December 9, 2024 • 53 mins
On this episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy discuss some hot topics parents face when raising teenagers. They explore three main areas: curfews, dating, and clothing/hair choices, and provide practical tips for minimizing conflicts about those topics. Sharing personal anecdotes and expert advice, they emphasize the importance of flexibility, open communication, problem solving, values-driven decision making, and mutual respect in these contexts. They also touch on the impact of technology on parenting and maintaining trust with teens.
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Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore. Dr. Amy and her rotating co-hosts bring listeners conversations with experts on topics in parenting, child development, education, psychology, mental health, and neuroscience. Listeners leave with tips and helpful advice for helping moms and kids thrive in life, learning, and relationships. This episode is co-hosted with Sandy Zamalis.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:00):
Hi smart moms and dads, welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningRx Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm Dr Amy Moore and I'm herewith Sandy Zamalis, and Sandy
and I were talking about whatare some of those topics that
cause conflict in families whoare raising teenagers, and so we
(00:21):
picked three of those topics totalk about today, and so those
are curfews, dating and clothingand hair choices, teen fashion.
So we're going to talk abouthow they create conflict and
some tips for how to helpresolve some of that conflict
(00:42):
and minimize some of that inyour homes.
Hi Sandy, hi Dr Amy, let's getstarted, all right.
So let's talk about curfews.
Like, it's interesting becauseI considered myself really
flexible when it came to curfewsand I had friends who were
(01:04):
really strict about theircurfews and my mom if I was one
minute late for curfew when Iwas a teenager, I was grounded
for a week.
Sandy Zamalis (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's my husband.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:19):
What's his reasoning?
Sandy Zamalis (01:21):
I think some of it for my husband.
That's how he was raised.
The funny story is myfather-in-law used to tell them
all right, you have to be backat the house by 11.
But they didn't have to be inthe house, they just had to be
on the premises.
So my husband would run homeand he would stomp on the front
porch so that they could hearthat he got there and then they
(01:42):
would proceed to talk on thefront porch, but he was there on
the premises.
So I think some of that for himis that upbringing.
And my husband's amilitary-minded guy.
He very much likes orderstructure go to bed at a certain
time, wake up at a certain time.
Everything in his world justoperates that way.
(02:02):
So for the kids, I think forhim it just one.
He definitely came from thebackground of there's nothing
good happening after a certaintime, so you shouldn't be
participating, right.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:16):
That was a very common phrase to hear in the 80s
right.
Sandy Zamalis (02:19):
But also it just gave him peace of mind, because
I'm the one who would getnervous and wait up for them.
He wouldn't necessarily wait upfor them, but at the same time
he definitely wanted thosecurfew rules in place for safety
.
So I think that's where it camefrom for him.
We certainly did battle over itin our house.
(02:39):
If you were more flexible, Idon't know what was it like in
your house.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:45):
So Jeff and I didn't argue over curfews.
He was pretty flexible too.
He grew up pretty flexible Likehis parents didn't give him a
curfew and so he didn't really.
He didn't really land one wayor the other on that.
And I just remember thinking Iwant to trust my kids until they
give me a reason not to.
(03:05):
And so the rule that I had withmy boys was I just need to know
where you are and who you'rewith.
Where are you and who's withyou?
And so it wasn't that they hada curfew, it's just that they
needed to be accountable to mefor their whereabouts.
And the reason I wanted to knowwho they're with is in case I
(03:28):
couldn't get a hold of them ontheir phone.
I could call the friend thatthey were with right if there
was an emergency or something.
And they were always open andhonest with me hey, I'm going to
a school dance or I've gotmartial arts late tonight or
whatever it was.
And it just didn't seem like abig issue for us at all and
(03:50):
nobody ever took advantage of it.
Sandy Zamalis (03:53):
Wow, that was not the case in my household.
But, that may be also because ofthe more strict nature we had
with curfews.
I don't know, it's hard to tell.
It's one of those chicken andthe egg things right.
It may be that you have kidsthat are just really good at
complying with reasonablerequests and you may have
(04:17):
children that want to push everyboundary they have as far as
they can push it, and sometimesit has nothing to do with your
parenting.
It's how they're wired and youhave to navigate that with each
child individually.
I know we definitely had tonavigate it differently with my
son than we did my daughter.
My daughter was much easier interms of we knew where she was,
(04:38):
we knew what was going on,whereas my son was just
constantly trying to seek thatindependence in ways that
weren't best, that didn't servehim best.
So we were constantly having toreign him in with love to try
to get him to understand that wehad his safety in mind and to
(04:59):
trust us a little bit.
Dr. Amy Moore (05:00):
Was anything successful there?
What worked?
Sandy Zamalis (05:03):
For my son.
That's a great question.
In hindsight I would say whatworked is just the constant
conversation that we had.
We just constantly tried tohave open conversation and
constantly negotiating whenboundaries were crossed and
tried some consequences, butthose weren't always successful.
(05:24):
I would say we were moresuccessful when we were able to
converse and really treat him asan autonomous person that could
have some say.
But sometimes we had to haveconsequences because the
boundary lines were egregiouslycrossed.
It's a dance.
I don't know that there was oneparticular thing that we did
(05:45):
really well, but we have a greatrelationship with both our kids
and even as adults, and I thinkhaving that open communication
is where it has to be.
You have to continue to adjustand it may be we were being
unreasonable sometimes.
We weren't always right.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:07):
Yeah, and I think sometimes we get into that
mindset of I'm the parent and Isaid you needed to do this and
disobeyed me.
Therefore there must be aconsequence.
And I think that my advice toparents who are sitting in that
spot would be to adopt aproblem-solving approach,
because ultimately you want tosit back and go.
(06:28):
What is the purpose of a curfew?
The purpose of a curfew, in mymind, is not to just have an
arbitrary rule.
It's for safety, your kid'ssafety.
It's so that your kid getsenough sleep so that they can
function in school and in sportsor whatever activity they
(06:49):
participate in.
And you could argue that it'sfor your sleep too right, if
you're one of those parents thatdoesn't go to sleep until your
kids get home.
And then it's for self-controland self-regulation right, that
ability to manage your time welland to make good decisions.
So sleep, safety andself-regulation right, that
ability to manage your time welland to make good decisions.
So sleep, safety andself-control, all right.
So if you buy into that ideathat's the reason that you have
(07:12):
a curfew and not just becauseyou think you should set one
Then you have to look at okay,my child did not meet their
curfew.
Right, they stayed out two hourslate.
They did not call, I did notknow who they were with, and so
this is how I would handle it,and, as a psychologist and
parent coach, this is the typeof advice that I would give.
(07:33):
All right, your kid gets homelate, you hug and kiss them and
say I'm glad you're home safe,and I'll talk to you in the
morning, because nothing goodhappens in an argument at 2 am
Nothing, that's true.
You're exhausted, they'reexhausted, and it's just not
(07:55):
worth it, right?
And the reality is you need toget back to bed.
The longer you stay up, theworse it becomes.
So then, I think the next day,in a calm state, you say I
noticed you had a hard time lastnight getting in on time, so
let's talk about what happened,give them an opportunity to
explain, and then I wouldprobably say something like
(08:19):
because it was so hard for youto make it by 1130, I wonder
what it would look like if werolled that back to 11, since
you were pretty successfulgetting home by 11 the last few
times.
Something like that.
You'll get a little bit ofpushback, but it's not a okay.
You're grounded for two weeks,right, it's.
(08:39):
Maybe we need to just tightenthe reins a little bit.
Let you experience some successand then loosen those up again.
Sandy Zamalis (08:49):
Yeah, I like that approach, especially the let's
talk about it in the morningwhen, as a parent, your fight
flight freeze is going to calmdown, Because, if you're like me
, you've imagined all the worstcase scenario things that could
have happened to them.
I do think it's interesting nowwith smartphones, because it's
(09:13):
so much easier to helicopterthem in a way, because you can
track their whereabouts, right.
Yeah, because you can trackthem.
There's apps where you can knowexactly where they are, how
fast they're driving.
You can.
There's apps where you can knowexactly where they are, how
fast they're driving.
It's just so many intrusivethings that, as a parent, it can
be helpful.
But at the same time, I havethis like weird catch 22 with it
(09:35):
because, like my parents knewnone of those things about me, I
turned out okay.
Having that much knowledge is alittle bit hurtful, I think.
From a parenting perspective,it's almost too much information
and it doesn't foster trust,like you were explaining a
little bit earlier.
You have to be able to trustthem that they are at the place
(09:58):
they said they were going to beand they're who they said they
were going to be with.
They said they were going to bewith.
So what would be some tips youwould have for parents in that
case, where we've got all ofthis technology now that can
help us but at the same time Ithink it hurts us.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:11):
Yeah.
So I think it goes back to whatis the purpose.
What do you see as the purposefor putting one of the tracking
apps or using one of thetracking apps on your kid's
phone is the purpose so that youcan try to control their every
movement?
Then I would question why doyou feel the need to control
(10:36):
their every movement?
That's probably the biggerissue there.
But if it goes back to safety,then do you need to track their
every movement?
Or if you've had a conversationwith them hey, where are you
going and who are you going tobe with, and about what time
should I expect you to be home?
Then it becomes oh, they saidthey'd probably be home around
(10:59):
10 and it's now 1030.
I might just pop that up andsee if they're on their way, and
I think that's okay.
But watching their whereaboutsall night to make sure they're
where they said they were goingto be is more a reflection on
your ability to trust themrather than their ability to
(11:22):
earn trust.
Sandy Zamalis (11:25):
Right and it mirrors our anxiousness.
I think really.
Dr. Amy Moore (11:29):
But I think it feeds it too.
It feeds it For sure.
Yeah, I don't think that'shelpful at all and under no
circumstances would I recommendtracking your child's every
movement, because if you feelthe need to track your child's
every movement, then there's abigger trust issue there.
Right, right that should yourchild be alone, if you feel like
(11:52):
you have to track them thewhole time.
Sandy Zamalis (11:55):
Do you think it like sets kids up for issues on
the dating side of things too, Idon't know.
It's like you're modeling thisweird security mindset where
you're just constantly a voyeurover someone's whereabouts and
then you get into the datingworld and then all of a sudden
you're then taking that samemodel and applying it to this
(12:18):
new person in your life,wondering where are you?
Dr. Amy Moore (12:21):
You mean tracking your boyfriend.
Yeah, yes, exactly, yeah, yeah.
So it's really interesting.
That mindset is reallyinteresting because for you and
I, we didn't have that.
No, not at all.
Right, either they called us orthey didn't.
Like we sat by the phone, wecouldn't even carry our phone in
(12:43):
our pocket.
Right, it is a new world.
Yeah, yeah, my kids shared theyall have Life360, sharing with
their significant others thatthey chose to do for one another
, and then that way they couldsee oh, they're stopping at the
(13:04):
Thai restaurant to bring takeoutover.
So I'm going to see if they'reon their way, if they've picked
it up yet, how far out they are.
And so I think that if you useit in a hey, I'm just checking
real fast, since we have plans,or, oh my goodness, they were
supposed to be here an hour anda half ago and I can't get in
touch with them, let me makesure they're not in a ditch
(13:24):
somewhere, just like you woulddo as a parent, right, or a
spouse Right, or a spouseExactly I think that's okay, but
that's not okay if you'retracking their whereabouts
because you don't trust them.
Because if you have to tracktheir whereabouts because you
don't trust them, is that theright relationship for you.
Sandy Zamalis (13:43):
I saw this whole video meme this week where a
husband was talking about.
You're at that stage inmarriage where you absolutely
are tracking your whereaboutsbecause you can't remember where
you are half the time.
You need your wife to guide youhome.
But my husband and I sharethrough.
We have iPhones so you can findmy friend or whatever through
(14:06):
your iPhone and even to this day, like he'll track and see if
I'm on my way home so he'll knowwhen to put dinner in or he
travels for work.
So this morning he texted me.
He made it to the office but Iknew that because that he made
it because he left really early.
It was just one of those things.
Yeah, I'm with you, though Ijust wonder if it doesn't feed
(14:27):
that neurotic kind of anxiety,though, like we really don't
need to know that muchinformation about others, even
our kids.
Like we have to learn how totrust others to do what they say
they're going to do.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:43):
And again, I know I keep harping on this, but if
we don't trust our loved ones,then we have some problem
solving to do, regardless of therelationship, which is a
different episode.
Yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (15:00):
So for kids that really struggle with this you
talked about maybe walking thecurfew back a little bit.
What are some other ideas forconsequences or ways to reshape
that curfew discussion?
That aren't things like takingthings away I know we've talked
about it on the show before.
Like taking their phone away isnot a good idea, especially for
(15:22):
teenagers.
I know people will push back onthat.
They don't like that as arecourse.
But what are some other toolsin our toolbox that we could put
into play?
Dr. Amy Moore (15:39):
Yeah, it's interesting, I do want to sit
there for a second.
We did get some pushback on myrecommendation not to use the
phone as punishment, because thenumber one buffer against
mental health crisis for teensis a connection, and so if we
remove their ability to beconnected to a good friend or
their boyfriend or girlfriend,then we disrupt that connection
(15:59):
and that could have an impact onmental health.
And so to choose something elseto use as a consequence.
And so we did get some pushbackon that.
That seemed out of touch withcurrent advice, and so I dug
into some of the most recentresearch on that, which indeed
supports letting teens beconnected to their friends as a
(16:24):
way to promote mental health,and so I stand by that.
And it would have taken a lotof disconfirming evidence for me
to change my mind on thatrecommendation.
But I did want to do some duediligence and say, ok, have I
missed something new in theresearch?
But what I found was theresearch still continued to
(16:45):
validate that recommendation.
So you have to do you as aparent.
But that is my recommendationis not to use the phone as a
consequence.
Now that does not mean youshould not put limits on social
media.
You can absolutely put limitson social media.
I am talking about not puttinglimits on 888-555-1212 to reach
(17:07):
their best friend, that's what.
I'm saying I don't think that'sa real number, by the way.
I hope not.
I hope that's not a real number.
I was just saying that as anexample of just the phone.
Okay, what was the question?
Sandy Zamalis (17:19):
What other tools can a parent apply in these
scenarios where you've got achild who is pushing past those
boundaries and having troublewith something like a curfew?
Dr. Amy Moore (17:33):
So I love Dr Ross Green's approach to putting
behaviors in differentcategories, so putting behaviors
in a non-negotiable category, anegotiable category and a let
it go category.
And when he wrote his originalbook the Explosive Child back in
the 80s, he called them baskets, and so basket A, basket B and
(17:56):
basket C, all right.
So I think that I would look atagain what is your purpose for
curfew?
And if the purpose for curfewis safety and that is the
primary purpose then I wouldargue that safety goes in the
non-negotiable category.
It's non-negotiable that youhave to be safe, and so if that
(18:19):
is the case, then maybe youparent with consequences.
I just am a firm believer thatmost things are negotiable and
that safety is relative right.
Is it because you're afraidsomething might happen or is it
a real risk that you're tryingto prevent from happening?
(18:42):
Right, and a lot of times it'sjust parents being afraid
something might happen andliving in the what-ifs and that
gray area is a slippery slope.
So I would look at myself firstas a parent what do I want from
this?
And I would also look at howmuch arguing am I willing to do
(19:05):
over this and to what cost to myrelationship with my child?
At what cost to therelationship with my spouse?
If, at what cost to therelationship with my spouse?
If my spouse doesn't agree withme, right, we have to let go of
that whole.
Kids need curfews, okay, do they?
My recommendation is to beflexible, based on the activity
(19:26):
and instead of driving a hardline in the sand.
Your curfew is exactly 11 pmand if you show up at 1101, you
get a consequence that is sohard to impose, it's so hard to
enforce and it invites conflict.
If you just choose it based onthe activity and the day and who
(19:48):
they're with, then there's roomto negotiate and there's room
for you to speak into that.
Hey, I am not comfortable withyou being out until 2 am because
it's New Year's Eve and thereare a lot of drunk people
driving on the roads.
Let's talk about what thiswould look like.
What do you think is reasonable?
And put the power back in yourchild's lap.
That builds relational equity.
(20:09):
Anytime that we can give ourkids power and control, wow,
does that go a long way?
Right?
But you're just loosening thereins by doing that, and that's
a problem-solving approach.
You're teaching them ways toregulate themselves, right?
Okay, what is reasonable?
Sandy Zamalis (20:28):
I love you pointed it out, but I had a
little like quick phrase that I,when my kids were younger,
especially during their teenyears and I know I've mentioned
it before but it was ruleswithout relationship lead to
rebellion, and I would just gothrough that mantra and I think
it's still true, no matter theirage.
But it's just like what youhighlighted, that relationship
(20:51):
is the key.
It is the number one thing tofocus on and if you're in a
battle, especially if you're ina rebellion battle, you have to
look at that relationship pieceand figure out if there's a
problem there first, before youcan fix the boundary issue.
Like you've got to deal withthat relationship piece first.
(21:11):
Something's happening therethat's causing that rebellion.
It could be that we're beingtoo strict and we're not taking
their concerns or wants andneeds into consideration and
there needs to be some morewiggle room.
But that was, I think, alife-saving little phrase that
helped us.
Rules without relationship leadto rebellion.
(21:34):
So that's a fun, easy littlephrase, and when my husband
would get into his like militarykind of mindset, I would be
like and he would oh yeah, hewould go through that with me
because it is just really hard,especially if you in general are
a more structured human, likeyou're just someone that really
(21:56):
craves that structure and wantseverything to be in alignment,
like that all the time.
Having to deal with thatrelationship piece is always
tricky.
It's always hard, especially ifyou just want to lead and get
them to follow, get thosechildren to follow.
But sometimes you've got tokind of open up, widen the net a
(22:19):
little bit so that they canstill operate and practice their
own leadership in their ownlives as well.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:27):
Absolutely, and we're talking about kids who are
either going to leave forcollege or leave the nest in
some other way right when theybecome adults, and so if we've
done all of the deciding forthem, then they're going to have
a really hard timeself-regulating.
But when we can involve them inthat process, why do you think
(22:51):
that was not such a greatdecision?
Or what do you think is areasonable time for you to be
home?
Or, hey, what are the stepsthat you're going to take to
ensure that you're safe tonight?
Those are things that they'regoing to need to be thinking
about for the rest of theirlives.
And if we're just imposing thisarbitrary timeline okay, you
have to be home by 11 and not1101, not 1107, then that
(23:14):
doesn't teach themself-regulation.
All right, let's talk aboutwhat would we like to talk about
?
Do you want to talk aboutdriving or dating?
Sandy Zamalis (23:26):
Ooh dating.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:29):
Dating.
Sandy Zamalis (23:30):
We alluded to it.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:31):
Yeah, so that's a good segue into it.
Okay, so when did you let yourkids start dating?
How old were they?
Sandy Zamalis (23:40):
I don't know that we had a rule on that, believe
it or not.
We didn't have an age, becausesome of it's just cutesy,
relational things, and wehomeschooled for quite a few
years.
So my son was in 10th grade andmy daughter was in eighth grade
, before they went into publicschool and so dating when they
(24:01):
were younger and before they gotlicenses and all that kind of
stuff was dictated more aboutwhere they were in clubs or my
son was on the swim team.
So they all dated each other onthe swim team, but they saw
each other at swim practice andan occasional weekend event.
It wasn't anything major.
(24:22):
Yeah, we didn't have any hardand fast rules on it.
How about you guys?
Yeah, we didn't either.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:29):
I will say I am a parent of three boys and I know
maybe there are moreconsiderations that go into
deciding that age for girls.
At least some parents do.
And again, is that a safetychoice?
Probably kids were the same.
(24:53):
They went out in groups inmiddle school.
They went out in groups even asfreshmen in high school.
I don't think that my boysactually started dating
one-on-one until they weredriving, which makes sense,
right?
You're not alone if you don'tknow how to drive, really,
because somebody is driving youto see one another.
So it's usually a parent or aparent driving a group of kids.
(25:18):
But the American Academy ofPediatrics recommends 16, age 16
.
So they say groups at age 14and 15 that really give kids an
opportunity to learn the socialnuances of talking to people
that they might be interested indating later and so going out
(25:40):
in groups at 14 or 15, but thereis this big jump in maturity
that happens.
There's a big jump between 14and 16.
And, yeah, the AAP guidance isnot allowing single dating
before age 16.
That's their generalrecommendation.
I would say that there areexceptions.
You could have a pretty mature15-year-old who would be okay to
(26:03):
go to a movie on a date.
But you could also have a veryimmature 17-year-old who would
not be okay to go to a movie ona date.
So I think you have to knowyour child too.
Sandy Zamalis (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, I just always encouraged my kids
to have lots of friends.
I think that's really what Ifeel like they grew the most in.
I think those friend groups arejust so important in navigating
lots of hard things.
Just so important andnavigating lots of hard things,
but also just friendships ingeneral, just being able to have
(26:36):
a friendship with and have todeal with things that are
uncomfortable conversations, notalways agreeing all the time.
There's definitely a lot ofgrowth that happens in those
group friendships and dating, Ithink, especially for girls, can
be isolating.
So for my daughter, I justreally wanted her to try to
(26:59):
maintain a large group offriends as long as she possibly
could.
And that may just be because Iknow in my head that's what
happened to me when I was inthose teenage years I would lose
friendships because you'd startdating and then you were
single-minded, single-focused,and then, when it didn't work
out, you're trying to come backto friendships that may or may
(27:21):
not be there because youneglected them when you were
solely focused on this otherhuman.
So I just wanted her to try tobalance that a little bit better
.
So I tried to encourage that asmuch as I could.
Dr. Amy Moore (27:43):
Yeah, what do you say to parents who view the
dating process as courtship andso really impose strict
guidelines on their kids becausethey view it as courtship for
marriage?
Sandy Zamalis (27:51):
Oh, that's a hard one.
I've definitely been in thosecircles.
It wasn't our mindset, though,so I mostly listened to those
parents and gave them that grace.
That's how they wanted to raisetheir kids.
Put it in the same bucket asknowing what you want to be when
you grow up, though.
When you're at that age, knowingthat's the person that you're
(28:15):
going to spend the rest of yourlife with at 16 is a very tall
task.
So for me it was stressful tothink about it because, again,
that same career mindset,thinking that they're in
everything, seems like I have todecide right now, and my whole
fate is in this decision.
So, whether it be dating orschool choices or career choices
(28:40):
, I think it's just better tohelp our children know that
they're on a journey and that ifyou are a Christian and you're
thinking about dating andmarriage and that courtship kind
of mindset, I always just triedto reiterate to both my kids
that they would know when theyknew it would be clear and
obvious to them that this is thepartner, that this is the
person that they were meant tomarry, because all the pieces
(29:04):
would fall together.
It would feel like God's handwas on it.
Dr. Amy Moore (29:09):
Yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure to put
on a 16-year-old.
If you have the courtshipmindset, I think it's a lot of
pressure on both of them reallyto think oh no, if I break up
with them, my girlfriend's momis going to think how horrible,
because she was expecting me tocourt her daughter through the
(29:33):
whole marriage process.
I just think that's way, waytoo much pressure.
Sandy Zamalis (29:40):
I have fallen guilty of putting that kind of
pressure on my kids, especiallywhen they dated someone I really
liked for various reasons.
Dr. Amy Moore (29:47):
Yes.
So do not fall in love withyour child's first girlfriend or
boyfriend.
Don't do it, because it's justas painful for you as it is for
them when they break up.
I felt like I lost a daughterwhen my oldest broke up with his
first girlfriend, because I hadwelcomed her into our family.
(30:13):
We became friends with herparents, so we did things with
her, and so it was devastating.
I think I was more upset whenthey broke up than he was, and
so I mourned that loss, and thenit was hard for me to re-engage
with the other subsequentgirlfriends right, because I was
(30:33):
protecting my own heart, and soI might've come across as a
little cold in the beginning,because I didn't want to
experience that kind of lossagain, right?
So that would be.
My encouragement is just to beaccepting and warm, just like
you would be to any other friendthat your child brings home,
(30:55):
but don't fall in love.
Sandy Zamalis (30:57):
It's such a funny thing because it's definitely a
conversation no one has from aparenting perspective of hey,
get to know the person, welcomethem, be kind and generous with
them, but then you also have tolet them go if they end up
leaving.
And it is.
It's a weird.
It's a weird headspace to be in.
(31:19):
In fact, both my kids are oldernow, they're in their later
twenties, and because they'renot in my home anymore, I think
it's harder when they're in yourhome, because then the person's
at your house all the time.
But now that they have theirown spaces, they have their own
lives.
My one request to my kids isthat at this point in the game I
(31:40):
honestly I'm happy to meettheir friends, but I don't want
to meet any significant othersunless they're really thinking
that this might be the person.
Because of that, because I do,I fall in love with them.
Because of that, because I do,I fall in love with them.
So I want the chance to fall inlove with them and get to know
them and support and be theircheerleader throughout the
process, and I can't do that ifI feel like I'm being yanked in.
(32:03):
I'm sure there's probably apodcast just on that topic in
general, somewhere, I think so Ithink we should do an episode
on what do those boundaries looklike?
Dr. Amy Moore (32:15):
How involved should we be in our adult
children's relationships?
Who gets to decide thoseboundaries and then how do we
navigate those?
Because that's an issue forparents of adult children and
their significant others, forsure, and I've had to learn that
.
Sandy Zamalis (32:33):
I think the hard way, but I think we're going to
stick to adolescents and teenstoday, since that is and when
they're in your house andthey're there hanging out
watching movies, eating dinnerregularly, it's just a good idea
to be mindful that this mightbe a transient person and that
you should just show them loveand grace, but not fall in love
(32:57):
with them.
Dr. Amy Moore (32:58):
Exactly.
So let's talk about do kidsneed a chaperone?
Right?
So how do you feel about teensbeing in the basement hanging
out watching a movie together,alone, With no one in the house?
No, If you're upstairs andthey're in the basement, where
you know, in the media room,watching a movie.
Sandy Zamalis (33:20):
Our rule in our house was that people could be
over.
They could, but doors had to beopen.
Yep.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:25):
That was our rule .
The door had to be open.
Sandy Zamalis (33:28):
Yeah, and that was we.
Kept it super simple.
That way, again, I think youwant to be welcoming to people
in your house and, again, trust,building trust and relationship
and just making sure your kidsknow what the boundaries of the
house are.
It's just really important.
But, yeah, just that was ourrole.
(33:49):
We did not chaperone them inevery way.
If they have siblings, thatcomes in handy.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:58):
Especially younger ones.
What's she doing?
Are you going to kiss her Go?
Sandy Zamalis (34:01):
see if your brother wants popcorn.
Exactly.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:04):
Yeah, no, we had the exact same rule that doors
had to be open, and I think thatit's super important to have
had the conversations leading tohow we respect the person that
we're dating.
Like that you have to haverespect for the person that
(34:25):
you're dating and that meansrespecting that person's body,
respecting that person'spersonal boundaries and personal
space and chastity and whatevertheir values are and your
values are, like you have tohave respect.
And so if you've had thoseconversations all along, then
saying, hey, the rule is thedoor needs to be open, then that
(34:46):
makes sense, right, becauseyou're not violating.
You're not violating thatboundary anyway, so it doesn't
matter that the door has to beopen.
Sandy Zamalis (34:53):
Yeah, and kids are going to find a way.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:58):
Absolutely.
If that's the choice thatthey're going to make, then your
rule of having the door opendoes not mean they can't go be
in a car somewhere, or in thewoods or wherever kids find to
do things.
Sandy Zamalis (35:08):
It's just holding that space for them to practice
that trust with you, practicethat respect for their partner,
not being necessarily afraid tocome talk to you if things don't
go perfectly well.
You've got to give them room tofigure those things out
(35:29):
Absolutely, and I just wasalways a believer.
I'd rather have them in myhouse.
I would rather my house be thesafe place to come hang out at
all times.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:38):
Yeah, my house be the safe place to come hang out
at all times.
Yeah, yeah, and I think that wewere super careful to not
impose our wishes for theirrelationships on them, right,
because I wanted them to be ableto come and talk to me if they
had questions, if they neededadvice, if they were wrestling
with something.
Because if I share hey, this isthe way I think relationships
(36:02):
should look and then somethingdeviates from that, then that
would make it harder for my kidsto come talk to me.
For example, if I said I wantyou to save yourself for
marriage, because that's whatrelationships look like, and if
I had a child who decided not tosave himself for marriage or
(36:24):
was considering not savinghimself for marriage and wanted
to talk about that, if I hadalready drawn a hard line in the
sand, then he might not feelsafe coming to me.
And so this was a completelyhypothetical example, it just
popped into my head.
So I think that we have to besuper careful how we define what
(36:47):
everything should look like sothat they feel safe coming and
talking.
Sandy Zamalis (36:52):
Yeah, it's interesting when your kids start
to date.
I think it gives you aninteresting mirror as to what
you have modeled and what youhaven't modeled.
As a parent, I know I think Igrew up in the generation where
I honestly never saw my parentsfight.
I never saw them battleanything out, and I definitely
modeled that with my kids aswell.
(37:14):
I shielded them a lot from anydiscussions that my husband and
I had.
We didn't include them in those.
In fact, the joke in our housediscussions that my husband and
I had, we didn't include them inthose.
In fact, the joke in our housewas that my husband, michael,
and I were one.
So they would, because it wouldkeep them from trying to
triangulate.
Go ask mom, go ask dad.
So whatever dad said, that'swhat mom's going to say, because
dad and I are one.
But it didn't.
(37:36):
Yeah, I found out when my kidsstarted dating, especially in
the teen years.
We hadn't modeled really wellsome of those hard conversations
, or I know there was an actualfear that my daughter had
expressed to us that there's nodivorce in our family.
Not because that's a rule, it'sjust that no one's gotten
divorced.
So it's this long lineage ofperfect marriages and I put
(38:01):
quotes up for those who aren'twatching.
Not perfect, but everything'sbehind closed doors and so not
opening that discussion up formy kids, I felt was a really
hard place for my daughter to bein, because she just gave her
so much burden to think I'mnever going to be able to meet
someone because I had an issuewith this particular person.
(38:23):
And what does that mean for me?
How do you guys, how have youbeen able to stay married this
long?
You guys never fight.
Like all of those thingsstarted to bubble up and it was
like well, no timeout, let'stalk about this Absolutely, we
fight.
And so it forced me, when theydid start dating which I think
was a good thing to open up thatrelational conversation with my
(38:47):
kids that I wouldn't have had,that was respectful and just
shared.
This is how dad was thinking,this is how I was thinking, this
is how we compromise.
It just gave that nice windowof conversation for them and
hopefully took the burden off.
I hope it took the burden offfor them that life is a long
journey and a ride and, again,take your time to find the right
(39:10):
partner.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:11):
Yeah, I love that .
All right, we have time for onemore topic.
Okay, All right, we can talkabout driving, clothing and hair
or allowances versus jobs.
Sandy Zamalis (39:27):
Let's do clothing and hair.
Okay, I feel like that's suchan interesting conversation,
right?
Every decade has its thing, soevery decade has its thing.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:37):
Yeah, I think that.
So our kids a lot of times wellmost of the time use their
clothing and hair choices todefine who they think they are
in this period of time,especially kids who don't go to
school with uniforms.
So this is they're homeschooledor they go to public schools
(39:59):
and they can wear whatever theywant, and so it's a way to
express who they think they areand what their identity is and
the kinds of things that theylike.
And I think we have to bereally careful.
Faces shock, all right, that isthe craziest thing.
(40:23):
I cannot believe you're wearingthat outside the house.
I think we have to be reallycareful to honor their
creativity in their fashionsense.
Sandy Zamalis (40:33):
Agreed.
It's always just so interestingto me because, as fashion
trends come and go, you knowthat's temporary, right.
You know that baggy pants willturn into tight pants, will turn
into plaid pants and all blackpants.
It's just always gonna change.
Having that ability for them tobe, I think, creative is really
(40:57):
important because of thatexpression piece.
I think where I get hung up iswhen and I'm from a Christian
background I am conscious ofdressing modestly.
When we get into the modestdiscussion, though, I get super
uncomfortable, and partly Ithink it's because of my own
upbringing and partly I thinkit's because of my own
(41:21):
upbringing and I'm a largechested individual, and so I
always try to help other parentsand friends see that, like,
what looks good on one person isgoing to look really different
on me, and it's unintentional,and so you might have someone
you're dealing with some bodyissues right Someone who only
feels safe or comfortable orthat they're being modest by
(41:43):
wearing things that are superloose, super baggy.
So you have to think about someof those body issues as well,
because if you get into a modesttype discussion, it can get a
little tricky because you wantpeople to feel confident in
their clothes.
That was a conversation Iremember having with my mom when
(42:04):
I was battling this as ateenager.
She used to tell me if you'vegot it, flaunt it.
But I was not of that mindset,so it was a weird headspace for
me to think that through.
But yeah, you have to be ableto have that open conversation
with your kids.
When you're that age and youdevelop early, it's just like a
(42:24):
constant thing in your world.
Everyone talks about it.
It's always on the table fordiscussion.
Whether it be friends orannoying eighth grade boys, it's
just always a conversation.
Like it's just always aconversation.
So it was just easier to hidein my clothes at that time.
And learning how to beconfident in how you set out in
(42:48):
the world and the clothes youchoose to wear is just really
important and something we allhave to grapple with.
And I don't know that it goesaway as we get older.
I don't know that it goes awayas we get older.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:58):
Sure, I think, especially as women we do
wrestle with, does this dressmake me look fat?
How many times do we askourselves that I get it?
And I think that we have to besuper sensitive to our daughters
, who might have developed early, like you did, and be willing
to have that conversation rightand say hey, I noticed that
(43:23):
you've been wearing baggyclothing.
Are you trying to hide yourbreasts or do you just like to
be comfortable?
Is there anything that I canhelp with in terms of shopping
or choosing fashion right?
Would that have been helpful toyou?
Sandy Zamalis (43:40):
At the time, Maybe I don't know.
It's hard to look back anddecide that Again.
When you're self-conscious as ateen, that can be really tricky
, I know as a parent I would tryto do exactly that.
We'd go shopping together.
I would suggest things.
I wouldn't always win thatconversation, but I do know that
(44:04):
when you go shopping sometimesother people will pull something
out for you that would lookgreat on you, that you never
would have picked for yourself.
We would go back and forth andI tried to be as neutral as
possible and, again, not takeoffense.
I didn't like the item I chosebut, yeah, you got to give them
that power, that space.
(44:25):
I know I will get on myplatform here and share.
I think in my thirties I finallyfound a store that did bra
fittings like really good brafittings with European sizes,
Cause I'm sorry listeners, ifyou're listening American sizes
are terrible.
They do not take into accountall the body shapes that we
(44:47):
women possess.
So I found a store that didthat and so when it was time for
my daughter to wear a bra andthose things I did, I took her
and I got her fitted right away,because I didn't want her to go
through that process with me,Because I think that was part of
the issue for me is thatnothing ever fit.
You couldn't buy a bathing suitthat fit.
You couldn't just grab theundergarments you needed at the
(45:11):
store.
None of them would fit.
That is where you just sit andcry in the dressing room.
It's so frustrating, sit andcry in the dressing room.
It's so frustrating so toactually go somewhere and feel
pretty and it makes you standtaller, Like literally.
My daughter remembers when Iwent because I was in my
thirties and I remember she camewith me and she's like mom, you
just like you just weredifferent afterwards Cause it
(45:32):
just it definitely made you feellike okay, like I feel put
together, Like literallyeverything's in its place.
Dr. Amy Moore (45:40):
I love that you said when it came time for your
daughter to begin wearing a bra,you just automatically went.
And I think that when wenormalize these things, right,
hey, this is what we do.
Hey, this is what we do aswomen.
Right, when it's time to startwearing a bra, we go and we get
fitted, because it's hard tojust choose your own right.
(46:02):
So if we normalize that, sothat, no matter what size breast
you have, right, when it's timeto be fitted for a bra, you go,
be fitted for a bra, and then,as you grow, you may need to it
changes.
Sandy Zamalis (46:15):
Yeah, it changes.
You change through yourlifespan, exactly.
Dr. Amy Moore (46:27):
You have to go.
Imagine if you had been fittedfor your bra at 13 or 14, the
difference it might have made inyour self-esteem or your
fashion choices and all of that.
Sandy Zamalis (46:32):
Yeah, Like in hindsight I would say that would
be something I wish, but Idon't know.
That it was a thing.
Then I thought you just went tothe mall and it's not like I
would even say it's not evenlike your typical Macy's fitting
.
We went to an actual bra shop.
That is their main thing thatthey do and it was life-changing
(46:53):
for me and I hope that it'sdefinitely helped my daughter be
more confident.
So I highly recommend it.
Dr. Amy Moore (47:02):
I think that's great advice.
Yeah, let's talk about boys fora second.
I know that one of my kids wasabout 16 and was going to a job
interview and he got dressed andwas wearing ripped jeans with a
contrasting color underneaththe rips and he was in solid
black, except for these rippedblack jeans with this
(47:24):
contrasting color.
And I remember thinking, oh, wecan't wear that to a job
interview.
And that was on the tip of mytongue, right.
I almost said, well, you can'twear that to a job interview.
And that is not what I said.
I stopped myself and I said isthat what you're wearing today
to a job interview?
And that is not what I said.
I stopped myself and I said isthat what you're wearing today
to your job interview?
And he said yes, and I saidthat is a super cool outfit,
(47:48):
right, but I want to ask yousomething.
Let's assume that the personinterviewing you is my age and
they're super conservative, andthis is a style that they've not
seen or adopted yet themselves,right?
What message do you think itmight send to them if you wear
(48:09):
that to this interview withsomeone old like me?
And he said it just might makeme look more creative than
everybody else being interviewedtoday.
So how do you argue with that?
It's difficult to argue withthat, and so he wore it and got
the job.
Sandy Zamalis (48:30):
So he was right, his personality shown through
Yep.
Dr. Amy Moore (48:36):
Yep, but I think that it's important to have that
conversation because I think hehas remembered a conversation
like that right Every time thathe's gone to have a meeting with
someone older or had a jobinterview.
In your sense that it mightmake a difference.
Sandy Zamalis (48:53):
Yeah, I think it's important to also remember,
as parents, that the world wehave our perception of the world
and how we grew up in the world, but that is not necessarily
the same place that our childrenare right, like you had pointed
out.
(49:14):
Maybe the person is like me,just food for thought, but at
the same time I do think a lotof those rules we had growing up
have just relaxed.
They're just not the same, andso my husband and I are
constantly having thisdiscussion because it rolls over
into so many different areas,but I would say clothes is one
too, even from his business andwhat he does every day.
(49:39):
I'm a business owner, I hirepeople.
Like that notion of what'sappropriate or what dressing
etiquette is really gone anymore.
So we as parents almost need tolet that go as well.
We definitely want to put ourbest foot forward, right, we
want to make sure we show upclean and put together in some
(50:00):
way, but it doesn't necessarilyhave to be that vision of what
is the right power suit orwhatever when we go to a job
interview or if we're justdressing for success.
I think that dressing forsuccess has changed a bit.
It has a lot more wiggle roomchanged a bit.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:21):
It has a lot more wiggle room.
I agree, and I think that,again, relationship is more
important than our genes, forsure, and I think that we could
give the advice pick and chooseyour battles.
But I would like to say, why isthat a battle?
It shouldn't even be a battle,right, that is your child
showing what their identity is,what they believe their identity
to be, and it's a.
It's one area of their liveswhere they have some creative
(50:44):
control and, again, whenever wecan give them power and control,
that builds relational equityand then self-confidence for
them as well.
So I recommend not arguing overfashion.
Probably a good point.
So we need to take a quickbreak and let Sandy read a word
from our sponsor, learningrx.
Sandy Zamalis (51:05):
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some free resources.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:00):
This has been a super fun conversation about
three topics that can createconflict in families raising
teenagers, and so I hope thatsome of our advice and tips
spoke to you today.
If it did, we would love it.
If you would share this episodewith a friend who might be
wrestling with similar struggles, and if you like our show, we
(52:24):
would love it if you would leaveus a five-star rating and
review on Apple Podcasts so thatwe can reach more parents like
you.
You can find us on every socialmedia channel at the Brainy
Moms.
You can find us on the web atthebrainymomscom.
You can also find Sandy atthebraintrainerlady on TikTok,
and we don't have any more smartstuff for you today, so we're
(52:46):
going to catch you next time.
Hi smart moms and dads, welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningRx Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm Dr Amy Moore and I'm herewith Sandy Zamalis, and Sandy
and I were talking about whatare some of those topics that
cause conflict in families whoare raising teenagers, and so we
(00:21):
picked three of those topics totalk about today, and so those
are curfews, dating and clothingand hair choices, teen fashion.
So we're going to talk abouthow they create conflict and
some tips for how to helpresolve some of that conflict
(00:42):
and minimize some of that inyour homes.
Hi Sandy, hi Dr Amy, let's getstarted, all right.
So let's talk about curfews.
Like, it's interesting becauseI considered myself really
flexible when it came to curfewsand I had friends who were
(01:04):
really strict about theircurfews and my mom if I was one
minute late for curfew when Iwas a teenager, I was grounded
for a week.
Sandy Zamalis (01:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's my husband.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:19):
What's his reasoning?
Sandy Zamalis (01:21):
I think some of it for my husband.
That's how he was raised.
The funny story is myfather-in-law used to tell them
all right, you have to be backat the house by 11.
But they didn't have to be inthe house, they just had to be
on the premises.
So my husband would run homeand he would stomp on the front
porch so that they could hearthat he got there and then they
(01:42):
would proceed to talk on thefront porch, but he was there on
the premises.
So I think some of that for himis that upbringing.
And my husband's amilitary-minded guy.
He very much likes orderstructure go to bed at a certain
time, wake up at a certain time.
Everything in his world justoperates that way.
(02:02):
So for the kids, I think forhim it just one.
He definitely came from thebackground of there's nothing
good happening after a certaintime, so you shouldn't be
participating, right.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:16):
That was a very common phrase to hear in the 80s
right.
Sandy Zamalis (02:19):
But also it just gave him peace of mind, because
I'm the one who would getnervous and wait up for them.
He wouldn't necessarily wait upfor them, but at the same time
he definitely wanted thosecurfew rules in place for safety
.
So I think that's where it camefrom for him.
We certainly did battle over itin our house.
(02:39):
If you were more flexible, Idon't know what was it like in
your house.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:45):
So Jeff and I didn't argue over curfews.
He was pretty flexible too.
He grew up pretty flexible Likehis parents didn't give him a
curfew and so he didn't really.
He didn't really land one wayor the other on that.
And I just remember thinking Iwant to trust my kids until they
give me a reason not to.
(03:05):
And so the rule that I had withmy boys was I just need to know
where you are and who you'rewith.
Where are you and who's withyou?
And so it wasn't that they hada curfew, it's just that they
needed to be accountable to mefor their whereabouts.
And the reason I wanted to knowwho they're with is in case I
(03:28):
couldn't get a hold of them ontheir phone.
I could call the friend thatthey were with right if there
was an emergency or something.
And they were always open andhonest with me hey, I'm going to
a school dance or I've gotmartial arts late tonight or
whatever it was.
And it just didn't seem like abig issue for us at all and
(03:50):
nobody ever took advantage of it.
Sandy Zamalis (03:53):
Wow, that was not the case in my household.
But, that may be also because ofthe more strict nature we had
with curfews.
I don't know, it's hard to tell.
It's one of those chicken andthe egg things right.
It may be that you have kidsthat are just really good at
complying with reasonablerequests and you may have
(04:17):
children that want to push everyboundary they have as far as
they can push it, and sometimesit has nothing to do with your
parenting.
It's how they're wired and youhave to navigate that with each
child individually.
I know we definitely had tonavigate it differently with my
son than we did my daughter.
My daughter was much easier interms of we knew where she was,
(04:38):
we knew what was going on,whereas my son was just
constantly trying to seek thatindependence in ways that
weren't best, that didn't servehim best.
So we were constantly having toreign him in with love to try
to get him to understand that wehad his safety in mind and to
(04:59):
trust us a little bit.
Dr. Amy Moore (05:00):
Was anything successful there?
What worked?
Sandy Zamalis (05:03):
For my son.
That's a great question.
In hindsight I would say whatworked is just the constant
conversation that we had.
We just constantly tried tohave open conversation and
constantly negotiating whenboundaries were crossed and
tried some consequences, butthose weren't always successful.
(05:24):
I would say we were moresuccessful when we were able to
converse and really treat him asan autonomous person that could
have some say.
But sometimes we had to haveconsequences because the
boundary lines were egregiouslycrossed.
It's a dance.
I don't know that there was oneparticular thing that we did
(05:45):
really well, but we have a greatrelationship with both our kids
and even as adults, and I thinkhaving that open communication
is where it has to be.
You have to continue to adjustand it may be we were being
unreasonable sometimes.
We weren't always right.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:07):
Yeah, and I think sometimes we get into that
mindset of I'm the parent and Isaid you needed to do this and
disobeyed me.
Therefore there must be aconsequence.
And I think that my advice toparents who are sitting in that
spot would be to adopt aproblem-solving approach,
because ultimately you want tosit back and go.
(06:28):
What is the purpose of a curfew?
The purpose of a curfew, in mymind, is not to just have an
arbitrary rule.
It's for safety, your kid'ssafety.
It's so that your kid getsenough sleep so that they can
function in school and in sportsor whatever activity they
(06:49):
participate in.
And you could argue that it'sfor your sleep too right, if
you're one of those parents thatdoesn't go to sleep until your
kids get home.
And then it's for self-controland self-regulation right, that
ability to manage your time welland to make good decisions.
So sleep, safety andself-regulation right, that
ability to manage your time welland to make good decisions.
So sleep, safety andself-control, all right.
So if you buy into that ideathat's the reason that you have
(07:12):
a curfew and not just becauseyou think you should set one
Then you have to look at okay,my child did not meet their
curfew.
Right, they stayed out two hourslate.
They did not call, I did notknow who they were with, and so
this is how I would handle it,and, as a psychologist and
parent coach, this is the typeof advice that I would give.
(07:33):
All right, your kid gets homelate, you hug and kiss them and
say I'm glad you're home safe,and I'll talk to you in the
morning, because nothing goodhappens in an argument at 2 am
Nothing, that's true.
You're exhausted, they'reexhausted, and it's just not
(07:55):
worth it, right?
And the reality is you need toget back to bed.
The longer you stay up, theworse it becomes.
So then, I think the next day,in a calm state, you say I
noticed you had a hard time lastnight getting in on time, so
let's talk about what happened,give them an opportunity to
explain, and then I wouldprobably say something like
(08:19):
because it was so hard for youto make it by 1130, I wonder
what it would look like if werolled that back to 11, since
you were pretty successfulgetting home by 11 the last few
times.
Something like that.
You'll get a little bit ofpushback, but it's not a okay.
You're grounded for two weeks,right, it's.
(08:39):
Maybe we need to just tightenthe reins a little bit.
Let you experience some successand then loosen those up again.
Sandy Zamalis (08:49):
Yeah, I like that approach, especially the let's
talk about it in the morningwhen, as a parent, your fight
flight freeze is going to calmdown, Because, if you're like me
, you've imagined all the worstcase scenario things that could
have happened to them.
I do think it's interesting nowwith smartphones, because it's
(09:13):
so much easier to helicopterthem in a way, because you can
track their whereabouts, right.
Yeah, because you can trackthem.
There's apps where you can knowexactly where they are, how
fast they're driving.
You can.
There's apps where you can knowexactly where they are, how
fast they're driving.
It's just so many intrusivethings that, as a parent, it can
be helpful.
But at the same time, I havethis like weird catch 22 with it
(09:35):
because, like my parents knewnone of those things about me, I
turned out okay.
Having that much knowledge is alittle bit hurtful, I think.
From a parenting perspective,it's almost too much information
and it doesn't foster trust,like you were explaining a
little bit earlier.
You have to be able to trustthem that they are at the place
(09:58):
they said they were going to beand they're who they said they
were going to be with.
They said they were going to bewith.
So what would be some tips youwould have for parents in that
case, where we've got all ofthis technology now that can
help us but at the same time Ithink it hurts us.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:11):
Yeah.
So I think it goes back to whatis the purpose.
What do you see as the purposefor putting one of the tracking
apps or using one of thetracking apps on your kid's
phone is the purpose so that youcan try to control their every
movement?
Then I would question why doyou feel the need to control
(10:36):
their every movement?
That's probably the biggerissue there.
But if it goes back to safety,then do you need to track their
every movement?
Or if you've had a conversationwith them hey, where are you
going and who are you going tobe with, and about what time
should I expect you to be home?
Then it becomes oh, they saidthey'd probably be home around
(10:59):
10 and it's now 1030.
I might just pop that up andsee if they're on their way, and
I think that's okay.
But watching their whereaboutsall night to make sure they're
where they said they were goingto be is more a reflection on
your ability to trust themrather than their ability to
(11:22):
earn trust.
Sandy Zamalis (11:25):
Right and it mirrors our anxiousness.
I think really.
Dr. Amy Moore (11:29):
But I think it feeds it too.
It feeds it For sure.
Yeah, I don't think that'shelpful at all and under no
circumstances would I recommendtracking your child's every
movement, because if you feelthe need to track your child's
every movement, then there's abigger trust issue there.
Right, right that should yourchild be alone, if you feel like
(11:52):
you have to track them thewhole time.
Sandy Zamalis (11:55):
Do you think it like sets kids up for issues on
the dating side of things too, Idon't know.
It's like you're modeling thisweird security mindset where
you're just constantly a voyeurover someone's whereabouts and
then you get into the datingworld and then all of a sudden
you're then taking that samemodel and applying it to this
(12:18):
new person in your life,wondering where are you?
Dr. Amy Moore (12:21):
You mean tracking your boyfriend.
Yeah, yes, exactly, yeah, yeah.
So it's really interesting.
That mindset is reallyinteresting because for you and
I, we didn't have that.
No, not at all.
Right, either they called us orthey didn't.
Like we sat by the phone, wecouldn't even carry our phone in
(12:43):
our pocket.
Right, it is a new world.
Yeah, yeah, my kids shared theyall have Life360, sharing with
their significant others thatthey chose to do for one another
, and then that way they couldsee oh, they're stopping at the
(13:04):
Thai restaurant to bring takeoutover.
So I'm going to see if they'reon their way, if they've picked
it up yet, how far out they are.
And so I think that if you useit in a hey, I'm just checking
real fast, since we have plans,or, oh my goodness, they were
supposed to be here an hour anda half ago and I can't get in
touch with them, let me makesure they're not in a ditch
(13:24):
somewhere, just like you woulddo as a parent, right, or a
spouse Right, or a spouseExactly I think that's okay, but
that's not okay if you'retracking their whereabouts
because you don't trust them.
Because if you have to tracktheir whereabouts because you
don't trust them, is that theright relationship for you.
Sandy Zamalis (13:43):
I saw this whole video meme this week where a
husband was talking about.
You're at that stage inmarriage where you absolutely
are tracking your whereaboutsbecause you can't remember where
you are half the time.
You need your wife to guide youhome.
But my husband and I sharethrough.
We have iPhones so you can findmy friend or whatever through
(14:06):
your iPhone and even to this day, like he'll track and see if
I'm on my way home so he'll knowwhen to put dinner in or he
travels for work.
So this morning he texted me.
He made it to the office but Iknew that because that he made
it because he left really early.
It was just one of those things.
Yeah, I'm with you, though Ijust wonder if it doesn't feed
(14:27):
that neurotic kind of anxiety,though, like we really don't
need to know that muchinformation about others, even
our kids.
Like we have to learn how totrust others to do what they say
they're going to do.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:43):
And again, I know I keep harping on this, but if
we don't trust our loved ones,then we have some problem
solving to do, regardless of therelationship, which is a
different episode.
Yeah.
Sandy Zamalis (15:00):
So for kids that really struggle with this you
talked about maybe walking thecurfew back a little bit.
What are some other ideas forconsequences or ways to reshape
that curfew discussion?
That aren't things like takingthings away I know we've talked
about it on the show before.
Like taking their phone away isnot a good idea, especially for
(15:22):
teenagers.
I know people will push back onthat.
They don't like that as arecourse.
But what are some other toolsin our toolbox that we could put
into play?
Dr. Amy Moore (15:39):
Yeah, it's interesting, I do want to sit
there for a second.
We did get some pushback on myrecommendation not to use the
phone as punishment, because thenumber one buffer against
mental health crisis for teensis a connection, and so if we
remove their ability to beconnected to a good friend or
their boyfriend or girlfriend,then we disrupt that connection
(15:59):
and that could have an impact onmental health.
And so to choose something elseto use as a consequence.
And so we did get some pushbackon that.
That seemed out of touch withcurrent advice, and so I dug
into some of the most recentresearch on that, which indeed
supports letting teens beconnected to their friends as a
(16:24):
way to promote mental health,and so I stand by that.
And it would have taken a lotof disconfirming evidence for me
to change my mind on thatrecommendation.
But I did want to do some duediligence and say, ok, have I
missed something new in theresearch?
But what I found was theresearch still continued to
(16:45):
validate that recommendation.
So you have to do you as aparent.
But that is my recommendationis not to use the phone as a
consequence.
Now that does not mean youshould not put limits on social
media.
You can absolutely put limitson social media.
I am talking about not puttinglimits on 888-555-1212 to reach
(17:07):
their best friend, that's what.
I'm saying I don't think that'sa real number, by the way.
I hope not.
I hope that's not a real number.
I was just saying that as anexample of just the phone.
Okay, what was the question?
Sandy Zamalis (17:19):
What other tools can a parent apply in these
scenarios where you've got achild who is pushing past those
boundaries and having troublewith something like a curfew?
Dr. Amy Moore (17:33):
So I love Dr Ross Green's approach to putting
behaviors in differentcategories, so putting behaviors
in a non-negotiable category, anegotiable category and a let
it go category.
And when he wrote his originalbook the Explosive Child back in
the 80s, he called them baskets, and so basket A, basket B and
(17:56):
basket C, all right.
So I think that I would look atagain what is your purpose for
curfew?
And if the purpose for curfewis safety and that is the
primary purpose then I wouldargue that safety goes in the
non-negotiable category.
It's non-negotiable that youhave to be safe, and so if that
(18:19):
is the case, then maybe youparent with consequences.
I just am a firm believer thatmost things are negotiable and
that safety is relative right.
Is it because you're afraidsomething might happen or is it
a real risk that you're tryingto prevent from happening?
(18:42):
Right, and a lot of times it'sjust parents being afraid
something might happen andliving in the what-ifs and that
gray area is a slippery slope.
So I would look at myself firstas a parent what do I want from
this?
And I would also look at howmuch arguing am I willing to do
(19:05):
over this and to what cost to myrelationship with my child?
At what cost to therelationship with my spouse?
If, at what cost to therelationship with my spouse?
If my spouse doesn't agree withme, right, we have to let go of
that whole.
Kids need curfews, okay, do they?
My recommendation is to beflexible, based on the activity
(19:26):
and instead of driving a hardline in the sand.
Your curfew is exactly 11 pmand if you show up at 1101, you
get a consequence that is sohard to impose, it's so hard to
enforce and it invites conflict.
If you just choose it based onthe activity and the day and who
(19:48):
they're with, then there's roomto negotiate and there's room
for you to speak into that.
Hey, I am not comfortable withyou being out until 2 am because
it's New Year's Eve and thereare a lot of drunk people
driving on the roads.
Let's talk about what thiswould look like.
What do you think is reasonable?
And put the power back in yourchild's lap.
That builds relational equity.
(20:09):
Anytime that we can give ourkids power and control, wow,
does that go a long way?
Right?
But you're just loosening thereins by doing that, and that's
a problem-solving approach.
You're teaching them ways toregulate themselves, right?
Okay, what is reasonable?
Sandy Zamalis (20:28):
I love you pointed it out, but I had a
little like quick phrase that I,when my kids were younger,
especially during their teenyears and I know I've mentioned
it before but it was ruleswithout relationship lead to
rebellion, and I would just gothrough that mantra and I think
it's still true, no matter theirage.
But it's just like what youhighlighted, that relationship
(20:51):
is the key.
It is the number one thing tofocus on and if you're in a
battle, especially if you're ina rebellion battle, you have to
look at that relationship pieceand figure out if there's a
problem there first, before youcan fix the boundary issue.
Like you've got to deal withthat relationship piece first.
(21:11):
Something's happening therethat's causing that rebellion.
It could be that we're beingtoo strict and we're not taking
their concerns or wants andneeds into consideration and
there needs to be some morewiggle room.
But that was, I think, alife-saving little phrase that
helped us.
Rules without relationship leadto rebellion.
(21:34):
So that's a fun, easy littlephrase, and when my husband
would get into his like militarykind of mindset, I would be
like and he would oh yeah, hewould go through that with me
because it is just really hard,especially if you in general are
a more structured human, likeyou're just someone that really
(21:56):
craves that structure and wantseverything to be in alignment,
like that all the time.
Having to deal with thatrelationship piece is always
tricky.
It's always hard, especially ifyou just want to lead and get
them to follow, get thosechildren to follow.
But sometimes you've got tokind of open up, widen the net a
(22:19):
little bit so that they canstill operate and practice their
own leadership in their ownlives as well.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:27):
Absolutely, and we're talking about kids who are
either going to leave forcollege or leave the nest in
some other way right when theybecome adults, and so if we've
done all of the deciding forthem, then they're going to have
a really hard timeself-regulating.
But when we can involve them inthat process, why do you think
(22:51):
that was not such a greatdecision?
Or what do you think is areasonable time for you to be
home?
Or, hey, what are the stepsthat you're going to take to
ensure that you're safe tonight?
Those are things that they'regoing to need to be thinking
about for the rest of theirlives.
And if we're just imposing thisarbitrary timeline okay, you
have to be home by 11 and not1101, not 1107, then that
(23:14):
doesn't teach themself-regulation.
All right, let's talk aboutwhat would we like to talk about
?
Do you want to talk aboutdriving or dating?
Sandy Zamalis (23:26):
Ooh dating.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:29):
Dating.
Sandy Zamalis (23:30):
We alluded to it.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:31):
Yeah, so that's a good segue into it.
Okay, so when did you let yourkids start dating?
How old were they?
Sandy Zamalis (23:40):
I don't know that we had a rule on that, believe
it or not.
We didn't have an age, becausesome of it's just cutesy,
relational things, and wehomeschooled for quite a few
years.
So my son was in 10th grade andmy daughter was in eighth grade
, before they went into publicschool and so dating when they
(24:01):
were younger and before they gotlicenses and all that kind of
stuff was dictated more aboutwhere they were in clubs or my
son was on the swim team.
So they all dated each other onthe swim team, but they saw
each other at swim practice andan occasional weekend event.
It wasn't anything major.
(24:22):
Yeah, we didn't have any hardand fast rules on it.
How about you guys?
Yeah, we didn't either.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:29):
I will say I am a parent of three boys and I know
maybe there are moreconsiderations that go into
deciding that age for girls.
At least some parents do.
And again, is that a safetychoice?
Probably kids were the same.
(24:53):
They went out in groups inmiddle school.
They went out in groups even asfreshmen in high school.
I don't think that my boysactually started dating
one-on-one until they weredriving, which makes sense,
right?
You're not alone if you don'tknow how to drive, really,
because somebody is driving youto see one another.
So it's usually a parent or aparent driving a group of kids.
(25:18):
But the American Academy ofPediatrics recommends 16, age 16
.
So they say groups at age 14and 15 that really give kids an
opportunity to learn the socialnuances of talking to people
that they might be interested indating later and so going out
(25:40):
in groups at 14 or 15, but thereis this big jump in maturity
that happens.
There's a big jump between 14and 16.
And, yeah, the AAP guidance isnot allowing single dating
before age 16.
That's their generalrecommendation.
I would say that there areexceptions.
You could have a pretty mature15-year-old who would be okay to
(26:03):
go to a movie on a date.
But you could also have a veryimmature 17-year-old who would
not be okay to go to a movie ona date.
So I think you have to knowyour child too.
Sandy Zamalis (26:14):
Yeah, yeah, I just always encouraged my kids
to have lots of friends.
I think that's really what Ifeel like they grew the most in.
I think those friend groups arejust so important in navigating
lots of hard things.
Just so important andnavigating lots of hard things,
but also just friendships ingeneral, just being able to have
(26:36):
a friendship with and have todeal with things that are
uncomfortable conversations, notalways agreeing all the time.
There's definitely a lot ofgrowth that happens in those
group friendships and dating, Ithink, especially for girls, can
be isolating.
So for my daughter, I justreally wanted her to try to
(26:59):
maintain a large group offriends as long as she possibly
could.
And that may just be because Iknow in my head that's what
happened to me when I was inthose teenage years I would lose
friendships because you'd startdating and then you were
single-minded, single-focused,and then, when it didn't work
out, you're trying to come backto friendships that may or may
(27:21):
not be there because youneglected them when you were
solely focused on this otherhuman.
So I just wanted her to try tobalance that a little bit better
.
So I tried to encourage that asmuch as I could.
Dr. Amy Moore (27:43):
Yeah, what do you say to parents who view the
dating process as courtship andso really impose strict
guidelines on their kids becausethey view it as courtship for
marriage?
Sandy Zamalis (27:51):
Oh, that's a hard one.
I've definitely been in thosecircles.
It wasn't our mindset, though,so I mostly listened to those
parents and gave them that grace.
That's how they wanted to raisetheir kids.
Put it in the same bucket asknowing what you want to be when
you grow up, though.
When you're at that age, knowingthat's the person that you're
(28:15):
going to spend the rest of yourlife with at 16 is a very tall
task.
So for me it was stressful tothink about it because, again,
that same career mindset,thinking that they're in
everything, seems like I have todecide right now, and my whole
fate is in this decision.
So, whether it be dating orschool choices or career choices
(28:40):
, I think it's just better tohelp our children know that
they're on a journey and that ifyou are a Christian and you're
thinking about dating andmarriage and that courtship kind
of mindset, I always just triedto reiterate to both my kids
that they would know when theyknew it would be clear and
obvious to them that this is thepartner, that this is the
person that they were meant tomarry, because all the pieces
(29:04):
would fall together.
It would feel like God's handwas on it.
Dr. Amy Moore (29:09):
Yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure to put
on a 16-year-old.
If you have the courtshipmindset, I think it's a lot of
pressure on both of them reallyto think oh no, if I break up
with them, my girlfriend's momis going to think how horrible,
because she was expecting me tocourt her daughter through the
(29:33):
whole marriage process.
I just think that's way, waytoo much pressure.
Sandy Zamalis (29:40):
I have fallen guilty of putting that kind of
pressure on my kids, especiallywhen they dated someone I really
liked for various reasons.
Dr. Amy Moore (29:47):
Yes.
So do not fall in love withyour child's first girlfriend or
boyfriend.
Don't do it, because it's justas painful for you as it is for
them when they break up.
I felt like I lost a daughterwhen my oldest broke up with his
first girlfriend, because I hadwelcomed her into our family.
(30:13):
We became friends with herparents, so we did things with
her, and so it was devastating.
I think I was more upset whenthey broke up than he was, and
so I mourned that loss, and thenit was hard for me to re-engage
with the other subsequentgirlfriends right, because I was
(30:33):
protecting my own heart, and soI might've come across as a
little cold in the beginning,because I didn't want to
experience that kind of lossagain, right?
So that would be.
My encouragement is just to beaccepting and warm, just like
you would be to any other friendthat your child brings home,
(30:55):
but don't fall in love.
Sandy Zamalis (30:57):
It's such a funny thing because it's definitely a
conversation no one has from aparenting perspective of hey,
get to know the person, welcomethem, be kind and generous with
them, but then you also have tolet them go if they end up
leaving.
And it is.
It's a weird.
It's a weird headspace to be in.
(31:19):
In fact, both my kids are oldernow, they're in their later
twenties, and because they'renot in my home anymore, I think
it's harder when they're in yourhome, because then the person's
at your house all the time.
But now that they have theirown spaces, they have their own
lives.
My one request to my kids isthat at this point in the game I
(31:40):
honestly I'm happy to meettheir friends, but I don't want
to meet any significant othersunless they're really thinking
that this might be the person.
Because of that, because I do,I fall in love with them.
Because of that, because I do,I fall in love with them.
So I want the chance to fall inlove with them and get to know
them and support and be theircheerleader throughout the
process, and I can't do that ifI feel like I'm being yanked in.
(32:03):
I'm sure there's probably apodcast just on that topic in
general, somewhere, I think so Ithink we should do an episode
on what do those boundaries looklike?
Dr. Amy Moore (32:15):
How involved should we be in our adult
children's relationships?
Who gets to decide thoseboundaries and then how do we
navigate those?
Because that's an issue forparents of adult children and
their significant others, forsure, and I've had to learn that
.
Sandy Zamalis (32:33):
I think the hard way, but I think we're going to
stick to adolescents and teenstoday, since that is and when
they're in your house andthey're there hanging out
watching movies, eating dinnerregularly, it's just a good idea
to be mindful that this mightbe a transient person and that
you should just show them loveand grace, but not fall in love
(32:57):
with them.
Dr. Amy Moore (32:58):
Exactly.
So let's talk about do kidsneed a chaperone?
Right?
So how do you feel about teensbeing in the basement hanging
out watching a movie together,alone, With no one in the house?
No, If you're upstairs andthey're in the basement, where
you know, in the media room,watching a movie.
Sandy Zamalis (33:20):
Our rule in our house was that people could be
over.
They could, but doors had to beopen.
Yep.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:25):
That was our rule .
The door had to be open.
Sandy Zamalis (33:28):
Yeah, and that was we.
Kept it super simple.
That way, again, I think youwant to be welcoming to people
in your house and, again, trust,building trust and relationship
and just making sure your kidsknow what the boundaries of the
house are.
It's just really important.
But, yeah, just that was ourrole.
(33:49):
We did not chaperone them inevery way.
If they have siblings, thatcomes in handy.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:58):
Especially younger ones.
What's she doing?
Are you going to kiss her Go?
Sandy Zamalis (34:01):
see if your brother wants popcorn.
Exactly.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:04):
Yeah, no, we had the exact same rule that doors
had to be open, and I think thatit's super important to have
had the conversations leading tohow we respect the person that
we're dating.
Like that you have to haverespect for the person that
(34:25):
you're dating and that meansrespecting that person's body,
respecting that person'spersonal boundaries and personal
space and chastity and whatevertheir values are and your
values are, like you have tohave respect.
And so if you've had thoseconversations all along, then
saying, hey, the rule is thedoor needs to be open, then that
(34:46):
makes sense, right, becauseyou're not violating.
You're not violating thatboundary anyway, so it doesn't
matter that the door has to beopen.
Sandy Zamalis (34:53):
Yeah, and kids are going to find a way.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:58):
Absolutely.
If that's the choice thatthey're going to make, then your
rule of having the door opendoes not mean they can't go be
in a car somewhere, or in thewoods or wherever kids find to
do things.
Sandy Zamalis (35:08):
It's just holding that space for them to practice
that trust with you, practicethat respect for their partner,
not being necessarily afraid tocome talk to you if things don't
go perfectly well.
You've got to give them room tofigure those things out
(35:29):
Absolutely, and I just wasalways a believer.
I'd rather have them in myhouse.
I would rather my house be thesafe place to come hang out at
all times.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:38):
Yeah, my house be the safe place to come hang out
at all times.
Yeah, yeah, and I think that wewere super careful to not
impose our wishes for theirrelationships on them, right,
because I wanted them to be ableto come and talk to me if they
had questions, if they neededadvice, if they were wrestling
with something.
Because if I share hey, this isthe way I think relationships
(36:02):
should look and then somethingdeviates from that, then that
would make it harder for my kidsto come talk to me.
For example, if I said I wantyou to save yourself for
marriage, because that's whatrelationships look like, and if
I had a child who decided not tosave himself for marriage or
(36:24):
was considering not savinghimself for marriage and wanted
to talk about that, if I hadalready drawn a hard line in the
sand, then he might not feelsafe coming to me.
And so this was a completelyhypothetical example, it just
popped into my head.
So I think that we have to besuper careful how we define what
(36:47):
everything should look like sothat they feel safe coming and
talking.
Sandy Zamalis (36:52):
Yeah, it's interesting when your kids start
to date.
I think it gives you aninteresting mirror as to what
you have modeled and what youhaven't modeled.
As a parent, I know I think Igrew up in the generation where
I honestly never saw my parentsfight.
I never saw them battleanything out, and I definitely
modeled that with my kids aswell.
(37:14):
I shielded them a lot from anydiscussions that my husband and
I had.
We didn't include them in those.
In fact, the joke in our housediscussions that my husband and
I had, we didn't include them inthose.
In fact, the joke in our housewas that my husband, michael,
and I were one.
So they would, because it wouldkeep them from trying to
triangulate.
Go ask mom, go ask dad.
So whatever dad said, that'swhat mom's going to say, because
dad and I are one.
But it didn't.
(37:36):
Yeah, I found out when my kidsstarted dating, especially in
the teen years.
We hadn't modeled really wellsome of those hard conversations
, or I know there was an actualfear that my daughter had
expressed to us that there's nodivorce in our family.
Not because that's a rule, it'sjust that no one's gotten
divorced.
So it's this long lineage ofperfect marriages and I put
(38:01):
quotes up for those who aren'twatching.
Not perfect, but everything'sbehind closed doors and so not
opening that discussion up formy kids, I felt was a really
hard place for my daughter to bein, because she just gave her
so much burden to think I'mnever going to be able to meet
someone because I had an issuewith this particular person.
(38:23):
And what does that mean for me?
How do you guys, how have youbeen able to stay married this
long?
You guys never fight.
Like all of those thingsstarted to bubble up and it was
like well, no timeout, let'stalk about this Absolutely, we
fight.
And so it forced me, when theydid start dating which I think
was a good thing to open up thatrelational conversation with my
(38:47):
kids that I wouldn't have had,that was respectful and just
shared.
This is how dad was thinking,this is how I was thinking, this
is how we compromise.
It just gave that nice windowof conversation for them and
hopefully took the burden off.
I hope it took the burden offfor them that life is a long
journey and a ride and, again,take your time to find the right
(39:10):
partner.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:11):
Yeah, I love that .
All right, we have time for onemore topic.
Okay, All right, we can talkabout driving, clothing and hair
or allowances versus jobs.
Sandy Zamalis (39:27):
Let's do clothing and hair.
Okay, I feel like that's suchan interesting conversation,
right?
Every decade has its thing, soevery decade has its thing.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:37):
Yeah, I think that.
So our kids a lot of times wellmost of the time use their
clothing and hair choices todefine who they think they are
in this period of time,especially kids who don't go to
school with uniforms.
So this is they're homeschooledor they go to public schools
(39:59):
and they can wear whatever theywant, and so it's a way to
express who they think they areand what their identity is and
the kinds of things that theylike.
And I think we have to bereally careful.
Faces shock, all right, that isthe craziest thing.
(40:23):
I cannot believe you're wearingthat outside the house.
I think we have to be reallycareful to honor their
creativity in their fashionsense.
Sandy Zamalis (40:33):
Agreed.
It's always just so interestingto me because, as fashion
trends come and go, you knowthat's temporary, right.
You know that baggy pants willturn into tight pants, will turn
into plaid pants and all blackpants.
It's just always gonna change.
Having that ability for them tobe, I think, creative is really
(40:57):
important because of thatexpression piece.
I think where I get hung up iswhen and I'm from a Christian
background I am conscious ofdressing modestly.
When we get into the modestdiscussion, though, I get super
uncomfortable, and partly Ithink it's because of my own
upbringing and partly I thinkit's because of my own
(41:21):
upbringing and I'm a largechested individual, and so I
always try to help other parentsand friends see that, like,
what looks good on one person isgoing to look really different
on me, and it's unintentional,and so you might have someone
you're dealing with some bodyissues right Someone who only
feels safe or comfortable orthat they're being modest by
(41:43):
wearing things that are superloose, super baggy.
So you have to think about someof those body issues as well,
because if you get into a modesttype discussion, it can get a
little tricky because you wantpeople to feel confident in
their clothes.
That was a conversation Iremember having with my mom when
(42:04):
I was battling this as ateenager.
She used to tell me if you'vegot it, flaunt it.
But I was not of that mindset,so it was a weird headspace for
me to think that through.
But yeah, you have to be ableto have that open conversation
with your kids.
When you're that age and youdevelop early, it's just like a
(42:24):
constant thing in your world.
Everyone talks about it.
It's always on the table fordiscussion.
Whether it be friends orannoying eighth grade boys, it's
just always a conversation.
Like it's just always aconversation.
So it was just easier to hidein my clothes at that time.
And learning how to beconfident in how you set out in
(42:48):
the world and the clothes youchoose to wear is just really
important and something we allhave to grapple with.
And I don't know that it goesaway as we get older.
I don't know that it goes awayas we get older.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:58):
Sure, I think, especially as women we do
wrestle with, does this dressmake me look fat?
How many times do we askourselves that I get it?
And I think that we have to besuper sensitive to our daughters
, who might have developed early, like you did, and be willing
to have that conversation rightand say hey, I noticed that
(43:23):
you've been wearing baggyclothing.
Are you trying to hide yourbreasts or do you just like to
be comfortable?
Is there anything that I canhelp with in terms of shopping
or choosing fashion right?
Would that have been helpful toyou?
Sandy Zamalis (43:40):
At the time, Maybe I don't know.
It's hard to look back anddecide that Again.
When you're self-conscious as ateen, that can be really tricky
, I know as a parent I would tryto do exactly that.
We'd go shopping together.
I would suggest things.
I wouldn't always win thatconversation, but I do know that
(44:04):
when you go shopping sometimesother people will pull something
out for you that would lookgreat on you, that you never
would have picked for yourself.
We would go back and forth andI tried to be as neutral as
possible and, again, not takeoffense.
I didn't like the item I chosebut, yeah, you got to give them
that power, that space.
(44:25):
I know I will get on myplatform here and share.
I think in my thirties I finallyfound a store that did bra
fittings like really good brafittings with European sizes,
Cause I'm sorry listeners, ifyou're listening American sizes
are terrible.
They do not take into accountall the body shapes that we
(44:47):
women possess.
So I found a store that didthat and so when it was time for
my daughter to wear a bra andthose things I did, I took her
and I got her fitted right away,because I didn't want her to go
through that process with me,Because I think that was part of
the issue for me is thatnothing ever fit.
You couldn't buy a bathing suitthat fit.
You couldn't just grab theundergarments you needed at the
(45:11):
store.
None of them would fit.
That is where you just sit andcry in the dressing room.
It's so frustrating, sit andcry in the dressing room.
It's so frustrating so toactually go somewhere and feel
pretty and it makes you standtaller, Like literally.
My daughter remembers when Iwent because I was in my
thirties and I remember she camewith me and she's like mom, you
just like you just weredifferent afterwards Cause it
(45:32):
just it definitely made you feellike okay, like I feel put
together, Like literallyeverything's in its place.
Dr. Amy Moore (45:40):
I love that you said when it came time for your
daughter to begin wearing a bra,you just automatically went.
And I think that when wenormalize these things, right,
hey, this is what we do.
Hey, this is what we do aswomen.
Right, when it's time to startwearing a bra, we go and we get
fitted, because it's hard tojust choose your own right.
(46:02):
So if we normalize that, sothat, no matter what size breast
you have, right, when it's timeto be fitted for a bra, you go,
be fitted for a bra, and then,as you grow, you may need to it
changes.
Sandy Zamalis (46:15):
Yeah, it changes.
You change through yourlifespan, exactly.
Dr. Amy Moore (46:27):
You have to go.
Imagine if you had been fittedfor your bra at 13 or 14, the
difference it might have made inyour self-esteem or your
fashion choices and all of that.
Sandy Zamalis (46:32):
Yeah, Like in hindsight I would say that would
be something I wish, but Idon't know.
That it was a thing.
Then I thought you just went tothe mall and it's not like I
would even say it's not evenlike your typical Macy's fitting
.
We went to an actual bra shop.
That is their main thing thatthey do and it was life-changing
(46:53):
for me and I hope that it'sdefinitely helped my daughter be
more confident.
So I highly recommend it.
Dr. Amy Moore (47:02):
I think that's great advice.
Yeah, let's talk about boys fora second.
I know that one of my kids wasabout 16 and was going to a job
interview and he got dressed andwas wearing ripped jeans with a
contrasting color underneaththe rips and he was in solid
black, except for these rippedblack jeans with this
(47:24):
contrasting color.
And I remember thinking, oh, wecan't wear that to a job
interview.
And that was on the tip of mytongue, right.
I almost said, well, you can'twear that to a job interview.
And that is not what I said.
I stopped myself and I said isthat what you're wearing today
to a job interview?
And that is not what I said.
I stopped myself and I said isthat what you're wearing today
to your job interview?
And he said yes, and I saidthat is a super cool outfit,
(47:48):
right, but I want to ask yousomething.
Let's assume that the personinterviewing you is my age and
they're super conservative, andthis is a style that they've not
seen or adopted yet themselves,right?
What message do you think itmight send to them if you wear
(48:09):
that to this interview withsomeone old like me?
And he said it just might makeme look more creative than
everybody else being interviewedtoday.
So how do you argue with that?
It's difficult to argue withthat, and so he wore it and got
the job.
Sandy Zamalis (48:30):
So he was right, his personality shown through
Yep.
Dr. Amy Moore (48:36):
Yep, but I think that it's important to have that
conversation because I think hehas remembered a conversation
like that right Every time thathe's gone to have a meeting with
someone older or had a jobinterview.
In your sense that it mightmake a difference.
Sandy Zamalis (48:53):
Yeah, I think it's important to also remember,
as parents, that the world wehave our perception of the world
and how we grew up in the world, but that is not necessarily
the same place that our childrenare right, like you had pointed
out.
(49:14):
Maybe the person is like me,just food for thought, but at
the same time I do think a lotof those rules we had growing up
have just relaxed.
They're just not the same, andso my husband and I are
constantly having thisdiscussion because it rolls over
into so many different areas,but I would say clothes is one
too, even from his business andwhat he does every day.
(49:39):
I'm a business owner, I hirepeople.
Like that notion of what'sappropriate or what dressing
etiquette is really gone anymore.
So we as parents almost need tolet that go as well.
We definitely want to put ourbest foot forward, right, we
want to make sure we show upclean and put together in some
(50:00):
way, but it doesn't necessarilyhave to be that vision of what
is the right power suit orwhatever when we go to a job
interview or if we're justdressing for success.
I think that dressing forsuccess has changed a bit.
It has a lot more wiggle roomchanged a bit.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:21):
It has a lot more wiggle room.
I agree, and I think that,again, relationship is more
important than our genes, forsure, and I think that we could
give the advice pick and chooseyour battles.
But I would like to say, why isthat a battle?
It shouldn't even be a battle,right, that is your child
showing what their identity is,what they believe their identity
to be, and it's a.
It's one area of their liveswhere they have some creative
(50:44):
control and, again, whenever wecan give them power and control,
that builds relational equityand then self-confidence for
them as well.
So I recommend not arguing overfashion.
Probably a good point.
So we need to take a quickbreak and let Sandy read a word
from our sponsor, learningrx.
Sandy Zamalis (51:05):
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spelling performance?
Are you worried your child'sreading curriculum isn't
thorough enough?
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instruction.
They're typically caused byhaving cognitive skills that
need to be strengthened Skillslike auditory processing, memory
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Learningrx one-on-one braintraining programs are designed
(51:29):
to target and strengthen theskills that we rely on for
reading, spelling, writing andlearning.
Learningrx can help youidentify which skills may be
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In fact, we worked with morethan 125,000 children and adults
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We'd like to help you get yourchild on the path to a brighter
(51:50):
and more confident future.
Give LearningRx a call at866-BRAIN-01, visit
LearningRxcom or head to ourshow notes for information and
some free resources.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:00):
This has been a super fun conversation about
three topics that can createconflict in families raising
teenagers, and so I hope thatsome of our advice and tips
spoke to you today.
If it did, we would love it.
If you would share this episodewith a friend who might be
wrestling with similar struggles, and if you like our show, we
(52:24):
would love it if you would leaveus a five-star rating and
review on Apple Podcasts so thatwe can reach more parents like
you.
You can find us on every socialmedia channel at the Brainy
Moms.
You can find us on the web atthebrainymomscom.
You can also find Sandy atthebraintrainerlady on TikTok,
and we don't have any more smartstuff for you today, so we're
(52:46):
going to catch you next time.
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