November 11, 2025 • 39 mins
This special Veterans Day edition of Evening With A Legend features 91-year-old William S. Jackson. Jackson, a co-founder of the Society of Automotive Historians (SAH), recounts his storied career from a draftee in the Cold War to racing at the 1958 Le Mans Retrospective. The episode explores Jackson's transition from struggling college student to influential motorsport figure, highlighting his time in the military, racing experiences, and profound friendship with German race photographer Ernst Char. Jackson shares vivid memories of racing vintage cars, including his 1935 BMW, and navigating through historical events, culminating in his reflection on how these experiences shaped his life.
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00:00 Meet William S. Jackson 02:06 Bill's Early Life and Military Draft 03:08 Cold War Soldier Stories 06:22 Racing Beginnings in the USA 10:58 Racing Adventures in Europe & Finding Peace in Germany 19:09 The Search for a Bugatti 20:37 The Vintage German Car Dilemma ... Restoring the BMW 22:22 Racing Aspirations in Europe 25:00 The Le Mans Retrospective Opportunity; Experiencing Le Mans 32:49 Reflections on Racing and Life 35:47 Concluding Thoughts and Legacy====================
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Evening With a Legend is a seriesof presentations exclusive to
legends of the famous 24 hours ofLe Mans giving us an opportunity
to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
By sharing stories and highlightsof the big event, you get a chance
to become part of the Legend ofLe Mans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
(00:34):
Tonight we have an opportunity to bringa piece of Le Mans to you sharing in the
Legend of Le Mans with guests from differenteras of over 100 years of racing.
And as your host, I'm delighted tointroduce 91-year-old William S.
Jackson, one of the co-founders ofthe Society of Automotive Historians,
who isn't just a veteran of motorsports from being drafted during the
(00:55):
Cold War to racing alongside legendslike Carol Shelby and Sterling Moss.
Bill's journey to LeMans is a tale ofgrit, ingenuity, and unexpected grace.
Today we're taking you back to1958 to a time when racing was raw,
personal, and deeply intertwinedwith the world's shifting tides.
You'll hear how a flunked collegecareer turned into a military path
(01:16):
that led him to Germany, where achance friendship with a former
Lifa pilot changed his view of war.
Peace and humanity, and you'll rideshotgun as Bill recounts his time
behind the wheel of a 1935 BMW three 15restored with reverence and raced with
heart on the hallowed grounds of Le Mans.
And with that, I'm your host Kru ChiefErick from the Motoring Podcast Network,
(01:36):
welcoming everyone to this very specialVeteran's Day evening with a legend.
Alright, bill, so we're gonna talkabout your experience at Le Mans.
A very special experienceat Le Mans 1958, right?
So that's Le Mans retrospective.
A lot of our members probablydon't even know what that is.
(01:56):
And so to lay that out, it's a precursorto what we know today as the Le Mans Classic.
So let's talk about your journey.
Getting to Europe, your road to Le Mans.
Okay.
Well you know, it's kindof an interesting story.
I was a Cold War soldier and not manypeople know much about what it was like
being a draftee during the Cold War years.
And this is a kind of ahumorous personal story.
(02:20):
I'd flunked out of industrial engineeringinto business management and that
flunk out of business management.
'cause I was racing sports cars.
I was leaving Thursday nightand getting back Sunday night
and that just didn't work well.
The assistant dean of the Collegeof Business called me in and just
chewed me up one side and downthe other Bill, you're not stupid.
(02:41):
You're racing those damn cars and you'renot applying yourself, and you could
succeed if you just get away from that.
And he said, you're outta here now.
And he said, I'm sure the draftis going to get you pretty soon.
And he said, but after you're in andout of the army, if you've decided
what you want to do with your life,I'll get you back into Penn State.
If you could show me something.
And as I'm getting ready to go outof his office, I'm thinking, does
(03:04):
he do this with every student?
Flunking out?
Anyway, I, I was drafted roughly,uh, June of, uh, 1957, sent to
Fort Riley, Kansas as a memberof the first Infantry division.
I was a graduate of Valley Ford'sMilitary Academy, so I wouldn't say
that basic training was easy, but Ialready knew how to play the game.
(03:27):
What that got me is I ended up beingnamed Outstanding trainee of the
first division for the year of 1957.
After we had a two week vacation afterbasic training and came back to start
advanced infantry training, right.
My company commander called mein the office and he gave me
a master sergeant's armband.
And he said, you are to wear this andon base you are a master sergeant and
(03:52):
you are assistant platoon leader forthe fourth platoon, which was 44 men.
And I'm just coming out of basictraining and I all of a sudden,
bam, I'm an acting master sergeantwith a responsibility for 44 guys.
We went out on a wintermaneuver in December.
We were supposed to be out for three days.
What they called in Kansas, a bluenortherner blew in it, dropped
(04:15):
to about 20 above with wind.
They canceled the operation, butthey couldn't get us trucks out
to pick us up till the next day.
So the company commander says toeach of us platoon leaders, you
take care of your guys tonight andwhen we'll get outta here tomorrow.
Well, most of the platoonsbuilt a gigantic bonfire and
gathered around it and cookedtheir front and froze their rear.
(04:36):
I took my guys down into a dry streambed and we dug fire pits into the
sides of the stream outta the wind.
I had them put their pup tents up.
Two pegs high instead of three pegs high.
So they would cut the wind andas per usual, put dirt around the
edges so it wouldn't blow away.
Fill 'em full of buffalo grass andthen get their sleeping bags out.
(04:59):
And I went around and checked every oneof 'em to be sure they took their boots
off where they got into the sleeping bags.
Well, the first Sergeant comes around,Jackson, what is all this non reg stuff?
You are not allowed to do this.
Put those tents upproperly and yes, sergeant.
As soon as he left, I told the guys, Isaid, just leave everything the way it is.
Well, the next morning the colonelof the regiment comes around with the
(05:22):
company commander and the first sergeant.
They suffered 11% frostbite.
They came down into tothe sunken Stream bed.
My guys are gathered around thefire pits in the side of the stream
and, and, uh, they'd all had a goodnight's sleep and I hadn't lost a man.
Colonel looks around.
Says, who's in charge here?
And the first Sergeant is smiling.
(05:43):
You know, he says he is.
So I'm standing there at attention and thecolonel says, Sergeant, what is all this?
Where'd you learn to do this?
Boy Scout Troop seven Clearfield,Pennsylvania, sir. Got a big grid on
his face that says, carry on Sergeant.
And they went away.
And the first Sergeant is kindof behind him going, credible.
(06:06):
But, uh, anyway, that was one of the mostinteresting experiences I had as a platoon
sergeant right out of basic trading.
Well, I, when I went over to Germany,of course I was back as a PFC.
Again, I went over, I thinkprobably been September or
October or something like that.
So before you got deployed in Germany,you were racing here in the States?
(06:27):
Oh yeah.
My very first event was the Breakneck Hillclimb outside of Cumberland, Maryland.
Because I had just finished my 21 hoursof observed practice and were required to
get your SECA license and they liked youto run two or three hill climbs before
they cut you loose for road racing.
So I started racing with a54 Jag xk, one 20 modified
(06:48):
Roadster, and it was soft sprung.
You know, you could bottom out andtake out $300 worth of mufflers.
So I had made a set of straight pipes,came out under the driver's door.
So, like I say, thisis my very first event.
I'm under the car puttingthe straight pipes on.
Somebody starts kicking my foot.
I look out from underneath and I seethe bottom of farmer bib overalls.
(07:09):
Thought some stupid farmer's goingto ask me a bunch of dumb questions.
So I yelled out from under thecar, what the hell do you want?
And there's silence.
And then he all got, if Jack, having livedin Texas, I recognized that the accent.
And I'm thinking, there'sthis guy from Texas that had
been racing on the west coast.
They said it's coming east.
That races in farmer bioveralls named Carol Shelby.
(07:32):
So I rolled out from under mycar and sure as hell, it's Carol.
Yes, Mr. Shelby.
I have a jack.
He was driving for some millionaire whohad bought one of the last front engine
Ferrari Grand Prix cars and hired Carol todrive it and they was going after the SECA
unlimited Class Hill Climb Championship.
So.
(07:52):
I go with Carol up to the Ferrari pitand Eric sits with a flat left rear
trier and somebody forgot the jack.
Anyway, that was the beginning of,of a relationship with Carol 'cause
he had come east and was runningsome of the same courses I was
back up to, to, uh, January 57th.
(08:13):
Driven for the Morgan Factory team.
I they read in the springsprints at Upper Marlborough.
The AC Bristol Importers had run abig article in the Washington Post.
That they were coming to Upper Marlboroughfor the SCCA spring sprints, and they were
gonna show the locals how it was done.
So long story short, I beat the topAC Bristol driver for new production
(08:35):
in the spring sprints at Mar Gra.
So afterwards, I'm down in the pits,we ru run what you brung, and I'm
putting a windshield back on andtaking the racing screen off and all.
And these two suits commit coats andties and they walk up to my Morgan.
Bag over the hood.
The guy said, is this belong to you?
And I said, yes.
(08:55):
He said, if you can be ourtop driver with this piece of
shit, you gotta drive for us.
How'd you like to go to br?
Well, ACS plan was to have four carsat Seabring, but they only gave him
three interest, so I ended up as arelief driver of the other three.
I'll be honest with you,I never got in the race.
Mm. I got to practice, youknow, I was on a track with Mike
(09:17):
Hawthorne and Sterling Moss.
Juan fgi and I mean, but you stillhad to get your license, right?
That's where I got my license.
You had to have an FIAlicense to run sibr.
And I had got, you know, real quick,I mean I had about a month and a half.
I got my FIA licensebased on my SECA license.
For a US race you needan international license.
Yeah, you had to have theinternational license.
(09:37):
'cause apparently Sebring wason the international calendar.
But anyway, fast forward,Sebring, Carol Shelby and Roy
Salvador, the British driver aredriving a Maserati for the fact.
And they did something 62laps in and were disqualified.
So Carol is just walking the pits andhe comes over the AC Bristol pit and our
(09:59):
practice car, which I ended up buyingfrom the factory incidentally for $3,500
is sitting in the back of the pits.
And Carol says, bill, would youmind opening that hood and Annette,
and let me look in that engine bay.
So I go back and, you know.
I put the stick in it to hold itup, and he's back there for about
(10:21):
20 minutes practically climbing intothe engine bay in that AC Bristol.
So I finally, I went back just to seewhat he's doing, you know, and he, he's
checking out the front suspension andthe steering and everything, and he said,
man, you could fit a big American V eightin here and you'd really have something.
This is March, 1957, first Cobra of 64.
(10:42):
He was thinking about iteven then, and of course.
AC Bristol quit making engines.
So they're sitting there with thatbeautiful Roadster with nothing in it.
And Carol had already been talkingto Fort and he brought 'em together
and, and voila, we had the Cobra.
But, uh, I was side to company a of theEighth Infantry Regiment of the eighth
(11:04):
Infantry Division in Mikes Heim, Germany.
Our mission, we had pre-planned positionsin the folded gap for World War ii.
It's where the Germans came through,uh, when they attacked France.
And our mission was if, as we called it,if the balloon never went up, then the
East Germans and the Russians came across.
We were to dig in and hold in thosepre-planned positions for two hours
(11:26):
till they got reinforcements up.
Initially, I was a BAR man, but then whenthe company commander found out about what
I had done in basic and advanced infantrytraining, I became company guide, what
they call a Pathfinder now, and I used torun patrols up near the East German board.
Even right up at the border, they, they,uh, I don't know whether it was these
Germans or the Russians that built 'em,but they had built some guard towers.
(11:50):
I even got close enough one day to waveat the Russians up in the guard tower.
One of our maneuvers or trainingwas a live fire exercise at a, uh,
what had been a German SS trainingcamp in World War II at Wild Flick.
At.
I'm company guide.
The range Officer brings me aside andhe hands me full tracer ammunition and
(12:14):
he says, private, I want you to go downthe hill, cross that little stream,
start up that hill, and when I blow mywhistle, once you hit the ground and
start firing with your tracer ammo,it was an old German World War II
pill box up on top of the hill, and Iwas the direct fire at that pill box.
And he said The company will thenbe firing and advancing by platoon.
(12:34):
And when they get up to you, youfall in with 'em and going up
the end, top of the hill, andthat'll be the end of the exercise.
So I go down the hill, cross thecreek, start up the hill, he blows
his whistle, I hit the ground, I startfiring, and then all hell breaks loose
over my head as they start advancingby platoon, live fire, live ammo.
(12:55):
Anyway, they come down across thecreek, start up the hill, and.
All of a sudden I recognizedthe BAR being fired at me.
'cause they do sound different.
I rolled over and looked off to myleft and here they're coming at me.
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
And I just, I froze and he put theclip through it 10 feet from me.
(13:15):
Story was, he didn't do anything wrong.
Even matter of fact, he was doingeverything right, clutched his
BAR heart into his side and lookedahead to watch where he was firing.
And stepped in a rabbit hole and destroyedhis knee and went down and locked on
the trigger and had it pointed at me.
Well, I went looking for a desk job.
Fortunately, my best buddy from basictraining was in regimental headquarters.
(13:38):
He was able to get me a job inPIO, public Information Office.
Writing hometown news releases.
Johnny Jones is in Mines Germany,driving into two and a half
ton truck, da, da da da da.
Sending him the hometown papers.
But we had a lot of sports teams,you know, to keep us active
and keep us out of the bars.
(13:58):
And had, having been sports editor,my paper at Valley Forge, I started
writing sports stories for theeighth division newspaper, the Arrow.
I got a call about two monthslater from a major Grady.
Who was head of the eighth Divisionnewspaper and he said, private Jackson.
He said, I like what you've been doing.
I just lost my sports editor.
(14:18):
Would you be interested in a job transferto division headquarters, general Smith?
No kp, no guard duty,weekend pass every weekend.
Oh, I don't want that job.
So I became sports editor ofthe eighth Division's newspaper.
Well, while all this was going on.
My hope was when I went to Germanyto find a Bugatti and bring it home.
(14:44):
Well, I had no idea how to go about it.
You know, I didn't speak German,but shortly after I got there,
inexpensive, 35 millimetercameras were just coming in and.
They made arrangements through JohnGutenberg University and Mines, and
they sent a photojournalism profout to the base to teach us film
speed, F setting shutter speed.
(15:06):
We had to know all that and taughtus how and as as we were buying
through the PX at the time, mostlyEast German 35 millimeter cameras.
And then they carried it a stepfurther and built a dark room, and
he taught us how to develop, filmand make prints well in conversation,
we discovered he was a car guy.
Ernst Char was this man's name.
(15:28):
He had raced Formula two right afterthe war with a BMW 3 28 based car.
I, I don't think it was aVeritas, it was a special.
Anyway, he was also a racephotographer for the Frankfurter ung
and the Rhine Zeitung newspapers.
I became his gungadin.
(15:48):
I started carrying hiscamera bags to the races.
Grand Pia Holland, grandPrix Europe in Belgium.
I mean, just, I got to go to up tothe thousand Kilometers and Berg ert.
Well, among other things, hebecame my chairman editor when
I was editor of Anti Automobile.
Anyway.
When I went to Germany in the Army, Ihated every German that walked the earth
(16:08):
'cause my father is buried in Belgium.
He was killed February 23rd, 45 as aninfantry man crossing the rural ROER River
in Germany to a capture town of Duren.
When I met and got to know Earnst,you know, he pretty soon picked up
my story and he was a really sharpguy and he started diffusing me.
(16:30):
You know, we would go somewhere and hewould say, oh, you see that over here?
Well, you know, that was the townchurch that you guys came in and just
bombed it flat, you know, I mean, theone that I remember most, we were going
to a race and we were on the Audubon.
You know, there were no rest stops in theAudubon, but the Germans were very casual,
so we just had stopped to get out and pee.
(16:50):
And I looked down in this valley andthere's the remains of a village,
pretty obviously unoccupied.
And I said to Ernst, I said, Iwonder what story is there, why that?
And he says, I'll tellyou what the story is.
I mean, he had verycarefully planned this.
He said the American infantry wascoming up that valley, and he said this.
This was near the end of the war.
(17:10):
At that point in time, the American Armyand the Army Air Corps had worked out
where the ground units had a ground airradio, and there were media bombers just
flying around waiting for assignments.
Anyway, this infantry unitstarted taking artillery fire.
And they thought the spotterwas in the steeple of the
(17:32):
church in this little village.
So they called in media bombersand they flattened this town.
You know, T is telling me this storysaid that when the infantry unit
occupied the town, there was noartillery spotter in the church steeple.
And I said, you certainly seemto know a lot about this earth.
And he said, yes, my grandfatherwas one of the ones that was killed.
(17:55):
But he very carefully did this.
And diffused me.
I mean, I came home at peace, but thething that was the biggest shocker with
Ernst, after he got to know me aboutsix months, he invited me over to his
house and I walked into his living roomand framed over the fireplace, the dual
controls, out of some kind of an airplane.
(18:16):
And I said, Ernest, what?
What is that?
That's the dashboardout of a B 24 liberator.
I said, where the hell did you get that?
He said, I shot it down.
He said, as a matter of fact,I shot down five of them.
He says, bill, I flew a FalkWolf one 90 in the Li wfa.
I hated Hitler.
I hated the Nazis for whatthey've done to our country.
But if you said anything againstthem, they took you out and shot you.
(18:39):
And he says, but Bill, I am a German andyou were kicking hell out of my country.
'cause you know what he had showed me.
Was where we had unnecessarilykilled civilians.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I mean it's justlike the Russians now Yeah.
In Ukraine.
And he said, so he said, pleasedon't ask me to apologize.
And I got it.
(19:00):
And like I say, I came home in peace.
I thought about it in retrospect.
I became the son.
He wished he'd had ERsand I really bonded.
I had told him about wanting to Bugatti.
Well, he knew his way around.
And then we found two Bugattisin a bombed out garage in V spot
at the end of a bombed out alley.
(19:21):
We couldn't find out who owned them,and Ernst said, bill, we're gonna hack
our way in that alley and hack our wayinto that garage, and somebody's gonna
show up and say thank you very much.
He said, let's keep looking.
So it wasn't too long after thatthat he said, I found a car for you.
I said, what is it, Bugatti?
No, it's not a Bugatti.
What is it?
Well, you've gotta see it.
(19:42):
So we went down into the old part of M'Sto an old home and to the horse stable
in the back and in the horse stable.
And he whips the tar poleoff that beautiful 35 BMW,
which I knew nothing about.
I wasn't up to speed on.
Vintage BMWs, so he told me about the car.
It had originally been delivered tohelm, HELM, Kler, K-L-O-C-K-L-A-R,
(20:07):
the main BMW dealer in Frankfurt in1935, and he had hill climbed with it.
Ernst and I, we were told that hehad won the 1500 cc German Hill
Climb Championship in 35 with it.
BMW would not verify this.
Hel clerk was a Nazi and theywould not talk about anything
Nazis did with their cars.
(20:28):
So whether it's true or not, I don't know.
But anyway, I said to Ernst,'cause I said, who owns this?
And he says, I do.
I said, you know, we'vebeen looking for a car.
Why didn't you tell me you had this?
And he said, U gis.
He said, you come over here, you buythese vintage German cars, you run
'em into the ground and then you justgo home and leave them there to rot.
(20:48):
And he said, that can'thappen to this car.
But he said, he says, I've gottento know you and I'll sell it to you.
I had to pay $1,750 for it.
And he said, you can do this.
We'll do this one of two ways.
He says, you gimme $1,750 andyou can do it what you want.
He says, or you give me the 1,750,I'll keep 1400 and I'll use the rest
(21:12):
to restore it under my supervision.
'cause he wanted it doneright and he had the context.
Now, the one reason my car is onlyworth 120,000 instead of over 200,000,
like the two for sale in Germany is.
When they got the car to a garage,it had one of the earliest hurt
(21:33):
roller bearing crankshaft engines,and nobody knew how to work on that.
So what we did, we found a stock 35type three 15, and we took the lower
end, took everything from the head down.
And rebuilt that and put the racinghead with three carburetors on it.
So that's why, you know, mine does nothave the proper serial number on the
(21:56):
engine to go with the VIN number, butit's a little bit more of a hot rod.
Yeah, I mean, for apurist, that's a death.
No.
Was it difficult to find parts for anearly 30-year-old BMW at that point?
Not at that time.
There was a vintage BMW Club and ERT hadconnections there and we were able to get
enough parts to rebuild it, get it on aroad, and it became my everyday driver.
(22:19):
I mean, everybody in the eighthinfantry regiment knew my car.
You wanted a Bugatti because obviouslyit's racing pedigree is known around
the world, so was it always yourintent to go racing in Europe?
No, I figured my racing careerat least, was temporarily over
until I got out of the army.
But anyway, I'd gone to Europewith no plans really to race.
(22:41):
I mean, I had my AC Bristolat home in the garage.
I bought our practice card fromSeabring from the company afterwards,
and I had to pay $3,500 for it.
It's big money in the 1950s, but it wassitting at home in the garage, you know?
So I didn't have money to, you know,to really buy a exotic new race car.
But anyway, Ernst and I, we would takemy BMW and go to the races and that.
(23:05):
I've never forgotten.
We were going to the thousandkilometers up at the Nu Burn ring.
I was worried about parking that car justin the parking lot, but as we got close
to the Nu Burn ring, the police just keptmotioning me through right up to the race.
And when I got into the paddock.
There are at least a hundred Bugattis.
(23:25):
It was the annual gathering of the BugattiClubs of Europe and the Bugatti Club of
Deutsche Lawn was the host that year.
And of course, the police didn't know thedifference between A BMW and a Bugatti.
They just knew it was an old race car.
So I pulled into, into that paddockarea with all these Bugattis, you
(23:50):
know, and all these guys are looking.
And I got US forces plates on it andthey started to come over and look at it.
T was with me and of course,and I noticed three guys talking
with their heads together.
Then they came over, shook my hand andexplained to me in German with Ernst
Telling, you know, what they were saying.
(24:11):
And what they said was, we reallyappreciate your appreciation of a
German engineering of a car and.
In appreciation for what you have done.
We are making you a lifetime member of theBugatti Club of Delan, and they presented
me with a beautiful car badge, which ison the side of the hood of the BMW still.
(24:36):
So, I mean, that was one of the thrills Ihad with a. I joined the Hess E-H-E-S-S-E
Motor Sports Club, which was like sayingthe Pennsylvania Motor Sports Club.
Mm-hmm.
Did some not serious airport racing, butsome fun racing with the German guys.
You know, they really likedthe fact, again, that I had
(24:58):
had this work done on this car.
So how did you hear aboutthe Le Mans's retrospective?
I mean, was Le Mans's ever?
Well, with her connections, hecame to me and he said, bill.
How'd you like to run theLa Man's retrospective race?
I thought he meant the 24hour, and I said, I can't
run, run the BMW for 24 hours.
(25:18):
He said, no, no, no, no.
He says, the day before the 24hour, there's a one hour race
called the Le Mansn Retro Retrospectivefor cars that raced there prior
to World War ii, prior to 1939.
He says, your BMW qualifiesand I can get you an entry.
So PFC Jackson goes to his companycommander in the Eighth Infantry Company,
(25:40):
A of the Eighth Infantry Regiment.
And I said, I, everybody knew mycar on base Captain I, I said, I
have an opportunity to run my BMWin the La Man's retrospective race
to explain to him what it was.
And he said, Jackson,that's above my pay grade.
I can't give you permission to do that.
You're gonna have to go see the colonel.
So I go up to headquarters, the eighthinfantry regiment to the colonel's
(26:00):
office, and I go in and I. Make a samepresentation and he says the same thing
I, that's above my pay grade Jackson.
You're gonna have to go todivision headquarters and
talk to somebody up there.
So I drive up the division headquartersin Bud Krono bark in the general's
parking lot next to an Austin Healey.
(26:21):
Somebody's a car guy.
PFC Jackson just walks in cold into thecommanding General's office and there's
a major sitting there at the desk.
You know, what the helldo you want private?
And I said, well, sir, I, I was told Ihave to come see the Commanding General.
I have an opportunity to run my 1935BMW in the La Man's retrospective race.
(26:41):
You what?
Let me get the generalguess who the car guy was.
So he comes rushing out of hisoffice, you know, and I told him
the whole story and, and he says,of course you can, private Jackson.
He says, but you damn well better tell himyou're in the eighth Infantry Division.
Yes, sir. So me and my best Army buddy,Jack Gobel, hop in the car at the time.
(27:06):
You know, the easiest way to go to LaMans was to go to Paris and go south.
Well, Paris was off limits toGIS at the time, so we went south
through, I can't think of it.
We went south and almost straight acrossat LeMans, we hit some towns that we were
the first GIS there since World War ii.
I mean, it was a relatively quiet area.
(27:28):
Anyway, we got to LeMans and uh,were you well received by the French?
Oh yeah.
They loved the car and the fact thatwe were GIS and they, like I say,
these towns that we hit, you know,like we were the first American GIS
back since they'd been liberated, youknow, they were very happy to see us.
So what did you thinkof Le Mans at that time?
Well, of course coming from theStates, that was one of the.
(27:51):
Golden wishes for anybody racingcars was to go to the mall, you
know, with some factory team.
It just blew me away to, to be there, tobe on that track with vintage Bentleys
and Rolls Royces, a Buggati and Al AlphaRomeos, Andela Hayes, and the Lodges,
and all the beautiful vintage cars.
(28:13):
I think we had a LA mall start.
With our cars angled.
Mm-hmm.
You were allowed to have a passenger, youknow, if you had a two man sports car.
And so Jack, my best buddy onthe Army, Jack Gobel, got the
ride the whole hour with me.
Let's unpack that a little bit more.
So driving Le Mans, did itlive up to all the hype?
Did it live up to your expectations?
(28:35):
Oh yeah.
I mean, I had seen some filmof previous Le Mansr races.
Forgive me, I still call it Little Mans.
That's fine.
But you know, it was just athrill to be on that track.
I mean, it would've been thesame way if I'd had gotten to
run in the Indianapolis 500.
I just, it was that kind of a thrillfor me to, you know, to get to go
(28:55):
down the Ong straight, wide open.
And I had one experience during the race.
My boomer had mechanical breaks, and Ihad one that started locking up, so I'm
sure you're familiar with the laud course.
Mm-hmm.
At the end of the Mosam Strait,you turn, literally turn, right?
Mm-hmm.
My top speed was probably 80,85, and when I'd start the break,
(29:19):
that break would catch and I'dkind of skidder through the turn.
And by the third lap, when I wouldcome through the Frenches were getting
up on the hay bills and clapping,and I made it through the turn.
So since you spent an hour goingaround the circuit, obviously the
Mosan always has, its appealed becauseyou can just go flat out and you can
(29:42):
really test the limits of your card.
Yeah.
But was there a section of thetrack that you really liked past
the pits you went through semester?
Mm-hmm.
And I liked that.
And the Dunlop Bridgewas there at that time.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Gimme a break.
How many years ago Thisis, and I'm 91 years old.
But, uh, yeah, that was the otherpart I liked when we hit those S
(30:03):
turns, the Dunlop Bridge, but youknow, everywhere, all the way around.
The course of people were standingup and clapping when we went by, and
they loved the cars as much as we did.
If you watch any of the old videos ofLe Mans from the fifties, it's all black and
white footage and there's some classicscenes of some of the pro drivers in
(30:23):
like D type jaguars and things like that.
And you see women literally walkingdown the road with grocery bags
because it's old farm roads, right?
Oh yeah.
At that time.
Yeah.
So is that what you encounteredwhen you were driving?
Obviously it was in full colorfor you, you were there, but
for those of us that saw the oldfootage, what was it really like?
One of the thrills of ofmy life as far as racing.
(30:44):
I mean, even though it wasn't really arace, it was more than anything else,
a one hour continually running aroundthe la long course for people to look
at all the beautiful old race cars.
I mean, it, it was just a thrill,you know, to be on that track.
Well, we, we took, had taken along oursleeping bags and one of our pup tents and
(31:05):
we just set up a pup tent in the, in thepit area and slump in our sleeping bags.
But you know, there was plenty offood and drink available and uh, what
became big time drivers were therefor the 24 hour to see some of them.
I talked to Phil Hill again and Idon't know if Carol Shelby was there.
(31:25):
Yeah, 59 would've been the year hewas there with at the Aston DBR nine,
so that would've been the next year.
I'll be honest with you, I don'tremember the guys, but there were
some of the guys that I'd racedwith in the states that were there.
So, you know, it was a great, I thinkwe were there about three days total.
Back to mine, Scott.
So to continue to talk about theLe Mans experience a little bit, one
(31:47):
of the questions we asked the prodrivers that come on and talk about
their experiences at Le Mans, one of thethings is, what did Le Mans teach you?
'cause a lot of people will take what theylearned from that experience and bring it
back to their racing when they come home.
Uh, so what do you think Le Mans taught?
You Don't do anythingcrazy in showing off.
As I said, our race wasn'treally a competition.
(32:09):
Mm-hmm.
So there was no reason.
To press it.
I can remember a couple times hittinga turn with, say, a vintage Bentley.
I would just kind of, after you, my dearAlfonso, you know, let him, let him go.
There was no reason to turnit into a pitch battle.
Uh, there was nothing to be gained.
And, and very honestly, I was looking atthe cars as much as anybody else thinking.
(32:33):
Here I am on the track with avintage eight liter Bentley.
Uh, it just blew me away.
And then of course, seeing thecars in the pits, you know,
before the, before the race.
It was kind of like a dream comethrough for a young guy like me.
Did you ever race anywhereelse in Europe after that?
With our Hesse boat sports club?
(32:54):
We did.
Like I said, we did some funcompetitions on a couple of airports.
Nothing really serious.
Okay, I got to drive theBerg ring and that was fun.
Did you ever return toLe Mans after that one time?
Never had the chance.
Did you keep up with it?
Many decades of racing nowhave evolved at Le Mans.
Yeah.
You still keep up with the 24?
(33:14):
Not really.
I, when I came home, I, Iwas getting on with my life.
I had the AC Bristol, but Iwas going back to college.
My major Grady, we became friendswhen I was sports editor of
the eighth division of Paper.
And you know, he sat me down earlyon and says, what are you gonna do
when you get outta the Army Bill?
And I said, I don't really know.
(33:34):
And he said, did you everconsider journalism as a career?
And I said, no, I hadn't.
And he said, well, you should.
He said, we have the Universityof Maryland overseas program
right here on our base.
And he said, I'll bet if you took acouple of courses and got good grades
in them, you could go back and showthem that, and you'd get back in.
And that's exactly what I did.
I, I went back and, ofcourse, knew what I was doing.
(33:54):
Finished my degree in business management,took my master's in journalism.
The retrospective the year you did it?
1958. That wasn't thefirst time they had run it.
Do you know how many more times theretrospective ran after you did it?
I have no idea.
Were you able to find, was I thefirst, so right now you are the.
Earliest person we've ever interviewedthat has turned a lap at Leba, whether
(34:18):
it was in anger or whether it was forfun, like you said, Shelby would've
been the year after you, Andretti, whowe've interviewed, didn't race until
the sixties, Uhhuh mid to late sixties.
So that's almost 10 years after you.
So right now, yeah, there'snobody else that we've talked to
that has run it that far back.
Which is pretty cool.
And yeah, I'll say, I mean you, you know,you mentioned you thought I was mm-hmm.
(34:39):
When we first talked and our goal withthis whole program is to talk to people
that have turned a lap at Le Mansr orbeen involved that came from the state.
Right.
Because it is such, like you said, it'ssuch hallowed ground for a lot of people.
Mm-hmm.
It's that bucket list I wannaget there one day sort of thing.
And so it's pretty amazingto hear the stories.
Would it surprise you to know that?
(34:59):
And it's not a direct correlationthat that has morphed into something
that is now known as Le Mans Classic.
Do they still run it?
They are now running it startingthis year, every year from
now on alongside of the 24.
24. Well, that's whatthey did then, right?
So now they do it two weekslater and they run three days.
Oh, they don't?
And it's a full competition.
Would you like to guess how many peopleattended this year's Le Mans Classic?
(35:21):
I have no idea.
220,000 people.
Wow.
We're in attendance.
It's the biggest vintage race of the year.
Well, people like old cars.
Yeah, right.
What people don't know unless they'velooked into it, is there is a class
for your BMW to continue to run.
Oh, really?
Even today at Le Mans, whichis really, really cool.
So yeah, that'd be kind of neat, right?
(35:42):
Yeah.
Maybe it'll find its way homeone day and run Le Mans again.
Well, on that note, bill, appreciate youspending your afternoon with me and Oh,
sharing some stories and some memories.
Well, I love, you know, I mean, somebodythat's interested, you know, I'm nine one,
how much longer am I going to be around?
Or this is all going to be lost.
Well, good memories, right?
Oh yeah.
And a once in a lifetime opportunity.
(36:03):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Fantastic.
Absolutely.
As we cross the finish line on today'sepisode, we are left with more than
just the echoes of engines and thescent of old leather and gasoline.
Bill Jackson's journey reminds usthat racing isn't just about speed.
It's about memory, meaning, and thequiet moments between laps from Cold
War barracks to the paddocks of Le Mans.
(36:24):
Bill's story is a testament toresilience, craftsmanship, and
the human connections that outlasteven the fiercest competition.
His friendship with Ernst, his reverencefor the machines he restored and
his reflections on time and legacy.
Invite us to consider whatwe're really racing towards.
We hope you enjoyed this presentationto look forward to more evening
with a legend throughout the season.
(36:44):
And on behalf of everyone here andthose listening at home, thank you
Bill for sharing your stories with us.
This episode is brought to you in partby the Society of Automotive Historians.
(37:07):
They encourage research into anyaspect of automotive history.
The SAH actively supports thecompilation and preservation of papers,
organizational records, print ephemera,and images to safeguard, as well as to
broaden and deepen the understanding ofmotorized wheeled land transportation.
(37:27):
Through the modern ageand into the future.
For more information about theSAH, visit www.auto history.org.
This episode has been brought to youby the Automobile Club of the West and
the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiringspeed demons that have graced the
track to the courageous drivers whohave pushed the limits of endurance.
(37:49):
The 24 hours of the Le Mans isan automotive spectacle like
no other for over a century.
The 24 hours Le Mans has urged manufacturersto innovate for the benefit of future
motorists, and it's a celebration ofthe relentless pursuit of speed and
excellence in the world of motor sports.
To learn more about or to becomea member of the A-C-O-U-S-A look
no further than www do Le Mansn org.
(38:11):
Click on English in the upper rightcorner, and then click on the a
CO members tab for club offers.
Once you've become a member, you canfollow all the action on the Facebook
group, ACO USA Members Club, andbecome part of the Legend with Future
Evening with the legend meetups.
(38:37):
This episode has been brought to youby Grand Touring Motorsports as part
of our Motoring Podcast network.
For more episodes like this, tune in eachweek for more exciting and educational
content from organizations like TheExotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring
Historian, break Fix, and many others.
If you'd like to support GrandTouring Motorsport and the Motoring
Podcast Network, sign up for oneof our many sponsorship tiers at
(38:59):
www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.
Please note that the content,opinions and materials presented and
expressed in this episode are thoseof its creator, and this episode has
been published with their consent.
If you have any inquiries about thisprogram, please contact the creators
of this episode via email or socialmedia as mentioned in the episode.
Evening With a Legend is a seriesof presentations exclusive to
legends of the famous 24 hours ofLe Mans giving us an opportunity
to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
By sharing stories and highlightsof the big event, you get a chance
to become part of the Legend ofLe Mans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
(00:34):
Tonight we have an opportunity to bringa piece of Le Mans to you sharing in the
Legend of Le Mans with guests from differenteras of over 100 years of racing.
And as your host, I'm delighted tointroduce 91-year-old William S.
Jackson, one of the co-founders ofthe Society of Automotive Historians,
who isn't just a veteran of motorsports from being drafted during the
(00:55):
Cold War to racing alongside legendslike Carol Shelby and Sterling Moss.
Bill's journey to LeMans is a tale ofgrit, ingenuity, and unexpected grace.
Today we're taking you back to1958 to a time when racing was raw,
personal, and deeply intertwinedwith the world's shifting tides.
You'll hear how a flunked collegecareer turned into a military path
(01:16):
that led him to Germany, where achance friendship with a former
Lifa pilot changed his view of war.
Peace and humanity, and you'll rideshotgun as Bill recounts his time
behind the wheel of a 1935 BMW three 15restored with reverence and raced with
heart on the hallowed grounds of Le Mans.
And with that, I'm your host Kru ChiefErick from the Motoring Podcast Network,
(01:36):
welcoming everyone to this very specialVeteran's Day evening with a legend.
Alright, bill, so we're gonna talkabout your experience at Le Mans.
A very special experienceat Le Mans 1958, right?
So that's Le Mans retrospective.
A lot of our members probablydon't even know what that is.
(01:56):
And so to lay that out, it's a precursorto what we know today as the Le Mans Classic.
So let's talk about your journey.
Getting to Europe, your road to Le Mans.
Okay.
Well you know, it's kindof an interesting story.
I was a Cold War soldier and not manypeople know much about what it was like
being a draftee during the Cold War years.
And this is a kind of ahumorous personal story.
(02:20):
I'd flunked out of industrial engineeringinto business management and that
flunk out of business management.
'cause I was racing sports cars.
I was leaving Thursday nightand getting back Sunday night
and that just didn't work well.
The assistant dean of the Collegeof Business called me in and just
chewed me up one side and downthe other Bill, you're not stupid.
(02:41):
You're racing those damn cars and you'renot applying yourself, and you could
succeed if you just get away from that.
And he said, you're outta here now.
And he said, I'm sure the draftis going to get you pretty soon.
And he said, but after you're in andout of the army, if you've decided
what you want to do with your life,I'll get you back into Penn State.
If you could show me something.
And as I'm getting ready to go outof his office, I'm thinking, does
(03:04):
he do this with every student?
Flunking out?
Anyway, I, I was drafted roughly,uh, June of, uh, 1957, sent to
Fort Riley, Kansas as a memberof the first Infantry division.
I was a graduate of Valley Ford'sMilitary Academy, so I wouldn't say
that basic training was easy, but Ialready knew how to play the game.
(03:27):
What that got me is I ended up beingnamed Outstanding trainee of the
first division for the year of 1957.
After we had a two week vacation afterbasic training and came back to start
advanced infantry training, right.
My company commander called mein the office and he gave me
a master sergeant's armband.
And he said, you are to wear this andon base you are a master sergeant and
(03:52):
you are assistant platoon leader forthe fourth platoon, which was 44 men.
And I'm just coming out of basictraining and I all of a sudden,
bam, I'm an acting master sergeantwith a responsibility for 44 guys.
We went out on a wintermaneuver in December.
We were supposed to be out for three days.
What they called in Kansas, a bluenortherner blew in it, dropped
(04:15):
to about 20 above with wind.
They canceled the operation, butthey couldn't get us trucks out
to pick us up till the next day.
So the company commander says toeach of us platoon leaders, you
take care of your guys tonight andwhen we'll get outta here tomorrow.
Well, most of the platoonsbuilt a gigantic bonfire and
gathered around it and cookedtheir front and froze their rear.
(04:36):
I took my guys down into a dry streambed and we dug fire pits into the
sides of the stream outta the wind.
I had them put their pup tents up.
Two pegs high instead of three pegs high.
So they would cut the wind andas per usual, put dirt around the
edges so it wouldn't blow away.
Fill 'em full of buffalo grass andthen get their sleeping bags out.
(04:59):
And I went around and checked every oneof 'em to be sure they took their boots
off where they got into the sleeping bags.
Well, the first Sergeant comes around,Jackson, what is all this non reg stuff?
You are not allowed to do this.
Put those tents upproperly and yes, sergeant.
As soon as he left, I told the guys, Isaid, just leave everything the way it is.
Well, the next morning the colonelof the regiment comes around with the
(05:22):
company commander and the first sergeant.
They suffered 11% frostbite.
They came down into tothe sunken Stream bed.
My guys are gathered around thefire pits in the side of the stream
and, and, uh, they'd all had a goodnight's sleep and I hadn't lost a man.
Colonel looks around.
Says, who's in charge here?
And the first Sergeant is smiling.
(05:43):
You know, he says he is.
So I'm standing there at attention and thecolonel says, Sergeant, what is all this?
Where'd you learn to do this?
Boy Scout Troop seven Clearfield,Pennsylvania, sir. Got a big grid on
his face that says, carry on Sergeant.
And they went away.
And the first Sergeant is kindof behind him going, credible.
(06:06):
But, uh, anyway, that was one of the mostinteresting experiences I had as a platoon
sergeant right out of basic trading.
Well, I, when I went over to Germany,of course I was back as a PFC.
Again, I went over, I thinkprobably been September or
October or something like that.
So before you got deployed in Germany,you were racing here in the States?
(06:27):
Oh yeah.
My very first event was the Breakneck Hillclimb outside of Cumberland, Maryland.
Because I had just finished my 21 hoursof observed practice and were required to
get your SECA license and they liked youto run two or three hill climbs before
they cut you loose for road racing.
So I started racing with a54 Jag xk, one 20 modified
(06:48):
Roadster, and it was soft sprung.
You know, you could bottom out andtake out $300 worth of mufflers.
So I had made a set of straight pipes,came out under the driver's door.
So, like I say, thisis my very first event.
I'm under the car puttingthe straight pipes on.
Somebody starts kicking my foot.
I look out from underneath and I seethe bottom of farmer bib overalls.
(07:09):
Thought some stupid farmer's goingto ask me a bunch of dumb questions.
So I yelled out from under thecar, what the hell do you want?
And there's silence.
And then he all got, if Jack, having livedin Texas, I recognized that the accent.
And I'm thinking, there'sthis guy from Texas that had
been racing on the west coast.
They said it's coming east.
That races in farmer bioveralls named Carol Shelby.
(07:32):
So I rolled out from under mycar and sure as hell, it's Carol.
Yes, Mr. Shelby.
I have a jack.
He was driving for some millionaire whohad bought one of the last front engine
Ferrari Grand Prix cars and hired Carol todrive it and they was going after the SECA
unlimited Class Hill Climb Championship.
So.
(07:52):
I go with Carol up to the Ferrari pitand Eric sits with a flat left rear
trier and somebody forgot the jack.
Anyway, that was the beginning of,of a relationship with Carol 'cause
he had come east and was runningsome of the same courses I was
back up to, to, uh, January 57th.
(08:13):
Driven for the Morgan Factory team.
I they read in the springsprints at Upper Marlborough.
The AC Bristol Importers had run abig article in the Washington Post.
That they were coming to Upper Marlboroughfor the SCCA spring sprints, and they were
gonna show the locals how it was done.
So long story short, I beat the topAC Bristol driver for new production
(08:35):
in the spring sprints at Mar Gra.
So afterwards, I'm down in the pits,we ru run what you brung, and I'm
putting a windshield back on andtaking the racing screen off and all.
And these two suits commit coats andties and they walk up to my Morgan.
Bag over the hood.
The guy said, is this belong to you?
And I said, yes.
(08:55):
He said, if you can be ourtop driver with this piece of
shit, you gotta drive for us.
How'd you like to go to br?
Well, ACS plan was to have four carsat Seabring, but they only gave him
three interest, so I ended up as arelief driver of the other three.
I'll be honest with you,I never got in the race.
Mm. I got to practice, youknow, I was on a track with Mike
(09:17):
Hawthorne and Sterling Moss.
Juan fgi and I mean, but you stillhad to get your license, right?
That's where I got my license.
You had to have an FIAlicense to run sibr.
And I had got, you know, real quick,I mean I had about a month and a half.
I got my FIA licensebased on my SECA license.
For a US race you needan international license.
Yeah, you had to have theinternational license.
(09:37):
'cause apparently Sebring wason the international calendar.
But anyway, fast forward,Sebring, Carol Shelby and Roy
Salvador, the British driver aredriving a Maserati for the fact.
And they did something 62laps in and were disqualified.
So Carol is just walking the pits andhe comes over the AC Bristol pit and our
(09:59):
practice car, which I ended up buyingfrom the factory incidentally for $3,500
is sitting in the back of the pits.
And Carol says, bill, would youmind opening that hood and Annette,
and let me look in that engine bay.
So I go back and, you know.
I put the stick in it to hold itup, and he's back there for about
(10:21):
20 minutes practically climbing intothe engine bay in that AC Bristol.
So I finally, I went back just to seewhat he's doing, you know, and he, he's
checking out the front suspension andthe steering and everything, and he said,
man, you could fit a big American V eightin here and you'd really have something.
This is March, 1957, first Cobra of 64.
(10:42):
He was thinking about iteven then, and of course.
AC Bristol quit making engines.
So they're sitting there with thatbeautiful Roadster with nothing in it.
And Carol had already been talkingto Fort and he brought 'em together
and, and voila, we had the Cobra.
But, uh, I was side to company a of theEighth Infantry Regiment of the eighth
(11:04):
Infantry Division in Mikes Heim, Germany.
Our mission, we had pre-planned positionsin the folded gap for World War ii.
It's where the Germans came through,uh, when they attacked France.
And our mission was if, as we called it,if the balloon never went up, then the
East Germans and the Russians came across.
We were to dig in and hold in thosepre-planned positions for two hours
(11:26):
till they got reinforcements up.
Initially, I was a BAR man, but then whenthe company commander found out about what
I had done in basic and advanced infantrytraining, I became company guide, what
they call a Pathfinder now, and I used torun patrols up near the East German board.
Even right up at the border, they, they,uh, I don't know whether it was these
Germans or the Russians that built 'em,but they had built some guard towers.
(11:50):
I even got close enough one day to waveat the Russians up in the guard tower.
One of our maneuvers or trainingwas a live fire exercise at a, uh,
what had been a German SS trainingcamp in World War II at Wild Flick.
At.
I'm company guide.
The range Officer brings me aside andhe hands me full tracer ammunition and
(12:14):
he says, private, I want you to go downthe hill, cross that little stream,
start up that hill, and when I blow mywhistle, once you hit the ground and
start firing with your tracer ammo,it was an old German World War II
pill box up on top of the hill, and Iwas the direct fire at that pill box.
And he said The company will thenbe firing and advancing by platoon.
(12:34):
And when they get up to you, youfall in with 'em and going up
the end, top of the hill, andthat'll be the end of the exercise.
So I go down the hill, cross thecreek, start up the hill, he blows
his whistle, I hit the ground, I startfiring, and then all hell breaks loose
over my head as they start advancingby platoon, live fire, live ammo.
(12:55):
Anyway, they come down across thecreek, start up the hill, and.
All of a sudden I recognizedthe BAR being fired at me.
'cause they do sound different.
I rolled over and looked off to myleft and here they're coming at me.
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
And I just, I froze and he put theclip through it 10 feet from me.
(13:15):
Story was, he didn't do anything wrong.
Even matter of fact, he was doingeverything right, clutched his
BAR heart into his side and lookedahead to watch where he was firing.
And stepped in a rabbit hole and destroyedhis knee and went down and locked on
the trigger and had it pointed at me.
Well, I went looking for a desk job.
Fortunately, my best buddy from basictraining was in regimental headquarters.
(13:38):
He was able to get me a job inPIO, public Information Office.
Writing hometown news releases.
Johnny Jones is in Mines Germany,driving into two and a half
ton truck, da, da da da da.
Sending him the hometown papers.
But we had a lot of sports teams,you know, to keep us active
and keep us out of the bars.
(13:58):
And had, having been sports editor,my paper at Valley Forge, I started
writing sports stories for theeighth division newspaper, the Arrow.
I got a call about two monthslater from a major Grady.
Who was head of the eighth Divisionnewspaper and he said, private Jackson.
He said, I like what you've been doing.
I just lost my sports editor.
(14:18):
Would you be interested in a job transferto division headquarters, general Smith?
No kp, no guard duty,weekend pass every weekend.
Oh, I don't want that job.
So I became sports editor ofthe eighth Division's newspaper.
Well, while all this was going on.
My hope was when I went to Germanyto find a Bugatti and bring it home.
(14:44):
Well, I had no idea how to go about it.
You know, I didn't speak German,but shortly after I got there,
inexpensive, 35 millimetercameras were just coming in and.
They made arrangements through JohnGutenberg University and Mines, and
they sent a photojournalism profout to the base to teach us film
speed, F setting shutter speed.
(15:06):
We had to know all that and taughtus how and as as we were buying
through the PX at the time, mostlyEast German 35 millimeter cameras.
And then they carried it a stepfurther and built a dark room, and
he taught us how to develop, filmand make prints well in conversation,
we discovered he was a car guy.
Ernst Char was this man's name.
(15:28):
He had raced Formula two right afterthe war with a BMW 3 28 based car.
I, I don't think it was aVeritas, it was a special.
Anyway, he was also a racephotographer for the Frankfurter ung
and the Rhine Zeitung newspapers.
I became his gungadin.
(15:48):
I started carrying hiscamera bags to the races.
Grand Pia Holland, grandPrix Europe in Belgium.
I mean, just, I got to go to up tothe thousand Kilometers and Berg ert.
Well, among other things, hebecame my chairman editor when
I was editor of Anti Automobile.
Anyway.
When I went to Germany in the Army, Ihated every German that walked the earth
(16:08):
'cause my father is buried in Belgium.
He was killed February 23rd, 45 as aninfantry man crossing the rural ROER River
in Germany to a capture town of Duren.
When I met and got to know Earnst,you know, he pretty soon picked up
my story and he was a really sharpguy and he started diffusing me.
(16:30):
You know, we would go somewhere and hewould say, oh, you see that over here?
Well, you know, that was the townchurch that you guys came in and just
bombed it flat, you know, I mean, theone that I remember most, we were going
to a race and we were on the Audubon.
You know, there were no rest stops in theAudubon, but the Germans were very casual,
so we just had stopped to get out and pee.
(16:50):
And I looked down in this valley andthere's the remains of a village,
pretty obviously unoccupied.
And I said to Ernst, I said, Iwonder what story is there, why that?
And he says, I'll tellyou what the story is.
I mean, he had verycarefully planned this.
He said the American infantry wascoming up that valley, and he said this.
This was near the end of the war.
(17:10):
At that point in time, the American Armyand the Army Air Corps had worked out
where the ground units had a ground airradio, and there were media bombers just
flying around waiting for assignments.
Anyway, this infantry unitstarted taking artillery fire.
And they thought the spotterwas in the steeple of the
(17:32):
church in this little village.
So they called in media bombersand they flattened this town.
You know, T is telling me this storysaid that when the infantry unit
occupied the town, there was noartillery spotter in the church steeple.
And I said, you certainly seemto know a lot about this earth.
And he said, yes, my grandfatherwas one of the ones that was killed.
(17:55):
But he very carefully did this.
And diffused me.
I mean, I came home at peace, but thething that was the biggest shocker with
Ernst, after he got to know me aboutsix months, he invited me over to his
house and I walked into his living roomand framed over the fireplace, the dual
controls, out of some kind of an airplane.
(18:16):
And I said, Ernest, what?
What is that?
That's the dashboardout of a B 24 liberator.
I said, where the hell did you get that?
He said, I shot it down.
He said, as a matter of fact,I shot down five of them.
He says, bill, I flew a FalkWolf one 90 in the Li wfa.
I hated Hitler.
I hated the Nazis for whatthey've done to our country.
But if you said anything againstthem, they took you out and shot you.
(18:39):
And he says, but Bill, I am a German andyou were kicking hell out of my country.
'cause you know what he had showed me.
Was where we had unnecessarilykilled civilians.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I mean it's justlike the Russians now Yeah.
In Ukraine.
And he said, so he said, pleasedon't ask me to apologize.
And I got it.
(19:00):
And like I say, I came home in peace.
I thought about it in retrospect.
I became the son.
He wished he'd had ERsand I really bonded.
I had told him about wanting to Bugatti.
Well, he knew his way around.
And then we found two Bugattisin a bombed out garage in V spot
at the end of a bombed out alley.
(19:21):
We couldn't find out who owned them,and Ernst said, bill, we're gonna hack
our way in that alley and hack our wayinto that garage, and somebody's gonna
show up and say thank you very much.
He said, let's keep looking.
So it wasn't too long after thatthat he said, I found a car for you.
I said, what is it, Bugatti?
No, it's not a Bugatti.
What is it?
Well, you've gotta see it.
(19:42):
So we went down into the old part of M'Sto an old home and to the horse stable
in the back and in the horse stable.
And he whips the tar poleoff that beautiful 35 BMW,
which I knew nothing about.
I wasn't up to speed on.
Vintage BMWs, so he told me about the car.
It had originally been delivered tohelm, HELM, Kler, K-L-O-C-K-L-A-R,
(20:07):
the main BMW dealer in Frankfurt in1935, and he had hill climbed with it.
Ernst and I, we were told that hehad won the 1500 cc German Hill
Climb Championship in 35 with it.
BMW would not verify this.
Hel clerk was a Nazi and theywould not talk about anything
Nazis did with their cars.
(20:28):
So whether it's true or not, I don't know.
But anyway, I said to Ernst,'cause I said, who owns this?
And he says, I do.
I said, you know, we'vebeen looking for a car.
Why didn't you tell me you had this?
And he said, U gis.
He said, you come over here, you buythese vintage German cars, you run
'em into the ground and then you justgo home and leave them there to rot.
(20:48):
And he said, that can'thappen to this car.
But he said, he says, I've gottento know you and I'll sell it to you.
I had to pay $1,750 for it.
And he said, you can do this.
We'll do this one of two ways.
He says, you gimme $1,750 andyou can do it what you want.
He says, or you give me the 1,750,I'll keep 1400 and I'll use the rest
(21:12):
to restore it under my supervision.
'cause he wanted it doneright and he had the context.
Now, the one reason my car is onlyworth 120,000 instead of over 200,000,
like the two for sale in Germany is.
When they got the car to a garage,it had one of the earliest hurt
(21:33):
roller bearing crankshaft engines,and nobody knew how to work on that.
So what we did, we found a stock 35type three 15, and we took the lower
end, took everything from the head down.
And rebuilt that and put the racinghead with three carburetors on it.
So that's why, you know, mine does nothave the proper serial number on the
(21:56):
engine to go with the VIN number, butit's a little bit more of a hot rod.
Yeah, I mean, for apurist, that's a death.
No.
Was it difficult to find parts for anearly 30-year-old BMW at that point?
Not at that time.
There was a vintage BMW Club and ERT hadconnections there and we were able to get
enough parts to rebuild it, get it on aroad, and it became my everyday driver.
(22:19):
I mean, everybody in the eighthinfantry regiment knew my car.
You wanted a Bugatti because obviouslyit's racing pedigree is known around
the world, so was it always yourintent to go racing in Europe?
No, I figured my racing careerat least, was temporarily over
until I got out of the army.
But anyway, I'd gone to Europewith no plans really to race.
(22:41):
I mean, I had my AC Bristolat home in the garage.
I bought our practice card fromSeabring from the company afterwards,
and I had to pay $3,500 for it.
It's big money in the 1950s, but it wassitting at home in the garage, you know?
So I didn't have money to, you know,to really buy a exotic new race car.
But anyway, Ernst and I, we would takemy BMW and go to the races and that.
(23:05):
I've never forgotten.
We were going to the thousandkilometers up at the Nu Burn ring.
I was worried about parking that car justin the parking lot, but as we got close
to the Nu Burn ring, the police just keptmotioning me through right up to the race.
And when I got into the paddock.
There are at least a hundred Bugattis.
(23:25):
It was the annual gathering of the BugattiClubs of Europe and the Bugatti Club of
Deutsche Lawn was the host that year.
And of course, the police didn't know thedifference between A BMW and a Bugatti.
They just knew it was an old race car.
So I pulled into, into that paddockarea with all these Bugattis, you
(23:50):
know, and all these guys are looking.
And I got US forces plates on it andthey started to come over and look at it.
T was with me and of course,and I noticed three guys talking
with their heads together.
Then they came over, shook my hand andexplained to me in German with Ernst
Telling, you know, what they were saying.
(24:11):
And what they said was, we reallyappreciate your appreciation of a
German engineering of a car and.
In appreciation for what you have done.
We are making you a lifetime member of theBugatti Club of Delan, and they presented
me with a beautiful car badge, which ison the side of the hood of the BMW still.
(24:36):
So, I mean, that was one of the thrills Ihad with a. I joined the Hess E-H-E-S-S-E
Motor Sports Club, which was like sayingthe Pennsylvania Motor Sports Club.
Mm-hmm.
Did some not serious airport racing, butsome fun racing with the German guys.
You know, they really likedthe fact, again, that I had
(24:58):
had this work done on this car.
So how did you hear aboutthe Le Mans's retrospective?
I mean, was Le Mans's ever?
Well, with her connections, hecame to me and he said, bill.
How'd you like to run theLa Man's retrospective race?
I thought he meant the 24hour, and I said, I can't
run, run the BMW for 24 hours.
(25:18):
He said, no, no, no, no.
He says, the day before the 24hour, there's a one hour race
called the Le Mansn Retro Retrospectivefor cars that raced there prior
to World War ii, prior to 1939.
He says, your BMW qualifiesand I can get you an entry.
So PFC Jackson goes to his companycommander in the Eighth Infantry Company,
(25:40):
A of the Eighth Infantry Regiment.
And I said, I, everybody knew mycar on base Captain I, I said, I
have an opportunity to run my BMWin the La Man's retrospective race
to explain to him what it was.
And he said, Jackson,that's above my pay grade.
I can't give you permission to do that.
You're gonna have to go see the colonel.
So I go up to headquarters, the eighthinfantry regiment to the colonel's
(26:00):
office, and I go in and I. Make a samepresentation and he says the same thing
I, that's above my pay grade Jackson.
You're gonna have to go todivision headquarters and
talk to somebody up there.
So I drive up the division headquartersin Bud Krono bark in the general's
parking lot next to an Austin Healey.
(26:21):
Somebody's a car guy.
PFC Jackson just walks in cold into thecommanding General's office and there's
a major sitting there at the desk.
You know, what the helldo you want private?
And I said, well, sir, I, I was told Ihave to come see the Commanding General.
I have an opportunity to run my 1935BMW in the La Man's retrospective race.
(26:41):
You what?
Let me get the generalguess who the car guy was.
So he comes rushing out of hisoffice, you know, and I told him
the whole story and, and he says,of course you can, private Jackson.
He says, but you damn well better tell himyou're in the eighth Infantry Division.
Yes, sir. So me and my best Army buddy,Jack Gobel, hop in the car at the time.
(27:06):
You know, the easiest way to go to LaMans was to go to Paris and go south.
Well, Paris was off limits toGIS at the time, so we went south
through, I can't think of it.
We went south and almost straight acrossat LeMans, we hit some towns that we were
the first GIS there since World War ii.
I mean, it was a relatively quiet area.
(27:28):
Anyway, we got to LeMans and uh,were you well received by the French?
Oh yeah.
They loved the car and the fact thatwe were GIS and they, like I say,
these towns that we hit, you know,like we were the first American GIS
back since they'd been liberated, youknow, they were very happy to see us.
So what did you thinkof Le Mans at that time?
Well, of course coming from theStates, that was one of the.
(27:51):
Golden wishes for anybody racingcars was to go to the mall, you
know, with some factory team.
It just blew me away to, to be there, tobe on that track with vintage Bentleys
and Rolls Royces, a Buggati and Al AlphaRomeos, Andela Hayes, and the Lodges,
and all the beautiful vintage cars.
(28:13):
I think we had a LA mall start.
With our cars angled.
Mm-hmm.
You were allowed to have a passenger, youknow, if you had a two man sports car.
And so Jack, my best buddy onthe Army, Jack Gobel, got the
ride the whole hour with me.
Let's unpack that a little bit more.
So driving Le Mans, did itlive up to all the hype?
Did it live up to your expectations?
(28:35):
Oh yeah.
I mean, I had seen some filmof previous Le Mansr races.
Forgive me, I still call it Little Mans.
That's fine.
But you know, it was just athrill to be on that track.
I mean, it would've been thesame way if I'd had gotten to
run in the Indianapolis 500.
I just, it was that kind of a thrillfor me to, you know, to get to go
(28:55):
down the Ong straight, wide open.
And I had one experience during the race.
My boomer had mechanical breaks, and Ihad one that started locking up, so I'm
sure you're familiar with the laud course.
Mm-hmm.
At the end of the Mosam Strait,you turn, literally turn, right?
Mm-hmm.
My top speed was probably 80,85, and when I'd start the break,
(29:19):
that break would catch and I'dkind of skidder through the turn.
And by the third lap, when I wouldcome through the Frenches were getting
up on the hay bills and clapping,and I made it through the turn.
So since you spent an hour goingaround the circuit, obviously the
Mosan always has, its appealed becauseyou can just go flat out and you can
(29:42):
really test the limits of your card.
Yeah.
But was there a section of thetrack that you really liked past
the pits you went through semester?
Mm-hmm.
And I liked that.
And the Dunlop Bridgewas there at that time.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Gimme a break.
How many years ago Thisis, and I'm 91 years old.
But, uh, yeah, that was the otherpart I liked when we hit those S
(30:03):
turns, the Dunlop Bridge, but youknow, everywhere, all the way around.
The course of people were standingup and clapping when we went by, and
they loved the cars as much as we did.
If you watch any of the old videos ofLe Mans from the fifties, it's all black and
white footage and there's some classicscenes of some of the pro drivers in
(30:23):
like D type jaguars and things like that.
And you see women literally walkingdown the road with grocery bags
because it's old farm roads, right?
Oh yeah.
At that time.
Yeah.
So is that what you encounteredwhen you were driving?
Obviously it was in full colorfor you, you were there, but
for those of us that saw the oldfootage, what was it really like?
One of the thrills of ofmy life as far as racing.
(30:44):
I mean, even though it wasn't really arace, it was more than anything else,
a one hour continually running aroundthe la long course for people to look
at all the beautiful old race cars.
I mean, it, it was just a thrill,you know, to be on that track.
Well, we, we took, had taken along oursleeping bags and one of our pup tents and
(31:05):
we just set up a pup tent in the, in thepit area and slump in our sleeping bags.
But you know, there was plenty offood and drink available and uh, what
became big time drivers were therefor the 24 hour to see some of them.
I talked to Phil Hill again and Idon't know if Carol Shelby was there.
(31:25):
Yeah, 59 would've been the year hewas there with at the Aston DBR nine,
so that would've been the next year.
I'll be honest with you, I don'tremember the guys, but there were
some of the guys that I'd racedwith in the states that were there.
So, you know, it was a great, I thinkwe were there about three days total.
Back to mine, Scott.
So to continue to talk about theLe Mans experience a little bit, one
(31:47):
of the questions we asked the prodrivers that come on and talk about
their experiences at Le Mans, one of thethings is, what did Le Mans teach you?
'cause a lot of people will take what theylearned from that experience and bring it
back to their racing when they come home.
Uh, so what do you think Le Mans taught?
You Don't do anythingcrazy in showing off.
As I said, our race wasn'treally a competition.
(32:09):
Mm-hmm.
So there was no reason.
To press it.
I can remember a couple times hittinga turn with, say, a vintage Bentley.
I would just kind of, after you, my dearAlfonso, you know, let him, let him go.
There was no reason to turnit into a pitch battle.
Uh, there was nothing to be gained.
And, and very honestly, I was looking atthe cars as much as anybody else thinking.
(32:33):
Here I am on the track with avintage eight liter Bentley.
Uh, it just blew me away.
And then of course, seeing thecars in the pits, you know,
before the, before the race.
It was kind of like a dream comethrough for a young guy like me.
Did you ever race anywhereelse in Europe after that?
With our Hesse boat sports club?
(32:54):
We did.
Like I said, we did some funcompetitions on a couple of airports.
Nothing really serious.
Okay, I got to drive theBerg ring and that was fun.
Did you ever return toLe Mans after that one time?
Never had the chance.
Did you keep up with it?
Many decades of racing nowhave evolved at Le Mans.
Yeah.
You still keep up with the 24?
(33:14):
Not really.
I, when I came home, I, Iwas getting on with my life.
I had the AC Bristol, but Iwas going back to college.
My major Grady, we became friendswhen I was sports editor of
the eighth division of Paper.
And you know, he sat me down earlyon and says, what are you gonna do
when you get outta the Army Bill?
And I said, I don't really know.
(33:34):
And he said, did you everconsider journalism as a career?
And I said, no, I hadn't.
And he said, well, you should.
He said, we have the Universityof Maryland overseas program
right here on our base.
And he said, I'll bet if you took acouple of courses and got good grades
in them, you could go back and showthem that, and you'd get back in.
And that's exactly what I did.
I, I went back and, ofcourse, knew what I was doing.
(33:54):
Finished my degree in business management,took my master's in journalism.
The retrospective the year you did it?
1958. That wasn't thefirst time they had run it.
Do you know how many more times theretrospective ran after you did it?
I have no idea.
Were you able to find, was I thefirst, so right now you are the.
Earliest person we've ever interviewedthat has turned a lap at Leba, whether
(34:18):
it was in anger or whether it was forfun, like you said, Shelby would've
been the year after you, Andretti, whowe've interviewed, didn't race until
the sixties, Uhhuh mid to late sixties.
So that's almost 10 years after you.
So right now, yeah, there'snobody else that we've talked to
that has run it that far back.
Which is pretty cool.
And yeah, I'll say, I mean you, you know,you mentioned you thought I was mm-hmm.
(34:39):
When we first talked and our goal withthis whole program is to talk to people
that have turned a lap at Le Mansr orbeen involved that came from the state.
Right.
Because it is such, like you said, it'ssuch hallowed ground for a lot of people.
Mm-hmm.
It's that bucket list I wannaget there one day sort of thing.
And so it's pretty amazingto hear the stories.
Would it surprise you to know that?
(34:59):
And it's not a direct correlationthat that has morphed into something
that is now known as Le Mans Classic.
Do they still run it?
They are now running it startingthis year, every year from
now on alongside of the 24.
24. Well, that's whatthey did then, right?
So now they do it two weekslater and they run three days.
Oh, they don't?
And it's a full competition.
Would you like to guess how many peopleattended this year's Le Mans Classic?
(35:21):
I have no idea.
220,000 people.
Wow.
We're in attendance.
It's the biggest vintage race of the year.
Well, people like old cars.
Yeah, right.
What people don't know unless they'velooked into it, is there is a class
for your BMW to continue to run.
Oh, really?
Even today at Le Mans, whichis really, really cool.
So yeah, that'd be kind of neat, right?
(35:42):
Yeah.
Maybe it'll find its way homeone day and run Le Mans again.
Well, on that note, bill, appreciate youspending your afternoon with me and Oh,
sharing some stories and some memories.
Well, I love, you know, I mean, somebodythat's interested, you know, I'm nine one,
how much longer am I going to be around?
Or this is all going to be lost.
Well, good memories, right?
Oh yeah.
And a once in a lifetime opportunity.
(36:03):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Fantastic.
Absolutely.
As we cross the finish line on today'sepisode, we are left with more than
just the echoes of engines and thescent of old leather and gasoline.
Bill Jackson's journey reminds usthat racing isn't just about speed.
It's about memory, meaning, and thequiet moments between laps from Cold
War barracks to the paddocks of Le Mans.
(36:24):
Bill's story is a testament toresilience, craftsmanship, and
the human connections that outlasteven the fiercest competition.
His friendship with Ernst, his reverencefor the machines he restored and
his reflections on time and legacy.
Invite us to consider whatwe're really racing towards.
We hope you enjoyed this presentationto look forward to more evening
with a legend throughout the season.
(36:44):
And on behalf of everyone here andthose listening at home, thank you
Bill for sharing your stories with us.
This episode is brought to you in partby the Society of Automotive Historians.
(37:07):
They encourage research into anyaspect of automotive history.
The SAH actively supports thecompilation and preservation of papers,
organizational records, print ephemera,and images to safeguard, as well as to
broaden and deepen the understanding ofmotorized wheeled land transportation.
(37:27):
Through the modern ageand into the future.
For more information about theSAH, visit www.auto history.org.
This episode has been brought to youby the Automobile Club of the West and
the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiringspeed demons that have graced the
track to the courageous drivers whohave pushed the limits of endurance.
(37:49):
The 24 hours of the Le Mans isan automotive spectacle like
no other for over a century.
The 24 hours Le Mans has urged manufacturersto innovate for the benefit of future
motorists, and it's a celebration ofthe relentless pursuit of speed and
excellence in the world of motor sports.
To learn more about or to becomea member of the A-C-O-U-S-A look
no further than www do Le Mansn org.
(38:11):
Click on English in the upper rightcorner, and then click on the a
CO members tab for club offers.
Once you've become a member, you canfollow all the action on the Facebook
group, ACO USA Members Club, andbecome part of the Legend with Future
Evening with the legend meetups.
(38:37):
This episode has been brought to youby Grand Touring Motorsports as part
of our Motoring Podcast network.
For more episodes like this, tune in eachweek for more exciting and educational
content from organizations like TheExotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring
Historian, break Fix, and many others.
If you'd like to support GrandTouring Motorsport and the Motoring
Podcast Network, sign up for oneof our many sponsorship tiers at
(38:59):
www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.
Please note that the content,opinions and materials presented and
expressed in this episode are thoseof its creator, and this episode has
been published with their consent.
If you have any inquiries about thisprogram, please contact the creators
of this episode via email or socialmedia as mentioned in the episode.
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