IT Recruiting with Harry Chen

In this episode, we sit down with Harry Chen, Director of Staffing at Arraya Solutions. We chat about what you can do to stand out, some resume tips, some trends in the industry, and a bunch more! 

Connect with Harry on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/harrycchen/

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Episode Transcript

Harry (00:01):
Top

Pat (00:01):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to this week'sedition of Breaking Down the
Bites.
As usual, I'm your host, pat.
I'm the one driving this bus towherever we wanna land.
Ladies and Jens.
You can find me on Twitter atlayer eight packet.
That is the number eight.
Kyle.
He's back this week.
He's not busy.
He's dedicated.
Once again, he's on Twitter tooat Dan at 2 56.

(00:25):
And also you can find the showon Twitter at Breaking Bites
pod.
Alex is gone for one more week.
Technically he comes back fromhis vacation tomorrow, so we
figure we let him enjoy his lastday of vacation instead of
coming and talking with uscrazy.
So, he'll be back with us nextweek and I'm sure he's got all
kinds of stories and he's readyand rejuvenated to go.

(00:47):
So shout out to him as hefinishes up his much needed and
much deserved vacation.
But, We are still a triotonight, we have a guest.
Kyle and I, we have a guest withus.
Good friend of mine, Mr.
Harry Chen.
Harry, what's up man?
How you doing?

Harry (01:06):
Nothing much, pat.
Thanks for having me on

Pat (01:08):
Anytime, man.
Appreciate it.
I know we've been talking aboutthis for a few weeks kind,
getting schedules all locked inand whatnot, so I figured well,
now's a good time.
And truth be told, we had someaudio issues before we hit
record.
So if I sound a little odd it'sbecause I have, I'm the one
having audio issues.
Everyone else is fine, but thehost is the one that really
looks like an idiot here thisweek.
So if I sound a little weirdI'll try to do my best in

(01:32):
editing to make my sound, myvoice sound nice and shiny as
usual.
And I did have a new mic thisweek as well.
But that is giving me someissues.
So yeah, we'll see.
So I apologize ahead of time,but Kyle, what's up man?
How you doing?
You're back for this you'd begone two weeks now.

Kyle (01:48):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we had Easter,right?

Pat (01:50):
It's true.

Kyle (01:51):
and then yeah.
Woo.
I'm good.
Good.
You know, same old here we are.

Pat (01:56):
you were working on the wife's car this

Kyle (01:58):
Yeah.
I've never done suspension workbefore, but if you hear from me
in a couple days and the wheelsdidn't fall off we did it.

Pat (02:05):
so if you've never worked with suspension before, my first
question is why are you workingon a car?

Kyle (02:10):
I had a buddy helping me.
He was like, we can do that.
We got, I got all the tools Igot.
I'm like, let's do it.
Let's,

Pat (02:17):
All right.

Harry (02:18):
isn't just YouTube video then

Kyle (02:19):
no.

Pat (02:20):
it.

Harry (02:21):
Because that's how I would've done it.

Pat (02:23):
That's funny.
Now actually that reminds me,truth be told I saw this a few
years ago that.
I, it was, I wanna say a fatherand a son, I wanna say or some
sort of relation.
They actually built a brand newhome, literally from the ground
up with just videos that theywatched on YouTube.
Everything from like literally adirt plot to people moving in

(02:47):
furniture and living like day today.
It is, it's the wildest thing.
I was like, man, there is somededication there.
I'd be, there'd be some plumbingor some nonsense, like a wall
would be falling over and allthis shit.
I had never, I could never dothat.
Oh my God, I have troublechanging the, you know, the
paper towel roll here in thehouse, so it's anyway,

Harry (03:06):
Meanwhile, they're living in other car for the

Pat (03:08):
it.
Yeah,

Kyle (03:09):
right?

Pat (03:10):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly

Kyle (03:11):
If I built the whole thing from the ground up, if I heard a
creek, I'd be like, everybodyout.
It's coming down, you know?

Pat (03:17):
it.
Like a gas leak.
Everybody just vanishes.
He's just like, all right, outin the front lawn.
Where's the rendezvous point?
We'll meet you there.
No.
Thanks Harry, for taking thecouple of minutes here to come
and chat.
And I figured you know, sincethis is a show that helps new
folks breaking into theindustry, what a better guest
than a it recruiter to come andhang out.

(03:39):
So, Harry, why don't you give alittle intro to yourself, who
you are, where you're from, andwhat you're doing.
Show the floor is yours, my man.

Harry (03:45):
Cool.
So, like you mentioned name'sHarry Chen.
I've been in the it field nowfor.
Geez, lost track of time, likealmost 20 years.
I actually started in IT.
Degree was in, it was in SQLdevelopment reports.
A lot of really boring stuffthat I couldn't do so quickly
pivoted within a year found myway into recruiting.

(04:08):
Really enjoyed it and kind of,this is where I'm at today.
So, you know, eight, 17 years inrecruiting.
Now I'm a director of ourstaffing practice at Array
Solutions.
We provide, you know, ITsolutions for variety of
mid-enterprise size customersmostly in the Philadelphia area,
a hundred, 150 mile radiusaffiliate.
But so that's kind of what we dofocus with, like I said, all

(04:31):
within the IT space.
Really focus on that you know,staffing consulting project
based staffing, you know,staffing teams and you know,
higher end engineers, et cetera.
So, Supporting in whateverbusiness needs, you know,
customers need.
So that's the skinny of it.

Pat (04:50):
Nice.
That's the 20,000 foot view.
I like it.
I like it.
So I guess my first question,well, I kind of give a little
background to where Harry and Imet Harry actually put me at at
customers bank where I'm at now.
So that's how I met Harry.
And I actually met Harry througha friend Kail.
We share a mutual friend and Iguess you and Kapil go back a
couple years as well.

(05:10):
You guys are boys and.
Uh, he's a, he is a good dudeand he kind of led me to you and
here we are.
That's a full circle moment.

Kyle (05:16):
Nice.

Harry (05:17):
Yeah.
Life is full circle.
Yeah.
I've known KA for about 10 yearsnow.
Worked with him maybe evenlonger than that.
Now I'm thinking about it.
But, you know, probably about 10years worked with him back at my
previous organization and, youknow, so he's in the area and
knows he's an IT recruiter,probably been in the business
longer than I have, but youknow, there's a lot of

Pat (05:35):
yeah.
That can't

Harry (05:36):
People knowing people.
That's what it's all about, Iguess.
Yep.

Pat (05:40):
kind of curious about that.
Like, you know, Kyle and I talkabout this on the show all the
time, like the IT industry, itis very vast, but it's very
small at the same time.
Cuz you, like everybody knowseverybody and you always have a
connection.
It's all, it's almost like oneof those like six degrees of
Kevin Bacon sort of thing.
Like, everybody knows, you know,who is who.

(06:00):
So I don't know I guess I kindof start with, you know, as a
recruiter like what does that,is there a lot of like, and I'll
kind of equate this to a salesthing, is there like a lot of
cold calling that goes on withyou guys?
Like, do you reach out to, like,do you do like LinkedIn searches
and say, Hey, I'm looking for anetwork eye, I'm looking for a
sequel guy.

(06:21):
Like, and then just kind ofmass, I don't wanna say it makes
it sound cheap, but is it like amass, like LinkedIn mail and
say, Hey, I have a spot for you,let me know.

Harry (06:30):
Yep.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, look, it's, recruitingis generally like sales.
I mean, we are, it is, I wouldsay it's definitely a sales
function.
We're definitely there's a lotof cold calling to, I mean, you
know, depending on where you arein your recruiting career,
you're doing more cold callingor less cold calling.
You know, of course, if you knowa lot of folks, you know,
there's probably less of it.
If you're, if you don't knowanyone, then just like anything

(06:53):
else, you're just cold callingaway.
Right.
You know, and then, and sametype of thing, like, I think it
depends on A lot of it's likeexperience, right?
So if you're new to the industryand you're and I'm sure you guys
have experienced this a lot inyour careers, but if you're new
to the industry, you know, youknow the d you don't know the
difference between hardware andsoftware.
So when you're recruiting forsomeone, you're getting calls

(07:13):
for, you're getting calls from arecruiter that doesn't have a
clue what they're actuallyrecruiting for, which I can see
where the frustration comes infrom the candidate side.
So, but then again, thatrecruiter's working so much
harder, right?
They're making, because theyhave to.
10 times more cause than someonelike myself who knows.
Okay, I can read a resume.
Know pretty much what, you know,your forte is or what you're

(07:37):
generally pretty decent at, orwhat at least you say you're
decent at and what you're notdecent at, and kind of where you
focus on and generally have anidea of also like what you wanna
do, right?
Which is a big part of kind ofyour next role and stuff like
that.
So yeah, so I try to keep thosecold calls to a minimum these
days.
But yeah, still cold calling allthe time.
Several cold calls a week.
Now when I say cold calls isprobably a tough term for it

(08:00):
because I would say it's morewarm calls.
You know, cause it's a lot ofthese folks, you know, you have
on your LinkedIn that says like,Hey, I'm searching right, or I'm
currently looking, or yet, or,we have various databases where
people are uploading theirresumes and you know, clearly if
you're uploading your resumewith your phone number and your
email, I wouldn't say that'snecessarily a complete cold
call, but I guess as it'sdefined, it's a cold call,

(08:23):
right?
Cause I don't know you, youdon't know me.
I'm calling you out of the blue.
And so it's defined as a coldcall, but I don't necessarily
know if I would classify it as acold call.
Right.
And then same thing, LinkedIn.
There's you get a, you get aholdof anyone however you can.
LinkedIn messages.
I mean, I'll never forget theone time, you know, this is
probably seven, eight years ago,but I think Capelle got ahold of
somebody through their YouTubechannel.

(08:45):
So, you know, a lot of crazystuff.
But yeah, just however you canget ahold of somebody Is is just
the kind of the way to go.
So yeah, there's a lot of that.
I mean, there's not a ton oflike male.
I, well, I don't, but I knowthere's, I know in the industry
there definitely is where yougot recruiters that are like
blasting out like male merges tolike thousands of people.

(09:08):
I don't really know if thatworks.
And I guess you played numbersgame.
It probably works, but it's notreally my style.
But that's, yeah, I guess thatalso will work.
So, you know, but then again,these days you could do that so
easily between your check GPTsand writing, write, having them
write your email for you andthen mail, merging it.
I mean, that'll take a whole 15minutes these days,

Kyle (09:30):
right?

Harry (09:30):
right?
So,

Pat (09:32):
there's our hook, Kyle.
There's the chat G p t sectionof this episode.
Every episode, the last coupleof months chat, g p t has made
its way here and here it is.
So

Harry (09:41):
I mean, it's like, it's what?
Google on steroids, right?
Everyone says you Googlesomething, it's just Google on
steroids.
I mean, it is, and it's noteven, I mean, steroids isn't
even the right word.
It's like steroids.
Steroids on steroids.

Pat (09:53):
right?
Yeah.
That's wild.
That's wild.
I will say I, there's a few.
Recruiters that I've stayed intouch with after they've either
placed me or I went through acouple rounds of interviews and
ended up not getting the job,but we kind of stayed in touch.
And, you know, I think it's Ithink the recruiting side of it,
at least the good ones, youknow, I think it's more of

(10:16):
building a relationship cuz ifit doesn't happen right now,
they may need you down the roadfor something and that just
gives them more confidence tocome back to you cuz they do
have that repertoire, thatrelationship with that, you
know, with the recruiter and,you know, everything has a
timing aspect to it.
As, you know, everything in thisindustry is timing.

(10:37):
Right.
Or

Harry (10:37):
Oh yeah.

Pat (10:38):
a good 90% of it is timing.
So, you know, I, you know, Ithink it's probably, you know,
the good ones build

Harry (10:46):
401k.
And

Pat (10:47):
relationships with a lot of people, not necessarily based
on.
If they can place them or not.
Cuz you know, I would assumepeople jump around and
especially in the it, itindustry people jump around all
the time.
You know, the more you build arelationship, the more they're
likely to come back to you andsay, Hey, I'm looking again.
Do you have anything for me?
I don't know.
Do you wanna kind of touch onthat a little bit?

Harry (11:09):
That's definitely the case.
I mean, at the end of the day,it's, I think that goes, I mean,
that it's, it definitely appliesto the recruiting industry as a
whole, but I think that applieseverywhere.
I mean, you just making sure youbuild.
With the right people.
It's like, you know, I've alwaystold a lot of folks, especially,
you know, in my industry, right,it's a lot of this isn't about

(11:29):
what you know anymore.
It's about who you know.
Because, you know, you can havethe best resume on earth, but
you could apply all over theplace and frankly speak, you may
never get a response from justapplying the places.
You gotta have to know somebodythat can, you know, give you a
little nudge or, and that's whyrecruiters are kind of out there
so that they can, they havethose relationships.

(11:51):
You know, the hiring managers orwhoever it might be, and they
can, you know, give a littlenudge.
So that's where that kind ofrelationship piece comes in as
well, right?
So it's all about relationships,is definitely the the, you know,
the whole thing.
So yeah, it's definitely what,you know, like I said, I always
tell folks it's who you know,it's not what you know.
But, you know, buildingrelationship's absolutely
critical in recruiting just asit is in, as I said, I really

(12:14):
think in, in all aspects oflife.
Cuz you started off in thebeginning with just like, It's a
small world.
It is really a small world outthere.
There's so many scenarios I feellike I run into where people are
talking about that they'veworked with from seven years
ago, or eight years ago, or even10 years ago, where they went to
school with this person or theyplayed, you know, their kids

(12:35):
played, you know, soccertogether or whatever it is,
right?
There's so many people,especially, and like I said, in
the IT world, everyone, it justseems like everyone is, I don't
think he's, there's even sixdegrees.
I think if you talk aboutlocally, like everyone's
connected within two degrees,right?
So it is it's crazy.
It is really crazy.
So it's just like, look, buildthose relationships.

(12:56):
Don't burn any bridges.
You know, but that's it's toughcuz I always, you know, and I
think that's like for you guysfor example, like we kind of
talked about it, right?
When you try.
Build relationships with therecruiters or whatever it may
be.
Cuz it's a, it's always aninteresting concept, isn't it?
Like when you need therecruiters, then there's like a
bunch of'em out there.
But you can't, there's so manyof'em, you don't know which ones

(13:17):
are really good, which ones arebad, that, how to trust that,
which ones, and like, you know,it's like, and so I, I talk to a
lot of folks that get reallyfrustrated with recruiters and I
get it.
I completely get it.
And so it's, but it's at thesame time, it's like, you also
need'em.
So I always tell folks, I'mlike, you kind of, you kind of
have to just feel'em out andjust see which ones, you know,

(13:39):
you feel like you can trust justlike anyone else.
Right?

Pat (13:42):
yeah.

Harry (13:43):
I mean, I think that's what it comes down to.

Pat (13:46):
Yeah.
I always find the onesinteresting too, like you said,
there's, you know, in therecruiting industry there's good
and bad, right?
And w with anything, there'sgood and bad, just depends on
how hard you look.
But I always find itinteresting, like the head
hunters that I get, that justland in my inbox, it's like, oh,
I have a six month contract inBoise, Idaho.
I'm like, do you know where I'mat?
Like, I'm not moving to Boisefor six months.
And, you know what I mean?

(14:06):
Like, it just, like, I just,that frustrates me of like, I
get that they're just massmailers and that's what I feel
like they automatically go inthe trash because it's like,
look, if you're not gonna offerme a job, either a remote full.
Or be somewhere, like we said,you know, we all live in the
same area.
We're all here in Pennsylvaniawithin, you know, 50 ish miles

(14:28):
of where I'm living.
Like, you're completely wastingmy time.
Like, it makes no sense.
Or like, sometimes I get thoseemails where it's like for the
for like the state, like out inHarrisburg, We need a level one
technician for six months.
And I'm like, do you know?
Like, no, you don't know who Iam.
Cause it's a mass mailer.
But like, that's what frustratesme.

(14:48):
It's like these people that justsent massive, like headhunter
emails and just, they cast awide net and whatever they
catch.
But they're like, I just get soannoyed.
I'm like, oh God.
I wish they would just do like alittle homework with like, go a
long way.
But that, I guess that's justthe name of their game.

Harry (15:03):
Yeah, that's the, it depends on the organization and
then the way how it all works,right?
Because you have organizationsthat just have tons of
recruiters out there, and it'spurely a volume game.
So it's just, let me blast asmany people as I can, because
then I'll get more responses.
And it's like, that's not how Ioperate.
And I think that's how I havethe team operate because I think
that's completely inefficient.

(15:25):
But hey, look, every, to eachtheir own, right?
I mean, they every organizationruns their their strategy a bit
differently, right?
Plus like a lot of those massmailers that you're getting in
where, like you said, like, Hey,I'm gonna give you something in
Pittsburgh and Pittsburgh's inPennsylvania, so it's gotta be
pretty close to you, right?
But, of them are also comingfrom what they're probably

(15:46):
overseas too.
You get a lot of just like, Imean, a lot of outsourced
recruiters that just, they don'thave a clue.
You know, obviously thedistance.
I mean, you could chat G P T andI guess, or Google it, but that
takes some time too.

Pat (16:00):
Yep.

Harry (16:01):
But

Pat (16:02):
And for you wondering, Pittsburgh is about six hours
west of where Harry, Kyle and Iare.
So just for a little geographiclesson

Harry (16:09):
Right?
Right.
Right.

Pat (16:11):
I, for 1:00 AM not traveling six hours, one way to
go to a eight hour job.
So

Harry (16:16):
Yep.

Kyle (16:17):
So I was curious, I don't know if we, if maybe I'm hitting
this too soon, but.
Yeah.
You said you've been doing thisa while now, and I'm curious how
like the job trends and thelength that people stay at a
certain job have changedthroughout like your career so
far.
Like have you noticed peoplelike, Hey, you know, I'm a lifer
and now it's like people arelike, oh, it's two years and I'm

(16:38):
on to the next, you know, like,how's that been?

Harry (16:40):
I think in general it's that the tenure of folks working
at, in an organization isdefinitely shortened as a
general rule right now, thatdoesn't, you know, you have some
folks that enjoy, you know, theyhave some really good folks in
some organizations and they stayfor a while because there's,
they get promoted and there's alot of growth.
They really like the team orculture or whatever it may be.

(17:02):
But if I if to answer that in acompletely generalized
statement, I think it'sdefinitely shorter.
I mean, I just think, and Ithink it's definit.
You know, like there, I can gointo a little bit about this,
but I mean, you got into like,you know, my parents' age or our
parents' age, I should say.
Right?
I mean, like my, it's funny, I'mlooking at Pat's shirt.

(17:22):
He's got a Norfolk Southernshirt.
So my, my dad, which is crazy,my dad works for Conrail, so
that's why,

Pat (17:28):
Oh, no

Harry (17:29):
Conrail was acquired by Norfolk Southern years and years
back.
But he worked for Conrad'sentire career.
My mom worked for the city ofPhiladelphia her entire career,
you know, both 30 years,whatever it was.
So it's like, I don't know howmuch that happens these days.
I just, and you know, I wouldsay that happens, you know, ver
definitely much less than it didbefore.

(17:51):
And I think it's probablytrending that way where folks
are staying at theirorganizations less and less.
I mean, I think I read somearticle out there, like if you
and I don't.
I'm not condoning people do thiscuz I also think it's a
difficult, and it's a, and Ithink at a certain point you're
gonna hit a kind of a maxcapacity here, but I think I
read somewhere, if you changejobs every two years, your gross

(18:13):
income over your career orwhatever it will be is like, you
know, will be significantlyhigher than if you stayed at the
same organization for, you know,20 years or whatever it was.
Right now, I don't know anyonewho's doing that methodically
like two years and I'm goingsomewhere else, I'm going
somewhere else, I'm goingsomewhere.
And like I said, that's got,that has to ultimately stop

(18:35):
somewhere.
Right?
But but it, but there was somearticle somewhere that I read
about that that, you know, ifyou do change jobs every two
years, you technically willsignificantly increase your take
home.
Now, I don't know, like I saidhow long, how that would last in
a extended period, butdefinitely within a vacuum of.

(18:55):
You know, whatever you want tocall it, six years, eight years,
10 years, then you probably canmake it, make a case for that.

Kyle (19:03):
Okay, now now I guess that then kind of jumps me in my next
one.
And this is more maybe just likea personal experience thing.
So have you ever placed anybodylike tier one and then they are
like a repeat visitor.
They come back and they're like,look at all these skills I got
now.
And you like, you feel like aproud popper.
Just like, oh look, you've grownand you get to hand them off to

(19:23):
something else.

Harry (19:26):
Yeah, I mean, we get.
We get that.
I, that happens.
I do see that, but it doesn'tall organically flow through me.
Right.
So like, to give you like anexample, right?
I, that happens all the timewhere I stay connected to folks
that are tier ones and then theybe, you know, they get their
ccna, they moved into networkingor they somehow went into
security or whatever it is paththey went to.

(19:46):
And I still stay in touch with'em.
And I usually like, you know,fall'em away, congratulate'em
sometimes, like I'll work withthem again years, like a years
down the road or whatever it maybe, right?
In most cases though, I won't,it won't be one of those
scenarios where it's like, okay,now like, Congratulations, son.
We're gonna move you on to yournext, like, move, right?
Because they're at, becausethey're probably doing well with

(20:09):
your current organization.
And you know, just from youknow, o obviously from a, a
business perspective, I just,it's not something that I do
where I pull you out of yourcurrent organization that I put
you there.
Cause I have a relationship witha client as well, right?
So it's not, it's bad businessto do that.
So, you know, so in general,that's that's, that doesn't

(20:29):
happen a ton, but yes.

Kyle (20:30):
Okay.
Okay.

Pat (20:33):
See, there you go.
And I'll kind of just talk frommy personal experience as well.
And for those of you that listento this show, you kind of know
this, but I've had, I wanna saysix jobs in the last.
10 years.
So I am basically what Harrysaid, like the job hopper for
every two years.
And I'll tell you like my salaryhas tripled due to that, due to

(20:56):
moving around.
So, you know, Harry's right?
With, you know, the two yearsand off you go, or three years
and off you go.
That sort of thing.
Like you, you're gonna, you'regonna increase your salary more
as you job hop than you wouldwaiting for a raise at your
current place, no matter howhard you work.
It just doesn't happen that way.

(21:16):
Right?
So, and Alex isn't here to takecredit for this particular
phrase, but, you know, your nextjob should always be your
biggest pay race.
That's what it comes down to.
Plained and simple, right?
So he's the one that coined thatand told me that years ago.
So, that's just what it is.
So, yeah I would agree.
I think the IT industry movesincredibly fast, both from a
technology perspective and froma people perspective of just

(21:37):
moving around and.
You gotta get paid, you know,and the quicker you get paid,
the better off you are.
Right?
So I just, that's just what itis.
I feel like that's just kind ofwhere it is as an industry.
Cuz on the other foot, right?
If those companies had to makecuts and whatnot for whatever
reason, they're not gonna thinkbad.

(21:57):
They're not gonna think bad ortwice about cutting you loose.
So if you have a betteropportunity come your way, you
don't feel bad about cutting'emloose.
That's just what it is.
And I, it sounds kind of mean tosay, but you know, it just, it
is what it is, right?
They're, they gotta do what'sbest for business.
And I think personally, jobhopping or at least, you know,
interviewing for a job, it's abusiness transaction at that

(22:19):
point.
You gotta take all the feelingout of it.
It's literally a purely abusiness perspective.
Okay?
I'm gonna do this task for you.
You're gonna pay me X amount ofmoney and like, that's it.
Like, that's what today'sbusiness world is.
It's a truly, they've taken allthe emotional feeling, been in a
company 30 years, retire, goldenwatch thing out of it.

(22:40):
They've literally taken it allgone.
So it's like, look, if you got adifferent, if you got another
spot that's willing to pay youmore and it's worth it, or
whatever the timing aspect is,I, you know, go for it.
You know, it's just, it is justa different world today.
I guess.
That's probably my

Harry (22:56):
I think it's, I honestly think it's always been like
that, right?
It's always like, it's just busbusiness is business, right?
Like c like companies are gonnado what's best for their bottom
line and their shareholders,right?
That's the reality of it.
And I think in the past therewas a bit, you know, I, maybe
there was, I don't know if therewas less layoffs or whatever it
was, but maybe it was just, itwasn't as public as maybe what

(23:17):
it was, is it in, in thatscenario, right?
So you just, you didn't hearabout it as much, but at the end
of the day, like you said,they're gonna do what's, it
doesn't matter.
They're not, they're gonna dowhat's best for their business,
their bottom line, theirshareholders, all that other
stuff.
So it's all businesstransactions.
So yeah, you're absolutelyright.
I think, but there's definitely.
I think from a employee sidethere's still some type of, you

(23:42):
know, you still have to havesome type of cautious approach,
is maybe the best way to put it,right?
Because unfortunately, right,you still have, you know, you
have the job hopper thing,right?
So if you hop too much, you kindof get a negative, you know, you
know what, whatever kind of ascarlet letter slap to you,

(24:02):
right?
Where it's like, Hey, look,you're the job hopper and here's
the, there's maybe some riskhere, which frankly speaking,
it's then a business decision aswell.
Cuz then you have a, you havethe next company or employer,
whoever it is that sees.
And that's a, that's becomes abusiness risk that they say, do

(24:22):
we want to take, or do we notwant to take, right.
Because we take this risk of dothey, will they stay or will
they not stay Right.
And that could potentially harmyou down the road.
But it, and it could not, right?
It doesn't, it really justdepends on the employer and the
whole thing.
So I think there's always, youstill have to play it with
caution, of course.
Like I always tell folks itdoesn't matter however you
approach it, just stayprofessional with everything and

(24:43):
for the most part it should befine.
I mean, with your, within thetech career though, some of that
job hopping, per se, is alittle, unless it's really
erratic is is really.
It's not as detrimental, Ithink.
Right?
So if you're in other role,like, okay, so for instance, if
I'm hiring a recruiter, if I'mhiring a salesperson or

(25:05):
something like that, and you'vejob hopped I won't even probably
talk to you, is the reality.
Just because.
You probably haven't been ableto stay at an organization long
enough to prove enough valuethat, you know, if you've only
been there a year.
Right.
But like in the tech field, likewith what you guys do what you
guys deliver is so black andwhite, it's, you know, I either
know I can do it or I can't doit.

(25:26):
Right.
But from a sales perspectiveit's much, there's so much more
gray areas in there and so Ilook at that a lot different.
So a lot of that job hoverdepends also on probably the
type of, you know, industryyou're in.
And that's also why in the techfield too, I mean, you know, I
don't know how much you guyshave heard, like this has been
term terms been coined, youknow, for the last like, two
years, right.
The whole, we're in this like,gig economy, right?

(25:48):
So you now have like, I dunno ifyou, have you heard of like
Fiver or freelancer or, right.
So you now have all these, youknow, all these Consultants
doing side gigs and all thisother stuff because we're in
this gig economy where it's justlike, I think a lot of people
have realized like exactly whatyou said, pat, like it, it's you
know, the whole 30 years at theorganization, we give you the,

(26:12):
you know, we give you the watch,we give you the clock after the
10 years.
I, I think they're just like,look, just give me a task.
We're gonna negotiate a pay thatyou're gonna pay me for this
task, and we're gonna agree tothat.
When I'm finished the task, I'mdone.
I'm gonna move on to my nextgig.
Right?
So, so you have a lot of thatgoing on, I think, these days,

(26:33):
and I think there's, what I'veseen is there's more and more
you know, in over the years,there's more and more what I
would say you know, I call'emindependent consultants, right?
Where folks, you know, I talk toa lot of folks who are just
like, look, I'm not gonna.
I'm, I think I'm not gonna workfor an organization, I'm just
gonna work for myself and justpick up contract gigs for, you
know, six months, 12 months, twoyears, whatever they want.

(26:56):
Right?
But I don't need to get paid bythem.
I'm gonna just bill my time out.
Now it's a tough decisionbecause you gotta go find them
and you gotta, of course,there's a lot of variables with
that, a lot of risk with that.
But at the end of the day, ifyou're good and you can, you're,
you have some flexibility andyou can do a bunch of different
things.
There's some value to that.

(27:17):
Right.
So, you know, I've seen a lotmore of that today though.

Pat (27:22):
No I think that's interesting.
I think it's I think it's a,it's an interesting thing,
especially you mentioned thefiber thing.
I actually signed up for fiber Idon't wanna say like a year or
two ago.
And Upwork is the other one,

Harry (27:32):
Yep.
Upwork is a big one.

Pat (27:34):
that I've done.
And I haven't gotten any gigs oneither of them, just cause I
haven't put the time in then tokind of, you know, whatever.
So that's kind of on me.
I thought it was maybe good forsome extra scratch or whatever.
I got one nibble on fiber and itwas some guy that I forget, he
was a director somewhere that heneeded some like, like basic
stuff done or whatever, X, Y,and Z.
And I was like, oh, okay.

(27:54):
I can, you know, I can do thatand you know this, you know,
this is the avenue.
We'll probably go like this isbest practice, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
And like for some reason helike, he was like, oh I know
what it was.
He obviously, he didn't want topay me what I thought what he
was asking was worth at thatpoint.
And then he's like, ah, he endedthis quote will stick with me

(28:15):
for whatever reason.
He goes, ah.
He goes I've I've gotten a lotof people reaching out to me to
do work and I know what I needspecifically done.
And he goes, I don't want abunch of, he goes, I don't want
to pay a rookie to come in hereand learn stuff on my network.
I'm like, dude, like.
My credentials are in myprofile.
Like I've get, like we've hadconversations that, you know,

(28:36):
I'm not like, I'm not an idiotwhen it comes to this stuff.
And he's like, I don't want somerookie coming in here and
working on my network for freeand getting experience for free.
I'm like, dude, I gotta go.
Like, I can't talk to you.
Like, I was like, yeah, it'slike just some like weird stuff
that goes on out there.
What whatnot.
But I could totally see the gigeconomy kind of being that, that

Harry (28:55):
Well, so

Pat (28:56):
because So go ahead.

Harry (28:57):
yeah, I was gonna say I think it needs, I think you need
to, it, it definitely needs tobe refined a bit.
It's a bit wild west ish outthere right now.
And that's,

Pat (29:07):
gonna say that it's perfect.

Harry (29:08):
that's what I meant to, that's what I was gonna ask you
is.
Like, you don't have to, youknow, you don't have to tell
the, you know, say the customeror say who it was.
But was it like a company, wasit like, like actually a
company?
Were they mid-size, small size,large, enterprise size?
Or was it just like a random guythat, that owned like you know,

(29:28):
like a coffee shop or somethinglike that?
You know what I mean?
So I

Pat (29:31):
Yeah, I think it was mid-size.
It was more mid-size.
I think.
I can't remember the guy, Ican't remember the specifics,
but it, he had a director titleto him.
It did sound mid-size now theywere using ubiquity.
And me personally, I just thinkubiquity is like prosumer stuff.
I don't think it belongs in theenterprise type suites, but a
lot of people swear by it.
Right.
A lot of people love theubiquity stuff.

(29:51):
It's, you know, it's a poorman's HP Aruba switches.
Right.
That's what I think it is.
So like, you know, so like hedid have decent you, he had
stuff in there now whether, youknow, whether it was good or
whether what he wanted, blah,blah, blah.
So, you know, but it was I thinkit was like a mid-size thing.
So like he was just, I think itwas just very particular.

(30:11):
What he was looking for.
And I don't know if I likeflagged a key word that he
didn't wanna like, you know,this guy's a whatever.
He's like, yeah, I don't wantsome rookie coming in here.
I'm like, all right dude, I'llshow you a rookie.
Like, you know, it's just weirdto, I dunno, it's just weird.
But I, yeah, I, you know, Ithink the gig economy is a
decent way to go, especially ifyou have a spouse that that

(30:32):
works full-time and has decentbenefits that can bring you on
and you don't have to then pacefor your own benefits.
Like for example, my wife's apublic school teacher, she
teaches second grade, so, youknow, she's got the teacher
benefits, which historically arepretty decent, right?
It's not like they're, you know,scraping the bottom of the
barrel over there in the publiceducation system.
But you know, so technically Icould do just a contract and

(30:56):
float from contract to contractbecause we're all covered under
her insurance anyway.
So, you know, if you have thatflexibility of somebody who
already has.
Benefits, then you couldliterally just do the contract
and just go straight for themoney and then you're, you know,
you're ex, you're earning anextra scratch or whatever it is.
So, you know, there's multipleways to skin that, you know,

(31:17):
skin that cap.
But I know a lot of people thatare doing the fiber and the
Upwork and that sort of thingto, to kind of make an extra,
you know, do an extra gig.
And, you know, as long as youtake the taxes out for it you're
good to go there.
Charlie Brown.
So it's all

Harry (31:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when you, when and when youwere doing that, so like the
fiver thing, when you saw that,like for example, like did you,
was that, were they giving youlike a, were they, would you
guys have a negotiated orobviously you didn't, it didn't
go through, but was it plannedto be a negotiated rate for a
deliverable or were they gonnasay, Hey, we're gonna, we need
you for an estimated 40 hoursand we're gonna pay you X

(31:53):
dollars an hour for that?
Like, is that,

Pat (31:56):
it was like a flat rate.
So like he basically put out inhis ad, I need X, Y, and z.

Harry (32:01):
Done?

Pat (32:02):
then I said, okay, I can do X, Y, and Z and like as part of
your profile, you have to give adollar range on what you charge
per hour sort of thing.
So then he basically said, nowcan I get you for X?
And I was like, no, like whatyou're asking for warrants my
rate.
And then that's where theconversation started to kind of
fall apart.
So yeah, like he broke out whathe needed in his sort of, you

(32:24):
know, call to action or whateverthat, whatever the hell they
call it.
But yeah.
And then it's, you know, butthere are things over there like
I, I think there are things oflike, Hey, I can need you for,
you know, again, like you said,Harry, 40 hours or, you know,
whatever it is.
And then, you know, but a lot ofit's just one and done project
sort of thing.
And then you kind of give'em inyour thing, say, Hey, depending

(32:44):
on what you're looking at, thiswill probably take me 25 hours
or whatever it is.
And then, but there are, like Isaid, there are folks that just
say, Hey, I'm gonna need youfor.
60 hours over the next twomonths or whatever it is.
And that's the negotiation kindof goes from there,

Harry (33:00):
So you're dictating the level of effort, is that right?
Is that how you would see it?
Okay.
I'm just curious on how thatworks.
I haven't I've tried to use thaton my side as like a as like a,
as a customer, I would say,right?
And I haven't had a lot ofsuccess for a couple reasons,
but I was, I'm just more curiouson how that works.
Like I said, I think there'sdefinitely some opportunities

(33:21):
for those organizations to, tomaybe fine tune that process a
bit.
But I'm just thinking like fromyour side, if you take on a, an
engagement where you have adeliverable and whatever that
deliverable is, you know, set upyou know, small networkers, you
know, Hey, we're refreshing fiveof our switches, can you come
ref replace those?
And some of those may be a bitmore clear cut, black and white.

(33:44):
But in, in a lot of scenarios,and you guys have probably seen
this, right?
You're like, oh, this probably,this could take me 10 hours, but
if your network's completelyjacked up, this could take me.
Three weeks.
Right, exactly.
So there, there's a huge grayarea there where it's like, how
do you know that without, youknow, and how do you commit to

(34:04):
saying, Hey, I can do thiswithout really understanding
some of those, like, you know, Iguess you wanna call it
assumptions.
I don't know what they are,

Pat (34:11):
Yeah.
Then you kind of walk in.
Yeah.
You give'em a price, they say,yeah.
Then you walk in there, it'slike a billion skeletons in that
closet, and you're

Harry (34:17):
Yeah.
It's all duct taped together.

Pat (34:19):
hours and I've, you know, I'm only charging'em for 40, you
know, some dumb shit

Harry (34:23):
Right, right, right.
Exactly.

Pat (34:25):
I get it.
I totally get it.
So I guess kind of pivotingthere a little bit like what do
you look for in.
Like resumes to say, okay, yesthis person may be a good
candidate.
Like what, you know, is theresort of, I don't wanna say red
flags, but is there likekeywords that you're looking
for, is it based on job or basedon what the client is looking
for that you kind of do yourbest shot?

(34:45):
Like what does that

Harry (34:47):
Yeah, I mean, like for me, everything's based off of
what the client's looking for.
There's no, resumes are funny.
It's a funny thing because likeI've always said, there's gotta
be a better res, a better way todo a resume too.
I can't think of it exactlytoday, but there's gotta be a
better way to do the resume.
The resume's been around forwhat?
like,

Pat (35:06):
A billion years.

Harry (35:07):
know Exactly.
Since like they, they werewriting resumes on like stone
blocks, right?
Like, it's like,

Pat (35:12):
Egyptians were like, Hey, that could be king.
Here's my resume.

Harry (35:15):
Right, right, right.
Exactly.
So like, they've been aroundforever and nothing's changed.
And you, and like here we are in2023 with chat G B T writing our
resumes for us.
And you have, you know, youliterally just have, it's still.
Whatever it is on a piece ofpaper, like your experience on a
piece of paper again, and it'sjust like nothing's changed with
that.

(35:36):
So I, you know, but anyway I'lldigress from that.
In any case, from a resumeperspective you know how from a
recruiter's, employers, thewhole thing, when they look at
resumes, I think the averagerecruiter looks at your resume
for like three seconds, right?
So what you put in there is,like, some of the stuff in there
is, doesn't even really makesense.

(35:57):
So for me, I think a big part ofresumes is most important stuff
at the top, right?
Because you, I.
So the whole one page resumething, I also disagree with that
cause it's like, look, if youhave 15 years of experience, how
do you put it all on one page soyou can put it, now, I don't
think it should be 12 pages oreven seven pages or six pages,

(36:19):
but I still think you can haveit to be three pages to kind of
explain your background.
But you, but your most importantstuff is at the top, right?
So like the things you did 10years ago, it's not that
important.
So you can, I don't necessarilyagree with like throwing it out
there, but just put like one ortwo bullet points there.
Hey, I was a desktop tech 20years ago or 15 years ago cuz

(36:40):
that's how I got into theindustry and this is what it's,
right.
So, but from a resumeperspective, I do think it's
like, put all the stuff that'simportant at the top, especially
as it pertains to what you wantto do who you are and what you
want to do, right?
So don't list skills.
Like, sometimes people get socaught up in this.

(37:01):
Like, I wanna put every skillsetI know I have, I can learn, I
can spell and I want to throw itall in there.
And it's like, I have 50skillset sets.
And it's like, the truth is,first of all, you're probably
not great at all of'em and youprobably don't want to do 80% of
'em, right?
So it's like, why are youputting all that stuff in there?

(37:22):
So it's like, focus on what yourcore skill sets are, what you
wanna do.
Right?
And those should be at the top,right?
Okay.
These are my general skill sets.
As you, if you have some reallycritical certs, like you have,
you know, CCMP and ccis,whatever, it's throw them at the
top that's important.
And then just drop right intoyour first experience, right?
Your most recent experience ofwhat you're doing.

(37:45):
And then that way it's that, youknow, you have it structured
that way.
I'd say structure is the mostimportant though.
You have the structure there andthen you have, you know, like
you have you just have like, youknow, your experiences, your
most recent one should be yourmost important, and then that
should have the most meat to it.
And then it should, you know,dwindle down as it as your as

(38:06):
you go further back into yourbackground, right?
Because some of that stuff is,it's less fresh, it's less
important, maybe.
You know, so I think that's theway I would approach it, you
know, and I think you.
A little bit cautious sometimes.
This is that job hopping thing.
You gotta be a little cautiouswith how that's written now too,
because if that looks like youknow, you just have your first

(38:28):
two pages and there's like six,you know, jobs like you
mentioned.
Right.
You know, I think you gotta bekind of strategic on how you how
you have those broken down andthings of that nature too.
Cuz same thing, it's just atfirst glance, sometimes some
people look at that, they see itand it's like trash.
Move on to the next, move on tonext, move on to the next.

(38:49):
So, you know, what you're tryingto do is just maximize you're
trying to maximize that timethat someone's reading your
resume.
So they may look at it, mostpeople may look at it only for
three seconds, but if it looksgood at, in those three seconds,
I may give you 10 seconds.
And then if it looks good at the10 seconds, then maybe I'll read
the whole first page.
Right.
And then I'll be like, okay, nowI'm really digesting cause I'm

(39:10):
using my time.
But a lot of times like, allright, well, nope.
I'm just like swapping through.
It's almost like, like, like,was it Tinder?
Right?
You're just like, SW

Pat (39:19):
right, baby.

Harry (39:20):
swiping.
Right, right.
Or swiping left.
What?
Swiping left, left, left.
Whatever there is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
That's that.
They came around, right, right.
When I met my wife.
But it's, you know, I know youget the gist.

Pat (39:32):
No, I think that's important.
I think, and I was curious onthe one page thing, like what
your thoughts are on that,because you know, I'm sort of in
that boat of like, look, I'vebeen doing this since high
school and I've literally theonly ever done tech in the
professional world.
I've not had another job ever.
So like, you know, I've had 10,12, whatever they are, whatever
the number is now.
But I'm, yeah, I was curious onthe one page thing.

(39:53):
I think what you said makessense as far as, you know,
obviously the important stuff atthe top, cuz there's so many
resumes out there and so manycandidates for X, Y, and Z jobs,
right?
So you have to sort of stick outor don't have to sort out, you
have to stick out in order toget the time.
Or I should say, You know, theright eyes.

(40:14):
The other thing I wanted tomention too, and I've come
across this a little bit aswell, necessarily not in the,
it's in the recruiting world,but not through a, not through
an agency such as Ray or Courtor Robert Haff or any of those
other staffing places, but likeI've had place, I've had
interviews for places that theHR person was the sort of
gatekeeper in your first call tomake sure you're not like a

(40:36):
serial killer sort of thing.
And then if you impressed them,then they got you onto the
hiring manager sort of thing.
But I've always found that as adisadvantage because the HR
person has no clue what you'retalking about from a tech
perspective.
So like, I've had frustrationswith that of like, you can tell
that they're reading off apaper, like you can tell that

(40:58):
they're reading off bulletpoints to be like, do you know O
S P F?
And do you know, Erica, and I'mlike, no it's E I g R P.
You spell the letters out, lady.
You know, like it's one of thosethings.
So like, you know, but I, youknow, you had that conversation
and then you never hear fromthem again.
But it's like you didn't reallyget a fair shot because the
person on their end, other endthat was talking to you has no

(41:20):
clue what your day-to-day is orwhat they're actually hiring
for.
So that, I've always found thata frustration too.
And I've had the, a couple timeslike that.
So, you know, I can appreciatethe person that I'm, or the
person that's reaching out forme for a job, knowing what the
job, at least to a coreperspective or at least a 50,000
of a view, like knows what thatjob entails and I can at least

(41:41):
speak intelligently to it tohold the conversation.

Harry (41:44):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
I can speak with some of the HRstuff because I, well, I was
told if you're not, you know, ifyou're not gonna say anything
nice, don't say anything at all.
Right.
So,

Pat (41:55):
I love it, Harry.
I love it.

Harry (41:56):
I'm not, so, I, the HR piece, I can't really speak too
much about.
I just I, you know, and I thinkit goes to you know, the same
thing like you mentioned before,right?
There's a lot of good ones, alot of good, bad ones.
So there's folks in between, Ithink in general though, I think
everything I've heard, what I'veheard is just HR folks don't
really like recruiting for itpeople either for the same

(42:18):
reason, right?
They don't know how to talk to'em, they don't know the
language, they don't really knowwhat they're looking for, which
I think lends itself to morerecruiters in the industry
because that's where, you know,cuz and that's, they are the
gatekeeper.
And frankly speaking, you havehiring managers that are super
frustrated with their own HRteams.
And that's, they tell me thisall the time, which is why we

(42:40):
get involved in it.
They just say, Hey look I neededsomebody.
A week ago, and hrs been lookingfor six weeks and I haven't seen
anyone yet.
So it's like, are they rejectingeveryone or are they just not
even looking at it?
I don't even know.
Right.
I and I, and that's why I said,I don't know, I don't know
exactly what goes on in that HRfield there, so I can't speak

(43:01):
about it.
But that's also why I do knowthat there's a lot of hiring
managers that, that would justreach out to us directly and
say, look, we really needsomebody.
Can you help this, turn thisaround within, you know, a week.
Right.
And that's where we come in andget going.
And, you know, we can also havethose conversations and talk
through, you know, strengths,weaknesses, where you would fit,

(43:22):
where you're, you know, whattools you have and, you know,
whatever it may be.

Pat (43:27):
No, makes sense.

Kyle (43:27):
So now you said you kind of just glanced through the
resume a little bit and whatnot.
How do you.
Get like a good feeling ofsomebody's actual technical
ability or whatnot before youplace'em to know that it's not
just a bunch of fluff that theythrew on the page and they're
like, look, big words.
It lots of like acronyms andstuff, you know, and you're like

(43:50):
looking at it, you're like, howcould one person be this good at
everything, you know?

Harry (43:54):
I'll tell you what, for me, Elise, and this isn't the
same thing, like this is reallyit really varies.
Recruited recruiter, but for meat least, I think the way your
resume's written, I think if youre if I'm getting through it and
I get to that three seconds nowI'm at the 10 seconds, I'm maybe
reading all your firstexperience.
I can get it and I, and thenI'll glance through like what

(44:16):
you've done and get a summary ofwhat you've done in the last,
let's call it three to fiveyears based off of what you've
done in your experiences.
I'll usually get a pretty good Iusually can.
Then just from that idea, fromthat re you know, reading of
that, have a pretty good idea oflike kind of what level you were
at based off of.
How, like some of the thingsthat you've done, most people in
their resume will write, well,they'll put the things that

(44:37):
they've done right.
They're not just copying a jobdescription and throwing in
there, even though I have seenthat plenty of times.
But like they'll put specificthings, right?
Design and implemented thesolution or implemented whatever
it was for a, you know, multisite, you know, campus or
whatever, you know.
So that usually in how thingsare written, I can get a general

(44:59):
idea of what your skillset islike, you know, or if it's just
like, Hey, I did moreadministration stuff.
I was taking tickets and I wastroubleshooting this and I was
on call here providing goodcustomer service there.
So you have a general idea inthat sense from reading through
their backgrounds, especiallycuz if you.
10 bullet points in your mostrecent experience, and seven of

(45:20):
'em are around end users andcustomers and you know,
administration and takingtickets and stuff like that.
And then the one you have, maybeone or two that say, you know,
helped with some implementationthan, I'm gonna assume that your
most, you're more administrationor whatever it is, operational
support than you areengineering, design, et cetera.
So just to give you like a, an alive example.

(45:41):
And then from there, of coursethen the next step is of course,
you call me, talk to'em.
And then there's, you know, andthen you start asking'em just
general questions around, Idon't know.
I think my, what I always startwith just like, what I like to
understand is where, whatsomebody does and what they,
what their responsibilities areand what their team looks like
and where they fit within thatteam.

(46:03):
Because, you know, everyorganization runs things a
little bit differently.
So you have your, like you couldbe a network engineer at
Comcast.
But you're just doing one thingover and over and over again,
right?
So it's just like, tell me aboutwhat your team does, what your
team's responsible for, and who,how many folks are on that team,
and where do you sit within theteam?
Is it just like, like in yourcase, if we're talking network

(46:25):
engineering, is it three networkengineers and you guys all
support everything?
Or do you guys, is one personthe wireless guy and one
person's the firewall guy,right?
And where do you sit withinthere?
So I think usually that's h howI start.
I try to get an understanding ofwho you are, where, what your
skillset is, what your currentteam looks like, and where you

(46:45):
sit on that team.
Right?
So and what the team, so what'sthe team do as a whole, and then
what you do.
And I think that helps me painta really good picture as to at
least what you're currentlydoing without getting into some
of the wildly technical things.
Right.
And then I'll, and then I canask like higher questions.
Okay.
So if you have this team ofthree folks, and then I may say
like, okay, well if you're doingif you're gonna redesign the

(47:05):
network or do it inimplementation, how is that
done?
Who does that?
Is that someone, do you bring onan ex external consultant?
Is that something you two, threefolks, whatever it is, and you
guys just, you know, sittogether and whiteboard it and
just do it and just kind ofimplement it together.
Right.
And that'll give me, once again,kind of gives me a good sense of
like how much you guys own, howmuch you own as within the team

(47:26):
and the organization.
So that, that generally is whereI kind of how I stand there.
Right.
I just, I kind of make theassumption that you were hired,
you can do the job and you havethe technical skills to the job.
So I just need to understandwhat general, like where your
level skill set are.
And I, and you know, I'll askfolks.
I think most people.
Are not trying to oversellthemselves too much because it's

(47:50):
not gonna look good either.
Right?
Right.
That's the reality.
Like you, you come in and say,Hey, I'm a, I'm, you know, I'm
the and I can usually sniff thatout pretty, pretty pretty good
because, you know, talk to somefolks and they'll say like, you
know, they're the best thing canslice bread, they can do
anything they invented, youknow, B G P and all this other
stuff, right?
Like, so it's just like, youknow, I'm like, okay, like if

(48:12):
that's the case, like, you know,I either completely lucked out
here or I'm, you're, you know,you're probably not.

Kyle (48:19):
right, right.

Harry (48:20):
So,

Pat (48:21):
No, that's funny.
I guess, my next question, Iknow we're kind of getting
close, but I'm curious to see,I'm curious to get your
thoughts, Harry, on like,obviously the news of the last,
I don't wanna say.
Six months, eight months, maybeeven a year, depending on how
far you wanna go back, is thebig tech and the layoffs and
that sort of, sort of swing thatwe're in right now.

(48:45):
And everything is cyclical.
I'm sure you've seen that fromyour years.
Right.
But, you know, and people wannasay, oh, well, you know, big
tech and they're, andeverybody's sort of laying off
and shrinking down but as Alexand I said a couple weeks ago I
mean, look at all the peoplethat they've hired in the last,
I don't wanna say three to fiveyears through the pandemic and
the whole deal.

(49:05):
I still think they're in theblack as far as like they've
hired way more people thanthey've actually fired.
But you know, You never get goodpublicity when you fire people
or when there's mass layoffs,right.
That's just the, that's just thelong and short of it.
But I think they've, I thinkFacebook is still on Twitter and
all those big tech companies,they're still, they've still
hired more people by far thanthey've actually fired.

(49:27):
Now I'm not saying that, youknow, the firing is good or good
for public image or whatever,and there's always that
discussion of, you know, bigcorporation evil.
I get it.
Like, so, like what are you seenow with like, some of the way
the industry is now and wherethe waters are, and is there any
sort of any sort of thoughts youcan kind of give me on that?
Or what?
Some, if somebody's coming rightoutta co or like, I would say if

(49:48):
somebody's gonna ready to finishup their degree in the.
Six months to a year, and nowlike, they're kind of nervous.
It's like, oh, you know, the jobmarket isn't that hot, because
two years ago it was booming.
Like I had a billion peopleknocking at my door and I had my
pick, right.
So now it's not like thatanymore.
So any kind of insight there asto fu Like is there any trends
that you can see or have seen oranything like that?

Harry (50:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think like, so what you mentioned with
the it's all cyclical, right?
So this is just.
the, we had the two, we had theinsane two years where there was
no one unemployed and everyone,people were getting wild offers
for to go to anotherorganization.

(50:33):
They were, I mean, they wereoverpaying out, out the nose
because they had to.
If you really needed someone,then you have a lot of these
layoffs, which is in big tech.
But the reality of this is like,in especially we're talking the
tech industry.
I'm not, you know, I'm not gonnaspeak for, you know, employment
as a whole, but the techindustry is still, unemployment
within tech industry isprobably, it's never really

(50:55):
gone, you know, above like 3% orsomething like that.
Or two, two and a half percent.
Like unemployment techindustry's always been low.
It doesn't matter what happens,right?
And everyone that got laid offat Big Tech, they're gonna find
something somewhere else prettyquickly.
I've talked to some folks thatwere laid off from Facebook and
Google.

(51:15):
And they're not, I mean, like, Iin general, they're not even
really that pissed.
They're just like, yeah, youknow, I'm gonna take some time,
gonna figure out what I want todo.
I got a bunch of people knockingon my door for opportunities.
So, you know, I think ingeneral, like they're gonna find
something else.
There's a lot of folks hiring.
There's always, you know, if youlook at, I don't have all the

(51:36):
statistics, but if you look atlike the open number of IT jobs
out there, you still have aninsane number of IT jobs out
there.
So I, I just don't think that Idon't think that I think it's
just news is, like youmentioned, it's just news and
it's not good news cuz theygotta talk about layoffs.
So it's not good news, but howit impacts folks directly it's

(51:57):
just, I think what'll happen iscompensation will level off a
bit, maybe even go down a littlebit over the next couple years.
Cuz I just think just likeeverything else, I mean you look
at like the housing market andthe hou, I mean, what a car, a
carton eggs is like eight bucksnow.
But like, you know, it justcan't sustain that.
So, you know, I think ingeneral, right, I think in

(52:18):
general that, that part may kindof, stabilize a bit.
I do think you mentioned kind ofcoming outta school, come grad.
I think that's where in thistime you're gonna get hit the
hardest.
So if you're just graduatingright now, I think that's where
you're getting hit the hardestbecause the problem is you're
gonna come right outta schoolwith little to no experience and

(52:38):
now you're competing with somepeople that were laid off that
have experience.
So I think that's where you'regonna have to really step up and
You know, kind of differentiateyourself a bit as to why you
know you might be better thanthe next person.
So that's where I think it'sgonna be a little harder than it
was a couple years ago, youknow, coming outta school

(53:00):
without much experience.
I think the challenge also is,and I, cause I've talked to some
folks coming outta school, Ithink, I don't know who teaches
this, but I think the reality oftech kids coming outta school,
the salaries some of them areasking for are like, I'm like
where are you getting theseexpectations?

(53:22):
Right?
Like, you know, it's like you,you're 21, like when I was
coming outta school, you know,my expectation was I just wanna
work and gimme some type of wagethat isn't completely offensive.
And that's fine cuz I'm used toworking prior to this at, you
know, I worked at, you know, thelocal, a local rec center,
right?
But I was making like,

Pat (53:43):
Yeah.

Harry (53:43):
Eight bucks an hour.
So it's like anything above thatis great.
Right?
Just I'm starting my crim 21.
I don't need, I don't need muchmore than like beer money and
like, I'm not eating great food,so it's not a big deal.
But I don't know where you getlike I said, I get a lot of I
think I, I get a lot of kind ofgrads that are coming outta
school.
They're graduating the nextcouple months and they have this
expectation like, Hey, I'mlooking, I'm targeting, you

(54:06):
know, 70 and 80 grand.
And I'm like,

Pat (54:08):
Yeah.
Like,

Harry (54:10):
okay.
Like, look, I'm not gonna tellyou I, and look, it's not my
place to tell you what you'reworth or what you can get or
what you can't get.
You know, and there's, becauseI'm sure there's plenty of kids
that graduate that can getsomething like they, you know,
depending, which it's just Ithink I hear it a lot and I'm
just like, man, I don't knowwhere Some of those expectations
are, and maybe that's not theright thing to say because you

(54:32):
should, like, you, so on theflip side, someone will say,
look go.
If that's what you think you'reworth, target what you're worth.
Right.
So, and I don't disagree withany of that.
That's why I said I don't thinkthere's anything wrong or right
with that, but I do think comingoutta school, you do have to
today is gonna be a bit like, abit harder than it was two years
ago.
So that's, those are the folksthat are gonna have that are
gonna feel it.
But I think people that are laidoff, or people that have been in

(54:54):
the industry or whatever it is,I really don't think it's gonna
impact them that much.

Pat (54:59):
Yeah, I think I, I think that's right.
I think it, it's interesting,right?
You have people that are, wereat Facebook and Google and you
know, Twitter and, you know, allthese places, PlayStation,
things of that nature.
And then they, you know, I wouldassume they're given a severance
package to, to walk away and saybye, right?
And that's what gives them theability to take a few months off

(55:20):
and, you know, recharge theirbatteries and, you know, kind of
open their options and things ofthat nature.
But like, honestly, let's bereal with ourselves.
Like, if you have Facebook orGoogle or Twitter on your
resume, you're not waiting longfor a new job.
You're just not, that's just notthe world we live in.
I mean, come on.
Who wouldn't want somebody thatwas an ex, that was an ex
Facebook or a Googler at theirshop?

(55:40):
Bringing some of that flavor totheir.
To their new role that's just,that's, you know, to make it
seem like these poor peoplenever bounce on bats, you know,
bounce back on their feet again.
It's just stupid.
Like that makes no sense.
Like, come you know who you'retalking to here.
Come on.

Harry (55:55):
yeah.

Pat (55:57):
I find that interesting.

Harry (55:59):
Yeah.
And that's, it's funny cuz yousee on, I see that on LinkedIn
now that's like the new trend,right?
Where it's like, On theirtitles, they'll say like, X,
Facebook, X, Microsoft, andthey'll put all, they'll line'em
all up, X, Facebook, X,Microsoft X, Twitter.
And I've seen like some of thefolks locally around here, you
know, they'll say Comcast XComcast on there.

(56:20):
I don't really know if that'slike helping at all, but but
I've seen it, like I said, it'sjust a trend.
I've seen it I've seen Xis Xthat, so I'm like, you know, I
guess at the end of the day it'snot gonna hurt.
But but yeah, I have I've,that's the thing I've seen on
Face On not Facebook, on onLinkedIn a lot these days.

Pat (56:37):
Yeah.
I mean, not to rag on Comcast,but there was that video going
around a few years ago where theone guy taped the, in the the
Comcast installer sleeping onhis floor.
He was waiting so long on holdto get the mode activated.
Like the guy, the actualinstaller, like fell asleep and
the customer's home and he'slike, here's my Comcast guy.
He's like, you know, the phoneand all.
It's like, okay.

(56:59):
That kinda thing.
But no, I think, Kyle, you haveany other questions?
Anything you kind of wanna spitat him?

Kyle (57:04):
No, I mean, I mean, like I said pat said in the beginning,
we're just trying to help peoplebreak in, so any tips, tricks,
suggestions, anything you got?

Harry (57:12):
Yeah, I mean, look, just do what you love to do.
Make sure you find your passion.
You go do it.
Cuz at the end of the day,that's, you're gonna, people are
gonna see that.
You're gonna be really, you'regonna, you're gonna excel at
that.
And just go try talking topeople.
Meet.
Go out, go to events, whateverit might be.

(57:32):
Cuz you know, it's not what you,it's not what you know it's who
you know.
So, and when you meet the rightpeople and you can portray that
kind of passion for what youwant to do they'll give you a
shot.
I think that's, that would be mybiggest advice for people trying
to break in the industry.
People trying to move into,like, I, I get it all the time.
Well, how do I get intonetworking?

(57:54):
How do I get into security?
How do I get into this?
And it's like, well, what areyou trying to do to get into
that industry?
Right?
And it's like, well, I'm talkingabout it.
Well, okay, that's not gonna,you know, well, what else are
you doing to try to get intothat industry?
Right?
What, how are you trying to getinto networking?
Are you studying for somethingat this point?
Maybe you should be building ahome lab, playing, playing

(58:15):
around with some of that stuff.
You know, some people just, Ithink there's a thought process
of, Hey, I go get my Net Plus orCCNA and all of a sudden I'm
gonna get hired for a networkingjob tomorrow.
And I think it's like you, youknow, I think you gotta try to
put in a little bit more effortaround.
Well, if you really wanna getinto networking, but you have no
experience, well, you know, putsome, like why do you wanna get

(58:37):
into networking?
And it's just, there's not, youdon't really get a lot of solid
answers on that other thanright.
Maybe there's more money thereor, that's just what I think my
next part of my career is.
But, you know, I think whatwe'll see is you see a lot, I
talked a lot of folks are like,look, I, this is what I really
wanna do.
I don't have experience with it,but built my own home lab and I
did this and I can talk aboutall this other stuff.
Cause a lot of this stuff, youcan get freeware for a lot of

(58:59):
stuff these days are, you know,testing all out.
So that's what I would say, just

Pat (59:04):
Yeah,

Harry (59:05):
about it.
Make sure you enjoy it.
Right.
Because if you don't enjoy it,you're not gonna be in there for
a while.

Pat (59:10):
yeah.
It's a long, it's a long roadahead if you don't enjoy it.

Harry (59:13):
That's exactly right.

Pat (59:14):
And I think you would agree with this, Harry, from just you
being in the business and kindof where we're at, but you know,
it's a, what have you done forme lately?
Business, right.
I think it's you know, peopleonly remember you for your last,
you know, screw up if you will.
So, you know, you could do 10,10 things right without any
hiccups.
The last, you know, outage youcause or issue that you have or

(59:36):
whatever.
People, that's what peopleremember.
It's just it.
So you have to have tougher skinin that aspect of it.
I think some in just, I thinksome avenues in it Are a little
more business friendly thanothers.
I wanna say like, you know, for,and I'll say this cuz I'm biased
towards it.
I think the network portion ofit is the bottom of the hill.

(59:58):
Everyone always blames thenetwork until you prove that
it's not the network so just beaware of that.
You know, you've mentioned thehome labs.
We preach home lab here all thetime.
If you don't have experiencelike on paper, like in the
actual wor you know, businessworld, you know, a blog or
YouTube channel or something to,know, kind of, you know, do your

(01:00:18):
studies on, or I should say, youknow, prove that, you know,
you've done this X, Y, and z.
A blog is a perfect example.
Everybody and their mother has ablog, you know, nowadays.
So, you know, doing that, right?
So something you can document,Hey, I've done this and I've
learned this.
Because X, you know, that kindof thing.
So I think that's big.
So, internships is another bigone.
I don't know Harry, how many, ifyou do any internships or

(01:00:39):
whatnot, but that's a good agood way to kind of, you know,
get your feet wet into thebusiness world and kind of,
again, meet people, network andin the sense of not it,
networking, just network ingeneral with different people
and talking to everybody andtheir mother, I think that
helps.
It goes a long way.
Cuz again, we're, you know,we're six degrees from everybody
here in this industry.
It seems like a, you know, thatkind of thing.

(01:01:01):
So that's an interesting thing.
So, Harry, anything else youwanna touch on?
If not we'll get outta here andget outta your hair and get
ready for the Monday morning.
My brother

Harry (01:01:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
No, all good.
It was great chatting with youguys.
I mean, it's it's good hangingwith you guys, so, but no, it's
good time here.

Pat (01:01:17):
Harry, do you wanna give out your LinkedIn or socials or
anything like that?
Plug anything people can find

Harry (01:01:21):
really have, yeah, I don't really have a Twitter or
anything like that.
I have a LinkedIn.
Feel free to connect with me.
You can just search my name.
Harry Chen.
I think I, I don't even know myI can, I'll check in now.
What is my thing?
Oh, it's just Harry C.
Chen, so it's LinkedIn slashHarry C.
Chen.
But if you search my name, it'llpop up.
Feel free to connect with me.
You know, and look, just goingback to what you said, pat, it's

(01:01:43):
a small world out there, soconnect with everyone.
People are, in general, peopleare willing to help out.
You know, they're not, ifyou're, you, reach out looking
for some help, most people willat least give you a couple
minutes, give you some points inthe right direction in general.
So feel free to reach out to meif I can help out.
Happy to do so.

Pat (01:02:00):
Rock and roll.
Awesome.
Well, thanks Harry.
Really appreciate a couple ofminutes, man.
This has been great.
I'll also let everyone knowHarry is a major craft beer
drinker such as myself.
So, if we wanna talk about craftbeer next time Man, let's do it.
I love it.
Let's

Harry (01:02:13):
Yeah.
It doesn't sit as well as itused to when I was younger, so I
can't drink the eight or nine ata time, but still love them.

Pat (01:02:21):
All good, man.
All right, buddy.
Thanks for joining this week onthis episode of Breaking Down to
Bites.
Really appreciate everybodytaking the time and giving us an
hour or so, right around anhour, maybe a little more, but
till we get edit, it'll be justaround an hour or so.
Make sure to visit our website,breaking bys pod.io.
You can subscribe to the show onyour platform of choice.
All the links are up there.
Apple Podcast, Spotify, GooglePodcast Stitcher.

(01:02:44):
Or if you just need a plane, RSSfeed, that's cool too.
That's up there as well.
So you never miss a show.
Throw us a rating on ApplePodcast.
That's where the majority of ourlistens come from.
Our stats at Buzz Sprout tell usthat.
So shout out to Buzz Sprout forkeeping some really good stats
on us.
So, also another note, we justcrossed 7,000 listens as a show.
So appreciate every listener,every guest we've had, everybody

(01:03:08):
that's contributed, follow,start Twitter, you know,
everywhere.
So we really appreciateeverybody listening.
That's really cool.
So when we started this out,never thought we would like be
this far.
I think we, I thought we'd dolike 10 episodes.
We'd run out of content andthat'd be quitting, but, you
know, here we are.
So we really appreciateeverybody listening and getting
us over the 7,000 threshold.
So, I dunno, we made to do agiveaway, Kyle, for 10,000 and

(01:03:28):
that doesn't seem to be that faroff.
Thoughts about that in thefuture, maybe we'll get, do a
little giveaway action

Kyle (01:03:34):
I like what you're,

Pat (01:03:35):
10 K lessons.
So we'll see.
Stay tuned for that.
Te tell a friend about the show,right?
So again, we just talked aboutnetworking and talking to
everybody, you know, right?
If you like us, give us a shoutto a friend or two.
Obviously the more ears we canreach the better our numbers
look and the more people wehelp.
So that's cool too.
So again, all of our socials areout there.
They're in our in the show notesLinkedIn, Twitter Facebook.

(01:03:58):
There's a Discord server outthere for everyone to come and
hang out.
The invite to that is in theshow notes.
The survey's still hanging outthere.
So there's a, I think there'slike nine or 10 question
feedback survey.
So that basically just it'scompletely anonymous.
We don't know who you.
It just aggregates answers forus and gives us pretty pie
charts and percentages of justwhatever the questions are out

(01:04:20):
there.
So it just helps us refine theshow and tweak and tune.
So we always give you guys andgals what you want to hear from
us.
So again, Harry, thanks man.
Been an awesome time.
Really appreciate it.
We'll have you back for thatbeer discussion for sure.
And then, uh, that's iteverybody.
We'll see everybody again nextweek.
Thanks, everybody.

Kyle (01:04:37):
All right, so long.

Pat (01:04:38):
Let's see.