October 22, 2024 • 30 mins
Where can you find a dental clinic that understands the unique needs of an individual who has intellectual or developmental disabilities (I/DD) or behavior health challenges? The Boundless Health dental clinic is prepared to provide patients (and their families) with dental treatments tailored to them in a sensory-friendly environment where they will be given the time needed to feel comfortable. Listen as Shannon Whetsel-Horn shares how the amazing dental care her daughter has received has positively impacted their family. Dr. Ashiyan Rahman, dentist and dental director, and Dominique Horton, dental assistant, both share why they like working with Boundless patients. Boundless is accepting new dental patients so if you are looking for a dental home, please go to iamboundless.org to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Light (00:03):
Welcome everyone to Boundless Abilities
brought to you by Boundless.
Boundless is a nonprofit thatprovides residential support,
autism services, primaryhealthcare, day programs,
counseling, and a whole lot moreto children and adults. Our
mission is to build a world thatrealizes the boundless potential
of all people. I'm your host,Scott light. So October is
National Dental Hygiene Month.
(00:27):
It's very, very important to allof us, but the general public
may not know that people withIDD and sensory issues going to
quote a regular dentist, thatcan be a really tough
experience. As hard as thatoffice may try, their staff may
not be trained to provide thetype of experience that, for
example, people with autism, mayneed. So we have three great
(00:50):
guests to talk about how theBoundless Dental Program is
different. Dr. Ashiyan Rahman isour dental director. Dominique
Horton is a dental assistant,and Shannon Wetzel-Horn is a mom
to Brooklyn Horn, and by theway, Brooklyn is here, but Mom's
going to do most of the talkingduring our podcast recording
today. But Brooklyn has receivedexcellent dental care here at
(01:13):
Boundless. Welcome everyone.
It's good to have you here.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (01:15):
Thank you.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (01:16):
Thank you.
Scott Light (01:16):
So Shannon, would love to begin with you. Your
daughter has been described soBrooklyn, that's you as the
happiest person in the world,and you say she always has a
perma grin on her face. That'sappropriate, because, you know,
we're talking about teeth today.
Tell us about your daughter.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (01:34):
Well, Brooklyn is a 21 year old woman
now. She loves Justin Bieber,Taylor Swift, and she loves
Disney World. She loves to dressup in cocktail dresses, she
loves to wear sweatshirts. Sheloves music. She enjoys every
(01:55):
day. And from that, I'm able tolearn from her to try to enjoy
every day life is tough, but soshe just, she takes, she takes
life as it comes every day. Andso she is now staying home with
me. I am her caretaker. I'm ableto do that. I've been a nurse
(02:16):
for 20 years, but now I'vetransitioned into caring for her
at home and advocating for her,whether that be taking her to
dental appointments, whetherthat be, you know, to the
doctor, going to the zoo. Wehave fun, but we get we take
care of business too.
Scott Light (02:34):
Let me follow up with you on on her care, because
you said before that when youcame to Boundless Dental, it was
like a prayer was answered.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (02:43):
Yes.
Scott Light (02:44):
Talk about that experience, her experience with
dental care before, becausebefore there was a lot of maybe
some some frustration and someconfusion. So give us kind of
the before and the after when itcomes to Boundless Dental.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (02:59):
Definitely.
So starting out pediatric wise,it was pretty seamless, pretty
easy. You know, she's diagnosedwith cerebral palsy, obviously
that never defines her, but itdoes come with its set of
challenges. So we just do thingsa little differently, you know,
we've done, you know, a littlebit of the legwork we've, you
(03:22):
know, gone every six months.
We've been very blessed not tohave some dental, major dental
issues. So we've gone into thechair, we've done some visual
exams. But from the beginning,it's been very, very difficult
to ever get real x-rays. Becauseto get an x-ray, you've got to
(03:45):
put a bite into the mouth, andbefore there was not those,
those, what are they? Dr.
Brahman the I'm losing.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (03:56):
the X rays that go around that
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (03:57):
Yes.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (03:58):
the panorama.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (03:59):
Thank you.
Yes, the panoramic X rays thatthey didn't have them. So I
literally was living on the edgeof wondering what's brewing in
there? Something's brewing. So Ijust had to pray that nothing
was like, gonna pop off to whereI ended up in a situation, and
this is when she's a kid, endedup in a situation where I'm
(04:19):
stuck, like, what do I do? Andso we're very blessed to then
get to a point where, you know,they would go in and they would
visually, we, you know, goingevery six months, finally got
her to, you know, around laterelementary to where she was used
to someone going in and looking.
(04:41):
And I think we've just beenvery, very lucky to come in
contact with a lot of greatproviders that were able to do a
lot of spot checking. And, youknow, I've tried to do my part,
so it's was okay. Now, doctorswere saying, okay. Now listen,
you. This has been going on forquite a while, and I was at the
(05:02):
same place. We're on the samepage at this point. This has
been going to walk. This hasbeen going on. We've got to get
some x-rays. And I'm like,You're speaking my language.
Sign, sign us up. What do we do?
How do we do this? I I've done alittle research, like, do we do
sedation? Um, and of course,that was what was going to
happen, because that cooperationpiece just it wasn't there at
(05:24):
that point. And now she's, youknow, late middle school and
high school. So at that point wehad to, we had to do the
sedation, because people hadtalked along the way about using
a papoose. And Dr. Brahman, I'msure, can explain, Dominique,
explain what a papoose is. Theyhad mentioned using one, but no
(05:48):
one had ever done it. No one hadever suggested it, or, I'm sorry
they suggested it, but no onehad ever done it. No one had
ever, you know, given me theeducation of what it really was.
I'm aware of what a papoose is,because I'm a nurse, and I know
that you use a lot in emergencycare, but I had never been in
this situation with dental careto understand that it is
regularly used, because goodoral care is just as important
(06:11):
as physical care, and it ishealth care. And so I think
that's lost on a lot ofproviders. From that point on,
we hit as what people would callthe service cliff.
Scott Light (06:27):
Right.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (06:28):
And so I think a lot of people know what
that is, but they don't have adefiner to call it a service
cliff. And a service cliff beingyou age out, age out of
accessible care. In accessiblecare, meaning, you're a peds
patientyou know, a minor, beingable to see you know any
(06:50):
pediatric doctor or nonpediatric doctor, sometimes and
all as well, you get the careyou need, whether that be dental
or physical. Unfortunately, theservice cliff is a hard stop
sometimes for people, dependingon what challenges they have,
physically, diagnosis wise. Sothat service Cliff can be, can
(07:14):
look very differently to people.
It can be something that peopleonly, minorly can associate
with, and then it can be it canwreak major havoc in people's
lives, because that servicecliff can cut you off from
accessing, like, the type ofmedical care that your loved one
or who you're giving care to, umthat can cut them off from
(07:38):
accessing the care they need,whether that be dental or that
be, you know, physical.
Scott Light (07:45):
Dr. Rahman and Dominique. Jump in here, because
I'm sure you've heard plenty ofof these very personal stories
before, and I have to believethat when you when you hear a
mom say this, this is why yougot into this type of care.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (08:01):
Definitely, I feel like the service cliff is
very apparent, especially in ourclinic. Whenever we do talk to
patients and their and theirfamilies, like Shannon was
mentioning before, there's lotsof kind of resources for
children, because they're ableto be seen in a variety of
places by variety of providers,and there's just more resources
(08:21):
in general, so you know, orcapabilities and sedation
capabilities. But all of thesechildren do end up growing up,
and then they become adults, andthen that's when we start seeing
kind of that lack of care, lackof resources, lack of access to
healthcare in general. Andthat's something that we even
struggle with now within ourclinic as well when we're trying
(08:42):
to refer or just get patientsthe care that they need. So I
think it's very clear that thisis a major issue, and it's nice
to have advocates like Shannonto kind of bring light to it. To
highlight the need for thesethese services and, and I think
that's what we're trying to dowithin our program as well. You
(09:03):
know, even if we're not able toprovide specific things, at
least get in touch with certainresources that that we know of
to get the care that patientsneed.
Dominique Horton (09:13):
For me, it was kind of blinded. I didn't even
know about this side of theworld, to be honest. I mean, I
literally just started workingwith this population in the
beginning of January with this.
I had a baby, and I was lookingfor, like, a part time job, and
then I didn't even know that.
Like, I mean, after goingthrough the interview and
(09:34):
everything like that, I knew,like they talked about, you
know, this population,everything like that, but I just
didn't know the depths of, like,what they went through, and,
like the healthcare andeverything like that. And as
soon as I started working andeverything like that, I was just
all for it. But like, I wassaying, or like what Shannon was
(09:54):
saying, like, I mean, there'sjust so many like, roadblocks in
terms of, like their care. Andit's just like, it feels good
that, like we even, you know,attempt, or, you know, we really
try to do as much as we can eachappointment, to even get them,
like, some help, you know, and Imean, or trying to find them
(10:15):
sedation, or, you know, it'sjust a really big roadblock
right now for us, was the adultcare.
Scott Light (10:21):
Are you often the first person that patients and
families see when they come in?
Dominique Horton (10:25):
Yep, correct.
Scott Light (10:26):
So you're trying to bring the heart rate down,
Dominique Horton (10:27):
Yes.
Scott Light (10:28):
From the beginning.
How do you do that?
Dominique Horton (10:29):
Correct. So I always go out there, usually
more upbeat, depending on thepatient. I kind of can, you
know, read their vibes and kindof see what type of day they're
having, because we know that'scould either be good or bad. If
it is, I just kind of go fromthere. So if they're willing to
(10:53):
come back in the dental room,then all means will go back in
there. Some of them don't wantto sit in the chair, you know,
and if some are, you know,certainly refusing to even go in
the room, then I'll bring themin our sensory room. And if they
don't want to go in there, Iwould just kind of follow them
where they want to go.
Sometimes.
Scott Light (11:14):
You're like, dental assistant, sociologist,
psychologist, you're like,you're really reading the room
in real time.
Dominique Horton (11:19):
Correct. Some of them want to walk the
hallways. And all means, I willwalk the hallways with them and
try to, you know, just interactwith them, you know. And I mean,
just get to kind of know themand like what works for them,
and things that they do like,things that they don't like.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (11:37):
This is a great example. Please tell him,
this is a great example of whatyou face. What happened when I
walked in? What was my demeanor?
What was my adage? I was very Imean, I think I was very kind. I
was very like desperate.
Dominique Horton (11:55):
Yes.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (11:55):
But what, how did was my effect when I
walked in?
Dominique Horton (11:59):
So Shannon walked in. Brooklyn was very
smiley, as usual. We brought herback. She was willing to get in
the room, and she did sit in thechair. We did not bring up a
papoose at that point, butShannon's first reaction was
like, good luck.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (12:18):
You know, when I remember I said, Yeah,
this isn't gonna happen,
Dominique Horton (12:21):
Correct.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (12:22):
And I just, I mean, I was laughing. I was
like, good luck. This isn'tgonna happen.
Dominique Horton (12:28):
Correct.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (12:28):
Like, and I remember I specifically said,
You're not gonna get very far,but that's okay. I know, I know.
I know what we're walking intoin because I didn't know her and
I didn't know the clinic. Youalso have to be kind of on guard
to protect, you know your lovedone or who you're caring for.
So, you know, I also have toprotect, to make sure, like,
(12:50):
she's not feeling any bad vibeseither. And when I said that, it
was like off the rip, she was soDominique was so kind and so
just warm and bold, that it wasgoing to be okay and supportive
and very calming, because on theinside I was raging, my emotions
(13:12):
were raging, like I need this,but it's not gonna happen. And
so I was convinced, because itthat was the norm, and she would
not take no for an answer. AndI'm so happy that she didn't,
because, you know, the nextsteps ended up being, you know,
(13:36):
them, you know, using alleverything they had in the
toolbox to be able to getBrooklyn to open up, to
cooperate, and they were so kindand so loving and so just, just
the expertise was great. I mean,you can tell between someone
that knows what they're doingand what they don't. We've been
doing this long enough ascaregivers. They were amazing.
(13:58):
And I was like, Okay, I'm at theright place, but we're not going
to get anywhere, right? So, andthat's not what happened. That
is not what happened, becauseBrooklyn could sense that
authenticity in them, and shewas cooperating, and cooperated
a little bit more. But thenagain.
Dominique Horton (14:20):
Yeah.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (14:20):
The hard stop. Like, okay, you saw my
mouth, but you're not getting init. And then that's when the
papoose conversation came up,which I've had. It was very
fleeting conversations in thepast, like papoose, and then
it's gone. They brought shebrought up the papoose. And I
was like, oh, yeah, okay, greatat papoose, next. Are we done?
(14:43):
Like, pretty much, you know, so,but that is not how it happened.
They they took the next stepsto, you know, have me sign the
consent, and they explained tome what would happen. And
they're very, very they educatedme about it. What they would do,
what Brooklyn's part would be,what my part would be, just kind
(15:05):
of observing, if, if I needed tobe a, you know, supportive to
Brooklyn, I could do that.
Obviously I would. And so it wasamazing. And they got her in the
papoose. She cooperated. Thisclinic was different. It was
such an amazing experience. Ifelt it. Brooklyn felt it, and
that's why she, she cooperatedmore than she ever has. I'll be
(15:28):
honest with you, in any clinic.
Scott Light (15:32):
Overall how is the Boundless clinic different from
say, I don't want to say aregular clinic, but you know
what I mean, a regular dentalpractice. How's it different
here?
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (15:41):
I feel like one of the main goals with the
dental clinic in particular ismeeting individuals where
they're at. So you'll you'll seeespecially a lot of our
individuals have had a lot ofpast dental trauma and things
like that, and they come in toan area that's very sensory
heavy as well. So everyone comesin at different levels. So being
(16:02):
able to recognize that andrespect that is very important,
and so once we do that, we'realso able to kind of tap into
other resources within Boundlessas well. So like, for example,
like behavioral health. So wehave a behavior specialist on
our team, Timothy Hafer, andhe's able to kind of work with
(16:23):
individuals on skill building sothat individuals can kind of
continue to come into thatdental environment so it's not
as scary when they do come infor their appointments, while
also building on skills thatthat they need to develop in
order to have a successful,successful appointment. And
then, in addition to that, theclinical team also had a really
(16:43):
great immersive training at NYUas well, and that was such an
amazing experience for us. And Ireally feel that Dominique and
our dental hygienist, EbonyWilliams, they embraced
everything that we learned thereso beautifully. They truly are
rock stars in not only makingthe patients feel comfortable,
but also providing good qualitycare.
Scott Light (17:05):
Did you have an experience, whether it was with
family, friends, something earlyin life, or maybe when you
started, whether it was dentalschool, or maybe a combination
of both, where you thought,okay, this is where I want to
put my career. This is where Iwant to put my personal
passions, my professionalpassions, in this type of
(17:25):
specialty, dental care, Dr.
Rahman
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (17:28):
I do think about that. And I feel like,
especially after being atBoundless I you know, when you
kind of look back on your lifeand you're like.
Scott Light (17:35):
Sure, sure.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (17:35):
Oh, I feel like maybe this was just a
combination of everything that'skind of happened in the past. I
come from a pretty humblebackground, and I saw how
difficult it was to find the theright resources or the right
practices or right programs toto get basic healthcare. So I
saw how high need individualsare often underserved due to the
(17:58):
lack of access to healthcare,and how easy it is for that
cycle to just continue. So whenI when I became a dentist, I saw
that in in dental school aswell, and so I kind of wanted to
contribute in whatever way Icould to at least disrupt that
cycle a little bit. And then, inaddition to that, later on in
life, my brother-in-law, he'sautistic, and he was kind of my
(18:21):
introduction into that world,kind of more on a personal
level, and I saw how difficultit was for family to find dental
care specifically. So that's whyI'm so passionate about the
dental program in Boundless ingeneral, because I feel like the
organization as a wholegenuinely cares and works really
hard about in order to kind ofprovide, you know, quality and
dignified care to individualswho are often overlooked or just
(18:45):
don't have the access to carethat you know some of us might
just kind of take for granted.
Scott Light (18:51):
Dominique, you told us similarly, you told us a
little bit about your backstoryand how you came to Boundless.
You could go anywhere as adental assistant, that is a job
that is very much in demand.
What keeps you here?
Dominique Horton (19:05):
So again, like I said, I just kind of like
stumbled upon it. Again, I neverhad a clue about this side of
you know, like the populationand everything like that. And
yes, dental assistants are invery much a need. But I'll say,
like your regular dental office,it's like, like, since working
(19:30):
at Boundless like, I'll never goback like, in terms of like your
regular
Scott Light (19:34):
Really?
Dominique Horton (19:35):
Yes, I'll be completely honest. I've only
been a dental assistant forabout three years now, not too
long. It doesn't seem like, butlike it's so different from your
regular dentist's office. Yourregular dentist office is so
fast paced, you're very tired,and there's just such a, it's
(20:00):
just such a change in terms of,like, you know, the people you
know, the environment andworking at Boundless has been
again, just like I'll never goback to your regular dentist
office. I just, it's just, itreally is night and day, you
(20:21):
know. And I still, like, in thebeginning, because, like, we
were part time, like, you can goand work, like a temp job or
anything, and when I go there,and then when I come at
Boundless, I'm just, like,Boundless is like a fresh breath
of air and then, like, atanother office, you know, you're
just so, like, it's just so,like, fast paced, and I just,
it's just a differentenvironment, you know? And I
(20:42):
mean, like the people that arearound and the patients too.
It's very, I don't know theexact word to describe it, but
it's, it's very, night and day.
Scott Light (20:54):
I get the sense that you're really appreciated
here.
Dominique Horton (20:57):
Yeah.
Scott Light (20:58):
On all sides.
Dominique Horton (20:59):
Yes. Correct the patients, my coworkers, and
just in general, and like, I'venever gotten like opportunities
that, like I have here, likeanywhere.
Scott Light (21:11):
As I look around our studio here, and I think
about we're in season four ofthe podcast, and we've had a lot
of parents come through ourstudio over the years to talk
about that services cliff,because it is real, especially
in our mainstream healthcaresystem. And we're certainly
going to keep talking about it.
We've got to, got to take amegaphone to to those issues.
But as I look around the tableat all three of you, we have
(21:33):
three medical professionalshere, because we have have a 20
year nurse here as well. How dowe to all three of you, how do
we keep making our voices louderabout those specialized services
that are needed out there?
Obviously, we're talking dental,but again, it's, it's broader in
the in the broader healthcaresystem for people with IDD. Mom,
(21:56):
Shannon, how do we how do wemake our voices louder?
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (21:59):
I'm going to take this somewhere serious.
We need legislation. I mean, weneed to talk to lawmakers,
because there is a major gap.
There's a large, very largecommunity of people that are not
being addressed when it comes tooral care, but also physical
care in some aspects too. Butthe oral care piece, the dental
piece, is really significant.
(22:24):
It's really significant. I mean,they're not to get into it, but,
you know, people an oralinfection, it can be very life
threatening. And so that issomething that can come about if
you've got a loved one thatcan't tell you they're in pain,
(22:45):
or that can come about if you'vegot a loved one that is sitting
waiting to, you know, see adoctor or to be able to get into
that operating room to have thataddressed. There's people that,
you know, they have to giveantibiotics before they go into
addressed infection, you know,and had things happen in the
(23:08):
meantime, because it's out ofcontrol. Bad things can happen
from dental care. I mean, it'sserious, and people know that,
and, and that's the elephant inthe room that people don't want
to talk about, because it'sscary. It's serious and there's
life threatening consequences,and so that's that piece in the
back of our mind as caregiverslike this has real consequences.
(23:31):
This isn't just, you know, I amgoing to show up or my loved
ones going to show up to theirday program, or to, you know,
the zoo, or to wherever, andtheir teeth may look dingy
because they weren't polished,or they haven't been to the
dentist in a while. It's, it'sa, it's a major health fear,
(23:54):
concern, and it needs to beaddressed like yesterday. So I
feel, you know, I feel thatneeds, somebody needs to pick
that up and carry that to thatissue, to people that can do
something about it. Maybe that'sme. I don't know. I've done a
(24:15):
lot of thinking about this. Thisis, this is serious, and whether
anybody would do anything aboutit, I don't know, but somebody's
got to try.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (24:26):
I feel like continuing to do what we're
doing right now, having theseconversations frequently, and I
completely agree with Shannon interms of kind of, like the
legislation aspect as well, kindof sharing these experiences and
what we see, whether it be froma healthcare perspective, or
from a loved one's perspective,or even from a individual's
perspective, is reallyimportant, because what we
(24:47):
learned is that a lot of people,unless they're personally
impacted by it, don't reallyknow that this is a need, or
there is a need for certainservices, or there's a lack
anywhere in this in general. Sokind of highlighting that and
spotlighting that is reallyimportant. And kind of having
that data to back it up is alsoimportant as well, so that we
(25:08):
can kind of quantify, like, hey,these are the reasons why, and
this is what we've seen inpractice. So kind of having
those conversations, gatheringthose stories and that data to
be able to back up what we'resaying in order to make change
within you know, hopefullylegislation so that it is
something that is recognized,you know, and and fought for and
(25:31):
advocated for in an appropriatemanner.
Scott Light (25:33):
Well, and to Shannon's point, you know, when
people go in for their six monthcheckup, whether it's you know,
to for teeth cleaning,polishing, but you're also
checking for oral cancer whilethose patients are in there.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (25:44):
Exactly.
Yeah, and I feel like a lot oftimes people don't realize that
either, because, you know, whenyou go to the dentist, you
already have one foot out thedoor. Nobody wants to be there.
So there are a lot of otherthings that we're doing while
we're, you know, kind ofchecking out the teeth. So it's
not only the teeth. So we'relooking for for oral cancer, and
especially in our patientpopulation as well, because
individuals are generallymedically complex. You know,
(26:05):
there's lots of medications andthings that they take and that
can impact your oral health aswell. And your oral health is
kind of the gateway to the restof your body, so that really it
all connects and it makes adifference. It's important to
not separate it as much, andkind of work together and kind
of move that forward.
Scott Light (26:25):
And for anyone listening who may need these
specialized services that we'retalking about of Boundless
Dental, Dr. Rahman, where canpeople find out more?
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (26:32):
So you can find out more at
iamboundless.org. You can alsofeel free to call in to
Boundless, and they'll get yourouted to the dental department.
And we're super excited becausewe're going to be opening our
clinic up five days a week soon,so we're accepting all new
patients. And are just superexcited to kind of be expanding
(26:53):
the program in general.
Scott Light (26:54):
And Shannon, as we start to wrap it up here, what
is your message to others outthere who need these services,
other parents or anyonelistening, who may think, you
know what, I need a place to go.
Well, they have it here atBoundless.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (27:10):
They do.
And everybody needs a place togo. Because, like Dr. Rahman
said, oral care is wonderfulcare and holistic care. It
addresses you from head to toe,inside to out. So I implore
anyone listening, if you have aloved one that you cannot find
(27:30):
oral care for you feel thatyou're not going to get anywhere
as I felt, which I was provenvery wrong. My daughter was able
to her needs were addressedbeautifully. Or if you like, I
said, if you can't get in, oryou don't even know where to
start, if you are just nowpicking up, you know, the
(27:53):
responsibility of caring forsomeone that you've never cared
for. If you're a serviceprovider in you need a resource
to tell you know your your yourclients, where they can turn to
I confidently can can say thisis the office where you should
at least start. And then ifthere's additional needs, you
(28:17):
know that they need to refer outfor additional, more invasive
care, then they'll do that. Butstart here. Start here for that
cleaning. Start here for thatjust check up, even if it's a
visual, just start here. This.
It was such an amazingexperience for me, but for
(28:41):
Brooklyn, it was, that's what,that's what was important,
right? It was an amazingexperience for her. She is
healthy. Dr Rahman didn't seeanything crazy, and that's why
I'm saying, like, start here,start here, and then if addition
is needed, additional care isneeded, outside of the office,
they set us up. They set us up.
We're on our way. Like it wasseamless. That's why I feel
comfortable telling people,start here,
Scott Light (29:05):
100% start here, and Brooklyn smiling this
morning, which is great, yep.
Dominique Horton (29:10):
Showing off her pearly whites.
Scott Light (29:12):
Yep that's right.
Thank you all for being here.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (29:14):
Thank you so much.
Scott Light (29:15):
Great conversation to our listeners. Thank you as
well. Don't forget you can bepart of episodes to come, you
can always email us yourquestions or comments at
podcast@iamboundless.org. Thisis Boundless Abilities brought
to you by Boundless.
Welcome everyone to Boundless Abilities
brought to you by Boundless.
Boundless is a nonprofit thatprovides residential support,
autism services, primaryhealthcare, day programs,
counseling, and a whole lot moreto children and adults. Our
mission is to build a world thatrealizes the boundless potential
of all people. I'm your host,Scott light. So October is
National Dental Hygiene Month.
(00:27):
It's very, very important to allof us, but the general public
may not know that people withIDD and sensory issues going to
quote a regular dentist, thatcan be a really tough
experience. As hard as thatoffice may try, their staff may
not be trained to provide thetype of experience that, for
example, people with autism, mayneed. So we have three great
(00:50):
guests to talk about how theBoundless Dental Program is
different. Dr. Ashiyan Rahman isour dental director. Dominique
Horton is a dental assistant,and Shannon Wetzel-Horn is a mom
to Brooklyn Horn, and by theway, Brooklyn is here, but Mom's
going to do most of the talkingduring our podcast recording
today. But Brooklyn has receivedexcellent dental care here at
(01:13):
Boundless. Welcome everyone.
It's good to have you here.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (01:15):
Thank you.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (01:16):
Thank you.
Scott Light (01:16):
So Shannon, would love to begin with you. Your
daughter has been described soBrooklyn, that's you as the
happiest person in the world,and you say she always has a
perma grin on her face. That'sappropriate, because, you know,
we're talking about teeth today.
Tell us about your daughter.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (01:34):
Well, Brooklyn is a 21 year old woman
now. She loves Justin Bieber,Taylor Swift, and she loves
Disney World. She loves to dressup in cocktail dresses, she
loves to wear sweatshirts. Sheloves music. She enjoys every
(01:55):
day. And from that, I'm able tolearn from her to try to enjoy
every day life is tough, but soshe just, she takes, she takes
life as it comes every day. Andso she is now staying home with
me. I am her caretaker. I'm ableto do that. I've been a nurse
(02:16):
for 20 years, but now I'vetransitioned into caring for her
at home and advocating for her,whether that be taking her to
dental appointments, whetherthat be, you know, to the
doctor, going to the zoo. Wehave fun, but we get we take
care of business too.
Scott Light (02:34):
Let me follow up with you on on her care, because
you said before that when youcame to Boundless Dental, it was
like a prayer was answered.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (02:43):
Yes.
Scott Light (02:44):
Talk about that experience, her experience with
dental care before, becausebefore there was a lot of maybe
some some frustration and someconfusion. So give us kind of
the before and the after when itcomes to Boundless Dental.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (02:59):
Definitely.
So starting out pediatric wise,it was pretty seamless, pretty
easy. You know, she's diagnosedwith cerebral palsy, obviously
that never defines her, but itdoes come with its set of
challenges. So we just do thingsa little differently, you know,
we've done, you know, a littlebit of the legwork we've, you
(03:22):
know, gone every six months.
We've been very blessed not tohave some dental, major dental
issues. So we've gone into thechair, we've done some visual
exams. But from the beginning,it's been very, very difficult
to ever get real x-rays. Becauseto get an x-ray, you've got to
(03:45):
put a bite into the mouth, andbefore there was not those,
those, what are they? Dr.
Brahman the I'm losing.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (03:56):
the X rays that go around that
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (03:57):
Yes.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (03:58):
the panorama.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (03:59):
Thank you.
Yes, the panoramic X rays thatthey didn't have them. So I
literally was living on the edgeof wondering what's brewing in
there? Something's brewing. So Ijust had to pray that nothing
was like, gonna pop off to whereI ended up in a situation, and
this is when she's a kid, endedup in a situation where I'm
(04:19):
stuck, like, what do I do? Andso we're very blessed to then
get to a point where, you know,they would go in and they would
visually, we, you know, goingevery six months, finally got
her to, you know, around laterelementary to where she was used
to someone going in and looking.
(04:41):
And I think we've just beenvery, very lucky to come in
contact with a lot of greatproviders that were able to do a
lot of spot checking. And, youknow, I've tried to do my part,
so it's was okay. Now, doctorswere saying, okay. Now listen,
you. This has been going on forquite a while, and I was at the
(05:02):
same place. We're on the samepage at this point. This has
been going to walk. This hasbeen going on. We've got to get
some x-rays. And I'm like,You're speaking my language.
Sign, sign us up. What do we do?
How do we do this? I I've done alittle research, like, do we do
sedation? Um, and of course,that was what was going to
happen, because that cooperationpiece just it wasn't there at
(05:24):
that point. And now she's, youknow, late middle school and
high school. So at that point wehad to, we had to do the
sedation, because people hadtalked along the way about using
a papoose. And Dr. Brahman, I'msure, can explain, Dominique,
explain what a papoose is. Theyhad mentioned using one, but no
(05:48):
one had ever done it. No one hadever suggested it, or, I'm sorry
they suggested it, but no onehad ever done it. No one had
ever, you know, given me theeducation of what it really was.
I'm aware of what a papoose is,because I'm a nurse, and I know
that you use a lot in emergencycare, but I had never been in
this situation with dental careto understand that it is
regularly used, because goodoral care is just as important
(06:11):
as physical care, and it ishealth care. And so I think
that's lost on a lot ofproviders. From that point on,
we hit as what people would callthe service cliff.
Scott Light (06:27):
Right.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (06:28):
And so I think a lot of people know what
that is, but they don't have adefiner to call it a service
cliff. And a service cliff beingyou age out, age out of
accessible care. In accessiblecare, meaning, you're a peds
patientyou know, a minor, beingable to see you know any
(06:50):
pediatric doctor or nonpediatric doctor, sometimes and
all as well, you get the careyou need, whether that be dental
or physical. Unfortunately, theservice cliff is a hard stop
sometimes for people, dependingon what challenges they have,
physically, diagnosis wise. Sothat service Cliff can be, can
(07:14):
look very differently to people.
It can be something that peopleonly, minorly can associate
with, and then it can be it canwreak major havoc in people's
lives, because that servicecliff can cut you off from
accessing, like, the type ofmedical care that your loved one
or who you're giving care to, umthat can cut them off from
(07:38):
accessing the care they need,whether that be dental or that
be, you know, physical.
Scott Light (07:45):
Dr. Rahman and Dominique. Jump in here, because
I'm sure you've heard plenty ofof these very personal stories
before, and I have to believethat when you when you hear a
mom say this, this is why yougot into this type of care.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (08:01):
Definitely, I feel like the service cliff is
very apparent, especially in ourclinic. Whenever we do talk to
patients and their and theirfamilies, like Shannon was
mentioning before, there's lotsof kind of resources for
children, because they're ableto be seen in a variety of
places by variety of providers,and there's just more resources
(08:21):
in general, so you know, orcapabilities and sedation
capabilities. But all of thesechildren do end up growing up,
and then they become adults, andthen that's when we start seeing
kind of that lack of care, lackof resources, lack of access to
healthcare in general. Andthat's something that we even
struggle with now within ourclinic as well when we're trying
(08:42):
to refer or just get patientsthe care that they need. So I
think it's very clear that thisis a major issue, and it's nice
to have advocates like Shannonto kind of bring light to it. To
highlight the need for thesethese services and, and I think
that's what we're trying to dowithin our program as well. You
(09:03):
know, even if we're not able toprovide specific things, at
least get in touch with certainresources that that we know of
to get the care that patientsneed.
Dominique Horton (09:13):
For me, it was kind of blinded. I didn't even
know about this side of theworld, to be honest. I mean, I
literally just started workingwith this population in the
beginning of January with this.
I had a baby, and I was lookingfor, like, a part time job, and
then I didn't even know that.
Like, I mean, after goingthrough the interview and
(09:34):
everything like that, I knew,like they talked about, you
know, this population,everything like that, but I just
didn't know the depths of, like,what they went through, and,
like the healthcare andeverything like that. And as
soon as I started working andeverything like that, I was just
all for it. But like, I wassaying, or like what Shannon was
(09:54):
saying, like, I mean, there'sjust so many like, roadblocks in
terms of, like their care. Andit's just like, it feels good
that, like we even, you know,attempt, or, you know, we really
try to do as much as we can eachappointment, to even get them,
like, some help, you know, and Imean, or trying to find them
(10:15):
sedation, or, you know, it'sjust a really big roadblock
right now for us, was the adultcare.
Scott Light (10:21):
Are you often the first person that patients and
families see when they come in?
Dominique Horton (10:25):
Yep, correct.
Scott Light (10:26):
So you're trying to bring the heart rate down,
Dominique Horton (10:27):
Yes.
Scott Light (10:28):
From the beginning.
How do you do that?
Dominique Horton (10:29):
Correct. So I always go out there, usually
more upbeat, depending on thepatient. I kind of can, you
know, read their vibes and kindof see what type of day they're
having, because we know that'scould either be good or bad. If
it is, I just kind of go fromthere. So if they're willing to
(10:53):
come back in the dental room,then all means will go back in
there. Some of them don't wantto sit in the chair, you know,
and if some are, you know,certainly refusing to even go in
the room, then I'll bring themin our sensory room. And if they
don't want to go in there, Iwould just kind of follow them
where they want to go.
Sometimes.
Scott Light (11:14):
You're like, dental assistant, sociologist,
psychologist, you're like,you're really reading the room
in real time.
Dominique Horton (11:19):
Correct. Some of them want to walk the
hallways. And all means, I willwalk the hallways with them and
try to, you know, just interactwith them, you know. And I mean,
just get to kind of know themand like what works for them,
and things that they do like,things that they don't like.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (11:37):
This is a great example. Please tell him,
this is a great example of whatyou face. What happened when I
walked in? What was my demeanor?
What was my adage? I was very Imean, I think I was very kind. I
was very like desperate.
Dominique Horton (11:55):
Yes.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (11:55):
But what, how did was my effect when I
walked in?
Dominique Horton (11:59):
So Shannon walked in. Brooklyn was very
smiley, as usual. We brought herback. She was willing to get in
the room, and she did sit in thechair. We did not bring up a
papoose at that point, butShannon's first reaction was
like, good luck.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (12:18):
You know, when I remember I said, Yeah,
this isn't gonna happen,
Dominique Horton (12:21):
Correct.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (12:22):
And I just, I mean, I was laughing. I was
like, good luck. This isn'tgonna happen.
Dominique Horton (12:28):
Correct.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (12:28):
Like, and I remember I specifically said,
You're not gonna get very far,but that's okay. I know, I know.
I know what we're walking intoin because I didn't know her and
I didn't know the clinic. Youalso have to be kind of on guard
to protect, you know your lovedone or who you're caring for.
So, you know, I also have toprotect, to make sure, like,
(12:50):
she's not feeling any bad vibeseither. And when I said that, it
was like off the rip, she was soDominique was so kind and so
just warm and bold, that it wasgoing to be okay and supportive
and very calming, because on theinside I was raging, my emotions
(13:12):
were raging, like I need this,but it's not gonna happen. And
so I was convinced, because itthat was the norm, and she would
not take no for an answer. AndI'm so happy that she didn't,
because, you know, the nextsteps ended up being, you know,
(13:36):
them, you know, using alleverything they had in the
toolbox to be able to getBrooklyn to open up, to
cooperate, and they were so kindand so loving and so just, just
the expertise was great. I mean,you can tell between someone
that knows what they're doingand what they don't. We've been
doing this long enough ascaregivers. They were amazing.
(13:58):
And I was like, Okay, I'm at theright place, but we're not going
to get anywhere, right? So, andthat's not what happened. That
is not what happened, becauseBrooklyn could sense that
authenticity in them, and shewas cooperating, and cooperated
a little bit more. But thenagain.
Dominique Horton (14:20):
Yeah.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (14:20):
The hard stop. Like, okay, you saw my
mouth, but you're not getting init. And then that's when the
papoose conversation came up,which I've had. It was very
fleeting conversations in thepast, like papoose, and then
it's gone. They brought shebrought up the papoose. And I
was like, oh, yeah, okay, greatat papoose, next. Are we done?
(14:43):
Like, pretty much, you know, so,but that is not how it happened.
They they took the next stepsto, you know, have me sign the
consent, and they explained tome what would happen. And
they're very, very they educatedme about it. What they would do,
what Brooklyn's part would be,what my part would be, just kind
(15:05):
of observing, if, if I needed tobe a, you know, supportive to
Brooklyn, I could do that.
Obviously I would. And so it wasamazing. And they got her in the
papoose. She cooperated. Thisclinic was different. It was
such an amazing experience. Ifelt it. Brooklyn felt it, and
that's why she, she cooperatedmore than she ever has. I'll be
(15:28):
honest with you, in any clinic.
Scott Light (15:32):
Overall how is the Boundless clinic different from
say, I don't want to say aregular clinic, but you know
what I mean, a regular dentalpractice. How's it different
here?
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (15:41):
I feel like one of the main goals with the
dental clinic in particular ismeeting individuals where
they're at. So you'll you'll seeespecially a lot of our
individuals have had a lot ofpast dental trauma and things
like that, and they come in toan area that's very sensory
heavy as well. So everyone comesin at different levels. So being
(16:02):
able to recognize that andrespect that is very important,
and so once we do that, we'realso able to kind of tap into
other resources within Boundlessas well. So like, for example,
like behavioral health. So wehave a behavior specialist on
our team, Timothy Hafer, andhe's able to kind of work with
(16:23):
individuals on skill building sothat individuals can kind of
continue to come into thatdental environment so it's not
as scary when they do come infor their appointments, while
also building on skills thatthat they need to develop in
order to have a successful,successful appointment. And
then, in addition to that, theclinical team also had a really
(16:43):
great immersive training at NYUas well, and that was such an
amazing experience for us. And Ireally feel that Dominique and
our dental hygienist, EbonyWilliams, they embraced
everything that we learned thereso beautifully. They truly are
rock stars in not only makingthe patients feel comfortable,
but also providing good qualitycare.
Scott Light (17:05):
Did you have an experience, whether it was with
family, friends, something earlyin life, or maybe when you
started, whether it was dentalschool, or maybe a combination
of both, where you thought,okay, this is where I want to
put my career. This is where Iwant to put my personal
passions, my professionalpassions, in this type of
(17:25):
specialty, dental care, Dr.
Rahman
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (17:28):
I do think about that. And I feel like,
especially after being atBoundless I you know, when you
kind of look back on your lifeand you're like.
Scott Light (17:35):
Sure, sure.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (17:35):
Oh, I feel like maybe this was just a
combination of everything that'skind of happened in the past. I
come from a pretty humblebackground, and I saw how
difficult it was to find the theright resources or the right
practices or right programs toto get basic healthcare. So I
saw how high need individualsare often underserved due to the
(17:58):
lack of access to healthcare,and how easy it is for that
cycle to just continue. So whenI when I became a dentist, I saw
that in in dental school aswell, and so I kind of wanted to
contribute in whatever way Icould to at least disrupt that
cycle a little bit. And then, inaddition to that, later on in
life, my brother-in-law, he'sautistic, and he was kind of my
(18:21):
introduction into that world,kind of more on a personal
level, and I saw how difficultit was for family to find dental
care specifically. So that's whyI'm so passionate about the
dental program in Boundless ingeneral, because I feel like the
organization as a wholegenuinely cares and works really
hard about in order to kind ofprovide, you know, quality and
dignified care to individualswho are often overlooked or just
(18:45):
don't have the access to carethat you know some of us might
just kind of take for granted.
Scott Light (18:51):
Dominique, you told us similarly, you told us a
little bit about your backstoryand how you came to Boundless.
You could go anywhere as adental assistant, that is a job
that is very much in demand.
What keeps you here?
Dominique Horton (19:05):
So again, like I said, I just kind of like
stumbled upon it. Again, I neverhad a clue about this side of
you know, like the populationand everything like that. And
yes, dental assistants are invery much a need. But I'll say,
like your regular dental office,it's like, like, since working
(19:30):
at Boundless like, I'll never goback like, in terms of like your
regular
Scott Light (19:34):
Really?
Dominique Horton (19:35):
Yes, I'll be completely honest. I've only
been a dental assistant forabout three years now, not too
long. It doesn't seem like, butlike it's so different from your
regular dentist's office. Yourregular dentist office is so
fast paced, you're very tired,and there's just such a, it's
(20:00):
just such a change in terms of,like, you know, the people you
know, the environment andworking at Boundless has been
again, just like I'll never goback to your regular dentist
office. I just, it's just, itreally is night and day, you
(20:21):
know. And I still, like, in thebeginning, because, like, we
were part time, like, you can goand work, like a temp job or
anything, and when I go there,and then when I come at
Boundless, I'm just, like,Boundless is like a fresh breath
of air and then, like, atanother office, you know, you're
just so, like, it's just so,like, fast paced, and I just,
it's just a differentenvironment, you know? And I
(20:42):
mean, like the people that arearound and the patients too.
It's very, I don't know theexact word to describe it, but
it's, it's very, night and day.
Scott Light (20:54):
I get the sense that you're really appreciated
here.
Dominique Horton (20:57):
Yeah.
Scott Light (20:58):
On all sides.
Dominique Horton (20:59):
Yes. Correct the patients, my coworkers, and
just in general, and like, I'venever gotten like opportunities
that, like I have here, likeanywhere.
Scott Light (21:11):
As I look around our studio here, and I think
about we're in season four ofthe podcast, and we've had a lot
of parents come through ourstudio over the years to talk
about that services cliff,because it is real, especially
in our mainstream healthcaresystem. And we're certainly
going to keep talking about it.
We've got to, got to take amegaphone to to those issues.
But as I look around the tableat all three of you, we have
(21:33):
three medical professionalshere, because we have have a 20
year nurse here as well. How dowe to all three of you, how do
we keep making our voices louderabout those specialized services
that are needed out there?
Obviously, we're talking dental,but again, it's, it's broader in
the in the broader healthcaresystem for people with IDD. Mom,
(21:56):
Shannon, how do we how do wemake our voices louder?
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (21:59):
I'm going to take this somewhere serious.
We need legislation. I mean, weneed to talk to lawmakers,
because there is a major gap.
There's a large, very largecommunity of people that are not
being addressed when it comes tooral care, but also physical
care in some aspects too. Butthe oral care piece, the dental
piece, is really significant.
(22:24):
It's really significant. I mean,they're not to get into it, but,
you know, people an oralinfection, it can be very life
threatening. And so that issomething that can come about if
you've got a loved one thatcan't tell you they're in pain,
(22:45):
or that can come about if you'vegot a loved one that is sitting
waiting to, you know, see adoctor or to be able to get into
that operating room to have thataddressed. There's people that,
you know, they have to giveantibiotics before they go into
addressed infection, you know,and had things happen in the
(23:08):
meantime, because it's out ofcontrol. Bad things can happen
from dental care. I mean, it'sserious, and people know that,
and, and that's the elephant inthe room that people don't want
to talk about, because it'sscary. It's serious and there's
life threatening consequences,and so that's that piece in the
back of our mind as caregiverslike this has real consequences.
(23:31):
This isn't just, you know, I amgoing to show up or my loved
ones going to show up to theirday program, or to, you know,
the zoo, or to wherever, andtheir teeth may look dingy
because they weren't polished,or they haven't been to the
dentist in a while. It's, it'sa, it's a major health fear,
(23:54):
concern, and it needs to beaddressed like yesterday. So I
feel, you know, I feel thatneeds, somebody needs to pick
that up and carry that to thatissue, to people that can do
something about it. Maybe that'sme. I don't know. I've done a
(24:15):
lot of thinking about this. Thisis, this is serious, and whether
anybody would do anything aboutit, I don't know, but somebody's
got to try.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (24:26):
I feel like continuing to do what we're
doing right now, having theseconversations frequently, and I
completely agree with Shannon interms of kind of, like the
legislation aspect as well, kindof sharing these experiences and
what we see, whether it be froma healthcare perspective, or
from a loved one's perspective,or even from a individual's
perspective, is reallyimportant, because what we
(24:47):
learned is that a lot of people,unless they're personally
impacted by it, don't reallyknow that this is a need, or
there is a need for certainservices, or there's a lack
anywhere in this in general. Sokind of highlighting that and
spotlighting that is reallyimportant. And kind of having
that data to back it up is alsoimportant as well, so that we
(25:08):
can kind of quantify, like, hey,these are the reasons why, and
this is what we've seen inpractice. So kind of having
those conversations, gatheringthose stories and that data to
be able to back up what we'resaying in order to make change
within you know, hopefullylegislation so that it is
something that is recognized,you know, and and fought for and
(25:31):
advocated for in an appropriatemanner.
Scott Light (25:33):
Well, and to Shannon's point, you know, when
people go in for their six monthcheckup, whether it's you know,
to for teeth cleaning,polishing, but you're also
checking for oral cancer whilethose patients are in there.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (25:44):
Exactly.
Yeah, and I feel like a lot oftimes people don't realize that
either, because, you know, whenyou go to the dentist, you
already have one foot out thedoor. Nobody wants to be there.
So there are a lot of otherthings that we're doing while
we're, you know, kind ofchecking out the teeth. So it's
not only the teeth. So we'relooking for for oral cancer, and
especially in our patientpopulation as well, because
individuals are generallymedically complex. You know,
(26:05):
there's lots of medications andthings that they take and that
can impact your oral health aswell. And your oral health is
kind of the gateway to the restof your body, so that really it
all connects and it makes adifference. It's important to
not separate it as much, andkind of work together and kind
of move that forward.
Scott Light (26:25):
And for anyone listening who may need these
specialized services that we'retalking about of Boundless
Dental, Dr. Rahman, where canpeople find out more?
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (26:32):
So you can find out more at
iamboundless.org. You can alsofeel free to call in to
Boundless, and they'll get yourouted to the dental department.
And we're super excited becausewe're going to be opening our
clinic up five days a week soon,so we're accepting all new
patients. And are just superexcited to kind of be expanding
(26:53):
the program in general.
Scott Light (26:54):
And Shannon, as we start to wrap it up here, what
is your message to others outthere who need these services,
other parents or anyonelistening, who may think, you
know what, I need a place to go.
Well, they have it here atBoundless.
Shannon Wetzel-Horn (27:10):
They do.
And everybody needs a place togo. Because, like Dr. Rahman
said, oral care is wonderfulcare and holistic care. It
addresses you from head to toe,inside to out. So I implore
anyone listening, if you have aloved one that you cannot find
(27:30):
oral care for you feel thatyou're not going to get anywhere
as I felt, which I was provenvery wrong. My daughter was able
to her needs were addressedbeautifully. Or if you like, I
said, if you can't get in, oryou don't even know where to
start, if you are just nowpicking up, you know, the
(27:53):
responsibility of caring forsomeone that you've never cared
for. If you're a serviceprovider in you need a resource
to tell you know your your yourclients, where they can turn to
I confidently can can say thisis the office where you should
at least start. And then ifthere's additional needs, you
(28:17):
know that they need to refer outfor additional, more invasive
care, then they'll do that. Butstart here. Start here for that
cleaning. Start here for thatjust check up, even if it's a
visual, just start here. This.
It was such an amazingexperience for me, but for
(28:41):
Brooklyn, it was, that's what,that's what was important,
right? It was an amazingexperience for her. She is
healthy. Dr Rahman didn't seeanything crazy, and that's why
I'm saying, like, start here,start here, and then if addition
is needed, additional care isneeded, outside of the office,
they set us up. They set us up.
We're on our way. Like it wasseamless. That's why I feel
comfortable telling people,start here,
Scott Light (29:05):
100% start here, and Brooklyn smiling this
morning, which is great, yep.
Dominique Horton (29:10):
Showing off her pearly whites.
Scott Light (29:12):
Yep that's right.
Thank you all for being here.
Dr. Ashiyan Rahman (29:14):
Thank you so much.
Scott Light (29:15):
Great conversation to our listeners. Thank you as
well. Don't forget you can bepart of episodes to come, you
can always email us yourquestions or comments at
podcast@iamboundless.org. Thisis Boundless Abilities brought
to you by Boundless.
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