November 25, 2025 • 23 mins
Welcome back to Brand of Brothers with Doug Berger and Johnny Diggz, where real talk about branding meets practical insights for business owners. In this episode, we dig into one of the biggest misunderstandings in marketing today: the idea that a brand is just a logo. Spoiler alert, it is not even close.
🔥 In this episode:
• What a brand actually is and why it goes far beyond visuals
• The difference between visual identity and a full brand identity system
• How brand stories, mission, vision, and values create the foundation for all marketing
• Why naming matters and how names communicate purpose
• How giants like Nike, Chipotle, and Jaguar evolved their brands and what worked or failed
• The risks of personality driven brands when public figures become polarizing
• Why companies should justify every rebrand with real data and strategy
• What a Messaging BrandScape is and how it connects audiences to a brand’s purpose
• The importance of discovery, research, and audience insights before any design work begins
• Why small businesses that “just need a logo or a website” often need a deeper strategy first
💡 Whether you run a startup, a growing business, or an established brand, this episode shows why meaningful branding starts with clarity, intention, and strategy. You will learn how to think about your brand as a living system, not a single graphic, and why real consistency comes from knowing who you are, what you stand for, and who you serve.
🎧 Listen now to learn how to:
• Build a brand foundation that actually supports your marketing
• Avoid common pitfalls when naming, designing, or repositioning a brand
• Recognize when a rebrand is needed and when it is not
• Align visuals, messaging, and strategy so your brand works everywhere
Presented by Remixed, the full service branding agency helping companies craft, launch, and grow powerful brands.
🎶 Music by PRO
📍 Visit us at BrandShowLive.com
📱 Follow along at @BrandShowLive on all socials
👍 Like, subscribe, and share to support the show and keep the conversations going
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Doug Berger (00:00):
Welcome to the latest in installment of Brand
of Brothers.
I'm Doug.
Johnny Diggz (00:02):
And I'm Johnny.
Today we're talking about whyyour logo is not your brand.
Doug Berger (00:06):
All right, let's get to it.
Johnny Diggz (00:15):
So, Doug, today we're gonna talk about branding.
What is a brand?
What, what makes a brand a brandversus, uh, I don't know, what
do you say?
What is a brand?
Doug Berger (00:27):
What, what is a brand?
A brand is a holistic approachto an identity.
A lot of people mistake identityas being visual in nature.
Uh, a akin to the, the phrasevisual identity, which is
generally synonymous with alogo, but it, it goes beyond
(00:47):
that, right?
Because it has type and color,et cetera.
What is a brand?
A brand is a, a multitude ofthings that must begin with
identifying who you are, whatyou do.
Why you do it and the list goeson, we, we have a brand story
which usually answers the whoyou are, why do you do it, and
(01:11):
for whom do you do it right?
Um, then we go out.
Broader from that, what's yourvision?
What's your ultimate goal in therealm of your particular brand?
Then how do you get there?
That's your v that's yourmission statement, right?
Your ultimate goal is yourvision, your how do you get
there?
(01:31):
Is the, the mission, and youlook like you have something
that you want to say.
Johnny Diggz (01:35):
Well, I'm just, you know, you, you, you, you've,
you're talking about vision andmission, but, um, but I think
from, you know, a businessowner's perspective, I have.
I have a company, I makewidgets.
And the name of my You do have acompany that makes widgets?
I do.
I do.
Yeah.
Um, and, but, and the name of mycompany is Johnny Diggs is
(01:56):
Widget Express.
Doug Berger (01:58):
Oh, you changed the name of your company?
Yes,
Johnny Diggz (02:01):
I rebranded.
Um, now you just listed, uh,mission and vision and stuff
like that and a brand story youmentioned.
Yeah.
Um, but how do you get from.
Johnny Diggs Witches.
Wi Witches.
I think Johnny Diggs witches isbetter than widgets.
I think it'll sell.
Yeah.
(02:22):
Um, so how do we, how do you getfrom that, that name even.
Uh, is the name your brand,like, is that
Doug Berger (02:29):
It's part of it, right?
Yeah.
So it, it also depends on, onwhat story your name tells,
right?
In your instance with, withJohnny Diggs as witches, you've
told the story, right?
Except people then have to askthe question, which witch are we
talking about?
And, and how do I get my handson these witches?
(02:51):
Um, and, and also.
Are they allowed to?
Um, so sorry, I, this, thistotally veered way off course.
So, uh, how do you come up witha name?
There are are numerous ways,right?
From a, a, a, a heartfelt.
Place where it's, uh, it'sembedding your mission into your
(03:15):
name or it's from a utilitarianplace, like naming it after
yourself and specifically whatit is that you're selling.
But there field,
Johnny Diggz (03:25):
uh, two guys in a truck, right?
So
Doug Berger (03:28):
that's a brand, but it, it's a, it's a brand name.
Okay.
Um, it's not a brand except theygenerally tell you what.
They do in the name.
Yeah.
Right.
It's a utilitarian name.
Okay.
For sure.
Because it's telling you whatyou're getting by hiring them.
Right.
Um, and, and it certainly beginsto tell the story of what you're
(03:48):
getting.
Right.
Two guys in a truck sounds likea moving company.
And that's what I believe it is.
Um, but then there are instanceswhere it's called Chipotle,
right?
Right.
And Chipotle, the only reasonwhy Americans.
Get an idea of what that is, isbecause of the marketing that's
(04:08):
happened with that brand.
But outside of that, especiallywhen they came around the, the
flavoring of Chipotle pepper wasnot.
Within the American lexicon,right?
This is a name that went throughnumerous permutations.
It undoubtedly had numerousfocus groups, right?
It was spearheaded by a largecorporation, and so that's how
(04:32):
we ended up with Chipotle.
Johnny Diggz (04:34):
Does, um.
I guess, you know, the samecould be said for Nike, right?
So Nike, that's, I don't evenknow if that was a word or
before, but,
Doug Berger (04:43):
well, it's certainly a, a God, right?
Is it?
Oh, okay.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, and, and so the, uh, Idon't know what it's a God of,
but I remember something about awinged foot or something to that
effect.
Sounds plausible.
And, and I believe that's wherethe swoosh idea came from.
Um, which that's an even moreamazing story, uh, about how the
(05:05):
swoosh came to be and, andultimately how the designer who
created it was ultimatelycompensated.
Because initially it was just a,a, a, a small payment that she
received in exchange for doingit.
Johnny Diggz (05:19):
So, but what you're saying is.
Nike's brand isn't the name andit's not the swoosh.
Doug Berger (05:27):
So it's all of it, right?
It is the story of where it istoday and where it came from,
and it, so that makes the brandstory, the, yeah, it, there are
all of these components, right?
The logo is part of the brand.
It's in, it's part of thattoolbox, right?
And so the tagline that's on theoutside of the toolbox might be
(05:50):
a sticker that says, just do it.
Right.
Um, and then inside that, thattoolbox, you also have an
instruction manual.
That instruction manual is.
Ostensibly your, your messagingbrands scape, as we call it,
right?
Your messaging brands scape.
What's that?
That's your vision, yourmission, your position, your
tone, your core values, yourbrand story, the who you are,
(06:12):
the what you do, the why you doit, and for whom you do it.
All of those particular details.
And speaking of who you do it,who for whom you do it, you, um,
you also have your targetaudiences, and then we have all
of our messaging.
We have our.
Our broad messaging, and we haveour vertical messaging.
And our vertical messaging is tospeak to the services and
(06:34):
solutions we provide, and on atargeted level to each of those,
uh, those audience segments.
Johnny Diggz (06:41):
So you can see.
Why it would be important tosort of identify those ahead of
time.
Because if you're gonna spendmoney marketing, you gotta kind
of know, you know, I think,yeah,
Doug Berger (06:52):
it's the why, why are you marketing, why are you
spending that money?
Right.
Johnny Diggz (06:55):
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, like the idea of puttinga billboard up by the side of
the road.
Um, might get attention, butwhat kind of attention are you
trying to get?
You know, are you, are youlooking for people who are
driving by?
Doug Berger (07:10):
It sounds like you're talking about another
episode where we maybe get intomarketing funnels, but, but it
in, in that instance, right?
Because it a, a billboard is.
I generally refer to them as avanity project because it's part
of an awareness campaign, right?
It, it, it can be peripherally,part of a conversion campaign,
(07:33):
but who is gonna be driving by a45 miles per hour taking a
picture of a QR code?
Johnny Diggz (07:38):
But yeah, that's true.
Um, I, every time I see a QRcode on one of those, i, I, I
wonder, but the um.
But I'm talking more in the, inthe terms of a brand.
I mean, when I, when I drivearound anybody in this day and
age, you see tons of brands andone of the places you see in
them is on a billboard.
You see?
Sure.
You know John Morgan, one of thehuge brand, right?
(07:58):
Um, absolutely probably thelargest lawyer brand in the
world.
He is a
Doug Berger (08:02):
large lawyer.
Johnny Diggz (08:03):
He's a large lawyer.
Um, but, uh, and he has, and,and so, you know, there's a,
there's a logo for Morgan andMorgan, but almost in my mind.
He is the brand for Morgan andMorgan.
He can, can the person be thebrand?
Doug Berger (08:19):
A, a a A person can definitely be a big part of the
brand.
Can they be the brand?
It really depends on, on howit's presented.
Um, for the most part, he isdefinitely the brand.
Uh, which I find kind of ironicconsidering the fact that he
can't even practice law.
But it doesn't change the factthat, you know, there's the.
And Morgan side of that, whichis his wife, who, who is also an
(08:43):
attorney, and then his children.
He has a, a, a few children thatwork at the firm if I, I assume
they're partners, um, who arealso by the last name.
Morgan.
Morgan.
So it's, uh, Morgan and Morgan.
And Morgan and Morgan.
Um, and, uh, but from a, from a.
A personal brand that transcendsinto the actual professional
(09:04):
brand, of course.
That that can definitely be athing.
Johnny Diggz (09:07):
While we're touching on there, um, you know,
there's, there's uh, I guesssome potential pitfalls about
tying a personality or a personto the brand if that person
becomes.
Toxic in any way.
It can have adverse effects onthe brand.
For example, what's happeningright now with Tesla and Elon
Musk
Doug Berger (09:27):
or, or what happened with, uh, Papa John's?
Right.
So you, you have people who havemade polarizing remarks and as a
result there are individuals whobasically use their personal
philosophies to drive how they,how they consume.
Right.
And so when you're talking aboutTesla.
(09:50):
There is a whole segment ofsociety that is saying, no, I'm
not going to support this brand,despite the fact that it
generally is a net positive forsociety, but because of the
perceived toxicity that he putsout there.
Nobody wants to put money in hispockets that make it possible
(10:12):
for him to evangelize his idea,his ideologies.
It's,
Johnny Diggz (10:16):
it's gotten to the, the further to the point
with his ex, uh, product, um,which oh man used to be Twitter.
He's actually actively suingother brands who are Oh, that's
right.
Who aren't advertising becausethey don't want their brand
associated with the stuff that'sbeing.
Published on his platform?
Doug Berger (10:37):
Well, I mean, can you, could you imagine being
Coca-Cola and having grok saythat, you know, something that
is Nazi related, uh, that is, isa alongside Coke?
Yeah.
Why would they take that risk?
No, not, yeah, it, it's aterrible idea for a brand to
engage in something that couldbe potentially toxic, especially
(11:00):
on a global scale, right?
We're talking about somethingthat is megalithic, and so
megalithic brands don't evenwant to touch it.
And then when you're looking atsmaller brands, it, it.
When you're talking about smallbusinesses specifically, it
becomes cost prohibitive andthen begs the question, why
would I spend a few thousanddollars a month that might be
(11:22):
close to 10% of my my net?
Why would I risk that alongsidea toxic brand?
Johnny Diggz (11:30):
The, um, you, you mentioned earlier, uh, you threw
out the messaging brands scape,uh, term.
Yeah.
Um, can talk about, uh, what.
You know, you mentioned the, thethings that are in a messaging
BrainScape.
Walk me through the steps ofwhat you do with a client to
help develop that.
I imagine that's one of thefirst things that you do.
Doug Berger (11:52):
Uh, yeah, it is actually.
Um, so we conduct.
It and what I like to call anabridged brand audit because a
comprehensive brand audit meansdi doing deep dive into
research, right?
Competitive research and, anddeep dive into what your
employees say about you, what issaid about you on social media
and so on.
Um, so I'm not gonna dig into tothat aspect of the brand audit.
(12:17):
So on the abridge side, what wewanna do is we wanna understand
who you believe your audiencesare.
So we can figure out whetherthat's even in parity with what
data tells us.
We will also want to make surethat, uh, we understand what
qualities you're trying toconvey.
(12:38):
Um, it just a series ofadjectives, right?
Are you professional?
Are you amiable, are youapproachable?
Um, it.
What, what values are importantto you, right?
Trust, transparency, integrity.
Exactly right.
Um, and, and the list goes on.
Uh, so then there are othercomponents that we wanna
(12:58):
understand.
Uh, how often do you payattention to metrics, right?
How often do you build yourmarketing strategy around what
your competition is doing?
How often, uh, do you receivefeedback?
What does your feedback looplook like?
Right?
So we go through this, this.
Process of discovery.
(13:18):
Then we take that informationalong with internal research
that we do.
And that research might be, uh,looking at what, uh, what
articles were and data we'refinding on Statista to, uh,
conducting our own, uh, focusgroups, formal focus groups
based on, uh, information thatwe've been able to derive,
(13:39):
right?
So we want to know who thetarget audiences are.
We want to know who the targetaudiences are based on
geography, and then expand fromthere.
That, that gives us a generalidea of where we're starting.
What is it that the customer,the client is wanting to
accomplish and who is theircustomer?
Right?
And how do you connect the two?
(14:01):
And that's really the wholepoint of this, um, messaging
BrainScape, is that it createsthat bridge between the customer
and the client.
Johnny Diggz (14:12):
And from that, then you, um.
You, you developed the, thevisual components then.
Doug Berger (14:22):
So you, you fast forwarded, uh, pretty quickly.
So, uh, once we have puttogether the messaging
BrainScape, then we, we don'tmove on to the visuals just yet,
uh, because we need to know whatthe marketing strategy is.
We need to understand what it isthat we're attempting to
accomplish because we need toknow where the audiences are and
(14:44):
how to reach them.
Um.
Yes, a visual identity is goingto be important, but if that
visual identity is only onsocial media, then that's gonna
have a different aesthetic thanif it's going to be a far
reaching brand identity that'sgonna be, uh, something that
might not just be in yourpocket.
Johnny Diggz (15:01):
What do you say to someone that comes to remixed
and say, I, you know, I justneed a website.
Or I just, you know, or Ialready have a logo and I just
need help with my social media.
Like what do you, how do yourespond, given everything you've
told me about brands?
How do you respond to that?
Doug Berger (15:17):
Well, we begin by assembling all of the materials
that they already have, right?
So it is, again, back to thisbrand, this informal brand
audit.
So we need to understand whatassets they have and what assets
are missing.
So if they already havemessaging, there's no need.
To rebuild from the ground up.
(15:38):
So, you know, there are plentyof established companies that
come to us and require ourassistance.
Um, are we going to make themstart from, from, uh, from zero?
No, absolutely not.
Um, but if we find along the waythat there are, are
opportunities, right?
So there are gonna be strengths,there are gonna be weaknesses,
(15:58):
there are gonna beopportunities, and there are
going to be threats.
Um, these are are continuous.
Pieces that are evaluated andwhen.
Their messaging seems weak, thenwe would present the
opportunities for improvement.
And the same is true for theirvisual language.
And the whole point though,there needs to be a reason, a
(16:20):
justification behind changing alogo, for example.
Why are we changing it?
Are we repositioning the brand?
Has our message changed?
Have our audiences changed?
What exactly has.
Has catalyzed this to occur.
Johnny Diggz (16:33):
Uh, you know, I, I just recently was watching, uh,
Jaguar came out with a bigrebrand, uh, recently, and there
was a lot of controversy overwhy they did what they did.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it's, and I guessedcorrectly for the record.
Yeah.
Um, we'll talk about what theydid, so.
(16:54):
Basically what they, they did.
It was, it was Jaguar's a is ais a Epic brand, right?
Yes.
It, it
Doug Berger (17:01):
was a Facily Aly Facily.
It, it was a, a fascinating casestudy on exactly what not to do
when it comes to a, a brandingcampaign.
Um.
It.
It was a tremendous success inthat it got a lot of people
(17:23):
talking, but it was an even moreepic failure in that we found
that the data simply did notback up the decision, and that's
what makes these kind ofundertakings questionable.
In this instance, there was noquestion in my mind that this
(17:45):
was them.
Unveiling their electric andhybrid vehicles, right?
They know that they have aclassic vehicle with a very
specific audience, and that thataudience is going to age out for
them and that the up and coming.
Audiences for them, their targetaudiences, their, their
(18:06):
consumers, for them,
Johnny Diggz (18:08):
their brands came, said to them, well,
Doug Berger (18:11):
I mean basically they had these old English
vehicles and people liked themfor being a classic car, right?
Right.
But people are gradually movingaway from fossil fuels toward
renewables, and as a result,Jaguar felt it imperative to
pivot.
The problem is sometimes whenyou pivot.
(18:33):
It's too fast and it's too hard.
And if you pivot too, tooquickly, you're gonna drop the
couch.
Johnny Diggz (18:40):
The, uh, yeah, there is definitely some couch
dropping, I believe.
Um, because there, the backlashover that, that, uh, Jaguar
campaign, although I, I agreewith you, the, the.
From all, all the look of allthe new vehicles, they're moving
away from that classic look.
They're moving, they've movedaway from the classic logo.
(19:01):
Um, so you know, the, all thenew colors are sort of bright
and, and, uh, uh, interesting,interesting maneuver.
So as we wrap up here talkingabout, um, the difference
between brands and.
Logos.
Um, but obviously they'reinterconnected.
What, what would you say tosomeone who is looking to maybe
(19:25):
give their brand a a, a newlook, a new refresh?
Like how would you, how wouldyou suggest they go about it?
Doug Berger (19:33):
The first thing that I would recommend is that
they call me.
No.
Um, the, the first thing that Iwould recommend is that they
come up with.
Qualitative and quantitativereasons for the decision, right,
that it shouldn't just be forthe sake of making a change.
But
Johnny Diggz (19:53):
it seems like sometimes that, that brands just
do that and they, you see thatlike, you know, if you look at
the history of like, all of, allof the logos for, uh, VW over
the years, even Coca-Cola.
Yeah.
I
Doug Berger (20:06):
mean, it, they, even these, the like subtle
FedEx, nuance, FedEx changed GYeah.
They, they've all, it, they'veall evolved over time.
Part of it is to keep the brandrelevant.
Right.
Yeah.
Um, the other parts are becausethere is a, a real purpose,
right?
When you feel like somethingneeds to change.
(20:27):
Chances are good, somethingneeds to change and you just
haven't figured out why.
Right?
And so when you engage with athird party, um, that, that can
become more and more pronouncedand more and more obvious.
And when you say third party,you mean like an agency?
Like an agency?
Yeah.
Or, or a brand consultant or amarketing consultant.
(20:47):
And you ever
Johnny Diggz (20:48):
come across when, you know, a new, uh, marketing
executive, a new CMO comes inand they just wanna make it
their own right.
Doug Berger (20:55):
Yeah, that definitely happens and I've
definitely experienced it whereit, it made no na no sense to
anybody, um, except forthemselves.
And, and, and generally hubrisand ego shouldn't be the driving
factor behind.
Right.
But many times it seems a brandposition.
Yeah, for sure.
I've definitely, definitelywitnessed that.
Um, but there, there should be ajustification and, and.
(21:17):
That justification often comesabout from either reassessing or
reaffirming your messagingbrands scape and that messaging
brands scape again, is, is yourvision still aligned with what
the long-term ideal is for thebrand?
It, and then is your mission,your way of getting there, is
that actually in lock step withhow you need to be and how you
(21:42):
need to perform in order to getto that ideal place?
Then you have all the otherpieces that fall underneath
that, right?
So answering your brand story,the who, the why, the what, the,
when, all of that good stuff.
Um, the how, uh, and, and anyother questions you'd like to
ask.
Um, but so yeah, it, I, I feellike when it comes to making a,
(22:07):
a brand adjustment or brandrepositioning, that it's just
important to be introspectiveand, and figure out why are you
doing this?
And then.
How should you do that?
Right?
What, what makes the most amountof sense?
Johnny Diggz (22:20):
Stop.
Stop.
Uh,
Doug Berger (22:22):
I'm, I stopped
Johnny Diggz (22:25):
now.
I was saying like, you know, I,we, we, it seems like we see a
lot of these, uh, brands.
I, I'm, for some reason I'mthinking of Airbnb, but, um,
other ones that, um, seem tocome out with a new logo that.
Um, wasn't necessarily, isn'tnecessarily that significant
change.
It doesn't seem like, like that.
(22:46):
It's just like, oh, it's a newfont, or it's, you know, they
have,
Doug Berger (22:50):
but it, the thing is that there is purpose behind
it.
We just might not see it.
We just might.
Turn our nose up at it becauseit, it, it feels inel, right?
We've seen this happen a lot,especially with luxury brands.
Um, we call it rebranding.
Um, where, where they've gonefrom having these beautiful.
(23:13):
Uh, serif type faces or thesebeautiful script faces that were
originally hand done and thenit's simply been replaced with
Helvetica.
And Helvetica is an amazingtypeface, but is it the right
typeface?
Not for everyone.
Johnny Diggz (23:31):
That's a good, good place to end this because
we all know that Helvetica isnot for everyone.
Doug Berger (23:37):
Thank you for tuning in to Brand of Brothers.
Big thank you to our presentingsponsor, Remixed, the branding
agency, along with productionassistance from Johnny Diggz,
Simon Jacobsohn, and me, DougBerger.
We can't forget music by PRO.
Speaking of not forgetting,remember to do that like and
subscribe thing and find us atBrandShowLive.
com and follow us on the socialsat BrandShowLive.
Welcome to the latest in installment of Brand
of Brothers.
I'm Doug.
Johnny Diggz (00:02):
And I'm Johnny.
Today we're talking about whyyour logo is not your brand.
Doug Berger (00:06):
All right, let's get to it.
Johnny Diggz (00:15):
So, Doug, today we're gonna talk about branding.
What is a brand?
What, what makes a brand a brandversus, uh, I don't know, what
do you say?
What is a brand?
Doug Berger (00:27):
What, what is a brand?
A brand is a holistic approachto an identity.
A lot of people mistake identityas being visual in nature.
Uh, a akin to the, the phrasevisual identity, which is
generally synonymous with alogo, but it, it goes beyond
(00:47):
that, right?
Because it has type and color,et cetera.
What is a brand?
A brand is a, a multitude ofthings that must begin with
identifying who you are, whatyou do.
Why you do it and the list goeson, we, we have a brand story
which usually answers the whoyou are, why do you do it, and
(01:11):
for whom do you do it right?
Um, then we go out.
Broader from that, what's yourvision?
What's your ultimate goal in therealm of your particular brand?
Then how do you get there?
That's your v that's yourmission statement, right?
Your ultimate goal is yourvision, your how do you get
there?
(01:31):
Is the, the mission, and youlook like you have something
that you want to say.
Johnny Diggz (01:35):
Well, I'm just, you know, you, you, you, you've,
you're talking about vision andmission, but, um, but I think
from, you know, a businessowner's perspective, I have.
I have a company, I makewidgets.
And the name of my You do have acompany that makes widgets?
I do.
I do.
Yeah.
Um, and, but, and the name of mycompany is Johnny Diggs is
(01:56):
Widget Express.
Doug Berger (01:58):
Oh, you changed the name of your company?
Yes,
Johnny Diggz (02:01):
I rebranded.
Um, now you just listed, uh,mission and vision and stuff
like that and a brand story youmentioned.
Yeah.
Um, but how do you get from.
Johnny Diggs Witches.
Wi Witches.
I think Johnny Diggs witches isbetter than widgets.
I think it'll sell.
Yeah.
(02:22):
Um, so how do we, how do you getfrom that, that name even.
Uh, is the name your brand,like, is that
Doug Berger (02:29):
It's part of it, right?
Yeah.
So it, it also depends on, onwhat story your name tells,
right?
In your instance with, withJohnny Diggs as witches, you've
told the story, right?
Except people then have to askthe question, which witch are we
talking about?
And, and how do I get my handson these witches?
(02:51):
Um, and, and also.
Are they allowed to?
Um, so sorry, I, this, thistotally veered way off course.
So, uh, how do you come up witha name?
There are are numerous ways,right?
From a, a, a, a heartfelt.
Place where it's, uh, it'sembedding your mission into your
(03:15):
name or it's from a utilitarianplace, like naming it after
yourself and specifically whatit is that you're selling.
But there field,
Johnny Diggz (03:25):
uh, two guys in a truck, right?
So
Doug Berger (03:28):
that's a brand, but it, it's a, it's a brand name.
Okay.
Um, it's not a brand except theygenerally tell you what.
They do in the name.
Yeah.
Right.
It's a utilitarian name.
Okay.
For sure.
Because it's telling you whatyou're getting by hiring them.
Right.
Um, and, and it certainly beginsto tell the story of what you're
(03:48):
getting.
Right.
Two guys in a truck sounds likea moving company.
And that's what I believe it is.
Um, but then there are instanceswhere it's called Chipotle,
right?
Right.
And Chipotle, the only reasonwhy Americans.
Get an idea of what that is, isbecause of the marketing that's
(04:08):
happened with that brand.
But outside of that, especiallywhen they came around the, the
flavoring of Chipotle pepper wasnot.
Within the American lexicon,right?
This is a name that went throughnumerous permutations.
It undoubtedly had numerousfocus groups, right?
It was spearheaded by a largecorporation, and so that's how
(04:32):
we ended up with Chipotle.
Johnny Diggz (04:34):
Does, um.
I guess, you know, the samecould be said for Nike, right?
So Nike, that's, I don't evenknow if that was a word or
before, but,
Doug Berger (04:43):
well, it's certainly a, a God, right?
Is it?
Oh, okay.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, and, and so the, uh, Idon't know what it's a God of,
but I remember something about awinged foot or something to that
effect.
Sounds plausible.
And, and I believe that's wherethe swoosh idea came from.
Um, which that's an even moreamazing story, uh, about how the
(05:05):
swoosh came to be and, andultimately how the designer who
created it was ultimatelycompensated.
Because initially it was just a,a, a, a small payment that she
received in exchange for doingit.
Johnny Diggz (05:19):
So, but what you're saying is.
Nike's brand isn't the name andit's not the swoosh.
Doug Berger (05:27):
So it's all of it, right?
It is the story of where it istoday and where it came from,
and it, so that makes the brandstory, the, yeah, it, there are
all of these components, right?
The logo is part of the brand.
It's in, it's part of thattoolbox, right?
And so the tagline that's on theoutside of the toolbox might be
(05:50):
a sticker that says, just do it.
Right.
Um, and then inside that, thattoolbox, you also have an
instruction manual.
That instruction manual is.
Ostensibly your, your messagingbrands scape, as we call it,
right?
Your messaging brands scape.
What's that?
That's your vision, yourmission, your position, your
tone, your core values, yourbrand story, the who you are,
(06:12):
the what you do, the why you doit, and for whom you do it.
All of those particular details.
And speaking of who you do it,who for whom you do it, you, um,
you also have your targetaudiences, and then we have all
of our messaging.
We have our.
Our broad messaging, and we haveour vertical messaging.
And our vertical messaging is tospeak to the services and
(06:34):
solutions we provide, and on atargeted level to each of those,
uh, those audience segments.
Johnny Diggz (06:41):
So you can see.
Why it would be important tosort of identify those ahead of
time.
Because if you're gonna spendmoney marketing, you gotta kind
of know, you know, I think,yeah,
Doug Berger (06:52):
it's the why, why are you marketing, why are you
spending that money?
Right.
Johnny Diggz (06:55):
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, like the idea of puttinga billboard up by the side of
the road.
Um, might get attention, butwhat kind of attention are you
trying to get?
You know, are you, are youlooking for people who are
driving by?
Doug Berger (07:10):
It sounds like you're talking about another
episode where we maybe get intomarketing funnels, but, but it
in, in that instance, right?
Because it a, a billboard is.
I generally refer to them as avanity project because it's part
of an awareness campaign, right?
It, it, it can be peripherally,part of a conversion campaign,
(07:33):
but who is gonna be driving by a45 miles per hour taking a
picture of a QR code?
Johnny Diggz (07:38):
But yeah, that's true.
Um, I, every time I see a QRcode on one of those, i, I, I
wonder, but the um.
But I'm talking more in the, inthe terms of a brand.
I mean, when I, when I drivearound anybody in this day and
age, you see tons of brands andone of the places you see in
them is on a billboard.
You see?
Sure.
You know John Morgan, one of thehuge brand, right?
(07:58):
Um, absolutely probably thelargest lawyer brand in the
world.
He is a
Doug Berger (08:02):
large lawyer.
Johnny Diggz (08:03):
He's a large lawyer.
Um, but, uh, and he has, and,and so, you know, there's a,
there's a logo for Morgan andMorgan, but almost in my mind.
He is the brand for Morgan andMorgan.
He can, can the person be thebrand?
Doug Berger (08:19):
A, a a A person can definitely be a big part of the
brand.
Can they be the brand?
It really depends on, on howit's presented.
Um, for the most part, he isdefinitely the brand.
Uh, which I find kind of ironicconsidering the fact that he
can't even practice law.
But it doesn't change the factthat, you know, there's the.
And Morgan side of that, whichis his wife, who, who is also an
(08:43):
attorney, and then his children.
He has a, a, a few children thatwork at the firm if I, I assume
they're partners, um, who arealso by the last name.
Morgan.
Morgan.
So it's, uh, Morgan and Morgan.
And Morgan and Morgan.
Um, and, uh, but from a, from a.
A personal brand that transcendsinto the actual professional
(09:04):
brand, of course.
That that can definitely be athing.
Johnny Diggz (09:07):
While we're touching on there, um, you know,
there's, there's uh, I guesssome potential pitfalls about
tying a personality or a personto the brand if that person
becomes.
Toxic in any way.
It can have adverse effects onthe brand.
For example, what's happeningright now with Tesla and Elon
Musk
Doug Berger (09:27):
or, or what happened with, uh, Papa John's?
Right.
So you, you have people who havemade polarizing remarks and as a
result there are individuals whobasically use their personal
philosophies to drive how they,how they consume.
Right.
And so when you're talking aboutTesla.
(09:50):
There is a whole segment ofsociety that is saying, no, I'm
not going to support this brand,despite the fact that it
generally is a net positive forsociety, but because of the
perceived toxicity that he putsout there.
Nobody wants to put money in hispockets that make it possible
(10:12):
for him to evangelize his idea,his ideologies.
It's,
Johnny Diggz (10:16):
it's gotten to the, the further to the point
with his ex, uh, product, um,which oh man used to be Twitter.
He's actually actively suingother brands who are Oh, that's
right.
Who aren't advertising becausethey don't want their brand
associated with the stuff that'sbeing.
Published on his platform?
Doug Berger (10:37):
Well, I mean, can you, could you imagine being
Coca-Cola and having grok saythat, you know, something that
is Nazi related, uh, that is, isa alongside Coke?
Yeah.
Why would they take that risk?
No, not, yeah, it, it's aterrible idea for a brand to
engage in something that couldbe potentially toxic, especially
(11:00):
on a global scale, right?
We're talking about somethingthat is megalithic, and so
megalithic brands don't evenwant to touch it.
And then when you're looking atsmaller brands, it, it.
When you're talking about smallbusinesses specifically, it
becomes cost prohibitive andthen begs the question, why
would I spend a few thousanddollars a month that might be
(11:22):
close to 10% of my my net?
Why would I risk that alongsidea toxic brand?
Johnny Diggz (11:30):
The, um, you, you mentioned earlier, uh, you threw
out the messaging brands scape,uh, term.
Yeah.
Um, can talk about, uh, what.
You know, you mentioned the, thethings that are in a messaging
BrainScape.
Walk me through the steps ofwhat you do with a client to
help develop that.
I imagine that's one of thefirst things that you do.
Doug Berger (11:52):
Uh, yeah, it is actually.
Um, so we conduct.
It and what I like to call anabridged brand audit because a
comprehensive brand audit meansdi doing deep dive into
research, right?
Competitive research and, anddeep dive into what your
employees say about you, what issaid about you on social media
and so on.
Um, so I'm not gonna dig into tothat aspect of the brand audit.
(12:17):
So on the abridge side, what wewanna do is we wanna understand
who you believe your audiencesare.
So we can figure out whetherthat's even in parity with what
data tells us.
We will also want to make surethat, uh, we understand what
qualities you're trying toconvey.
(12:38):
Um, it just a series ofadjectives, right?
Are you professional?
Are you amiable, are youapproachable?
Um, it.
What, what values are importantto you, right?
Trust, transparency, integrity.
Exactly right.
Um, and, and the list goes on.
Uh, so then there are othercomponents that we wanna
(12:58):
understand.
Uh, how often do you payattention to metrics, right?
How often do you build yourmarketing strategy around what
your competition is doing?
How often, uh, do you receivefeedback?
What does your feedback looplook like?
Right?
So we go through this, this.
Process of discovery.
(13:18):
Then we take that informationalong with internal research
that we do.
And that research might be, uh,looking at what, uh, what
articles were and data we'refinding on Statista to, uh,
conducting our own, uh, focusgroups, formal focus groups
based on, uh, information thatwe've been able to derive,
(13:39):
right?
So we want to know who thetarget audiences are.
We want to know who the targetaudiences are based on
geography, and then expand fromthere.
That, that gives us a generalidea of where we're starting.
What is it that the customer,the client is wanting to
accomplish and who is theircustomer?
Right?
And how do you connect the two?
(14:01):
And that's really the wholepoint of this, um, messaging
BrainScape, is that it createsthat bridge between the customer
and the client.
Johnny Diggz (14:12):
And from that, then you, um.
You, you developed the, thevisual components then.
Doug Berger (14:22):
So you, you fast forwarded, uh, pretty quickly.
So, uh, once we have puttogether the messaging
BrainScape, then we, we don'tmove on to the visuals just yet,
uh, because we need to know whatthe marketing strategy is.
We need to understand what it isthat we're attempting to
accomplish because we need toknow where the audiences are and
(14:44):
how to reach them.
Um.
Yes, a visual identity is goingto be important, but if that
visual identity is only onsocial media, then that's gonna
have a different aesthetic thanif it's going to be a far
reaching brand identity that'sgonna be, uh, something that
might not just be in yourpocket.
Johnny Diggz (15:01):
What do you say to someone that comes to remixed
and say, I, you know, I justneed a website.
Or I just, you know, or Ialready have a logo and I just
need help with my social media.
Like what do you, how do yourespond, given everything you've
told me about brands?
How do you respond to that?
Doug Berger (15:17):
Well, we begin by assembling all of the materials
that they already have, right?
So it is, again, back to thisbrand, this informal brand
audit.
So we need to understand whatassets they have and what assets
are missing.
So if they already havemessaging, there's no need.
To rebuild from the ground up.
(15:38):
So, you know, there are plentyof established companies that
come to us and require ourassistance.
Um, are we going to make themstart from, from, uh, from zero?
No, absolutely not.
Um, but if we find along the waythat there are, are
opportunities, right?
So there are gonna be strengths,there are gonna be weaknesses,
(15:58):
there are gonna beopportunities, and there are
going to be threats.
Um, these are are continuous.
Pieces that are evaluated andwhen.
Their messaging seems weak, thenwe would present the
opportunities for improvement.
And the same is true for theirvisual language.
And the whole point though,there needs to be a reason, a
(16:20):
justification behind changing alogo, for example.
Why are we changing it?
Are we repositioning the brand?
Has our message changed?
Have our audiences changed?
What exactly has.
Has catalyzed this to occur.
Johnny Diggz (16:33):
Uh, you know, I, I just recently was watching, uh,
Jaguar came out with a bigrebrand, uh, recently, and there
was a lot of controversy overwhy they did what they did.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it's, and I guessedcorrectly for the record.
Yeah.
Um, we'll talk about what theydid, so.
(16:54):
Basically what they, they did.
It was, it was Jaguar's a is ais a Epic brand, right?
Yes.
It, it
Doug Berger (17:01):
was a Facily Aly Facily.
It, it was a, a fascinating casestudy on exactly what not to do
when it comes to a, a brandingcampaign.
Um.
It.
It was a tremendous success inthat it got a lot of people
(17:23):
talking, but it was an even moreepic failure in that we found
that the data simply did notback up the decision, and that's
what makes these kind ofundertakings questionable.
In this instance, there was noquestion in my mind that this
(17:45):
was them.
Unveiling their electric andhybrid vehicles, right?
They know that they have aclassic vehicle with a very
specific audience, and that thataudience is going to age out for
them and that the up and coming.
Audiences for them, their targetaudiences, their, their
(18:06):
consumers, for them,
Johnny Diggz (18:08):
their brands came, said to them, well,
Doug Berger (18:11):
I mean basically they had these old English
vehicles and people liked themfor being a classic car, right?
Right.
But people are gradually movingaway from fossil fuels toward
renewables, and as a result,Jaguar felt it imperative to
pivot.
The problem is sometimes whenyou pivot.
(18:33):
It's too fast and it's too hard.
And if you pivot too, tooquickly, you're gonna drop the
couch.
Johnny Diggz (18:40):
The, uh, yeah, there is definitely some couch
dropping, I believe.
Um, because there, the backlashover that, that, uh, Jaguar
campaign, although I, I agreewith you, the, the.
From all, all the look of allthe new vehicles, they're moving
away from that classic look.
They're moving, they've movedaway from the classic logo.
(19:01):
Um, so you know, the, all thenew colors are sort of bright
and, and, uh, uh, interesting,interesting maneuver.
So as we wrap up here talkingabout, um, the difference
between brands and.
Logos.
Um, but obviously they'reinterconnected.
What, what would you say tosomeone who is looking to maybe
(19:25):
give their brand a a, a newlook, a new refresh?
Like how would you, how wouldyou suggest they go about it?
Doug Berger (19:33):
The first thing that I would recommend is that
they call me.
No.
Um, the, the first thing that Iwould recommend is that they
come up with.
Qualitative and quantitativereasons for the decision, right,
that it shouldn't just be forthe sake of making a change.
But
Johnny Diggz (19:53):
it seems like sometimes that, that brands just
do that and they, you see thatlike, you know, if you look at
the history of like, all of, allof the logos for, uh, VW over
the years, even Coca-Cola.
Yeah.
I
Doug Berger (20:06):
mean, it, they, even these, the like subtle
FedEx, nuance, FedEx changed GYeah.
They, they've all, it, they'veall evolved over time.
Part of it is to keep the brandrelevant.
Right.
Yeah.
Um, the other parts are becausethere is a, a real purpose,
right?
When you feel like somethingneeds to change.
(20:27):
Chances are good, somethingneeds to change and you just
haven't figured out why.
Right?
And so when you engage with athird party, um, that, that can
become more and more pronouncedand more and more obvious.
And when you say third party,you mean like an agency?
Like an agency?
Yeah.
Or, or a brand consultant or amarketing consultant.
(20:47):
And you ever
Johnny Diggz (20:48):
come across when, you know, a new, uh, marketing
executive, a new CMO comes inand they just wanna make it
their own right.
Doug Berger (20:55):
Yeah, that definitely happens and I've
definitely experienced it whereit, it made no na no sense to
anybody, um, except forthemselves.
And, and, and generally hubrisand ego shouldn't be the driving
factor behind.
Right.
But many times it seems a brandposition.
Yeah, for sure.
I've definitely, definitelywitnessed that.
Um, but there, there should be ajustification and, and.
(21:17):
That justification often comesabout from either reassessing or
reaffirming your messagingbrands scape and that messaging
brands scape again, is, is yourvision still aligned with what
the long-term ideal is for thebrand?
It, and then is your mission,your way of getting there, is
that actually in lock step withhow you need to be and how you
(21:42):
need to perform in order to getto that ideal place?
Then you have all the otherpieces that fall underneath
that, right?
So answering your brand story,the who, the why, the what, the,
when, all of that good stuff.
Um, the how, uh, and, and anyother questions you'd like to
ask.
Um, but so yeah, it, I, I feellike when it comes to making a,
(22:07):
a brand adjustment or brandrepositioning, that it's just
important to be introspectiveand, and figure out why are you
doing this?
And then.
How should you do that?
Right?
What, what makes the most amountof sense?
Johnny Diggz (22:20):
Stop.
Stop.
Uh,
Doug Berger (22:22):
I'm, I stopped
Johnny Diggz (22:25):
now.
I was saying like, you know, I,we, we, it seems like we see a
lot of these, uh, brands.
I, I'm, for some reason I'mthinking of Airbnb, but, um,
other ones that, um, seem tocome out with a new logo that.
Um, wasn't necessarily, isn'tnecessarily that significant
change.
It doesn't seem like, like that.
(22:46):
It's just like, oh, it's a newfont, or it's, you know, they
have,
Doug Berger (22:50):
but it, the thing is that there is purpose behind
it.
We just might not see it.
We just might.
Turn our nose up at it becauseit, it, it feels inel, right?
We've seen this happen a lot,especially with luxury brands.
Um, we call it rebranding.
Um, where, where they've gonefrom having these beautiful.
(23:13):
Uh, serif type faces or thesebeautiful script faces that were
originally hand done and thenit's simply been replaced with
Helvetica.
And Helvetica is an amazingtypeface, but is it the right
typeface?
Not for everyone.
Johnny Diggz (23:31):
That's a good, good place to end this because
we all know that Helvetica isnot for everyone.
Doug Berger (23:37):
Thank you for tuning in to Brand of Brothers.
Big thank you to our presentingsponsor, Remixed, the branding
agency, along with productionassistance from Johnny Diggz,
Simon Jacobsohn, and me, DougBerger.
We can't forget music by PRO.
Speaking of not forgetting,remember to do that like and
subscribe thing and find us atBrandShowLive.
com and follow us on the socialsat BrandShowLive.
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