The Price of Freedom: Mark Rampolla on Entrepreneurship, Success, and Reinvention

In season 4's first episode of Braving Business, we sit down with Mark Rampolla, a trailblazing entrepreneur, investor, and author who didn’t just build a brand—he built an entire category. As the Founder of ZICO Beverages, Mark turned coconut water from a niche health trend into a global phenomenon, ultimately selling the company to Coca-Cola in 2013.

But success didn’t come easy. Five years on the verge of bankruptcy, high-stakes negotiations with Coca-Cola, and personal struggles—including chasing shiny objects, burying emotions, and relying on substances—shaped his journey in ways he never expected. Mark has since redefined what success means, stepping into the role of investor and mentor, and now as Co-Founder and Managing Partner of GroundForce Capital, he backs mission-driven consumer brands like Liquid Death and Thrive Market.

In this conversation, Mark opens up about:

• Why the traditional entrepreneurial success formula is broken—and how to flip it.
• How being first to market nearly killed ZICO, and how he finally turned it around.
• The biggest mistakes founders make when raising capital—and how to fix them.
• Why real freedom isn’t something you wait for—it’s something you create right now.
• Lessons from losing millions as an investor—and how he learned to play the game differently.

Mark’s upcoming book, An Entrepreneur’s Guide to Freedom, explores how founders can reclaim control of their lives, and in this episode, he shares his hard-won lessons on balancing ambition with well-being, success with self-awareness, and risk with resilience.

Oh, and yes—he really did personally unload 5,000 cases of ZICO in his early days.

Key Takeaways:

• The path to freedom isn’t through financial success—it starts with mindset and intention.
• Entrepreneurs fail when they chase growth for growth’s sake instead of aligning with their deeper purpose.
• Raising capital is a skill, and most founders make it harder on themselves by not understanding the game.

Connect with Mark Rampolla:

• LinkedIn: Mark Rampolla

Contact Us: Visit www.bravingbusiness.com for more information, resources, and episodes.

Mark’s story is raw, real, and packed with lessons for any entrepreneur—whether you’re building your first startup or trying to find your way back to the freedom you thought success would bring. This is one episode you don’t want to miss.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey there, I'm Tals Lotnitsky from Ignite IT Consulting.

(00:05):
You know me from the Braving Business podcast, but when I'm not behind the mic, I'm helping
tech startups and established companies ignite their full potential.
I also help entrepreneurs and businesses in distress reset for success.
With over three decades of entrepreneurial success, I bring hands-on experience to drive
growth, navigate turnarounds, raise capital, and lead to innovation.

(00:28):
Whether it's executive coaching or strategic transformation, I'm here to turn your business
challenges into success stories.
Visit igniteitconsulting.com and let's spark that change together.
That's igniteitconsulting.com.
Your journey to business brilliance starts now.
One last quick thing.

(00:49):
If you enjoyed this episode, please stay on after the show to learn more about the Braving
Business podcast and other great episodes for you to discover.
And now, let's get the show started.
Well, hello.

(01:14):
Today we're going to be starting off a little bit different than we normally do because
there's a lot of pain out in the nation right now, especially out in California.
Of course, we had some pain before in the Carolinas, but I'm wearing a shirt today that
I've worn before.
I try not to double wear shirts, but I'm wearing a shirt today that was in support of the fires
in Hawaii.

(01:35):
Right now in California, there are fires that are devastating and people are being affected.
And unfortunately, our guest today, which Tal and I are going to bring in right now,
is a gentleman who has suffered the loss of his house firsthand due to these fires.
And Richard, we're so sorry, Mark.
Thank you for coming on and sharing your story with us.

(01:59):
You're welcome, PJ.
Tal, thanks for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
Yeah, I'll do the...
Tal, if you want to pop in on anything, I can do our normal pre-...
Yeah, before we do the normal intro, Mark is an incredible guest and we're very fortunate
to have him.
And frankly, I would not have blamed him at all for rescheduling given the fact that he

(02:22):
literally lost his home within the last few days.
So Mark, I'm grateful that you're here.
I think this is going to be on so many levels, a very compelling episode because your story
is incredible.
What you've accomplished is incredible, but the challenges you've overcome along the way
and the lessons you've learned, I think are going to be just as valuable, if not more
valuable than the accomplishments and successes.

(02:47):
But I look forward to also discussing with you the current situation in California and
what you're going through.
But yeah, PJ, why don't we go ahead and share Mark's bio and get going.
Okay, thank you very much.
So today our guest is Mark Rampala.
He is a trailblazing entrepreneur and investor and an author who has built a career by pursuing

(03:10):
high-hanging fruit, bold opportunities that others overlook.
Mark is best known as the founder and CEO of ZECO Beverages, where he turned a daring
vision for coconut water into a global phenomenon.
Under Mark's leadership, ZECO delivered nine years of explosive growth, became one of the
fastest growing beverage brands in the world, and was acquired by Coca-Cola in 2013.

(03:34):
But Mark's journey hasn't always been smooth, as you know on this show.
He spent years on the verge of bankruptcy, faced challenges negotiating with Coca-Cola,
even navigated personal struggles for an, sorry, or what he has called, and I quote,
his tendencies or my tendencies to chase shiny objects, bury emotions, and rely on

(03:54):
substances, which we'll dig into a little bit.
Today Mark is a co-founder and managing partner of Ground Force Capital, where he invests
in mission-driven consumer brands like Liquid Death and Thrive Market.
He's also the author of High Hanging Fruit, Build Something Great by Going Where No One
Else Will, a book that challenges us to dream bigger and aim higher.

(04:15):
He is also about to publish a new book, An Entrepreneur's Guide to Freedom, which we'll
talk about as well.
Mark has advised over 100 CEOs, raised over a billion in capital, served on more than
20 boards, and personally invested in over 40 social impact startups across food, beverage,
health, technology, and energy.

(04:36):
He was recognized as BevNet's 2010 Beverage Innovator of the Year and has been featured
in major media, including the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Forbes,
Fortune, Bloomberg, CNBC, and The Conscious Company.
Mark's story is one of resilience, reinvention, and redefining freedom on his own terms, and

(04:57):
we're thrilled to have him here on the Brave Young Business Podcast.
Welcome.
Mark, thank you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
So Mark, first of all, thank you for being a fan of the show.
You told us that you've listened to us before and that's always very flattering to hear
that entrepreneurs like you are finding our show to be useful.

(05:18):
But I'm going to throw away or at least put aside the first question, which is about your
career and start with your current story.
So you and your family live in California.
You're currently in Santa Monica, but that isn't where you live.
Can you share with our audience a little bit of what's going on for you and your family
right now?
Sure.
It was so interesting to hear what I had written to you a while back and prepped for this or

(05:41):
my team had given you and thinking about the ups and downs of life and business.
So yeah, I've lived for a year, I guess I got to figure out where my new address is
in Pacific Palisades.
And I've lived there alone.
I was married for over 20 years and lived in Redondo Beach and my ex-wife and I raised
our girls there.

(06:02):
They went off to college and their lives, so I lived alone in the Palisades for the
last year and I've absolutely loved it.
I had the most incredible house, 1949 mid-century modern, like I was in heaven.
And I got word on Tuesday, I left Tuesday for our office in Venice Beach and I got word

(06:24):
that there were fires right behind the Palisades where I hike and mountain bike a couple of
times a week.
And I could see them from my office in Venice and my romantic partner, Caroline had just
left my house.
She goes there pretty regularly for a beautiful sauna I just installed.
And she told me that it was scary and so she kind of took off in a hurry and I never went

(06:51):
back.
Actually, that's not true.
I went back on Thursday because I wanted to see for myself the devastation and actually
begin the mourning process by seeing the house.
She and I hiked in about an hour, masks on and protective gear and it was like a war

(07:12):
zone.
I've seen war zones, I've seen hurricanes, I've seen tornadoes, I've seen lots of devastation
and I've seen nothing like this.
Just gone.
The whole community gone.

(07:34):
This is very impactful.
I am so sorry you've experienced this.
I'm so sorry for the tens of thousands of people out there who are affected by it, all
the people having to flee.
It's millions, PJ.
It's millions of people who are affected by it.
Maybe not millions of people who lost their homes.
Yeah, no, no, you're absolutely right.
Thank you.
The concept of a go bag is something that just seems so unnatural.

(07:58):
I know.
I'm so sorry you went through that.
I'm so happy that Caroline's okay.
I'm assuming that your ex-wife and your children are okay.
Your friends are okay, I hope.
Dogs are okay.
I'm always cautious of how I say this because I do feel for so many people that have lost

(08:19):
so much and that have so much less than me to begin with and don't have the resources
and connections to rebuild.
But in many ways, I feel incredibly liberated.
I love my house.
It's not like I wanted to lose my house or anything in it.
But I'll tell you, being an entrepreneur has taught me about this loose spiritual concept

(08:45):
that people may laugh about, attachment.
I just learned as an entrepreneur, if you're attached to your identity, if you're attached
to attach to the results of your business, to attach to any one quarter, week, month,
year, customer, person, investor, whatever it is, you risk pain and suffering.

(09:06):
This is the reality.
How can you build towards the outcome you want and so you almost become imperturbable
to anything that comes.
Ironically, I think I've built those skills around entrepreneurship that are unbelievably
helpful right now because I'm aware that I'm probably still in shock.

(09:29):
I'm going to go through some denial.
I'm going to go through all the stages of grief.
But at the same time, I feel so happy to be alive.
I'm wearing my girlfriend's ex-husband's clothes.
I love it.
Great guy, same size, fortunately.
A little taller than I am, so I roll up the cuffs.
You know what I bought since Tuesday?

(09:53):
Toothpaste, toothbrush, floss.
That's it.
I'm not buying anything for a while.
I'm not buying anything for a while.
But fortunately, we came up to Santa Barbara.
We're camped out here.
Friend of a friend, random person.
Never even met them.
Gave us a house.
Wow.
So Mark, it's a little overwhelming listening to this.

(10:15):
You said a lot of things there that I want to tease out a little bit and particularly
the part around attachment.
It's taken me a long time to accept what is a fact, not just in business, but in life,
that don't be attached to anything because everything in life is temporary.

(10:38):
If something's good, it's temporary.
If something is bad, it's temporary.
It doesn't mean you shouldn't care.
This is not a statement of, oh, well then nothing matters.
It's actually quite the opposite.
Everything that matters to you matters.
It is simply that you should be willing to accept that at any given point, things will
change.

(10:59):
If you're willing to accept change as an inevitable part of life, success, failure, just life,
if you're willing to accept that, whatever comes your way, you'll be able to persevere
and get through the other side.
So this is a great moment to shift and talk about the business of Zico.

(11:23):
And obviously, as PJ said, nine years of explosive growth, one of the fastest growing beverage
brands acquired the Coca-Cola.
Sounds like, oh my God, this man came up with a great name, opened a company and just experienced
nothing but success.
It was just smooth sailing.
But the reality was anything but that.
The reality was it was painful.

(11:46):
You almost failed multiple times.
Five years of living on the verge of bankruptcy.
I know of what you speak of.
The companies I've founded, there are many moments in my career where nowadays I can
tell a beautiful story.
I started this company and after several years, we were processing $3 billion in payments
and then Goldman Sachs became involved.

(12:07):
It sounds so great, but the truth of the matter was there were so many ugly moments.
So let's talk about that.
Talk about the story of Zico.
The unglamorous, if you will, story of Zico.
Yeah, so here's the, I'll give you a few examples of the unglarious.
It started pretty quickly.
So I had a corporate job working for a Fortune 50 company in Latin America.

(12:32):
People know what this is on an expat package.
Companies paying for housing and schooling.
We're living the high life.
A couple of years before that, I was a Peace Corps volunteer making 187 bucks a month.
My wife and I felt like we were living high and we were in many ways.

(12:54):
Then I assumed, okay, start the business.
That's going to be challenging, but I'll be able to take enough of an income.
Yeah, we'll be okay.
There'll be some ups and downs.
We had a few bucks saved.
The reality is within six months, I'd raised a million dollars and I thought I would never
need another dollar.

(13:15):
Within six months, we had received a notice from the FDA that we were forbidden from importing
any more products and paperwork glitch, and we were bankrupt.
Company was bust.
Six months.
Moved my family.
I was married, two young kids moved from El Salvador to New York and then up in New Jersey.

(13:36):
Then things started getting real.
That's what began that process.
Okay, you're going to face reality as an entrepreneur.
Bam, we're on training the fans.
Wow.
First of all, a couple of things.
I love the fact that you mentioned how your training as an entrepreneur helped you during

(13:59):
this hurdle that you're facing right now, that a lot of people are facing right now.
Love that, especially since we're an entrepreneur show.
I love that.
But also the human side, that's why we're popular.
I don't want to gloam over the loss that you've just faced and that you've yet to maybe fully
assimilate into your psyche.

(14:19):
I do appreciate the fact that you found your inner Zen and you kind of went Buddha.
That's cool.
And that you floss.
I appreciate that fact as well.
The dental hygiene of this man is amazing.
The things that get back to your point that you give meaning to, like, I got to keep my
teeth clean.
Hey.
I mean, whatever gets you through the day.

(14:40):
So I guess that actually leads to this, where you go from El Salvador, you go back to New
York, then to New Jersey, you have a wife, you have two wonderful daughters.
What keeps you going?
You've faced some pretty hard trials.
What keeps that engine going?
When I look back on that, PJ, I think it's different the way I would have said it then

(15:03):
and the way I'd say it now.
When I look back now, I realize how much fear I had, fear of failure, and nothing wrong
with that.
I can be a very powerful motivator.
And also ironically, in a weird way of fear of success, I was kind of stuck in this middle

(15:26):
ground of like, if I fail, I'm a failure.
I'm an idiot.
I'm going to lose my life.
I'm going to lose everything, which is a fallacy.
But I believe that.
And I also was very ironically motivated by this fear of too much success too soon.
And so in a way, those were powerful motivators and they kept me going in this sort of middle

(15:52):
ground.
And look, by most standards, I had quite a level of success.
But I actually look back and realize if I had come to terms with some of the things
I've come to terms with now, I bought into this myth that work hard, have a great idea,
work hard, make a ton of money, then I'll be free.
So I was always working towards that next thing, that next thing, that just a little

(16:16):
bit more.
Somebody interviewed JD Rockefeller once forever ago and asked him how much is enough?
And he said, just a little bit more.
That's just how we are as entrepreneurs.
And it's beautiful and it's wonderful and it can be a fallacy.
It can be an attachment.
And then I've come to believe it can hold you back from having the highest level of

(16:38):
success you might have on the line.
I was going to say it's almost like a security blanket.
You find yourself in this comfort zone where, okay, I feel like I'm doing enough to keep
busy and to maintain momentum.
But what if I reach that success?
What will happen?
I'm comfortable where I'm at kind of.
I'm used to this rote every day, waking up, doing this, doing that.

(17:01):
I got my jive going.
But what if you break it big?
Then what?
Right?
And there's a lot of fear.
I got to challenge you both on that.
I mean, I'm not saying that there's nothing to what you're saying.
I'm not dismissing it.
I would say that I absolutely agree with you that fear is a constant companion for entrepreneurs.
I certainly felt it every single day.
I remember we've had guests on the show that are billionaires who told us there isn't a

(17:23):
day that they don't experience fear.
So I think fear is if you're not experiencing it, you're likely not an entrepreneur.
And frankly, people feel fear that aren't entrepreneurs is kind of part of life.
I would say that fear of success is quite low on my list of fears.
Okay.
It is really much more about fear of failing and being an idiot.

(17:46):
Well, if you put it that way.
Would you not agree?
Well, look, I'll tell you, Tal, this is where the experience gets individual.
Right?
What I've come to terms with is the family I grew up in was a non-business family.
It was a social activist family.
So the Peace Corps made more sense than starting a business.
School of the Environment degree that I got made more sense than an MBA.

(18:09):
And so I absolutely believe everybody's on their own journey, but my journey absolutely
was fear of success.
I didn't realize it was unconscious.
And I'll tell you where it started to play out is after I sold the business.
And I became a little bit of an idiot with money.
It's nice to say I invested in 40 companies across all this area, all these different

(18:31):
areas.
When I look back, I had no strategy, no initiative.
And in some ways, unconsciously, I was almost pushing the money away.
And I've heard this story a lot.
It's not universal, but everybody's got their things that are hidden, what we deny, avoid,
bury, holds us back in some ways.
And that was for me something that held me back.

(18:54):
It's interesting that you say that.
I can relate to that more.
I also sold four companies and after the sale of the second when I became wealthy, I also
was an idiot with money.
So I can relate to that part and made several bad investments and was not strategic.

(19:14):
I'm not sure that it was fear of success.
I think it was just, well, I think it was more likely arrogance and not knowing any
better.
There you go.
Right.
And that's, yeah, I had that too.
And again, I think one of the things I'm coming to learn, and this is where I spent a lot
of time with the entrepreneurs we work with is my story is my story.
Do you know your story?

(19:35):
Do you understand your blind spots?
Do you understand your areas of avoidance or denial or whatever?
And if not, we tend to be a little bit of a mirror holding it up, right?
Unless you have, and even if you have a coach, a therapist, whatever else it is, because
my experience is those personal things are what stand between extraordinary success.

(19:58):
As an investor now, look, have no doubt about it.
I'm looking for extraordinary success, but I believe that it's the entrepreneurs that
can free themselves from their own hangups and limiting beliefs, whatever they are, that
really are going to achieve the success that they want.
All right.
Well, fear of success.
So when you are sitting at the table, I can only imagine this huge table with lots of

(20:21):
people there, negotiating with Coca-Cola and dealing with Pepsi, buying your supplier,
there must've been some pretty high stake moments.
Can you take us inside one of those negotiations and share what you learned about resilience
and leadership on the hot seat?
Yeah.
Yeah.
One comes to mind as you're saying that, that's intertwined with Coke and Pepsi.

(20:46):
And so I was talking to both of them about making an investment, not acquiring the company,
but sort of making an investment with a potential path to ownership.
And I remember meeting with a senior person at Pepsi who played things really close to
the best, gave nothing away, really tight with all information.

(21:06):
What he didn't know is that I knew that he was talking to our supplier in Brazil.
So I knew this guy's play is they're going to try to undercut us all.
Three competitors all buying from the same source or approximately a chunk of our volume
from the same source.
They're going to buy it out and undercut us all.
They don't think the brand matters.

(21:27):
Right?
So I remember thinking, walking out of that meeting, feeling like, okay, I understand.
I didn't get a bit of information, but I understand the play.
Coke on the other hand is learning that Pepsi is planning to buy out this group and in fact
does buy this group out.
So they start to say, well, what's a brand without supply?
So one group thinks a supply without a brand is all you need.

(21:47):
The other thinks really only wants the brand, but realizes without supply, we're dead in
the water.
And so what I remember is the Coke team asking me before we're about to close the deal within
a day or so of closing the deal, hey, how do you feel about the fact that you're about
to lose your supply?

(22:07):
And so fortunately I was ready for the question and my response was, I'm not worried.
Right?
Brazil produces less than 10% of the global coconut water market.
We can source this all over the place.
We've been meaning to diversify for some time.
It could be a little painful for a few months and maybe a year, but we'll get through it.
Meanwhile, I was freaking out.

(22:29):
And so what I realized is the power of that intention, the confidence, it wasn't BS.
I was upfront with them, but really the confidence to know that I don't know exactly how, but
we are going to figure this out.
Let's talk about, this is golden.

(22:50):
I'd be remiss if I didn't first thank you for being so, so open, truthful.
Yeah.
We've had people who have shared with us similar moments in their career and we've asked them
the question of my God, what must've been like to be you at that moment?

(23:10):
And many people struggle to be honest about how freaked out they were, how my goodness,
you three o'clock in the morning and you're staring at the ceiling and you're like, my
God, how will this turn out?
And of course, in a moment like the one you faced, there was nothing you said to them

(23:35):
that wasn't truthful.
You believe that, hey, you know what?
I'll figure it out.
I'll figure other things out.
Okay.
I'll get there.
You put some spit shine on that baby, which you have to do.
That's not lying.
Okay.
No.
Okay.
That's varnishing.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(23:55):
Let's go.
Talk to me about what it felt like inside your head in those moments.
Yeah.
It's very interesting you say that.
So you're helping me realize even more deeply something about myself.
And I think a lot of entrepreneurs have this as well.
I see possibility in everything.

(24:18):
And particularly in a crisis, I am really freaking good in a crisis.
Now I'll sort of fast forward and tell you where I'm not so good and help you understand
how they relate to each other is maintenance.
And this is a prime example.
I am really good at getting through something like this.
House burns down, whatever.

(24:39):
I'll get a new house.
I won't get a house.
I'll get things.
I won't get things.
Doesn't matter.
But the reality is what's going on inside, I'm not always great at maintaining.
And that in the past has bitten me ass with drinking and other things and crazy investing.
So when I look back, what I know about myself is I frankly go a little bit numb.

(25:03):
I learned at a certain age, and I've talked to other entrepreneurs that say the same thing,
to cut off my emotions.
I was a very emotional kid.
I cried.
I laughed.
I screamed.
I learned in Pittsburgh, you get beat up for that.
I learned in college, you get made fun of for that.
I learned in business, there's no place for emotion.
So I got good at that.

(25:24):
Cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut.
So when situations get tough, I go into an automaton.
I get shit done.
I'm going to figure this out, come hell or high water.
There's pride on the line.
There's ego in line.
There's everything else.
The reality is underneath, I'm sort of like a swan, right?
On the surface, everybody thinks, my God, this guy is cool, collected and whatever.
Underneath, man, I'm screaming like crazy.

(25:46):
And back then, I can tell you, I'm not thrilled to admit this, but what that meant for me
is come five o'clock, six o'clock, seven o'clock, whatever it is, it's scotch, it's
tequila, it's wine, because I got to deal with all this stuff I haven't dealt with during
the day, comes five, six, seven AM, it's coffee, coffee, coffee, coffee, coffee.

(26:08):
So the reality is I had coping mechanisms.
I learned to get through these things, but holy cow, that bit me in the ass a decade
later that I could tell you about in another way.
There are all these emotions going on.
Entrepreneurs are really good at burying them, and there's something amazing about that and
wonderful about that until it's not, until it's not.

(26:32):
Wow.
So, Mark, I think this is the third or fourth time I've said wow in 25 minutes of recording.
And that's actually PJ usually says wow.
I don't know.
I know.
Sorry, hold on.
Wow.
Wow.
I got to go wow to PJ.
Right.
Oh, no, we're going to cover that a little bit.
But go ahead, Tom.
You know, as you were speaking about what you're good at, it prompted me to reflect on my own

(26:57):
journey.
I also had some harrowing setbacks in my career, including a company that I'd built, as I said,
a company that I built from nothing, along with my brother, a company that was processing
billions of dollars in payments for tens of thousands of customers.
And then a setback losing a lawsuit unfairly, a lawsuit that later on ended up being resolved

(27:19):
out of court after the after appeal, cost me nearly everything.
Wow.
And in that moment of time, where I went in my head was I was calm.
Everyone around me was asking me how the heck I was dealing with the fact that I'd lost
tens of millions of dollars and it didn't even register.

(27:39):
I was numb.
All I was focused on is I need to get through this.
Yeah.
And I did.
I was able to get through it.
It was later that I suffered a breakdown.
Right.
A couple of years later, actually after I'd left the company.
So everything you said resonates with me.

(28:00):
There are going to be tons and tons of people that are listening to this podcast who are
going to appreciate that whatever they've gone through in their life, and it doesn't
have to be that you lose a business worth tens of millions or a house or losing your
supply or house, right?
It doesn't have to be quite that extreme.

(28:22):
Whatever you're feeling is okay.
If at the moment that you're experiencing it, your body's reaction, your mind's reaction
is to, I don't know, virtually shut down, go on autopilot.
It's okay.
If you get emotional, it's okay.
Just accept that that is where you are.
That is what you need at that time.

(28:45):
Maybe the only thing that's not okay is to lose your head.
To lose your head at that point can take different meanings.
It sounds like you managed to keep your senses about you in ways that weren't so healthy.
So in those moments in time, some people are able to keep their wits about them through

(29:09):
exercise, others through drinking or drugs or hypersexuality or what have you.
When did you realize, I mean, you need to do what you need to do to get through the
moment, but when did you realize my ways are sending me to oblivion?
Yeah.
Well, great question.
Look, you said so much there that brings some stuff up for me, one of which is the phrase

(29:36):
I use now, we use as an investment firm, the only investment firm in the world that uses
the phrase, feel all the feelings.
I'm going to challenge you on one thing.
Not only they're okay, they are data.
Our emotions are data.
If we learn to interpret them, we can give them the good meaning, bad meaning, or we

(29:59):
can just look at them as data.
Oh, isn't this interesting?
I'm experiencing some fear.
I'm experiencing some anger.
We in our investment committees talk like that.
Okay?
Now, the reason is because I learned the tough way when I made some really dumb investments
and there was clearly a lot of emotion going on and I tried to claim I'm not emotional.

(30:20):
I'm not emotional, right?
And it was.
So I learned this over the last six years and I learned it after I pretty much woke
up one day after having sold my business, millions in the bank, beautiful house, looking
over the Pacific.
I already had made a ton of investments, started this investment firm.

(30:42):
And I woke up and realized one day that I was not anywhere near as free as I thought
I would be because I was trapped by all these emotions and expectations and more and less
and this and that.
And so I started diving deep into learning about my emotions, learning about emotions,

(31:03):
like the basics, like the stuff they never teach in school.
Like exactly what you said, Tom, we have feelings.
We're human, we have feelings.
That's okay.
Business is a place for emotions.
Like anywhere is a place for emotions.
As long as you're aware of them and talk about them.
What's so crazy about talking about them, right?
So it took me, but it took me probably four years to undo this ridiculous mindset in the

(31:26):
business world that there's no place for emotions and start to actually feel again.
And the more I felt again, I learned the process emotions, kind of like you process a meal,
right?
We got an emotionally digestive system, just like we do a physical digestive system.
And so that's been a process for me over about the last six years to sort of just kind of

(31:48):
accept, okay, this is just reality.
This is the way the world works.
It's the way I work.
This is the way people work.
So PJ, I'm sorry, I'm stepping all over you with questions today, but this just so much
that Mark's-
No worries.
No worries.
Prompting for me, emotions, feelings, and you provided some of the best answers.

(32:10):
So for the sake of our audience, our guests are provided with a detailed questionnaire
ahead of the interview that we use to both get to know them and also formulate our questions.
And some guests do a nice job.
Everybody that's on, anybody that gets in the air has done a good job.
We turned out a lot of interviews, but Mark did exceptional in his answers.

(32:36):
And I actually, Mark is pumping his fists up in the air and I appreciate that.
I'm going to read your answer to one of our questions.
The question is, how have you overcome these obstacles and what were some key learnings
from these experiences?
I'm going to read your question and then I have your answer to the question.
And then I have a question about your answer.

(32:58):
You wrote the following.
For most entrepreneurs, beneath the drive to solve a big problem, change the world of
mass wealth or create a legacy, often lies a deep desire for personal freedom.
Freedom from fear, anxiety, problems, limitations, freedom to say, do, create, and live as they

(33:19):
choose.
Most of us believe that entrepreneurs are free and entrepreneurship is a sure path to
freedom.
Implicit in that belief is a sort of success formula that goes something like this.
Vision plus hard work equals business success equals financial success equals freedom.

(33:43):
After everything I've been through and after speaking with hundreds of entrepreneurs and
working closely with and investing behind scores, I've come to one undeniable conclusion.
The formula is fundamentally flawed.
And you go on, I want to stop here and ask you, how did you come to this conclusion and

(34:09):
what does the flipped formula look like?
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
Let me ask you both back a question to see if I'm, before I answer that.
No, you haven't paid us enough money for that.
No, I'm just kidding.
When you think about all the people you've interviewed on this show, all the business
people you met, millionaires, decade millionaires, cent to millionaires, billionaires, would

(34:34):
you say on average they're more free than the average humans you meet in your daily
life over your entire lifetime?
Or about the same or less?
Hmm.
It's a great question.
I've never pondered it.
PJ, what's your answer?
Oh, sure.
Throw it to me.
Of course.
You know, maybe a definition of freedom is like, well, that's what I was going to ask.

(34:59):
A sense that you're aware of your everything that's going on outside world, inside world,
emotions, feeling anger, excitement.
You know what motivates you.
You really know what motivates her.
You understand, yeah, God, you know what?
Part of this is because I believe this story I heard 25 years ago about what success means.

(35:19):
You can take your brutal questions and think about them and handle them.
Your relationships, the way that you really want to be, not what you should, success should
look like, not the kind of person you should be dating, not the club you should be involved
in, the vacation you should take, the boat you should have, the plane you should have,

(35:40):
and truly living their life the way they're meant to live on this planet.
Yeah.
All right.
You're making me get all philosophical now.
So what?
Plato used to say that the body is the jail of the soul, right?

(36:04):
Basically, I'm paraphrasing clearly.
But basically, that's the premise.
And I think in a lot of ways, if you look at that, if you look at, hey, we're kind of
trapped in our own reality, and we can't get out until we're not in this reality anymore,
then you're looking at it being confined in cells.
And I think that entrepreneurs just make themselves a better cell, right?

(36:27):
There you go.
Right?
They're decorating it nicer, and maybe they got a view, and the meals are better.
But it's still a jail, so to speak, because the freedom that they're experiencing is through
the work that they're putting towards it.
So are they more free than other people?
No, not empirically, but I think that they're probably just a little bit more satisfied

(36:50):
with the view.
There you go.
Look, I think you're right.
And that's how I found myself.
And what I've seen, and here, when I went up talking to entrepreneurs, kind of one-on-one
in real situation, I hear this again and again, the day I woke up, I'm looking outside at
the Pacific Ocean and thinking, I got a great view, but I'm back on the hamster wheel without

(37:14):
quite realizing why, not fully by choice.
And so what I've come to believe is just this idea that make enough money, and everything
will take care of itself.
I hear it again and again and again and again.

(37:34):
The physical health, I'll take care of it then.
The relationship issues, I'll take care of it then.
And the reality is, I don't see it.
I know enough billionaires, I know enough centimillionaires, I know enough decadent
millionaires, it ain't no different.
And so what I'm at least realizing myself, whether this is relevant for anybody else,
for them to decide, is I'm not waiting.

(37:58):
I'm not waiting.
I'm focusing on freedom now.
But I can tell you, my freedom is when I come into a board meeting, I'm coming in present.
I haven't been drinking the night before.
I wake up, do the workout I need to do, eat what I need to eat when I need to eat it.
And when I show up, I'm sharing.

(38:19):
If I feel something's off, if I'm feeling some fear, if I'm feeling like somebody's
not doing something, we're going to have a radically brutal conversation.
And we have radically, but we have them from a sense of, I'm not attached to being right.
I could be completely wrong, but I'm going to give you what I have and let you do with
it what you need to do.
You know, one of the-
Wait, wait, I need to unpack that before you go in.

(38:40):
Go ahead.
So talk to me, what do you mean by uncommonly brutal?
Help me understand what that looks like.
I'll tell you one thing and I'll put my own point of view, which people who've listened
to this podcast probably know all too well.
I don't believe anyone has the right to be an asshole.
I don't believe that you ever have the right to be an asshole.

(39:04):
You do not at any moment in time.
And now this is speaking as a recovering asshole, right?
As somebody that did this for a living.
There was a CEO that often, or when he felt that he should, or when he woke up on the
wrong side of the bed, allowed himself to terrorize people.
Not proud of that at all.
So tell me what you mean by that.
Yeah, great point, Tal.
Great point.
I'll give you a couple of examples.

(39:27):
Let me give you one in reverse.
The kind of culture we've created is one where I want more feedback than I give.
And so I was in New York and I remember vividly walking down the streets and I get a call
from Alice and Alice is on our team.

(39:48):
We're a small team.
These investment firms are pretty small.
So we're a dozen people or so, but Alice, there's me, my partner, then COO, head of
investments, principal, blah, blah, blah.
Alice is the youngest person on the team.
So she calls me and says, Mark, are you open for a clearing?
That's a code word that says, I got a zinger for you.

(40:10):
Are you ready for it?
But we've trained in how to use that language.
Like I did when I started this, I check in.
Yep, hold on.
Yeah, I'm good.
I might say, no, I'm not open.
I can feel like I'm getting defensive.
I'm getting protected.
But in this situation, I said, I'm open.
So that's now a clue for her to let it go.

(40:31):
She can let it go because I know we're in a safe environment where we've done the work
to know I'm not going to hold her to every single period or sentence or intonation.
I want to hear it the way she has it in her mind.
And then she said, look, Mark, I'm just going to get it out.

(40:53):
You passed over a lead to us, your assistant, Nicola and I, and we were on it.
We scheduled the meeting, everything's set.
We're already at the data room going.
And then I know you're traveling, I understand you're busy, but you replied late at night
to the email, we look like idiots.
Now the CEO is getting three emails, one from me for the data room, one from Nicola to schedule

(41:16):
call and from you saying Nicola and Alice will follow up.
You know, Mark, look, you would be even more powerful to me if you just understood, trust
us and check your email.
Right?
That's what I mean by brutal.
Like, my world, that is a gift.

(41:39):
That's a gift.
She gave me a gift.
That's the kind of gift I give people as well.
Hey, Dan, my partner, we come out of a meeting, a Zoom call.
It happens all the time, off a Zoom call.
Dan, are you open for a clearing?
Yeah, I'm open.
Hey man, what the F is going on?
Like as far as I can tell, you're on your phone.
Like, are you in the meeting or you're on the phone?

(42:01):
And I wonder, is this meeting not important enough for you?
Like, why are you here?
Were you showing up or you're not showing up?
And he just hears it.
He can take it because we've done this enough.
And then he says afterwards, you know what, Mark?
I hear you.
I hear you.
The reality is I didn't want to be on that call.
I was planning my next meeting and you're right.
I should get, I want to get better at deciding if I don't want to be on a call, I'm not going

(42:22):
to be on a call.
And all it says, thank you.
That's it.
You heard me, we're done.
Right?
So you can call that brutal.
I call that love.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I, you're, you're, you're making me think of a couple of things, which I appreciate
and it's painful because I'm not used to thinking.
One of the, one of the things is that I, one of the things that I've learned, right?

(42:46):
So Tom mentioned we've, we've talked to dozens upon dozens of extremely successful people.
One of the themes that I have seen through that is the ability of separation, right?
Where they're, where they're able to take a step back and look at things from a broader
perspective, not emotionally and to attend to it as it needs to be, as it's presented

(43:08):
to them in front of them, right?
That's how I see it.
But one of the things that you're talking about, which I love is having a, having the
clear field of understanding of what a true partner is.
And for you to be able to come up to someone whom you trust, you don't have any biases,
you don't have any misgivings or anything and you're like, can I have a moment?

(43:30):
Do you have a clearing?
To have a candid conversation about whatever it is, is a gift.
And that is a, that is such an important tool in your Batman belt that you go through business
life every day because like I have a partner that I call and he knows if I call him, I'm

(43:52):
like, Hey, you got eight minutes.
He knows I ain't talking about our business or I could be talking about our business,
but I am needing to either emotionally verbally puke on him or something where I'm like, I
can't get past this.
I need help.
And it's where it's that little card that you can pull up and say, hold on, time out

(44:16):
everyone.
We need to talk about this.
Let me get level set.
What type of that environment that you've created for yourself where you're able to tell
people, Hey, do you have a moment?
I need to talk about something.
And that person already knows they don't know what you're going to talk about, but they
already know, Oh, I got to give my full attention and no feelings are hurt.
We're just going to have a talk.

(44:37):
I think that's good.
Let me just add one thing.
Feelings might be hurt and that's okay.
We all get the learn.
Right?
And so the beauty for me is where you combine both the observer is what I would call the
what you're talking about and being the drama queen or King.
Right?
It's like, how can you have both?

(44:58):
Cause the reality is we all go through that.
Right?
So without using whatever the language is doesn't matter.
But you know, I might say to my, my partner, my business partner, Hey man, can I get on
the drama triangle for a minute and just bitching Mo?
Right.
And I'll just bitching Mo, but we've done it enough.
We just laughing at the end of it.
I'm laughing at myself.
Why?

(45:18):
Right?
Cause I'm observing myself.
I got stuck in it.
I'm thinking I got to solve this.
I got a hero, this thing.
I'm thinking you're the idiot.
And I realized I'm calling myself an idiot.
And what it does is it creates a release valve.
First of all, second of all, we, we bond as humans through vulnerability.
So we're vulnerable and we get closer, but have no doubt.

(45:39):
We learn in business.
We get to some truth.
You know what, man?
I got some fear about this investment.
I can't put my finger on it.
I'm just not feeling it.
Let's go get some more data.
Now that data might be six months of work and $300,000 of diligence cost, right?
Driven by a feeling, but we have, we have more than made great investments.

(46:04):
We have avoided some investments because we, we, we, we gathered the data, the full learning
from everyone at a table from 20 years old to 55 on what was not just in the mind, not
just in the heart, but in the gut.
I love that.
So as I'm, as I'm hearing you, first of all, I'm thinking of a guest we had early on in

(46:29):
season one, Ken Bogard, the company's no honesty, K-N-O-W, no honesty.
I highly recommend that episode.
I think you would love that episode, Mark.
Right.
I also, you know, am reflecting on the fact that what you're talking about is black belt
stuff, right?
So to do what, what's Mark's talking about, what he and his partners and people on his

(46:55):
team are able to do, it's actually rooted in love.
Okay.
So that may seem counterintuitive because it sounds like we're talking about, man, this
is, you know, this is pretty brutal stuff, but it's actually rooted in love in feeling
love for the people that you're collaborating with and working with and feeling loved by
them because you know that it is all about getting to a better outcome and becoming a

(47:18):
better person.
It sounds to me like those things are intertwined.
They're not accidental.
They are intentional.
I mean, I don't feel that you, we left the answer for what is the formula, the flipped
formula, right?
If it's not vision plus hard work equals financial success equals, you know, equals freedom.

(47:43):
What is it?
But I think that in there is the root of what you and your partners and your team are doing.
Well, freedom first and freedom always.
And what does that mean?
To me, that means, in fact, what I'm, what I'm writing about and, you know, come back
in a couple of months when I'm done with this is basically what we've done as a firm, what

(48:08):
I've done personally, what my partner Dan has done through accommodation of individual
work, coaching work, therapy work, right?
And it starts with something we talked about earlier, which is it's just reality, right?
Seeing and accepting reality as it is.
People have emotions.

(48:28):
Tell, I have a, you know, a fear of freedom, sorry, a fear of success.
You might not.
Let's get to know each other and accept that reality, right?
Loving oneself, really knowing and accepting and celebrating and loving oneself.
You know what?
I'm incredible in a crisis.
I'm great at big ideas.

(48:49):
I am terrible at maintenance.
I'm probably the only guy you've had on a show that lost money on a 1965 Lincoln Continental
convertible black on black.
Okay?
Because I'm terrible at maintenance, right?
But I know that.
So I have a team and surround myself with a team that's really good at maintenance, right?
The other one is to understand your limiting beliefs, right?
There's a series of steps that one can go through and we've gone through and we take

(49:13):
every new employee through, every new team member through that sort of gets to a place
where we free ourselves from, it's impossible to free from everything, but a lot of this
garbage and traps and beliefs that we have to get to a place where we can make better
decisions and frankly, I believe make more money, you know, make a bigger impact and

(49:38):
tell you nailed it to be better people.
And so if we, our goal is to be building a multi-billion dollar asset management firm
anchored on social impact, health and wellness, and making people, giving people an opportunity
to become the best version of themselves, fulfilling their true potential, the entrepreneurs,

(49:59):
the investors, our team.
And I believe that it's freedom first.
That delivers success and it also delivers the freedom that you want in the end, right?
So you know, a house burns, a business burns, you can decide, do I want to get back to this
or do I want to move them out?
Right?
Do I want to be in this relationship or do I not?

(50:20):
Right?
And if I'm in, I'm all in.
Nice.
I'm all in.
Nice.
Quick question.
You're the ground force capital when it, I know you mentioned before that focuses on
mission-driven brands.
You also mentioned Liquid Death.
Is that one of the brands?
It is.
So we had a, one of our past guests is a gentleman by the name of Bill Harper.

(50:44):
And he is a, like a marketing guru.
He's a gentleman that I met in college back in the old days at Marquette.
And he is, he loves Liquid Death.
Like he uses that as one of the clear shining examples of what good marketing is.
And so I will just tell you that you already have a fan from a previous person on the show.

(51:10):
Did you hear of it?
Yeah.
Oh no, it's awesome.
So when, when you're looking at focus, I'm sorry, mission-driven brands, what kind of
companies do you tend to seek to partner with?
What excites you about those?
And then also I got a question about high hanging fruit, but let's, let's start there.
Sure.
Well, first of all, PJ, somehow I missed this.

(51:31):
I'm a Marquette guy.
You are?
Yeah.
I knew you were good looking and intelligent.
There we go.
That's funny.
Yeah.
You went to the, I had that taken out of the bio because I didn't want you to wax poetic
for fun.
Oh my gosh.
Let's go there.
So he also went to Duke, by the way, as an MBA from Duke.
Well, we'll forgive him for that.

(51:53):
Everything I learned in life, I learned at Marquette.
Oh, bad.
Oh my gosh.
All right.
We'll have to figure out what years you were there.
What do we look for?
So, you know, look, while we care about impact, I have no doubt.
We care about making money and we are a return first-driven firm.
There are some firms that are so focused on impact, they don't care if the companies,

(52:14):
frankly, make money in this lifetime.
We want to make money and we believe that that helps fuel the system.
So what we look for is a combination of things.
First of all, we're comfortable, first of all, broadly speaking, health and wellness
and sustainability.
And so there's some loose definitions there and we're not very dogmatic.
We used to be quite much more dogmatic when we were called a power plant.

(52:38):
We invested in only plant-based businesses.
We have left that in the past.
We felt free to change and have focused more broadly on that concept of impact.
We're very comfortable with the idea of incrementality.
So it doesn't have to be that the company's everything's organic and perfect and fair
trade and zero calorie and da-da-da-da.

(52:59):
Incrementality is fine.
And so broadly speaking, it's healthier products, more sustainably produced.
Liquid death is an interesting example, right?
Because hey, it's just water.
It's in can.
One could argue, okay, cans are a little bit more environmentally friendly than PET.
There's some truth to that.
Of course, cans take natural resources and those have an environmental footprint.

(53:23):
But what really excited us about liquid death was when we learned early on how many people
were...
One of the core insights that Mike Cesari, the founder had was how many people led what
one might call an alternative life.
Tatted up, listened to heavy metal music, in the skateboard, in your outdoor sports,

(53:46):
whatever it is.
Just not kind of typical mainstream.
That they don't necessarily drink or alcohol or want to drink energy drinks, Red Bull or
Monster.
And so, but yet that audience cares very much about brands and what they carry around.
And so they wouldn't be cut dead with a Fiji or a Dasani.
They don't represent their lifestyle, right?

(54:07):
So the big insight for him was there's a lot of people that just want to drink water, but
they want to drink it in a way that...
They want to drink a good clean water and they want to drink it in a way that represents
their lifestyle, that's different than other people's lifestyle.
And that to me, the brilliance of that is, first of all, we believe and we is in fact
building an extraordinarily successful business.

(54:30):
If you look at that, the number of kids today that are drinking...
I don't have firm data on this, right?
So don't quote me on the exact data today.
But when we invested, we looked early on, they had a really compelling audience of young
people that were drinking liquid death that might've been Red Bull, Monster, Coke, Pepsi,

(54:54):
other high sugar, high calorie consumers, right?
And what it took for them to get there, look, Zika was a pretty big business, right?
We're not going to be near the size that liquid death is going to be because they made it
cool.
They made it fun.
They made it intriguing.
They made it humorous.
And so not only do we think that's a good impact in terms of getting people a little

(55:16):
bit off of sugar, a little bit off of high calorie drinks into this, a little bit off
of plastic into aluminum.
But really there's the learning that you can use sophisticated, cool, fun, edgy marketing
to have a covert message, right?
It's only water and it's cans versus P&T.

(55:36):
So let's care about cans, right?
They had a porn star talk about how she hates plastic, right?
But it's a fun way of bringing a message to life.
How many kids are really thinking about climate change all of a sudden if they're laughing
about it a little bit, maybe they pay a little bit more attention.
Oh, that's great.

(55:56):
The first time I ever saw it, I go to a lot of concerts and I go to a lot of metal concerts
and it was at a metal concert was the first time I saw liquid death, which was so funny.
I was like, what beer is this?
Oh, it's not beer.
It's water.
And I need it.
It's wonderful.
All right.
So thank you.
Thank you for sharing all that.
Sure.
High hanging fruit encourages entrepreneurs to aim for possibilities or opportunities

(56:20):
that they might shy away from.
Can you kind of go into that a little bit and like, you know, what represents that in
your story?
Yeah.
Well, I think for me, writing that book, kind of like this podcast right now, After the
Fires, for me, I processed writing, I processed speaking, I processed this way.

(56:41):
So this is helping me actually make sense of all this.
So when I got through my journey, I feel like I got through by the skin of my teeth.
I felt like it was, and I really do understand now how statistically improbable any positive
outcome is, right?
A thousand beverage brands launch a year, over a decade, it's 10,000 brands.

(57:02):
Coke has bought five in the last five, 10 years.
It's so improbable that when I got done with that, and it was a wild ride.
Particularly from a kid from Pittsburgh that went to Marquette, I had no business background
in my family at all.
So I feel like I was trying to make sense of it.

(57:22):
And I did have the goal of making an impact, health and wellness, and bringing this, you
know, as basically a waste product and creating a business around it.
And I know there's a lot of entrepreneurs that sort of set out on that goal, make an
impact, you know, make a lot of money and, you know, build something significant.
So I wanted to try to give, and I'd read a ton of business books, I wanted to try to

(57:43):
give some real life insight.
What's it really like?
What are the stories from the front lines?
Why was fresh, you know?
So it wasn't so much, you know, am I inspiring people to do it?
If anything, I think there was in some ways a cautionary tale, like be damn sure you want
to dedicate a decade of your life to this because it's probably not going to work out,

(58:06):
you know what I mean?
But along the way, I wanted to at least give some ideas, hey, this is what worked for me.
This is what didn't work for me.
And figuring people on their own journey can use that however they see fit.
But yeah, they come up with a fun name, like the idea of trying to build towards something
bigger and better.
And that came up with a high hanging fruit.

(58:29):
And now you're writing a new book.
And you know, as PJ said in the introduction, this book is about this concept of an entrepreneur's
guide to freedom.
I believe that that's the name of the book or that's the working name for the book.
That's the working name.
And you know, if you could advise an entrepreneur that maybe is feeling trapped a little bit
or they're just struggling to find their freedom, what is one thing that someone who is feeling

(58:54):
trapped could do to start reclaiming their sense of freedom?
Since you use that word, the first thing I would say is tell me more about the feeling.
Let's explore the feeling, go into it.
What does it feel like?
Where does it live?
What does it look like?
What are the roots?

(59:14):
Play out the worst case scenario.
Play it all the way out.
Because what I find is there's actually a lot more fear about the fear than there actually
is fear.
Does that make sense?
It's like, we're so afraid to go into this and talk about it.
It creates this mystique that in my experience creates the biggest barrier of anything.

(59:38):
And when we go into it and you actually run out the whole scenario, all right, let's assume
this you lose this account.
Let's assume you don't get this funding in.
Let's assume, tell me about that.
Without minimizing it at all, play it all the way out.
So the catch phrase for that is feel all the feelings.

(59:58):
Go there.
And it's amazing how hard that is because it's actually a skill like any other.
I remember in an early couples counting therapy session, my ex-wife and I had, the therapist
said, we kept saying something like, oh, I don't want her to feel that way.
She would say to me, oh, I don't want him to feel that way.

(01:00:19):
And the therapist said, oh, okay, I get it.
You don't want each other to feel the way you feel.
Well, let me tell you how feelings work.
They're just there.
They're not right, they're wrong.
They pass like clouds in the sky unless you attach onto them that you shouldn't have.
Right?
So there are, there are a number of steps and number of tools that I'm going to share
that I've learned and used and we use with our firm.

(01:00:42):
But the first one is feel the feelings, feel them all, feel them all the way.
All right.
Well, let's, let's get into, let's briefly get into feelings.
I don't want to dig too much.
I've already shared a tremendous amount about everything you're going through just today
in this last week, which has been harrowing.

(01:01:05):
You have mentioned this in the past that you've, you've dealt with some demons that you've
had to work through.
Clearly those demons have had their butts kicked.
So congratulations on that.
For now.
That's not an easy, that's, that's not an easy, nor is it ever completely done battle.
So you've, you've shared a lot.

(01:01:32):
What about, tell us about facing those challenges.
How did that shape the way that you approach business and life in general?
Wow.
And, and if you define maybe, maybe start with a little bit, you know, you talked about
chasing shiny objects and your marriage breaking down and some, some addiction.

(01:01:52):
I think it'd be great if you're willing to be open for you to share a little bit about
what the demons were.
Yeah.
Look, I'll, I'll share, I'll share wine.
I'll go right in the belly of the beast.
And especially PJ will know this from Marquette era, alcohol.
Oh, right.
Like, you know, when I, when I think back now on how much meaning alcohol had in my

(01:02:16):
life, it was associated, really coming out of Marquette, right?
I associated with it when you're, when you're feeling great, you drink, right?
Celebrate, you go out to the bars, you know, if you're, if you're, you know, fortunate
enough and you can afford it in the morning, man, nothing like a champagne brunch in the
morning, right?
Celebrate life.

(01:02:36):
Life is good, right?
A couple beers at lunch, you're out on the boat with some buddies and you know what?
When shit gets tough, you gotta go out for a beer, man.
You gotta have a, you gotta have a drink, right?
And the better you are in life, you get to be proud about that.
What kind of beer you're drinking, what kind of wine are you ordering?
What kind of scotch do you have?
What kind of tequila you're ordering?
Man, I had it down.

(01:02:57):
I knew I'd order all the best drinks and order this and it'd show up and make sure,
you know, it was part of my identity.
It was part of my life.
And there's nothing wrong with it, right?
It's a choice we make.
But what I realized is for me, it became unconscious.
It became my default.
I associated it with good times, bad times and everything in between.

(01:03:19):
And the reality is, you know, when I look back, hey, it served me well.
I did what I needed to get through, but I don't have a problem admitting I was a high-functioning
alcoholic.
I never had to go to AA.
It never destroyed my life.
But holy cow, by any definition of what clinicians would call alcoholism, I was it as are 80%

(01:03:40):
of the people I went to college with and done business with for the last 20 years, right?
And so what helped me is just to begin to accept it, not criticize it, not blame it,
not try to change it.
Understand it, accept it, forgive myself, understand.
Yeah, yeah, I can remember growing up and seeing this and thinking this.

(01:04:03):
I can remember in Marquette seeing this and thinking that.
I can remember the first dinners out and seeing the boss order a nice bottle of wine and what
kind of message that sent, right?
Beautiful, wonderful, and unconscious influences that restricted my freedom.
Because the reality is not many people can, but I'm one of them.
I can't in my 50s, and I probably shouldn't have in my 40s, function drinking during the

(01:04:28):
week, right?
But I did, right?
Now it's taken me almost six years of work to get to the point where I can still drink.
I'll still enjoy a glass of wine.
Every once in a while I'll have a nice tequila or something like that.
But the reality is I do very little, and I haven't for weeks, and I have no intention

(01:04:51):
of any time soon until I kind of get through this period of time.
Because I know this is the period of time where I'd love to, you know, I noted the house
that somebody gave me.
They got some, I took note, they got some good tequila in the freezer.
But I have my, what I know, I know myself, I need alternatives.
That's one of the reasons we invested in an alternative, a non-alcoholic beer.

(01:05:12):
I have alternative cocktails I mix.
I need that ritual.
I need that habit, right?
So that was, I would absolutely call that a demon that, you know, frankly was, was taken
a toll on my life.
And it's taken me a long time to wrestle that one to the ground.
Yeah.
Todd, I don't know if you know this, but Marquette offers double majors to everyone who goes there.

(01:05:35):
One is whatever you went there for, and the other one is a focus on alcohol.
So that is these demons that he's talking about, this lifestyle that he's talking about.
And I'm sure it's not just Marquette, obviously.
That's college, right?
Binge drinking.
It's well beyond college.
It's country, it's our culture.
I was just going to say, you know, we are a culture and I'm not saying it for good or

(01:05:58):
bad.
I think that in general, I'm a huge fan of the word moderation.
I, it is hard to find things in life.
There are a couple I can think of.
I'll just leave them to your imagination.
That should not be done in moderation.
Everything else should be done in moderation.
And if you're not, if you're E moderate, the risk you run is it's going to bite you in

(01:06:23):
the ass, whether it's you're going to get sick, you're going to do something stupid.
Something fundamental will change that will be not fixable, whether your marriage will
break down, you will cause yourself or people you care about harm, right?
Whether it's alcohol or any other demon.

(01:06:45):
If you're out there and you're listening to us and you know that you're doing a little
bit too much of anything, think about how you might be able to bring that back towards
a more moderate place.
And you know what?
If we did nothing on this podcast and I think this particular episode is just jam packed
with incredible, useful insights about life, not just about business, business too, but

(01:07:07):
life.
But if we, you walked away from this and all you remembered is, you know, I'm going to
be a little bit more moderate about by whatever it is that your demons are or whatever are
the things in your life that you believe you need to be more moderate about.
That's a hell of an accomplishment for us.
I think so too Tao, and I appreciate you raising that.
It's in the one thing if I can add one thing would be first of all, get help when you need

(01:07:30):
it.
But if you're going to look at it yourself, start with love and compassion for yourself.
Hey, you know, you did what you need to do.
You got there.
Understand it, have some compassion, start with that because it's hard to break these
habits without, I think some love and compassion.
And I started to just accept, hey man, serve me well, you know, I had a great time.

(01:07:54):
I wasn't ready.
I wasn't ready.
That's okay.
Now I'm ready.
Yeah.
I mean, there's a book that I came across this year called The Mastery of Self by Don
Miguel Ruiz Jr.
It's a short book.
It's about 135, 140 pages.
One of the most impactful books I've ever read.
And it talks about the fact that a lot of what we do are things that are taught to us very

(01:08:18):
early in life.
And we are at that point conditioned to believe certain things are supposed to be a certain
way.
And even after we are no longer under someone's yoke, a lot of the times we are doing it to
ourselves because we continue to believe that certain things are a certain kind of way.
And indeed the path to freedom and the mastery of self starts with love.

(01:08:39):
It starts with love.
This is not the first time people that listen to this podcast know I speak about love openly.
I think it's the word that is the root to most good things.
And it starts with self love.
It starts with being forgiving to yourself and accepting that whatever journey you've
had, it has led you here to a place where hopefully you're able to choose and the word

(01:09:04):
choice is really critical.
You're able to choose to live a better life that brings you closer to your own endgame,
whatever that is, whatever it is you aspire for, whatever it is you want to be, whether
that's as a professional, as a mom, as a dad, as a human being.
That moment where you recognize where you are and start moving towards where you want

(01:09:30):
to be, that's a great moment.
It's a moment that you should be incredibly proud and not beat yourself up for having
not gotten there yet.
Many people live and die and never get there.
You nailed it, Tal, and I'll build on that and say exactly what you said at the end,
which is this is a way to get more of what you want, whatever it is.

(01:09:52):
And if that's money and business success, then that is it.
That's the fallacy I want to break.
If you think you're going to make all the money and then deal with this stuff later,
it doesn't work that way.
If anything, dealing with this stuff now, facing these demons, facing these fears, going
after freedom now, in my experience, delivers more success, more money, more success, better

(01:10:18):
relationships and it doesn't guarantee it, but it dramatically improves the probability
of a good outcome.
And guess what?
Along the way, you get to enjoy it and probably a healthier, better place to enjoy it in the
end anyway.
Yeah.
It's a gift of focus and grace to yourself.
Absolutely.

(01:10:38):
Absolutely.
And you know what?
When you think about the fact that I need to wind it down, we are well past and I'm
getting a bunch of end it signals, not because it's not been an incredible conversation where
we left about two thirds of our questions on the cutting room floor.
But to those of you listening, I just want to remind you where we started this episode.

(01:11:02):
Mark lost his home within the last week and everything in it, it burned down.
Think about that as you reflect on what you heard from this man today and ask yourself
with whatever you're dealing with in your life, which is certainly, unless you are in
Southern California right now, something short of having your home just burned down.

(01:11:23):
How can you deal with your life with the same degree of grace and calm and enthusiasm that
you heard from Mark?
It is not an accident.
It is not a coincidence that this man has done as well as he has.
It is because of the way he's choosing to live his life.
Our guest today, Mark, how do you say your last name?

(01:11:45):
Rampola.
Rampola.
Mark, of course, Rampolo, Rampola, Mark Rampola, an incredible guy, an incredible entrepreneur.
I feel really privileged to have spent about an hour and 15 minutes with you today.
And I am sure that whatever you touch as you continue going forward will turn to gold.

(01:12:08):
And I'm so grateful that you chose to spend some time with us.
Good speed to you, to your family, hopefully, whatever the next chapter is for you in terms
of where you live and what it means, it's the best chapter and is exactly where you're
supposed to be.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Mark, just so you know, I've taken to calling Marquette University the Ivy League of the

(01:12:31):
Great Lakes.
So, because my wife actually went to the Ivy League.
So I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to prop ourselves up there.
So spread the word, buddy.
I will.
Thank you, bud.
I really enjoyed the conversation.
I really enjoyed it.
I learned, I learned a lot, including more about myself even today.
And then our job is done.
Thank you so much.

(01:12:51):
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you.
And that's a wrap, folks.
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(01:13:16):
Thanks for being a part of our production and we'll see you next time on the Braving
Business Podcast.