July 29, 2025 • 35 mins
Peptides have become a hot topic in the fitness and recovery world, but what's the truth behind the hype? In this revealing conversation, special guest Marissa Liza, a licensed acupuncturist @allpointsacu who's been taking the peptide BPC-157 for the past month, explores her firsthand experience and the science behind this trending compound.
BPC-157 (Body Protection Compound) is a synthetic peptide derived from a protein found naturally in the stomach. While animal studies suggest promising benefits for tissue repair, inflammation reduction, and even gut health, human clinical research remains limited.
We dig deep into the mechanisms that make BPC-157 potentially valuable for athletes and anyone dealing with nagging injuries – from its ability to stimulate angiogenesis (new blood vessel formation) to its potential role in accelerating recovery. We also discuss important concerns, including its regulatory status, safety considerations, and the quality control issues that come with any unregulated compound.
Whether you're an athlete looking for an edge in recovery, someone dealing with chronic pain, or simply curious about cutting-edge wellness approaches, this conversation offers valuable perspectives on the risk-benefit analysis of peptide therapy.
#BPC157 #Peptides #Recovery #Wellness #FitnessJourney #PerformanceEnhancement #Acupuncture #Healing #Biohacking #HealthAndWellness #BotoxAndBurpees #MedicalPodcast #PlasticSurgery @botoxandburpeespodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Rhee (00:04):
Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees.
I am here with my very specialguest, marissa Liza.
She is a licensed acupuncturistand she is also someone who has
been taking the peptide BPC-157, which is one of the hottest
compounds out there in terms ofrecovery and wellness, and so
(00:24):
we're going to take a little bitof a dive into BPC 157.
We're going to talk about thescientific research, the
background behind it andMarissa's experience with it,
why she takes it and what we cantake away from her experiences
with it.
So let's first talk aboutMarissa Welcome.
Thank you for guesting.
(00:44):
Thank you, sam, and I really,really appreciate you sharing
your experience.
It's so funny because she was atthe gym the other day and she
talked to me and she said, hey,I listened to your creatine one
and you really should do one onBPC, and I was like, yeah, I
really should.
I was thinking about it and Iknow a lot of people that are on
it or are taking it, and so atthat point I was like, well, and
(01:06):
then, about a couple days later, you were like I'm taking it
and I was like, wow, that'scrazy.
I don't know anyone who I wouldactually trust in terms of
their opinion in terms of theiranecdotal experience.
And then I said, okay, wedefinitely have to do this.
Marissa Liza (01:18):
Thank you.
Sam Rhee (01:19):
So just to let you know, marissa Aliza is a
licensed acupuncturist.
Her Instagram handle isallpointsacu.
Her website is allpointsawccom.
Her office is in Rochelle Park.
She's treated so many people atthe gym.
I just had a couple people sayto me that they just saw you.
They loved your care, thank you, and I've had treatment by
(01:44):
Marissa and she's awesome.
So shout out to to yourbusiness your expertise and
you're someone that I wouldreally trust in terms of talking
about BPC 157 thank you.
Marissa Liza (01:57):
Thank you for having me and the kind words.
Yeah, I'm just excited to sortof explore this from all angles
with you so okay.
Sam Rhee (02:05):
So why are people caring about BPC-157?
All right, they say it'sawesome for healing injuries,
reducing inflammation, needingrecovery.
And before I begin, just as areminder, this is not a
substitute for professionalmedical advice, diagnosis or
treatment.
It's for informational purposesonly.
Treatment and results may varybased on circumstances,
situation and medical judgment.
Always seek the advice of yourqualified healthcare provider
(02:27):
with any questions you may have,and never disregard
professional medical advice ordelay seeking advice because of
something in this show.
So BPC-157 stands for bodyprotection compound BPC-157.
It's a sequence of 15 aminoacids, so technically a
pentadecapeptide, and they foundit in the stomach and
(02:49):
scientists isolated it from agastric protein and they
synthesized it.
So it's actually a lab-madepeptide, but it's based on a
natural stomach protein thatthey found that appeared to
protect and heal tissues andthis was something that,
initially, was what piqued yourinterest, right?
Marissa Liza (03:07):
Yes.
So I had heard about itprobably about two or three
months ago.
Another provider had said, hey,I'm taking this and I kind of
honestly didn't really thinkmuch about it.
I was like great, sounds good.
And then I had went to aseminar I needed some CEUs and
there was another provider thereand he was just talking amongst
us it was about eight of us andwe were talking about different
(03:28):
healing modalities anddifferent issues and he says I'm
having really great resultswith BPC-157.
So he's also licensed in Floridaand in Florida it is legal for
acupuncturists to do injectiontherapy.
It's within the scope of theirpractice.
They're not here in New Jersey.
So he said I have beeninjecting it and some of my
patients are having really greatresults with tissue repair,
(03:51):
post-surgical.
So I was like wow, okay.
So it was a part of me, likeokay, this is another somebody
else saying it to me.
I've definitely was heard theanti-inflammatory healing,
athlete side of me like let's go, I want to be able to continue
to perform, you know,athletically well.
So that was sort of the let me,let me try this.
Sam Rhee (04:12):
Right, and you are, and I've known you for years and
you are a very high performingathlete.
You've done how many high rocksis a competition?
Two high rocks, two andmultiple CrossFit competitions.
You perform at a very highlevel, thanks, and obviously
fitness is very important foryou.
Marissa Liza (04:29):
It is, and I sort of feel like, probably in the
past two or three years I feellike the years of training have
sort of caught up to me a littlebit.
I felt like a little more achythan I usually feel.
Maybe something's going on.
I'm not recovering as fast as Iused to, so that was also a
factor.
Sam Rhee (04:45):
Yeah, and so these biologic mechanisms by which
BPC-157 is thought to work isvery intriguing.
It's thought to help withtissue repair and regeneration
muscle, tendon and bone.
Helps to activate growthpathways.
Growth factor increase growthfactor activity.
Anti-inflammatory effects,reduced excess inflammation and
(05:10):
swelling.
Angiogenesis, where itstimulates new blood vessel
formation, more oxygen andnutrients to damage tissue.
It's also hypothesized toincrease nitric oxide, which is
a blood vessel dilator,improving microcirculation.
Marissa Liza (05:23):
So all the words that we want to hear, the things
that are like oh, I need this.
Sam Rhee (05:27):
Yeah, so if you are an athlete or someone who feels
like their recovery is not asgood or their training protocols
are really leaving them sort ofbeat down, then something like
this seems like it would improvethose metrics.
Sure, and it's also, I think,our human nature to be like oh,
I want the next best thingthat's going to help me, what's
(05:48):
going to keep me in the gamelonger, right, Now and we'll get
into the research a little bitmore, but right now just, it's
mostly been in animal and labstudies and that's always like
I've done a lot of animal andlab studies in my past and so
I'm always a little skepticalwhen it comes to that.
I think human clinicalexperience is probably the gold
(06:12):
standard in terms of knowingwhat actually happens, but
clearly the research that hasbeen done so far has been very
promising.
Marissa Liza (06:21):
Yes, there's been a lot of research done, again
only on animals.
But I also wonder why haven'tthey tested it further on humans
, Right?
What's preventing that?
Sam Rhee (06:33):
Right, probably, in my guess and this is just a total
guess on my part is money.
So if this is not a patentablelike, if it's not something you
could put on patent, probablythere are not going to be a lot
of pharma guys who are going toreally want to invest in it.
Because you can't protect it,you can't make it your own, you
(06:54):
can't sell it in exclusivity,and so a lot of possible drugs
are not worth the investment totake it through FDA approval
because of that.
That being said, I wouldn't besurprised if pharma, if they
found that there was somebenefit to this, they'll
probably tweak it, add a coupleamino acids here and there, find
(07:15):
another proprietary version ofthis and then sell that as the
next great recovery drug.
Marissa Liza (07:22):
I don't know.
Sam Rhee (07:23):
We'll see.
Marissa Liza (07:24):
And then, of course, again, I'm playing
devil's advocate here, right?
You also.
And again, this is just stuffthat I've read and I get it.
There's the other side of it.
Well, it's like this is sowonderful, so they're never
going to let it come to themarket, because it's going to be
, you know, it's going to makemoney, and that.
There's that other side of ittoo.
Sam Rhee (07:42):
I don't agree with that, right, I'm just you know,
that's the other thing that youhear.
I mean there are certain drugsthat are game changers in terms
of the industry.
I would say the GLP-1 agonists.
The Ozempics are probably hasimpacted surgeons as well as
primary care providers in a hugeway.
So I don't, I think, if someonecan make money off of it.
(08:07):
That's where the direction ofit is going to go.
One of the things that was veryinteresting is the faster
healing of injuries suggestionwhere it accelerated tendon and
ligament repair.
Have you had any major injuriesfor which you were sort of
investigating this use for?
Marissa Liza (08:25):
injuries that for which you were sort of
investigating this use for I didnot have a major injury, I
would say.
I've been dealing with a rightshoulder pain which felt a
little more deeper than amuscular pain.
I would get a lot of burning IfI overdid it.
I could feel it just.
It was a deep ache and more ofa burning sensation that I had
never had in the past, and Ialso would feel that I was a
runner for many years.
So probably in the past two orthree years my knees have been
(08:47):
really bothering me.
So that was sort of where I waslike oh, let me see if this
helps with that.
Sam Rhee (08:55):
The other thing which what you mentioned was the first
sort of thing that piqued yourinterest is the gut protection.
There's a lot of evidence thatBPC-157 protects the stomach and
gut.
It heals stomach ulcers andanimal tests and I think
probably the first clinicalindications are going to be for
patients with chronic conditionsif it pans out for like
irritable bowel syndrome,crohn's.
Marissa Liza (09:17):
And that was sort of the non-athlete, the total
health care provider part of methat was really interested in
this this because I believe thatthe health of the digestive
system is a major role in ouroverall health, especially when
it comes to recovery of musclesand bones and just immune system
, so that and there are a lot ofthat I've seen clinically that
(09:38):
have not even irritable bowel,Crohn's colitis and they're
suffering.
So if we can heal the gutnaturally, that can potentially
help the rest of their health.
Sam Rhee (09:47):
Yeah, that will be probably the next great frontier
is the gut, because of itsmicrobial flora environment,
which is a huge thing whichwe're starting to sort of
uncover in terms of absorptionand metabolism and health.
It also is sort of a secondnervous system within the body.
So all of these things which wedon't really know about how to
(10:11):
manage in the gut is probablygoing to explode, my guess, in
the next several decades,because that's where I think a
lot of people's health is sortof predicated on.
Marissa Liza (10:20):
Yes, and I don't think it's going to take the
next couple of years or I hopenot, because I think it's so
important now and I don't thinkit's going to take the next
couple of years.
Or I hope not, because I thinkit's so important now and I
think it's something that's evenoverlooked when it comes to
what we're dealing withsystemically, is that's the
first place we should look, andsometimes it ends up being the
last place that we look, but Ido think it's becoming more
(10:41):
prominent.
We need to heal that firstbefore we can look at other
things.
Sam Rhee (10:52):
Agreed.
So again, the real worldevidence is not great.
There's no major human clinicaltrials.
We don't even know how it'sreally absorbed in the body.
So, as you said, it's primarilylike a lot of people use it as
injections.
But it is stable as a gastricprotein in the stomach, so you
can take it as a pill, but wedon't actually know what the
absorption rate is.
You know what the drug levelsare in tissues.
(11:13):
Based on that, like it's allextrapolated off of rats, which
I mean, there are a millionthings that work great in rats
and don't work great in humans.
So we'll have to wait and see.
Marissa Liza (11:22):
And I'm not sure rats are really doing like MRF.
Sam Rhee (11:25):
Right, exactly.
We're not putting them throughthe we're not putting that level
of strain and stress.
Marissa Liza (11:31):
They're not living in Northern New Jersey, right?
Sam Rhee (11:34):
Yes, With the same type of aches and pains, as well
as daily stressors on theirmind.
They're a lot, probably a lotsimpler with that, but right now
it's exploded.
So I've heard of so many peopleusing peptides.
They call peptides, peptidesthat's what they call it,
peptides, and this is one ofthem.
There's another one which we'renot going to talk about today,
(11:56):
but this is certainly probablythe peptide.
When people are talking aboutpeptides, athletes, trainers are
using this.
Anyone who has some sort ofstrain tendonitis, muscle sprain
they're sort of turning to this.
I do know a lot of Cairo guysare just like handing this stuff
out like it's like it's askingAnybody that's got an injury?
Yeah, it's going right out tothem.
(12:16):
So OK, so did you do a deepdive into the research after
hearing about it, talking aboutit, before you decided to take
it?
Marissa Liza (12:25):
Not too much of a deep dive.
I probably watched a fewYouTube videos.
I researched sort of what wouldbe contraindicated to take it
which, again, there's not muchout there, so we're also going
off of.
Okay, well, what's the worst itcan do, sort of.
Sam Rhee (12:39):
Right.
Marissa Liza (12:40):
I mean, I know obviously my own health history
Right, so I felt comfortabletaking it.
Sam Rhee (12:45):
Okay, yeah, so when you?
How are you taking it?
Is it an injection or a pillform?
I'm taking it in pill form,Okay.
Marissa Liza (12:53):
So I'm taking one pill a day.
Sam Rhee (12:54):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (12:56):
And I started.
It's actually been about amonth since I started taking it
Okay.
I did not do anything else extrain terms of recovery that I
normally would do and I feltlike I was training at the same
level that I had been trainingat.
If anything, I probably, asidefrom doing my regular gym
(13:16):
exercise, I play like pickleballtwo or three times a week.
Sometimes can be a littleintense.
I'm on my feet two or threehours or kind of you know, doing
a lot of shoulder motion.
You know, when I'm kicking butt, which is not very often
because I'm not very good- but,neither here nor there.
Sam Rhee (13:29):
So you take it once a day.
Marissa Liza (13:30):
You said Once a day.
Sam Rhee (13:31):
And what is the dose that you're taking?
So I'm taking 250 milligrams250 milligrams, and so after a
month, what are yourobservations right now?
Marissa Liza (13:41):
I would say, on a whole, I do feel better right
now.
I would say on a whole I dofeel better.
I would say that I still feelthe same level of muscle
soreness that I would feel if Ihad done a hard workout, but
some of that burning pain hasgone down in my shoulder and I
definitely don't feel sort ofthat deep ache that I used to
feel since I started taking that.
Sam Rhee (14:02):
And you can attribute that to the BPC-157, because not
much else has changed in yourlife.
Marissa Liza (14:06):
Not much else has changed, nope.
Sam Rhee (14:08):
Okay, any side effects that you've noticed from it.
Marissa Liza (14:11):
I haven't noticed any side effects.
I did, for a week, take itwithout food to see if it would
didn't impact my stomach at alland I did not notice any change
whether it was with food orwithout food, and I would always
take it generally around thesame time, which is in the
morning.
Sam Rhee (14:25):
How do you source it, Like where did you get your
BPC-157 from?
Marissa Liza (14:28):
I got it from a provider who I trust, who's been
selling it, and told me hetrusted this brand.
So it is just as a side it isavailable.
There's a site out there thatsells a lot of supplements,
called Fullscript, which a lotof providers use because you can
just send information topatients about stuff.
So it is available on therejust as a side note.
(14:49):
But I got it from anotherprovider.
Sam Rhee (14:52):
Have you recommended BPC-157 to patients?
Marissa Liza (14:55):
No, okay, I have not recommended it to anyone.
Sam Rhee (14:57):
And now that you've taken it for a month, would you
say you should?
It works fine as it is, orshould it be integrated with
other types of therapies orwellness treatments?
Marissa Liza (15:10):
I think you know when we're talking about.
Are you talking about formyself, or would I recommend it
to a?
Sam Rhee (15:14):
patient Both.
Marissa Liza (15:15):
So I would.
I'm going to stop taking it forthe next month and see if any
of those other aches and painsthat I had came back At this
point.
I would not recommend it to anyof my patients, primarily
because I don't think thatthere's enough research out
there to say, oh, this is a safething for you to take.
And I also think that in termsof health care, I tend to look
(15:40):
at the basics first, right Likeis the patient doing everything
they can in their power to helprecovery?
And, if I can help them,obviously with acupuncture,
because that's what I do butalso say okay, are we getting
enough sleep?
How is our nutrition?
Are we overtraining ourselves,rather than saying, here you're
working yourself to the bone,but you know what, try this and
(16:01):
see if that helps.
So that is typically how Itreat, so I wouldn't recommend
it.
Sam Rhee (16:07):
Yeah, because none of us are doing any of those things
.
If you actually asked any of usLike enough, I would say Did
you track yourself in any way?
Did you do any sort of testingpre post?
Marissa Liza (16:18):
I did not.
Sam Rhee (16:19):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (16:21):
I really honestly went off of how am I feeling in
the gym, how am I feeling aftertwo days of training hard, and
then how does my body feel?
Sam Rhee (16:29):
Okay, yeah, so a lot of people do cycle for like six
weeks and then come off of that.
So how long are you going tostay off and then when might you
cycle back on?
Marissa Liza (16:38):
I would take another six weeks, take six
weeks off and then cycle back on.
Sam Rhee (16:42):
Is it expensive?
Marissa Liza (16:44):
That's a well you know.
Sam Rhee (16:46):
I mean so cost-wise.
Marissa Liza (16:48):
So I know that most people probably market up
about 100 to 150%.
So I was.
I purchased it at cost becauseI had a colleague that gave it
to me at his cost.
Sam Rhee (16:58):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (16:58):
So it was for a two month supply.
It was $75.
Sam Rhee (17:03):
Wow, that's pretty.
Even at a 100% markup that'sstill pretty cheap for a
supplement.
Marissa Liza (17:07):
Correct, that was at base.
So the normal, not normal.
Somebody else would probablypay anywhere about $120 to $125.
Sam Rhee (17:14):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (17:14):
So he charged me his cost, which was $75.
Sam Rhee (17:19):
Okay, so other than the providers you've talked to,
do you know of anyone else who'sbeen on peptides?
Marissa Liza (17:25):
I consulted with a colleague of mine in Florida.
She had tried it and she didnot have much great result from
it.
She got it injected oh Yep,because she had somebody that
can do it for her down there andshe did it for four weeks and
felt like I didn't feel anydifference and she was
post-surgical knee pain.
Sam Rhee (17:43):
Oh, so she had it injected directly into the knee
area Interesting.
Marissa Liza (17:46):
Yep, okay, and she didn't notice any difference.
Sam Rhee (17:49):
Okay.
So, Well, let's talk a littlebit about the safety profile of
BPC-157.
So right now it seems like inthe short term there are no
major issues when it's injected,maybe just a little bit of
sight pain or irritation.
In animal studies they injectedginormous doses and it didn't
(18:09):
have any severe toxic or lethaleffects, no major organ damage,
no behavior change.
So it sounds like the safetymargin is probably pretty good
for this.
People who have taken ithaven't said that they've had
high blood pressure or bloodsugar changes or anything like
that.
I mean again in anecdotaltesting and a lot of people like
(18:30):
you are taking it and notnecessarily like checking their
blood sugars or their bloodpressures or anything like that,
but they're generally feelingpretty healthy.
Marissa Liza (18:40):
Definitely better.
Sam Rhee (18:41):
Yeah, I would say if you wanted to play devil's
advocate.
The big thing is long-termsafety, right, sure.
So anything that upregulatesgrowth, you know cell growth,
blood vessel proliferation isunwanted cell growth.
Marissa Liza (18:57):
Sure.
So we have to look at this aswhat if somebody has a history
of cancer?
Right, right, sure.
So we have to look at this aswhat if somebody has a history
of cancer?
Right, right?
So, and do we know that?
As, of course, allpractitioners, we do intakes and
look at health history, butwhen there's not enough research
and you're having, you know, Idon't think it's right.
Right, it's not anything.
You wouldn't want to take thatrisk, right?
Sam Rhee (19:18):
So that's always a concern and you really and I've
looked at so many drugs thathave even gone on the market and
been taken off the market and alot of stuff you can't really
see as an effect until you testit on a wide range of people in
a wide range of situations.
Marissa Liza (19:35):
Sure and a long period of time.
Sam Rhee (19:41):
And a wide range of situations.
Sure, and a long period of timeand a longer period of time.
Yeah, I've gotten burned by somany drugs that I thought were
awesome and then they were takenoff because of some issue Liver
damage in certain types ofpeople, or this, that or the
other thing.
So I wouldn't recommend anyonejust sort of jump in.
And I think you're right as aclinician, like it's one thing.
Listen, we've all experimentedin ourselves.
We're probably some of the biglike.
I think clinicians aresometimes the biggest
experimenters.
Marissa Liza (20:01):
Yes.
Sam Rhee (20:02):
But we probably wouldn't, or we never should or
ought to experiment on thepeople that we're taking care of
, and so that would be onereason why providers ought not
to really sort of throw this atpeople without actually knowing
more about this, yeah, and Ithink now too, like patients in
general, they're becoming morecomplex.
Marissa Liza (20:23):
Right, we're dealing with more complex
conditions.
They're taking a lot ofdifferent medications, so we
don't exactly know how is thisgoing to interact with the
medication.
Sam Rhee (20:34):
That is correct.
And the other biggest issuewith any drug or any kind of
substance is immune reaction.
So it is a peptide.
You can develop an allergicreaction to it, produce
antibodies.
I've seen that even with likerarely like with Botox, which is
you know, or some people youknow.
Listen, if you can have areaction to Tylenol or Advil or
(20:56):
any of the most commonover-the-counter drugs, there's
no reason why you couldn'tdevelop one to something like
this.
Marissa Liza (21:01):
Exactly.
Sam Rhee (21:03):
And the other thing is it's not regulated, so purity
and quality will always be anissue.
I mean, you can source it froma very trusted source, but even
then there's no outsideregulation to trust what that
company is doing.
Marissa Liza (21:20):
You're basically taking them at their word and I
mean, I don't know if that'strue for a lot of different
things out there, that they'renot regulated so much, but it's
not a risk that I'd want to putanyone to.
Sam Rhee (21:32):
Correct.
So let's talk about theregulatory status right now.
So right now it is not approvedby the FDA for any human use.
It's not an official medication.
It's not a dietary supplement.
You can't sell it as asupplement.
Actually, the way that it hasbeen sort of sold is through a
legal gray area.
(21:52):
It's called a research chemical.
It's called a research chemical, so that means companies can
sell it for quote lab use only.
People who buy it aretechnically using it at their
own risk.
It's not an illegal substance.
But if you're giving it tosomeone with the specific use
(22:16):
that they're going to be usingit, that's actually illegal.
So I mean, it's a gray area andI'm not going to go around, you
know, and interestingly, in NewZealand right now it's an
investigational prescriptiononly medication.
So it really depends Like thereis a lot that's out there that
we're still sort of figuring outwith this.
Marissa Liza (22:36):
Sure.
Sam Rhee (22:36):
And the FDA is always the slowest, of course, but
sometimes being slow isn'tnecessarily bad.
Yeah, the biggest and mostimportant thing is it's banned
in competitive sports right now.
So the World Anti-Doping Agencyclassifies it as a non-improved
substance.
So, even though it's not asteroid or hormone, so even
(23:07):
though it's not a steroid orhormone, if you are on it and
you are competing professionallyor at a high level, you are
going to, you're going to lightup positive for this.
For the average person, it islegal to purchase and use.
You just can't market it.
You can't tell people hey, takethis, you know that's.
So.
It's sort of weird.
I don't know how medicalproviders are sort of Getting
around that Well, right, so isit one of those things?
And I can imagine patientssaying, hey, do you have
(23:29):
peptides?
And then saying, don't ask meabout it.
But there are these researchchemicals which are available.
I don't like it's all verylegally weird.
So, um, so I don't know.
Marissa Liza (23:46):
It's really a biohacker type of situation,
right now Sure, and I mean thisis, as we know, this is just one
of the many bio biohackers orit's a buzzword that everybody
that that's putting out there.
Right, how can we, how can westay stronger, how can we stay
fitter, how can we live longer,how can we perform better?
So it's just another one inthat line of products that are
(24:08):
out there, right?
Sam Rhee (24:09):
and I mean I have seen people advertising peptides
online.
When I started looking intothis and they're probably
skirting that line a little bit.
But I don't think the FDA isgoing to go around like stamping
out every individualpractitioner.
Marissa Liza (24:27):
No, I think there's definitely bigger fish
to fry when it comes to who arewe going to?
go for and, yes, I did the same.
There's a lot of places outthere.
I actually, of course, I wentto Florida because that's where
I heard about it, but you knowthere's lots of facilities out
there and my colleague has saidthat peptides and injections are
huge down there.
(24:48):
Like everyone's doing them.
Most of them are regulated orthey have their not regulated.
They have an MD on staff.
Not regulated, they have an MDon staff.
So I think that is also maybehow they kind of get around it
or feel like it's safer at someof these places rather than just
an acupuncturist doing it.
Sam Rhee (25:04):
Florida is such a wild west for medical care.
No, I'm serious because, as aplastic surgeon, all the
craziest stuff you hear aboutaesthetic surgery happens down
in Florida.
They are the most heavilyregulated in terms of
liposuction, fat transfer, tummytucks.
Because there have been so manycomplications down in Florida.
(25:26):
Because there's no med malcoverage, Everyone goes bare.
Because you can't affordmedical malpractice coverage in
Florida.
So, every provider has a patientsign of consent saying so.
Every provider has.
Everyone you know has a patientsign a consent saying you are
aware that there's no insurance.
You know I don't have anymedical malpractice insurance
coverage.
You know, if there's anythingthat adverse happens, like you
(25:46):
know, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah blah.
So like it's crazy in Florida,like there's just a ton of
fly-by-night stuff that goes onthere.
That being said, I don't wantto cast a shadow on BPC-157.
It could be in five years.
This could be sort of thefirst-line treatment for someone
who has gastric issues or whoneeds a little bump when it
(26:09):
comes to their knee replacementor ACL replacement.
Marissa Liza (26:14):
So that was when I thought about if I were to give
this to a patient or who Ithought potentially could
benefit from this, based on howI feel after taking it.
I would say a post-surgicalpatient would be somebody that I
would recommend it to right.
So because you've had thetrauma of a surgery so that
tissue is trying to repair.
So if this can be enoughassistance to that, then that
(26:36):
would be great, rather thanagain like somebody who's not
doing the basics, overtraining,overworking, looking for
something to just like magicallyhelp them without doing the
basics.
So that's sort of my take onthat.
Sam Rhee (26:51):
Yeah, I think that's a good takeaway, I mean in terms
of someone who might be takingit.
I think, personally, I'll bechecking in on you and seeing
how you are.
You know I.
Marissa Liza (27:04):
There is a part of me that says, ok, let's take
off the six weeks, right, doregular training.
Sam Rhee (27:11):
Yeah.
Marissa Liza (27:11):
Right See if I feel any of those.
Sam Rhee (27:14):
Right, ace and pains and again.
Marissa Liza (27:16):
you know, I also think like there's so many other
factors that influence how wefeel there's the hormone factor,
there's a female for just beinga female, right?
So there's, you know.
This is all.
This is just me coming to.
Oh, I know the way I feel,right, but I can't.
When you come to a patient,right, when you're not testing,
you're not actually doingsomething to say, okay, let's
(27:38):
have a study here, let's checkhow you are no-transcript.
Sam Rhee (28:02):
I did a podcast episode about rapamycin, which
is longevity medication, and Istill haven't taken it yet.
I have it and I haven't takenit yet.
I'm still a little chicken crapabout it, like because, and so
because I'm not in a reallyterrible place right now, I
think there's, there's certainlya place I could see myself in a
(28:23):
, in a in a certain place inlife.
You know acute injury, you knowchronic pain, some sort of
really bad gastric disturbancewhere I'm just fighting
something and it's just beatingme down.
No, I would certainly, lookingat this evidence, I would say
I'll take a cycle of BPC 157 andsee what it does for me, but I
(28:46):
would have to sort of be in direstraits at that point.
I am not.
Obviously, if anyone iscompeting on any level, they
should not be taking this.
If you pop for BPC 157, that'sprobably the stupidest thing you
could do.
Like there are probably about50 other PEDs out there that
would help you more.
Like prove you're going to doit Right.
(29:08):
Yeah, take something reallythat's going to help.
You know if you're going to runthe risk of popping, but for me,
where I am, the other thingthing is is that it's really for
longevity for me.
So I, I work out for fitnessing.
You work out because you reallyenjoy it.
Yes, oh, my god, I.
(29:28):
You know anyone who I've seeneveryone who does high rocks,
the people who who really grindand push like there is a and I
understand it is is such a hugejoy and boost in quality of life
to be able to do that, and sothat is why I see a lot of
people at my gym getting theknee replacements, the shoulder
surgeries, the things that theydon't necessarily need to have
(29:51):
on a daily basis in terms offunctioning, but in order for
them to perform at the level atwhich they want to in the you
know, in the gym, doing athleticactivities, they have to do
these things.
And if you have issues whichare preventing you from fully
enjoying your life to the extentthat you want to, if you
couldn't participate in a higheroxygen, if you couldn't throw
(30:14):
down on a weekend or go to thegym and do the things that you
want to do, that is a hugediminishment of your quality of
life, 100%.
And if you're sitting there likeoh, my shoulder is just like
and you know it's not enough tolike warrant something invasive,
but it's not like really greatand it's not.
You know, I'm just it's smokingalong but not doing awesome.
I could see that.
Marissa Liza (30:36):
Sure, but not doing awesome.
(31:03):
It's always that fine line ofwanting to take care of the
patient, feeling like you'reactually doing something for
them whether it's with whatevermodality you're doing or
recommending a supplement thatyou're getting them on a better
path, and again, that's verymuch an individualized thing,
but also helping them understandtheir role in the process.
Sam Rhee (31:24):
So how about the other ?
Now, just to some like there'sanother.
When people call, talk aboutpeptides, there's another one,
tb500.
Have you heard about?
Marissa Liza (31:32):
that one that I've not heard about.
Sam Rhee (31:34):
Because a lot of people will stack both BPC-157
and then this TB-500.
Marissa Liza (31:38):
I'm sorry.
I've heard of the stack that Idid not know that that was yeah.
Sam Rhee (31:43):
And we won't talk about it, but just very briefly.
It's a synthetic peptide whichis again a fragment of a natural
occurring protein, just likeBPC-157, thymocin beta-4.
That's why it's TB, and thenit's supposed to mimic the
active region of this protein.
It's currently actually beingstudied for skin conditions
because it has something to dowith actin and sort of binding
(32:06):
to the actin protein.
So a lot of people are stackingthose Again.
We're not going to talk aboutthat.
There's always something on thehorizon, but we've also seen
stuff that supposedly helpedthat hasn't panned out in the
past.
I actually should take a deepdive and look at all the things
that people thought were goingto work.
Marissa Liza (32:24):
From a supplement perspective.
Sam Rhee (32:26):
Yeah, or drugs.
I remember the biggest one.
Well, this was when I was a kidback in the 80s, called Latril,
which was derived from peachpits and it was supposed to be
an anti-cancer drug and it wassold in Mexico and so a lot of
people went down to Mexico toget this anti-cancer treatment
because it wasn't approved inthe United States and it did
nothing.
Basically, and I can't tell youabout how many drugs that I
(32:46):
have prescribed at least threeor four that were initially
awesome, like new antibioticstaken off the market after they
figured out, oh, in widespreaddistribution, that it caused
major problems.
So I would say it's exciting.
I really appreciate you sharingyour experience with it.
It's hopeful.
(33:07):
I'm very glad that you've feltlike there was some benefit from
it.
Thanks, I'm really interestedto see what your second cycle's
like.
Yes, if I was wanting to bugyou, I'd be like do I mean?
It's a pain in the ass?
But I would say get a bunch ofmetrics like do a blood panel
work up, see where your bloodsugar is, what your blood
(33:28):
pressure is during this, allthat.
But it's like.
Marissa Liza (33:31):
I mean, I could take my blood pressure every day
but that would just begin it.
Sam Rhee (33:44):
You know I'm just that would be using you as a guinea
pig, which is time consuming andannoying.
So listen, if it works for you,if it works for anyone else,
that's great.
This is just sort ofinformational so people can sort
of take out of it what theywill.
If anyone out there is takingBPC 157 and you want to chime in
and talk about your experiencewith it, that would be really
helpful.
We would enjoy that.
Marissa Liza (33:59):
Be very curious to see how other people are doing.
Sam Rhee (34:01):
Yeah.
Marissa Liza (34:02):
Because, of course , I always hear, like I'm doing
great, I'm doing great, I youknow somebody who's giving it to
you.
It's like I've had greatresults, all my patients have
had great results, which Iunderstand.
Sam Rhee (34:11):
Absolutely, and if you need additional wellness and
you know treatment, please gosee Marcellisa.
Thank you, all Points ACU isher Instagram.
Allpointsawccom is her website.
She is an awesome licensedacupuncturist, great athlete.
She also gets and sees that youknow she understands the
(34:32):
mindset of that athlete whowants to push.
So if you are one of those andyou're in that situation where
you're needing recovery, you'reneeding additional therapy and
treatment.
I know BPC-157 is one possibleway of doing it, but acupuncture
is definitely a tried, trueperformance enhancement in that
regard.
Marissa Liza (34:50):
That is a natural anti-inflammatory nervous system
repair.
Sam Rhee (34:54):
It is not illegal and that may also be helpful.
So that's basically my way ofsaying explore all your other
therapies and if you are sort ofin my opinion at that point
where you're not, you mightthink about trying something
like this Sure, make sure you'redoing all the things that you
(35:17):
should be doing first.
Marissa Liza (35:17):
That's exactly right.
That is always my first.
So true, always my first line.
Sam Rhee (35:21):
So true, and I appreciate that.
Marissa, thank you so much forbeing my guest.
Marissa Liza (35:24):
Thank you.
Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees.
I am here with my very specialguest, marissa Liza.
She is a licensed acupuncturistand she is also someone who has
been taking the peptide BPC-157, which is one of the hottest
compounds out there in terms ofrecovery and wellness, and so
(00:24):
we're going to take a little bitof a dive into BPC 157.
We're going to talk about thescientific research, the
background behind it andMarissa's experience with it,
why she takes it and what we cantake away from her experiences
with it.
So let's first talk aboutMarissa Welcome.
Thank you for guesting.
(00:44):
Thank you, sam, and I really,really appreciate you sharing
your experience.
It's so funny because she was atthe gym the other day and she
talked to me and she said, hey,I listened to your creatine one
and you really should do one onBPC, and I was like, yeah, I
really should.
I was thinking about it and Iknow a lot of people that are on
it or are taking it, and so atthat point I was like, well, and
(01:06):
then, about a couple days later, you were like I'm taking it
and I was like, wow, that'scrazy.
I don't know anyone who I wouldactually trust in terms of
their opinion in terms of theiranecdotal experience.
And then I said, okay, wedefinitely have to do this.
Marissa Liza (01:18):
Thank you.
Sam Rhee (01:19):
So just to let you know, marissa Aliza is a
licensed acupuncturist.
Her Instagram handle isallpointsacu.
Her website is allpointsawccom.
Her office is in Rochelle Park.
She's treated so many people atthe gym.
I just had a couple people sayto me that they just saw you.
They loved your care, thank you, and I've had treatment by
(01:44):
Marissa and she's awesome.
So shout out to to yourbusiness your expertise and
you're someone that I wouldreally trust in terms of talking
about BPC 157 thank you.
Marissa Liza (01:57):
Thank you for having me and the kind words.
Yeah, I'm just excited to sortof explore this from all angles
with you so okay.
Sam Rhee (02:05):
So why are people caring about BPC-157?
All right, they say it'sawesome for healing injuries,
reducing inflammation, needingrecovery.
And before I begin, just as areminder, this is not a
substitute for professionalmedical advice, diagnosis or
treatment.
It's for informational purposesonly.
Treatment and results may varybased on circumstances,
situation and medical judgment.
Always seek the advice of yourqualified healthcare provider
(02:27):
with any questions you may have,and never disregard
professional medical advice ordelay seeking advice because of
something in this show.
So BPC-157 stands for bodyprotection compound BPC-157.
It's a sequence of 15 aminoacids, so technically a
pentadecapeptide, and they foundit in the stomach and
(02:49):
scientists isolated it from agastric protein and they
synthesized it.
So it's actually a lab-madepeptide, but it's based on a
natural stomach protein thatthey found that appeared to
protect and heal tissues andthis was something that,
initially, was what piqued yourinterest, right?
Marissa Liza (03:07):
Yes.
So I had heard about itprobably about two or three
months ago.
Another provider had said, hey,I'm taking this and I kind of
honestly didn't really thinkmuch about it.
I was like great, sounds good.
And then I had went to aseminar I needed some CEUs and
there was another provider thereand he was just talking amongst
us it was about eight of us andwe were talking about different
(03:28):
healing modalities anddifferent issues and he says I'm
having really great resultswith BPC-157.
So he's also licensed in Floridaand in Florida it is legal for
acupuncturists to do injectiontherapy.
It's within the scope of theirpractice.
They're not here in New Jersey.
So he said I have beeninjecting it and some of my
patients are having really greatresults with tissue repair,
(03:51):
post-surgical.
So I was like wow, okay.
So it was a part of me, likeokay, this is another somebody
else saying it to me.
I've definitely was heard theanti-inflammatory healing,
athlete side of me like let's go, I want to be able to continue
to perform, you know,athletically well.
So that was sort of the let me,let me try this.
Sam Rhee (04:12):
Right, and you are, and I've known you for years and
you are a very high performingathlete.
You've done how many high rocksis a competition?
Two high rocks, two andmultiple CrossFit competitions.
You perform at a very highlevel, thanks, and obviously
fitness is very important foryou.
Marissa Liza (04:29):
It is, and I sort of feel like, probably in the
past two or three years I feellike the years of training have
sort of caught up to me a littlebit.
I felt like a little more achythan I usually feel.
Maybe something's going on.
I'm not recovering as fast as Iused to, so that was also a
factor.
Sam Rhee (04:45):
Yeah, and so these biologic mechanisms by which
BPC-157 is thought to work isvery intriguing.
It's thought to help withtissue repair and regeneration
muscle, tendon and bone.
Helps to activate growthpathways.
Growth factor increase growthfactor activity.
Anti-inflammatory effects,reduced excess inflammation and
(05:10):
swelling.
Angiogenesis, where itstimulates new blood vessel
formation, more oxygen andnutrients to damage tissue.
It's also hypothesized toincrease nitric oxide, which is
a blood vessel dilator,improving microcirculation.
Marissa Liza (05:23):
So all the words that we want to hear, the things
that are like oh, I need this.
Sam Rhee (05:27):
Yeah, so if you are an athlete or someone who feels
like their recovery is not asgood or their training protocols
are really leaving them sort ofbeat down, then something like
this seems like it would improvethose metrics.
Sure, and it's also, I think,our human nature to be like oh,
I want the next best thingthat's going to help me, what's
(05:48):
going to keep me in the gamelonger, right, Now and we'll get
into the research a little bitmore, but right now just, it's
mostly been in animal and labstudies and that's always like
I've done a lot of animal andlab studies in my past and so
I'm always a little skepticalwhen it comes to that.
I think human clinicalexperience is probably the gold
(06:12):
standard in terms of knowingwhat actually happens, but
clearly the research that hasbeen done so far has been very
promising.
Marissa Liza (06:21):
Yes, there's been a lot of research done, again
only on animals.
But I also wonder why haven'tthey tested it further on humans
, Right?
What's preventing that?
Sam Rhee (06:33):
Right, probably, in my guess and this is just a total
guess on my part is money.
So if this is not a patentablelike, if it's not something you
could put on patent, probablythere are not going to be a lot
of pharma guys who are going toreally want to invest in it.
Because you can't protect it,you can't make it your own, you
(06:54):
can't sell it in exclusivity,and so a lot of possible drugs
are not worth the investment totake it through FDA approval
because of that.
That being said, I wouldn't besurprised if pharma, if they
found that there was somebenefit to this, they'll
probably tweak it, add a coupleamino acids here and there, find
(07:15):
another proprietary version ofthis and then sell that as the
next great recovery drug.
Marissa Liza (07:22):
I don't know.
Sam Rhee (07:23):
We'll see.
Marissa Liza (07:24):
And then, of course, again, I'm playing
devil's advocate here, right?
You also.
And again, this is just stuffthat I've read and I get it.
There's the other side of it.
Well, it's like this is sowonderful, so they're never
going to let it come to themarket, because it's going to be
, you know, it's going to makemoney, and that.
There's that other side of ittoo.
Sam Rhee (07:42):
I don't agree with that, right, I'm just you know,
that's the other thing that youhear.
I mean there are certain drugsthat are game changers in terms
of the industry.
I would say the GLP-1 agonists.
The Ozempics are probably hasimpacted surgeons as well as
primary care providers in a hugeway.
So I don't, I think, if someonecan make money off of it.
(08:07):
That's where the direction ofit is going to go.
One of the things that was veryinteresting is the faster
healing of injuries suggestionwhere it accelerated tendon and
ligament repair.
Have you had any major injuriesfor which you were sort of
investigating this use for?
Marissa Liza (08:25):
injuries that for which you were sort of
investigating this use for I didnot have a major injury, I
would say.
I've been dealing with a rightshoulder pain which felt a
little more deeper than amuscular pain.
I would get a lot of burning IfI overdid it.
I could feel it just.
It was a deep ache and more ofa burning sensation that I had
never had in the past, and Ialso would feel that I was a
runner for many years.
So probably in the past two orthree years my knees have been
(08:47):
really bothering me.
So that was sort of where I waslike oh, let me see if this
helps with that.
Sam Rhee (08:55):
The other thing which what you mentioned was the first
sort of thing that piqued yourinterest is the gut protection.
There's a lot of evidence thatBPC-157 protects the stomach and
gut.
It heals stomach ulcers andanimal tests and I think
probably the first clinicalindications are going to be for
patients with chronic conditionsif it pans out for like
irritable bowel syndrome,crohn's.
Marissa Liza (09:17):
And that was sort of the non-athlete, the total
health care provider part of methat was really interested in
this this because I believe thatthe health of the digestive
system is a major role in ouroverall health, especially when
it comes to recovery of musclesand bones and just immune system
, so that and there are a lot ofthat I've seen clinically that
(09:38):
have not even irritable bowel,Crohn's colitis and they're
suffering.
So if we can heal the gutnaturally, that can potentially
help the rest of their health.
Sam Rhee (09:47):
Yeah, that will be probably the next great frontier
is the gut, because of itsmicrobial flora environment,
which is a huge thing whichwe're starting to sort of
uncover in terms of absorptionand metabolism and health.
It also is sort of a secondnervous system within the body.
So all of these things which wedon't really know about how to
(10:11):
manage in the gut is probablygoing to explode, my guess, in
the next several decades,because that's where I think a
lot of people's health is sortof predicated on.
Marissa Liza (10:20):
Yes, and I don't think it's going to take the
next couple of years or I hopenot, because I think it's so
important now and I don't thinkit's going to take the next
couple of years.
Or I hope not, because I thinkit's so important now and I
think it's something that's evenoverlooked when it comes to
what we're dealing withsystemically, is that's the
first place we should look, andsometimes it ends up being the
last place that we look, but Ido think it's becoming more
(10:41):
prominent.
We need to heal that firstbefore we can look at other
things.
Sam Rhee (10:52):
Agreed.
So again, the real worldevidence is not great.
There's no major human clinicaltrials.
We don't even know how it'sreally absorbed in the body.
So, as you said, it's primarilylike a lot of people use it as
injections.
But it is stable as a gastricprotein in the stomach, so you
can take it as a pill, but wedon't actually know what the
absorption rate is.
You know what the drug levelsare in tissues.
(11:13):
Based on that, like it's allextrapolated off of rats, which
I mean, there are a millionthings that work great in rats
and don't work great in humans.
So we'll have to wait and see.
Marissa Liza (11:22):
And I'm not sure rats are really doing like MRF.
Sam Rhee (11:25):
Right, exactly.
We're not putting them throughthe we're not putting that level
of strain and stress.
Marissa Liza (11:31):
They're not living in Northern New Jersey, right?
Sam Rhee (11:34):
Yes, With the same type of aches and pains, as well
as daily stressors on theirmind.
They're a lot, probably a lotsimpler with that, but right now
it's exploded.
So I've heard of so many peopleusing peptides.
They call peptides, peptidesthat's what they call it,
peptides, and this is one ofthem.
There's another one which we'renot going to talk about today,
(11:56):
but this is certainly probablythe peptide.
When people are talking aboutpeptides, athletes, trainers are
using this.
Anyone who has some sort ofstrain tendonitis, muscle sprain
they're sort of turning to this.
I do know a lot of Cairo guysare just like handing this stuff
out like it's like it's askingAnybody that's got an injury?
Yeah, it's going right out tothem.
(12:16):
So OK, so did you do a deepdive into the research after
hearing about it, talking aboutit, before you decided to take
it?
Marissa Liza (12:25):
Not too much of a deep dive.
I probably watched a fewYouTube videos.
I researched sort of what wouldbe contraindicated to take it
which, again, there's not muchout there, so we're also going
off of.
Okay, well, what's the worst itcan do, sort of.
Sam Rhee (12:39):
Right.
Marissa Liza (12:40):
I mean, I know obviously my own health history
Right, so I felt comfortabletaking it.
Sam Rhee (12:45):
Okay, yeah, so when you?
How are you taking it?
Is it an injection or a pillform?
I'm taking it in pill form,Okay.
Marissa Liza (12:53):
So I'm taking one pill a day.
Sam Rhee (12:54):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (12:56):
And I started.
It's actually been about amonth since I started taking it
Okay.
I did not do anything else extrain terms of recovery that I
normally would do and I feltlike I was training at the same
level that I had been trainingat.
If anything, I probably, asidefrom doing my regular gym
(13:16):
exercise, I play like pickleballtwo or three times a week.
Sometimes can be a littleintense.
I'm on my feet two or threehours or kind of you know, doing
a lot of shoulder motion.
You know, when I'm kicking butt, which is not very often
because I'm not very good- but,neither here nor there.
Sam Rhee (13:29):
So you take it once a day.
Marissa Liza (13:30):
You said Once a day.
Sam Rhee (13:31):
And what is the dose that you're taking?
So I'm taking 250 milligrams250 milligrams, and so after a
month, what are yourobservations right now?
Marissa Liza (13:41):
I would say, on a whole, I do feel better right
now.
I would say on a whole I dofeel better.
I would say that I still feelthe same level of muscle
soreness that I would feel if Ihad done a hard workout, but
some of that burning pain hasgone down in my shoulder and I
definitely don't feel sort ofthat deep ache that I used to
feel since I started taking that.
Sam Rhee (14:02):
And you can attribute that to the BPC-157, because not
much else has changed in yourlife.
Marissa Liza (14:06):
Not much else has changed, nope.
Sam Rhee (14:08):
Okay, any side effects that you've noticed from it.
Marissa Liza (14:11):
I haven't noticed any side effects.
I did, for a week, take itwithout food to see if it would
didn't impact my stomach at alland I did not notice any change
whether it was with food orwithout food, and I would always
take it generally around thesame time, which is in the
morning.
Sam Rhee (14:25):
How do you source it, Like where did you get your
BPC-157 from?
Marissa Liza (14:28):
I got it from a provider who I trust, who's been
selling it, and told me hetrusted this brand.
So it is just as a side it isavailable.
There's a site out there thatsells a lot of supplements,
called Fullscript, which a lotof providers use because you can
just send information topatients about stuff.
So it is available on therejust as a side note.
(14:49):
But I got it from anotherprovider.
Sam Rhee (14:52):
Have you recommended BPC-157 to patients?
Marissa Liza (14:55):
No, okay, I have not recommended it to anyone.
Sam Rhee (14:57):
And now that you've taken it for a month, would you
say you should?
It works fine as it is, orshould it be integrated with
other types of therapies orwellness treatments?
Marissa Liza (15:10):
I think you know when we're talking about.
Are you talking about formyself, or would I recommend it
to a?
Sam Rhee (15:14):
patient Both.
Marissa Liza (15:15):
So I would.
I'm going to stop taking it forthe next month and see if any
of those other aches and painsthat I had came back At this
point.
I would not recommend it to anyof my patients, primarily
because I don't think thatthere's enough research out
there to say, oh, this is a safething for you to take.
And I also think that in termsof health care, I tend to look
(15:40):
at the basics first, right Likeis the patient doing everything
they can in their power to helprecovery?
And, if I can help them,obviously with acupuncture,
because that's what I do butalso say okay, are we getting
enough sleep?
How is our nutrition?
Are we overtraining ourselves,rather than saying, here you're
working yourself to the bone,but you know what, try this and
(16:01):
see if that helps.
So that is typically how Itreat, so I wouldn't recommend
it.
Sam Rhee (16:07):
Yeah, because none of us are doing any of those things
.
If you actually asked any of usLike enough, I would say Did
you track yourself in any way?
Did you do any sort of testingpre post?
Marissa Liza (16:18):
I did not.
Sam Rhee (16:19):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (16:21):
I really honestly went off of how am I feeling in
the gym, how am I feeling aftertwo days of training hard, and
then how does my body feel?
Sam Rhee (16:29):
Okay, yeah, so a lot of people do cycle for like six
weeks and then come off of that.
So how long are you going tostay off and then when might you
cycle back on?
Marissa Liza (16:38):
I would take another six weeks, take six
weeks off and then cycle back on.
Sam Rhee (16:42):
Is it expensive?
Marissa Liza (16:44):
That's a well you know.
Sam Rhee (16:46):
I mean so cost-wise.
Marissa Liza (16:48):
So I know that most people probably market up
about 100 to 150%.
So I was.
I purchased it at cost becauseI had a colleague that gave it
to me at his cost.
Sam Rhee (16:58):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (16:58):
So it was for a two month supply.
It was $75.
Sam Rhee (17:03):
Wow, that's pretty.
Even at a 100% markup that'sstill pretty cheap for a
supplement.
Marissa Liza (17:07):
Correct, that was at base.
So the normal, not normal.
Somebody else would probablypay anywhere about $120 to $125.
Sam Rhee (17:14):
Okay.
Marissa Liza (17:14):
So he charged me his cost, which was $75.
Sam Rhee (17:19):
Okay, so other than the providers you've talked to,
do you know of anyone else who'sbeen on peptides?
Marissa Liza (17:25):
I consulted with a colleague of mine in Florida.
She had tried it and she didnot have much great result from
it.
She got it injected oh Yep,because she had somebody that
can do it for her down there andshe did it for four weeks and
felt like I didn't feel anydifference and she was
post-surgical knee pain.
Sam Rhee (17:43):
Oh, so she had it injected directly into the knee
area Interesting.
Marissa Liza (17:46):
Yep, okay, and she didn't notice any difference.
Sam Rhee (17:49):
Okay.
So, Well, let's talk a littlebit about the safety profile of
BPC-157.
So right now it seems like inthe short term there are no
major issues when it's injected,maybe just a little bit of
sight pain or irritation.
In animal studies they injectedginormous doses and it didn't
(18:09):
have any severe toxic or lethaleffects, no major organ damage,
no behavior change.
So it sounds like the safetymargin is probably pretty good
for this.
People who have taken ithaven't said that they've had
high blood pressure or bloodsugar changes or anything like
that.
I mean again in anecdotaltesting and a lot of people like
(18:30):
you are taking it and notnecessarily like checking their
blood sugars or their bloodpressures or anything like that,
but they're generally feelingpretty healthy.
Marissa Liza (18:40):
Definitely better.
Sam Rhee (18:41):
Yeah, I would say if you wanted to play devil's
advocate.
The big thing is long-termsafety, right, sure.
So anything that upregulatesgrowth, you know cell growth,
blood vessel proliferation isunwanted cell growth.
Marissa Liza (18:57):
Sure.
So we have to look at this aswhat if somebody has a history
of cancer?
Right, right, sure.
So we have to look at this aswhat if somebody has a history
of cancer?
Right, right?
So, and do we know that?
As, of course, allpractitioners, we do intakes and
look at health history, butwhen there's not enough research
and you're having, you know, Idon't think it's right.
Right, it's not anything.
You wouldn't want to take thatrisk, right?
Sam Rhee (19:18):
So that's always a concern and you really and I've
looked at so many drugs thathave even gone on the market and
been taken off the market and alot of stuff you can't really
see as an effect until you testit on a wide range of people in
a wide range of situations.
Marissa Liza (19:35):
Sure and a long period of time.
Sam Rhee (19:41):
And a wide range of situations.
Sure, and a long period of timeand a longer period of time.
Yeah, I've gotten burned by somany drugs that I thought were
awesome and then they were takenoff because of some issue Liver
damage in certain types ofpeople, or this, that or the
other thing.
So I wouldn't recommend anyonejust sort of jump in.
And I think you're right as aclinician, like it's one thing.
Listen, we've all experimentedin ourselves.
We're probably some of the biglike.
I think clinicians aresometimes the biggest
experimenters.
Marissa Liza (20:01):
Yes.
Sam Rhee (20:02):
But we probably wouldn't, or we never should or
ought to experiment on thepeople that we're taking care of
, and so that would be onereason why providers ought not
to really sort of throw this atpeople without actually knowing
more about this, yeah, and Ithink now too, like patients in
general, they're becoming morecomplex.
Marissa Liza (20:23):
Right, we're dealing with more complex
conditions.
They're taking a lot ofdifferent medications, so we
don't exactly know how is thisgoing to interact with the
medication.
Sam Rhee (20:34):
That is correct.
And the other biggest issuewith any drug or any kind of
substance is immune reaction.
So it is a peptide.
You can develop an allergicreaction to it, produce
antibodies.
I've seen that even with likerarely like with Botox, which is
you know, or some people youknow.
Listen, if you can have areaction to Tylenol or Advil or
(20:56):
any of the most commonover-the-counter drugs, there's
no reason why you couldn'tdevelop one to something like
this.
Marissa Liza (21:01):
Exactly.
Sam Rhee (21:03):
And the other thing is it's not regulated, so purity
and quality will always be anissue.
I mean, you can source it froma very trusted source, but even
then there's no outsideregulation to trust what that
company is doing.
Marissa Liza (21:20):
You're basically taking them at their word and I
mean, I don't know if that'strue for a lot of different
things out there, that they'renot regulated so much, but it's
not a risk that I'd want to putanyone to.
Sam Rhee (21:32):
Correct.
So let's talk about theregulatory status right now.
So right now it is not approvedby the FDA for any human use.
It's not an official medication.
It's not a dietary supplement.
You can't sell it as asupplement.
Actually, the way that it hasbeen sort of sold is through a
legal gray area.
(21:52):
It's called a research chemical.
It's called a research chemical, so that means companies can
sell it for quote lab use only.
People who buy it aretechnically using it at their
own risk.
It's not an illegal substance.
But if you're giving it tosomeone with the specific use
(22:16):
that they're going to be usingit, that's actually illegal.
So I mean, it's a gray area andI'm not going to go around, you
know, and interestingly, in NewZealand right now it's an
investigational prescriptiononly medication.
So it really depends Like thereis a lot that's out there that
we're still sort of figuring outwith this.
Marissa Liza (22:36):
Sure.
Sam Rhee (22:36):
And the FDA is always the slowest, of course, but
sometimes being slow isn'tnecessarily bad.
Yeah, the biggest and mostimportant thing is it's banned
in competitive sports right now.
So the World Anti-Doping Agencyclassifies it as a non-improved
substance.
So, even though it's not asteroid or hormone, so even
(23:07):
though it's not a steroid orhormone, if you are on it and
you are competing professionallyor at a high level, you are
going to, you're going to lightup positive for this.
For the average person, it islegal to purchase and use.
You just can't market it.
You can't tell people hey, takethis, you know that's.
So.
It's sort of weird.
I don't know how medicalproviders are sort of Getting
around that Well, right, so isit one of those things?
And I can imagine patientssaying, hey, do you have
(23:29):
peptides?
And then saying, don't ask meabout it.
But there are these researchchemicals which are available.
I don't like it's all verylegally weird.
So, um, so I don't know.
Marissa Liza (23:46):
It's really a biohacker type of situation,
right now Sure, and I mean thisis, as we know, this is just one
of the many bio biohackers orit's a buzzword that everybody
that that's putting out there.
Right, how can we, how can westay stronger, how can we stay
fitter, how can we live longer,how can we perform better?
So it's just another one inthat line of products that are
(24:08):
out there, right?
Sam Rhee (24:09):
and I mean I have seen people advertising peptides
online.
When I started looking intothis and they're probably
skirting that line a little bit.
But I don't think the FDA isgoing to go around like stamping
out every individualpractitioner.
Marissa Liza (24:27):
No, I think there's definitely bigger fish
to fry when it comes to who arewe going to?
go for and, yes, I did the same.
There's a lot of places outthere.
I actually, of course, I wentto Florida because that's where
I heard about it, but you knowthere's lots of facilities out
there and my colleague has saidthat peptides and injections are
huge down there.
(24:48):
Like everyone's doing them.
Most of them are regulated orthey have their not regulated.
They have an MD on staff.
Not regulated, they have an MDon staff.
So I think that is also maybehow they kind of get around it
or feel like it's safer at someof these places rather than just
an acupuncturist doing it.
Sam Rhee (25:04):
Florida is such a wild west for medical care.
No, I'm serious because, as aplastic surgeon, all the
craziest stuff you hear aboutaesthetic surgery happens down
in Florida.
They are the most heavilyregulated in terms of
liposuction, fat transfer, tummytucks.
Because there have been so manycomplications down in Florida.
(25:26):
Because there's no med malcoverage, Everyone goes bare.
Because you can't affordmedical malpractice coverage in
Florida.
So, every provider has a patientsign of consent saying so.
Every provider has.
Everyone you know has a patientsign a consent saying you are
aware that there's no insurance.
You know I don't have anymedical malpractice insurance
coverage.
You know, if there's anythingthat adverse happens, like you
(25:46):
know, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah blah.
So like it's crazy in Florida,like there's just a ton of
fly-by-night stuff that goes onthere.
That being said, I don't wantto cast a shadow on BPC-157.
It could be in five years.
This could be sort of thefirst-line treatment for someone
who has gastric issues or whoneeds a little bump when it
(26:09):
comes to their knee replacementor ACL replacement.
Marissa Liza (26:14):
So that was when I thought about if I were to give
this to a patient or who Ithought potentially could
benefit from this, based on howI feel after taking it.
I would say a post-surgicalpatient would be somebody that I
would recommend it to right.
So because you've had thetrauma of a surgery so that
tissue is trying to repair.
So if this can be enoughassistance to that, then that
(26:36):
would be great, rather thanagain like somebody who's not
doing the basics, overtraining,overworking, looking for
something to just like magicallyhelp them without doing the
basics.
So that's sort of my take onthat.
Sam Rhee (26:51):
Yeah, I think that's a good takeaway, I mean in terms
of someone who might be takingit.
I think, personally, I'll bechecking in on you and seeing
how you are.
You know I.
Marissa Liza (27:04):
There is a part of me that says, ok, let's take
off the six weeks, right, doregular training.
Sam Rhee (27:11):
Yeah.
Marissa Liza (27:11):
Right See if I feel any of those.
Sam Rhee (27:14):
Right, ace and pains and again.
Marissa Liza (27:16):
you know, I also think like there's so many other
factors that influence how wefeel there's the hormone factor,
there's a female for just beinga female, right?
So there's, you know.
This is all.
This is just me coming to.
Oh, I know the way I feel,right, but I can't.
When you come to a patient,right, when you're not testing,
you're not actually doingsomething to say, okay, let's
(27:38):
have a study here, let's checkhow you are no-transcript.
Sam Rhee (28:02):
I did a podcast episode about rapamycin, which
is longevity medication, and Istill haven't taken it yet.
I have it and I haven't takenit yet.
I'm still a little chicken crapabout it, like because, and so
because I'm not in a reallyterrible place right now, I
think there's, there's certainlya place I could see myself in a
(28:23):
, in a in a certain place inlife.
You know acute injury, you knowchronic pain, some sort of
really bad gastric disturbancewhere I'm just fighting
something and it's just beatingme down.
No, I would certainly, lookingat this evidence, I would say
I'll take a cycle of BPC 157 andsee what it does for me, but I
(28:46):
would have to sort of be in direstraits at that point.
I am not.
Obviously, if anyone iscompeting on any level, they
should not be taking this.
If you pop for BPC 157, that'sprobably the stupidest thing you
could do.
Like there are probably about50 other PEDs out there that
would help you more.
Like prove you're going to doit Right.
(29:08):
Yeah, take something reallythat's going to help.
You know if you're going to runthe risk of popping, but for me,
where I am, the other thingthing is is that it's really for
longevity for me.
So I, I work out for fitnessing.
You work out because you reallyenjoy it.
Yes, oh, my god, I.
(29:28):
You know anyone who I've seeneveryone who does high rocks,
the people who who really grindand push like there is a and I
understand it is is such a hugejoy and boost in quality of life
to be able to do that, and sothat is why I see a lot of
people at my gym getting theknee replacements, the shoulder
surgeries, the things that theydon't necessarily need to have
(29:51):
on a daily basis in terms offunctioning, but in order for
them to perform at the level atwhich they want to in the you
know, in the gym, doing athleticactivities, they have to do
these things.
And if you have issues whichare preventing you from fully
enjoying your life to the extentthat you want to, if you
couldn't participate in a higheroxygen, if you couldn't throw
(30:14):
down on a weekend or go to thegym and do the things that you
want to do, that is a hugediminishment of your quality of
life, 100%.
And if you're sitting there likeoh, my shoulder is just like
and you know it's not enough tolike warrant something invasive,
but it's not like really greatand it's not.
You know, I'm just it's smokingalong but not doing awesome.
I could see that.
Marissa Liza (30:36):
Sure, but not doing awesome.
(31:03):
It's always that fine line ofwanting to take care of the
patient, feeling like you'reactually doing something for
them whether it's with whatevermodality you're doing or
recommending a supplement thatyou're getting them on a better
path, and again, that's verymuch an individualized thing,
but also helping them understandtheir role in the process.
Sam Rhee (31:24):
So how about the other ?
Now, just to some like there'sanother.
When people call, talk aboutpeptides, there's another one,
tb500.
Have you heard about?
Marissa Liza (31:32):
that one that I've not heard about.
Sam Rhee (31:34):
Because a lot of people will stack both BPC-157
and then this TB-500.
Marissa Liza (31:38):
I'm sorry.
I've heard of the stack that Idid not know that that was yeah.
Sam Rhee (31:43):
And we won't talk about it, but just very briefly.
It's a synthetic peptide whichis again a fragment of a natural
occurring protein, just likeBPC-157, thymocin beta-4.
That's why it's TB, and thenit's supposed to mimic the
active region of this protein.
It's currently actually beingstudied for skin conditions
because it has something to dowith actin and sort of binding
(32:06):
to the actin protein.
So a lot of people are stackingthose Again.
We're not going to talk aboutthat.
There's always something on thehorizon, but we've also seen
stuff that supposedly helpedthat hasn't panned out in the
past.
I actually should take a deepdive and look at all the things
that people thought were goingto work.
Marissa Liza (32:24):
From a supplement perspective.
Sam Rhee (32:26):
Yeah, or drugs.
I remember the biggest one.
Well, this was when I was a kidback in the 80s, called Latril,
which was derived from peachpits and it was supposed to be
an anti-cancer drug and it wassold in Mexico and so a lot of
people went down to Mexico toget this anti-cancer treatment
because it wasn't approved inthe United States and it did
nothing.
Basically, and I can't tell youabout how many drugs that I
(32:46):
have prescribed at least threeor four that were initially
awesome, like new antibioticstaken off the market after they
figured out, oh, in widespreaddistribution, that it caused
major problems.
So I would say it's exciting.
I really appreciate you sharingyour experience with it.
It's hopeful.
(33:07):
I'm very glad that you've feltlike there was some benefit from
it.
Thanks, I'm really interestedto see what your second cycle's
like.
Yes, if I was wanting to bugyou, I'd be like do I mean?
It's a pain in the ass?
But I would say get a bunch ofmetrics like do a blood panel
work up, see where your bloodsugar is, what your blood
(33:28):
pressure is during this, allthat.
But it's like.
Marissa Liza (33:31):
I mean, I could take my blood pressure every day
but that would just begin it.
Sam Rhee (33:44):
You know I'm just that would be using you as a guinea
pig, which is time consuming andannoying.
So listen, if it works for you,if it works for anyone else,
that's great.
This is just sort ofinformational so people can sort
of take out of it what theywill.
If anyone out there is takingBPC 157 and you want to chime in
and talk about your experiencewith it, that would be really
helpful.
We would enjoy that.
Marissa Liza (33:59):
Be very curious to see how other people are doing.
Sam Rhee (34:01):
Yeah.
Marissa Liza (34:02):
Because, of course , I always hear, like I'm doing
great, I'm doing great, I youknow somebody who's giving it to
you.
It's like I've had greatresults, all my patients have
had great results, which Iunderstand.
Sam Rhee (34:11):
Absolutely, and if you need additional wellness and
you know treatment, please gosee Marcellisa.
Thank you, all Points ACU isher Instagram.
Allpointsawccom is her website.
She is an awesome licensedacupuncturist, great athlete.
She also gets and sees that youknow she understands the
(34:32):
mindset of that athlete whowants to push.
So if you are one of those andyou're in that situation where
you're needing recovery, you'reneeding additional therapy and
treatment.
I know BPC-157 is one possibleway of doing it, but acupuncture
is definitely a tried, trueperformance enhancement in that
regard.
Marissa Liza (34:50):
That is a natural anti-inflammatory nervous system
repair.
Sam Rhee (34:54):
It is not illegal and that may also be helpful.
So that's basically my way ofsaying explore all your other
therapies and if you are sort ofin my opinion at that point
where you're not, you mightthink about trying something
like this Sure, make sure you'redoing all the things that you
(35:17):
should be doing first.
Marissa Liza (35:17):
That's exactly right.
That is always my first.
So true, always my first line.
Sam Rhee (35:21):
So true, and I appreciate that.
Marissa, thank you so much forbeing my guest.
Marissa Liza (35:24):
Thank you.
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