June 29, 2021 • 47 mins
Sometimes the challenges to consistency come from self-sabotage, things like distraction, boredom, imposter syndrome.
But especially for folks who are neurodivergent or dealing with chronic issues or disabilities, consistency comes with additional challenges that require you to figure out how to manage unpredictable energy levels, or how to cope with executive function issues.
Most common productivity advice centers on the idea of trying to do more work, to shove more into the day, to force yourself to change your behavior so you can do more.
But what if you don't want to do more? What if you just want to make it easier on yourself to do the work you love?
Or what if your brain or energy levels just don't work the same way that the productivity bros hawking the advice do? Then a lot of that advice is just downright useless.
The real key is figuring out how your brain works and creating an environment that supports you in doing your best work. And that may take some experimentation, but it probably won’t happen following someone else’s hacks.
Marie Poulin, of Notion Mastery, helps ambitious business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and productivity, so they can spend more time on what matters. She's been an influential voice in the Notion community, has a big following on her Notion Youtube channel, and has created a lot of the Notion resources available today.
Marie also recently discovered that she has ADHD, so her brain works a little differently and things like consistency, scripting or executive functioning–like deciding what to prioritize working on–can be extra challenging.
Marie and I talk about consistency and how critical it was to her success with Notion and her course and community Notion Mastery. We also talk about how discovering she was neurodivergent explained so much about how her brain worked and has helped her figure out how to set up systems that work the way she does.
Listen to the full episode to hear:
- How Marie uses making public commitments as an external motivator to keep herself consistent
- Why she learned to build in opportunities for later iteration and improvement to projects so she can be finished enough for now
- How Marie stumbled into her ADHD diagnosis and how she gave herself permission to accept that her brain works differently
- Tools for noting when and how you work best so you can minimize resistance in your schedule
Learn more about Marie Poulin:
- Mariepoulin.com
- Notion Mastery
- youtube.com/c/mariepoulin
- How to Run Your Life Inside of Notion
- Instagram: @mariepoulin
- Twitter: @mariepoulin
Learn more about Susan:
- Scalespark.co
- Twitter @ScaleSpark
- LinkedIn @thesusanboles
Grab your free ticket to the Autonomous Creative Conference for May 13-15 at beyondmargins.com/autonomous
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marie (00:00):
I have crafted systems around to help me cope. And, you
know, sometimes people are likethey are maybe in awe sometimes
at some of the systems and, oh,I wish I was this organized. I'm
like, you don't understand. If Iwas not this organized, this
cart would go off the rails likeit's pure chaos. Like, it really
is.
You know, chaos is kind of my mydefault state.
Susan (00:25):
Understanding the unique ways that your brain works can
go a long way towards helpingyou be consistent. If you
understand what works and whatdoesn't for you specifically,
you can create systems andsupport structures to help you
be more consistent. I'm SusanBoles, and you're listening to
break the ceiling, the showwhere we break down
(00:46):
unconventional strategies youcan use to save time, boost your
profit, and increase yourcapacity. So much of being able
to be consistent has to do withthe way you work and the systems
you create to help you do thatwork consistently, which means
that you have to figure out howyou work best and where you
(01:07):
particularly struggle. Andthat's different for everyone.
Now that idea runs counter topretty much every productivity
hack out there. Most commonproductivity advice centers on
the idea of trying to do morework, to shove more into the
day, to force yourself to changeyour behavior so you can do
more. But what if you don'twanna do more? What if you just
(01:31):
want to make it easier onyourself to do the work you
love? Or what if your brain orenergy levels just don't work
the same way that theproductivity bros who hawk the
advice do?
Then a lot of that advice isreally just downright useless.
The real key is figuring out howyour brain works and creating an
(01:51):
environment that supports youdoing your best work. And that's
probably not forcing yourself tofollow someone else's hacks, but
experimenting and figuring outwhat works for you. Marie Poulin
of Notion Mastery helpsambitious business owners level
up their digital systems,workflow, and productivity so
(02:12):
they can spend more time on whatmatters. She's been an
influential voice in the Notioncommunity.
She has a big following on herNotion YouTube channel and she's
created a lot of the Notionresources that are available
today. She also recentlydiscovered that she has ADHD, so
her brain works a littledifferently. And things like
consistency or scripting thingsor executive functioning, like
(02:36):
deciding what to prioritizeworking on can be extra
challenging. It's one of thereasons she was drawn to Notion
in the first place. She couldbuild a completely customized
project management system thatworked the way her brain worked.
Marie and I talk aboutconsistency and how critical it
was to her success with Notionand her course and community
(02:58):
Notion Mastery. But also, wetalk about how discovering she
was neurodivergent explained somuch about how her brain worked
and it's helped her figure outhow to set up systems that work
the way she does. Hey, Marie.Thanks for coming back to the
show.
Marie (03:15):
I'm excited.
Susan (03:16):
The last time we were on, you were sort of the beginning
of the you're the Notion person.Yeah. But since then, you have
gone on to become, like, thename of Notion. Like, it's
synonymous. It seems like youwhen you started, you were just
everywhere all at once, but itactually it really hasn't been
that long since you shifted yourbusiness to focus on Notion.
(03:39):
And you said you creditedconsistency as being one of the
major reasons that you'vesucceeded. And I, I mean, I
absolutely agree. Consistency isreally important. But when you
started down this whole YouTubeNotion path, was consistency
actually a focus or a priorityfor you when you started it? How
did you approach, like, I'mgonna go be a YouTube star about
(04:02):
Notion?
There definitely wasn't theplan.
Marie (04:06):
I mean, being consistent in the beginning was part of the
plan because I sort of felt likeI could sense this energy
emerging. I could see, you know,Notion was kind of exploding.
There was this popularity justkind of building. And I sort of
felt like, okay, this is goingto explode. I'm on the cusp of
something.
I started to see other peoplehad some, you know, blogs about
it and courses and some videos,but there still wasn't a ton.
(04:29):
And I thought if I'm going toget known for this, I'm gonna
have to really take itseriously. And so I committed to
doing a YouTube video every weekfor 3 months, which is, I mean,
it's a lot of work for sure. AndI certainly wasn't comfortable
with video at the time, but itwas just the best way to share
about notion. And the videoswere getting so much traction so
(04:51):
quickly, and the the followerson YouTube, it it happened so
fast.
I thought, okay, it was animmediate feedback loop that,
okay, this is gonna be the bestway to get the information out.
So, between that and then doingnotions office hours every week,
I basically had 2 differentsources of content happening
every week for about 3 to 4months. And so if you look at my
YouTube now, you'll see videoslike maybe once every month or
(05:14):
so. And so now I don't have thesame cadence and the same output
that I used to have. But in thebeginning, I think it really,
really mattered because it didfeel like, oh, Marie's
everywhere, and they justassociated me with Notion.
So, right at the beginning whenI was doing that, I think is
kind of when it mattered most.And then in some ways it sort of
bought me some credibility andthen I was able to kind of take
(05:35):
my foot off the gas a littlebit.
Susan (05:37):
So that's super interesting. And you when you
were embarking video every week.That's my that's my commitment
to myself, my commitment to thisproject, and I'm gonna do the
video and the office hours. Whatwas your biggest I guess, what
(05:59):
were your biggest challengesactually doing that? You know,
it's one thing to say, I'm gonnabe consistent.
I'm gonna do this. And then, youknow, like, a week goes by, 2
weeks go by, and you do it, andthen, like, something comes up
the 3rd week, and you're like,no. Maybe I won't.
Marie (06:17):
Yeah. And I definitely feel that now. And I'm I've
shared this before. Like, we canchat a little bit about the ADHD
side of things where I can gothrough wild bursts of intense
focus that can last for days,weeks, sometimes months at a
time. And I sort of look back atthat time in my life and I go,
how on earth did I pull thatoff?
(06:37):
Because that is bananas. And Ithink part of it was that it was
sort of the only thing I hadgoing on. I knew I wanted to
make a Notion course, probablyJuly, August of 20 was it 2018
maybe? And did my first webinarabout Notion in that August. And
a few months later was when Ilaunched the pilot of my course.
(06:59):
So I kind of knew if I was gonnasell a course about notion, I
was, I needed to to build thatcredibility and get that lift.
So I think there's sort ofexternal motivating factors
where I've I've promised peopleI'm gonna do this thing. They're
depending on me. People areasking for it. Ah, there's an
opportunity here.
So I think I'm I'm probably verydriven by that sort of, I don't
know, people pleasing or, youknow, external expectations.
(07:21):
That's a big part of it for me.I kinda know that about myself.
If I, if I make a publicpromise, I'm much more likely to
follow through on it. So therewas, there was that.
And again, just week week, everytime I was releasing a video,
people were blown away. Theywere commenting. There was just
so much engagement. It felt wayeasier. I had something to talk
about and I was actually reallyexcited.
You know, when you're reallypassionate about something, it
(07:43):
it's obviously a lot easier. Soin the beginning, I don't think
it felt like a chore. It wassort of like, oh, okay. Like
another video. Oh, I've beenmeaning share this.
And in, in some ways it was mesharing answers to things that
people were already asking mefor all the time. So I kind of
had this endless stream of, of,you know, video ideas and that
sort of thing. So that, thatkinda kept me going for quite
(08:03):
some time. And then I think atsome point it sort of peers out
and you're like, whew. Okay.
Now I gotta focus on coursecontent. Right? So now if people
are paying for this thing, Iwanna make sure that I have
enough behind the paywall, youknow, that feels valuable and
people aren't like, wait, can'tI just, you know, look at all
your YouTube videos. And sofinding that balance, I think
was very difficult because, youknow, creating content is, is no
(08:24):
joke, right? That's still, ittakes a lot of, time, energy,
and attention.
And so dividing that between mypaid program and, and YouTube,
it sort of meant I needed toshift gears a little bit and
didn't need to be so heavy onall of the free public content
and needed to focus more on thecourse. So that's, that's a
little bit of that that journey,sort of consistent, really heavy
(08:45):
for a short focus burst, andthen sort of, whew. Okay. Now I
need to to focus over here.
Susan (08:51):
And how this is not necessarily related to
consistency, but how did youbreak down what goes public,
what goes in the course, and howdo you balance creating content
for I mean, it's essentially 2channels that are talking about
very similar things and verysimilar content. How did how do
(09:14):
you think about dividing the 2and balancing both the
workloads?
Marie (09:18):
I think this is something I'm probably still working on. I
haven't figured out necessarilythe answer to that, but I can I
can share some of theobservations in that? I think in
a in YouTube, people's attentionspan is so, so, so short, and
you have to get right to thepoint and get really specific.
And I think in some ways thatwas really tricky because people
(09:42):
would be like, get to the point,you know, but then other people
would be like, wait, slow down.You didn't go into X, Y, Z.
And I was like, oh, wow. It wasreally interesting to kind of
try to figure out how muchinformation to give, how fast to
go again. People's attentionspan is very different when
they're paying for a course,they're sort of invested in a
way and they're willing to spenda little bit more time. And so
(10:03):
in some ways, the YouTube is abit more, teasing the
possibilities while showcasingsomething really specific, like
tutorial style. Hey.
Here's how to do this one reallysimple thing in notion. Whereas
the course is, is much moreimmersive. It's a longer, a
longer term experience, if youwill. It's touching upon all of
(10:24):
the habit creation and personalgrowth and other parts that
happen as a result ofintegrating notion into
different parts of your life inbusiness. So it's more
immersive.
A a little deeper, we get a lotmore into the personal
development and growth side ofthings, if that makes sense.
Susan (10:40):
Yeah. Totally. And do you so now that you have both
channels, so at the beginning,you did really focus on YouTube,
and then you really focused oncourse content. And now they're
both, as far as I hear, prettywell established.
Marie (11:00):
Mhmm.
Susan (11:01):
How do you balance creating content now that
there's 2 channels and they'remostly there?
Marie (11:09):
Oh, it's so hard. It's really hard to keep up with with
YouTube now because my myexcitement and my focus, it's
like I really wanna serve thepeople who have already
committed and and paid for thecourse and are immersed in that
and are part of the community.So what I like to do is make
sure that if I'm sort of teasingout a concept, I like to test
(11:29):
that out with the communityfirst. So they always kinda get
first access to things I'mthinking about and, you know,
hey, I'm experimenting with thisnew way of doing something in
Notion. Check it out.
And so there's sort of like thisinner inner circle, and I get to
co create that with people inthe course. And then I can say,
oh, great. Now that we figuredout a way to do this, I can show
one small part of that onYouTube. But I'm I'm less I
(11:51):
don't say less worried now aboutYouTube, but it's sort of if I
can get one video out a month,I'm happy. Obviously, more would
be ideal.
Like, if I could be shipping aweekly video, that would be
awesome. But in some ways, Ifeel like the traction that I've
built up and the sort of SEOjuice and reputation and all
that, a lot of those videos thatare still, you know, 2 years
old. And I know you know thisfrom your podcast too. Right?
(12:13):
It's like the 2 year old videosthat you're like, what?
I did that one thing, and nowsuddenly that's how everybody
knows me. And then they watchthat video and they purchase the
course. So I still have videoslike that that have been around
forever that still are reallyhighly converting. And so in
some ways, as long as you havethat pillar content out there,
that becomes an engine that cankinda keep serving you over and
over again. So, you know, again,I still haven't figured out all
(12:36):
the answers.
I would love to be able to shipa video, at a more weekly
cadence, and maybe part of thatis going even smaller, like
really, really tiny tips andtricks and that sort of thing
because video editing takestime. You know, all all of that
stuff takes time. So I'm stillfiguring out kinda how to
balance that, but I'm also inthe midst of a curriculum
redesign right now. So my focusis just a 100% on how can I make
(12:59):
the paid program the most epicversion of this there can
possibly be? And so I'll work insome ways, you know, you put
marketing on hold a little bit.
It's, the content creation foryour paid programs becomes
priority. So it it's always a abalancing act. Right? When
sometimes you're you're inlaunch mode, other times you're
in ideation mode, creation mode,kinda wavering between the 2. So
(13:20):
it's it's like a teeter totter.
There's always a bit of give andtake.
Susan (13:24):
Yeah. I've noticed similar since my course
launched. It was very much Ifocus on the content creation,
then you focus on the marketing,then you go back and do
curriculum updates and then
Marie (13:34):
back on the marketing side. So, yeah,
Susan (13:34):
I I feel that I'm so, yeah, I I feel
Marie (13:39):
that. You know the deal.
Susan (13:41):
Well and, you know, as soon as I finish something, I'm
like, oh oh oh, I could makethis better. I'll have to be
like, nope. Just put it on thelist for next time. It's okay.
Marie (13:49):
Good enough for now. You know? Yeah.
Susan (13:50):
You don't have to fix it right now.
Marie (13:52):
It's okay. Exactly.
Susan (13:54):
So were there any downsides
Marie (14:11):
was was doubling down on it. I sort of saw it as an
experiment, a chapter. I'm like,let's see what happens. Because
I've been a generalist for so,so long. Like I just have
handled so many different partsof a project and I didn't really
have a singular positioning orfocus.
And so doubling down on Notionwas kind of the first time I
(14:34):
thought, what if, what if I wereto get known for this really one
specific thing? So it was atotal experiment, and the growth
was explosive. And I was like,well, feed a starving crowd.
Right? It's it, it makes thingsso much easier when people know
how to find you because what youdo is so specific.
So I would say it was, a reallysmart move for me, to, to do
(14:56):
that doubling down and justbeing really consistent for a
very, very focused burst. Ican't, I can't say I can think
of any downsides other than it,it does take up a lot of your
time. Of course, it's a, it's acommitment. And, but it was
definitely worth it. I'd say.
Susan (15:12):
I'm curious how you prioritized making that time. So
in order to be consistent, inorder to be really hyper focused
on something, you have tobalance other things.
Marie (15:24):
Mhmm. And
Susan (15:25):
at this point, you had a software. You had your
consulting. You had other stuffgoing on. How did you think
through, you know, what are yougonna give up? What are you
gonna prioritize?
How are you gonna balance all ofthese things?
Marie (15:40):
Yeah. I mean, as you said, you you do have to make
sacrifices, and you have to askyourself, like, what do you want
in the long term? And I knewthat I wanted to develop a
course about Notion. I've madecourses before, and I know
they're they're not a smallthing. Even a small course.
It takes a lot out of you,right? To not just create the
content, but to market it, totalk about it. There's just a
lot of moving parts with anonline course. So a few things.
(16:01):
I think one was hiring my,assistant executive assistant,
who is now my director of ops.
So she's become my first fulltime employee. And so I brought
her on shortly before the courselaunched as a in a sort of light
capacity, kinda started todelegate a few tasks. And then I
started letting go of clients. Iactually started saying, well,
(16:24):
what if the only work that I didfor the next 6, 12 months was
only notion related consulting.So I pretty much let go of
almost everyone that wasn't areally, really well established
long term client, and and juststarted kind of referring out
and saying, hey, you know, I'mmy business is the business
focus is changing a bit, and Iwon't be able to serve you in
(16:47):
the same way.
Here's someone that might beable to help you. And I just
heard to refer out old clients,saying ruthless, you know, being
ruthless about saying no toanything that was not aligned
with that for that short amountof time. And, around the same
time too, my husband got a fulltime job. So we actually took a
step back from the software too,and and he kind of went off and
(17:07):
did his own thing. So we knewthat we had really stable
income.
I knew that I could, kind of getaway with letting go of some of
those client projects. And Iknew I had a little bit of
runway to work with, and Ithought I'm just gonna make the
most out of this runway. Soyeah. Ruthless prioritization.
Really asking yourself what itis that you want long term.
And I I really, really wanted tocreate this course and do a
(17:29):
really great job of it. So itwas, it was definitely the
majority of my focus for thosemonths. And I was just so
excited about it. I think, thebeginning of projects is very,
very exciting and motivating forme. So I had no problem just
like, throwing myself in thereentirely.
Susan (17:44):
So I am curious because I am the same way. So I love the
beginning of projects. I willthrow myself wholeheartedly in.
And somewhere around the middleand especially, like, the last
(18:04):
start of the to the finish.Like, the start of the the
finish in the middle are reallydifficult.
How how did that play out foryou? And what what did you do?
Marie (18:17):
Yes. This is it's very relatable. It's so easy to
start. It's so easy to, putteralong, and it's that final it's
like the, what, last 20% of aproject that takes 80% of the
time. Right?
It's, limping to the finishline. So, again, part of it is
hiring a little bit of that helpand that accountability. I do
feel like the course for me, ittook a long time for it to feel
(18:41):
complete. So I launched it inbeta. It was a pilot program.
Everyone that that initiallyjoined the course was sort of a
cocreator. And, you know,through their questions in the
live calls, I would be revampingthe material, and it just sort
of felt like I was revamping thematerial all the time. And it
sort of felt like, oh my gosh.Does this is this project, you
know, gonna never end? So I'dsay it took a good 6 months
(19:03):
between starting the course andactually feeling like, okay, I
can call this kind of complete.
And then I'd say it still tookmany, many months after that.
And just, the more people thatwent through the course and the
more I would see the gaps and Iwould see the potential. And I
was like, okay. A part of me waslike, well, what if what if
actually it's okay that thiscourse doesn't really complete?
(19:26):
And that might sound kind ofinsane, but I was like, if one
of my strengths is the iterationand the improvement process, and
I do always kind of see thoseopportunities and I wanna keep
making it better.
What if that's just part of theway the course grows? How could
I put the foundational elementsin place and kinda lock that
down and be like, that'scomplete. But then the rest of
the course could be more of aresource library that could grow
(19:48):
over time, and I can when I'mfeeling energetic and when I
feel like there there's anopportunity, I can go and
rerecord those videos. So insome ways, I kinda gave myself
permission to be like, it'sokay. You can keep working on
this thing.
It's gonna keep getting betterover time, but make sure at
least the beginning fundamentalsare locked down and and
complete. But having myassistant, Georgia, to kind of,
(20:10):
Amory, we're, like, missing avideo here, or this needs to be
complete and kinda, you know,get on my back a little bit
about that was was very helpful.
Susan (20:19):
Yep. Maybe maybe I need a Georgia.
Marie (20:21):
Everyone needs a a Georgia. But I will say that is
definitely something I I stillstruggle with for sure is is
it's always the finish of aproject that is really, really
difficult. So, I I feel like Ihave to find ways to to trick
myself and motivate myself intojust getting it done.
Susan (20:36):
Yeah. I I also struggle with the finish. I am great with
designing the thing. I'm greatwith the ideation. That part is,
like, super easy.
Like, it just flows. And then,yeah, towards the end,
Marie (20:49):
you're just Gotta hire hire the finishers. Right? Hire
the people who know how to helpyou.
Susan (20:54):
Yeah. I still gotta do that. I don't not in the mood
for that. Let's just push thatoff. Mhmm.
So you recently discovered thatyou have ADHD. How has that
changed how you approachconsistency, how you think about
consistency? Has it has itexplained or changed the way you
(21:15):
thought about anything?
Marie (21:17):
Oh, man. It's yeah. Part of me was like, how did I not
see this sooner? Like, it seemsso obvious in hindsight, but in
in some ways, I feel like even Imaybe contributed to some of the
stigma because I was like, oh,come on. That's all of us.
We all have the it was like Iresonated so hard with
everything, all of the memes andall of the hilarious jokes and
(21:37):
descriptions. And I was like,yeah. Yeah. But come on. Like,
that's all of us.
And at some point I was like,wait a second. Maybe maybe it
resonates so hard because that'sme. Like, and it really, it
really shook me. I was, I wasquite surprised in a way,
because my sister has ADHD too,and she is, you know, what I
would call maybe the posterchild of what you think of when
(21:57):
you think of ADHD, of that sortof completely hyperactive,
extreme extroversion, inabilityto kinda, motivate yourself to
follow through. And I know shehas really struggled over the
years with school and, you know,I was I I fast tracked through
through high school and, youknow, did university and stuff.
So I thought, well, there's noway. Like, obviously I've been,
like, self directed and runningmy own business and all this
(22:19):
stuff. But the more I I learnedabout it and the more I
uncovered, I started to be like,oh my gosh, that explains so
much. And it explains some ofthe exhaustion, I think, around
maybe even hiding some of thoseparts that we're really not, not
proud of, or, you know, thatsometimes it takes, it takes a
client being like, Hey, justchecking in before I'm like, oh
(22:39):
right. Oh my gosh.
I should follow-up with thatclient. Right. There were, there
were things that I, I think Ihave crafted systems around to
help me cope. And, you know,crafted systems around to help
me cope. And, you know,sometimes people are like, they
are maybe in awe sometimes atsome of the systems and, oh, I
wish I was this organized.
I'm like, you don't understand.If I was not this organized,
this cart would go off therails. Like, it's pure chaos.
(23:02):
Like, it really is, you know,chaos is kind of my my default
state. And so I think I've hadto almost I found these ways of
tricking my brain, but I didn'trealize that in a way it was, it
was coping with the way that mybrain works and even being self
employed.
Like I didn't really realizeI've I've kind of joked about
being unemployable and, youknow, get getting to work on
(23:23):
time has been a problem myentire life. Like, I don't know
if I've ever made it to work ontime and and that's, it's kind
of an embarrassing thing tothink about. Right? Or it's, I'm
not proud of that, but gettingup in the morning and funny
enough, I was watching a videoabout, you know, what is ADHD
and, and how does it often getkind of missed in women? And,
and that was actually the firstthing that kind of triggered it
(23:45):
was extreme difficulty gettingup in the morning.
And I was like, what? Okay. Likethis has been an issue. I used
to have 3 alarm clocks in my, inmy bedroom when I was in high
school and I would still be,like, running down the street,
like, trying to make the bus ontime. And it I was it was chaos.
And so I was like, is thatthat's a symptom? And I started
doing a little bit of researchand just all sorts of funny
(24:07):
little quirks that I thoughtwere quirks. And I was like, oh,
wow. It would explain a lot ofthese behaviors. It would
explain, even in calls.
Often when I'm in a call withsomeone and my brain is going
like a 1000000 miles an hour andI'm like interrupting thoughts
with other thoughts. And, sothese things that I just kind of
thought were quirks or thingsthat I was maybe embarrassed
about, I thought, oh, there'sthere might actually be a
(24:30):
reason, and my brain might mightactually work a different way.
And it I think it's what has ledme to be really great at
strategic work and ideation and,all this, you know, creative
projects and why I can havethese really, really intense
hyperfocus bursts of energy, butfollowed by, well, I just
alright. Well, Marie doesn'twanna do that, so she's not
(24:51):
gonna do that. House, you know,even my house being in a state
of complete disarray, but thenmy my business is always humming
along.
Right? It's like, how can I runa a successful business and,
work with these these big nameclients and stuff, but but my
house is in a in complete chaos?So it's been an interesting
process to uncover what are thethings about this that have
(25:14):
actually helped me succeed andwhere are the parts that I've
struggled with and maybe have,have hidden even from myself or
maybe that I denied or, or wasembarrassed about, or, or maybe,
spent a lot of energy masking.And it was very permission
giving to go, oh, what if that'sjust how my brain works? And now
I can find ways to work with itand stop judging myself so
(25:37):
harshly about that stuff.
So it was quite a, a process ofhighs and lows and compassion
for myself. And then also justbeing like, how the f did I miss
this? Like, 37, 38. I'm like,how how on earth did I miss this
information? So
Susan (25:53):
I think that's really interesting, and I love the idea
of just accepting that that ishow your brain works and then
using systems, using tools towork with your brain instead of
trying to force your brain intosomebody else's box of how they
think things are supposed towork or even, like, your own
(26:15):
idea of how things are supposedto work. Can you talk a little
bit about some of the tools orsystems that you've put in place
that have made a significantdifference to you being able to
run a successful business andbe, seemingly from the outside,
very organized. It may not bethat way behind the scenes.
(26:37):
That's fine. But from theoutside, it looks very organized
and lovely.
Marie (26:41):
Yeah. I mean, there there is lots of pieces that are
organized, and I think there'salso, you know, parts that might
feel a bit chaotic. And again,part of that has been having a
team that can fill some of thosegaps and and even like a team
that understands how I work andand can be supportive in that
way. You know, I often feel verychaotic when I'm when I'm
talking or or let's say I'm I'min a strategy session with with
(27:03):
team members, and I can see, youknow, Georgia is, like, very
quiet and taking notes, and I'mjust doing my thing and brain
dumping and being chaotic. Andthen toward the end, she can be
like, so as next steps, what I'mseeing is a, b, and c.
And I'm like, yes. That'sbrilliant. And and just someone
who can kind of translate alittle bit of that creative
energy into really practicalnext steps has been incredible.
(27:24):
So, you know, again, having anassistant whose brain works very
different than mine, much morelinear, logical, maybe slower
and, and sort of, I wanna saymore intentional, but it's just,
it's a little bit of a differentenergy. That's been huge.
Time blocking huge. Like it'slike I have to force myself into
these little containers tocontain the chaos. And so,
(27:47):
theming my days, time blocking,giving myself those containers
wherever possible, embracing thehyperfocus while also even my
husband and I like we'll getinto those wild bursts of focus
where it's like, I'm in thezone. Don't bother me. Please
make me dinner.
You know, making sure you've gotyour, your support network in
place is, is huge. And, andjust, I mean, another, another
(28:10):
thing I'll add is I work onweekends and I actually love
working on weekends because itis quiet. Nobody is bothering
me. I can get a burst of workdone and then I'm like, go out
and play in the garden and thencome back and do some more work.
And, and I think I used to carrya lot of, shame and judgment
around that of like, oh,recovering workaholic and this
(28:30):
sort of thing.
And, and so actually the ADHDthing helped me understand, oh,
my brain is just never, it justnever stops. Like I'm just
always thinking of likepossibilities and connections
are forming and I just get sofired up. And for me, it's
actually rejuvenating and it'sexciting to be taking a course
on the on the weekend or,working on a YouTube video. And
(28:51):
so I, I kind of gave myself abit of permission to say, work
how you best work. And if younotice that you're, you're kind
of in the zone of feeling reallyinspired, harness that, listen
to it, take advantage of it.
And so sometimes I'll have tointerrupt my husband and be
like, hold on. Like, I'm in thezone. You know, I'm I'm feeling
really creative right now. Canwe table this discussion?
Because I just I need to to workon this thing.
I need to get writing done,whatever it is. So part of it is
(29:14):
just listening to my brain,listening to my body, knowing
what I need and forgetting someof those shoulds. And I just, I
don't work in a 9 to 5environment or or schedule, and
that's okay. And my team knowsthat. And so, again, just
finding ways to work with youryour Another one is, you know,
(29:42):
how you hear people say, youknow, eat the frog and do the
most difficult thing in themorning, right?
And you hear these sorts ofproductivity, best practices and
advice, and, and then you feelashamed because you're like,
well, why, why does this not
Susan (29:55):
work for
Marie (29:56):
me? And that difficulty getting up in the morning, it
takes my brain at least 2 hoursto actually wake up and do
anything productive. Sorealizing nothing effective is
gonna happen before 10:11 am,for sure. So I book meetings in
the mornings because, my brainis still waking up, but in terms
of writing or creative work oranything like that, that has to
(30:18):
happen like 3, 4 pm. And, youknow, you can, you can say like,
oh, the early bird gets theworm, but I'm sorry.
My brain is not active at thattime. And so honestly, a lot of
it's just been letting go of alot of the traditional
productivity advice and asking,what do I know is true Like I
(30:42):
track my daily effectiveness,happiness, feelings when I'm in
flow. I've been tracking my flowfor years, and so I can actually
look back at the data from myjournal and say, oh, wow.
Wednesdays are actually the mosteffective day of the week, and
I'm most in flow. That's reallyinteresting.
And I can use that data to helpme make better decisions about
(31:02):
my day. So where some people arelike, oh, wow, you're so
organized. I'm like, you don'tunderstand. I have to be because
otherwise it's chaos.
Susan (31:10):
Yeah. That's so interesting. And I love the idea
of just tracking your data andyour energy and data to
schedule. And I did somethingvery similar with I'm completely
(31:30):
the opposite of you. So I haveto if I don't write it first
thing in the morning, it ain'thappening that day.
Like, I have to do I have to doadmin and email stuff in the
afternoon because if I get intoit and I haven't done the thing
that I am supposed to like, thething that requires focus, like,
if I have to write an intro fora podcast or whatever that has
to happen first thing or isjust, like, my brain is mush by,
(31:52):
like, 2 o'clock in theafternoon. But it took me a
really long time of, like,tracking to figure out, like,
okay. Cool. If it doesn't happenbefore lunch, it ain't
happening. So how can I schedulemy days and schedule plan out
how my work works so that I canwork the best way for me and how
(32:14):
my energy levels and my brainworks?
And I love that you've donesomething similar and that it is
completely the opposite.
Marie (32:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's you can read all the
productivity advice, but at theend of the day, nobody knows
your circumstances, your brain,your energy better than than you
do. So I I like to pay attentionto that and be like, what are
the trends?
What are some things I can seethat work? Where do I notice
resistance? And how can Ibasically design resistance out
of my schedule or or at least tominimize it as much as possible
(32:42):
knowing I might have maybe less,I don't know, motivation or
willpower or whatever to workwith? And so how do I work with
that?
Susan (32:51):
Yes. I love this idea of paying attention to where
there's resistance and trying tounderstand why there's
resistance. You know? Is itsomething because, I don't feel
like I know how to do this task?I don't it's just something I
don't wanna do.
I'm never gonna wanna do it.Find somebody you have somebody
on your team who does wanna dothose things and hand them off
(33:11):
and being able to really, lookat how you work as an experiment
that, at least for me, is kindof constantly evolving. You
know, I'll try something and go,that didn't work. So, like, I
guess 2019, I tried doing, like,I would schedule a break week.
Like, so once a month, there wasa break week where I didn't have
(33:31):
any meetings.
I didn't have anything. Like, Iwas trying to really focus on
recovery for burnout. So I waslike, I need a lot of like, I
need time off. And the first,like, 2 or 3 times, I would go
around my own boundaries andschedule stuff, and I would get
to my break week and I'd belike, I don't I have to work the
whole week. How did that happen?
Marie (33:51):
Oh, I've definitely been there. Like,
Susan (33:54):
that wasn't supposed to happen. How did that happen? And
then going back and realizingthat it was me. Like, I was the
one that was doing that, where Iwas like, oh, you know, this is
somebody that I like talking to.We'll just schedule a meeting.
It'll
Marie (34:04):
be fun. Special exceptions. Mhmm.
Susan (34:06):
Like, I special exceptions my way out of a break
week, and it took me probably 3or 4 months before I was like,
oh, okay. Cool. My boundariesare my boundaries. It's totally
okay if they if I schedule themfor the next week. There's
plenty of time.
It's not urgent. But it did. Ittook me like it probably took me
4 months before I actually,like, figured out what was going
(34:28):
on. And it was just anexperiment of, does this work?
Nope.
That doesn't work. Why doesn'tthat work? Okay. Let's try
something else.
Marie (34:36):
I love that you said, yeah, it took you 3 to 4 months,
and I'm laughing becauseliterally last week, I had 7 or
8 calls, and it was meant to bemy week off. And I was like, how
did this happen? How did thishappen? Yeah.
Susan (34:48):
Whoops. Yeah. Oh, like and so I've been doing that for
a year and I still probablylike, 1 or 2 meetings that week
still usually Sneak in.Something that I'm, like, super
excited about, so I don't wannawait. Totally.
Marie (35:06):
I know. Yeah. It's hard. It's like I'm excited about
everything. Like, oh, god.
How do I how do I contain this?
Susan (35:12):
I am curious. So you mentioned, about the hyperfocus,
and I'm wondering if after supersuper hyper focused on something
and I can go for a couple ofweeks probably, and then I'll
get to a point where I'm just,like, I it's it's used up. I
(35:34):
used everything up. I don't knowwhat to do. How do you deal with
those?
Do you plan for them? Becausethey can be kind of
unpredictable. You never quiteknow when your energy is just
gonna be like, and we're done.
Marie (35:44):
100%. It's like so it's so relatable because, like I
said, with the the beginning ofthe YouTube stuff, it felt like
months when I look back, I'mlike, wow. From September to
December, that was a wild burstof focused. Like, how the heck
did I do that and how do Ichannel that? And sometimes I'm
like, does every year just kindaget like 3, 4 months where it's
like go time?
(36:05):
And I'm I'm trying to noticethose patterns at a bigger
level. But like you said, youdon't know sometimes. Is this
just like a week of inspiredcreativity? Is it is it gonna
happen for months? And you oftendon't really know, and it can be
hard to hard to predict.
So I don't necessarily, youknow, know what the answer is,
but but I am just kindawatching, paying attention,
noticing. And and like you said,knowing that often, if I do have
(36:26):
a week of intense, intensehyperfocus, I am gonna be more
gentle on myself the followingweek because I do definitely
have those crashes where youkinda feel useless. And I think
the hardest part is that selfcompassion and not beating
myself up the next week whereit's like, oh, I feel like I
should be doing this or shouldbe doing that. I'm like, calm
down. You were really, really,you know, did superhuman tasks
(36:50):
the last week and cramming,like, 3 weeks worth of work into
1 week.
You can calm down and and kindatake this week a little bit
chill. But it is very difficult,difficult not to kind of beat
yourself up a little bit. So I'mlearning I'm trying to, you
know, be a little bit morecompassionate with myself. I'm
curious if those
Susan (37:08):
either the lows or the productivity, how how do you
find that that works withhaving, like, a a course, a
community where there is sort ofan expectation that somebody's
gonna show up regularly, like,that there will be content of
some sort at some point, andthat may or may not line up with
(37:30):
you feeling like working.
Marie (37:32):
I think what's what's cool, at least what I I really
appreciate about the format ofthe course is it's fairly set it
and forget it. So in some ways,as long as I'm doing the bare
minimum that week, which wouldbe, you know, logging into
circle and checking if there'sany messages. And and even then
there's lots of other peoplethat are answering questions in
the forum. It's not just me. Sothat's that's one piece is, you
(37:54):
know, log in.
At least say hello to any newpeople that have joined.
Check-in if there's anythingthat needs me. So, like, that
feels pretty shallow work. Like,it's pretty easy to do. And then
I do live office hours onceevery 2 weeks.
So, and I find those incrediblyenergizing. Like, I'm usually
(38:19):
difficult because and, again,this this comes back to what
gives you energy, and how do youbest show up? And I know I am
actually at my best when it'sunscripted and it's unplanned.
So in office hours, it is soeasy because I'm like, oh, I get
to connect with people, answertheir questions, problem solve,
troubleshoot, like, woo hoo.Like, that just gets my brain
(38:40):
fired up, and it's so easy.
So that's actually likely togive me energy on an off week,
but planning curriculum andscripting a video, anything that
requires that preplanning and,like, planning out what I'm
gonna say and making sure thatI'm covering all the key points,
like, that feels like a wholedifferent energy, and it takes a
lot out of me. And that'sanother reason why I have
(39:02):
assistance with that. So I hireda learning advocate. I'm working
with a curriculum developer. Sopeople who can give me the
structure so that I know whatvideos to make, and I can be a
little bit more impulsive.
But that's, that's somethingthat I've learned about myself
is, you know, even adding eventslike hot seats where someone can
pre submit, Hey, I'm trying tosolve this one thing in my
(39:22):
workspace. How would I approachthis? And then we hop on live,
and it's basically like a live 1hour coaching session that other
people can drop in on and watchif they want to. But being on
the spot, weirdly enough, likeyears ago, I would never have
thought this would be the case,but being on the spot and being
kind of impulsive and at theready is actually so easy and so
energizing. So I don't actuallyfeel like even if I had a week
(39:43):
where I felt kind of drained,that part of, of sort of my
responsibilities
Susan (39:57):
things that energize you, that the, like, the minimum
requirements of keeping whatyou're doing alive are things
that bring you energy, thingsthat are easy. Because I think,
so often, we feel like thingsthat are easy are less valuable.
That's true. Yeah. Like, thisweird switch in our brain.
Then we're like, oh, this issomething that is super easy for
(40:18):
me. So people might not find itvaluable when, in fact, those
are the things that peopleusually find most valuable or
the things that are easy foryou. But sometimes that feels
not not okay.
Marie (40:30):
Well, Well, I I think that's it's become kind of baked
into the values with the teamtoo. And, again, I think a lot
of this is the result of ADHD,but I didn't realize it's it is
very, very difficult for me tosummon up the wherewithal if I
am not super, super stoked aboutthe thing, the task that I need
to do. And so for everyone onthe team, I wanna make sure is
(40:50):
everybody doing what they are sofreaking excited about that they
can't believe they get paid todo that. That is my desire for
everybody on the team, thatthey're doing the stuff that is
fun, that nobody feels likethey're sort of, dragging their
feet, like, oh, I have to dothis, because that's kinda how I
operate. And so in many ways, II think it's an exciting place
for for people to work toobecause they're like, woah.
(41:10):
Like, I get paid to do this.This is so fun. And that's the
vibe that I want everybody to besuper aligned with your talents,
super aligned with yourstrengths. I don't know if
you've if you've done, like, youknow, those personality tests.
We've done principles you is areally fun one.
Myers Briggs, Enneagram. Sowe've gotten different team
members to kind of fill outthose things, strengths finder.
And we've mapped them outtogether too, so you can sort of
(41:32):
see, oh, wow. We can see who arethe detailed and reliable folks
and who are the creativeconceptual folks. And,
Susan (41:37):
Oh, I love that.
Marie (41:38):
It's been really fun. Like, I've been told I have an
uncanny ability to, kind ofbring people in based on an
intuitive sense of of kind ofwhere their skill set fits in.
So that's been reallyinteresting to just notice. Oh,
wow. We we kinda cover, like, areally interesting range of
skills.
And then even something assimple as, like, I I don't think
(42:00):
I'm necessarily the most skilledinstructor, but I I think I have
a knack for some of the morelike coaching or or maybe more
facilitation. But then we haveother people that are, they're
really strong on instruction andthat sort of thing. So how can
we make sure that we designevents so that the instructors
get to instruct and the coachesget to coach? And what does that
look like and how do we kinda,you know, fill the calendar with
(42:22):
these different types of eventsthat draw people in in different
ways? And and that's been reallyfun.
Susan (42:27):
I love that. So as we wrap up, is there anything you
think we should talk about ortouch on that we haven't yet?
Marie (42:34):
You know, I think we we, I think we judge ourselves
really harshly, and especiallywhen life happens, we sort of
think, we need to be everywhereall the time. And, you know, in
some ways, I'm I'm consistentabout showing up. It just looks
very different from season toseason or week to week or month
to month. Sometimes I'll spend amonth where I'll actually get a
(42:54):
newsletter out every week for 1month and then not for another
month. But I'm also on Twitterreally actively.
So in, in some ways, I'mconsistently always online. It's
just not always with the sameformats all the time. And so, it
hasn't stopped me from beingable to grow a really successful
business. And so I would justkind of encourage I do this one
(43:17):
thing all the time every week.It can look a little bit
different.
And I do this one thing all thetime every week. It can look a
little bit different. And so Ithink giving ourself permission
to approach things in seasonsand Awesome.
Susan (43:38):
So where can up on.
Marie (43:39):
Awesome.
Susan (43:40):
So where can our listeners find you if they wanna
connect or learn more about whatyou do?
Marie (43:44):
Yeah. You can find me online, mariepoulan.com. And if
you're curious on the Notionside of things, notion
mastery.com, and pretty activeon Twitter or Instagram. You can
usually find me at my handle atmariepoulin.
Susan (43:57):
Sometimes the challenges to consistency come from self
sabotage, things like gettingdistracted by shiny objects or
getting bored or impostersyndrome rearing its ugly head
right at the point where you'regetting ready to launch the
thing. But especially for folkswho are neurodivergent or
dealing with chronic healthissues or disabilities,
(44:19):
consistency comes withadditional challenges that
require you to figure out how tomanage unpredictable energy
levels or how to cope withexecutive function issues.
Regardless of your specificchallenges with consistency, the
key to becoming more consistentis figuring out what you
struggle with and thenexperimenting to figure out what
(44:39):
works for you. For Marie, shetracked her energy and focused
and figured out that Wednesdaysare really productive for her.
And that she had to work on hardthings in the afternoon or
whenever the inspiration struck,even if that happened to be a
weekend.
For me, I realized that I neededreally big stretches of break
(44:59):
time and then I needed to workon hard things in the morning.
We both came to those systems bytrying new things, seeing what
worked and what didn't, and thenmodifying as we went. So does
time blocking help you or do youfeel constrained or trapped by
it? Do you work best in themorning or in the evening? Are
there certain days of the weekor weeks of the month where you
(45:22):
just don't have the energy towork?
A lot of figuring out what worksfor you is just trying to notice
and collect some data that youcan use to try new techniques
and new tools. Ashley Gartlandrealized she needed more breaks,
so she started planning her workto allow her to take 1 week off
per month. Tara McMullen noticedthat she gets a big energy slump
(45:44):
in the fall when the timechanges, so she plans a few
weeks off from work at thatpoint in time. Brittney Berger
created an energy tracker tohelp her notice when she has the
energy to work or when she hasbig slumps so that she could
plan her work for when she hasthe most chance of having the
energy to do the work. Thatenergy tracker is fantastic, by
(46:05):
the way, and I've included alink to it in the show notes.
Each one of these folks sharedtheir with me and these were
ones that kind of soundedhelpful for me. I experimented
with and eventually haveimplemented all of these. I'm
continually experimenting withand creating systems to support
me and to help me be moreconsistent. And a lot of that
(46:26):
just comes from trying thingsand noticing what's working and
what doesn't. It's all aboutfiguring out what works and
doesn't work for you.
If you liked this episode, I'dreally appreciate it if you
shared with someone you thinkwould enjoy it and would benefit
from it. Break the Ceiling isproduced by Yellow House Media.
Our executive producer is SeanMcMullen. Our production
(46:47):
coordinator is Lou Blazer.
I have crafted systems around to help me cope. And, you
know, sometimes people are likethey are maybe in awe sometimes
at some of the systems and, oh,I wish I was this organized. I'm
like, you don't understand. If Iwas not this organized, this
cart would go off the rails likeit's pure chaos. Like, it really
is.
You know, chaos is kind of my mydefault state.
Susan (00:25):
Understanding the unique ways that your brain works can
go a long way towards helpingyou be consistent. If you
understand what works and whatdoesn't for you specifically,
you can create systems andsupport structures to help you
be more consistent. I'm SusanBoles, and you're listening to
break the ceiling, the showwhere we break down
(00:46):
unconventional strategies youcan use to save time, boost your
profit, and increase yourcapacity. So much of being able
to be consistent has to do withthe way you work and the systems
you create to help you do thatwork consistently, which means
that you have to figure out howyou work best and where you
(01:07):
particularly struggle. Andthat's different for everyone.
Now that idea runs counter topretty much every productivity
hack out there. Most commonproductivity advice centers on
the idea of trying to do morework, to shove more into the
day, to force yourself to changeyour behavior so you can do
more. But what if you don'twanna do more? What if you just
(01:31):
want to make it easier onyourself to do the work you
love? Or what if your brain orenergy levels just don't work
the same way that theproductivity bros who hawk the
advice do?
Then a lot of that advice isreally just downright useless.
The real key is figuring out howyour brain works and creating an
(01:51):
environment that supports youdoing your best work. And that's
probably not forcing yourself tofollow someone else's hacks, but
experimenting and figuring outwhat works for you. Marie Poulin
of Notion Mastery helpsambitious business owners level
up their digital systems,workflow, and productivity so
(02:12):
they can spend more time on whatmatters. She's been an
influential voice in the Notioncommunity.
She has a big following on herNotion YouTube channel and she's
created a lot of the Notionresources that are available
today. She also recentlydiscovered that she has ADHD, so
her brain works a littledifferently. And things like
consistency or scripting thingsor executive functioning, like
(02:36):
deciding what to prioritizeworking on can be extra
challenging. It's one of thereasons she was drawn to Notion
in the first place. She couldbuild a completely customized
project management system thatworked the way her brain worked.
Marie and I talk aboutconsistency and how critical it
was to her success with Notionand her course and community
(02:58):
Notion Mastery. But also, wetalk about how discovering she
was neurodivergent explained somuch about how her brain worked
and it's helped her figure outhow to set up systems that work
the way she does. Hey, Marie.Thanks for coming back to the
show.
Marie (03:15):
I'm excited.
Susan (03:16):
The last time we were on, you were sort of the beginning
of the you're the Notion person.Yeah. But since then, you have
gone on to become, like, thename of Notion. Like, it's
synonymous. It seems like youwhen you started, you were just
everywhere all at once, but itactually it really hasn't been
that long since you shifted yourbusiness to focus on Notion.
(03:39):
And you said you creditedconsistency as being one of the
major reasons that you'vesucceeded. And I, I mean, I
absolutely agree. Consistency isreally important. But when you
started down this whole YouTubeNotion path, was consistency
actually a focus or a priorityfor you when you started it? How
did you approach, like, I'mgonna go be a YouTube star about
(04:02):
Notion?
There definitely wasn't theplan.
Marie (04:06):
I mean, being consistent in the beginning was part of the
plan because I sort of felt likeI could sense this energy
emerging. I could see, you know,Notion was kind of exploding.
There was this popularity justkind of building. And I sort of
felt like, okay, this is goingto explode. I'm on the cusp of
something.
I started to see other peoplehad some, you know, blogs about
it and courses and some videos,but there still wasn't a ton.
(04:29):
And I thought if I'm going toget known for this, I'm gonna
have to really take itseriously. And so I committed to
doing a YouTube video every weekfor 3 months, which is, I mean,
it's a lot of work for sure. AndI certainly wasn't comfortable
with video at the time, but itwas just the best way to share
about notion. And the videoswere getting so much traction so
(04:51):
quickly, and the the followerson YouTube, it it happened so
fast.
I thought, okay, it was animmediate feedback loop that,
okay, this is gonna be the bestway to get the information out.
So, between that and then doingnotions office hours every week,
I basically had 2 differentsources of content happening
every week for about 3 to 4months. And so if you look at my
YouTube now, you'll see videoslike maybe once every month or
(05:14):
so. And so now I don't have thesame cadence and the same output
that I used to have. But in thebeginning, I think it really,
really mattered because it didfeel like, oh, Marie's
everywhere, and they justassociated me with Notion.
So, right at the beginning whenI was doing that, I think is
kind of when it mattered most.And then in some ways it sort of
bought me some credibility andthen I was able to kind of take
(05:35):
my foot off the gas a littlebit.
Susan (05:37):
So that's super interesting. And you when you
were embarking video every week.That's my that's my commitment
to myself, my commitment to thisproject, and I'm gonna do the
video and the office hours. Whatwas your biggest I guess, what
(05:59):
were your biggest challengesactually doing that? You know,
it's one thing to say, I'm gonnabe consistent.
I'm gonna do this. And then, youknow, like, a week goes by, 2
weeks go by, and you do it, andthen, like, something comes up
the 3rd week, and you're like,no. Maybe I won't.
Marie (06:17):
Yeah. And I definitely feel that now. And I'm I've
shared this before. Like, we canchat a little bit about the ADHD
side of things where I can gothrough wild bursts of intense
focus that can last for days,weeks, sometimes months at a
time. And I sort of look back atthat time in my life and I go,
how on earth did I pull thatoff?
(06:37):
Because that is bananas. And Ithink part of it was that it was
sort of the only thing I hadgoing on. I knew I wanted to
make a Notion course, probablyJuly, August of 20 was it 2018
maybe? And did my first webinarabout Notion in that August. And
a few months later was when Ilaunched the pilot of my course.
(06:59):
So I kind of knew if I was gonnasell a course about notion, I
was, I needed to to build thatcredibility and get that lift.
So I think there's sort ofexternal motivating factors
where I've I've promised peopleI'm gonna do this thing. They're
depending on me. People areasking for it. Ah, there's an
opportunity here.
So I think I'm I'm probably verydriven by that sort of, I don't
know, people pleasing or, youknow, external expectations.
(07:21):
That's a big part of it for me.I kinda know that about myself.
If I, if I make a publicpromise, I'm much more likely to
follow through on it. So therewas, there was that.
And again, just week week, everytime I was releasing a video,
people were blown away. Theywere commenting. There was just
so much engagement. It felt wayeasier. I had something to talk
about and I was actually reallyexcited.
You know, when you're reallypassionate about something, it
(07:43):
it's obviously a lot easier. Soin the beginning, I don't think
it felt like a chore. It wassort of like, oh, okay. Like
another video. Oh, I've beenmeaning share this.
And in, in some ways it was mesharing answers to things that
people were already asking mefor all the time. So I kind of
had this endless stream of, of,you know, video ideas and that
sort of thing. So that, thatkinda kept me going for quite
(08:03):
some time. And then I think atsome point it sort of peers out
and you're like, whew. Okay.
Now I gotta focus on coursecontent. Right? So now if people
are paying for this thing, Iwanna make sure that I have
enough behind the paywall, youknow, that feels valuable and
people aren't like, wait, can'tI just, you know, look at all
your YouTube videos. And sofinding that balance, I think
was very difficult because, youknow, creating content is, is no
(08:24):
joke, right? That's still, ittakes a lot of, time, energy,
and attention.
And so dividing that between mypaid program and, and YouTube,
it sort of meant I needed toshift gears a little bit and
didn't need to be so heavy onall of the free public content
and needed to focus more on thecourse. So that's, that's a
little bit of that that journey,sort of consistent, really heavy
(08:45):
for a short focus burst, andthen sort of, whew. Okay. Now I
need to to focus over here.
Susan (08:51):
And how this is not necessarily related to
consistency, but how did youbreak down what goes public,
what goes in the course, and howdo you balance creating content
for I mean, it's essentially 2channels that are talking about
very similar things and verysimilar content. How did how do
(09:14):
you think about dividing the 2and balancing both the
workloads?
Marie (09:18):
I think this is something I'm probably still working on. I
haven't figured out necessarilythe answer to that, but I can I
can share some of theobservations in that? I think in
a in YouTube, people's attentionspan is so, so, so short, and
you have to get right to thepoint and get really specific.
And I think in some ways thatwas really tricky because people
(09:42):
would be like, get to the point,you know, but then other people
would be like, wait, slow down.You didn't go into X, Y, Z.
And I was like, oh, wow. It wasreally interesting to kind of
try to figure out how muchinformation to give, how fast to
go again. People's attentionspan is very different when
they're paying for a course,they're sort of invested in a
way and they're willing to spenda little bit more time. And so
(10:03):
in some ways, the YouTube is abit more, teasing the
possibilities while showcasingsomething really specific, like
tutorial style. Hey.
Here's how to do this one reallysimple thing in notion. Whereas
the course is, is much moreimmersive. It's a longer, a
longer term experience, if youwill. It's touching upon all of
(10:24):
the habit creation and personalgrowth and other parts that
happen as a result ofintegrating notion into
different parts of your life inbusiness. So it's more
immersive.
A a little deeper, we get a lotmore into the personal
development and growth side ofthings, if that makes sense.
Susan (10:40):
Yeah. Totally. And do you so now that you have both
channels, so at the beginning,you did really focus on YouTube,
and then you really focused oncourse content. And now they're
both, as far as I hear, prettywell established.
Marie (11:00):
Mhmm.
Susan (11:01):
How do you balance creating content now that
there's 2 channels and they'remostly there?
Marie (11:09):
Oh, it's so hard. It's really hard to keep up with with
YouTube now because my myexcitement and my focus, it's
like I really wanna serve thepeople who have already
committed and and paid for thecourse and are immersed in that
and are part of the community.So what I like to do is make
sure that if I'm sort of teasingout a concept, I like to test
(11:29):
that out with the communityfirst. So they always kinda get
first access to things I'mthinking about and, you know,
hey, I'm experimenting with thisnew way of doing something in
Notion. Check it out.
And so there's sort of like thisinner inner circle, and I get to
co create that with people inthe course. And then I can say,
oh, great. Now that we figuredout a way to do this, I can show
one small part of that onYouTube. But I'm I'm less I
(11:51):
don't say less worried now aboutYouTube, but it's sort of if I
can get one video out a month,I'm happy. Obviously, more would
be ideal.
Like, if I could be shipping aweekly video, that would be
awesome. But in some ways, Ifeel like the traction that I've
built up and the sort of SEOjuice and reputation and all
that, a lot of those videos thatare still, you know, 2 years
old. And I know you know thisfrom your podcast too. Right?
(12:13):
It's like the 2 year old videosthat you're like, what?
I did that one thing, and nowsuddenly that's how everybody
knows me. And then they watchthat video and they purchase the
course. So I still have videoslike that that have been around
forever that still are reallyhighly converting. And so in
some ways, as long as you havethat pillar content out there,
that becomes an engine that cankinda keep serving you over and
over again. So, you know, again,I still haven't figured out all
(12:36):
the answers.
I would love to be able to shipa video, at a more weekly
cadence, and maybe part of thatis going even smaller, like
really, really tiny tips andtricks and that sort of thing
because video editing takestime. You know, all all of that
stuff takes time. So I'm stillfiguring out kinda how to
balance that, but I'm also inthe midst of a curriculum
redesign right now. So my focusis just a 100% on how can I make
(12:59):
the paid program the most epicversion of this there can
possibly be? And so I'll work insome ways, you know, you put
marketing on hold a little bit.
It's, the content creation foryour paid programs becomes
priority. So it it's always a abalancing act. Right? When
sometimes you're you're inlaunch mode, other times you're
in ideation mode, creation mode,kinda wavering between the 2. So
(13:20):
it's it's like a teeter totter.
There's always a bit of give andtake.
Susan (13:24):
Yeah. I've noticed similar since my course
launched. It was very much Ifocus on the content creation,
then you focus on the marketing,then you go back and do
curriculum updates and then
Marie (13:34):
back on the marketing side. So, yeah,
Susan (13:34):
I I feel that I'm so, yeah, I I feel
Marie (13:39):
that. You know the deal.
Susan (13:41):
Well and, you know, as soon as I finish something, I'm
like, oh oh oh, I could makethis better. I'll have to be
like, nope. Just put it on thelist for next time. It's okay.
Marie (13:49):
Good enough for now. You know? Yeah.
Susan (13:50):
You don't have to fix it right now.
Marie (13:52):
It's okay. Exactly.
Susan (13:54):
So were there any downsides
Marie (14:11):
was was doubling down on it. I sort of saw it as an
experiment, a chapter. I'm like,let's see what happens. Because
I've been a generalist for so,so long. Like I just have
handled so many different partsof a project and I didn't really
have a singular positioning orfocus.
And so doubling down on Notionwas kind of the first time I
(14:34):
thought, what if, what if I wereto get known for this really one
specific thing? So it was atotal experiment, and the growth
was explosive. And I was like,well, feed a starving crowd.
Right? It's it, it makes thingsso much easier when people know
how to find you because what youdo is so specific.
So I would say it was, a reallysmart move for me, to, to do
(14:56):
that doubling down and justbeing really consistent for a
very, very focused burst. Ican't, I can't say I can think
of any downsides other than it,it does take up a lot of your
time. Of course, it's a, it's acommitment. And, but it was
definitely worth it. I'd say.
Susan (15:12):
I'm curious how you prioritized making that time. So
in order to be consistent, inorder to be really hyper focused
on something, you have tobalance other things.
Marie (15:24):
Mhmm. And
Susan (15:25):
at this point, you had a software. You had your
consulting. You had other stuffgoing on. How did you think
through, you know, what are yougonna give up? What are you
gonna prioritize?
How are you gonna balance all ofthese things?
Marie (15:40):
Yeah. I mean, as you said, you you do have to make
sacrifices, and you have to askyourself, like, what do you want
in the long term? And I knewthat I wanted to develop a
course about Notion. I've madecourses before, and I know
they're they're not a smallthing. Even a small course.
It takes a lot out of you,right? To not just create the
content, but to market it, totalk about it. There's just a
lot of moving parts with anonline course. So a few things.
(16:01):
I think one was hiring my,assistant executive assistant,
who is now my director of ops.
So she's become my first fulltime employee. And so I brought
her on shortly before the courselaunched as a in a sort of light
capacity, kinda started todelegate a few tasks. And then I
started letting go of clients. Iactually started saying, well,
(16:24):
what if the only work that I didfor the next 6, 12 months was
only notion related consulting.So I pretty much let go of
almost everyone that wasn't areally, really well established
long term client, and and juststarted kind of referring out
and saying, hey, you know, I'mmy business is the business
focus is changing a bit, and Iwon't be able to serve you in
(16:47):
the same way.
Here's someone that might beable to help you. And I just
heard to refer out old clients,saying ruthless, you know, being
ruthless about saying no toanything that was not aligned
with that for that short amountof time. And, around the same
time too, my husband got a fulltime job. So we actually took a
step back from the software too,and and he kind of went off and
(17:07):
did his own thing. So we knewthat we had really stable
income.
I knew that I could, kind of getaway with letting go of some of
those client projects. And Iknew I had a little bit of
runway to work with, and Ithought I'm just gonna make the
most out of this runway. Soyeah. Ruthless prioritization.
Really asking yourself what itis that you want long term.
And I I really, really wanted tocreate this course and do a
(17:29):
really great job of it. So itwas, it was definitely the
majority of my focus for thosemonths. And I was just so
excited about it. I think, thebeginning of projects is very,
very exciting and motivating forme. So I had no problem just
like, throwing myself in thereentirely.
Susan (17:44):
So I am curious because I am the same way. So I love the
beginning of projects. I willthrow myself wholeheartedly in.
And somewhere around the middleand especially, like, the last
(18:04):
start of the to the finish.Like, the start of the the
finish in the middle are reallydifficult.
How how did that play out foryou? And what what did you do?
Marie (18:17):
Yes. This is it's very relatable. It's so easy to
start. It's so easy to, putteralong, and it's that final it's
like the, what, last 20% of aproject that takes 80% of the
time. Right?
It's, limping to the finishline. So, again, part of it is
hiring a little bit of that helpand that accountability. I do
feel like the course for me, ittook a long time for it to feel
(18:41):
complete. So I launched it inbeta. It was a pilot program.
Everyone that that initiallyjoined the course was sort of a
cocreator. And, you know,through their questions in the
live calls, I would be revampingthe material, and it just sort
of felt like I was revamping thematerial all the time. And it
sort of felt like, oh my gosh.Does this is this project, you
know, gonna never end? So I'dsay it took a good 6 months
(19:03):
between starting the course andactually feeling like, okay, I
can call this kind of complete.
And then I'd say it still tookmany, many months after that.
And just, the more people thatwent through the course and the
more I would see the gaps and Iwould see the potential. And I
was like, okay. A part of me waslike, well, what if what if
actually it's okay that thiscourse doesn't really complete?
(19:26):
And that might sound kind ofinsane, but I was like, if one
of my strengths is the iterationand the improvement process, and
I do always kind of see thoseopportunities and I wanna keep
making it better.
What if that's just part of theway the course grows? How could
I put the foundational elementsin place and kinda lock that
down and be like, that'scomplete. But then the rest of
the course could be more of aresource library that could grow
(19:48):
over time, and I can when I'mfeeling energetic and when I
feel like there there's anopportunity, I can go and
rerecord those videos. So insome ways, I kinda gave myself
permission to be like, it'sokay. You can keep working on
this thing.
It's gonna keep getting betterover time, but make sure at
least the beginning fundamentalsare locked down and and
complete. But having myassistant, Georgia, to kind of,
(20:10):
Amory, we're, like, missing avideo here, or this needs to be
complete and kinda, you know,get on my back a little bit
about that was was very helpful.
Susan (20:19):
Yep. Maybe maybe I need a Georgia.
Marie (20:21):
Everyone needs a a Georgia. But I will say that is
definitely something I I stillstruggle with for sure is is
it's always the finish of aproject that is really, really
difficult. So, I I feel like Ihave to find ways to to trick
myself and motivate myself intojust getting it done.
Susan (20:36):
Yeah. I I also struggle with the finish. I am great with
designing the thing. I'm greatwith the ideation. That part is,
like, super easy.
Like, it just flows. And then,yeah, towards the end,
Marie (20:49):
you're just Gotta hire hire the finishers. Right? Hire
the people who know how to helpyou.
Susan (20:54):
Yeah. I still gotta do that. I don't not in the mood
for that. Let's just push thatoff. Mhmm.
So you recently discovered thatyou have ADHD. How has that
changed how you approachconsistency, how you think about
consistency? Has it has itexplained or changed the way you
(21:15):
thought about anything?
Marie (21:17):
Oh, man. It's yeah. Part of me was like, how did I not
see this sooner? Like, it seemsso obvious in hindsight, but in
in some ways, I feel like even Imaybe contributed to some of the
stigma because I was like, oh,come on. That's all of us.
We all have the it was like Iresonated so hard with
everything, all of the memes andall of the hilarious jokes and
(21:37):
descriptions. And I was like,yeah. Yeah. But come on. Like,
that's all of us.
And at some point I was like,wait a second. Maybe maybe it
resonates so hard because that'sme. Like, and it really, it
really shook me. I was, I wasquite surprised in a way,
because my sister has ADHD too,and she is, you know, what I
would call maybe the posterchild of what you think of when
(21:57):
you think of ADHD, of that sortof completely hyperactive,
extreme extroversion, inabilityto kinda, motivate yourself to
follow through. And I know shehas really struggled over the
years with school and, you know,I was I I fast tracked through
through high school and, youknow, did university and stuff.
So I thought, well, there's noway. Like, obviously I've been,
like, self directed and runningmy own business and all this
(22:19):
stuff. But the more I I learnedabout it and the more I
uncovered, I started to be like,oh my gosh, that explains so
much. And it explains some ofthe exhaustion, I think, around
maybe even hiding some of thoseparts that we're really not, not
proud of, or, you know, thatsometimes it takes, it takes a
client being like, Hey, justchecking in before I'm like, oh
(22:39):
right. Oh my gosh.
I should follow-up with thatclient. Right. There were, there
were things that I, I think Ihave crafted systems around to
help me cope. And, you know,crafted systems around to help
me cope. And, you know,sometimes people are like, they
are maybe in awe sometimes atsome of the systems and, oh, I
wish I was this organized.
I'm like, you don't understand.If I was not this organized,
this cart would go off therails. Like, it's pure chaos.
(23:02):
Like, it really is, you know,chaos is kind of my my default
state. And so I think I've hadto almost I found these ways of
tricking my brain, but I didn'trealize that in a way it was, it
was coping with the way that mybrain works and even being self
employed.
Like I didn't really realizeI've I've kind of joked about
being unemployable and, youknow, get getting to work on
(23:23):
time has been a problem myentire life. Like, I don't know
if I've ever made it to work ontime and and that's, it's kind
of an embarrassing thing tothink about. Right? Or it's, I'm
not proud of that, but gettingup in the morning and funny
enough, I was watching a videoabout, you know, what is ADHD
and, and how does it often getkind of missed in women? And,
and that was actually the firstthing that kind of triggered it
(23:45):
was extreme difficulty gettingup in the morning.
And I was like, what? Okay. Likethis has been an issue. I used
to have 3 alarm clocks in my, inmy bedroom when I was in high
school and I would still be,like, running down the street,
like, trying to make the bus ontime. And it I was it was chaos.
And so I was like, is thatthat's a symptom? And I started
doing a little bit of researchand just all sorts of funny
(24:07):
little quirks that I thoughtwere quirks. And I was like, oh,
wow. It would explain a lot ofthese behaviors. It would
explain, even in calls.
Often when I'm in a call withsomeone and my brain is going
like a 1000000 miles an hour andI'm like interrupting thoughts
with other thoughts. And, sothese things that I just kind of
thought were quirks or thingsthat I was maybe embarrassed
about, I thought, oh, there'sthere might actually be a
(24:30):
reason, and my brain might mightactually work a different way.
And it I think it's what has ledme to be really great at
strategic work and ideation and,all this, you know, creative
projects and why I can havethese really, really intense
hyperfocus bursts of energy, butfollowed by, well, I just
alright. Well, Marie doesn'twanna do that, so she's not
(24:51):
gonna do that. House, you know,even my house being in a state
of complete disarray, but thenmy my business is always humming
along.
Right? It's like, how can I runa a successful business and,
work with these these big nameclients and stuff, but but my
house is in a in complete chaos?So it's been an interesting
process to uncover what are thethings about this that have
(25:14):
actually helped me succeed andwhere are the parts that I've
struggled with and maybe have,have hidden even from myself or
maybe that I denied or, or wasembarrassed about, or, or maybe,
spent a lot of energy masking.And it was very permission
giving to go, oh, what if that'sjust how my brain works? And now
I can find ways to work with itand stop judging myself so
(25:37):
harshly about that stuff.
So it was quite a, a process ofhighs and lows and compassion
for myself. And then also justbeing like, how the f did I miss
this? Like, 37, 38. I'm like,how how on earth did I miss this
information? So
Susan (25:53):
I think that's really interesting, and I love the idea
of just accepting that that ishow your brain works and then
using systems, using tools towork with your brain instead of
trying to force your brain intosomebody else's box of how they
think things are supposed towork or even, like, your own
(26:15):
idea of how things are supposedto work. Can you talk a little
bit about some of the tools orsystems that you've put in place
that have made a significantdifference to you being able to
run a successful business andbe, seemingly from the outside,
very organized. It may not bethat way behind the scenes.
(26:37):
That's fine. But from theoutside, it looks very organized
and lovely.
Marie (26:41):
Yeah. I mean, there there is lots of pieces that are
organized, and I think there'salso, you know, parts that might
feel a bit chaotic. And again,part of that has been having a
team that can fill some of thosegaps and and even like a team
that understands how I work andand can be supportive in that
way. You know, I often feel verychaotic when I'm when I'm
talking or or let's say I'm I'min a strategy session with with
(27:03):
team members, and I can see, youknow, Georgia is, like, very
quiet and taking notes, and I'mjust doing my thing and brain
dumping and being chaotic. Andthen toward the end, she can be
like, so as next steps, what I'mseeing is a, b, and c.
And I'm like, yes. That'sbrilliant. And and just someone
who can kind of translate alittle bit of that creative
energy into really practicalnext steps has been incredible.
(27:24):
So, you know, again, having anassistant whose brain works very
different than mine, much morelinear, logical, maybe slower
and, and sort of, I wanna saymore intentional, but it's just,
it's a little bit of a differentenergy. That's been huge.
Time blocking huge. Like it'slike I have to force myself into
these little containers tocontain the chaos. And so,
(27:47):
theming my days, time blocking,giving myself those containers
wherever possible, embracing thehyperfocus while also even my
husband and I like we'll getinto those wild bursts of focus
where it's like, I'm in thezone. Don't bother me. Please
make me dinner.
You know, making sure you've gotyour, your support network in
place is, is huge. And, andjust, I mean, another, another
(28:10):
thing I'll add is I work onweekends and I actually love
working on weekends because itis quiet. Nobody is bothering
me. I can get a burst of workdone and then I'm like, go out
and play in the garden and thencome back and do some more work.
And, and I think I used to carrya lot of, shame and judgment
around that of like, oh,recovering workaholic and this
(28:30):
sort of thing.
And, and so actually the ADHDthing helped me understand, oh,
my brain is just never, it justnever stops. Like I'm just
always thinking of likepossibilities and connections
are forming and I just get sofired up. And for me, it's
actually rejuvenating and it'sexciting to be taking a course
on the on the weekend or,working on a YouTube video. And
(28:51):
so I, I kind of gave myself abit of permission to say, work
how you best work. And if younotice that you're, you're kind
of in the zone of feeling reallyinspired, harness that, listen
to it, take advantage of it.
And so sometimes I'll have tointerrupt my husband and be
like, hold on. Like, I'm in thezone. You know, I'm I'm feeling
really creative right now. Canwe table this discussion?
Because I just I need to to workon this thing.
I need to get writing done,whatever it is. So part of it is
(29:14):
just listening to my brain,listening to my body, knowing
what I need and forgetting someof those shoulds. And I just, I
don't work in a 9 to 5environment or or schedule, and
that's okay. And my team knowsthat. And so, again, just
finding ways to work with youryour Another one is, you know,
(29:42):
how you hear people say, youknow, eat the frog and do the
most difficult thing in themorning, right?
And you hear these sorts ofproductivity, best practices and
advice, and, and then you feelashamed because you're like,
well, why, why does this not
Susan (29:55):
work for
Marie (29:56):
me? And that difficulty getting up in the morning, it
takes my brain at least 2 hoursto actually wake up and do
anything productive. Sorealizing nothing effective is
gonna happen before 10:11 am,for sure. So I book meetings in
the mornings because, my brainis still waking up, but in terms
of writing or creative work oranything like that, that has to
(30:18):
happen like 3, 4 pm. And, youknow, you can, you can say like,
oh, the early bird gets theworm, but I'm sorry.
My brain is not active at thattime. And so honestly, a lot of
it's just been letting go of alot of the traditional
productivity advice and asking,what do I know is true Like I
(30:42):
track my daily effectiveness,happiness, feelings when I'm in
flow. I've been tracking my flowfor years, and so I can actually
look back at the data from myjournal and say, oh, wow.
Wednesdays are actually the mosteffective day of the week, and
I'm most in flow. That's reallyinteresting.
And I can use that data to helpme make better decisions about
(31:02):
my day. So where some people arelike, oh, wow, you're so
organized. I'm like, you don'tunderstand. I have to be because
otherwise it's chaos.
Susan (31:10):
Yeah. That's so interesting. And I love the idea
of just tracking your data andyour energy and data to
schedule. And I did somethingvery similar with I'm completely
(31:30):
the opposite of you. So I haveto if I don't write it first
thing in the morning, it ain'thappening that day.
Like, I have to do I have to doadmin and email stuff in the
afternoon because if I get intoit and I haven't done the thing
that I am supposed to like, thething that requires focus, like,
if I have to write an intro fora podcast or whatever that has
to happen first thing or isjust, like, my brain is mush by,
(31:52):
like, 2 o'clock in theafternoon. But it took me a
really long time of, like,tracking to figure out, like,
okay. Cool. If it doesn't happenbefore lunch, it ain't
happening. So how can I schedulemy days and schedule plan out
how my work works so that I canwork the best way for me and how
(32:14):
my energy levels and my brainworks?
And I love that you've donesomething similar and that it is
completely the opposite.
Marie (32:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's you can read all the
productivity advice, but at theend of the day, nobody knows
your circumstances, your brain,your energy better than than you
do. So I I like to pay attentionto that and be like, what are
the trends?
What are some things I can seethat work? Where do I notice
resistance? And how can Ibasically design resistance out
of my schedule or or at least tominimize it as much as possible
(32:42):
knowing I might have maybe less,I don't know, motivation or
willpower or whatever to workwith? And so how do I work with
that?
Susan (32:51):
Yes. I love this idea of paying attention to where
there's resistance and trying tounderstand why there's
resistance. You know? Is itsomething because, I don't feel
like I know how to do this task?I don't it's just something I
don't wanna do.
I'm never gonna wanna do it.Find somebody you have somebody
on your team who does wanna dothose things and hand them off
(33:11):
and being able to really, lookat how you work as an experiment
that, at least for me, is kindof constantly evolving. You
know, I'll try something and go,that didn't work. So, like, I
guess 2019, I tried doing, like,I would schedule a break week.
Like, so once a month, there wasa break week where I didn't have
(33:31):
any meetings.
I didn't have anything. Like, Iwas trying to really focus on
recovery for burnout. So I waslike, I need a lot of like, I
need time off. And the first,like, 2 or 3 times, I would go
around my own boundaries andschedule stuff, and I would get
to my break week and I'd belike, I don't I have to work the
whole week. How did that happen?
Marie (33:51):
Oh, I've definitely been there. Like,
Susan (33:54):
that wasn't supposed to happen. How did that happen? And
then going back and realizingthat it was me. Like, I was the
one that was doing that, where Iwas like, oh, you know, this is
somebody that I like talking to.We'll just schedule a meeting.
It'll
Marie (34:04):
be fun. Special exceptions. Mhmm.
Susan (34:06):
Like, I special exceptions my way out of a break
week, and it took me probably 3or 4 months before I was like,
oh, okay. Cool. My boundariesare my boundaries. It's totally
okay if they if I schedule themfor the next week. There's
plenty of time.
It's not urgent. But it did. Ittook me like it probably took me
4 months before I actually,like, figured out what was going
(34:28):
on. And it was just anexperiment of, does this work?
Nope.
That doesn't work. Why doesn'tthat work? Okay. Let's try
something else.
Marie (34:36):
I love that you said, yeah, it took you 3 to 4 months,
and I'm laughing becauseliterally last week, I had 7 or
8 calls, and it was meant to bemy week off. And I was like, how
did this happen? How did thishappen? Yeah.
Susan (34:48):
Whoops. Yeah. Oh, like and so I've been doing that for
a year and I still probablylike, 1 or 2 meetings that week
still usually Sneak in.Something that I'm, like, super
excited about, so I don't wannawait. Totally.
Marie (35:06):
I know. Yeah. It's hard. It's like I'm excited about
everything. Like, oh, god.
How do I how do I contain this?
Susan (35:12):
I am curious. So you mentioned, about the hyperfocus,
and I'm wondering if after supersuper hyper focused on something
and I can go for a couple ofweeks probably, and then I'll
get to a point where I'm just,like, I it's it's used up. I
(35:34):
used everything up. I don't knowwhat to do. How do you deal with
those?
Do you plan for them? Becausethey can be kind of
unpredictable. You never quiteknow when your energy is just
gonna be like, and we're done.
Marie (35:44):
100%. It's like so it's so relatable because, like I
said, with the the beginning ofthe YouTube stuff, it felt like
months when I look back, I'mlike, wow. From September to
December, that was a wild burstof focused. Like, how the heck
did I do that and how do Ichannel that? And sometimes I'm
like, does every year just kindaget like 3, 4 months where it's
like go time?
(36:05):
And I'm I'm trying to noticethose patterns at a bigger
level. But like you said, youdon't know sometimes. Is this
just like a week of inspiredcreativity? Is it is it gonna
happen for months? And you oftendon't really know, and it can be
hard to hard to predict.
So I don't necessarily, youknow, know what the answer is,
but but I am just kindawatching, paying attention,
noticing. And and like you said,knowing that often, if I do have
(36:26):
a week of intense, intensehyperfocus, I am gonna be more
gentle on myself the followingweek because I do definitely
have those crashes where youkinda feel useless. And I think
the hardest part is that selfcompassion and not beating
myself up the next week whereit's like, oh, I feel like I
should be doing this or shouldbe doing that. I'm like, calm
down. You were really, really,you know, did superhuman tasks
(36:50):
the last week and cramming,like, 3 weeks worth of work into
1 week.
You can calm down and and kindatake this week a little bit
chill. But it is very difficult,difficult not to kind of beat
yourself up a little bit. So I'mlearning I'm trying to, you
know, be a little bit morecompassionate with myself. I'm
curious if those
Susan (37:08):
either the lows or the productivity, how how do you
find that that works withhaving, like, a a course, a
community where there is sort ofan expectation that somebody's
gonna show up regularly, like,that there will be content of
some sort at some point, andthat may or may not line up with
(37:30):
you feeling like working.
Marie (37:32):
I think what's what's cool, at least what I I really
appreciate about the format ofthe course is it's fairly set it
and forget it. So in some ways,as long as I'm doing the bare
minimum that week, which wouldbe, you know, logging into
circle and checking if there'sany messages. And and even then
there's lots of other peoplethat are answering questions in
the forum. It's not just me. Sothat's that's one piece is, you
(37:54):
know, log in.
At least say hello to any newpeople that have joined.
Check-in if there's anythingthat needs me. So, like, that
feels pretty shallow work. Like,it's pretty easy to do. And then
I do live office hours onceevery 2 weeks.
So, and I find those incrediblyenergizing. Like, I'm usually
(38:19):
difficult because and, again,this this comes back to what
gives you energy, and how do youbest show up? And I know I am
actually at my best when it'sunscripted and it's unplanned.
So in office hours, it is soeasy because I'm like, oh, I get
to connect with people, answertheir questions, problem solve,
troubleshoot, like, woo hoo.Like, that just gets my brain
(38:40):
fired up, and it's so easy.
So that's actually likely togive me energy on an off week,
but planning curriculum andscripting a video, anything that
requires that preplanning and,like, planning out what I'm
gonna say and making sure thatI'm covering all the key points,
like, that feels like a wholedifferent energy, and it takes a
lot out of me. And that'sanother reason why I have
(39:02):
assistance with that. So I hireda learning advocate. I'm working
with a curriculum developer. Sopeople who can give me the
structure so that I know whatvideos to make, and I can be a
little bit more impulsive.
But that's, that's somethingthat I've learned about myself
is, you know, even adding eventslike hot seats where someone can
pre submit, Hey, I'm trying tosolve this one thing in my
(39:22):
workspace. How would I approachthis? And then we hop on live,
and it's basically like a live 1hour coaching session that other
people can drop in on and watchif they want to. But being on
the spot, weirdly enough, likeyears ago, I would never have
thought this would be the case,but being on the spot and being
kind of impulsive and at theready is actually so easy and so
energizing. So I don't actuallyfeel like even if I had a week
(39:43):
where I felt kind of drained,that part of, of sort of my
responsibilities
Susan (39:57):
things that energize you, that the, like, the minimum
requirements of keeping whatyou're doing alive are things
that bring you energy, thingsthat are easy. Because I think,
so often, we feel like thingsthat are easy are less valuable.
That's true. Yeah. Like, thisweird switch in our brain.
Then we're like, oh, this issomething that is super easy for
(40:18):
me. So people might not find itvaluable when, in fact, those
are the things that peopleusually find most valuable or
the things that are easy foryou. But sometimes that feels
not not okay.
Marie (40:30):
Well, Well, I I think that's it's become kind of baked
into the values with the teamtoo. And, again, I think a lot
of this is the result of ADHD,but I didn't realize it's it is
very, very difficult for me tosummon up the wherewithal if I
am not super, super stoked aboutthe thing, the task that I need
to do. And so for everyone onthe team, I wanna make sure is
(40:50):
everybody doing what they are sofreaking excited about that they
can't believe they get paid todo that. That is my desire for
everybody on the team, thatthey're doing the stuff that is
fun, that nobody feels likethey're sort of, dragging their
feet, like, oh, I have to dothis, because that's kinda how I
operate. And so in many ways, II think it's an exciting place
for for people to work toobecause they're like, woah.
(41:10):
Like, I get paid to do this.This is so fun. And that's the
vibe that I want everybody to besuper aligned with your talents,
super aligned with yourstrengths. I don't know if
you've if you've done, like, youknow, those personality tests.
We've done principles you is areally fun one.
Myers Briggs, Enneagram. Sowe've gotten different team
members to kind of fill outthose things, strengths finder.
And we've mapped them outtogether too, so you can sort of
(41:32):
see, oh, wow. We can see who arethe detailed and reliable folks
and who are the creativeconceptual folks. And,
Susan (41:37):
Oh, I love that.
Marie (41:38):
It's been really fun. Like, I've been told I have an
uncanny ability to, kind ofbring people in based on an
intuitive sense of of kind ofwhere their skill set fits in.
So that's been reallyinteresting to just notice. Oh,
wow. We we kinda cover, like, areally interesting range of
skills.
And then even something assimple as, like, I I don't think
(42:00):
I'm necessarily the most skilledinstructor, but I I think I have
a knack for some of the morelike coaching or or maybe more
facilitation. But then we haveother people that are, they're
really strong on instruction andthat sort of thing. So how can
we make sure that we designevents so that the instructors
get to instruct and the coachesget to coach? And what does that
look like and how do we kinda,you know, fill the calendar with
(42:22):
these different types of eventsthat draw people in in different
ways? And and that's been reallyfun.
Susan (42:27):
I love that. So as we wrap up, is there anything you
think we should talk about ortouch on that we haven't yet?
Marie (42:34):
You know, I think we we, I think we judge ourselves
really harshly, and especiallywhen life happens, we sort of
think, we need to be everywhereall the time. And, you know, in
some ways, I'm I'm consistentabout showing up. It just looks
very different from season toseason or week to week or month
to month. Sometimes I'll spend amonth where I'll actually get a
(42:54):
newsletter out every week for 1month and then not for another
month. But I'm also on Twitterreally actively.
So in, in some ways, I'mconsistently always online. It's
just not always with the sameformats all the time. And so, it
hasn't stopped me from beingable to grow a really successful
business. And so I would justkind of encourage I do this one
(43:17):
thing all the time every week.It can look a little bit
different.
And I do this one thing all thetime every week. It can look a
little bit different. And so Ithink giving ourself permission
to approach things in seasonsand Awesome.
Susan (43:38):
So where can up on.
Marie (43:39):
Awesome.
Susan (43:40):
So where can our listeners find you if they wanna
connect or learn more about whatyou do?
Marie (43:44):
Yeah. You can find me online, mariepoulan.com. And if
you're curious on the Notionside of things, notion
mastery.com, and pretty activeon Twitter or Instagram. You can
usually find me at my handle atmariepoulin.
Susan (43:57):
Sometimes the challenges to consistency come from self
sabotage, things like gettingdistracted by shiny objects or
getting bored or impostersyndrome rearing its ugly head
right at the point where you'regetting ready to launch the
thing. But especially for folkswho are neurodivergent or
dealing with chronic healthissues or disabilities,
(44:19):
consistency comes withadditional challenges that
require you to figure out how tomanage unpredictable energy
levels or how to cope withexecutive function issues.
Regardless of your specificchallenges with consistency, the
key to becoming more consistentis figuring out what you
struggle with and thenexperimenting to figure out what
(44:39):
works for you. For Marie, shetracked her energy and focused
and figured out that Wednesdaysare really productive for her.
And that she had to work on hardthings in the afternoon or
whenever the inspiration struck,even if that happened to be a
weekend.
For me, I realized that I neededreally big stretches of break
(44:59):
time and then I needed to workon hard things in the morning.
We both came to those systems bytrying new things, seeing what
worked and what didn't, and thenmodifying as we went. So does
time blocking help you or do youfeel constrained or trapped by
it? Do you work best in themorning or in the evening? Are
there certain days of the weekor weeks of the month where you
(45:22):
just don't have the energy towork?
A lot of figuring out what worksfor you is just trying to notice
and collect some data that youcan use to try new techniques
and new tools. Ashley Gartlandrealized she needed more breaks,
so she started planning her workto allow her to take 1 week off
per month. Tara McMullen noticedthat she gets a big energy slump
(45:44):
in the fall when the timechanges, so she plans a few
weeks off from work at thatpoint in time. Brittney Berger
created an energy tracker tohelp her notice when she has the
energy to work or when she hasbig slumps so that she could
plan her work for when she hasthe most chance of having the
energy to do the work. Thatenergy tracker is fantastic, by
(46:05):
the way, and I've included alink to it in the show notes.
Each one of these folks sharedtheir with me and these were
ones that kind of soundedhelpful for me. I experimented
with and eventually haveimplemented all of these. I'm
continually experimenting withand creating systems to support
me and to help me be moreconsistent. And a lot of that
(46:26):
just comes from trying thingsand noticing what's working and
what doesn't. It's all aboutfiguring out what works and
doesn't work for you.
If you liked this episode, I'dreally appreciate it if you
shared with someone you thinkwould enjoy it and would benefit
from it. Break the Ceiling isproduced by Yellow House Media.
Our executive producer is SeanMcMullen. Our production
(46:47):
coordinator is Lou Blazer.
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