S05E97 From 6 Gyms to 120: Growth and Entrepreneurship with Chris Hardenberg: Lessons from the COO of Station Athletics

With six current company gyms, how can Station Athletics @stationathletics reach their goal of 120 gyms in 10 years?

Chris Hardenberg @c_hard_fit, the Head of Operations for Station Athletics shares his journey from being a high school wrestling coach and teacher to becoming a central figure in one of the largest CrossFit gym chains in the country. 

We  delve into Station Athletics' unique expansion strategy, managing multiple gym locations, and the vital importance of quick lead response for member retention. Chris opens up about the trials and tribulations faced, including navigating debt and the impact of COVID-19, and how they emerged stronger. 

He also discusses the systematic approach to programming and the comprehensive support structure for coaches and members. With ambitious future goals, Chris outlines the growth mindset and strategies that could take Station Athletics to new heights. Whether you're a gym owner, manager, or fitness enthusiast, this episode provides valuable insights into running a successful fitness business.

• Chris discusses his introduction to CrossFit and the impact it had on his life 
• Insights into the unique model of Station Athletics and its community focus 
• The significance of responding quickly to leads for gym retention 
• Navigating early challenges in Chris's journey and how they shaped him 
• The method of programming used at Station Athletics aimed at inclusivity 
• The importance of fostering a gym culture built on support and accountability 
• Lessons learned from both successes and failures in business growth 
• Future goals for member growth and expansion in the fitness industry 

Join us for a riveting discussion on fitness, community building, and entrepreneurial spirit that inspires!

#BotoxAndBurpees @crossfittraining @crossfit @crossfitgames #crossfit #sports #exercise #health #movement #crossfitcoach #agoq #clean #fitness #ItAllStartsHere #CrossFitOpen #CrossFit #CrossFitCommunity @CrossFitAffiliates #supportyourlocalbox #crossfitaffiliate #personalizedfitness

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
All right, welcome to another episode of Botox and
Burpees.
I'm here with my very specialguest, chris Hardenberg.
He is the chief operatingofficer or head of operations at
Station Athletics.
His Instagram handle is Cunderscore hard, underscore fit.
He is also a remote coach atZorFitnesscom, which does remote
coaching and programming, andhe does the work for one of the.

(00:29):
He does all the heavy liftingfor probably one of the most
unique or biggest CrossFit gymcompanies in the world, or at
least in the country StationAthletics.
So welcome to the podcast.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
So the reason why you guys areso unique is that you have six
coming on, seven locations whichI'd never heard of for a

(00:51):
CrossFit gym company.
You have locations in Denville,ledgewood, roseland, which I
dropped in and I'll talk aboutSparta, summit, westfield,
rutherford, steam, which Iunderstand will no longer be
part of station soon, and thenyou even have station for her,
which is like specificprogramming for women as well,

(01:11):
yep um, your website isstationathleticscom.
Your instagram handle is stationathletics, as well as
individual ig handles for mostof your locations and you also
have in.
The reason why I got a hold ofyou guys or at least I I knew
about you guys is because ofyour locations and you also have
.
The reason why I got a hold ofyou guys or at least I knew
about you guys is because ofyour podcast, movement Mindset,
which has really detailed yourefforts in regards to building

(01:33):
station athletics and all thelessons you've learned along the
way and where you guys havebeen.
So thank you again for joiningme on the podcast and I'm sorry
that the founder, joe Pasolacqua, was not able to join us.
He had a last-minute thing.
But I want to hear a little bitabout Chris Hardenberg first.

(01:53):
So I kind of dug in a littlebit on you, and you are a New
Jersey product.
You grew up in Verona, right,yep, and you were a collegiate
wrestler, yep, and you were 157pounds.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Is that what you're right there?
Yeah, as a senior, yeah, 157.
I was pretty light.
How much do you weigh right now?
I'm about 170.
Now, okay, sam, I'm the type ofperson that new fitness people
hate.
I was fairly competitive inCrossFit for some time.
When I competed, I was closerto 180 pounds.
Fairly competitive in CrossFitfor some time.

(02:25):
When I competed, I was closerto 180 pounds.
And so now as we've grown, I'vekind of like all right, I take
our class four or five times aweek, so I'm working out less
and have lost weight since doingthat.
So, yeah, so I'm about 170.
You're right, you're the personpeople love to hate.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yes, so you were at Messiah University in
Pennsylvania.
You were team captain, you had61 wins, yep.
And then you were coachingwrestling back in Verona, your
hometown, and I rememberwatching you talk about the
first time you did CrossFit.
I always love people's firsttime start stories and it's so

(03:00):
classic.
It was Fran, that was yourfirst one, yep.
That's so ironic, yeah.
So how did that happen?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
So it's yeah.
So how did that happen?
So it's funny.
So, like you said, first of allyou did your research, You're
good man.
So I was coaching wrestling atmy where I graduated high school
in Verona, and it was the offseason and I knew the guy who
ran the weight room.
He was kind of like the weightroom guy football coach when I
went to the school and we had areally good relationship when I
was in high school and so I wasjust there working out because I

(03:26):
was a teacher as well and,frankly, I was a broke teacher.
So it's like, all right, well,I'm not going to pay for a gym,
I have access to a weight room,I'm just going to go to the
school and work out.
And so he kind of pulled measide and was like hey, have you
heard of CrossFit?
And I was like no, I have noidea what you're talking about
this was 2012.
Yeah, I want to say, well, Igraduated 2012.

(03:47):
This is probably around there,maybe 2013, 2014 got it.
So it's like this was just when, like rich froning and
crossfit's, like media team,started to take off so like I
don't know how long you, howlong have you been doing
crossfit?
yeah, since about 2014 okay, soaround the same time as me.
So I don't know if you rememberlike old school videos of rich
froning, yes, working out atlike tennessee tech and like

(04:09):
spooning peanut butter and andjelly into his mouth, like that
was when he kind of like saidsomething to me, yeah, and so I
was like no, I never heard of it.
He and he's like you know, youshould try it, I feel like you'd
be pretty good at it, and heknew me again from high school,
coming from a wrestlingbackground.
That attitude of like inducedsuffering is like very much

(04:30):
embedded into the sport, so Iwas like all right.
So I looked it up and I justwent, got in.
My search took me tocrosswordcom and the main site
workout for that the next daywas fran.
That's crazy, yeah.
And so, naturally, right, Ilooked at it 21, 59 thrusters at
95 pounds and pull-ups and Iwas like, oh, like this does not
look hard, right.

(04:50):
And so I was like I'll do thistomorrow.
And I did it.
And I remember being so sickthat I like threw up the peanut
butter and jelly sandwich I atebefore working out.
And I was like, just like a lotof people, it's like what, wait

(05:10):
a before working out?
And I was like, just like a lotof people, it's like what, wait
a minute?
What happened here?
Like I was, I wasn't competingbut I was still in good shape,
right.
Like I just came out maybe ayear or so removed from being a
collegiate wrestler.
I was still in shape because Iwas coaching football and
coaching wrestling at the time Iwas young, you know, I was
probably 23 years old and I'mlike, how did this kick my butt
so badly?
And I was like I got to lookinto this more.
And then what really hooked mewas, after doing that, realizing

(05:34):
that you keep score in theworkouts because, being
competitive, I was like so wait,I can work out, which I already
love to do, feel strong, butthen compare scores and try to
beat you like I'm in, likethat's kind of what got me there
.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Right, that's like such a former athlete kind of a
hook is that you can stillcompete at a high level and you
did for a while.
It sounds like.
And what I like the most aboutyour story I guess like a lot of
people's stories, is that thereare a lot of trials and
tribulations in it.
I recently talked to Aaron Hindand he was the CEO of FitAid
and he literally, like when hetransitioned from being a

(06:12):
chiropractor into his beveragecompany, he literally was like
eating macaroni and cheese.
He had like no money, he wasbroke.
And it sounds good inretrospect but at the time when
you don't know what's going onin your life, like it's scary
when you're a young adult andyou're like, oh my God, I could
literally fail and becomehomeless you went from being a

(06:35):
teacher coach getting into theCrossFit space, yeah, and.
But then there were a lot ofproblems, that kind of happened
in terms of trials andtribulations.
So what, what, what was that?

Speaker 2 (06:52):
yeah, that was, uh, it was scary.
So, to paint the picture, likeyou said, I was a teacher.
I was a phys ed teacher, um,and it was fine, right, like I
got a degree in health andphysical education because I
knew I was an active guy, I knewI wanted to do something with
like fitness or whatever at thetime.
But coming out of high school,the only thing I knew of at the

(07:14):
time was like, oh well, if youwant to do that, you go teach
gym, right?
So that's what I did.
And, long story short was, atthe school I was at, I had
applied for a paid footballposition.
I didn't get hired and so I waslike, all right, I want to stay
connected with the kids.
They didn't have a paidwrestling position, so I was
like I'll volunteer with thefootball team Because I was

(07:37):
wrestling at Verona High Schooland I was teaching phys ed at
Roselle Park High School, and soI was paid as a wrestling coach
at Verona.
So I volunteered with thefootball team for two years and
then my son was born, my firstchild, and I was like, okay, you
know, I frankly was like I'mnot going to.
If I'm going to donate my time,it's not going to be to high

(07:58):
school kids, it's going to be tomy family.
So that's what I did.
And so I was like okay, but Ihave to make money somehow.
A teacher salary doesn't payall the bills.
And so I started part-timecoaching at a CrossFit gym,
which is an interesting story,and if I could, if we have time,
I could go that route too.
Let's go down there.
So I had done the open in 2014at a local affiliate, because I

(08:22):
saw a guy I used to go to highschool with was there, and the
owner at the time, after I didthe open workouts, was like well
, what are you going to do now?
And I was like well, I'llprobably just go back to working
out at the high school.
And she goes.
Well, what if you work out here?
And again you mentioned it likebroke teacher fresh out of
college?
I was like I can't afford aCrossFit membership.
So she goes well, what if Ijust let you work out here for

(08:52):
free for a little while?
And I was like well, I canafford free.
So I did that, loved it.
And then she was like have youever thought about coaching?
And I was like yeah, I wouldlove that.
But for people who don't knowthe level one is a thousand
dollars.
It's very expensive.
And so I was like well, i'thave $1,000.
And she goes well, what if Ipaid for the fee and you paid me
back in installments?
I was like I could do that.
So that's what happened.
That's how I got into coachingCrossFit.
Was that Parsippany?

(09:12):
No, so that was beforeParsippany, so it was an old gym
.
It's not around anymore.
No-transcript.

(09:46):
I said but I'm not gonna moveto a volunteer position, give up
the extra income I'm making,like I have to support my family
.
And I said to her and I'llnever forget, cause?
My wife was a teacher as well,but she was on maternity leave.
I was like listen, my wife canstill go back to her teaching
job.
I said I understand theposition you're in and if that,

(10:06):
if this is going to prevent youfrom giving me tenure because I
was about to get tenure I waslike all I ask is you, let me
know now, so my wife can go backto her teaching job while I
look for something new.
And she goes no, you should begood, you should be good, okay.
So my wife tells her job, she'snot going back.
So now she no longer has aposition at the school district.

(10:28):
I get a contract.
I signed the contract.
That's June.
About a month later a freshmanfootball job comes open.
I decline it.
I don't want the freshman, thatparticular position.
About a week later my principalcalls me and says we're letting
you go.
Wait, can they do that andbreak the contract?
So I guess I learned after thefact that I probably should have

(10:48):
gotten the union involved.
But my limited knowledge being anon-tenure teacher, the way
teaching work is when you'renon-tenure they can let you go
at any point in time forwhatever reason.
Once you receive tenure, it'slike very hard to get you fired,
and so what happens in mostschool districts is they
leverage that to the hilt.
They'll get you to do whateverthey want you to do Beforehand,

(11:09):
exactly because they know theycan, and then after tenure, then
there's a little more Nuitation, exactly so.
I was just like I'll neverforget it, sitting in my room,
like I have a one-year-old, amortgage, my wife has no job.
Right, I have no job.
I'm like what in the world am Igonna do?

(11:30):
So I I remember sitting with mywife and I was like I gotta
start applying for teaching jobsand I go into the gym I'm
coaching.
At the time, which was inParsippany, I said, listen, guys
, like I can't coach class hereanymore because I have to put
all my time and effort intofinding a job.
Yeah, and they're like, well,we can't lose you.
So what if we put a proposaltogether for you to come on full

(11:50):
time?
And I was like, well, putsomething together and then
we'll talk.
So they did, and I went to mywife and was like, what do we do
?
And she's extremely supportive.
And she knew because I told herwhen I was at the gym in
Fairfield babe, if I could dothis full time and make a living

(12:10):
, like I would jump in aheartbeat Like this is what I
want to do.
But at the time I was like butyou can't make a living doing
this unless you're going to ownthe gym, of course.
And I and I was like I'm notwilling to take that risk.
So she goes listen, you've beenwanting to do this, let's just
take a chance.
And so I was like that was allI needed, like I needed her.
Giving me that stamp ofapproval Like I got your back

(12:32):
was like all the fuel I needed.
I was like all right, let'sfrigging do this.
That's amazing, and so that'swhat kind of got me into the
space, and then that's its ownlong story, but again, but just
to shorten it.
There, that's its own longstory, but again, but just to
shorten it.
There was a lot of promisesthat were made to me in the
proposal that were not kept.
Right.
Things went totally haywire,which is unfortunately not
uncommon in the CrossFit space,where you have, you know,

(12:56):
fitness people that don't knowbusiness, right, and so I ended
up being like I got to get outof here, and at the time, I was
working out about once a week atRoseland because I connected
with Marquand um and I hadreached out to Joe.
I was like, listen, do you needa coach?
And he's like no, but I needsomeone to run my gym in
Roseland.
I was like, well, I'm your guy,and so that was in 2017, and

(13:18):
that's when I came over toStation Athletics okay, so Joe
Pasolacqua had owned, uh,roseland at that time yeah, so
he owned two locations at thetime.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Which two that one.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Roseland and the CrossFit Sparta location Okay.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
So at that point he wanted to expand and grow
Station Athletics.
And so when he started talkingto you about let's get more and
more locations, what did youthink of that and what made you
buy in and say, yes, we can dothis.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
So I was all in.
So, to start, when I came over,I didn't have any options.
I was like I'll never forget.
He told me he was nervous tohire me because he had never
hired a salesperson before,because that's his strength is
sales.
And so he had done all thesales at the two locations.
But he's like we have so manypeople coming in, we're growing

(14:14):
so fast, I need someone to dothis, but I don't know how I'm
going to pay you.
So you're commission only.
Whoa.
So I had no base salary.
I only made money if I soldsomeone on a membership.
Wow.
And I was like, all right, well, this is all, this is what I
got.
And at the time I was also.
We had to.
Things got so bad.

(14:38):
We had to sell our townhouseand I had to move in with my
pregnant wife and myone-year-old, with my parents.
Oh my God.
So talk about like as a, as ahusband, a father and a man like
I have totally let my familydown, like that's.
I felt like a complete failure,and so it was like very much
back up against the wall, like Ihave no choice but to figure
this out.
And so that's what happened.
I sold like a madman, I tried tofulfill to the greatest of my

(15:06):
ability to get these peopleresults, because I'm like, if I
can help these people and theycan get results and they can see
what we have going on here,they're going to stay, they're
going to refer their friends andwe could keep this thing going.
Um, and so at the time we wereworking with a company called
gym launch I don't know ifyou're familiar with them um,
and so we were growing prettyrapidly, and then that's when
he's like hey, I think I want toopen another one.
We were growing pretty rapidlyand then that's when he's like,

(15:27):
hey, I think I want to openanother one.
And so I was like, all right,let's do this.
And I fell in love with theidea of like.
The way I look at it is, if weexpand our reach, that's more
people we can help.
And so if we had I'm making upa number, but let's say we had
250, 300 members between the twolocations, it's like, all right
, well, if we had another one,that's another 100, 150 people

(15:47):
we can help.
If we had another one, that'sanother 100 to 150 people we can
help.
And I was a big believer, andstill am that.
If I feel that our program isthe best out there, then it's
almost like we have anobligation to expand.
So when he kind of outlined andit was very like it was not

(16:09):
business plan 101.
Like this is how we're going todo it, it was very much like
idea, like this is how we'regoing to grow, I was like, all
right, let's make this happen.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
So big pictures, but the details were not like quite
all filled in.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
No, he's very much a jump into the deep end and hope
that he can swim type of guy.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Was it like so the first thing I would.
I saw your website and I sawall the locations Like so how do
you like?
I know just from my home gym,crossfit Bison, like how the
money runs and I'm like, wheredid they get the money to keep
expanding from location tolocation?
You either have to be rich andhave existing money or you have

(16:47):
to borrow it.
Sure, so which way did you guysdo it to make this happen?

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, I'd say a little bit of both, okay.
So we hit a lot of snags around2019.
So in 2018, we were growinglike crazy.
Cashflow was not an issuewhatsoever yeah, that was
probably like peak Cross.
Cashflow was not an issuewhatsoever yeah, that was
probably like peak CrossFit ohmy gosh.
Yeah.
And then it was also we wereearly adopters to online
marketing and so for people outthere who understand online

(17:15):
marketing numbers, like we weregetting like three to $5
Facebook leads, whereas now,like a Facebook lead is like
like if it's 30 to $40, you'relike, ooh, that's really good
spend.
So it was like to get $3, $2Facebook leads.
It was like I tell people it'slike drinking water through a
fire hose.
Like I was seeing people every20 minutes for four hours.

(17:35):
Wow, yeah, on repeat.
And so 2018 was like Holy smokes, like we got something good
going on, so we expanded andexpanded and expanded, but again
, like I mentioned, like not gotsomething good going on.
So we expanded and expanded andexpanded, but again, like I
mentioned, like not having astructured plan, we outpaced our
capacity and then hit a coupleof bad decisions, like all in

(17:56):
conjunction.
In 2019, we had twoback-to-back bad sales hires
that sold like gangbusters outof the shoot.
But then it's like in thoseconsultations they're making
promises or not really knowingthe program, and so it was like
people were just going out theback door.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
I see, so retention was not really poor.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
It was the worst that had ever been for our gyms.
Then, on top of it, there was amember at our Roseland location
who worked for a supplementcompany and we were thinking
about white labeling protein ina couple of different
supplements.
So she approached Joe, outlinedthe whole program and he was
like listen, what is the minimumpurchase order?
Because he's like I can onlyfill so much at a time.

(18:37):
She's like oh well, you canfill 500 bags at a time, you
don't have to fill the wholething at once.
So he's like great, let's do it.
And then we get a $90,000supplement oh my God.
And he's like what is this?
And he's like, oh.
And then the owner was like well, that's the minimum purchase
order 5,000 bags.
And he was like I was told Icould fill 500 at a time.

(18:58):
He goes yeah, you can fill 500at a time, but you have to pay
for it all up front.
And so he's like what?
Wow?
And then, in conjunction withthat, we were also opening a gym
in Madison which was going tobe our seventh location, and
construction got delayed andbecame more expensive with that,
I see.
So all of that hit at once.
So he borrowed a lot of money,a lot Like he told us at one

(19:23):
point, the gym was a third of amillion dollars in debt.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Oh, my God yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
That's a lot of leverage.
Yes, so we were.
People were taking pay cuts.
We were doing all we could tohelp the business survive.
Right, and I'll never forget me, him, our head of marketing,
john, and the one girl, rachel,who helped kind of build out a
lot of our back-end systems.
That was like kind of like thethe center team, right, we had a

(19:49):
meeting and then and he goes,guys, I'm making my, our last
payment today.
We're officially out of debt.
Wow, we're taking off from here.
We're like all right, let's dothis and then cover it and good
break march 2020 yep, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
And then COVID, march of 2020.
Yep, oh my God.
And then everyone went down tothe crapper at that point.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
So then, we had to get shut down.
Fortunately we had.
It sounds very similar to Bison.
We had members who were supercommitted to us, kept us open,
and so then after that, weshrunk down to four locations.
Okay, so we went from sevendown to four and that allowed us
to build momentum and build upsome steam in what we were doing

(20:31):
, allowed our cash reserves togrow and Joe, basically within
the state of the business he wasthen started a couple other
businesses and said, hey, I needto put my focus in these other
businesses.
Here's the keys to the car,don't keep this thing running.
So I was like, all right, I gotto grow these things.
So I helped grow the gyms whilehe worked in the other

(20:52):
businesses and then throughthose two avenues, we were able
to build up enough cash tocontinue to build going forward.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
So, listening to this , there are a couple things.
The first is you guys have moreexperience in terms of lead
generation and growing a gymthan any other gym I've ever
heard of.
Like marketing and leadgeneration for most gyms is very
disorganized, like they don'thave a very good marketing
system, they don't have a goodthroughput, they don't know how

(21:19):
to approach people and convertthem into members.
It's just like, hey, come onover and like try out our gym
and let's see what happens, andlike it's really, really loose.
But you guys seem like trial byfire.
You guys are you particularlyhave probably perfected exactly
what it is that needs to be doneto convert a potential into

(21:41):
someone who's actually not justgoing to come to the gym and run
away after a month, but likeyou know that they're going to
stay.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
And what out of that experience, what is the single
most important thing you wouldsay or think about when you got
that potential lead for you?

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, so I would say so if you were to ask me single
most important thing when thelead comes in.
Yeah, so that would be, um, Iwould say speed, speed.
Yeah, most people don't realizehow quickly you need to respond
to someone.
Um, there's a lot and and, tobe frank, we've battled this
with people who've worked for usas well, but there's a lot
within the CrossFit space,because the people who run these

(22:20):
gyms are gym people.
Yeah, like, getting into thegym is not hard for them, right,
so there's a lot of an attitudeof like, if this person wants
to be here, they're going towalk through the door, right,
and it's like that's not how 90%of the population works and we
have to this person.
Does people have to realize whorun gyms?
The gym is actually a grudgepurchase, like, most of the

(22:42):
population actually does notwant to go to the gym, right,
like, I hate to break it topeople.
They don't want to be there,right, they're only going there
for a couple reasons.
One they don't like the waythey look in the mirror, right,
they don't like the way theyfeel, right, going through the
day day to day, right.
Or their doctor says you needto exercise, right.
And so, recognizing that, thatfact that it's like, okay, I

(23:02):
know, as the owner of the gymperson, that I got something
good, but you're not going toknow it, and you're probably not
going to know it until two,three months of being with us
that you're like, oh, this iswhat it's like to feel good.
This is what it's like to eat,right, this is what it's like to
get enough sleep.
This is what it's like I don'tknow to have friends that
actually take this seriously,take this seriously, so being

(23:27):
able to realize I have torespond to this person quickly
and effectively to get them inthe door, because not only do
they generally not want to comein, but, for those of you that
live in the tri-state area, youthrow a stone and there's a gym
available, right, yeah.
And so it's like there's somany different gyms and
businesses vying for theirattention that if you're slow in
that time, someone else isquicker and they're going to

(23:48):
that gym.
You know what's so funny.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
So I told you I was going to drop in at Roseland.
Yeah, so I go to your websiteand there's the first thing
always is that big drop yes Formwhere you fill it out.
There's really no other way ofcontact.
You have to do that.
So I filled out the form.
This was 730 in the morning andliterally not eight minutes
after that I got a text fromMarquand saying, hey, I got your

(24:12):
message that you're thinkingabout dropping in at our gym.
Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
I was like I've never had thathappen for any gym in my entire
life.
And so I go back and forth andI'm like, hey, and I was honest.
I was like listen, I'm, I'mhere to interview you.
I'm, I'm, and he's like noproblem.
And he took me through.
He told me the work, like thiswas like just a random day, and

(24:34):
I have to say I was.
That blew me away and that isvery consistent with why you
guys are so successful, thatthat, to me, that makes total
sense.
Um, the other thing that stoodout for me listening to you is
that you are not afraid ofcontracting and expanding, like
that's happened to you guys.
Like you guys have gone down,you guys have gone up, like if

(24:56):
it doesn't work for you, thenyou're not throwing good money,
or after bad, if a locationdoesn't seem to really like fly
and that's happened so, like,for example, with Rutherford
Steam, like that was part of thestation it's not going to be
going forward, like what makesyou decide like this isn't going
to work out.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, great question.
So before I get into the Steamtopic specifically, we had, like
I said, had, grown to sevenlocations.
Unfortunately, the Madisonlocation, which was sole owned,
opened.
It hit its year mark rightbefore COVID hit, and so one of
our sales reps right, that was abad hire for us ran the presale

(25:39):
.
It didn't run as well as wewanted it to, and then, after we
had gotten rid of him, westarted to build some momentum.
Covid hit, so it was a hugemoney suck on the business and
it was really hard for us to letit go.
But it eventually got to thepoint where we are in a meeting
and it's like we got to closethis location.
We can't keep funneling moneyfrom the other gyms to keep this

(26:01):
gym afloat when we don't evenknow if this is going to last.
So let's cut this and focus onwhat we can grow.
And then there were two.
There was one partnership andone attempt at franchising.
So again, right, like we had anidea that we wanted to grow and
what that was gonna look like,we weren't sure.
And so there was one gym inVerona who a guy was opening his

(26:25):
location.
He realized he's like I don'treally know what it's like to
run a gym reached out to Joe, topartner, he said okay, and then
there, so we did that.
But then it's like all right,maybe we should franchise, cause
we don't want to grow fast.
It's like we don't want to take20 years to get to 10 locations
.
So we tried franchising andthat was originally our Denville
location.
Now both of those partnershipsfell apart because two reasons

(26:48):
One, we weren't good at beinglike this is the way it has to
be Right and you have to run itthis way because we know it
works Right.
And then, when things weren'tfollowed, we weren't good at
being like, especially with thefranchises.
Like being like listen, youwon't follow our systems, we're
just going to take the franchiseaway.
Um, to be able to be successfulin a franchise model.

(27:10):
We talk about this on one ofthe episodes on our podcast.
I won't get it in too in depthyeah but you have to be have
ironclad contracts.
Yeah, you have to be a littleruthless, yeah, to be able to be
like listen, if you're notgoing to follow our systems and
we're going to take it back andlike like that's what McDonald's
does, yeah, right, cause theyown the land and so if you're
not doing their systems, theyjust evict you.
Right, um and and that.

(27:31):
And, frankly, in the beginning,a lot of in business is like
you're doing business withfriends and family.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
And that can get awkward Right.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
So, and these are more passion projects, because
it's CrossFit and they're gyms-Exactly so.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
So eventually we said you know what we got to cut
ties with these guys.
And it wasn't necessarily aboutmoney, like obviously they
weren't.
The gyms weren't verysuccessful, because if they were
successful then it's like allright, we'll figure out a way to
work this out, right.
But it wasn't about that.
It was the fact that, like Joekind of said, like you're giving
my brand a bad name, yes, andif we're going to grow, you

(28:06):
can't have negative connotationto the brand, right.
And so we cut ties with thatand shrunk all the way back down
to, like I said, four wasRoseland, steam and the two
Sparta gyms.
We reinvigorated Denville andthen we had opened Westfield and
then, with Steam in particular,it was one of those things
where the gym is that gym hasbeen around 12 years.
It was the only partnership wehad left in our network, oh um,

(28:30):
because we had acquired that gym.
So one of the partners from theprevious uh ownership stayed on
Um, and he's a great guy.
I think it was just one of thosethings where visions got to the
point where they didn't align,and so it.
It was very amicable to be likeall right, hey, you want the
gym to look like this, our brand, station Athletics, this is the
way we do things.

(28:51):
And so it's like, okay, cool.
And so the other owner was likeall right, well, let me buy you
out then.
And so that's what's going on.
And again, I don't know whenthis is going to air, but it'll
probably air after that deal isdone, and if not, then it'll be
on the near horizon, and sothat'll bring us to five, which
is again not what we want, butat the same time, kind of like
you said, it's like we've gottengood, and we've gotten good

(29:15):
because of mistakes and pain.
Right, we got good at beinglike this is our system, this is
why we know it works.
This is the numbers to back itup, and we need to be
unapologetic about what that isand that if you're able to
follow that, you're going to besuccessful, and if you aren't,
that's fine, but then there's noroom on this bus for you.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
So you have your flagship, which I would say
would be Roseland, and then youhave Denville, you have your
opening Ledgewood, you haveSparta, Summit, Westfield.
What made you choose thoselocations in particular?
Like you just opened Summit inWestfield recently, it's like
why did you say, okay, we needlike out of everywhere in New
Jersey?
Like why?
Why those locations?

Speaker 2 (29:56):
So the first location is actually in Sparta, okay, so
that was the first one.
And then Roseland opened andRoseland was pre-me, so I think
that was mostly because he waslooking to find a different demo
.
The Roseland location is veryclose to it's in a good spot.
It's near Livingston, not farfrom West Orange, he's Hanover,

(30:18):
so it's a good spot.
Then the women's gym was openin Sparta.
That was there because we foundwe were losing a subsect of the
population in that town,because the original location is
very much like old schoolCrossFit feel.
It's in.
It was in a warehouse setting.
You know, you walk in andthere's like people with shirts
off swinging from bars, and soyou had people be like, oh, this
isn't for me, and they left.

(30:38):
It's also a population that hasa lot of stay at home moms, so
babysitting was an issue, and sohe opened the women's gym as a
means to fill a need in thattown and so that became super
successful for those reasons.
And then from there we look at acouple of different things.
So we do a whole demo search.
We look at population.
We look at average income inthat population, household

(31:01):
income, facebook metrics to belike okay, how many people are
we going to reach with ouradvertising?
And then what is the distancebetween that town where we might
go and one of our existinglocations?
Because it's one of thosethings where we want to be far
enough away that our advertisingdoesn't cross, pollinate, that
you end up self-cannibalizingthe area.
And so we look at those metricsand then, based off of those

(31:23):
metrics, we say, okay, cool,here's some of the areas we're
looking to go into.
And so that's what's allowed usto kind of pick some of those
towns.
And then obviously it's based onthe space.
For example, ledgewood, by demonumbers, is maybe not the
strongest compared to like aWestfield right, but it has
really good bordering towns.

(31:43):
It's far enough away, it's onRoute 10.
And we walked into the spaceand it was a perfect square and
the rent numbers and utilitynumbers were right where it's
like oof, this is going to be aneasy project to build out.
It's a prime location, it hasgreat parking, it's next to a
little gym, it's next to aDunkin' Donuts, so you're going

(32:04):
to have traffic.
And then when we looked at thedemos and said, okay, hey,
here's Ledgewood demo.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
But the way.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Route 10 goes is it goes like real fast Randolph,
Ledgewood, Roxbury you get likethree or four towns in a really
tight avenue.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
So that's a lot of the stuff we look at, wow.
So there's a lot of analysisbefore you decide.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
this is where we need to be yeah, and we also look at
our competitors.
So for us, some of the maincompetitors, we look at our
Orange Theory, f45, and AlphaFit Club.
So those are franchise chains.
F45 is international, orangeTheory is national, but they're
big brands, right.

(32:46):
And I remember sitting ameeting and we were like, I
wonder we?
We were like let's pull up themap of where they're at.
And we just said, you know what, if we believe our program is
better than those guys which wedo to my core, I do it's like
well, they've probably alreadydone the market research on
where to go.
Let's just go where they're at,let's, I like let's, let's go

(33:08):
right across the street, right,and then you're, all you're
doing at that point is pairingmarketing with marketing and
program the program, which iswhy coffee shops open next to
coffee shops because, exactlyright, yep.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
So uh, how about other crossfit gyms?
Do you also look in to wheretheir location is and take that
into account when you're notreally?

Speaker 2 (33:25):
really no, because you kind of touched on it.
Most of those CrossFit gyms arelike it's like your mom and pop
shop, right?
One location, one to two owners.
You don't really have a bigstaff and a lot of them are not
professional spaces, right?
You're not used to that from Idon't know a lot about Bison,
but from outside looking in andtalking to you.
Right, you're not used to thatfrom I don't know a lot about

(33:47):
Bison, but from outside lookingin and talking to you.
You're not used to that,because it sounds like Bison has
.
They have full-time staff, theyhave part-time staff, they have
been around for a long time,but most gyms are not that.
Most gyms is.
I'm the owner, but I also haveanother job and I coach when I
can and I have my 60 members andit pays the bills and I'm okay
with that.
So we look at it in the senseof like.

(34:07):
Get an idea of like.
Okay, how do we adjust ourschedule?
Like, is it an area that has tobe in super early because you
know you get heavy commutinginto the city or something like
that?
So we'll look at that forresearch.
But as far as like where tolocate ourselves, that's not
something we necessarily look at.
You affiliate with crossfit, doyou?
guys hold crossfit affiliationswe do so, so roseland does okay,

(34:29):
our other gyms do not okay soand I'm interested, why is that?

Speaker 1 (34:37):
so?
I know even station athleticsroseland does not have crossfit
in their name, even though theyare across CrossFit affiliate.
So what was the decision to sayaffiliate, say Roseland, but
not not the others?

Speaker 2 (34:48):
So when Joe got started, he was a big CrossFit
guy, yeah, um, and so, as youwere too, yes, well, and I still
am Okay, um, but so we, we, soRoseland was affiliated, um, but
then, as we added differentlocations, especially post 2018.
Yeah, I remember being in salesconsultations and you got a lot
of well, I heard CrossFit getsyou hurt, I heard it's dangerous

(35:12):
, I heard this, I heard that,and it wasn't like in 2014, 2015
, where you could slap CrossFiton your building and people just
marched into the building andso it was almost like there was
a point in time where CrossFitwas actually.
It was almost a deterrent.
I think things have come backaround.
I don't think it's a deterrentanymore, but I think it's so

(35:32):
part of the vernacular that nowmore people recognize and this
is what I would say in salesconsultations it's like, because
it's not a chain, people wouldsee CrossFit and be like, oh,
you're all the same, right, andit's like that.
People would see CrossFit andbe like, oh, you're all the same
, right, and it's like that wasthe unfortunate thing we
recognized is like, okay, youknow, mom and pop shop down the
street might be doing a terriblejob of running a program.
Right, they have CrossFit ontheir building.

(35:53):
They see CrossFit on ours andthink it's the same I see, and
so it's like I've done nothingwrong to have a negative
connotation in this person.
Right, but negative connotationin this person.
But because they had a negativeexperience at a gym three miles
up the road, they're notwalking into our building.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
I think you're right and I think that there are two
issues here.
The one that you're listing isjust such the uneven nature of
the quality of the affiliatesout there, and we've all, I
think, have gone to affiliateswhere the experience is less
than great, and I think CrossFitHQ is having that's like one of
the biggest problems they'redealing with and they have been.
But I also think there is somenegative connotation, because it

(36:31):
you know, risk of injury.
You know, these guys are crazylike all that sort of stuff.
So you're right, I don't thinkthat a lot of people find
CrossFit, on the name, tonecessarily be helpful for their
gym, and I've heard a lot ofgyms do that, even though
they're maintaining a CrossFitaffili the name to necessarily
be helpful for their gym.
And I've heard a lot of gyms dothat, even though they're
maintaining a CrossFitaffiliation, they're not putting
it up there.
It makes sense that you want tobrand consistently as Station

(36:54):
Athletics and have people knowwhat that experience is like,
depending on which locationthey're at that they're still
going to be at a StationAthletics.
What kind of programming do youfollow?
Like who does it?
Like what is it?

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, so internally we have two different types of
programming that we do.
So we have our CrossFit styleprogramming.
So that's our one gym in Sparta, the Roseland location, and
then it was the steam location.
So they run, you know, triedand true CrossFit programming
snatches, burpees, muscle-ups.
Who does it for you?
So we rotate.

(37:33):
So we have about four peoplewho rotate.
We run six-week blocks, so oneperson will program six weeks
and then the next person willprogram six weeks, and so we
rotate six-week blocks and werotate three to four people to
program.
And our system around that isessentially we have one person
who writes the six week block ofprogramming.
They then send that six weekblock to me.
I look over every set, every rep, everything in the program.

(37:54):
You know I won't make wholesalechanges.
Like, if they have a certainprogression they want to follow,
great.
But I'm looking for more oflike.
Like we have a guideline where,in our opinion, the work done
in class should not exceed ahalf hour.
And so you know, if you have aback squat that takes about 15
minutes and a 12-minute workout,that's about 27 minutes worth
of work, you're good.

(38:14):
And so we want about, you know,I would say, 27 to 32 minutes
worth of work in the class.
I want to make sure we'rebalancing things like you know
two-leg squatting, single leg,knee flexion, upper body pulling
, like, making sure, like thoseare all puzzle pieces correctly,
and so I'll send feedback tothat person.
We then have a back and forth onwhat stays, what goes, what

(38:34):
changes.
Then that program gets sent outto the general managers of the
gyms that will be doing thatprogramming to look at and we
schedule a meeting.
In that meeting the programmergoes over the skeleton, what to
expect within those six weeks,and then, if there's any
workouts in the six week programthat could pose a logistical
problem like hey, I'm tryingsomething creative here, like

(38:56):
you're going to have to organizethe class in this way, do this,
this, this and this we go overthat in that meeting and then
from there we record thatmeeting.
I send it out to our entirepart-time staff so that they can
watch it and see what's goingon within the six weeks.
Oh, I see.
And then we also have our mediateam film a video with the
programmer to go over theskeleton and we blast that out
to the members so they know whatto expect within the six weeks

(39:18):
Wow, that's really systematic.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
And one super helpful for the coaches and super
helpful for the members actually, wow, one super helpful for the
coaches and super helpful forthe members.
Actually, wow, that's reallygreat.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
And then what's the other leg of the yeah, so the
other leg is what we're going tobe calling SA Fit.
So essentially, what SA Fit is?
It's like an amalgamation of alot of different things, but
think of it as a lot of CrossFit.
But we take out certainmovements like barbell, snatches
, muscle-ups, handstand, walking.
We basically take a lot ofthose movements out and so you
have, I would say, a CrossFitbase to the style of programming

(39:51):
.
But we'll incorporate somebodybuilding in there.
We'll incorporate some, youknow, maybe some aerobic style
stuff or HIIT style stuff, butall the vernacular is
CrossFit-esque.
And the reason why we do thatis because we found demos at
some of our gyms changedsignificantly.
The starting fitness level ofpeople coming into the gym

(40:14):
continues to go down.
You get people like all right,I'm 40 years old, I haven't
moved since I stopped playinghigh school sports at 18.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
It's like, ooh, so we're really starting at square
one, so we're not going to makeyou squat snatch Exactly, or do
handstand pushups Right and thenwe.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
We found a lot of people don't?
I hate to say it, but there's alot of people in the population
that really don't care whatthey snatch.
And so it's like, all right,you have this with the, with the
members.
Then, on top of it, it it'shard to find good instructors.
Yeah, like we have a bar at ourcompany of coach, like you got

(40:51):
to be this good and findingsomeone who's this good, who can
coach the snatch, the clean andjerk, is way harder.
Yeah, then, like we've had good, we have good coaches at some
of our gyms that have verylittle to no experience very
little experience, I should say,coaching the Olympic lifts and
they're amazing coaches.
They know they can coach a backsquat, they can coach a bench

(41:12):
press, they can coach toes bar,they can do all that.
They're just not super familiarwith snatching and clean and
jerking, and so it's like ifthat was a CrossFit gym, they
would never be working for us,because those are also the
movements that if someone wereto get hurt, it's going to be
most likely.
In those movements there's acomplicated complexity, yeah,
and so we were like, all right,you know what?
I think this is our modelbecause, in our opinion,

(41:34):
crossfit and the way it'sformatted is the best way to get
people results in a shortlength of time.
Uh, build muscle, but let,maybe let's cut out some of the
things that are the hardest tocoach and that people don't
really care about, and we labelthat SA Fit, got it.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
Now, obviously the product is what keeps people.
So you guys obviously have atremendous amount of experience
and expertise with advertising,marketing, lead generation,
bringing people in, butobviously people stay.
The retention rate is based onyour product and the product is
the coaching and the programmingand, like you said, crossfit or
CrossFit style programmingworks.

(42:14):
We all know that.
That's why we're all in thisspace.
How do you establish that Likeso?
How do you choose your coaches?
How do you choose the culture,or establish a culture, because
a lot of it's also aboutcommunity, and I saw that at
roseland when I was there.
Like you know, the people kneweach other and they, you know,
there was a lot of banter backand forth and they really had a,

(42:36):
you know, good uh rapport andthe coach shaka was great.
Like he was really uh, like hespent time making sure
everyone's fitness level wasappropriated.
Someone had a little bit of atweaked shoulder and he worked
with them during, before westarted the class WOD, like

(42:57):
after the warmup, to make surethat you know he was going to be
able to do the movements.
So how do you ensure that yourcoaches are actually coaching
right?
How do you pick them?
You know it's not, it's not likeyou said.
It's not that easy to find goodcoaches.
And then how do you like buildcommunity and make that culture
for each gym?

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, so a lot of it is done in our interview process
and that was something againlike as we go through this, if
anyone's listening, I wantpeople to understand like
everything we've learned anddeveloped was unfortunately
learned the hard way.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Oh well, we all learn .

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Those are the best lessons, and so like we, you
know every everyone who's everrun a business has heard oh, you
hire, slow fire, fast, right,and that's way easy to say and
way hard to do in practice.
But through a bunch of badhires we've learned, no, that
there's truth to that.
So for someone who wants to bea coach for us, first thing they

(43:49):
do is go through a phoneinterview with us and basically
all we're trying to get throughthat phone interview is
background, what is yourexperience?
Where do you come from?
What are your expectations?
What does your schedule looklike?
And then it's like okay, ifthere's alignment, great, come
in and take a class.
And we always want people tocome in and take a class because
that helps gauge culture fit.
Like if I'm going to be a coachand I'm a wallflower, that's

(44:11):
probably not a great start,right, no-transcript, and take

(44:34):
class.
Then after that, if it's again,this is all assuming it's an
outside hire after they takeclass, if it's like all right,
this looks like they move well,that's also a thing.
Like I can't have someonecoaching an air squad who can't
physically do it, and so it'slike all right, they move well,
they have good rapport, theylook like they'll be a culture
fit, coming and coach a class.
So we give them no guidelines.
Here's the workout Build awarmup.

(44:56):
Send me a like a lesson plan ofwhat your plan is for the day.
If everything looks good, runthe class and then we watch them
, coach the class and then, ifthat goes well, from there we
have an internship program andso that's done to teach them.
You know how do you assignpeople in a class.
What are our expectations whencoming to class?
So, like we have certainmarkers, like every person in

(45:17):
the class should hear their nameat least three times, the coach
should be talking for at least75% of the class.
The coach should be moving.
There should be no more thanthree, four minutes at a time.
They're standing in the samespot, right Stuff like that.
And so it's like that's wherewe teach them, and then, based
off experience, that usuallylasts anywhere from two to six
weeks, and so we go through thatfull process before anyone
coaches a class with us.

(45:37):
That's a pretty thoroughvetting.
Yeah, wow, and then.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
So you have different levels, so that's your first
level.
Yeah, the have different levels, so that's your first level.
Yeah, the person that actuallyis in most contact with the
members the athletes.
And then what is it that youguys do for each gym in terms of
community building?

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, so our general manager.
So the cool part, I think andof course I'm biased, but the
coolest part for us that I thinkabout our gyms is universally.
We have certain systems andprocesses that we have, whether
it's around a referral pipelineor how do we run this program.
But on top of that, each gymkind of has its own individual

(46:15):
personality.
And so my goal and I say thisto our general managers is like
I want you to feel like you arethe gym owner.
Now, you're not going to make100% of the decisions yourself,
right, but I want you to get tothe point where you feel
confident making 90% of thedecisions yourself.
And so what happens is thecommunity within that gym starts
to reflect the generalmanager's personality a little
bit.
And so what we do to help buildthat community?

(46:36):
Obviously you have the frontfacing of the GMs I'm sorry, of
the coaches, but for someone whocomes into our gym brand new,
they start in what we call oursix-week program, our FitLean
project.
Everyone who walks through thedoor for their first six weeks
gets unlimited classes, they getan individualized meal plan and
the GM is their accountabilitycoach.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
Just every new member .
Every new member Really, yeah,wow, so it's almost like an
induction period, because youwant them really closely
monitored for all of that stuff,correct?
That's a great idea.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Because a lot of people will fall off in those
first couple of weeks, yeah.
And so the GM is there saying,hey, you had.
And then every week they stepon our in-body scale to track
progress.
And so it's like cool, you hada great way, and this is what I
saw.
Make sure you're doing this ornot a great way in this week,
what?
So it helps keep them on track,right.
And then if they're not showingup, we have that process, so

(47:26):
the GM could be like, hey, youhaven't been here, what's going
on?
And so it helps make sure thatpeople are coming into the gym.
And that's huge from acommunity standpoint, because
most people are not used togoing to gym and getting that
support Right.
It's hey, you signed thecontract, great, that's all I
care about.
And so that helps.
And then, after they progressinto the membership, we have
different things along the wayto help ingratiate them into the

(47:47):
community.
So like, for example, once youconvert into a member, you get a
welcome box from us which has abranded shaker bottle, a free
t-shirt, sticker, sunglasses,like all this stuff with our
logo all over it.
Nice, so you get that.
Then, in addition to that, youprogress into membership.
Everyone who progresses out ofour challenge gets what we call
our level two meal plan, so youget nutrition guidance.

(48:08):
It's like all-inclusive.
It's part of our membership.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
That's just automatic .
Automatic, so it's always there.
Nutrition is always part of it.
Yes, because it should be right.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Yes, yeah, and so that's the way we look's always
there, um, and then from therewe do things where, uh,
community events.
So we have a community eventcalendar for the entire year
built out.
The year before that we maketweaks to, um, you know, our

(48:38):
coaches are and our staff isvery in tune to making sure that
people are showing up to thegym.
So we have a system.
We call it our SOS list.
You know, save our shit, right?
So we get a report where ifsomeone hasn't been to the gym
for two weeks, they pop up onthe report and our general
managers are reaching out tothem to get back into the gym.
So it's a lot of like theMarines, like no man left behind

(49:01):
, right?
And I think a lot of that, plusthe fact that RGM feels
supported, allows them to buildthat awesome community.
Because what a lot of peopledon't talk about is you have a
lot of gym owners who, frankly,are tired, burnt out and broke,

(49:29):
and it's really hard to build acommunity when you're worried
about am I going to pay the rentthis month, right?
And so my thing was like if wecould rewind back to what I said
a while back, where it was likeI wanted to coach at that one
gym, but I was like you can't dothis full time without owning
the gym was like I want tocreate an atmosphere where you
have people who love fitness,they love CrossFit.
They're not sure how they coulddo it to make a living.
And when I started, it waseither you had a full-time job
and you coached classes justbecause you loved it.

(49:50):
You did it full-time but youwere dirt broke, or you own the
gym and you were probably dirtbroke anyways.
And so I want to create thiswhere it's like no, you can earn
a real living doing this, youcan have access to benefits
doing this, you can be able tosay, hey, I take a paycheck home
, I can support a family andhaving that stability also
allows our GMs to pour in ourmembers.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
So, first of all, who does your nutrition work for
you?
Do you have anyone dedicated,or is it a program that you buy
in?

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah, so we have tiers.
So phase one is we have acouple of different meal plan
templates.
So based around your body fat,your size, your goals.
It's like cool, you fit intothis, into this box.
Yep, and it's very it'srestrictive, but it's
restrictive because our goal isto get people results quick
within those six weeks, becauseif I can get you results,

(50:36):
basically I'm showing you thatwe can get you results Right.
And so if you don't get resultsquick, like the first meal plan
is not something we'd recommendpeople being on for three years
.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Right right.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
But it's like, oh, I lost 10 pounds.
Well, now I've convinced youthat I know what I'm talking
about.
So it's like a reset chat,exactly.
So now it's like, okay, cool,I've earned your trust.
Now I can use the next year anda half to educate you on what's
best to eat for your body.
So that's phase one.
Then phase two we start to lookat your markers on our in-body
scale, and so it's more in tuneto, like, what is your lean

(51:05):
muscle mass look like?
And we have a formula we'llenter into a sheet to help spit
that out.
Phase three is then macros, andthen we're this close we're not
there yet, but we're this closeto developing what we're
calling phase four, which isone-on-one macro coaching.
So if you're familiar with,like RP, strength or M2, like
they do that and it was ouropinion it's like, well, why

(51:28):
don't we have that?
Yeah, and so we have a couplecoaches that went through like a
precision nutrition course orsome other courses, and then
we're just building out thesystem now.
So that's like okay, whetheryou're someone brand new who
hasn't eaten broccoli in 10years, or someone who's like no,
I'm trying to shred and likecompete at like regionals, like
we can have someone to coach youthrough that.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
So the general managers are full-time employees
?
Yeah, and they manage one gymor multiple gyms.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
So they manage one location.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
That's it.
Wow, so, like you said, they'remanaging all the daily issues
that, like a gym owner, wouldprobably have to handle.
Yeah, that's what they do.
Yeah, and then, after thatlayer of administration, it goes
to you who manages all thegeneral managers, or there's
another layer?

Speaker 2 (52:11):
So it was me and that was exhausting, and so we're
building out a true corporatestructure now.
So we have one woman her nameis Shannon Flannery, who ran our
women's gym, and she isunbelievable.
She took over our women's gympost-covid.
She was previously a teacher,left, left education.

(52:33):
I remember having aconversation with her, like shan
, like the gym was struggling,and I was like I, I can only pay
you this and she was coaching18 hours a week.
Wow, doing sale, like she wasjust like grinding.
Wow, that's like super person.
Super person Built the gym,built the membership up.
Then we had to move.

(52:53):
So that was the other thing.
Post COVID was the landlord.
At the time we had a manageablerent and he's like I want this
much for the space and it waslike almost double of what our
rent was oh my God, and I waslike we can't afford that.
So we had to move the gym.
And we moved the gym and notonly did we move, but we had to
cut the space down.
It was probably like 33% of theprevious gym size, oh my gosh.

(53:15):
So it was a lot.
It was very turbulent time andShannon's so good at her job
that she continued to get peopleresults.
She continued to build thecommunity and the gym grew.
The membership grew despite thesmaller space.
So she then became our firstdistrict manager and then so she
manages what we call our SussexMorris district.

(53:37):
So any gym in Sussex and MorrisCounty is her purview.
How many gyms are there?
Is that right?
So right now that's the two inSparta and one in Denville and
it will be Ledgewood.
So she'll have four.
Yep, okay.
And then in December, you know,joe and I met and he was kind
of like we're drawing stuff on awhite board.
We met for like four hours.
I'm like all right, where arewe going?
And we looked at the board andhe circled me and we're like

(54:02):
you're, you're the bottleneck,like I was the bottleneck for
the growth of the business.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Oh, for growth?
Yeah, because I only had somuch time and only all those
decisions had to go through youin terms of getting things done
and so he was like we need tohire a second district manager.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
And I was like, can we afford to do that?
And he's like we'll figure itout.
So I was like, okay.
So we started to search for adistrict manager and I ended up
connecting with an old friend.
His name's that you, you may ormay not know.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Dave, I saw that announcement.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
I mean he's right down the street where it started
, at Hawthorne.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah.
So I knew I've known Dave andNast for a while, yeah, and so I
reached out to them.
I'm like, do you know anyonewho might want this job?
And Dave texted me.
He's like you know what I mightwant that job?
And because him and Nasted soldtheir gym, yeah, and they're
great people, christian peopleyeah, I've met through different

(54:58):
churches and Christian groupsand he was taking care of his
father and was like I need tofind something new.
So we talked and I had oneinterview with with him and I
was like listen, man, I got totake you through the process
just because I have to like tofeel good about it.
But I'm like I'm going to hireyou, right, and he's been

(55:20):
dynamite, yeah, um, and so tohave the two of them.
He's in charge of what we'recalling now our Essex Union
District.
Okay, so any gyms in Essex andUnion County right now.
He was also in charge of Steam,but with Steam coming away, he
unfortunately only has two gymsright now, but as soon as Summit
opens he'll have three, and sothat is now the new corporate

(55:40):
structure.
And that is what makes me superexcited is like I can now say to
someone who I'm looking to hirefor a general manager position.
Hey, you're really good at yourjob and you're leaving your mom
and pop gym because you want togrow.
Well, you can come to our gym.
You can earn a salary, havecommission and bonuses and play,
do personal training, make agood living.

(56:01):
If you love that gym and wantto stay there, great, you can
stay there for forever.
But if you want to continue togrow, there's a position above
that which is a district manager, and now you can manage
anywhere from four to eight gymsplus, and that could be your
next thing.
And then our goal is, as wegrow from there, we would
develop regions, right?
So like, maybe a region is thestate of New Jersey and you
might have four or five, sixdistrict managers under you.

(56:23):
So that's kind of the corporatestructure we're building.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
I can see where your plans are in the future here.
They're big, yes, like very bigyeah, and I guess I can only
say I would believe it becauseof all of the hard knocks you
guys went through.
Like you said, this system hasonly come out because it's been
tried and true for multipleyears and multiple locations and

(56:47):
multiple systems and, like youguys have sort of closed off all
the loopholes, leaks, problems,potential issues that might
come up.
How many gyms in your wildestdreams would you see yourself in
in five years?
Yeah, so it's funny.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
You should say that.
So we have a corporate goal wewant to have 2,000 members by
2026 and 20,000 members by 2034.
Wait, so how many do you haveright now?
So so we ended last year atabout 690 members.
Okay, so by the end of 2026 wewant 2,000, which in our
estimation, is about 14 to 16gyms, and then we want 20,000 by

(57:26):
the end of 2034, which, by ourmath, is about 14 to 16 gyms.
And then we want 20,000 by theend of 2034, which, by our math,
is around 115 to 120.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
How do you?
I mean, you are very confidentthat you can compete against all
of these other not CrossFitgyms but, like you said, these
other types of fitness placeslike Alpha Fit Club, f45, orange
Theory.
What makes you guys better thanany of those people?

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Yeah.
So, in our opinion, what makesus better is a couple of things.
One is, I think our structureis better in the sense that our
general managers actually havesupport With those other
companies or franchises, and sothere's no real corporate
support.
The way a franchise works isyou're given the playbook, you
pay a certain amount of moneyinto the pot so you can get the

(58:16):
playbook, and then every monththey take a certain percentage
so you can use their name ontheir building.
But a lot of the ins and outs islike okay, this is how we
market.
And you're like okay, so that'show we market.
But who's to say that marketingworks well for your area,
whereas for us it's very muchlike these ads don't work here,

(58:36):
but they work over here, sowe'll run them over here and
we'll figure out what works overhere.
And so what happens is youdon't get the corporate support
and a lot of those locations endup floundering, and that was
reinforced because we've hadpeople from those companies
apply for jobs with us, andthat's what they've said is like
I've had to figure this all outon my own.
The other thing I think thatmakes us better is because of

(58:57):
that corporate support.
We put so much into the programitself, Whereas when you're
selling franchises, from acorporate perspective, my goal
is to sell franchises.
My goal is not to get moremembers or improve their offer.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
It's just the number of franchises you have.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Exactly, and then it's on the franchisee to manage
that, whereas corporately,because we're all so owned, our
goal is to make the program sogood that people don't want to
leave.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
The issue is and I see this is one are it's a it's
a push pull situation.
One is you're putting a lot ofauthority like you're
decentralizing it so like as youget bigger, your district
managers take on moreresponsibilities.
The general managers the youknow like to make sure that the
product in each gym becausethat's how it works yeah, the

(59:48):
product has to be successful.
So you're pushing a lot ofauthority down for a lot of
these people, but on the otherhand, you also have a lot of
responsibility on you becausenow you're also overseeing more
and more of these people to makesure that their authority is
being used appropriately andthey're being guided
appropriately, right.

(01:00:08):
So it's like at some point.
It's like how many more ChrisHardenbergs can you get?
How many more Dave Whitsons canyou get?
How many more Shaka's can youget?
It really depends on findingthat and continuing to grow that
.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Yeah, and a lot of it is.
You know, I'm trying to impressupon some of our district
managers.
Now it's like, okay, you're nownot Dave necessarily, but more
Shannon, just because Dave.
Dave was not a general managerwith us writing from somewhere
else, but Shannon was a generalmanager and so she ascended and
it's like, okay, you need to nowreframe your sales, like you're
not selling memberships anymore, you're selling employees and

(01:00:44):
so you're selling.
Why should this person work forus?
Right?
And then that that's a lot ofthat conversation is like, okay,
she now has to vet out is thisperson a good fit for us and are
they going to get in line withwhat we want to do and resonate
with the vision we have goingforward?
And that was something we hadour first annual like conference

(01:01:06):
this year to kind of talk abouta lot of that stuff.
And one of the things we saidwas like here's the goals 2,000
members by the end of 2026,20,000 by the end of 2034.
We're going and so if you're in, get on, if you're not, that's
fine, but you got to get offthen, because we're going, no
matter what.

(01:01:27):
If you're not, that's fine, butyou got to get off then,
because we're going, no matterwhat.
And then I think the other thingthat separates us is a lot of
those programs are very watereddown, in the sense it's like
Orange Theory as an example Verycardio heavy, yes, not a lot of
weights, yeah.
And so what we see a lot ispeople get great results in the
first two months, then theyplateau because they're not
building any muscle.
People get great results in thefirst two months, then they
plateau because they're notbuilding any muscle, right.

(01:01:47):
And so we say, okay, hey, weoperate off of sound strength
training principles.
That's why we lift weights, andwe lift weights that are
moderately heavy or heavy foryou, and we vary what those
things are to help you buildmuscle, because if you build
muscle, you burn more caloriesat rest, and if you do that,
you're able to have a leanerdisposition as well as just a

(01:02:08):
healthier lifestyle.
And then you also have theCrossFit effect of different
progressions to build to, whichkeeps people hooked from a
fitness perspective.
And so we think that aspect ofour program blows the other
programs out of the way.
And then, in addition to that,we also, like I said, we include
nutrition, where a lot of thesegyms just don't do it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
I think that's a kicker.
Yeah, that's, that's the key.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Yeah, and then and then also the um, the
accountability Right, and so weknow, like we had a gentleman
who used to work for us, whopreviously worked at Orange
Theory, and they said that theaverage membership length was
people.
Someone would stay with thatgym for three months, like that
was the average length someonestayed, whereas at our locations
it's anywhere from 1.3 to 1.5years.
Yeah, and so it's like havingthat ability to continue to

(01:02:53):
affect change allows people tostay for longer, and why that's
important is because if someonestays longer, they get better
results and if they get betterresults they tell everyone they
know, versus these othercompanies which are basically
banking on investor dollars tofeed into the marketing machine,
to replace the conveyor belt ofpeople going out the back door.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
You must have some amazing back end systems to deal
with all this, because there'sa lot of metrics you guys are
keeping track of.
I do remember when I did mysign in at Roseland I mean it
was all on iPad, it was prettyquick I mean, as long as you
don't read the 50 pages ofdisclaimer which everyone has
and I quickly got three emailsand you know, with my account

(01:03:34):
stuff, all this other stuff,like you know, it was really
really, really fast and I wasable to log in, look at, like
membership options, this, thatevery other thing.
I thought it was about as goodof a back-end system as I ever
saw.
And is this the one that youguys have always standardized on
and always yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
So we've used this system for a long time.
We're actually in the processof gradually transitioning out
of this system.
Really, yeah, a lot of it isbecause we are now at a point
where we're outgrowing thatsystem from a location
standpoint.
Oh, I see.
So a great example is thesystem we're working on,
migrating to MindBody.
They have the ability to, inour branded app, have a dropdown

(01:04:15):
menu with the location, I see.
So you can click the dropdown,select your location, find out
what the schedule is and then,if you're I'm a Roseland member
but I happen to be in I don'tknow, ledgewood or Roxbury for a
meeting, I know the schedulecan pop into the Ledgewood
location.

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
I see, I've done that for yoga studios and the
MindBody Pretty popular withthose guys.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Yeah, so Pike has been great.
The backend system we're usingnow, it's just one of those
things where it's like, okay,they can't keep up with us and,
like a lot of tech companies,their support got cut post COVID
.
So it's a lot of AI and botcommunication which can be okay,
but when it's like, no, no, Ineed to get someone physically
on the phone to work throughthis issue.

(01:04:57):
They're not great with that,whereas MindBody, with our
program, it's like no, we havean account person, so if I have
an issue, I can email Steve orcall Steve and he can help me
fix the issue, did you?

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
envision yourself when you first started, right
out of college, that you wouldbe in the position that you are
Because you're not doingcoaching, you're not teaching.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
You're not doing like you're in gym stuff.
You're like a high-level admin.
Business growth Like this is acompletely different skill set
that you ended up growing overthe past 10 years and in order
to get to where you are, likewhen you look at yourself now,
like is this great?
Like you're like blown awayexcited.
This is like did you ever thinkthis is where you would end up?

(01:05:40):
Being no shot?
No.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
I know, cause when I graduated, I was like my big
thing was like, all right, I'mgoing to'm sorry teach gym and
I'm, I want to coach wrestling,because that's what I did.
I was a wrestler and I was likeI want to coach high school
wrestling and be a head highschool wrestling coach and and
as things morphed and progressed, I realized, okay, yeah, like I
actually really like thisfitness thing and I always liked

(01:06:03):
fitness or lifting weights,like I in high school I played
football, I wrestled and I I wasone of those people who, like,
really enjoyed the off season,cause it was like I just get to
lift weights and feel strong.
Right, I thought I lookedstrong, but I wasn't because I
was so skinny, but like, um it,I enjoyed it, and so it was like
, okay, it started to progressthat way.
And then, as it progressed thatway, I thought it would just be

(01:06:23):
coaching people, right, like,all right, I'm going to coach
class.
And then, um, you mentioned Ido a little bit of remote
coaching now, and when I was atParsippany, I had at one time, I
want to say I had 10 to 20clients I did like individual
program design for and I thoughtthat was what I was going to do
and I didn't really have aninterest in the business side,
um, but things gradually changedthe more I moved up in station

(01:06:48):
athletics.
I was still with sales, I stillhad a role in some of the
coaching and programming stuff,but it became less and less
prominent.
And I think where things reallytook off for me from a business
perspective was actually post2021.
So in 2021, I competed on ateam in in uh quarterfinals Okay
, and I remember doing it and itwas and it was with three other

(01:07:10):
people.
Two of them are still at ourgyms.
One guy actually moved down toFlorida and I remember getting
done and I like gave iteverything I had.
And I looked at thequarterfinal leaderboard and I
was like we finished 151st and Iliterally like it might sound
crazy, but I took a step backand I was like you know, I'm not

(01:07:34):
that great at this and so I waslike I need to take a step back
from this.
I was already starting to feellike I had two kids at this time
, like my time was being pulledin a lot of different directions
.
I was like it was one of thoselike cognitive dissonance where
it's like should I still beputting in two and a half hours,
three hours of training everysingle day.
And so I went through thisperiod of like almost like

(01:07:55):
morning to be like I'm not that,I'm not that dude.
But then it's like, where do Iput my competitive outlet?
And I realized through likesome podcasts, I listened to
some books I read, starting totrack the metrics a little bit
more that I was like oh wait, asecond Business is a sport I
could play for the rest of mylife.
So you treat business like asport A hundred percent.

(01:08:15):
So now it's like I look for PRsin memberships, I look for PRs
in revenue growth.
That's where it's like itjuices me up, Sam, when I'm like
, oh man, we PR this month andrevenue Right.
So that became my sport ofchoice.
Where it's like I think aboutit all the time.
So that's what really got meinto.

(01:08:37):
The business side is when Ireally started to feel that like
business was a sport or a gamethat it's like, oh okay, like
this is my new competitiveavenue I love love that, that to
be able to switch from that tothat is, uh, something I think a
lot of people could take awayand actually use as a guide for
their success yeah, for sure wow.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
So for anyone else that's uh in the space that is
listening to you and saying howdo I become chris harden, like,
what would your advice be forthem?

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
You know my advice would be to try.
You know I give this advice tothere's a woman who works for us
right now.
She's our general manager atDenville.
She's 23 years old and shewandered into Roseland.
Her and her boyfriend drivefrom Blairstown to Roseland to
work out.
Oh my God, yeah, and I rememberwhen she started working for us

(01:09:32):
and I go Felicia, your jobright now is to learn as much as
humanly possible, and so myadvice would be that is to don't
have an ego.
Seriously Approach everysituation like you don't know
anything and try to learn asmuch as humanly possible.
Take a posture of a student,because the more you do that,

(01:09:54):
the more you learn.
And if you can be a directimplementer of that and be like
cool, I've learned this thing,I'm going to do it now, you
start to build a skillset and atoolbox that will advance, going
forward and that's kind of whathappened for me with Joe was
like he just kept throwing stuffat me.
I was like, all right, I'mgoing to learn how to do this
and then I would implement it.

(01:10:14):
And then he just knew that ifhe threw something at me, I was
going to figure it out.
And as someone who is abusiness owner and management
that person and this is againwhen I'm trying to press upon
new people with us you don'tunderstand how valuable that
person is, that I don't have tomicromanage you, that I can just
say, hey, we need to get thisdone and get to the next thing,

(01:10:34):
and you say okay, and you get itdone.
That's the person that is goingto continue to progress forward
.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
Don't be afraid of all those hard knocks, because
they will really teach you a lot.
If you can get up and keepgoing, you can end up where you
are it looks like.
Thank you so much, chris.
I learned a lot.
I'm really inspired by this andI really wish you guys all the
success.
I have a feeling that yourgoals might actually be lower

(01:11:02):
than where you guys might end upbeing just listening to I Sure
Hope so how you guys operate.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, sam, appreciate it.