June 23, 2025 • 44 mins
What if we approached teen technology and social media use more like teaching someone to drive rather than simply restricting access until they're "old enough"? Media literacy expert Jennifer Berger joins Dr. Amy and Sandy on the Brainy Moms podcast to introduce her groundbreaking program, the Social Media Driver's License, which does exactly that.
After two decades of teaching media literacy to over 10,000 youth, Jennifer noticed a troubling pattern in how we approach teens and technology. Most resources emphasized monitoring, restriction, and punishment – approaches that often backfire by damaging parent-teen relationships and failing to build critical digital skills. Her response? Create a collaborative, skill-building program that prepares tweens and teens to navigate online spaces independently.
The Social Media Driver's License features a unique dual-track approach. Kids ages 10-14 participate in a 10-session course led by older teenagers sharing hard-earned wisdom about social media navigation. Parents simultaneously access an audio course covering essential topics like handling online safety concerns, addressing problematic content, and maintaining healthy conversations about technology. This structure recognizes that eventually, teens will access technology, making preparation more valuable than restriction.
Perhaps most refreshing is Berger's emphasis on maintaining connection. Rather than villainizing teens' digital worlds or implementing rigid, top-down rules, she advocates for genuine curiosity, collaborative boundary-setting, and calm responses when inevitable mistakes occur. As Dr. Amy notes during the conversation, "Connection is the number one buffer against mental health crisis," making this approach particularly valuable for supporting teen wellbeing.
Ready to transform your approach to parenting in the digital age? Check out this episode!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:00):
Hi, smart moms and dads, welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningArcs Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm Dr Amy Moore here withSandy Zimalis.
Sandy and I are gonna bring youa conversation with Jennifer
Berger.
Jennifer is the executivedirector of Ready Set Screen and
has been a media literacyexpert for two decades.
(00:22):
Through her previous work,jennifer taught more than 10,000
youth how to question mediamessages and improve their
mental health.
She has a BA in communicationstudies from the University of
Michigan, ann Arbor, but sheconsiders her in-classroom media
literacy educator work her mostvaluable education.
She is here to talk to us abouther new program called the
(00:46):
Social Media Driver's License,so let's welcome her.
Hi, jennifer, we're so excitedto have this conversation with
you today.
Thanks for having me.
I love it.
Here's why I'm so excited totalk to you today.
Love it.
(01:07):
Here's why I'm so excited totalk to you today.
We've had conversations aboutteens and social media on
several different episodes andnone of them have truly aligned
with my belief about teens andsocial media use and teens and
phone use.
In fact, I've gotten somebacklash for some of the stands
that I have taken on not usingthe phone as a consequence for
(01:33):
teenagers, for example, don'ttake your phone away, your kid's
phone away and my belief as apsychologist is this is
research-based.
But connection is the numberone buffer against mental health
crisis, and when we sever thatconnection, we're, I think,
doing more harm than good, andso this becomes not a black and
(01:58):
white issue, but let's talkabout boundaries, and let's talk
about boundaries andnegotiation and healthy use of
social media and phones, and sowhen I read your bio, when I
looked at your application to beon our show, I thought, finally
, we're going to have an entireconversation with someone who
(02:20):
aligns with what I think is thehealthiest way to view social
media and phone use in teens.
Jennifer Berger (02:30):
That is wonderful, yeah, and I had not
found any program, product oranything that did not have a
severely monitoring kind ofmentality to it, and that was
really frustrating for me assomeone who had been teaching
teens for so long the way I hadwith my organization that taught
(02:54):
media literacy, teaches medialiteracy, and so it was very
similar for me in a lot of ways.
I was like teens are not goingto vibe with this.
How can we make it natural forthem and how can we make it more
natural and collaborative forparents, instead of the
(03:15):
monitoring bit of it, which I'msure we'll get into.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:19):
Yeah, and I think that how does that train
self-regulation skills when weare doing all the regulating?
Jennifer Berger (03:29):
Exactly Kids need to learn, especially in
this age group that we'reworking with ages 10 to 14 or so
, 8 to 15, 7 to 16.
It really has everything to dowith self-regulation when kids
are online because they're notwith you, they're not with
parents, they're on their own,they're out on their own.
(03:50):
I talk about it like you'vesent them out into a field.
You don't know where they areExactly.
You've sent them into what canbe a seedy bar sometimes and
without skills that we can teachthem and media literacy skills
to really be able toself-regulate and be able to
make their own judgment, to thebest of their ability, about
(04:13):
what's okay and what's not andwhat to do.
If it's not, then we are doingthem the best service we
possibly can.
Sandy Zamalis (04:21):
So let's start at the beginning.
How do you help parents andfamilies or educators really
start the process of medialiteracy education with our kids
?
Jennifer Berger (04:30):
to do there first, essentially, is give
everybody a level, setbackground and set of education,
set of information about howsocial media works and how to
(04:55):
have these differentconversations with your parents
and how to have theseconversations with your kids all
around.
Really.
So it's 360 degrees.
There are two tracks in thesocial media driver's license
course which, by the way, reallyfunctions to give the kids the
skills that they need in orderto make their way on the
internet, online social mediaand using a smartphone.
(05:18):
And it also gives their parentsthe opportunity to give their
kids an incentive to learn morebefore they are given a
smartphone, for example, or asocial media account, allowed to
have a social media account.
And the two tracks are a coursefor kids and teens, which is a
(05:42):
10-session, 20-minute persession course, pretty
significant and comprehensive.
That where older teens aregiving the kids who are watching
advice essentially on whatthey've learned about social
media and smartphones and whatthey want to pass on to them.
(06:02):
So it's not a talking head,it's not a parent, it's not an
adult saying wah-wah, it'steenagers, older teenagers.
And then the parallel track isan audio course for parents that
talks about each session of thekids' course and talks about
some of the things that the kidsare learning, but then goes
(06:24):
deeper into parent talk, goesdeeper into the serious things
that like online predators, forexample.
We don't really talk directlywith kids about online predators
in this course for variousreasons, including not scaring
them too much, but we go to adifferent level with the parent
companion, as we call it.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:47):
And then do you give advice to the parent on how
to talk to their kids aboutpredators?
Jennifer Berger (06:54):
Yes, we absolutely do.
We have a specialist who wespeak with, who we spoke with
during the podcast, who, audiocourse, we call it podcast too,
but it's inside the course whois an internet safety specialist
for parents who gives somereally great tips and really
good advice based on her ownexperience, actually as a person
(07:17):
who was almost a victim of anonline predator.
But it's not just that, it'salso how do you have these
conversations with your kidsabout their own tech use, about
their digital wellness, as wecall it, creating habits that
are going to be good for them ontheir own, in a self-regulating
(07:37):
way, and not a top-down way.
Always it takes a combinationof those two things.
But we talk a lot about whatkids won't respond to.
And we talk with a parentingspecialist who works with
(07:59):
resolving conflict betweenparents and kids, who gives some
really excellent advice forparents how to have these
conversations in a way, again,that is collaborative, that
meets the kids where they areand becomes a true conversation
instead of okay, sign thiscontract, like, sign this tech
(08:20):
agreement for our family rightnow, that doesn't change for the
next three years.
So the advice it goes deep,essentially.
Sandy Zamalis (08:31):
You're trying to create connection.
It sounds like really You'rereally trying to track and help
parents understand the nuancesbut also reach the kids, and I
love the fact that you're usinglike a driver's analogy so it
feels like a learner's permit,right when?
you have to demonstrate amaturity.
You have to demonstrate thatyou're able to handle the tools.
(08:53):
And how do you help parentsnavigate when there is a blip
right or if the child makes amisstep, and if we're not trying
to put really harsh and hardboundaries, but instead help
them grow and learn to use thetool safely?
(09:13):
What do you tell parents forwhen those hiccups happen?
Because they will?
Jennifer Berger (09:20):
One of our experts, who was on our who is
on our audio course, talks aboutthe best thing that her mom had
done for her, which was theblip occurred.
Something happened.
She posted a picture of herselfthat she shouldn't have.
She sent a photo to anotherperson who she shouldn't have
(10:03):
and the story essentially waslike my mother was very calm.
She was freaking out inside andinstead of freaking out at me,
she kept it calm and asked mequestions, and she also had the
point of view in this story andwhat other many the
psychotherapists who we had oneverybody was essentially says
everything can be fixed.
This is not the end of theworld Like what happened here,
and I don't really mean todismiss it by saying not the end
(10:24):
of the world, but this is notthe end of everything Like.
This is just something thathappens, and the more that we
can speak to them that way andthe more that we can hear them
instead of judging, the betteroff we really are going to be
with kids.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:42):
So how did you find yourself at this philosophy
right?
Was this a if you can't beatthem, join them.
They're going to get phonesanyway.
Or did you come at this from adifferent perspective?
Jennifer Berger (10:58):
I came at it from a perspective of being a
media literacy educator forabout 20 years, working with so
many teenagers who felt likethey were alone because their
parents were villainizing theirworld, their media, their phone,
their it wasn't phone 20 yearsago, but their stuff that they
(11:21):
really liked, and I really cameto the conclusion, just by
working with them, that theyweren't really being listened to
and that just went on for allthe years that I have been doing
that work, like up until now.
When I first was doing thiswork I was pretty young, so I
was coming out from the teenagerperspective Like that's what I
could understand at that timeand I think that really has
(11:58):
benefited the work overall.
Mental health crisis hittingthe newspapers and Meta and
other companies that have socialmedia products really not
helping kids at all stay safeand in many ways harming them,
and the legislators not keepingkids safe either and schools not
(12:27):
having the funding that theyneeded to really institute the
really excellent levels of medialiteracy that are actually
available but are not funded.
Right now I realized that guesswhat?
We need a stopgap measure.
Like something terrible ishappening Kids are committing
(12:49):
suicide, kids are ending up inthe emergency room after
committing self-harm at rates wehave not seen before, and
talking about how the thingsthat created these feelings for
them came from social media, andI just was so horrified and so
(13:12):
saddened by that.
But I knew that I had beenteaching the right skills for so
long that I couldn't not createthis.
I couldn't not create thesocial media driver's license.
Just seeing how much preventionwould have helped, would have
perhaps actually stopped thatand will also prevent the next
(13:36):
teen mental health crisis thatmight be coming down the pipe,
which is why we're reaching 10to 14-year-olds and not 15 to
18-year-olds at this time.
We're going for mental healthoutcomes prevention right now.
So the last piece of thatreally is that they are going to
get phones anyway.
We can absolutely wait.
(14:00):
Jonathan Haidt, his book theAnxious Generation.
One of the pieces of advice iswait until they're 16.
There's wait until eight.
That talks about not givingyour kids a phone until after
eighth grade, and my perspectiveis that is all great.
Please, parents, please do that.
(14:22):
We should all do that.
And also, eventually they'regoing to get their phone.
So then what happens?
And so what the social mediadriver's license does is it
helps us be ready for thatmoment.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:39):
So I'm pausing for a minute because we had a
conversation about JonathanHaidt's book right before you
popped on.
I've historically enjoyed hiswork, but I found that the
Anxious Generation was asweeping generalization of the
(15:02):
actual state of mental healthamong adolescents.
The actual state of mentalhealth among adolescents that
the most recent meta-analyticwork that has come out and
looked at the correlation iswhat he was saying.
Right, but the associationbetween social media and phone
use and teen mental health isn'tnearly as strong as he made.
It seem that it's so nuancedand that those relationships
(15:26):
that we have with our kids arecontributors.
The relationships that theyhave in person with one another
are contributors.
The tragedy that COVIDlockdowns created in severing
social connection contributors.
Right, there's so manycontributors, and so I think
(15:47):
social media is a huge piece andthat what you're doing is
phenomenal.
Right, that's a piece that weactually can speak into, that we
actually can give tangiblethings to help our kids make
responsible choices, healthychoices, whereas working on
(16:08):
those in-person relationships isharder.
Jennifer Berger (16:14):
Can you clarify a little bit for me about the
in-person relationship, workingon the in-person relationships?
Dr. Amy Moore (16:20):
Sure, teaching, I'm just going to use one
example.
So teaching families to setlimits on social media use right
, that is a tangible task.
That, hey, here's some tips forhow to have that conversation.
Here's how to collaborate oncreating that.
Those limits and thoseboundaries those limits and
(16:40):
those boundaries right, whichcan have dramatic impacts right
Limits, those limits are goingto have big impacts.
Teaching every family how tocommunicate effectively in all
(17:11):
situations is a larger seizuretasks and it's influenced by how
you were parented, how yourparents are continuing to tell
you how you should parent yourchild, your culture, your
socioeconomic status, theparenting style that you have
adopted right.
And then, once you've adopted aparenting style, you entrench
yourself in right and you're notsuper open to trying a
different one, right.
So it is a bigger, more complextask to coach those in-person
(17:34):
daily relationships withinfamily ecosystems and then the
friendship ecosystems at schooland in after school activities.
So it's just bigger thantraining a tangible conversation
around setting boundaries oversocial media.
So, like, you've identifiedsomething that is doable.
Jennifer Berger (18:00):
Yeah, interpersonal relationships.
Yes, the interpersonalrelationship aspect is what I'm
hearing and there was a lotright there and I want to say do
agree, and I'm not.
I don't really want to agree ordisagree necessarily about what
the science says, but you'reabsolutely right that, whether
it's happening or not, whethersocial media is to blame,
(18:23):
whether smartphones are to blame, we know there is some sort of
problem happening withsmartphones and social media.
What is the most humanitarianthing that we can do about this?
Not ridding everyone of theirsmartphones or taking every
smartphone away from13-year-olds or any of that.
(18:44):
But it does fall into the zonefor me of we don't really know
and it's really hard to studyall of these factors.
And so what can we do?
It's like some of the Britishlaws and European laws around
(19:07):
dangerous substances, aroundchemicals and things like that.
We're not exactly sure, but wedon't like it right now, and so
let's do something at least.
But yes, those interpersonal,to speak to the interpersonal
skill piece, to speak to theinterpersonal skill piece, there
(19:28):
are a lot of things I'm not asmuch in the business of being
like.
Here's how you have thisconversation with your child,
because I'm not an actualparenting expert, I'm a media
literacy expert.
What I do know is what doesn'twork, and what I do know is what
, when you're saying these inthis entrenched way of parenting
, you know, we all know thatwhen kids become teenagers, it's
(19:52):
like your kitten has become acat, where it's a different,
there's a different person.
This is a different world in alot of ways.
How do parents adjust theirparenting for that?
And one of the things is notvillainizing their media, like
(20:13):
not shutting down theconversation, not creating super
rigid rules that are top downwhere you've had no conversation
about it, because the kids willjust most kids, I should say
many kids will act out againstthat and will be sneaky, even if
they seem even if they seem,they have seemed up until like
age nine as being like aquote-unquote good kid.
(20:36):
This is just.
This is just how the teenagemind works, right.
It's asserting independence,it's asserting agency.
They want agency.
They want to make their owndecision.
They don't want to be told whatto do, they don't want to be
lectured to.
I would say that there are alot more ways that parents can
turn their kids off to coming tothem, to having the
(21:00):
conversation with them, thanthere are perfect ways to have
the conversation with them, thenthere are perfect ways to have
the conversation.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:06):
Sure, but saying no is paralyzing, and so it's
not just with teenagers.
It's a phenomenon calledpsychological reactance that,
when we are told no, it makes uswant to do the thing even more.
The difference is, as adults,we have fully formed prefrontal
(21:28):
cortexes, right?
So we're able to reason through.
Why are we being told no?
Maybe I should consider some ofthese reasons right.
And that is not happening whenwe are emotional and when Afraid
are emotional, and when afraid,sure, right, because that is a
(21:48):
fear-based reaction.
You're going to take it away,I'm not going to be able to see
my friends, I'm not going to beable to know what's going on in
the world, like.
Those are all fears that thencreate additional resistance for
sure that.
Jennifer Berger (22:00):
But then the parent fears that create the
rules, create, create.
These rigid rules are also inplay.
Right when the parents?
I'm just really afraid thatshe's going to be contacted by
someone.
These fears of what socialmedia or what the smartphone
(22:28):
could do to their kids isparalyzing them as well.
Sandy Zamalis (22:33):
I was going to say that I think the biggest.
It's a game of whack-a-mole.
I think for parents a lot,because the problem is that the
tech for kids now is so muchmore advanced than anything we
grew up with.
So we're constantly playingcatch up and trying to figure
out where all the loopholes areand what's happening, and it is
a full-time job to try to keepup with that.
(22:54):
So I love you know, from thatsocial media expert side of
things, where you know there's aplace you can go to actually
find out what's happening,what's current.
What should we be super mindfulon so that you're not just
operating out of fear?
Because the reality is it isn'tabout the phone anymore.
Kids have their Chromebooks,they have their watches.
(23:14):
They may not have a phone, butthey've got access to the
internet and everything thatthey do in their video games.
It's not just about socialmedia anymore.
The internet has just blownthat wide open and it's only
going to get more pervasive intohow many ways that they can
access the Internet.
So I'm with you, I think,jennifer.
Jennifer Berger (23:38):
More education.
Sandy Zamalis (23:39):
It's going to help everybody feel more
comfortable because it's notgoing to go away and so, yeah,
you can say no to a phone.
Okay, your child's going tofind another way.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:50):
The internet is ubiquitous.
Sandy Zamalis (23:51):
Yeah, the internet's everywhere.
They'll go to the library.
Jennifer Berger (23:55):
And one thing.
One thing the way that wedefine social media actually
even goes beyond, absolutelygoes beyond, the phone.
The phone is the crux of thewhole thing really.
Once you give your kids a phone, there it is right in their
hand.
But what it is?
It can be YouTube, it can bein-game chats where people are
talking to each other.
There's a lot of content goingon right there.
(24:18):
It can be texting, it can beall of these different things.
So it's not doesn't have to be asocial media company, a social
media platform, to to influencethem.
Just what you're saying.
But it's just so.
The whack-a-mole, thewhack-a-mole metaphor I have
heard many times now and it'sjust not fair.
(24:40):
What we expect of parents rightnow, what we expect of parents
right now, like what the cultureexpects of parents as far as
keeping up with all of that andwatching everything and doing
like Parents have enough, likethere isn't.
There was enough before thisand it's just it's.
(25:02):
It feels very unfair to me.
And then you can't turn to theschools necessarily to do it and
you can't turn to someone elseand the government isn't fixing
it Not that I don't really thinkthat it really would anyone
like that.
Any rules could really beproperly enforced because of the
social media companies, and soit's really all on parents.
And so it's really all onparents, and a recent study
(25:23):
showed that 66% of parents weretotally overwhelmed by their
kids' tech-full lives,essentially, and what we plan to
do with the social mediadriver's license and our
organization, ready Set Screen,is to keep parents up on those
things so they have an idea.
(25:45):
To keep parents up on thosethings so they have an idea.
But in no way would I ever wantparents to feel like they have
to know what all of the featuresin Snapchat are.
They need to know all of thedifferent things you can do and
the things I need to be worriedabout.
And that's exactly this.
Playing whack-a-mole is exactlywhat we try to avoid by giving
(26:06):
their kids, giving kids theskills that they need to start
forming good judgment, at leastto start being smart and
independent and balanced abouttheir tech use.
Sandy Zamalis (26:26):
I love that approach too, because everything
to your point, like everythingin the media, it's all
fear-based.
Like the movie, just a couple,or the Netflix special
Adolescence or whatever thatjust came out, was just
terrifying, and if that's theinput parents are getting, they
need a neutral resource thatjust gives them helpful tools
(26:47):
and information and doesn'tscare their pants off of them
Wanting to lock their kids inthe basement.
Jennifer Berger (26:54):
Never to see the light.
Never to see the light of daythat's right.
Sandy Zamalis (27:02):
Be safe and a chain into your bedpost, I know.
Jennifer Berger (27:06):
There is so much.
There is so much to be.
That's not what I mean.
There is so much reporting.
There are so many stories thatwe can learn about.
There are so many likesextortion, scams and a million
different things.
And if you just watch the, ifyou just watch that go by, then
(27:35):
you will be terrified, becausethe things that happen are
terrifying and and it's justlike with kidnappings, it's just
with like with stranger danger,it's just like with kidnappings
, it's just like with strangerdanger, it's just like with all
of it.
If you let that consume you andyou let the stories become
trends, become truths in yourmind, then you'll just be more
(27:55):
afraid over and over again.
And so we're like fighting fearwith knowledge.
Essentially, is what we'retrying to do, in a really
nonjudgmental way, to just likenot interested in judging
parents for whether they lettheir kids look at their tablet
or iPad while they're makingdinner, these kinds of things
that are, of course, recommendedby the American Pediatric
(28:17):
Association, for example, butare just, you know, for some
people, just a lot of peoplejust not realistic essentially.
So it's not what it's about.
It's not about your kid shouldonly have 30 minutes of screen
time or zero minutes of screentime per day, and they should do
.
They should put their phonedown when they come in the room
(28:40):
and they should never have thephone at the dinner table, and
they should.
I am not saying any of thosethings are bad.
I'm just saying if you makethese like I keep saying, if you
keep making these really rigidrules and not having
conversations, then you're inbig trouble.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:58):
So does your program address pornography?
Jennifer Berger (29:01):
Yes, so it addresses on the kid's side.
It addresses what to do whenyou come across quote
inappropriate surprises Because,again, this is for 10 to
14-year-olds.
We don't know what they've seenand what they haven't seen, and
we don't want to be the ones totell them about this.
(29:22):
We know that kids are seeingpornography earlier and earlier,
and sometimes it's not of theirown choosing.
A lot of the time it's not oftheir own choosing to look at it
, and so the conversation aboutthese inappropriate surprises
that we bring to light for thekids is really you are going to
(29:44):
come across something that youdon't think you should be seeing
or that you know that yourparent or caregiver does not
want you to see.
Here's what to do about that.
Almost every adult understandswhat is happening with you and
your as far as what you mighthave seen and feeling shame.
(30:08):
You might feel shame, and thatis natural, and you might feel,
you might feel badly abouthaving seen it, or maybe I don't
think we really say maybe youlooked for it, but it really
talks about it being like anaccidental thing, because that's
really the majority of thiskind of thing Talk to your
trusted adult and we even guidethem through a process of
(30:29):
identifying three trusted adultsin their lives, before we even
get into any of the information,really, because it's not always
your parent who you can talk toabout that we just don't want
to assume.
Go tell your mom or dad thatthis happened.
There are other people you alsocan talk to, potentially.
(30:50):
So here's your come up withyour list of three.
It could be your aunt, it couldbe your grandpa, it could be
your school counselor, it couldbe your coach, a lot of
different people and so talk tothem about what you've seen and
know that they're there to helpyou out and that you did not do
anything wrong.
Dr. Amy Moore (31:11):
And then do you have a corresponding lesson for
on the parent side.
Hey, if your child accidentallycomes across this and they come
to you, this is how you shouldnot respond versus.
This is our suggested response.
Jennifer Berger (31:27):
We have not addressed it specifically.
We talked more about, yes, andthere are other resources out
there.
There are other great resources, a lot of sex education
resources, and so what we triedto do with our audio course
really is talk about things in away that that parents that we
(31:49):
all haven't heard yet,essentially like you, can't find
.
You can't find a conversationvery easily about this thing
called the manosphere that istalking to boys in ways that
most of us do not want our boysto be.
Thinking about women and avariety of different icky things
(32:13):
that you might come across, andtalking with parents about how
to handle that, because, onceagain, it's actually maybe not
all about pornography.
It's actually about, like, howyou are connecting with your
children in the first place.
Right, that will help you dealwith things like accidental or
(32:34):
on purpose pornography exposure.
Dr. Amy Moore (32:37):
I've never heard of the Manosphere.
Jennifer Berger (32:42):
It's a terrifying group of misogynists
who they're influencers.
One of their one, the mostfamous one, is Andrew Tate and a
lot of times what happens isthat these influencers show up
on YouTube, for example, orreally any of the social media
(33:03):
platforms.
But on YouTube, a study wasdone that shows that this is
what happens, like, for example,if a boy, a young man, is
looking for bodybuilding contentand we talked to a parent who
has this exact.
This is exactly her story.
Her son is looking forbodybuilding content, he's
(33:44):
interested in fitness.
He's not like in thesupplements world, he's not.
He's not looking for steroids,he's not.
He's just a good kid who tokeep people engaged.
And so some of the influencersout there are men who are
talking about why women arehorrible, how they don't have
brains, skills, abilities, so onand so forth.
(34:09):
I don't really want to repeat alot of it.
Honestly, I think we can allimagine, sure, but then she said
that her son is coming to thedinner table and being like I
have to be strong because womenare so weak, or some kind of
stuff that their family does notascribe to, because they
(34:33):
believe in equality in theirhousehold, and the mom and dad
are like, how do I even talk tohim about this?
They don't even really knowwhat to say because it's like
nothing that they would haveever said in their family.
But they know that their childgot it online.
So the questions have to start.
(34:53):
It has to be like where did youlearn?
Dr. Amy Moore (34:57):
that.
Okay, so I learned it in themanosphere.
We are calling it, I'm sure hedoesn't say it that way.
Jennifer Berger (35:06):
Yeah, this guy.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:10):
He seemed really cool, right?
And so then, as parents, you go, you're never listening to this
guy again, or tell me more,don't stop listening to that
stuff?
Jennifer Berger (35:21):
that's garbage.
We don't think that, and thenthe conversation has ended like
that.
That is the way that's what theparent audio course is all
(35:48):
about is a parent talking withan expert on the topic, so it's
a conversation between a parentand an expert.
That leads to.
What do I do about that, though?
And some really good, solidadvice for parents, but the
person who we the expert who wespoke with was Andrew Reiner,
who wrote a book called BetterBoys, better Men.
(36:09):
That is really all about thatboy.
His opinion is that boys do nothave resilience Various things
about our culture right now thatare off topic, probably for
this conversation but that thatjust because they're not talking
doesn't mean that they don'thave something to say.
Dr. Amy Moore (36:31):
Yeah.
Jennifer Berger (36:37):
So that's been a fascinating experience, like
learning about that, but alsojust learning about some of the
other many experiences thatparents have been having, like
their daughter turning to themwith their phone and being like
what do I say when she says this?
Like a text, coach me on mytexting, like right now, like
(36:59):
she said this mean thing to me.
Do I write something reallymean back or do I try to
de-escalate this?
You know, but it's mom, what doI say?
Dr. Amy Moore (37:11):
I love that the daughter is even asking them Of
course, yeah, but there can be.
Jennifer Berger (37:17):
But, as anyone who has daughters knows, there
can also be too muchconversation sometimes, so a
balance must be had.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:30):
So you say that I mean that teens love to talk
about technology, right, and so,even though we might hear the
peanuts teacher, as they'retalking about Snapchat and
Instagram and all that they wantto share their lives and what's
important in their lives withus.
And so what are some tips thatyou have for parents?
(37:51):
What are some tips you havewhen your kid comes to you and
is all excited about technologyand you hear the Peanuts teacher
?
Jennifer Berger (38:02):
Don't let on that.
You hate it.
Don't let on that, you don'twant to know about it.
Like with many of theirinterests, oh, let me see, tell
me more.
Like you're just indicatingthat it's safe to talk about
what they see online with you.
You don't have to do it, youdon't have to get on Snapchat,
you don't have to learn how touse any of it, but it's, oh, let
(38:24):
me see, oh, that's really funny, oh that's really cool, or
whatever.
And also, just like I said,just not villainizing.
Just not villainizing.
This is their life.
You know some of our parents wholike hated TV, for example, or
hated sugary cereals, let usknow, all the time, right.
(38:46):
So what did we do when weweren't with them?
A lot of the time, watch waytoo much TV and eat too much
sugary cereal.
So be there with them, be there, watch them, play the game.
Play the game with them.
If they'll play the game withyou.
But they want to talk.
It seems like they don't wantto talk about it.
(39:06):
They're like mom, stop it.
But they do want to talk.
They just don't want to belectured.
They don't want you to do allthe talking.
They want you to do all theasking and you're showing them
by doing the asking that it'sokay to talk about it and that
you're interested.
That is a kind of basicparenting advice, honestly, that
(39:29):
a lot of parenting experts havegiven over the years, but it is
really important and it bearsrepeating over and over again,
really.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:38):
Yeah, absolutely, because a lot of times, as
parents, you see yourself as theexpert.
So your child comes to you,asks you for advice, you give
out the advice and you move onto the next topic.
But you are a little bitparalyzed when you're like, oh,
they want to talk about this andI don't know, I don't know
about this.
So how cool is it then that youcan just turn things around as
(39:59):
a question?
Jennifer Berger (40:00):
That's like the joy I have so much respect for
today's teenagers.
I truly do, and that's one ofthe great things about teenagers
is that they have their ownthoughts.
You talk to a six-year-oldabout this stuff and maybe they
have some basic ideas they wantto talk about on a certain topic
.
But, like a teenager a teenageryou really don't have to be an
(40:21):
expert.
You don't have to be an experton the platforms on the social
media platforms you don't haveto be an expert on platforms.
You don't have to be an experton YouTube.
You don't have to be an experton really like any of the
features of any of these things.
You have to become an expert atasking more questions that
don't sound judgmental, that areliterally open questions.
(40:45):
So that really is, I would saythat is the biggest challenge is
like what questions are goingto be your standard go-tos as
you go into life with a tweenwho's turning into a teen?
Dr. Amy Moore (40:59):
Yeah, good advice .
Okay.
So, jennifer, when does thiscourse come out?
When is it available?
How can our listeners find moreabout it?
Jennifer Berger (41:10):
The course will be available by the time this
podcast airs, and that should beby May 23rd.
What we hope is that parentswill want to take advantage of
this dead zone between the endof school and the beginning of
summer activities, or the end ofsummer activities in the
beginning of school next year,to give their kids this
(41:33):
education, especially if theirkids are dying for a phone.
And it will be availablenationwide, it will be available
online and we will have asliding scale.
So even if some families arenot able to afford our starting
price, which we haven't quitedetermined yet as of this
(41:54):
recording, there will be ways,because we're a nonprofit, we're
not a for-profit.
Our goal is for accessibility.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:04):
And so that website is
socialmediadriverslicenseorg.
Jennifer Berger (42:08):
That website to go to is
socialmediadriverslicenseorg,and you can find out all the
information you need and you canenroll in the course Fantastic.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:20):
Anything that you want to leave our listeners
with that you didn't get to talkabout today.
Jennifer Berger (42:24):
Oh, such a good thank you for asking that.
I always try to ask that aswell.
I think.
Just know that, as the parentof a teen or tween, you're
working with someone who is muchmore turning into an adult and
(42:44):
can start having conversationsthat sound like adult
conversations Not inappropriateadult conversations, just more
grown-up conversations than theyused to be able to.
I think.
Give them that credit, lovethem through that and make sure
they have the knowledge thatthey need to make their own
(43:06):
decisions in the future oncethey leave your nest.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:11):
Yeah, I think that's fantastic advice, because
if they don't learn that in thesafety of our home, they're
going to learn it somewhere.
That's right.
That's right.
Jennifer Berger, thank you somuch for being with us today,
for sharing your wisdom on thissuper important topic.
We really appreciate you takingtime to be with us.
Jennifer Berger (43:34):
Thank you so much, Dr Amy, and thank you
Sandy.
I really appreciate the timeand I hope that your listeners
got something good out of this.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:43):
I'm sure they got lots of cool things Important
too Amazing Great Speaking oflisteners.
Thank you for being with ustoday.
If you like us, please find uson Instagram and Facebook at the
Brainy Moms.
You can watch us on YouTube atthe Brainy Moms and you can go
to our website, thebrainymomscom.
If you would like to seeSandy's work in action, be sure
(44:06):
to hop over to TikTok and findher at thebraintrainerlady.
Look, this is all the smartstuff we have for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter, so we're going to catch
you next time.
Hi, smart moms and dads, welcome to another
episode of the Brainy Momspodcast brought to you today by
LearningArcs Brain TrainingCenters.
I'm Dr Amy Moore here withSandy Zimalis.
Sandy and I are gonna bring youa conversation with Jennifer
Berger.
Jennifer is the executivedirector of Ready Set Screen and
has been a media literacyexpert for two decades.
(00:22):
Through her previous work,jennifer taught more than 10,000
youth how to question mediamessages and improve their
mental health.
She has a BA in communicationstudies from the University of
Michigan, ann Arbor, but sheconsiders her in-classroom media
literacy educator work her mostvaluable education.
She is here to talk to us abouther new program called the
(00:46):
Social Media Driver's License,so let's welcome her.
Hi, jennifer, we're so excitedto have this conversation with
you today.
Thanks for having me.
I love it.
Here's why I'm so excited totalk to you today.
Love it.
(01:07):
Here's why I'm so excited totalk to you today.
We've had conversations aboutteens and social media on
several different episodes andnone of them have truly aligned
with my belief about teens andsocial media use and teens and
phone use.
In fact, I've gotten somebacklash for some of the stands
that I have taken on not usingthe phone as a consequence for
(01:33):
teenagers, for example, don'ttake your phone away, your kid's
phone away and my belief as apsychologist is this is
research-based.
But connection is the numberone buffer against mental health
crisis, and when we sever thatconnection, we're, I think,
doing more harm than good, andso this becomes not a black and
(01:58):
white issue, but let's talkabout boundaries, and let's talk
about boundaries andnegotiation and healthy use of
social media and phones, and sowhen I read your bio, when I
looked at your application to beon our show, I thought, finally
, we're going to have an entireconversation with someone who
(02:20):
aligns with what I think is thehealthiest way to view social
media and phone use in teens.
Jennifer Berger (02:30):
That is wonderful, yeah, and I had not
found any program, product oranything that did not have a
severely monitoring kind ofmentality to it, and that was
really frustrating for me assomeone who had been teaching
teens for so long the way I hadwith my organization that taught
(02:54):
media literacy, teaches medialiteracy, and so it was very
similar for me in a lot of ways.
I was like teens are not goingto vibe with this.
How can we make it natural forthem and how can we make it more
natural and collaborative forparents, instead of the
(03:15):
monitoring bit of it, which I'msure we'll get into.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:19):
Yeah, and I think that how does that train
self-regulation skills when weare doing all the regulating?
Jennifer Berger (03:29):
Exactly Kids need to learn, especially in
this age group that we'reworking with ages 10 to 14 or so
, 8 to 15, 7 to 16.
It really has everything to dowith self-regulation when kids
are online because they're notwith you, they're not with
parents, they're on their own,they're out on their own.
(03:50):
I talk about it like you'vesent them out into a field.
You don't know where they areExactly.
You've sent them into what canbe a seedy bar sometimes and
without skills that we can teachthem and media literacy skills
to really be able toself-regulate and be able to
make their own judgment, to thebest of their ability, about
(04:13):
what's okay and what's not andwhat to do.
If it's not, then we are doingthem the best service we
possibly can.
Sandy Zamalis (04:21):
So let's start at the beginning.
How do you help parents andfamilies or educators really
start the process of medialiteracy education with our kids
?
Jennifer Berger (04:30):
to do there first, essentially, is give
everybody a level, setbackground and set of education,
set of information about howsocial media works and how to
(04:55):
have these differentconversations with your parents
and how to have theseconversations with your kids all
around.
Really.
So it's 360 degrees.
There are two tracks in thesocial media driver's license
course which, by the way, reallyfunctions to give the kids the
skills that they need in orderto make their way on the
internet, online social mediaand using a smartphone.
(05:18):
And it also gives their parentsthe opportunity to give their
kids an incentive to learn morebefore they are given a
smartphone, for example, or asocial media account, allowed to
have a social media account.
And the two tracks are a coursefor kids and teens, which is a
(05:42):
10-session, 20-minute persession course, pretty
significant and comprehensive.
That where older teens aregiving the kids who are watching
advice essentially on whatthey've learned about social
media and smartphones and whatthey want to pass on to them.
(06:02):
So it's not a talking head,it's not a parent, it's not an
adult saying wah-wah, it'steenagers, older teenagers.
And then the parallel track isan audio course for parents that
talks about each session of thekids' course and talks about
some of the things that the kidsare learning, but then goes
(06:24):
deeper into parent talk, goesdeeper into the serious things
that like online predators, forexample.
We don't really talk directlywith kids about online predators
in this course for variousreasons, including not scaring
them too much, but we go to adifferent level with the parent
companion, as we call it.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:47):
And then do you give advice to the parent on how
to talk to their kids aboutpredators?
Jennifer Berger (06:54):
Yes, we absolutely do.
We have a specialist who wespeak with, who we spoke with
during the podcast, who, audiocourse, we call it podcast too,
but it's inside the course whois an internet safety specialist
for parents who gives somereally great tips and really
good advice based on her ownexperience, actually as a person
(07:17):
who was almost a victim of anonline predator.
But it's not just that, it'salso how do you have these
conversations with your kidsabout their own tech use, about
their digital wellness, as wecall it, creating habits that
are going to be good for them ontheir own, in a self-regulating
(07:37):
way, and not a top-down way.
Always it takes a combinationof those two things.
But we talk a lot about whatkids won't respond to.
And we talk with a parentingspecialist who works with
(07:59):
resolving conflict betweenparents and kids, who gives some
really excellent advice forparents how to have these
conversations in a way, again,that is collaborative, that
meets the kids where they areand becomes a true conversation
instead of okay, sign thiscontract, like, sign this tech
(08:20):
agreement for our family rightnow, that doesn't change for the
next three years.
So the advice it goes deep,essentially.
Sandy Zamalis (08:31):
You're trying to create connection.
It sounds like really You'rereally trying to track and help
parents understand the nuancesbut also reach the kids, and I
love the fact that you're usinglike a driver's analogy so it
feels like a learner's permit,right when?
you have to demonstrate amaturity.
You have to demonstrate thatyou're able to handle the tools.
(08:53):
And how do you help parentsnavigate when there is a blip
right or if the child makes amisstep, and if we're not trying
to put really harsh and hardboundaries, but instead help
them grow and learn to use thetool safely?
(09:13):
What do you tell parents forwhen those hiccups happen?
Because they will?
Jennifer Berger (09:20):
One of our experts, who was on our who is
on our audio course, talks aboutthe best thing that her mom had
done for her, which was theblip occurred.
Something happened.
She posted a picture of herselfthat she shouldn't have.
She sent a photo to anotherperson who she shouldn't have
(10:03):
and the story essentially waslike my mother was very calm.
She was freaking out inside andinstead of freaking out at me,
she kept it calm and asked mequestions, and she also had the
point of view in this story andwhat other many the
psychotherapists who we had oneverybody was essentially says
everything can be fixed.
This is not the end of theworld Like what happened here,
and I don't really mean todismiss it by saying not the end
(10:24):
of the world, but this is notthe end of everything Like.
This is just something thathappens, and the more that we
can speak to them that way andthe more that we can hear them
instead of judging, the betteroff we really are going to be
with kids.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:42):
So how did you find yourself at this philosophy
right?
Was this a if you can't beatthem, join them.
They're going to get phonesanyway.
Or did you come at this from adifferent perspective?
Jennifer Berger (10:58):
I came at it from a perspective of being a
media literacy educator forabout 20 years, working with so
many teenagers who felt likethey were alone because their
parents were villainizing theirworld, their media, their phone,
their it wasn't phone 20 yearsago, but their stuff that they
(11:21):
really liked, and I really cameto the conclusion, just by
working with them, that theyweren't really being listened to
and that just went on for allthe years that I have been doing
that work, like up until now.
When I first was doing thiswork I was pretty young, so I
was coming out from the teenagerperspective Like that's what I
could understand at that timeand I think that really has
(11:58):
benefited the work overall.
Mental health crisis hittingthe newspapers and Meta and
other companies that have socialmedia products really not
helping kids at all stay safeand in many ways harming them,
and the legislators not keepingkids safe either and schools not
(12:27):
having the funding that theyneeded to really institute the
really excellent levels of medialiteracy that are actually
available but are not funded.
Right now I realized that guesswhat?
We need a stopgap measure.
Like something terrible ishappening Kids are committing
(12:49):
suicide, kids are ending up inthe emergency room after
committing self-harm at rates wehave not seen before, and
talking about how the thingsthat created these feelings for
them came from social media, andI just was so horrified and so
(13:12):
saddened by that.
But I knew that I had beenteaching the right skills for so
long that I couldn't not createthis.
I couldn't not create thesocial media driver's license.
Just seeing how much preventionwould have helped, would have
perhaps actually stopped thatand will also prevent the next
(13:36):
teen mental health crisis thatmight be coming down the pipe,
which is why we're reaching 10to 14-year-olds and not 15 to
18-year-olds at this time.
We're going for mental healthoutcomes prevention right now.
So the last piece of thatreally is that they are going to
get phones anyway.
We can absolutely wait.
(14:00):
Jonathan Haidt, his book theAnxious Generation.
One of the pieces of advice iswait until they're 16.
There's wait until eight.
That talks about not givingyour kids a phone until after
eighth grade, and my perspectiveis that is all great.
Please, parents, please do that.
(14:22):
We should all do that.
And also, eventually they'regoing to get their phone.
So then what happens?
And so what the social mediadriver's license does is it
helps us be ready for thatmoment.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:39):
So I'm pausing for a minute because we had a
conversation about JonathanHaidt's book right before you
popped on.
I've historically enjoyed hiswork, but I found that the
Anxious Generation was asweeping generalization of the
(15:02):
actual state of mental healthamong adolescents.
The actual state of mentalhealth among adolescents that
the most recent meta-analyticwork that has come out and
looked at the correlation iswhat he was saying.
Right, but the associationbetween social media and phone
use and teen mental health isn'tnearly as strong as he made.
It seem that it's so nuancedand that those relationships
(15:26):
that we have with our kids arecontributors.
The relationships that theyhave in person with one another
are contributors.
The tragedy that COVIDlockdowns created in severing
social connection contributors.
Right, there's so manycontributors, and so I think
(15:47):
social media is a huge piece andthat what you're doing is
phenomenal.
Right, that's a piece that weactually can speak into, that we
actually can give tangiblethings to help our kids make
responsible choices, healthychoices, whereas working on
(16:08):
those in-person relationships isharder.
Jennifer Berger (16:14):
Can you clarify a little bit for me about the
in-person relationship, workingon the in-person relationships?
Dr. Amy Moore (16:20):
Sure, teaching, I'm just going to use one
example.
So teaching families to setlimits on social media use right
, that is a tangible task.
That, hey, here's some tips forhow to have that conversation.
Here's how to collaborate oncreating that.
Those limits and thoseboundaries those limits and
(16:40):
those boundaries right, whichcan have dramatic impacts right
Limits, those limits are goingto have big impacts.
Teaching every family how tocommunicate effectively in all
(17:11):
situations is a larger seizuretasks and it's influenced by how
you were parented, how yourparents are continuing to tell
you how you should parent yourchild, your culture, your
socioeconomic status, theparenting style that you have
adopted right.
And then, once you've adopted aparenting style, you entrench
yourself in right and you're notsuper open to trying a
different one, right.
So it is a bigger, more complextask to coach those in-person
(17:34):
daily relationships withinfamily ecosystems and then the
friendship ecosystems at schooland in after school activities.
So it's just bigger thantraining a tangible conversation
around setting boundaries oversocial media.
So, like, you've identifiedsomething that is doable.
Jennifer Berger (18:00):
Yeah, interpersonal relationships.
Yes, the interpersonalrelationship aspect is what I'm
hearing and there was a lotright there and I want to say do
agree, and I'm not.
I don't really want to agree ordisagree necessarily about what
the science says, but you'reabsolutely right that, whether
it's happening or not, whethersocial media is to blame,
(18:23):
whether smartphones are to blame, we know there is some sort of
problem happening withsmartphones and social media.
What is the most humanitarianthing that we can do about this?
Not ridding everyone of theirsmartphones or taking every
smartphone away from13-year-olds or any of that.
(18:44):
But it does fall into the zonefor me of we don't really know
and it's really hard to studyall of these factors.
And so what can we do?
It's like some of the Britishlaws and European laws around
(19:07):
dangerous substances, aroundchemicals and things like that.
We're not exactly sure, but wedon't like it right now, and so
let's do something at least.
But yes, those interpersonal,to speak to the interpersonal
skill piece, to speak to theinterpersonal skill piece, there
(19:28):
are a lot of things I'm not asmuch in the business of being
like.
Here's how you have thisconversation with your child,
because I'm not an actualparenting expert, I'm a media
literacy expert.
What I do know is what doesn'twork, and what I do know is what
, when you're saying these inthis entrenched way of parenting
, you know, we all know thatwhen kids become teenagers, it's
(19:52):
like your kitten has become acat, where it's a different,
there's a different person.
This is a different world in alot of ways.
How do parents adjust theirparenting for that?
And one of the things is notvillainizing their media, like
(20:13):
not shutting down theconversation, not creating super
rigid rules that are top downwhere you've had no conversation
about it, because the kids willjust most kids, I should say
many kids will act out againstthat and will be sneaky, even if
they seem even if they seem,they have seemed up until like
age nine as being like aquote-unquote good kid.
(20:36):
This is just.
This is just how the teenagemind works, right.
It's asserting independence,it's asserting agency.
They want agency.
They want to make their owndecision.
They don't want to be told whatto do, they don't want to be
lectured to.
I would say that there are alot more ways that parents can
turn their kids off to coming tothem, to having the
(21:00):
conversation with them, thanthere are perfect ways to have
the conversation with them, thenthere are perfect ways to have
the conversation.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:06):
Sure, but saying no is paralyzing, and so it's
not just with teenagers.
It's a phenomenon calledpsychological reactance that,
when we are told no, it makes uswant to do the thing even more.
The difference is, as adults,we have fully formed prefrontal
(21:28):
cortexes, right?
So we're able to reason through.
Why are we being told no?
Maybe I should consider some ofthese reasons right.
And that is not happening whenwe are emotional and when Afraid
are emotional, and when afraid,sure, right, because that is a
(21:48):
fear-based reaction.
You're going to take it away,I'm not going to be able to see
my friends, I'm not going to beable to know what's going on in
the world, like.
Those are all fears that thencreate additional resistance for
sure that.
Jennifer Berger (22:00):
But then the parent fears that create the
rules, create, create.
These rigid rules are also inplay.
Right when the parents?
I'm just really afraid thatshe's going to be contacted by
someone.
These fears of what socialmedia or what the smartphone
(22:28):
could do to their kids isparalyzing them as well.
Sandy Zamalis (22:33):
I was going to say that I think the biggest.
It's a game of whack-a-mole.
I think for parents a lot,because the problem is that the
tech for kids now is so muchmore advanced than anything we
grew up with.
So we're constantly playingcatch up and trying to figure
out where all the loopholes areand what's happening, and it is
a full-time job to try to keepup with that.
(22:54):
So I love you know, from thatsocial media expert side of
things, where you know there's aplace you can go to actually
find out what's happening,what's current.
What should we be super mindfulon so that you're not just
operating out of fear?
Because the reality is it isn'tabout the phone anymore.
Kids have their Chromebooks,they have their watches.
(23:14):
They may not have a phone, butthey've got access to the
internet and everything thatthey do in their video games.
It's not just about socialmedia anymore.
The internet has just blownthat wide open and it's only
going to get more pervasive intohow many ways that they can
access the Internet.
So I'm with you, I think,jennifer.
Jennifer Berger (23:38):
More education.
Sandy Zamalis (23:39):
It's going to help everybody feel more
comfortable because it's notgoing to go away and so, yeah,
you can say no to a phone.
Okay, your child's going tofind another way.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:50):
The internet is ubiquitous.
Sandy Zamalis (23:51):
Yeah, the internet's everywhere.
They'll go to the library.
Jennifer Berger (23:55):
And one thing.
One thing the way that wedefine social media actually
even goes beyond, absolutelygoes beyond, the phone.
The phone is the crux of thewhole thing really.
Once you give your kids a phone, there it is right in their
hand.
But what it is?
It can be YouTube, it can bein-game chats where people are
talking to each other.
There's a lot of content goingon right there.
(24:18):
It can be texting, it can beall of these different things.
So it's not doesn't have to be asocial media company, a social
media platform, to to influencethem.
Just what you're saying.
But it's just so.
The whack-a-mole, thewhack-a-mole metaphor I have
heard many times now and it'sjust not fair.
(24:40):
What we expect of parents rightnow, what we expect of parents
right now, like what the cultureexpects of parents as far as
keeping up with all of that andwatching everything and doing
like Parents have enough, likethere isn't.
There was enough before thisand it's just it's.
(25:02):
It feels very unfair to me.
And then you can't turn to theschools necessarily to do it and
you can't turn to someone elseand the government isn't fixing
it Not that I don't really thinkthat it really would anyone
like that.
Any rules could really beproperly enforced because of the
social media companies, and soit's really all on parents.
And so it's really all onparents, and a recent study
(25:23):
showed that 66% of parents weretotally overwhelmed by their
kids' tech-full lives,essentially, and what we plan to
do with the social mediadriver's license and our
organization, ready Set Screen,is to keep parents up on those
things so they have an idea.
(25:45):
To keep parents up on thosethings so they have an idea.
But in no way would I ever wantparents to feel like they have
to know what all of the featuresin Snapchat are.
They need to know all of thedifferent things you can do and
the things I need to be worriedabout.
And that's exactly this.
Playing whack-a-mole is exactlywhat we try to avoid by giving
(26:06):
their kids, giving kids theskills that they need to start
forming good judgment, at leastto start being smart and
independent and balanced abouttheir tech use.
Sandy Zamalis (26:26):
I love that approach too, because everything
to your point, like everythingin the media, it's all
fear-based.
Like the movie, just a couple,or the Netflix special
Adolescence or whatever thatjust came out, was just
terrifying, and if that's theinput parents are getting, they
need a neutral resource thatjust gives them helpful tools
(26:47):
and information and doesn'tscare their pants off of them
Wanting to lock their kids inthe basement.
Jennifer Berger (26:54):
Never to see the light.
Never to see the light of daythat's right.
Sandy Zamalis (27:02):
Be safe and a chain into your bedpost, I know.
Jennifer Berger (27:06):
There is so much.
There is so much to be.
That's not what I mean.
There is so much reporting.
There are so many stories thatwe can learn about.
There are so many likesextortion, scams and a million
different things.
And if you just watch the, ifyou just watch that go by, then
(27:35):
you will be terrified, becausethe things that happen are
terrifying and and it's justlike with kidnappings, it's just
with like with stranger danger,it's just like with kidnappings
, it's just like with strangerdanger, it's just like with all
of it.
If you let that consume you andyou let the stories become
trends, become truths in yourmind, then you'll just be more
(27:55):
afraid over and over again.
And so we're like fighting fearwith knowledge.
Essentially, is what we'retrying to do, in a really
nonjudgmental way, to just likenot interested in judging
parents for whether they lettheir kids look at their tablet
or iPad while they're makingdinner, these kinds of things
that are, of course, recommendedby the American Pediatric
(28:17):
Association, for example, butare just, you know, for some
people, just a lot of peoplejust not realistic essentially.
So it's not what it's about.
It's not about your kid shouldonly have 30 minutes of screen
time or zero minutes of screentime per day, and they should do
.
They should put their phonedown when they come in the room
(28:40):
and they should never have thephone at the dinner table, and
they should.
I am not saying any of thosethings are bad.
I'm just saying if you makethese like I keep saying, if you
keep making these really rigidrules and not having
conversations, then you're inbig trouble.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:58):
So does your program address pornography?
Jennifer Berger (29:01):
Yes, so it addresses on the kid's side.
It addresses what to do whenyou come across quote
inappropriate surprises Because,again, this is for 10 to
14-year-olds.
We don't know what they've seenand what they haven't seen, and
we don't want to be the ones totell them about this.
(29:22):
We know that kids are seeingpornography earlier and earlier,
and sometimes it's not of theirown choosing.
A lot of the time it's not oftheir own choosing to look at it
, and so the conversation aboutthese inappropriate surprises
that we bring to light for thekids is really you are going to
(29:44):
come across something that youdon't think you should be seeing
or that you know that yourparent or caregiver does not
want you to see.
Here's what to do about that.
Almost every adult understandswhat is happening with you and
your as far as what you mighthave seen and feeling shame.
(30:08):
You might feel shame, and thatis natural, and you might feel,
you might feel badly abouthaving seen it, or maybe I don't
think we really say maybe youlooked for it, but it really
talks about it being like anaccidental thing, because that's
really the majority of thiskind of thing Talk to your
trusted adult and we even guidethem through a process of
(30:29):
identifying three trusted adultsin their lives, before we even
get into any of the information,really, because it's not always
your parent who you can talk toabout that we just don't want
to assume.
Go tell your mom or dad thatthis happened.
There are other people you alsocan talk to, potentially.
(30:50):
So here's your come up withyour list of three.
It could be your aunt, it couldbe your grandpa, it could be
your school counselor, it couldbe your coach, a lot of
different people and so talk tothem about what you've seen and
know that they're there to helpyou out and that you did not do
anything wrong.
Dr. Amy Moore (31:11):
And then do you have a corresponding lesson for
on the parent side.
Hey, if your child accidentallycomes across this and they come
to you, this is how you shouldnot respond versus.
This is our suggested response.
Jennifer Berger (31:27):
We have not addressed it specifically.
We talked more about, yes, andthere are other resources out
there.
There are other great resources, a lot of sex education
resources, and so what we triedto do with our audio course
really is talk about things in away that that parents that we
(31:49):
all haven't heard yet,essentially like you, can't find
.
You can't find a conversationvery easily about this thing
called the manosphere that istalking to boys in ways that
most of us do not want our boysto be.
Thinking about women and avariety of different icky things
(32:13):
that you might come across, andtalking with parents about how
to handle that, because, onceagain, it's actually maybe not
all about pornography.
It's actually about, like, howyou are connecting with your
children in the first place.
Right, that will help you dealwith things like accidental or
(32:34):
on purpose pornography exposure.
Dr. Amy Moore (32:37):
I've never heard of the Manosphere.
Jennifer Berger (32:42):
It's a terrifying group of misogynists
who they're influencers.
One of their one, the mostfamous one, is Andrew Tate and a
lot of times what happens isthat these influencers show up
on YouTube, for example, orreally any of the social media
(33:03):
platforms.
But on YouTube, a study wasdone that shows that this is
what happens, like, for example,if a boy, a young man, is
looking for bodybuilding contentand we talked to a parent who
has this exact.
This is exactly her story.
Her son is looking forbodybuilding content, he's
(33:44):
interested in fitness.
He's not like in thesupplements world, he's not.
He's not looking for steroids,he's not.
He's just a good kid who tokeep people engaged.
And so some of the influencersout there are men who are
talking about why women arehorrible, how they don't have
brains, skills, abilities, so onand so forth.
(34:09):
I don't really want to repeat alot of it.
Honestly, I think we can allimagine, sure, but then she said
that her son is coming to thedinner table and being like I
have to be strong because womenare so weak, or some kind of
stuff that their family does notascribe to, because they
(34:33):
believe in equality in theirhousehold, and the mom and dad
are like, how do I even talk tohim about this?
They don't even really knowwhat to say because it's like
nothing that they would haveever said in their family.
But they know that their childgot it online.
So the questions have to start.
(34:53):
It has to be like where did youlearn?
Dr. Amy Moore (34:57):
that.
Okay, so I learned it in themanosphere.
We are calling it, I'm sure hedoesn't say it that way.
Jennifer Berger (35:06):
Yeah, this guy.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:10):
He seemed really cool, right?
And so then, as parents, you go, you're never listening to this
guy again, or tell me more,don't stop listening to that
stuff?
Jennifer Berger (35:21):
that's garbage.
We don't think that, and thenthe conversation has ended like
that.
That is the way that's what theparent audio course is all
(35:48):
about is a parent talking withan expert on the topic, so it's
a conversation between a parentand an expert.
That leads to.
What do I do about that, though?
And some really good, solidadvice for parents, but the
person who we the expert who wespoke with was Andrew Reiner,
who wrote a book called BetterBoys, better Men.
(36:09):
That is really all about thatboy.
His opinion is that boys do nothave resilience Various things
about our culture right now thatare off topic, probably for
this conversation but that thatjust because they're not talking
doesn't mean that they don'thave something to say.
Dr. Amy Moore (36:31):
Yeah.
Jennifer Berger (36:37):
So that's been a fascinating experience, like
learning about that, but alsojust learning about some of the
other many experiences thatparents have been having, like
their daughter turning to themwith their phone and being like
what do I say when she says this?
Like a text, coach me on mytexting, like right now, like
(36:59):
she said this mean thing to me.
Do I write something reallymean back or do I try to
de-escalate this?
You know, but it's mom, what doI say?
Dr. Amy Moore (37:11):
I love that the daughter is even asking them Of
course, yeah, but there can be.
Jennifer Berger (37:17):
But, as anyone who has daughters knows, there
can also be too muchconversation sometimes, so a
balance must be had.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:30):
So you say that I mean that teens love to talk
about technology, right, and so,even though we might hear the
peanuts teacher, as they'retalking about Snapchat and
Instagram and all that they wantto share their lives and what's
important in their lives withus.
And so what are some tips thatyou have for parents?
(37:51):
What are some tips you havewhen your kid comes to you and
is all excited about technologyand you hear the Peanuts teacher
?
Jennifer Berger (38:02):
Don't let on that.
You hate it.
Don't let on that, you don'twant to know about it.
Like with many of theirinterests, oh, let me see, tell
me more.
Like you're just indicatingthat it's safe to talk about
what they see online with you.
You don't have to do it, youdon't have to get on Snapchat,
you don't have to learn how touse any of it, but it's, oh, let
(38:24):
me see, oh, that's really funny, oh that's really cool, or
whatever.
And also, just like I said,just not villainizing.
Just not villainizing.
This is their life.
You know some of our parents wholike hated TV, for example, or
hated sugary cereals, let usknow, all the time, right.
(38:46):
So what did we do when weweren't with them?
A lot of the time, watch waytoo much TV and eat too much
sugary cereal.
So be there with them, be there, watch them, play the game.
Play the game with them.
If they'll play the game withyou.
But they want to talk.
It seems like they don't wantto talk about it.
(39:06):
They're like mom, stop it.
But they do want to talk.
They just don't want to belectured.
They don't want you to do allthe talking.
They want you to do all theasking and you're showing them
by doing the asking that it'sokay to talk about it and that
you're interested.
That is a kind of basicparenting advice, honestly, that
(39:29):
a lot of parenting experts havegiven over the years, but it is
really important and it bearsrepeating over and over again,
really.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:38):
Yeah, absolutely, because a lot of times, as
parents, you see yourself as theexpert.
So your child comes to you,asks you for advice, you give
out the advice and you move onto the next topic.
But you are a little bitparalyzed when you're like, oh,
they want to talk about this andI don't know, I don't know
about this.
So how cool is it then that youcan just turn things around as
(39:59):
a question?
Jennifer Berger (40:00):
That's like the joy I have so much respect for
today's teenagers.
I truly do, and that's one ofthe great things about teenagers
is that they have their ownthoughts.
You talk to a six-year-oldabout this stuff and maybe they
have some basic ideas they wantto talk about on a certain topic
.
But, like a teenager a teenageryou really don't have to be an
(40:21):
expert.
You don't have to be an experton the platforms on the social
media platforms you don't haveto be an expert on platforms.
You don't have to be an experton YouTube.
You don't have to be an experton really like any of the
features of any of these things.
You have to become an expert atasking more questions that
don't sound judgmental, that areliterally open questions.
(40:45):
So that really is, I would saythat is the biggest challenge is
like what questions are goingto be your standard go-tos as
you go into life with a tweenwho's turning into a teen?
Dr. Amy Moore (40:59):
Yeah, good advice .
Okay.
So, jennifer, when does thiscourse come out?
When is it available?
How can our listeners find moreabout it?
Jennifer Berger (41:10):
The course will be available by the time this
podcast airs, and that should beby May 23rd.
What we hope is that parentswill want to take advantage of
this dead zone between the endof school and the beginning of
summer activities, or the end ofsummer activities in the
beginning of school next year,to give their kids this
(41:33):
education, especially if theirkids are dying for a phone.
And it will be availablenationwide, it will be available
online and we will have asliding scale.
So even if some families arenot able to afford our starting
price, which we haven't quitedetermined yet as of this
(41:54):
recording, there will be ways,because we're a nonprofit, we're
not a for-profit.
Our goal is for accessibility.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:04):
And so that website is
socialmediadriverslicenseorg.
Jennifer Berger (42:08):
That website to go to is
socialmediadriverslicenseorg,and you can find out all the
information you need and you canenroll in the course Fantastic.
Dr. Amy Moore (42:20):
Anything that you want to leave our listeners
with that you didn't get to talkabout today.
Jennifer Berger (42:24):
Oh, such a good thank you for asking that.
I always try to ask that aswell.
I think.
Just know that, as the parentof a teen or tween, you're
working with someone who is muchmore turning into an adult and
(42:44):
can start having conversationsthat sound like adult
conversations Not inappropriateadult conversations, just more
grown-up conversations than theyused to be able to.
I think.
Give them that credit, lovethem through that and make sure
they have the knowledge thatthey need to make their own
(43:06):
decisions in the future oncethey leave your nest.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:11):
Yeah, I think that's fantastic advice, because
if they don't learn that in thesafety of our home, they're
going to learn it somewhere.
That's right.
That's right.
Jennifer Berger, thank you somuch for being with us today,
for sharing your wisdom on thissuper important topic.
We really appreciate you takingtime to be with us.
Jennifer Berger (43:34):
Thank you so much, Dr Amy, and thank you
Sandy.
I really appreciate the timeand I hope that your listeners
got something good out of this.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:43):
I'm sure they got lots of cool things Important
too Amazing Great Speaking oflisteners.
Thank you for being with ustoday.
If you like us, please find uson Instagram and Facebook at the
Brainy Moms.
You can watch us on YouTube atthe Brainy Moms and you can go
to our website, thebrainymomscom.
If you would like to seeSandy's work in action, be sure
(44:06):
to hop over to TikTok and findher at thebraintrainerlady.
Look, this is all the smartstuff we have for you today.
We hope you feel a littlesmarter, so we're going to catch
you next time.
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