Right Man Wrong Time

It was our pleasure to sit down with the great writer and educator Roland Lazenby. This 90 minute interview focuses primarily on his most recent piece in the Roanoker Magazine highlighting his time spent around Coach Brent Pry and the Hokies over the course of this Spring and Summer through the prism of NIL and the modern college football landscape. We dive into more big picture questions for the Hokies beyond the 2025 season: Can we keep up in the NIL era? Is this sustainable for college football at large? Is Pry the right man for the task? Be sure to checkout the piece, Love in the Time of NIL, by subscribing or grabbing the latest issue of the Roanoker Magazine.

If you want more Roanoker Magazine content you can visit:

Roanoker Magazine Virginia Tech landing page: https://theroanoker.com/VT

Roland Lazenby's Exclusive sit-down with Coach Pry: https://theroanoker.com/VT/Coach-Pry-Exclusive/

Get a copy of the issue: https://leisuremedia360.lpages.co/get-our-special-vt-issue/

Roanoker Magazine YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@roanokermagazine  

Episode Transcript

(01:47):
And welcome back to the BoundaryCorner Podcast, a part of the
College Huddle Network. Along with my partner, Brian
Siegler, I'm Curtis Wilson, and this episode is brought to you
by Doctor Jeremy Counts down at the Counts Family Pharmacy, your
friendly neighborhood pharmacy, three O 1 S Main St. in
Blacksburg. We are also brought to you by
Moments on the Mori. Are you looking for a weekend

(02:09):
getaway but still want to make it to Blacksburg for the game?
Then Moments on the Mori is exactly what you're looking for.
Owned by Proud Hokie and locatedjust outside Lexington, VA, this
place gives you fishing, kayak and canoeing or just relaxing by
or in the river right outside your back door.
So check out the links in our comments section or at Instagram

(02:30):
at Moments on the Morgue. Brian, we got a couple very
special guests on tonight for a very special episode.
So let's bring in our first guest.
She is the wonderful wife of OurMusic Man and the editor of the
Roanoke Magazine. Long time friend of ours
colleague. Long.

(02:51):
Time. Long time.
Liz. Long How are you, Liz?
I'm well, how are you guys? Oh, doing so good, doing so
good. We appreciate you coming on with
us tonight. And it's it's a special night.
I feel like this is this has been something that we've been
really excited about and we've been talking about for a couple
weeks now. So very excited to bring it to

(03:12):
fruition. Well, thank you guys for having
me and of course for having our guest that you're going to
introduce here in a minute. Really appreciate the time and
really excited to chat about what's going on for this
episode. So when the article we're going
to be discussing tonight, when will folks down in the New River
Valley, those who have the role in Okra magazine, when will they
see this? So it should be hitting
subscriber mailboxes later on this week, so August 18th

(03:36):
through the 21st typically as your USPS man arrives at your
doorstep. And then of course, they'll be
hitting news stands over the next week or two over that.
So by the 1st week of September,you should be able to go to all
your local spots, not only your Barnes and Nobles and your
Kroger's, but also Crystal Spring Grocery.
You've got your Barnes and Nobleand Christiansburg, of course in
New River Valley. We're also going to have some
special places in the New River Valley and Blacksburg that are

(03:56):
carrying it for us, especially for this particular issue.
So we'll list all that stuff on our website and we'll be sure to
share that cuz we're gonna have this episode on our website too
and make sure to link everythingfor people.
We appreciate that. I did not know we were gonna be
on the website, Ron, we're gonnabe on the website.
We're gonna be on the website, man, that's gonna be cool.
So before we bring rolling on tokind of talk through what this

(04:18):
is all about, let's let's let's throw the cover up here.
Yeah, it's. So exciting.
It's such a great cover. I'm so proud of this one.
We just got a sample today in our office.
I'm holding my hands now. This photo and the photos inside
that you're going to see in the feature are by the fabulous
Aaron Spicer. He's a local photographer here
in Ronan, Virginia, and he does photography all over.

(04:39):
He has photographed so many amazing people.
And so we're very, very lucky that he not only has the time
and love for his local magazine,his local city magazine, but of
course for the time and the effort and all the skill that
went into photographing Coach Pry and, and the amazing work
that you're going to see I see inside this issue.
It's exciting stuff. And I mean, I know when we got a

(05:01):
little bit of an early sample there and got to take a look at
what was going on in preparationfor this and really a whole lot
of insight and it looks like a whole lot of work behind the
scenes that go into this thing that you put out every month.
Yeah, so what's very interestingabout the magazine world,
especially in terms of the Roanoke magazine, we're
bimonthly, which means it is a, you know, it's a 2 month issue,

(05:21):
so we have to plan pretty far inadvance.
I actually tend to plan on editorial about a year in
advance. So that gives you any idea of
how long I've been wanting this story to come to fruition.
And so to give a little background, you know, obviously
we live here in Roanoke, VA. We're surrounded by, you know,
Virginia Tech Hokies and just the love that all of the fans
have for the school and the teamand especially the football

(05:41):
team. And so it's very easy for us to
think about, you know, how college football is going to go
around here because go ACC, right?
So we thinking about the magazine.
We've been around for 52 years and we have covered Virginia
Tech football as well as other Virginia Tech sports and of
course, regional sports. But we have covered Coach
Beamer. He's been on our cover at least
once or twice. We've had all sorts of different

(06:03):
opportunities to interview and cover the many, many years of
great Virginia Tech football. So about a year ago, I believe,
honest to God, I think we we're sitting here watching your
podcast and I started thinking about Virginia Tech football and
the way you guys were talking about it.
I am a fan, of course, I love sports, but I don't necessarily
get the statistics the way you do.
But you know, what I can do is Ican figure out how to tell a

(06:24):
story. So I figured I would really love
to dive in, not only to coach pride and the football team, but
you know, Jason and you guys andeverybody's been talking about
the NIL and how all this comes together in terms of a national
story. And so when I was thinking about
how to do this story, there was literally, I'm not even joking,
literally really no other writerin this world that I would
rather have write this piece than Mr. Roland Lazenby.

(06:46):
Not only because of his background and just the prolific
writing that he's able to do, but he's a local.
He knows the stories. He literally has worked in
communications, you know, and sports writing for, for decades
for Virginia Tech, for our region.
And so he was the one and only choice.
And thank goodness because he was so gracious in taking this
piece on and being able to do itin the midst of his busy

(07:07):
schedule between documentaries and sports writing and
magazines. So he's just not only a
wonderful sports writer and a great friend of mine, but just
really generous with his time. So huge shout out to him for
covering this piece. And I'm happy to talk more about
the article. But he's going to be such a
wonderful interview and I can't wait for your leader, listeners
and readers and and viewers to meet him and to learn more about

(07:28):
him. Absolutely, Liz.
And you know, seeing the work already.
We we got a sneak preview to it.The article was unbelievable.
We just spent a few minutes backstage with Roland.
So we look forward to it. And again, we really appreciate
you getting us this straight up getting us this, because I don't

(07:50):
know if we would have landed in any other way if one of a guy
I've known since elementary school's wife had not gotten
with Roland and running this unbelievable article.
So we thank you for all of that.And we, I don't know, it's, it's
tough to say because, you know, little connections in the world
go a long way. Right.

(08:11):
I feel like it's Prismet truly. And, and really I, I think that
this story is so important, not again, not only in terms of
Virginia Tech football, but the NIL applies to every college
across the nation, right? All college athletes, their,
their families, the teammates, the staff and sports and
coaches, everybody that's working together is involved in
this story in some way. And so this is not just a

(08:32):
regional story, it is a nationalstory.
And again, what better persons tell this story and to care more
about his insights and Roland Lazenby perfection.
All right. Well, that's Brian.
Yeah, let's Liz. Talked him up twice.
Let's let's do a little introduction and bring him in
here. All right, Liz, we appreciate
the time spending with you tonight.

(08:53):
Yes, thank you. I hope readers can pick up a
copy as soon as possible. You're really going to enjoy
this story. And thank you so much for
supporting your local city magazine, your favorite college
football podcast, and of course,just readership in general.
We really appreciate your support.
Thank you. And go, Hokies, obviously go.
Hokies. All right, well, again, without
further ado, let's let's let's bring him on.
It's Roland Lazenby, member of the Department of Communication

(09:16):
at both Virginia Tech and Radford, writer of more than
five dozen books on basketball and football, including works on
the Final Four, the Showtime Lakers, the 90s, Bulls, Colt
Legend, Johnny U, Tom Brady and of course, the the run of late
with Jerry West, Kobe Bryant, and wrote the book on the life

(09:39):
of Michael Jordan. Here he is, guys.
Rolling lays at me. Boy, that was tough.
She, you know, there's too many people around here that know me.
Anyway, she is sweet. Yeah, this is great.

(10:01):
Again, we, we, we've known Liz for a while and she's definitely
one of the best people that there is out there.
A while we've known her 20 plus years, college, college
classmates, married again, one of our good friends and Roland.
Before we even start the questions and let you unload
here, thank you for a giving us your time.

(10:22):
But I think, yeah, I tell you man, I sell autographs too for a
dollar. So you guys are keeping me from
my fortune. There we go.
But but but also, I think in thecoming weeks here, thank you for
writing this piece because I think you're going to be under
uncovering a lot for Hokie Nation and things.
Maybe the way again, we've gotten Privy to the article

(10:43):
already, the way it was written,I think some eyes are going to
open up about what's going on with the future of NIL transfer
portal and just college sports in general.
And Speaking of that, let's let's kick it right off.
The collegiate arms race has completely changed.
It used to be the best facilities, the nice jerseys,

(11:03):
the swag packages, boosters dropping thousands of dollars in
kids cars and that's where they went to school because that's
who gave them the money. And now we're compensation is
pay or play. When all of this started coming
downhill, you've been writing sports books.
You mentioned you know you were Georgetown in 85 when they cost

(11:27):
you some money with a book deal.But as you started seeing this
come down, what is just your thought on the change of college
sports in general with the with the thought of NIL?
Well, as we all know, college sports has been all sports has
changed dramatically constantly over a century and a half.

(11:51):
However long you want to take spectator sports in America
back, you know, I've written a lot of books.
I wrote a history of Virginia Tech football in 86.
And the program had cratered right then.
So I think it may be sold 1000 copies.
I don't know. And but it left me determined
that whatever I did in life, I was going to try to write books

(12:12):
and had a chance of selling. And of course, right in the
cratering of the Bill Dooley eraand some of the gross
miscalculations there, here comes Frankie Beamer there.
We go. And you know, I've, I've, I have
to say, I've had a lot of fun riding for the Roanoke or over

(12:33):
the years. Probably the most involving
story for me was writing about Frank's family.
They, they, you know, he explained to me one night in the
hallway that they were the Allens who shot up the

(12:56):
courthouse in Carroll County, New York Times.
All of that and, and the stain on his family and his mother,
Herma, her brother, Frank's uncle, who championed him.
And so his uncle finally things got to him.
He committed suicide when Frank was a junior at Virginia Tech.

(13:21):
And so it's a very hard story, but a very important story is
The Who Frank was. And this came out years ago on
the Roanoke are but the Roanoke has given me nice opportunity to
to do stories that matter to me and Virginia Tech does.
I went to VMI because I hated Virginia Tech and you know, I

(13:46):
was helping my old man put insulation in the ceiling of a
cabin we had and listening to the 1969 Tech VMI game.
And the year before Tech had waxBMI 70 to 10 and VMI or 70 to

(14:09):
12. It was 70 to 12 and VMI won in
6912 to 10. And not only did I, I had it's
the only college I applied to. I had terrible grades and but I
got in, I had good boards. But anyway, I got to play
football at VMI as a walk on andso that I was tell my grandsons

(14:33):
that was my Super Bowl, but alsogetting to play, I believe in
the last Shrine game between theback then freshmen weren't
eligible. We scrimmaged varsity four days
a week, but to scrimmage againstthe Tech football team and, and
you know, we arrived in one bus,We had like 45 on the roster and

(14:56):
Tech gave I believe 90. Scott, there was no limit on
scholarships and Tech soaked up every available player.
That's one reason I'm sure I wasa walk on and they had, they
gave something like 90 freshman scholarship that year.

(15:17):
So it it was an object lesson tome in the the great lust of the
Hokies for what would you call it, prominence, dominance, I
don't know, but they've always had that.
And of course, I taught at Tech 11 years from 99 pivotal years

(15:42):
in the terms of the program. I taught there full time from 99
to 2010. And I taught media writing to,
you know, 120 sophomores a year a semester.
So I, I, I love Tech. I was there through the
difficult times. But the important thing is the

(16:03):
whole dynamic that everyone knows.
I mean, what a wonderful thing to have Metallica.
That was a religious experience.Yes, it was.
And you know, the first team, they had a concert to raise

(16:24):
money for the first very first team.
Faculty members, wife of sopranogave a concert and they gave all
the proceeds to the football team.
So there's tradition there. And you know, the early days,
everybody showed up in horse andbuggies with the school colors.
I don't think they were Chicago maroon and burnt orange at

(16:45):
first, but I could be wrong. Black and Gray, black, black
and. Gray if I.
Recall, Yeah. And so this runs deep in the
Southwest Virginia hills that weall love.
This is serious business and theeconomy.
I mean, Virginia Tech is such a generator from all the medical

(17:10):
apparatus and research and operation in Roanoke.
Just so many things so importantto this state.
And yet, you know, I'm in. I've edited Lindy's pro
basketball annual and Al Birmingham for 31 years now few

(17:33):
years back, Lindy who owns a he's a he's a lawyer who never
practiced law. He publishes.
He's University of Alabama graduate and he had me come.
He says you've never seen anything like this.
I said Lindy, I'm I'm really hada lucky life covering the NBA
and spent the 90s with the Bulls.

(17:55):
What are you talking about? I go down there, I've never seen
anything like the University of Alabama.
You know, they got acres and acres of tailgating.
It's I mean, it would make Tex Saturday look like a country
picnic. It is huge.
I mean, you the scope of it and you know, they have maximized

(18:21):
the whole football mojo thing interms of out of state tuition.
They they rake in 10's and 10s of millions a year to the point
and they're all there to coast sitting at football stadium on
Saturdays to the point that 50% of their students at the

(18:43):
University of Alabama are from some place other than Alabama.
They have more out of state tuition than in state tuition.
Now Virginia Tech has always been, it's had a a long term
tie. You know Hank Crisp, Virginia

(19:04):
Tech's one arm football player from back in the 20s Hank Crisp
coached at Alabama for years. Frank Mosley was Bear Bryant's
roommate, Frank Mosley who was the coach and then the AD at
Tech and Alabama and Virginia Tech went at each other.

(19:26):
And so Virginia Tech with Vick'sappearance in 99 right when I I
started teaching there. Man, that mojo of that out of
state tuition, which is vital inthis age.
Higher education is challenged like never before.

(19:48):
And I don't want to get into thepolitical factors of that, but
it is challenged for a variety of reasons.
And Virginia Tech has a sweet mojo.
People love to come down there and get crazy.
They love to jump up and down. They like to do that whole
thing. ESPN loves to put it on their

(20:09):
broadcast. It is a mojo.
Those kids see it, and that's sweet.
That booger fat out of state tuition helps drive the whole
thing. And if you can do all that
jumping around, if you will makeall that noise and get all that

(20:33):
brouhaha going, you got to have you a football team.
There we go and it is what what the price tag come up.
We're looking at, Wit said todayHe needs another what, 6570

(20:55):
million on top of the 122 that he's already got for the for the
program. Well, he's running a pro sports
franchise like every every otherschool is and that is not you
know, if you had that kind of money somebody when I was
teaching their VM is I mean VP is entire foundation was 300

(21:17):
million and then 9/11 hitting itdropped 60 or 80 million.
It's now over a billion. But that's money to spend on
research. And you know, if you raise $70
million, the idea you'd put it into some of this hokey stone
you guys got on your beautiful podcast, you'd put it into all

(21:40):
kinds of developmental things, including some athletics,
obviously. But you raised $70 million.
It's going to be gone. I won't say months, but it's
going to be gone pretty quickly because you're paying pro
salaries and you're now tech. Brent Price been very crafty

(22:04):
about what he pays and what he bids.
They found talent to compete. But it's my personal opinion.
I went down there. I didn't even ask a lot of
questions till I got to sit downwith him.
I just wanted to watch him and watch everybody, watch the
players, watch the media, question them.

(22:24):
I just wanted to look at everybody and I came away prize
a pretty cool customer. You know, when he talked to me
sort of first, one of the first things he did, he sort of
acknowledged under his breath and we got to coach a little bit

(22:46):
any you know, all the great coaches.
I've had a lot of luck. I spent the 90s with the Bulls
with Phil Jackson and Tex winnerand the great coaches are
realist to the core. They that that they're very fact
based. It's not a it's not an I
apologize for that daggone phone, not to hide it somewhere,

(23:10):
but but it you know, the great coaches are very fact based.
And I I had to I had to see is he real?
And he is he knows. I think the reset button is not
what it used to be because the there's so many moving parts,
the coaching college major college football today, it's not

(23:34):
a three or four year window. Now you can see if somebody is a
total disaster. You can see that sometimes in
two seasons. But this is this learning curve
has been substantial. And but the other big reason I
don't think that this school canafford to unless the season just

(23:57):
falls flat on its face on its face, and I don't think it will.
I don't think they can afford that.
If they got 70 million, they're certainly not thinking about
spending 5 to 8 million on another coach.
You, you got to put that money in players.
You can't put that money anywhere else.
And and, you know, somebody's going to have to come in here

(24:20):
and learn the culture to make this thing work.
Yeah. And let's talk about that a
little bit because you know, you've hit on pride a good
amount here. And kind of what were your
initial takeaways were for that?Let's talk about pride at
Virginia Tech. What is kind of a benchmark for
success in this NIL era for a Brent Pryor regime at Virginia

(24:40):
Tech? Well, it's got a coach better.
They need to win more games thatthey really have zeroed in on
winning close games. What you got to do?
I mean, I'm not, I'm, you know, if you want a coach to be a
realist, you got to be a realisttoo.
And looking at the program, but I think they got a clear window

(25:07):
to, I don't know, at least above500, maybe eight wins.
They might get another win, theymight not.
But I will tell you this, the other parallel is these new
coordinators. I think there's a really good
mojo with them. I don't think it's going to.

(25:28):
I mean, it is rapid assembly youare building all the first of
all, a lot of the values have been drained off of college
athletics. And so that's why the story's
called Love and the Time of Neil, which is a take off on the

(25:50):
Nobel Prize winning novel, Love and the Time of Cholera.
This is sort of a collar. But you know, I just wanted to,
I wanted, I wanted to look closely as these guys who stayed
here were being interviewed. And then I wanted to look at the

(26:10):
guys who had come in via the port and you know, I everything
this country's ever done, whether it's D-Day or whatever
has been 17/18/1920 year old kids, every major thing this
country's ever accomplished, it's been on those kinds of

(26:36):
fresh faces, people who are willing.
And that's what I absolutely loved about teaching at Virginia
Tech. I had the most amazing kids.
And I mean, I'm not being nostalgic.
They were just amazing and they,they're great kids.

(26:59):
It is a great place that really attracts fantastic young people.
It's had its heart breaks, but this is an existential moment,
which is what I am saying in themagazine piece because there is,

(27:21):
it's not a delicate mojo, but itis a well balanced mojo.
You have got to sustain what Frankie Beamer and Bud Foster
established. There's a, there's a grit.
It's there. Pry gets it, Coach Price, all

(27:44):
those coaches do. It is a culture.
You know a lot. I'm an NBA guy, so there's a lot
made of heat culture. Well, hokey culture.
It it is a thing that matters deeply now that that goes on at
a lot of schools. But I, I don't care about a lot

(28:04):
of the schools. I, I, I care about this one.
It is the region I've lived in my whole life.
It is the place that feeds us all or helps to feed us all.
And so the football team is important to bringing those
students. It's important to the

(28:26):
experience. Is it $70 million eaten up in
five years or four years or three years?
Important. I don't see how that's, I mean,
I went to Blacksburg this springbecause Coach Sands made this
comment almost on his side that it's not sustainable.

(28:47):
And the truth is he's absolutelycorrect.
This is not sustainable unless, you know, when, when Frankie had
his trouble, he had to fire and change his assistant coaches and
that changed the, the arc of hisnarrative at Virginia Tech.

(29:09):
He had his heart in the right place.
And so the evaluation's going tohave to be, are these the right
guys? Can we afford to, to be sort of
cavalier about it? You know, I, I will say my
observation about the hokey fan base.
I, I, I dealt with a lot of schools because I've done a lot

(29:29):
of projects with a lot of schools.
Duke, Louisville, University of Florida, the list goes on.
Billy Packer and I work togetheron a lot of things back.
I got to know Billy in the 80s when I first, when I did my
first book on Ralph Sampson and Billy and I ended up doing 5
books together and Billy is a money guy.

(29:53):
The first lesson he taught me was keep your money in your
pocket and let people give you your work to do what you're
doing. And Billy was just all over
college athletics and the economics of it.

(30:15):
And I will tell you that it's been a battle.
I don't have to tell any hokey fan.
It's been a battle to to get in the right league in the right
position. And we hit that sweet spot.
That's water under bridge now. But it is instructive.
And so you got to separate it aswater under the bridge, but you

(30:38):
got to look at what it is. You got to find players and I
think these guys are suited to do that.
They haven't shown that they can't find players.
What they've got to get better at is figuring it out.
And so I just don't think it's aone year window on this deal

(31:01):
because of that. I think you're going to get the
they got so many they got it's any bidder or you know, one of
the assets of the whole hokey culture is Andy Bitter's been
here that that is a sharp dude. I watched him work and there a
lot of those guys in media are sharp, but Andy is is a real he

(31:25):
just leads by how he does it Andhe he pointed out that they had
more four players in the portal this year than they've had in
all their years combined. It's true.
Think about those moving parts. I've coached enough.
I've had a lot of fun coaching over the years, starting with

(31:48):
being a 24 year old varsity headwrestling coach at Blacksburg
High School where I had great wrestlers.
But but the whole thing is constructing the kind of culture
that Virginia Tech's going to need to prosper, is going to
take first cool heads in the fanbase.

(32:12):
I think you got cool heads in place.
And the Hokies haven't been known for cool heads.
I mean, they have. They're no worse than anybody
else, don't get me wrong. But that's not how it works
anymore. And you know, the Hokies, they,

(32:32):
they, Al McGuire had a say, a saying, he's got the, he's got
the shortest arms and the deepest pockets.
And you know, they, they just, they just don't go reaching for
the damn money. Now, now, don't get me wrong,
there are donors and people who love Virginia Tech and have done

(32:55):
a lot. This is a lot.
Yeah. Let's.
Let's pull it back a little bit because one thing I want to talk
about is, you know, especially looking at your tenure in
Blacksburg, you know, starting with 99 there and thinking about
how college athletics has changed, particularly in that

(33:16):
kind of 2010 kind of pivot window.
And especially once NIL came along.
Did Virginia Tech as an institution and as an athletic
department do enough to capitalize on the success of
Michael Vick and that national title run and the buoyed success
of those early years in the ACC?Because the leading up to me

(33:39):
that we were behind from there and it only got worse because of
the steps we didn't take in the 2000s.
Roland, before you say, but evenbefore that, 199395 Sugar Bowl
beating up to 99. And then Roland, you were there
for the subsequent years. Ten wins, ACC titles, big bowl

(34:03):
games. To Brian's point, did you tell
how you feel? You want me to tell me?
Shut the hell up. I'm fine with it.
Did the administration drop the ball?
Because at that point in time, we were top 10 every single
year. We had players going to the NFL.
We were a brand and I will neverforget.

(34:26):
This is one of the big moments for me because I missed the
game. One of our dear friends who
passed away a few years ago, 2003 Miami was a spectacle on
ESPN. It was one of the best overlay
production of Sandman very earlyin its infancy and I could have
been in North End zone. I had an insurance payment I had

(34:47):
to make. Then I made it and I couldn't
drive the Blacksburg because I was a great college kid.
God bless Brian Wilkerson. So he found me a ticket, but I
could not make it. But did we drop it?
Because some schools get that window and they literally just
run. I don't care who we piss off.
I don't care who we make mad. We are one of the best college

(35:07):
football programs. We are going to go get every
single part that's ours, money included.
Sorry I get a little bit sometimes.
Well, I would say that we probably danced in then zone a
little bit. It was a long road to glory when
I mean having to having to listen to all that bullshit from

(35:30):
all the ACC folks all those years.
And if Mudkat Saunders hadn't found found a way with Steve
Jarding to threaten the damn governor, they wouldn't have
gotten to the. ACC.
It's true. It's so true.
And so I think in some ways it doesn't matter.

(35:55):
It I mean, the only thing that matters right now is the road
ahead. Now, were the mistakes made?
Yeah. Well, there always are.
Yeah. You know, maybe there was

(36:17):
another coach out there they could have hired besides Pry,
who maybe was, but they hired a pretty good coach.
I just don't think he ever totally bought in here.
I could be wrong about that. Got a prior for one day.

(36:37):
Yeah, but I'm saying they maybe could have hired, you know, but
it's tough to hire coaches. You know, the thing I look at
and personnel, whether it's players or coaches, You Jerry
West told me I was sitting with him in 89 and I asked him

(37:00):
because he he was coming up and he knew Magic was actually it
was 91 because Magic had alreadybeen diagnosed.
This right after that I was doing a project and I asked him
how he was going to find the next magic and he said you know
the hard part is you can see what people can do on the floor

(37:22):
what a player can do. You can see what an executive
has done, the kinds of experiences, but what you can't
read are their hearts. And so I, I just sort of went to
Blacksburg in my own sort of unscientific hillbilly way just

(37:47):
to sort of go up there and take an inventory on the arts.
That's really what a lot of thisis about, because it's going to
require hearts and wisdom and all that good stuff and, you
know, pride. Some good answers for me.
You know, he's he's not, he was a wrestler.

(38:09):
You know, you're out there aloneby yourself.
As how I explained it, I understood exactly.
You know, it's you and what you got to get done.
And I just think the circumstances are such.
And I, I, I in the article, I say the circumstances are such.

(38:34):
You may want to fire Brent Pridefor this season.
And I said, you know, go ahead, be my guest.
But you better look around on a landscape and find you some oil
wells in the fan base. And the last thing I said, my
last piece of advice is never blink at a mirage.

(38:56):
You can lose everything you think you've got in your field
of vision in an instant. I think they're making progress.
I don't think there's a more thorough guy than Phil Steele.
He thinks so. I was just and I work for Lindy,
so if I'm touting Phil Steele, you know that I'm just doing it

(39:18):
on but excuse. Me, I apologize.
You're good. But I, you know, there are
limits to each and every one of us in terms of perspective on
this thing. I think what we do have to read
is the seriousness of the changes.
And ESPN has, you know, has madethe moves it's going to make.

(39:45):
Everybody's gambling on the future.
Nobody knows what's going to happen.
I've had to do 100 Zoom interviews in the last year with
Rick Welts, who's now the president of The Mavericks.
Before that, it was the president of the Warriors.
Before that, it was the president of the Sons.
And the NBA just got $100 billion in their media rights

(40:11):
deal and their their network ratings and cable ratings are.
A little iffy or a lot if he didsome.
And so I was asking him how doesthat happen?
And his answer, he's a really bright guy.
He said. You know, it's all about 23 year

(40:31):
old eyeballs. Everybody is is trying to it's
like an Oklahoma land race for the future in media.
These people are paying for all these NBA rights.
They they're not guaranteed that's going to deliver them to
the promised land, but that's their best clear path.

(40:53):
And so that's sort of the kind of decision because each of the
schools is in the same circumstance.
You could pad your schedule backin the day.
I mean, everybody needs a break,everybody wants some tasty cakes
on the schedule. You know, you drink a little
more on game day, you, you know,your anxiety levels low.

(41:16):
But that ain't happening now because ESPN is in a life or
death struggle itself. And so they have turned all of
the force of their power on the 2 super conferences while
waiting to see if this thing realigns into some other

(41:38):
concoction. But what we know about the
richest and the strongest? I mean, this is an eternal
truth. They ain't giving it up.
They are not giving up any of this money that that the SECU.
What was Charlton Heston said about gun rights for my cold

(42:00):
dead hands? Well, the same applies to nil
money to to, you know, all of that network broadcast power
money that the SEC and the Big 10 get.
Hell, they split up the oldest one of the oldest conferences in
America, Distinguished Conference in the in the Pacific

(42:23):
and spread it all over the place.
We are running around our elbow to get to our ass to have play
games on the West Coast. That's not sustainable either.
But we do have to match up with those slightly relegated teams
because if you're worried about Virginia Tech, take a look over

(42:45):
your shoulder at the ACC. It's they're coming for them.
So that's a that leads into thisquestion and and you throw what
you think's going to happen in the next, I don't know.
They'll say ACC contract ends in2035, ten years.
What's going to happen just withthe, the conference in general?

(43:08):
Are we going to go to two Super leagues, 28 teams in the SEC, 28
teams in the Big 10? Is someone going to step in and
say, hey, we all get together, we're worth a hell of a lot more
money than we are apart? Or is it somewhere in between?
What do you see? Cause 'cause you've written and
seen sports and Senator, like you said, Rick Welts, the former

(43:32):
executive president of the, the current president of The
Mavericks, former of the Warriors.
You've been around some of theseguys like that, that have
visions and have thoughts. What do you think happens?
Well, the, the happy ending is what you just described.

(43:53):
The, the problem is that goes against human nature.
And I, I don't think anybody, we're in a competitive business
that's competition is about stepping on the other guy's neck
and keeping your foot there until he's gone.
And that is what it is. And it is the white collar crowd

(44:15):
in each of these universities. They are hungry for that baby.
And that's, that's, that's what feeds it.
That is competition in America. And so the happy ending is that
we get everybody lined up and whatever, 405060.

(44:38):
You know, I've seen Virginia Tech listed anywhere from 50, I
believe to 31 in, in various rankings this season headed into
things. I think if they somehow arranged
to get 80 teams in football. But you know, we've just had a
whole bunch of folks just jump into D1, including Liberty.

(45:04):
And Liberty is probably the bestsuited of any school in the
state just to keep shoveling cash in its sports programs
because they, they, they just have that apparatus for raking
in that money. I mean, they're not just fans,
they are religious folks. And so there's nothing wrong

(45:25):
with that. They're they're, they give to
the place they love. That's how it all works.
So the happy ending, yeah, they sort this out.
They, you know, that still makesa lot of things probably go
away. I, I I hate to see ACC
basketball go away. There are things that are near

(45:48):
and dear. They are.
They are things Change shouldn'tjust obliterate culture.
Now change does move on from culture, but the culture,
college football, the culture ofthe various conferences, that

(46:10):
resonates a lot of things, but nothing resonates like the cold
cash. Not at all.
I love what you said there a second ago about the goal is to
squeeze and kill all your competition.
But the thing about sports is you have to have competitors.

(46:33):
If you kill all your competition, who's going to turn
on the TV anymore? Who's going to say, hey, do you
want to watch Ohio State play Texas for the sixth time this
year? Well, no, I've watched the first
one. I'm I'm done with it.
And I think that's what a lot ofpeople think could happen
because right now we're in this unbelievable bubble for college

(46:57):
football and, and the whole thing you talk about that cash,
eventually you're going to kill the wrong person or the wrong
school and people are going to start turning off the.
Television, the wrong conference.
And I and I think, you know, in our discussion on and off
camera, yeah, I've talked about reasons to articulate hope.

(47:21):
And that's a big part of what I'm doing and looking at this.
And you just articulated in excellent fashion one of the
biggest pieces of hope. ESPN likes the Hokies probably
love them. I don't know if a corporation
can't, but I think so, I think. And so there are adjustments to

(47:44):
be made. It's going to require a lot of
wisdom. It's going to require a lot of
political skill. So far, the ACC is thrown enough
punches and tough enough to holdon.
I don't think the PAC 10, PAC 12, whatever it is, did that
they they gave up the money got going and that there's going to

(48:08):
be some defections. But what is going to be left and
how's it going to be spread around?
I don't know because it's it's beyond what each of us can see
and what and the huge thing clouding it is the amount of
money it takes for these colleges operates pro sports

(48:31):
teams. And it certainly means the death
of a lot more minor sports. And you know that you're going
to have people making pretty good money playing football and
basketball, and you're going to have a lot of people doing

(48:53):
excellent things in sports. But we've now let the the I'm
not a big fan of the Supreme Court.
They've just made decisions thathave wrecked American culture in
my mind. And they are holding position.
And I think this is one of them.I don't know where we get sanity

(49:14):
on this, but whatever is createdis ultimately going to end up at
the Supreme Court again, and it's not going to be able to
infringe. I don't think they're going to
back off of infringing on the name, image, likeness rights of

(49:35):
these young people playing sports.
You know that all centered on myman here, Jordan, the the NBA
was used to take him was gettingready to take the name image
likeness rights and Jordan's agent very quickly negotiated he
is ahead of that. And they they weren't able to

(49:55):
commandeer and pull Jordan away from the great wealth the market
was ready to bestow upon him. It took him a long time to get
paid his work as a player. But off the court, you know, it
was a different story. And so some of these players,
you know, probably another Jordan or two coming along that

(50:16):
are somehow going to win the lottery of the culture.
They're going to step up. Boy, I hope he's in Parisburg
right now. Wouldn't that be a blessing?
Well, you never know, but you know, I, I have, I have

(50:36):
marvelled over a variety of coaches.
We'll get a lot of speed on the Dang on roster and they pretend
like it's not there. I, I don't know if the speed is
deeply flawed somehow. If if I ever had chance to to
really sit down and annoy the shit out of a coach, I would ask

(50:57):
those kinds of questions. That would be a good question
because I think in particular, just looking at this past
combine where you had, you know,your your running back and your,
your wide receiver go out there and you know, put top 340 times
on the board against the best competition in in the country.
And you know, you didn't always see that necessarily come out on

(51:18):
game day. It it would come out and burst,
but I think it wasn't always maximized by the offensive staff
in particular last year to take advantage of some of those speed
elements of those players. I, I will say from my years of
coaching, it takes a while to know what you have, but you, you

(51:40):
got, you can't let that go on. You have got to really.
And I think changing coordinators is a huge thing and
I think I do believe we're goingto see that this season.
You you have people who are actually coming in.
It's one thing to have a first time head coach who's been a

(52:02):
great coordinator, but when you're coming in and your roles
are filled by people who are also learning on the job, that's
very hard to do because, and I'mdealing with that.
We're making a LeBron James documentary and it's with a
Canadian film company and it's it's we've had a lot of fun.

(52:23):
We shot 110 hours of film. But we we've gotten a point in
the road where these guys are really looking at each other a
loss for a loss for what to do. And so that's the course of
human events. I do think surprise, a smart

(52:43):
tough guy. I think his heart's in the right
place. I think he has, you know, all
that he told me all the coaches are talking.
He he says it's a wild, Wild West.
We can't keep doing it like this.
And that's what they've all said.
And, you know, I think you're going to be lucky to hold on to

(53:05):
a coach because it is crazy. I mean, you barely have time to
learn the names, much less evaluate to talent.
Now they're working. They've gotten that.
They've been given more time. They are paying players like
pros, and they are working beyond what the pros are doing
in a lot of regards. And so they got eyeballs on them

(53:29):
more. But what drama?
Let me ask this before we move on.
So you know, we talked about Prythere.
You know, we titled this this episode, right Man, Wrong time.

(53:51):
When we look at Brent Pry and welook at the way and the position
that Virginia Tech's in, we lookat the potential realignment.
We look at NIL in the extra 70 +1,000,000 that Whit Babcock says
he needs. What are the chances that
Virginia Tech gets left out in this next shuffle?

(54:12):
And if they do, is that a death sentence from from a long term
competitive standpoint? Well, I'll tell you this,
they're still jumping. That's item number one.
There's still absolute joy on game day.
They're still jumping. They got to have a little more

(54:32):
to jump about. If they get a little more, I
think they'll jump higher. I really do.
And I think this I said it's themost consequential season in the
history of the program. And I don't think that it if if
I mean, there is no way that that Miami game that was that

(54:54):
was basically the ACC in a shitty they had a school.
No, it is. It was just no, they had a
school that had a chance. They've got to make noise.
They're going to have stature. The ACCS like ESPN, everybody
else, they're in survival mode. And so they had they had to just
abandoned their rules and give the game to Miami because that

(55:17):
was their best bet for the College Football Playoff in that
moment. Now that that didn't but that
that decided that game because there's no way.
And they admitted to him there'sno way Coach Prague, you know,
went back at him a good bit. I think that Virginia Tech is up

(55:44):
against it. Obviously.
I think they've got a batch of players in here.
They got some nice players and the other bottom line here, in
addition to the the things you mentioned, it's a great place.
It's a beautiful place. I I saw Pry.

(56:06):
I saw this video of Pry. He was like a kid with
Metallica. Did y'all see that video?
Oh yeah. You know, he's out here.
He's listening. He'll show up at a Jared Stout
band show. He is he's he's a genuine
spirit. Now that may end up being

(56:27):
tragically wrong. I don't think so, because he is
tough as nails too. And he talks constantly about
hard conversations. So these guys are getting paid.
These are not children anymore. These are pro athletes.
And so they, you know, pro the pro game.
I, I, I enjoyed going to cover in the NBAI didn't like talking

(56:49):
to college athletes. I didn't think it was fair.
They're kids. When I, I worked for the old
Blacksburg Son, I quit my coaching and teaching job to
become a writer and I got hired as a sports editor of Blacksburg
Son. I covered Dooley's first season

(57:10):
and I you'd interview those guysand they're all going yes Sir,
no Sir. And and I, I was 24 at the time.
So but, but the thing I liked about the NBA, if they didn't,
each guy you talked to was a corporation.
If they didn't, if they didn't like and you talk about

(57:32):
testosterone, the NBA was quite a experience and having done it
40 years, they they didn't like your question.
They tell you just to take a long walk.
They I mean, they wouldn't say it like that and, and, and they
were there. They're empowered people.
And so there there's part of this thing that's pretty good.

(57:56):
The opportunity for young peopleis good.
I don't resent somebody changingjobs to get more money.
It it it sort of cracks the egg on the falsehood of, you know,
we're doing it for the old alma mater here.
They're doing it because they'regetting paid.
And guess what? A lot of them need to Jack, They

(58:18):
need to scratch their families. A lot of them really need it.
And but others are loyal to the core.
And I like talking to both parties.
You know, young people are impressive and I think Brent
Pryor and his crew, they've gotten together.

(58:38):
I thought, you know, maybe I'm an old fuddy Duddy.
I don't think so. I, I, I read hearts up there.
I, I think they're pretty good now.
They may quit on y'all against South Carolina.
They may just get waxed. And that will be, that's the
thing. And maybe they won't.
Maybe they'll do some crazy stuff.

(59:02):
Maybe Kyron Drones is going to come out there and stick the
ball in somebody's face mask right off the bat.
I don't know. But the daggone thing is, it's
going to be something. It could be the greatest horror
show, and it could be, you know,I'll tell you a story I like.

(59:26):
Do you have a minute for a Virginia Tech story?
Frankie Allen, you know, he's getting ready for the 8687
season. He's Charlie's assistant.
And they come up with something where they got to fire Charlie
because some kind of recruiting bullshit.
And so everybody in the metro ismaking 400,000 and they pay

(59:50):
Frankie 35 to be the head coach.And Billy Stevens, the hero of
the NIT, gets furious if they hire Frankie over him.
And he quits. And so Virginia Tech says it
doesn't have the money to hire an assistant.
So they find him an intern out of the Midwest.

(01:00:12):
So he's got a Frankie's got to pull them together.
And Frankie's a man of faith. He's, he's a great guy and so he
pulls them all together and they've got to play John
Thompson in Georgetown. They've got to get on a bus and
ride Virginia Tech wanting to pay to fly and they've got to
ride down to Tidewater. John Thompson is recruiting

(01:00:35):
Alonzo Mourning and they, they want to have the Hokies down
there to, to whip up on him in front of Alonso.
And so the Hokies get on this daggone bus and they ride what,
7 hours in a bus down to play John Thompson.
And Frankie calls everybody together before they get on the

(01:00:57):
bus. He says, I want to talk to you
all about John 316. Does anybody know about that?
And Tim, I forget Tim's last name, A guy raised his hand says
John Thompson weighs 316 lbs. The whole locker room just

(01:01:19):
explodes in law. So that becomes their battle
cry. So they're chatting John 316
John, they're going down there and the world doesn't know about
Bimbo Coles. And they get down there and
they're supposed to, you know, be the Washington generals for

(01:01:41):
for John's big recruiting and, and Frankie's got all these John
Thompson stories. But they get down there in tech
beats and they're all chanting as they leave.
And John Thompson's out there cussing reporters saying you
better get that interim name offthat guy.
You got the interim tag off thatguy's name.

(01:02:02):
He's a hell of a coach. And just load up in the bus and
they're coming back up to Blacksburg and it's a long bus
drive and they have the same busdriver, some old cat they give,
they're always on his last. And so they're they're coming in

(01:02:24):
the back up into western Virginia.
And the state trooper pulls themover and they are raising him.
He'll take you to jail. Snuffy or whatever his name was.
He had to get off and talk to the trooper and he said he gets
back on the bus. They're all yelling at him.
He says they're giving us an escort to Blacksburg and they

(01:02:48):
roll into Blacksburg. Castle is swamped with people
going nuts and they've ended up beating George Raveling in USC
in that preseason. Now, here's the thing with this
trumped up thing against CharlieTech has a great basketball
season, but they barter away therights to go to the tournament

(01:03:10):
to get out of sanctions from that very corrupt organization,
the NCAA. Well, one thing we can all be
glad for and Sonny Vaccaro, my my friend, you know, has run a
lifelong campaign against NCAA that that son of a gun is almost
gone because it what up. I had to do a write a magazine

(01:03:36):
story for Lindy when Ohio State won and I I titled it tattoo
this because you know, the NCAA going to come in and burn these
guys over some tattoos today. The cash flying around.
I mean, it's just gone from ridiculous to insane.

(01:03:59):
Well, they've, they created thisproblem.
They, they, they've created the situation doing nothing, sitting
on their on their fists, doing nothing, fighting it tooth and
nail instead of saying this is where it's heading.
Understanding you can't be raking up this much money as an
organization, as these conferences, as these member
schools, and not compensating the players that are going out

(01:04:22):
there and sweating for it, right?
And, and, and not not having thelongevity and the vision to see
that that's where it's going. And then being put in the
situation where you are forced to implement it from a legal
standpoint and still just wash your hands of it like it's not
your problem. The place the the sports were
awash in money back in the day in 1970.

(01:04:46):
As I said, I was a walk on it. VMI Yeah, that season VMI
varsity was one in 10. Now we were a bunch of skinny
ass freshmen going. I weighed 159 lbs playing notes
card and a linebacker. The starting Center for BMI
weighed 220 on the varsity. And I mean by by the third game

(01:05:08):
and VMI was playing a lot of money games.
By the third game, those guys were so beat up UNC with Don
McCauley beating like 62 to three.
You know, they were, they were just getting slaughtered.
And even then those guys on thatteam, and it ended up being the,
the, the head coach and the the captain, the senior tackle

(01:05:33):
gotten a fistfight in practice in front of everybody.
They're about rolling around in the dirt like it's WWE or
something. But even the even the players at
VMI on A1 in 10 team, we're getting $50 handshakes after the
game from the alums and $50.00 that isn't selling much.

(01:05:53):
I unstopped sewers for the town of Whitfield with a $23 take
home pay a week at $1.30 an hourwas the minimum wage then.
So a $50 check was two weeks payfor every game.
They were getting those handshakes and that was VMI.
Which VMI is like ridiculous in terms of observing every kind of

(01:06:18):
rule possible. And so college athletics has
always been full of a lot of money, but handed out in weird
ways. And then no longer, in a weird
way, I want to go back to South Carolina because you telling
that story about Georgetown, yousay we're going to go.
We could go down and get our asses waxed.

(01:06:38):
But that's why they play the games, right?
Because if you had told that crew going up to play Georgetown
in 19, I think it's 88 or 89, you're going to win this king.
People probably laughed at you. No, it's John Thompson.
That's where Ewing play. They got Mourning, then they got

(01:07:00):
Mutombo and all these guys. But that's why they play the
game. So going down to Atlanta, it
won't be on a bus. It's probably going to be on a
nice commercial flight out of Roanoke down to Atlanta.
Yeah, I don't know. They're probably won't even sit
down in the in the big Atlanta airport.
They'll probably go to one of the private ones down there to
make it easy on team. But you play the game.

(01:07:23):
How much tone? Because you said this is one of
those season. It is a crossroads season.
It is a season that is going to define a lot of things for Brent
Pry and for this school. Guys, Karen drones and and he is
back. We are going to get a window

(01:07:43):
into his heart. Now, I'm not talking about
misfortune. He he had a lot of misfortune.
A lot of he played injured last year.
But I am telling you, he showed me at the end of that Miami
game. He stood there, made that play
and I that guy's got heart. He he could have, he could have
ducked out. He he wants to stand here and

(01:08:04):
confront this thing. And if he goes down there and
you don't know right, I agree. And they needed some kind of
chant. Maybe I should have told pry
about John 360. Anyway, it doesn't matter.
But the point is, yeah, I I you know, I would like it is a
family struggle. You know, this is, this is a

(01:08:28):
family struggle. You know your next book.
Oh. If crazy shit, what if crazy
shit happens down there in this season?
No, you know. Back story's there.
This Gordon book is 700 and somepages, my magic book that came

(01:08:54):
out was the cover of the New York Times book is 800.
I, I don't have any I'm, I'm rolling along on.
I'm getting paid to do, I'm sortof an executive producer on
projects that will either be scripted or documentary films.

(01:09:17):
And sometimes I'm getting points, but you know, I don't
have to work too hard and they've got fine writers that
are doing the thing and so I don't need to.
I had fun doing this article. I don't mind doing articles, but

(01:09:41):
you know I've I've had my run atit.
And and this season, I mean, when you look, you talked about
Kyron and I think, you know, we've had Kyron on this show.
We talked to him, we talked to his dad a lot.
I mean, these are these are really great people.
And I think the. Oh, tell me about that.
Yeah, I'm going to hear what you.

(01:10:03):
When when we talked to to Kyron,he is he's very much a quiet
lead by example guy, but he is aguy when he gets in the moment
and he is feeling it and his confidence is is burning.
He's a gamer. And I think that's what I think
a lot of people maybe miss abouthim is that in the moment, with
playing with confidence, I wouldI would take him up against any

(01:10:25):
college quarterback in the NCAA right now.
Brian. There's one game rolling.
I want you to go back and look at Pittsburgh 2023.
He throws a bomb touchdown. He is running down that
sideline, given the finger and given the FU to every single Pit
Panther defender and, and and you're watching and it's like he

(01:10:48):
doesn't care. He's almost challenged him to
come hit me because I'm going tokeep putting it in the end zone
every time. And I think seeing that in
saying what Brian said and we talked with him, he is that soft
guy, but you put him on that field.
There's always talking about andyou've probably Jordan had it,
Magic had it. So many great players have it.

(01:11:09):
It's a switch and when they click that switch get out of the
way. Especially in football.
Exactly. Now basketball is, is, is a
different product. But, but there's a, there's the
tremendous explosion. Jordan's unbelievable.
I, I, I thank my lucky stars forall those seasons.

(01:11:32):
Tex Winter was my best friend and guide to the whole thing.
I couldn't have been luckier. I didn't deserve it.
And you know, the Chicago Tribune needed somebody to do
projects on the team, their bookdivision of all things.
But the point is drones. I saw something.
Everything I've got is that. And I went up there and I saw

(01:11:54):
him stand over on the far sideline and at indoor facility
all by himself. And I said something's not
right. The next day they announced they
were shutting him down. But I got the sense that he had
a lot of they got a lot of new faces, but that he had a lot of
respect on that roster. But somebody on one of these

(01:12:17):
sites slandered the crap out of him.
And so I just wonder, you just never know because some of these
Hokies can get a little weird, But I, I, that's not what I get
out of Kyron drones. I think he is, he's that guy

(01:12:39):
that wants to do it. You know, I also spent a lot of
time with Kobe. People thought he was out of his
mind. I was with Kobe through all the
eight man years and you know, I did 2 books on him.
But Kobe was was sort of like that.
He he was just going to be that guy and he, you know, he's

(01:13:03):
riding that horse for destiny. And Kobe was I thought, man, you
got to worry about him. He's thinking he's going to be
the greatest. He was 1819 year old kid when I
was first hanging out with him. He thinks he's going to be the
greatest all time and he'll lookat you and tell you that I said
Lord and and Karen just sort of the kinds of things you're,

(01:13:27):
you're saying there could be good things happen.
It's not precluded for Virginia Tech.
It's not it's not hopeless. It's just very difficult.
Sure. Well, you brought it up and
let's go ahead and talk a littlebit about it because I don't

(01:13:48):
know if you know, but I am a I'ma Lakers fan here.
So I'd like to hear somebody that's that's, you know, talked
extensively with, you know, wrote the book on Magic, wrote
one on Kobe, had had some conversations there.
What's what's 1 story about Magic and one story about Kobe?
Maybe you want to share with us that that that might be kind of

(01:14:10):
cool to hear. Wow, Co with magic it actually
he was an amazing kid. He was an he just had and you
know, it's a complicated story, but they were had bussing.

(01:14:30):
This is in 7370 and he had an older brother.
He had ten siblings or nine siblings and his older brother
was a hell of a player. And but they, they all got
bussed. They were in a perfectly
racially balanced school, but they, they started bussing in
Lansing, MI, 100 kids a time. And so his brother, the day

(01:14:55):
before Christmas, Magic was still in like 8th grade and he
wouldn't go to high school at 10th grade.
But it's the coaches, first timethey had black players right
before Christmas, they kicked 5 black players off the basketball
team. First all white school, first
time they're there. And I, I spent, I spent 100

(01:15:17):
hours interviewing these two coaches that kicked them off.
And it, it, it's like this really sore subject that it just
ached across the decades. And magic has to go.
The school system says he has togo to that white school now.

(01:15:38):
He sleeps in a bed with his brother, his brother.
When he got cut, all the other four kids took it.
His brother cussed the coaches out.
He would cuss them out in the hall.
Every time he saw him, it was like.
And this boiled over and he and Magic shared a bed.
And Magic went to bed every night listening to his angry

(01:15:59):
brother. And Magic did not want to go to
Lansing play for those coaches. And he lives way down in the
city. They're out in the suburbs.
And it's finally when he has to go.
And it's it's like that summer and he has a bicycle.

(01:16:21):
He's the only kid in his neighborhood has a bicycle.
He never rides because nobody else has a bicycle.
What's he going to do, get on a bicycle?
This old man's an auto work. So he gets on that bicycle and
rides way out in the country. There's a park out there and he
rides by the coach's house. And I'm, I mean, you don't cross

(01:16:48):
those lines in the 70s. And he goes and knocks on the
door and visits with the coach'sdaughter and and the coach
hasn't as a short goal, but but Magic takes it upon himself as a
14, almost 15 year old kid. And he goes back several times,

(01:17:14):
his emotional intelligence and the ability to do it now, all
the stories about everything. I mean, he went from this
incredibly. And he was a powerful kid.
I mean, he took over the school and he would call his own, he

(01:17:35):
would call his own assemblies outside first for things.
And they would just, they didn'tknow what to do with it.
But he was a really good kid. But you know, he got he got
mixed up with Terry Furlough andwhat's going to Terry Furlough
got killed early. He's a brilliant player of

(01:17:56):
Michigan State, but Magic at 1516 got over there with the
college girls at Michigan State,which I mean, just the trial run
for the insane life he lived in LA.
And so his business story, you know, he's a he's a billionaire.

(01:18:17):
He was trying to catch Jordan, but I mean, the business deals
he struck and the things he's done and then to to, you know,
to basically be sex addicted andend up HIV positive.
It's a it was a crazy story. Jordan on the other hand, he

(01:18:44):
just scared everybody to death. The NBA was the damn like I
said, Testosterone City and I spent five seasons with the
Detroit Bad boys. I did their their team books and
their championship stories and for Stylist Publisher.

(01:19:04):
So anyway, I got to my whole thing was watching Jordan and
the bad boys and all the evil shit they did to him.
So it was and and Jordan, I mean, not backing down and he,
you know, he finally got built up and but Jordan scared

(01:19:27):
everybody. Not quite the the bad boy
Pistons, although he scared themtoo.
But Jordan was just I mean, and I had to work hard to to really

(01:19:47):
get that audience with Jordan that I needed all those
one-on-one interviews with him and Tex winner, you know, coach
Jordan longer than anybody. And he would tell me all the
shit that was going on and I would then start to use that.
For example, I was up in Torontoand the locker rooms were packed
the. The PR director, Tim Hallam

(01:20:10):
called it the Pig Fuck. It was packed with, with media
and, and the, the, the proposal for my Jordan book, the little
Brown was called the Pig Fuck. And and it was about being in
that crazy crowd. And we're up in Toronto and
Texas told me some stuff that I need to ask Jordan to just to

(01:20:31):
send a message. And so Pippen comes out of the
locker room 1st and all the media go follow him.
I mean, it's like whoosh. And you, I've gotten where I
could time it here. A minute later, here comes
Jordan. And I know that I'm going to get
a minute and a half, maybe, maybe a minute walking across

(01:20:54):
the locker room one-on-one with him to ask him a question.
And I always tried to ask him where he would stop and cut
those eyes at me. Like, you know, how do you know
that? And so Jordan was a challenge
there. Kobe and Shaq were in a war.

(01:21:14):
And I introduced Tex to Kobe before Tex became a Lakers
assistant coach because Kobe wasa lost, lonely kid.
I really worried for his mental health and the Techs started

(01:21:35):
calling him up. They they, they exchanged phone
numbers. I hooked him up.
And Jerry Crowell said, what in the hell is Tech calling Kobe
Bryant? You know, because the assistant
coach called a player on anotherteam a huge no no.
And then I introduced Kobe to George Mumford before a game in

(01:21:56):
Houston one night. George is the mindfulness guru
who was Phil Jackson's Zen master.
And Kobe considered George. He was very skeptical.
That was Michael skeptical of George, but they both came to
consider him critical. In fact, George was the only

(01:22:18):
thing that Shaq and Kobe really ever agreed on that it was, it
was tense there. It was.
It's crazy when a team has terrible chemistry and you got a
lot of talent and terrible chemistry, immense talent.

(01:22:39):
Immense. Talent.
Terrible. Chemistry and what what these
tech teams sometimes have had and and I will say one thing,
you know, the pandemic that for Fuente and Pry it was, you know,
I don't want to throw off too much from Fuente.

(01:23:00):
I really didn't spend time talking to him or I just he
really pissed me off and he wentdown to Baylor to apply for that
job. I said, you're out of there,
buddy. There's no way you can.
Yeah, him coming back from that was kind of, I know.
It rubbed a lot of people in thefan base the wrong way.
And you know, you call it, you know, a reconnaissance mission

(01:23:23):
to see what other schools are doing or whatever you will.
But I mean, it's still it, it, it, it rubbed people the wrong
way. It sent it sent a wrong message
about where where we were and where we wanted to be and what
his commitment was exactly. And, and I mean that.
Was already at a point where. From a from a closing standpoint
and a recruiting standpoint, he didn't really have the the

(01:23:48):
goodwill of the fan base to burnon something like that.
Yeah, he did not. He never really wanted to
connect, you know, pry is he under?
He got, you know, he was there. He gets it.

(01:24:09):
He, you know, a lot of coaches would really bristle at Frank
Beamer walking around the halls and he worships pride, worships
Frank Beamer. And he really does not want to
disappoint him. And, you know, so much for that.
I ultimately you do have to win games.

(01:24:30):
I just don't see it in the cardsunless they go oh, and 11 or
whatever it is they're playing or three and eight.
I don't see that happening at all unless they have horrific
injuries. I think these coordinators are
given pride. The support he did not have from

(01:24:52):
his coordinators previously. That's my and I think that's
the, I think that's the truth coming out of all this.
I really do. And I think they got it.
They got an offensive offensive coordinator.
He's offensive minded. I mean, the guy knows what he's
doing, He knows what he's looking for.
They had a he's coached A Heisman Trophy winner.

(01:25:15):
So I mean he's. Experiences everything.
And, and, and I, you know, the, the, the defensive coordinator,
they're not bashful. They are not I I think they're
going to be good and The Who knows what the Hokies will do.

(01:25:36):
That's on Chiron a lot and he wants to do it.
I know that. And he he hasn't said I'm
telling you the money and running.
He's that's that's not what he'sabout South in that sense, just
by the Jerry West rule. He, he shows up, he's got I, I

(01:25:59):
read him as having a lot of heart.
I think he he kind of epitomizes.
Just from a personality standpoint, a lot of kind of
what we what we saw a little bitfrom those big runs in the
2000s. He's got, he's got grit and
swagger in equal amounts. And I think you kind of need to

(01:26:21):
have that to be successful at quarterback.
Now you got to, you got to be tough, but you got to have a
little bit of swagger and a little bit of attitude and, and,
and play with the chip on your shoulder.
I you just hear you say that. Makes me think of all the
swagger with those Bulls. I had to do a flashback piece
about that 9596 Bulls team that that went 72 and 10.

(01:26:47):
They they were, it was ridiculous how much swagger they
did. And you know, Phil, I was
thought I had to talk to Phil Jackson and he was saying, you
know, there's no more powerful feeling than walking into a
building, somebody's building. You get off your bus, you walk

(01:27:11):
into the building and you're walking in with Michael Jordan.
You cannot, he says. You cannot imagine that now
where it gets really bad is trying to be around him on the
days between games. He he is.
It just will eat you alive trying to deal with him.

(01:27:34):
But Jordan had a lot of charisma.
The the the big fuck thing was about, you know, he would come
out in these great suits and thethey would glom onto him in that
locker room. And then I mean, you know, post
locker room, all the and the PR directors were going Michael
come to the podium. Don't and he did not want to do

(01:27:58):
it. He wanted the intimacy of all
those damn reporters. And he you know, he had so much
charisma and everybody there, hewas like a spectacle.
I can't believe I'm looking at this guy.
You know, everybody's this is surreal and every minute of it
was borderline surreal. And there are guys like that

(01:28:24):
now. Michael was just a a regular Joe
a lot North Carolina. You you don't know.
It makes you wonder if Michael had that gear if he hadn't
gotten with the dogs. I don't Michael Vick.
I don't know. I don't I don't know.

(01:28:44):
I didn't really spend time observing him, but it's
interesting. It it it is part of the hope for
the Hokies. They just got to they got to
understand this is not business as usual in college, this wild,

(01:29:07):
Wild West. Yeah.
And I think that they've I. Think we're?
Understanding that, I think the changes that have been made, you
mentioned the coordinators a couple times tonight, the
changes in strength and conditioning, the bringing on
with more staff. I think Brent Pride knows it.
And we, we've talked to Brent Pride, we've interviewed him
twice and he does understand theculture.
He understands the importance ofit.

(01:29:28):
And Roland talking with you the last 90 minutes here, it's great
to see how much you understand the importance of it.
And you have been there, Hey, growing up in Withville School
in Lexington, the whole valley. Yeah.
We're going to wrap it up here. Please.
Please. What what I want you to do if?
You're able leave us e-mail. Phone number something because

(01:29:51):
we want you back on here. We don't know when.
Maybe it'll be a good story. If you like enjoying, if you
like to partake in any sort of bourbon or whatever, every year
in December. Drinker from age 13 on.
So yeah. OK, so write this down in
December every. Year we get on here, we call it

(01:30:13):
the state of the program. And we talk about our Hokies.
And it is a night where we we Evan Williams White label, I've
got a big bottle of Black label Johnnie Walker Scotch, and we
lay our feelings. But Roland, we.
Appreciate you having on. Hang with us just a second.
We'll grab your info. We're going to wrap up this

(01:30:33):
episode of the Boundary Corner podcast.
Brought to you by the Main Street Pharmacy in Blacksburg.
Brought to you by Moments on theMoray in Lexington, 2 of
Roland's most favorite places inthe world, I'm assuming along
with the Virginia. I'm Curtis Wilson.
I'm Brian Siegler. Check out Boundary Corner BT.
Dot com listen to all of our. Episodes follow us Facebook,

(01:30:56):
Twitter, Instagram, all the fun places, YouTube as well.
Get us on your favorite podcast source.
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buddy's wife. Check him out Jason Long
music.com and you can link to everything from him there.

(01:31:16):
We appreciate Roland, you do notknow the stories.
We might just be calling you just to get a few stories every
now and then, rolling just for the pure hell of it.
As always, let's go Hokies.