The Racers Roundtable: The Golden Era of Gassers

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to The Racers Roundtable, apodcast sponsored by the Eastern Museum
of Motor Racing where history meetshorsepower and legends live on each
episode brings together voices from acrossthe motor sports world, from grassroots
heroes to seasoned veterans as they sharestories, insights, and behind the scenes
tales that shaped their racing journeys.

(00:21):
Whether you're a diehard fan of dirttracks, drag strips, or open wheel icons,
the racer's round table is your seat atthe table for candid conversations and
timeless memories from those who lived it.
Strap in tight because it's time to talk.
Racing history, one lap at a time.

(00:43):
I wanna introduce our panel here.
I guess I'll start to the right here.
Thelma Hall, and she's gonna tellus stories about the good old days.
Then we got Fred Baird.
Now everybody knows Freddy becausehe's old as dirt, and next to
next to him is Thelma's son Ken.
Now Ken is a twin, the Michael and Ken.

(01:05):
But Michael couldn't come todaybecause of work issues next to me
is none other than Greg Swenson.
He's a local guy.
He's got the car out there, and onthe end is another old guy like me.
That's Ken Bingham.
We're gonna start this way and then I'mgonna have the guys talk about the cars
where they got 'em and the history album.
I just want you to all know I talkedto Fred at Bruce Larson's drag Fest.

(01:30):
He said, you ought to haveGene Ty's car up in the museum.
I said, yeah, ought to.
And he said, well, I have it.
He said, so over the courseof the end of the year and the
beginning, we talked back and forth.
And decide.
We had room for it.
We wanted to do it.
We were gonna go with this theme ortopic, and I want you to all know that
Fred brought the car from Florida.

(01:53):
Give him a hand.
He hauled it up.
And when we originally made the, madethe arrangements, he was gonna bring
it up last week and then light come on.
I said, well, why don't you bringit up like the Friday before our
open house and then you can hangaround and talk on the panel.
So that's what we did.
So we got Fred to thank for thatcar being here, which was a very,

(02:14):
very famous car in the East Coastand I'm just so tickled to have it.
In the meantime, I wanna thank you allfor coming out and sticking around.
This is gonna be exciting.
Fred, tell us about theorigin of the Gasser class.
It kind of evolved as the sportevolved in the early fifties, and

(02:35):
it became obvious that some cars.
We're completely stuck.
Some of us weren't, so it reallywasn't fair as everything was heads up.
A Christmas tree was something thatshowed up in your house once a year.
So they started a modified class,which suddenly people like, what's

(03:00):
that guy from Florida Garbage.
He started, couldn't afford a whole car,so he started building little teeny things
then that wasn't fair to run against him.
So they started classesand they got refined.
When did we start modified production?
I think early sixties.

(03:21):
Early sixties?
Yeah, early sixties.
I still miss it because nowthe Gassers were race cars.
They'd started out to be passtheir own modified street cars.
Now they weren't.
So there was a void now betweenGassers, which were really
race cars and strictly stocks.
So they did in modified productionand depending on the track, but it

(03:46):
was limited to one four barrel batteryignition engine make for the body style.
And it was fair rules.
Boy, there was some badass cars atYork in the highway classes back then.
I always came on, I'm alittle younger than you.
I came on Honda, little behind.
But of course I lookedat my hot rod magazine.

(04:06):
To me, if you took the frontbumper off, it became a guesser.
Is that that Pretty true?
And a threequarter cam, whatever athreequarter cam is, means nobody had,
nobody ever explained that becauseit seems like in a V eight, only
12 valves would open and close ifyou had a three quarter cam anyway.

(04:27):
Yeah, you.
Did that and it just evolved, you know?
Yeah.
Something about drag rusheshave always wanted to go faster.
It's part of the sport and you takeweight off the front end, it puts more
traction on the rear tires and, andthen somebody figured out, well, let's
move the engine back a little bit.
Yeah.

(04:47):
So that for the wait over thatcame to a new rule called 10%.
So it all evolved.
Thank God for gentleman named Wiley Parks.
It had the foresight to organize it.
If you only be there now, I don'tknow where it would've gone.
I don't know where.
NASCAR would never probably existed ifit hadn't have been for Mr. Bill France.

(05:10):
I have the most respect in theworld for those two gentlemen.
Gene Ty's car that Fredhauled up from Florida.
It's down in our drag racing area.
Behind it is a showcase with some ofgene's, race pictures and some of things.
The intake down there, he was thefirst one to divine that and figure

(05:32):
it out and everybody copied itbecause he didn't have time to patent
it, so everybody else copied him.
But it's, it was a one off dealdown there, so it's in the showcase
behind, so when you get done, you getintermission or something, be sure to
go down and check that stuff becauseit's really neat and I'm just so proud
to have it and have the car here.
I wish we could have Gene here,but he has health problems

(05:54):
and he couldn't make the drip.
Bill Klein brought us thearchive stuff down there.
He, uh, from his collection, which Ididn't know, Fred actually owns the car
and maintains the car for Gene, so thecar wouldn't be here without Judy's help.
She is.
The best help that I've ever had and worksfor less pay than anybody I've ever had.

(06:14):
And he needs a lot ofhelp and puts up with me.
The only person that's put up withme more than she has with my mother.
May she rest in peace and Ithink she died to get some rest.

(06:35):
So thank you all forthe applause for Judy.
And if the car sparkles, youhave to thank her because I
don't clean cars, I paint 'em.
She does a beautiful job.
She spent two days cleaning jean'scar inside, underneath in the trunk.

(06:55):
She cleaned everything in that carbecause it's going to the museum.
I want it to look nice.
And when it arrived, we were down theretrying to get his position and set the
stanchions up and she was still polishing.
Sitting next to me is Ken Hall.

(07:16):
He's one of the twins maybe on my phone.
I can't tell him, but he said he's Ken.
The only way I know is Icalled Ken's phone number.
So I think I got Ken.
I'm gonna let him talk a little bit.
His mother's sitting down here,they weren't involved with the Ks
Pittman card and I'm gonna let lethim tell the whole story in the
background and include your mother.
My father was Harry Hall.

(07:37):
I was too young to be a part of that car.
I was only two years old when hecrashed that car in Englishtown.
So it really doesn't have many memoriesin my mind except probably my dad cursing
that, you know, he crashed his car.
My father started out,well, he had his own cars.
He was through Pontiac,worked for a dealership, and
they gave him a car to race.
Then he bought a 41 Willies andhad a blown Oldsmobile in it.

(07:58):
And he had help from a gentleman,uh, Bristol area named Jack Culp.
I'm sure maybe Bruce had heard of him.
I remember Jack, yeah.
You remember Jack?
Well, Jack was very famouswith, with engines very good
with Chryslers and Oldsmobiles.
In fact, Ks would credit JackCulp for teaching him how to
tune those engines because Jackwas a master with those engines.
So my father started hanging around Culp'sgarage and then started driving Jack's.

(08:22):
He had a Willy's also and then thebread truck that had a 3 92 in it.
Yeah.
Or Oldsmobile.
Then it went to 92.
So my father had his start throughJack Culp when he got put into the,
uh, hall of Fame down in Carolina.
He credited Jack Col to a lot of it.
I wish my dad was still here tosee this and be a part of this.
It was a big part of his life growing up.
Then he became, he met Ks.
Ks came east, had his opal?

(08:44):
No, that was op opiate.
He sold a 33.
The steel one.
Steel 33.
The steel 33 64.
Yeah.
And my father met Ks then and startedhanging out with 'em, helping him.
And they ran their carstogether, a lot of races.
And then Ks was selling the 33 Williesthat the doors off of down here.
And my father bought the Ks car from him.
And I, I still don't know theyear I, I asked my mom and she
didn't remember, we're guessingaround 68, somewhere in there.

(09:07):
Maybe Fred seven or, well,the car was new in seven.
Yeah, I think that was 68.
68 that Y all bought it.
Okay.
And then Ks built the Opal.
Right.
And then he had also the Austin,which was the football car.
Yeah, the football,which was Mazmanian car.
Mazmanian bought it.
Yep.
So Ks bought that.
So they had a couple carsthere floating around, driving.
But my dad primarily drovethe Ks car, which was.

(09:28):
So the day he died saidit was his favorite car.
He loved that car.
It was beautiful.
And the gentleman who paintedthat car was a great story.
He told me that, which I laughedat every time he told me.
Him and Ks, when the car wasbrand new, brought out to Molly.
Yeah, Molly was in Los Angelesand Molly used to paint all
the Hell's Angels motorcycle.
So my dad said, him andKs brought the car there.
It's in gel coat.
And they said, you know, Mollycame out and he was just hippie,

(09:49):
like long hair, crazy looking,you know, since the sixties.
And this was just himpainted Hell's Angels bike.
So he looked like a Hell's Angel.
So he said, what do you want K?
I said, I want it orange tangerineafter that and my name on it.
You do what you want.
So he said, come back in a week.
They told me he was, Molly wouldpush the car in his little garage.
He had this one car garage and he wouldget stoned out of his mind smoking pot.

(10:12):
And he would paint these carsand they looked incredible.
So they said they went to his house.
A week later they opened the garage door.
This smoke rolled outta the door.
Out comes Molly.
He could hardly even see straight.
And dad said it was the mostbeautiful thing you'd ever seen.
But that was Anita story.
I thought, man, it's so well Ihave the nose piece of the car.
I couldn't bring it.
Today.
It looks like a caveman coming at you.
And it says Paint by Molly.

(10:33):
And that's how they got the car.
But my dad drove the carfor four years or so.
He crashed it in Englishtownin 72 at the Summer Nationals.
And I learned this after Doug Wood.
There's a old story behind that as well.
But Doug is the reason why I have this.
My family has a door today, but Brianwas there at the track and was one of
the first guys to my father when the carcrashed at the end of the track, which

(10:53):
I didn't know, I just learned last year.
I bet he can't run that fast.
I said, well, what happened when?
When he got to my dad and he says, I'venever heard such foul language in my life.
And he says, not 'cause he washurt, because the battery behind the
seat was dripping ass asshole over.
And he was telling me, just getme the hell out of this car.
So I thought it was on fire.
He said, no, it was no fire.
Just your dad.

(11:13):
And there cursing up a stormtrying to get outta that car.
Anyway, the front wheel broke off.
He crashed the car.
The door had gone out in the weeds.
We got the door back a couple years ago.
Doug was a big ambassador.
Getting that back for is a big story.
But dad ran the 33, he ran against Ksfor years and he was his teammate Up
until he crashed that car, he built aVega and that was blown 3 92 on gasoline.

(11:36):
And to this day my dad ran, I, I think itwas Georgia, he ran and set the national
record in blown gas and funny car and aweek later they switched into alcohol.
So in my mind, my dadstill has the record.
That makes sense.
You know, I, that's just how I look at it.
Then he had the vaga and webought brand Anderson's Dodge
Dart and Cup of cars from there.
But just growing up, I know this car is,the pictures you can see of my dad in the

(11:59):
car and driving it and getting into herback in Englishtown back in around 82.
That car was his pride and joy.
And to be a teammate withKs meant the world to him.
Ks was just one of the mostflamboyant, fun, seemed calm, but
Dad said he was just a piece of work.
Ks was hell with fireworks.
He'd throw mates at everything.
Didn't matter where you're at,going through the Baltimore Harbor

(12:21):
Tunnel, he still throw a handfulout the window at one time.
Or Dad told me, throw one time, hesays, Ks had a real southern draw.
He was from Texas.
And he said to my dad, theywere walking through India at
the Nationals in like 68, 69.
They run the cars thereand he walked by my dad.
He says, Harry, how fast can you run?
Dad said, I okay.
That's how fast you know.
I wanna test you now.
Dad says, all right, well let's go.

(12:42):
He's, there was a guy that Ks hated.
And he walked into one of theporta johns there at the racetrack.
So Ks takes up two amens outta his pocket,twists the fuse together, lights him in
the cigar, and drops in the vent tube.
My dad said I couldn'trun any fats than I was.
Get the hell outta there.
He says, all I hear is this fud.
This guy come outta his sink, cover headto toe toilet paper, and he says Ks.
He says, I don't know who'sgonna kill your worst, me or him.

(13:02):
Let's get the hell outta here.
But he says, we laughed so hard, butmy mom could tell you stories too about
his daughter and she's gone up, oh yeah,we're gonna pass the mom now, because
she was there more than I was, you know?
But the stories that I got frommy dad were just awesome with Ks.
And like I said, thatcar was his favorite.
He loved it.
Built 33, backing around 95, 96.

(13:22):
With my family.
It wasn't the same.
It was a little lower.
Wasn't like an old Gasser.
I wish we have done it different, but.
He said the same later, the 30threes were his thing, and Rocky
Perone owns series of Gassers.
He owns replica of the Ks car,which is in museum in California,
and he owns the Big John Mazmanian40 that's out there as well.
And also a replica of hisfather's boss, hydro 33.

(13:45):
Home yet, which isn't home yet.
Yep.
So I was fortunate enough to, Idrove the Big John MAs Manini car.
In fact, I drove it against FreddieBear in the Ks car at Bud's Creek
the first time I ever drove the car.
And, uh, Rocky's father-in-law hadset the wheelie bars up a little
higher, not thinking about it.
When I left the line, the thingwas really carrying the wheels
out and I didn't know any better.

(14:06):
Just like driving a Super Bowl downthe track, I'm like, well, I guess
this is how it's supposed to leave.
I didn't know they stayed in it.
And then these guys came backto all applaud going crazy.
Well, we got the on the trackand you're sitting here now and,
and, uh, you'll agree with me.
Fred Bear and I walked up each otherand we both had tears in our eyes and I
said, man, that was for Ks and my dad.
And that was one of thegreatest experiences of my life.
I was honored.
Race against Fred Barr.

(14:27):
I was a hundred.
Oh, it meant the world to me.
I haven't driven the Ks car yet.
And Rocky says, before I die, he'sgonna let me make a pass in the Ks car.
My brother driven manytimes, Fred's driven it.
We all, I I think weall, it's like luggage.
We just passed that thing around.
Yeah.
Prostitutes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's bad.
Anyway, uh, so, uh, I've gotten achance to drive these old cars and my

(14:50):
father was there when I drove a coupleof 'em and he told me the same thing.
He says, they're just like,they were back in the day.
He says, be ready.
They're a handful somewhere.
I have a picture of my dad of the Ks cargoing through the lights at Maple Grove
with a front wheels, a foot in the air.
I've seen that picture.
Yep.
And he used to tell me, he says, didno matter what you were doing straight,
it'll be straight as an narrow, but youjust pick the front up outta nowhere,

(15:11):
half track or finish line or whatever.
And he said that thingwas a lot of fun to drive.
We were fortunate to go through it,to have Ks in our life and, and to
have Freddy and everybody, and mymother got to be a part of that.
I'm gonna give her themicrophone for a minute.
I'm sure she'll have something tointerject here and tell me where I
screwed up and did something wrong.
But thank you all for letting me comeout and ramble on for a few minutes.

(15:32):
And, um, I'm now, wait a minute.
I got a Ken and Thelma story.
We're at Beaver Springs and I'm runningyou, I think you were in the Ks car.
Maybe the balls that I was Mike.
I was Mike.
Was that Mike?
Okay.
Well, how they look alike.
I'm driving the Ks car and this is bj.

(15:54):
That's before Judy and, uh,get ready to make a run.
And I said, Harry, how aboutturn me up with a nomad?
And he goes, what?
And I says, I need somebody to turn methe nomad and bring me back after the run.
You know what I'm talking about?
And he goes, you want me to?

(16:15):
Yeah.
Well Harry was a big man.
And it took a shoehornto get him in the nomad.
And Thelma got in the rightside and they towed me up.
And as well as I remember, I won.
Uh, because the other end here,it comes down the return road.

(16:37):
He's got a smile that you couldn'tget out of the nomad with him.
You had to take the two out individually.
Next run, he says, can Iplease tell you it was my car?
But that is my last good story of you.

(16:57):
And Harry together.
I'll never forget it.
That was wonderful.
Thank you Fred.
Well, mom, what do you, I know you'vegot probably something you could add to
about the Ks days or Oh, the Ks days.
They were fantastic.
The one incident I remember very, verywell, if Ks was gonna be running at
English town and Harry racing as well,he would normally stay at our home.

(17:22):
And the one time when he waswith us, he had brought his two
daughters, Tammy and Debbie.
Tammy was a her set with Linda Vaughn.
And I can remember we were gettingready to go to Englishtown.
Tammy was still in the house trying toget ready to be her set tall boots up
to her knees, was part of her outfit.

(17:44):
And we're all outside waiting for Tammy.
NKS is going, Tammy, get out here.
We're gonna be late.
Let's go.
Let's go.
Tammy still wasn't coming out.
He's still in Tammy.
We gotta go.
Here comes Tammy.
Running out of the househad her tall boots on.
They had laces that were unbelievable.

(18:05):
Didn't have time to lace her shoes.
So she's running across the lawn,holding onto her shoe laces her
feet, trying to run across the lawn.
Well, we were rolling in stitches,laughing at her, trying to come across the
lawn, but it was just so funny to see her.
We had a lot of good times with Kay.

(18:27):
His daughters.
And with drag racing, the manyfriends that were like family
to us we're so thankful for.
And today I also wanna thank, beingthat Mike could not be here today,
his beautiful daughter Tori, whois a successful dirt track racer,

(18:48):
and also Allison, Ken's girlfriend.
Thank you for being with us.
Thank you.
Thank you, Thelma.
I, I just wanted to throwa little word in here.
From my point of view, many yearsago, I guess 10, 12 years ago, before
Ken's dad died, they had the raceup at Beaver Springs, after the York

(19:11):
Mussel of Armenia, and they racedkind of as a booked in circuit.
His dad, I was really impressed whenthey staged the cars, the two crew
people with their dad at the time, pullthe cars up, look at each other and go
like that before they went down witha race that I thought that is true.
Sportsmanship one didn't takeoff without the other or try

(19:33):
to burn the other one down.
They made sure they were readyto go and away they went.
Well, what you didn't hear is mydad would be in the car before we'd
stage and he'd always gimme wordsof advice, like, don't be a dumb
ass, or turn a fuel pump this crap.
Better come home in one piece, orI'm gonna beat you with senseless.
You know?
So he always had someencouraging stories from my dad.
As I'm staging the car.
I only got to talk toKay one time in my life.

(19:55):
And that was up in Carlisle.
And I think the good guys were upthere, which was probably 20 years ago.
And he was there as a featuredcar and speaker and stuff.
And I was listening to him.
He said, police said we werereally nuts driving cars with
wheel bases in 90 inches.
Just untamable.
But you know, that's what they did.
That's the way it was.
Stock frames.
Stock frames, yeah.
Uhhuh.
Yeah, that was a stock frame car.

(20:15):
Incredible.
I mean, they were men, you know,so Well now I'm gonna turn the
microphone over to Greg here.
Greg is a local guy and I never evercan remember the name of his car.
What's it called?
Hale.
No, actually this car is MickeyHale's, old Gasser, and he raced
in the Ohio Outlaw Gasser circuit,which was sponsored by Scott Rods.

(20:39):
And I'm gonna tell you a littlebit about the history of the
car, how I came to own it.
But before I do any of that, I just wantto make a shout out to, uh, gene Alizer.
And just to say that way back when,when Darwin Dahl had his events out
there at the York Fairgrounds, genewas at a couple of those events.
And I remember his car was parked not toofar from where we were parked at the time.

(21:04):
I was racing a little tube frame car.
It was a 1987 Dodge Charger body sittingon a, uh, Alston Pro Gas chassis.
And it was basically just looked like anold supergas car, fun little car to drive.
We were asked to come and join theshow, got a chance to meet and spend
a good bit of time talking withGene Atheer while we were there.

(21:24):
A wonderful, wonderful person.
And certainly he was, you know,one of my heroes growing up.
Certainly remember when he ran the Weaselat the first drag race I ever went to,
which was the 1969 Super Stock Nationals.
They had that out at York and he hadthe corvee at that point in time.
You know, he certainly became foremostin my attention just getting a chance to,

(21:47):
uh, see him as one of my heroes growingup, along with, uh, a guy sitting in the
back of the room with that on there, Mr.
Bruce Larson.
Alright.
My brother and I, I have a twin brotherGary, and, uh, we both became sort of
partners in crime with all this stuff.
See, I can't keep 'em straight.
They're twins.
It was an interesting story thatI'll just sort of share with you

(22:10):
guys 'cause it's sort of funny.
But my brother and I, when we were about10 years old, we were basically both
really into like dinosaurs and snakes.
And my father was an old machinist.
He started his career asa, uh, tool and die maker.
And he worked his way throughmanufacturing as the years went on.
But when we were about 10 years old,we were on vacation and my father was

(22:32):
so sick and tired of hearing aboutdinosaurs and snakes that he walked into
a magazine rack at a shopping centerthat we were at, and he picked out
a, a uh, copy of popular hot rotting.
It had gas, Rhonda on the cover,an old funny car, and he basically
said, I think it was a 1967 issue.
And he gave it to my brother andI and he said, here, read this.

(22:54):
And we never stopped much to hisdismay, I think in later years.
But basically that's how wereally got interested in cars.
And we both have continuedin that vein ever since.
Primarily started as spectators and theneventually got to get into collecting
cars and racing and stuff like that.
But I am just a local bracket racerthat's really, you know, what I do.

(23:17):
But I got into collecting somecars along the way and, and had
a chance to drive a few of thesethings, which are very interesting.
But again, I'd like to, you know, shoutout to Gene Alizer and say that if he
remembers a guy that had a black pro gaslooking charger way back when, I certainly
remember the time that he spent with me.

(23:37):
And a wonderful, wonderful person.
But as an interesting point since we'retalking about Gassers, a few years ago we
bought a 1950 Chevrolet and it was builtby a fellow by the name of Harry Logan.
We purchased it from Harry and Carol,Logan and Harry happened to say, you
know, when I wound up building thiscar, there's a friend of mine who was

(24:00):
into racing and he raced an old Gasser.
And in fact, I was at his wedding andhe became my best man at my wedding.
And his name is Harry Zaner.
And so interestingly, you guys probablyremember a green 32 5 window Ford coop.
There's a picture of it downstairs.
So there's a little bitof a connection with that.

(24:22):
1950 Chevrolet with Harry LouZader through Harry Logan.
But basically what wound up happeningwith me over the years is back around
2019, right before I retired from HarleyDavidson, I wound up getting an interest
in the, certainly over the years, Ialways had an interest in the older
style cars, even though I was drivinga more modern style car at the track.

(24:46):
One of the cars that piqued myinterest was this 1948 Austin Gasser.
It was advertised in racing junk.
And you know, my brother being my partnerin crime is the one that alerted me to it.
Mm-hmm.
And said, you ought to look at this.
And so I did.
And I wound up calling theowner who was Mickey Hale.
And Mickey Hale was looking tosell the Gasser at the time.

(25:08):
Like I said, he had had itprobably since around 2010.
And he was racing inthe Ohio Outlaw Gassers.
And I'm guessing that you guys probablyran against Mickey Hal in the early days.
But at any rate, working with Mickey,we sort of put together some of the
history of the car, and I have somepictures of it here, which will sort
of show you what it went through.

(25:30):
So basically up in the upperleft is how it started life.
It was a car that was puttogether out on the West Coast.
And a fellow by the name of JeffWright put it together and he built
it with a lone 3 92 with a torqueflat transmission, and he raced it
to a best time of about eight 40.
Basically, he kept it for anumber of years it was called,

(25:52):
of all things fat boys Folly.
After some time he wound up selling itand he sold it to a guy by the name of Don
Wilson and Don was from British Columbia.
And this is the way it lookedwhen Jeff Wright built it.
I can't say that I'm real happywith the paint job, but it was
still cool for back in the day.
But when Don Wilson bought it,he turned it into a bracket car.

(26:15):
And this is a picture of what itlooked like when he had it and he
was running around 10 seventies.
He had a small block Chevrolet in itwith a single four arrow and he was,
like I said, from British Columbia andran up around that neck of the woods.
And then at some point in time,Mickey Hale bought the car and
when he first bought it, itlooked pretty much like this.

(26:36):
Right now you can see thecar is sitting outside.
It's got some striping along theside, and he has a graphic in the
front, which he had put on it prettymuch right before I bought the car.
But basically he was runningin the Ohio Outlaw Gassers.
His best time he told me was eight 20,running at about 156 miles an hour.

(26:56):
Had some real good success with it.
Here's a picture of him when he wasrunning the floor wide down at Zm Max.
In, uh, North Carolina.
He also was up there at BeaverSprings, at the Gasa reunion there
and at Thompson Dragway out in Ohio.
He actually won a numberof times at the events.
Apparently, I guess he won Bowling Greentwice with the Ohio Outlaw Gassers.

(27:20):
There's a, a Night of Fire that'sheld out in Ohio with right at
the Summer Motorsports Park, andhe won that apparently two times.
He also raced at Indy,at the US Nationals.
I guess there was some displays, youguys did some exhibition stuff out there.
And he told me he wonthat in 2013 and 2015.

(27:41):
I won it in 12.
You did?
I won it in 12 and Ithink he won it in 13.
And you guys might have some stories toshare about racing against Mickey Hal.
Yeah, we did a lot.
Yeah.
And I still keep in touch with him.
Where'd we see Mickey?
Was that the Gators?
Yeah, we just saw himat the Gators this year.
Okay.
Spent some time withhim and he's a good guy.

(28:03):
Oh, great guy.
And uh, and I wound up buying it from him.
And actually, you know what wound uphappening is I bought the car and I
had not put a motor in it or done anychanges to it after I first bought it.
And he was building a Willy's, he wasgonna compete in the Ohio Outlaw Gassers.
And he basically said, well, I gotthis Willy's that I'm working on, and

(28:24):
we would keep in touch back and forth.
And he said, well, you know, Isaid, how's the Willy's coming?
Well, it's not done.
He said, I gotta get this thingdone because I got a couple of
dates that I have to make happen.
And I finally got to a pointI said, listen, Mickey, I
said, I still have the Austin.
I haven't done anything with it yet.
And if you want, I'llloan you the car back.
You can put your motor and transback in it and make the dates that

(28:47):
you had committed to with that car.
And we actually bid that.
No charge.
No charge.
I'll take it for you.
I promised win.
We'll talk Fred.
So basically that is, youknow what we wound up doing.

(29:07):
Mickey had it for the better part of ayear, raced it, and then he delivered
it back to me, minus engine of trans.
And at that point in time,I took the car over to John.
Little John wound up updatinga few things on the chassis.
One thing that Mickey had never donewith it was he basically said, I always
wanted to put the gas pedal on thedriver's side instead of having to swing

(29:30):
his leg over the transmission tunnel.
And also I wanted to go to a foot breakrather than having the hand brake.
And we accomplished all that stuff,working with John Little to do that and
redid some of the interior of the car.
Actually move the motor slightly forward.
We have a small block in it and themounting tabs for the small block
are the same as the original frontmounting tabs for the big block.

(29:53):
So that gave us a little extra roomin the transmission tunnel area to be
able to put the power Glide in there,which is the same as what Mickey ran.
It's a different transmissionthan the actual one that he
ran, but he ran a Power Glide.
We have a Power Glide in it.
The rear is exactly as Mickey ran it.
And we did lift the front end up alittle bit and change the wheels.
But other than that, you know, it'sa fun car to drive every time I get

(30:17):
in and I got a smile on my face.
But I can tell you that the way Ialways term it to people who ask
about, you know, what's it liketo drive one of these things?
And I basically can't see back.
I, I would tell them the tubeframe car that I used to drive.
Basically I would put my mother in itand she would be able to drive a 10.

(30:37):
Oh, I would not put mymother in the Austin.
They are fun to drive, butthey have a short wheel base.
It's a straight axle.
Takes a little more attention.
Yes.
But it is fun.
Every time I get in it, like Isay, I got a smile on my face.
The car's out on the porch.
We parked it yesterday.

(30:57):
He has to bring over it.
So we brought head cable,the weather, but he drove it.
He started and drove it thereand of course he could resist
stomping on a little bit.
I knew that was gonna happen.
I told him maybe he could just stompon off the porch and we lay some rubber
out there and you know, get his ER on.
I don't think he'll do it.
It depends how much you wanna see on the,

(31:21):
alright.
Okay.
Well I just wanna say Greg and his brotherGary are any sister, are really signed
supporters of the museum and helped meout a lot of times and it's really neat.
They have several cars.
So when I get a in a bind and weneed a car for a display for a
certain class, he's got one of 'em.
So he does bring that car and get thatcar and, and he was the poster child up

(31:44):
at Bruce's Drag Fest back in October.
So I certainly appreciate that.
Do wanna thank very much all theinteraction I've had with Bruce Larson
and his crew, bill and Dave back there.
Bruce has been a tremendousinfluence in my life.
It's just been a absolute pleasurefor me to get to know him and
the fellows who work with him.

(32:05):
It's like a dream come truefor me to get to know some of
the folks that are up here.
Again, I'm just the local bracket racer,but it is an honor, the honor of my life.
There again, there's Bruce Larson and he'sprobably one of the biggest contributors
to the drag racing area of the museum.
Well, next we gotta move over to another.

(32:25):
Supporter of the museum is Ken Bingham.
He comes over and, and helps us fixthe museum on Fridays and stuff.
That's the old farts day when, youknow, retirees come over on Friday,
they're supposed to be fixingstuff and we wind up bullshitting.
So I'm gonna turn it over tohim and let him tell about
the car out on the patio also.
Okay.
It's the, uh, orange 37 Ford Coop.

(32:47):
It's the, uh, old Nash Collodion, YOC car.
I guess I should say it.
It's, uh, Nash and Yoc.
They were the main guys behind it.
They originally had whatthey called the BUN band.
That, which was a, I think a 27 or 28.
Model a pickup that theycampaigned very successfully.
They started with that and then theyadded the 37 into their collection in

(33:08):
1961 when they took it off the streetand turned it into a pure drag car.
I bought the car out of an ad inthe auto ator, probably in about,
I'm guessing maybe 85, I guess 83.
84, 85 is where I bought the car,and I actually bought it to flip.
I was, didn't really know much about thecar, I just thought it was a neat car.

(33:29):
And uh, I bought it and it just happenedto be the week before fall, Carlisle,
from the very beginning, I had been aflea marketer at, uh, Carlisle events.
So, uh, I told my wife, I said, we'll,pick the car up the day before Carlisle
and we'll just take it down to theflea market and put it up for sale.
When I took it in that day, fromthe minute I entered the grounds
till I got it to my space, itwas kind of like a big magnet.

(33:52):
I mean, it drew a lot of attention,and like I said, this is in like 83.
He and I was like, I couldn'tfigure it out 'cause it
basically, it was a huge drag car.
When we got on the spot, my wife said,well, what are you gonna ask for it?
I said, well, I don't thinkI'm gonna sell the car.
And she said, well, I said, well,there's something going on here
that I can't quite figure out.
Why is it?

(34:13):
So many people interested in the car.
So I said simply just,we'll put a sign on.
It says Wanted, 'cause I always wantedan early funny car or an A FX car.
So I put a sign on it, wanteda FX or early funny car.
Of course, through the process of theweekend being there, I did get some
guys who were familiar with the carthat knew a history about the car.
At the time it was painted blackand it had kid's toy written on it

(34:36):
for Kid Rear who is the gentlemanwho bought it from them originally.
So the few people knew about it.
But in the process of this car sittingthere, I think it was on probably the
Thursday or Friday, that weekend, ayoung kid walked into my display and
said, I know where there's a funnycar I think you'd be interested in.
So I said, okay.
So he describes the 66 Chevellethat's sitting downstairs.

(34:58):
Funny car.
I honestly hadn't heard of thecar, so I didn't, you know, he
was explaining this car to me.
He's a fairly young fell.
He was too young to have knownthe car from back in the day.
And I eventually said to him,well, how do you know that
this is actually a funny car?
He goes, well, he said, it's acenterfold in 1966 Car Craft Magazine.
I was like, really?
Okay.
So in the process, he says, whenI get, he said, it's, it's just

(35:21):
down the street from where I live.
I'll, uh, get the guy's name andaddress and I'll let you know about it.
I listened to her cell phones.
So anyhow, when I went home thatnight, I wanted my attic and dug
out my magazines, and there it is.
June, 1966.
Centerfold and I was like, oh my God.
Mm-hmm This is unbelievable.
How did I not get thisguy's name and address?

(35:43):
So it went probably, I'm thinkingmaybe November of that year, I
finally get a letter back fromhim that was very apologetic.
He was sorry that he hadn't gotten back tome, but the guy had moved and he tracked
him down and found his new address andgave me the new address for me to go.
Of course I went out and bought the carand brought that car home and kept it.

(36:03):
But in the process, the car that Ibought, the flip, I still have it.
Never left it go.
And of course I learnedmore about the car.
Uh, these guys were very, very activein the sixties in the local area.
Raced it extensivelyin the mid-state area.
I know they were at York,they were to Hagerstown.
Uh, I'm not sure about SouthMountain Beaver Springs.

(36:24):
They were there an awful lot.
I have an interestingstory for Beaver Springs.
When we first got the car back together,we joined the East Coast Gassers.
First race we went to attendwas at Beaver Springs.
I had never been to Beaver Springsbecause I quit drag racing in I think 71,
and that's when Beaver Ball opened up.
Sohow.
We get to the trackthat day with this car.

(36:45):
We were a little bit late as usual,and I'm in there and this guy comes
riding down the the aisle with ascooter and he's going, oh my God.
Oh my God, that's the original car.
I said, yeah, it's theoriginal Knick Nash car.
And he goes, they'relining up in the line.
You gotta get that carup there right away.
And I said, well, I've gottaget it checked in first.
And he looks at me.
He said, well, where's your card?

(37:05):
So I went in and got my techcard and I handed it to him.
He scribbled someone andhe said, you're ready.
Get up up in the line.
That's Beaver Bob.
He takes off.
I turned around and someguy said, who is that?
He goes, well, he owns the track,so if he says you're good to go.
So we raced it several times up thereand then followed the circle around.

(37:26):
I think it was a year or so later.
Again, we're back at Beaver Springs andmy son was driving the car that day.
Well, he blew the engine goingthrough the lights and that was the
last run, last time we ran the car.
When we got back that night, I was like,you know, this was a lot of fun when I
was a kid, but this stuff was stayingup light and building new engines.
I said, no, I wasn't cut out for that.

(37:47):
So we basically took the car andparked it in the back of the barn
and left it set for a few more years.
And then one day my son said,you know, we really ought to
put that car back together.
So he bought a motor andthat's the motor's in it now.
And I just haven't gotten aroundto finishing final details so we
can start it up running some more.
But the real history belongs toNick Nash and, uh, Jimmy Ock because

(38:09):
they were the instigators and themain operators back in the day.
And, and as far as a, a nice originallocal East coast car, it's, I personally
feel it's one of the better guessers,you know, because, uh, it's just a neat,
and I kept it as original as I could.
I didn't, the motor I had in it backin the day was a correct motor with
the right heads and all that nonsense.

(38:31):
Son bought this motor.
It's a newer motor.
It's a three 50 motor, but wejust like, okay, just for the sake
of having something that runs.
But it's just a nice, neatpiece of original history.
I'm glad I never flipped it.
Glad I kept it.
I'm not very successful atflipping, as you can see.
Fortunately.
Thank God for that many stay.

(38:52):
Oh, thank you guys for your cards.
I just wanted to say somethingin case you haven't noticed.
These guys raced each other, butit actually was a big family.
'cause everybody knew everybodyand they all traveled together.
They, some of 'em slept togetherand that's a whole different story.
Okay, that's different.

(39:12):
It was really united.
It was.
It was really neat.
You don't have that today.
Everybody's out for each other, butthey really mentored each other.
They helped each other and it was great.
It was just true sportsmanship.
So with that being said, I wanted to ask.
We're gonna turn this into aquestion and answer period.
We're gonna sort of angle offonto the SNS Speech office.

(39:34):
Of course, this was before my time,but I remember, and I think Fred was
what said probably Beaver Springs.
You know, the three circle thingsthat they have for the Olympics.
Well on his car, all thecars, there was five rings.
You'll see it down on Gene Izerand the Olympics is five rings,
is the Olympics, five rings?
Well, he said that stands for afive ring circus, and I thought

(39:56):
that was pretty probably appropriatebecause you guys were fun to watch.
A little history on that.
Five rings at the start of the 64season, Chuck Stolte, who owned s and
s parts in that time was sponsoring.
Five Gassers, of which Iwas fortunate to be one.
And he came out with that designand it became our emblem and

(40:17):
our T-shirts and everything.
A few years later, the US OlympicCommittee who up until that time, if
you order enough to remember the Olympicsymbol, was like a US roadside, whatever
shape, and they went to the five rings.
And so what, well, it turns out yearslater, the s and s team is selected to be.

(40:40):
Some of the top 50 guessers inthe nation, and we were honored
at the US Nationals that year.
And David Hales, one of ourteammates, sent in pictures that
NHRA requested to do promotion.
And he gets a letter back thatwe can't use any of the pictures
with the Olympic symbols on him.

(41:00):
David calls me and he says,what do you remember about this?
And I said, well, ZY said thathe copyrighted it and sued him
and they wound up settling.
So we did some research and it turnsout, and he had copyrighted it to change
a copyright 15% is not an infringement.
Well, the copyright committee decided, andI think Chuck agreed with them, that the

(41:24):
five colors in the Olympic Committee saidthey had picked five colors for the rings
to represent the five continents, whichmade sense to me and it was all settled.
And we go, wow.
David sent all of this back to NHRA.
Three days later, David got aletter or email from NHRA and says,

(41:46):
we have checked your information.
You are correct, right?
We can use all of your pictures.
And that's the end of that story.
Now, footnote is.
A few years ago, we're doing a reunionrace at Old Dominion Speedway, which is
where David and Jean and I grew up, madeour first passes and I think probably

(42:06):
most rooms have somebody else that madetheir first passes at Old Dominion.
We got Chuck's son tobring Chuck out there.
He become very recluse.
He enjoyed himself.
We put him on a golf cart and tow meback up to Return Road and all, and
he came back the next year with hisson, brought him and he gave me an
envelope to Charles h Stal and he says,here, I think you'd like to have this.

(42:31):
I open it up and it was that year's.
Olympic flag dated andI go, oh, this is cool.
What's this?
And he says, every year theysend me all kinds of stuff.
And I thought maybeyou'd like to have this.
And I still have it.
It's an hundred possession.
Wow.
But the Olympic five rings, whenyou see 'em, change the colors

(42:54):
to yellow and think of the SNST.
Okay.
While you're on the mic, tellus about the SNS organization.
I should mention first, Dave Hales.
Who lives in Florida and I thought helived close to Fred, but they on the other
side of the continent, I guess down there.

(43:14):
Dave Ha was very instrumental ingetting Gene's car here because he's
more or less the, what do I wanna say?
He takes care of legal work and Fred doesthe, the gopher work, but he called me
and, and was very receptive to us havingthe car and wanted to check it all out.
His car is in Speedway?
Yes.
David's.

(43:34):
Willies is the only SNS car thatsurvived all the rest of them got.
He was a better driver.
Crashed, killed, shot, buried,whatever happened to all of them.
And that includes a person thatwasn't one of our original five.
But Rapid, right at that time became anSNS member, and that was Malcolm Durham.

(43:58):
I know Bruce raced against Malcolmand I knew some other, knew him.
Malcolm was one of the finestgentlemen I've ever known in my life.
He was a good racer.
He was a good friend.
He was outgoing.
He would help you if you had a problem.
Am I right Bruce?
Absolutely.
And he, we have him inthe showcase down there.

(44:18):
He was Annet team member.
Over towards the anchor.
We have the strip blazer.
We have a picture of these63, 4 0 9, I think C3, 4 0 9.
Then he is later cars.
We had a little tribute to him 10 yearsago, and his wife and son were here.
Swell guy.
I only ever met him one time.
Baltimore, Maryland.
He was basically close and heraced at Cecil quite often.

(44:39):
He came to York often too when he wasn't.
Now you started to ask me somethingquestion I wanna ask you is what were
the first original members of the SNST?
Which cars?
Good question.
Close to you all's heart.
The Halls Hearts was KsPetman, Chuck Dozi owned it.
The SNS 33 Willies all are steel bodiedwith a Zeel Hemi Gene Ties and the AGAs

(45:02):
Anglia that's, uh, living downstairs.
And we, we are very proud to haveput it on loan here for the world
to see much better than beingcovered in a garage somewhere.
Very garage.
So, uh, we're honored that it's hereand I, I hope everybody enjoys the car.
I was the big Gasser in my willies.

(45:22):
Charlie Hill and Port Artman werethe seagas with the Filthy 40, which
was the only car out of s and s, theoriginal fact that was not s and s Red.
And then, uh, Dave Hales was the DGA asWillies and Charlie refused to paint his
car and he refused to let 'em wash it.

(45:44):
And Bruce probably remembers this.
They came out with 90 10 up block shock.
Tremendous invention.
Zi was warehouse distributor or SNSfor almost all the manufacturers.
'cause he got in onthe ground floor of it.
We each got a pair of emand they were chrome plated.
Well that was the onlychrome on David's and mine.
And Gene's Car course.

(46:06):
K's car, which Zi and hadChrome axle and Chrome rear.
And Jim Clinton's oldcar, but it was beautiful.
Gave him to Charlie.
Charlie took him home and spray paintedthem black and put him on his car.
So, which is a little insight in how webecame the first successful racing team.

(46:29):
Others were owned by the samecompany or the same person,
but they were competitors.
We were as NS racing team, but wewere competitors to our competitors.
Gene would not adjust the valves andchange the plugs on his car to help put
a clutch in my car to make next round,and then I might beat him for a little

(46:50):
eliminator, and it worked every way.
But years later, in nascar, a verysuccessful team came outta Alabama, known
as the Alabama gang, which I was fortunateenough during that time to work with
and for those people, the Allisons knewthrough me of the success that we had had.
And when the Alabama gang showedup at your track, you knew you

(47:15):
had to have your act together.
'cause it wasn't one car you hadto beat, you had to beat 'em all.
And we traveled together, the sand s team, when we got there,
you had to go through all ofus and we all had fun doing it.
We loved traveling together.
I got a bunch of stories in the earlysixties of traveling through the South and

(47:36):
Malcolm Durham that I guess I could tellsome of y'all here, but some of 'em are
signs of the progress that our country hasmade, and I was proud to be a part of it.
You were talking about the shocks and, youknow, and he'd given you a pair of shocks

(47:57):
at the time that Ks had the, the Austin.
He had to go race matre somewhereand he was staying in Jersey
around our area with my dad.
I think my dad had the 33.
He just bought the 33and Ks had the Austin.
Yeah.
He says to my dad, Hey Harry, I gota mat race Virginia this weekend.
I wanna give you the Austinand I'm gonna take a 33.

(48:17):
'cause it was a betterhandling car that Austin.
My dad said that thing they usedto call the football and he said
that thing would switch lanes.
It acted like a football.
Yeah, it would just allnever went straight.
Never went straight.
So that's all right.
Well I'm gonna take Austin andwe have a, we're gonna race it at
test that Maple Grove or something.
My dad took the car home.
They do unload it and the shocks,he said, it's something to be shot.
I can't figure it out.
They don't work for crap.

(48:38):
They took the shocks apart andthe oil in 'em was like WD 40.
It was so thin.
So my dad said, well, wegot laying around here.
It's thick.
So he said, well, a buddy, it was KennyCoons used to help him with the car.
Kenny said, I got some ofhis rear grease over here.
Let's dump some of that.
They dumped in it.
They went out the MapleGrove, not at the time.
And a gas double.
A gas.
The record was eight 40.
At the time.
So my dad says they go out andrun it and it went at 8 52.

(49:01):
So they came back and my dad said,don't say a word to Ks so that we,
next weekend, dad had a match raceKs at like Cecil County or something.
So Ks comes back from his race for 33.
Sorry Harry, give my car back.
Dad says, nah, I'll run this.
I'm used to driving it right now.
You run it for 33 and wewill run it at Cecil County.
So they have the first pass and dad said,I want an 8 54 Cashman, 8 68 or something.

(49:26):
He said, I cleaned his clock andthe K walks over and he says,
Harry, what'd you do to my car?
He says, I you telling you Tiger.
He said, I'm running itthe rest of the year.
He said, you can keep that 33,said, oh Harry, I want my car back.
That was the greatest thing that Kshad the Opal GT at the time and dad had
the 33 and they used to match race alot, maple Grove, and they tore around

(49:47):
the East Coast, up and down and I havearticles of match racing these cars.
Dad says he had just made a run byhimself, a single and chaos came
down with somebody and on the opal.
And if you ever sat, see an opalgt, little cadet, your feet are
really, even ca was a short guy.
You're really crammed in his car.
Well, K's foot, like you talkedabout moving the foot pedal
was up on the trans tunnel.

(50:08):
And he said, now Ks, if you didn'tknow Ks, he always smoked cigars,
always had a cigar in his mouth.
He even rolled a hole in his fire mask andhad a cigar sticking out his fire mask.
Yeah.
So dad says, we're down the track.
I see the car coast andsmoke's come outta it.
I'm wondering what happened to him.
And he comes to a stop and hisfoot is out of the windshield and
had blown the transmission up andblew his foot out the windshield.

(50:29):
What happened?
So my dad was walking open his doorand he did, he says, tire you okay?
And he says he's dripping withtransmission fluid all over him.
And he says, his cigars out and he says,I dunno if I'm more upset about my foot
hanging out the window or my cigars bad.
He says, Harry, would you pushmy foot outta the windshield?
So I get outta this dang thing.

(50:49):
I heard more great storiesand I, it's a shame.
I was born in 70.
So I missed that era.
And I have to say to my dad, helped saidit was, I missed being a part of that
era back then when they ran these cars.
Because the stories I heardthe crazy crap it did.
They were staying at an indie and my dadwas in a, one of the hotels and he was
talking, I forget the guy's name, whowas one of the master tuners back then as

(51:10):
someone who's an engine builder, but theywere in a hotel of a mile down the road.
So my dad was in the parking lot and Ksand MAs, Manian and, and Junior Thompson,
all these guys just there talkingand they were tuning someone's car.
So my dad said, I just can't gethis barrel of out to go right?
And I have a problem with it.
So the guy said to mydad, where's your car at?
Dad's up at the hotel here.
Why don't you bring it down?
We'll look at it.
So dad went up, unloaded itoff the trailer and drove it

(51:32):
down the highway to the hotel.
The guy says, what are you doing?
He says, you told me to bring it down.
The guy says, yeah, on the trailer.
But that was back in the daywhen you get away with that a
little bit more, you know, youweren't getting in trouble for it.
I have pictures at home that I, Icherish this day of like my dad.
There's a picture of him at IslandDragway the first time ever.
He first met K being towed downthe track in K is all steel high

(51:53):
roof 33 when he first met him.
Yeah, the steel car.
Steel car.
And that's when he crashed, I thinkin Texas or something like that.
No, Noel.
Yeah.
Where he was born.
Where he was born, yeah.
Where he was born.
More great stories of those cars, of whatthey did and what you guys went through.
I mean, like I said, dad told me that thatKS car was an original 33 frame rails.
That they would just beef up alittle bit and do stuff to 'em

(52:15):
to, you know, to make 'em legal.
And I, I look inside the cars,then the pictures of 'em and I
think, how did you guys live?
You guys were insane back then.
Oh good.
That young we could deliver.
That's it, you know, but like mydad used to say, that's all we knew.
You know?
That's what you, we race in.
I see the helmets that down ondisplay here in these rooms.
The helmets that you guys woreand the fire suits that you wore.
I look at today with what wehave at technology, and I think

(52:37):
you guys were outta your mind.
They got the job done,they got the job done.
One of gene old's early helmets.
Is downstairs in the display case.
Bill Cline brought it up.
I mean, I knew Gene had had a longtime before Gene mother talked
him into not racing motorcyclesanymore because it was dangerous.

(52:59):
So he went drag racing, but he hadthat helmet from there and he wore
that helmet into his funny car career.
Bill says there's new manufacturers,there's no tags, there's no date.
It's almost as old as dirt.
But it was all we knewand it was all we had.
Thank you Lord for taking care of us.

(53:20):
You're still here totell the story, right?
Yeah, yeah.
But uh, you're right.
I mean, look at some of these helmetsand Yeah, and the things that, and
look at the roll bars, a lot of thesesprint cars, every picture you see.
The helmet is this far above a robbar.
Now where is the safety in that one?
Folks who passed that protect, right?
Everybody did it.

(53:40):
All of them were the same.
And that's why I say I have my father'sfire suit downstairs on display.
That was probably from around74 or five, I'm guessing.
The blue fire suit.
Mom and I look at that today, thefire suits that we have now, like
Bruce that you wore and stuff.
And I think it's amazing thehelmet that's down there.
I mean, I'm afraid to dropit from my waist high.
It's on a crack in half.
And I think you guys feltsafe in these things.

(54:00):
But it's funny we say that Idrove for almost 20 years a
jet car for the Hannah Hell.
For El Hannah did a hell of a job.
Thank you.
I appreciate it very much, bud.
I really did.
I closed my eyes 'cause speedscares the hell outta me.
Only wait a minute, folks.
Not only did he do a hellof a job of driving stupid
jet, I know my dad said that.
Yeah.
My dad, when I first drove it, he said,why do you wanna drive that weed burner?

(54:23):
What do you thinking?
But he.
Made probably thousands and thousandsof friends for himself and drag racing.
This gentleman was so good with the crowd,with the public that even if he'd been
bad, Al Hannah would've kept him on.

(54:44):
I paid him to hang out.
That's all it was.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
Al was good people.
Yes, he was.
Al was good people and we justlost Al Hannah a few months ago.
Uh, he was my boss foryears with the jet cars.
We go on story about that.
We're not here for the, forthat, but he will be missed.
He was a good guy.
He, yeah, he's the one that hiredme and took me to another level.
My mother and my father took me to alevel of racing and I was fortunate them

(55:06):
to build cars with us and let me andmy twin brother drive the willies and
the, the T buck and everything else.
So thank you mom for that.
We're very fortunate to have family whodid it way back when, and I don't know
who made the rule, whether it was theNHRA or Old Dominion or Costco or what.
But the new rules for that year were thatyou had to take your jacket and soak it

(55:31):
in boar rats tire and hang it up to dry.
Yeah.
To fireproof your jacket.
Well, thank God none of 'em evercaught on fire that I know because
I can't imagine it helping.
But felt nice and they were stifferthan, uh, they would stand by themselves.
I trustee, they like canvas.

(55:52):
It's funny you say about OldDominion Manassas Dragway.
I drove Rocky's one Gasser downthere at Manassas Dragway reunion.
Yeah.
Three reunion.
We ran each, we ran each other.
I think when I staged, I remembergoing up to the pre looking over
for Freddy and I could have reachedover and touched his door handle.
I thought, please go straight.
For you and me both.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And we left the line, I, we went 300feet and it was smoke in the tires.

(56:16):
I only had a half throttle and it was,I mean, from guardrail to center line.
And then I'm going, now if I'mdoing this, what's Fred doing?
So I kept looking forFred, is he in his lane?
Where are we at now?
And we had better tiresand better that point.
When that first race there, it was nowider, but there were no guardrails.
And this is in the late fifties,you'd be getting ready for the

(56:37):
flagman and the crowd would bedown about three or 400 feet.
And you took off.
And as you got there, they backed upand still on the edge of the track.
I don't think we ever ran over anybody.
You don't think so, right?
I don't.
I never heard stories, but,well, it didn't happen when
I was there, thank goodness.
But it was the way it was.

(56:59):
It was accepted and we werebeing as safe as we could.
I mean, we had a paper thin helmetand four ax jacket and a seatbelt.
Cost a dollar 98 at Pep Boys.
That was probably downwith sheet metal screws
and Thank you Wiley Parks and BillFrench for making safety rules.

(57:23):
And everybody that contributed, becausewe're sure we're still having fun, huh?
Bruce?
Yeah.
And Bruce.
Bruce can share stories too on all that?
Yeah.
Oh boy.
Yeah.
What kind of fire suit did youhave when you drove that car?
Do you remember?
T-shirt.
No fire suit.
No.
Fire suit?
No.
No.
Well, you had a helmet though, right?
Jeans and a no Gloves.

(57:43):
Jeans and a t. T-shirt, no gloves.
Well, I remember pictures somewhere.
I, who it was driving a funny carand they had gardening gloves on.
I thought, who are theyRight behind past that.
But I, I guess I thought maybethey were soaked in, uh, borax.
Whatever.
They, they were safe.
Yeah, they were like brand new.
Yeah.
They never got his handaround the steering.

(58:04):
Nope.
Never, never once.
Guys, I apologize 'cause Fred and Icould sit here for hours, just keep
telling stories and I'm just rememberingstories as you guys were saying about
the shocks and stuff and it was,we're the entertainment department.
You all are serious.
Yeah, really.
I sit and tell the funny stories.
These guys are telling the historicalfacts that I'm like, well, I fucking idiot
sitting here telling these goofy stories.
But as my mom would say, I'm sure we allsaid we were lucky enough to have my dad

(58:28):
and Ks and yeah, Freddy and all these guysthat contributed to what my dad got to do.
And um, we were fortunate to do it.
The cars that were still aroundtoday, unfortunately a lot of
those cars aren't here anymore.
The Ks, the 33 Act crashed, like yousaid, a lot of the, uh, original s and
s guys that earth cars are all crashed.
Or Charlie's the filthy40, the filthy for crashed.
Uh, my car got crashed.

(58:49):
A guy who became real gooddrag racer in New York.
Bob Chipper.
Oh yeah, chipper Bob Chipper.
Bought my car and raced it with ablown small block in it with a four
speed set the mile an hour record.
For big ass super in that car with ablown small block with a four speed.
Wow.
He was in a buildup area and aMopar Super stocker went to do

(59:10):
a burnout and was in reverse andslammed into the driver's door.
Today we fixed it.
Yeah.
He scrapped it and put everything in a 33Willies and then he went to funny cars.
You we ran with him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I thought you probably ranhim with him for years.
Yeah, but that was the end of mine.
All ties.
First Anglia, the stock topone that won the nationals.

(59:34):
It was just on an Anglia chassis and afterone year it was war slam out, so we cut
the car up 'cause he built his car, singlecar garage under his parents' house.
So we started a new car and I startedbracing and more roll cage, no them

(59:56):
more rollbar, but strengthening theframe, gussets and plating and stuff
that we all learned as time went on.
And then that car soldand sold and disappeared.
So we don't know what happened to that.
David's car made the rounds and he boughtit back a few years ago, restored it.

(01:00:17):
In fact, the person that paintedit 29 years later painted it again.
He was a friend of ours.
He painted my, all my stock cars.
He painted 'em my, and I said, uh, thispaint job is under warranty, isn't it?
So, uh, that's the one in the museum.
Malcolm's Corver became Allie's,Corver, he bought it from Malcolm

(01:00:38):
before he went to the Loki cars.
Now you crash your carand you fix it back.
Then you just got another one.
They were still prevalent.
Yeah, you can still get 'em.
Well, I'm gonna pass it down to you guys,but I always wanted to This a one thing.
Jeff, thank you so much andthe museum for letting us put
my dad's door in the museum.
And Doug Wood, this all would'vebeen possible without you, my honor.

(01:01:01):
Believe me,
that door had been long gone for years.
And if you were at the uh, Lebanon carshow last year, Doug presented the doors.
A picture over here of him, presentedthe door to our family on stage,
and that door had been missingfor years and years and years.
Doug bought it at an auction.
And we'll learn the story of howwe were looking for it, which we

(01:01:22):
didn't know Doug until this time.
And he so graciouslydonated it to our family.
I had talked to Jeffand said, wait a minute.
He said he was giving it to me and but yououtbid me now you say he gave it to you.
What steal here?
Uh, I read, you forgot.
I don't wanna hear it.
The dinner.
And Doug, we still owe you dinner.

(01:01:42):
We keep trying to get this planned.
And anyway, uh, the Dohancame back to us last year.
I believe it was at, atthe, uh, Lebanon Drag Fest.
So I talked to Jeff and I said,instead of it sitting in our home,
you know, and doing nothing, it wouldbe an honor to have my dad and Ks
remembered and put here on display withmy dad's fire suit and a couple other

(01:02:03):
items, Jeff and the whole staff here.
Thank you so much.
It means the world to my family.
We're really proud to have it.
And I also wanna say something,Doug also donated K S's
toolbox, what would you call it?
It is a big box that he kept hissuit and stuff and traveled with him.
Yeah, it's downstairs with full pictures.

(01:02:23):
It's a box.
It's a box.
A wooden box.
Okay.
Unfortunately I don't have enoughroom to put it on the floor.
I'm figured.
Maybe we can hang it fromthe ceiling or something.
That was Lynn's thing.
Well, we'll hang it from the ceiling.
Well, thank God the snow load's high.
I just wanted to know it's therewhen we get done with our inventory,
I'll get it out to be seen.
But do you want the CliffNotes versionof how I came into all this stuff?

(01:02:43):
Yeah.
So a friend of mine is in thebusiness of helping people sell cars
on the internet and stuff like that.
Howard Rackey apparentlywas a friend of Ks Pitman's.
Oh yes.
Also.
And when Ks would come into town,if he wasn't staying with the
halls, he would stay with Howard.
When Howard passed away several yearsago, my buddy JD was contacted to help

(01:03:06):
liquidate Howard's car collection.
He took care of the cars, buthe said, Hey, Doug, look, I've
got all this KS Pitman stuff.
Do you want any of it?
Of course, I had no idea the pole storythat was going on, so I said, yeah, I'll
take anything of kss that you've got.
So I paid whatever the estatewanted for the goodies.
You know, I was just gonna hang on toit, but then I got to thinking that, you

(01:03:29):
know, I don't know that it's sitting inmy basement's doing anybody any good.
So I was gonna give it to Rocky to goout to Lions with the tribute car and the
year before I gave the door to you guys.
Rocky told me the story thatthe hall family had been trying
to get ahold of that door fromHoward for years, years and years.

(01:03:50):
I don't know the backstory, but there wassome bad blood I think that was going on.
He, he said, no, there's no wayyou're getting it from me, but I,
I'll buy that grill shell from you.
Something like that.
When I heard the story, Rockytook me over to meet Ken and Mike.
Mom wasn't there that day.
And I just knew that that'swhere the door needed to live.
So I decided at that time thatI was gonna gift it to them.

(01:04:12):
And I had a friend of mine make thecherry stand that it's sitting on,
and I gifted it to 'em at Drag Fest.
Honestly, it has been, my honor,really has what we've, we've looked
for that door for a long time.
I knew where it was, and my dad had,actually, years ago, probably in the
early eighties, mid eighties, hadgiven the door to a guy that worked

(01:04:32):
at Vargo, was Dick Long, Dick didtech there and things like that.
It was just a, everybody knewDick at Vargo, so he gave
him the hang in his barn.
He had a big display in his barnof all kinds of memorabilia.
It was a really cool thing,like Bruce Larson's, it was a
beautiful display and everybody,it was just a lot of memorabilia.
Well, when Dick had passed, hisson sold the door to Howard.

(01:04:54):
And we didn't know anything about it.
We didn't know what had happened.
I just heard that Dick had passed andI thought, okay, well let me reach
out and talk to, I tried to call hiswife, no one to answer the phone and
I was trying to get the door back.
I said, you know, if things aregonna start getting just gone,
or I want the door back, 'causeit was never theirs to sell.
So when it got sold to Howard, I, I foundout Howard had it and I had met Howard

(01:05:14):
through Ks and my dad, I had said, Howard,I understand that you have the door.
I'd like to get it back.
It was my dad's, you know.
And he said, well, I bought it, it's mine.
And I said, well, it wasn't for sale.
I want it back.
My dad gave it a dick justto display in his barn and it
was never meant to be sold.
It was his loan to him.
So it became a sort of aheated argument on the phone.

(01:05:34):
And I just said, I hung upand I'm calling him back.
I said, listen, I don'twanna fight with you.
I just wanna say in writing,let's do something of some kind of
contract that I get the door backbefore it gets sold again to someone
who we have no idea where it is.
So he pretty much didn't agree withthat and hung the phone up on me and,
and it was never to be seen again.
And this is where you came in, youpurchased the door years later.
At that point I give up on it.

(01:05:54):
I thought it was just gone.
It was who knows where.
So when you approached me andmy brother at the car show with.
And told us you had the door.
It was like the Easter bunny.
He had just delivered Santa Claus to me.
So that's where the whole story came from.
So that's where you have been such aninstrumental part of getting this back.
You and your family.
So our family, thanks you so much, Doug.

(01:06:14):
Thank you.
And Howard, thank Harry.
Thanks.
You and the Howard in this story, someof you may know among his car collection
was a clone of K'S 56 Ford pickup that hehad in numerous shows all over this area.
The York shows, Lebanon Valley.

(01:06:35):
He built that truck in honorof his friend Ks and that may
TA together for some of y'all.
Yeah, that's cool.
That is.
I just wanna mention, I contactedRocky Perone when we decided to get
this all together a few months ago.
Told him what we were doing and he, I, Ican almost hear him bawling on the phone.
He said, I gotta go to Texas.

(01:06:55):
We're having a matchrace with the funny cars.
I can't come.
And you didn't hear it canceled?
Yeah, but his cars were here ondisplay three years ago, I guess for
a couple years, two, three years ago.
So his dad's car was here and the, thenew car that they reincarnated was here.
So we'll get it back.
So now I wanna know why youguys built your race cars.

(01:07:17):
Out of the orphaned foreign car, backlot special cars where you just cheap.
You don't wanna spend the moneyfor a good car like Ken's cars.
At least it's a Ford.
All the offbeat stuff is whatyou put these cars out of.
What was that all about?
The wheelies was cheap.
Austin, that was aforeign car, wasn't that?
What are you talking about?
Why were you, wait a minute.

(01:07:38):
Alright, here you go.
Here we go.
Story.
David paid $20 for his Willies.
It still has it and still has it.
Well, it paid more for itthe second time, by the way.
Uh, and he worked for Fort Motor Company.
Oh yeah.
Well not at that time.
We looked for a long time after David'scar got wrecked on a towing accident.

(01:08:00):
Coming back from SCO for Willies.
A lot of funny stories with those trips,but we finally found David's Willies.
In a guy's yard who was a hoarder.
Didn't know it at the time, therewas a word like that, but there is
now, they had school buses packedup to the windows and the doors with
stuff, refrigerators, everything.
And he had this willers,I don't wanna sell it.

(01:08:22):
We wound up making a deal because wedidn't want the engine to transmission the
rear end, the tires and wheels, the seats.
And so he got it for $20, but wehad to give him a $20 deposit.
And then we brought allof those parts back.
Put 'em in a pile.
Got the $20 deposit back.
Now, a year later, all tieswants to build an Anglia.

(01:08:45):
Hey, the guy TB in nearBrandywine, Maryland had an Anglia.
So we go over there, all ties.
Bought the Anglia for the total of$15, but he had to give a $20 deposit
until he brought the engine to trade.
Oh, and when we went over toget the Anglia, all the David's
stuff was still in the same pile.

(01:09:08):
And when we took all the Anglia partsback, got the $20 deposit back, my
will is the one that I have now.
I bought in 67 before wefound David in Mont, Maryland,
which we just came through.
We found this, and the gentleman had thiswillie's and a Willie's pickup truck.

(01:09:28):
Well this Willie's was his parts.
His pickup truck was his farm truckwhen Willie's had been sitting there.
And it was a sapling about thatbig had grown up between the
front bumper and the front end.
And we made a deal for it.
And I don't remember how much.
20 bucks, $25 in my memory.

(01:09:49):
And there are no tires and wheels on it.
So we go back the next weekendand the old man's not farmer
is not there, but his son is.
So we tell the son, we're gonnagive you a hundred dollars deposit.
We're gonna jack up the pickuptruck, take the tires and wheels
off of it, put it on the wheelies.
And while we're making this, Isaw the sapling down and the boy.

(01:10:14):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well the sapling had to be cut down.
Took the bumper off.
You still couldn't get the car out.
It was in the woods.
We got the tires and wheels onthe car, hooking up a tow bar, and
he comes home and goes ballistic.
Yelling at his kid, yelling atDavid and I by cutting his tree out.
Hell, man, you got hundreds of 'em.

(01:10:36):
David gets mad at it.
Well, David didn't even getmad at anybody, but he's got
his money back and we left.
That was 62, 63.
David built a car.
Now I'm going to college in DCat night trying to get smarter.
It didn't work.
One of my classmates says, friendof mine's got a Willie's guy he's

(01:10:58):
gonna build and he's lost interestand he's paying rent on his garage.
You wanna buy it?
I said, oh, yeah.
Said, when can I look at it?
How about Saturday?
Okay, so I go over, walk in this garage.
I'm looking at the car, I look inside.
And here's this giant slash where somebodyhas taken an ax to the sail area and I
go, this car came from Mont, Maryland.

(01:11:23):
And this guy goes, yeah, how did you know?
I said, David Ha and I. Ohyeah, he doesn't like you guys.
Well, I still own that little girl.
Or we now own it.
I have a partner.
We own it and we love it.
She's raced it.
I've raced it a whole lot.
The original frame from under that caris under the KS Pitman Rocky Perone car.

(01:11:47):
Kidding.
Tell us about that.
That's my 33 Willy frame.
Frame.
Underneath of our Willys is underthe Big John MAs Manian car.
Wow.
Talk about incest man.
And what was the other frame?
You were telling me thestory the other day.
Who's, whose other frames wherethe 33 frame came with one
of the Lias Rex Red Throat.

(01:12:09):
Some of y'all know him from Florida.
Four door pre effect.
Crazy man.
Very involved with ournascar hot rod reunions.
Friend of his had an Anglia.
We were looking to build a new izer car.
I go down, I look at it and I go, ah.
And they wanted to on him at the time.
I don't know.

(01:12:30):
Rick says, what, whatabout the frame fork?
And I said Frame.
'cause it was just a body in the garage.
So go out behind a shed andhere is an Anglia frame.
And it turns out Rex had boxedit, Rex professional welder.
He had boxed it or to look at it.
When we dig it up out theweeds, there's another frame.
Really in the dirt.

(01:12:51):
But I look at it, I crave it, stand itup, and I go, uh, this is a Willy's frame.
And he goes, yeah, about that years ago.
And I never have done anything with it.
And I go, well, does allthis go with the body?
He said, yeah, I could do that.
I'm driving outta his driveway.
I didn't even get to the main highway'cause we were building the Ks car.

(01:13:16):
But going by the 67 rules, it hadto be on a manufactured frame.
It couldn't be on a 68, youcould put 'em on a tube chassis.
But we built that in 67 Ks did.
So that's what Rocky wanted.
I wasn't a hundred yards outtatheir yard loading the car up.
I call Rocky and I go, I got a 33 frame.

(01:13:41):
So you probably thought you wereelucidating at that point, right?
The whole family stays together.
And that's what all forms of racing are.
And all of you that are racers knowexactly what I'm talking about.
You got a family that's your bloodto, but it's nowhere near as good
or big as the family you got racing.
Amen.
And that's how I see it.

(01:14:03):
Yeah, that's very true.
I'll just say that earlier I talkedabout my partnering crime being my twin
brother, and so I just wanted to lety'all know he just walked in the door.
So the guy in the back there
over the years, best friends growingup and basically had a lot of the same

(01:14:23):
interests and we both went down the samepath doing the car stuff and collecting
and racing, and he's here in attendance.
Well, you guys callyourselves the surf brothers.
The surf brothers.
Yeah.
First thing is he's told fiveor six stories about you.
I want to know which one of 'em are true.
They're all lies.

(01:14:46):
Yeah.
Gary and I, like I said, our father wasthe one who's responsible for us both
getting into this probably way morethan he ever had thought we would just,
over the years we've, you know, we'vehad the pleasure to be a part of all
of this and to make some great friends.
And really, you know, despite the factthat we all have a tendency to focus
on the hardware, I have to say thatit's really the friendships that we

(01:15:09):
make that make this whole car seemas important to us as it really is.
The hardware is the means to anend, but it's the friendships
that make the most difference.
I just wanna say something Greg saidabout his dad getting him a magazine.
In 1963, when I was 10, we went out toWestern Canada where my father was born.

(01:15:33):
Now, that was a about a threeweek trip because we drove out,
drove around there and came back.
So of course, 10 years old.
Back in those days, they didn'thave phones and computers
and stuff, so I got bored.
Well, we stopped in the grocery storeand my dad bought me a Hot Rod magazine.
It was the Argus issue of 1963.
And I read that thing 30 timesover that I still have it.

(01:15:54):
The, it's torn, it'sfrayed and everything.
And that hooked me.
Yeah, actually my brother and I,uh, I don't know what he said here.
I hope it's not all bad.
You're probably gonna tell the same story.
I'm not going to.
Anyway.
Yeah, my brother and I had gotteninto it years and years ago as kids.
We just loved getting Super Stockmagazine, seeing all the cars that

(01:16:17):
were in there and what have you.
Years passed, I ended up, I got marriedand I had done just a little bit of
drag racing, just a couple of shotsdown the track, and I was talking to
my wife and she said, well, you'vebeen talking about going racing.
Why don't you just go do it?
And she probably regrets that to thisday because we started out, I bought
a 1955 Chevy, which I still have.

(01:16:38):
And in fact, I've run it upat South Mountain Driveway.
It's been at some of the car shows.
I don't know if we had it in museum.
I think it was, but it, it's brightorange and started with one engine.
Actually, I bought it and I rememberwhen we looked at it down in Maryland
and I was with a friend of mine who'spassed away, and I turned to him and I
said, do you think this thing is safe?

(01:16:59):
He said, well, I think safe enough.
Anyway, we ran it for a while, took it upto Beaver Springs and ran it out of 4 0
6 in it at that 0.406 small block and twospeed glide set of five 13 gears in back.
We thought they were four 80eights, but then we counted teeth
and I think it was five thirteens.
Anyway, ran it at Beaver, ran it at SouthMountain, it was running down around 10.

(01:17:22):
Oh, and we said, well, you know, Ithink I should get this thing certified.
There was a certification upat South Mountain one day, and
so I ran up there with the car.
Kurt Leho was inspecting, and helooked at the car and he said,
well, this isn't gonna pass.
This isn't gonna pass, this isn'tgonna pass, and this isn't gonna.
So I turned to him and said,so you're telling me if I stay

(01:17:45):
above 10, oh, I can be safe.
This is fine.
He looked up very slowly and purposefullyand said, well, have you got a wife?
You got kids and I, and atthat point I parked the car and
luckily I had another car to run.
After we got married, I bought a 63Corvette two frame car, ran that for

(01:18:07):
about a year and fixed the 55 Chevy.
So we completely redid the frame on it.
We did all the aluminum work andthen ran the car after that and it
did certify at that point and that'sthe way the car is today with the
exception that I changed the motor.
We ended up, we put a 4 21 smallblock in it and I think it's run
a best up at South Mountain 6 25or something like that up there.

(01:18:32):
So it's a fun car reminiscent to theGassers, although I would call it
more, it's a bracket car at this point.
It started life as a Gasser andthe history on it was that we went
back far enough to find out it hadbeen pulled out of a junk yard.
Similar to what happened with your cars.
Fred had a tree growing out of the centerof it and a friend of mine had pulled it

(01:18:52):
out, you know, restored it as a race carand it went through several iterations and
then finally it, it is where it is today.
In fact, we just had it at theLebanon inch show this past January.
Had a real nice time up there.
It's a great show.
So I'm honored to be here.
It's far from what I expected when Iwalked in the door, but, or desperate.

(01:19:12):
But, uh, nevertheless, you know, I haveto echo what has been said before, which
is really a, racing is a community.
Everybody looks out for each otherand it really, it's a testament to a
group of people that really have thesame interests and care for each other.
Now, I guess at this point,I got one more question.
I got two answers, and you'renot gonna like one of them.

(01:19:35):
How did they designate now youran, when you ran outta s and s
you all ran different classes.
Yes.
What was the difference between A and B?
Was it cubic inches or horsepower?
What made, how did they classify it?
At that time?
The rules were cubic inches.
To weight B was 11pounds to the cubic inch.

(01:19:57):
C was 13, D was I think15 A was maybe seven.
So if you had a 3 0 1 Chevy your carand run B is that weigh 2,709 pounds.
Makes sense.
And they had a p and g tocheck cubic inches award they
made before they invented pg.

(01:20:19):
You had to pull ahead if you gotprotested or you could set the record.
Or cheating.
Huh?
Or cheating.
What?
Cheating.
Never heard that word.
What rules cheating?
They heard.
Do they know what you're talking about?
You know, it's, it's, you know, NHRA.
This was told me, excuseme sir. This is America.
We like to speak English.

(01:20:41):
NHA had the rule block and Ithink they started in 1958.
I'll never forget, George N, who wasthe announcer at York said, yeah,
NHRA tells you what you can't do, butthey don't tell you what you can do.
So everybody cheated, and then the guythat cheated the best one, okay, it
wasn't cheating until you got caught.

(01:21:03):
There you go.
That innovation, that's thesecond part of the slogan.
It wasn't cheap until you got caught.
Ah, okay.
That was before they went horsepower,because Jimmy ditches to wait.
It was that way until they went tobracket racing, which made it so
much easier for everybody but theracers because then double-edged
sword, then you run 10 seconds flat.

(01:21:24):
And if you run quickerthan that, you're out.
You're outta here.
And that's why I quit drag racing.
And if the guy beats you, you'reout because you're racing yourself.
When they made the rule, peoplestarted getting ahead of the other
car, hitting the brakes, sandbaggingto go across the finish line.
Well, in reality, that creates negativecaster, runs the car outta control,

(01:21:45):
most applies the incorrect steering.
And a lot of cars crash.
And I said, I really likeracing to the finish line.
And that's when I went, stock cars fastestcar that, you know, it's very hard for
people to understand bracket racing.
They have.
With delay boxes and blah, blah,blah, blah, and what all that is.
It used to be the fastest car won andthen, but the fastest car don't win.

(01:22:08):
Absolutely.
The the audience, thespectators don't get.
We had more fun, didn't we?
I had heard stories, but then Iactually saw picture someplace
when they raced at York and I thinkthis was at the, uh, the big super
stock, first super stock nationals.
Of course, York was a longtrack with a big shutdown area.
People were lined the whole way up.
They would come out on the track, thecars would leave the line and they'd watch

(01:22:30):
'em come and they'd spread off the track.
Yeah.
And then they'd go past, back on thetrack, next pair come down through.
And that's how it was.
Talk about safety now.
Wasn't that safe, huh?
Yeah.
That was at York.
Yeah.
Yeah.
When they ran four wide.
Yeah, four.
Yeah.
I remember ran people all over,but I'd already experienced that.
Believe.
No, I got that was, there'sa picture of it downstairs.

(01:22:50):
A four car wide deal.
But I just want you to allknow, I mean, I worked there,
but this was before I did that.
The only two cars.
That actually worked off.
The TAing was the center of two cars.
The normal two cars, when they tookoff, the two outer cars took off.
So it really wasn't four, itwas four wide, but it was only
two lanes working the clock.

(01:23:11):
So they ran four wide.
Yeah, but they all looked offChristmas tree and then only the two.
Oh yeah.
And the two in the middle were theones that were, it was all one.
They were the ones that got,they were the ones that got the
time slip, the two outer cars.
There was no time slip.
Yes.
Let's throw it open.
Do you guys out in the audience?
Anybody wanna ask these guys questions?

(01:23:32):
Yeah.
Would the twins loan me some money?
I don't have any left.
Got good answer.
It's in my car.
Good of cars.
How about loaning me acar to race for a year?
That'd be, work that out.
I think you've got this,you break it, you fix it.
Isn't that the, isn't that the guarantee?
You break it, you fix it.

(01:23:53):
That's it.
And don't ever lose.
That happened to me onetime, but play breaks.
Camaro over I Macquarie running.
Right.
That's took it out and blew it up.
So I wound up fixing it, but I, Idid find out what was wrong with it,
but it cost a little time and money.
Yeah, that's the way it goes.
Curious Fred, did you ever get interviewedby the wide World of Sports Fellow?
What's the fla? No, Chris?

(01:24:15):
No, but they interviewed Porkyand it was quite entertaining.
He had a big black wide brimAmy hat on, and of course a
cigarette part of it is on a movie.
What year would it, but Iwould have Amy's eyeballs.
No.

(01:24:35):
Now, uh, the first national televisedrag race was the 1963 Nationals.
It was on Wild World of Sports andit was delayed for them to edit,
and it was on, I think in October.
And it turns out a b, CY Worldof sports showed up and they

(01:24:57):
knew nothing about drag racing.
Here was this guy with media orsomething who turned out to be Monk
Reynolds, who some of you people know.
Yeah.
He went on to do super stockmagazines and drag illustrated.
He was also the promoter of the toplessthing at York, US 30, which never happened
because it rained out that weekend.

(01:25:20):
Oh.
He was quite a promoter.
He was a mailman in Alexandria.
His name was Monk Reynolds and oneof the ram rod show he raffled off.
His street Rod pickup.
Street Rod wasn't a termthen, but that's what it was.
Luckily his brother-in-law won it.
That was the bankroll for Monk.
And he started Eastern Drag News,which morphed into magazines,

(01:25:44):
stock car and super stock, dragillustrated and various other things.
But he was there with Easterndrag news wide world of sports.
Guys, what are we doing?
And in East Coast, car wouldcome to the start line.
Oh, this will be a good run.
And then a California car.
Come to the start line.
Now you want this.
So if you ever watch that and it'savailable, everything's available on

(01:26:07):
the internet, but if you ever watch it.
The vast majority of it.
Every run is an East coast car.
And, uh, pork got interviewedand, uh, quite a few others.
Pork lived right here inHanover, just 10 miles from here.
2 56 Baltimore Street.
There you go.
I slept on the couch.
Many.

(01:26:28):
I bet that was a party, but, uh, yeah.
How about that?
It's amazing how everything's all related,you know, it's, it's really neat, you
know, and Port grew up and became an IRS.
Agent.
No kidding.
I never knew that.
That's after drag racing and Len'sArtman fiberglass at a guitar shop.
He finished college mid to late 20.

(01:26:51):
He interviewed for an FBI job and wasaccepted and he asked for duty station,
no, we assign you duty stations.
Well now he told me a fewyears ago the FBI finally
dropped that program, but then.
He went and interviewed with IRSand they wanted to hire him, and

(01:27:11):
he asked for a duty station andthey said, where do you want to go?
And he said, York, Pennsylvania.
And they says, no problem.
And he was an IRS agent out of theYork, Pennsylvania office and lived at
2 56 Baltimore Street in Hanover fromthe time he got married until he died.

(01:27:32):
I never knew that I stick around.
I got a thousand.
And he did.
He didn't fit the mold.
You never thought he, that'sthe way he'd have been.
He, he knew all the things,the ins and outs all.
Oh, I bet.
Okay.
See, that was before my time.
To the extent that.
He did tax returns for his friends andone of his friends is a Harlow dealer.

(01:27:55):
Well, he is on 30.
It went logger, but loggers.
Well, every time pork wantedto go to Sturgis, guess who
loaned him a motorcycle?
So there is benefits, right?
Oh, there is benefit.
How about that?
Uh, what a small world.
Wow.
How many of you knew pork?
Yeah.
Did he look I in later life, didhe look like Wilford Brumley?

(01:28:17):
Yes.
The TV actor, the mustache.
Okay.
He and David and I in an airport somewhereon a connection, I think we we're
going to hot rod reunion, California.
We're sitting there porktreating his USA today.
Every day read that paper and we'resitting there and these two women.
David and I are lookingat each other portrait.

(01:28:40):
Finally, they stop and they go, excuse me.
Do you know who you look like?
Yes, Paul Newman,
these poor ladies, looked at each other.
Looked at David, and I lookedat pork again and walked away.
But that was poor sense of humor.

(01:29:00):
Yeah.
He was the most straightfaced, hilarious comedian.
But you had to pay attention even if youwere poor or you missed the punchline.
Yep.
He was just that good at it, andI'd have loved to have sat in.
On an I interview with somebody thatwhen he was doing an audit for him,

(01:29:21):
I grew up less than half a mile.
The crow flies from CharlieHills garage in Wrightsville.
I was back in road.
I mean, if I walked down it was,it was less than half a mile, but I
used to hear him fire the engine up.
This is when I was still a kid.
I used to ride a bicycledown there and stuff.
And then when I got to B 15, Ibought my first car, my old 41 Ford.
For a hundred dollars.

(01:29:42):
It was a lot of money.
You better believe it.
I, I mowed grass all summerto buy that son of a bitch.
I still got it.
And uh, you know, and I'd ride downand got to know Charlie and actually
Charlie and Bob Palmer, who raisedDrove bad habit, drove bad habit.
He was a welder stuff.
They actually made some parts'cause you couldn't buy speed
equipment for stuff like that.

(01:30:02):
But he made some parts.
I still have 'em on the caryet, you know, and he's gone.
But it's just sentimental.
It's kind of neat, you know, to have that.
God, that was 55 years ago.
Holy shit.
Where'd it go?
But I just wanna throw that in.
Pork has two sons, right?
Yeah, Greg.
And I'm not good with names.
What's her name?
My understanding is, huh.

(01:30:23):
And my brother and I in a previouslife used to play in a metal band.
And Gary was a guitar player,very good guitar player.
And I was the drummer and their sons.
Were also playing in aband around the same time.
It was Pork Sons.
Yeah.
Both of those guys played in a rock band.
I forget what instrument each oneof them played, but they were on the

(01:30:44):
circuit at the same time we were.
Pork had a guitar shop in Hanover.
What was the name of theguitar shop that you remember?
I'm doing good remembering his name.
I'm doing good.
Remembering that I played drums,pork was, was musical and mm-hmm.
So it rubbed off on his voice.
Yes.
And he and Robin were good parents.

(01:31:05):
I don't know that they ever got intocars, but they were good musicians.
The only race car that pork ever owned.
He and Larry Roberts, who Larry woundup driving the filthy 40 some, had a 32
Chevrolet that was named the Bad News.
They built the car but didn't havea motor and transmission for it.

(01:31:29):
And the US nationals in Detroit in 59 wascoming up and Larry had a new 57 Chevrolet
2 74 speed and he was about a year intothe payments on it when they pulled the
engine and transmission out and rolledit up beside parents' garage and put the
motor in, transmission in the bad newscar and went to Detroit and won C altered,

(01:31:55):
I think they put the motor back in.
Larry's 57 and sold thecar to Bruce Larson.
That's the car over there.
That was the original Mr. The original.
The original and it didn't look that good.
Then I remember seeing picturesof it when it was called bad news.
Yeah, I guess it was some of Jim Amos's.
Videos to be on video and he hassome pictures of it from way back.

(01:32:18):
And then Charlie did a fuel alt alter.
That was a bad news car.
Bad habit.
Bad habit.
Bad habit, bad.
A bad habit.
Yeah, bad habit.
First it was a dirty 30.
Yeah.
And then that was, then it became,Dick Smith had, well actually, yes.
Scott Hoof Magel now has that car.
That's the one Bob Palmer drove.
Right.
And uh, the, see I remember theDirty 30, that one is actually

(01:32:43):
being restored by Scott Hoof.
Magel.
And it's really, you know, whenSmitty had it, it became more of
a bracket car and it, it stilllooks like more of a bracket car.
It's lowered, it doesn't have astraight axle or anything like that.
But it's around a few years ago.
Yep.
Yes it was.
In fact, I was parked right nextto him in my tube frame car.
Oh, okay.
Years ago it was, Smitty was inone, you know, it had us lined

(01:33:05):
up almost like we were racing.
But the bad Habit is ownedby Bill Leininger and that's.
Car is currently in St. Mary's,Ohio, and it was restored.
Mike Guffey had it for a while,and he bought it from Mike Guffey.
So let it still around.
And actually, before the York Show wasfinished, when Darwin started moving
it up here, bill Leininger brought badhabit into that show before the last

(01:33:29):
show or two that they had in York.
Dick Gerber, who's fromLancaster, he's a vor.
He does upholstery work and stuff.
And when that car showed up in York.
He came into the guy got some, oncesomebody got Dick and went over and
Dick confirmed that the upholstery inthat car, which like snapped in the
comic cover snaps, was the originalupholstery that he made for that car.

(01:33:52):
Really?
Yes.
Wow.
So that car was definitely authentic,but Dick said, yeah, that's, I did that.
So that's really neat.
Why'd you guys buy that?
I'm first in line from Bill, so Billbasically said if he ever decides
to sell it, he is calling me first.
It belongs back here.
Not out there.
Damn it.
It was an east coast car.

(01:34:13):
It should be here, you know,but that's what happens.
They get passed around, moved around,but it's amazing how they resurface over
years and stuff and it's put away in agarage someplace and somebody dies or gets
married or something and it's for sale.
Hopefully.
Maybe we'll get back here someday.
Alright, well I'm getting singles.
I'm running out of time here.
I mean, this has been a blast and a half.
Uh, not bored of a second, but doesanybody have any question for the guys?

(01:34:37):
Here we go.
Yeah.
I just wanted to know all thegentlemen on the diet today.
How many of you have worn spandex pants,
or are wearing, I think I did.
I'll answer that.
How many more spandex pants?

(01:34:57):
He doesn't even know what it.
Way back when in the eighties,
we all did some pretty crazy things andpart of being in a heavy metal band was to
look, I'm sure you, I don't wear any, so,

(01:35:18):
so, but back then there was alook that everybody was after.
And so in our previous life, you know,we basically, we would go on stage.
We had fog machines, we had bombsgoing off and everything else.
And, and yes, we wore some pretty bizarrestuff and I'll just leave it at that.

(01:35:39):
But I had a pair of red and blacktiger striped spand deck pants that,
thank God I sat behind a drum set.
And I don't know where theyare anymore, but I do know one
thing I'd never fit in them.
Okay.
Well, I wanna thank all you guys forcoming up here and putting up with me.

(01:36:00):
And Fred
also like to thank Jeff for doing agreat job as the mc for this thing.
Also gonna pass one other word ofthanks out to EJ Kowalski and his.
Gang over there.
One of the things that EJ has beenvery much involved in is the vintage
eliminator, and I think that that issuch a return to the original days of

(01:36:23):
racing, and it is chance for us all toreally relive the past, the way that it
really was a chance to sort of get backto that golden age of drag racing, you
know, even before it was a golden age.
Again, I think what brings mostof us here is the nostalgic value.
And that's got a heck ofa lot of nostalgic values.
So thank you ej.

(01:36:48):
Yeah, thank you all for coming andlaughing at the appropriate moments.
We really all appreciate that.
Once again, I wanna thankFred for bringing the car up.
I mean, that is just, thank you.
That is, and then, and then havinghim as a, whatever you wanna call him,
it's just a riot, you know, so pick upa schedule over here for the rest of

(01:37:09):
the events for the rest of the year.
I want to thank you for all coming,and please come back again and, uh,
anytime we're open, Friday and Saturday.
10 to four.
Thanks again.
We hope you enjoyed this journey throughracing history and the personal stories
that keep the spirit of motorsports alive.
The Eastern Museum of Motor Racingis a premier destination for motor

(01:37:31):
racing enthusiasts, showcasing avast collection of historic racing
cars, artifacts, and memorabilia.
To learn more about the EMMR or to bea part of the next in-person Racers
Roundtable, you can plan your visitor support the museum's mission to
preserve and celebrate the legacy ofracing by heading to www dotr.org.

(01:37:53):
Follow them on social mediafor the latest news, upcoming
events, and exclusive content.
Until next time, keep the enginesrunning and the memories alive.
This episode has been brought to youby Grand Touring Motorsports as part
of our Motoring Podcast network.
For more episodes like this, tune in eachweek for more exciting and educational

(01:38:14):
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If you'd like to support GrandTouring Motor Sports and the Motoring
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