January 14, 2025 • 37 mins
Discover the secret to turning your Amazon venture into a thriving business. We tackle the pressing question: How can U.S. sellers distinguish themselves from robust international competition in 2025? Join us for insights into capitalizing on the changing e-commerce landscape, where customer loyalty and integrity set you apart, and dive into the implications of political shifts and the expanding influence of platforms like TikTok and Walmart.
In our latest episode of Brand Fortress HQ's Tactics Tuesday, we unravel the complexities of optimizing Amazon listings amid evolving trends. Learn the art of crafting product titles that appeal to both human shoppers and AI-driven algorithms, maximizing your visibility with Amazon's Rufus tool. Ethical review practices and a strong post-purchase process are essential as these elements increasingly influence product rankings and customer engagement. The landscape is shifting, and with Amazon promoting Rufus for search, strategic adaptability is your key to staying ahead.
Later, we shift to the boundless opportunities beyond Amazon, with TikTok and Walmart emerging as formidable players in the e-commerce arena. Explore the potential of TikTok’s viral impact coupled with its lower fees, and uncover the strategies for engaging with content creators to boost brand visibility. We emphasize an enduring truth: Success is rooted in steadfast brand principles, prioritizing customer care, and delivering unmatched value. Join us to prepare for an e-commerce future where adaptability and integrity lead the charge.
🚀 Transform your brand on Amazon by building a powerful customer list with the After Purchase Funnel Blueprint course. Click here to get the full course for free.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everybody to another episode of Brand
Fortress HQ.
Today, in this Tactics Tuesday,we're talking about big
opportunities for 2025, whatwe're most excited about as we
kick off the new year.
We just did an episode on, youknow, reflecting on 2024.
And now we want to take a lookat what we see coming up in 2025
, some of the predictions, someof the opportunities and just
(00:20):
what the landscape looks like.
So we were talking a little bitbefore we hit record on the
podcast, so I'm going to startjust kick it over to you, mike,
about what you are excited aboutfor 2025 and what you see in
the e-commerce and, specifically, amazon landscape.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I think one of the things that to me seems like the
biggest opportunity for, let'ssay, those individuals who see
their business as a business.
Right, it's not a series ofhacks.
You know that, you know they'regaming the system or things
like that, but they're reallylooking at it as a genuine
(00:54):
business, which means you buildit on actual business principles
good business.
You know how are you treatingyour customers, are you building
out a list?
Are you building loyalty?
Are you doing all of thosethings that a good business
should do for those individuals?
I think that 2025 is going to beable to come away from and
separate yourself from.
(01:14):
I think Chinese sellers, forthe most part, fall into that
category.
I think there's a lot of thingscoming up in 2025 that are
(01:37):
going to be that opportunity toreally start setting yourself
apart and giving you an edgeover those Chinese sellers and
over some of those sellers thatreally are just coming in and
trying to hack the system ratherthan actually build a business.
And one of those big things, Ithink is really Trump getting
elected and like him or hate him, whether you like what he's
going to do or you don't likewhat he's going to do, he's
going to do it, and some of thethings that he's going to do, I
(01:58):
actually think are going to be areally big help to those
sellers who really are lookingat it as a true business.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Matt, what about you?
What are some of the maybe oneor two things that you're
looking at for big opportunitiesin?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
2025 and are excited about.
For me, looking at your Amazonbusiness as a true business.
What that looks like to me andwhat I've been focusing on with
the brands that I work with istaking those Amazon blinders off
and looking at other channelsand not just not just focused on
that one channel, whichcontinues to get more expensive
and more competitive.
You know, tiktok is one of thebig things that came of last
(02:36):
year.
That is driving sales for a lotof brands.
I'm really excited about that.
You know, I think social sellingI don't think that we've even
seen a fraction of how popularthat can and will be.
I mean, that's how most peopleshop in China and other
countries and we're just kind ofnow starting to scratch the
surface of what that looks liketo drive traffic, which, you
(02:57):
know, focusing on pretty muchany area off of Amazon ends up
having some sort of a spillovereffect to Amazon.
I've seen so many brands in thepast year, in 2024, that had a
viral video go viral on TikTokand that ended up in actual
legitimate search volume on theAmazon platform.
(03:19):
So you know, that's that's kindof the big.
The biggest thing that I'm themost excited about is exploring
all of these other platforms,which will then obviously have
an effect on your Amazonbusiness with.
You know, amazon loves externaltraffic and that's going to
naturally happen as you start tofind these other channels to
get your products on.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of change that's going to
happen, like there is everyyear, and I think you know we
were talking about a little bitbefore we hit record on the
podcast happen, like there isevery year, and I think you know
we were talking about a littlebit before we hit record on the
podcast, and you know there'salways a couple of ways that you
can look at that.
Is that okay?
Here's another thing that Ihave to do, or have to adapt to,
or a change that I have to make, or looking at as an
opportunity.
And so you know, one of thethings that we were specifically
talking about before we hitrecord was new title policy that
(04:00):
Amazon has come out with in thelast couple of days that they
have said that they're going toput into effect starting in
about two weeks, which reallydoesn't give sellers a whole lot
of time in order to see ifthey're compliant.
Now there's a lot of differentquestions about how that will be
enforced and what it'llactually look like when that
(04:23):
policy goes live.
But I think you know before wehit record, Mike, you were
talking about this and I thinkit's a great point of because
what they're basically trying,what Amazon is trying to do, we
think based on this policy, iskind of clean up the titles on
product listings to make themmore customer friendly and look
more reputable, so they don'tlook like a whole bunch of just
(04:44):
keywords stuffed into a title,so they look more legitimate and
so there's more of a trustfactor for customers.
And, Mike, you were talkingabout how that actually gives US
and North American sellers anadvantage in the sense of being
a native speaking, the meansthat you can make that title
(05:08):
more effective, Whereas ifyou're just relying on ChatGPT
or some sort of tool in order todo that for you because you
don't speak the languagenatively and you can no longer
keyword stuff, that process isactually going to make it be
some good news for US sellersthat are facing some pretty
(05:28):
strong Chinese competition.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I think so.
I mean, I really feel like thatis one of the things that I've
been really trying hard this,probably the last few months,
but moving into this year ismoving away from this idea of I
have to do something to I get todo something, and I think
(05:50):
there's an aspect of that here.
You know, like, like you weresaying earlier, that you know
you could look at this as a oh,now I have to do all these
things and adjust my titles anddo all this stuff right, and,
rather than looking at it asthis process that you're going
to dread, looking at it as anopportunity to set yourself
(06:12):
apart, and this is a really goodopportunity.
I mean, one of the thingsthat's hurting American sellers
the most is the combination ofhigh fees on Amazon and the
influx of Chinese sellers,because the influx of Chinese
sellers has lowered the pricepoint in most categories, so
that there's a lot less marginavailable.
And then when you, at the sametime, see Amazon hiking their
(06:36):
fees, well then your margin issqueezed even more.
So if you're not a brand thathas really set yourself apart as
one that has a lot of brandloyalty and that commands a
higher price point, you'relosing on both ends.
And so one of the things thatwill be that value component is
being able to make yourself lookfar more legitimate and having
(06:58):
an edge in doing that.
Because, let's get very specific, the change in the title
requirements that Amazon issuggesting is that essentially,
no word outside of, likeprepositions and things like
that, no key phrase, you knowlike.
So for us, we sell, you know,let's say, a pool poll.
I can't put pool in my titlemore than twice.
(07:22):
I can't put pole in my titlemore than twice.
Well, that gets really sketchyif you know, if you have in the
past and, as Chinese sellersoften do, if you've just simply
been keyword stuffing, whereI've got pool pole, telescopic
pool pole, pool pole forcleaning, you know I've got it
four different ways, you know inmy title, but I've got pool in
(07:42):
there four times.
I've got pole in there fourtimes, I've got.
Well, now you can't do thatright.
So you have to find creativeways to be able to embed one key
phrase inside of another keyphrase inside of another key
phrase.
Well, if you know the Englishlanguage well, then you have an
opportunity to be able to dothat and intuitively think that
through and come up withcreative titles that make sense
(08:05):
to the buyer but also allow youto embed multiple key phrases
that you're looking to targetwhile not repeating those words
more than twice.
That's going to be really hardfor a Chinese seller, and
although I would argue thatChatGPT certainly gives them a
better opportunity to do thatthan they would if they didn't
(08:26):
have it, it is still not goingto do nearly as good a job as
somebody who has at least arelatively good understanding of
the English language, whichmeans you're American or.
UK or whatever.
So I do think there's an edgethere.
It gives you an opportunity toset yourself apart and I think
they're going to have a hardtime competing with that to set
yourself apart, and I thinkthey're going to have a hard
time competing with that.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
There are some things that Amazon does that feel like
they're against the seller.
Inbound placement fees, I think, are a good example of that.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Some of the things that you are against sellers?
Yes, they are, they're justbeing that way.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
They really are.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
They are true, and there are some things that they
do that are to make thecustomer's lives better or to
increase conversions for themthrough the customer.
I think this one falls into thecategory of.
To be honest, I think it makessense and I think that changing
your title to not allow the sameword twice, essentially what's
(09:19):
going to end up happening and Ithink why Amazon is making this
change is that it's going tomake the titles actually human
readable and for us and theproducts that I manage and list
on Amazon, I want that anywaysand I've been moving towards
more of contextual language inmy titles far before this rule
came out.
Because if you think about who,yes, it's important for Amazon
(09:40):
to know what your product is, soit knows who to show it to, but
it's essentially the customerthat's clicking on your listing
in the search results and ifthey don't understand what your
unique selling proposition is inthe title, then you're in the
sea of same with a whole bunchof other Chinese competitors
selling the same thing.
So I've been using my title toshow how I stand out, which
(10:02):
makes my titles more humanreadable, which I don't use the
same word 16 times because Iknow that that's not going to
make it human readable.
So I've been doing this forlonger than just Amazon forcing
us to.
I think it makes sense from thebuyer standpoint.
I think having clear, concisetitles that talk about the
product and why they should buythat one, I think it makes more
sense than the keyword stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well, I also think, reasonably speaking, if you are
a brand, a true brand, likeyou've been trying to build an
actual brand, then I think thelikelihood is you probably have
already been doing this.
Because, let's face it, youcan't sell you know, like
selling a pool poll if you'reselling that in a category where
every other seller is sellingit for 30 or 40 bucks and you're
(10:45):
trying to sell it for $100 or$200 in the case of our pool,
because of the qualitydifferential and the warranty.
You can't just throw up akeyword stuffed title that makes
no sense and think that aperson who's willing to spend
$200 for a pool poll is going tobuy your prop.
That is not going to happen.
So if you are already buildinga brand that sets you apart and
(11:07):
allows you to sell in thatpremium price point, I can
almost guarantee you are alreadydoing what it is that Amazon
wants you to do.
You might have to make a tweakhere and there, but ultimately
your titles are not going tochange much based on this new
rule.
I don't think it's going to be abig issue.
And again, same thing.
We've been doing it for years.
I'm not really concerned aboutit.
You know.
It's really not going to be.
It's going to be a blip and Ithink it's actually going to be
(11:28):
a positive one.
So you know, from thatstandpoint, I can't I really
can't see this as a bad thing.
I think everybody should belooking at it.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
At least those of us who aren't keyword stuffing
should this as really just anopportunity to again separate
yourselves more than you wereable to before.
Yeah, so switching gears alittle bit.
I think one of the other thingsthat I'm really excited about
this year is the expansion ofRufus and, specifically looking
at you know, I think we'll seean ad, some sort of ads
capability for Rufus roll outthis year, and so I've purposely
been using Rufus as part of theshopping experience just to get
(12:06):
more familiar with it when Ibuy things on Amazon, and I
think that there's Again I don'tthink, if we look at this year
what's the adoption across theentire Amazon customer base?
I think it's going to be singledigit percentage of customers.
However, right now, rufus showsthree or four products.
So compare that to if I'mputting in a search for a
(12:30):
certain product where there'sonly three or four options that
are coming up.
Now compare that to if I putthat into the standard search
bar, where there's 25 productsthat are coming up and half of
those are ads.
I think that there's an amazingopportunity, even if it's only
a single digit percentage ofcustomers that are coming up and
half of those are ads.
I think that there's an amazingopportunity, even if it's only
a single digit percentage ofcustomers that are actually
using Rufus right now in orderto what's probably going to be a
(12:55):
fairly cheap ad, in order tocapture those customers.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Well, I also think that it's.
I think that sellers are goingto have to pay much more
attention to Rufus, in the sensethat if you type in pool poll
and Rufus comes back with youknow three products, if you're
not one of those three products,then over time that's going to
(13:23):
become problematic.
Over time that's going tobecome problematic.
Right now it makes nodifference because, as you said,
it's single digits, right, youknow, in terms of percentage of
users that are actually lookingfor products in that way.
But Amazon is big on this.
They're pushing hard on movingin this direction of having more
shoppers using Rufus in thisway.
So you know that adoption isgoing to grow using Rufus in
(13:47):
this way.
So you know that adoption isgoing to grow and as it does,
it's going to become way morecritical that you become one of
those few products that areshowing up there.
If you don't want to have tospend money to have an ad placed
within Rufus which is going tohappen, that's going to be a
thing.
So it's not as if you won'thave the opportunity, but it'd
be way cheaper if you happen tobe one of the three that Rufus
is recommending.
And so I think you're ontosomething, john, in the sense of
(14:08):
one making sure that you'restarting to use Rufus so that
you understand how is itthinking?
What kind of products is itlisting?
Why is it listing thoseproducts versus other products?
So that you can start to adjusthow you're operating on Amazon
so that hopefully, you areshowing up as one of those few
products.
I also think it ties back to theconversation that we were just
having about titles, because ifyou think about AI, if you
(14:33):
keyword stealth and you don'tactually have a title that makes
any sense, then it's a lotharder for Rufus to figure out
what is your product.
And not only what is yourproduct, but how does your
product stand out from otherproducts in your category?
Like, why would I want to showyour product if somebody says
heavy-duty pool, pool versussome other product in that
(14:55):
category?
Well, if all you've done isjust kind of keyword stuff and
you haven't given it context toknow, then it may not show your
product, even though yours mightbe the one that's the most
relevant product for thatspecific search.
So writing those titles thatactually make sense not only to
a human being but also to AI andgives it the context that it
needs, is going to be criticalto having the opportunity to
(15:18):
show up in those top threelistings.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, and I well, and I would add, you know, just
based on, again, my experienceanecdotally using it, is that I
think that, or at least what Isaw from the results in using
Rufus, is it actually weightedthe summarized customer reviews
more than the title.
So if you're saying, hey, I'mlooking for you know, so I was
(15:43):
looking for a case for my newphone.
Hey, I wanted to have thisfeature and I want it to be, you
know, good protection for myphone, et cetera, et cetera,
like I forget exactly what youknow keywords I put in there.
But the interesting thing to mewas is that it's it seemed like
more of that data was actuallycoming from.
You know the summarized reviewsthat it has actually coming from
(16:06):
.
You know the summarized reviewsthat it has.
Like if you go down this, thereview section, and it gives
like a review, you know, summaryof the reviews of.
Like you know checkmarkcustomers have said that this is
a high quality product.
Customers have said this hasprotected their phone.
Well, you know and have saidthat it has this feature.
Like that appear to wait morethan things like the like the
title, which is very differentfrom what we've seen in the past
(16:28):
.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
There's something I want to say about that, but I
want to give Matt an opportunity.
I don't know if he's gotanything he wants to add to that
.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I don't.
Actually, my brain is spinningof what I'm going to do after we
get off this, because I haven'tplayed with Rufus anywhere near
as much as I should have, basedon this conversation.
So no, I'm making a checklist.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
So go ahead and say what you're going to say, mike.
So the thing that comes to mindfor me is you could, on the
surface of that, say that,especially if you're building a
list, right, and a list givesyou opportunity to request
reviews.
But I think, just ethically,you do have a responsibility to
not, let's say, force orsignificantly manipulate
(17:15):
customers into giving you aparticular kind of a review
versus something else.
Right, you know we're going topay you for good reviews.
Things like that.
None of us likes that.
If you're a good seller andyou're really trying to build a
good business, you don't likethat model.
However, I would say that,because that's true, and I have
seen that I haven't used Rufusas much as I think you probably
(17:35):
have John, but I have used itand that is something that I
noticed about it.
And so one of the interestingthings there is we've all seen
this in the past, I'm sure isyou know either these shows or
these clips.
You know video clips, thingslike that, where you use I don't
know what the terminology ispsychology is not my thing but
(17:56):
these primers, let's say, right,like in a conversation you
prime somebody psychologicallyto be thinking in a certain way
by the things that you do andthe things that you say you know
right.
So, as you're thinking aboutyour post-purchase process with
your customer and, by the way,you need one If you don't have a
(18:19):
post-purchase process, you'realready screwed.
So you should be working onthat, but in that post-purchase
process.
So you should be working onthat, but in that post-purchase
process leading up to any ofthose specific points in the
process where you know customerstend to be in that space where
they're going to leave a reviewright.
So for us, when we fulfill on awarranty and the process is
(18:42):
super easy and super fast andthey don't have to jump through
hoops and everything we know,that's the moment at which a lot
of people are going to go leavea review for us, because in
that moment they're like holycrap, that was as easy as a
warranty has ever been.
I'm going to leave these guys afive star review right, which
is great.
But if we don't prime them tosome degree in terms of some of
(19:03):
the phrasings that they mightuse or the ways that they might
describe the process to Amazonor describe the product to
Amazon, then we're leaving.
I think, an opportunity on thetable Because if we know they're
going to leave review, if wecraft our messaging to them in
such a way that we can primesome of that, we're putting some
things in their mind aboutspecific things about the
(19:26):
product that we know we wantRufus to hear, or things about
our warranty that we know wewant Rufus to hear.
If we're priming them in thoselast moments before the review,
we've got a much better chancethat the reviews they leave are
going to positively impact Rufusthe exact way that we want them
to.
So be thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
You know in that post-purchase process with your
customer, so be thinking aboutthat you know, in that
post-purchase process with yourcustomer, John, as you play
around with Rufus like how, I'mstill having a hard time because
I haven't played with it asmuch, how, how is it going to
influence a buying?
So when they ask a question,let's cause.
I see it pop up every once in awhile when I'm actually
shopping on Amazon, and if I'mif I I'm pretty brand loyal
(20:05):
though, so so I tend to not lookaround the page very often, but
if I'm shopping for an eyecream or something along those
lines and it asks me a question,so if I say looking for a men's
eye cream, I type it in thesearch bar and I have a question
down here that it asked meabout an eye cream.
Does it do this or does it dothat?
Is that when I see the threechoices, or do I have to go
through a tree of differentquestions before I get to where
(20:28):
it's actually suggesting brandsfor me?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
No, what I've so, what I've done, or what I've
seen recently, is that, like youcan type in something like hey,
I'm looking for an eye creamfor men, so it's as general or
specific as you want, and thenit'll show you, hey, here's a
few really popular eye cream formen.
(20:51):
But then what it'll also do issay it'll prompt some additional
questions for you.
Or like, hey, here's somepopular questions that customers
have asked and you can justclick essentially on that
pre-populated prompt and thenit'll show you the products that
show that prompt.
So, going back to like my phonecase example, like I wanted a
(21:14):
case, I wanted a soft case, Ididn't want a hard case.
So you know it would show like,hey, are you looking for a hard
case or a soft case?
And so then I could click onthe soft case.
Are you looking for, you know,something that also protects the
screen?
Are you looking for, you know,this feature, that feature?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So I mean it and here's the most qualifying the
customer by walking in throughthat process.
Yes, yes To a certain extent.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Now, what I experienced out of that was,
every time that you would like,if you asked a question or you
clicked on one of thosepre-populated prompts as it was
kind of guessing what you werelooking for asking you more
questions about what you'relooking for, it's showing you
three or four products each time.
So if I would have clicked on,hey, I want a soft case.
(22:05):
Well, okay, now here's, youknow, three or four more
products, and some of thoseproducts might be the same as
what it showed me before, basedon the information, and some of
them might be different or theymight be all different,
depending on.
You know how it answers thatquestion, gotcha.
I mean I would say I use itmost recently on desktop and I
(22:26):
will say the one thing that Ididn't like about it was is that
the screen is super small, likeit only takes up like a quarter
of your regular screen on thebrowser, so it was a little bit
hard to navigate.
But I think, you know, forpeople that are you know, half
of people are are mobileshoppers at this point, for them
it's probably pretty intuitiveand pretty native and you did.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
You say have you tested on mobile yet, or only on
desktop?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I have tested it on mobile.
I haven't used it as much onmobile as I have on desktop,
because I'm more of a a desktopwhen I'm buying things, as
opposed to mobile.
Yeah, hmm.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
So I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I've ever.
I'm almost entirely the reverse.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I don't know that I've ever bought.
Yeah, I don't think I've everbought on my desktop, ever ever
bought something on Amazon on mydesktop?
No, my wife always buys ondesktop Like she's.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
She's kind of the same way as as you, john, as you
, john, like she's.
Like no, I want the full screen, I want to have you know, like
I'm just like nah, this is rightin my hand, I don't.
Why do I want to?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
just like because I want to compare, like you know,
usually three to five products,and then, if I pull up you know
three to five products in thebrowser, I can look at them all
kind of side by side, as opposedto kind of one at a time.
Yeah for sure.
So, yeah, I think it'll bereally.
I mean, I think most people atthis point, though, are using
the mobile experience, and so Ithink it'll be interesting to
(23:47):
see what that looks like, Ithink, as we kind of wrap up.
I think the last one I want totalk about as far as
opportunities, that I'm excitedabout is, you know, assuming
that it doesn't get shut down,which I don't think it will but
TikTok, I think, just the riseof TikTok and the improvement of
Walmart, because I think that'sgoing to be great for brands in
(24:08):
the sense of, you know,hopefully it'll keep some of
these fees and other kind ofsilly policy changes that Amazon
has made in check, and it'llalso give, I think, brands an
opportunity.
It's already given brands anopportunity in order to
diversify beyond the Amazonplatform.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I think there's a chance that Walmart will be able
to increase their market sharein that space, and, as they do,
I do think it is highly likelyit's going to have an effect on
how Amazon fees are assessed tosellers.
On how Amazon fees are assessedto sellers.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
if Walmart grabs enough of market share, maybe
some of the fees start gettingreduced or reversed.
Difficult to say In the moment.
Amazon still has such a massivepercentage of the market that
they're reasonably the only gamein town, but I think there's a
chance that that becomes adifferent play.
I also think that to somedegree TikTok does play into
(25:05):
that, because now that TikTokshop does exist, a lot of these
products that traditionallywould have been Amazon products,
many of them now are startingon and maybe even staying
exclusively on TikTok, becausethe fees have traditionally been
less on TikTok.
(25:26):
But also they have theopportunity for this kind of
viral nature and if it's aproduct that really is conducive
to that, then they're almostbetter off there in some
respects than on Amazon.
So I do think TikTok andWalmart both have, you know,
make it a good opportunitypotentially for for sellers to
start seeing we'll say, better,better relationship with Amazon
(25:48):
if we're lucky.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, I mean again, I don't expect any sort of.
I wouldn't expect fees to comedown anytime soon.
I think it's probably morelikely that the increases will
just not be as big as whatthey've been in the past.
But I wouldn't expect anyAmazon to come along and lower
fees in a significant way forsellers anytime in the near
future.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So, matt, what are you seeing?
I know that you've been doing alot of research on TikTok
lately and I know that beyondour brand, I know there's other
brands that you're also workingwith.
What are you starting to see inthat space, as far as TikTok
goes, in terms of you know realworld, you know tires to the
road, kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Well, I think, first of all, the working with content
creators and and affiliates, Ithink, is I enjoy that more than
just feeding the Amazonadvertising beast.
To be honest, I think that Ithink that there's a the.
The fact that you the viralitypart of this makes things very
(26:48):
exciting, cause I mean, if youcan figure out, like a lot of
these content creators havefigured out, the virality part
of the TikTok algorithm, and youdon't need very many followers
for your brand in order for yourproduct to go viral, and that's
what I love about thatopportunity and that's why a lot
of brands are focusing theirattention on it.
I think that what I'm seeingspecifically on TikTok is that,
(27:13):
first of all, there's a lot ofcontent creators now and the
ones that are good, that you cansee in like these tools using
like CaloData or FastMoss, whereyou can actually see how much
GMB they're driving, how muchrevenue they're driving.
The good ones typically they'regetting hundreds and hundreds
of emails a day, so it's hard tokind of break through the noise
(27:35):
for the ones that actually knowwhat they're doing and have an
audience.
The smaller content creatorsthere seems like everyone and
their mom is a content creatornow and they're kind of reversed
.
They're reaching out to brandssaying, hey, can I do videos for
you?
So I think you have to havesome sort of traction on TikTok
in order to attract theinfluencers and content creators
(27:56):
that actually know what they'redoing.
So that's kind of what we'reworking on now.
There's a couple of other brandnew brands that I'm helping to
launch on the TikTok platformthat we're getting there seems
to be about a magic number ofanywhere between five to 800.
Once you reach that five to 800units sold, then you start to
become attractive to a differenttier of content creators that
actually that are kind ofattuned to what that algorithm
(28:20):
looks like.
So that's really the biggestthing is getting a start getting
some purchases as fast as youcan, using an audience to get
some purchases.
Once you hit that couplehundred of sales, then really
start kind of putting thatinfluencer outreach on steroids,
and it's really a numbers game.
There's tools that you can kindof automate the outreach.
(28:40):
One of the other things thatTikTok does is kind of gamify
different.
It unlocks different thingsthat you can do.
So I add a certain number ofsales that you can then send an
unlimited number of messages toaffiliates on the TikTok
platform where, if you don'thave that number, I think you're
limited to 500 a month orsomething like that.
So you know things like thatwhere it's just understanding
(29:03):
how to reach the rightinfluencer that is a good fit
for your product.
So that's what I've actuallyfound.
So there's a lot of brands thathave had success with the spray
and pray kind of method of justreaching out to as many as you
can.
I've the brands that I've seensucceed faster with their
influencers and content creatorsare the ones that go through
and talk to the ones that reallymake sense with their audience,
(29:26):
as opposed to just throwing itout there to just everybody.
That will create a video foryou.
So really targeted, knowing whoyour audience is and knowing
who has an audience thatoverlaps with that is where
brands are seeing the highestsuccess.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So would you say, matt, that if you're a brand,
let's say I mean, because manyof our listeners are established
brands on Amazon whether theyhave gone the extra mile to
build it into an actual brand ornot maybe is somewhat
questionable but they have apresence, let's say, which means
they have inventory.
(30:00):
Some of them have built a listand have some post-purchase
process in place where they'vegot subscribers and whatnot.
So if you were a brand that hassufficient inventory to support
it and has a list that youcould direct to a TikTok shop to
place orders, it strikes methat you are actually in a
(30:22):
really good position where youcould push through.
You know 500 to 1000 sales.
You know at or slightly abovecost, let's say, on TikTok to
your list and instantlybasically put yourself in that
position of not only havingbetter access to the better
creators on the platform, beingable to send more emails, you
(30:44):
know, getting more traction,that sort of thing, you know.
It feels like you're almost inthat sweet spot where you really
could I don't want to say gamethe system, but in a sense you
really have a good opportunitythere.
And on that question I have oneadditional, and that is when you
say 500 to a thousand orders.
It's for your entire shop,right Like it's not for a
(31:05):
specific product.
So in other words, you couldhave one low price product that
you have really good margins on,that you could easily sell at a
slight markup over cost and run1,000 units through in a hurry
and not really care about it.
But all of a sudden now yourentire shop and all of your
products end up now being ableto be exposed to those better
(31:25):
creators.
Is that an accuraterepresentation of the situation?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Well, it actually depends on how the content
creator is looking at your.
If you're reaching out to themtalking about a specific product
, then you know there are toolsthat they can see your overall
store sales, but it's mostly ata SKU level that they're seeing
those Because you can withoutusing any tools, at a SKU level
that they're seeing thoseBecause you can without using
any tools at all.
You can go to TikTok shop rightnow and, similar to how Amazon
(31:50):
showing X amount sold in thelast 30 days, tiktok has that as
well.
So your overall brand totalsare a little bit more hidden
than individual SKU totals.
So I was actually talking moreabout one for one particular
product, a thousand sales, orabout a couple hundred sales.
I think five to 800 is reallythat sweet spot.
But what was the other questionthat you asked, mike oh, about
(32:13):
what that has an audience, aboutbrands that have audience.
Actually, you know we all usedto quote unquote game, the
system on the Amazon side whenwe could do those search find
buys and people were doing thosecampaigns, those many chat
campaigns where it was going outrunning a Facebook ad getting
people in to make a purchase,then reimbursing them and asking
them to go search for aparticular keyword.
(32:34):
Tiktok is kind of still likethe days of the wild wild west
on the Amazon side and there aresome kind of gray hat types of
things.
Now I've always operated on theside of a risk reward type of a
decision tree.
Right now there's not really awhole lot of risk for those
types of things, for those typesof things that we used to do on
Amazon.
So you know, one of the methodsthat we're seeing have a lot of
(32:56):
success is kind of quoteunquote fake buys, where you
have your list, go out andpurchase X amount you know, say
15 units per purchase but thenalso only sending them one.
Amazon or TikTok only caresabout a shipping label being
created against an order.
They don't really know what'sgoing on inside of that box.
So that's kind of one of thegray hat tactics that people are
(33:18):
using now is to have peoplemake a purchase of more than one
unit but then just sending themone unit as opposed to sending
them whatever the number is.
So that's kind of a gray hatkind of.
Maybe leans more on the side ofblack hat, but it's still
things that Amazon or TikTok isstill in the early stages of.
It's the maturity of a platformto where things like that are
effective, and if you're notgonna use it, competitors are
(33:39):
going to.
So you know, if there'ssomething that you can do to get
to that thousand faster, that'swhat some of the brands that I
see are using as a tactic.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
So, as we wrap up with the last couple of minutes
here, you know what you know.
What final thoughts would youguys give the listeners as they
think about, you know,fortifying their brands in 2025?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I just think I would come back to the same thing that
that I've said previously, bothin this episode and in previous
podcasts, and that is anytimethere's a significant change on
the horizon.
You know, instead of seeing it,as you know, the sky is falling
.
Looking at it as this is anopportunity for me to set myself
apart from other sellers,because if I'm willing to put in
(34:25):
the effort and get good atwhatever this thing is that I
need to be able to do, there aregoing to be other sellers that
won't be willing to put in thateffort and they're going to lose
and I'm going to win, and it'sjust the nature of the game,
right?
So you know, when Amazon ischanging fees, okay, how can I
adjust, you know, my products.
Maybe I change the product size, maybe I change whatever.
You know, other sellers maybearen't going to make those
tweaks.
(34:46):
You know Trump is going toinstitute tariffs, you know, or
whatever.
Well, okay, that's the case.
Then do I have an easyopportunity to move into
someplace else for manufacturing, or do I have enough margin in
my product that I can afford topay for that additional tariff,
whereas everybody else in mycategory can't?
So you know, six months or ayear from now they might not
even be there.
And so now maybe I'm number 20because I'm priced at, you know,
(35:09):
50 bucks, but maybe by thistime next year I'm number three
because all those othercompetitors, you know now they
can't compete.
So I just say look at, look atthis as opportunity.
All of these changes that arecoming are just opportunities.
It's just a matter of changingyour mindset about it and making
sure that you see it that wayand figure out where is that
space?
How do I fit through thatgroove to make this an
(35:30):
opportunity for me that othersellers aren't going?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
to see talked about a lot in this conversation is
diversifying off of Amazon andknowing that any efforts you put
off of Amazon at some point aregoing to end up back on Amazon,
because most purchases involveAmazon at some point in the
(35:53):
cycle, whether it's not forproduct research and they start
there or they end there andactually make the purchase there
.
I think any focus you put offof Amazon is going to be time
well spent because it willaffect Amazon in the end anyways
.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, and I'll just leave with.
You know, I think, as much asthere's a lot of things that I'm
excited about for 2025, that atthe end of the day, it comes
down to you know firstprinciples and building a strong
brand, and those don't change.
So it's just a matter of youknow what that application looks
like, whether that's you knowgrowing on Amazon or on a new
(36:25):
platform like TikTok, or youknow somewhere else that if
you're applying those firstprinciples to a strong brand of
taking care of your customers,offering them more value than
what you're charging them, andkind of those things that we
know, and applying themeffectively and executing that,
you're going to see a lot ofsuccess in 2025 and beyond.
So, all right.
Well, that wraps up our episodefor 2025.
(36:47):
Thank everybody for listeningand we'll see you next time on
another Tactics Tuesday.
Welcome everybody to another episode of Brand
Fortress HQ.
Today, in this Tactics Tuesday,we're talking about big
opportunities for 2025, whatwe're most excited about as we
kick off the new year.
We just did an episode on, youknow, reflecting on 2024.
And now we want to take a lookat what we see coming up in 2025
, some of the predictions, someof the opportunities and just
(00:20):
what the landscape looks like.
So we were talking a little bitbefore we hit record on the
podcast, so I'm going to startjust kick it over to you, mike,
about what you are excited aboutfor 2025 and what you see in
the e-commerce and, specifically, amazon landscape.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I think one of the things that to me seems like the
biggest opportunity for, let'ssay, those individuals who see
their business as a business.
Right, it's not a series ofhacks.
You know that, you know they'regaming the system or things
like that, but they're reallylooking at it as a genuine
(00:54):
business, which means you buildit on actual business principles
good business.
You know how are you treatingyour customers, are you building
out a list?
Are you building loyalty?
Are you doing all of thosethings that a good business
should do for those individuals?
I think that 2025 is going to beable to come away from and
separate yourself from.
(01:14):
I think Chinese sellers, forthe most part, fall into that
category.
I think there's a lot of thingscoming up in 2025 that are
(01:37):
going to be that opportunity toreally start setting yourself
apart and giving you an edgeover those Chinese sellers and
over some of those sellers thatreally are just coming in and
trying to hack the system ratherthan actually build a business.
And one of those big things, Ithink is really Trump getting
elected and like him or hate him, whether you like what he's
going to do or you don't likewhat he's going to do, he's
going to do it, and some of thethings that he's going to do, I
(01:58):
actually think are going to be areally big help to those
sellers who really are lookingat it as a true business.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Matt, what about you?
What are some of the maybe oneor two things that you're
looking at for big opportunitiesin?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
2025 and are excited about.
For me, looking at your Amazonbusiness as a true business.
What that looks like to me andwhat I've been focusing on with
the brands that I work with istaking those Amazon blinders off
and looking at other channelsand not just not just focused on
that one channel, whichcontinues to get more expensive
and more competitive.
You know, tiktok is one of thebig things that came of last
(02:36):
year.
That is driving sales for a lotof brands.
I'm really excited about that.
You know, I think social sellingI don't think that we've even
seen a fraction of how popularthat can and will be.
I mean, that's how most peopleshop in China and other
countries and we're just kind ofnow starting to scratch the
surface of what that looks liketo drive traffic, which, you
(02:57):
know, focusing on pretty muchany area off of Amazon ends up
having some sort of a spillovereffect to Amazon.
I've seen so many brands in thepast year, in 2024, that had a
viral video go viral on TikTokand that ended up in actual
legitimate search volume on theAmazon platform.
(03:19):
So you know, that's that's kindof the big.
The biggest thing that I'm themost excited about is exploring
all of these other platforms,which will then obviously have
an effect on your Amazonbusiness with.
You know, amazon loves externaltraffic and that's going to
naturally happen as you start tofind these other channels to
get your products on.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of change that's going to
happen, like there is everyyear, and I think you know we
were talking about a little bitbefore we hit record on the
podcast happen, like there isevery year, and I think you know
we were talking about a littlebit before we hit record on the
podcast, and you know there'salways a couple of ways that you
can look at that.
Is that okay?
Here's another thing that Ihave to do, or have to adapt to,
or a change that I have to make, or looking at as an
opportunity.
And so you know, one of thethings that we were specifically
talking about before we hitrecord was new title policy that
(04:00):
Amazon has come out with in thelast couple of days that they
have said that they're going toput into effect starting in
about two weeks, which reallydoesn't give sellers a whole lot
of time in order to see ifthey're compliant.
Now there's a lot of differentquestions about how that will be
enforced and what it'llactually look like when that
(04:23):
policy goes live.
But I think you know before wehit record, Mike, you were
talking about this and I thinkit's a great point of because
what they're basically trying,what Amazon is trying to do, we
think based on this policy, iskind of clean up the titles on
product listings to make themmore customer friendly and look
more reputable, so they don'tlook like a whole bunch of just
(04:44):
keywords stuffed into a title,so they look more legitimate and
so there's more of a trustfactor for customers.
And, Mike, you were talkingabout how that actually gives US
and North American sellers anadvantage in the sense of being
a native speaking, the meansthat you can make that title
(05:08):
more effective, Whereas ifyou're just relying on ChatGPT
or some sort of tool in order todo that for you because you
don't speak the languagenatively and you can no longer
keyword stuff, that process isactually going to make it be
some good news for US sellersthat are facing some pretty
(05:28):
strong Chinese competition.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I think so.
I mean, I really feel like thatis one of the things that I've
been really trying hard this,probably the last few months,
but moving into this year ismoving away from this idea of I
have to do something to I get todo something, and I think
(05:50):
there's an aspect of that here.
You know, like, like you weresaying earlier, that you know
you could look at this as a oh,now I have to do all these
things and adjust my titles anddo all this stuff right, and,
rather than looking at it asthis process that you're going
to dread, looking at it as anopportunity to set yourself
(06:12):
apart, and this is a really goodopportunity.
I mean, one of the thingsthat's hurting American sellers
the most is the combination ofhigh fees on Amazon and the
influx of Chinese sellers,because the influx of Chinese
sellers has lowered the pricepoint in most categories, so
that there's a lot less marginavailable.
And then when you, at the sametime, see Amazon hiking their
(06:36):
fees, well then your margin issqueezed even more.
So if you're not a brand thathas really set yourself apart as
one that has a lot of brandloyalty and that commands a
higher price point, you'relosing on both ends.
And so one of the things thatwill be that value component is
being able to make yourself lookfar more legitimate and having
(06:58):
an edge in doing that.
Because, let's get very specific, the change in the title
requirements that Amazon issuggesting is that essentially,
no word outside of, likeprepositions and things like
that, no key phrase, you knowlike.
So for us, we sell, you know,let's say, a pool poll.
I can't put pool in my titlemore than twice.
(07:22):
I can't put pole in my titlemore than twice.
Well, that gets really sketchyif you know, if you have in the
past and, as Chinese sellersoften do, if you've just simply
been keyword stuffing, whereI've got pool pole, telescopic
pool pole, pool pole forcleaning, you know I've got it
four different ways, you know inmy title, but I've got pool in
(07:42):
there four times.
I've got pole in there fourtimes, I've got.
Well, now you can't do thatright.
So you have to find creativeways to be able to embed one key
phrase inside of another keyphrase inside of another key
phrase.
Well, if you know the Englishlanguage well, then you have an
opportunity to be able to dothat and intuitively think that
through and come up withcreative titles that make sense
(08:05):
to the buyer but also allow youto embed multiple key phrases
that you're looking to targetwhile not repeating those words
more than twice.
That's going to be really hardfor a Chinese seller, and
although I would argue thatChatGPT certainly gives them a
better opportunity to do thatthan they would if they didn't
(08:26):
have it, it is still not goingto do nearly as good a job as
somebody who has at least arelatively good understanding of
the English language, whichmeans you're American or.
UK or whatever.
So I do think there's an edgethere.
It gives you an opportunity toset yourself apart and I think
they're going to have a hardtime competing with that to set
yourself apart, and I thinkthey're going to have a hard
time competing with that.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
There are some things that Amazon does that feel like
they're against the seller.
Inbound placement fees, I think, are a good example of that.
Let's be honest.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Some of the things that you are against sellers?
Yes, they are, they're justbeing that way.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
They really are.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
They are true, and there are some things that they
do that are to make thecustomer's lives better or to
increase conversions for themthrough the customer.
I think this one falls into thecategory of.
To be honest, I think it makessense and I think that changing
your title to not allow the sameword twice, essentially what's
(09:19):
going to end up happening and Ithink why Amazon is making this
change is that it's going tomake the titles actually human
readable and for us and theproducts that I manage and list
on Amazon, I want that anywaysand I've been moving towards
more of contextual language inmy titles far before this rule
came out.
Because if you think about who,yes, it's important for Amazon
(09:40):
to know what your product is, soit knows who to show it to, but
it's essentially the customerthat's clicking on your listing
in the search results and ifthey don't understand what your
unique selling proposition is inthe title, then you're in the
sea of same with a whole bunchof other Chinese competitors
selling the same thing.
So I've been using my title toshow how I stand out, which
(10:02):
makes my titles more humanreadable, which I don't use the
same word 16 times because Iknow that that's not going to
make it human readable.
So I've been doing this forlonger than just Amazon forcing
us to.
I think it makes sense from thebuyer standpoint.
I think having clear, concisetitles that talk about the
product and why they should buythat one, I think it makes more
sense than the keyword stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well, I also think, reasonably speaking, if you are
a brand, a true brand, likeyou've been trying to build an
actual brand, then I think thelikelihood is you probably have
already been doing this.
Because, let's face it, youcan't sell you know, like
selling a pool poll if you'reselling that in a category where
every other seller is sellingit for 30 or 40 bucks and you're
(10:45):
trying to sell it for $100 or$200 in the case of our pool,
because of the qualitydifferential and the warranty.
You can't just throw up akeyword stuffed title that makes
no sense and think that aperson who's willing to spend
$200 for a pool poll is going tobuy your prop.
That is not going to happen.
So if you are already buildinga brand that sets you apart and
(11:07):
allows you to sell in thatpremium price point, I can
almost guarantee you are alreadydoing what it is that Amazon
wants you to do.
You might have to make a tweakhere and there, but ultimately
your titles are not going tochange much based on this new
rule.
I don't think it's going to be abig issue.
And again, same thing.
We've been doing it for years.
I'm not really concerned aboutit.
You know.
It's really not going to be.
It's going to be a blip and Ithink it's actually going to be
(11:28):
a positive one.
So you know, from thatstandpoint, I can't I really
can't see this as a bad thing.
I think everybody should belooking at it.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
At least those of us who aren't keyword stuffing
should this as really just anopportunity to again separate
yourselves more than you wereable to before.
Yeah, so switching gears alittle bit.
I think one of the other thingsthat I'm really excited about
this year is the expansion ofRufus and, specifically looking
at you know, I think we'll seean ad, some sort of ads
capability for Rufus roll outthis year, and so I've purposely
been using Rufus as part of theshopping experience just to get
(12:06):
more familiar with it when Ibuy things on Amazon, and I
think that there's Again I don'tthink, if we look at this year
what's the adoption across theentire Amazon customer base?
I think it's going to be singledigit percentage of customers.
However, right now, rufus showsthree or four products.
So compare that to if I'mputting in a search for a
(12:30):
certain product where there'sonly three or four options that
are coming up.
Now compare that to if I putthat into the standard search
bar, where there's 25 productsthat are coming up and half of
those are ads.
I think that there's an amazingopportunity, even if it's only
a single digit percentage ofcustomers that are coming up and
half of those are ads.
I think that there's an amazingopportunity, even if it's only
a single digit percentage ofcustomers that are actually
using Rufus right now in orderto what's probably going to be a
(12:55):
fairly cheap ad, in order tocapture those customers.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Well, I also think that it's.
I think that sellers are goingto have to pay much more
attention to Rufus, in the sensethat if you type in pool poll
and Rufus comes back with youknow three products, if you're
not one of those three products,then over time that's going to
(13:23):
become problematic.
Over time that's going tobecome problematic.
Right now it makes nodifference because, as you said,
it's single digits, right, youknow, in terms of percentage of
users that are actually lookingfor products in that way.
But Amazon is big on this.
They're pushing hard on movingin this direction of having more
shoppers using Rufus in thisway.
So you know that adoption isgoing to grow using Rufus in
(13:47):
this way.
So you know that adoption isgoing to grow and as it does,
it's going to become way morecritical that you become one of
those few products that areshowing up there.
If you don't want to have tospend money to have an ad placed
within Rufus which is going tohappen, that's going to be a
thing.
So it's not as if you won'thave the opportunity, but it'd
be way cheaper if you happen tobe one of the three that Rufus
is recommending.
And so I think you're ontosomething, john, in the sense of
(14:08):
one making sure that you'restarting to use Rufus so that
you understand how is itthinking?
What kind of products is itlisting?
Why is it listing thoseproducts versus other products?
So that you can start to adjusthow you're operating on Amazon
so that hopefully, you areshowing up as one of those few
products.
I also think it ties back to theconversation that we were just
having about titles, because ifyou think about AI, if you
(14:33):
keyword stealth and you don'tactually have a title that makes
any sense, then it's a lotharder for Rufus to figure out
what is your product.
And not only what is yourproduct, but how does your
product stand out from otherproducts in your category?
Like, why would I want to showyour product if somebody says
heavy-duty pool, pool versussome other product in that
(14:55):
category?
Well, if all you've done isjust kind of keyword stuff and
you haven't given it context toknow, then it may not show your
product, even though yours mightbe the one that's the most
relevant product for thatspecific search.
So writing those titles thatactually make sense not only to
a human being but also to AI andgives it the context that it
needs, is going to be criticalto having the opportunity to
(15:18):
show up in those top threelistings.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, and I well, and I would add, you know, just
based on, again, my experienceanecdotally using it, is that I
think that, or at least what Isaw from the results in using
Rufus, is it actually weightedthe summarized customer reviews
more than the title.
So if you're saying, hey, I'mlooking for you know, so I was
(15:43):
looking for a case for my newphone.
Hey, I wanted to have thisfeature and I want it to be, you
know, good protection for myphone, et cetera, et cetera,
like I forget exactly what youknow keywords I put in there.
But the interesting thing to mewas is that it's it seemed like
more of that data was actuallycoming from.
You know the summarized reviewsthat it has actually coming from
(16:06):
.
You know the summarized reviewsthat it has.
Like if you go down this, thereview section, and it gives
like a review, you know, summaryof the reviews of.
Like you know checkmarkcustomers have said that this is
a high quality product.
Customers have said this hasprotected their phone.
Well, you know and have saidthat it has this feature.
Like that appear to wait morethan things like the like the
title, which is very differentfrom what we've seen in the past
(16:28):
.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
There's something I want to say about that, but I
want to give Matt an opportunity.
I don't know if he's gotanything he wants to add to that
.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I don't.
Actually, my brain is spinningof what I'm going to do after we
get off this, because I haven'tplayed with Rufus anywhere near
as much as I should have, basedon this conversation.
So no, I'm making a checklist.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
So go ahead and say what you're going to say, mike.
So the thing that comes to mindfor me is you could, on the
surface of that, say that,especially if you're building a
list, right, and a list givesyou opportunity to request
reviews.
But I think, just ethically,you do have a responsibility to
not, let's say, force orsignificantly manipulate
(17:15):
customers into giving you aparticular kind of a review
versus something else.
Right, you know we're going topay you for good reviews.
Things like that.
None of us likes that.
If you're a good seller andyou're really trying to build a
good business, you don't likethat model.
However, I would say that,because that's true, and I have
seen that I haven't used Rufusas much as I think you probably
(17:35):
have John, but I have used itand that is something that I
noticed about it.
And so one of the interestingthings there is we've all seen
this in the past, I'm sure isyou know either these shows or
these clips.
You know video clips, thingslike that, where you use I don't
know what the terminology ispsychology is not my thing but
(17:56):
these primers, let's say, right,like in a conversation you
prime somebody psychologicallyto be thinking in a certain way
by the things that you do andthe things that you say you know
right.
So, as you're thinking aboutyour post-purchase process with
your customer and, by the way,you need one If you don't have a
(18:19):
post-purchase process, you'realready screwed.
So you should be working onthat, but in that post-purchase
process.
So you should be working onthat, but in that post-purchase
process leading up to any ofthose specific points in the
process where you know customerstend to be in that space where
they're going to leave a reviewright.
So for us, when we fulfill on awarranty and the process is
(18:42):
super easy and super fast andthey don't have to jump through
hoops and everything we know,that's the moment at which a lot
of people are going to go leavea review for us, because in
that moment they're like holycrap, that was as easy as a
warranty has ever been.
I'm going to leave these guys afive star review right, which
is great.
But if we don't prime them tosome degree in terms of some of
(19:03):
the phrasings that they mightuse or the ways that they might
describe the process to Amazonor describe the product to
Amazon, then we're leaving.
I think, an opportunity on thetable Because if we know they're
going to leave review, if wecraft our messaging to them in
such a way that we can primesome of that, we're putting some
things in their mind aboutspecific things about the
(19:26):
product that we know we wantRufus to hear, or things about
our warranty that we know wewant Rufus to hear.
If we're priming them in thoselast moments before the review,
we've got a much better chancethat the reviews they leave are
going to positively impact Rufusthe exact way that we want them
to.
So be thinking about that.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
You know in that post-purchase process with your
customer, so be thinking aboutthat you know, in that
post-purchase process with yourcustomer, John, as you play
around with Rufus like how, I'mstill having a hard time because
I haven't played with it asmuch, how, how is it going to
influence a buying?
So when they ask a question,let's cause.
I see it pop up every once in awhile when I'm actually
shopping on Amazon, and if I'mif I I'm pretty brand loyal
(20:05):
though, so so I tend to not lookaround the page very often, but
if I'm shopping for an eyecream or something along those
lines and it asks me a question,so if I say looking for a men's
eye cream, I type it in thesearch bar and I have a question
down here that it asked meabout an eye cream.
Does it do this or does it dothat?
Is that when I see the threechoices, or do I have to go
through a tree of differentquestions before I get to where
(20:28):
it's actually suggesting brandsfor me?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
No, what I've so, what I've done, or what I've
seen recently, is that, like youcan type in something like hey,
I'm looking for an eye creamfor men, so it's as general or
specific as you want, and thenit'll show you, hey, here's a
few really popular eye cream formen.
(20:51):
But then what it'll also do issay it'll prompt some additional
questions for you.
Or like, hey, here's somepopular questions that customers
have asked and you can justclick essentially on that
pre-populated prompt and thenit'll show you the products that
show that prompt.
So, going back to like my phonecase example, like I wanted a
(21:14):
case, I wanted a soft case, Ididn't want a hard case.
So you know it would show like,hey, are you looking for a hard
case or a soft case?
And so then I could click onthe soft case.
Are you looking for, you know,something that also protects the
screen?
Are you looking for, you know,this feature, that feature?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So I mean it and here's the most qualifying the
customer by walking in throughthat process.
Yes, yes To a certain extent.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Now, what I experienced out of that was,
every time that you would like,if you asked a question or you
clicked on one of thosepre-populated prompts as it was
kind of guessing what you werelooking for asking you more
questions about what you'relooking for, it's showing you
three or four products each time.
So if I would have clicked on,hey, I want a soft case.
(22:05):
Well, okay, now here's, youknow, three or four more
products, and some of thoseproducts might be the same as
what it showed me before, basedon the information, and some of
them might be different or theymight be all different,
depending on.
You know how it answers thatquestion, gotcha.
I mean I would say I use itmost recently on desktop and I
(22:26):
will say the one thing that Ididn't like about it was is that
the screen is super small, likeit only takes up like a quarter
of your regular screen on thebrowser, so it was a little bit
hard to navigate.
But I think, you know, forpeople that are you know, half
of people are are mobileshoppers at this point, for them
it's probably pretty intuitiveand pretty native and you did.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
You say have you tested on mobile yet, or only on
desktop?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I have tested it on mobile.
I haven't used it as much onmobile as I have on desktop,
because I'm more of a a desktopwhen I'm buying things, as
opposed to mobile.
Yeah, hmm.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
So I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I've ever.
I'm almost entirely the reverse.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I don't know that I've ever bought.
Yeah, I don't think I've everbought on my desktop, ever ever
bought something on Amazon on mydesktop?
No, my wife always buys ondesktop Like she's.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
She's kind of the same way as as you, john, as you
, john, like she's.
Like no, I want the full screen, I want to have you know, like
I'm just like nah, this is rightin my hand, I don't.
Why do I want to?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
just like because I want to compare, like you know,
usually three to five products,and then, if I pull up you know
three to five products in thebrowser, I can look at them all
kind of side by side, as opposedto kind of one at a time.
Yeah for sure.
So, yeah, I think it'll bereally.
I mean, I think most people atthis point, though, are using
the mobile experience, and so Ithink it'll be interesting to
(23:47):
see what that looks like, Ithink, as we kind of wrap up.
I think the last one I want totalk about as far as
opportunities, that I'm excitedabout is, you know, assuming
that it doesn't get shut down,which I don't think it will but
TikTok, I think, just the riseof TikTok and the improvement of
Walmart, because I think that'sgoing to be great for brands in
(24:08):
the sense of, you know,hopefully it'll keep some of
these fees and other kind ofsilly policy changes that Amazon
has made in check, and it'llalso give, I think, brands an
opportunity.
It's already given brands anopportunity in order to
diversify beyond the Amazonplatform.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I think there's a chance that Walmart will be able
to increase their market sharein that space, and, as they do,
I do think it is highly likelyit's going to have an effect on
how Amazon fees are assessed tosellers.
On how Amazon fees are assessedto sellers.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Who knows?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
if Walmart grabs enough of market share, maybe
some of the fees start gettingreduced or reversed.
Difficult to say In the moment.
Amazon still has such a massivepercentage of the market that
they're reasonably the only gamein town, but I think there's a
chance that that becomes adifferent play.
I also think that to somedegree TikTok does play into
(25:05):
that, because now that TikTokshop does exist, a lot of these
products that traditionallywould have been Amazon products,
many of them now are startingon and maybe even staying
exclusively on TikTok, becausethe fees have traditionally been
less on TikTok.
(25:26):
But also they have theopportunity for this kind of
viral nature and if it's aproduct that really is conducive
to that, then they're almostbetter off there in some
respects than on Amazon.
So I do think TikTok andWalmart both have, you know,
make it a good opportunitypotentially for for sellers to
start seeing we'll say, better,better relationship with Amazon
(25:48):
if we're lucky.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, I mean again, I don't expect any sort of.
I wouldn't expect fees to comedown anytime soon.
I think it's probably morelikely that the increases will
just not be as big as whatthey've been in the past.
But I wouldn't expect anyAmazon to come along and lower
fees in a significant way forsellers anytime in the near
future.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So, matt, what are you seeing?
I know that you've been doing alot of research on TikTok
lately and I know that beyondour brand, I know there's other
brands that you're also workingwith.
What are you starting to see inthat space, as far as TikTok
goes, in terms of you know realworld, you know tires to the
road, kind of thing?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Well, I think, first of all, the working with content
creators and and affiliates, Ithink, is I enjoy that more than
just feeding the Amazonadvertising beast.
To be honest, I think that Ithink that there's a the.
The fact that you the viralitypart of this makes things very
(26:48):
exciting, cause I mean, if youcan figure out, like a lot of
these content creators havefigured out, the virality part
of the TikTok algorithm, and youdon't need very many followers
for your brand in order for yourproduct to go viral, and that's
what I love about thatopportunity and that's why a lot
of brands are focusing theirattention on it.
I think that what I'm seeingspecifically on TikTok is that,
(27:13):
first of all, there's a lot ofcontent creators now and the
ones that are good, that you cansee in like these tools using
like CaloData or FastMoss, whereyou can actually see how much
GMB they're driving, how muchrevenue they're driving.
The good ones typically they'regetting hundreds and hundreds
of emails a day, so it's hard tokind of break through the noise
(27:35):
for the ones that actually knowwhat they're doing and have an
audience.
The smaller content creatorsthere seems like everyone and
their mom is a content creatornow and they're kind of reversed
.
They're reaching out to brandssaying, hey, can I do videos for
you?
So I think you have to havesome sort of traction on TikTok
in order to attract theinfluencers and content creators
(27:56):
that actually know what they'redoing.
So that's kind of what we'reworking on now.
There's a couple of other brandnew brands that I'm helping to
launch on the TikTok platformthat we're getting there seems
to be about a magic number ofanywhere between five to 800.
Once you reach that five to 800units sold, then you start to
become attractive to a differenttier of content creators that
actually that are kind ofattuned to what that algorithm
(28:20):
looks like.
So that's really the biggestthing is getting a start getting
some purchases as fast as youcan, using an audience to get
some purchases.
Once you hit that couplehundred of sales, then really
start kind of putting thatinfluencer outreach on steroids,
and it's really a numbers game.
There's tools that you can kindof automate the outreach.
(28:40):
One of the other things thatTikTok does is kind of gamify
different.
It unlocks different thingsthat you can do.
So I add a certain number ofsales that you can then send an
unlimited number of messages toaffiliates on the TikTok
platform where, if you don'thave that number, I think you're
limited to 500 a month orsomething like that.
So you know things like thatwhere it's just understanding
(29:03):
how to reach the rightinfluencer that is a good fit
for your product.
So that's what I've actuallyfound.
So there's a lot of brands thathave had success with the spray
and pray kind of method of justreaching out to as many as you
can.
I've the brands that I've seensucceed faster with their
influencers and content creatorsare the ones that go through
and talk to the ones that reallymake sense with their audience,
(29:26):
as opposed to just throwing itout there to just everybody.
That will create a video foryou.
So really targeted, knowing whoyour audience is and knowing
who has an audience thatoverlaps with that is where
brands are seeing the highestsuccess.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
So would you say, matt, that if you're a brand,
let's say I mean, because manyof our listeners are established
brands on Amazon whether theyhave gone the extra mile to
build it into an actual brand ornot maybe is somewhat
questionable but they have apresence, let's say, which means
they have inventory.
(30:00):
Some of them have built a listand have some post-purchase
process in place where they'vegot subscribers and whatnot.
So if you were a brand that hassufficient inventory to support
it and has a list that youcould direct to a TikTok shop to
place orders, it strikes methat you are actually in a
(30:22):
really good position where youcould push through.
You know 500 to 1000 sales.
You know at or slightly abovecost, let's say, on TikTok to
your list and instantlybasically put yourself in that
position of not only havingbetter access to the better
creators on the platform, beingable to send more emails, you
(30:44):
know, getting more traction,that sort of thing, you know.
It feels like you're almost inthat sweet spot where you really
could I don't want to say gamethe system, but in a sense you
really have a good opportunitythere.
And on that question I have oneadditional, and that is when you
say 500 to a thousand orders.
It's for your entire shop,right Like it's not for a
(31:05):
specific product.
So in other words, you couldhave one low price product that
you have really good margins on,that you could easily sell at a
slight markup over cost and run1,000 units through in a hurry
and not really care about it.
But all of a sudden now yourentire shop and all of your
products end up now being ableto be exposed to those better
(31:25):
creators.
Is that an accuraterepresentation of the situation?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Well, it actually depends on how the content
creator is looking at your.
If you're reaching out to themtalking about a specific product
, then you know there are toolsthat they can see your overall
store sales, but it's mostly ata SKU level that they're seeing
those Because you can withoutusing any tools, at a SKU level
that they're seeing thoseBecause you can without using
any tools at all.
You can go to TikTok shop rightnow and, similar to how Amazon
(31:50):
showing X amount sold in thelast 30 days, tiktok has that as
well.
So your overall brand totalsare a little bit more hidden
than individual SKU totals.
So I was actually talking moreabout one for one particular
product, a thousand sales, orabout a couple hundred sales.
I think five to 800 is reallythat sweet spot.
But what was the other questionthat you asked, mike oh, about
(32:13):
what that has an audience, aboutbrands that have audience.
Actually, you know we all usedto quote unquote game, the
system on the Amazon side whenwe could do those search find
buys and people were doing thosecampaigns, those many chat
campaigns where it was going outrunning a Facebook ad getting
people in to make a purchase,then reimbursing them and asking
them to go search for aparticular keyword.
(32:34):
Tiktok is kind of still likethe days of the wild wild west
on the Amazon side and there aresome kind of gray hat types of
things.
Now I've always operated on theside of a risk reward type of a
decision tree.
Right now there's not really awhole lot of risk for those
types of things, for those typesof things that we used to do on
Amazon.
So you know, one of the methodsthat we're seeing have a lot of
(32:56):
success is kind of quoteunquote fake buys, where you
have your list, go out andpurchase X amount you know, say
15 units per purchase but thenalso only sending them one.
Amazon or TikTok only caresabout a shipping label being
created against an order.
They don't really know what'sgoing on inside of that box.
So that's kind of one of thegray hat tactics that people are
(33:18):
using now is to have peoplemake a purchase of more than one
unit but then just sending themone unit as opposed to sending
them whatever the number is.
So that's kind of a gray hatkind of.
Maybe leans more on the side ofblack hat, but it's still
things that Amazon or TikTok isstill in the early stages of.
It's the maturity of a platformto where things like that are
effective, and if you're notgonna use it, competitors are
(33:39):
going to.
So you know, if there'ssomething that you can do to get
to that thousand faster, that'swhat some of the brands that I
see are using as a tactic.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
So, as we wrap up with the last couple of minutes
here, you know what you know.
What final thoughts would youguys give the listeners as they
think about, you know,fortifying their brands in 2025?
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I just think I would come back to the same thing that
that I've said previously, bothin this episode and in previous
podcasts, and that is anytimethere's a significant change on
the horizon.
You know, instead of seeing it,as you know, the sky is falling
.
Looking at it as this is anopportunity for me to set myself
apart from other sellers,because if I'm willing to put in
(34:25):
the effort and get good atwhatever this thing is that I
need to be able to do, there aregoing to be other sellers that
won't be willing to put in thateffort and they're going to lose
and I'm going to win, and it'sjust the nature of the game,
right?
So you know, when Amazon ischanging fees, okay, how can I
adjust, you know, my products.
Maybe I change the product size, maybe I change whatever.
You know, other sellers maybearen't going to make those
tweaks.
(34:46):
You know Trump is going toinstitute tariffs, you know, or
whatever.
Well, okay, that's the case.
Then do I have an easyopportunity to move into
someplace else for manufacturing, or do I have enough margin in
my product that I can afford topay for that additional tariff,
whereas everybody else in mycategory can't?
So you know, six months or ayear from now they might not
even be there.
And so now maybe I'm number 20because I'm priced at, you know,
(35:09):
50 bucks, but maybe by thistime next year I'm number three
because all those othercompetitors, you know now they
can't compete.
So I just say look at, look atthis as opportunity.
All of these changes that arecoming are just opportunities.
It's just a matter of changingyour mindset about it and making
sure that you see it that wayand figure out where is that
space?
How do I fit through thatgroove to make this an
(35:30):
opportunity for me that othersellers aren't going?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
to see talked about a lot in this conversation is
diversifying off of Amazon andknowing that any efforts you put
off of Amazon at some point aregoing to end up back on Amazon,
because most purchases involveAmazon at some point in the
(35:53):
cycle, whether it's not forproduct research and they start
there or they end there andactually make the purchase there
.
I think any focus you put offof Amazon is going to be time
well spent because it willaffect Amazon in the end anyways
.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yeah, and I'll just leave with.
You know, I think, as much asthere's a lot of things that I'm
excited about for 2025, that atthe end of the day, it comes
down to you know firstprinciples and building a strong
brand, and those don't change.
So it's just a matter of youknow what that application looks
like, whether that's you knowgrowing on Amazon or on a new
(36:25):
platform like TikTok, or youknow somewhere else that if
you're applying those firstprinciples to a strong brand of
taking care of your customers,offering them more value than
what you're charging them, andkind of those things that we
know, and applying themeffectively and executing that,
you're going to see a lot ofsuccess in 2025 and beyond.
So, all right.
Well, that wraps up our episodefor 2025.
(36:47):
Thank everybody for listeningand we'll see you next time on
another Tactics Tuesday.
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