Are you struggling to launch your adult child? Have you ever found yourself wondering if you're overstepping boundaries with your adult child? Maybe you're caught in the cycle of questioning how often to text them, whether to offer advice, or if you're supporting them the right way? You're not alone.
On this episode of the Brainy Moms podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy talk with Dr. Jack Stoltzfus – clinical psychologist, America's launch coach, and author of "The Parent's Launch Code". Dr. Jack reveals that the transition to adult independence is challenging precisely because "the problem with young adults is they're adults, you can't control them." This fundamental shift requires parents to abandon old power dynamics and embrace a partnership approach.
Dr. Jack explains why this particular parenting stage feels so difficult, sharing eye-opening statistics including that more than 50% of young adults between 18-29 now live with their parents. Rather than viewing this as failure, he redefines successful launching as achieving self-sufficiency and responsibility, regardless of living situation. The real measure of success is whether young adults can stand independently while maintaining a caring bond with parents.
The conversation takes a poignant turn when discussing estrangement – with one in four young adults cutting off communication with parents for months or indefinitely. Dr. Jack offers practical strategies to prevent this heartbreaking outcome, including his innovative "five-year plan" approach that helps young adults envision their future while creating manageable steps toward independence.
Whether you're wrestling with questions about charging rent, setting boundaries when adult children return home from college, or navigating the delicate balance between offering support without enabling dependence, this episode provides compassionate guidance. Dr. Jack's framework of combining unconditional love with what he calls "backbone" (clear values and boundaries) offers a roadmap for maintaining connection while fostering independence. For every parent wondering how to love and launch simultaneously, this conversation is an essential guide to launching your adult child with confidence and care.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:00):
Hi, smart moms and dads, welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningRx Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amy Moore, here with my co-host, Sandy Zamalis, and Sandy and I
are gonna have a conversationwith our guest, Dr.
Jack Stoltzfus.
Dr Jack is a clinicalpsychologist and America's
(00:22):
launch coach.
His mission is to help parentssupport their adult child's
transition to self-sufficientindependence while maintaining a
caring bond with their parents.
His book, The Parent's LaunchCode: Loving and Letting Go of
Our Adult Children is going tobe at the center of our
(00:44):
conversation tonight, so we'resuper excited to welcome Dr.
Jack.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (00:50):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Sandy Zamalis (00:52):
I have been waiting I think three years for
this topic and I'm super excitedto talk about parenting adult
children because I think it'sthe hardest timeframe and it's
hard to scale because it goes onfor so long.
But help us understand how youlanded in this area and this
expertise.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (01:13):
Sure, I was going to say I think it is a
really tough time because, asone of my workshop participants
said, the problem with youngadults is they're adults, you
can't control them, and so theold power and control and
direction thing is just not.
They're adults, you can'tcontrol them, and so the old
power and control and directionthing is just not going to work.
You're going to have to make ashift on that.
But in terms of my background,actually my story goes back to
(01:34):
just some estrangement andstruggles I had with my father
growing up in my teen and youngadult years.
That led me into doing adissertation and trying to
define and describe thedifference, the concept of
differentiation, emotionaldifferentiation of adolescents
from their parents.
(01:56):
And then so I did that work andthen, fast forward to about 11
or 12 years ago, I startedseeing more parents who were
coming to me with concerns abouttheir kids mainly around not
getting traction ondevelopmental tasks that they
needed to pursue, and so Ithought I have this research
background, understanding whatseparation, healthy separation,
(02:19):
is, and then I've got threeyoung adults myself, so I
thought and then I've got threeyoung adults myself, so I
thought maybe I'll justconcentrate on this area.
So I pretty much exclusivelywork with parents of young
adults, involve the young adultsin the process, because I try
to build this partnershipbetween parents and young adults
in the direction of adulthood,how to help them move toward
(02:42):
adulthood.
So that's my background.
I'm a psychologist.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:48):
So I found it interesting in your book that
you said your dissertationadvisor advised against this
topic for your research.
Why was that?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (02:59):
Well, that's the standard line Don't pursue
something that you'reemotionally involved in your
dissertation.
Do something just.
You could care less about somesmall little detail that you
want to pursue or research anddo that.
So it was probably good advice.
It maybe took me longer to dothis, but I think I was.
(03:20):
I felt like I really learnedsomething important to me
personally out of it, so I don'tregret doing it.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:29):
But I think it's not.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (03:30):
it's good advice to not do that.
I think Right.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:34):
I texted Sandy earlier and said I'm going to
have a hard time with thisepisode.
I'm afraid I'm going to crythrough this whole episode
because I have decided I havethree adult sons just launched
the youngest a month ago and Ihave I've decided that this is
by far the hardest season ofmotherhood.
(03:59):
Not the teenage years, not thetoddler years, but this idea of
not knowing how much do theyneed me, how many times a week
should I text them?
Should I give them advice ornot?
It's this constant wrestlingwith.
(04:21):
I don't want to overstep,because I know that my role has
changed now, but at the sametime, I want to make sure they
know that I still love them,that I still care about what
they're doing all day, and soI've just decided that this is
the most challenging season yet.
So I was excited to readthrough your book and to talk to
you, because I know that you'vebuilt an entire practice on
(04:45):
this season for parents, so I'mnot alone in this plight.
And Sandy said the exact samething when she texted me back.
Sandy Zamalis (04:52):
She said you are not alone in this, no, and
there's not enough resources outthere.
Really, it's a very niche areato try to find help in.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (05:01):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, if you do the look atthe Google parents of young
adults versus other parentingthings, there's a very small
percentage of the resources outthere devoted to this and I
think it reflects a bias in ourculture that by the time your
son or daughter's 18 or at least21, you're done parenting, it's
(05:22):
over, so we don't have to doany more parenting.
We all know that isn't true,and there's been this elongation
of young adulthood too.
Now that extends 18 to 29,.
Much different than 50 yearsago where I think it was a
little bit more typical to sayhey, it's 18 years, you're 18
(05:42):
years old, I raised you.
Now kind of hit the road, I'mdone, I did my job, and partly
that I think that is a result ofover time and with my
generation, boomer generation webegan to invest more in the
happiness and success of ourkids than in past generations,
and I think that's continuedinto the Gen X and the
(06:04):
millennial and now the Gen Z'stoo.
So when they're not happy orthey're not successful, we stay
involved.
Maybe we can help some more.
So they may be 20, 21, 22, andwe may stay more involved.
But yeah, it's a challenge.
I talk about the challenge ofletting go and my website's
called parentslettinggocombecause it starts early on.
(06:27):
You have this infant and thenyou're letting go, they're
toddling away and you've got allthese letting go steps along
the way, and I think this one ofletting go into young adulthood
is, in some ways, the hardest,because you're now, they're now
outside of your sphere ofinfluence and and I think what
(06:47):
you were saying, I think Amy istoo how much do you, how much do
you try to be involved and in asupportive way, and how much do
you step back and let go andsay that they have to make their
own decision on that?
One of the challenges is youhear some parents say I don't
give them any advice at all, Ijust step back and don't give
(07:08):
any advice, and I've never beencomfortable with that approach.
I like to give my kids adviceand I think in some ways, they
want to hear that.
But I use this kind of sandwichapproach, which is to say, okay
, I'm going to give you myexperience on this decision you
have to make and some things Iknow about it, but it's your
decision.
I put it right up front, likethat.
(07:29):
Then I give them that.
Here's my advice, here's what Ithink you should consider and
then I say at the end of this itwas a sandwich.
At the end of that is, again,it's your decision.
I'm not going to be mad at youif you don't take my advice.
Do what you need to do, and Ifound that works pretty well.
My kids seem to accept that.
They don't feel like I'mtelling them what to do at that
(07:49):
point.
I'm really operating more likea consultant.
You know we get consultants andI worked at 3M for a number of
years Get consultants, come inthere, they tell you what you
already know and you say thankyou very much, we're not going
to follow your advice.
So it's a good way to try tohit that sweet spot that you're
talking about, amy, of how muchto be involved and how much to
(08:11):
stay back too.
Dr. Amy Moore (08:12):
Yeah, for sure, you talk a lot about
vulnerability and transparency.
How would you apply that tothose particular conversations,
to advice giving?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (08:25):
I think that and I quote Brene Brown in the
book, as when she talks aboutvulnerability as the route to
intimacy and I think parentssometimes hold back on talking
about their own struggles, theirown vulnerability, or even just
I'm worried about you, or I'mconcerned because maybe that
they'd lose some credibility inthat I got to be the one that is
(08:49):
in charge and has it alltogether and all.
But I think it opens up thatchannel of intimacy and, with
relationships being highlyreciprocal, you're more apt to
get more openness coming back toyou from the young adult too.
I say look and I think peoplecan parents can talk about their
own young adult experience,what worked and what didn't work
(09:12):
, and also acknowledge it was adifferent period of time.
Things went differently thenthan they do now and I think
that's an adjustment I have tohelp parents make, that it's a
different period of time now andwhat worked with you may not
work with the parenting approachto young adults now.
Dr. Amy Moore (09:29):
So you talk about .
You quote a statistic that morethan 50% of young adults 18 to
29, are living at home, morethan any time in history in the
United States.
Why?
What's happening?
What's different now?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (09:48):
And that's a statistic that came from the
Pew Research Group back in 2020.
So we're at that COVID period,that pandemic period, so that
influenced that statistic.
Right now it's still 50%, morethan 50% in the 18 to
25-year-old, or 18 to 24,probably closer to 30-some
(10:10):
percent if you're in the 18 to29% right now, but it still is
high.
And there's an attitude orstatistic that 39% of adults
think that kids living at homeis a bad thing, and I would
argue with that point.
But I think it's the kind of aletting go process from both
(10:34):
ends I think parents having alittle harder time letting go
and the young adults, because ofthe parents' involvement, may
have a little harder timeletting go from their end, and
there's some economic issuesright now that clearly play into
this.
The house is out of thequestion for most Gen Zs right
now, and even affordingapartments is difficult, so it
(10:58):
tends to extend the time ofbeing at home.
Maybe I can make some money andbe able to save some money to
move out, which I don't think isa bad thing.
I think there is this bias,though, in our country that if
you're not out of the home byyour early 20s, that's a concern
or the alarm bells go off whenit's 26, 27, 28.
(11:23):
If you go to India, I had thispodcast with this Indian
podcaster and he was saying inIndia, if you're 23, 24, 25,
living outside the home, there'ssomething wrong.
That's a problem, because theyhave this multi-generational
experience and these kids are athome.
(11:43):
20% of couples live with theirparents in India too, so it's a
unique part of our cultures.
So I think it reflects some ofour independence emphasis in our
culture.
Well, you should be on your owntype of thing, but for me, the
litmus test of whether a youngadult is launched or not doesn't
(12:03):
have anything to do with wherethey live.
It has to do with them beingself-sufficient and responsible.
And then I had a little pieceon that's different than, I
think, many of the people thatwrite in this area, and that is
that they have a positiveconnection or caring bond with
their parents, because I'mconcerned about the emotional
(12:24):
part of that separation processtoo, so I put that in there so
they could be living at home.
They've got a job, they'recontributing, maybe paying rent
or helping with cooking meals.
In my opinion, they'reindependent, they're launched.
They don't have to be livingdown the street or something
like that.
Sandy Zamalis (12:43):
One of the other statistics that you had on your
website that I floored Amy withwhen I read it was that one in
four young adults cut offcommunication from their parents
on average for months or someindefinitely, and I definitely
have noticed this trend ofestrangement and it's like I
told Dr Amy it was like mymortal fear.
Dr. Amy Moore (13:06):
So I'm telling her.
I'm like that's lies from Satan.
What are you talking about?
You have a great relationshipwith your kids.
And then she quoted yourstatistic.
No wonder you're afraid of onein four right, yeah, that's a
scary number.
Sandy Zamalis (13:22):
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (13:31):
That's the lower end.
You were being generous.
Yeah, I mean it's.
It's no, that's probablyaccurate, but the they talk
about an average of four monthsand I've read some other
statistics that it's longer thanthat that these young adults
cut off their communication fromtheir parents.
But it's a heartbreakingsituation for parents when that
happens, and sometimes there'sno obvious cause of that and I
(13:53):
don't know if it's the youngadults that want.
I just want to show I can makeit on my own.
I don't have to talk to myparents.
And that probably plays into it,because most of them reconnect
at some time plays into itbecause most of them reconnect
at some time, except some ofthem will just plain cut off for
good, and that's really, like Isaid, heartbreaking for the
(14:13):
parents.
It's a loss for both the youngadult and the parent, because
it's not the way it should be.
You should be able to have thiscaring bond with your young
adult and your young adult withtheir parents, so it's a concern
.
I view my role as workingupstream.
I'm trying to prevent that.
I want to prevent that fromhappening and so far I've been
(14:35):
pretty successful because I workto bring the parents and the
young adult together to work ina partnership way toward this
responsible, self-sufficientindependence, and so they're
working together and so itdoesn't feel like I'm getting
pushed out where there's a bigargument about whether I should
be out or not.
It's really based on the youngadult's plan and the parent
(14:58):
working with them.
And even at times where I've hadparents say look, you're not
accepting the rules of the home.
It may be things like you'restealing from us or you're using
drugs, or there's things thatyou're doing that we just can't
tolerate in the home.
So it looks like you want tolive someplace else.
(15:19):
Let's help you find some placeto live and we'll work with you
and maybe we'll help you withsome money for an apartment
We'll get, I'll give you somefurniture or something.
So that kind of softens thatit's not just like the kid may
say you're kicking me out.
I say no, you're choosing tolive someplace else.
You can live here with if youabide by the rules, but you're
(15:42):
choosing to live someplace elseand let's help that person live
someplace else.
And I think that softens thatkind of sense of rejection that
they might feel.
Sandy Zamalis (15:52):
Do you find that, for the estrangement issue in
particular, that it usuallycenters around boundary issues,
whether it be a parent or theyoung adult just trying to
figure out those more adultrelationship boundary pieces
that need to get put into place?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (16:11):
I think that can be true at times.
I think some young adults maywant to, as part of their
ability to feel like they areindependent, put some very tight
boundaries around how much timeI spend with you, whether
you're helping me or not, whatinformation I give you, what I
(16:32):
tell you about what I'm doing.
So I think that sometimes playsinto their need to kind of
establish that sense of theirseparate, capability to be
separate and be self-sufficient.
So I think you're right in that.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:50):
So I love that you mentioned that it's a choice
right, that you have the optionto live within the boundaries
that we set or to honor theparameters of living here.
And if that doesn't work foryou, so you're either breaking
my house rules, therefore you'rechoosing not to follow them.
(17:14):
I just love the agency that youbring to that, that it isn't
just about the parents makingthese hard and fast rules and
then imposing a consequence ontheir adult child.
Our choices come withconsequences for our entire life
.
Sure.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (17:31):
And it honors their decision, either
verbally to leave or by theiractions to leave.
Okay, we'll support you.
And in that process of tryingto find housing and trying to
find a way that you can be onyour own and I think there's
sometimes it just gets to apoint where it's time to leave
(17:51):
this not working, mean it, maybeit's not the rules, but there's
, it's contentious, it's notgoing well.
Let's try to find a way youcould move someplace or get to
another facility other than ourhouse yeah, I am I laugh because
just a story about art myparticular family.
Sandy Zamalis (18:14):
But so my son graduated college in March of
2020.
So right when COVID hit and hehad to come home and at the time
you couldn't even interview forjobs or anything like that and
he had been away for five yearsin college and my husband my
(18:35):
husband always laid thegroundwork early on that they
were expected to launch.
That was his hard and fast ruleWe'll help you, but you're
expected to go off and do yourthing.
And so when things weren'treally coming together, I
remember my I was having aconversation with my son and he
was just like, if I'm just goingto have to get any job, why
don't I get a job in Reno andlive with my friends?
(18:56):
It doesn't make sense to livehere.
Because I know he felt socontained in our house, like he
could not be free, and I thinkthat was the best thing, the
best decision he could have made, and he drove across the
country and went to live withfriends and we helped him in
that decision.
But but a lot of times familieshave a hard time having those
(19:19):
hard conversations of what'sbest, especially if there's any
fear or anxiety on the parentspart about what's going to
happen.
Do you have suggestions forfamilies having these kind of
launch kinds of conversations?
How do we take our anxiousnessout of the discussion?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (19:38):
And it's unfortunately.
I think the anxiety of parentsis somewhat contagious and the
young adult can feel thatanxiety at times too and that
affects their ability to believein themselves maybe and feel
like they can be successful,because mom and dad seem to be
anxious about whether I can besuccessful or not.
(19:58):
Maybe I can't be.
So it does play into it.
I think that just having verykind of heart-to-heart
discussions about where do youwant to be in five years, I do
this five-year plan with a youngadult.
I figure that's about as farout as they can go.
They say what's your lifetimeplan?
(20:19):
I don't know.
Even five years, I don't know.
But usually they'll come upwith something in five years.
And I always say that theparents are just so relieved
when they say they're not goingto be living at home in five
years, thank you.
But I've never had somebody saythey just want to be living
with mommy and daddy in fiveyears.
It just doesn't happen.
(20:39):
That's what it's kind of wiredup to be independent.
So then we say, okay, let's sayhow are you going to get there?
Usually I'm working with 18 to20, 29 year olds that age group.
But I've worked with a 16 yearold recently.
He's not going to school.
He's just he's just refusing togo to school, telling me I'm
(21:00):
not going to go.
I did a five year plan and he'sgoing to graduate from college
in five years, at 21.
Then I go back and say now,how's that going to work?
We're back to your five-yearplan, but you're not going to
school right now.
How are you going to be able toget there?
So now it becomes somethinglike his decision about whether
(21:23):
he wants to go to school or not,because his five-year plan is
to get to that collegegraduation.
It's not the parents saying whyaren't you going to school?
What's the the matter with youand getting on them and trying
to get him to get up in themorning and all that once it's
part of his plan and he startsthinking, yeah, I guess I'm not
(21:44):
going to get to that collegegraduation if I don't get to
school.
So I really believe in workingoff the young adult's plan.
And the parents sometimescringe.
When in five years, I want tobe a tattoo artist, parents are,
oh geez something like that heyyoung adults change jobs seven
times during their 20s.
So I tell them that this tooshall pass.
(22:06):
Things will change.
So let's just get behind himand talk about how you can
support him in terms of whatyou'll do to support that plan,
but also what you won't do,because he or she needs to stand
on her own.
And then, if there'sexpectations around the home to
be clear about those as part ofthe five year plan, then too.
But I used to get sucked intothe domestic disputes.
(22:31):
I used to get sucked into thedomestic disputes.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:33):
You get pulled in and they're just arguing.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (22:41):
He's playing video games or he doesn't buzz
his dishes back from his roomand he's just they're just
arguing.
If you get into that, then it'slike the police going into a
domestic dispute.
You're going to get hit by bothpeople, probably.
So if you try to represent theyoung adult, the parents are
irritated with you.
If you try to represent theparents, the young adult doesn't
want to hear from you.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:59):
Okay, let's talk about.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (23:01):
Let's point to the future, let's talk about
this five-year plan and it'syour plan, the young adult,
because it's your life.
At this point, parents can'ttell you what to do anymore, so
it's your life, and then try toget the parents to come around
that and to support that, andthat really seems to be working
pretty well, that kind ofapproach.
Sandy Zamalis (23:21):
Do you think our school system lacks that ability
to do that, though, to reallyhelp kids who don't?
Maybe they don't see themselveslike on an academic path,
because it's an overwhelmingquestion to ask a 16 year old
what are you going to do withyour life?
What are you going to be whenyou grow up?
Dr. Amy Moore (23:36):
Right.
Sandy Zamalis (23:36):
But if you break it down, I love your idea of
that five-year plan, but I'mguessing from a parent
perspective you could even breakit down to a one-year plan.
What do you see yourself in ayear?
Five years is too big, but it'sthat breaking down a vision so
that it becomes more doable andit's easier for that individual
child to make decisions on thatplan and for a parent to say hey
(24:02):
, I saw you made this decision.
I'm concerned, it goes againstyour plan.
Tell me how these two connect,because I'm not seeing that, and
help me understand so these twoconnect, because I'm not seeing
that and help me understand.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (24:16):
Yeah, what I typically do when I interview
the young adult, I start withthat five-year plan when are you
going to be living?
Will you be living alone or,would you think, with a
significant other?
And then what do you thinkyou'll be doing?
And that can be vague, but thenI go to if you want to get to
that position where you'reindependent, you have your own
job and your own money, your carand all that.
(24:36):
What do you need to do in thenext six months to get to that
plan?
And then the next three monthsand then the next two weeks?
So I want to get that kind ofidea of the steps, the process
to get there and get themstarted.
I don't you go four year, threeyear, whatever.
(24:56):
If I can get them started andget them, get some momentum
going, that really that getsthings moving in the directions.
And then when they put the plantogether and the parents say,
okay, here's how we'll help you,here's what we're not going to
do, and then we meet after thatand say, okay, it's two weeks
later.
What have you done in your twoweek goal that you need to get
(25:18):
to in order to go to this fiveyear plan?
And then I, we meet a monthlater.
It's all.
I try to do it all in apositive.
What has happened positively.
Try to not end up beating thiskid up oh, I didn't do that.
And make the call or whatever.
What did you do and how do wehelp you?
If you're having trouble doingthat?
Is there a way we need to helpyou more to get your resume
(25:42):
together, to call the schools tointerview for jobs or whatever,
but I'm not I don't there's alot of.
I just actually wrote just ablog that I'm going to post here
shortly on on enabling, becauseI hear that from parents a lot.
Oh, I'm enabling the child, notthe young adult not to be able
(26:02):
to be independent because I'mdoing too much for them.
But I think that there's a waythat you can just sometimes it
just helps to get the jumpstartto do a little bit, but they
have to step up too.
You don't want to do it forthem, but okay, I don't know
about flying to jobs.
I'll drive you to the interview, but you do the interview.
(26:24):
I'll help you with the resume,I'll give you some input, but
you're going to write the resume, basically.
So I don't think those are waysthat parents are somehow
hindering or doing, enabling, ina negative sense of the word.
Again, it fits into thispartner.
I'm going to partner with you,but you're going to be doing
(26:45):
this.
I'll do some of it, but you'regoing to have to do the rest.
Dr. Amy Moore (26:48):
Yeah, it's scaffolding that planning and
reasoning part of executivefunctions and it's beautiful.
There's a difference betweenscaffolding and doing for.
Sandy Zamalis (27:02):
And it's really mentoring, right, because you're
trying to walk alongside themas they're about to do something
foreign and different and scary.
Right, I'm going to walk intothis big building by myself, as
a an adult, to do an interview.
How nice to.
It's actually a nice thing tohave someone drive you so you
don't have to worry about whereto park your car and all that
kind of stuff.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (27:22):
Those are all important, I think,
connection building things yeahI don't get into thinking that's
enabling and that it's thiskind of the negative connotation
that's developed over the yearsfrom the mainly from the
substance abuse field and you'reenabling them to be addicted by
not allowing them to experienceconsequences and stuff.
Dr. Amy Moore (27:46):
You're enabling them to be addicted to living at
home.
That's about the same as theirfive year plan.
Is that?
I want to live with mommy anddaddy?
What are your?
Thoughts on the gap year.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (27:58):
Oh, I love it.
It didn't exist when I wasgrowing up.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:04):
That would not have been tolerated.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (28:05):
No, you're going to travel for a year.
You're going to do other stuff.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:09):
No, and even.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (28:11):
I had.
It reflects on my orientationat the time when my son was
graduating from college.
He was going to go to medicalschool and he decided to spend a
year and go to Korea and teachEnglish and I thought, well,
that's not good, Maybe he won'tcome back or this is not going
to work out, or it wouldn't be agood thing, and he said Dad if
(28:33):
I don't do it now, I'll never doit because I'll get to medical
school and I'll be working onfamily.
I just want to take this year toit.
I couldn't argue with that.
It made a lot of sense to me,but there was a little bit of
anxiety, concern about that.
I like not going to schoolanymore.
Maybe I'll push off medicalschool for another year or two
(28:54):
or something.
I didn't know what was going tohappen, but he was pretty clear
.
He went.
Great experience came back,went to medical school.
Has that rich kind ofexperience in his history of
being in a different country.
Dr. Amy Moore (29:08):
Yeah, my youngest actually took a gap year and a
half and did a couple ofinternships.
He traveled internationallywith the Youth Symphony so he
got to perform in the SydneyOpera House as a flute player
and really just spent some timedecompressing from the nightmare
(29:30):
that going to school duringCOVID was and then just making
sure that what he thinks hewants to do with his life really
was what he wanted to do withhis life.
And so now he's back in school,double majoring in music,
performance and psychology, andhe has a five-year plan.
And that wasn't something thatwe did officially, just it has
(29:51):
evolved.
Something that we didofficially, just it has evolved.
I found the people whostruggled the most with my child
taking a gap year were myparents?
oh sure that my parents justdidn't get it at all yeah,
that's very far.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (30:08):
yeah, that's where I'm going back to my
growing up and my parents saying, oh, that's not going to happen
.
So you know, yeah, and myparents were educated.
Dr. Amy Moore (30:18):
So that was crazy .
Like you go to high school,then you go to college, then you
go to grad school.
Do you know that I was a juniorin high school before I
realized that college wasoptional.
Is that right was optional, isthat right?
I just grew up thinkingeveryone automatically goes to
(30:39):
college and so it wasn't until Iwas applying to colleges that I
realized some people aren'tdoing that yeah, yeah, it's, and
it's there.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (30:50):
There are some tough situations where the
young adult decided they don'twant to go to college and it's
already been planned.
I had this family I worked withand they had saved money and
this oldest son was going to goto the school in Montana, I
think it was and they alreadyhad his father went there and
(31:11):
they had some kind of specialdeal where the price was reduced
or something, maybe because ofthe father's involvement there.
I don't know.
But he just decided whathappened was he ended up having
a girlfriend and she was goingto stay locally, and so he
decided I don't think I'm goingto go and maybe I'll spend a
(31:31):
year here working or whatever.
And maybe I'll spend a yearhere working or whatever.
But it was real hard for theparents to accept that, because
they had this vision about howit was going to be and he had a
different vision at the time.
So we ended up deliveringpizzas that was his job and then
(31:51):
finally decided that I think hewanted to be a welder or
something like that.
He was a skilled trades andthat's where he ended up,
training at that.
Ok, if that's what you reallywant to do, but I think it was.
There was some real kind ofadded.
(32:21):
That's part of a let it goprocess for parents, because
probably for all of us early onwe have some expectations about
what's going to happen with thishigh school and then they're
going to go to college and goingto do these things and to be
able to say maybe they mighttake a different turn, might do
something different and be opento that.
(32:43):
Supporting that, I think, isreally important.
Dr. Amy Moore (32:47):
And what are the consequences of not being
supportive of that idea?
Not?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (32:52):
being supportive of that idea.
Certainly, there's a good bitof conflict around that, as
there was in this situation thatI described.
There was a lot of anger, a lotof frustration, and the parents
were clearly disappointed andwondered if this, and he ended
up breaking up with a girlfriend.
But he stayed in the housedelivering pizzas, I think, for
(33:16):
maybe a couple of years until hefigured out OK, this is what he
really wanted to do and thenpursued this kind of welding
opportunity.
But it was a it was anuncomfortable situation.
Here he is he's now 19.
He's 20.
He's delivering pizzas.
He's now 19,.
He's 20, he's delivering pizzas.
He's in the basement and theydon't have a lot of contact with
him.
He's not doing realcommunicative with them and
(33:43):
they're wondering is he going todo something different?
And I don't know what promptedhim to all at once think okay, I
want to do something in theskilled trades.
But somehow that came to himand then he decided to move in
that direction and has done wellat that.
He did try community college.
A couple of classes just didn'tgo, didn't work out.
(34:04):
So he just wasn't into going toschool at that point and
somehow got the idea that hecould go into the skilled trades
.
I wish more young adults wouldlook at those options in the
skilled trades.
There's so much of a bias, Ithink, in our culture that you
got to go to college.
That's where that somehowyou're kind of a status issue in
(34:28):
some way.
And yet if you look at theearning power, if you go into
the skilled trades and you earna certain amount of money over
time compared to the collegestudent who comes out with a
degree in, I don't know,communications or something and
bounce around.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:43):
Some jobs there's not a lot of gap in the income
over a lifetime period.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (34:49):
There's the kind of status everybody should
go to college or there'ssomething wrong with you if
you're not going to college andthat's a shame that that kind of
view.
Sandy Zamalis (34:57):
I mentioned in a previous podcast that I really
think that college is the newhigh school for our kids because
my mom in the seventies or no,probably sixties, late sixties
when she was in high school theyhad all sorts of like
enrichment and interactiveactivities.
Now this is out in Californiaat the time, so in her world she
(35:18):
would say why don't you take aclass on mystery writing?
I don't have that option, butthat was how she grew up.
She got to try all of thesethings.
There wasn't this rigid sort oflike high school I would say
syllabus that we're running downright now.
And so none of the really trialand error stuff comes into play
(35:38):
until college, and then it'salmost, like you're saying, a
little too late.
So kids that would maybe thrivein more hands-on career like
welding or electrical work orthose kinds of trades, kinds of
things, you either have to knowthat really early on in high
school and we'd have a.
We frown upon that a little bit, I think, in some high school
(35:59):
communities, some areas.
We don't necessarily value it,but it would have been great for
them and then.
But instead we push them on thecollege track, which maybe is
not the right path for them.
But if they could try it sooner, we could maybe get them more
confident and building towardsthat launch a little bit easier,
much quicker.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (36:21):
Yeah, maybe trigger their interest.
I'm just thinking about it.
I went to when I was in highschool.
I did wood shop and metal shop.
I don't know if they have thatand I don't think my son ever
did anything like that.
I don't think that wasavailable.
Dr. Amy Moore (36:35):
My son took a drafting course.
I remember that.
Sandy Zamalis (36:38):
And I remember my husband tells stories.
My husband's a mechanicalengineer and he tells stories
about cause.
My husband's pretty can bepretty domineering when he wants
something and he wanted to be.
He always wanted to be.
He's a car guy.
I always wanted to be amechanical engineer.
He always wanted to buildengines.
He wanted to work in DetroitLike he had a whole vision for
his life.
And so he walked in to theguidance counselor and was like
(37:01):
I'm taking metal shop.
And she was like arguing himout of it Cause he was on the
college track.
And he was like no, I'm takingmetal shop.
And he took metal shop one andmetal shop two and he said by
far hands down, best two classeshe ever took and he uses it
still today, which I think iskudos to him.
But for most kids they're goingto be like, oh okay, I should
(37:23):
go this way it takes a certainamount of fortitude to have
those kinds of programs atschool.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (37:31):
How do kids even know about the
opportunities in the skilledtrades?
They don't learn about it.
So if they don't go to college,then what do they do?
Flounder around a bit, try tofigure out what they might want
to do.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:44):
Absolutely All right.
So, speaking of college, what Isee frequently is conflict that
occurs when kids have gone awayto school and then they're home
for Christmas break or they'rehome for summer break.
They've had all of thisindependence while they're away
at school.
They're able to manage theirown schedules, what time they
(38:05):
come and go, and now they'vecome home and the high school
rules that the parents had inplace haven't been adjusted.
So what are your thoughts onnegotiating that?
What should that look like?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (38:19):
I'm sure both of you probably had those
experiences.
I've certainly had those wherethe kids are up late and they're
clanging pots around.
I got to get up and go to workthe next day.
Dr. Amy Moore (38:29):
At 2 am.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (38:29):
they're cooking, they're cooking,
something they had stayed uplate in school.
Dr. Amy Moore (38:34):
I don't know we got through it.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (38:37):
But the other thing that occurred when
they came home for those breaksand then if they were home in
the summer, was now I had toworry about when they were out
late, where they were, when theywere at school.
I slept like a baby.
I don't know what was happening.
I remember my daughter went offto school a local school and a
(38:58):
conservative Christian collegeand she called me and one day
and said I was out at threeo'clock at this guy's apartment.
My girlfriend and I went overto this guy's apartment I think
she was hoping that there'd besome shock value to that and I
said oh, I don't know, I wasjust sound asleep last night.
Sandy Zamalis (39:18):
I didn't know that.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (39:19):
Okay, how are other things going?
Dr. Amy Moore (39:21):
for you.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (39:23):
But it was like, oh, she's experienced that
freedom.
That's fine.
I don't know about it, I'msleeping, that's fine.
But when they're home andthey're coming home at 3 o'clock
that changes things all at once.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:37):
Because it impacts your ability, it steps
on your toes.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (39:41):
Absolutely yeah.
I mean, you're kind ofwell-being, your sense of just
well.
You end up feeling back intothat more responsible role as a
parent.
When they're out that they are,they in the ditch, do they
drive off the road, what, what'shappening, type of thing.
So I had two girls and a boy.
(40:02):
I was more strict with the twogirls.
They couldn't go downtownminneapolis to the night
nightclub.
That's not going to happen, andI think they appreciate it.
They would not let their kidsget down there now.
No way.
They're even more clamped downon their kids than I was.
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (40:21):
Well, I had three boys and so I'm on the lenient
side of rule setting, simplybecause I had a philosophy that
I needed to know where they wereand who they were with and
everything else was negotiable.
And until they gave me a reasonto think that would not work,
that system would not work, wewent with that system and I
(40:44):
think I got super lucky that thesystem worked.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (40:47):
They didn't push those boundaries, yeah good
, super lucky that the systemworked.
They didn't push thoseboundaries.
Sandy Zamalis (40:51):
Yeah good.
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Dr. Amy Moore (41:48):
I want to talk about paying rent.
Okay, that's a point ofcontention among parents, from
family to family right, wheresome families think that if you
are going to live at home youneed to pay rent and other
families would never chargetheir children rent.
What are your thoughts on thepros and cons of that?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (42:08):
I pretty much say that if you're living
at home, and I think I get goodagreement across all the parents
that I work with you're eithergoing to be working or you're
going to be going to school oryou're going to be some
combination of that.
Doing nothing is not acceptable.
That's not an alternative planC or D that doesn't work.
Alternative plan C or D thatdoesn't work.
So if they are working andthat's a good thing and if
(42:32):
they're full-time, I like tomake the argument that and
they're living at home let'screate the environment that
would be most like what it wouldbe like to be living on their
own.
So that means that they paysome level of rent, not the full
price they'd have to pay outthere.
(42:55):
But I also encourage parents tobank that money and then use it
to help them when they do moveto an apartment at some point in
time.
But they need to be cookingmeals, they need to be cleaning
the room, they need to becleaning the room, they need to
be doing their laundry, theyneed to be responsible as if
they were living with a roommatein a roommate situation.
(43:16):
So I think the closer you canget to creating that kind of
environment that feels likethey're living like a roommate,
you're treating them like anadult and they have adult
responsibilities, the easier thetransition is.
I might as well be living on myown because I don't have anybody
telling me what time to come inand I, yeah, good idea.
(43:37):
Yes, I've had some people say Ilike to try to make it so
uncomfortable to be at home thatthey're going to want to leave
to be at home, that they'regoing to want to leave.
One person this was a kid whowas smoking weed and giving it
to his younger kids and theytook him out of his room and put
an air mattress in the hallway.
(43:57):
He said you have to sleep inthe hallway and I thought I
don't think that works very well.
I had another.
I think I read someplace whereyou were supposed to give them
the smallest possible room, evena closet that they can, that
you put their bed in they wouldget so upset about being
(44:19):
confined that they would leave.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:19):
I don't agree with that approach.
Okay, I want to thank you forgiving me a different
perspective just now on the rent, because I was in the camp of
I'm paying my mortgage anyway.
I don't need my children tocontribute to that, and so I
felt, look, the economy's hardenough as it is.
They need their money.
I would never take it from them, and so it had not occurred to
(44:41):
me that, again, that's ascaffolding opportunity.
That's an opportunity toapproximate what it'll be like
when they are on their own,helps them budget their money.
And I have agreed with parentswho have saved that money when
they have charged theirchildren's rent and given it
back to them to help them.
But I had not considered thevalue to the young adult before.
(45:07):
I thought parents who chargetheir kids rent are trying to
make it so they'll move outright, they'll move out without
rules.
So thank you for thatperspective.
So I hope there are otherlisteners right now who were on
the fence about that or whomaybe had drawn a hard line
about that, that you openedtheir eyes as well.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (45:29):
Sure, I think you get to be reasonable.
If they're taking classes andare working part-time probably
not charging something at thatpoint, but they're working
full-time they need to be anadult participant in that family
and that's in thesemulti-generational families.
You have to pay into the family, whether it's called rent, or
(45:49):
you put it into the common potfor the cover, the expenses or
whatever.
But that's just.
That makes sense.
You're in the family here andyou should contribute in some
way to it.
But you can be prettyreasonable about that too.
Sandy Zamalis (46:04):
So what are some key signs?
I know we're coming up close tothe end of our time and we've
talked a lot about launching andwhat a successful launch looks
like, but what are some keythings that you can give to
parents that are listening sothey can start making these
steps towards a successfullaunch that maintains that
connection?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (46:26):
Yeah, I think that I talk about these
practices that parents need toinvest in or strengthen, and it
starts with unconditional love,no matter what.
That, to me, secures therelationship, creates this sense
that when they're out there ontheir own and they're stumbling
around, they know, no matterwhat, whether they're doing well
(46:48):
or not, their parents love them.
And then I talk about gettingcloser to your kids, which is
somewhat counterintuitive.
Wait a minute, you should bebacking off, shouldn't you?
No, back off of the control anddirection, but get closer in
terms of supporting their pathforward, their new identity, how
they're trying to develop theiridentity and their independence
(47:09):
.
And then I talk about thepractice of the healing,
practices of apology andforgiveness, where I have a lot
of parents and I think I alwayssay parents are the guiltiest
segment of our society.
Oh, I didn't think I did itright, I must have done
something wrong or whatever.
And if that's the case, theyneed to just apologize for it.
(47:29):
Let go of the guilt that way.
And if that's the case, theyneed to just apologize for it.
Let go of the guilt that way.
And if there's some resentmenton the young adult's side, that
will soften that up too.
And then you get to the pointof, okay, you bring the
unconditional love forward withnow, the backbone, which there's
a difference betweenunconditional love and
(47:50):
unconditional approval forbehavior.
So you have to say, okay, Ilove you and these are our rules
.
We have certain principles orcertain values honesty, keeping
your promises, being trustworthyand those are the things that
create a certain firmness, thatgives the platform that they
(48:12):
have to stand on their own.
I like to think of a youngadult leaning on the parent like
this and because the parent ishelping, doing everything for
them, and what you don't want todo is just drop off because
they'll fall down and you don'twant to push them over.
That's doing, but you want tostand up.
(48:34):
So they have to stand up.
Now, they have to stand up ontheir own.
That's when you say no.
That's when you say no, theseare our boundaries or our
limitations on that.
So that stage is reallyimportant and I tell parents or
ask the question how do I knowif I'm doing the right?
thing if I'm combining the loveand backbone in my approach and
(48:55):
I say ask yourself threequestions.
Am I making this decision ortaking this action out of love
and not out of fear, anxiety,frustration, resentment, anger,
those types of things?
Secondly, is my decision or myaction consistent with my values
, that is, I believe in honestyand being trustworthy and
(49:19):
keeping your promises and thosetypes of things.
And then the third questionthey ask is my decision or my
actions likely to increase theirindependence or their
dependence?
I can't give advice on everydecision a parent has to make,
but can give you some.
Here's a way to test.
Okay, I got to make a difficultdecision.
(49:40):
I'm getting pushed right now bythis young adult to do
something or they don't, I'msure I want to do.
Go through those threequestions and then that final
stage to do.
Go through those threequestions and then that final
stage, final practice, is theletting go.
And I encourage parents to writea letter.
That is a way of saying goodbyeto the young adult, as if they
are going off to Europe orsomething and you may never see
(50:02):
them again.
And in that letter you say Ilove you, I have such great
hopes for you.
And these are the things thatI've enjoyed in you over the
years.
Maybe these are some things Iregretted.
I wished I could have donesomething more here and you just
send that, give that letter tothem, and all three of my kids
(50:22):
have that letter, so they knowthat love that I have for them
and they know how my belief inthem, that I have for them, and
they know how my belief in themthat I communicated in that
letter and it's it.
Was it they could find it or not?
Now they have the experience ofthat, with me giving him that
letter so that's the letting gopart to the last part of it.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:42):
So I love that.
I think that's beautiful.
Sandy Zamalis (50:47):
Yeah, I'm like gonna, I'm going to make a point
about it.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (50:54):
I can't keep it together.
Sandy Zamalis (50:56):
No, I like that thought.
I like that chapter in yourbook too, where you walk through
not the letter part but evenjust letting your kids know what
you like about them and workingthrough that process with,
because they don't always knowit, we don't always say enough
of those things, so having it inwriting would be beautiful.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (51:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (51:17):
Yeah, I.
A couple of months ago I wasthinking about my middle son
while I was in church and I hadthis overwhelming need to call
him right then and tell him.
And so I got up from being inthe middle of church service,
went outside and called him andsaid look, I'm not calling you
(51:38):
for any particular reason,except to tell you how cool I
think you are, how amazing Ithink you are, just told him
several things that I justreally love about him, and I
cried through the wholeconversation.
But I just needed him to know,because I was overwhelmed with
(51:59):
just these loving thoughts abouthim in the moment, and I
thought I really ought to dothat more often, like every time
I think you talk about in yourbook, when you're frustrated
with your young adult child,like it helps to go back and
look at pictures of them whenthey were younger or to reflect
on happy memories, and so Ithink that when those happy
(52:22):
memories or really lovingthoughts pop into our minds, we
ought to share them right away,and it's so easy with texting
now too, right.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (52:29):
Yeah, that's so nice that you followed that
urge, that intuitive kind ofdesire to do that.
I would hope most parents woulddo that too and not say oh, and
then they might think it'scorny or they might not like it
or it might be awkward.
Just take the time to say youlove them.
Take the time to say how muchthey matter and how important
(52:49):
they are are to you.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:51):
now I'm gonna get emotional I'm sure he thought I
was crazy in the moment, likebut he won't forget that I'll
bet, but it it had to land in away that made him understand
that I think he's so specialyeah yeah, yeah, jack.
How can our listeners find outmore about all of these great
(53:14):
pieces of advice you gave today?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (53:17):
Give a little pitch on my book, which
is the parents.
It says Jack's copy on there.
The parents launch code lovingand letting go of our young
adults, and that's what theloving piece is important to me,
because it's got to be both.
We have to love them.
Dr. Amy Moore (53:33):
At one point I thought about.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (53:34):
I had a different title love to let them
go or something like that, butit really is putting those two
things together and then my, soit's available on Amazon, and
then my website is calledparentslettinggocom, so there's
a lot of information in there.
People want to go to my websiteand sign up.
I do these blogs periodicallyand there's a lot of information
(53:57):
on the website, too, that mostof the blogs that I've written
I'm up to about 150 of the blogsright now address issues that
have come up with parents,parents of young adults that I'm
working with.
So there's typically, if you'vegot a question, how do I deal
with this?
It's likely something that I'vedealt with in one of those
blogs too.
So thank you for asking me,matt.
Dr. Amy Moore (54:17):
Absolutely.
Our listeners just get soexcited about the advice that
they typically want more, and sowe love to be able to offer
them resources from our guests,especially when you have a book
that they can just go buy anddevour, like Sandy and I both
did as well.
Dr Jack, thank you so much forbeing with us today.
We really appreciate your timeand your insights and your
(54:39):
wisdom, and I just so muchappreciate that you have devoted
your entire practice and careerto this really hard stage of
parenting, so well needed andexciting to be able to have a
resource to point people to fromnow on.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (54:56):
Yeah, it's a pleasure to be with you.
Thank you for having me.
I've enjoyed this, and yourinsights and your questions are
really right, right on targetwith this.
Dr. Amy Moore (55:06):
Well, good, all right.
Moms, Thank you so much forbeing with us today.
If you like us, please followus on Instagram and Facebook at
the Brainy Moms.
If you would rather see ourfaces, we are on YouTube at the
Brainy Moms, and we would loveit if you would give us a
five-star rating and review onApple Podcasts so that we can
reach more moms just like you.
(55:27):
That is all the smart stuff wehave for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter.
We're going to catch you nexttime.
Hi, smart moms and dads, welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningRx Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amy Moore, here with my co-host, Sandy Zamalis, and Sandy and I
are gonna have a conversationwith our guest, Dr.
Jack Stoltzfus.
Dr Jack is a clinicalpsychologist and America's
(00:22):
launch coach.
His mission is to help parentssupport their adult child's
transition to self-sufficientindependence while maintaining a
caring bond with their parents.
His book, The Parent's LaunchCode: Loving and Letting Go of
Our Adult Children is going tobe at the center of our
(00:44):
conversation tonight, so we'resuper excited to welcome Dr.
Jack.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (00:50):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Sandy Zamalis (00:52):
I have been waiting I think three years for
this topic and I'm super excitedto talk about parenting adult
children because I think it'sthe hardest timeframe and it's
hard to scale because it goes onfor so long.
But help us understand how youlanded in this area and this
expertise.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (01:13):
Sure, I was going to say I think it is a
really tough time because, asone of my workshop participants
said, the problem with youngadults is they're adults, you
can't control them, and so theold power and control and
direction thing is just not.
They're adults, you can'tcontrol them, and so the old
power and control and directionthing is just not going to work.
You're going to have to make ashift on that.
But in terms of my background,actually my story goes back to
(01:34):
just some estrangement andstruggles I had with my father
growing up in my teen and youngadult years.
That led me into doing adissertation and trying to
define and describe thedifference, the concept of
differentiation, emotionaldifferentiation of adolescents
from their parents.
(01:56):
And then so I did that work andthen, fast forward to about 11
or 12 years ago, I startedseeing more parents who were
coming to me with concerns abouttheir kids mainly around not
getting traction ondevelopmental tasks that they
needed to pursue, and so Ithought I have this research
background, understanding whatseparation, healthy separation,
(02:19):
is, and then I've got threeyoung adults myself, so I
thought and then I've got threeyoung adults myself, so I
thought maybe I'll justconcentrate on this area.
So I pretty much exclusivelywork with parents of young
adults, involve the young adultsin the process, because I try
to build this partnershipbetween parents and young adults
in the direction of adulthood,how to help them move toward
(02:42):
adulthood.
So that's my background.
I'm a psychologist.
Dr. Amy Moore (02:48):
So I found it interesting in your book that
you said your dissertationadvisor advised against this
topic for your research.
Why was that?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (02:59):
Well, that's the standard line Don't pursue
something that you'reemotionally involved in your
dissertation.
Do something just.
You could care less about somesmall little detail that you
want to pursue or research anddo that.
So it was probably good advice.
It maybe took me longer to dothis, but I think I was.
(03:20):
I felt like I really learnedsomething important to me
personally out of it, so I don'tregret doing it.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:29):
But I think it's not.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (03:30):
it's good advice to not do that.
I think Right.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:34):
I texted Sandy earlier and said I'm going to
have a hard time with thisepisode.
I'm afraid I'm going to crythrough this whole episode
because I have decided I havethree adult sons just launched
the youngest a month ago and Ihave I've decided that this is
by far the hardest season ofmotherhood.
(03:59):
Not the teenage years, not thetoddler years, but this idea of
not knowing how much do theyneed me, how many times a week
should I text them?
Should I give them advice ornot?
It's this constant wrestlingwith.
(04:21):
I don't want to overstep,because I know that my role has
changed now, but at the sametime, I want to make sure they
know that I still love them,that I still care about what
they're doing all day, and soI've just decided that this is
the most challenging season yet.
So I was excited to readthrough your book and to talk to
you, because I know that you'vebuilt an entire practice on
(04:45):
this season for parents, so I'mnot alone in this plight.
And Sandy said the exact samething when she texted me back.
Sandy Zamalis (04:52):
She said you are not alone in this, no, and
there's not enough resources outthere.
Really, it's a very niche areato try to find help in.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (05:01):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, if you do the look atthe Google parents of young
adults versus other parentingthings, there's a very small
percentage of the resources outthere devoted to this and I
think it reflects a bias in ourculture that by the time your
son or daughter's 18 or at least21, you're done parenting, it's
(05:22):
over, so we don't have to doany more parenting.
We all know that isn't true,and there's been this elongation
of young adulthood too.
Now that extends 18 to 29,.
Much different than 50 yearsago where I think it was a
little bit more typical to sayhey, it's 18 years, you're 18
(05:42):
years old, I raised you.
Now kind of hit the road, I'mdone, I did my job, and partly
that I think that is a result ofover time and with my
generation, boomer generation webegan to invest more in the
happiness and success of ourkids than in past generations,
and I think that's continuedinto the Gen X and the
(06:04):
millennial and now the Gen Z'stoo.
So when they're not happy orthey're not successful, we stay
involved.
Maybe we can help some more.
So they may be 20, 21, 22, andwe may stay more involved.
But yeah, it's a challenge.
I talk about the challenge ofletting go and my website's
called parentslettinggocombecause it starts early on.
(06:27):
You have this infant and thenyou're letting go, they're
toddling away and you've got allthese letting go steps along
the way, and I think this one ofletting go into young adulthood
is, in some ways, the hardest,because you're now, they're now
outside of your sphere ofinfluence and and I think what
(06:47):
you were saying, I think Amy istoo how much do you, how much do
you try to be involved and in asupportive way, and how much do
you step back and let go andsay that they have to make their
own decision on that?
One of the challenges is youhear some parents say I don't
give them any advice at all, Ijust step back and don't give
(07:08):
any advice, and I've never beencomfortable with that approach.
I like to give my kids adviceand I think in some ways, they
want to hear that.
But I use this kind of sandwichapproach, which is to say, okay
, I'm going to give you myexperience on this decision you
have to make and some things Iknow about it, but it's your
decision.
I put it right up front, likethat.
(07:29):
Then I give them that.
Here's my advice, here's what Ithink you should consider and
then I say at the end of this itwas a sandwich.
At the end of that is, again,it's your decision.
I'm not going to be mad at youif you don't take my advice.
Do what you need to do, and Ifound that works pretty well.
My kids seem to accept that.
They don't feel like I'mtelling them what to do at that
(07:49):
point.
I'm really operating more likea consultant.
You know we get consultants andI worked at 3M for a number of
years Get consultants, come inthere, they tell you what you
already know and you say thankyou very much, we're not going
to follow your advice.
So it's a good way to try tohit that sweet spot that you're
talking about, amy, of how muchto be involved and how much to
(08:11):
stay back too.
Dr. Amy Moore (08:12):
Yeah, for sure, you talk a lot about
vulnerability and transparency.
How would you apply that tothose particular conversations,
to advice giving?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (08:25):
I think that and I quote Brene Brown in the
book, as when she talks aboutvulnerability as the route to
intimacy and I think parentssometimes hold back on talking
about their own struggles, theirown vulnerability, or even just
I'm worried about you, or I'mconcerned because maybe that
they'd lose some credibility inthat I got to be the one that is
(08:49):
in charge and has it alltogether and all.
But I think it opens up thatchannel of intimacy and, with
relationships being highlyreciprocal, you're more apt to
get more openness coming back toyou from the young adult too.
I say look and I think peoplecan parents can talk about their
own young adult experience,what worked and what didn't work
(09:12):
, and also acknowledge it was adifferent period of time.
Things went differently thenthan they do now and I think
that's an adjustment I have tohelp parents make, that it's a
different period of time now andwhat worked with you may not
work with the parenting approachto young adults now.
Dr. Amy Moore (09:29):
So you talk about .
You quote a statistic that morethan 50% of young adults 18 to
29, are living at home, morethan any time in history in the
United States.
Why?
What's happening?
What's different now?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (09:48):
And that's a statistic that came from the
Pew Research Group back in 2020.
So we're at that COVID period,that pandemic period, so that
influenced that statistic.
Right now it's still 50%, morethan 50% in the 18 to
25-year-old, or 18 to 24,probably closer to 30-some
(10:10):
percent if you're in the 18 to29% right now, but it still is
high.
And there's an attitude orstatistic that 39% of adults
think that kids living at homeis a bad thing, and I would
argue with that point.
But I think it's the kind of aletting go process from both
(10:34):
ends I think parents having alittle harder time letting go
and the young adults, because ofthe parents' involvement, may
have a little harder timeletting go from their end, and
there's some economic issuesright now that clearly play into
this.
The house is out of thequestion for most Gen Zs right
now, and even affordingapartments is difficult, so it
(10:58):
tends to extend the time ofbeing at home.
Maybe I can make some money andbe able to save some money to
move out, which I don't think isa bad thing.
I think there is this bias,though, in our country that if
you're not out of the home byyour early 20s, that's a concern
or the alarm bells go off whenit's 26, 27, 28.
(11:23):
If you go to India, I had thispodcast with this Indian
podcaster and he was saying inIndia, if you're 23, 24, 25,
living outside the home, there'ssomething wrong.
That's a problem, because theyhave this multi-generational
experience and these kids are athome.
(11:43):
20% of couples live with theirparents in India too, so it's a
unique part of our cultures.
So I think it reflects some ofour independence emphasis in our
culture.
Well, you should be on your owntype of thing, but for me, the
litmus test of whether a youngadult is launched or not doesn't
(12:03):
have anything to do with wherethey live.
It has to do with them beingself-sufficient and responsible.
And then I had a little pieceon that's different than, I
think, many of the people thatwrite in this area, and that is
that they have a positiveconnection or caring bond with
their parents, because I'mconcerned about the emotional
(12:24):
part of that separation processtoo, so I put that in there so
they could be living at home.
They've got a job, they'recontributing, maybe paying rent
or helping with cooking meals.
In my opinion, they'reindependent, they're launched.
They don't have to be livingdown the street or something
like that.
Sandy Zamalis (12:43):
One of the other statistics that you had on your
website that I floored Amy withwhen I read it was that one in
four young adults cut offcommunication from their parents
on average for months or someindefinitely, and I definitely
have noticed this trend ofestrangement and it's like I
told Dr Amy it was like mymortal fear.
Dr. Amy Moore (13:06):
So I'm telling her.
I'm like that's lies from Satan.
What are you talking about?
You have a great relationshipwith your kids.
And then she quoted yourstatistic.
No wonder you're afraid of onein four right, yeah, that's a
scary number.
Sandy Zamalis (13:22):
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (13:31):
That's the lower end.
You were being generous.
Yeah, I mean it's.
It's no, that's probablyaccurate, but the they talk
about an average of four monthsand I've read some other
statistics that it's longer thanthat that these young adults
cut off their communication fromtheir parents.
But it's a heartbreakingsituation for parents when that
happens, and sometimes there'sno obvious cause of that and I
(13:53):
don't know if it's the youngadults that want.
I just want to show I can makeit on my own.
I don't have to talk to myparents.
And that probably plays into it,because most of them reconnect
at some time plays into itbecause most of them reconnect
at some time, except some ofthem will just plain cut off for
good, and that's really, like Isaid, heartbreaking for the
(14:13):
parents.
It's a loss for both the youngadult and the parent, because
it's not the way it should be.
You should be able to have thiscaring bond with your young
adult and your young adult withtheir parents, so it's a concern
.
I view my role as workingupstream.
I'm trying to prevent that.
I want to prevent that fromhappening and so far I've been
(14:35):
pretty successful because I workto bring the parents and the
young adult together to work ina partnership way toward this
responsible, self-sufficientindependence, and so they're
working together and so itdoesn't feel like I'm getting
pushed out where there's a bigargument about whether I should
be out or not.
It's really based on the youngadult's plan and the parent
(14:58):
working with them.
And even at times where I've hadparents say look, you're not
accepting the rules of the home.
It may be things like you'restealing from us or you're using
drugs, or there's things thatyou're doing that we just can't
tolerate in the home.
So it looks like you want tolive someplace else.
(15:19):
Let's help you find some placeto live and we'll work with you
and maybe we'll help you withsome money for an apartment
We'll get, I'll give you somefurniture or something.
So that kind of softens thatit's not just like the kid may
say you're kicking me out.
I say no, you're choosing tolive someplace else.
You can live here with if youabide by the rules, but you're
(15:42):
choosing to live someplace elseand let's help that person live
someplace else.
And I think that softens thatkind of sense of rejection that
they might feel.
Sandy Zamalis (15:52):
Do you find that, for the estrangement issue in
particular, that it usuallycenters around boundary issues,
whether it be a parent or theyoung adult just trying to
figure out those more adultrelationship boundary pieces
that need to get put into place?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (16:11):
I think that can be true at times.
I think some young adults maywant to, as part of their
ability to feel like they areindependent, put some very tight
boundaries around how much timeI spend with you, whether
you're helping me or not, whatinformation I give you, what I
(16:32):
tell you about what I'm doing.
So I think that sometimes playsinto their need to kind of
establish that sense of theirseparate, capability to be
separate and be self-sufficient.
So I think you're right in that.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:50):
So I love that you mentioned that it's a choice
right, that you have the optionto live within the boundaries
that we set or to honor theparameters of living here.
And if that doesn't work foryou, so you're either breaking
my house rules, therefore you'rechoosing not to follow them.
(17:14):
I just love the agency that youbring to that, that it isn't
just about the parents makingthese hard and fast rules and
then imposing a consequence ontheir adult child.
Our choices come withconsequences for our entire life
.
Sure.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (17:31):
And it honors their decision, either
verbally to leave or by theiractions to leave.
Okay, we'll support you.
And in that process of tryingto find housing and trying to
find a way that you can be onyour own and I think there's
sometimes it just gets to apoint where it's time to leave
(17:51):
this not working, mean it, maybeit's not the rules, but there's
, it's contentious, it's notgoing well.
Let's try to find a way youcould move someplace or get to
another facility other than ourhouse yeah, I am I laugh because
just a story about art myparticular family.
Sandy Zamalis (18:14):
But so my son graduated college in March of
2020.
So right when COVID hit and hehad to come home and at the time
you couldn't even interview forjobs or anything like that and
he had been away for five yearsin college and my husband my
(18:35):
husband always laid thegroundwork early on that they
were expected to launch.
That was his hard and fast ruleWe'll help you, but you're
expected to go off and do yourthing.
And so when things weren'treally coming together, I
remember my I was having aconversation with my son and he
was just like, if I'm just goingto have to get any job, why
don't I get a job in Reno andlive with my friends?
(18:56):
It doesn't make sense to livehere.
Because I know he felt socontained in our house, like he
could not be free, and I thinkthat was the best thing, the
best decision he could have made, and he drove across the
country and went to live withfriends and we helped him in
that decision.
But but a lot of times familieshave a hard time having those
(19:19):
hard conversations of what'sbest, especially if there's any
fear or anxiety on the parentspart about what's going to
happen.
Do you have suggestions forfamilies having these kind of
launch kinds of conversations?
How do we take our anxiousnessout of the discussion?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (19:38):
And it's unfortunately.
I think the anxiety of parentsis somewhat contagious and the
young adult can feel thatanxiety at times too and that
affects their ability to believein themselves maybe and feel
like they can be successful,because mom and dad seem to be
anxious about whether I can besuccessful or not.
(19:58):
Maybe I can't be.
So it does play into it.
I think that just having verykind of heart-to-heart
discussions about where do youwant to be in five years, I do
this five-year plan with a youngadult.
I figure that's about as farout as they can go.
They say what's your lifetimeplan?
(20:19):
I don't know.
Even five years, I don't know.
But usually they'll come upwith something in five years.
And I always say that theparents are just so relieved
when they say they're not goingto be living at home in five
years, thank you.
But I've never had somebody saythey just want to be living
with mommy and daddy in fiveyears.
It just doesn't happen.
(20:39):
That's what it's kind of wiredup to be independent.
So then we say, okay, let's sayhow are you going to get there?
Usually I'm working with 18 to20, 29 year olds that age group.
But I've worked with a 16 yearold recently.
He's not going to school.
He's just he's just refusing togo to school, telling me I'm
(21:00):
not going to go.
I did a five year plan and he'sgoing to graduate from college
in five years, at 21.
Then I go back and say now,how's that going to work?
We're back to your five-yearplan, but you're not going to
school right now.
How are you going to be able toget there?
So now it becomes somethinglike his decision about whether
(21:23):
he wants to go to school or not,because his five-year plan is
to get to that collegegraduation.
It's not the parents saying whyaren't you going to school?
What's the the matter with youand getting on them and trying
to get him to get up in themorning and all that once it's
part of his plan and he startsthinking, yeah, I guess I'm not
(21:44):
going to get to that collegegraduation if I don't get to
school.
So I really believe in workingoff the young adult's plan.
And the parents sometimescringe.
When in five years, I want tobe a tattoo artist, parents are,
oh geez something like that heyyoung adults change jobs seven
times during their 20s.
So I tell them that this tooshall pass.
(22:06):
Things will change.
So let's just get behind himand talk about how you can
support him in terms of whatyou'll do to support that plan,
but also what you won't do,because he or she needs to stand
on her own.
And then, if there'sexpectations around the home to
be clear about those as part ofthe five year plan, then too.
But I used to get sucked intothe domestic disputes.
(22:31):
I used to get sucked into thedomestic disputes.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:33):
You get pulled in and they're just arguing.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (22:41):
He's playing video games or he doesn't buzz
his dishes back from his roomand he's just they're just
arguing.
If you get into that, then it'slike the police going into a
domestic dispute.
You're going to get hit by bothpeople, probably.
So if you try to represent theyoung adult, the parents are
irritated with you.
If you try to represent theparents, the young adult doesn't
want to hear from you.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:59):
Okay, let's talk about.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (23:01):
Let's point to the future, let's talk about
this five-year plan and it'syour plan, the young adult,
because it's your life.
At this point, parents can'ttell you what to do anymore, so
it's your life, and then try toget the parents to come around
that and to support that, andthat really seems to be working
pretty well, that kind ofapproach.
Sandy Zamalis (23:21):
Do you think our school system lacks that ability
to do that, though, to reallyhelp kids who don't?
Maybe they don't see themselveslike on an academic path,
because it's an overwhelmingquestion to ask a 16 year old
what are you going to do withyour life?
What are you going to be whenyou grow up?
Dr. Amy Moore (23:36):
Right.
Sandy Zamalis (23:36):
But if you break it down, I love your idea of
that five-year plan, but I'mguessing from a parent
perspective you could even breakit down to a one-year plan.
What do you see yourself in ayear?
Five years is too big, but it'sthat breaking down a vision so
that it becomes more doable andit's easier for that individual
child to make decisions on thatplan and for a parent to say hey
(24:02):
, I saw you made this decision.
I'm concerned, it goes againstyour plan.
Tell me how these two connect,because I'm not seeing that, and
help me understand so these twoconnect, because I'm not seeing
that and help me understand.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (24:16):
Yeah, what I typically do when I interview
the young adult, I start withthat five-year plan when are you
going to be living?
Will you be living alone or,would you think, with a
significant other?
And then what do you thinkyou'll be doing?
And that can be vague, but thenI go to if you want to get to
that position where you'reindependent, you have your own
job and your own money, your carand all that.
(24:36):
What do you need to do in thenext six months to get to that
plan?
And then the next three monthsand then the next two weeks?
So I want to get that kind ofidea of the steps, the process
to get there and get themstarted.
I don't you go four year, threeyear, whatever.
(24:56):
If I can get them started andget them, get some momentum
going, that really that getsthings moving in the directions.
And then when they put the plantogether and the parents say,
okay, here's how we'll help you,here's what we're not going to
do, and then we meet after thatand say, okay, it's two weeks
later.
What have you done in your twoweek goal that you need to get
(25:18):
to in order to go to this fiveyear plan?
And then I, we meet a monthlater.
It's all.
I try to do it all in apositive.
What has happened positively.
Try to not end up beating thiskid up oh, I didn't do that.
And make the call or whatever.
What did you do and how do wehelp you?
If you're having trouble doingthat?
Is there a way we need to helpyou more to get your resume
(25:42):
together, to call the schools tointerview for jobs or whatever,
but I'm not I don't there's alot of.
I just actually wrote just ablog that I'm going to post here
shortly on on enabling, becauseI hear that from parents a lot.
Oh, I'm enabling the child, notthe young adult not to be able
(26:02):
to be independent because I'mdoing too much for them.
But I think that there's a waythat you can just sometimes it
just helps to get the jumpstartto do a little bit, but they
have to step up too.
You don't want to do it forthem, but okay, I don't know
about flying to jobs.
I'll drive you to the interview, but you do the interview.
(26:24):
I'll help you with the resume,I'll give you some input, but
you're going to write the resume, basically.
So I don't think those are waysthat parents are somehow
hindering or doing, enabling, ina negative sense of the word.
Again, it fits into thispartner.
I'm going to partner with you,but you're going to be doing
(26:45):
this.
I'll do some of it, but you'regoing to have to do the rest.
Dr. Amy Moore (26:48):
Yeah, it's scaffolding that planning and
reasoning part of executivefunctions and it's beautiful.
There's a difference betweenscaffolding and doing for.
Sandy Zamalis (27:02):
And it's really mentoring, right, because you're
trying to walk alongside themas they're about to do something
foreign and different and scary.
Right, I'm going to walk intothis big building by myself, as
a an adult, to do an interview.
How nice to.
It's actually a nice thing tohave someone drive you so you
don't have to worry about whereto park your car and all that
kind of stuff.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (27:22):
Those are all important, I think,
connection building things yeahI don't get into thinking that's
enabling and that it's thiskind of the negative connotation
that's developed over the yearsfrom the mainly from the
substance abuse field and you'reenabling them to be addicted by
not allowing them to experienceconsequences and stuff.
Dr. Amy Moore (27:46):
You're enabling them to be addicted to living at
home.
That's about the same as theirfive year plan.
Is that?
I want to live with mommy anddaddy?
What are your?
Thoughts on the gap year.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (27:58):
Oh, I love it.
It didn't exist when I wasgrowing up.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:04):
That would not have been tolerated.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (28:05):
No, you're going to travel for a year.
You're going to do other stuff.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:09):
No, and even.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (28:11):
I had.
It reflects on my orientationat the time when my son was
graduating from college.
He was going to go to medicalschool and he decided to spend a
year and go to Korea and teachEnglish and I thought, well,
that's not good, Maybe he won'tcome back or this is not going
to work out, or it wouldn't be agood thing, and he said Dad if
(28:33):
I don't do it now, I'll never doit because I'll get to medical
school and I'll be working onfamily.
I just want to take this year toit.
I couldn't argue with that.
It made a lot of sense to me,but there was a little bit of
anxiety, concern about that.
I like not going to schoolanymore.
Maybe I'll push off medicalschool for another year or two
(28:54):
or something.
I didn't know what was going tohappen, but he was pretty clear
.
He went.
Great experience came back,went to medical school.
Has that rich kind ofexperience in his history of
being in a different country.
Dr. Amy Moore (29:08):
Yeah, my youngest actually took a gap year and a
half and did a couple ofinternships.
He traveled internationallywith the Youth Symphony so he
got to perform in the SydneyOpera House as a flute player
and really just spent some timedecompressing from the nightmare
(29:30):
that going to school duringCOVID was and then just making
sure that what he thinks hewants to do with his life really
was what he wanted to do withhis life.
And so now he's back in school,double majoring in music,
performance and psychology, andhe has a five-year plan.
And that wasn't something thatwe did officially, just it has
(29:51):
evolved.
Something that we didofficially, just it has evolved.
I found the people whostruggled the most with my child
taking a gap year were myparents?
oh sure that my parents justdidn't get it at all yeah,
that's very far.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (30:08):
yeah, that's where I'm going back to my
growing up and my parents saying, oh, that's not going to happen
.
So you know, yeah, and myparents were educated.
Dr. Amy Moore (30:18):
So that was crazy .
Like you go to high school,then you go to college, then you
go to grad school.
Do you know that I was a juniorin high school before I
realized that college wasoptional.
Is that right was optional, isthat right?
I just grew up thinkingeveryone automatically goes to
(30:39):
college and so it wasn't until Iwas applying to colleges that I
realized some people aren'tdoing that yeah, yeah, it's, and
it's there.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (30:50):
There are some tough situations where the
young adult decided they don'twant to go to college and it's
already been planned.
I had this family I worked withand they had saved money and
this oldest son was going to goto the school in Montana, I
think it was and they alreadyhad his father went there and
(31:11):
they had some kind of specialdeal where the price was reduced
or something, maybe because ofthe father's involvement there.
I don't know.
But he just decided whathappened was he ended up having
a girlfriend and she was goingto stay locally, and so he
decided I don't think I'm goingto go and maybe I'll spend a
(31:31):
year here working or whatever.
And maybe I'll spend a yearhere working or whatever.
But it was real hard for theparents to accept that, because
they had this vision about howit was going to be and he had a
different vision at the time.
So we ended up deliveringpizzas that was his job and then
(31:51):
finally decided that I think hewanted to be a welder or
something like that.
He was a skilled trades andthat's where he ended up,
training at that.
Ok, if that's what you reallywant to do, but I think it was.
There was some real kind ofadded.
(32:21):
That's part of a let it goprocess for parents, because
probably for all of us early onwe have some expectations about
what's going to happen with thishigh school and then they're
going to go to college and goingto do these things and to be
able to say maybe they mighttake a different turn, might do
something different and be opento that.
(32:43):
Supporting that, I think, isreally important.
Dr. Amy Moore (32:47):
And what are the consequences of not being
supportive of that idea?
Not?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (32:52):
being supportive of that idea.
Certainly, there's a good bitof conflict around that, as
there was in this situation thatI described.
There was a lot of anger, a lotof frustration, and the parents
were clearly disappointed andwondered if this, and he ended
up breaking up with a girlfriend.
But he stayed in the housedelivering pizzas, I think, for
(33:16):
maybe a couple of years until hefigured out OK, this is what he
really wanted to do and thenpursued this kind of welding
opportunity.
But it was a it was anuncomfortable situation.
Here he is he's now 19.
He's 20.
He's delivering pizzas.
He's now 19,.
He's 20, he's delivering pizzas.
He's in the basement and theydon't have a lot of contact with
him.
He's not doing realcommunicative with them and
(33:43):
they're wondering is he going todo something different?
And I don't know what promptedhim to all at once think okay, I
want to do something in theskilled trades.
But somehow that came to himand then he decided to move in
that direction and has done wellat that.
He did try community college.
A couple of classes just didn'tgo, didn't work out.
(34:04):
So he just wasn't into going toschool at that point and
somehow got the idea that hecould go into the skilled trades
.
I wish more young adults wouldlook at those options in the
skilled trades.
There's so much of a bias, Ithink, in our culture that you
got to go to college.
That's where that somehowyou're kind of a status issue in
(34:28):
some way.
And yet if you look at theearning power, if you go into
the skilled trades and you earna certain amount of money over
time compared to the collegestudent who comes out with a
degree in, I don't know,communications or something and
bounce around.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:43):
Some jobs there's not a lot of gap in the income
over a lifetime period.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (34:49):
There's the kind of status everybody should
go to college or there'ssomething wrong with you if
you're not going to college andthat's a shame that that kind of
view.
Sandy Zamalis (34:57):
I mentioned in a previous podcast that I really
think that college is the newhigh school for our kids because
my mom in the seventies or no,probably sixties, late sixties
when she was in high school theyhad all sorts of like
enrichment and interactiveactivities.
Now this is out in Californiaat the time, so in her world she
(35:18):
would say why don't you take aclass on mystery writing?
I don't have that option, butthat was how she grew up.
She got to try all of thesethings.
There wasn't this rigid sort oflike high school I would say
syllabus that we're running downright now.
And so none of the really trialand error stuff comes into play
(35:38):
until college, and then it'salmost, like you're saying, a
little too late.
So kids that would maybe thrivein more hands-on career like
welding or electrical work orthose kinds of trades, kinds of
things, you either have to knowthat really early on in high
school and we'd have a.
We frown upon that a little bit, I think, in some high school
(35:59):
communities, some areas.
We don't necessarily value it,but it would have been great for
them and then.
But instead we push them on thecollege track, which maybe is
not the right path for them.
But if they could try it sooner, we could maybe get them more
confident and building towardsthat launch a little bit easier,
much quicker.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (36:21):
Yeah, maybe trigger their interest.
I'm just thinking about it.
I went to when I was in highschool.
I did wood shop and metal shop.
I don't know if they have thatand I don't think my son ever
did anything like that.
I don't think that wasavailable.
Dr. Amy Moore (36:35):
My son took a drafting course.
I remember that.
Sandy Zamalis (36:38):
And I remember my husband tells stories.
My husband's a mechanicalengineer and he tells stories
about cause.
My husband's pretty can bepretty domineering when he wants
something and he wanted to be.
He always wanted to be.
He's a car guy.
I always wanted to be amechanical engineer.
He always wanted to buildengines.
He wanted to work in DetroitLike he had a whole vision for
his life.
And so he walked in to theguidance counselor and was like
(37:01):
I'm taking metal shop.
And she was like arguing himout of it Cause he was on the
college track.
And he was like no, I'm takingmetal shop.
And he took metal shop one andmetal shop two and he said by
far hands down, best two classeshe ever took and he uses it
still today, which I think iskudos to him.
But for most kids they're goingto be like, oh okay, I should
(37:23):
go this way it takes a certainamount of fortitude to have
those kinds of programs atschool.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (37:31):
How do kids even know about the
opportunities in the skilledtrades?
They don't learn about it.
So if they don't go to college,then what do they do?
Flounder around a bit, try tofigure out what they might want
to do.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:44):
Absolutely All right.
So, speaking of college, what Isee frequently is conflict that
occurs when kids have gone awayto school and then they're home
for Christmas break or they'rehome for summer break.
They've had all of thisindependence while they're away
at school.
They're able to manage theirown schedules, what time they
(38:05):
come and go, and now they'vecome home and the high school
rules that the parents had inplace haven't been adjusted.
So what are your thoughts onnegotiating that?
What should that look like?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (38:19):
I'm sure both of you probably had those
experiences.
I've certainly had those wherethe kids are up late and they're
clanging pots around.
I got to get up and go to workthe next day.
Dr. Amy Moore (38:29):
At 2 am.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (38:29):
they're cooking, they're cooking,
something they had stayed uplate in school.
Dr. Amy Moore (38:34):
I don't know we got through it.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (38:37):
But the other thing that occurred when
they came home for those breaksand then if they were home in
the summer, was now I had toworry about when they were out
late, where they were, when theywere at school.
I slept like a baby.
I don't know what was happening.
I remember my daughter went offto school a local school and a
(38:58):
conservative Christian collegeand she called me and one day
and said I was out at threeo'clock at this guy's apartment.
My girlfriend and I went overto this guy's apartment I think
she was hoping that there'd besome shock value to that and I
said oh, I don't know, I wasjust sound asleep last night.
Sandy Zamalis (39:18):
I didn't know that.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (39:19):
Okay, how are other things going?
Dr. Amy Moore (39:21):
for you.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (39:23):
But it was like, oh, she's experienced that
freedom.
That's fine.
I don't know about it, I'msleeping, that's fine.
But when they're home andthey're coming home at 3 o'clock
that changes things all at once.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:37):
Because it impacts your ability, it steps
on your toes.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (39:41):
Absolutely yeah.
I mean, you're kind ofwell-being, your sense of just
well.
You end up feeling back intothat more responsible role as a
parent.
When they're out that they are,they in the ditch, do they
drive off the road, what, what'shappening, type of thing.
So I had two girls and a boy.
(40:02):
I was more strict with the twogirls.
They couldn't go downtownminneapolis to the night
nightclub.
That's not going to happen, andI think they appreciate it.
They would not let their kidsget down there now.
No way.
They're even more clamped downon their kids than I was.
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (40:21):
Well, I had three boys and so I'm on the lenient
side of rule setting, simplybecause I had a philosophy that
I needed to know where they wereand who they were with and
everything else was negotiable.
And until they gave me a reasonto think that would not work,
that system would not work, wewent with that system and I
(40:44):
think I got super lucky that thesystem worked.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (40:47):
They didn't push those boundaries, yeah good
, super lucky that the systemworked.
They didn't push thoseboundaries.
Sandy Zamalis (40:51):
Yeah good.
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Dr. Amy Moore (41:48):
I want to talk about paying rent.
Okay, that's a point ofcontention among parents, from
family to family right, wheresome families think that if you
are going to live at home youneed to pay rent and other
families would never chargetheir children rent.
What are your thoughts on thepros and cons of that?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (42:08):
I pretty much say that if you're living
at home, and I think I get goodagreement across all the parents
that I work with you're eithergoing to be working or you're
going to be going to school oryou're going to be some
combination of that.
Doing nothing is not acceptable.
That's not an alternative planC or D that doesn't work.
Alternative plan C or D thatdoesn't work.
So if they are working andthat's a good thing and if
(42:32):
they're full-time, I like tomake the argument that and
they're living at home let'screate the environment that
would be most like what it wouldbe like to be living on their
own.
So that means that they paysome level of rent, not the full
price they'd have to pay outthere.
(42:55):
But I also encourage parents tobank that money and then use it
to help them when they do moveto an apartment at some point in
time.
But they need to be cookingmeals, they need to be cleaning
the room, they need to becleaning the room, they need to
be doing their laundry, theyneed to be responsible as if
they were living with a roommatein a roommate situation.
(43:16):
So I think the closer you canget to creating that kind of
environment that feels likethey're living like a roommate,
you're treating them like anadult and they have adult
responsibilities, the easier thetransition is.
I might as well be living on myown because I don't have anybody
telling me what time to come inand I, yeah, good idea.
(43:37):
Yes, I've had some people say Ilike to try to make it so
uncomfortable to be at home thatthey're going to want to leave
to be at home, that they'regoing to want to leave.
One person this was a kid whowas smoking weed and giving it
to his younger kids and theytook him out of his room and put
an air mattress in the hallway.
(43:57):
He said you have to sleep inthe hallway and I thought I
don't think that works very well.
I had another.
I think I read someplace whereyou were supposed to give them
the smallest possible room, evena closet that they can, that
you put their bed in they wouldget so upset about being
(44:19):
confined that they would leave.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:19):
I don't agree with that approach.
Okay, I want to thank you forgiving me a different
perspective just now on the rent, because I was in the camp of
I'm paying my mortgage anyway.
I don't need my children tocontribute to that, and so I
felt, look, the economy's hardenough as it is.
They need their money.
I would never take it from them, and so it had not occurred to
(44:41):
me that, again, that's ascaffolding opportunity.
That's an opportunity toapproximate what it'll be like
when they are on their own,helps them budget their money.
And I have agreed with parentswho have saved that money when
they have charged theirchildren's rent and given it
back to them to help them.
But I had not considered thevalue to the young adult before.
(45:07):
I thought parents who chargetheir kids rent are trying to
make it so they'll move outright, they'll move out without
rules.
So thank you for thatperspective.
So I hope there are otherlisteners right now who were on
the fence about that or whomaybe had drawn a hard line
about that, that you openedtheir eyes as well.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (45:29):
Sure, I think you get to be reasonable.
If they're taking classes andare working part-time probably
not charging something at thatpoint, but they're working
full-time they need to be anadult participant in that family
and that's in thesemulti-generational families.
You have to pay into the family, whether it's called rent, or
(45:49):
you put it into the common potfor the cover, the expenses or
whatever.
But that's just.
That makes sense.
You're in the family here andyou should contribute in some
way to it.
But you can be prettyreasonable about that too.
Sandy Zamalis (46:04):
So what are some key signs?
I know we're coming up close tothe end of our time and we've
talked a lot about launching andwhat a successful launch looks
like, but what are some keythings that you can give to
parents that are listening sothey can start making these
steps towards a successfullaunch that maintains that
connection?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (46:26):
Yeah, I think that I talk about these
practices that parents need toinvest in or strengthen, and it
starts with unconditional love,no matter what.
That, to me, secures therelationship, creates this sense
that when they're out there ontheir own and they're stumbling
around, they know, no matterwhat, whether they're doing well
(46:48):
or not, their parents love them.
And then I talk about gettingcloser to your kids, which is
somewhat counterintuitive.
Wait a minute, you should bebacking off, shouldn't you?
No, back off of the control anddirection, but get closer in
terms of supporting their pathforward, their new identity, how
they're trying to develop theiridentity and their independence
(47:09):
.
And then I talk about thepractice of the healing,
practices of apology andforgiveness, where I have a lot
of parents and I think I alwayssay parents are the guiltiest
segment of our society.
Oh, I didn't think I did itright, I must have done
something wrong or whatever.
And if that's the case, theyneed to just apologize for it.
(47:29):
Let go of the guilt that way.
And if that's the case, theyneed to just apologize for it.
Let go of the guilt that way.
And if there's some resentmenton the young adult's side, that
will soften that up too.
And then you get to the pointof, okay, you bring the
unconditional love forward withnow, the backbone, which there's
a difference betweenunconditional love and
(47:50):
unconditional approval forbehavior.
So you have to say, okay, Ilove you and these are our rules
.
We have certain principles orcertain values honesty, keeping
your promises, being trustworthyand those are the things that
create a certain firmness, thatgives the platform that they
(48:12):
have to stand on their own.
I like to think of a youngadult leaning on the parent like
this and because the parent ishelping, doing everything for
them, and what you don't want todo is just drop off because
they'll fall down and you don'twant to push them over.
That's doing, but you want tostand up.
(48:34):
So they have to stand up.
Now, they have to stand up ontheir own.
That's when you say no.
That's when you say no, theseare our boundaries or our
limitations on that.
So that stage is reallyimportant and I tell parents or
ask the question how do I knowif I'm doing the right?
thing if I'm combining the loveand backbone in my approach and
(48:55):
I say ask yourself threequestions.
Am I making this decision ortaking this action out of love
and not out of fear, anxiety,frustration, resentment, anger,
those types of things?
Secondly, is my decision or myaction consistent with my values
, that is, I believe in honestyand being trustworthy and
(49:19):
keeping your promises and thosetypes of things.
And then the third questionthey ask is my decision or my
actions likely to increase theirindependence or their
dependence?
I can't give advice on everydecision a parent has to make,
but can give you some.
Here's a way to test.
Okay, I got to make a difficultdecision.
(49:40):
I'm getting pushed right now bythis young adult to do
something or they don't, I'msure I want to do.
Go through those threequestions and then that final
stage to do.
Go through those threequestions and then that final
stage, final practice, is theletting go.
And I encourage parents to writea letter.
That is a way of saying goodbyeto the young adult, as if they
are going off to Europe orsomething and you may never see
(50:02):
them again.
And in that letter you say Ilove you, I have such great
hopes for you.
And these are the things thatI've enjoyed in you over the
years.
Maybe these are some things Iregretted.
I wished I could have donesomething more here and you just
send that, give that letter tothem, and all three of my kids
(50:22):
have that letter, so they knowthat love that I have for them
and they know how my belief inthem, that I have for them, and
they know how my belief in themthat I communicated in that
letter and it's it.
Was it they could find it or not?
Now they have the experience ofthat, with me giving him that
letter so that's the letting gopart to the last part of it.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:42):
So I love that.
I think that's beautiful.
Sandy Zamalis (50:47):
Yeah, I'm like gonna, I'm going to make a point
about it.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (50:54):
I can't keep it together.
Sandy Zamalis (50:56):
No, I like that thought.
I like that chapter in yourbook too, where you walk through
not the letter part but evenjust letting your kids know what
you like about them and workingthrough that process with,
because they don't always knowit, we don't always say enough
of those things, so having it inwriting would be beautiful.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (51:16):
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (51:17):
Yeah, I.
A couple of months ago I wasthinking about my middle son
while I was in church and I hadthis overwhelming need to call
him right then and tell him.
And so I got up from being inthe middle of church service,
went outside and called him andsaid look, I'm not calling you
(51:38):
for any particular reason,except to tell you how cool I
think you are, how amazing Ithink you are, just told him
several things that I justreally love about him, and I
cried through the wholeconversation.
But I just needed him to know,because I was overwhelmed with
(51:59):
just these loving thoughts abouthim in the moment, and I
thought I really ought to dothat more often, like every time
I think you talk about in yourbook, when you're frustrated
with your young adult child,like it helps to go back and
look at pictures of them whenthey were younger or to reflect
on happy memories, and so Ithink that when those happy
(52:22):
memories or really lovingthoughts pop into our minds, we
ought to share them right away,and it's so easy with texting
now too, right.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (52:29):
Yeah, that's so nice that you followed that
urge, that intuitive kind ofdesire to do that.
I would hope most parents woulddo that too and not say oh, and
then they might think it'scorny or they might not like it
or it might be awkward.
Just take the time to say youlove them.
Take the time to say how muchthey matter and how important
(52:49):
they are are to you.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:51):
now I'm gonna get emotional I'm sure he thought I
was crazy in the moment, likebut he won't forget that I'll
bet, but it it had to land in away that made him understand
that I think he's so specialyeah yeah, yeah, jack.
How can our listeners find outmore about all of these great
(53:14):
pieces of advice you gave today?
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (53:17):
Give a little pitch on my book, which
is the parents.
It says Jack's copy on there.
The parents launch code lovingand letting go of our young
adults, and that's what theloving piece is important to me,
because it's got to be both.
We have to love them.
Dr. Amy Moore (53:33):
At one point I thought about.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (53:34):
I had a different title love to let them
go or something like that, butit really is putting those two
things together and then my, soit's available on Amazon, and
then my website is calledparentslettinggocom, so there's
a lot of information in there.
People want to go to my websiteand sign up.
I do these blogs periodicallyand there's a lot of information
(53:57):
on the website, too, that mostof the blogs that I've written
I'm up to about 150 of the blogsright now address issues that
have come up with parents,parents of young adults that I'm
working with.
So there's typically, if you'vegot a question, how do I deal
with this?
It's likely something that I'vedealt with in one of those
blogs too.
So thank you for asking me,matt.
Dr. Amy Moore (54:17):
Absolutely.
Our listeners just get soexcited about the advice that
they typically want more, and sowe love to be able to offer
them resources from our guests,especially when you have a book
that they can just go buy anddevour, like Sandy and I both
did as well.
Dr Jack, thank you so much forbeing with us today.
We really appreciate your timeand your insights and your
(54:39):
wisdom, and I just so muchappreciate that you have devoted
your entire practice and careerto this really hard stage of
parenting, so well needed andexciting to be able to have a
resource to point people to fromnow on.
Dr. Jack Stoltzfus (54:56):
Yeah, it's a pleasure to be with you.
Thank you for having me.
I've enjoyed this, and yourinsights and your questions are
really right, right on targetwith this.
Dr. Amy Moore (55:06):
Well, good, all right.
Moms, Thank you so much forbeing with us today.
If you like us, please followus on Instagram and Facebook at
the Brainy Moms.
If you would rather see ourfaces, we are on YouTube at the
Brainy Moms, and we would loveit if you would give us a
five-star rating and review onApple Podcasts so that we can
reach more moms just like you.
(55:27):
That is all the smart stuff wehave for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter.
We're going to catch you nexttime.
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