Episode Transcript
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Doug Berger (00:00):
Welcome to the latest in installment of Brand
of Brothers.
I'm Doug.
Johnny Diggz (00:02):
And I'm Johnny.
Today we're talking aboutstartups and the power of visual
content.
Doug Berger (00:06):
Alright, let's get to it.
Johnny Diggz (00:16):
So let's start with this.
Um, when people think ofbranding, they sometimes just
think of a logo, but, uh, youare saying that logo isn't
necessarily the brand.
Doug Berger (00:28):
The logo is definitely not the brand.
The brand is much greater thanthat.
So a logo is.
Something that's more along thelines of a screwdriver in a
toolbox, right?
So it's good for some things,but not for everything.
You don't use a, I mean, if, ifyou're a normal person, you
don't use a screwdriver tohammer in a nail, right?
(00:50):
So the big idea when it comes toa brand is it's not just the
visual, it's the verbal as well.
So you need to focus on bothyour messaging and your visual
identity and your visualidentity.
Again, it's not just the logo,it's your color palette, it's
your typography, it's yourpatterns, and so on.
Um, and, and, and, but one thingthat I've definitely noticed is
(01:13):
that a lot of of startupsspecifically struggle with
crafting a brand story That,that just.
It feels generic.
Right.
So from your experience, and,and I know that you've, you've
started up a lot of companies,how can a new company create an
authentic story that resonateswith its audiences?
Johnny Diggz (01:34):
Well, it's a really valid question.
It's really hard to do, and.
Uh, I can only tell you from myexperience that, uh, we, we
typically started with the logofirst.
I mean, that was actually, westarted with a name first, and I
think that's probably what a lotof companies do is that they,
(01:54):
they come up with a name or anidea for a name, and then they
start searching for domain namesthat are available.
Is that, it seems like.
That definitely happens a lot
Doug Berger (02:03):
these days more than, than, uh, certainly, uh,
in, in the early nineties forsure.
Sure.
And then,
Johnny Diggz (02:08):
yeah, and we had all those domain, um, uh, domain
name, uh, what do they call'em?
The guys who bought all thedomains and, oh, squatters,
right?
Squatters, yeah, that's thename.
So, uh, but so beyond just thedomain name and the name of the
company.
Then you have to come up withsome sort of visual identity.
(02:30):
And usually within my realm, wewere, I, I've been dealing with
tech startups.
So tech startups, the very firstthing you do is put up a
website, which is why you needthe domain name, and then you
need, uh, a logo.
But beyond that.
We didn't, we didn't, you know,we didn't have money to, to hire
(02:50):
an agency.
We didn't, you know, this ispre-funding and so once you get
funding, you can take it a stepfurther.
And that's exactly what we did.
We got, you know, we, we came upwith a, a name and a logo.
We built a website, we built aPowerPoint, and then we went out
and tried to raise money and wewere successful, uh, in that.
(03:12):
And then you take it to the nextstep, and that's when.
We brought in an an agency andactually.
Revisited our logo, looked,realized all the ways that our
logo wasn't working, why itwasn't working.
It doesn't work, you know, inreverse or it doesn't work in a
box or
Doug Berger (03:26):
Sure.
But you started up a bunch ofcompanies, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so you would learn from yourmistakes along the way.
Was there ever a point in timewhere, uh, authentic
storytelling was a thing foryou?
Or did that really become, uh,more prevalent when your, when,
when really your startupsbecame.
(03:47):
Huge, right?
Yeah.
Uh, pre, pre-acquisition andstarted working with agencies,
like where along the way wouldyou find that the storytelling,
uh, became interwoven into youroverarching, uh, startup brands?
Johnny Diggz (04:01):
You know, it, it sort of evolved naturally, um,
because we were building acommunity and in, in, in both,
uh, both the, the brands that Iwas involved with.
Um, my role was more in thedeveloper outreach and building
a, a developer community, andthat was sort of our brand story
(04:24):
with, with Tropo that was.
Uh, we were one and the same asour developer community because
it was, that was our, or we werea platform for developers.
Yeah.
For the Cisco
Doug Berger (04:35):
developers.
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
Well,
Johnny Diggz (04:36):
eventually we became a Cisco.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Doug Berger (04:39):
Um, and, and, and to that end, what did you
discover were, were some of thebest platforms, your best ways
to reach your audiences?
Johnny Diggz (04:47):
Obviously web was, was one, but we, we, we did a
multi-pronged approach.
We did a lot of hackathon typeevents.
We did a lot of, uh, events in,in live events in, in all around
the world.
Um, but, you know, primarily weengaged with them via the web
and a little bit with, you know,blog posts.
(05:09):
Uh, we used, you know, somesocial media as well, but, um,
but I would say our.
Our strongest in that particularrealm was, was our, you know, in
personal, in-person events, but,
Doug Berger (05:23):
well, nothing beats in person.
Right?
Yeah.
When it, when it, when it comesto, to creating a brand that has
a, an authentic experience that,that in-person human touch,
nothing can really beat it.
Johnny Diggz (05:36):
One of the interesting things that happened
when, when, uh.
We launched Tropo, we had one,one brand identity.
And uh, when I came in, we werein, in, in the midst of trying
to take it to a different, in adifferent direction.
That sounds familiar.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
'cause that's when you and Iwere working together.
But, um, but one of the thingsthat we were trying to deal with
(06:00):
was the consistency of thebrand.
Um, we went from, uh, like a,like a cloudy type.
The thing to, we wanted to getmore enterprisey and, uh, and
uh, and so, um, how did Hu help?
Maintain the consistency.
Right.
Getting, like, you kind ofguided us in that.
Doug Berger (06:22):
I did, I did.
Uh, along with, with Simon andYeah.
Yeah.
And the rest of our staff hereat Remix.
Um, so the, the, the key toconsistency kind of takes me
back to what we were talkingabout just moments ago regarding
visual identity.
That it's not just the logo,it's the colors and it's the
type faces and it's the patternsand textures.
(06:44):
Along with the, the visual langlanguage, there was also the
verbal language.
Right.
So what we tried to do was makeit so anytime we were doing any
sort of marketing, and it couldhave been in person, right, with
your, your, your exhibitgraphics.
It could have been online, uh,with just the, your typical ux,
(07:07):
the type faces.
The color palettes, those wereall consistent.
And we tried to maintain adegree of consistency with the
way that the logo was presentedas well.
Making it so there were brandstandards that would go out, uh,
like for example, when you were,uh, when, when you were, uh,
sponsoring an event.
(07:27):
Uh, you'd have to provide them alogo.
Well, providing them a logodoesn't make sure that your logo
appears how you want it toappear.
Johnny Diggz (07:35):
I learned that the hard way many, many times that,
that you just by.
You, you can't trust anyone withyour logo because you can
guarantee that if it doesn't fitin somebody else's mind and, and
how in their design they willchange it.
Doug Berger (07:53):
I don't know what you're talking about As a
designer, I've never done that.
Ever.
Okay.
Maybe a few times.
Um, so you had just mentionedabout the in-person stuff and,
and it's so true, how, howeffective it is.
So building a brand isn't justabout visuals, right?
It's.
Also about building communities.
What are some effective ways forstartups to engage with their
(08:14):
audience beyond just posting onsocial media?
Johnny Diggz (08:19):
Well.
That you, it's so easy to fallinto that trap because social
media is easy to, to do.
Right?
So you can do for some people.
Yes.
Well, well, I'm saying thatthere's, there's very little
barrier to entry.
Anybody who has access to thesocial media account can post
something.
So it's, it's easy to think, oh,I did three posts this week.
(08:43):
You know, I did two blogs and,uh, and I, and I, you know, did
a couple tweets or, or Facebookposts, and that checks the box
for your community engagementfor the week.
Um, we would, on top of that,organize events.
We did organize meetups, we'dorganize, uh, drink up, uh,
(09:06):
really like doing a, amulti-pronged approach.
To, uh, we also, uh, organized,uh, contests, uh, developer
contests and all of these thingsto try to engage our audience
to, to, uh, to use our platform.
And, uh, you know, it's, uh,speaking of that, um, you know,
(09:30):
visual content, um, has been ahuge.
Driver in, in marketing, uh,lately.
And, uh, what, what visuals doyou think are, are more
effective in, uh, wow.
What a
Doug Berger (09:46):
question.
Johnny Diggz (09:47):
Yeah.
Uh, so, because plain, plaintext doesn't always, you know,
you can, you can get yourmessaging off over with plain
text, but what, what, what areyour, you know, what can you do
visually?
Doug Berger (10:00):
So there are a bunch of different things that
can be done.
Uh, from a visual communicationsperspective and, and just like,
you know, social media creating,uh, graphics that are enticing,
uh, it, and it, it, it could beas simple as, uh, and we've seen
these before and it's a littlebit hokey where it's a famous
quote or it's a quote fromsomeone famous, uh, uh, and,
(10:24):
and, and.
The bigger idea, the underlyingidea is that that quote, for
example, would reflect yourethos as a company and it would
be dual purpose.
That second purpose is aboutawareness generation, right?
Then we can take it one stepfurther.
Uh, and that's withinfographics.
So we'll take a key series ofdata.
(10:48):
And present that as pertinentinformation to a customer's
audiences.
And so the, the first way, ofcourse, it, it's lovely to have
a static graphic, but the secondand more effective way is to
convert those static graphicsinto video and animated
components, especially whenyou're putting that stuff on
(11:09):
social media, because we knowthat.
Things like, uh, reels andTikTok are far more effective
than even a carousel ad, and weknow that carousels are, are
basically second to videocontent.
Johnny Diggz (11:25):
Um, you know, we were talking a little bit about
the, uh, uh, how other people,uh, will change your logo and I
was just thinking about.
The, the idea of the brandguidelines, which you kind of
introduced me to the, the con,the idea that there's sort of
rules and restrictions that getYes.
(11:48):
We call
Doug Berger (11:48):
it a brand Bible sometimes.
Yes.
Brand Bible.
Johnny Diggz (11:51):
Um, uh, I kind of, I, I, I both appreciated it, but
I also found it restrictive.
Restrictive, yeah.
So tell, talk to me about wherethey're appropriate, why, why
you use them.
Doug Berger (12:04):
So brand guidelines or brand guide or house style
guide, what whatever, whateverterminology you use.
Like I said, brand Bible, um.
They, they are intentionallyrestrictive to make sure that a
brand is presented in what Irefer to as the three Cs, that
it's cohesive, coherent, andconsistent.
(12:26):
It also, uh, increaseslegibility, right?
So you don't want your logo, forexample, to be placed on a busy
background because then yourlogo gets gobbled up.
You don't want your.
Uh, typeface to be presented ina different color palette that
doesn't reflect the tone of yourbrand, right?
(12:49):
You don't want to introduce pinkand purple when your colors are
blue and gray.
They're obviously disparate, andso what this does is it helps to
make certain that your tone.
Is put forward in an effectiveway and in a positive light.
And the other key reason that wehave these guidelines is because
(13:11):
it's not always one personthat's working on your marketing
materials.
Oftentimes they're teams.
And even beyond that, you havemultiple different groups that
are working on it.
So you have your internalmarketing department, for
example, you have your WestCoast agency and your East Coast
agency as a possibility.
(13:31):
And then on top of that.
You're relying on vendorssometimes to put together
content, right?
You might be working with avendor who takes care of all of
your SEM and who takes care ofall of your social media
marketing, specifically the paidside, and so you provide them
your brand assets, uh, includingphotography.
(13:53):
And, uh, it, it, along with allof your logo elements, your,
your brand elements, and youwanna make sure that that's
consistent.
Whatever it is that they'recreating, you wanna make sure
that that is in line and in tunewith the other stuff that you
are creating.
And, and, and one thing thatI've noticed, and I I, if you'll
forgive me, I want to get backto the idea of startups.
(14:16):
Um, I find that startups.
Tend to struggle with where tofocus their marketing efforts.
And if a startup has limitedresources, like I know you
certainly have experienced thebeginnings and the ends of a, a
startup where you have aninfinite, infinite decimal
amount of, uh, of, of, ofresources all the way up to now
(14:38):
you're supported by a Fortune100 company.
Um, what.
Have been the best ways toprioritize online presence and
engagements.
Johnny Diggz (14:49):
So the, the, the key that I've always found, um,
and what, you know, when you'redealing with a limited budget
and you're, um, sort of, uh,gorilla marketing something
yourself, um.
Consist consistently, uh,touching your, your audience.
(15:09):
So updating your contentregularly is, is sort of a, a
given.
You have to do that, that's likethe bare baseline because if
somebody goes to your blog andor your.
Uh, Facebook page, your,whatever.
Wherever you have an onlinepresence and you don't have
(15:30):
recent relevant content, um,they're more likely to, to just
move on to somebody else thatmight look like they're actively
participating with theiraudience.
So, so, uh, I think the keythere is.
Uh, to, to make sure that, um,that you're regularly updating
(15:50):
your content and also, uh,keeping up with, with what's
going on in your space is, iscritical.
Um, there are always changes andno matter what vertical you're
in, uh, there's always newtechnology.
There's always new competition.
There's always news, newregulations, any, anything that
affects your particular sector.
(16:12):
Um, is something that you shouldactively participate in and you
don't necessarily need torespond to anything or have a
position on everything, but atleast be aware of it and make
sure that all of your onlinecontent is sort of reflected in,
uh, in how your, uh, uh,proceeding.
Doug Berger (16:32):
It almost sounds like you're suggesting maybe a
holistic content marketingstrategy.
Johnny Diggz (16:37):
Well, I mean, that, that would be the optimal
thing, so.
Um, when, you know, when you,when you aspire to have
holistic, here's the thing, moststartups don't have the
bandwidth to do that.
And, um, and so, uh, it, it, butit's, it, it definitely helps.
(17:01):
And when I, when I was able to,when I had a bigger budget.
And was able to address things,um, across the board in all of,
you know, all the aspects thatwe were, uh, sending out our
messages.
Um, it was a lot easier because,you know, again, that consistent
co consistency.
(17:22):
Uh, what, what do the three Cs a
Doug Berger (17:23):
consistent, coherent and cohesive.
Johnny Diggz (17:26):
I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to, to steal that
one.
So we got.
You know, I'm gonna go back tothe video side of things.
Um, and one thing I've noticed,we have, uh, Facebook reels,
we've got TikTok stories or, uh,TikTok just in general.
(17:47):
TikTok and, well, they havetheir own stories too now within
TikTok.
Oh, man.
Yeah, yeah.
See, we're both learning
Doug Berger (17:52):
new
Johnny Diggz (17:52):
things today and, uh, we had Instagram stories.
Um, and they've kind of changed,uh, this, this, uh, we call it
short form content.
Um, and, uh, a lot I'm seeingmore and more, uh, companies
kind of dive into this as a wayof getting their messaging out.
(18:15):
Um, but how do you, how do you,how do you manage video content,
um, and while maintaining yourthree Cs.
And also keeping within abudget.
Doug Berger (18:28):
It.
You know, it's funny, I I, I, Ididn't intentionally bring up a
content marketing strategy, um,but it, it's pretty clear that
the answer to your question isto have a proactive content
marketing strategy.
So I.
Uh, like you said, startupsspecifically tend not to have
the bandwidth and, and even, uh,even smaller SMBs, right?
(18:51):
Like there are plenty of five to10 person companies that
generally believe they don'thave the bandwidth necessary to
implement a proactive contentmarketing strategy.
But if you take the time.
To develop the materials and todevelop a, a mode, uh, for
(19:12):
getting the content out there.
Then you have the ability to bea, a little bit more effective.
Um,
Johnny Diggz (19:20):
can, can, real quick on the, before you go onto
the next, I wanted to ask youabout content marketing because.
I know what I think it is, but Iwant to hear what you think it
is.
Oh gosh.
Doug Berger (19:35):
See, this is setting me up for potentially
being completely wrong.
Uh, so, so generally speaking.
It's marketing through the useof content, right?
So I'm just gonna completelydistill it down to, to its bare,
to its bare bones and really thewords, right?
Should we open the webdictionary
Johnny Diggz (19:52):
defines content marketing as
Doug Berger (19:55):
so, so when it comes to content marketing, uh,
generally it's done digitally.
Right.
So like you had mentionedpreviously, you have your blog
posts, uh, which we're movingaway from the terminology of it
being called the blog postarticles toward articles.
Articles or just post.
Yeah.
Um, so it, it depends, right?
Because sometimes these articleseven live in, in knowledge
(20:16):
bases, right?
And KBS can still be used aspart of a content strategy.
So the big idea here is to.
Not only create relevance, uh,from the perspective of, of
generating content that ismeaningful today, it's also
about distributing that content.
(20:38):
And then in that distributionyou are, you are gaining
eyeballs, right?
You are, you're telling peoplethat you just posted an article,
you're telling people that youjust posted a video.
You are telling people that.
You're doing something, and thebig idea is creating awareness.
(21:00):
Now, the next step is a call toaction.
So it's not just posting onFacebook or posting on Instagram
or TikTok or what have you.
It's getting the message out toall of your various audiences on
a, a variety of platforms.
And ultimately that just meansmaking sure that your content is
(21:21):
adequately marketed.
Johnny Diggz (21:23):
You mentioned, uh, call to action or, uh, CTA.
And, uh, and you know, one ofthe things that, that you and I,
I always joke with you about isthat I'm, you know, when things
get too markety Yes.
Um, it, it kind of turns me off.
And part of that comes from mybackground.
As a developer evangelist thatlearning very quickly that most
(21:46):
developers don't want to bemarketed to.
And, and, well, I think it'strue of most people in general,
yeah.
Don't want to feel like they'vegot, they're getting marketed
to, despite the fact that we arebombarded by marketing from
every direction.
Um, yeah.
It's 100% true.
Um, how do you, how do youbalance that sort of, uh.
You know that the, the, thedesire to, uh, put in a CTA
(22:11):
without feeling like you'rebeing too markety.
Doug Berger (22:15):
So it, you need to understand who your audience is
for each individual platform.
And when I say platform, I'm notjust referring to social media,
right?
So on, on YouTube, for example.
We are already programmed toaccept people saying like, and
subscribe.
But we would laugh at those samepeople, which we might kind of
(22:37):
laugh at them on YouTube, but,but it's expected, again, it's
expected on YouTube.
But if I said that on Facebook,for example, I would definitely
get laughed at.
So by the way,
Johnny Diggz (22:49):
if you're watching this, I would like you for it to
like and subscribe.
Doug Berger (22:55):
And if you're not watching this and listening to
it on a podcast, make sure to ithit five stars.
I love this show or whatever itis that you can say.
Yeah, give us a review.
That was very subtle.
So, uh, so yeah, it, it, it, howdo you avoid coming across as
smarmy?
And I think the answer is justbeing authentic, right?
(23:15):
So yes, people want you to tellthem what you want.
Out of it.
But if you are going to aplatform specifically to get
something out of it that peopledon't want, there you are
barking up the wrong tree.
Yeah.
Is that the right term?
I don't even know.
Johnny Diggz (23:31):
I think, I think so.
Yeah.
I've noticed that likespecifically I.
You know, Reddit, uh, is, isvery anti-marketing, although
they, now that they're public,they're dipping their toes into,
uh, into selling ads and stufflike that.
And it's very interesting towatch that the entire Reddit
community sort of react, bothreact negatively.
(23:52):
But also they, they don't reallyhave a choice but to embrace it
because, um, it, you know,Reddit, Reddit has evolved Yeah.
It, well as a brand and it
Doug Berger (24:00):
supports the platform that we get to enjoy
for free.
That's true.
So that's just how, it's, it'saugmented.
So,
Johnny Diggz (24:05):
so, um, to, to to, to sort of wind us down, you
know, what do you see?
What kind of trends do you seeemerging, uh, in, in your, in
your sort of CREs, the amazingCress business.
The amazing Creston, right?
Yeah.
Uh, so
Doug Berger (24:22):
if, if I had the ability to look into a crystal
ball, um, I, I think this isactually not that complicated
because we talked about thisrecently, um, and it is about
focusing on impending targetaudiences.
That's what we can do.
That's the trend that's comingforward.
And that trend is coming acrossjust like I I mentioned in the
(24:42):
form of authenticity, right?
So Gen Z is our next set of, ofconsumers.
Um, they are, some of them arealready adults.
Um, some of them are alreadybuying cars and houses.
Um, and so the, the, theemerging trend is simply.
(25:03):
For brands, especially startups,right, to embrace the idea of
authenticity.
Don't pretend you're somethingyou're not.
Right?
If you're a startup, act like astartup because people who want
to give their money to a startuprather than a chain or a
franchise, you're gonna be.
(25:23):
The beneficiary there as opposedto coming across as a Fortune
500 company.
That looks like you have deeppockets.
Johnny Diggz (25:30):
Now.
Real quick, just one last thing.
I thought we were winding down.
I thought we were too, but Ijust had the, you know, we've
been talking about contentmarketing, we've been talking
about that.
You just we're talking aboutthis, these trends, obviously
we, it's hard to ignore AI and,um, and so talk about, tell me
your, your vision of.
(25:52):
Of, of content marketing and howit relates to, uh, like these
new AI engines that arereplacing many of the search
engines.
Right.
So how, how, how do you, what'sthe new SEO.
Doug Berger (26:06):
Well, the new SEO is definitely, there are a
couple different terms at, atthe moment, none have really
risen to the top.
Um, A IO or LLMO I've, I'veheard so far, uh, you know,
throw, throw some letterstogether and, and that's what
we're dealing with.
I don't
Johnny Diggz (26:20):
like LLMO because it's not a TLA, it's not a three
letter, it's not a three letteracronym.
Yeah.
Doug Berger (26:25):
So, uh, so yeah, a IO uh, and, and still it comes
down to authenticity, right?
Write about the things thatmatter to you.
Write about the things that youbelieve matter for your
audiences, and then let AI takecare of the rest.
However, let me, let me back upa little bit there, because that
(26:46):
sounded like, oh, AI will takecare of it.
So, no, that's not the idea.
Um, I, I, I do believe that AIhas a place, it's a tool, right?
It's not a solution.
I think there's a big differencethere.
A lot of people are trying touse it as a solution.
Um, but.
And, and we've discussed thispreviously, that AI might get
(27:07):
you 80% of the way there.
It's not gonna get you a hundredpercent of the way there.
And frankly, I don't think itever will because I.
A AI will never quite comprehendthe, the genesis quo of, of
human reactions and responses.
Johnny Diggz (27:24):
Well, I'm talking about more, more in the, oh,
man, I totally misunderstood thequestion.
Well, no, well, more in the,the, the search side of it, not
the, not the AI as a tool.
Well, I mean, AI as a searchtool, I guess.
Right?
Doug Berger (27:36):
So, so it's important to.
With regard to contentmarketing, position yourself as
a thought leader.
Um, and, and, and part of thatis because over time the, the
articles that you publish, uh,and, and other media that you
publish.
(27:57):
If you allow it to be, it'll becrawled by these, uh, LLMs.
Right.
So Perplexity is gonna see itand chat.
Uh, GPT is gonna see it, and nowCopilot is gonna see it.
Claude and Claude is seeing it.
Gemini.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Google's product.
Um, and, and so, you know, it,it is going to replace search
(28:19):
engines, the traditional searchengine as we know it.
And so it's gonna be.
Just as important, like we hadSEO uh, 10 years ago where it,
it was important, it wascritically important.
It's still important, don't getme wrong, but, uh, it's, it's
more important to futureproofyourself and to futureproof
(28:39):
yourself would be to embracethese LLMs that are crawling
your content.
Johnny Diggz (28:45):
I think that's a good stopping point.
Uh, thank you for joining ushere at Brand of Brothers.
My name is Johnny Diggs.
Doug Berger (28:51):
And I'm Doug.
Without a last name,
Johnny Diggz (28:56):
we'll catch you guys next time.
Doug Berger (28:58):
Thank you for tuning in to Brand of Brothers.
Big thank you to our presentingsponsor, Remixed, the branding
agency, along with productionassistance from Johnny Diggz,
Simon Jacobsohn, and me, DougBerger.
We can't forget music by PRO.
Speaking of not forgetting,remember to do that like and
subscribe thing and find us atBrandShowLive.
com and follow us on the socialsat BrandShowLive.
Welcome to the latest in installment of Brand
of Brothers.
I'm Doug.
Johnny Diggz (00:02):
And I'm Johnny.
Today we're talking aboutstartups and the power of visual
content.
Doug Berger (00:06):
Alright, let's get to it.
Johnny Diggz (00:16):
So let's start with this.
Um, when people think ofbranding, they sometimes just
think of a logo, but, uh, youare saying that logo isn't
necessarily the brand.
Doug Berger (00:28):
The logo is definitely not the brand.
The brand is much greater thanthat.
So a logo is.
Something that's more along thelines of a screwdriver in a
toolbox, right?
So it's good for some things,but not for everything.
You don't use a, I mean, if, ifyou're a normal person, you
don't use a screwdriver tohammer in a nail, right?
(00:50):
So the big idea when it comes toa brand is it's not just the
visual, it's the verbal as well.
So you need to focus on bothyour messaging and your visual
identity and your visualidentity.
Again, it's not just the logo,it's your color palette, it's
your typography, it's yourpatterns, and so on.
Um, and, and, and, but one thingthat I've definitely noticed is
(01:13):
that a lot of of startupsspecifically struggle with
crafting a brand story That,that just.
It feels generic.
Right.
So from your experience, and,and I know that you've, you've
started up a lot of companies,how can a new company create an
authentic story that resonateswith its audiences?
Johnny Diggz (01:34):
Well, it's a really valid question.
It's really hard to do, and.
Uh, I can only tell you from myexperience that, uh, we, we
typically started with the logofirst.
I mean, that was actually, westarted with a name first, and I
think that's probably what a lotof companies do is that they,
(01:54):
they come up with a name or anidea for a name, and then they
start searching for domain namesthat are available.
Is that, it seems like.
That definitely happens a lot
Doug Berger (02:03):
these days more than, than, uh, certainly, uh,
in, in the early nineties forsure.
Sure.
And then,
Johnny Diggz (02:08):
yeah, and we had all those domain, um, uh, domain
name, uh, what do they call'em?
The guys who bought all thedomains and, oh, squatters,
right?
Squatters, yeah, that's thename.
So, uh, but so beyond just thedomain name and the name of the
company.
Then you have to come up withsome sort of visual identity.
(02:30):
And usually within my realm, wewere, I, I've been dealing with
tech startups.
So tech startups, the very firstthing you do is put up a
website, which is why you needthe domain name, and then you
need, uh, a logo.
But beyond that.
We didn't, we didn't, you know,we didn't have money to, to hire
(02:50):
an agency.
We didn't, you know, this ispre-funding and so once you get
funding, you can take it a stepfurther.
And that's exactly what we did.
We got, you know, we, we came upwith a, a name and a logo.
We built a website, we built aPowerPoint, and then we went out
and tried to raise money and wewere successful, uh, in that.
(03:12):
And then you take it to the nextstep, and that's when.
We brought in an an agency andactually.
Revisited our logo, looked,realized all the ways that our
logo wasn't working, why itwasn't working.
It doesn't work, you know, inreverse or it doesn't work in a
box or
Doug Berger (03:26):
Sure.
But you started up a bunch ofcompanies, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so you would learn from yourmistakes along the way.
Was there ever a point in timewhere, uh, authentic
storytelling was a thing foryou?
Or did that really become, uh,more prevalent when your, when,
when really your startupsbecame.
(03:47):
Huge, right?
Yeah.
Uh, pre, pre-acquisition andstarted working with agencies,
like where along the way wouldyou find that the storytelling,
uh, became interwoven into youroverarching, uh, startup brands?
Johnny Diggz (04:01):
You know, it, it sort of evolved naturally, um,
because we were building acommunity and in, in, in both,
uh, both the, the brands that Iwas involved with.
Um, my role was more in thedeveloper outreach and building
a, a developer community, andthat was sort of our brand story
(04:24):
with, with Tropo that was.
Uh, we were one and the same asour developer community because
it was, that was our, or we werea platform for developers.
Yeah.
For the Cisco
Doug Berger (04:35):
developers.
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
Well,
Johnny Diggz (04:36):
eventually we became a Cisco.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
Doug Berger (04:39):
Um, and, and, and to that end, what did you
discover were, were some of thebest platforms, your best ways
to reach your audiences?
Johnny Diggz (04:47):
Obviously web was, was one, but we, we, we did a
multi-pronged approach.
We did a lot of hackathon typeevents.
We did a lot of, uh, events in,in live events in, in all around
the world.
Um, but, you know, primarily weengaged with them via the web
and a little bit with, you know,blog posts.
(05:09):
Uh, we used, you know, somesocial media as well, but, um,
but I would say our.
Our strongest in that particularrealm was, was our, you know, in
personal, in-person events, but,
Doug Berger (05:23):
well, nothing beats in person.
Right?
Yeah.
When it, when it, when it comesto, to creating a brand that has
a, an authentic experience that,that in-person human touch,
nothing can really beat it.
Johnny Diggz (05:36):
One of the interesting things that happened
when, when, uh.
We launched Tropo, we had one,one brand identity.
And uh, when I came in, we werein, in, in the midst of trying
to take it to a different, in adifferent direction.
That sounds familiar.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
'cause that's when you and Iwere working together.
But, um, but one of the thingsthat we were trying to deal with
(06:00):
was the consistency of thebrand.
Um, we went from, uh, like a,like a cloudy type.
The thing to, we wanted to getmore enterprisey and, uh, and
uh, and so, um, how did Hu help?
Maintain the consistency.
Right.
Getting, like, you kind ofguided us in that.
Doug Berger (06:22):
I did, I did.
Uh, along with, with Simon andYeah.
Yeah.
And the rest of our staff hereat Remix.
Um, so the, the, the key toconsistency kind of takes me
back to what we were talkingabout just moments ago regarding
visual identity.
That it's not just the logo,it's the colors and it's the
type faces and it's the patternsand textures.
(06:44):
Along with the, the visual langlanguage, there was also the
verbal language.
Right.
So what we tried to do was makeit so anytime we were doing any
sort of marketing, and it couldhave been in person, right, with
your, your, your exhibitgraphics.
It could have been online, uh,with just the, your typical ux,
(07:07):
the type faces.
The color palettes, those wereall consistent.
And we tried to maintain adegree of consistency with the
way that the logo was presentedas well.
Making it so there were brandstandards that would go out, uh,
like for example, when you were,uh, when, when you were, uh,
sponsoring an event.
(07:27):
Uh, you'd have to provide them alogo.
Well, providing them a logodoesn't make sure that your logo
appears how you want it toappear.
Johnny Diggz (07:35):
I learned that the hard way many, many times that,
that you just by.
You, you can't trust anyone withyour logo because you can
guarantee that if it doesn't fitin somebody else's mind and, and
how in their design they willchange it.
Doug Berger (07:53):
I don't know what you're talking about As a
designer, I've never done that.
Ever.
Okay.
Maybe a few times.
Um, so you had just mentionedabout the in-person stuff and,
and it's so true, how, howeffective it is.
So building a brand isn't justabout visuals, right?
It's.
Also about building communities.
What are some effective ways forstartups to engage with their
(08:14):
audience beyond just posting onsocial media?
Johnny Diggz (08:19):
Well.
That you, it's so easy to fallinto that trap because social
media is easy to, to do.
Right?
So you can do for some people.
Yes.
Well, well, I'm saying thatthere's, there's very little
barrier to entry.
Anybody who has access to thesocial media account can post
something.
So it's, it's easy to think, oh,I did three posts this week.
(08:43):
You know, I did two blogs and,uh, and I, and I, you know, did
a couple tweets or, or Facebookposts, and that checks the box
for your community engagementfor the week.
Um, we would, on top of that,organize events.
We did organize meetups, we'dorganize, uh, drink up, uh,
(09:06):
really like doing a, amulti-pronged approach.
To, uh, we also, uh, organized,uh, contests, uh, developer
contests and all of these thingsto try to engage our audience
to, to, uh, to use our platform.
And, uh, you know, it's, uh,speaking of that, um, you know,
(09:30):
visual content, um, has been ahuge.
Driver in, in marketing, uh,lately.
And, uh, what, what visuals doyou think are, are more
effective in, uh, wow.
What a
Doug Berger (09:46):
question.
Johnny Diggz (09:47):
Yeah.
Uh, so, because plain, plaintext doesn't always, you know,
you can, you can get yourmessaging off over with plain
text, but what, what, what areyour, you know, what can you do
visually?
Doug Berger (10:00):
So there are a bunch of different things that
can be done.
Uh, from a visual communicationsperspective and, and just like,
you know, social media creating,uh, graphics that are enticing,
uh, it, and it, it, it could beas simple as, uh, and we've seen
these before and it's a littlebit hokey where it's a famous
quote or it's a quote fromsomeone famous, uh, uh, and,
(10:24):
and, and.
The bigger idea, the underlyingidea is that that quote, for
example, would reflect yourethos as a company and it would
be dual purpose.
That second purpose is aboutawareness generation, right?
Then we can take it one stepfurther.
Uh, and that's withinfographics.
So we'll take a key series ofdata.
(10:48):
And present that as pertinentinformation to a customer's
audiences.
And so the, the first way, ofcourse, it, it's lovely to have
a static graphic, but the secondand more effective way is to
convert those static graphicsinto video and animated
components, especially whenyou're putting that stuff on
(11:09):
social media, because we knowthat.
Things like, uh, reels andTikTok are far more effective
than even a carousel ad, and weknow that carousels are, are
basically second to videocontent.
Johnny Diggz (11:25):
Um, you know, we were talking a little bit about
the, uh, uh, how other people,uh, will change your logo and I
was just thinking about.
The, the idea of the brandguidelines, which you kind of
introduced me to the, the con,the idea that there's sort of
rules and restrictions that getYes.
(11:48):
We call
Doug Berger (11:48):
it a brand Bible sometimes.
Yes.
Brand Bible.
Johnny Diggz (11:51):
Um, uh, I kind of, I, I, I both appreciated it, but
I also found it restrictive.
Restrictive, yeah.
So tell, talk to me about wherethey're appropriate, why, why
you use them.
Doug Berger (12:04):
So brand guidelines or brand guide or house style
guide, what whatever, whateverterminology you use.
Like I said, brand Bible, um.
They, they are intentionallyrestrictive to make sure that a
brand is presented in what Irefer to as the three Cs, that
it's cohesive, coherent, andconsistent.
(12:26):
It also, uh, increaseslegibility, right?
So you don't want your logo, forexample, to be placed on a busy
background because then yourlogo gets gobbled up.
You don't want your.
Uh, typeface to be presented ina different color palette that
doesn't reflect the tone of yourbrand, right?
(12:49):
You don't want to introduce pinkand purple when your colors are
blue and gray.
They're obviously disparate, andso what this does is it helps to
make certain that your tone.
Is put forward in an effectiveway and in a positive light.
And the other key reason that wehave these guidelines is because
(13:11):
it's not always one personthat's working on your marketing
materials.
Oftentimes they're teams.
And even beyond that, you havemultiple different groups that
are working on it.
So you have your internalmarketing department, for
example, you have your WestCoast agency and your East Coast
agency as a possibility.
(13:31):
And then on top of that.
You're relying on vendorssometimes to put together
content, right?
You might be working with avendor who takes care of all of
your SEM and who takes care ofall of your social media
marketing, specifically the paidside, and so you provide them
your brand assets, uh, includingphotography.
(13:53):
And, uh, it, it, along with allof your logo elements, your,
your brand elements, and youwanna make sure that that's
consistent.
Whatever it is that they'recreating, you wanna make sure
that that is in line and in tunewith the other stuff that you
are creating.
And, and, and one thing thatI've noticed, and I I, if you'll
forgive me, I want to get backto the idea of startups.
(14:16):
Um, I find that startups.
Tend to struggle with where tofocus their marketing efforts.
And if a startup has limitedresources, like I know you
certainly have experienced thebeginnings and the ends of a, a
startup where you have aninfinite, infinite decimal
amount of, uh, of, of, ofresources all the way up to now
(14:38):
you're supported by a Fortune100 company.
Um, what.
Have been the best ways toprioritize online presence and
engagements.
Johnny Diggz (14:49):
So the, the, the key that I've always found, um,
and what, you know, when you'redealing with a limited budget
and you're, um, sort of, uh,gorilla marketing something
yourself, um.
Consist consistently, uh,touching your, your audience.
(15:09):
So updating your contentregularly is, is sort of a, a
given.
You have to do that, that's likethe bare baseline because if
somebody goes to your blog andor your.
Uh, Facebook page, your,whatever.
Wherever you have an onlinepresence and you don't have
(15:30):
recent relevant content, um,they're more likely to, to just
move on to somebody else thatmight look like they're actively
participating with theiraudience.
So, so, uh, I think the keythere is.
Uh, to, to make sure that, um,that you're regularly updating
(15:50):
your content and also, uh,keeping up with, with what's
going on in your space is, iscritical.
Um, there are always changes andno matter what vertical you're
in, uh, there's always newtechnology.
There's always new competition.
There's always news, newregulations, any, anything that
affects your particular sector.
(16:12):
Um, is something that you shouldactively participate in and you
don't necessarily need torespond to anything or have a
position on everything, but atleast be aware of it and make
sure that all of your onlinecontent is sort of reflected in,
uh, in how your, uh, uh,proceeding.
Doug Berger (16:32):
It almost sounds like you're suggesting maybe a
holistic content marketingstrategy.
Johnny Diggz (16:37):
Well, I mean, that, that would be the optimal
thing, so.
Um, when, you know, when you,when you aspire to have
holistic, here's the thing, moststartups don't have the
bandwidth to do that.
And, um, and so, uh, it, it, butit's, it, it definitely helps.
(17:01):
And when I, when I was able to,when I had a bigger budget.
And was able to address things,um, across the board in all of,
you know, all the aspects thatwe were, uh, sending out our
messages.
Um, it was a lot easier because,you know, again, that consistent
co consistency.
(17:22):
Uh, what, what do the three Cs a
Doug Berger (17:23):
consistent, coherent and cohesive.
Johnny Diggz (17:26):
I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to, to steal that
one.
So we got.
You know, I'm gonna go back tothe video side of things.
Um, and one thing I've noticed,we have, uh, Facebook reels,
we've got TikTok stories or, uh,TikTok just in general.
(17:47):
TikTok and, well, they havetheir own stories too now within
TikTok.
Oh, man.
Yeah, yeah.
See, we're both learning
Doug Berger (17:52):
new
Johnny Diggz (17:52):
things today and, uh, we had Instagram stories.
Um, and they've kind of changed,uh, this, this, uh, we call it
short form content.
Um, and, uh, a lot I'm seeingmore and more, uh, companies
kind of dive into this as a wayof getting their messaging out.
(18:15):
Um, but how do you, how do you,how do you manage video content,
um, and while maintaining yourthree Cs.
And also keeping within abudget.
Doug Berger (18:28):
It.
You know, it's funny, I I, I, Ididn't intentionally bring up a
content marketing strategy, um,but it, it's pretty clear that
the answer to your question isto have a proactive content
marketing strategy.
So I.
Uh, like you said, startupsspecifically tend not to have
the bandwidth and, and even, uh,even smaller SMBs, right?
(18:51):
Like there are plenty of five to10 person companies that
generally believe they don'thave the bandwidth necessary to
implement a proactive contentmarketing strategy.
But if you take the time.
To develop the materials and todevelop a, a mode, uh, for
(19:12):
getting the content out there.
Then you have the ability to bea, a little bit more effective.
Um,
Johnny Diggz (19:20):
can, can, real quick on the, before you go onto
the next, I wanted to ask youabout content marketing because.
I know what I think it is, but Iwant to hear what you think it
is.
Oh gosh.
Doug Berger (19:35):
See, this is setting me up for potentially
being completely wrong.
Uh, so, so generally speaking.
It's marketing through the useof content, right?
So I'm just gonna completelydistill it down to, to its bare,
to its bare bones and really thewords, right?
Should we open the webdictionary
Johnny Diggz (19:52):
defines content marketing as
Doug Berger (19:55):
so, so when it comes to content marketing, uh,
generally it's done digitally.
Right.
So like you had mentionedpreviously, you have your blog
posts, uh, which we're movingaway from the terminology of it
being called the blog postarticles toward articles.
Articles or just post.
Yeah.
Um, so it, it depends, right?
Because sometimes these articleseven live in, in knowledge
(20:16):
bases, right?
And KBS can still be used aspart of a content strategy.
So the big idea here is to.
Not only create relevance, uh,from the perspective of, of
generating content that ismeaningful today, it's also
about distributing that content.
(20:38):
And then in that distributionyou are, you are gaining
eyeballs, right?
You are, you're telling peoplethat you just posted an article,
you're telling people that youjust posted a video.
You are telling people that.
You're doing something, and thebig idea is creating awareness.
(21:00):
Now, the next step is a call toaction.
So it's not just posting onFacebook or posting on Instagram
or TikTok or what have you.
It's getting the message out toall of your various audiences on
a, a variety of platforms.
And ultimately that just meansmaking sure that your content is
(21:21):
adequately marketed.
Johnny Diggz (21:23):
You mentioned, uh, call to action or, uh, CTA.
And, uh, and you know, one ofthe things that, that you and I,
I always joke with you about isthat I'm, you know, when things
get too markety Yes.
Um, it, it kind of turns me off.
And part of that comes from mybackground.
As a developer evangelist thatlearning very quickly that most
(21:46):
developers don't want to bemarketed to.
And, and, well, I think it'strue of most people in general,
yeah.
Don't want to feel like they'vegot, they're getting marketed
to, despite the fact that we arebombarded by marketing from
every direction.
Um, yeah.
It's 100% true.
Um, how do you, how do youbalance that sort of, uh.
You know that the, the, thedesire to, uh, put in a CTA
(22:11):
without feeling like you'rebeing too markety.
Doug Berger (22:15):
So it, you need to understand who your audience is
for each individual platform.
And when I say platform, I'm notjust referring to social media,
right?
So on, on YouTube, for example.
We are already programmed toaccept people saying like, and
subscribe.
But we would laugh at those samepeople, which we might kind of
(22:37):
laugh at them on YouTube, but,but it's expected, again, it's
expected on YouTube.
But if I said that on Facebook,for example, I would definitely
get laughed at.
So by the way,
Johnny Diggz (22:49):
if you're watching this, I would like you for it to
like and subscribe.
Doug Berger (22:55):
And if you're not watching this and listening to
it on a podcast, make sure to ithit five stars.
I love this show or whatever itis that you can say.
Yeah, give us a review.
That was very subtle.
So, uh, so yeah, it, it, it, howdo you avoid coming across as
smarmy?
And I think the answer is justbeing authentic, right?
(23:15):
So yes, people want you to tellthem what you want.
Out of it.
But if you are going to aplatform specifically to get
something out of it that peopledon't want, there you are
barking up the wrong tree.
Yeah.
Is that the right term?
I don't even know.
Johnny Diggz (23:31):
I think, I think so.
Yeah.
I've noticed that likespecifically I.
You know, Reddit, uh, is, isvery anti-marketing, although
they, now that they're public,they're dipping their toes into,
uh, into selling ads and stufflike that.
And it's very interesting towatch that the entire Reddit
community sort of react, bothreact negatively.
(23:52):
But also they, they don't reallyhave a choice but to embrace it
because, um, it, you know,Reddit, Reddit has evolved Yeah.
It, well as a brand and it
Doug Berger (24:00):
supports the platform that we get to enjoy
for free.
That's true.
So that's just how, it's, it'saugmented.
So,
Johnny Diggz (24:05):
so, um, to, to to, to sort of wind us down, you
know, what do you see?
What kind of trends do you seeemerging, uh, in, in your, in
your sort of CREs, the amazingCress business.
The amazing Creston, right?
Yeah.
Uh, so
Doug Berger (24:22):
if, if I had the ability to look into a crystal
ball, um, I, I think this isactually not that complicated
because we talked about thisrecently, um, and it is about
focusing on impending targetaudiences.
That's what we can do.
That's the trend that's comingforward.
And that trend is coming acrossjust like I I mentioned in the
(24:42):
form of authenticity, right?
So Gen Z is our next set of, ofconsumers.
Um, they are, some of them arealready adults.
Um, some of them are alreadybuying cars and houses.
Um, and so the, the, theemerging trend is simply.
(25:03):
For brands, especially startups,right, to embrace the idea of
authenticity.
Don't pretend you're somethingyou're not.
Right?
If you're a startup, act like astartup because people who want
to give their money to a startuprather than a chain or a
franchise, you're gonna be.
(25:23):
The beneficiary there as opposedto coming across as a Fortune
500 company.
That looks like you have deeppockets.
Johnny Diggz (25:30):
Now.
Real quick, just one last thing.
I thought we were winding down.
I thought we were too, but Ijust had the, you know, we've
been talking about contentmarketing, we've been talking
about that.
You just we're talking aboutthis, these trends, obviously
we, it's hard to ignore AI and,um, and so talk about, tell me
your, your vision of.
(25:52):
Of, of content marketing and howit relates to, uh, like these
new AI engines that arereplacing many of the search
engines.
Right.
So how, how, how do you, what'sthe new SEO.
Doug Berger (26:06):
Well, the new SEO is definitely, there are a
couple different terms at, atthe moment, none have really
risen to the top.
Um, A IO or LLMO I've, I'veheard so far, uh, you know,
throw, throw some letterstogether and, and that's what
we're dealing with.
I don't
Johnny Diggz (26:20):
like LLMO because it's not a TLA, it's not a three
letter, it's not a three letteracronym.
Yeah.
Doug Berger (26:25):
So, uh, so yeah, a IO uh, and, and still it comes
down to authenticity, right?
Write about the things thatmatter to you.
Write about the things that youbelieve matter for your
audiences, and then let AI takecare of the rest.
However, let me, let me back upa little bit there, because that
(26:46):
sounded like, oh, AI will takecare of it.
So, no, that's not the idea.
Um, I, I, I do believe that AIhas a place, it's a tool, right?
It's not a solution.
I think there's a big differencethere.
A lot of people are trying touse it as a solution.
Um, but.
And, and we've discussed thispreviously, that AI might get
(27:07):
you 80% of the way there.
It's not gonna get you a hundredpercent of the way there.
And frankly, I don't think itever will because I.
A AI will never quite comprehendthe, the genesis quo of, of
human reactions and responses.
Johnny Diggz (27:24):
Well, I'm talking about more, more in the, oh,
man, I totally misunderstood thequestion.
Well, no, well, more in the,the, the search side of it, not
the, not the AI as a tool.
Well, I mean, AI as a searchtool, I guess.
Right?
Doug Berger (27:36):
So, so it's important to.
With regard to contentmarketing, position yourself as
a thought leader.
Um, and, and, and part of thatis because over time the, the
articles that you publish, uh,and, and other media that you
publish.
(27:57):
If you allow it to be, it'll becrawled by these, uh, LLMs.
Right.
So Perplexity is gonna see itand chat.
Uh, GPT is gonna see it, and nowCopilot is gonna see it.
Claude and Claude is seeing it.
Gemini.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Google's product.
Um, and, and so, you know, it,it is going to replace search
(28:19):
engines, the traditional searchengine as we know it.
And so it's gonna be.
Just as important, like we hadSEO uh, 10 years ago where it,
it was important, it wascritically important.
It's still important, don't getme wrong, but, uh, it's, it's
more important to futureproofyourself and to futureproof
(28:39):
yourself would be to embracethese LLMs that are crawling
your content.
Johnny Diggz (28:45):
I think that's a good stopping point.
Uh, thank you for joining ushere at Brand of Brothers.
My name is Johnny Diggs.
Doug Berger (28:51):
And I'm Doug.
Without a last name,
Johnny Diggz (28:56):
we'll catch you guys next time.
Doug Berger (28:58):
Thank you for tuning in to Brand of Brothers.
Big thank you to our presentingsponsor, Remixed, the branding
agency, along with productionassistance from Johnny Diggz,
Simon Jacobsohn, and me, DougBerger.
We can't forget music by PRO.
Speaking of not forgetting,remember to do that like and
subscribe thing and find us atBrandShowLive.
com and follow us on the socialsat BrandShowLive.
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