patterns,right.
(20:29):
Really simple, small, originalplats with nicely scaled blocks,
nicely scaled streets, aconsistency to that grid of
organization or that pattern ofearly organization.
Rural communities don't tend tobe sprawling as a first
endeavor, right.
So I do think that we can'tignore the time when most cities
and communities sort of grew upin the United States being the
(20:51):
latter half of the 20th centuryand there being a real focus on
essentially single passengerautomobiles being able to take
you anywhere, and that citiesand communities and counties
would provide the infrastructureto make that work.
We're running into a realproblem in the early 21st
century, as we realize.
Wow, these systems never paidfor themselves and the
(21:12):
development pattern that we havedoesn't work in that way,
without additional inputs to thesystem, and those inputs can
either be adding more people tomore efficiently use that land
or it can be increasing taxesand having people pay more for
the existing infrastructure theyhave.
Most people, when they begin tokind of dig into this question
about the quality of the urbanenvironment, realize that they
(21:34):
really love beautiful urbanplaces because those are the
cities that they go to visit astourists and walk around in and
think, like, what a wonderfulstreet with sure trees that are
offering shade.
It told me something about thelocal ecology of this place and
the native species of this place.
And look at these fantasticallycharming storefronts and small
businesses and cafes andrestaurants and it looks like
(21:57):
there are people living on theupper floors along this street
and that's you know, jane Jacobstalking about eyes on the
street, and you know, livingabove the store, as Howard Davis
from the University of Oregonwould be talking about.
That's a pattern that existsacross the world living over the
store, across cultures acrossthe world, and it also almost
always relates to a really highquality urban place, right, even
(22:18):
if the population is small, thepattern of urbanism can still
be really fantastic.
So I do think that's a hugemisunderstanding.
You think about the pattern ofsprawl and its disconnectedness
and inefficiency if you don'thave access to a personal
vehicle, and the siting ofbuildings floating in space.
If we were talking about afigure ground diagram, which
architects and designers oftentalk about, planners sometimes
(22:39):
talk about, you would just see alot of oddly shaped elements
floating in white space right,and not in a relationship to the
public realm, not creating anoutdoor room in the street,
between buildings or in thepublic space between buildings,
just elements in a field.
But then when you look at it insection or as elevation, you
see that sometimes theseelements are quite tall or
mid-rise.
And then you look at that incomparison to a really great
(23:02):
city and a very walkable placeand the difference in that
pattern is immediately obvious.
Jennifer Hiatt (23:08):
I love that concept of urban.
I'm from a town of around 500.
And I've been working with ourvillage board on some updates to
some of our planning documentsand I didn't really think about
it and I was talking to ourboard president I was like, yeah
, I really do love our urbancore and he just looked at me
like I was the weirdest personever.
Kaarin Knudson (23:26):
He's like we're not urban.
I was like, okay, welltechnically that's fair.
Jennifer Hiatt (23:29):
My bad, but our downtown, your city center, the
heart of your community, rightExactly.
Kaarin Knudson (23:36):
I think this is so important to where we're
going in the remainder of the21st century, right.
It's not getting hung up on thatlanguage, but also like,
fantastic that that partner,that community partner you've
got that relationship with, hasa strong enough relationship
with you to immediately observe,like, what are you talking
about?
That's not what I'm thinking.
So it gives you an opportunityto actually engage.
When I think about reallydelightful small towns that I've
(23:58):
spent time in all across thecountry, the pattern where
people are able to be out oftheir cars and walking and in
relationship to a slower and aquieter experience, right and
something that doesn't just feellike infrastructure flying
through, that's a pattern that'severywhere, on the ground, in
most smaller communities.
That means there needs to be,you know, recognizing the
(24:18):
context of where we are.
There needs to be a real focuson managing the impact of the
automobile in those placesBecause unaddressed and
unmanaged response, that's justsort of a cookie cutter response
to redevelopment or newdevelopment.
In a place like that that's amuch finer grain and much more
sensitive to that kind ofdisruption.
It could be really influentialand not a positive way.
(24:40):
So you know, thinking about therelationship of buildings to the
street and we talk about this alot in the book that organizing
buildings so that ground flooruses if they're commercial or
residential have a reallypositive relationship to the
streets, to the pedestrian realmand to the right-of-way at
every scale.
That's a good thing.
You never want if you can avoidit going forward into the
future to put vehicles betweenparking area, between the face
(25:04):
of a building and the publicstreet and the pedestrian space,
because you're just creatingconflict but you're also not
building out a resilient andstrong place and it's also not
going to be a project that haslasting economic value, because
that storefront is always goingto be 50 or 60 feet back from a
street, which is going to meanthat it's not as appealing for
different types of uses.
And there's always ways tomanage vehicles and to manage
(25:25):
parking when needed Parallelparking on street side, street
parking, alley access parkinglots of different strategies.
And then, of course,reinforcing that transportation
options are also reallyimportant, and people who, in
most places, are riding theirbikes, are spending more along
corridors with bicycleinfrastructure than drivers.
They don't spend as much perstop, but they spend more
(25:45):
overall, which is helpful forbusiness owners to know.
Stephanie Rouse (25:49):
Speaking of bicycles, I was really happy to
find.
One of your highlight projectswas our N Street Cycle Track.
Kaarin Knudson (25:54):
It is.
Stephanie Rouse (25:56):
I'm so glad that you mentioned it, so we
made it in there.
I was pretty excited.
Kaarin Knudson (26:01):
Yes, it was really fun to look all across
the country at great projectsthat different cities and
communities are working on, andthere's a lot of different
scales of city and that wassomething that was really
important to me.
It was really important to myco-author, nico Larco, that
people who were looking at thisbook weren't immediately
thinking the Sustainable UrbanDesign Handbook is only for
giant sort of mega cities, right, it's only a handbook related
(26:23):
to very dense, consolidatedpatterns of development.
That's really not the case andthere's lots of great examples
of especially retrofits allaround the country, including in
Nebraska, and it was fun to beable to highlight some of those.
Stephanie Rouse (26:36):
So, with so many different examples from all
across the country, therewasn't really like a highlight
city or a couple cities thatreally stood out.
Do you have any examples ofcities that doing all of this
research over so many years thatyou think these cities are
really nailing it or they'rereally doing a great job with
sustainable urban design thatothers can look to?
Kaarin Knudson (26:55):
There are, but mostly, I would say, what's
important for your listeners totake away is that that city
could literally be any cityimplementing a really fantastic
retrofit of your bus rapidtransit system or is
implementing a really focused,multi-year, successful endeavor
(27:23):
to create a high degree ofpedestrian connectivity across
neighborhood centers or througha downtown area or along a
corridor.
I think, in general, one of thethings that I have learned
through teaching and throughpractice is that sometimes it is
hard for people to relate tocities with very different
populations that immediatelypeople think, oh this is an
(27:44):
example, from Manhattan.
So we're not New York and sotherefore this is irrelevant.
Or we're not Lincoln, and sotherefore this is not a relevant
project for us.
I think what is actually morehelpful and is a great
opportunity for all communitiesis to realize that, looking at
neighborhoods, those are verycomparable across cities, even
when the density is shifting.
There are patterns andrelationships of buildings to
(28:09):
streets and also infrastructureto density.
That is very relatable acrossdifferent populations.
So I'm always encouraging people, as they're traveling, to not
just think about the citythey're visiting, but the
neighborhood that they'revisiting in that city, because
we have so much diversity withinAmerican neighborhoods, within
American cities and there's, Ithink, a lot more connectedness
between those really fantasticexpressions of local personality
(28:29):
than we might otherwise see andit also gets us past the
immediate sort of like we're notlike them.
So we shouldn't look at thatgreat example of that new
bicycle facility or that reallywonderful parks plan or that
effort to address point sourcepollution and health within.
Jennifer Hiatt (28:46):
A community.
One of the aspects of the bookthat I really appreciated is
that you include conditions andcaveats for each section,
because those really are therealities of development.
I love talking with newplanners.
They're always like, well, whycan't we do that?
Well, there are the realitiesof development.
I love talking with newplanners.
They're always like, well, whycan't we do that?
It's like well, there are therealities of development, so I
can probably take a guess, butwhat are some of the main
(29:07):
conditions and caveats that keptpopping up as you were thinking
through each of those?
Kaarin Knudson (29:11):
Oh, that's a great question and thank you for
highlighting that section ineach one of the chapters.
It's another piece of thisresearch that we were just
really hopeful would be helpfulto people in accelerating their
understanding of the fullcontext and complexity of these
decisions.
Because, you're right, it isreally early, when you're new to
something and you're onlyseeing it from your area of
expertise or your values, tojust think, well, this is how it
(29:33):
should be.
Obviously, it should just bethis way.
And we just need to make it thatway and then everything will
work.
And in most of our communityplanning decisions and most of
our urban design decisions, theprocess to get to good outcomes
is much more incremental.
It's always holding a visionand a goal, but the process to
get there in a way that is trulyequitable and that also is
(29:54):
feasible is a much moreincremental process because you
have to build understanding andfind funding and have community
will and political will, all ofthose things.
Some of the caveats andconsiderations that often came
up, some of them have to do withmaintenance, because that is an
area that is often withincities, just sort of ignored.
Within the community.
(30:15):
It mostly happens invisiblyright.
I've talked with people aboutthis in our community as a mayor
.
We in Eugene, oregon, we haveextraordinary forested landscape
that our city is within and theWillamette River Valley and you
know beautiful conifers anddeciduous trees.
So every fall we get thiswatercolor of maples and all
sorts of trees changing colorand then they lose their leaves
(30:35):
and they are everywhere andthose leaves create an enormous
amount of challenge for ourstormwater systems that are
trying to drain also a lot ofrain that shows up at the same
time as those leaves are falling, and then pools in the streets
if those drains are clogged.
So there's a lot of work thatour city does, that every city
does.
Dealing with this experienceand others like it to just like
maintain and keep things workingand sometimes acknowledging
(30:58):
that that maintenance concern isreal is a key step in
accomplishing a better designoutcome, because you don't want
it to just be ignored and thatbe a sort of veto circumstance
later when the peopleimplementing the project are
like we can't manage that it'sgoing to create all sorts of
problems.
So that's an important one forpeople to understand that.
You know I was joking with somepeople several months ago that
(31:19):
the invisible work of dealingwith that leaf circumstance in
our city it's like you know,everyone pushes their leaves out
to the curb and then they'rejust gone magically One morning,
like these piles of leaves thatare as big as a car are just
gone, and that type of work ishappening all day, every day, in
most communities and mostcities.
So maintenance is a big one.
(31:44):
Other areas that people need tounderstand relates back to
community will and politicalwill, because I think when
especially new to work and Ithink of this with my students
and young professionals, whohave often come to planning
specifically to make adifference and to be a force for
good and a force for positivechange within communities.
The incremental aspect of what Ijust mentioned can at first
feel like defeat or feel likethe work isn't actually
happening.
Part of some of thoseconsiderations and caveats that
(32:05):
have to do with understandingthat it takes time to build
political will and communityunderstanding as to why a
project is important, I wouldsay for our community.
Locally, one of those areas issimilar to the example that we
shared from Lincoln retrofittingour streetscapes to include
more protected bicyclefacilities in key areas.
Why?
Because we know that peoplewill not bike in high-stress
(32:26):
areas where they're exposed tohigh-speed traffic, especially
along one-way streets where youare not seeing the traffic that
is driving behind you, that kidswill not ride in those spaces,
parents won't let them and it'sonly going to be a very small
number of bicyclists that willride in traffic or in
unprotected circumstances.
It takes work within acommunity to explain to a
population that has been mostlydriving for a couple of
(32:48):
generations why it is that thatinfrastructure change is
important and how it is that itsupports even people who are not
bicycling, because if peopleare riding their bikes, they're
not driving cars, and so thecongestion potential you know,
in an area that is growing inour city is growing.
You're actually designinginfrastructure that is
supportive of a lower intensityof transportation, sort of
spatial demand right, so that'sreally positive.
(33:10):
But I would say that it stilltakes work because, as those
projects come forward, if peopledon't understand that you have
to build the infrastructurebefore people can use the
infrastructure, then it can feela bit like an uphill battle
because there's notunderstanding of the purpose.
That work, I think, ishappening all the time.
And for people to understandthat with each of these elements
, that there are complexitieswith every one of them and there
(33:31):
are trade-offs, I think thatthat will help people to be more
effective professionals, moretrusted in their work because
they're sharing the fullcomplexity of the problem, but
also better in terms ofpartnering and drawing out
community feedback that would beimportant to a project
succeeding.
Stephanie Rouse (33:45):
I feel like that's so helpful because, as a
new planner, all of those issuesjust kept cropping up and
hitting me.
So the maintenance piece of wecan build this bike lane, but
we're not going to because noone wants to maintain this bike
lane, or we're not going to plowthis in the winter, so we can't
put a protected bike lane inthe street because we can't
maintain it for year round use.
And so I think, being able tosee those issues ahead of time,
(34:06):
you're more prepared and you cankind of come up with some
solutions versus just listeningto the pushback.
Kaarin Knudson (34:12):
I think that that's helpful for for
profession, as I mentioned, likecarrying a lot of care for your
community into your work andunderstanding that also that the
concerns that differentcommunity members have or
different stakeholder groupsmight have that are different
from even your perception of aproject.
That's really useful informationbecause it helps to also paint
a clearer picture of where yourcommunity actually is and the
(34:35):
work that has to be done to feellike it's a shared success.
I think that in most cases,understanding that some of those
caveats are real and some ofthose considerations have to be
taken into account but might notcome up early on because
they're a little morecontentious, right, and might be
an indication of like, oh no,this isn't going to be just 100%
supported, that's fine.
(34:55):
Know that something might notbe 100% supported and then do
the work to reach out to peoplewho have concerns and who knows,
maybe eventually something willbe 100% supported.
But most important is thatthere are enough people within
the community who understand thework to feel like, yes, this is
a trade-off, but I get it andthis trade-off is important
because I care about ourcommunity being more sustainable
(35:17):
, more livable, more affordable,more equitable and we have to
upgrade the operating system, soI get it.
We have to do that work.
Jennifer Hiatt (35:25):
It's always surprising to me how, 10 years
later, people don't evenremember that there were a few
people who spoke out against theproject.
They just love the park orwhatever Almost ever right,
isn't it?
Kaarin Knudson (35:34):
Humans, we are so interesting in this way.
I think it also again putsreally a focus on the expertise
of our planning professionalsand our design teams to really
communicate clearly all of thepotential benefits and that's
another thing that we hope theSustainable Urban Design
Handbook helps with is thatpeople could see that there are
other benefits to this actionthat I wasn't even thinking
(35:54):
about because I was mostlyconcerned, you know, about the
water resources, but actuallythere are all of these other
positive impacts related topollution, related to active,
you know, transportation,related to ecology and habitat
building, energy use, right.
All sorts of things that weren'tnecessarily the first thing
that was being thought of from aparticular perspective.
And again, we hope that thisresource can be helpful in that
(36:18):
way, because I think everycommunity with projects
happening today and into thefuture needs to see all of the
ways in which those investments,those public investments, are
returning benefits and values tothe community.
And it's true that after a newmixed-use residential building
is built and the ground floorhas a great local coffee shop
and another small business andanother small business around
(36:40):
the corner and a hundredhouseholds living in that
building, rarely is that seen asa failure.
Right, that's a, really and isnow contributing to the tax base
like providing all sorts ofpositive benefits for people and
the community, and oftentimesthere is concern that the change
is going to lead to somethingnegative, but in so many cases,
looking at our cities andknowing that we need them to be
(37:01):
more sustainable and moreaffordable and more equitable, a
lot of the change is going tobe very positive because we need
to be moving the needle onthose issues.
Jennifer Hiatt (37:10):
So this is already a dense and informative
book.
So it's really hard to imaginethat there was any information
you wanted to leave behind thatgot left on the cutting room
floor.
But sustainable urban design isalso a massive topic, so were
there topics you weren't able tofit into the book that you
wanted to, but just didn't quitemake the cut?
Kaarin Knudson (37:27):
Oh, great question.
So the book is about 450 pages.
There is a I mentioned topeople, there's a really
fantastic glossary at the backof the book.
That was also really importantto us to include.
Again, a lot of the work thatthis handbook is trying to do is
to better orient people to allof the work that they'll do
across their careers and intheir communities.
It was hard to eventually drawa line and say that's all that's
(37:52):
going into this first edition.
That's the edge of the work andthe research that we can fit
into this book and it's a veryaccessible 450 pages of work.
Each chapter is broken downinto 10 pages or less, so it's
very accessible for people tocome into this resource.
I felt very strongly aboutincorporating an element related
(38:14):
to on-site energy productionand also district energy
production.
Every one of these elements isbased on a body of research and
best practices and those twoareas.
As we're moving through thisresearch and writing this book
in real time, there's a lot ofresearch still being done and it
was not as straightforward inmost cases as to how to
incorporate those elements intothe structure that we had set up
(38:37):
for the book.
So they are, of course, reallyimportant for communities that
are thinking about reducingemissions and thinking about
renewable energy options.
That's going to be verypositive in most cases if you're
trying to measure outcomes.
But that's not incorporatedinto this edition of the book
and there are others.
Hopefully there'll be more workinto the future that helps to
(38:58):
capture that information too.
Stephanie Rouse (38:59):
Hopefully there'll be more work into the
future.
That helps to capture thatinformation too Well, in
addition to getting a copy ofyour book, which we always
recommend all of our listenerscheck out our author's books,
especially yours, is such abeautiful book too.
It's very colorful, with eachsection being its own color.
It's really easy to navigate.
So, in addition to it being avery good resource, I think it
could be a great coffee tablebook too.
Kaarin Knudson (39:18):
I've gotten a few snapshots from people
different firms andprofessionals and colleagues,
but also community members whosaid I just got your book and
it's going to sit on our coffeetable in our office.
That's wonderful.
It was very important to me,very important to both of us,
that it be visually appealingand that the way in which the
book is presented graphically,with so many diagrams and so
(39:40):
many photographs, that thatwould also be another way that
this is not an overwhelming areaof work, right that urban
design does not have to beoverwhelming or complicated in
terms of how you first engage it.
It could also be beautiful andinteresting and cleanly
integrated, and our hope wasthat the way that this book is
put together it would helppeople to feel that way.
Stephanie Rouse (40:01):
I love that.
So what other books would yourecommend our readers check out?
Kaarin Knudson (40:06):
Oh my goodness.
Well, right now I will say thatI'm working on designing a new
housing course at the Universityof Oregon that I will teach
this spring, and so I've beenthinking a lot about housing as
it relates to sustainable urbandesign.
I've also been doing a lot ofwork recently locally and
organizing across in the stateof Oregon and also in cities,
related to housing andhomelessness and understanding
(40:27):
those issues.
When I talk with my planningstudents and see the profiles of
interest that people cominginto the profession have, I
won't surprise either of you tohear that housing and
homelessness and climate andequity are at the top of
concerns of people coming intothe profession because they see
the need to work on how oursystems in our cities are
upgrading to meet those concerns.
(40:47):
I recently had the good fortuneto organize an event with Greg
Colburn, who's one of the twoauthors.
He and Clay Aldern wrote thebook Homelessness is a Housing
Problem and if you have not readthat book as a planner, I would
highly encourage you to do itall listeners of Booked on
Planning because it is veryhelpful at understanding the
structural patterns like that iseven in the subhead of the book
(41:10):
that drive high levels ofhomelessness, you know, at a
city scale or at a metro scaleand using, you know, county data
as well to understand that.
So Homelessness is a HousingProblem is a very readable book.
I would put it in the samecategory of readability as, like
the Color of Law, in that youcan pick up this book and Robert
Starozzi's book.
You can pick up the Color ofLaw and read that pretty quickly
(41:32):
, and I think Homelessness is aHousing Problem is similar.
I think the book that we havewritten, the Sustainable Urban
Design Handbook, is unique amongbooks related to sustainability
and urban design, because ourgoal with this book was not to
present a design manifesto forhow all cities should be or how
all communities should be, andit's not written from a
(41:53):
particular angle related tosustainability.
It's trying to be comprehensiveand capture opportunities
related to all communities.
So you know, in that way, interms of comparing this book to
others, there are a lot of greatbooks out there related to
sustainable urban design andpatterns of development and
different field guides andhistories of development and
essays.
Metropolis is a great book, butthis is different in terms of
(42:16):
how we hope that this handbookcan help people to feel like
they've got a reference and alsoa companion in their work to
try and address these integratedissues that are all across
cities and at different scales.
Stephanie Rouse (42:28):
Yeah, we have homelessness as a housing
problem on our list to hopefullyget those authors on the show
later this year.
Kaarin Knudson (42:35):
Oh, that would be wonderful.
Greg Colburn is at theUniversity of Washington and
he's just a delightful person,brilliant researcher, and he has
some roots in the Midwest atthe University of Minnesota also
, so that could be anotherconnection.
Stephanie Rouse (42:46):
Good, yeah, well, Kaarin, thank you so much
for joining us on the podcasttoday to talk about your book,
the Sustainable Urban DesignHandbook.
Kaarin Knudson (43:03):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Hiatt (43:04):
Thank you for the opportunity to talk about
this work and I hope that it ishelpful to everyone who's
working on our cities andcommunities and into the future.
It's great to talk with you all.
We hope you enjoyed thisconversation with Kaarin Knudson
about her book, the SustainableUrban Design Handbook.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at
Rutledge or click the link inthe show notes below to take you
directly to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts, and please rate,review and share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
(43:24):
Booked, on Planning you.
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