S05E104 - Tiger Parents or Smart College Admissions Strategists?: How We Got Two Kids Into Duke with Special Guest Susan Rhee

College admissions - the high-stakes game that dominates the lives of high school students and their families. In this episode, my guest is my spouse Susan Rhee @susanrhee as we unpack how our two children successfully navigated their way to Duke University, despite both facing deferrals in the early decision round.

Susan shares the rollercoaster of emotions we experienced as parents - from the crushing disappointment of initial deferrals to the eventual triumph of acceptance. Together, we candidly discuss the strategies that worked for our family: did it help when our kids did test prep early after freshman year? How important was developing consistent personal narratives through extracurriculars? We also discuss the importance of attending a school that provided individualized attention and leadership opportunities.

We also take a behind-the-scenes look at actual Duke applications. Through FERPA, our daughter obtained her college application review, revealing how admissions officers numerically score different aspects of applications and what factors truly matter in the selection process. This insider perspective demystifies how elite universities streamline the evaluation process of the thousands of qualified applicants they receive annually.

Beyond tactics, we explore the psychological dimensions of college admissions - how to support your child when they don't get into their dream school, why resilience matters more than acceptance letters, and the importance of having backup schools students genuinely love. The conversation serves as both practical guide and emotional support for families navigating this challenging journey.

Whether you're a parent of a high school student or someone fascinated by the complex world of elite college admissions, this episode offers honest insights about what works, what doesn't, and why the college your child attends is ultimately just the first paragraph of the foreword of their life story. Have you been through the college admissions process? We'd love to hear your experiences and strategies!

#CollegeAdmissions #DukeUniversity #CollegeBound #Parenting #EducationJourney #CollegeTips #HigherEducation #CollegePrep #ParentingTeens #CollegeApplication #BotoxAndBurpees #podcast

Episode Transcript

Sam Rhee (00:04):
Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees.
I have with me a particularlyspecial guest my wife, spouse,
significant other I don't knowwhat the right way to call it
these days is, but it is SusanReed.
And today our topic is going tobe well, the topic's a little
misleading.
It says how we got our two kidsinto Duke University, but
that's not really our focus.
I mean, yes, our two kids, twokids into Duke University, but

(00:26):
that's not really our focus.
I mean, yes, our two kids didget into Duke University.
Sasha is now a sophomore andNick just got admitted a couple
weeks ago.
It's really just about talkingabout the process, observations,
things that we noticed asparents.
We probably will forget most ofthese things in a couple weeks
or months, but there's a lotthat's fresh that I think a lot
of people might find interestingor helpful in their journey,

(00:48):
because it is quite a journey.
So thank you, susan, forguesting today.

Susan Rhee (00:52):
Thanks for having me .

Sam Rhee (00:53):
And just tell me a little bit about yourself.
I mean, not that I need to know, but just so that everyone out
there can get to know you.
I don't think you've ever beenguested on any podcast that I've
ever been on, so this is yourfirst time.
So thank you again for agreeingto do this.

Susan Rhee (01:07):
You're very welcome.
Hope was not the last time.
I am 53 years old, a mother oftwo.
I had worked full time as anattorney in the asset management
space for the last 30 years.
I travel quite a bit for workbut you know I find it rewarding

(01:28):
and so I've done that with bothkids sort of going through the
process which is very, very timeconsuming.
But I'm thankful to have mycareer that I love, now that we
will soon be empty nesters.

Sam Rhee (01:43):
Yes, very soon in the fall.
So the first thing I wanted tosort of outline is that our
experience with our kids is notwhat anyone else's experiences
might be.
It might be really differentand I think, attending last
night's honors dinner for Nick,it just really struck me how
amazingly different all thosekids are, how accomplished his

(02:05):
classmates were, how manyincredible places they
themselves are going to, butthat their stories are all
different and their collegeapplication process is all
different.
And, let's face it, I couldtell if you're a superstar,
you're going to be a superstar.
Like there's not a whole lot ofadvice we need to give people
who are really superstars.

(02:27):
I would say our story are twoAsian kids growing up in North
Jersey applying to you, knowschools, and, but you might have
kids, or you, or you yourselfare a kid who has a completely
different background, differentstory, different bent, different
perspective, and so this isjust one particular observation.

(02:49):
So they ended up both applyingEED early decision, which is a
binding application to Duke.
Why do you think they did?
Why do you think they did that?

Susan Rhee (03:04):
Well, unfortunately, I think, in the current
environment that they're in, Ithink most students feel as
though they have to apply earlysomewhere to increase their
chances of getting in, becauseit is a binding commitment.
So the next step is what schooland which school will that be
For Sasha?
She's known since the thirdgrade that she wanted to go to
Duke, so it really was not evena question as to where she was

(03:27):
going to apply early.

Sam Rhee (03:29):
Why do you think you wanted to go to Duke since third
grade?

Susan Rhee (03:31):
I mean, we've dragged them to basketball games
since they were in third gradeand there's, you know, onesies
of them in Duke when they'relike six months old.
So you obviously went there andit took me about a decade into
our marriage before I sort ofdrank the Blue Devil Kool-Aid
and being hated by every otherbasketball fan in the country.
Where did you go to college?

(03:52):
I went to Boston College andunfortunately I've been to
basketball games where I haverooted for Duke in solidarity
with you and the kids.
But you expose your kids to alot of things and whether or not
it will take and become theirown true passion, it's a hit or
miss.
But both of our kids lovecollege sports, they love to do

(04:12):
basketball and so for her, forSasha, it was a really best
place for her to work hard andplay hard because that is for
sort of her personality.
When it came to Nick, I thinkyou and I were very careful to
tell him that there was noobligation or responsibility or
expectation that he would beapplying early to Duke.

(04:32):
We really wanted him to look atthe full range of schools, all
different sizes, geographiclocations, to really find where
he thought he could see himself.
And you know he thought aboutit all summer and I don't think
you and I knew exactly where hewas applying early, until in
September, very true.
And then he finally told us andI have to say I sighed when he

(04:54):
told me, but he said that youknow he wanted to apply to Duke.
Why do you sigh?
Because it's a very difficultschool to get into, I think more
difficult than some otherschools that are.
You know, in certain categories, you know from the general
public, because you know we'veseen history at their high
school where there's only onestudent that goes to Duke.

(05:16):
Yeah, I'll talk about that,right, and so that's why.
And then I saw Sasha's processand they're two very different
kids, but you know, listen,we're here to support our kids
in whatever decision that theymake.
And they're two very differentkids, but you know, listen,
we're here to support our kidsin whatever decision that they
make.
And so, after a lot of visitingto a ton of schools, he chose
to apply early to Duke as well.

Sam Rhee (05:34):
And we're speculating, but why do you think he ended
up deciding to apply earlydecision to?

Susan Rhee (05:39):
Duke.
I've asked him that just tomake sure that he was certain,
and he said some of it isfamiliarity.
He's been on that campus a lotof times.
He spent a summer there takinga class.
I think the fact that hissister's there also you know
they're close, so that hadsomething to do with it as well
and I think at the end of theday, he loves Duke basketball,

(06:03):
Like he's told me when wevisited other schools where I
had competitive basketball teams.
I'm not sure if I can root forthis team, even though it'll be,
my school and so I think forhim it just checked all the
boxes for him personally as well.

Sam Rhee (06:19):
As parents, did you worry about them not getting
into the first choice?
I mean, they were both applyingearly decision and both of them
there's no guarantee whatsoeverthat they're getting into their
first choice.

Susan Rhee (06:31):
Well, I have to say, all these bags under my eyes
are from the cumulative effectof trying to you know of both
their college processes.
But you know, I will saythey're very different students.
Say they're very differentstudents and because Sasha was
our first and we didn't reallyknow that much about the process
, and based on her sort of bodyof work through the last four
years, I think I thought howcould they not take this kid?

(06:54):
And so I think we both thoughtlike there's nothing more she
could have physically done, youknow, in her four years, as you
know, a student and so, and Ithink she kind of felt that way
as well, and so when she gotdeferred it was a really
heartbreaking sort of day forher.

Sam Rhee (07:15):
Right.
So what happens?
Is you apply in?
When is the deadline?
The?

Susan Rhee (07:20):
deadline is November 1st for most early decisions
and you find out about the weekbefore Christmas.

Sam Rhee (07:25):
And so if you get in, you're committed, yes, and you
don't have to apply to any otherschool.

Susan Rhee (07:29):
Nope, you're done.

Sam Rhee (07:31):
But if you don't get in, you could either be denied,
where they reject you, ordeferred, where you go through
the regular admissions process.
And so I remember this veryvividly.
I know you did.
We both sat there and I don'tknow how these TikTok videos
happen, where people do thereveals because it's so nerve

(07:51):
wracking, and I I was.
I remember, as a parent, beingso disappointed in the fact that
she opened it.
And you know you're now on yourlaptop, you click on it, you
open the portal message and itsays deferred and she's crying.
It's a terrible moment as aparent to feel for your daughter

(08:11):
and you know the fact that shedid not get what she wanted.
How did you feel about it?

Susan Rhee (08:18):
I mean I was surprised.
And then you know, as you startseeing stats come out on how
many, what percentage theyactually took out of the early
decision pool, then I vacillatedbetween being thankful that she
wasn't outright rejected andthat she still at least had a
fight.
I mean that basketball seasonwas the most peaceful for me
because we did not watch oneDuke basketball game.

Sam Rhee (08:40):
Oh, I put all my Duke stuff away.

Susan Rhee (08:42):
I think her Duke ornament went into the fireplace
Like.
So you know it was just one ofthose moments where you know the
whole process is just a rangeof emotions, you know, from
being happy to being confused,to being sad, to being outright
angry.
And so you know it was a toughwinter break for her and the
family, and you know I think shejust couldn't get it out of her

(09:16):
mind.

Sam Rhee (09:17):
And you know we just you can only just encourage that
the process has just started.
And you know standing there inthe kitchen with his laptop and
you know opening the letter onthe portal and then slamming the
laptop shut and being so upsetthat he got deferred, so I

(09:38):
couldn't believe that it waslike deja vu all over again.
And so how did you feel aboutthe second time around?

Susan Rhee (09:43):
like deja vu all over again, and so how did you
feel about the second timearound?

Sam Rhee (09:50):
I mean I think for Nick.
I was sort of thinking that hewas going to get deferred.

Susan Rhee (09:54):
Wow, because I feel as though you know some of this
is strategy, right, and whetherI'm right or wrong, you always
like make fun of me because Ihave all these conspiracy
theories on why certain schoolsdo this and that.
But I did feel as though, fromif I'm a Duke admission person,
I'm thinking this kid is prettymuch a lock-in to come if we let
him in in the art regulardecision.
Pool His sister's there.

(10:15):
You went there, and so I didnot think he was going to get
outright rejected.
So I figured he was going toget deferred, because they know
that the yield on him is apretty high percentage that if
he comes in regular decision hewill probably attend.

Sam Rhee (10:29):
So you didn't think he was a strong enough candidate
for them to just be like we wantyou, we're going to take you.

Susan Rhee (10:34):
No, because Sasha wasn't, and so you know watching
her process.
I think it recalibratedeverything for us, or for me at
least, on sort of how arbitrarythe process sort of is.
And remember, with every schoolduring early decision it's not
only just the students, everycollegiate athlete is being
admitted during that process.

(10:54):
So that's already two, threehundred spots out of seven
hundred.
So the Boozer Twins coming infor next year were admitted all
the other and that's justbasketball due because of a
zillion sports, so it's allthose athletes that are coming
in during that round.
Yeah.

Sam Rhee (11:10):
I think if you have a kid who's good at sports, it's
such a huge short not shortcutbut short circuit of the process
.
We just saw the kid who's sixIs he 6'11".

Susan Rhee (11:22):
Yeah.

Sam Rhee (11:22):
And he's going to MIT for basketball.
Yeah, and he's going to MIT forbasketball.

Susan Rhee (11:25):
Yeah.

Sam Rhee (11:25):
And the kid is ginormous, but he's probably
sharper than like 99.9% of anybasketball player you've ever
seen out there and it just mademe happy to see this kid use his
athletic skills to be able togo to an institution where he's
not going to go on toprofessional basketball most
likely if you're playing for MITbut the fact that he's going to

(11:47):
have an amazing career probablyafterwards because he's getting
into an institution, that'samazing.
Yeah, and I think I learned alot when Sasha was it your idea
or her idea to get herapplication?

Susan Rhee (12:03):
Oh, I told her.

Sam Rhee (12:04):
Okay idea to get her application.
Oh, I told her Okay and we'lltalk about it, but basically she
was able to get a copy of heractual Duke application and
their review and ratings andwe'll go through that a little
bit just so that peopleunderstand what points they're
looking at and what they'reactually writing down in these
applications, which was a littlemind-blowing to me, actually.

(12:26):
Okay, so were there any otherschools during this early
process that they felt like theyalso really loved, that they
would also be okay at going to?

Susan Rhee (12:39):
Yeah, they were both really similar in that they
both loved USC and UCLA.
I mean, what's not to love?
It's California, it's sunny,there's palm trees everywhere,
and those two schools don't havean early decision.
They have an early actionprocess, which means it's not
binding, but it's the sameNovember 1 application deadline.

(13:00):
But the kicker to that is youfind out whether you're in or
not, or deferred, in January,which is two months earlier than
the regular decision pool.
And so those were two schoolsthat, for both of them, was very
high on their list as well.

Sam Rhee (13:16):
I know a lot of kids, especially at the school they go
to, which is Dwight Englewood,which is a private school that
so many kids apply to all theIvies, and the Ivies have a
slightly different admissionsprocess.
They're early, they don't haveand this is something I never
quite understood is I know aboutED.
You apply, it's binding, youget in done.

(13:39):
It's a little unfair in thesense that colleges hold you to
that decision.
You don't get a chance to sortof look at any other acceptances
and see whether or not there'ssomeplace better that you might
think is more desirable.
You know it's a one and doneshot.
The upside is is youradmissions rate is higher.
Right, it's usually what like.

(14:00):
At Duke, it was what versus thethis year, with three and a
half for the regular pool.
But Harvard, princeton, allthese other places they do.
Can you explain this one to me,because you know this one?

Susan Rhee (14:16):
Yeah, so there are some IVs like Cornell and
Columbia that have earlydecisions, so same thing binding
.
There are some IVs like I thinkit's Yale, princeton for sure
where they have this thingcalled restrictive early action
where you have to apply earlyand you'll find out early but
you are not allowed to apply toany other early action schools
except for state schools.

(14:36):
So that's sort of the trade-offand so for instance, if Nick
was applying to Princeton hewould not have been able to
apply to USC Early Actionbecause that is a private
institution.
He could to Michigan becausethat's a state institution,
rutgers, so any state college.
So they have a restrictive orREA process.

Sam Rhee (14:57):
What's EA1, EA2 then?

Susan Rhee (14:59):
So EA1 is what our kids did early decision you
apply by November 1,.
You find out before Christmas.
Pa1 is what our kids did.
Early decision you apply byNovember 1.
You find out before ChristmasFor some kids, if you don't get
into your number one ED school,you can apply early decision 2,
which deadline is January 1, andyou'll find out by the end of
February.
So it's just the same processjust from January to March.

(15:19):
And so there are a couple ofschools that have ED2, like
Tufts has ED2.
Washu has ED2.
I think Emory has ED2.
So that gives sort of kids twobites of the apple, right to
kind of be done with thisprocess if they have two schools
that they really liked.

Sam Rhee (15:37):
Now, how do these students rank these schools?
Because there's so much chatterwith these kids about what
school is good or what school isnot good, and so how do you
think this plays into the stressof college admissions for these
kids?

Susan Rhee (15:53):
I mean I think there's no one more stressed in
this process.
I mean you might think we'rereally stressed.
No one is more stressed thanthe actual kid.
Oh absolutely, and I think alot of whether they think
something is good or not,frankly speaking, is sort of
their academic place or rankingor pecking order at their school
.
So these kids know they're atthe top of the class, middle

(16:15):
below, whatever, and so a lot ofit, I think, is sort of the
social pressure of sort ofmeeting other people's
expectations.

Sam Rhee (16:24):
Isn't that crazy?
Which is?

Susan Rhee (16:24):
crazy Because at the end of the day, you know, I
think what we kept on tellingour kids and whether they
believed it or not was it reallydid not matter where you went.
It's really the fact that it wasa good fit for you and that you
do your best and strive at theschool that you're ultimately
being in.
I don't think they listened to alick of that when we said that,
because they're not ready toprocess it that way.
They kind of just look at theschools and the problem with

(16:47):
this is that the top 20 schoolsevery single kid at that school
is applying to.
They're not taking 50 kids toUSC, so at some point it becomes
a numbers game that's justworking against a majority of
the students, and so I thinkit's the pressures of all of
that and I think that you knowit's a lot for these kids to
navigate not only those emotions, doing all these applications,

(17:10):
writing all this and don'tforget there's still full time
students that need to do reallywell for a semester of their
senior year was colored becausemy parents were the typical
Asian parents that were likeHabada, harvard, you know Yela,

(17:33):
you know Princeton, and you knowthat's what they knew, because
they had no idea they had justcome from Korea, maybe a year
before I was born, two yearsbefore I was born, and so they
knew nothing.

Sam Rhee (17:42):
And the fact that I ended up choosing well, first of
all, I didn't get into any ofthe Ivies, so I was a failed,
you know Ivy League wannabe.

Susan Rhee (17:50):
You went into Cornell.

Sam Rhee (17:51):
Okay, yes, you're right, I did All right One.
And so all of their friends'kids got into Harvard and Yale
and Princeton and Columbia andall these places and I ended up
choosing Duke and that was veryconfusing to them back in 1987.
Like it was one of those whatis this place?

(18:13):
And then I remember and this isa family joke, but when my
brother, who also went to Dukehe's two years younger than me
was applying for engineeringschools and he wanted to go to
Harvey Mudd, which is a greatprivate engineering school out
in California, part of theClaremont system, and I remember

(18:39):
my mother just going HarveyMudd, harvey Mudd, and just
yelling at him over it like no,I'm not spending money for you
to go to Habibud.
And so I think that colored myperspective in terms of what I
thought an ideal college was.
I did not think that you had togo to an Ivy.
Duke wasn't as nearly asselective as it is now, and so

(19:02):
it worried me a little bit thatthey ended up wanting to go
there.
Obviously I influenced them insome part at least by exposing
them to all of the Duke,basketball and everything but
but I just really worry thatthey would think that and I
always said this, I said this ina previous podcast this is not
like it doesn't define anythingin your life.
It's not your first chapter,it's not even the first page of

(19:26):
the first chapter.
It's like the first paragraphof the foreword of the prologue
of your book.
Your success is not even nearlydependent on what undergraduate
institution you go to, nor isyour happiness, nor is your
overall experience dependent onthe status of that school.

(19:49):
But these kids keep feeding intothat over and over and over
again, and I think, honestly,the parents, like it or not,
also do that in huge part, andit's really really, really,
really, really hard, becausethis could have fallen a
completely different way for ourkids.
It could have gone any otherway than this.
Like, this was lottery luck ona lot of levels, and did we play

(20:11):
the odds?
Did we try to shape it the bestway we could as parents?
Absolutely, and there are somethings that I think we did do
which maybe influenced things alittle bit, but it's a crapshoot
.
Like I said, it's not ameritocracy in any means, by any
means.
And so you know, how many kidsdid you see at our school that

(20:34):
had some kind of in, whetherthey're athletics, like the kid
from going to MIT or you know,family or other connections I
mean that really sort of showedall of us that it's not
necessarily the brightest or thesmartest kids that go into
whatever school that they wantto go to.

Susan Rhee (20:55):
I mean, I think when you look at the kids, at least
from their school I wouldn't saya majority of them, but I would
say 30% have applied to aninstitution that one of their
parents or both their parentshave gone to, and I have seen it
both ways.
I have seen kids a majority ofthem get in.
I have seen some kids not getin.

(21:17):
You know, for Nick's year, Ithink, from what I sort of know.
I don't know how many peopleapplied, but I think four or
five of them ended up gettingdeferred and I think four out of
the five had at least oneparent that had attended Duke.
They ultimately did not end upgetting in.

(21:38):
But I think that everyone's sortof strategy or sort of game
plan the child likes the schoolis to try to leverage at least
something like that just todifferentiate them a little bit.
Because, truth be told, atthese schools they're all
looking at kids that are thebrightest in their class.
Have, you know, led a bazillionclubs?

(22:01):
They're all, frankly, the samein all respects.
So there's no sort ofdifferentiating factor anymore,
because I think these kids havejust been sort of been groomed
or have been working on theirstory since freshman year, and
so I do think you know thatwhere your parents went to

(22:21):
school, and if you decide toapply there, I think it does
give them a little bit of aboost, considering all things
being equal.

Sam Rhee (22:30):
But without that you know that alone is not going to
get you in anywhere, of course,and I think you have to remember
that colleges are looking tofit people into their niches.
So if they need a tuba playerthat year, they're going to look
for a tuba player and, like yousaid, there are so many
candidates that are of equalqualifications.
It's much easier to pick thetuba player than it is, say,

(22:53):
someone who isn't, and so we cantalk a little bit about shaping
stories and how that can workto some kids' advantages.
I think we chose to send themto a private school instead of
sending them to Ridgewood HighSchool.
Do you think that made adifference?

Susan Rhee (23:11):
A hundred percent.
I mean, I think that I thinkSasha sort of bamboozled you and
sort of wore you down, becausewith her, you know, she really
felt as though she could reallyshine.
At a smaller institution, shecould get involved in a lot more
things.
So, you know, 125 kids versus500, it's a big difference.

(23:35):
Do I think she would have donereally well at Ridgewood High
School?
Yes, do I think her outcomewould have been the same?
I don't know, but at the end ofthe day she was very happy
there for four years and shethrived.
I mean, she really did and tookadvantage of every opportunity,
and if there was something shewanted to do that wasn't there,

(23:56):
she was able to sort of be ableto make it happen.

Sam Rhee (23:59):
Nick.

Susan Rhee (24:01):
Nick, also, I think we just assumed, you know, we
just have both kids at the sameplace.

Sam Rhee (24:06):
How about his performance?
Do you think he would have doneas well at Ridgewood as versus
Dwight?

Susan Rhee (24:10):
I don't think so.
Why does?
Very well the way he operates.
But his personality is verydifferent and I think a smaller
class size setting was reallyhelpful in sort of drawing his
talents and his interests out.

(24:32):
He was able to get involved ina ton of extracurricular
activities.
He led and created clubs, andso I think that smaller
environment for him made a bigdifference.

Sam Rhee (24:43):
How about BCA, bergen County Academies?
That is the jewel of BergenCounty, sasha applied, it is
free for all.
You can go there and theircollege admissions record is
absolutely stellar.

Susan Rhee (24:56):
You know this is kind of like with colleges right
, you have to find the right fit.
And yes, sasha thought thatthat was her dream high school,
going into eighth grade.
So she took the test.
She ended up getting in, butsomewhere before her decision
came out, she said this is notthe place for me.
And when we pressed her on it,she just said like I don't want

(25:17):
to be studying 24-7 to maybe bemiddle of the class because this
is the brightest of BergenCounty, all in one school.
And so I think she feared thatshe would not have a complete
sort of high school experience,because it's not all about just
studying and everything and allthat.

Sam Rhee (25:34):
And so she my parents feel differently, but go ahead
and everything and all that.

Susan Rhee (25:37):
And so she my parents feel differently, but go
ahead.
Yes, but we're not your parents.
And I have to say, when I wentwith her to the interview, the
parents were in the gym waitingfor their kids to come out, and
even just the parents in therewere stressing me out.
It was just a very differentsort of mindset and so
ultimately, I was happy she cameto that conclusion on her own.

Sam Rhee (26:01):
Wasn't one wearing?

Susan Rhee (26:02):
a tux I don't know if it was a tux, but it was a
full blown suit.
And then the guy sitting nextto her because she was going for
computer science at the timebrought like a whole box of his
trophies and awards, and she'sjust looking at him and she just
like, this is not the place forme.
So thank God, though, sherealized that pretty early on,
at that young age, to be able topivot.

Sam Rhee (26:24):
Yeah, but if you're a superstar, that should be the
place to go right.

Susan Rhee (26:28):
Yes, I think, depending on what you want,
though, as your high schoolexperience, we know people who
went to BCA who are friends withSasha.
Yes.

Sam Rhee (26:36):
They are not nerds, they didn't study all the time.
They are complete individualswho are superstars.

Susan Rhee (26:42):
That's true.

Sam Rhee (26:42):
So I would say, if you are a superstar, you should
probably go to that school,because you can pick almost any
school you want coming out ofthat school.
If you do well, yes, okay, sothey're not all nerds who just
carry boxes of trophies all overthe place.

Susan Rhee (26:55):
Okay.

Sam Rhee (26:57):
The.
They're not all nerds who justcarry boxes of trophies all over
the place.
Okay, the two that we know arenot.
That's good enough for me.
All right, so let's talk.
Let me throw back a little bitschool.

(27:20):
You know kindergarten like theactivities they were exposed to,
the developmental sort ofthings that we wanted them to be
exposed to.
Do you think any of that made adifference in terms of how they
were either prepared for orgetting you know to do well in
terms of the performanceafterwards in high school?

Susan Rhee (27:34):
I mean, I think, looking back, I really believe
you can't sort of force a kid towant to do well.
Some of that has to be sort ofinnate.
Yes, you can like browbeat themand force that, but that is
very long like short lived onhow long you could do that.
What are you going to do thatfor the next 18 years, 20 years?
What are you going to do withthat?

Sam Rhee (27:53):
Did you force them to do some things as kids?

Susan Rhee (27:54):
Yes, the one thing I did with Sasha is I did not
want her to be one of thosegirls in a STEM class that felt
small with the boys, and so forme it was really important that
she have and be very confident,and so when she was in pre-K, I
enrolled her in Kumon, wherethey do like early math and

(28:16):
reading and, you know, you kindof progress at your own pace.
So if you finish a level, youtake the test and you pass, you
go to the next level, and theymade it fun for the kids because
every time you pass a level yougot a different colored bag.

Sam Rhee (28:27):
You could buy things from the store yeah, funds
relative, but yes, they did haveprizes yeah, so there are
prizes.

Susan Rhee (28:32):
So at the time they didn't think it was anything
that arduous.
Now, mind you, when theystarted advancing and they got
to like fifth grade, I mean itwas math that I couldn't even do
anymore and so you took thebrunt of sort of doing their
homework with them.
But you know it's hard to getkids to consistently want to do
that, but we literally just madethem stick with it.
I mean, I think sometimes withNick you were spending there

(28:54):
like 45 minutes with him withthe yellow post-its, trying to
explain a concept to him andwhatever.

Sam Rhee (28:59):
I would say they would argue that I didn't help them
very much.
But I would say I do know, I doremember a lot of kids that
were their peers started Kumonand sort of gave up on it pretty
quick.
And for whatever reason we madethem do it, I would say it
helped them for two reasons, andthis is one of the things I go

(29:23):
back to is kids do well withsuccess.
If they struggle, it's easy forthem to quit.
If they're good at a sport,they keep getting better at that
sport.
If they're good at a subject,they keep getting better at that
subject.
And unfortunately, but thereality is, math is not
necessarily about smartness,it's about knowledge and

(29:46):
repetition.
So the fact that they hadexposure to a lot of the math
concepts before they actuallytook them in school made it
easier for them, made them,built them some confidence and
they never had problems withreading.
So reading always seemed to befine for them.
So we just kind of, you know,stopped the reading part of it.

(30:09):
The other thing that I and so Ithink building that success of
you know, that pattern ofknowing what success is like.
I know what it feels like to gointo a class and do well.
Once you reinforce that, theysort of want that.
Once they kind of struggle andflail like they don't really,

(30:29):
they shy away from it, and youcan see that in sports, too, all
the time.
So I would say the fact that itwasn't so much what the subject
was, but just that feeling ofsuccess for a kid, setting that
up for them, was super helpfuland also it helped them know
that they have resources so theyactually would go back to their

(30:52):
Kumon tutors and even whatmiddle school or early high
school I can't remember to askfor help for problems.
And I think that is one of thethings that our kids learned
from all of this extra crap thatwe made them do is that they
could seek help.
They can find others to helpthem.
Now, again, you need either thesupport around you for people

(31:15):
like I couldn't help them afterfourth grade really, but we had
the resources to get them to thetutors to help them with these
problems.
And I remember many times Nickor Sasha even now with Nick,
like before tests, not you know,they didn't feel really up to
date on the concepts or reallystrong on it would go have a

(31:36):
session or two with somebody upto date on the concepts or
really strong on it, would gohave a session or two with
somebody and that is the kind ofpattern or habits that you have
to ingrain in your kids.
That listen, they're notnecessarily smarter than anyone
else, but if you have access toresources and you can get to it
and you know what success feelslike, how to set yourself up for
it.
We all know what it's like totake a test and you're not

(31:57):
prepared.
And you know you're notprepared.
You know that's a terriblefeeling.
Like that's still some of myworst nightmares that come back
is like feeling unprepared for atest.
So I would say the early partof development in terms of if
you're setting your kids up forsuccess later is to reinforce
that feeling of success.
The other thing is we didenroll them in a ton of sports,

(32:21):
like so many different sports somany.
And I feel like that helped alot in terms of just physical
development.
Physical development also goeshand-in-hand with mental
development and maybe theydidn't do everything.
You know, or you know, nick didbasketball for a while Now he's
in track.
Sasha did soccer Now it doesn'treally like soccer, but did

(32:42):
lacrosse for a while, which heenjoyed.
Like, just keeping them inactivities, especially team
based activities.
I think they're awesome sports,but I do feel like team
building, social interaction,working well with others.
I never really had that and Ijust love the fact that those

(33:06):
two had it and I think that thatsort of helped them in terms of
their high school activities,clubs, leadership in the future.
So I don't think you have to besuper crazy about it, but yeah,
I think you should definitelypush it and listen if you're
really good at something like we.
There were kids at Ridgewoodwho went to Stanford on lacrosse

(33:28):
or Duke for baseball, you know,and so there are a few kids out
there that can you know.
Or even kids at Dwight whomaybe weren't like D1 athletes
but got into some awesome D3schools like really top notch,
you know, playing sports.
So there's a lot of differentpaths that you can use.
Keep trying your kids atdifferent things and you might

(33:50):
find that in that works for them, that they love, they want to
pursue and can help them get thebest education possible.
So let's talk about how theydid in terms of their grades and
test scores in high school.
How do you think they did interms of their grades, both

(34:12):
Sasha and Nick?

Susan Rhee (34:14):
I mean Sasha probably couldn't have done any
better.
Nick ended up, you know, theychanged it a little bit his year
, whereas when Sasha was goingthey actually gave A pluses and
made those the value of thatlike a 4.3.
Whereas in Nick's senior yearthey got away with the whole A
pluses stuff.

(34:34):
But you know, but Nick wasclose to what Sasha did.
How about standardized?

Sam Rhee (34:39):
testing.

Susan Rhee (34:40):
They both took it very early.

Sam Rhee (34:43):
The SAT.

Susan Rhee (34:43):
Yeah, they both took the SAT.
It was before the revisedformat.
I think they took it after eachof their freshman years.

Sam Rhee (34:49):
Did they prep?
Did they do SAT prep?

Susan Rhee (34:51):
Yes, they went to an SAT prep like for two or three
months before they took theAugust one of that summer, after
freshman year.
So they took it early.
Yes, they took it early becausethey had already finished the
math that was required and theonly thing I said to them was
because they were obviouslyannoyed with me by telling me,

(35:11):
asking me.
You know, I was asking them todo this, but what I told them
was I said listen, once you getto be a sophomore, going to
junior or junior year, yourcourse load is so heavy you do
not want to be dealing withstudying for this standardized
test on top of that.
So after freshman year freshmanyear is like not crazy, you
know, it's some modicum ofdifficulty, but it wasn't

(35:32):
crushing the workload.
And so they reluctantly did itand they took it twice.
So Sasha took it the first time.
So she did not as well as shewanted the first time.
So she took it a second timeand that score was fine.
Nick actually the first time gotthe score that he wanted, but
of course you know he'scompetitive.

(35:54):
So he said, oh, let me just tryit again, which he didn't do
better.
So he was like, okay, that'sfine.
So he said, oh, let me just tryit again, which he didn't do
better.
So he was like, okay, that'sfine.
So they were done pretty early.

Sam Rhee (36:00):
So do you feel like you need to do the test prep?
And I think the other thing isis that test prep doesn't last
that long, like the effect of itdoes not extend, so it's not
like you could test prep, waitsix months and then feel like
you got that boost from testprep, like it's this is, and
then feel like you got thatboost from test prep.
This is where the system is notfair.
If you really test prep hardand then you take the exam,

(36:23):
you're in that testing mode,question mode, answer mode, and
I don't know if you've taken alot of exams I've taken a lot of
exams in my life and there issort of a mindset that you need
in order to process, evaluate,answer for these kind of tests
and get into that mindset ofwhat these test composers are

(36:45):
doing.
And so it really is like acrest think you necessarily need
to do it your freshman year,but you need to do it at a time
where you have a big gap of timewhere you can really
intensively test prep and thengo into the test with the
maximum amount of confidence.
I think Nick retook it, but hedidn't test prep again and so it

(37:08):
had kind of faded a little bitand so you kind of lose that.
So it's unfortunate.
I don't know how much emphasiscolleges are now paying to test
scores.
I know there are test optional.
A lot of places still are.
What's your thought abouttesting and its role in terms of

(37:30):
being evaluated for collegeadmissions?

Susan Rhee (37:54):
no-transcript sort of initial bar, which it used to
be, that if you didn't getabove some certain SAT score,
the schools wouldn't evenconsider you.
Now that that barrier has beenremoved, so many kids are
applying to every single school,which is why all these schools
are getting record number ofapplications.
And I'm sorry, when you have90,000 applications, are you

(38:16):
really looking at thesecarefully and individually and
holistically?
Probably not.
So it's come you know with apros and cons, sort of you know,
with sort of the test option.
Now, next year several schoolsdid bring testing back, like UT
Austin did, yale did, georgetowndid, and I think they're just
seeing that there are somecorrelation to how kids do their

(38:39):
freshman year if they had atest score submitted, and I
think the trend is going tocontinue where schools are going
to start requiring tests.
However, nics school counselorsdid say that even these schools
that are saying they're testoptional, if they look at the
kids that they're admitting, avery high percentage had test
scores.
So it's like one of thosethings where you're sort of
trying to read the tea leaves ofeach school to sort of see sort

(39:03):
of what your decision is withrespect to your testing, because
you can send to some schoolsand not send to others.
It's not a uniform thing.

Sam Rhee (39:10):
So if you're a good test taker, it's to your
advantage to take these testsyes, yes, and perform well.
Yes, your advantage to takethese tests, yes, yes, and
perform well.
Yes, and I think, having takentests a lot, there are so many
occupations and options in lifethat are open.
The better off, the better testtaker you are, whether it's the
LSAT, the MCAT.

(39:31):
You know everything else afterthat.
So if you have a kid who youmight not think is the best test
taker, I think it behooves youto work on their test taking
skills.
I think that's really important.
It's like I hate to liken it toCrossFit because that's such a
far analogy, but it is sort oflike when you perform in a comp

(39:53):
for CrossFit.
Performing well in a comp forCrossFit, performing well in a
competition or any competition,is a skill right.
So you could be a greatbaseball player, but if you're
in a game time situation, ittakes experience in that game
time to be able to execute.
You could do great in battingpractice.
You know every day with yourteam, but in certain points in

(40:16):
time you have to be able toexecute and you might know all
the material that is in the SATor any other standardized test,
but if you can't process,evaluate and spit out the right
answer, it's going to reallyhurt.
And so, as much as I hate theway these standardized tests,
the importance that it is onthem, I realize because I have

(40:38):
been in historically a good testtaker, that that's what got me
through, and I can only advisepeople to reach their maximum
potential in terms of testtaking, and so I think that
that's something that is a hardtruth for some kids.
But listen, I tell kids you knowwho are pre-med dude, you

(40:59):
better.
You're going to be taking a lotof tests like a lot, and if you
struggle, it's going to be along road and it has nothing to
do with how compassionate youare, how good your hands are,
how much knowledge you canretain.
It's about getting that rightanswer, and so it's unfortunate,
but that's something that Ithink kids need to know early.
Let's talk about theirextracurriculars and you know

(41:23):
what?
Let's also lead that intocrafting their story.
So I think one of the thingsthat kids can really control in
terms of the process is whatstory they present to college
admissions, and so how did ourkids do that and how did they
come about deciding what theirquote story is?

Susan Rhee (41:44):
I mean, I think for both of them they kind of leaned
into what they were mostinterested in, and so for Sasha,
that was ethics and philosophy.
She really loved the teachings,the classes, and so she really
leaned on ethics and philosophyand so she took all the ethics
and philosophy courses that theschool had.
She was a member of the ethicsbowl team since freshman year

(42:05):
and then was a captain hersenior year.
So she really leaned into that.
Although he took some time forhim to acknowledge the fact that
he's a very good writer and so,since he wasn't completely sure
what he wanted to study, Iasked him to consider being an
English major, because that iswhat he loved.

(42:26):
He loves to write, and so hewas already writing for the
paper and that's where he foundthe most joy, he said, was when
he was just sitting down andwriting.
So I think the narrative reallystarts with, and has to start
with, what are your kidspassionate about?
What is it that they like?
Because that story is going tohave to be woven in through all

(42:47):
the activities extracurriculars,summer programs that they do
leading up to their senior year.

Sam Rhee (42:52):
Yeah, so I agree wholeheartedly.
You're like you said.
There's so many highlyqualified applicants.
You have to present a story, aunique as you can story, to
these admissions counselors orofficers.
So if you are just sort ofscattershot in terms of all of

(43:16):
your interests, you dabble alittle bit here, you dabble a
little bit here, dabble a littlebit there.
It doesn't really work so great.
I think if you can weaveeverything into a cohesive
personal narrative, it makes thekids stand out.
Oh, they're the one who caresabout ethics, and so they do
ethics, this, and they're alsointo humanitarian efforts here

(43:38):
and they do this, and so youknow, and they're a leader in
this.
So I agree, I don't knowwhether or not you need to go
against the grain so much.
So, for example, there are alot of kids and maybe we did
this with Nick too like that areapplying for STEM, and maybe we
did this with Nick too likethat are applying for STEM.
They're all like science, tech,engineering, math, whatever.

(44:00):
And there's such a glut ofthese kids.
So is it worthwhile to sort ofplay up the contra contrarian
application where you're like no, I'm, I'm a liberal arts guy
and I really want to write, or I, you know, I have something
that's completely different,because they need to fill
English departments, too, withstudents.
Do you think that that'shelpful?

Susan Rhee (44:22):
I mean, I think it depends on the schools you're
applying to.
There are certain schools thatyou actually have to be admitted
into their engineering program,you have to be admitted into
their business school, and soyou can't sort of do a.
You know what is it?
Bait and switch like apply as ahumanities major.
Then all of a sudden you'rereally going to go to comp sci

(44:43):
and try to get into their STEMprogram Because some schools
don't let you switch between thecolleges within the university.
But hey, these kids are 17 or18.
Do they really know what theywant to do?
So there has to be a path forthem to be able to do that.
I don't think you can switchunless your rubric and your
story has shown that you want todo humanities.
Like if all you've been doingis comp sci and then all of a

(45:03):
sudden you apply as a humanitiesmajor.
That's sort of not going towork as far as your stories go.
These admissions offices arenot stupid.
They've seen it all Right, andso you know that was.
One of the benefits for Nick isthat he was not a STEM major
and he was not interested inSTEM and his interest was
English, and I do think thatmade his process a lot easier

(45:26):
than his STEM friends that areapplying for these coveted
engineering spots at all ofthese schools.

Sam Rhee (45:33):
How about the guy and we know someone who was an
accomplished pianist applied?
Submitted all of the you knowperformance tapes for music, met
everyone at the School of Musicyou know they loved him.
Got in and then flipped topre-med immediately when he got

(45:53):
into school.
Like, is that a bait and switch?

Susan Rhee (45:57):
Yes, because I think you listen.

Sam Rhee (46:00):
Is it wrong?

Susan Rhee (46:01):
I don't think it's wrong because I think if the
story works, listen, I feel.

Sam Rhee (46:05):
He was a very accomplished pianist.
It wasn't like he was lying.

Susan Rhee (46:07):
Right, and he went through auditions, he did all
that.
But I also feel like thecolleges have set up this game
and set up this system, andthese kids are just savvy enough
to figure out how to workwithin the system, which,
frankly speaking, is what you'regoing to have to do for the
rest of your life, whetheryou're in the corporate world,
medicine or whatever it is.
It's sort of seeking out thebest way to get to your end goal

(46:27):
.
And so, no, I don't think it'swrong, because he did go through
all the steps.

Sam Rhee (46:31):
Those auditions are not easy and you know he just
found a way to, you know, sortof get in, sort of the back door
.
Now, full disclosure.
Each of our kids had twocollege admissions counselors to
help them, one from Dwight, andthen we also hired a private

(46:54):
admissions counselor.

Susan Rhee (46:56):
They were for two very different things.

Sam Rhee (46:59):
Because people are going to listen to this and be
like, oh my god, these guys arelike Asian tiger parents who are
just gaming the system likenobody's business.

Susan Rhee (47:06):
Listen, I think that one of the things we were very
fortunate that, unlike mostpublic schools, dwight has a
dedicated counselor and only has18 to 20 students.
So they are working with themsince the summer of sophomore
year.
They're working on theircollege list, they're working on
their applications, they'reworking on their essays.
It's still a school.

(47:26):
They do not work in the summerand so with both of our kids
they were applying to a lot ofschools.
It was a lot of essays.

Sam Rhee (47:35):
How many schools did they each apply to?

Susan Rhee (47:36):
Sasha applied to 18 and Nick applied to 21.

Sam Rhee (47:39):
That's called shotgunning, isn't it?

Susan Rhee (47:41):
Well, I think that the college counseling office is
very smart in that they don'twant your list to be a list of
all nine IVs and one school thatyou're likely to get into,
because it is very possible thatyou will get rejected from all
nine, and so they want abalanced list.
So the more schools they had,sort of on the more difficult
spectrum, you needed to have abalancing list of schools that

(48:04):
were sort of targets for them orpretty likely they were going
to get in, which just addsschools which ends up in the
number that they ended up having.

Sam Rhee (48:12):
So they had a ton of schools.

Susan Rhee (48:13):
They had a ton of schools and what I told them was
, especially with Sasha, I saidlisten, you're taking a very
heavy course low senior year.
I don't know how you're goingto write all these essays and do
well in these classes.
And so we hired an essay coachto sort of get them through
where and, trust me, they arenot writing these essays for
their kids.
They had to write them all andthey would just meet with them

(48:35):
to sort of get ideas or do editshere and there.
But for me I loved it becauseit wasn't me nagging them to get
on their essays, they wereworking with someone that was
putting them on a sort oftimeline to get this stuff done.
Now, one kid did better with thetimeline, the other kid did not
.
We dragged the other one pastthrough the whatever, but they
all stuff done.

(48:55):
Now, one kid did better withthe timeline, the other person,
the other kid, did not.
You know, we dragged the otherone past, you know, through the
whatever.
But they all got done.
And so it was really more fromthat perspective that we I just
wanted most of them done beforethey had sort of a crushing load
of schoolwork for senior year.

Sam Rhee (49:11):
So if I don't have the resources to hire a bazillion
people, could I recruit peoplearound me and other people to
help reading these essays,helping you know, edit them,
providing commentary, helpingthem with deadlines, all that
stuff?

Susan Rhee (49:29):
Absolutely.
I mean, I think you know ifyou're interested in a certain
topic you've had a teacher, anEnglish teacher somewhere that
you've connected with in thefour years.
I know English teachers arevery happy to help students and
read it and you know, honestlyspeaking, all these prompts.
After the first five schoolsyou can kind of recycle the
essays and so once you have agood sort of framework, I think

(49:51):
you're pretty good to finish offthe rest of the essays.

Sam Rhee (49:55):
If we had to do it again, would we still hire a
bunch of people to do all thisstuff for us?
Yes, oh all right, let's talkabout the college application
process.
So we talked a little bit aboutthe early part of it.
They got negged and deferredand then they had to apply and

(50:15):
submit applications to a bunchof schools, right?
So they completed.
So they had a list of 20-someschools.
They only applied to one earlydecision.
They didn't get in.
Did they already finish theirapplications for all the other
schools?

Susan Rhee (50:29):
So what I told them was listen, depending on what
happens on that ED, you're goingto be in no mental state to
submit or do any essays.

Sam Rhee (50:37):
You'll be so sad.

Susan Rhee (50:38):
Yes, so they had everything done by mid-November
and they submitted them allBecause I was like, listen, if
you get in, we have a withdrawalparty, if you don't get in,
these are already in, you don'tneed to think about it.
So some people wait because itis expensive to apply to all
these schools.

Sam Rhee (50:55):
It's like $75 a pop, but you could at least get
everything done.
Not submitted.

Susan Rhee (51:01):
Yes, but you know how I am, so I didn't even want
them in that emotional state.
But if you didn't want to blowlike two grand or something, yes
, just have them done and thenif the outcome is not what you
desired, then you can just hitthe submit button and then just
get them all in before November,January 1st.

Sam Rhee (51:18):
And so they did that.
And this was the part where Iactually, for all the heartache
and waiting, probably was thebest growth part of it for the
kids and me in terms of figuringout, okay, my first choice is
not possibly available to me,what other schools could I

(51:41):
really see myself going to?
And I think that that was a biggrowing up process for our kids
and for me too, because it wasnot like, okay, mindless Duke,
there we go, done.
It was like, oh, doesGeorgetown look like a school
for me too?
Because you know, it was notlike, ok, mindless Duke, there

(52:03):
we go, done.
It was like, oh, doesGeorgetown look like a school
for me?
Does Tufts?
Does Boston College?
Does you know Maryland, theSyracuse?
Like they might have to fallback on one of the schools that
they hadn't considered before.
How many schools did they go toand when did they visit all of
these schools?
Was it beforehand?

Susan Rhee (52:24):
Yeah, so I think we started junior year for each of
them, and I think I have visitedover 18 schools.

Sam Rhee (52:31):
Now we have the resources to do that.
Yes, I think I have visitedover 18 schools.
Now we have the resources to dothat.
Was it worthwhile to do that?

Susan Rhee (52:37):
I think it was because they had so many schools
on the list that the visitsactually took schools off the
list where they were like no way, I can never see myself here.
So at least it whittled downthe list because there was no
sense in wasting your time for aschool that you would never
want to go to.
So it helped for that.

(52:57):
And I also think you know thesekids.
They either have a certain vibeat a school or they don't, and
so I feel like in their mind,going through this process, it
kind of put the schools in apecking order of yes, I could,
and I don't love it, but I couldgo if that was my only choice.

Sam Rhee (53:15):
So that helps.

Susan Rhee (53:16):
Yes.

Sam Rhee (53:18):
Very different from my parents, who never sent me to a
single school until after I gotadmitted.
I got admitted to three otherthan Ohio State, and so they're
like all right, you can visitthese schools, and then I just
visited.

Susan Rhee (53:31):
And a lot of people do that.
There's virtual tours you cando and people just wait to see
what they've, where they'vegotten in, and then they just
visit those schools.
So there's multiple ways youcan do it.

Sam Rhee (53:43):
Okay.
So let's actually talk aboutthe application.
So Sasha pulled and I can'twait because when Nick gets to
school I want him to pull hisapp, just so I could see what
they said.
I would imagine that a lot ofschools work similarly.
This is Duke's process, but Iwould imagine other schools sort

(54:03):
of work the same way.
The first thing is that thefirst page has obviously gender,
it has ethnicity, it has theircitizenship status in terms of
US citizen or not.
It has their date of birth, ithas their study, what their

(54:24):
intended major is you knowethics, philosophy, engineering,
what have you and they alsohave a couple different tags
which show you what they'reinterested in.
One tag is first generation,college.
One is first generation in theUnited States.
They have a general tagadversity.
Economic diversity is anothertag.

(54:46):
So they are looking for, arelooking for, different specific
types of demographics here, andso does that make you feel okay,
not okay when you see like theyactually have highlights
specifically in the app forapplicants who meet these
criteria.

Susan Rhee (55:07):
I mean, I think I don't feel one way or another,
but I think I just feel likethat's the reality of what we're
dealing with, not just incollege admissions but
everywhere in the world.
And so, and I think these kidsknow, like these kids are not
sort of head you know, heads intheir books and not observant of
what's going on around them,and so you know they know they

(55:30):
have friends that fit some ofthose boxes and they just don't.
They don't hold it against them, they just see it as listen.
That's just another part oftheir story.

Sam Rhee (55:40):
They also have tags for legacy siblings applications
, disciplinary action.
You know so pretty much if youyou better avoid any kind of
disciplinary action in highschool, because that's like a
deal killer, it looks like to me.
And then they also have ratingsbased on.

(56:01):
So they list your school, whathigh school you go to, how many
kids are in your class.
So there were 126 in Sasha'sclass.
They don't have a ranking, butI guess it's too early for rank,
so they just leave that blank.

Susan Rhee (56:16):
They don't rank at Dwight actually.
Yeah, but other schools mightright.

Sam Rhee (56:19):
If that's there, then they probably would put that
rank in.
They list their anystandardized score, and then
they also now have thecategories on which they do a
points evaluation.
So they have one, two, three,four, five, six numerical scores
.
One is C curriculum, and so wehad to sort of decipher this.

(56:42):
I assume it's basically howdifficult the curriculum is at
the school or what's offered atyour school.
So does that seem fair thatjust by virtue of what school
you go to, you might get a lowerranking in terms of what's
available for you, in terms ofyour resources?

Susan Rhee (57:03):
I mean, I think every admission event that I've
attended, I think they have thatin there also, because they've
realized that there are someschools in rural areas they
don't offer any AP testing andso they sort of have a good
rubric of each high school thatthey're getting these applicants
from and so they're notcomparing our school versus a

(57:25):
school that's somewhere ruralthat doesn't have those AP
scores.
So I think it's just so they'renot cross comparing.
So I think it's just so they'renot cross comparing.
So I think it's just for Sashawhat her school's sort of metric
is, because then they're goingto use that to compare it to how
did she were in that and howthey evaluate it are our

(57:46):
recommendations, and then E, cis extracurriculars, so they
will rank that.

Sam Rhee (58:03):
And then the other two which they are I guess
deemphasizing now is one isessays, I guess because of all
the AI stuff going on, sothey're not even going to be
ranking that as a numeric, butin Sasha's case they did.
And then T is testing.
So they basically scored everyaspect, these different aspects,

(58:24):
on a one to five basis and thenthey added it all up and then
you got a score and there weretwo people who looked at each
application.
So one person would look at it,give their total, the other
person would give their scores,total it up, and then the
aggregate, the two readers'scores, gave you a number.

(58:44):
And did you feel like this wasa fair way of assessing these
applicants?

Susan Rhee (58:49):
I mean, I think with the number of applications,
it's probably the only way to doit.
I think Duke was test optionaland they're still test optional.
So I think although they putthe scores down if you submit it
, they don't actually rank them,and so I was not surprised that
they did it this way.
I was surprised at sort of therankings, because I thought some

(59:12):
of them were kind of low.

Sam Rhee (59:16):
Which ranking was low.

Susan Rhee (59:17):
Like I thought, for her academics, like I'm not
really sure why she didn't getthe top score for that,
considering what her body ofwork was and so I'm not you know
.
So some of that was confusing.
And her recommendations Ithought they ranked her just
very average and she gotrecommendations from two

(59:39):
teachers that she's had a longhistory with at the school.
So why they just found them tobe average, I thought that was
kind of surprising.

Sam Rhee (59:52):
So, at least for Sasha , she ended up being deferred
and the comments that were madeat the end.
So they have comments and Iguess there's some supervisor
person who rereads theseapplications and then sort of
looks at the recommendationsthat these reviewers make and it

(01:00:16):
looked like there was apossibility, based just on the
comments, that she was going tobe rejected in the regular
decision.
So there is some leeway interms of individuality, like
it's not just a straight number,because if it was straight
numbers she might not havegotten in, even though her
numbers looked artificially.

(01:00:38):
I don't know the way that thoseguys rated it.
Um, the person who made commentshere actually knew Dwight
Englewood as a school and saidthat, um, she, she was one of
the strongest applications fromDwight.
Um, she was one of thestrongest applications from
Dwight, even though, and saidthe curriculum is about the best
she's going to do there.

(01:00:59):
So it seems like a lot of theseadmissions officers do know
these schools individually andthey do that.
They do take that intoconsideration.
We actually were privy tosomeone else who was kind enough
to give us their applicationand I don't think the numbers

(01:01:19):
were that much better, but hewas an admit and Sasha was a
deferred.
You know, maybe deny almostwhat makes you think these
people look at this and what isit that they're looking at that
maybe we're not seeing here.

Susan Rhee (01:01:31):
I mean, I think they look at the school you're
coming from and the school thatthis the friend of ours that he
was coming from is a very heavySTEM, very well-known school in
Bergen County and historicallythis school has gotten in four

(01:01:51):
to five kids to Duke during theearly decision process.
So it was not surprising to methat, even though on paper they
look the same, that he wasadmitted, you know, at Dwight,
we know there's only one studentthat has gone in, that has
gotten in every year for thelast four to five years and so,

(01:02:13):
and so I wasn't surprised thatthey might look the same on
paper.
But I also think it depends onthe school that you're coming
from.

Sam Rhee (01:02:21):
I think APs do seem to play a big role in terms of
judging academic rigor.
They listed that Sasha tookseven APs out of 18, including
advanced physics calculus.
That Sasha took seven APs outof 18, including advanced
physics calculus, and that shehad gotten fives on all of those
.
They had mentioned her captainof the soccer team for two years
.
All of these things do play arole in terms of when you get

(01:02:46):
down to the nitty gritty ofthese things, right?

Susan Rhee (01:02:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think they're looking for the
whole student right.
They want someone that'swell-rounded.
I also think theextracurriculars really help,
because if a student's veryinvolved and has been involved
in their high school, mostlikely they're going to come to
your campus and also be veryinvolved.
And what college doesn't want astudent that's going to be very
active within their community?

(01:03:09):
And so I think that they sortof see that as sort of a
precursor right, like if you didall these things in high school
, most likely the chances areyou're going to do this and give
back to the university as well.

Sam Rhee (01:03:22):
You know it's funny.
One of the comments they madeon our friend's application was
his essay about the skills forfantasy football being
transferable to other areas oflife was nicely written and well
crafted and I'm like there areprobably 5 million kids who are
into fantasy football whoprobably could use that essay.

(01:03:44):
But I guess it's really justabout how you write it.
It could be about anything.
I mean, fantasy football to meis one of the most mundane sort
of like you know, banal thingsyou could talk about, but
clearly he crafted it in a waythat was compelling.
So I think a lot of it has tojust be with your authenticity.
You don't have to findsomething noble and exotic in

(01:04:08):
order to write about it.
It literally could just beabout the fact that you love
fantasy football.
But if you write about it in areally real, true, authentic way
, they will like it.

Susan Rhee (01:04:20):
Listen, some of this stuff is you know you're
reading this essay that youspent hours drafting in five
minutes, so it has to besomething that's easy to read,
catches the eye and keeps theirinterest for five minutes.
Basically and who knows, thething is all random, so maybe
his reviewer at Duke lovesfantasy football too, like you.
Just don't know.

Sam Rhee (01:04:38):
What if they had not gotten into Duke, which is I
honestly thought neither of themwere going to After they both
got deferred, sasha, there wasno way.
And then after that, when Nickgot deferred, I was like there's
no way.
And both of them, I think, hadthought about USC, which they
did go to.
And a little part of me stillis like man, I wish I could

(01:04:59):
visit them at USC and hang outand in LA and you know, tailgate
at USC football games and Ithink that was so cool.
But obviously it's not my story.
It's not a story.
It doesn't really matter what Ithink as a parent, that's just
very selfish.
Do?

Susan Rhee (01:05:21):
you think they could have been more successful had
they gone to a different school?
I think they would have beensuccessful, no matter where they
went.
It could have been the lastschool on their list, if that's
what it came down to what wastheir last school.
I'm just kidding, I don't know.
And so I think the DNA and thesort of the personality traits
that got them to a position toeven apply to these schools,
that's not changing, no matterwhere they go, because at this

(01:05:42):
point that's in their rubric,that is who they are.
So they would do well no matterwhere they were.
And USC will always have sortof a really fond place in my
heart because it was the oneschool that both our kids got
into in January.
That just put the pressure off.
If everything went to hell in ahandbag, they were going to USC

(01:06:05):
, which is a school they bothreally liked.

Sam Rhee (01:06:07):
I loved it.

Susan Rhee (01:06:08):
Yeah, I mean what's not to like?
And so I think for Nick andSasha it was almost like half
the weight had been lifted offtheir shoulders because they
knew they were going to USC, nomatter what happened with Duke
and the other 10 schools thatthey applied to.

Sam Rhee (01:06:22):
Fight on.

Susan Rhee (01:06:23):
Exactly, that's all Sasha was saying for about two
and a half months, and so youknow.
But the interesting part of itis, in hindsight, now that
they're at Duke and he's goingto Duke, sasha said she would
have been happy at USC, butshe's so glad she's at Duke.
So it's one of those thingswith all these kids whatever
school they go to, they're goingto make it their own.

Sam Rhee (01:06:44):
What happens to the kid.
And we know a couple who justgot negged by every high choice
that they wanted to really go toand ended up going to their
sort of backup type school andwere absolutely crushed.
Just it just was sodisheartening for them.
Like how do you as a parentsort of help them through that,

(01:07:06):
how do you sort of deal withthat?
Like it's to feel like youfailed after all this effort at
age 18.
Like that's just soul crushing.

Susan Rhee (01:07:17):
I mean, I think it's sort of how the expectations
that you as a parent sets upright.
Like you know, we just kept ontelling our kids it does not
matter where you go to school,we don't care where you go to
school and that it doesn'tdefine you, and really just work
hard at where you are, and thenmaybe, if you want to go to
grad school, that is more of ameritocracy, that is more of

(01:07:39):
what you've done, whereas a lotof the college admissions
process is luck and it's randomto some extent, and so we were
very careful not to categorize aschool as good or not as good,
because to me, the onlyrequirement that I had on their
list was you better be happygoing to number 20, because that

(01:08:00):
could be where you end up.
I mean, you can say that you cansay that, but that's all you
can do, right?
It's just reinforce the factthat we're not going to be
disappointed, no matter wherethey go, if they don't get into
what they think is one of theirtop schools.
No matter where they go if theydon't get into what they think
is one of their top schools.
Listen, you can say all this,but it's kind of a grieving
process for them too.
They've put all this time fouryears of their life like blood,

(01:08:22):
sweat and tears.
You just need to give themspace to process it, and once
they process it, they will comeback around, but you need to
give them that time.

Sam Rhee (01:08:32):
How happy are you now that this process is over?
We don't have another child.

Susan Rhee (01:08:36):
Thank God we don't have another child.

Sam Rhee (01:08:38):
To go through this.

Susan Rhee (01:08:39):
Could you do it again?
No, Really.
I really could not do it again.
I think you know I'm so happythat they are at their number
one choices.
Selfishly, I'm very happy thatthey're together, together, but
sort of will be separate becauseit's a huge campus and Sasha's
going abroad for his firstsemester.
But you know, it would haveworked out either way, like if

(01:09:05):
he was at USC it would have beenfine too.
I mean, we were alreadyplanning trips out there and
whatnot, and so I'm happy thatthey're happy in where they are.
But I think they secretly alsoknow that if it had not worked
out, they would be fine too.

Sam Rhee (01:09:19):
What is the last piece of advice you could give to
someone who has a kid who's afreshman sophomore about to
start this process?
What would you tell the parentsof that child?

Susan Rhee (01:09:31):
You know, I would tell them that it's a long
process.
I would say that if you have afather and a mother in the
household that you choose oneparent to be the one that's
going to be the nagger, the onethat's sort of in the weeds with
the kid, because the kids needa release and a break so when
they're sick of you they can goto the other parent and talk
about trivial, mundane thingslike NBA games or whatnot.

(01:09:54):
So just have it be sort ofcentered on one person and to
just keep reminding them thatthis does not define them.
And do not call a school goodor bad.
Or you know you should have,you know you should have gotten
into a much better school.
Like, why didn't you get intothat school?
Because, at the end of the day,these kids have put everything

(01:10:17):
they have into it and theoutcome is really completely out
of their control at that point.

Sam Rhee (01:10:22):
Thank you for sharing your experience.
I really appreciate it.
I hope people listeningunderstand that, and if it turns
out to be a complete failure byyour child's standard, I think
you're right.
You have to lay the groundworkahead of time so that if that
happens, it's not the end, alland be all.

(01:10:45):
We heard of a kid at Andover orPhillips Academy, one of the
private schools up inMassachusetts who killed himself
after he didn't get into hischoice of schools.
He committed suicide, and therewas actually one.
There was another incident, Ithink, where someone tried to
and they stopped that otherstudent, and so this this is

(01:11:05):
very serious for kids like thisis heartstoppingly serious,
literally for these kids, and so, as parents, as much as it is
important to us, there's nothingmore important than just
supporting your kid, and if theyfail completely at the process
I have failed completely at manythings in my life Like many of

(01:11:25):
those things turned out to becatalysts for doing something
else, and so I hope one of thethings we can build into our
kids and I don't know how muchof a role or how good we did
with our kids.
I'm not sure We'll have to waitand see.
They've been pretty lucky sofar, it's just resilience after
failure, and so this is a longprocess.

(01:11:47):
Failure is always lurking aroundthe corner with this.
If they turn out, no matterwhere they end up going, I think
it has to be something where weas parents have sort of prepped
them to deal with it, andsometimes it works out great,
sometimes it doesn't.
I sympathize with every parentand every kid out there.

(01:12:10):
So good luck, and I hope thatthey all find where they're
meant to be so thank you there.
So good luck, and I hope thatthey all find where they're
meant to be.
So thank you, suze.

Susan Rhee (01:12:16):
You're welcome.