January 28, 2025 • 33 mins
Have you ever stopped to consider how you would get through your day if driving wasn't an option? We get into this question during our conversation with Anna Zivarts, author of "When Driving Is Not An Option: Steering Away From Car Dependency." Anna's journey, shaped by living with nystagmus, unveils the challenges and daily realities faced by non-drivers in a predominantly car-dependent society. From disabled individuals to those who simply can't afford a vehicle, Anna sheds light on an often-overlooked demographic and their need for equitable transportation solutions. Her insights encourage a deeper understanding and empathy towards fostering inclusive urban environments.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Rouse (00:00):
This episode is brought to you by Marvin
Planning Consultants.
Marvin Planning Consultants,established in 2009, is
committed to their clients andprofessional organizations.
Their team of planners hasserved on chapter division and
national committees, includingas the Nebraska Chapter
President.
In addition, they are committedto supporting their chapter in
various APA divisions.
You're listening to the bookedon planning podcast, a project
(00:34):
of the nebraska chapter of theamerican planning association.
In each episode, we dive intohow cities function by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked OnPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked On
(00:59):
Planning.
In this episode, we talk withAnna Zivarts about her book when
Driving Is Not An OptionSteering Away From Car
Dependency.
This was just one of many greattransportation books published
by Island Press last year thatwe were able to cover on the
show.
We tied into a lot of theconcepts that are in those other
books as well, like buildingsafe, accessible streets and
valuing moving people overmoving cars, and Anna mentions a
(01:20):
focus to try to tie indisability advocate groups into
the work of transportationadvocacy working towards better
built streets.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:28):
It was such an eye-opening book I'd like to try
to do the week without drivingchallenge with some of Lincoln's
city leaders.
The conversation really made methink about how car dependent I
am and how much harder thingswould be if I couldn't just hop
in my car.
Stephanie Rouse (01:40):
What really stuck with me in this episode
was finding a way to valuepeople outside a car as people
who need to get places.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:46):
It seems so glaringly obvious that we would
plan this way, but we don't, andthe number of non-drivers is
higher than you might think whenyou think about children,
elderly, disabled people.
So let's get into ourconversation with author Anna
Zivarts about her book whenDriving is Not an Option
Steering Away from CarDependency.
Stephanie Rouse (02:06):
Anna, welcome to the Bookdown Planning Podcast
.
We're happy to have you on totalk about your book when
Driving is Not an OptionSteering Away from Car
Dependency.
Can you start off by talkingabout what spurred you to write
this book?
Anna Zivarts (02:20):
Yeah, hi, thanks for having me.
So this book comes both out ofmy personal experience and then
work I got to do at DisabilityRights Washington, which is
where I work now.
But I was born with an eyecondition called nystagmus, and
it's a neurological condition.
It makes my eyes shake all thetime when I'm conscious, and
they don't really know totallywhy it does that, what causes it
(02:42):
, but it reduces my visualacuity and so I do not see well
enough to drive a car, amongother things, and so that's
really shaped the direction ofmy life in many ways, both in
you know where I can live, whereI choose to live, and the kind
of work I do, and the work I doconnected to the disability
community.
Stephanie Rouse (03:02):
And in the introduction of the book you
point out that a third of peoplein the US can't drive, and this
population includes people whoare disabled, can't afford to
drive, are minority, immigrant,seniors and youth, and it's
often challenging to get a goodcount on this population, but
it's the first step in valuingthe needs of non-drivers.
How have you been able tosuccessfully account for this
(03:23):
population and the work thatyou've done?
How have you been able?
Anna Zivarts (03:25):
to successfully account for this population and
the work that you've done.
So this started from me growingup in a semi-rural part of
Washington state and feelinglike when I turned 16 and I
couldn't get my driver's license, I was the only one right.
I didn't really know otheradults who didn't drive, or I
didn't think I did.
And then I moved to New YorkCity after college and it felt
so exciting for it to be totallynormalized, not to have a car
(03:48):
and not to get places drivingyourself, and that was lovely
for me, to be surrounded by somany other transit riders and
people who walked and rolled andbiked, took the subway to get
places, and so when I had a kid,I decided I wanted to move back
closer to family, had theopportunity to move back here to
Washington State, where I amnow, and I remember reaching out
(04:09):
to people here trying to figureout does everyone drive?
Because that was my experiencegrowing up here Is it going to
be possible for me to get aroundwithout driving?
And you know, heard from somefolks who were living here who
were riding bikes and taking thebus that it was possible some
folks who were living here whowere riding bikes and taking the
bus that it was possible.
(04:30):
But it wasn't really until Istarted working at a disability
organization when I met lots ofother disabled folks who didn't
drive and couldn't drive, that Istarted to see, oh my gosh,
there are so many non-driversout there.
And then I started reflectingmore on the work I had done for
many years in New York withlabor unions, with service
worker unions, where many of themembers were low wage
immigrants, lots of low wageimmigrant women who couldn't
afford cars and also didn't havedriver's licenses.
(04:50):
And so I started to think, youknow, gosh, there are so many of
us.
And then you think about kids,you think about people aging out
of driving, and that's sort ofwhen I started to realize that
there was this sort of unseenand unrecognized need for
transportation access thatdidn't involve driving, and it
wasn't just people who wanted tobike places out of sort of you
know, the fun of doing that orthe desire to be environmental.
(05:13):
There were many people whodidn't have that choice.
Stephanie Rouse (05:17):
It's interesting you point out, once
you started looking, you startedseeing all these other people,
because I've noticed that when Istarted paying attention to who
is actually biking year I'vestarted to notice like there are
a lot of people actually outbiking.
The perception is that there'snot people biking for commuting,
but once you start to look yousee that there are plenty of
people out there choosing to dothat or that, have to do that.
Anna Zivarts (05:37):
Exactly right and you start to notice that in all
sorts of ways you know thepeople biking and it's probably
like in my neighborhood.
You know, if you've got a nicefancy e-bike you're going to
take the relaxing like bikeroutes but those are all really
through hilly areas and so ifyou can't afford an e-bike
you're going to be riding thesidewalks on the arterials
because those are much flatter,and every time I'm down there
trying to cross this big gnarlyarterial in my neighborhood I
(06:00):
see people biking out ofnecessity.
Or, you know, when you see thelike paths worn in the shoulder
and the side of busy roads wherethere's no sidewalk, and you're
like okay, a lot of people walkhere and we may not see them
all the time, but clearly thereare people who are using this
part of our infrastructure outof necessity who are not
recognizing as valid users ofthis transportation system or,
(06:22):
you know, rewarding with asystem that really is designed
around their needs.
Jennifer Hiatt (06:27):
And one of the points that you make in the book
that struck me is the apps likeGoogle Earth actually aren't
really all that helpful inplanning out walking and biking
routes, which I would have neverthought of.
So can you explain why that isand what communities can do to
help reduce this gap in datainformation?
Anna Zivarts (06:42):
Oh my, gosh the data gap.
It's huge, right, and it's sofrustrating, you know, because
we've had Google Maps now for along time, but it's really just
based on car routes, and so whenyou take a pedestrian route or
you ask for a pedestrian route,what it's doing is just telling
you you know the car route at aslower speed, and that doesn't
work.
If you need to make sure thatyou have an accessible route,
for example, with curb ramps orwith accessible pedestrian, you
(07:05):
know the audible tactile signalsto get across an intersection,
and so there are folks out theredoing really great data
collection around trying to mapaccessibility and sidewalks, but
it's not universal yet and youknow there's not the expectation
that it's something that ourtransportation departments
collect and maintain the waythey do data about roadways for
(07:27):
cars, and that part, for me, isso frustrating because you know
they could, and it's not likeit's rocket science, like the
technology exists now.
There's lots of different waysto do it, but they're worried
about the liability if they haveall this data that shows
missing sidewalks or missingcurb ramps and someone gets hurt
or someone wants to bring anADA complaint.
They don't want to beresponsible, and so they'd
rather often rather not havethat data which is, then how do
(07:50):
you go out and make a plan tofix the gaps if you don't
actually know where those gapsare?
Stephanie Rouse (07:56):
Yeah, one of the frustrating things as well
is like with our bike network inour downtown core.
There's areas where you're notsupposed to ride on the sidewalk
, but we also have a lot ofone-way streets and most people
rely on Google to map you whereyou're going.
You're not going to look at abike map and say I'm going to
take this route and I triedmercilessly to get Google to
update their routing so theywould stop sending bicyclists
(08:17):
down the wrong way of a one-waywhere they weren't supposed to
be on the sidewalk, and it'sjust like pulling teeth to work
with Google if you have the data, even to get them to update it,
because a lot of people rely onthat versus another separate
app.
Or if they were just trying togo to GIS and on a web-based
website to find a route.
Anna Zivarts (08:36):
Yeah, it is so frustrating that Google hasn't
figured out biking stuff better,and I think they just haven't
put the racehorses there, butlike the bike to transit piece
like that.
That's not a routable option onGoogle is just ridiculous,
cause it's.
It's mostly how I get aroundnow if I'm biking somewhere, and
yeah, but there's no way tosort of figure it out with the
transit connections.
(08:56):
Yeah, that is frustrating.
I have to say.
the transit app I've become afan of it doesn't always have
all the data on local transitschedules as much as Google does
in parts of our state, but forSeattle it's pretty good.
Stephanie Rouse (09:13):
So in the chapter on what non-drivers need
, you talk about ADA transitionplans, but that many of these
lack minimum requirements andthere's really no accountability
for making them do that.
Minimum requirements andthere's really no accountability
for making them do that.
I know in our community there'ssome funding concerns with the
newly adapted PROAG the PublicRight-of-Way Accessibility
Guidelines forNon-Transportation Listeners
(09:37):
because it has so much moreforce behind it than the last
version.
It seems hopeful that there'llbe a lot of meaningful upgrades
in our public right-of-way as aresult.
Do you agree or what do youthink about the latest PROAG?
Anna Zivarts (09:45):
I'm excited that it finally got passed and it's
you know, it's there I wasactually.
You know it's funny because Iwas actually just working on a
new op-ed this morning aroundADA transition plans and we've
been lucky in that we've had avery proactive and supportive
state DOT who last September putout notice to all the local
(10:05):
jurisdictions that they passthrough federal funding to that
those local jurisdictions aregoing to are required were
required by January 1st, tosubmit transition plans to the
state DOT for evaluation to makesure they met minimum
requirements.
They don't, they're not goingto be eligible for for federal
funding.
So I'm hoping I was actuallyjust put an email out to our
(10:25):
state DOT to check in about whatpercentage of the local
jurisdictions have submittedthose plans and have met the
requirements.
But you know, many state DOTsaren't doing that and there are
many communities that don't havethese transition plans or they
don't have the data right.
Going back to the data question, they actually don't know where
they're missing curb ramps orwhere their curb ramps are not
compliant.
(10:45):
And with the PROAG updates, Ithink there's going to be a lot
more work to do too withupdating all of this.
Jennifer Hiatt (10:52):
So I was surprised to learn the ADA
assessments for pedestrianenvironments don't look at
things like sidewalk slope,minimum effective width or even
like lighting for theenvironment.
And why do you think there aresuch glaring gaps in the ADA
requirements?
Like that's the whole point ofthe ADA, to my understanding,
and how do we fix that?
Anna Zivarts (11:11):
Yeah, I mean.
So I am not an attorney and notan ADA compliance specialist,
so I like to preface everythingI say by that, because I you
know.
Part of that is because I thinkthat, while the ADA has helped
us in many ways make ourenvironments and our communities
, our institutions, moreaccessible, there's a lot that
it just doesn't cover, and youknow part from when the era in
which it was written, andpartially because standards
(11:34):
evolve, best practices evolveand these things are expensive
and people didn't want them tobe included Like you think about
.
You know how cab companies gotcarve outs around ADA
accessibility when the ADApassed and now how that's
impacted the accessibility ofride hail and potentially the
accessibility of robo-taxis.
That comes down to theindustries getting carve-outs.
(11:54):
I think there's lots of otherways we can create change,
though, outside of that sort oflegal enforcement.
It's up to us to do theorganizing and create the
political pressure to demandchange, because, at the end of
the day, like these changes thatwe need are so expensive that
it's going to take thatpolitical will to fund them.
Stephanie Rouse (12:13):
At least locally here in Lincoln, that's
been really successful is whenfederal funding has ADA
requirements tied to it.
So we're getting a lot of busstop upgrades because a certain
percentage of our transitagencies funding has to be used
towards ADA accessibilityupgrades.
And then, anytime we have afederal road project, we always
are upgrading all of the curbramps and any really bad
(12:34):
sidewalks that are adjacent tothat roadway to meet ADA
standards.
I'd like to think we would doit anyways, but I know that a
big piece of that is the federalfunding requirements that we
have.
Anna Zivarts (12:51):
Yeah, no, and I think we could be doing that
with all the pass-throughdollars right, both federal and,
if you have a state where it'spossible to have the state make
requirements around completestreets, for example, and
funding that they give to localprojects, right, that it's
possible to create morepedestrian-friendly environments
, more accessible environments.
But I think the other flip sideof that is and something that
we've run into a lot here inWashington state is okay, fine,
(13:11):
you have this like eight lanehighway and you have lovely
sidewalks with lovely ADAcompliant curb ramps, but it's
still this awful pedestrianenvironment because of the noise
, because of the high speedtraffic, because of the inherent
risk of crossing in thatsituation or just being hit by a
car that leaves the roadway.
And so I think if we reallywant to talk about accessibility
, we have to talk about reducingvehicle miles traveled and
(13:35):
reducing those environmentswhere we have a lot of high
speed, high volume cars, so thatwe create less car dependent
communities.
Jennifer Hiatt (13:43):
So one of my favorite comments in
transportation planning whichI'm not a transportation planner
, so I'm Stephanie is educatingme, but we talk about cars
leaving the roadway like theyweren't driven off of the road.
Yes, they have, they have.
No, no, whatever, they justleft the roadway.
Yeah somebody drove them offthe road.
That was an action.
Anna Zivarts (14:03):
I think there's two sides of that, though, right
, because it's like you know.
There's the like okay, thedrivers are sure the drivers are
doing dangerous things, butalso we like systemically design
these roads for cars to goreally fast, right?
So it's both Absolutely.
Jennifer Hiatt (14:26):
It is both Absolutely.
And speaking of expensive.
Another challenge to identifyis sidewalk maintenance.
Most cities take the positionthat sidewalk maintenance is the
property owner's responsibilityLincoln, ironically for repairs
not necessarily like snowscooping and whatever, but for
repairing it's supposed to bethe city's responsibility, but
we have no money to do it.
This is generally a problembecause people really aren't
proactive about their sidewalkmaintenance.
What other models for sidewalkmaintenance have you come across
or think are good models thatcities could implement?
Anna Zivarts (14:51):
I mean, this one's so tricky because it comes down
to funding, right, and if thecity doesn't have funding to
just fully be responsible for it, then how do you transition to
that system?
I know Denver right passed abig transportation levy but then
everything got more expensiveand so then they had to sort of
reevaluate the assessments andextend the timeline for when
their sidewalk network was goingto be complete and repaired
pretty dramatically.
In Seattle we have hugeproblems.
(15:12):
It is the individual propertyowner's responsibility.
But there's equity implications, right, if you're saying, okay,
this homeowner, who's a retiree, doesn't have any income to do
this, and then has this gianttree root uplift situation that
they are responsible for payingfor.
So I like the idea.
I think Oakland and some otherplaces have tried with liens put
(15:33):
on the property and then whenthe property is sold, that
funding is collected and so as away to get some funding but
without having to put people ina hard spot in the short term.
But you know that's morecomplicated.
I guess in my dream world itwould be you know, something
that the city is responsible for, but I guess you've seen in
Lincoln that it's not right thatthere's.
(15:55):
If there's not the funding todo that, then it just doesn't
happen and it's not beingprioritized.
So I think you know what we seejust sort of broadly
maintenance of our all ourroadway systems is a problem
where we're continuing to expandhighway capacity and fund new
sorts of infrastructure projectsto expand capacity, without
having the funding really tomaintain and repair what we need
(16:16):
to to keep the existing systemrunning.
And I just want us to keep onthinking that the sidewalks are
part of that existing system andpart of what we should be
calculating when we think aboutthat upkeep and that backlog of
maintenance.
Stephanie Rouse (16:29):
And one issue that we have here with new
sidewalk construction is that iswhat with single family or
residential subdivisions is thesidewalk gets put in when the
house gets put in and it is partof their fees when they do that
.
So if you have, like, a housethat doesn't get put in for 10
years, it's like the last in thesubdivision you'll have a break
in the sidewalk network.
Or we have a lot of olderneighborhoods where the lot
(16:50):
never developed, so thesidewalks go along and then all
of a sudden disappear andbecause no one developed it, it
never got put in and the citydoesn't pay to put those in.
And then you get the wholeissue of homeowners that don't
want sidewalks in front of theirhomes if they weren't there to
begin with because they don'twant to maintain those sidewalks
or plow the snow or anythinglike that.
So it's always so many issueswith what seems to be a super
(17:13):
simple concept.
Anna Zivarts (17:15):
Oh, it's interesting.
We have a lot of streets inSeattle that don't have
sidewalks at all and you know,people then use that space for
car parking and so when it's notthat, cars couldn't still be
parked on the streets if theybuilt the sidewalks, but then
the roadway would be narrowerand cause slower traffic, which
is my street is lucky, and it'sactually kind of unique to
Seattle.
I haven't seen this a lot ofother places where they're like
(17:37):
de facto one way streets becauseof street parking and so cars
really have to slow down becauseyou're always are going to be
encountering another car comingthe other direction and have to
kind of pull into an open spotto let that other car pass.
So it's beautiful sort ofnatural traffic calming, but it
can only happen if the sidewalksget built out and the street
gets narrowed by cars parking onboth sides.
Jennifer Hiatt (17:58):
So yeah, my street here in Lincoln is like
that too.
If cars are parked it's just aone way, and my parents are from
a rural area and they come inthere no-transcript.
Anna Zivarts (18:15):
Great, or just.
You know we're home a lot withtheir cars, and then, as people
started going back into theoffice, the cars were all gone
during the day and I noticed,you know, cars going through
much more quickly, and so wehave this thing called chip drop
.
There's so many trees in ourarea and people you know need
trees trimmed or taken downbecause they've fallen down, and
so arborists will go around andthey'll have these trucks full
(18:37):
of wood chips that are free,that they're just trying to get
rid of, and so you could put inthis request through this app to
get free loads of wood chipsand logs.
Whenever the traffic gets toomuch on our street, I'll put one
in front of our house astraffic calming, because it acts
like a car that I don't have tobe able to slow down cars a
little bit and force them toyield.
That's genius, it's great.
(18:58):
I don't know how many citiesthis exists in and you need a
lot of trees to make it work,but it is brilliant.
Stephanie Rouse (19:05):
So we just interviewed Gray Ennis on his
book Dark PR, which is all aboutindustry framing and how it's
counterproductive to positivechange, and in it he talked
about real change coming fromorganized coalitions fighting at
the top level, and you saysomething similar about needing
to build a big enough coalitionto demand change.
How can advocates either startor plug into this type of work?
(19:26):
As it relates to transportationadvocacy?
Anna Zivarts (19:30):
I mean what I'm excited about is the potential
to bring in some of thedisability community into active
transportation and transitorganizing, because I think
often disabled advocates areseparate or separated or doing
other things and while theseissues are super important to us
, we may not be connected to,say, a transit or biking or
(19:50):
walking or safe streets or, youknow, safe routes to school sort
of advocacy spaces, and so howdo you bring those connections
together?
And that's been exciting workfor me and part of the work that
has happened has been throughthis Week Without Driving
Challenge that we initiallylaunched here in Washington
state.
It's gone four years now.
Two years ago we partnered withAmerica Walks to be able to
(20:13):
allow it to grow nationally andAmerica Walks has really taken
it and run with it and last yearwe had participants in all 50
states through that partnershipand that's a way for local
groups who want to highlightwhat it's like in their
communities to get aroundwithout driving can partner with
disabled folks, disabledorganizations, to highlight
those experiences and bring themforward and educate elected
(20:36):
leaders and other decisionmakers about the gaps in the
system.
You know where that bus doesn'trun, what happens when it stops
running at 5 or 6 pm onSaturday nights?
How do you get home from dinner?
how do you get somewhere onSunday if there's not Sunday
service or if the sidewalksaren't plowed, or you know
there's no lights and you'retrying to get across the street
to a bus stop in the dark withyour kids, Like all these
(20:57):
experiences that those of us whocan't drive have all the time
but people who have that optionto drive may not realize, and so
that's been part of thatcoalition building have that
option to drive may not realize,and so that's been part of that
coalition building.
Jennifer Hiatt (21:13):
One of the examples that you highlight is
the city of Bellingham's successwith reconfiguring the way that
they measured the movement ofpeople, which I never really
thought about.
So can you explain what theydid and why you felt that was a
good example?
Anna Zivarts (21:22):
Sure, yeah, I met Chris Como, who's a planner with
the city of Bellingham for along time and now works as a
consultant.
But you know they were having alot of growth.
A lot of Washington state hashad a lot of growth and you know
a lot new people coming in andpressure right to continue to
expand their street widths andtheir street capacity because
(21:42):
there was traffic and he wasreally, I think, instrumental in
helping folks there think aboutwell, okay, traffic can be a
good thing, because we, you know, we want it to be safe to walk
and roll around our communitiesand traffic slows things down a
little bit.
And also traffic means, you know, that we're a vibrant community
, that people want to be hereand with that vibrancy, you know
(22:02):
it's okay if it takes you alittle longer at rush hour to
get through town.
But that, I think, is somethingthat we've struggled with a lot
in Washington state and, Ithink, a lot of places in the
West where people sort of cameand they weren't very densely
populated, they weren't bigcities yet, and then, as growth
has happened and we've hadincredible population growth and
incredible wealth growth, allof that change has really been
(22:25):
challenging for folks to acceptthat we are transitioning from
small towns and smallercommunities into large cities
and we need to prepare to getaround differently and to be in
a sort of a different, adifferent built environment
because we have grown so much.
Jennifer Hiatt (22:39):
You know they were like well, everybody should
be considered.
Traffic and how everybody movesis important, and like isn't
that the worst duh moment thatevery planner should have?
But I don't think enoughplanners have had that yet.
Anna Zivarts (22:52):
Oh my gosh, I know right, and we are a very
tech-friendly town.
Here in Seattle, I was justblue sky.
What are we calling it Bleedingyesterday about?
Our mayor was quoted in thisarticle in the tech media about
how Amazon has required everyoneto go back to work five days a
week and everyone's reallyworried about what that's going
(23:13):
to do for traffic volumes in ourcity, and he was like, well, AI
is going to solve it and itjust.
You know, I think this idea thatAI and the AI he was referring
to was our intelligent trafficsignals that you know, can only
count people moving in vehicles.
They don't have a way ofmeasuring people moving outside
of vehicles yet, based on cellphone signals and the movement
(23:34):
of them in cars, but it doesn'twork if you're not in a car with
you know your pace, and so,yeah, just that, yeah, we can
have this whole system basedaround moving cars and
increasing, you know, theirvehicle throughput, and that's
what we're going to measure assuccess.
As a city, even a city withvery explicit goals around
climate and vehicle miles,travel reductions and Vision
(23:56):
Zero we're still going to spenda lot of money on these
intelligent traffic signals thatjust value car throughput.
Stephanie Rouse (24:04):
And the reliance on AI to fix everything
or things like EVs are going tobe the solution to everything.
It doesn't change anythingabout how the current system is
operating, and it's clearly notoperating well when there's just
a rise, a crazy amount of riseand deaths of pedestrian and
bicyclists year over year.
Anna Zivarts (24:22):
Yeah, no, and part of that is like not counting
right, like not valuing peopleoutside of cars as people who
need to go places, and that goesback to that, I think, what we
were talking about at thebeginning with non-drivers, and
just like counting non-driversas people who have valid
mobility needs.
And I guess I don't know if youwant to get like all dark, but
someone I know, an advocate herein Washington state, who is low
(24:44):
vision, like I am, was crossinga street in December with a
friend of his haven't seen, youknow, the police reports yet,
but a driver almost hit them.
They got in an argument withthe driver.
The driver got out andassaulted my friend and my
friend then died as a result ofthose injuries and it just it
makes me so angry and itparticularly makes me angry and
(25:06):
that the devaluing of people whoare moving outside of vehicles
like that they don't have aright to be on the street feels,
feels really hard.
Oh, it's just been on my mind.
On my mind.
Stephanie Rouse (25:17):
Yeah, no, I totally understand the amount of
times that biking with trafficand a car gets too close or gets
aggressive, and just how angryit makes me that they don't
value the lives of people aroundthem.
They don't understand the risksthat everyone else outside of a
vehicle takes.
It's just, it baffles me.
I think one of the moreimpactful ways to make change is
(25:38):
getting elected officials onboard and getting them to
understand why we need to makechange, because we can ask for
better infrastructure all daylong or try and implement
complete streets programs, butit really comes down to local
elected officials, which is whyI thought the Week Without
Driving campaign is so impactfuland it seems to have been
successful in the communitieswhere they've gotten their
(25:59):
elected leaders to try this outfor an entire week, because they
understand what's going on.
How have communities been ableto convince their officials to
participate in these kind ofactivities?
Anna Zivarts (26:09):
Yeah, I mean it's a lift right for a lot of
electeds because so many of ourcommunities are so car dependent
and you know even our electedshere that participated the very
first year, I think you know wewent to the people who were
already sort of you know thetransit supporters and the bike
folks and even they.
There's a council member, hername's Claudia Balducci, here in
King County and sheparticipated the first year and
(26:30):
I think her takeaway was wow,like I actually thought I could
totally do this and it would beeasy.
But I am used to when there's atrip that's inconvenient or a
dark, or I have to take my kidssomewhere on the weekend with
soccer equipment, like that,those sorts of trips she would
drive and she said to actuallydo all her trips for the week
was eye-opening and I think sothat that piece I think is
really valuable for folks whoare already our allies, to get
(26:53):
them to understand that it's notjust the easy trips, that there
are people in their communitiesthat need to do this for all
trips and it's those, you know,marginal trips that aren't so
easy or fun or comfortable thatwe need to be figuring out.
The other piece that's beensurprising and I think
encouraging for me with this isthe places where we've had
elected leaders join us whoperhaps aren't already allies,
(27:15):
and a lot of the times that'sbecause they have a family
member who is a non-driver, whois disabled or can't drive for
other reasons, and so arealready sort of empathetic and
sympathetic to what we're asking.
And so that's been, I think, anend to places where people
don't see themselves as, likeyou know, part of the bike lobby
.
I'm particularly excited abouthow we expand that sort of
(27:37):
outreach and really deepen someof the connections with
disability organizations thathaven't seen themselves in sort
of this advocacy space beforeperhaps, but this is a way, a
way in and a way for disabledcommunity members to build
relationships with electedleaders.
Jennifer Hiatt (27:53):
Another way to have change occur is to change
how we're educating peoplethroughout this.
But I know I didn't really havehardly a transportation class
and certainly it didn't focus ondisability mobility at all.
Stephanie, I don't know if youhad anything, nope.
Stephanie Rouse (28:08):
It was an elected and I did not elect to
be a transportation planner backthen.
It's fair.
Jennifer Hiatt (28:13):
So why do you think urban planning and
engineering schools have so farfailed to consider this kind of
accessibility?
I mean, we talk aboutwalkability all the time, but
schools don't seem to be makingthe connection.
So how can we help thoseschools bridge that gap?
Oh my gosh.
Anna Zivarts (28:27):
I mean, I do feel like part of this comes down to
like valuing non-drivers and,first of all, recognizing that
non-drivers exist and like Ithink there's this notion okay,
they exist, but their childrenare old people and those people
are just in this like liminalstate.
They're only going to be there.
Young people are very oldpeople for a very little time
and so therefore, we can writethem off and actually
recognizing right that there'salways a lot of young people.
(28:49):
There's always a lot of peoplein our communities that have
aged out of driving, and thereare also people for whom you
know, like myself, who willnever drive, with disabilities,
or people who really can'tafford to, and maybe there's
this aspirational idea thatthey're going to be able to
afford a car, but that may ormay not be the case anytime soon
.
And so, rather than sort ofprojecting this driving this on
everyone, let's really recognizethat it's not working very well
(29:11):
for so many people.
And then there's other peoplewho would prefer not to and
choose not to, if they can setup their lives in a way that
they don't have to drive so much.
So I feel like it comes back tothat like valuing non drivers,
and I think you know, when Italk to audiences in particular
like engineers or folks who workin DOTs, the biggest pushback I
get is around this like butthere can't actually be that
(29:33):
many drivers right, like you'remaking this up like this is not
real, and I think that isbecause it challenges this
notion that we've designed thissystem.
You know that works really wellfor driving and is failing a
lot of other people.
So I think that that's sort ofthe heart of why it's it's not
taught.
Jennifer Hiatt (29:49):
Well, and I think that that's.
It's so interesting that wedon't value that, because
disability is technically theone box that, like almost anyone
, could potentially enter at anypoint in their life.
You don't know what is going tohappen.
You could end up in that spacewhere you're perfectly fine fine
in quotation marks and then youhave to learn how to navigate a
new normal, and that numbercould just always be expanding.
(30:09):
So why would we devalue whatwould be?
A large population Doesn't makesense.
Anna Zivarts (30:13):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much fear about that
happening, right, people don'twant to think about it and you
know, having had theopportunities to talk to some
folks who recently lost theability to drive or have had
their licenses suspended formedical reasons, there is so
much anger, right, when, when ithappens and when that's not
what you're expecting your lifeto have happen to you.
And so, yeah, I mean, I thinkthere's also a bit of like
(30:35):
plugging the ears and you know,la, la, la la.
Like, you know, I don't want toknow, I don't want to think
about this, because if it was tohappen to me, my life, the way
it's set up right now, would beso disrupted.
Jennifer Hiatt (30:47):
Well, in conclusion, while we would
recommend everybody pick up acopy of your book and read
through it because it's so eyeopening, what are other books
that you would recommend ourreaders check out?
Anna Zivarts (30:57):
Yeah, I love this question.
When you said it to me, I waslike oh my gosh, I'm gonna have
to because I've been reading alot lately.
And part of it's that I'm reallyinterested in sort of
understanding more about otherlow vision and blind authors.
Yeah.
And so that led me to a bookcalled Exploding the Phone by
Phil Lapsley.
It's not a new book but it'sabout phone hacking and a lot of
(31:18):
blind folks involved.
But these sort of virtualcommunities in the beginning of
what is sort of the web in manyways, I thought was super
interesting.
And then the other book Iwanted to recommend, and this is
a bit more- sort of standardplanner.
Bartering with the Bones oftheir Dead by Laurie Arnold, and
(31:40):
this one is from Washingtonstate but I think could be and
should be really interesting tofolks nationally.
Laurie Arnold's part of theColville tribe and this is about
sort of the history of thattribe.
They're in Northeast Washingtonstate a huge part of our state
actually, and tribal politicsand, yeah, trying to make
decisions about tribalgovernance, which I've been
(32:01):
super interested in governancequestions lately in the context
of transit.
But this, yeah, this one wasjust, you know, not a history
that I had learned about growingup here in Washington.
Stephanie Rouse (32:13):
State and I think something that is well
worth a read.
I always love when our authorsgive us some kind of on the
edges of planning books, becauseI think it really helps expand
your understanding or yourknowledge within the subject and
gives you a better context.
Anna Zivarts (32:24):
Yeah, I wanted to give you some stuff that you
know isn't just the latest.
I mean, I love all my otherIsland Press authors and there's
lots of good stuff, but I feellike everybody hears about those
books already, so here's somesome different ones Exactly.
Jennifer Hiatt (32:35):
We promise we are covering the Island Press
books.
They are great.
They are great books.
Anna Zivarts (32:40):
Island Press is wonderful, I have to say.
It's been just wonderful towork with a nonprofit press too
that really is mission drivenand has made it possible for me
to get out there and get theword out and really help share
the book.
And you know, it's not allabout the bottom line.
So that's, that's great.
Stephanie Rouse (32:54):
Well, anna, thank you so much for joining us
today to talk about your book.
When driving is not an optionsteering away from car
dependency.
Anna Zivarts (33:01):
Thank you guys.
Thanks for the wonderfulinterview and take care.
Jennifer Hiatt (33:06):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation with
Anna Zivart about her book whenDriving is Not an Option
Steering Away from CarDependency.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at Island
Press, or click the link in ourshow notes to take you directly
to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts, and please rate,review and share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
Booked on Planning, thank you.
This episode is brought to you by Marvin
Planning Consultants.
Marvin Planning Consultants,established in 2009, is
committed to their clients andprofessional organizations.
Their team of planners hasserved on chapter division and
national committees, includingas the Nebraska Chapter
President.
In addition, they are committedto supporting their chapter in
various APA divisions.
You're listening to the bookedon planning podcast, a project
(00:34):
of the nebraska chapter of theamerican planning association.
In each episode, we dive intohow cities function by talking
with authors on housing,transportation and everything in
between.
Join us as we get Booked OnPlanning.
Welcome back, bookworms, toanother episode of Booked On
(00:59):
Planning.
In this episode, we talk withAnna Zivarts about her book when
Driving Is Not An OptionSteering Away From Car
Dependency.
This was just one of many greattransportation books published
by Island Press last year thatwe were able to cover on the
show.
We tied into a lot of theconcepts that are in those other
books as well, like buildingsafe, accessible streets and
valuing moving people overmoving cars, and Anna mentions a
(01:20):
focus to try to tie indisability advocate groups into
the work of transportationadvocacy working towards better
built streets.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:28):
It was such an eye-opening book I'd like to try
to do the week without drivingchallenge with some of Lincoln's
city leaders.
The conversation really made methink about how car dependent I
am and how much harder thingswould be if I couldn't just hop
in my car.
Stephanie Rouse (01:40):
What really stuck with me in this episode
was finding a way to valuepeople outside a car as people
who need to get places.
Jennifer Hiatt (01:46):
It seems so glaringly obvious that we would
plan this way, but we don't, andthe number of non-drivers is
higher than you might think whenyou think about children,
elderly, disabled people.
So let's get into ourconversation with author Anna
Zivarts about her book whenDriving is Not an Option
Steering Away from CarDependency.
Stephanie Rouse (02:06):
Anna, welcome to the Bookdown Planning Podcast
.
We're happy to have you on totalk about your book when
Driving is Not an OptionSteering Away from Car
Dependency.
Can you start off by talkingabout what spurred you to write
this book?
Anna Zivarts (02:20):
Yeah, hi, thanks for having me.
So this book comes both out ofmy personal experience and then
work I got to do at DisabilityRights Washington, which is
where I work now.
But I was born with an eyecondition called nystagmus, and
it's a neurological condition.
It makes my eyes shake all thetime when I'm conscious, and
they don't really know totallywhy it does that, what causes it
(02:42):
, but it reduces my visualacuity and so I do not see well
enough to drive a car, amongother things, and so that's
really shaped the direction ofmy life in many ways, both in
you know where I can live, whereI choose to live, and the kind
of work I do, and the work I doconnected to the disability
community.
Stephanie Rouse (03:02):
And in the introduction of the book you
point out that a third of peoplein the US can't drive, and this
population includes people whoare disabled, can't afford to
drive, are minority, immigrant,seniors and youth, and it's
often challenging to get a goodcount on this population, but
it's the first step in valuingthe needs of non-drivers.
How have you been able tosuccessfully account for this
(03:23):
population and the work thatyou've done?
How have you been able?
Anna Zivarts (03:25):
to successfully account for this population and
the work that you've done.
So this started from me growingup in a semi-rural part of
Washington state and feelinglike when I turned 16 and I
couldn't get my driver's license, I was the only one right.
I didn't really know otheradults who didn't drive, or I
didn't think I did.
And then I moved to New YorkCity after college and it felt
so exciting for it to be totallynormalized, not to have a car
(03:48):
and not to get places drivingyourself, and that was lovely
for me, to be surrounded by somany other transit riders and
people who walked and rolled andbiked, took the subway to get
places, and so when I had a kid,I decided I wanted to move back
closer to family, had theopportunity to move back here to
Washington State, where I amnow, and I remember reaching out
(04:09):
to people here trying to figureout does everyone drive?
Because that was my experiencegrowing up here Is it going to
be possible for me to get aroundwithout driving?
And you know, heard from somefolks who were living here who
were riding bikes and taking thebus that it was possible some
folks who were living here whowere riding bikes and taking the
bus that it was possible.
(04:30):
But it wasn't really until Istarted working at a disability
organization when I met lots ofother disabled folks who didn't
drive and couldn't drive, that Istarted to see, oh my gosh,
there are so many non-driversout there.
And then I started reflectingmore on the work I had done for
many years in New York withlabor unions, with service
worker unions, where many of themembers were low wage
immigrants, lots of low wageimmigrant women who couldn't
afford cars and also didn't havedriver's licenses.
(04:50):
And so I started to think, youknow, gosh, there are so many of
us.
And then you think about kids,you think about people aging out
of driving, and that's sort ofwhen I started to realize that
there was this sort of unseenand unrecognized need for
transportation access thatdidn't involve driving, and it
wasn't just people who wanted tobike places out of sort of you
know, the fun of doing that orthe desire to be environmental.
(05:13):
There were many people whodidn't have that choice.
Stephanie Rouse (05:17):
It's interesting you point out, once
you started looking, you startedseeing all these other people,
because I've noticed that when Istarted paying attention to who
is actually biking year I'vestarted to notice like there are
a lot of people actually outbiking.
The perception is that there'snot people biking for commuting,
but once you start to look yousee that there are plenty of
people out there choosing to dothat or that, have to do that.
Anna Zivarts (05:37):
Exactly right and you start to notice that in all
sorts of ways you know thepeople biking and it's probably
like in my neighborhood.
You know, if you've got a nicefancy e-bike you're going to
take the relaxing like bikeroutes but those are all really
through hilly areas and so ifyou can't afford an e-bike
you're going to be riding thesidewalks on the arterials
because those are much flatter,and every time I'm down there
trying to cross this big gnarlyarterial in my neighborhood I
(06:00):
see people biking out ofnecessity.
Or, you know, when you see thelike paths worn in the shoulder
and the side of busy roads wherethere's no sidewalk, and you're
like okay, a lot of people walkhere and we may not see them
all the time, but clearly thereare people who are using this
part of our infrastructure outof necessity who are not
recognizing as valid users ofthis transportation system or,
(06:22):
you know, rewarding with asystem that really is designed
around their needs.
Jennifer Hiatt (06:27):
And one of the points that you make in the book
that struck me is the apps likeGoogle Earth actually aren't
really all that helpful inplanning out walking and biking
routes, which I would have neverthought of.
So can you explain why that isand what communities can do to
help reduce this gap in datainformation?
Anna Zivarts (06:42):
Oh my, gosh the data gap.
It's huge, right, and it's sofrustrating, you know, because
we've had Google Maps now for along time, but it's really just
based on car routes, and so whenyou take a pedestrian route or
you ask for a pedestrian route,what it's doing is just telling
you you know the car route at aslower speed, and that doesn't
work.
If you need to make sure thatyou have an accessible route,
for example, with curb ramps orwith accessible pedestrian, you
(07:05):
know the audible tactile signalsto get across an intersection,
and so there are folks out theredoing really great data
collection around trying to mapaccessibility and sidewalks, but
it's not universal yet and youknow there's not the expectation
that it's something that ourtransportation departments
collect and maintain the waythey do data about roadways for
(07:27):
cars, and that part, for me, isso frustrating because you know
they could, and it's not likeit's rocket science, like the
technology exists now.
There's lots of different waysto do it, but they're worried
about the liability if they haveall this data that shows
missing sidewalks or missingcurb ramps and someone gets hurt
or someone wants to bring anADA complaint.
They don't want to beresponsible, and so they'd
rather often rather not havethat data which is, then how do
(07:50):
you go out and make a plan tofix the gaps if you don't
actually know where those gapsare?
Stephanie Rouse (07:56):
Yeah, one of the frustrating things as well
is like with our bike network inour downtown core.
There's areas where you're notsupposed to ride on the sidewalk
, but we also have a lot ofone-way streets and most people
rely on Google to map you whereyou're going.
You're not going to look at abike map and say I'm going to
take this route and I triedmercilessly to get Google to
update their routing so theywould stop sending bicyclists
(08:17):
down the wrong way of a one-waywhere they weren't supposed to
be on the sidewalk, and it'sjust like pulling teeth to work
with Google if you have the data, even to get them to update it,
because a lot of people rely onthat versus another separate
app.
Or if they were just trying togo to GIS and on a web-based
website to find a route.
Anna Zivarts (08:36):
Yeah, it is so frustrating that Google hasn't
figured out biking stuff better,and I think they just haven't
put the racehorses there, butlike the bike to transit piece
like that.
That's not a routable option onGoogle is just ridiculous,
cause it's.
It's mostly how I get aroundnow if I'm biking somewhere, and
yeah, but there's no way tosort of figure it out with the
transit connections.
(08:56):
Yeah, that is frustrating.
I have to say.
the transit app I've become afan of it doesn't always have
all the data on local transitschedules as much as Google does
in parts of our state, but forSeattle it's pretty good.
Stephanie Rouse (09:13):
So in the chapter on what non-drivers need
, you talk about ADA transitionplans, but that many of these
lack minimum requirements andthere's really no accountability
for making them do that.
Minimum requirements andthere's really no accountability
for making them do that.
I know in our community there'ssome funding concerns with the
newly adapted PROAG the PublicRight-of-Way Accessibility
Guidelines forNon-Transportation Listeners
(09:37):
because it has so much moreforce behind it than the last
version.
It seems hopeful that there'llbe a lot of meaningful upgrades
in our public right-of-way as aresult.
Do you agree or what do youthink about the latest PROAG?
Anna Zivarts (09:45):
I'm excited that it finally got passed and it's
you know, it's there I wasactually.
You know it's funny because Iwas actually just working on a
new op-ed this morning aroundADA transition plans and we've
been lucky in that we've had avery proactive and supportive
state DOT who last September putout notice to all the local
(10:05):
jurisdictions that they passthrough federal funding to that
those local jurisdictions aregoing to are required were
required by January 1st, tosubmit transition plans to the
state DOT for evaluation to makesure they met minimum
requirements.
They don't, they're not goingto be eligible for for federal
funding.
So I'm hoping I was actuallyjust put an email out to our
(10:25):
state DOT to check in about whatpercentage of the local
jurisdictions have submittedthose plans and have met the
requirements.
But you know, many state DOTsaren't doing that and there are
many communities that don't havethese transition plans or they
don't have the data right.
Going back to the data question, they actually don't know where
they're missing curb ramps orwhere their curb ramps are not
compliant.
(10:45):
And with the PROAG updates, Ithink there's going to be a lot
more work to do too withupdating all of this.
Jennifer Hiatt (10:52):
So I was surprised to learn the ADA
assessments for pedestrianenvironments don't look at
things like sidewalk slope,minimum effective width or even
like lighting for theenvironment.
And why do you think there aresuch glaring gaps in the ADA
requirements?
Like that's the whole point ofthe ADA, to my understanding,
and how do we fix that?
Anna Zivarts (11:11):
Yeah, I mean.
So I am not an attorney and notan ADA compliance specialist,
so I like to preface everythingI say by that, because I you
know.
Part of that is because I thinkthat, while the ADA has helped
us in many ways make ourenvironments and our communities
, our institutions, moreaccessible, there's a lot that
it just doesn't cover, and youknow part from when the era in
which it was written, andpartially because standards
(11:34):
evolve, best practices evolveand these things are expensive
and people didn't want them tobe included Like you think about
.
You know how cab companies gotcarve outs around ADA
accessibility when the ADApassed and now how that's
impacted the accessibility ofride hail and potentially the
accessibility of robo-taxis.
That comes down to theindustries getting carve-outs.
(11:54):
I think there's lots of otherways we can create change,
though, outside of that sort oflegal enforcement.
It's up to us to do theorganizing and create the
political pressure to demandchange, because, at the end of
the day, like these changes thatwe need are so expensive that
it's going to take thatpolitical will to fund them.
Stephanie Rouse (12:13):
At least locally here in Lincoln, that's
been really successful is whenfederal funding has ADA
requirements tied to it.
So we're getting a lot of busstop upgrades because a certain
percentage of our transitagencies funding has to be used
towards ADA accessibilityupgrades.
And then, anytime we have afederal road project, we always
are upgrading all of the curbramps and any really bad
(12:34):
sidewalks that are adjacent tothat roadway to meet ADA
standards.
I'd like to think we would doit anyways, but I know that a
big piece of that is the federalfunding requirements that we
have.
Anna Zivarts (12:51):
Yeah, no, and I think we could be doing that
with all the pass-throughdollars right, both federal and,
if you have a state where it'spossible to have the state make
requirements around completestreets, for example, and
funding that they give to localprojects, right, that it's
possible to create morepedestrian-friendly environments
, more accessible environments.
But I think the other flip sideof that is and something that
we've run into a lot here inWashington state is okay, fine,
(13:11):
you have this like eight lanehighway and you have lovely
sidewalks with lovely ADAcompliant curb ramps, but it's
still this awful pedestrianenvironment because of the noise
, because of the high speedtraffic, because of the inherent
risk of crossing in thatsituation or just being hit by a
car that leaves the roadway.
And so I think if we reallywant to talk about accessibility
, we have to talk about reducingvehicle miles traveled and
(13:35):
reducing those environmentswhere we have a lot of high
speed, high volume cars, so thatwe create less car dependent
communities.
Jennifer Hiatt (13:43):
So one of my favorite comments in
transportation planning whichI'm not a transportation planner
, so I'm Stephanie is educatingme, but we talk about cars
leaving the roadway like theyweren't driven off of the road.
Yes, they have, they have.
No, no, whatever, they justleft the roadway.
Yeah somebody drove them offthe road.
That was an action.
Anna Zivarts (14:03):
I think there's two sides of that, though, right
, because it's like you know.
There's the like okay, thedrivers are sure the drivers are
doing dangerous things, butalso we like systemically design
these roads for cars to goreally fast, right?
So it's both Absolutely.
Jennifer Hiatt (14:26):
It is both Absolutely.
And speaking of expensive.
Another challenge to identifyis sidewalk maintenance.
Most cities take the positionthat sidewalk maintenance is the
property owner's responsibilityLincoln, ironically for repairs
not necessarily like snowscooping and whatever, but for
repairing it's supposed to bethe city's responsibility, but
we have no money to do it.
This is generally a problembecause people really aren't
proactive about their sidewalkmaintenance.
What other models for sidewalkmaintenance have you come across
or think are good models thatcities could implement?
Anna Zivarts (14:51):
I mean, this one's so tricky because it comes down
to funding, right, and if thecity doesn't have funding to
just fully be responsible for it, then how do you transition to
that system?
I know Denver right passed abig transportation levy but then
everything got more expensiveand so then they had to sort of
reevaluate the assessments andextend the timeline for when
their sidewalk network was goingto be complete and repaired
pretty dramatically.
In Seattle we have hugeproblems.
(15:12):
It is the individual propertyowner's responsibility.
But there's equity implications, right, if you're saying, okay,
this homeowner, who's a retiree, doesn't have any income to do
this, and then has this gianttree root uplift situation that
they are responsible for payingfor.
So I like the idea.
I think Oakland and some otherplaces have tried with liens put
(15:33):
on the property and then whenthe property is sold, that
funding is collected and so as away to get some funding but
without having to put people ina hard spot in the short term.
But you know that's morecomplicated.
I guess in my dream world itwould be you know, something
that the city is responsible for, but I guess you've seen in
Lincoln that it's not right thatthere's.
(15:55):
If there's not the funding todo that, then it just doesn't
happen and it's not beingprioritized.
So I think you know what we seejust sort of broadly
maintenance of our all ourroadway systems is a problem
where we're continuing to expandhighway capacity and fund new
sorts of infrastructure projectsto expand capacity, without
having the funding really tomaintain and repair what we need
(16:16):
to to keep the existing systemrunning.
And I just want us to keep onthinking that the sidewalks are
part of that existing system andpart of what we should be
calculating when we think aboutthat upkeep and that backlog of
maintenance.
Stephanie Rouse (16:29):
And one issue that we have here with new
sidewalk construction is that iswhat with single family or
residential subdivisions is thesidewalk gets put in when the
house gets put in and it is partof their fees when they do that
.
So if you have, like, a housethat doesn't get put in for 10
years, it's like the last in thesubdivision you'll have a break
in the sidewalk network.
Or we have a lot of olderneighborhoods where the lot
(16:50):
never developed, so thesidewalks go along and then all
of a sudden disappear andbecause no one developed it, it
never got put in and the citydoesn't pay to put those in.
And then you get the wholeissue of homeowners that don't
want sidewalks in front of theirhomes if they weren't there to
begin with because they don'twant to maintain those sidewalks
or plow the snow or anythinglike that.
So it's always so many issueswith what seems to be a super
(17:13):
simple concept.
Anna Zivarts (17:15):
Oh, it's interesting.
We have a lot of streets inSeattle that don't have
sidewalks at all and you know,people then use that space for
car parking and so when it's notthat, cars couldn't still be
parked on the streets if theybuilt the sidewalks, but then
the roadway would be narrowerand cause slower traffic, which
is my street is lucky, and it'sactually kind of unique to
Seattle.
I haven't seen this a lot ofother places where they're like
(17:37):
de facto one way streets becauseof street parking and so cars
really have to slow down becauseyou're always are going to be
encountering another car comingthe other direction and have to
kind of pull into an open spotto let that other car pass.
So it's beautiful sort ofnatural traffic calming, but it
can only happen if the sidewalksget built out and the street
gets narrowed by cars parking onboth sides.
Jennifer Hiatt (17:58):
So yeah, my street here in Lincoln is like
that too.
If cars are parked it's just aone way, and my parents are from
a rural area and they come inthere no-transcript.
Anna Zivarts (18:15):
Great, or just.
You know we're home a lot withtheir cars, and then, as people
started going back into theoffice, the cars were all gone
during the day and I noticed,you know, cars going through
much more quickly, and so wehave this thing called chip drop
.
There's so many trees in ourarea and people you know need
trees trimmed or taken downbecause they've fallen down, and
so arborists will go around andthey'll have these trucks full
(18:37):
of wood chips that are free,that they're just trying to get
rid of, and so you could put inthis request through this app to
get free loads of wood chipsand logs.
Whenever the traffic gets toomuch on our street, I'll put one
in front of our house astraffic calming, because it acts
like a car that I don't have tobe able to slow down cars a
little bit and force them toyield.
That's genius, it's great.
(18:58):
I don't know how many citiesthis exists in and you need a
lot of trees to make it work,but it is brilliant.
Stephanie Rouse (19:05):
So we just interviewed Gray Ennis on his
book Dark PR, which is all aboutindustry framing and how it's
counterproductive to positivechange, and in it he talked
about real change coming fromorganized coalitions fighting at
the top level, and you saysomething similar about needing
to build a big enough coalitionto demand change.
How can advocates either startor plug into this type of work?
(19:26):
As it relates to transportationadvocacy?
Anna Zivarts (19:30):
I mean what I'm excited about is the potential
to bring in some of thedisability community into active
transportation and transitorganizing, because I think
often disabled advocates areseparate or separated or doing
other things and while theseissues are super important to us
, we may not be connected to,say, a transit or biking or
(19:50):
walking or safe streets or, youknow, safe routes to school sort
of advocacy spaces, and so howdo you bring those connections
together?
And that's been exciting workfor me and part of the work that
has happened has been throughthis Week Without Driving
Challenge that we initiallylaunched here in Washington
state.
It's gone four years now.
Two years ago we partnered withAmerica Walks to be able to
(20:13):
allow it to grow nationally andAmerica Walks has really taken
it and run with it and last yearwe had participants in all 50
states through that partnershipand that's a way for local
groups who want to highlightwhat it's like in their
communities to get aroundwithout driving can partner with
disabled folks, disabledorganizations, to highlight
those experiences and bring themforward and educate elected
(20:36):
leaders and other decisionmakers about the gaps in the
system.
You know where that bus doesn'trun, what happens when it stops
running at 5 or 6 pm onSaturday nights?
How do you get home from dinner?
how do you get somewhere onSunday if there's not Sunday
service or if the sidewalksaren't plowed, or you know
there's no lights and you'retrying to get across the street
to a bus stop in the dark withyour kids, Like all these
(20:57):
experiences that those of us whocan't drive have all the time
but people who have that optionto drive may not realize, and so
that's been part of thatcoalition building have that
option to drive may not realize,and so that's been part of that
coalition building.
Jennifer Hiatt (21:13):
One of the examples that you highlight is
the city of Bellingham's successwith reconfiguring the way that
they measured the movement ofpeople, which I never really
thought about.
So can you explain what theydid and why you felt that was a
good example?
Anna Zivarts (21:22):
Sure, yeah, I met Chris Como, who's a planner with
the city of Bellingham for along time and now works as a
consultant.
But you know they were having alot of growth.
A lot of Washington state hashad a lot of growth and you know
a lot new people coming in andpressure right to continue to
expand their street widths andtheir street capacity because
(21:42):
there was traffic and he wasreally, I think, instrumental in
helping folks there think aboutwell, okay, traffic can be a
good thing, because we, you know, we want it to be safe to walk
and roll around our communitiesand traffic slows things down a
little bit.
And also traffic means, you know, that we're a vibrant community
, that people want to be hereand with that vibrancy, you know
(22:02):
it's okay if it takes you alittle longer at rush hour to
get through town.
But that, I think, is somethingthat we've struggled with a lot
in Washington state and, Ithink, a lot of places in the
West where people sort of cameand they weren't very densely
populated, they weren't bigcities yet, and then, as growth
has happened and we've hadincredible population growth and
incredible wealth growth, allof that change has really been
(22:25):
challenging for folks to acceptthat we are transitioning from
small towns and smallercommunities into large cities
and we need to prepare to getaround differently and to be in
a sort of a different, adifferent built environment
because we have grown so much.
Jennifer Hiatt (22:39):
You know they were like well, everybody should
be considered.
Traffic and how everybody movesis important, and like isn't
that the worst duh moment thatevery planner should have?
But I don't think enoughplanners have had that yet.
Anna Zivarts (22:52):
Oh my gosh, I know right, and we are a very
tech-friendly town.
Here in Seattle, I was justblue sky.
What are we calling it Bleedingyesterday about?
Our mayor was quoted in thisarticle in the tech media about
how Amazon has required everyoneto go back to work five days a
week and everyone's reallyworried about what that's going
(23:13):
to do for traffic volumes in ourcity, and he was like, well, AI
is going to solve it and itjust.
You know, I think this idea thatAI and the AI he was referring
to was our intelligent trafficsignals that you know, can only
count people moving in vehicles.
They don't have a way ofmeasuring people moving outside
of vehicles yet, based on cellphone signals and the movement
(23:34):
of them in cars, but it doesn'twork if you're not in a car with
you know your pace, and so,yeah, just that, yeah, we can
have this whole system basedaround moving cars and
increasing, you know, theirvehicle throughput, and that's
what we're going to measure assuccess.
As a city, even a city withvery explicit goals around
climate and vehicle miles,travel reductions and Vision
(23:56):
Zero we're still going to spenda lot of money on these
intelligent traffic signals thatjust value car throughput.
Stephanie Rouse (24:04):
And the reliance on AI to fix everything
or things like EVs are going tobe the solution to everything.
It doesn't change anythingabout how the current system is
operating, and it's clearly notoperating well when there's just
a rise, a crazy amount of riseand deaths of pedestrian and
bicyclists year over year.
Anna Zivarts (24:22):
Yeah, no, and part of that is like not counting
right, like not valuing peopleoutside of cars as people who
need to go places, and that goesback to that, I think, what we
were talking about at thebeginning with non-drivers, and
just like counting non-driversas people who have valid
mobility needs.
And I guess I don't know if youwant to get like all dark, but
someone I know, an advocate herein Washington state, who is low
(24:44):
vision, like I am, was crossinga street in December with a
friend of his haven't seen, youknow, the police reports yet,
but a driver almost hit them.
They got in an argument withthe driver.
The driver got out andassaulted my friend and my
friend then died as a result ofthose injuries and it just it
makes me so angry and itparticularly makes me angry and
(25:06):
that the devaluing of people whoare moving outside of vehicles
like that they don't have aright to be on the street feels,
feels really hard.
Oh, it's just been on my mind.
On my mind.
Stephanie Rouse (25:17):
Yeah, no, I totally understand the amount of
times that biking with trafficand a car gets too close or gets
aggressive, and just how angryit makes me that they don't
value the lives of people aroundthem.
They don't understand the risksthat everyone else outside of a
vehicle takes.
It's just, it baffles me.
I think one of the moreimpactful ways to make change is
(25:38):
getting elected officials onboard and getting them to
understand why we need to makechange, because we can ask for
better infrastructure all daylong or try and implement
complete streets programs, butit really comes down to local
elected officials, which is whyI thought the Week Without
Driving campaign is so impactfuland it seems to have been
successful in the communitieswhere they've gotten their
(25:59):
elected leaders to try this outfor an entire week, because they
understand what's going on.
How have communities been ableto convince their officials to
participate in these kind ofactivities?
Anna Zivarts (26:09):
Yeah, I mean it's a lift right for a lot of
electeds because so many of ourcommunities are so car dependent
and you know even our electedshere that participated the very
first year, I think you know wewent to the people who were
already sort of you know thetransit supporters and the bike
folks and even they.
There's a council member, hername's Claudia Balducci, here in
King County and sheparticipated the first year and
(26:30):
I think her takeaway was wow,like I actually thought I could
totally do this and it would beeasy.
But I am used to when there's atrip that's inconvenient or a
dark, or I have to take my kidssomewhere on the weekend with
soccer equipment, like that,those sorts of trips she would
drive and she said to actuallydo all her trips for the week
was eye-opening and I think sothat that piece I think is
really valuable for folks whoare already our allies, to get
(26:53):
them to understand that it's notjust the easy trips, that there
are people in their communitiesthat need to do this for all
trips and it's those, you know,marginal trips that aren't so
easy or fun or comfortable thatwe need to be figuring out.
The other piece that's beensurprising and I think
encouraging for me with this isthe places where we've had
elected leaders join us whoperhaps aren't already allies,
(27:15):
and a lot of the times that'sbecause they have a family
member who is a non-driver, whois disabled or can't drive for
other reasons, and so arealready sort of empathetic and
sympathetic to what we're asking.
And so that's been, I think, anend to places where people
don't see themselves as, likeyou know, part of the bike lobby
.
I'm particularly excited abouthow we expand that sort of
(27:37):
outreach and really deepen someof the connections with
disability organizations thathaven't seen themselves in sort
of this advocacy space beforeperhaps, but this is a way, a
way in and a way for disabledcommunity members to build
relationships with electedleaders.
Jennifer Hiatt (27:53):
Another way to have change occur is to change
how we're educating peoplethroughout this.
But I know I didn't really havehardly a transportation class
and certainly it didn't focus ondisability mobility at all.
Stephanie, I don't know if youhad anything, nope.
Stephanie Rouse (28:08):
It was an elected and I did not elect to
be a transportation planner backthen.
It's fair.
Jennifer Hiatt (28:13):
So why do you think urban planning and
engineering schools have so farfailed to consider this kind of
accessibility?
I mean, we talk aboutwalkability all the time, but
schools don't seem to be makingthe connection.
So how can we help thoseschools bridge that gap?
Oh my gosh.
Anna Zivarts (28:27):
I mean, I do feel like part of this comes down to
like valuing non-drivers and,first of all, recognizing that
non-drivers exist and like Ithink there's this notion okay,
they exist, but their childrenare old people and those people
are just in this like liminalstate.
They're only going to be there.
Young people are very oldpeople for a very little time
and so therefore, we can writethem off and actually
recognizing right that there'salways a lot of young people.
(28:49):
There's always a lot of peoplein our communities that have
aged out of driving, and thereare also people for whom you
know, like myself, who willnever drive, with disabilities,
or people who really can'tafford to, and maybe there's
this aspirational idea thatthey're going to be able to
afford a car, but that may ormay not be the case anytime soon
.
And so, rather than sort ofprojecting this driving this on
everyone, let's really recognizethat it's not working very well
(29:11):
for so many people.
And then there's other peoplewho would prefer not to and
choose not to, if they can setup their lives in a way that
they don't have to drive so much.
So I feel like it comes back tothat like valuing non drivers,
and I think you know, when Italk to audiences in particular
like engineers or folks who workin DOTs, the biggest pushback I
get is around this like butthere can't actually be that
(29:33):
many drivers right, like you'remaking this up like this is not
real, and I think that isbecause it challenges this
notion that we've designed thissystem.
You know that works really wellfor driving and is failing a
lot of other people.
So I think that that's sort ofthe heart of why it's it's not
taught.
Jennifer Hiatt (29:49):
Well, and I think that that's.
It's so interesting that wedon't value that, because
disability is technically theone box that, like almost anyone
, could potentially enter at anypoint in their life.
You don't know what is going tohappen.
You could end up in that spacewhere you're perfectly fine fine
in quotation marks and then youhave to learn how to navigate a
new normal, and that numbercould just always be expanding.
(30:09):
So why would we devalue whatwould be?
A large population Doesn't makesense.
Anna Zivarts (30:13):
Yeah, I mean, there's so much fear about that
happening, right, people don'twant to think about it and you
know, having had theopportunities to talk to some
folks who recently lost theability to drive or have had
their licenses suspended formedical reasons, there is so
much anger, right, when, when ithappens and when that's not
what you're expecting your lifeto have happen to you.
And so, yeah, I mean, I thinkthere's also a bit of like
(30:35):
plugging the ears and you know,la, la, la la.
Like, you know, I don't want toknow, I don't want to think
about this, because if it was tohappen to me, my life, the way
it's set up right now, would beso disrupted.
Jennifer Hiatt (30:47):
Well, in conclusion, while we would
recommend everybody pick up acopy of your book and read
through it because it's so eyeopening, what are other books
that you would recommend ourreaders check out?
Anna Zivarts (30:57):
Yeah, I love this question.
When you said it to me, I waslike oh my gosh, I'm gonna have
to because I've been reading alot lately.
And part of it's that I'm reallyinterested in sort of
understanding more about otherlow vision and blind authors.
Yeah.
And so that led me to a bookcalled Exploding the Phone by
Phil Lapsley.
It's not a new book but it'sabout phone hacking and a lot of
(31:18):
blind folks involved.
But these sort of virtualcommunities in the beginning of
what is sort of the web in manyways, I thought was super
interesting.
And then the other book Iwanted to recommend, and this is
a bit more- sort of standardplanner.
Bartering with the Bones oftheir Dead by Laurie Arnold, and
(31:40):
this one is from Washingtonstate but I think could be and
should be really interesting tofolks nationally.
Laurie Arnold's part of theColville tribe and this is about
sort of the history of thattribe.
They're in Northeast Washingtonstate a huge part of our state
actually, and tribal politicsand, yeah, trying to make
decisions about tribalgovernance, which I've been
(32:01):
super interested in governancequestions lately in the context
of transit.
But this, yeah, this one wasjust, you know, not a history
that I had learned about growingup here in Washington.
Stephanie Rouse (32:13):
State and I think something that is well
worth a read.
I always love when our authorsgive us some kind of on the
edges of planning books, becauseI think it really helps expand
your understanding or yourknowledge within the subject and
gives you a better context.
Anna Zivarts (32:24):
Yeah, I wanted to give you some stuff that you
know isn't just the latest.
I mean, I love all my otherIsland Press authors and there's
lots of good stuff, but I feellike everybody hears about those
books already, so here's somesome different ones Exactly.
Jennifer Hiatt (32:35):
We promise we are covering the Island Press
books.
They are great.
They are great books.
Anna Zivarts (32:40):
Island Press is wonderful, I have to say.
It's been just wonderful towork with a nonprofit press too
that really is mission drivenand has made it possible for me
to get out there and get theword out and really help share
the book.
And you know, it's not allabout the bottom line.
So that's, that's great.
Stephanie Rouse (32:54):
Well, anna, thank you so much for joining us
today to talk about your book.
When driving is not an optionsteering away from car
dependency.
Anna Zivarts (33:01):
Thank you guys.
Thanks for the wonderfulinterview and take care.
Jennifer Hiatt (33:06):
We hope you enjoyed this conversation with
Anna Zivart about her book whenDriving is Not an Option
Steering Away from CarDependency.
You can get your own copythrough the publisher at Island
Press, or click the link in ourshow notes to take you directly
to our affiliate page.
Remember to subscribe to theshow wherever you listen to
podcasts, and please rate,review and share the show.
Thank you for listening andwe'll talk to you next time on
Booked on Planning, thank you.
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