May 27, 2025 • 19 mins
Discipline is often misunderstood as punishment, when it's actually about teaching and guiding children through boundaries and relationship. We explore how effective discipline builds cooperation rather than forcing compliance.
• Discipline's true purpose is teaching, not punishment or making children feel bad
• Force creates only temporary compliance, not lasting behavioral change
• Children's behavior communicates needs; our job is to be curious, not judgmental
• Balancing structure and nurture is key to effective discipline
• Strong relationships make discipline more effective and meaningful
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Brain-Based Parenting, the Boys
Ranch podcast for families.
We all know how hard being aparent is, and sometimes it
feels like there are no goodanswers to the difficult
questions families have whentheir kids are struggling.
Our goal each week will be totry and answer some of those
tough questions, utilizing theknowledge, experience and
(00:23):
professional training CalFarley's Boys Ranch has to offer
.
Now here is your host, CalFarley's Staff Development
Coordinator, Joshua Sprock.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back and thank you for joining us today
as we continue talking aboutbrain-based parenting.
Today we're going to begin aseries on discipline To do that.
I'm joined today by MichelleMycatter, our Chief Program
Officer.
Hello, sam Cerna.
I'm joined today by MichelleMycatter, our chief program
officer.
Sam Cerna, assistantadministrator over residential
communities Hi.
And Chloe Hewitt, alsoassistant administrator over
residential communities Hi.
All right, like we do everyweek, we're going to start with
(00:58):
our question of the day, andsince we're talking about
discipline today, and at theheart of discipline is teaching,
my question for you is who wasyour favorite teacher growing up
and why?
Oh man, that's a tough onethat's a little bit farther back
for me than the rest of y'all.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
My favorite teacher was Miss Crawford and she was my
English teacher, and the reasonwhy I liked her so much was
because one I liked English andso she made English fun, and why
I liked it and then the otherthing was is because she would
tell you when you did somethingwell, and I had a lot of
teachers that didn't do that.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Mine is Miss Martinez .
She was my fifth grade teacherand I really liked her because
she was just different thanother teachers.
She would do fun projects.
It's back when she had acamcorder and she would have us
do these fun interactiveprojects like reenact, the
Battle of Bull Run or some musicvideo.
I don't remember why we weredoing that, but she did really
cool things like that and Ithink she had a good way of
(01:44):
talking to us that made us feelgood.
Speaker 5 (01:46):
Yeah, mine would be my eighth grade teacher, Ms
Trask, and I remember my bestfriend at the time was Lauren
and she was really strugglingwith math.
So Ms Trask had asked me if Iwould stay after every day so
Lauren wasn't by herself workingextra and then she would buy us
popcorn and I remember I justloved it.
So she would go down toTeacher's Lounge and make us
popcorn and then we would domath games to help Lauren do
(02:06):
better, and it really impactedme the amount of extra time she
spent with us.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
All right, so we're going to be talking about
discipline for the next severalweeks, so maybe we better start
by defining it.
What would you guys say isdiscipline?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
You know, we talk about this a lot when we talk
about doing trainings and whatdo we want to accomplish, and so
I think discipline ismisunderstood in a lot of ways.
But discipline is meant toprovide guidance and to help
steer somebody in the rightdirection to be able to be
successful.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Correct.
I mean, like you said, I thinkit's a real big teaching tool.
I think it's a cornerstone tohelp young people grow.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Yeah, I think a lot of times.
When I think of discipline, Ithink it goes hand in hand with
boundaries, right?
Like?
So we're helping our childrenknow the right way and so we're
teaching them, but comingalongside them.
Instead of it being punishmentbased, we want them to learn so
that they can discern what's theright decision Right.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
So that kind of leads me into my next question.
One of my favorite quotes inregards to discipline is force
is all conquering, but itsvictories are short lived.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
What do you think about this quote in regards to
discipline?
I like that quote too, and Ithink it goes to everything
we're saying about kind ofmisunderstandings about what
discipline is about, andsometimes we think it means
scaring people or using force tomake sure that people comply.
You know, you can do, you canmake people do anything with
enough force, but often whatwe're trying to do with children
is transform them to a way ofthinking where they can function
on their own, and so reallyforce has no place in discipline
.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I agree, and it's really.
Force is only as good as longas it's there for the control
piece of it.
All right.
What we're trying to do is getyoung people to do what they're
supposed to do, because it's theright thing to do.
And you know, one of the thingsis, if you're always using
force, they're not reallylearning anything.
They're just doing it becausethey're scared or they feel
powerless, and so the idea is toteach them versus make them.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
I think it's always important to like, even with my
own kids and even with ourresidents out here, with that
when they make a mistake, I wantthem to feel like they can come
back, and if you're using forceas the reason for the
discipline, are they going towant to come back and so really
just always leaving that openwhere they could come back and
have a conversation when they domake mistakes.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Well, I think it's what we, the question of the day
brought up something for us,right?
We all thought about the personthat we picked.
I have plenty of other teachersthat use more force, and you
were just scared of them.
You'd feel like you could talkto them, and so I think that's
one of the big differences.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So maybe we can talk a little bit about some
misconceptions about whatdiscipline is and to do that
maybe, what's the differencebetween discipline and
punishment?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I think probably one of the misconceptions that
discipline gets confused withpunishment is that it should
hurt or it should make you feelbad or make you feel worse, and
I think that's one of the mostharmful aspects of it is that
often, especially with kiddosthat we work with, but a lot of
the adults are the same way isthat we have enough bad feelings
about ourselves and so addingto that, well of you know,
(04:46):
feeling inadequate or shamefuldoesn't make us perform better.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I agree and I don't, you know, I don't think people
ever forget that when somebodyis trying, maybe they're trying
to do the right thing, but Iknow I don't ever forget that
some mean thing an adult mayhave said to me.
And yeah, sure it might havemade me comply, but I also
believe that it creates it cancreate tons of insecurity.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
Well, I think that's why I like therapeutic
discipline.
So much is right.
It's about allowing the childto have some power in whatever
consequence they're going toreceive, and so, instead of it
giving us, as the adult, takingall the power, it's giving the
power some to the child aboutwhat consequence they have for
whatever occurred.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
I think that also gives you a pretty good
barometer in how they'rethinking right.
When you ask a child, hey, whatwould you be willing to do to
make this right?
Are thinking right.
When you ask a child, hey, whatwould you be willing to do to
make this right?
You can kind of see thatsometimes they'll go overboard
or sometimes they don't thinkthey need enough and we can help
guide them into how andteaching them how do you go
about making something right,how do you go about apologizing,
or how do you do it or modelingit or things like that.
(05:47):
That's more of the idea thanjust the punishment part of it
all.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Yeah, especially like what Michelle was saying.
Really, you want them to moveforward and have some power in
it, and so you can move forwardand I think to the differences.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
You know.
If you're just wanting to hurtsomebody or make them, you know,
pay for something they did topunishment would be like if I
had an argument with Sam, Iwould have to write a paper
about why I shouldn't argue withSam.
They've thinking aboutdiscipline and what you want to
learn from that situation is howto resolve a conflict in a
peaceful way.
So then, if I have to go backand resolve that situation with
Sam, I'm going to learn a lotbetter than if I wrote a paper
about it.
Didn't really accomplishanything.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So I've heard you guys talk a little bit about
this in your answers, but Ithink it might be important to
kind of clarify what's thedifference between seeking
compliance and seekingcooperation from our kids and
seeking cooperation from ourkids.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think this one's hard to distinguish sometimes
too, is that you want to be ableto do something together
instead of feeling like you'reexerting power over someone to
make them do it.
And we have a little bit easiertime of that when we think
about coworkers or working on ateam, but we often don't look at
it that way with a kiddo, andso I really want people to do
things because it's out of aconnection and out of a I want
to do the right thing, and notbecause they're afraid or
(06:53):
because I have more power thanthem or they are free.
They're going to have some kindof consequence because of it.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
That's one of the things I, you know, I, when I I
I have supervisor staff and Italk to them sometimes because
people, like you said, MichelleI think that's a good point is
people kind of don't know wherethe line is.
I think sometimes people havegood intentions and they want to
do you, do things, or let'stake away this, or let's ground
them for that.
And I'm like, well, what didyou try asking first?
Did you try seeing, trysomething else to seek
cooperation?
(07:18):
See if they'll go ask first.
Maybe they'll just do what youask the first time, versus
having to resort straight topunishment.
Right, that gives everybody achance to think it through it.
I think it still teaches thesame way.
But I usually tell people hey,try to see cooperation, or the
other word Compliance.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Really a lot of the times.
The kids that I worry the mostabout at ranch are the most
compliant kids because theyhaven't been on our radar.
We're usually catching thebigger behavior with the certain
kids and so sometimes they kindof fly under and we don't
realize until right beforethey're going to leave that we
miss some things, and so I thinkthat's the biggest one is the
compliant kids are the ones thatworry me the most that we
haven't caught it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
So I think you're right, because their whole lives
they've done what they've beentold to do and then when they
leave us, no one's there to tellthem what to do anymore and
they're kind of stuck or they goand follow the wrong things.
So I think that's a really goodpoint.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, they sometimes didn't have a voice when they
were younger, and so thenthey've done what they thought
they had to, and so they didn'tget to voice what they really
needed.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So here out at Boys Ranch, when it comes to
discipline, our approach movesus from the certainty that
behavior is simple willfuldefiance to being curious as to
what the need is behind thebehavior.
Can you guys unpack thatstatement for me?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I think it goes with everything we've been talking
about is that there's kind of atraditional view that if you're
misbehaving, you're doing it onpurpose and you're trying to
make my life more difficult andyou've chosen to do that.
And I think what we know isthat a lot of times, you know we
all do well if we can and whenwe're not doing well, there's
something that's going on that'scausing us to not do well, and
so trying to look at what'sunderneath that, what's causing
(08:49):
us to not be able to besuccessful in the situation, so
being curious instead of justassuming you know the reason for
it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
All right.
So for us, when we're talkingabout discipline, we base it on
kids' neurodevelopment, theirrelational health and past
learning and experiences.
Can you talk to me about howeach one of these areas impact
discipline?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Oh, that's a lot to cover it is.
We mentioned neurodevelopmentlike it's a real easy, concise,
simple topic, but really what weknow is that, based on our
history of relationalexperiences and adversity, our
brains develop in certain waysthat are either more resilient
or more vulnerable, and so weknow all of our brains are
different because all of ourhistories are different, and so
(09:25):
we pay attention to that.
The other thing is relationalhealth is a big buffer for us.
So you can have a lot ofadversity in your life, but if
you have good relational health,you're going to be able to
weather it better, and if youdon't, you're going to struggle
more.
And so we try to look at allthose things, not just the
behaviors in front of us.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yeah, and it's so hard for a person to look at a
kid and, like we talk about allthe time, an older kid,
mid-teens.
You expect them to act that wayright you expect them to act
more, more mature, and thenthey're not acting that mature
and that really confuses adults.
It really confuses and that'swhere I think people think well,
they're doing it on purpose,they're doing it, they're
rebellious, and which?
Yes, sure, some of that is true, but I do believe that it has
to do with, like you saidearlier, trauma.
(10:02):
Their trauma, their templates,all their past experiences,
their lack of relational healthall compound into a thing.
And I also think that you saidit's not a perfect science.
We say a kid, maybe inplacement, is about five years
behind.
That's a big gap.
And then also, you don't knowthat it's five years.
It could be more, it could beless, they could be on par, and
(10:24):
so it's hard for caregivers,especially when you're taking
care of more than one kiddo, totry to discern that.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
That made me think of how we say they know better.
Right, they know better.
To know better means thatyou're able to be thoughtful and
conscious of your actions, butwe know the more stressed out,
more freaked out you get aboutthings, the less you're going to
be thoughtful about yourintentions or more emotional and
reactive about them.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
And that's real fair.
And also you've got to considerwhere the adults are in all
this right.
What is the adult's templateand the adult's relationship,
the adult's development?
And just because we're all over18 doesn't mean we're always in
the right spot in our world.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
We're 18 doesn't mean we're always in the right spot
in our world and I think whenthey get triggered then it's
harder for them to be curiousabout what's driving the
behavior, a lot of the timeunderneath what's causing it.
Past experiences, because theyhave their own template and then
they're having to be curiousabout the kid's behavior and so
and our brain likes to feel safe.
So it's easier to tellourselves like they're doing it
on purpose, because that's justeasier for us to understand Not
(11:22):
necessarily because that'swhat's really happening but it's
just easier for us to tellourselves that they're doing it
intentionally.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Well, yeah, I heard somewhere that our brains are
always just trying to create anarrative, always trying to make
the story make sense.
So why did this kid do this?
Well, here's why.
It's obvious, right, it's?
Speaker 5 (11:36):
obvious.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
They just want to make me mad right.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So we often use the iceberg analogy when it comes to
talking about discipline.
Could you guys walk?
Speaker 4 (11:48):
me through this analogy Behavior is always what
we see, the tip of the iceberg,so to speak, the iceberg that
sticks out of the ocean, butonly about 20% of the icebergs
actually at the top, and you cantry to deal with that part, the
iceberg, the behavior.
You can try to deal with it,but as you chop off the top, the
bottom keeps coming up, soyou're not really taking care of
the problem.
The problem at the bottom andunder the water is the all the
(12:08):
stuff you know, all the trauma,all the previous things that
have happened in a person's life, and so we just, it's like
doing the same thing over andover and expecting a different
result.
You're trying to take care ofthis behavior and you notice
nothing ever changes.
They keep doing the same thingbecause we're not dealing with
the problem that's under there.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Yeah, I mean it's one of my favorite things to use.
I said that before we evenstarted.
It's one of my favorite thingsto use with the kids, along with
our staff, because really, whenan incident happens, it's like
trying to break it down andfigure out what's really driving
it and what needs aren't beingmet and what's what.
What are we missing?
Because there's always way moregoing on and trying to get to
the root so that we can meet theneeds and actually see the
(12:45):
change.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And we, you know, we talk about how behavior is just
communication, and so it's partof being curious as to what's
being communicated to us that wehave to figure it out, and I
think that goes for all of ustoo.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Sometimes we think it's just the kids, but it's the
same way with adults too, andone of the things that sticks
out to me with iceberg analogyis we as adults are often really
really good at seeing thatbehavior right Because it's
right out in front of us, butthe stuff below the surface is
driving that behavior we don'talways see.
So we can be really good aboutconsequencing the behavior and
then be frustrated.
That never really fixes theproblem.
So when it comes to that, howimportant is it to have a
(13:16):
relationship with your kids inregards to discipline?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I think we all know that.
You know, in order to learnfrom someone, it helps that we
have a relationship and yourespect them.
It's a lot easier to learn andlisten to someone that you love
and respect than someone who youdon't have a relationship with,
and so the more connected youare, the more secure your
relationship is, the easierdiscipline and other kinds of
things will be to you know asthey come along.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What about the importance of setting
appropriate boundaries for kids?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
I mean I love this one just because I think it's
physical touch, or even just notwanting to do something.
I love kids being allowed tosay no because that's really
what they need, and maybe theynever got that voice prior, or
they weren't allowed to say nowherever they were before, and
so it just really is allowingthem to have the appropriate
boundary and giving them thatspace and respecting it, because
(14:03):
they might not have gotten itbefore.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
And the word appropriate boundaries is the
key here, right, because for atoddler, their boundaries got to
be way closer to me.
Right, it's appropriate forthem to kind of move away from
me yet come back.
And even my young kids, theycan go a little further.
But is it appropriate for themto leave my side completely?
I'm not sure.
It just depends on thesituation and also in how they
act.
You know, you got to teach,right, Boundaries are about
teaching.
Yes, that's okay, no, that'snot okay.
(14:27):
This situation, that's okay.
You know this situation, that'snot okay, right.
And that goes back to ourrelationship piece.
So I take my grandson out totown with me and you know he's
little, so he acts up a littlebit and I just kind of, hey, is
anyone else doing that here?
And he goes, no, okay, that'snot what we're supposed to do.
Okay, we stand in line and wewait and it's teaching.
I got to understand he's little, but I got to start teaching
(14:49):
him the boundaries at some point, right, and I understand where
he's at in his place.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Yeah, I think it's such a hard one because it seems
like we don't get good examplesof good boundaries.
We get either at eitherexamples of no boundaries or too
much, and so one of thetoughest things about being a
parent is adjusting on what youallow your kids to do right Just
look what Sam's saying.
So, when they're younger, beingstricter and you know more
within their vicinity, and then,as they get older, to lessen
(15:13):
those things, so they have moreautonomy, and I think people
either get at one or the other,but we're typically not good at
both, and so to adjust to whatis appropriate for their level
of functioning and their age isdifficult, and I think we all
struggle with that somewhat.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
I remember the first time that my son because he
doesn't like physical touch thatmuch told someone no to a hug.
It was my favorite thing ever,which probably wrecks other
parents.
But I was like so thrilled,like hey, he doesn't want to,
and he voiced that and so I wasproud in that moment that he
could say no even at two.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
My youngest is the same way.
She doesn't like a lot ofphysical touch and she was sick
one time and I was patting herback and she said you're making
it a little bit worse, whichmakes you feel terrible.
But then you're also glad thatthey're able to say what they
need and what they don't need.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
One of the things I like about boundaries is that
paradoxically, I guess createssafety, like I heard a story
just the other day.
Someone told me about a newschool that was built an
elementary school and theplayground at first didn't have
a fence around it and all thekids huddled real close to the
school.
They wouldn't go out into theplayground.
But as soon as they built thefence, then the kids actually
went out and started playing onthe playground equipment.
(16:15):
So I think having healthyboundaries helps kids feel safe.
They know where they stand,they know what's allowed, what's
not allowed and they canpredict it, which makes it
easier for them to meetexpectations.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
I like that.
I almost said that earlier.
I think kids like boundariesmore than people believe or know
, because I think a lot of timeswhen we put boundaries in place
with our kids, they'll comeback and thank us, and so it
just makes me happy that theyalso respect having that.
So that story illustrates thatperfectly.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Well, that's how they learn, you know, when I set a
boundary, well, like, I havethings I've collected, right?
And I tell my grandkids becausethey're young and they're in my
house now and hey, this stuffis grandpa stuff, this stuff,
right here, we can't play with,these aren't toys, right?
And also, I respect theirboundaries, right, this is your
closet, let's take out your toys, I ask.
But I teach them to ask can Isit on your bed?
And things like that.
(17:02):
And these are my grandkids,right.
But I think it's a matter ofmodeling that respect piece.
If I can show them myboundaries and enforce them when
I have to, they also learn todo the same thing when I go to
their space and I think that's agood way to teach kiddos.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So it sounds like you have to try and find a balance
between enforcing structure androutine while at the same time
building and maintainingrelationships.
So what might be some warningsigns that you don't have good
structure or boundaries withyour kids?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It seems like, again, going back to it, it seems like
we have extremes right.
So what happens is we'll let alot of things go for a really
long time and then they'll buildup and we'll get really upset
about it and we'll give it areally extreme consequence
because we've let it build up.
And so I think that is hard tofigure out when to address
things and when to let go, andthat a lot of times that takes
kind of some self you knowassessment, but then also
(17:48):
sometimes feedback fromwhoever's trying to help you
parent about what you'restruggling with.
And so I think, just like wewere saying, kids do appreciate
structure, but when there isn'trelationship, or it's a surprise
or it's different than whatthey're used to, they're going
to fight back on that, and sothat's always a good indication
that things haven't quite gonethe way that you wanted them to.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
Yeah, it's finding that balance.
We talk about it all the timebut trying to guide it right.
You want right in the middlebetween the structure and the
nurture, but it's easier saidthan done and I think it's
having an honest conversationwith your spouse or your friends
like where do I lie on thiscontinuum?
Because a lot of times I thinkI lie towards structure, but my
friends and my husband would say, hey, you're the nurturer, and
so it's been interesting gettingthat feedback and allowing for
(18:28):
an open conversation about whereyou lie and then knowing what
areas you could probably grow inI think will help.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It's nice if you have that kind of feedback, because
I know for my husband and I whenwe were raising our kids and
they were younger, there'd betimes that we would tell them
they couldn't do something or wewouldn't allow something.
And then when we kind of talkedabout it, it was more reflexive
because that's what we weretaught, Not really that we
thought it was meaningful andthat we needed to enforce it.
But if we wouldn't have had thatkind of communication, we
wouldn't have kind of evaluatedit and reflected on it and then
(18:54):
changed what we were doing towork better for us.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
All right.
Thank you all for beingdisciplined enough to make it
through another brain-basedparenting podcast with us today
and come back next week when wewill discuss how to address less
significant behaviors withdiscipline.
Until then, remember you mighthave to loan out your frontal
lobes today.
Just make sure you remember andget them back.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Thank you for listening to Brain-Based
Parenting.
We hope you enjoyed this show.
If you would like moreinformation about Cal Farley's
Boys Ranch, are interested inemployment, would like
information about placing yourchild, or would like to help us
help children by donating to ourmission, please visit
(19:34):
calfarleyorg.
You can find us on all socialmedia platforms by searching for
Cal Farley's.
Thank you for spending yourtime with us and have a blessed
day.
Welcome to Brain-Based Parenting, the Boys
Ranch podcast for families.
We all know how hard being aparent is, and sometimes it
feels like there are no goodanswers to the difficult
questions families have whentheir kids are struggling.
Our goal each week will be totry and answer some of those
tough questions, utilizing theknowledge, experience and
(00:23):
professional training CalFarley's Boys Ranch has to offer
.
Now here is your host, CalFarley's Staff Development
Coordinator, Joshua Sprock.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back and thank you for joining us today
as we continue talking aboutbrain-based parenting.
Today we're going to begin aseries on discipline To do that.
I'm joined today by MichelleMycatter, our Chief Program
Officer.
Hello, sam Cerna.
I'm joined today by MichelleMycatter, our chief program
officer.
Sam Cerna, assistantadministrator over residential
communities Hi.
And Chloe Hewitt, alsoassistant administrator over
residential communities Hi.
All right, like we do everyweek, we're going to start with
(00:58):
our question of the day, andsince we're talking about
discipline today, and at theheart of discipline is teaching,
my question for you is who wasyour favorite teacher growing up
and why?
Oh man, that's a tough onethat's a little bit farther back
for me than the rest of y'all.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
My favorite teacher was Miss Crawford and she was my
English teacher, and the reasonwhy I liked her so much was
because one I liked English andso she made English fun, and why
I liked it and then the otherthing was is because she would
tell you when you did somethingwell, and I had a lot of
teachers that didn't do that.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Mine is Miss Martinez .
She was my fifth grade teacherand I really liked her because
she was just different thanother teachers.
She would do fun projects.
It's back when she had acamcorder and she would have us
do these fun interactiveprojects like reenact, the
Battle of Bull Run or some musicvideo.
I don't remember why we weredoing that, but she did really
cool things like that and Ithink she had a good way of
(01:44):
talking to us that made us feelgood.
Speaker 5 (01:46):
Yeah, mine would be my eighth grade teacher, Ms
Trask, and I remember my bestfriend at the time was Lauren
and she was really strugglingwith math.
So Ms Trask had asked me if Iwould stay after every day so
Lauren wasn't by herself workingextra and then she would buy us
popcorn and I remember I justloved it.
So she would go down toTeacher's Lounge and make us
popcorn and then we would domath games to help Lauren do
(02:06):
better, and it really impactedme the amount of extra time she
spent with us.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
All right, so we're going to be talking about
discipline for the next severalweeks, so maybe we better start
by defining it.
What would you guys say isdiscipline?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
You know, we talk about this a lot when we talk
about doing trainings and whatdo we want to accomplish, and so
I think discipline ismisunderstood in a lot of ways.
But discipline is meant toprovide guidance and to help
steer somebody in the rightdirection to be able to be
successful.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Correct.
I mean, like you said, I thinkit's a real big teaching tool.
I think it's a cornerstone tohelp young people grow.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Yeah, I think a lot of times.
When I think of discipline, Ithink it goes hand in hand with
boundaries, right?
Like?
So we're helping our childrenknow the right way and so we're
teaching them, but comingalongside them.
Instead of it being punishmentbased, we want them to learn so
that they can discern what's theright decision Right.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
So that kind of leads me into my next question.
One of my favorite quotes inregards to discipline is force
is all conquering, but itsvictories are short lived.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
What do you think about this quote in regards to
discipline?
I like that quote too, and Ithink it goes to everything
we're saying about kind ofmisunderstandings about what
discipline is about, andsometimes we think it means
scaring people or using force tomake sure that people comply.
You know, you can do, you canmake people do anything with
enough force, but often whatwe're trying to do with children
is transform them to a way ofthinking where they can function
on their own, and so reallyforce has no place in discipline
.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
I agree, and it's really.
Force is only as good as longas it's there for the control
piece of it.
All right.
What we're trying to do is getyoung people to do what they're
supposed to do, because it's theright thing to do.
And you know, one of the thingsis, if you're always using
force, they're not reallylearning anything.
They're just doing it becausethey're scared or they feel
powerless, and so the idea is toteach them versus make them.
Speaker 5 (03:46):
I think it's always important to like, even with my
own kids and even with ourresidents out here, with that
when they make a mistake, I wantthem to feel like they can come
back, and if you're using forceas the reason for the
discipline, are they going towant to come back and so really
just always leaving that openwhere they could come back and
have a conversation when they domake mistakes.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Well, I think it's what we, the question of the day
brought up something for us,right?
We all thought about the personthat we picked.
I have plenty of other teachersthat use more force, and you
were just scared of them.
You'd feel like you could talkto them, and so I think that's
one of the big differences.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So maybe we can talk a little bit about some
misconceptions about whatdiscipline is and to do that
maybe, what's the differencebetween discipline and
punishment?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
I think probably one of the misconceptions that
discipline gets confused withpunishment is that it should
hurt or it should make you feelbad or make you feel worse, and
I think that's one of the mostharmful aspects of it is that
often, especially with kiddosthat we work with, but a lot of
the adults are the same way isthat we have enough bad feelings
about ourselves and so addingto that, well of you know,
(04:46):
feeling inadequate or shamefuldoesn't make us perform better.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I agree and I don't, you know, I don't think people
ever forget that when somebodyis trying, maybe they're trying
to do the right thing, but Iknow I don't ever forget that
some mean thing an adult mayhave said to me.
And yeah, sure it might havemade me comply, but I also
believe that it creates it cancreate tons of insecurity.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
Well, I think that's why I like therapeutic
discipline.
So much is right.
It's about allowing the childto have some power in whatever
consequence they're going toreceive, and so, instead of it
giving us, as the adult, takingall the power, it's giving the
power some to the child aboutwhat consequence they have for
whatever occurred.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
I think that also gives you a pretty good
barometer in how they'rethinking right.
When you ask a child, hey, whatwould you be willing to do to
make this right?
Are thinking right.
When you ask a child, hey, whatwould you be willing to do to
make this right?
You can kind of see thatsometimes they'll go overboard
or sometimes they don't thinkthey need enough and we can help
guide them into how andteaching them how do you go
about making something right,how do you go about apologizing,
or how do you do it or modelingit or things like that.
(05:47):
That's more of the idea thanjust the punishment part of it
all.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Yeah, especially like what Michelle was saying.
Really, you want them to moveforward and have some power in
it, and so you can move forwardand I think to the differences.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
You know.
If you're just wanting to hurtsomebody or make them, you know,
pay for something they did topunishment would be like if I
had an argument with Sam, Iwould have to write a paper
about why I shouldn't argue withSam.
They've thinking aboutdiscipline and what you want to
learn from that situation is howto resolve a conflict in a
peaceful way.
So then, if I have to go backand resolve that situation with
Sam, I'm going to learn a lotbetter than if I wrote a paper
about it.
Didn't really accomplishanything.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So I've heard you guys talk a little bit about
this in your answers, but Ithink it might be important to
kind of clarify what's thedifference between seeking
compliance and seekingcooperation from our kids and
seeking cooperation from ourkids.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I think this one's hard to distinguish sometimes
too, is that you want to be ableto do something together
instead of feeling like you'reexerting power over someone to
make them do it.
And we have a little bit easiertime of that when we think
about coworkers or working on ateam, but we often don't look at
it that way with a kiddo, andso I really want people to do
things because it's out of aconnection and out of a I want
to do the right thing, and notbecause they're afraid or
(06:53):
because I have more power thanthem or they are free.
They're going to have some kindof consequence because of it.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
That's one of the things I, you know, I, when I I
I have supervisor staff and Italk to them sometimes because
people, like you said, MichelleI think that's a good point is
people kind of don't know wherethe line is.
I think sometimes people havegood intentions and they want to
do you, do things, or let'stake away this, or let's ground
them for that.
And I'm like, well, what didyou try asking first?
Did you try seeing, trysomething else to seek
cooperation?
(07:18):
See if they'll go ask first.
Maybe they'll just do what youask the first time, versus
having to resort straight topunishment.
Right, that gives everybody achance to think it through it.
I think it still teaches thesame way.
But I usually tell people hey,try to see cooperation, or the
other word Compliance.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Really a lot of the times.
The kids that I worry the mostabout at ranch are the most
compliant kids because theyhaven't been on our radar.
We're usually catching thebigger behavior with the certain
kids and so sometimes they kindof fly under and we don't
realize until right beforethey're going to leave that we
miss some things, and so I thinkthat's the biggest one is the
compliant kids are the ones thatworry me the most that we
haven't caught it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
So I think you're right, because their whole lives
they've done what they've beentold to do and then when they
leave us, no one's there to tellthem what to do anymore and
they're kind of stuck or they goand follow the wrong things.
So I think that's a really goodpoint.
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, they sometimes didn't have a voice when they
were younger, and so thenthey've done what they thought
they had to, and so they didn'tget to voice what they really
needed.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So here out at Boys Ranch, when it comes to
discipline, our approach movesus from the certainty that
behavior is simple willfuldefiance to being curious as to
what the need is behind thebehavior.
Can you guys unpack thatstatement for me?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I think it goes with everything we've been talking
about is that there's kind of atraditional view that if you're
misbehaving, you're doing it onpurpose and you're trying to
make my life more difficult andyou've chosen to do that.
And I think what we know isthat a lot of times, you know we
all do well if we can and whenwe're not doing well, there's
something that's going on that'scausing us to not do well, and
so trying to look at what'sunderneath that, what's causing
(08:49):
us to not be able to besuccessful in the situation, so
being curious instead of justassuming you know the reason for
it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
All right.
So for us, when we're talkingabout discipline, we base it on
kids' neurodevelopment, theirrelational health and past
learning and experiences.
Can you talk to me about howeach one of these areas impact
discipline?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Oh, that's a lot to cover it is.
We mentioned neurodevelopmentlike it's a real easy, concise,
simple topic, but really what weknow is that, based on our
history of relationalexperiences and adversity, our
brains develop in certain waysthat are either more resilient
or more vulnerable, and so weknow all of our brains are
different because all of ourhistories are different, and so
(09:25):
we pay attention to that.
The other thing is relationalhealth is a big buffer for us.
So you can have a lot ofadversity in your life, but if
you have good relational health,you're going to be able to
weather it better, and if youdon't, you're going to struggle
more.
And so we try to look at allthose things, not just the
behaviors in front of us.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yeah, and it's so hard for a person to look at a
kid and, like we talk about allthe time, an older kid,
mid-teens.
You expect them to act that wayright you expect them to act
more, more mature, and thenthey're not acting that mature
and that really confuses adults.
It really confuses and that'swhere I think people think well,
they're doing it on purpose,they're doing it, they're
rebellious, and which?
Yes, sure, some of that is true, but I do believe that it has
to do with, like you saidearlier, trauma.
(10:02):
Their trauma, their templates,all their past experiences,
their lack of relational healthall compound into a thing.
And I also think that you saidit's not a perfect science.
We say a kid, maybe inplacement, is about five years
behind.
That's a big gap.
And then also, you don't knowthat it's five years.
It could be more, it could beless, they could be on par, and
(10:24):
so it's hard for caregivers,especially when you're taking
care of more than one kiddo, totry to discern that.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
That made me think of how we say they know better.
Right, they know better.
To know better means thatyou're able to be thoughtful and
conscious of your actions, butwe know the more stressed out,
more freaked out you get aboutthings, the less you're going to
be thoughtful about yourintentions or more emotional and
reactive about them.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
And that's real fair.
And also you've got to considerwhere the adults are in all
this right.
What is the adult's templateand the adult's relationship,
the adult's development?
And just because we're all over18 doesn't mean we're always in
the right spot in our world.
Speaker 5 (11:02):
We're 18 doesn't mean we're always in the right spot
in our world and I think whenthey get triggered then it's
harder for them to be curiousabout what's driving the
behavior, a lot of the timeunderneath what's causing it.
Past experiences, because theyhave their own template and then
they're having to be curiousabout the kid's behavior and so
and our brain likes to feel safe.
So it's easier to tellourselves like they're doing it
on purpose, because that's justeasier for us to understand Not
(11:22):
necessarily because that'swhat's really happening but it's
just easier for us to tellourselves that they're doing it
intentionally.
Speaker 4 (11:27):
Well, yeah, I heard somewhere that our brains are
always just trying to create anarrative, always trying to make
the story make sense.
So why did this kid do this?
Well, here's why.
It's obvious, right, it's?
Speaker 5 (11:36):
obvious.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
They just want to make me mad right.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So we often use the iceberg analogy when it comes to
talking about discipline.
Could you guys walk?
Speaker 4 (11:48):
me through this analogy Behavior is always what
we see, the tip of the iceberg,so to speak, the iceberg that
sticks out of the ocean, butonly about 20% of the icebergs
actually at the top, and you cantry to deal with that part, the
iceberg, the behavior.
You can try to deal with it,but as you chop off the top, the
bottom keeps coming up, soyou're not really taking care of
the problem.
The problem at the bottom andunder the water is the all the
(12:08):
stuff you know, all the trauma,all the previous things that
have happened in a person's life, and so we just, it's like
doing the same thing over andover and expecting a different
result.
You're trying to take care ofthis behavior and you notice
nothing ever changes.
They keep doing the same thingbecause we're not dealing with
the problem that's under there.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Yeah, I mean it's one of my favorite things to use.
I said that before we evenstarted.
It's one of my favorite thingsto use with the kids, along with
our staff, because really, whenan incident happens, it's like
trying to break it down andfigure out what's really driving
it and what needs aren't beingmet and what's what.
What are we missing?
Because there's always way moregoing on and trying to get to
the root so that we can meet theneeds and actually see the
(12:45):
change.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And we, you know, we talk about how behavior is just
communication, and so it's partof being curious as to what's
being communicated to us that wehave to figure it out, and I
think that goes for all of ustoo.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Sometimes we think it's just the kids, but it's the
same way with adults too, andone of the things that sticks
out to me with iceberg analogyis we as adults are often really
really good at seeing thatbehavior right Because it's
right out in front of us, butthe stuff below the surface is
driving that behavior we don'talways see.
So we can be really good aboutconsequencing the behavior and
then be frustrated.
That never really fixes theproblem.
So when it comes to that, howimportant is it to have a
(13:16):
relationship with your kids inregards to discipline?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I think we all know that.
You know, in order to learnfrom someone, it helps that we
have a relationship and yourespect them.
It's a lot easier to learn andlisten to someone that you love
and respect than someone who youdon't have a relationship with,
and so the more connected youare, the more secure your
relationship is, the easierdiscipline and other kinds of
things will be to you know asthey come along.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What about the importance of setting
appropriate boundaries for kids?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
I mean I love this one just because I think it's
physical touch, or even just notwanting to do something.
I love kids being allowed tosay no because that's really
what they need, and maybe theynever got that voice prior, or
they weren't allowed to say nowherever they were before, and
so it just really is allowingthem to have the appropriate
boundary and giving them thatspace and respecting it, because
(14:03):
they might not have gotten itbefore.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
And the word appropriate boundaries is the
key here, right, because for atoddler, their boundaries got to
be way closer to me.
Right, it's appropriate forthem to kind of move away from
me yet come back.
And even my young kids, theycan go a little further.
But is it appropriate for themto leave my side completely?
I'm not sure.
It just depends on thesituation and also in how they
act.
You know, you got to teach,right, Boundaries are about
teaching.
Yes, that's okay, no, that'snot okay.
(14:27):
This situation, that's okay.
You know this situation, that'snot okay, right.
And that goes back to ourrelationship piece.
So I take my grandson out totown with me and you know he's
little, so he acts up a littlebit and I just kind of, hey, is
anyone else doing that here?
And he goes, no, okay, that'snot what we're supposed to do.
Okay, we stand in line and wewait and it's teaching.
I got to understand he's little, but I got to start teaching
(14:49):
him the boundaries at some point, right, and I understand where
he's at in his place.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Yeah, I think it's such a hard one because it seems
like we don't get good examplesof good boundaries.
We get either at eitherexamples of no boundaries or too
much, and so one of thetoughest things about being a
parent is adjusting on what youallow your kids to do right Just
look what Sam's saying.
So, when they're younger, beingstricter and you know more
within their vicinity, and then,as they get older, to lessen
(15:13):
those things, so they have moreautonomy, and I think people
either get at one or the other,but we're typically not good at
both, and so to adjust to whatis appropriate for their level
of functioning and their age isdifficult, and I think we all
struggle with that somewhat.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
I remember the first time that my son because he
doesn't like physical touch thatmuch told someone no to a hug.
It was my favorite thing ever,which probably wrecks other
parents.
But I was like so thrilled,like hey, he doesn't want to,
and he voiced that and so I wasproud in that moment that he
could say no even at two.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
My youngest is the same way.
She doesn't like a lot ofphysical touch and she was sick
one time and I was patting herback and she said you're making
it a little bit worse, whichmakes you feel terrible.
But then you're also glad thatthey're able to say what they
need and what they don't need.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
One of the things I like about boundaries is that
paradoxically, I guess createssafety, like I heard a story
just the other day.
Someone told me about a newschool that was built an
elementary school and theplayground at first didn't have
a fence around it and all thekids huddled real close to the
school.
They wouldn't go out into theplayground.
But as soon as they built thefence, then the kids actually
went out and started playing onthe playground equipment.
(16:15):
So I think having healthyboundaries helps kids feel safe.
They know where they stand,they know what's allowed, what's
not allowed and they canpredict it, which makes it
easier for them to meetexpectations.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
I like that.
I almost said that earlier.
I think kids like boundariesmore than people believe or know
, because I think a lot of timeswhen we put boundaries in place
with our kids, they'll comeback and thank us, and so it
just makes me happy that theyalso respect having that.
So that story illustrates thatperfectly.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Well, that's how they learn, you know, when I set a
boundary, well, like, I havethings I've collected, right?
And I tell my grandkids becausethey're young and they're in my
house now and hey, this stuffis grandpa stuff, this stuff,
right here, we can't play with,these aren't toys, right?
And also, I respect theirboundaries, right, this is your
closet, let's take out your toys, I ask.
But I teach them to ask can Isit on your bed?
And things like that.
(17:02):
And these are my grandkids,right.
But I think it's a matter ofmodeling that respect piece.
If I can show them myboundaries and enforce them when
I have to, they also learn todo the same thing when I go to
their space and I think that's agood way to teach kiddos.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So it sounds like you have to try and find a balance
between enforcing structure androutine while at the same time
building and maintainingrelationships.
So what might be some warningsigns that you don't have good
structure or boundaries withyour kids?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It seems like, again, going back to it, it seems like
we have extremes right.
So what happens is we'll let alot of things go for a really
long time and then they'll buildup and we'll get really upset
about it and we'll give it areally extreme consequence
because we've let it build up.
And so I think that is hard tofigure out when to address
things and when to let go, andthat a lot of times that takes
kind of some self you knowassessment, but then also
(17:48):
sometimes feedback fromwhoever's trying to help you
parent about what you'restruggling with.
And so I think, just like wewere saying, kids do appreciate
structure, but when there isn'trelationship, or it's a surprise
or it's different than whatthey're used to, they're going
to fight back on that, and sothat's always a good indication
that things haven't quite gonethe way that you wanted them to.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
Yeah, it's finding that balance.
We talk about it all the timebut trying to guide it right.
You want right in the middlebetween the structure and the
nurture, but it's easier saidthan done and I think it's
having an honest conversationwith your spouse or your friends
like where do I lie on thiscontinuum?
Because a lot of times I thinkI lie towards structure, but my
friends and my husband would say, hey, you're the nurturer, and
so it's been interesting gettingthat feedback and allowing for
(18:28):
an open conversation about whereyou lie and then knowing what
areas you could probably grow inI think will help.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
It's nice if you have that kind of feedback, because
I know for my husband and I whenwe were raising our kids and
they were younger, there'd betimes that we would tell them
they couldn't do something or wewouldn't allow something.
And then when we kind of talkedabout it, it was more reflexive
because that's what we weretaught, Not really that we
thought it was meaningful andthat we needed to enforce it.
But if we wouldn't have had thatkind of communication, we
wouldn't have kind of evaluatedit and reflected on it and then
(18:54):
changed what we were doing towork better for us.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
All right.
Thank you all for beingdisciplined enough to make it
through another brain-basedparenting podcast with us today
and come back next week when wewill discuss how to address less
significant behaviors withdiscipline.
Until then, remember you mighthave to loan out your frontal
lobes today.
Just make sure you remember andget them back.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Thank you for listening to Brain-Based
Parenting.
We hope you enjoyed this show.
If you would like moreinformation about Cal Farley's
Boys Ranch, are interested inemployment, would like
information about placing yourchild, or would like to help us
help children by donating to ourmission, please visit
(19:34):
calfarleyorg.
You can find us on all socialmedia platforms by searching for
Cal Farley's.
Thank you for spending yourtime with us and have a blessed
day.
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