S05E108 Language & Identity as a Korean American with Sasha Rhee

Cultural identity exists in the spaces between languages, generations, and countries. When Sasha joins her father for this candid conversation, they unravel what it means to grow up Korean American through their distinct generational lenses.

Sasha, a third-generation Korean American with suprising Korean reading and speaking abilities, proudly embraces her heritage while acknowledging its complexities. Her father takes a different stance—having consciously distanced himself from certain Korean traditions he found restrictive growing up. Their dialogue opens a fascinating window into how immigrant families navigate cultural preservation across generations.

The conversation travels through unexpected territory: how the Korean language itself encodes hierarchy, making it impossible for children to argue with parents as equals; the traditional family genealogy book that's meant to pass through sons, not daughters; and the delicate balance of maintaining cultural touchpoints like birthday celebrations and food traditions while letting go of more restrictive practices.

What emerges is a thoughtful exploration of belonging. Is being "Korean enough" about language fluency, cultural knowledge, or something deeper? How do families decide which traditions to preserve and which to modify? When Sasha shares her plans for raising future children, she reveals how each generation must create their own relationship with heritage—keeping what resonates while making space for new cultural identities to emerge.

Whether you're navigating your own cultural hyphenation or curious about how immigrant identities evolve across generations, this episode offers a warm, honest look at the beautiful complexity of Korean American experience. Subscribe now and join our conversation about the cultures that shape us and the choices that define us.

#KoreanCulture #LearnKorean #KoreanAmerican #HeritageAndTradition #PodcastLife #CulturalIdentity #FamilyHeritage #AsianAmerican #BotoxAndBurpees #podcast @botoxandburpeespodcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Botox and Burpees.
I'm here with my ever-presentpodcast guest star, Sasha Rhee.
Welcome back, Sasha.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Yes, today we're going to talk about something
that's a little different,probably a little more
personalized.
It's about the Korean languageand growing up in America and
dealing with learning the Koreanlanguage or not learning the
Korean language, as the case maybe, and sort of how our
experiences are with that.

(00:30):
I am someone who was born inthe United States, but my
parents moved to the UnitedStates from South Korea about a
year or two before I was born.
You obviously were born to twoparents who grew up in the
United States me and Susan soobviously our perspectives on
this are a little bit different.
So, to start off, let's talkabout your knowledge of the

(00:54):
Korean language and how good areyou in terms, or comfortable
are you, about speaking Korean?

Speaker 2 (01:01):
So everyone that I meet who's like you, like the
child of Korean immigrants, likeall my friends at like Duke,
who are like that generation,they all say the same phrase,
which is like you're really goodat Korean, for like a third
generation kid which so most ofthem have parents that who
immigrated from Korea.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
So they're like you, okay, because.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
I guess the way it works is like first generation
is you're the first generationto live in America.
Okay, and then second and thenthird, so I'm third, so I'm
second and so they're tellingyou for a third generation.
You're pretty good at koreanyeah, like some of them are
really surprised because Ihappen to know like a lot of
slang.
I know a lot like I, like I'mup to date with like the curve,
the comment, like the commonerkorean, like just how people

(01:39):
speak usually.
But in terms of like my actualspeaking ability, I can read and
write fluently, which a lot ofpeople are surprised by, because
usually it's the reverse whenit comes to people learning a
language, and then myunderstanding is not bad and my
speaking is not good.
My grammar is like horrible sowhat do you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:56):
by what level is it like?
Are you at?
I would say, in terms ofreading and writing, I'm fluent
like a third grade level, at afifth grade, like a high school
level.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, that's like I can.
Okay my writing is like at ahigh school, like middle school
level oh, get out my writing isreally good, and then my reading
is like perfect.
I can read for as long as youneed me to okay so my reading
I'm I promise you I'm veryliterate like I could read for
days and days and days, becausehow many combinations are there?

Speaker 1 (02:21):
all right, I'm pulling out a out a Korean text
on like philosophy, like theexistential philosophy.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
I will not understand what I'm reading, but I could
read it for days.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
Okay, and then you're .

Speaker 2 (02:30):
My comprehension is like advanced elementary, like
middle school, I want to say,and then my speaking is like a
kindergartner, which is when Istopped Korean school.
So Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
What kind of slang words do you use all the time in
Korean?

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Okay what kind of slang words do you use all the
time in Korean?
Well, I don't use them, but Iknow them.
Like, for instance, like inKorea, they really like iced
Americanos.
It's like no matter the season,and so they call it like ah,
like iced Americanos, like thefirst syllable of each one, that
like there's, like baebak,which means like awesome, like
horror, which means like whoa.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
And where'd you learn all of this slangy Korean?

Speaker 2 (03:10):
From K like horror, which means like, whoa, like.
And where'd you learn all ofthis slangy korean?
From k-pop?
Okay, so did you learn all ofyour korean from k-pop?
So obviously you know this.
But so, like my mom's, mymaternal grandmother like raised
like didn't raise me, but shewas around the house a lot
because both my parents workedwhen I was younger and, like my
mom would travel, my dadobviously go to the office.
So I first picked up koreanfrom her.
Like mom has like anecdotes inthat journal that you guys wrote
when I was like two saying likeI think sasha's confusing
korean and english because shespeaks I think she's speaking a

(03:33):
little bit of korean at likepreschool and whatever.
So I first picked it up throughgrandma and then they said you
guys sent me to korean schoolfor like five years.
So I did Korean school.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
And that was from when to when.
Like what grades?

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I studied at the same kindergarten level the entire
time.
I think it was like five to ten.
I want to say Four to eight,maybe.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Four to nine yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
So I did Korean school for a while.
That's what taught me to readand write.
And then I like stopped Koreanschool and I got into K-pop
around like 12, 13, like I wantto say, 13.
And then that also likewatching YouTube videos of my
favorite Korean artists, likethat also then kind of like kept
me up to date with, like helpedme practice a little bit.
Why do you care about learningKorean?

(04:17):
Well, k-pop wasn't because Icared about learning Korean.
K-pop was because, like, Ienjoyed it a lot and it just
happens that they're young andthey use slang and you pick up
on it.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
I think for me, like learning it when I was younger
was not on my mind, like we justwere forced to go to Korean
school, basically, and Nick andI particularly did not enjoy it.
If we're being honest, I thinknow it's I've kind of given up
on learning it honestly, fullyand ever becoming fluent and
like advancing my level.
But I don't know some part ofme because it's like my

(04:45):
background and like I at leastknow some of it.
I want to like at least maintainthat, like I don't want to
forget it why, because it's partof my heritage, I feel like
being Korean is very importantto me it is yes, why?
I'm very proud to be a Koreanreally yeah, I find a lot of
pride in it, like I don't knowif it's because, like my
grandparents immigrated fromKorea, or just like when we went

(05:06):
I had like such an amazing timeand I feel like I thought
honestly we weren't that Korean,which is like because we're
very American.
But then when we went to Koreaand we went into that little
museum I don't know if youremember, we went to like a
little museum that like wentthrough a life cycle of like a
Korean person, from like thefirst birthday, the first
birthday, all the way to likethe traditions you do when
someone dies or whatever.
I like realized we like didmore than I thought and like the

(05:28):
way we operate in our lives ismore Korean than I thought.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
Like what.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, one like I just I don't know Like I forgot we
had like a first birthday andall that.
Oh yeah, we did the rice cakesoup like, whatever, like things
like that, where I was like, oh, like we still do a lot of
things for the fact that I'm twogenerations now removed from
the people that lived in Korea.
So I feel like being Korean isvery important to me.
I just think it's alsoimportant to have pride in your

(05:53):
culture and I feel like Koreahas grown so much and evolved
and like there are obviouslydownsides to it, but I feel like
neglecting that is like there'sno point are most of your
friends Korean.
I do most of my friends like.
I have definitely more koreanfriends than anyone else but I
still have like a diverse group.
But there is that culturalconnection still with my korean

(06:13):
friends are there any downsidesto being a korean american?
I think one of the downsides ofmy being my generation, third
generation, is the language Likehow.
Just that the priority, or Iguess the way I was raised, like
because you know, mom is fluentin Korean, because, like
grandma literally does not speakany English, like I guess, like

(06:37):
for me the difference, or whichI see kind of as a downside, is
that like the language hassomewhat Fade not faded, but
like isn't.
Like Nick and I are not asfluent, but we can obviously
learn on our own, but I thinkit's like that type of aspect is
different.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
I think you have a different perspective.
First, of all my two brothersare way worse at Korean than you
are and they're and my motherspoke 99% Korean.
I think a lot of it wasconscious, or maybe not
conscious, but there were.
It was deliberate on my partnot to lean in on being Korean

(07:18):
or growing up Korean or leaninginto Korean culture or the
Korean language for a bunch ofreasons, and those reasons seem
to be different than yourreasons about wanting to be very
proud about you know, having aKorean culture and a Korean
background.
Does this, but does any of thatreally help you in life?

Speaker 2 (07:41):
I mean, I don't think like I'm proud.
I want to be proud like I'mproud to be a Korean, because
like it will somehow help me inlife.
It's not like I feel like it'slike not something that gives me
like extrinsic value of likethis is going to like give me
more money or help me succeedmore or whatever.
It's just like something that Ifeel like is intrinsic to your
identity.
It's intrinsic to who, at leastI am.

(08:02):
It's intrinsic to who at leastI am and I have.
I feel like Korean culture hasled me to such so many great
communities and like friendshipsand relationships in my life.
I mean, I'm also biased becauseyou know, like I did a Korea
Finance Society fellowship, forinstance, you know, which builds
on that intrinsic value of likebeing Korean, and I guess there
is some extrinsic value to that, but I really think like it's

(08:23):
nothing about advancing orleading to other results, it's
more of an intrinsic thing.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Wouldn't it just be more useful to learn Spanish or
another language other thanleaning into Korean?

Speaker 2 (08:36):
honestly, I mean my Spanish is better than my Korean
in terms of like, likevocabulary.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, Like I took Spanish for a really, really
long time.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
I mean like Duke offers Korean, like I took
Spanish for a really, reallylong time.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
I mean like Duke offers Korean, and I took
Spanish wasn't it good that Itaught you, I forced you to take
Spanish instead of Latin whenyou uh had a language choice
early on in your academic career?

Speaker 2 (08:56):
yes, but I also think making the direct comparison
between Korean and Spanish isvery different how so?
Well, at least from myperspective, because, like, I am
Korean and in my everyday lifecurrently maybe not in my
professional life later on, butin my area, like currently, if I
was more fluent in Korean, thatwould be a lot, that would just
like advance a lot of parts ofmy life, like whether it's like

(09:17):
my relationship with, likegrandma or like things like that
, or like my own personal likeperception of myself and me
being Korean.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
One of the things that Korean culture does or
leans into pretty heavily aregender differences misogyny.
There is a lot of misogyny inthe Korean culture, so why would
you even lean into learning theKorean culture or being part of
it, when they literally treatwomen so much worse than men?

Speaker 2 (09:48):
I think there's like a tension between it because,
like I said, like intrinsicallywe are still, our roots are
still in Korea and, like I am aKorean person, not because of
like choice, but because, likethat is the ethnicity that I was
born with.
Obviously, korea is an extremelypatriarchal country.
I've done a lot of research onthis, I've written a lot of
papers about this, like I'veread a lot of books about this,

(10:11):
about how Korea, for instance,has like the number one gender
pay gap in the world.
But I think then that's where itadds to my nuance of I'm not
just like blindly like wow, likeI want to, like, maybe when I
was younger and more naive, butnow I appreciate the nuance of
being a Korean American morebecause of like being American
makes me cognizant of, like myKorean heritage, like living in

(10:35):
America makes you cognizant oflike certain things in Korea,
like you said, like thepatriarchy where there is like
that tension in like America,let's like has like a better, um
, like pay gap, for instance, orlike things like that.
Like I feel America, let's likehas like a better, like pay gap
, for instance, or like thingslike that.
Like I feel like it's not likeme wanting to learn Korean is
like I want to live in Koreasomeday, like I want to like
become a full you know what Imean like a Korean citizen and
all that.

(10:55):
It's more just like adding, Ithink, to like what it means to
me to be Korean American andit's like a different it.
They both kind of work intandem.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
I would say someone would argue that you're kind of
whitewashing the Korean culturethat way.
You're picking and choosing theaspects that you like but you're
not actually sort of beinghonest in terms of the fact that
there's so much about theKorean culture which is very
negative and can be verydifficult to deal with, very

(11:27):
negative and can be verydifficult to deal with.
The language dictates how youthink and the language itself.
When you look at how they speakabout men and women, like the
terms men and women or husbandand wife are literally different
.
Like the literal translation ofhusband is like outside person
and the translation for wife islike inside person.
Like woman is not supposed tobe out, like they're supposed to

(11:49):
be cloistered inside the housedoing housework, men are the
ones, literally, by the languagedefinition, are the ones who
are out doing things.
So it's that kind of issue inthe language that dictates how
people think in that culture andthat culture you can't separate
and say, oh, I like this partof, I like the kimchi, but I

(12:12):
don't like the bulgogi of theKorean language or the Korean
culture and so I'm just going topick and choose this, that, but
not really acknowledge thispart.
That is really where I thinkpeople could argue that you're
just kind of a dilettante whenit comes to, like, picking out
what is Korean to you well what.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
I don't appreciate that, but I honestly think, like
I don't really know whatsolution you're trying to get at
, to like respond to this typeof argument like what.
So then, like my, what I shoulddo instead is just lean into
fully being american.
And because korean language,for instance, is like that, like
I shouldn't try to learn or Ishouldn't try to like continue

(12:54):
to advance my skills with thatlike there are a lot of things
where, like we live in america,yeah, we contribute to
capitalism, for instance, quietworking things, like that people
can make the argument thatthat's a horrible system.
You know that there's a lot ofinequity that you, by being upon
you, mean by contributing andnot like whatever.
Like part of it is justacknowledgement instead of just

(13:15):
refusing or turning away.
I feel like from the entireconcept in of itself.
Like I feel like being awareone of like I talk all the time
to my friends about, like thepatriarchal standards of Korea.
Like if you're Korean, you knowhow horrible Korea is to women.
You can't like not know unless,like you are misogynistic.
But just because I feel likeit's better for me to be aware
and acknowledge it and like beunderstanding of that than

(13:37):
rather just like ignore beingKorean and pretend like I'm not,
like I don't know what thesolution would be then.
To that, pretend that I'm notKorean, turn away like I'm not
learning this language becauseof that, like some people might
respond that way, but personallyI don't see that and I get
called whitewashed all the timeand genuinely like I think that
like sometimes, oh yeah, you canadmit that, but it's not

(13:58):
something that I necessarilylike chose.
A lot of the factors that havecontributed to it are how I was
raised, how you know, I meanlike where I was raised, what
location like even the town inJersey that we live in versus,
like Fort Lee is very different,and so, like I think that these
are all things that for me toturn away and completely be like
, well, I'm just going to not beKorean, then, like you know,
not advance my language skillsand not care about learning the

(14:20):
language, I feel like that's noteven anything better.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
I don't think you have to make a conscious choice
to turn away, but the issue isis that you were raised not
Korean on so many levels and tome, having seen what it means to
grow up, korean people don'tunderstand how limiting that is
as a child, when the system isset up that you must have

(14:48):
absolute obedience to yourparents.
There's no free will or choicefor kids, like if you see very
traditional Korean parents.
They will dictate everythingthat you do, all of your study,
where you go, what you do.
You can't literally do anythingwithout the dictates of your
parents.
I remember my parents when mymother and father got married,

(15:13):
she had to live at my father'sparents' house, even though my
father had to.
He immigrated to the UnitedStates but because she was now
property essentially propertyand, quote, no longer part of
her family but now part of herhusband's family, she had to go

(15:33):
and live with my father'sparents, serve them, clean for
them, cook for them, do all thatstuff, because that is the way
the Korean culture works and shehad no choice.
So many of the choices I made,either consciously or
unconsciously, in terms ofgrowing up, in terms of raising
you guys, was not to be part ofthat.
I really wanted to give youguys choices in terms of growing

(15:57):
up.
That's American, that isuniquely American in most
cultures.
Like, I don't think there are alot of cultures that I see on
the immigrant side where you canallow your children that
freedom to grow, to be happy, tofollow what they want to do,
and so when I see a lot ofpeople who are nostalgic for the

(16:19):
old country or this is the wayit used to be, for people it was
better I don't find that thecase at all.
I'm not saying turn away fromKorea or Korean culture, but I
don't think people reallyunderstand what it means to be
Korean.
To be Korean is so restrictivethat society is tight and you
don't have a lot of freedom, andso you have that luxury of

(16:39):
looking at it from an outsideperspective, of being someone
who could make that choice ofwhether you wanted to or not.
I have friends who were forcedto go to Korea and learn, and
they couldn't do sports, theycouldn't do anything else.
They had to go, learn Korean,go back to Korea, study
engineering, whatever it was,because that was the Korean way.

(17:00):
And so it is one thing to lookout from the outside and say, oh
, this is nice.
It's another thing to have tobe forced to be in that system.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Well for one, for you to say that I'm like a blind
outside looking like I'm goingto be so real.
You cannot Like I am not likenostalgic for the old country,
do not want to live.
You know what I mean.
Like I don't like me.
Saying I am korean is a fact interms of like my ethnicity.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Ethnicity is me being korean sure, just like you're a
woman yeah, like me, like, andan american and with black hair.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, it's, like that's my national, like these
are just like like whatever likefacts about, like who I am and
like where I came from and likethings that, like I was born
like you know, like with twopeople with Korean heritage and
that's not something like Inecessarily chose, that doesn't
necessarily mean that I like.
When I say like I am Korean andlike I want to learn the
language, that does not at allimply that like I necessarily
want to like go back to the olddays, which I don't know what

(17:56):
that means, like pre-war,post-war, like I don't want to
like that doesn't mean I want togo back to it.
I feel like that is one of likethe tensions of being like
korean american is acknowledging, obviously, like I said, like
how horrible korea treats womenlike still today in the working
place, like the sacrifices ofmotherhood in a career and
things like that.
But just me saying like like mewanting to learn the language
does not necessarily mean that Iwant to like continue to

(18:18):
perpetuate what like a lot ofthe stereotypes that korea can
continue to put through.
I am not saying that I wish Iwas born in korea or that I wish
oh, I'm not saying that yeah,and I like that.
Those are all things where it'slike, like people that say
sometimes people say I'm korean,not because, like that doesn't
necessarily mean they'renostalgic for it.
I feel like it's different whenI see people which I've heard a

(18:39):
lot of people who are not korean, not of korean ethnicity, have
no familial or no relations atall to the country, and they're
the ones who are like oh well,korea is so amazing, like Korea
is like the perfect country andthings like that.
That's very different, I feellike.
But I feel like a lot of KoreanAmericans do feel that tension
and like, yes, like being raisedin America allows you access to

(19:01):
so many opportunities, like theAmerican culture is much more
forgiving, like you said, ofpeople pursuing their passions
and grades, not being everythingand not making you go to like
after school, for instance, andstudies like 9 pm, like those
are a lot of things.
But I think simultaneously,there is still the feeling of
some Korean Americans where it'slike but it is difficult when
you're not able to communicatewith your grandparents, for

(19:21):
instance, like things like that,I think, which are like nuanced
tensions, that just saying like, like saying I'm proud to be
Korean, is not necessarily likeerase all of that either.
Like it's hard to acknowledge Ifeel like everything in one
statement, but that doesn'tactually mean that I'm not going
to be proud to be Korean in myown right and how I was raised
in that mix of cultures.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
I think being in that mix is what makes it much
better.
That's the thing like leaninginto the Korean side.
I've seen even your generationkids who, or their families
who've leaned, who are KoreanAmerican.
They live in the United States,they are US citizens, but they
self-isolate into Koreancommunities, just like the Fort

(20:04):
Lees or the Palisades Parks,where they're not really
engaging on the American cultureside, but it's almost as if
they're still living in Seoul.
And those are the people that Ilook at and I have real
difficulty with in terms of ohyeah, korea is so great.
You know, you're rah-rah Korea.

(20:25):
I'm leaning into Koreaneverything.
Those are the people I thinkthat are really not
understanding what it means tobe Korean American.
And for me, yes, those arepeople who would look at me and
say this guy is not Korean, noteven a little bit.
But on that side, as you said,I'm actually more Korean than

(20:46):
most people think.
I just don't sit there and makethat my life or the way I feel
like I should be living my life.
I think that this is where Idon't love people who look down
on other Korean Americans forbeing too quote white or not
Korean enough.
And so there's a very slipperyslope where I see a lot of

(21:08):
people who judge other KoreanAmericans because of their lack
of Korean-ness, and I wouldactually criticize them for
leaning a little bit too much onthe Korean culture side and
saying, hey, listen, you guysreally need to understand the
quote.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Like you said, tensions that are involved and
maybe sort of recalibrate alittle bit I mean, I also will
say, like I've literally heardfor my like almost 20 years of
life, like you could not like,literally, I think every single
year of my life I've heard likeyou are not great enough, like
you're super white, like allthese statements like I've heard
a thousand times still incollege.
They don't bother me, though,because I acknowledge that, like

(21:44):
, my connection to the koreanculture is probably a lot weaker
and a lot different than likethese people who I feel like
these families are talking about.
They're kind of like how you'relike, the same generation of
your family, like the parents,are korean immigrants and the
kids who are like my age now arelike you, where they're like
kind of navigating.
They were born in america buttheir parents were not like.
I obviously do think that it'svery Like.

(22:07):
How we view them is probablylike very different from how
they view us, and you know thereis some bias in the sense that
what they did is different fromthe choice that you made, and so
people just make differentchoices and how they want to
raise their kids in America andhow they want to live in America
and how they want to navigateAmerica itself.
But I mean, like you bring up apoint where it's like if you
really want it to be that Koreanand just stay in Korea.

(22:29):
But again, they also have a lotof nuanced tensions where it's
like well, financially it mightbe, you know better.
In America, for instance, maybethey don't want to go to the
army.
Like you know, there are stillnuanced tensions on both sides,
I think.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
I think the issue is is that these are people who
want to take advantage of a lotof American benefits.
Like the Korean, educationsystem is super rigid and most
kids end up not being able toachieve what they really want to
because the entrance exams forcolleges are impossible.
The pressure is enormous.

(23:01):
We think that there's a lot ofpressure in college or in the
college admissions process inthe United States.
Just wait till you look atthese kids growing up in Korea
the tutoring, the studying, theamount of psychological pressure
that the system puts on them.
A lot of families will come tothe United States because you

(23:22):
know there are so many avenuesto success in America that you
don't have in Korea.
It's very rigid.
In most universities youliterally have to have somebody
die in order to take for aposition to open up.
You can't create your ownopportunities.
It's like that in Europe andmany countries as well.
A lot of the opportunities thatAmerica has are not available

(23:44):
either because of a cultural orsystems issue in a bunch of
different countries.
So they come here.
But if you're going to come here, I honestly feel like and maybe
this is because I grew up inOhio and I grew up in a very
non-Korean society.
My parents did hang out withtheir group of Korean friends
and that's all they did, but Inever felt like leaning into

(24:06):
that side would help me on anylevel, and I don't think it
really has on any level.
Now, culturally, am I morebereft because I didn't learn
more Korean or more Koreanlanguage skills.
I went to Korean school, justlike you did.
For a bunch of years I did goto Korea and visited.
We do have a bunch of Koreancultures and customs which I

(24:26):
don't think are bad.
Like I don't think to a certaindegree, respecting your elders
is a bad thing.
In a lot of ways it's veryimportant, but I don't think
that sort of blind you, of blinddevotion that you're supposed
to do is appropriate.
So I personally have picked andchosen the things that I think

(24:57):
are appropriate and are helpfuland are also touch points for
our family in terms of culturalthings.
Just like all families haverituals, they all have special
things that they do, whetherit's something they've made up
or something that's sort of beenpassed down on their families,
and what I have liked I couldhave learned Korean a lot more
over the years.
I never chose to because I neverfelt like it was like yes,
could I have spoken to myparents better?

(25:18):
Yes, but did I really likespeaking Korean?
One of the biggest issues I hadabout learning Korean was I
didn't think it was a veryequitable language.
So when you speak in Korean,the way you speak to someone
older than you, as you know, andthen someone who's your peer or
who's lower in status to you isvery different.
So, literally, the words, theway you phrase things, you can't

(25:42):
argue with your parents thesame way in Korean as you could
in English.
When we argue as a daughter,father, in English, that
language that we use when youspeak to me, I speak to you is
the same vocabulary, it's thesame sentence structure, it's
the same wording.
But if we were to speak inKorean and you were arguing with

(26:05):
me, you literally have adisadvantage as my daughter
because you cannot use the samewords, sentence structure and
phrasing.
You literally have to use wordsthat make you subservient to me
, because otherwise it is hugelydisrespectful and it's crazy.
And so when I would argue withmy mother like there's no way I
was going to speak Korean to her, I was going to.

(26:26):
She would speak Korean to me,but I was no way I was going to
speak English, because there'sthat that tone that I would have
to use or that phrasing wouldnever make it worthwhile to
argue Like you automaticallylose.
You know by the.
You know when you're saying oh,if it pleases you, mother, and
she's like shut up, like there'sno way it's going to be.

(26:47):
Even so there was a lot ofdisincentive for me as I was
growing up to learn Korean.
I just didn't want to learnKorean because I never felt like
it put me in an advantage forany reason.
I mean, when you speak toKoreans Korean you're speaking
in a different way.
You're speaking to yourgrandmother.
You're speaking to your peersyou're speaking.
You know, you're learning itthrough K-pop.

(27:09):
That's a completely differentmotivation and a set of
circumstances that I neverreally had.
So I understand why you wouldwant to do that, but I'm sure
you could also understand why itwas difficult for me and why my
perspective is different interms of what it means to me.
So what are you going to dowith your kids when they grow up

(27:34):
?
What Korean customs are yougoing to carry on?
What kind of language skillsare you going to encourage for
them?
You didn't.
You didn't like doing koreanlanguage school.
Would you have wanted us tocontinue that for you?

Speaker 2 (27:48):
I mean I like a lot of things we do when we're
younger like you and nick talkedabout it in your episode and
you and mom did too.
We're, like we did kumon, forinstance, and like I guess kumon
is kind of similar to thisthing in Korea called hagwon,
but it's not as intense.
It's just, you know, likesupplementary work for school
per se, and like Nick and I alsodidn't like that, like I think
I cried way more about kumonthan I ever did about Korean

(28:10):
school and we still stuck withit.
And now Nick and I, I think,are both very thankful that we
were put in it and that ithonestly had a very large impact
, I think, on our trajectory inschool and how I viewed like
STEM subjects and my capabilityof doing math, for instance.
I mean, I think a lot of italso.
Like it's hard to predictbecause a lot of it depends on,
like who I marry, for instance.

(28:31):
Like what do they want?
Like do they?
Are they Korean?
Even?
Like if they're not Korean,then do they speak a language?

Speaker 1 (28:38):
So you must have a lot of friends who have one
Korean parent, one non-Koreanparent, right?

Speaker 2 (28:43):
I mean, I have probably more than your
generation, but it's notnecessarily like both parents
speak another language, like.
I see a lot of like half white,half Korean, where it's not
like the tension of like well,do we teach our kids English or
Korean, you like it's?
It's a little bit differentthan like.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
If you had, for instance, like so what are their
korean language skills like, orhow do they approach the korean
culture and as part of theirlife or their heritage.
I mean it's very different.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
I've met half korean, like half korean americans, who
have spoken better korean thanme.
I've also met I mean I've metfull koreans who are my
generation, who speak way lessthan me, know nothing.
I mean this is also thespectrum of it's very much what
the parents make it.
Not all second generationkoreans are, you know, are the
same.
Not all third generation koreanamericans are the same, like I

(29:26):
think it very much that's likevery much dependent on the
parent.
Like I've met, I know a couplelike whatever, like you know,
like white asians, like whitekoreans, who the mom is korean
and so she, you know it wasreally important to her, so she
was a lot more influential inlike the upbringing and that's
why the kids speak literallybetter Korean than me.
I've also met ones where, like,the dad is Korean and the mom's
white and, you know, somehowthat dynamic led it to their

(29:48):
kids knowing nothing and notreally being culturally immersed
in it.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
What would your choice be?

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Let's suppose whether you marry someone who's Korean
or not Korean, what would youlike your children to know in
terms of their Korean heritage?
I mean, I think the reality ofit is like I have a lot of other
things that I want to do in mylife and the priority of, like
me becoming fluent in Korean isnot that large of a priority and
like so I think, because ofthat reality, like there is no
way that my kids will ever befluent in Korean unless I send
them, you know, I mean like to alike intense.
You know I mean like to a likeintense.
You know I'll say, live inkorea, like go to intensive
korean boot camp, which isprobably not going to happen for
me as, like a mother I feellike in the future would you

(30:23):
like them to learn or becomefluent in korean like is that?

Speaker 1 (30:25):
would that be a plus for you?

Speaker 2 (30:26):
there's, just like it's.
I can't really wrap my headaround it because I'm not like
there's.
I don't know many people wherethe kid is better at a language
than the parent per se and likeI think that's just a reflection
on like parent dynamics andwhatever.
And so honestly, for me, likewhat's being what's more
important is like I don't like,I feel like just like
understanding the culture and asense of like understanding,

(30:48):
like why we are creating, likethe story of like you know, like
the grandparent, like mygrandparents, emigrating, which
would be theirgreat-grandparents, like how we
came to America, like I feellike for me, understanding the
stories and why, like my kidsare who they are in the future
and why they are like the fourthgeneration to live in America,
hopefully, and things like that.
I feel like that culturalcomprehension and understanding

(31:10):
and just both theacknowledgement, awareness, but
also the appreciation of wherethey came from.
I feel like that is inherentlytied to my Korean heritage and
having them understand that isinherently tied to my Korean
heritage and having themunderstand that is more
important.
Obviously, I will probably havemy kids eat Korean food.
I will obviously hopefully atleast take them to Korea if I

(31:31):
can at one point in their lives.
There are things like that, Ifeel like, which aren't
necessarily.
You don't need to know thelanguage to be appreciative of
your roots.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
You've mentioned at school that there are different
groups of Asian students oneswho sort of lean very like maybe
they were internationalstudents who have come overseas,
others who, as you said, arevery sort of into whatever
heritage or culture that they'rein, and then others who are way

(32:03):
less so, and I feel like you'vementioned that you don't really
love it on either side.
So what is it about, say,international students who come
from Korea, who are in theUnited States?
What is it that you don't loveabout sort of those aspects of
their culture?

Speaker 2 (32:24):
I mean in my own like I feel like one, it's really
hard to make generalizations.
Like I've met a lot ofinternational kids who went to
high school in Korea through mycareer finance study fellowship
and I didn't even know or Icouldn't even like my first
impression of impression of themwas that, like they went to
high school in America, forinstance, and I think that that
does still speak to the spectrumof not all international

(32:44):
students argue necessarily fitthis stereotype.
I mean, like I will say, themajority of my interactions with
Korean international studentsat Duke.
I think there's just like a lotof judgment per se of like not
being Korean enough, which Ithink is speaks to also other
cultures.
Like I feel like there's somuch media out there for people
feeling like they're not, youknow like Indian enough or not

(33:06):
black enough, or you know likenot Hispanic enough, and that's,
I think, just like a commonthread among all people who grew
up in a country versus growingup in America.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
What do you have to do to be Korean enough?
Do you think in their eyes?

Speaker 2 (33:22):
I mean, and so that's why I have an issue with it,
because I don't really know whatthat means Like, does that mean
that my like that you knowgrandma and grandpa does it
start with them not leavingKorea, or does it start, you
know, is it all on me and Ishould have done it even if I
started in America?
Like that's a very complicatedquestion, which is why I have an

(33:46):
issue with it, because I thinkit's very hard to make that type
of blanket statement, but atthe same time, I do think that
it is really hard being, it canbe difficult transitioning as a
Korean international student toAmerican universities, I mean
even how people dress, like howcollege is structured, and so I
think that I push back a lotmore on them and were more hard
on them when I was in certainthings.
Because, at the end of the day,like I am who I am because of

(34:24):
how I was raised and whatgeneration Korean American I am,
and you, could say the samething.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
For that, let me put up an example of a Korean
cultural tradition and ask youhow to resolve this, because
this is actually somethingthat's been going on in our
family and I've actually talkedto it with some of my friends
who are not Korean and they havevery mixed views, like they've
given me opinions aboutresolution of this, and it's
been very different.

(34:46):
And this is the genealogy bookwhich we've talked about.
So in the Korean tradition,your genealogy is written in
this tome or textbook orwhatever it is, this public book
and basically all of yourancestors, as far back as you
can remember, is written in itand it's shared and then it's
passed down from generation togeneration and it has basically

(35:08):
your family tree listed in it.
We were talking about as afamily and my mother said that
this has to be passed on to Nick.
So my father's the oldest son,I'm the oldest son of our
generation and so it would cometo me, but then, when it came to
me after me, it would go toNick, because he is the son the

(35:42):
son, not the daughter who youare, even though you are the
oldest child.
So to resolve this, what wouldbe the solution?
Should it go to Nick andrespect the Korean cultural
tradition, or should it go toyou, because this is the way the
tradition should actually beupheld, is going to is to change
you, you know, because not alltraditions have to be the same.
Traditions change over time.
Should it go just to the oldestchild regard, regardless of

(36:04):
gender?

Speaker 2 (36:06):
I mean, obviously as the oldest child in this
situation, like I'm biased.
I think I cared a lot more whenI was younger.
I'm honestly kind of over it.
I don't really care aboutgetting the book anymore because
, at the end of the day, likethe book is gonna die with our
generation why, why not?
Whatever, like it's not goingto like have the same value
necessarily.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
I think like we could keep it the same value like
keeping it, but I mean I meanit'd be written in english yeah,
like, for instance, like thatlike, so what?

Speaker 2 (36:30):
things like that, where I feel like it, like, at
least for nick it won't, like hewon't care as much about it as,
let's say, like Grandpa did andlike or they'll care about it
in very different ways.
Like for Grandpa, it's likethis is like, this is ingrained,
this is going to affect mychildren's names, and that's
true For Nick.
You know our generation.
It's more like oh, this is likea cool thing from like our

(36:51):
family and like, I think, forwhat we want to do with it.
And so what would yoursuggestion be in terms of how
should we interpret this?
I mean, obviously, like for me,in terms of like, breaking
tradition, like I think thereare some traditions that need to
be broken.
I mean, look at the world today.
Tradition is not necessarilyforever set in stone.

(37:12):
I mean, the tradition 50 yearsago was that women were not
really in investment banking,and the tradition 50 years ago
was that women were not reallyin investment banking.
And I am now a woman going intoinvestment banking.
Now we see women, female CEOs.
I mean look at the CEO ofCitibank, for instance.
She's a woman.
So it's like things like that.
I think it's obviously for meI'm going to be like we should
just break the tradition, like Ishould get it, like whatever.
I mean I'm over it in the sensethat I don't feel like fighting

(37:36):
on it, like you know, per se,like I also think that there is
the tension of, well, you alsorespect your grandparents wishes
, but if we're being honest, Ispeak to grandma and grandpa
with like, not that much respectin like my tone.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
I feel like sometimes and you mean, just because you
don't have the languagecapabilities, it's English like
you're not speaking grandpa inEnglish.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's not like I'm necessarily like the most
respectful tone per se like he.
You know him, and I have hadpun English.
It's not like I'm necessarilylike the most respectful tone
per se Like he.
You know him and I have had.
Yes, but Dicks and whatever.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
So, like I think that there is that too, but because
of the way I was raised as aKorean American, like you said,
like you and I argue a lotdifferently than like you and
like grandma argued per se, likegrandma argued per se, and so I
think that I've gotten beaten alot, yeah, and so I think I'm
okay, necessarily, I think I'mokay with like breaking the

(38:24):
tradition because, like, thetype of culture that frames that
book and why it's passed downthrough men is not necessarily
something that has fullypermeated my life and the way
that it fully permeated, likegrandpa's life I don't want to
call it breaking.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
It's a modifying, because it's not like you're
burning the book Exactly, you'remaintaining it.
Maybe it's in English, so again, modifying the tradition, it's
not going to be in the oldChinese characters that I think
traditionally are used in there.
So but the issue is, as yousaid, would my parents even give

(39:01):
me the book if they knew that Iwas not going to give it to
Nick?
They might be like we're Idon't know out there.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
It's supposedly in the house.
We don't actually know where itis.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
It is Well.
I mean, they're older so theycan't keep track of all that
stuff, but I'm pretty sure Iknow where in the basement it's
being hidden.
But anyway, you know, we coulddo one of those national
treasure type scavenger hunts.
But I'm just saying there isprecedent that they could cut
meat out and then give it torich.
Who's the next son in line, whoof course has only sons, so he

(39:41):
couldn't none of them speakkorean, by the way?
so none, so they.
So I think the funny thing isis that you are the most korean
like um forward person in yourgeneration, of the kids who are
grown up, and yet you're the onewho and this is why I'm talking
about it benefits the least onmany levels from being the most

(40:04):
Korean.
If you were the oldest son andyou you know of the oldest son,
there'd be so many advantagesthat you would have Like,
literally everyone would have tobe like bowing to you, using
the honorifics all the time andall that.
But since you're the oldestquote, daughter like the Korean
tradition, like.

(40:24):
That's why I ask because itbenefits you the least.
And yet you are the mostknowledgeable about the Korean
culture, the Korean language youknow and you lean into it more
than anyone else does.
And yet, so that tension, as yousaid, is what amazes me
sometimes.
That, listen, I love the factthat you are proud for being

(40:48):
Korean.
I am very proud of the factthat you know as much Korean as
you do.
I'm very proud of the fact thatyou are really good about the
Korean culture, better thananyone else that I know in my
close circle, and yet there'stension for me because I
personally rejected it becausethere was so much of it that

(41:12):
when I was growing up I didn'tfind helpful for me.
If anything, it was more of ahindrance, because then I would
have to listen to my parentsmore, I'd have to follow what
they wanted, I would have to dowhat they wanted to do, and most
of a lot of what my life waswas about pushing all of that
away.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
I mean it's about context.
You can even look at liketransnational and transracial
adoptees.
South Korea I just read anarticle in the New York Times
had like the most like and italso was like a totally messed
up system of like adoption, youknow, and like sending oh.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Korean yeah, yeah, well, they got rid of all their
baby, their girl babies.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
There's also a history of female infanticide in
like China, for instance.
Like, obviously, like.
There is also that nuance andlike it's.
I feel like it's even morecomplicated for people you know
Korean adoptees and whitefamilies of like who are you
Korean and whatever.
Yes, very, very complicated it'sall about the context of which
you live in and which you wereborn in, and, like, partially,
that's why, like I at this pointdo not really care about if
they give me the book or not,because I know that they know
that if they give the book tolike my cousins or Nick, there's

(42:12):
a much higher chance that, like, the appreciation and the
cultural awareness of the book'sroots is going to be a lot less
.
And I know that they know thatand I don't really.
That's why, like, I'm likewhatever, because, at the end of
the day, like I'm not gonnalike force them to give me a
book.
That's like not like a fightthat I really care about or want
to have.
And I think that for me, beingthe only girl born on like your

(42:36):
very male dominated side of thefamily, I'm I've done everything
that I want to do and I've know, for instance, that, like I go
to a great university and that Iam, like you know, on the
higher side of like smartness,on that, like whatever and
things like that, like I thinkthat me knowing that and being

(42:57):
secure in that, I know that theyknow and I know that they've
watched me grow up, I know thatthey've seen everything that
I've done and so for me it'slike a if you want to give it to
them, like that's fine, likethat's something that you would
have, like that you can do andyou can live, and you know, with
that conscious decision andthat's fine.
Like I know that they know allthis.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
I will this.
I've never lived my life inaccordance to what my parents
wanted, because if they did, ifI did, if that meant anything to
me, the disappointment I knowthey felt that I went to Duke
and I didn't go to Harvard orPrinceton or Yale or one of the
Ivies I could tell, because theminute I got into Columbia Med
School that's all my father wasspeaking about was like that was

(43:36):
redemptive, like OK, he went toDuke but he went to Columbia
Med School.
So I know how they feel.
I will tell you this.
I don't care what they thinkabout the book, so I'll.
I'm getting the book and I'mgiving it to you, like there's
no reason for me not to, because, but with the caveat that you
have to maintain the traditionas modified.

(43:58):
You have to continue thegenealogy, you have to write it
in English, you have to keeptrack of everybody's births,
their names, their documents.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Obviously we joke that I'm the one who's going to
host all the cousin reunions.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
No, I understand that , obviously we joke that I'm the
one who's going to host all thecousin reunions.
No, I understand that, but butthat would be my mandate to you.
Is that that, like thattradition would have to be
continued?

Speaker 2 (44:29):
The only difference is is that it doesn't and it
shouldn't matter which gender itis who gets it, and and
maintain that.
I mean times change, you know.
I mean like this is also awhole thing of time.
As time passes, people change,like Duke itself has also
changed as a school, you know,and it's prestige and it's now
better than half the Iviesaccording, you know, according
to a lot of rankings.
And then you have, like Nick,who just got in and grandpa
calls all really excited, reallyhappy, really proud.

(44:50):
He calls me every time.
You, you know, Duke is playingin a basketball game and did you
see the game?
And oh my god, they're so goodand I'm so proud that, like, two
of my grandkids go to Duke.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
I mean, you know, I mean like at times, where did he
tell you to uh to apply at?

Speaker 2 (45:02):
times he like told me to re to Harvard.
But I don't necessarily thinkthat that means like the
disappointment he felt when youwent is he doesn't feel.
I don't think he feels anydisappointment that necessarily
that we didn't go no, absolutelynot.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
No, I'm just talking about me.
Yeah, I know the disappointmentwith me, but that's why times
change.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Like there was disappointment when you went to
duke, but then, when nick and Iboth got into duke, it was like
oh my god yes and so I think,like times changing, people
change and that's why, like Idon't really care what they
think per se, because I've, likethey have to live with the
facts, like they had grandpa hadto live with the fact that Duke
became a really awesome youknow great school and he learned

(45:40):
and whatever, and like that'sjust something that like I'm not
gonna like necessarily fightagainst or wait for, because I
just don't care enough so in thefuture, what is it?

Speaker 1 (45:50):
how do you find that balance as your fourth
generation kids go forth?
Is there anything that you'regoing to be telling them about
how you grew up in terms of,like, what to do, what not to do
?

Speaker 2 (46:05):
well, yeah, I think it's very important one to like
have a close and liketransparent relationship with
your kids.
Like I plan on being on astransparent with them as
possible about like what myrelationship with their
grandparents.
Like I plan on being on astransparent with them as
possible about like what myrelationship with their
grandparents aka you guys arelike like why some things annoy
me, why some things don't.
Like what heavy burdens or youknow do I carry from my past and

(46:26):
why is it like whatever?
Like I plan on being verytransparent about my kids
because I think, being a kid,you understand like how
irritating it can be sometimesto not know things or not hear
that, and so that's obviouslyimportant to me, I mean have I
not been transparent?
no, I think you have and I thinkthat's like why, like, I want
to follow that in the sense,whereas when I see like you with
, like your parents, likeobviously, like it's very
obvious that there was not asmuch conversation or

(46:49):
transparency between you guys,yeah, and so what would you do
different?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
like what would you tell them this is what my
parents did for me that I'm notgoing to do for you?
Like I want this to bedifferent between us.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
I mean, I think that's a lot of more like that's
not really cultural.
I think that's more likepersonal oh okay, yeah like I
mean, like I think, in terms oflike the culture, I wouldn't
necessarily do anythingdifferent, but it also again
depends on who I marry.
Like I feel like if you didn'tmarry mom, I don't really know,
like you know, hypothetically Iwouldn't be me anymore, but I
don't really know, like if youwould have sent your kids to
korean school, because that wassomething that, like mom's mom,

(47:22):
for you know, was a really bigperpetuator of, like she was the
one that enrolled me in koreanschool I would have wanted you
to go to Korean schoolregardless, but most of the
cultural tradition.
That surprises me actually.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Really why.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
I feel like you would not want to.
I feel like you don't reallycare if we went to Korean school
or not.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Oh, no, I got benefit out of going to Korean Listen.
Language acquisition of anyform.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yeah, it helps develop a child.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Right, and it's the same with music lessons, I think
sports which we did all ofthose, yeah, so I would have
leaned into all of that.
um, I was totally okay with youguys dropping it, because you
had to pick and choose yourbattles, and the battle to get
you guys to go weekly to koreanschool on fridays or whenever it
was friday nights was just likeit was brutal and, like you

(48:11):
said, the skill acquisition wasnot good, not because you guys
weren't smart, but because theway they were teaching at these
schools was not appropriate foryou guys.
They assumed that there was acertain level of Korean fluency
in the household, which thereusually was, because these were
all, like you said, secondgeneration kids whose parents
had just come from Korea, sothey were surrounded by Korean.

(48:33):
But for you and Nick to comehome and for us not to be
speaking Korean around you guyslike this, development of your
language skills, like an hour aday a week at, or two hours a
week at, language school, isjust not going to be enough.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, well, that's why, like, for me, like Korean
schools aren't off the table.
I would very much.
But I would also want to takefrom my experience and make it
like a little bit more likeefficient, if I'm being honest.
Like, whether it's like insteadgetting like a tutor who like,
understands like my kids' level,or that they're starting with

(49:15):
of chinese immigrants they're athird generation chinese like
just because if I don't marry akorean, they are not just korean
and I think that is somethingelse.
Like if I married like someonefrom spain, they'd be a first
you know, I mean like a firstgeneration hispanic or whatever
in america, like, and so I thinkI don't know what the right
term is yeah, but like I thinkthat's like a very different,

(49:38):
and so it's like hard for me tosay, because obviously, like,
some things are not, arenon-negotiable for me in the
sense like, well, we need to,like it's not like we're never
gonna eat Korean food, you know.
Or like I would like them tohave like a first birthday, like
a tour, for instance, andwhatever, but it's not
necessarily like, oh, they'redefinitely going to be fluent in
korean or they're definitelygoing to learn the language, or
that's just something that Ifeel like is harder to plan, so

(50:00):
it's just not as much of apriority for me I think for me,
for you guys growing up, thetouch, the cultural touch points
, like first birthday, the wasit?
what is it Years?

Speaker 1 (50:12):
The 90-day one, where 100-day the 100-day one.
Sorry, 100-day.
So the 100-day one is where youthrow the different things out
onto the mat.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
No, that's the first birthday.
Oh, is that the first birthday?
100-day birthday is just like,wow, like, because children used
to die back then in Korea.
Oh my God, it lived 100 days.
Yeah, infant mortality wasincredibly high for everyone
back then in the day.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
So, at the year, throwing the different things
out like the noodles and themoney and the pencil, and having
the baby reach for it to sortof tell you what their future
fortune is going to be, I'm intoall that.
I'm into the New Year's Day knowday celebration and we love
Korean food yeah, I mean I thinkKorean, like yeah, that that

(51:01):
should be another discussion atsome point.
Like culture, korean food I am,I love Korean food.
I am not someone who has to eatKorean food every day, I think
mom and I are yeah, who has toeat Korean food every day?
I think mom and I are, yeah,korean stuff more than inside
Korean stuff.
But I can.

(51:37):
I can navigate well enough, butI am the super whitey person
and for all of my peers prettymuch that's just the way it is.
I mean me too.
I feel like you navigate bothworlds pretty well, things
considered, um, I think you haveto prove yourself.
Like a lot of my duke friends,their first impression for me is

(51:57):
very different than how we arenow because once they get to
know how much you actually know,then they're sort of like that
adds another aspect of theirknowledge yeah, my like one of
my friends always is like Icannot believe you know that
word she's like how do you knowthat word she's like how do you
know that word Like, like thingslike that.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
And for me it's just words that they were never
advanced words.
It's just words that I know.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, the first time he told me about seomeok I was
like, oh yeah, that's not a wordthat I knew.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Yeah, seomeok, there's like.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
What's seomeok Seomeok in Korea?
I mean, there's also thingslike chimaek chicken and makju,
which is like a very popularcombination of chicken and beer
in Korea.
See, that's the thing I had had, chicken and beer, when I was
growing up in med school, likewe would go to.
Fort Lee, but we never called itchimaek, like you guys are the

(52:46):
ones who are making it cool withthe language.
Well, sash, I really appreciatethe time that you spent.
I think this is a veryinteresting topic, just because
there's no right answer for anyof it, and my perspective has
been so colored by the way, Igrew up probably in a bunch of
negative ways, which actuallyslants me sort of anti-Korean in

(53:09):
a lot of ways, but yourperspective has been very
positive and you've been able tosort of navigate itKorean in a
lot of ways, but yourperspective has been very, you
know, positive and you've beenable to sort of navigate it in a
better way.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Which is a testament, I think, to you and mom.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
I mean, I think mom is definitely way more Korean.
Mom has been, yeah, veryinfluential, I think, and I
think without her influence youwould never have gotten half
sort of the positive influenceabout Korean culture.
And it's her and her mom and herand her mother, uh, and.
But I've always been the onewho sort of and her too grounded

(53:40):
in like, listen, we'reAmericans, we live in America,
we live in America.
Success is built on being anAmerican, not like living in
some sort of like idealized,like bubble where you have to,
you know, and there's so manyimmigrant communities, just like
that, whether you go to Newark,you know, with the Portuguese
or Brazilian community, or inyou know a Polish community or

(54:04):
Korean or Chinese community,like there's way more that we
have to do in terms of beingsuccessful than just sort of
leaning into that.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
It's like code switching Like.
I know we're wrapping up withthis totally other topic, but
it's like code switching Likeyou know how.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
What's code switching ?

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Code switching is, like some people see it as a
negative concept.
A lot of immigrants and peopleof color see it as just like a
way it's supposed to be.
Like I'm kind of paraphrasing,but it basically is like when
you switch how you speak and whoyou're with and obviously like
I think that's why, for instance, like the Korea Finance Society
has been really helpful becauseobviously, like being in, like

(54:38):
you know the workplace, which ispredominantly like white, for
instance, whereas like beinglike with my Korean friends, you
know at Duke, like I'm speakingvery differently, like with the
words I'm throwing around Allright.

Speaker 1 (54:45):
Well, sure, yeah, and like that's kind of an example
of code switching, I thinkthat's also something that is
another part of this.
I think.
To me it's more about beingempathic.
So, yeah, when I'm with workingwith someone or I'm interacting
with someone, it really doesn'tmatter what, who I am or what

(55:08):
where I've come from.
I really want to feel orunderstand where that person's
coming from.
So someone looking at thatmight call it code switching, if
what I'm doing, but what I'mreally trying to do is just
develop a connection and a bondto that person.
And if that person happens tobe someone who is super Italian

(55:29):
or super Irish, like I knowenough about these cultures and
I try to learn enough that I cansort of connect on some level,
like um, so I know what theirbackground was like, how they
might have grown up, like whatmight have been important to
them, or their family growing up, yeah, and so I'm not like
trying to be them, but I'mtrying to connect with them

(55:49):
that's why people like me, forinstance, like immigrants,
people of color, don't see it asa bad thing.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
They see it as like wanting to under eating and like
building that connectionbecause, like I said, like I
have non, like I have non-koreanfriends, and like my
relationships with them are justas strong because we bond.
You know, we connected oversomething different whereas,
like some of my korean friends,just as strong of a relationship
too but that's probably, youknow, some of the basis is like
the cultural understanding andlike that's just like you said,
like being like valuing wherepeople are from and their

(56:16):
backgrounds.
And that's why people somepeople say that like
co-switching is not a bad thing.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
I mean it's funny because my best friends, if you
had to ask me, would be the guysthat I trained with in
residency.
One is Italian, italianAmerican, one's Indian and one's
Indian American, one's ChineseAmerican, and all of us have our
own cultural backgrounds.
All of us have explored our owncultural heritages, gone back,

(56:41):
visited our own differentcountries.
We all have our own depths.
All of them have a lot of depthto their character and their
nature.
I've seen them talk about post,discuss their ancestry and where
they're from, but when we gettogether, none of that is in
play.
It's what our sharedexperiences were, our trial by

(57:04):
fire, how we survived, whatshaped our outlook.
And so the depth that we havefor our cultural heritage does
inform us and make us moreresilient in a lot of ways.
But when we meet and connectwith others, that's not
necessarily something thatpeople have to bring to the
forefront, because that's notwhat's necessarily going to

(57:25):
connect you with somebody else.
And so I mean maybe I've donethat to an extreme, some might
say but on the other hand, Ihave felt like learning more
about others and not necessarilyputting my own self out in
front has helped me more thanhurt me, I guess.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
That's why I think everyone listening, whether
you're like a parent or a child,or like a potential future
parent, like I think it's veryimportant to be transparent and
let your kids know about, like,what has shaped you to be the
way you are today, whether it'scultural and or, like you know,
environmental, social, political, whatever, like I think that's

(58:05):
why I place value on, like the,the generation, like I don't
neglect, I'm like proud that I'mthird generation Korean
American and I think that'sbecause I have a lot of
appreciation and I'm verygrateful for what you and mom
both endured and alsoexperienced.
But I think if I didn't knowthat, like, my relationship with

(58:27):
being like Korean Americanwould be very, very different.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Agreed, sasha.
Thank you so much.
That was an awesomeconversation.
I appreciate it and good luckthis summer in Chicago.
Thank you, I'm going to try tovisit you as many times as I can
.
Yay, thank you.