December 18, 2023 • 45 mins
Hear from two mothers who both lost a loved one during the holidays last year and what lessons they learned and are willing to share with others. Karen Cousins, program director, NAMI Franklin County and Dr. Jill Crane, psychology post-doctoral fellow, Boundless, join host Scott Light for some heartfelt suggestions on not caving to expectations and celebrating in a way that works for you.
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Episode Transcript
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Scott Light (00:03):
We're going to start off with a question for
this episode. What is your bestadvice on coping with grief
during the holidays? Joe, wouldyou start us off?
Jill Crane (00:11):
Just remember that your grief isn't right or wrong.
It's human.
Scott Light (00:16):
Love that Karen.
Karen Cousins (00:18):
Take care of yourself.
Scott Light (00:19):
That is our topic this month, folks. And boy is
this timely Welcome to WellBeing a podcast brought to you
by boundless. Boundless is anonprofit that provides
residential support, autismservices, primary health care
day programs, counseling, and awhole lot more to children and
adults. Our mission is to builda world that realizes the
(00:39):
boundless potential of allpeople. I'm your host, Scott
light. So you heard the voicesof our guests. Let me officially
introduce you to them. KarenCousins is Program Director with
Nami, Franklin County. And Dr.
Jill Crane is a psychologypostdoctoral fellow here at
Boundless. Welcome to you both.
Jill Crane (00:57):
Thank you,
Scott Light (00:58):
Karen, let me come back and ask you to expound on
our kind of rapid fire that westarted with there in the
beginning, you said, taking careof yourself during the holidays
here, expand on that a littlebit, if you would.
Karen Cousins (01:11):
Holidays can be stressful, whether you're in the
middle of grief or not, because,you know, it's the family's
coming. It's the perfect dinner,it's the perfect gift. And, you
know, the house has to be clean,and all of that. But when you're
going through grief, it changeseverything. And so you have to
(01:35):
take care of yourself. Becauseif you've had Christmas dinner
for the last 15 years, and youcook and you, you know, the
decorations, it's okay to say Ican't do it this year, it's
perfectly fine. Or let's do apotluck. You need a plan A, a
plan B, and all the way down thealphabet if necessary.
Scott Light (01:58):
I'm so glad you mentioned. Well, food in the
beginning, I stress over theturkey. Why am I stressing over
a bird? I mean, I want it totaste good. Don't get me wrong.
But you know what I mean? I
Karen Cousins (02:11):
I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, yeah, we
had a goose one Thanksgiving.
And it was horrible. And so we,my husband, and I each took a
bite and threw it in the trash.
So we just had sides. And thatwas fine. And there was no
grief. And while the grief wasthat we didn't have a meal. But
(02:34):
yeah, it's all about doing whatyou need to do to get through
the day, the week, the month,whatever it is.
Scott Light (02:41):
And let's face it, the sides are really good. Yes,
they are around the holidays.
Joe, let me come back to youranswer off the top, you said,
Remember that grief isn't rightor wrong, that it's human.
Jill Crane (02:53):
So the holidays, especially are a time when we
all have expectations of howHow's dinner going to be? Well,
I think this is how it shouldbe. How's gift giving gonna be?
Well, this is how it should bethis is how it's always been. Or
this is how ideally it would be.
And so we have a lot of shouldsthat we place on ourself, even
without grief as part of thepicture for for the holidays.
(03:16):
And then grief comes in and itcomplicates things. Because it's
something that there isn'treally a should about how you
should be feeling or how youshould be reacting to certain
things. And there are somemoments during the holidays that
you might expect to be sad,where you're not sad. And there
(03:37):
are some times when it's acompletely neutral situation,
and it might sweep you off yourfeet. And I think it's important
to remember that, like, in othertimes in the holidays, it's true
to that neither reaction iswrong. It's not wrong to be sad,
it's not wrong to be feeling theholiday spirit. It's not wrong
(04:00):
to have trouble functioning,it's not wrong to be doing just
fine and powering through. It'sall human. It's a human
experience.
Scott Light (04:13):
I also want to start on a personal note with
both of you because this is thisis going to be a powerful
episode for our listeners. Inmany ways. Both of you do
incredible work. And both of youhave also experienced the
unimaginable and that is theloss of a child. Karen Would you
share what you feel comfortablesharing about that loss for you?
Karen Cousins (04:37):
My daughter died a year ago this past
Thanksgiving. And she had severeand persistent mental illness.
For the last 25 years, she wouldshe died about a month before
her 52nd birthday. And you knowmy parents passed away I've had
(05:00):
friends die. And I can onlyspeak for because grief is
different for everyone. And Ican only speak about my
experience, but this is the mostdifficult thing I've ever
experienced in my life.
And it's the most difficultthing I've experienced in my
(05:31):
life, and I have I have memoriesof her before she was ill. And
after she was ill, I thought shehad postpartum depression. And
so I thought, well, you know, aswhat I do, why, let's look some
things up. Let's get acounselor, let's do this, let's
(05:52):
do that. And her behavior reallyspiraled out of control. And,
and if you've never seen mentalillness up close and personal,
you don't recognize it as such,especially if someone's between
18 and 25. Ish. You think it'ssomething else. And once I
realized what was going on, Ifound NAMI. I don't remember how
(06:16):
I found it. But I saved my life,and took classes. All of our
services are free, andvolunteered for a while. And
then I moved to Columbus andstarted working for NAMI. And
she, not only her diagnosis wasschizoaffective disorder, and
(06:39):
she also suffered fromanosognosia, which means she
didn't have the insight to knowthat she was ill. So therefore,
if, you know, if I don't thinkI'm ill, why would I take
medication. So whenever she wasin the hospital, or in jail for
doing something, I would get ona plane, I'd fly to Los Angeles,
(07:01):
and try to get her the help thatshe did not want. Sometimes that
worked. And other times itdidn't. So when a year ago
Thanksgiving, I got a call fromher dad. And she had been
unmedicated and homeless in LosAngeles for about the last five
years. And I would sometimesjust go out to LA and drive
(07:25):
around looking for her. I wasthrilled when she would land up
in, it sounds awful, but I wasthrilled when she was either in
jail, or the hospital. Becauseshe had a roof over her head.
She wasn't on the street, lessdanger. And so I got the call,
(07:45):
and someone had given hersomething with fentanyl in it.
And and it's interesting aboutgrief, because the first two
weeks after she died, I cleanedmy house every day. And I mean,
I was up for like 22 hours oneday. And I think it was not
(08:08):
wanting to feel I've gone to Ithink every bereavement group
that OhioHealth offers. And whatI've learned up to this point is
that it's okay to handle thisthe way I need to handle it.
Sometimes I was in the storejust earlier today, and my
(08:33):
husband called me and he said Ican't find the the lint thing
that goes in the dryer. I said,Well, why are you calling me?
And he said, Well, I said I'msure I put it back. Where would
I put it? And then I thought,oh, did I have one of those
brain things where, you know, Isaid, Well look in the
(08:55):
refrigerator, I don't know whereit is. But he found it and I had
left it somewhere. I've drivenplaces and you know, taken the
wrong exit it just comes andgoes and or I'll be in the
grocery store and I'll see acereal she liked when she was 10
(09:18):
and I'll tear up and it's allokay, I've in a year I've come
to understand that. And in oneof the groups someone said to
me, you'll never be the same.
And I thought that had notoccurred to me. But it's true.
And it's yeah, she was she wasmy daughter.
Scott Light (09:43):
Whats your daughter's name?
Karen Cousins (09:44):
Angela.
Scott Light (09:46):
What is this time of your like for you?
Karen Cousins (09:51):
It's just filled with I have a I have another
daughter who's coming. She livesin Los Angeles. She's an artist
and she's coming to visit forChristmas. So, in fact, she was
she was coming every two months.
I said, Do you think I'm gonnadie? Is that why you keep
getting on a plane coming? Andshe said, well, well, her sister
died. And then her dad diedthree weeks later. So she's had
(10:14):
a lot on her. And I think so I'mfamily now, you know, it's just
me. So it's just hard. Andsometimes you are, you're in the
middle of something that's justvery ordinary. And it will, a
(10:34):
memory will just hit you, andI'll tear up. You know, it might
be 15 seconds. And then I go,okay. All right. And I continue
on. It is hard. It is, it's veryhard.
Scott Light (10:53):
Well, maybe your daughter heard the story that
there's a dryer vent in yourrefrigerator, just wants to come
home. And that's okay. That'sokay. That's okay, too. Jill,
your daughter, Gianna was bornand passed away at eight days
old. And this was also last yearlast December? What can you
(11:16):
share about your loss? So
Jill Crane (11:20):
Karen and I both experienced the loss of a child,
but it's very differentcircumstances, for sure. But
when I was listening to you, Iheard some similarities, too.
I'm not, you're not the onlyperson who's teared up at the
grocery store for seemingly, youknow, a really benign reason. So
this year, when I was doing somegrocery shopping, I pushed my
(11:44):
cart past some of thoseChristmas gift piles. And they
had one of those little rotaryphones, the little Fisher Price
rotary phones. And it juststruck me that, you know,
Gianna, would have been oldenough. And, you know,
motorically skilled enough topull the little dial and watch
(12:07):
the numbers go around and pickup the phone. And we could have
played together with that atthis point. And that is one of
those unusual kind of unexpectedmoments where you find yourself
tearing up or you find yourselfstruck, like I said earlier
swept off your feet by somethingthat other people wouldn't
(12:29):
necessarily think would wouldcause that reaction. But to
answer the first part of yourquestion, in 2022, I became
pregnant with my first child, wehad a very typical, non
(12:50):
concerning pregnancy. And it allwent wrong in the last 20 to 30
minutes of delivery. In fact,there was a shift change right
before she was born. And thenurse who was shifting with
another nurse kind of made thatokay sign and was like, Oh,
(13:12):
we're great. Everything's goingfine. And so when all of a
sudden our heart tones weregoing down, and there was a
whole lot more people in theroom than I thought was probably
normal. We just kind of gotthrown headlong into this event
(13:37):
and this new way of life. Sowhen my daughter was born, she
had an Apgar score of one whichmeans that her heart was
beating. And they went and tookher and warmed her up and put
her on a CPAP. And I I heard hermake a little noise. And I was,
(14:01):
like, elated from where I wasbecause they were working on me.
And for a good period of time,we didn't really know what was
going to happen. So everyonetalks about that golden hour
after you deliver a baby whereyou hold them and you feed them
and you get to bond right away.
And I didn't see her again untilfive or six hours later when she
(14:27):
was being transported toNationwide Children's. And we
went to see her the next day,and she was responding, moving.
She smiled when she heard mecooing at her. And we got the
news that she had experiencedsomething called hypoxic
(14:56):
ischemic encephalopathy. HIV forshort. And it happens in one to
three in 1000 births. A numberof the folks that I've worked
with over the years as a personwho provides psychological
assessment and works withchildren with developmental
(15:18):
disabilities, that's where theirjourneys started. And that put
me in a very unique position asthe person in the family who has
seen children come out of thisand has seen these children go
on to live married verymeaningful, beautiful lives. So
when ever someone would come inand say, Oh, we did a scan, and
(15:42):
here's our result. I alwaystranslated it back to, oh, I
know a kid. I know a personwho's been through this, and let
me tell you, life is differentfor them. But it is beautiful
for them. I love working withthis person. And so that was
where I was for the first threeor four days. And then around
(16:08):
the fifth or sixth day, we gotthe news that she wouldn't be
stable enough to receive some ofthe treatments that would, that
would have a chance at savingher. And the weight that puts on
you as a person is kind ofunlike anything I've ever
(16:33):
experienced. So my husband and Iare Catholic. And one of the one
of the nice elements of theCatholic faith is that when a
baptized baby passes away, thethe idea or the recognition is
that they are a saint in heaven,because they were you can't be
(16:55):
any can't be any more perfectthan you are then. And so it's
been helpful and comforting tolean on my faith and to imagine
her as I believe she is, whichis safe and happy. And looking
over me and my husband, Jim,taking care of us in a way that
(17:21):
we had hoped we would have beenable to take care of her. Our
experience for the holidays is alittle different. We haven't put
up a tree, we are probably goingto spend time with my husband's
family like we did last year.
And we are kind of taking it dayby day doing what we feel like
(17:46):
so we have a little ornamentthat has her picture on it
that's out even if it's not on atree. And we have a little
lantern that says your lightshines in our hearts forever,
something like that. And we arejust trying to take it day by
day.
Scott Light (18:07):
Well, you're both just so strong to share this
with our listeners. And it is soappreciated. Again, let me ask
you both how your thisexperience these personal
experiences with theserespective losses, how has that
(18:30):
then translated to the importantwork that you do? Karen, with
with the work that you do atNami?
Karen Cousins (18:38):
Something that I wanted to add. My daughter had a
son and he's now 26. And helives in Northern California.
And when he was little, I triedto explain to him about his mom.
And because she wasn't likeother moms. And I said, Well,
(18:59):
your mom is sick. And I said butit's not like the cold or the
flu. I said it makes her say anddo odd, very odd things. And he
was so angry that she wasn'tlike other moms. He just didn't
understand. And when he was ateenager, I said, you know, I
(19:20):
said we can always talk. I saidbut you're old enough, you can
look up what schizoaffectivedisorder is and to get a better
understanding. And he reallydidn't want to. And he came to
visit on he's still in schooland came to visit me from
Northern California on hisspring break. And I had found a
(19:43):
journal that Angela had writtenwhen he was about three years
old and where she wanted him togrow up to be, you know, a good
man and all of this and so Isaid this is really yours. And I
gave it to him. And I said youdon't have to read it now. But
he did read it and, and he saidthat really helped. That helped
(20:06):
me a lot. And he said, I want tothank you, he calls me Grammy, I
want to thank you Grammy forteaching me all these years to
be kind. And it just, I almostfell down the stairs, I was just
blown away. He's turned out tobe a really nice young man. And
(20:26):
he finally got it. He said, Youknow, when I'm on bark on the
transportation system up there,and I see people taunting people
with mental illness or treating.
He said that was that was howthey treated my mom. And he
finally got it, you know, but henever knew her well, so he only
knew her. But your question. Imainly work with families that
(20:47):
are the caregivers of someonewho has a has a loved one with a
mental health condition. Andthere are other people in the
organization who work withpeers. But the thing that I try
to get across to families whotake our classes, and I'm
facilitate support groups, isthat this is an illness. This is
(21:08):
not bad behavior. This is notteenaged angst, or, you know,
something that, you know, it'sit's an illness, it just happens
to affect your brain. You know,if you have heart disease, it's
your heart, if you have youknow, lung cancer, it's your
lungs. And that's reallydifficult for parents, spouses,
(21:30):
siblings, whoever it may be. to,to, to, to really get on a
cellular level. Because I thinkthe stigma of mental illness is
so great. I've had I had aparent tell me once I'd rather
have my son have cancer than thementally ill. That's how, how
(21:53):
the wall is up. And once you seeit in their eyes, that they
finally get it, then they canbecome an advocate, you know,
and try and help. But you know,and I didn't make this up, but,
but having loving someone with amental illness, you know, it's a
(22:14):
marathon, it is not a sprint,and there may be great times,
and, and periods for someone'sdoing really well. And then
medication stops working. And,you know, they circle back maybe
to where they were. There arepeople who, who have the insight
and take medication and go tocounseling, and live good lives,
(22:40):
you know, but it's a broadspectrum. And I get great joy
when people finally understandthat, okay, this is what I'm
dealing with, how can I help myson daughter has been whoever,
(23:00):
and then they start workingtowards that.
Scott Light (23:06):
Jill, I saw you nodding your head when when
Karen was talking about whereshe gets joy when when kind of
that light bulb moment ormoments happen.
Jill Crane (23:16):
And it's something that I experienced in my work as
well. So when I do psychologicalassessment, or developmental
assessment, I really find it themost rewarding when a child
seems to have a betterunderstanding of themselves. But
also when parents have thatlightbulb moment where they
(23:40):
realize that my kid is not justacting up, I am not just a bad
parent. And there are treatmentsavailable or approaching life
with this different perspectivemight actually turn some of
these problems on their head andmake them opportunities to grow.
(24:03):
One of the things that I do intherapy and testing is a lot of
psycho education. And one of thethings that really is a
highlight of my job is providingthose light bulb moments to
people. Another thing that kindof struck me about what Karen
(24:27):
said is that having been to asimilar place yourself, you're
in a better position to teachthem those things. I was a
clinician before I had Giannaand my understanding my empathy,
(24:47):
my ability to integrate pasttrauma for parents and for kids
into how I'm working with themhas grown exponentially in the
past year, I, I attended the AAAIDD, so the American Association
on Intellectual andDevelopmental Disabilities
(25:09):
Conference this past year. AndI'm the co chair of this
psychology interest network. Andwhen I was speaking, they're
part of what I did is my talkwas I did a career dedication.
So I dedicated the rest of mycareer to my daughter. I am not
(25:31):
lying when I say that I feelthat Gianna has been a blessing
not just to my life, but to mywork. And she is strengthened my
resolve to really understandpeople and to help people
understand themselves and theirchildren. One of the things I
(25:55):
mentioned at the conference was,I want people to walk away from
knowing me and from working withme. I want them to walk away
with the confidence that lifemight be different, but it can
still be good. In the same waythat when I was in that hospital
room trying to explain to myparents and my husband, even if
(26:17):
she can't talk, did you see thatsmile? Even if she needs a G
Tube, I know kids with G tubes,and they still have a great day,
maybe they don't eat lunch likethe other kids do. But they
still have a good day. Maybethey have trouble communicating.
But I have seen some realwhizzes with their communication
(26:38):
devices. And they'll tell youthis, that and the other thing
about their day and what theywant and what they need.
Scott Light (26:45):
We've had them on the podcast, yes, we had them
sharing through theircommunications devices on on
these very episodes. So
Jill Crane (26:54):
I find that when I'm in the position to provide that
education, and to increase thatunderstanding that the future
can be good. I feel reallyinspired by my daughter to do
that.
Scott Light (27:06):
It is interesting.
And to our listeners, I just saytrust me on this, and that I'm
sitting, you know, two and ahalf feet away from from Karen
and Jill here, but I can just itis palpable, for me, sitting
across from both of you of justhow impassioned both of you are
about your work if I can justfeel it.
Karen Cousins (27:27):
Well you know, it gave me patience, because we had
a family to family class, whichis for caregivers, and it helps
family members learn how tocommunicate with their loved
one, how to take care ofthemselves. medications or
illnesses. So one class eachweek, and there was a couple in
(27:53):
the class, and it's eight weeksand the seventh week. The wife
said I well, I can't say anexpletive about how she didn't
believe any of this was going towork and and they didn't come
back for the eighth class. And Ithought she's not ready. She's
(28:15):
not ready to really grab hold ofthis. She's still pushing away
that there's nothing wrong withhim. He's, he's going to be
okay. And so, sometimes I'llreach out to families that are
little. Yeah, you guys do goodwork, but it's not it's not for
(28:35):
us, you know, and I'll invitethem, you know, we're having a
family seminar. This weekend,maybe you'd like to come or, you
know, and, and eventually,people do come back and they get
it. And that. That makes mesmile. makes me smile.
Scott Light (28:55):
You're both again, respective experts in your
fields in multiple fields. I dida lot of reading too. And I
wanted to properly prep and getyour reactions to a couple of
things. One counselor even wrotegrief, especially at these
moments of the year can bringfor some people in expressively
sad moments, and for others,they can be full of holiday
(29:17):
cheer. And Gillette, you touchedon this a few minutes ago. All
of those feelings are valid.
Give them all space and giveyourself permission to feel
without judgment. Anothercounselor wrote that grief is
often very physical. And and wetalk about self care a lot on
(29:38):
these episodes that that mindbody connection, it is proven
unequivocally to be so, soimportant. What is your best
advice? Right now because stresslevels are so high and they're
even higher for somebody who maybe going through a grieving
process. What's your best advicefor self care right now?
Jill Crane (30:00):
Hmm, a lot of people out there, and I know I was one
of those people at the beginningapproached, events approached,
even just the day to day withthis idea that I have to grieve,
I have to make progress in someway. And at the beginning of the
day, I wouldn't even know whatthat meant. But I knew that, in
(30:22):
my mind, there was some idea ofwhat grieving well was. And by
the end of the day, I would havea sense of whether I did that or
not. And that is a really,really hard way to look at
yourself throughout the year.
But especially during theholidays, when, like you said,
there are additional stressors,there are additional
expectations. One of the thingsthat we talk about in the
(30:44):
psychological world, we talkabout behavioral activation,
this idea that you go out andyou do things, even if you're
not feeling like doing them toimprove your mood. I want to say
that there's room for that. ButI think that there needs to be
much more room for Grievers torest, and to relax, and to lean
into this idea that the holidaysdon't have to be this explosive,
(31:09):
exciting festivit time of year,there's so much room for low key
events for using that cozy imageof the holidays to your
advantage. Because getting outand doing things can be
exhausting. And outside of thedepression, research, there's
(31:31):
grief, which is its own kind ofbeast, and has a lot more
specific things tied into itthat we can't just solve by
getting up going out going tothe potluck anyway, going to the
Christmas concert, andparticipating exactly as you
used to, you want to be aware ofthose feelings, and you want to
(31:55):
accept those feelings and letthem move through you. So
there's moments where you mightexpect to be sad, and you won't
be and you may feel likequestioning that. But just know
that it's human to sometimes beable to get through a certain
(32:16):
event that you thought youwouldn't be able to. And you
might end up in the grocerystore tearing up over a fisher
price for rotary phone or a boxof cereal. And there's nothing
wrong with that either. Thatdoesn't mean that you're
slipping in your grief,progress, whatever that means.
It doesn't mean that you are outof commission for the rest of
(32:41):
the day, the week, the month.
It's your experience, and it'svalid. And it is human to be
reminded and caught up infeelings surrounding those
reminders.
Karen Cousins (32:55):
Self care is something I write about, I do an
article in our newsletter everymonth. And the December article
is generally about families. Andas well, as well as peers, but
it's if you're traveling withyour loved one, let's say out of
(33:17):
state or even locally, thinkabout things that will make the
experience good for both of you.
You need to make sure that youhave enough medic, if you're
going away for a week or aweekend, you need to have enough
medication. Have all theimportant phone numbers of
doctors, psychiatrists,pharmacies handy so that you if
(33:37):
something does come up, you canaddress it. And alcohol, alcohol
and prescription medicationdoesn't usually go very well
together. So I remind peopleabout that. And then again, also
about the expectations that it'sokay if one family member said
(34:01):
Well, last Christmas, we invitedour daughter who has a mental
health condition to the familydinner 20 people and she
exhibited all kinds of strangebehavior and she ruined it for
everyone. And so we were notgoing to invite her this year.
And I said, Well, that's onething you could do. But I said
(34:23):
maybe you could talk to herbeforehand. And inviter and, and
the bottom line is I deal with alot of reality. The bottom line
is it'll it will go fine. Or itwon't. I mean, it's got to be
one or the other. And if you'renot willing to risk that, maybe
(34:46):
you take her out for a specialluncheon with, you know, her
cousin, her sister her whoever.
That's Plan B And each familyhas to have I think I mentioned
earlier, plan A and plan B andPlan C. But, you know, remember
(35:09):
your humanity, yes, this personmay have bipolar disorder, but
they're a human being. And theywant to be loved, just like
everybody else in the family, sofigure out a way that you can
include them. And sometimes youcan't depending on what's going
on with them, but make theeffort.
Scott Light (35:31):
You know we were also talking about, you hit on
the traditions of this time ofthe year, you said you don't
have a tree up right now. Theholidays, of course, full of
traditions, those can be toughfor people who are grieving a
loss, I read about two thingsfrom again, a couple of experts
(35:53):
who said, it can be importantfor some people to honor
traditions and honor memoriesduring this time of the year.
But, or maybe not. But But andor, you can also create new
traditions, maybe setting aplace for that special one that
you've lost, still setting aplace for them at the table, or
(36:14):
lighting a candle for themsaying a prayer for them, all
kinds of things. Karen, what doyou think about that? What is
your mind go? Maybe evenpersonally, for you, but also
professionally when it comes toholiday traditions?
Karen Cousins (36:28):
Personally, it's it's never really been about
gifts. For me, personally, Ihave a tree in the living room,
I have one downstairs in thefamily room, there's just
something about tree lights, andjazz on the on my CDs, that
makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
And I love that. And that's whatI do for me for right now. I
(36:53):
have pictures of Angela aroundthe house. And I had asked a
counselor, I started seeing acounselor, right after she died.
And I said well, maybe maybe Ishouldn't. I said maybe maybe
it's too much, you know? And shesaid, No, no, it's okay. You
know, and, and maybe you'll takemaybe in a year, you'll have one
(37:17):
picture on a mantel, you won'thave one on your office desk and
in your bedroom and, you know,all over. But I think people
have to do what is comfortable.
I was just in a Christmasbereavement group last week. And
(37:38):
one lady said her father haddied. And she said, I carry a
picture of my dad. I mean, whenI was like 10 years old. And she
said, if I go hiking, it's in mybackpack, if it was at
Thanksgiving wasn't at thetable, but it was on a piece of
furniture right by it. And shesaid it's in my purse right now,
(38:00):
she said may sound crazy toeveryone else. She said, but it
makes me feel good. So I thinkpeople are doing different
things. And it's not right orwrong. You know, it's what
you're what you're comfortablewith.
Jill Crane (38:15):
And I think that's part of self care you releasing
yourself from I should do thisor other people will expect me
to do that. I might be expectingmyself to be able to do a
certain thing or to do somethingjust right, like I did last year
or the way I would have done itif my loved one was still here.
(38:38):
And the self care response tothat is, is it something you
really want to do? Or is itsomething you feel like you have
to do to make grief progress orto continue this sense of
normalcy? Because Christmaslights and jazz music feels good
(38:58):
to you and having pictures ofyour daughter feels good to you.
And for me, I have my my phonebackground is her handprints and
that feels right to me. Andhaving her picture in my office
feels right to me. And somepeople might say Oh, is that
(39:21):
okay for work? Yeah, it's okayfor work for me. So, approaching
the holidays, but any time ofyear with Is it right or wrong?
Well, is it right for me isprobably the better question to
ask.
Scott Light (39:39):
As we start to wrap up our conversation here let's
also certainly include talkingabout getting help from a
professional grief can sometimestrigger or exacerbate mental
health conditions like anxiety,post traumatic stress. Sometimes
strong feelings of sadness makeit difficult to Tell if you're
(40:00):
experiencing grief versusdepression, or both.
Additionally, many people alsoexperience challenges to their
mental health during the colderdarker months of the winter
seasons, which we know all alltoo well here in the Midwest.
And Joe, why don't you start usoff here, professional, like
(40:21):
yourself, can certainly help tonavigate all of this.
Jill Crane (40:26):
And one of the things that is really
beneficial, I would say, even ifyou cannot work with an
individual therapist, or there'sa long waitlist for a counselor
in your area, one of the mosthelpful things that I've
encountered over the course ofthis year is grief support
groups. And especially supportgroups that are particular to
(40:50):
your specific loss. So, forexample, it was not too long
after Gianna passed that I'vefound an organization called
hope for HIE, and its parentswho have lost their children in
their parent loss group. Andthey run zoom meetings where
(41:11):
maybe no one in my immediatearea has experienced what I've
experienced, but I can talk tosomeone in Canada and I can talk
to someone in the next stateover who has met with this very
particular sort of grief. Andthere's something so validating
about expressing the things thatyou feel alone in the ways your
(41:35):
grief is manifesting itself andhaving someone else say, Me too.
Karen Cousins (41:40):
In that same vein, I found a group for
parents who've lost adultchildren. So I understand that
completely in that everybody inthe room was on Zoom, but
everybody in the room has hadthat same experience. And so
they get it like maybe somebecause I've been in other
(42:01):
groups where it was just youknow, spouses or siblings or
whatever. But the group forparents of adult children who
have passed away, was the mostmeaningful one for me.
Jill Crane (42:14):
If I could just something, please, just one
thing, because I know that thisis about managing your own grief
during the holidays, butespecially during the holidays,
but also be around, I'veencountered people who want to
support me or other people whoare grieving, and aren't really
(42:35):
sure how to do that. They don'twant to step on your toes, they
don't want to remind you ofsomething that's making that's
they don't want to remind youhave something traumatic, they
don't want to ruin your goodmood. And something that I'd
like to share is that you arenot reminding them of their lost
(42:57):
loved one because we are prettyconstantly aware of our reality.
It has been so meaningful for meto have people say g on his
name, or include her inChristmas cards, or even just
mentioning that I'm thinkingabout you this week. And some
(43:19):
people may not have that samereaction. Some people may still
be in a place where they don'twant to talk about what happened
or answer specific questions. Icertainly would probably advise
against asking about nittygritty elements of the grief as
opposed to just my thoughts arewith you. But I think it's
really important to to just bewarm towards that person. Maybe
(43:44):
you don't even talk about theperson they're grieving, but you
approach them with that warmth.
And you're just kind of therebearing witness to what they're
experiencing.
Scott Light (43:57):
No matter what, most of the time. It's hard to
go wrong with warmth andhumanity. Right for the most
part that can usually get usthrough right. Thank you both
for coming in sharing yourpersonal perspectives and your
professional perspective aswell. This has been a powerful
(44:19):
episode.
Karen Cousins (44:20):
Thank you for inviting us
Scott Light (44:21):
I certainly wish you and your families a happy
healthy and safe holiday seasonwe wish that to all of our
listeners as well as we wrap upseason three of well being here
in 2023 Don't worry we arealready planning season four
right now. And again to ourlisteners you can be part of
(44:41):
episodes to come you can emailus your questions and comments
anytime at podcast atIamboundless.org This is the
Well-Being podcast brought toyou by Boundless.
We're going to start off with a question for
this episode. What is your bestadvice on coping with grief
during the holidays? Joe, wouldyou start us off?
Jill Crane (00:11):
Just remember that your grief isn't right or wrong.
It's human.
Scott Light (00:16):
Love that Karen.
Karen Cousins (00:18):
Take care of yourself.
Scott Light (00:19):
That is our topic this month, folks. And boy is
this timely Welcome to WellBeing a podcast brought to you
by boundless. Boundless is anonprofit that provides
residential support, autismservices, primary health care
day programs, counseling, and awhole lot more to children and
adults. Our mission is to builda world that realizes the
(00:39):
boundless potential of allpeople. I'm your host, Scott
light. So you heard the voicesof our guests. Let me officially
introduce you to them. KarenCousins is Program Director with
Nami, Franklin County. And Dr.
Jill Crane is a psychologypostdoctoral fellow here at
Boundless. Welcome to you both.
Jill Crane (00:57):
Thank you,
Scott Light (00:58):
Karen, let me come back and ask you to expound on
our kind of rapid fire that westarted with there in the
beginning, you said, taking careof yourself during the holidays
here, expand on that a littlebit, if you would.
Karen Cousins (01:11):
Holidays can be stressful, whether you're in the
middle of grief or not, because,you know, it's the family's
coming. It's the perfect dinner,it's the perfect gift. And, you
know, the house has to be clean,and all of that. But when you're
going through grief, it changeseverything. And so you have to
(01:35):
take care of yourself. Becauseif you've had Christmas dinner
for the last 15 years, and youcook and you, you know, the
decorations, it's okay to say Ican't do it this year, it's
perfectly fine. Or let's do apotluck. You need a plan A, a
plan B, and all the way down thealphabet if necessary.
Scott Light (01:58):
I'm so glad you mentioned. Well, food in the
beginning, I stress over theturkey. Why am I stressing over
a bird? I mean, I want it totaste good. Don't get me wrong.
But you know what I mean? I
Karen Cousins (02:11):
I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, yeah, we
had a goose one Thanksgiving.
And it was horrible. And so we,my husband, and I each took a
bite and threw it in the trash.
So we just had sides. And thatwas fine. And there was no
grief. And while the grief wasthat we didn't have a meal. But
(02:34):
yeah, it's all about doing whatyou need to do to get through
the day, the week, the month,whatever it is.
Scott Light (02:41):
And let's face it, the sides are really good. Yes,
they are around the holidays.
Joe, let me come back to youranswer off the top, you said,
Remember that grief isn't rightor wrong, that it's human.
Jill Crane (02:53):
So the holidays, especially are a time when we
all have expectations of howHow's dinner going to be? Well,
I think this is how it shouldbe. How's gift giving gonna be?
Well, this is how it should bethis is how it's always been. Or
this is how ideally it would be.
And so we have a lot of shouldsthat we place on ourself, even
without grief as part of thepicture for for the holidays.
(03:16):
And then grief comes in and itcomplicates things. Because it's
something that there isn'treally a should about how you
should be feeling or how youshould be reacting to certain
things. And there are somemoments during the holidays that
you might expect to be sad,where you're not sad. And there
(03:37):
are some times when it's acompletely neutral situation,
and it might sweep you off yourfeet. And I think it's important
to remember that, like, in othertimes in the holidays, it's true
to that neither reaction iswrong. It's not wrong to be sad,
it's not wrong to be feeling theholiday spirit. It's not wrong
(04:00):
to have trouble functioning,it's not wrong to be doing just
fine and powering through. It'sall human. It's a human
experience.
Scott Light (04:13):
I also want to start on a personal note with
both of you because this is thisis going to be a powerful
episode for our listeners. Inmany ways. Both of you do
incredible work. And both of youhave also experienced the
unimaginable and that is theloss of a child. Karen Would you
share what you feel comfortablesharing about that loss for you?
Karen Cousins (04:37):
My daughter died a year ago this past
Thanksgiving. And she had severeand persistent mental illness.
For the last 25 years, she wouldshe died about a month before
her 52nd birthday. And you knowmy parents passed away I've had
(05:00):
friends die. And I can onlyspeak for because grief is
different for everyone. And Ican only speak about my
experience, but this is the mostdifficult thing I've ever
experienced in my life.
And it's the most difficultthing I've experienced in my
(05:31):
life, and I have I have memoriesof her before she was ill. And
after she was ill, I thought shehad postpartum depression. And
so I thought, well, you know, aswhat I do, why, let's look some
things up. Let's get acounselor, let's do this, let's
(05:52):
do that. And her behavior reallyspiraled out of control. And,
and if you've never seen mentalillness up close and personal,
you don't recognize it as such,especially if someone's between
18 and 25. Ish. You think it'ssomething else. And once I
realized what was going on, Ifound NAMI. I don't remember how
(06:16):
I found it. But I saved my life,and took classes. All of our
services are free, andvolunteered for a while. And
then I moved to Columbus andstarted working for NAMI. And
she, not only her diagnosis wasschizoaffective disorder, and
(06:39):
she also suffered fromanosognosia, which means she
didn't have the insight to knowthat she was ill. So therefore,
if, you know, if I don't thinkI'm ill, why would I take
medication. So whenever she wasin the hospital, or in jail for
doing something, I would get ona plane, I'd fly to Los Angeles,
(07:01):
and try to get her the help thatshe did not want. Sometimes that
worked. And other times itdidn't. So when a year ago
Thanksgiving, I got a call fromher dad. And she had been
unmedicated and homeless in LosAngeles for about the last five
years. And I would sometimesjust go out to LA and drive
(07:25):
around looking for her. I wasthrilled when she would land up
in, it sounds awful, but I wasthrilled when she was either in
jail, or the hospital. Becauseshe had a roof over her head.
She wasn't on the street, lessdanger. And so I got the call,
(07:45):
and someone had given hersomething with fentanyl in it.
And and it's interesting aboutgrief, because the first two
weeks after she died, I cleanedmy house every day. And I mean,
I was up for like 22 hours oneday. And I think it was not
(08:08):
wanting to feel I've gone to Ithink every bereavement group
that OhioHealth offers. And whatI've learned up to this point is
that it's okay to handle thisthe way I need to handle it.
Sometimes I was in the storejust earlier today, and my
(08:33):
husband called me and he said Ican't find the the lint thing
that goes in the dryer. I said,Well, why are you calling me?
And he said, Well, I said I'msure I put it back. Where would
I put it? And then I thought,oh, did I have one of those
brain things where, you know, Isaid, Well look in the
(08:55):
refrigerator, I don't know whereit is. But he found it and I had
left it somewhere. I've drivenplaces and you know, taken the
wrong exit it just comes andgoes and or I'll be in the
grocery store and I'll see acereal she liked when she was 10
(09:18):
and I'll tear up and it's allokay, I've in a year I've come
to understand that. And in oneof the groups someone said to
me, you'll never be the same.
And I thought that had notoccurred to me. But it's true.
And it's yeah, she was she wasmy daughter.
Scott Light (09:43):
Whats your daughter's name?
Karen Cousins (09:44):
Angela.
Scott Light (09:46):
What is this time of your like for you?
Karen Cousins (09:51):
It's just filled with I have a I have another
daughter who's coming. She livesin Los Angeles. She's an artist
and she's coming to visit forChristmas. So, in fact, she was
she was coming every two months.
I said, Do you think I'm gonnadie? Is that why you keep
getting on a plane coming? Andshe said, well, well, her sister
died. And then her dad diedthree weeks later. So she's had
(10:14):
a lot on her. And I think so I'mfamily now, you know, it's just
me. So it's just hard. Andsometimes you are, you're in the
middle of something that's justvery ordinary. And it will, a
(10:34):
memory will just hit you, andI'll tear up. You know, it might
be 15 seconds. And then I go,okay. All right. And I continue
on. It is hard. It is, it's veryhard.
Scott Light (10:53):
Well, maybe your daughter heard the story that
there's a dryer vent in yourrefrigerator, just wants to come
home. And that's okay. That'sokay. That's okay, too. Jill,
your daughter, Gianna was bornand passed away at eight days
old. And this was also last yearlast December? What can you
(11:16):
share about your loss? So
Jill Crane (11:20):
Karen and I both experienced the loss of a child,
but it's very differentcircumstances, for sure. But
when I was listening to you, Iheard some similarities, too.
I'm not, you're not the onlyperson who's teared up at the
grocery store for seemingly, youknow, a really benign reason. So
this year, when I was doing somegrocery shopping, I pushed my
(11:44):
cart past some of thoseChristmas gift piles. And they
had one of those little rotaryphones, the little Fisher Price
rotary phones. And it juststruck me that, you know,
Gianna, would have been oldenough. And, you know,
motorically skilled enough topull the little dial and watch
(12:07):
the numbers go around and pickup the phone. And we could have
played together with that atthis point. And that is one of
those unusual kind of unexpectedmoments where you find yourself
tearing up or you find yourselfstruck, like I said earlier
swept off your feet by somethingthat other people wouldn't
(12:29):
necessarily think would wouldcause that reaction. But to
answer the first part of yourquestion, in 2022, I became
pregnant with my first child, wehad a very typical, non
(12:50):
concerning pregnancy. And it allwent wrong in the last 20 to 30
minutes of delivery. In fact,there was a shift change right
before she was born. And thenurse who was shifting with
another nurse kind of made thatokay sign and was like, Oh,
(13:12):
we're great. Everything's goingfine. And so when all of a
sudden our heart tones weregoing down, and there was a
whole lot more people in theroom than I thought was probably
normal. We just kind of gotthrown headlong into this event
(13:37):
and this new way of life. Sowhen my daughter was born, she
had an Apgar score of one whichmeans that her heart was
beating. And they went and tookher and warmed her up and put
her on a CPAP. And I I heard hermake a little noise. And I was,
(14:01):
like, elated from where I wasbecause they were working on me.
And for a good period of time,we didn't really know what was
going to happen. So everyonetalks about that golden hour
after you deliver a baby whereyou hold them and you feed them
and you get to bond right away.
And I didn't see her again untilfive or six hours later when she
(14:27):
was being transported toNationwide Children's. And we
went to see her the next day,and she was responding, moving.
She smiled when she heard mecooing at her. And we got the
news that she had experiencedsomething called hypoxic
(14:56):
ischemic encephalopathy. HIV forshort. And it happens in one to
three in 1000 births. A numberof the folks that I've worked
with over the years as a personwho provides psychological
assessment and works withchildren with developmental
(15:18):
disabilities, that's where theirjourneys started. And that put
me in a very unique position asthe person in the family who has
seen children come out of thisand has seen these children go
on to live married verymeaningful, beautiful lives. So
when ever someone would come inand say, Oh, we did a scan, and
(15:42):
here's our result. I alwaystranslated it back to, oh, I
know a kid. I know a personwho's been through this, and let
me tell you, life is differentfor them. But it is beautiful
for them. I love working withthis person. And so that was
where I was for the first threeor four days. And then around
(16:08):
the fifth or sixth day, we gotthe news that she wouldn't be
stable enough to receive some ofthe treatments that would, that
would have a chance at savingher. And the weight that puts on
you as a person is kind ofunlike anything I've ever
(16:33):
experienced. So my husband and Iare Catholic. And one of the one
of the nice elements of theCatholic faith is that when a
baptized baby passes away, thethe idea or the recognition is
that they are a saint in heaven,because they were you can't be
(16:55):
any can't be any more perfectthan you are then. And so it's
been helpful and comforting tolean on my faith and to imagine
her as I believe she is, whichis safe and happy. And looking
over me and my husband, Jim,taking care of us in a way that
(17:21):
we had hoped we would have beenable to take care of her. Our
experience for the holidays is alittle different. We haven't put
up a tree, we are probably goingto spend time with my husband's
family like we did last year.
And we are kind of taking it dayby day doing what we feel like
(17:46):
so we have a little ornamentthat has her picture on it
that's out even if it's not on atree. And we have a little
lantern that says your lightshines in our hearts forever,
something like that. And we arejust trying to take it day by
day.
Scott Light (18:07):
Well, you're both just so strong to share this
with our listeners. And it is soappreciated. Again, let me ask
you both how your thisexperience these personal
experiences with theserespective losses, how has that
(18:30):
then translated to the importantwork that you do? Karen, with
with the work that you do atNami?
Karen Cousins (18:38):
Something that I wanted to add. My daughter had a
son and he's now 26. And helives in Northern California.
And when he was little, I triedto explain to him about his mom.
And because she wasn't likeother moms. And I said, Well,
(18:59):
your mom is sick. And I said butit's not like the cold or the
flu. I said it makes her say anddo odd, very odd things. And he
was so angry that she wasn'tlike other moms. He just didn't
understand. And when he was ateenager, I said, you know, I
(19:20):
said we can always talk. I saidbut you're old enough, you can
look up what schizoaffectivedisorder is and to get a better
understanding. And he reallydidn't want to. And he came to
visit on he's still in schooland came to visit me from
Northern California on hisspring break. And I had found a
(19:43):
journal that Angela had writtenwhen he was about three years
old and where she wanted him togrow up to be, you know, a good
man and all of this and so Isaid this is really yours. And I
gave it to him. And I said youdon't have to read it now. But
he did read it and, and he saidthat really helped. That helped
(20:06):
me a lot. And he said, I want tothank you, he calls me Grammy, I
want to thank you Grammy forteaching me all these years to
be kind. And it just, I almostfell down the stairs, I was just
blown away. He's turned out tobe a really nice young man. And
(20:26):
he finally got it. He said, Youknow, when I'm on bark on the
transportation system up there,and I see people taunting people
with mental illness or treating.
He said that was that was howthey treated my mom. And he
finally got it, you know, but henever knew her well, so he only
knew her. But your question. Imainly work with families that
(20:47):
are the caregivers of someonewho has a has a loved one with a
mental health condition. Andthere are other people in the
organization who work withpeers. But the thing that I try
to get across to families whotake our classes, and I'm
facilitate support groups, isthat this is an illness. This is
(21:08):
not bad behavior. This is notteenaged angst, or, you know,
something that, you know, it'sit's an illness, it just happens
to affect your brain. You know,if you have heart disease, it's
your heart, if you have youknow, lung cancer, it's your
lungs. And that's reallydifficult for parents, spouses,
(21:30):
siblings, whoever it may be. to,to, to, to really get on a
cellular level. Because I thinkthe stigma of mental illness is
so great. I've had I had aparent tell me once I'd rather
have my son have cancer than thementally ill. That's how, how
(21:53):
the wall is up. And once you seeit in their eyes, that they
finally get it, then they canbecome an advocate, you know,
and try and help. But you know,and I didn't make this up, but,
but having loving someone with amental illness, you know, it's a
(22:14):
marathon, it is not a sprint,and there may be great times,
and, and periods for someone'sdoing really well. And then
medication stops working. And,you know, they circle back maybe
to where they were. There arepeople who, who have the insight
and take medication and go tocounseling, and live good lives,
(22:40):
you know, but it's a broadspectrum. And I get great joy
when people finally understandthat, okay, this is what I'm
dealing with, how can I help myson daughter has been whoever,
(23:00):
and then they start workingtowards that.
Scott Light (23:06):
Jill, I saw you nodding your head when when
Karen was talking about whereshe gets joy when when kind of
that light bulb moment ormoments happen.
Jill Crane (23:16):
And it's something that I experienced in my work as
well. So when I do psychologicalassessment, or developmental
assessment, I really find it themost rewarding when a child
seems to have a betterunderstanding of themselves. But
also when parents have thatlightbulb moment where they
(23:40):
realize that my kid is not justacting up, I am not just a bad
parent. And there are treatmentsavailable or approaching life
with this different perspectivemight actually turn some of
these problems on their head andmake them opportunities to grow.
(24:03):
One of the things that I do intherapy and testing is a lot of
psycho education. And one of thethings that really is a
highlight of my job is providingthose light bulb moments to
people. Another thing that kindof struck me about what Karen
(24:27):
said is that having been to asimilar place yourself, you're
in a better position to teachthem those things. I was a
clinician before I had Giannaand my understanding my empathy,
(24:47):
my ability to integrate pasttrauma for parents and for kids
into how I'm working with themhas grown exponentially in the
past year, I, I attended the AAAIDD, so the American Association
on Intellectual andDevelopmental Disabilities
(25:09):
Conference this past year. AndI'm the co chair of this
psychology interest network. Andwhen I was speaking, they're
part of what I did is my talkwas I did a career dedication.
So I dedicated the rest of mycareer to my daughter. I am not
(25:31):
lying when I say that I feelthat Gianna has been a blessing
not just to my life, but to mywork. And she is strengthened my
resolve to really understandpeople and to help people
understand themselves and theirchildren. One of the things I
(25:55):
mentioned at the conference was,I want people to walk away from
knowing me and from working withme. I want them to walk away
with the confidence that lifemight be different, but it can
still be good. In the same waythat when I was in that hospital
room trying to explain to myparents and my husband, even if
(26:17):
she can't talk, did you see thatsmile? Even if she needs a G
Tube, I know kids with G tubes,and they still have a great day,
maybe they don't eat lunch likethe other kids do. But they
still have a good day. Maybethey have trouble communicating.
But I have seen some realwhizzes with their communication
(26:38):
devices. And they'll tell youthis, that and the other thing
about their day and what theywant and what they need.
Scott Light (26:45):
We've had them on the podcast, yes, we had them
sharing through theircommunications devices on on
these very episodes. So
Jill Crane (26:54):
I find that when I'm in the position to provide that
education, and to increase thatunderstanding that the future
can be good. I feel reallyinspired by my daughter to do
that.
Scott Light (27:06):
It is interesting.
And to our listeners, I just saytrust me on this, and that I'm
sitting, you know, two and ahalf feet away from from Karen
and Jill here, but I can just itis palpable, for me, sitting
across from both of you of justhow impassioned both of you are
about your work if I can justfeel it.
Karen Cousins (27:27):
Well you know, it gave me patience, because we had
a family to family class, whichis for caregivers, and it helps
family members learn how tocommunicate with their loved
one, how to take care ofthemselves. medications or
illnesses. So one class eachweek, and there was a couple in
(27:53):
the class, and it's eight weeksand the seventh week. The wife
said I well, I can't say anexpletive about how she didn't
believe any of this was going towork and and they didn't come
back for the eighth class. And Ithought she's not ready. She's
(28:15):
not ready to really grab hold ofthis. She's still pushing away
that there's nothing wrong withhim. He's, he's going to be
okay. And so, sometimes I'llreach out to families that are
little. Yeah, you guys do goodwork, but it's not it's not for
(28:35):
us, you know, and I'll invitethem, you know, we're having a
family seminar. This weekend,maybe you'd like to come or, you
know, and, and eventually,people do come back and they get
it. And that. That makes mesmile. makes me smile.
Scott Light (28:55):
You're both again, respective experts in your
fields in multiple fields. I dida lot of reading too. And I
wanted to properly prep and getyour reactions to a couple of
things. One counselor even wrotegrief, especially at these
moments of the year can bringfor some people in expressively
sad moments, and for others,they can be full of holiday
(29:17):
cheer. And Gillette, you touchedon this a few minutes ago. All
of those feelings are valid.
Give them all space and giveyourself permission to feel
without judgment. Anothercounselor wrote that grief is
often very physical. And and wetalk about self care a lot on
(29:38):
these episodes that that mindbody connection, it is proven
unequivocally to be so, soimportant. What is your best
advice? Right now because stresslevels are so high and they're
even higher for somebody who maybe going through a grieving
process. What's your best advicefor self care right now?
Jill Crane (30:00):
Hmm, a lot of people out there, and I know I was one
of those people at the beginningapproached, events approached,
even just the day to day withthis idea that I have to grieve,
I have to make progress in someway. And at the beginning of the
day, I wouldn't even know whatthat meant. But I knew that, in
(30:22):
my mind, there was some idea ofwhat grieving well was. And by
the end of the day, I would havea sense of whether I did that or
not. And that is a really,really hard way to look at
yourself throughout the year.
But especially during theholidays, when, like you said,
there are additional stressors,there are additional
expectations. One of the thingsthat we talk about in the
(30:44):
psychological world, we talkabout behavioral activation,
this idea that you go out andyou do things, even if you're
not feeling like doing them toimprove your mood. I want to say
that there's room for that. ButI think that there needs to be
much more room for Grievers torest, and to relax, and to lean
into this idea that the holidaysdon't have to be this explosive,
(31:09):
exciting festivit time of year,there's so much room for low key
events for using that cozy imageof the holidays to your
advantage. Because getting outand doing things can be
exhausting. And outside of thedepression, research, there's
(31:31):
grief, which is its own kind ofbeast, and has a lot more
specific things tied into itthat we can't just solve by
getting up going out going tothe potluck anyway, going to the
Christmas concert, andparticipating exactly as you
used to, you want to be aware ofthose feelings, and you want to
(31:55):
accept those feelings and letthem move through you. So
there's moments where you mightexpect to be sad, and you won't
be and you may feel likequestioning that. But just know
that it's human to sometimes beable to get through a certain
(32:16):
event that you thought youwouldn't be able to. And you
might end up in the grocerystore tearing up over a fisher
price for rotary phone or a boxof cereal. And there's nothing
wrong with that either. Thatdoesn't mean that you're
slipping in your grief,progress, whatever that means.
It doesn't mean that you are outof commission for the rest of
(32:41):
the day, the week, the month.
It's your experience, and it'svalid. And it is human to be
reminded and caught up infeelings surrounding those
reminders.
Karen Cousins (32:55):
Self care is something I write about, I do an
article in our newsletter everymonth. And the December article
is generally about families. Andas well, as well as peers, but
it's if you're traveling withyour loved one, let's say out of
(33:17):
state or even locally, thinkabout things that will make the
experience good for both of you.
You need to make sure that youhave enough medic, if you're
going away for a week or aweekend, you need to have enough
medication. Have all theimportant phone numbers of
doctors, psychiatrists,pharmacies handy so that you if
(33:37):
something does come up, you canaddress it. And alcohol, alcohol
and prescription medicationdoesn't usually go very well
together. So I remind peopleabout that. And then again, also
about the expectations that it'sokay if one family member said
(34:01):
Well, last Christmas, we invitedour daughter who has a mental
health condition to the familydinner 20 people and she
exhibited all kinds of strangebehavior and she ruined it for
everyone. And so we were notgoing to invite her this year.
And I said, Well, that's onething you could do. But I said
(34:23):
maybe you could talk to herbeforehand. And inviter and, and
the bottom line is I deal with alot of reality. The bottom line
is it'll it will go fine. Or itwon't. I mean, it's got to be
one or the other. And if you'renot willing to risk that, maybe
(34:46):
you take her out for a specialluncheon with, you know, her
cousin, her sister her whoever.
That's Plan B And each familyhas to have I think I mentioned
earlier, plan A and plan B andPlan C. But, you know, remember
(35:09):
your humanity, yes, this personmay have bipolar disorder, but
they're a human being. And theywant to be loved, just like
everybody else in the family, sofigure out a way that you can
include them. And sometimes youcan't depending on what's going
on with them, but make theeffort.
Scott Light (35:31):
You know we were also talking about, you hit on
the traditions of this time ofthe year, you said you don't
have a tree up right now. Theholidays, of course, full of
traditions, those can be toughfor people who are grieving a
loss, I read about two thingsfrom again, a couple of experts
(35:53):
who said, it can be importantfor some people to honor
traditions and honor memoriesduring this time of the year.
But, or maybe not. But But andor, you can also create new
traditions, maybe setting aplace for that special one that
you've lost, still setting aplace for them at the table, or
(36:14):
lighting a candle for themsaying a prayer for them, all
kinds of things. Karen, what doyou think about that? What is
your mind go? Maybe evenpersonally, for you, but also
professionally when it comes toholiday traditions?
Karen Cousins (36:28):
Personally, it's it's never really been about
gifts. For me, personally, Ihave a tree in the living room,
I have one downstairs in thefamily room, there's just
something about tree lights, andjazz on the on my CDs, that
makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
And I love that. And that's whatI do for me for right now. I
(36:53):
have pictures of Angela aroundthe house. And I had asked a
counselor, I started seeing acounselor, right after she died.
And I said well, maybe maybe Ishouldn't. I said maybe maybe
it's too much, you know? And shesaid, No, no, it's okay. You
know, and, and maybe you'll takemaybe in a year, you'll have one
(37:17):
picture on a mantel, you won'thave one on your office desk and
in your bedroom and, you know,all over. But I think people
have to do what is comfortable.
I was just in a Christmasbereavement group last week. And
(37:38):
one lady said her father haddied. And she said, I carry a
picture of my dad. I mean, whenI was like 10 years old. And she
said, if I go hiking, it's in mybackpack, if it was at
Thanksgiving wasn't at thetable, but it was on a piece of
furniture right by it. And shesaid it's in my purse right now,
(38:00):
she said may sound crazy toeveryone else. She said, but it
makes me feel good. So I thinkpeople are doing different
things. And it's not right orwrong. You know, it's what
you're what you're comfortablewith.
Jill Crane (38:15):
And I think that's part of self care you releasing
yourself from I should do thisor other people will expect me
to do that. I might be expectingmyself to be able to do a
certain thing or to do somethingjust right, like I did last year
or the way I would have done itif my loved one was still here.
(38:38):
And the self care response tothat is, is it something you
really want to do? Or is itsomething you feel like you have
to do to make grief progress orto continue this sense of
normalcy? Because Christmaslights and jazz music feels good
(38:58):
to you and having pictures ofyour daughter feels good to you.
And for me, I have my my phonebackground is her handprints and
that feels right to me. Andhaving her picture in my office
feels right to me. And somepeople might say Oh, is that
(39:21):
okay for work? Yeah, it's okayfor work for me. So, approaching
the holidays, but any time ofyear with Is it right or wrong?
Well, is it right for me isprobably the better question to
ask.
Scott Light (39:39):
As we start to wrap up our conversation here let's
also certainly include talkingabout getting help from a
professional grief can sometimestrigger or exacerbate mental
health conditions like anxiety,post traumatic stress. Sometimes
strong feelings of sadness makeit difficult to Tell if you're
(40:00):
experiencing grief versusdepression, or both.
Additionally, many people alsoexperience challenges to their
mental health during the colderdarker months of the winter
seasons, which we know all alltoo well here in the Midwest.
And Joe, why don't you start usoff here, professional, like
(40:21):
yourself, can certainly help tonavigate all of this.
Jill Crane (40:26):
And one of the things that is really
beneficial, I would say, even ifyou cannot work with an
individual therapist, or there'sa long waitlist for a counselor
in your area, one of the mosthelpful things that I've
encountered over the course ofthis year is grief support
groups. And especially supportgroups that are particular to
(40:50):
your specific loss. So, forexample, it was not too long
after Gianna passed that I'vefound an organization called
hope for HIE, and its parentswho have lost their children in
their parent loss group. Andthey run zoom meetings where
(41:11):
maybe no one in my immediatearea has experienced what I've
experienced, but I can talk tosomeone in Canada and I can talk
to someone in the next stateover who has met with this very
particular sort of grief. Andthere's something so validating
about expressing the things thatyou feel alone in the ways your
(41:35):
grief is manifesting itself andhaving someone else say, Me too.
Karen Cousins (41:40):
In that same vein, I found a group for
parents who've lost adultchildren. So I understand that
completely in that everybody inthe room was on Zoom, but
everybody in the room has hadthat same experience. And so
they get it like maybe somebecause I've been in other
(42:01):
groups where it was just youknow, spouses or siblings or
whatever. But the group forparents of adult children who
have passed away, was the mostmeaningful one for me.
Jill Crane (42:14):
If I could just something, please, just one
thing, because I know that thisis about managing your own grief
during the holidays, butespecially during the holidays,
but also be around, I'veencountered people who want to
support me or other people whoare grieving, and aren't really
(42:35):
sure how to do that. They don'twant to step on your toes, they
don't want to remind you ofsomething that's making that's
they don't want to remind youhave something traumatic, they
don't want to ruin your goodmood. And something that I'd
like to share is that you arenot reminding them of their lost
(42:57):
loved one because we are prettyconstantly aware of our reality.
It has been so meaningful for meto have people say g on his
name, or include her inChristmas cards, or even just
mentioning that I'm thinkingabout you this week. And some
(43:19):
people may not have that samereaction. Some people may still
be in a place where they don'twant to talk about what happened
or answer specific questions. Icertainly would probably advise
against asking about nittygritty elements of the grief as
opposed to just my thoughts arewith you. But I think it's
really important to to just bewarm towards that person. Maybe
(43:44):
you don't even talk about theperson they're grieving, but you
approach them with that warmth.
And you're just kind of therebearing witness to what they're
experiencing.
Scott Light (43:57):
No matter what, most of the time. It's hard to
go wrong with warmth andhumanity. Right for the most
part that can usually get usthrough right. Thank you both
for coming in sharing yourpersonal perspectives and your
professional perspective aswell. This has been a powerful
(44:19):
episode.
Karen Cousins (44:20):
Thank you for inviting us
Scott Light (44:21):
I certainly wish you and your families a happy
healthy and safe holiday seasonwe wish that to all of our
listeners as well as we wrap upseason three of well being here
in 2023 Don't worry we arealready planning season four
right now. And again to ourlisteners you can be part of
(44:41):
episodes to come you can emailus your questions and comments
anytime at podcast atIamboundless.org This is the
Well-Being podcast brought toyou by Boundless.
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