November 6, 2025 • 35 mins
In this Pit Stop mini-sode, we return to Donald C. Davidson’s storytelling with a nostalgic return to Watkins Glen, reminiscing about his first visit in 1972 and subsequent visits until 1977. Donald shares detailed stories about early experiences at the US Grand Prix, interactions with legendary drivers like Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda, and the unique culture of the racing community at that time. His anecdotes highlight the camaraderie among drivers and fans, and he vividly recalls the vibrant atmosphere at events such as those held throughout the village and the track. Donald also reflects on the unchanged charm of the area despite the passage of time and shares humorous and poignant incidents from the heyday of Formula 1 at Watkins Glen.
This episode was originally recorded in 2012 at International Motor Racing Research Center and has been remastered for this podcast.
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00:00 Donald C. Davidson's Nostalgic Return to Watkins Glen 00:37 Early Experiences and Legendary Drivers 01:08 Memorable Moments and Racing Culture 04:18 Gatherings and Camaraderie at the Speedway 11:22 The Unique Atmosphere of Watkins Glen 12:12 Encounters with Racing Legends 13:48 Reflections on the Changing Racing Scene 15:39 Personal Anecdotes and Stories 20:09 The Glen Motor Court Experience 32:35 Final Thoughts and Conclusion ====================The Motoring Podcast Network : Years of racing, wrenching and Motorsports experience brings together a top notch collection of knowledge, stories and information. #everyonehasastory #gtmbreakfix - motoringpodcast.net
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This episode is part of our HISTORY OF MOTORSPORTS SERIES and is sponsored in part by: The International Motor Racing Research Center (IMRRC), The Society of Automotive Historians (SAH), The Watkins Glen Area Chamber of Commerce, and the Argetsinger Family.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We always have a blast chatting withour guests about all sorts of different
topics, but sometimes we go offthe rails and dig deeper into their
automotive and motor sports pasts.
As a bonus, let's go behind thescenes with this pit stop mini
episode for some extra content thatdidn't quite fit in the main episode.
Sit back and enjoy andremember to like, subscribe and
(00:20):
support break fix on Patreon.
In this pit stop Mini.
So we return to Donald cDavidson's Storytelling with
a nostalgic return to Watkins.
Glenn reminiscing about his first visitin 1972 and subsequent visits until 1977.
Donald shares detailed stories aboutearly experiences at the US Grand
(00:41):
Prix interactions with legendarydrivers like Jackie Stewart and Nikki
Lauda, and the unique culture ofthe racing community at that time.
His anecdotes highlight thecamaraderie among drivers and fans.
And Donald vividly recalls the vibrantatmosphere at events such as those held
throughout the village and the track.
He also reflects on the unchangedcharm of the area, despite the passage
(01:02):
of time and shares, humorous andpoignant incidents from the heyday
of Formula One at Watkins Glen.
It's really a kit to be here.
It's kind of a pinch me situation toactually be returning to Rock Glen.
I've never been to the research librarybefore because my years at the Glen
far seed, the research library, firsttime I came out here was in 1972, and
(01:26):
the most recent time that I've beenhere private this weekend was 1977.
And it came about because of the factthat one of my mentors, a gentleman who
I had read because he wrote some, a greathistorian by the name of Charles Life, and
I know he's very, very important to the.
(01:48):
And then I think probably themajority of you are either at least
familiar with him and maybe someof you had interaction with him.
He was an extraordinary gentlemanfrom Sharon, Pennsylvania.
With all due respect to everybody,of all the people that I ever met,
I felt that he was the best of thehistorians of the very early days.
(02:12):
Although he was American, he wasvery English in his whole approach.
Uh, the way that he.
Spoke and the fact that he had a greataffection to do it and solve operas and,
and, uh, married a British lady, very,very British in his whole approach.
A delight for gentleman and hewas interested in Indianapolis
and went back there for years.
(02:34):
But he was real in, was sort of like theroad racing types of the very early days
and he made a number of trips to Europe.
I dunno when the first onewould be, but certainly late.
Mid 50.
He went to Europe severaltimes and he would go and visit
(02:55):
drivers who had participated.
You know, I'm not talking just beforeWorld War I, I'm talking to city Racers
because he was an expert on Paris toMadrid and Paris and all, and he would
show me these photographs and or whoever.
He had all the, on all these people.
(03:18):
Participated in 1898 and then, uh,through the, the very early 19 hundreds.
So just extraordinary hand.
But anyway, I had written to him privatemeeting, my first trip to Indianapolis.
I wrote to probably a half a dozen people.
And, uh, one of the questionsthat I, because I would, I would
(03:39):
read the climb year book yearwith the section in the back.
Where there would be a little briefstory by Charles Light, and then these
photographs that typically would've 2,3, 4, 5 people lined up to this day.
I can spot a rifle of print across theroom because know they had their own
(04:01):
particular stamp on 'em, and what hedid was to take photographs of veterans.
It was wonderful to be able tosee what these people looked like.
Long before there was a 500timers flood at the track, but
that wasn't formed until 1961.
But the Speedway was always a gatheringplace for all of these people and
(04:22):
that they were welcome with open arms.
But if you drove 25 years agoonce and finished glass, you
were welcome with open arms.
And so everybody would come back andsome of them just come for a few days.
Others would spend the entire month,they'd bring scrap books, puddle
album, just a huge gathering, you know,camaraderie amongst people that have
(04:44):
run 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years before.
And Charlotte recall this on film.
And so the fact that I, I knew of.
Reading the planner yearbooks over aperiod or seven years of coming to uh,
realize what a great historian he was.
There were several questionsthat I had about the early days,
(05:08):
specifically some of the early writers.
I didn't know a first name,he just an initial or nothing.
So very, very European and that forthose you here, I'm probably a number
of tangent that I'll do if auto car.
Or whatever it was.
And you go back sixties, 50forties, the drivers went by
(05:34):
because they first name here.
So anyway, I was curious as toif you might know who somebody
in World War One era were first.
So came back from the fifthPennsylvania and he answered the, uh,
the questions on a number of them.
So I can't say exactly what year that was.
(05:56):
Was probably 1962.
I was sort of, you know, on myway to eventually making the trip.
So I remember when I first arrivedat the track, and it's a whole
long story that he was one of thefirst people that I encountered.
And I remember that when I wentup and gave my name, he turned
around and I, he was probably,I don't know, five foot seven.
(06:19):
And as a friend of minewould describe a ground.
And, uh, he always had three, four camerason around his, a quick line on that, but
I wasn't even gonna tell it, just me.
But, uh, anyway, he was, hewore this white shirt, typically
never a tie turned around.
(06:41):
My name.
He sort of turned around and almostscooted attention and said, sir,
I am very pleased to meet you.
And uh, he apparently was, wastaken because of the fact that
I was asking about these followsfrom, uh, from the early days.
Well, from that point on, he becamevery important in my life as he
(07:03):
wasn't because started introducingme to a lot of the old time that.
Sitting there and knowabout what they look like.
White photographs and I meetingthree people in full color, those of
you that were familiar with Vital,he would take photographs of all
(07:25):
these people and then send them it.
Either give the person a print whennext saw him, which probably next
May, or he would send gifts and.
All time's.
So he had cameras, usuallythree or four, you know, one
in front, one down this side.
(07:47):
And somebody wants to ask him,why do you carry so many cameras?
And he said, well, this is four slides.
This is 35 millimeter in black and white.
And I can't remember what,what the third one was.
But anyway, the fourth one said, now thiscamera here is for those internal people
that come up and say, would you take.
(08:09):
So and so that has no film.
To move along a little bit, my firsttrip to the track was 1964, and it was
a three week holiday exploratory visit.
Things worked out so well that Ireturn the next year, five on a one
(08:32):
ticket curve and just flying blind,
which.
Nice Day Club.
A very gay man named Henry Bankshired me to work at usag, so
that's a whole nother story.
But Charles, I would come and spendthe great heart of the month, so I
spend a lot of time with him, go and soon, and wonderful, wonderful stories.
(08:59):
He had the connection with WatkinsGlen, that goes back to the very,
very beginning, and I'm not sureabout this, but I think he might
have been one of the original eight.
10 members of America when the first bomb.
I mean he was right in on the grandlevel and also involved with Blackman
(09:19):
Glen from the very start over a periodof years, of course, you history to up
on top of the eventually United Statesfree, and he was a part of all of that.
And I think his title was,he would say to, I had.
Free racing.
(09:39):
That's basically what I was raisedon, except that to me, going free
racing was two 50 s and Ferrariand, and, and then, you know, rear
engine and the whole thing up.
So anyway, I also like peopleto say, come to Rutland.
(10:02):
And I thought one and a half liter,rear inch, little, tiny little purge.
And they don't do Gary power slaveslike they used to, you know, Peter
Collins and Mike anymore, and castlobby and muo and course our governor.
It's just elite bricks driving aroundand these little pedal car things.
So,
(10:24):
but anyway, uh, so he would've saidyear after year come to do, come.
And so finally 19.
That I went up.
So I ended up, I was up here in72, 3, 4, and five, and not in 76.
Uh, I had a major conflict whereI, I wasn't even in the country,
(10:47):
and then 77 was the final.
But anyway, I came up the first yearand bro racing had changed quite a bit
from what I had fallen in love with.
But my guys were righthere and get to be in.
All in really the end of yet another erabecause although it seems dramatically,
(11:10):
there were still the private years.
And uh, for those of you, and I knowmany, I mean, I normally don't get into
this except that I know that so many ofyou have lived through this yourself.
So you come to Watkins Glen, thelittle village of Watkins Glen
for the Grand pri and uh, so wewent to where we were gonna get.
(11:33):
And I was thinking thatit was a high school.
St. Mary's, St. Mary's.
And, uh, so we, we, we droveby that, uh, by there last
time, the last couple of days.
And building looked familiar, but I wasthinking that we had gone down on another
street A little bit further is, um, thatwe went into this like a gymnasium with a
(11:57):
four just like this with card tables set.
The body heads.
And I think that there was, the basketballnets were hanging and this is where
you went to get your credentials.
Everybody.
And here's Jackie Stewart.
You know James Hunt, uh, because early,or, uh, now I'm getting myself in trouble,
(12:21):
but remember that, uh, I had met JackieStewart at several years before, so I
talking a little bit and then I rememberthat he was right in front of me and then
he turned around and then French came in.
And then stuck a finger in, in the backof his ribs and just did one of these.
And I thought, isn't this amazing?
Here's this little gymnasium andthe drivers of, of the world, Ronnie
(12:46):
Peterson, and, you know, uh, anduh, eggs and all these other people
are coming here together cred.
Then the other thing that wasjust amazing was when you went
out to big, it's the Kendall TechCenter is up on top of the hill.
And the general public are permitted to godown through the middle and out the other
(13:08):
side and all of the teams land up there.
There's no motive coaches,there's no $500,000 followers.
There's no sequestered awayfrom the general public.
There were all these phases, and Idon't dunno if this sound wrong, but
it was almost like it was the statefair and that all of the places where
(13:29):
the people would show their livestock.
It was everybody.
That was just astonishing to me, andI thought, I hope you people that are
doing this really appreciate it becauseI don't know that was gonna be like this.
I mean, even at the time I was astoundedthat, that it was still like that.
(13:53):
You know, sure enough, they, they had theline of people and uh, that they would
go through the tech center and Ferrari.
You know, the, the stewards and, and, uh,
and everybody, you know, because theywere all there and you sometimes you
see the drivers changing bottles and,uh, they're doing the driver, the deep
(14:16):
debriefing and there's guys sitting therein jack shorts and all with the engineers.
And I don't know that ifanybody had a computer there,
but I mean, there would be you.
The engineers have to clipboardand these discussions going.
Watch all of this.
And then the other thing too thatwe've been talking about a lot the last
(14:37):
few days was that how did the CARSsget from the tech center down to the
pits and from the pits back up to thetech center, the mechanics drove 'em.
And, and then we would hear thisengine would fire up and then he would,
uh, would be the car either going upthe hill at speed or down the hill.
(14:57):
And uh, more often than not, therewould be one or two other people.
Riding on the car, on the side carwould be the follow with the tool
chips hanging onto the mo car.
I have no idea what speeds theywere doing, but I mean they
had to be 70, 80 plus an hour.
And I was very surprised becausealready I was thinking that liability,
(15:21):
that people could just sort of standback at the side of the road and then
three or four were on pretty cars wouldcome up with the mechanic, no helmet,
an massive hair flying around the.
Just a similar color I stayedat, which was this place
with all kinds of character.
I, I'm supposed to betalking about Indianapolis,
(15:44):
what I state in the, the motelthat was out in the Charles.
I think that I stayed in room number one.
I know it was on the lower leveland I drove by there this morning.
Actually, the motel unit still there.
Then, uh, the Jefferson was thiswonderful place, and I dunno when that
(16:08):
was, but it was pretty 1900 I think.
Was it like maybe 1880s or 1840s?
1840s.
Okay.
Well, so when we were in there.
There were no carpets on the floors.
And, and I, I think that they servedfood in, in, uh, I think there were
two or three different rooms byfall and a hard floor, no carpets.
(16:30):
And they had these strange windowsand it really looked like, I mean, we
expected the ghost from blind skirtcome in the no power to come in.
You had those picture, you had RobWalker and, uh, everybody with the.
Were such that every clink of a plateor, or, uh, you know, when, when
(16:54):
anybody would get up and they wouldspray their chair and, uh, everybody
was on top of each other, just stickaround and, and see all these people.
I don't think any rider stayedthere except I know one year.
A right above me was Tom Price.
Not much is known about Tom Price, exceptthat because he was very, very quiet.
(17:17):
Well, not when he was walking around.
He wasn't never, ever in my lifestayed in a room or was ever in
any situation with the floor above.
Was somebody literally aroundand I mean, this was, you know,
over three, four day period.
(17:38):
Stamp, stamp, stamp, stampstand, and all the, everything.
But, uh, I went to a, a friend ofmine, I, I don't remember the first
time I went to the blame motor court.
I know this.
It's not that anymore.
And that, that's, that's, that's theblame motor court for some of this.
So I don't remember the firsttime that was in there for sure,
(18:01):
but I know that in 1975 was.
Station Indianapolis.
He was originally from Cape Cod.
That doesn't matter.
Being in several different radio stations.
Young guy, probably mid twenties, Isuppose, his radio life off him to
Indianapolis, so he's a 10 70 IBC.
(18:22):
I don't think he knew anything andsomebody took him out the fact one day and
fire going on and he met Johnny brother.
And then the next thing, hebecame a huge racing enthusiast
and it became a formula wind off.
It all happened in a hurry.
For some reason he hookedonto Nick Louder, and Nikki
louder then was just his God.
(18:44):
And so he and a lady friendwho was Kenner's wife, they
came up here in 80, in, in 75.
And I had come with Charles Lightbecause, and uh, I guess this is
getting a little more personal than Iplanned, but Charles Life, the final
year that he came up here was 1975.
(19:05):
And he was not able to drive anymore.
And it ended up that I was able torepay, you know, years and years
of, of favors by driving fromIndianapolis to she in Pennsylvania.
I picked him up.
And then, uh, wrote him up to wa Glenand stayed in the same room with 'em.
And, you know, basically was SteveUr was equally great because we
(19:29):
were allowed to park the car down atthe south end of the pit and store.
Their marsh would come by andChris Aon would come by and all
these people looking in the window.
And, uh, all I had to do was justsit there with Charles that time.
We were invited to dinner and, uh, sothis friend of mine and he said, uh, we're
gonna have dinner at the bland motor port.
(19:50):
And I thought, I said,good luck getting in there.
He said, no, I, I've checkedif we get there early enough,
we can get a good seat.
So.
I don't remember what time we gotthere, but it was probably like five
o'clock or five 30 or something.
The place was, I don't know, maybe halffull, but it was beginning to pick up.
I'm sure that probably many ofyou, if not all, have done the Glen
(20:13):
Motor Court experience and five.
Then it was amazing becausethen drivers stayed there.
I remember over in the corner,Carlos Waitman and Carlos were right
over in the corner, just the twoof them in very deep conversations.
Different people would come in and out.
I remember Jody Scheer came in ina tennis outfit with a rack and
(20:35):
he came in evidently looking forsomebody that wasn't in there.
And then he left and then comes in witha black leather jacket with the collar
turned up and which reminds me of another
1972.
It was almost very, very nice guy.
But he gave, had a little bit of amassive look about him and black jacket.
(20:57):
Collar turned up hands in his pockets.
And, um, he looked like he was lookingfor a fight while I, you know, he was
a really nice guy, but I remember that.
So, uh, there was a table vacant nextto us, and here's my friend Matt.
And we're looking at all these peoplecoming in and out and then all of sudden.
Oh, omega God.
Oh, omega God.
(21:18):
Oh my God.
The Champion game just came in and welooked up and here's Dick Louder, who
just arrived with another guy withhim that was Heinz Ula, who was an
author, I, anybody knows, name wrote.
And I think he did it.
Maybe a couple.
Matt is just completely, oh, okay.
(21:38):
He's in.
He's insane.
I'm insane.
Whatever.
What?
It got better because this vacanttable louder and Hanz Kohler sat
right next to us and Charles was soamused because to him, you know, the
great drivers were, uh, you know.
It yours below aChristian Uchin, Schlager.
(22:00):
You know anybody that's sort of come alongin, in the, in the forties and fifties
and sixties, he didn't take it seriously.
You know, Nick Lau was sort ofjust like the latest of the month
was gonna be gone in those time.
And then, so he was needling.
And I bring this up because for anyone,any of you who may have gone in, are
there people, in fact, that went intothe Glen Motor Court in the seventies?
(22:24):
I don't know if this is still thereor not, but right under where you
were sitting, there was a painting.
If anybody remember this, it is Nick Lauin a Ferrari, and I think there might have
been one other car instead of a racetrack.
It was sort of like onthe beach in faded light.
The tie come in in, doesanybody remember that?
(22:45):
It was the Ferrari with the, I don't knowwhat this guy was saying, but uh, but
it was actually with the, uh, it was anaction shop, so it looked like a Michael
Turner, but it wasn't a Michael Turner.
And he, and he splashedhim through this water.
So Louder was talking to Heinz coolerand, and at one point he sort of looks
(23:07):
up at the thing and then I was able tosay, why are you driving in the sea?
And so I don't remember what theresponse was, but anyway, it just
made that stay and I don't know.
Why I brought this up other than the,I'm just a horrendous name dropper.
Talking about the firstyear that I came out here.
(23:28):
It was great because Charlestook me to all these places.
I mean, had access to everything.
It was the Onyx Club at the time.
They had a champagne party there.
It was the last year.
They had done this for several years, butbecause of, uh, financial considerations
that ended up that this, it.
To the last one that they had.
(23:49):
They would in invite a lot ofparticipants to go to this thing.
I mean, it was very in and theOnyx Club to me, it, it was, so,
it was like going to a ski lodge.
It was the first week in October, soit would get dark, but like five 30
and it would be pitch black by seven.
And so here's.
(24:11):
Everybody under this party.
And I remember, uh, Ron AK was thereand Sam Cozy, and on and on and on.
Anyway, the Ferrari team were detainedbecause they were having a debriefing.
And I'll never forget this.
I just happened to be standing bythe door and all was opening, and
it was a little bit, Nicky, youknow, it would get frosty up here.
(24:34):
And so Carney is now in full swing.
And here came the three Ferraridrivers, and I'll never forget this.
It was, uh, Jackie s Re, and Mariowith a Ferrari team, and they
arrived from their debriefing.
They still had the uniform on.
And then the Fred Ferrari Firestonejackets and we thought collar
(24:57):
turned out and they stood there.
And you know, when Mario entered herroom, not the tallest guy that has ever
been, but he had a presence about him.
I've been in several situations whereMario comes in and everything stops.
And there's written, there's nopunchline to this except that he
would come into a room as he didthat night and he would stand there.
(25:19):
And it reminded me of Jack Counts in.
Mario didn't attack their pistols,he would stand there and just kind of
go, was on, they would just come intothe room and kind of stand, make this
with the polish turned up.
Anyway, I'll, so just these littleimages, I am gonna move on, but
(25:42):
I'll give you a couple more images.
That one that was just given to meby the son of the famous name, will
Shaw had a son, bill Shaw, and.
Of you may have ever hada connection with him.
Uh, he's actually Warren Wilber.
He's just a delightful person and he didrace for a while, all posted going to
(26:05):
Ramon in sometime in the early seventies.
He was an instructor for Bob Bondfor several years, so some of
you may have run into him there.
But, uh, anyway, he's lived in theIndianapolis area for number years now,
so I told him what he needed coming.
About a week ago andhe said, wow, the Glen.
(26:27):
I said, did you ever run up there?
And he said, no.
But he said, I actually went thereonce And he said, I went with a
student of mine who was gonna run inan SECA regional, and he said he was
working in Washington at the time.
He said, I went in there and eventhough though it was a regional meet,
(26:47):
he said I got, I started gettingimages of what had gone before and he
said I had these flashes of grab 'em,obscure and Clark, and he said, I've
never been there before, but he saidit was really kind of overwhelming.
He said, I could hear thesounds, the smell, the smells.
And, uh, he said, I said, I gotgoosebumps thinking about it.
(27:10):
He said, yeah.
He said, I got goosebumps then.
And I got goosebumps nowjust talking about it.
This is just like a week ago.
And I said, I know exactly what you mean.
And he kept saying, wow.
Wow.
So, and, and when, when this was,I have no idea, but I mean now,
might have been 30 years ago.
So, you know, the place hasthis wonderful presence.
(27:30):
I got a little blank story totell here after some of the
opinions expressed herein.
May not necessarily bethose of the management.
A blank story, and I don't know if thisis true or not, and I do nothing to.
Be a negative about the place.
But I do remember the smoke in1974 rising from a, an infamous
(27:56):
area that, uh, that probably thelocals were driving not talk about.
I get asked about the state, but theracetrack all the time, and I know that
the locals just assume, not acknowledgethat there had ever been the bob.
But anyway, the reason for bringing thatup was that the first year that I was
up here, it rained a lot and I. By howlarge the crowd was, but also the makeup.
(28:23):
I mean, you would hear the foreignaccents, so obviously there were people
that were comfortable overseas and thenyou had to fall overseas that lived here.
But then also there seemed to be a lotof college types, and I saw fatigue
jackets, I saw long hair, and I saw anumber of couples where the male and the
(28:43):
female was joined by a piece of twine or.
Remember that not making it up.
And you'd see the guy would have a,a wine bottle and there would be like
a piece of twine around his wrist.
And that the lady friend who was alsowearing, uh, Danni and uh, and Pete would
be, you know, a few feet preferred a mine.
(29:06):
Anybody.
I'm not making that up.
Which I think was probably 73, 7 4.
I didn't read this on Wikipediaor get it on a blog years later.
I remember at the time the storywas that there was a well to do
(29:29):
person, uh, involved with a team.
They wanted a team member.
They were like a go.
They were huge and eager to doanything that needed to be done.
So one of the teams needed somethingthat the fellow said, I can get it.
And he went down to thevillage and it's at night.
So he went down to the village inthis very expensive automobile and
(29:51):
he comes back, he got lost and he'sat the circuit, but he couldn't find
his way to the Campbell tech center.
And he's driving around and he'sdriving around and he gets over into
the block area with all thousands of.
And so he's going down this littleroad and, and everybody's sort of,
kind of just sw walking back and forth,you know, the bonfires are gone and
(30:15):
the, the parties are in full swing.
He, his progress is being impeded for the,gets to the point where he stopped and
so they start making a big fuss at thiscar and they're banging on the roof and
then they start rocking the car at night.
Panic some things.
I better get out of here.
So he gets on with thro and as he takesoff, he feels a bump and he thinks,
(30:39):
oh my God, I think I've maneuver one.
So he keeps going and he thought,well, I have to report this
to the, uh, to the police.
So he drove around towherever the police were.
And it seems to me that there was thislittle cinder block building with,
uh, you know, a piece of wire with a,you know, naked light bulb in there.
(30:59):
So the guy comes back, sees thisbuilding, goes in there and there's
like three policemen sitting in there.
So he said, I wanna report something.
Uh, he said, I think I ran over somebody.
And, uh, so they don'tmove particularly and.
It was over in the back where allof the, uh, you know, where all
(31:22):
the hot camps are, and they said,did you get a look at the person?
And they, he said, well, no, becausethey looked the same all Glen
jacket.
But I think that I. And so theysaid, ah, don't worry about it.
We'll find it in the morning.
Or, I dunno if that's true or not, but II probably should have called that story.
(31:44):
Alright,
let's, uh, we need to be talking about theIndianapolis people Get into that yet, so.
I mean, to come to the Glen, havethose experiences in in 7 3, 7 3,
7 4, and then drive around todayand then see how will those change.
But you know, the Glen Motor Court namedSubtle Change, but it's still there.
(32:07):
I actually pulled to the parkinglot and just sat there and,
and just reed a little bit.
And I went by, you know, the Jeffersonis gone, but the motel units are, are out
in Maxville and they were green, brown.
But I actually sat there.
On both sides of the roadand, and just, uh, nossal.
(32:35):
This episode is brought to youin part by the International
Motor Racing Research Center.
Its charter is to collect,share, and preserve the history
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(32:59):
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To learn more about the center,visit www.racing archives.org.
(33:23):
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(33:47):
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And remember, without you,none of this would be possible.
We always have a blast chatting withour guests about all sorts of different
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As a bonus, let's go behind thescenes with this pit stop mini
episode for some extra content thatdidn't quite fit in the main episode.
Sit back and enjoy andremember to like, subscribe and
(00:20):
support break fix on Patreon.
In this pit stop Mini.
So we return to Donald cDavidson's Storytelling with
a nostalgic return to Watkins.
Glenn reminiscing about his first visitin 1972 and subsequent visits until 1977.
Donald shares detailed stories aboutearly experiences at the US Grand
(00:41):
Prix interactions with legendarydrivers like Jackie Stewart and Nikki
Lauda, and the unique culture ofthe racing community at that time.
His anecdotes highlight thecamaraderie among drivers and fans.
And Donald vividly recalls the vibrantatmosphere at events such as those held
throughout the village and the track.
He also reflects on the unchangedcharm of the area, despite the passage
(01:02):
of time and shares, humorous andpoignant incidents from the heyday
of Formula One at Watkins Glen.
It's really a kit to be here.
It's kind of a pinch me situation toactually be returning to Rock Glen.
I've never been to the research librarybefore because my years at the Glen
far seed, the research library, firsttime I came out here was in 1972, and
(01:26):
the most recent time that I've beenhere private this weekend was 1977.
And it came about because of the factthat one of my mentors, a gentleman who
I had read because he wrote some, a greathistorian by the name of Charles Life, and
I know he's very, very important to the.
(01:48):
And then I think probably themajority of you are either at least
familiar with him and maybe someof you had interaction with him.
He was an extraordinary gentlemanfrom Sharon, Pennsylvania.
With all due respect to everybody,of all the people that I ever met,
I felt that he was the best of thehistorians of the very early days.
(02:12):
Although he was American, he wasvery English in his whole approach.
Uh, the way that he.
Spoke and the fact that he had a greataffection to do it and solve operas and,
and, uh, married a British lady, very,very British in his whole approach.
A delight for gentleman and hewas interested in Indianapolis
and went back there for years.
(02:34):
But he was real in, was sort of like theroad racing types of the very early days
and he made a number of trips to Europe.
I dunno when the first onewould be, but certainly late.
Mid 50.
He went to Europe severaltimes and he would go and visit
(02:55):
drivers who had participated.
You know, I'm not talking just beforeWorld War I, I'm talking to city Racers
because he was an expert on Paris toMadrid and Paris and all, and he would
show me these photographs and or whoever.
He had all the, on all these people.
(03:18):
Participated in 1898 and then, uh,through the, the very early 19 hundreds.
So just extraordinary hand.
But anyway, I had written to him privatemeeting, my first trip to Indianapolis.
I wrote to probably a half a dozen people.
And, uh, one of the questionsthat I, because I would, I would
(03:39):
read the climb year book yearwith the section in the back.
Where there would be a little briefstory by Charles Light, and then these
photographs that typically would've 2,3, 4, 5 people lined up to this day.
I can spot a rifle of print across theroom because know they had their own
(04:01):
particular stamp on 'em, and what hedid was to take photographs of veterans.
It was wonderful to be able tosee what these people looked like.
Long before there was a 500timers flood at the track, but
that wasn't formed until 1961.
But the Speedway was always a gatheringplace for all of these people and
(04:22):
that they were welcome with open arms.
But if you drove 25 years agoonce and finished glass, you
were welcome with open arms.
And so everybody would come back andsome of them just come for a few days.
Others would spend the entire month,they'd bring scrap books, puddle
album, just a huge gathering, you know,camaraderie amongst people that have
(04:44):
run 15, 20, 30, 40, 50 years before.
And Charlotte recall this on film.
And so the fact that I, I knew of.
Reading the planner yearbooks over aperiod or seven years of coming to uh,
realize what a great historian he was.
There were several questionsthat I had about the early days,
(05:08):
specifically some of the early writers.
I didn't know a first name,he just an initial or nothing.
So very, very European and that forthose you here, I'm probably a number
of tangent that I'll do if auto car.
Or whatever it was.
And you go back sixties, 50forties, the drivers went by
(05:34):
because they first name here.
So anyway, I was curious as toif you might know who somebody
in World War One era were first.
So came back from the fifthPennsylvania and he answered the, uh,
the questions on a number of them.
So I can't say exactly what year that was.
(05:56):
Was probably 1962.
I was sort of, you know, on myway to eventually making the trip.
So I remember when I first arrivedat the track, and it's a whole
long story that he was one of thefirst people that I encountered.
And I remember that when I wentup and gave my name, he turned
around and I, he was probably,I don't know, five foot seven.
(06:19):
And as a friend of minewould describe a ground.
And, uh, he always had three, four camerason around his, a quick line on that, but
I wasn't even gonna tell it, just me.
But, uh, anyway, he was, hewore this white shirt, typically
never a tie turned around.
(06:41):
My name.
He sort of turned around and almostscooted attention and said, sir,
I am very pleased to meet you.
And uh, he apparently was, wastaken because of the fact that
I was asking about these followsfrom, uh, from the early days.
Well, from that point on, he becamevery important in my life as he
(07:03):
wasn't because started introducingme to a lot of the old time that.
Sitting there and knowabout what they look like.
White photographs and I meetingthree people in full color, those of
you that were familiar with Vital,he would take photographs of all
(07:25):
these people and then send them it.
Either give the person a print whennext saw him, which probably next
May, or he would send gifts and.
All time's.
So he had cameras, usuallythree or four, you know, one
in front, one down this side.
(07:47):
And somebody wants to ask him,why do you carry so many cameras?
And he said, well, this is four slides.
This is 35 millimeter in black and white.
And I can't remember what,what the third one was.
But anyway, the fourth one said, now thiscamera here is for those internal people
that come up and say, would you take.
(08:09):
So and so that has no film.
To move along a little bit, my firsttrip to the track was 1964, and it was
a three week holiday exploratory visit.
Things worked out so well that Ireturn the next year, five on a one
(08:32):
ticket curve and just flying blind,
which.
Nice Day Club.
A very gay man named Henry Bankshired me to work at usag, so
that's a whole nother story.
But Charles, I would come and spendthe great heart of the month, so I
spend a lot of time with him, go and soon, and wonderful, wonderful stories.
(08:59):
He had the connection with WatkinsGlen, that goes back to the very,
very beginning, and I'm not sureabout this, but I think he might
have been one of the original eight.
10 members of America when the first bomb.
I mean he was right in on the grandlevel and also involved with Blackman
(09:19):
Glen from the very start over a periodof years, of course, you history to up
on top of the eventually United Statesfree, and he was a part of all of that.
And I think his title was,he would say to, I had.
Free racing.
(09:39):
That's basically what I was raisedon, except that to me, going free
racing was two 50 s and Ferrariand, and, and then, you know, rear
engine and the whole thing up.
So anyway, I also like peopleto say, come to Rutland.
(10:02):
And I thought one and a half liter,rear inch, little, tiny little purge.
And they don't do Gary power slaveslike they used to, you know, Peter
Collins and Mike anymore, and castlobby and muo and course our governor.
It's just elite bricks driving aroundand these little pedal car things.
So,
(10:24):
but anyway, uh, so he would've saidyear after year come to do, come.
And so finally 19.
That I went up.
So I ended up, I was up here in72, 3, 4, and five, and not in 76.
Uh, I had a major conflict whereI, I wasn't even in the country,
(10:47):
and then 77 was the final.
But anyway, I came up the first yearand bro racing had changed quite a bit
from what I had fallen in love with.
But my guys were righthere and get to be in.
All in really the end of yet another erabecause although it seems dramatically,
(11:10):
there were still the private years.
And uh, for those of you, and I knowmany, I mean, I normally don't get into
this except that I know that so many ofyou have lived through this yourself.
So you come to Watkins Glen, thelittle village of Watkins Glen
for the Grand pri and uh, so wewent to where we were gonna get.
(11:33):
And I was thinking thatit was a high school.
St. Mary's, St. Mary's.
And, uh, so we, we, we droveby that, uh, by there last
time, the last couple of days.
And building looked familiar, but I wasthinking that we had gone down on another
street A little bit further is, um, thatwe went into this like a gymnasium with a
(11:57):
four just like this with card tables set.
The body heads.
And I think that there was, the basketballnets were hanging and this is where
you went to get your credentials.
Everybody.
And here's Jackie Stewart.
You know James Hunt, uh, because early,or, uh, now I'm getting myself in trouble,
(12:21):
but remember that, uh, I had met JackieStewart at several years before, so I
talking a little bit and then I rememberthat he was right in front of me and then
he turned around and then French came in.
And then stuck a finger in, in the backof his ribs and just did one of these.
And I thought, isn't this amazing?
Here's this little gymnasium andthe drivers of, of the world, Ronnie
(12:46):
Peterson, and, you know, uh, anduh, eggs and all these other people
are coming here together cred.
Then the other thing that wasjust amazing was when you went
out to big, it's the Kendall TechCenter is up on top of the hill.
And the general public are permitted to godown through the middle and out the other
(13:08):
side and all of the teams land up there.
There's no motive coaches,there's no $500,000 followers.
There's no sequestered awayfrom the general public.
There were all these phases, and Idon't dunno if this sound wrong, but
it was almost like it was the statefair and that all of the places where
(13:29):
the people would show their livestock.
It was everybody.
That was just astonishing to me, andI thought, I hope you people that are
doing this really appreciate it becauseI don't know that was gonna be like this.
I mean, even at the time I was astoundedthat, that it was still like that.
(13:53):
You know, sure enough, they, they had theline of people and uh, that they would
go through the tech center and Ferrari.
You know, the, the stewards and, and, uh,
and everybody, you know, because theywere all there and you sometimes you
see the drivers changing bottles and,uh, they're doing the driver, the deep
(14:16):
debriefing and there's guys sitting therein jack shorts and all with the engineers.
And I don't know that ifanybody had a computer there,
but I mean, there would be you.
The engineers have to clipboardand these discussions going.
Watch all of this.
And then the other thing too thatwe've been talking about a lot the last
(14:37):
few days was that how did the CARSsget from the tech center down to the
pits and from the pits back up to thetech center, the mechanics drove 'em.
And, and then we would hear thisengine would fire up and then he would,
uh, would be the car either going upthe hill at speed or down the hill.
(14:57):
And uh, more often than not, therewould be one or two other people.
Riding on the car, on the side carwould be the follow with the tool
chips hanging onto the mo car.
I have no idea what speeds theywere doing, but I mean they
had to be 70, 80 plus an hour.
And I was very surprised becausealready I was thinking that liability,
(15:21):
that people could just sort of standback at the side of the road and then
three or four were on pretty cars wouldcome up with the mechanic, no helmet,
an massive hair flying around the.
Just a similar color I stayedat, which was this place
with all kinds of character.
I, I'm supposed to betalking about Indianapolis,
(15:44):
what I state in the, the motelthat was out in the Charles.
I think that I stayed in room number one.
I know it was on the lower leveland I drove by there this morning.
Actually, the motel unit still there.
Then, uh, the Jefferson was thiswonderful place, and I dunno when that
(16:08):
was, but it was pretty 1900 I think.
Was it like maybe 1880s or 1840s?
1840s.
Okay.
Well, so when we were in there.
There were no carpets on the floors.
And, and I, I think that they servedfood in, in, uh, I think there were
two or three different rooms byfall and a hard floor, no carpets.
(16:30):
And they had these strange windowsand it really looked like, I mean, we
expected the ghost from blind skirtcome in the no power to come in.
You had those picture, you had RobWalker and, uh, everybody with the.
Were such that every clink of a plateor, or, uh, you know, when, when
(16:54):
anybody would get up and they wouldspray their chair and, uh, everybody
was on top of each other, just stickaround and, and see all these people.
I don't think any rider stayedthere except I know one year.
A right above me was Tom Price.
Not much is known about Tom Price, exceptthat because he was very, very quiet.
(17:17):
Well, not when he was walking around.
He wasn't never, ever in my lifestayed in a room or was ever in
any situation with the floor above.
Was somebody literally aroundand I mean, this was, you know,
over three, four day period.
(17:38):
Stamp, stamp, stamp, stampstand, and all the, everything.
But, uh, I went to a, a friend ofmine, I, I don't remember the first
time I went to the blame motor court.
I know this.
It's not that anymore.
And that, that's, that's, that's theblame motor court for some of this.
So I don't remember the firsttime that was in there for sure,
(18:01):
but I know that in 1975 was.
Station Indianapolis.
He was originally from Cape Cod.
That doesn't matter.
Being in several different radio stations.
Young guy, probably mid twenties, Isuppose, his radio life off him to
Indianapolis, so he's a 10 70 IBC.
(18:22):
I don't think he knew anything andsomebody took him out the fact one day and
fire going on and he met Johnny brother.
And then the next thing, hebecame a huge racing enthusiast
and it became a formula wind off.
It all happened in a hurry.
For some reason he hookedonto Nick Louder, and Nikki
louder then was just his God.
(18:44):
And so he and a lady friendwho was Kenner's wife, they
came up here in 80, in, in 75.
And I had come with Charles Lightbecause, and uh, I guess this is
getting a little more personal than Iplanned, but Charles Life, the final
year that he came up here was 1975.
(19:05):
And he was not able to drive anymore.
And it ended up that I was able torepay, you know, years and years
of, of favors by driving fromIndianapolis to she in Pennsylvania.
I picked him up.
And then, uh, wrote him up to wa Glenand stayed in the same room with 'em.
And, you know, basically was SteveUr was equally great because we
(19:29):
were allowed to park the car down atthe south end of the pit and store.
Their marsh would come by andChris Aon would come by and all
these people looking in the window.
And, uh, all I had to do was justsit there with Charles that time.
We were invited to dinner and, uh, sothis friend of mine and he said, uh, we're
gonna have dinner at the bland motor port.
(19:50):
And I thought, I said,good luck getting in there.
He said, no, I, I've checkedif we get there early enough,
we can get a good seat.
So.
I don't remember what time we gotthere, but it was probably like five
o'clock or five 30 or something.
The place was, I don't know, maybe halffull, but it was beginning to pick up.
I'm sure that probably many ofyou, if not all, have done the Glen
(20:13):
Motor Court experience and five.
Then it was amazing becausethen drivers stayed there.
I remember over in the corner,Carlos Waitman and Carlos were right
over in the corner, just the twoof them in very deep conversations.
Different people would come in and out.
I remember Jody Scheer came in ina tennis outfit with a rack and
(20:35):
he came in evidently looking forsomebody that wasn't in there.
And then he left and then comes in witha black leather jacket with the collar
turned up and which reminds me of another
1972.
It was almost very, very nice guy.
But he gave, had a little bit of amassive look about him and black jacket.
(20:57):
Collar turned up hands in his pockets.
And, um, he looked like he was lookingfor a fight while I, you know, he was
a really nice guy, but I remember that.
So, uh, there was a table vacant nextto us, and here's my friend Matt.
And we're looking at all these peoplecoming in and out and then all of sudden.
Oh, omega God.
Oh, omega God.
(21:18):
Oh my God.
The Champion game just came in and welooked up and here's Dick Louder, who
just arrived with another guy withhim that was Heinz Ula, who was an
author, I, anybody knows, name wrote.
And I think he did it.
Maybe a couple.
Matt is just completely, oh, okay.
(21:38):
He's in.
He's insane.
I'm insane.
Whatever.
What?
It got better because this vacanttable louder and Hanz Kohler sat
right next to us and Charles was soamused because to him, you know, the
great drivers were, uh, you know.
It yours below aChristian Uchin, Schlager.
(22:00):
You know anybody that's sort of come alongin, in the, in the forties and fifties
and sixties, he didn't take it seriously.
You know, Nick Lau was sort ofjust like the latest of the month
was gonna be gone in those time.
And then, so he was needling.
And I bring this up because for anyone,any of you who may have gone in, are
there people, in fact, that went intothe Glen Motor Court in the seventies?
(22:24):
I don't know if this is still thereor not, but right under where you
were sitting, there was a painting.
If anybody remember this, it is Nick Lauin a Ferrari, and I think there might have
been one other car instead of a racetrack.
It was sort of like onthe beach in faded light.
The tie come in in, doesanybody remember that?
(22:45):
It was the Ferrari with the, I don't knowwhat this guy was saying, but uh, but
it was actually with the, uh, it was anaction shop, so it looked like a Michael
Turner, but it wasn't a Michael Turner.
And he, and he splashedhim through this water.
So Louder was talking to Heinz coolerand, and at one point he sort of looks
(23:07):
up at the thing and then I was able tosay, why are you driving in the sea?
And so I don't remember what theresponse was, but anyway, it just
made that stay and I don't know.
Why I brought this up other than the,I'm just a horrendous name dropper.
Talking about the firstyear that I came out here.
(23:28):
It was great because Charlestook me to all these places.
I mean, had access to everything.
It was the Onyx Club at the time.
They had a champagne party there.
It was the last year.
They had done this for several years, butbecause of, uh, financial considerations
that ended up that this, it.
To the last one that they had.
(23:49):
They would in invite a lot ofparticipants to go to this thing.
I mean, it was very in and theOnyx Club to me, it, it was, so,
it was like going to a ski lodge.
It was the first week in October, soit would get dark, but like five 30
and it would be pitch black by seven.
And so here's.
(24:11):
Everybody under this party.
And I remember, uh, Ron AK was thereand Sam Cozy, and on and on and on.
Anyway, the Ferrari team were detainedbecause they were having a debriefing.
And I'll never forget this.
I just happened to be standing bythe door and all was opening, and
it was a little bit, Nicky, youknow, it would get frosty up here.
(24:34):
And so Carney is now in full swing.
And here came the three Ferraridrivers, and I'll never forget this.
It was, uh, Jackie s Re, and Mariowith a Ferrari team, and they
arrived from their debriefing.
They still had the uniform on.
And then the Fred Ferrari Firestonejackets and we thought collar
(24:57):
turned out and they stood there.
And you know, when Mario entered herroom, not the tallest guy that has ever
been, but he had a presence about him.
I've been in several situations whereMario comes in and everything stops.
And there's written, there's nopunchline to this except that he
would come into a room as he didthat night and he would stand there.
(25:19):
And it reminded me of Jack Counts in.
Mario didn't attack their pistols,he would stand there and just kind of
go, was on, they would just come intothe room and kind of stand, make this
with the polish turned up.
Anyway, I'll, so just these littleimages, I am gonna move on, but
(25:42):
I'll give you a couple more images.
That one that was just given to meby the son of the famous name, will
Shaw had a son, bill Shaw, and.
Of you may have ever hada connection with him.
Uh, he's actually Warren Wilber.
He's just a delightful person and he didrace for a while, all posted going to
(26:05):
Ramon in sometime in the early seventies.
He was an instructor for Bob Bondfor several years, so some of
you may have run into him there.
But, uh, anyway, he's lived in theIndianapolis area for number years now,
so I told him what he needed coming.
About a week ago andhe said, wow, the Glen.
(26:27):
I said, did you ever run up there?
And he said, no.
But he said, I actually went thereonce And he said, I went with a
student of mine who was gonna run inan SECA regional, and he said he was
working in Washington at the time.
He said, I went in there and eventhough though it was a regional meet,
(26:47):
he said I got, I started gettingimages of what had gone before and he
said I had these flashes of grab 'em,obscure and Clark, and he said, I've
never been there before, but he saidit was really kind of overwhelming.
He said, I could hear thesounds, the smell, the smells.
And, uh, he said, I said, I gotgoosebumps thinking about it.
(27:10):
He said, yeah.
He said, I got goosebumps then.
And I got goosebumps nowjust talking about it.
This is just like a week ago.
And I said, I know exactly what you mean.
And he kept saying, wow.
Wow.
So, and, and when, when this was,I have no idea, but I mean now,
might have been 30 years ago.
So, you know, the place hasthis wonderful presence.
(27:30):
I got a little blank story totell here after some of the
opinions expressed herein.
May not necessarily bethose of the management.
A blank story, and I don't know if thisis true or not, and I do nothing to.
Be a negative about the place.
But I do remember the smoke in1974 rising from a, an infamous
(27:56):
area that, uh, that probably thelocals were driving not talk about.
I get asked about the state, but theracetrack all the time, and I know that
the locals just assume, not acknowledgethat there had ever been the bob.
But anyway, the reason for bringing thatup was that the first year that I was
up here, it rained a lot and I. By howlarge the crowd was, but also the makeup.
(28:23):
I mean, you would hear the foreignaccents, so obviously there were people
that were comfortable overseas and thenyou had to fall overseas that lived here.
But then also there seemed to be a lotof college types, and I saw fatigue
jackets, I saw long hair, and I saw anumber of couples where the male and the
(28:43):
female was joined by a piece of twine or.
Remember that not making it up.
And you'd see the guy would have a,a wine bottle and there would be like
a piece of twine around his wrist.
And that the lady friend who was alsowearing, uh, Danni and uh, and Pete would
be, you know, a few feet preferred a mine.
(29:06):
Anybody.
I'm not making that up.
Which I think was probably 73, 7 4.
I didn't read this on Wikipediaor get it on a blog years later.
I remember at the time the storywas that there was a well to do
(29:29):
person, uh, involved with a team.
They wanted a team member.
They were like a go.
They were huge and eager to doanything that needed to be done.
So one of the teams needed somethingthat the fellow said, I can get it.
And he went down to thevillage and it's at night.
So he went down to the village inthis very expensive automobile and
(29:51):
he comes back, he got lost and he'sat the circuit, but he couldn't find
his way to the Campbell tech center.
And he's driving around and he'sdriving around and he gets over into
the block area with all thousands of.
And so he's going down this littleroad and, and everybody's sort of,
kind of just sw walking back and forth,you know, the bonfires are gone and
(30:15):
the, the parties are in full swing.
He, his progress is being impeded for the,gets to the point where he stopped and
so they start making a big fuss at thiscar and they're banging on the roof and
then they start rocking the car at night.
Panic some things.
I better get out of here.
So he gets on with thro and as he takesoff, he feels a bump and he thinks,
(30:39):
oh my God, I think I've maneuver one.
So he keeps going and he thought,well, I have to report this
to the, uh, to the police.
So he drove around towherever the police were.
And it seems to me that there was thislittle cinder block building with,
uh, you know, a piece of wire with a,you know, naked light bulb in there.
(30:59):
So the guy comes back, sees thisbuilding, goes in there and there's
like three policemen sitting in there.
So he said, I wanna report something.
Uh, he said, I think I ran over somebody.
And, uh, so they don'tmove particularly and.
It was over in the back where allof the, uh, you know, where all
(31:22):
the hot camps are, and they said,did you get a look at the person?
And they, he said, well, no, becausethey looked the same all Glen
jacket.
But I think that I. And so theysaid, ah, don't worry about it.
We'll find it in the morning.
Or, I dunno if that's true or not, but II probably should have called that story.
(31:44):
Alright,
let's, uh, we need to be talking about theIndianapolis people Get into that yet, so.
I mean, to come to the Glen, havethose experiences in in 7 3, 7 3,
7 4, and then drive around todayand then see how will those change.
But you know, the Glen Motor Court namedSubtle Change, but it's still there.
(32:07):
I actually pulled to the parkinglot and just sat there and,
and just reed a little bit.
And I went by, you know, the Jeffersonis gone, but the motel units are, are out
in Maxville and they were green, brown.
But I actually sat there.
On both sides of the roadand, and just, uh, nossal.
(32:35):
This episode is brought to youin part by the International
Motor Racing Research Center.
Its charter is to collect,share, and preserve the history
of motor sports spanningcontinents, eras, and race series.
The Center's collection embodiesthe speed, drama and camaraderie
of amateur and professional motorracing throughout the world.
(32:59):
The center welcomes serious researchersand casual fans alike to share stories
of race drivers race series, and racecars captured on their shelves and
walls, and brought to life through aregular calendar of public lectures.
And special events.
To learn more about the center,visit www.racing archives.org.
(33:23):
This episode is also brought to you bythe Society of Automotive Historians.
They encourage research into anyaspect of automotive history.
The SAH actively supports the compilationand preservation of papers, organizational
records, print ephemera, and images.
To safeguard as well as to broaden anddeepen the understanding of motorized
(33:47):
wheeled land transportation throughthe modern age and into the future.
For more information about theSAH, visit www.auto history.org.
We hope you enjoyed another awesomeepisode of Break Fix Podcasts, brought
to you by Grand Tour Motorsports.
(34:09):
If you'd like to be a guest onthe show or get involved, be sure
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And if you'd like to learn moreabout the content of this episode,
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