Leadership Unleashed: What's in a Leader?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pat (00:01):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to this week'sedition of breaking down the
bites.
We're back as usual.
I'm your host, Pat.
You can find me on Twitter atlayer eight packet.
That's the number eight.
If I Kyle on Twitter at Danithtwo 56, and also as usual, as
always find the show on Twitterat breaking bites pod.
We're pretty active on Twitter.

(00:22):
So come say hello.
If you don't mind, that would begreat.
Kyle is not here this week.
I kind of sprung it on lastminute to kind of verify he was
in for the show tonight and heactually cooked a pulled pork a
pork shoulder this afternoon, sohe's probably elbow deep in and
scarfing on that.
So, which is much better thanthe show anyway.

(00:42):
So it's all good.

Alex (00:43):
We're

Pat (00:44):
had it, my friend.
That's right.
So Alex is with me as usual.
We are back after a few weeks.
You know, the Cisco hangover andwhatnot and the summer is always
a busy time for everybody.
So trying to get as many showsas we can in here, but it does,
does the, you know, a week ortwo does go by as various things
are schedules and busy andwhatnot.
So I thought we'd get backtogether this week, talk a

(01:05):
little shop.
Alex, what's up, man?
How you doing?

Alex (01:09):
Yeah not a whole lot to report.
I know this last month or sowe've been kind of late on these
these recordings and podcasts.
So hopefully we can get back inroutine starting this week

Pat (01:22):
yeah, for sure.

Alex (01:24):
and I'm ready for it.

Pat (01:26):
Yeah, rock and roll.

Alex (01:28):
know.

Pat (01:29):
I I have a couple of feelers out for some guests.
So just waiting on them to sayyay or nay and setting up some
schedules.
So, that would be really cool.
But yeah we're definitely gotsome content coming out some
good good topics coming at yourway.
So.
Hang with us, stay with us for awhile and come say hello as
usual.
So it's all good there.
So this week and Alex, this wasyour kind of idea, which I

(01:51):
thought was a great one kind ofthrowing it back to a little bit
of our roots kind of aiming atthe.
Entry level person, folk tryingto break in, whatever.
But this kind of goes across theboard and relatable to pretty
much anybody whether you're juststarting out or whether you've
been in the industry 30 yearsand, you know, still kind of
churning, but I thought we'dtalk about leadership.

(02:12):
This week, kind of what thatlooks like at the various levels
again, entry junior, senior,yada, yada and then, you know,
kind of some of our good and badwhat to look for, some qualities
in a good leader, things of thatnature.
And then Alex, you've been onyour drive fighting that LA
traffic.
You've been doing some audiobooks on some leadership stuff
since you've been in themanagement role game for about

(02:33):
six or seven years now.
So, so kind of, kind of touch onall of that.
So I don't know when you wantto, I kind of set it up.
You want to start it off, Iguess, if you have something on

Alex (02:43):
Okay, and I might start off by asking a question, but I
thought it might be a good thingto start with what leadership
looks like at every differentstage of your career, because I
think some people think ofleadership and they think of
manager, director and above, andthat's not really the case
showing some leadership skillsat each level, it can't do

(03:05):
anything but help your career,and maybe it's not really
obvious, What you can actuallydo.
So having said that, I guesswe'll start with just junior
role.
I mean, fresh out of collegeand.
One, two years max, what doesleadership look like at that
level?
Or how can you show it?

(03:26):
Cause it's not like at thatpoint, you're going to be
talking to VPs and changingcompany policy.
So I'll throw it on you.
If you can't think of anything,I guess I'll pick it up.
But

Pat (03:39):
I'm quick on my feet.

Alex (03:40):
you go.
So if you think back to when youwere a junior.
What are some things that youthink that you did that kind of
showcase some leadership ormaybe now that you're in a
senior role, what do you seesometimes from, you know, the
junior level guys that make youthink, all right, these guys are
going somewhere.

Pat (03:58):
Yeah, I think those two things are very different.
I think if you're in a juniorrole now, this is traditionally
speaking, you know, out ofcollege, right?
So what you're.
What, 20, 22, 23, somewhere inthere, right?
So I think age has a big part todo with it as far as like the
maturity level, right?
Cause I'm a completely differentperson at 22 as I was, as I am

(04:20):
now, you know, oh man, almostpushing 40.
That feels weird.
Anyway.

Alex (04:25):
I'm not far behind.

Pat (04:27):
That's right.
So, so I think mindset comesinto play certainly with age and
just kind of grind in and, youknow, being in this industry,
right.
Everyone at 24 wants to set theworld on fire, right.
They have all these ideas andhow things should be and blah,
blah, blah.
And then they, you know, theyThey have diamonds in their eyes
and they're ready to, you know,be the next Bill Gates.
I, it just, and then theindustry chews on them a little

(04:48):
bit.
They go through variouspositions and they level out or
settle down, you know, if youwill, that kind of thing.
So from a junior perspective, Iwant to say my first real role
in it, I think was at the datacenter was that tier point even
though I didn't have a verytechnical.
role.

(05:08):
It was more of a body filling aseat kind of changing tapes and,
you know, smart hands, things ofthat nature.
It did kind of prepare me for,you know, what I wanted next,
right?
Which is always going to be inthe networking world.
That's just What I did and whatI liked the most, or I guess I
was, you know, I wasn't smartenough to do anything else at
that point.
So I figured, well, I'll go withthe network world.

(05:31):
The leadership for me is, youknow, you try to get.
hands on as, you know, as quickas possible.
And I don't mean like, Hey,here's a network guy who's going
to give you the reins for achange on a Friday night.
Right.
Or whatever.
I would just say from a nextlevel perspective, you're trying
to get that mentor, right.

(05:52):
You're trying to get them to belike, Oh, like, you know, Sit in
on this call or, Hey, I have aticket that, you know, you want
to, you know, look over myshoulder, shoulder surf with me
just to kind of get a feel of,you know, thought process from,
okay, this is the problem starthere and kind of work your way
in or out, depending on whichway that engineer likes to
troubleshoot some like to gofrom the land outbound and some

(06:15):
like to go from the landinbound.
It just depends on who you're,who your mentor is and who
you're shadowing.
But.
I would always, I think from ajunior perspective, I think it's
more of about a mental capacityor a mental, it's a mentality
versus, yeah, this person'sready for a leadership role
because he's good technically,because that doesn't always

(06:36):
translate, right?
You always see like, okay, thisguy has been a technical person
for 10 years and they, like,they throw them into management
and it's a completely different.
ballgame.
So I think from a juniorperspective, it's, he's looking
for those next things.
He's looking to shadow people.
He's looking to, you know, dothis I's and cross his T's.
And if you give him something inhis wheelhouse, he's going to do

(06:58):
it and he's going to do itright.
He's going to, you know, andwhatever he has questions on,
he's going to ask the rightthings before pushing buttons or
whatever that case may be.
You know, so I think it's, Ithink it's surrounded around not
necessarily the technical skill,it's more of he's doing the
other things the right wayfirst.

(07:18):
And then the technical comesafter that, if that makes sense.

Alex (07:23):
Okay, yeah, I can understand that.
Anything else you want to add tothat or want me to give my
thoughts at the junior level?

Pat (07:31):
I think no, I think that was it.
Like I said, I don't I don'tneed the junior guy to be
trailblazing technical.
Right.
It's just, you know, can hefollow directions?
Does he do things the right way?
Does he come to me with the samequestion over and over?
That's a big pet peeve for me,by the way, I'm going to be full
disclosure.
Cause I've had people come to meand ask the same questions every

(07:52):
couple of weeks, and it's justlike, don't you write anything
down?
Like, this is the same problemyou had two weeks ago.
Like apply it and like soak theknowledge in instead of just
trying to solve the problem forthat.
day or that fire.
You know, the whole idea is toget the knowledge.
So then you don't have to cometo me the next time when it's
similar or the same problem, youknow, that sort of thing.

(08:12):
So I find that is more to me.
That is more.
You're ready for either a thebig, you know, your next
technical role or be leadershipwise.
You can follow directionsoutside the technical bubble.

Alex (08:25):
Gotcha.
Well, I think that's a goodsegue into 1 of the things that
I was going to mention, andwe'll talk about this probably
later in the podcast, becauseyou did mention that I was
listening to quite a few audiobooks.
So 1 of those books that I waslistening to was good leaders
ask great questions.
So echoing what you were saying,if you're asking the same

(08:45):
question over and over again, Idon't think you're asking great
questions.
But yeah, I think that'simportant.
That shows.
A desire to understand why,which is a question that I think
all leaders should understand.
The other thing that I willsuggest that anyone at a junior
level does, cuz this, I feellike if you wanna be the best

(09:06):
leader it might sound a bitcounterintuitive, but leaders
actually, I feel like turn into.
Servant roles, which hasprobably a negative connotation
to it.
But the idea is that more of aleader you are, the more your
mentality will change from whatcan I do to what can I can, what
I can do for others.

(09:27):
So at a junior level, I thinkone of the best things you can
possibly do is if you seeopportunities for challenging
tasks or things that might beabove your level that maybe mid
level people would rather notdo.
If you're willing to kind oftake on some of that work and
ask for assistance I thinkthey'll probably be more than

(09:51):
happy to tell you how to dosomething if it gets it off
their plate.
Not only does that give you moreexperience, which is beneficial
but I think that starts thiswhole leadership concept that
I'll probably talk on more andmore, which is this idea of.
Constantly trying to help othersand constantly trying to bring
up other people, because ifyou're taking something away
from them that they don't needto do, so they can focus on

(10:13):
things that are much morerelevant to that type of level,
nothing but good things canhappen from that.
I think that's pretty much whatI'll add to that.
I know what you mentioned wasyou know, at the junior level, I
don't think you're quite at thelevel where you want to start
really raising your voice andsaying this is how we should do

(10:34):
things.
You're probably not at thatlevel yet.
And it's probably not a greatidea to do that.
So I think I'm willing to cut itat that point.
So I guess in summary seek tohelp others.
especially like higher levels ofyou, mid level seniors by taking
on challenging tasks andlearning to ask great questions

(10:57):
and, you know, learning fromthose questions and answers that
you get.

Pat (11:02):
I think that's a good one.
I think that's a pretty solidadvice there from you.
Fine, sir.
What are we, what are youthinking?
Like, I don't know.
Do you want to do senior or teamlead stuff first from a.
Perspective.
I don't know which one comesfirst.
I guess it depends on companystructure.

Alex (11:16):
Yeah, I would even go as far as to say, let's say we'll
lump mid level senior levelinto, so, so we're talking more
like software engineer, networkengineer two, or.
Senior level three, somethinglike that.
Um, so if I'm going to start, Ithink at this point, let's say

(11:37):
you have five years experiencenow.
So now you've got some realworld experience.
You probably understand.
And let's say you have fiveyears experience at the same
company, which is even.
Even better because now youunderstand the environment
you're working in now.
I think this is at the pointwhere Okay, you're still not the
guy running the show, but you'vegot to start giving your input

(12:03):
this is where you should be moreinterested in why things are
done the way they are and Ithink you still might need to
know your place a little bit,but this is where I feel like
you can respectively startasking Your manager or your
senior level engineers, why aparticular design was put in
place, or even if you have.

(12:25):
Some thoughts on something thatyou think should be done a
little better, and I'm notexpecting someone to go up and
say, Hey, this isn't right.
We should do it this way.
That's not the way to do it.
But, you know, question it.
Like, is there a reason why wedidn't do X, Y, Z, and maybe
that can lead to a conversationwhere maybe you were wrong.
And now you understand whythings were done a certain way,
which is certainly good.

(12:46):
Or I think you could turn intosomething where they say, Oh,
yeah, that is a good idea.
And let's talk it through.
Thank you.
So there's more you can do, butI'll stop there and let you
chime in with your thoughts onthat and anything else you can
think of at the mid level.

Pat (13:02):
Yeah I think that's good.
I think there is truth there to,you know, the mid level.
And to be honest with you, youknow, if you're there five years
at a company, that's great.
It's just, it's very rare thesedays to be that long with
somewhere you know, wink, nudge,nudge for those that know me,

(13:22):
but you know, Hey, more power toyou and people do it.
And that's great.
There's nothing wrong with that,you know, but yeah I think it
does bode well for that person.
If they've been there, that.
Long and say, Hey, why are wedoing this way?
Because to me, I see a lot ofpeople that come into a place
and then like fresh, like withinthe first six months, want to

(13:46):
change all this stuff.
And it's like, you're not.
You're not the boss, you're notthis, like, and they want to
change things without knowingwhy they were done that way in
the first place, right?
And there's many factors tothat, right?
There's many factors as far aslike, okay, you know, we didn't
have the money to upgrade that.
You know, ASA to, or the FTD toa bigger box.

(14:07):
But we needed X in the shortterm.
So we bought another FTD to fitthat need or whatever, right.
Scaling issues you know,business needs, things of that
nature.
So, but a lot of people come inand be like, Oh, we're going to
do this because I say, so it'slike, well then, okay, you want
to rip that bandaid off, but youdon't know what else is behind
that.
Band Aid, I mean, like behindthat band, it could be a flesh

(14:28):
wound and you just have no idea.
But they do want to try toreinvent the wheel you know, for
various reasons.
So yeah, I think the mid levelguy is a, you know, is a perfect
time to sort of dip your toes inthat water to say, Hey, we've
been doing this for this manyyears, whether it, you know,
whether it's.

(14:48):
Been done like this on purpose,whether there was just higher
priorities in the budget to doX, Y, and Z.
Why don't we try for next budgetcycle to do X and do X because
trying to solve for Y whatever.
So I think that's a good placeto kind of start.
I think it's good to to again,you know, try not to make those

(15:10):
decisions in a vacuum, because Ithink a lot of people do that
too.
I think people get hung up ontitles.
Today we're like, Oh, I can't dothat because he's a senior and
I'm only a junior or he's a teamlead.
He's not going to go for that.
But if you have your, if youhave your, you know, sort of
ducks in a row, excuse the badpun, you know, and make a legit.

(15:31):
Business need or a businessargument out of it.
I think it holds weights.
I think that's where youformulate the mid level person
is the, is where you sort offormulate your, okay, I'm not
focusing so much on technical.
I mean, you are, you're swimmingin the technical soup day in and
day out, but you also, you'realso like, Hey, there's a shiny
object over here.
It's called the business.

(15:51):
And you start to like, realizethat you.
There's a purpose to all of thiscrazy technical stuff is to
serve the business, which thenin turn, you know, serves your
paycheck.
So I think the mid level personis where you start to really see
things from a businessperspective.
And say, okay, instead of justthrowing money at the newest

(16:13):
technology, what does itactually, what does that
technology do?
To help the business get to thatnext level and with those
questions, then to say, okay,why was it done this way in
order to do this next, whatever,I'm just going to take Cisco DNA
center as an example to to doDNA center.

(16:33):
Why was the, why was X.
Done this way.
And if we can put in DNA centerand fix X, then that's a bonus,
right?
That sort of thing.
So I think the mid levels whereyou sort of blend the technical
and the business needs together,and then when you get to that
senior level, it's even more sofrom the business perspective
and your hands are a little lesstechnical, if you will, you're

(16:55):
letting the people quote unquotebelow you kind of do their thing
and be the smart people andyou're sort of just driving the
bus, right?
If that, if I could use that.
Analogy, so that's just mythought on the mid range folk

Alex (17:10):
All right.
Yeah.
And maybe that's something weshould have talked about at the
junior level too.
Cause I think it is talkingabout how focused your work is
changes as you move fromdifferent levels.
So if we talk about the juniorlevel, I think you're kind of
focused on tasks, you know,like.
You need to accomplish this midlevel.
Now the scope is bigger now.

(17:32):
It's like, all right, maybeyou're, you own a project, you
know, like where we'renetworking guys.
I'll use networking analogies,junior level, put in a firewall
rule.
You don't need to know why youput in a firewall rule on
someone told you to do it, youput in that firewall, you know,
mid level.
Hey, let's let's put an entirefirewall.

(17:53):
All right.
And maybe now you're starting totalk about the zone structure.
Now you're questioning whetherfirewall rules should be in
place and yeah.
So task now we're biggerprojects and I'll save the
senior level, but I think I cancontinue with this type of
analogy or this type of to seehow your scope changes as you go

(18:13):
on.

Pat (18:14):
And I must I must say here.
We're at a break This is thefirst time this has ever
happened on this show.
Kyle is here.
He's he's jumped in mid show Ifeel like I'm pausing a concert
right now to get the guy thatwas hurt on the floor mosh
pitting I got to stop theconcert and point attention to
the guy that's hurt on thefloor.
Hey Kyle.
What's up, man?

Kyle (18:34):
You know, better late than never, I guess.
So here we

Pat (18:37):
That's it.
That's it.
You got it.
Now I'm happy to have you, man,talking some leadership.
So this is the first on thisshow, a mid coming guests.
So, or I should say a mid cominghost, really guest host,
whatever.
I don't, whatever it is, what itis.
So this we're going on the flyand that's what keeps this show
fresh.
So I love it.
So that's all good, man.
It's all good.
So, yeah, I guess from theleadership perspective, again,

(19:00):
the mid, you know, starting toask those questions, starting to
blend the The business and thetech talk sort of together and
kind of making them one giant,you know, big happy family from
a senior perspective or a teamlead perspective.
Alex, what are you thinking froma, what does leadership look
like there?
You starting to creep into, youknow, try to take that next step
is like, all right, can I cut itas a manager?

(19:20):
Like, what does that look like?

Alex (19:22):
Well, certainly if you have a team lead, cause I feel
like senior network engineer, orI say network and senior
engineer and team lead, I,they're a little bit different.
I feel like team lead, someonehas designated you as the
obvious choice to become managerat some point.
So at both levels, especiallyteam lead, I feel like at this
point, now your mentality ischanging a little bit.

(19:43):
And I talked about it at thejunior level about the idea of
you're going to be focused onpeople more so now.
So now, and your scope is biggerbecause both at the mid level
and the junior level, we talkedabout the scope increasing.
So now the, at the senior teamlead, I still feel like you're.
Probably you're stillresponsible for projects.

(20:04):
You probably responsible for themore complicated ones.
I think this is where you'regoing to start doing a lot more
social engineering at thispoint, you're going to be a lot
more involved with meetings withother department heads.
And that just inherently turnsinto having a bigger voice and
just.
The direction that you're goingto go with the company, at least

(20:25):
technically.
And this is probably also thefirst time where you're
practically formally in chargeof people, you know, especially
as a team lead.
So maybe in an org chart, theydon't directly report to you,
but they're coming to you.
I mean, well, you're kind oflike this middleman proxy

(20:46):
between.
The lower engineers and theactual manager, they're coming
to you 1st, even if it's justtechnical, you know, they're not
asking.
Hey, do I need a day off?
But even from a technical pointof view, if they're coming to
you, at least that gives youkind of an experience of kind of
having people under your wingformally and.

(21:06):
Your success, at least somewhatis going to be dictated by the
success of the other people onyour team.
So when I look at the best teamleads or senior engineers,
they're bringing the juniors inthe mid levels up.
Like they're the ones whiteboardand making sure these guys know
what they're doing, they're notmaking the same mistakes over
and over again, and if they'retaking those initiatives, I

(21:28):
think they're showing, Hey, thisis even more and more leadership
potential there.
And I mean, that's a role thatI've taken on as a senior.
Like, you know, that I likedteaching people.
So I like to see that more andmore.
And I said it earlier, I'll sayit again, but yeah, the idea
that the success of the peopleunderneath you and level that

(21:50):
dictates your success.
And that's a completelydifferent change.
Whereas, you know, mid level andjunior, you know, what Bob does
really doesn't impact you atteam lead.
It does at least to a

Pat (22:04):
It does.
Yeah, I would agree.
I would also say that, you know,part of that social engineering
aspect of it is, you know, whensomething breaks, people come
right to you and say, you know,what the F

Alex (22:16):
You're kind of like the face of the team at this point.

Pat (22:18):
right.

Alex (22:19):
people know your name and they associate you with.
Software engineering, DevOps,network, whatever you happen to
be.

Pat (22:25):
Yeah, indeed.
You're always the, you're alwaysthe first one to know about
something breaks and then yourname is always mud until it's
fixed.
That's just the way it goes.
At

Alex (22:33):
probably calling you first.
It's just like, Oh, Hey, I gotto talk to the team lead.
What's going on guys.

Pat (22:38):
yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I feel like that too.
I feel like again, you're inmore meetings.
You're letting those those folksunderneath you kind of, you
know, work on the mechanics ofthe bus and you're basically
driving it.
They come to you when they're atsticking points, right?
Say, Hey, I don't know how to dothis.
Or, Hey, what do you think aboutthis design?
You know, should I put it inthis way versus that way?
And then you kind of give yourpros and cons to it, which is

(23:00):
great.
You know, but, and then at thesame time, I think you need to
look to your leadership to say,okay, look, you know, is it.
Is it two years?
Is it three years?
Is it?
What does that time frame looklike to actually slap a manager
title on me?
And then I think it's up to themto be like, you know, to kind of
nurture you and bring you along.
It's just, you know, sometimesit happens, sometimes it

(23:22):
doesn't.
I've been at both places.
But it's just, you know, but youknow, people are coming to you
and then you need to go topeople.
And then basically say, look,you know, what's a timestamp on
this?
You know, do you have a rough,you know, dart on a dartboard
sort of thing?
And obviously there's changesthat can be made there, right?
So, you know, if you buy acompany that doubles your

(23:43):
company total, you know, in sizeovernight, then I, that.
That's a good sign, right?
That sort of thing.
You're going to need more bodiesand whatnot, or I should say
more definitive voices.
But yeah you're, again, you'rejust kind of looking for that
timeframe of like, look, youknow, team lead, people are
coming to me.
I'm bringing them along, youknow, nurturing them, you know,
be in there, you know, be intheir escalation point, blah,

(24:06):
blah, blah.
But there's also gotta be a, youknow, there's also gotta be a
piece of cheese at the end ofyour maze as well to try to do
that.

Alex (24:14):
I'll say that rather than putting a timestamp on it I
would push on your manager.
Whoever you report to, to giveyou what you need to accomplish
or what you need to see.
So I don't want some arbitrary

Pat (24:27):
Good point

Alex (24:27):
what, cause I think that'll do two things.
One, if you, if they give you adate, I feel like they could
push that date back saying, Hey,it wasn't in the budget or I
feel like that can get, I cankeep getting pushed back without
much to say, but if you ask themwhat you need to accomplish, I
think that does two things.
We want to get your manager toreally answer that question.
Cause I don't know if theyalways know that.

(24:47):
So that'll get them thinkingabout what do I really need to
see from you?
And maybe it's eye opening to,And I think it should, that'll
benefit you.
I mean, that'll actually giveyou things you can work on.
Whereas a date, maybe you'rejust kind of counting down the
days or maybe it's like, Ididn't even realize I really
should be doing X, Y, and Z.
And I think a good manager willhelp you.

(25:07):
And I definitely think that youshould go to your manager.
Like you mentioned, I feel likeif you don't, you're going to be
your biggest proponent.
You have to kind of push foryourself a little bit.
So, I think that is good advicethere.
But.
I mean, going back a little bit,part of the conversation is what
you can do to kind of stand out.

(25:28):
So in addition to just askingfor it what do you think is
fundamentally changing at thisrole?
We talked about people areunderneath you they're coming to
you.
I think at this point, goingback to what I mentioned for
juniors and mid levels, thescope is increasing.
I feel like at a team lead, nowyou're at the point where you're
really putting your stamp on thecompany.

(25:51):
This is where I feel like youcan lead.
A real big initiative.
So we talked about junior doinga firewall rule.
Mid level firewall project justreplacing firewalls or just
where I feel like senior levelradical transition.

(26:12):
Hey, I want to transition to netautomation at this point.
We need to get more focused onthat automation or something
like that, where it's a real bigundertaking with lots of
components.
And this is kind of where theteam lead is kind of stepping in
and really driving a biginitiative like that.
It's going to like fundamentallychange the team.

Pat (26:29):
Yeah.
I would agree.

Alex (26:30):
That's what I would like to see.

Pat (26:33):
yeah, I would agree.
I would think a project, a majorproject, like even switching
vendors, right?
If you've been with a

Alex (26:40):
vendors.

Pat (26:41):
for doing X, right?
And then you're going to anothervendor to do the same thing,
right?
Like a firewall swap, right?
You know, that kind of thinggoing from one vendor to
another.
That's a big one because he'sthe whole company.
Rides through that.
So, but I think even at the teamlead level, I think the less
that your name is in thesemeetings, the better, because

(27:04):
that means you're doing your jobcorrectly and nobody notices.
Like that's the biggest thingfor me.
I just think, you know, pullingoff massive projects like that
was very little hiccups.
I'm not saying it's easy or thatthere will be hiccups cause
there, there definitely will be.
It just depends on the size ofthe hiccup.
That you're going to do becauseagain, when you start changing
things at that fundamental levelyou're ripping off multiple band

(27:28):
aids at once or things thatpeople that are there now may
not even be privy to or why itwas done that way again, you
know, done that way where thebodies are buried and all of a
sudden you yank out a firewalland put a new one in, you think
you have everything right.
And somebody goes, Oh, we can'tdo this.
And this is a major.
It's a major showstopper and yougo, Oh shit.
You know, that kind of thing.
So then there's calls around it,P ones and the whole deal.

(27:50):
And you're like, Oh man, this isnot a good for the team.
So I think if you can pull offprojects with very little
disruption or very little, youknow.
Your name and in other businessplayers, mouths, if you will
cause the only reason they'd betalking about you cause it's
broke, right?
So they don't talk about you ifit goes well.
So that's kinda, I think that'sa major feather in folks caps.

(28:14):
If you can do projects withoutvery little You know, with, I
should say with very littledisruption and you basically
transform things without peopleeven, it's almost like you want
to work in shadows, you know,like in the shadows because
people don't know who you are.
And the only reason the phonerings is because if something
breaks, right, that sort ofthing.
So I think that shows a bigpiece of you're ready for that

(28:35):
next step.
If you could do projects sortof, you know, in secrecy, quote
unquote,

Alex (28:40):
Okay.
And I'll flip that comment alittle bit and say that it might
be even more telling how wellthey're showing their leadership
skills based on how they actwhen things don't go correctly.
Cause I feel like again, ifwe're going through the levels
of the junior level engineer, ifthey don't, if they do something
incorrectly and it causes anissue.

(29:02):
The onus is probablydocumentation or they weren't
trained properly.
The onus probably doesn't go onthe junior engineer in most
cases.
Mid level I think that's moremaybe not something that would
be documented and maybe that'snot the excuse, but I think it's
like they get a pass on it youknow, it.

(29:23):
Hey, learn from your mistake andyou know, mistakes happen.
It's okay.
Senior level.
You're like, you need toanticipate mistakes a little bit
more.
Not to say that they still don'thappen.
But it's like, Hey you should bepretty aware of the risks of
this.
If you did this and it caused anoutage and you talk to other
senior level engineers andyou're like, you probably should
have known this was apossibility.

(29:46):
I think you get a lot less slackfor issues at this level.
And I think if you're showinggood leadership skills, there's
a few things that you have tocome out of any, anytime you
have a huge issue is you have tohave a plan for it not to happen
again.
And I think you have toremediate it.
So I feel like in the past whenI've seen really good senior

(30:09):
level engineers, they'veidentified what went wrong.
They immediately told me whatwent wrong.
They owned up to it right away.
That's another good leadershipskill.
They don't beat around the bush.
They're like, there's an issue.
They're like five seconds later.
That's on me.
I'm working on it.
I'll get back to you.
And they come up out of thesituation better where I feel
like mid levels and juniors,they might not take that
initiative.

(30:29):
Maybe they should and that wouldbe a great show of leadership,
but I feel like at this level,it should be expected.
And if you're not doing it, thennot showing you're ready for the
next level.

Pat (30:40):
Agreed.
Kyle, you've had a couplevarious pieces of leadership
changes where you're at in theeducation sector.
You got anything to throw intothis conversation?

Kyle (30:48):
Yeah, I mean, one thing that I've always, at least from
the different levels that I'vebeen on, is the praise that you
get from somebody above you.
I mean, that really goes a longway.
But now at the same time, youknow, the slap on the wrist that
hurts just as bad.
So,

Pat (31:03):
heavy handed.

Kyle (31:03):
yeah,

Pat (31:04):
right.

Kyle (31:05):
But I was thinking about when you guys were talking
timelines, not really being, youknow, arbitrary number
throughout their kind of deal.
How do you feel aboutmilestones?
Like breaking up the project ina chunks of like meeting this
part of a project to get to thenext step.

Alex (31:27):
Well, I think I was going to touch on that probably a
little bit more when we get tomanagement,

Kyle (31:31):
Okay.

Alex (31:32):
which would be the next level.
So I won't go into it too

Kyle (31:35):
Okay.

Alex (31:36):
but I feel like a manager now you're fully on, you're
probably not nearly as technicalanymore.
I mean, you may know it, butyou're not hands on.
I feel like at this point,obviously the success of your
team is how your success isdictated and doing things like
making sure the end goal isobvious.
And if it's a six month end goaland milestones and sprints, this

(32:00):
is where the agile methodologycomes into play.
And I think those giving peoplewins to keep them on track is
really important.
And I feel like there's just avery select few people that can
deal with really long termprojects and really see it.
To completion, and those areprobably the people that should
be managers anyway, and weshouldn't expect them to be at
that level yet.

(32:22):
But again, we can talk about

Kyle (32:23):
Right, right, right.

Alex (32:24):
if we're done with the senior level, I can talk about
more of that.
But, um,

Pat (32:31):
a good point.

Alex (32:32):
well, since you joined a little late, you're any thoughts
on how you see leadership alittle bit differently from
junior mid level to senior andbecause we kind of touched on
what we kind of feel like what ajunior level can.
Do to kind of show leadership.
It might be a little bubble ofwhat's expected at junior and so
on for mid level and so on forsenior.
So you have any thoughts, thingsthat you've seen, things that

(32:55):
you've done?

Kyle (32:56):
I mean, I've seen, and I guess have gone from a junior to
a senior just over time doingthe things having people under
me and then kinda gettingrecognized for skills and
whatnot and getting promoted,that kind of deal.
Switching jobs, you know, andshowing the The work ethic and

(33:17):
whatnot to get there.
Now it's just, you know, team oftwo of us.
So it's my boss and I, so Idon't really have anybody under
me.

Alex (33:27):
So when you were just at a junior level, is there anything
you can think of it you weredoing that kind of maybe put you
ahead?
Leadership wise, kind of got youto the next level?
I don't want you to put you onthe spot.
Maybe it's not.

Kyle (33:44):
probably just like always learning being the first person
to kind of stand up to like,I'll do that, I'll take that on.
I'll do whatever project or nextthing is you know, and it was
the good with the bad, you know,definitely.
Might've jumped into things alittle too overzealous kind of
deal like that.
And then like, I might'vescrewed that up, but you know,

(34:04):
you learn from these kinds ofthings and a little bit of
growing pains.
But I think like you said tokind of be able to just own up
to it and kind of graciously belike, yeah, that was me, but
here's some solutions.
Here's what I learned.
That went a long way too.

Pat (34:19):
There you go.
There you go.

Alex (34:23):
All right.

Pat (34:23):
Good recap there.
So I guess management, I guess,Alex, you're going to kind of
drive.
Most of this.

Alex (34:30):
Right.
We won't go into anything abovemanager.
We'll just say straight upmanagement, management, upper
management, and you get thewhole idea.
So what's fundamentallydifferent.
So I already touched on it and.
Obviously at this point, you'reprobably not very hands on.
Although surprisingly in my lastfew jobs I've noticed that
managers are more hands on thanI thought.

(34:51):
But even so, yeah, I said itjust a little bit ago.
The success, your success isdictated by the success of the
people that you lead.
And as a manager, that's, Ithink that's the fundamental
change that has to happen.
And to show that you're a goodleader, To do that well is to

(35:14):
make other people succeed in anyway that you can.
And I feel like we can probablyspend hours talking about what
that means, but I guess I'lltalk about a few, cause we were
touching on it earlier.
I feel like you have to setclear examples.
Lead by example.
So if you want your team to I'mtrying to think of a great

(35:35):
example.
If you want your team to be ontime with delivering things, it
might sound simple, but youshouldn't be if they ask you for
something and you tell themyou're going to do it next day,
you shouldn't do it 3 dayslater.
So setting an example like that,I think is important.
We can also go on a big tangenttalking about things like.

(35:57):
Agile methodologies and thingslike sprints.
But I think in summary, you canjust say that a manager should
set clear objectives.
I think there's really nothingworse than not knowing what
you're supposed to do as anengineer.
Like what's the end goal?
Why?
And I think that's what it is.

(36:17):
So you're not sure what you'regoing to do.
And even what's worse is youthink, you know, what you have
to do.
And then to find out that it'snot.
What you were supposed to do,

Pat (36:24):
bad.
Oh God.
It's so bad.

Alex (36:27):
And I feel like that's, if that's the case, that is 100% of
the manager.
You have to make sure not onlythat the objectives are clear,
what you want is clear, but thatthey understand it.
If it's clear to you, it doesn'tmean it's clear to everybody
else.
And yeah, that's something thatI feel like you have to do clear
objectives.
When Kyle talked aboutmilestones, I like the idea of

(36:48):
turning projects.
Especially long ones intomanageable chunks, I think, and
I think that's kind of where theworld's going.
This whole idea of just cost andimprovement those pipelines,
constant improvement pipelines.
Everyone's all about that now.
And I think it makes the mostsense and people want to be
recognized and they want to knowthat they're making progress.

(37:09):
So if you can take a big projectand turn into.
I use two week chunks in my inmy job today and very clear
tasks and milestones tocomplete.
And I think it's just, it's away to celebrate success.
It's a way to understand if aproject is getting behind well
before the time that, you know,it's actually due.

(37:30):
And I think it bodes well forjust beyond the immediate team.
You know, you can show progresswithout having a final product
pretty easily when you do thingslike that.
And I won't take up all thetime.
I can

Pat (37:43):
No, this is good.

Alex (37:44):
talk about this a little bit more, but even if you guys
aren't in management rolestoday, you've certainly had
managers.
So, what are your thoughtswithout getting yourselves in
trouble?
So maybe focus on a few yearsback, maybe what are some of the
things that stood out to you asmanagers showing excellent

(38:04):
leadership skills?
What are the things thatresonated with you?

Pat (38:09):
Go ahead, Kyle.
What do you got?

Kyle (38:10):
right.
One of the things that always, Idunno if it's a morale boost or
if it's just whatever, but it'slike having a manager that'll
get in the muck with you, youknow, they're not above it.
They're not too good for it.
They're not like, like, Hey,this is going to suck.
Let's do it.

(38:31):
And that was always.
You know what I mean?
Like, especially if it'ssomething, maybe it's your first
time doing it or something likethat.
And you're like, ah, this isgoing to suck.
And they're like, all right,we'll do it together.
And they hop in there with you.
Amazing.

Alex (38:44):
Okay.
Yeah.
What are your thoughts?
Pat?

Pat (38:48):
Yeah, I would say that's a big one.
I've had one or two that really.
Can, you know, can kind of getin the, into the bits and bytes,
if you will depending on whatthe issue is I've had quite a
few of them that, that can'tjust cause they didn't
understand what I did day today, but there was one or two
that stick out that, that canreally That can really kind of,

(39:09):
you know, go toe to toe for whatI'm doing.
The other thing too, is I thinka good leader from, or, you
know, leadership perspective is,you know, and again, it kind of
comes back to, you know, thepeople above you are supposed to
quote unquote, look out for you.
Now, what, you know, a lot ofplaces it doesn't happen, but
there's been one or two placesthat.

(39:30):
That it is happening, you know,that, that did happen for me.
I also think that they shoulddefinitely give praise to the
team where it's due, but notjust within the team walls.
I think it needs to happeneither at their level or.
The level above them, because Ithink the technical teams sort

(39:51):
of get lost in the sauce sort ofthing to, to various degrees.
I think people forget aboutvarious it teams just cause
things work and they forget theykind of exist.
So when a big project does gowell, or when an outage happens
outside of.
You know, a human error, youknow, and they got it fixed

(40:12):
within a decent time, you know,whatever, then, you know, then I
think praise needs to be thereat the, that the director level
or whatever, however yourcompany structures, I think it
needs to be there and not just,Hey, good job guys.
And, you know, kind of liveswithin the team walls and just
the morale of that, just.
Yeah we know we're a good team.
Like, you know, who you'reworking with day in and day out,

(40:34):
you know, if you can count on acolleague or not to kind of get
the job done we kind of knowwhat we're about.
We need other people to knowwhat we're about and kind of
give that pat on the back orthat at a boy, you know, kind of
thing outside of our walls.
So I think the best, I think oneof the.
Better leadership qualities ishaving your boss or your direct

(40:55):
report.
Speak your team in a good lightat their level or above,
depending on what the topic is.

Alex (41:04):
Yeah.
And I made the comment beforewhere it would be difficult for
me to join a company where thetech work isn't product that
makes the company money.
So what I mean by that is when Iworked at PlayStation and work
at Disney streaming now thetechnical people are the people
that make the product that makesthe money, at least.

(41:25):
With Disney streaming, obviouslythe engineers that keep the
platform up are making money atPlayStation, the same deal where
you guys work in education andfinancials, or I think that's
really stressing the need tokind of provide recognition
beyond the team, because you canget lost, I feel like, because
at that point, you know, youprobably only get notified or

(41:49):
probably only get some type ofmentioned when there's an issue.
Cause then.
Everyone knows who you are, butit's probably,

Pat (41:56):
Yeah.

Alex (41:57):
In the same way that educate you, like, you know,
Hey, we can't do our classworkor, Hey our users can't log into
our banking platform or whateverit might be.
And yeah, I, and think that's inthose particular situations, I
think it's really importantthat, right.
Your credit, your recognitionexpands past the team.

(42:18):
So good point there.

Pat (42:20):
I think that's a good one.
If I could just kind of touch onthat and then we'll move on to
the next topic, but I think Ithink what you said about having
technology drive, what.
The business is selling.
I think that's a big one,especially in the tech industry,
because we're all, we all havethat mindset that we're just
kind of nerds at heart and wewant things to work, that we

(42:41):
want to work in cool places andbe that sort of shining light.
If you will I think evolve waskind of like that for us, Alex,
they sold.
Technology, right?
They were a avoid platform.
So things that we did matter,right?
That kind of thing.
We were kind of the pillars ofthat, you know, we, as a
collective but, you know, wewere the pillars of that

(43:01):
company.
And I think that makes I thinkit makes it a little, I think
the morale is the differencemaker there.
And I've worked at some placesthat we didn't like tech really
didn't do any of.
That like, it didn't drive thebusiness forward.
It was there to sort of protectwhat the business was and not
drive it or innovate it forward.
I think that definitely makes adifference as far as mindset or

(43:25):
morale, you know, things of thatnature.
And the one thing I that what Imentioned earlier about the, you
know, the company justprotecting what the company had
at that same company.
They had they had almost like aself, portal kind of thing where
like, if you worked withsomebody and you thought
somebody did a good job in youreyes, blah, blah, blah, you gave

(43:46):
them like a thumbs up or a oneup kind of thing.
And then as you know, you got toa certain number of those
recognitions or shout outs,whatever to call them, then you
were, you know, then you gotlike an Amazon gift card or, you
know, whatever, like you couldspend your quote unquote points
on.
Whatever, you know, however farup the ladder you want to go
and, you know, spend it on, youknow, that kind of thing.

(44:07):
So there was like almost like aself recognition system within
that company to really kind ofgive each other kudos, if you
will and rather than waiting formanagement to do it or, you
know, whatever.
So I thought that was kind ofcool too.
It was almost like a selfgoverning, you know.
Hey, we take care of our own.
I can give you kudos because youworked on that project last

(44:28):
week, or, you know, I had anissue and you figured it out
pretty quickly.
Here's a kudos.
And then I, you know, Ibasically turned those kudos
into 25 gift card, Amazon or,you know, whatever that kind of
thing.
So there's different things youcan do from a morale
perspective.
And, you know, if you're notgoing to get it from management
above you, then it's a neat wayto kind of have like a self

(44:48):
sustaining.
System to kind of, you know,treat your own kind of thing.
So I thought that was, I thoughtthat was neat.
So I always enjoyed that pieceof that.
The company that, you know, whatthey had set up there, the
system.
So that was cool.
So anyway, I thought I'd throwthat out there that it does make
a difference that you know, whatyou're working on or the
business that you're serving,you have to be interested in it,
at least to some degree or elsethat it kind of just becomes

(45:12):
this, you're just a cog in awheel and you're just kind of
slapping away day in and dayout.
And it's like, Oh, this is, youknow, it's kind of like a
drudge.
So I don't know.
That's my two cents.

Alex (45:22):
No, sounds good.
And I know you mentioned goingto another topic.
I will mention just 1 of thethings that I'd appreciate from
some of the managers in my past.
I'm curious what your thoughtson this too.
I know it can get a littletricky when.
Managers almost become friendsand that relationship can make,

(45:43):
you know, nepotism comes intoplay then.
But I always, and I like whenmanagers make seem like they
make a conscious effort to wantto know who I am outside of
work.
And I'm just kind of curiouswhat your thoughts on that.
Like I want people, I appreciatewhen a manager is asking me
like, Hey when they rememberthat.

(46:05):
A big golfer or something likethat.
And they remember overhearing mesay I was going to go play golf
over the weekend and they would,you know, ask me how I, how it
was, things like that.
So what are your thoughts onmanagers who kind of blur that
line of being friends?
Is that something that you thinkis tough to negotiate?

(46:25):
You think that's something thatyou look for in a manager?

Pat (46:28):
I'll let you.
No, the golf reference includedthere, tee it off.

Alex (46:33):
Oh, that's good.

Pat (46:35):
But

Kyle (46:35):
I like it.
It adds a little layer of, like,personability, I guess, to it.

Pat (46:42):
humanity.

Kyle (46:43):
well, you know what I mean?
Like, because I've definitelyworked at places before, and
it's just like, you clock in,you clock out, like, That's it.
You do your tasks and it's like,you know, see you tomorrow.
So kind of having some humaninteraction and I don't know,
somebody might actually careabout you that you work with or
at least show some sort ofinterest.

(47:03):
I mean, it makes you feel alittle better as like a team
player.
Makes a little more or at leastfor me, it made me a little more
invested in wanting to do betterand not just like come in, sit
there, do my eight hours orwhatever and just be like.
Oh, that's it.
You know, I'm not staying extra.
I'm not doing anything else.
I'm not, you know, just andwe're gone kind of deal like

(47:25):
that.
So I think it's nice.
You know, when they're, whenthey actually showed general
concern for task hobbies,family, you know, things like
that, and you can kind of bond,I guess a little bit on a more
than just a, like a professionallevel.

Alex (47:42):
Yeah, and before Pat chimes in, I'll just mention
that one of the common things Iread about and it seems like
common sense is that thisconcept of employees want to
feel like they trust theirmanager and they want to feel
safe in their role.
And I feel like that's reallydifficult to do if they're not
being personable, it seems likeit'd be difficult for me to

(48:04):
trust someone who.
Has no idea who I am outside ofnine to five.
And I just feel like when theyknow me at a personal level I
feel a bit more safe in my role.
It's just like, it's easier tofire someone, you know, nothing
about, I know that's probably ahorrible way to look at it, but

(48:25):
I just, it's just, like, youknow, me.
Right.
And I feel like, it also makesyou feel a little safer because.
If they know you and you make amistake, which is inevitably
going to happen, I feel likethey can look past it cause they
know you as a person, assumingyou're not a shit person, but,

Pat (48:42):
Yeah

Alex (48:43):
yeah.
So I'll add that before so Paton you.

Pat (48:48):
I think that's a good point.
I think I think there is roomfor a little bit of personality
there.
I've had some managers that aresome managers that are, and
actually kind of going back to,you know, You know, good
leadership qualities andwhatnot, especially for like the
team lead.
I think being a little personalis important.
To that kind of shows you'reready for the next level, right?

(49:11):
Cause I think there is sometruth to the personality.
You know, what are you doingthis weekend?
You know, that sort of thing,you know, but to me and I've
made friends with all my bosses.
Just cause just, I had thepersonality that I do.
I'd like to think I'm relativelyoutgoing and people kind of
respond to that.
But I, you know, but talking tothem.

(49:35):
Personally and saying, Hey, I'mdoing this weekend, or, Hey, I'm
doing that.
Or they know my kids names,stuff like that.
I'm cool with the other side ofthat coin is having them follow
me on social media.
I don't know if that's a decentidea just because you know them,
but do you really know them thatwell to, you know, but there

(49:56):
again, like if you're kind ofputting out a hot take on social
media, is that the best placefor it?
Probably not, but like, youknow.
But I mean, in today's socialmedia age, I mean, these
companies have to have built inHR policies around your social
media accounts.
So, you know, that's, I, mepersonally, I don't think I put

(50:17):
too much spice out there in thesocial media world, but I can
see people that do.
And if I'm a boss following thisperson and they're making waves
for either good or bad, youknow, mostly bad, cause you're
representing a company andpeople know what you do.
That gets, that's where it getsa little spicy, but on, on like
a team's chat, Hey, I'mbarbecuing this weekend or Hey,
I'm taking the kids to blah,blah, blah.

(50:39):
That's no problem.
Like, you know, that's cool.
But as far as the social mediathing, that's kind of where I
have a little bit of a like, youknow, I don't know.
And especially does it come intoplay after you've left that job,
you have an old boss followingyou on social media.
Like, I just think there'snuance there and I don't know if
that's good or bad.
So, but yeah, me personally, I'ma, I tend to think I'm an

(51:01):
outgoing guy and, you know, I'vehad relationships with all my
bosses and they've been.
Relatively strong outside of onethat I can think of.
But but the rest of them areall, you know, decent.
And you tend not to talk to themafter you've left or after
you've, you know, moved on fromthat, you know, space.
And I can't think of one that Istill talk to.
Like regularly that you know,whatever but but yeah, I don't

(51:23):
think a little personal youknow, hey, how you doing and
kind of get you get to know yououtside of the nine to five You
know dredge that you're that youcould potentially find yourself
in hurts at all I think it Ithink it only helps in that
aspect and I think it helps whenyou're kind of doing the same
Things and you're kind of, youknow, cause we've all had
terrible jobs.
So like, if you're in a terriblejob together, that's just a bond

(51:45):
that you have, you know, outsideof work is you're experiencing
the same things.
So I think that that helps too.
So there you go.
I try not to get myself introuble, you know,

Kyle (51:57):
nothing like a little trauma bonding to make the team
stronger.

Pat (52:00):
That's right.
Who's your therapist?
I need a new one.
Laughter.
Anyway, so, I hope that was agood answer.
But yeah.
What kind of couch does he have?
Mine's real uncomfortable.
Laughter.
Oh man.

Alex (52:15):
all right and actually a bit further along than I thought
we'd be.
So I was considering just kindof going through a couple
specific questions.
I had no real structure to it.
I'm just throwing it out thereto you to get your thoughts on a
few things, but is thereanything you definitely wanted

(52:37):
to cover in this particularepisode?

Pat (52:41):
No, I think I think we've done a decent job at leadership
and what to look for and tryingto not to get ourselves in
trouble with stuff we don't wantto look for or that you don't
look for

Kyle (52:52):
I

Pat (52:52):
and or the bad things that we've experienced, but now go
right ahead.
We'll see where this lands.

Alex (52:57):
Okay well, you mentioned early on that I've been
listening to a lot of audiobooks on my trips to work and I
tried putting down some notes tosome of the topics that were
covered in these books and justwant to get, I guess, both of
your thoughts on how importantthey are to you in your manager.

(53:18):
So one of the things that comesup in almost all these books,
because a lot of these books arefocused on technical leaders.
Specifically, as opposed to anyother, you know, business
leader, so on.
So how important is it to youthat your technical leader be a

(53:38):
really technical guy saypractically a senior level
engineer in their skillset, isthat important to you?
Is it a deal breaker?
Are there negatives to it thatyou've come across?
Well, I guess I'll start withyou, Pat, is it a deal breaker?

Pat (53:55):
I'll kick this one off.
I think to a degree it is, Ithink I think it's important to
have your boss know what you do.
On a day to day basis in orderto actually manage you the right
way because I've had bosses thatare really good at that because

(54:16):
they've been where I've been andthey were again, they're just
bumped or whatever.
And I've also had bosses thathave.
This is zero clue.
Like what I do, like they thinkthey know what I do.
I couldn't put them in front ofa terminal or I couldn't put
them in front of a switch or arouter or anything like that.
They'd be lost.
So to me it's, and this isprobably more of a knock on me.

(54:36):
But like, once I figure you out,like if you're good or not, then
sort of my mindset changes.
I don't say a respect level, noton like a personal level, but
like from a.
Professional level, the respectlevel changes in that aspect of
like, okay, you're leading me,but you don't have any, you
don't have any clue on what I'mactually doing for you to make

(54:58):
you look good or whatever, thatkind of thing.
So, I think that.
It matters to me you not to belike, like, and if you don't
have the technical level that Ido, and you're sort of aware of
that, then that's okay.
But then I would suspect, Iwould expect you to take my
suggestions and saying, Hey, weshould be doing this versus

(55:20):
this.
And I need you to fight for thisbecause here are my reasons.
If you don't do that, then Like,what's my role here?
Like, cause you clearly don'tunderstand it or need to, or
like, you don't understand totake the business to the next
level or what feel of need thatthe business is asking for, then
like, what's my purpose here?
Like you, you just kind of.

(55:42):
Letting this thing just roll orlike, there's no like clear
direction to it.
So, I, but I do think it'simportant to be at least
somewhat on par if not just atiny bit ahead of the people
that you manage, because thenyou're all talking the same
language and nobody sort of getsfrustrated with I'm doing all
this technical stuff and I'mtaking it to the boss to get
approved for money and they'resaying no, because they don't

(56:04):
understand it.

Alex (56:06):
And I will add that I'm guessing that it's more likely
in the smaller of the company,the more likely this is to
happen, the bigger the company,the more likely you're going to
have VP levels all the way up toa certain technology.
Like at Disney, there's multiplevice presidents of network
engineering, just to put it inperspective, but in 50 people,

(56:28):
and you may have a manager of ITwho has like.
Networking and cloud guys ontheir team.
And maybe they came from doingnothing but AWS administration
and VM administration.
They really don't know muchabout networking, but they're in
that role just because of whereit's at.
So it's not always just like abusiness leader becomes a tech

(56:51):
leader.
I think it's more likely likesmaller company, a tech leader
becomes a tech leader ofmultiple disciplines.
And they only have.
You know, really experiencedwith one.
But yeah, I guess going to Kyle,what are your thoughts?

Kyle (57:03):
Mean, I've I've had both where somebody's been moved up
and then I'm Get kind of putunder them because we work like
the same field and supertechnical.
If I get stuck on something, youknow, I have somebody to bounce
ideas off or get help orwhatnot.
And I've also had, you know,completely the opposite where I
was put under somebody andthey're like what are you

(57:26):
working on today?
And I explained it to him.
They're like, no, no idea whatthat means.
I don't know what you're saying.
It's completely foreign.
And I was like, okay, well,just, yeah.
I'm going to do a good job, youknow, and get it done.
But it was nice cause theywould, like Pat was saying, take
my suggestions.
If there was something thatneeded to get done they could
run an interference or dosomething like that, or, you

(57:48):
know, talk.
And actually that person wouldalways give me a lot of praise.
I, and I don't know if it wasjust because like.
They were not very technical inthe things that I was doing.
So they would always be like,wow, that was great.
You know, maybe it just seemedextra awesome, even though it
was like just as part of thenorm.

(58:08):
Both have been fine.
It just took a little likeshifting of gears to kind of
figure out how to work withmanagement that was technical
versus non technical kind ofdeal.
They're both fine.
It's just, you know, how how youapproach everything is
different.

Alex (58:24):
Okay.
So sounds like Kyle could, hecould work with either.
Pat's leaning towards, I'dprefer they be a bit technical
in

Pat (58:36):
yeah, maybe that's just my mentality

Kyle (58:38):
Right.
Um, I guess

Pat (58:39):
my stubbornness, but yes, that is correct.

Alex (58:42):
Right.
Yeah, I would say that I'mleaning towards Pat.
I want them to be technical.
I won't say they have to be astechnical as me in the, like the
specific discipline that I'm in.
But I feel like if you are aleader of three different
disciplines, you should at leastbe a junior level understanding
of all of them.
I would prefer you're kind oflike a mid level and you're a

(59:04):
senior in like one of thosedisciplines and that I feel
like.
You need to be able tounderstand what they're doing
and be able to respond toquestions.
Not necessarily a question oflike, how do I troubleshoot
this?
But enough to understand a weshould go with this vendor

(59:25):
because they do X, Y, and Zbetter.
And you understand enough wherethey can explain it to you
without having to, you know,take a three hour PowerPoint to
do it.
So that's kind of where I landin that whole thing.
And I've been lucky enoughwhere.
Pretty much every job that I'veever had, there's always seems
to be a manager that really knewwhat he was doing.

(59:49):
So I think I've been prettyfortunate with that.
Okay.
Like I said, there's justseveral questions, a set of
bullet points that came up inall these different books I was
reading.
So just get your thoughts on it.
The other thing, same idea, isit a deal breaker or not?
What are your thoughts?
On a leader acting like thestereotypical leader.

(01:00:13):
So in other words, do you need aleader that can get up there and
speak like someone that you canrespect?
I mean, can you be led by anintrovert?
I guess.
Have you ever come across that?
Is it difficult?
And.
all comes back to justcommunication.

(01:00:33):
Yeah.
I mean, it's such a genericterm.
I wanted to add a little bit toit, but do you feel like your
technical leader has to be ableto get up and give a speech for
lack of a better term?
Do they need to command theaudience?
I'm going to start with you,Pat, or maybe have you ever come
across a leader where they seema little gun shy on zooms, or

(01:00:54):
you don't think that they couldrally the troops if they needed
to.

Pat (01:00:58):
No, I don't, I, most of my bosses have been.
Decent speakers and they all haddifferent, you know, levels of
technicality of, you know, youknow, in, in regards to my role,
but no, I don't I don't thinkI'd have a problem with it
again.
I think you know, the older Iget and the longer in the tooth

(01:01:18):
in this industry, I get I preferto be a sort of, you know.
Fly on the wall and just, youknow, a department in the back,
you know, in the shadows sort ofthing.
So if people aren't talkingabout you, that means you're
doing a decent job.
So I don't need somebody to goup and be like, Hey, look at my
department, look at what we'redoing, and then rattle off a
bunch of technical stuff.

(01:01:39):
Cause you're going to lose 90%of that audience that isn't
technical.
So, you know, their eyes aregoing to glass going to glaze
over and, you know.
What kind of, you know, look attheir phones, but no, I don't
necessarily need a person tokind of bang that drum.
You know, I'm more of a team guyto be like, look, you know, I
know what my team's doing.
We all know what we bring tothis table.

(01:01:59):
We don't need, we don't needsomebody to go up there and bang
a drum to people that.
You know, that don't understandwhat we're doing or don't know
we exist and then kind of forcefeed that.
So I don't think that would benecessary for me or even
bothered me.
Like if they did that, I don'tthink it would bother me.
I just think it brings moreunneeded attention to things

(01:02:21):
that don't need to be broughtattention to, I don't know.

Alex (01:02:26):
Okay.
Interesting thoughts.
So how about you, Kyle?
Again, kind of like a leader.
How important is it for theperson that leads you?
To have the communication skillsto really command an audience to
really, when they talk people,listen, I mean, it's just kind
of like maybe hard to put inwords that I think, you know

(01:02:49):
what I mean?
So there's just some people thatthey have that and others that
don't

Kyle (01:02:54):
it's for me, at least more of.
Their work ethic and what theyproduce, then it would actually
being for them to be able toexplain it to somebody.
So like, they're like, Oh, we'regoing to hand this to this guy
and we know what's going to getdone.
But he may not be able to likereally kind of go into the
detail or the depths or want totell everybody, but the product

(01:03:19):
will show itself and the teamwill get it done.
That would be enough for me.
You know, I don't need bells andwhistles and somebody to really
be a, an entertainer or, youknow, great.
And in meetings or whatever,it'd be like, Nope, we got it.
We'll handle it.
And.
Done.

Alex (01:03:36):
gotcha.
Well, I have a few other ofthese questions, but before I
keep going on, I guess I'll juststop there.
Is there anything that you guysthought of as a question that
you want to get our opinions on?
Otherwise I can keep rattlingoff until we get to the hour
mark.

Pat (01:03:52):
This is no, I'm good.
I think I think what we talkedabout earlier is kind of where
my head is, as far as, you know,what that time frame looks like
and, you know, and you said, no,it's not necessarily time it's,
you know, it's markers and kindof what people are showing.
So, no, that, that's it's goodfor me.

Alex (01:04:07):
Okay.
So some of these are obvious.
So it's not really a situationwhere.
Is it a deal breaker for you ornot?
So I'll just rattle off a fewand then get your guys thoughts
on what you think is the mostImportant of the ones that you
know mentioned and maybe we cantalk about it some more so these
are just some of the things thatI highlighted from these books
of things that you poor leadersdo and Just get your thoughts on

(01:04:33):
One I guess if you've comeacross it or two like how big of
a deal they actually are wetouched on this a little bit but
Something that poor leaders dois they lack a vision or the
ability to communicate thatvision or that direction.
So that kind of goes back to thepeople underneath.

(01:04:56):
You just don't know what you'reexpected to do.
So I'll stop there.
I'll name a few others and we'llget your thoughts on which of
these are the most important.
They delegate well.
So this goes into the whole ideaof micromanagement a little bit,
I think.
The concept that they delegatewell, by doing a couple of
things that they accomplish 1they delegate work to people

(01:05:18):
based on their skill sets to thedegree they take into account
what they're looking what thesedifferent people are.
Interested in doing so I thinkit's a balancing act.
So the idea that if you got sixpeople on the team and the
person who's the best at doingsomething hates doing it, maybe
that doesn't always mean thatthey're the ones that should get
the work.

(01:05:40):
And also, and this is kind of atouchy subject too.
And I'll stop after this one,but what are your thoughts?
On a manager, and this would bea technical manager and actually
giving themselves engineeringtasks.
And does that ever frustrate youor is that something that you
appreciate?

(01:06:00):
And I think there could be goodand bad reasons for that.
I love the idea, like Kylementioned earlier, we got
rolling up their sleeves andjust doing what needs to be
done.
I think it's a terrible ideawhen a manager does something
because he feels like he's theone that could do it the best
and doesn't trust other peopleto do it.
So.
We'll stop there and get yourthoughts on those three.

(01:06:21):
So lack of direction, delegationability.
And I think that's it.
Those are the two things.
Oh, delegation micromanagementcoming into it a little bit.
So let's get your thoughts onthat, Pat, on those few things.

Pat (01:06:39):
Yeah, that's a good one.
The most important one to me, Ithink, geez I'll tell you the
least important to me, the leastimportant to me is giving.
The manager technical tasks.
I've had folks I've had peopleabove my manager, like just go
and say, Hey, I want, you know,basically make decisions that,

(01:07:01):
that affected my department'sprojects and then completely had
it backwards and we had to likestart from scratch.
So, so, you know, I think.
And that was a VP.
So I think at a VP level, it'sthey're way too up there to
actually like giving peopledirection, like, as far as like,
Hey, like third party vendors.

(01:07:22):
Hey, I want this here, or I wantthis here.
Like, no, it's not yourdecision.
Like you're not in thisnetworking soup day to day.
Like you don't even, like youmade that decision in a vacuum
and set us back weeks.
So I don't care about people.
You know, managers or my directreport doing engineering tasks.

(01:07:42):
Cause that could always be

Alex (01:07:43):
you would prefer that they not do it when they get to
manager level.

Pat (01:07:48):
Correct.
Yeah.
I prefer them not to, I mean,hand it to me or I'll hand it to
somebody.
We're always, you know, me andthe team are always closer to
the sort of vibe or the wholenetwork as a 50, 000 foot view.
And we kind of know how the soupto nuts work.
I would rather one of us handleit then, you know.
They handle it and then we haveto redo it anyway, because they

(01:08:11):
forgot steps, you know, twothrough six, you know,

Alex (01:08:15):
So, what about a situation where you guys really in the
weeds?
So, say you're understaffed, yougot deadlines that, you know,
you're not going to make.
Do you still, do you think youwould still prefer the manager
to stay out of it?
Or if it is a technical manager,you think in those cases, you
appreciate them stepping in andtaking work?
Or do you just feel like that'sa, it's a line you shouldn't

(01:08:36):
cross and it's just, it getstough.

Pat (01:08:39):
well, I think if I know the manager well enough if I've kind
of seen him or her work before Iwould almost like, I'd almost
frame it to be like, okay, Ineed help with this, but only
take them to a certain step,like, Okay.
Give them what you know they canhandle.
So it's almost like you'remanaging your manager at that
level.
Like, because, you know, don'tgive them A to Z because they

(01:09:02):
can't do L to Z.
You

Alex (01:09:04):
milestones.
Check with me after each of

Pat (01:09:07):
yeah, pretty much.
So do the A to, you know, A to Dand let me take it from D.
Because I know.
D is gonna have to, is likewhere the intricacies are and
the nuance.
Like, I want to be able to dothat because I know the network
better than that person does.
So I just don't wanna be workinglike backwards at that point.
Like, I don't wanna get to theend of a project or a milestone

(01:09:29):
and then be like, oh no, wegotta do this, we gotta do it
this way.
And it just causes more work.
So I almost would like to givethem what I know they could
handle that A helps me out and Bdoesn't go too far, so then I
have to rework it.

Alex (01:09:42):
Okay.
Fair enough.
All right.

Pat (01:09:46):
The other part of that is now I was gonna say what I think
is what I think is mostimportant to me is probably
probably a clear vision.
Like I could deal with themicromanaging and I've had a lot
of managers that micromanagingjust can't let go of the
technical space.
They just can't let go of thetechnical stuff.
Like they've been a technicalperson all their career and now

(01:10:08):
they're just.
They're like, Oh yeah, I'm amanager that you slap a manager
title on them.
And they still can't like getout of the way.
So like,

Alex (01:10:16):
but I just, I really interested in what you're doing
and how you're doing it.
You can deal with that?

Pat (01:10:22):
yeah, exactly.
You can push the buttons, but Iwant to like have say in how you
push the buttons.
And I'm just like, Oh God.

Alex (01:10:28):
How hard or soft you push the buttons.

Pat (01:10:31):
Yeah, it's kind of weird, but like, not having a clear
picture of what your departmentis doing or where the, what
goals are for this year or forwhatever the budget year is,
that's very frustrating becauseyou just feel like you're
floating in space, like you haveno clear, like.
Are we replacing firewalls thisyear?

(01:10:51):
What are our projects?
What are we doing?
Like, there's no clear set, Hey,this is what you're going to be
judged upon when KPIs come dueat the end of the year, like.
It's just, it's very hard todeal with that.
And then, like you said, youthink, you know, you have an
idea or you just kind of takeinitiative because it almost
comes back to that, like, it'seasier to ask for forgiveness
than it is for permission sortof thing.

(01:11:12):
So you sort of take the bull bythe horns and then they go no.
This is what I want.
And you're like, Oh shit.
I just wasted all the time.
And because, you know, theycan't make a decision or they,
whatever, like they, they have aterrible time communicating
that.
And it's just not a good, justnot a good thing.
Like they just rolled intomeetings.
They're there because they haveto be, it's on their schedule,

(01:11:32):
but they're constantly lookingat their watch, like on their
hand, like on the, you know,their Apple watch that keeps
buzzing with email.
Like I've had people like that.
I've had managers like that.
It's like, this is the absoluteworst.
And then they have the, youknow, anyway, I'll cut it there.
But yeah, that's, I prefer not.
I prefer to have a clearpicture.
Oh God.
I prefer to have a clear picturecause then you just float in

(01:11:54):
space.
And that's just, it just, it'ssuch a weird feeling just to
kind of exist.
And then you're just doing like,you're just doing break, fix
stuff and like ticket work allday.
And then.
You know, you look busy, butcause you're fixing people's
problems, but the needle nevermoves because you never have any
time for anything else.
Cause there's no vision.

Alex (01:12:13):
So that's interesting.
So I guess micromanaging doesn'tbother you that much.
At least you can deal

Pat (01:12:20):
Don't get me wrong.
It does.
Yeah, I could deal with it.
It does bother the shit out ofme.
I could just deal with it.

Alex (01:12:26):
You you would prefer that managers want to get that level,
stay out of actual code,probably the most generic term I
can put.
And it's most important to youto have a manager that.
Makes it very clear.
This is our team's goals.
If you do this, hey.

(01:12:47):
You've done your job well.
Okay.

Pat (01:12:50):
right.
But on the other side of that,just.
From a 50, 000 for you, I'm nota fan of the whole, Hey, let's
do KPIs in January, and thenlook at those same KPIs in
December because it never isnever a straight line like that.
It's always something didn'tcome in for budget.
We couldn't get this projectdone because of business needs.

(01:13:11):
They weren't ready budget, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I'm not a huge fan of puttinglines in the sand.
In January, and then beingsolely judged and raised and all
that kind of stuff that comeswith it in December, because the
six out of your eight KPIs arecompletely non, they're avoided
because of the way the businesswent over that year's timeframe.

Alex (01:13:33):
sure.
KPI in January is replaced theentire firewall infrastructure,
but they finally arrivedDecember 4th and

Pat (01:13:41):
Correct.
What the fuck?
Yeah, exactly.

Alex (01:13:46):
All right.
And then Kyle, on to you.
What are your thoughts on thosethree micromanagement managers
that actually do the actualwork, hands on work and clear
cut expectations and vision.

Kyle (01:13:59):
Definitely the clear cut expectations, vision,
communication, completely keybecause I've definitely.
Being on the receiving end ofsomebody be like, yeah, just
kind of want this, you know,with really no direction or
communication.
And then you're halfway in theproject and they're like, well,
no, not like that.
And you're like, well, youdidn't give me any direction.

(01:14:20):
What are you talking about?
Uh, being micromanaged, that isa pain in the ass.
And it is the absolute worst.
Like if I get stuck or needhelp, I'll come to you.
Don't be needling me withquestions and like, how are we
doing?
How was it looking?
Yeah, that's.
It's aggravating and it's justdistracting.

Pat (01:14:39):
That's a big one.
Yep.

Kyle (01:14:41):
The technical manager gets in as long as like they have a
good track record.
I would say I'm okay with it,but if they're just constantly
like sticking their hands in andtwisting knobs and twiddling
dials and just fuckingeverything up, like, no, just
keep your hands out of it, butif you're competent, you could
do it and like, it's helpful,that's fine.

(01:15:01):
You could jump into, you know,we can work as a team.
Maybe I'll learn something.
Maybe you'll learn something.
Everybody learned something,whatever.
But If it's just going to be apain in the ass that's going to
cause more work for me, thendon't.

Alex (01:15:15):
Okay.
All right.
And I guess I'll give my twocents on it.

Pat (01:15:19):
Yes.

Alex (01:15:20):
I

Kyle (01:15:21):
Heh.

Alex (01:15:22):
think I echo what Kyle said.
I guess I'm biased cause I am amanager that.
And I still feel like I'm prettytechnical.
So I'm definitely in that campwhere I don't mind when managers
come in and work on stuff.
It's something that maybe Ishould think about a little bit
more.
It's something I do a lot.
Disney today, but I kind of feellike that it's what's been asked

(01:15:43):
of me.
So I don't feel like I'm doingit just because I want to,
although I really do.
But at this point I'm kind of, Ialmost treat myself like a part
time engineer for good or bad.
So that means when I'm kind ofdelegating work for the team we
have so much work that we can,that needs to be done, that
there's no such thing as like, Icouldn't assign things for

(01:16:04):
people to do, there's just awhole list of things to do.
So when I'm doing my two weekplannings, I give everyone, at
least in my head, I try to giveeveryone like what I feel is
about 20 hours of work because Iknew, I know things come up and
I know things take longer thanexpected.
And I also know that.
You know, things break, youmight have to put out a fire or

(01:16:26):
two.
So I give everyone theequivalent of about 10, 20 hours
of work.
And I give myself about 10.
it sounds like Pat would hatethat idea, but yeah
micromanagement.
I feel like that's kind of a, itgoes back to trust.
If I feel like they'remicromanaging because they
don't.
Trust my skillset, then that'stough.
And if I take the personal sideout of it, I just feel like any

(01:16:49):
manager, if you're at the pointwhere you're micromanaging
people, then I think somethingneeds to change.
Either you need to trust peopleand see whether or not they
truly can get something done.
Or if they're consistently notdoing what you expect them to
do, then micromanaging isn't theissue.
The issue is either you need togive them better resources.

(01:17:10):
Or I'll just come out and sayit.
Sometimes you have to get rid ofpeople.
Maybe as the manager on thecall, that's a tough thing to
say.
But 1 thing that I've, I dobelieve is that 1 of the ways
you can alienate good employeesis if you tolerate a poor 1 and
I think that we sugarcoat thatsometimes.

(01:17:30):
And I just feel like, cause I'mfine with saying that's another
real common book, extremeownership.
The idea that leadership shouldtake ownership of issues.
And I think some people say likea leader can't really take
ownership for everything thatfails because there's things
that are legitimately not hisfault.

(01:17:51):
And, you know, I guess therebuttal to that is as well.
In almost every instance, theycould have done something
differently.
And if it truly comes back topoor performance from.
An employee, either one, you'renot remediating it, which I
still feel like they're takingownership to fix the problem.
But if it continues to be aproblem, I think it's on the

(01:18:14):
manager of the leader becausethey haven't corrected the
employee situation.
If you have a person on yourteam that consistently messes
up, then as a leader, I thinkyou need to remove that person
on the team.
So that's how it comes back tobeing on the leader's ownership
there, but I'm kind ofdigressing it.
A little bit there.

Pat (01:18:34):
This is good.
This is therapy.
I love it.

Alex (01:18:38):
Well, I mean, maybe that's a good segue into another
question.
What are your thoughts on howmanagers should approach poor
performing employees and haveyou come across that where,
again, we're not naming names,but have you had a situation
where you just had a person onthe team where you just felt
like.
Even if you like the personwhere you're just like this

(01:18:59):
person's just not working outand I don't see it working out.
I think a change needs tohappen.
And maybe you have more respectfor leadership if they it.

Pat (01:19:10):
Yeah, I think that's a big one.
I have had things like that.
And again, maybe this is just meand my mentality, but I just
feel if a colleague isn'tperforming and they're
constantly coming to you andkind of what I said a bit ago
about the same, you know, samequestions over and over, you
know, every two weeks orwhatever it is, it's like, yeah

(01:19:31):
the components are different,but it's the same underlying
issue.
They just need to apply the samelogic.
Yeah.
With a new set of variables.
It's literally the same thing.
It's over and over.
And it's like, I feel like I'm abroken record and yeah, but I
think you're spot on with thewhole, you're going to ruin good
employees by tolerating andputting up with the bad ones
that, that happens quite a bit.

(01:19:52):
And that's happened to me atmultiple places.
And it's just like, maybe thisis just me thinking like nobody
works as hard as I do, you know,that kind of thing, you know,
it's it is, it's very stressfulbecause then that basically
then.
To help that person who shouldnot be a junior or literally in
your department.
And then most last couple ofjobs I've had, I've been senior

(01:20:17):
everywhere I've been.
So they're not juniors.
They're not mid levels.
They're, you know, they're.
You're in your department oryour colleagues, they're coming
to you about a problemconsistently, but the same
problem, that means they'retaking your time away from what
you're doing.
And you're almost doing the workof two people.
And again, that just leads toburnout, you know, things of

(01:20:37):
that nature.
So, yeah, I think leaders doneed to take that by the, you
know, the bull by the horns touse a corny cliche and be like,
look, like either you got to putthem on some sort of like, it
sounds weird, but like.
Like probation list or like,say, Hey, you got to meet this
goal by this are you going towork on this trait by, by this

(01:20:59):
date or whether that's you know,kind of having a heart to heart
or, you know, come to Jesusmoment as it's, you know.
Commonly called being like,look, you either got to, you
know, perform or get out.
And a lot of, you know, someindustries are more cutthroat
than others.
Right.
It just is what it is.
So, yeah, but I think leaderstoday, managers are in a call.
I think this whole, I don't wantto get myself into much trouble,

(01:21:21):
but like, I think this whole,like.
Everyone, you know, comestogether and it's hard to, it's
hard to be an individual whenyou're constantly talked about
in a team environment and it'slike, okay, yeah, the team makes
it go, but like, you got to lookat the, you got to look at the
metrics within the team.

(01:21:41):
If you have a team of 10 peopleand five of them are pushing the
bus up the hill at all times.
The other five are just kind ofwaving from inside the bus.
It's just like, Hey, how youdoing?
The other guy thinks it's like,oh man.
So it's just, yeah, I think theyneed to have those tough
conversations.
And I don't, you know, most ofthe places that I've been, I

(01:22:02):
don't want to say sweep it underthe rug, but they just, they
don't come at it head on and itjust doesn't do well.
The longer it goes, the more itkind of stinks.

Alex (01:22:12):
Yeah.
I mean, I probably wouldn't goas far as to say like the, it's
only the team's only as strongas the weakest link.
I mean, that might be a bitharsh, but I do really feel like
poor employees bring down thebetter ones.
And some, I'll get Kyle'sopinion before I go on too much
of a tangent, but again, talkingabout things that I've read

(01:22:32):
recently, another thing thatI've read that I think will
change my opinion on or changehow I operate going forward in a
management role is more oftenthan not, the poorest employees
are the people that the managersthat consume the majority of
their time And in this book thatI'm reading, it's about John

(01:22:55):
Maxwell.
He's a real big leadership guruguy, but he says that you should
spend 80% of your time on yourbest employees.
So he's saying flip that on yourside.
It's just like, you'll get yourbiggest return if you spend your
time and energy on your bestemployees, when in reality, the
majority of the time, peoplejust spend the majority of their

(01:23:15):
time on their poorest employeesin an attempt to get them up to
the level of their bestemployees.
But in reality, you should tryto take your best employees and
grow them.
Cause they're going to, and morethan likely give you a much
bigger return than your pooreremployees and your poorer
employees.
Not to say that you let themdefend for themselves, but to a

(01:23:37):
degree, I feel like you have to,they have to show up at some
point

Pat (01:23:42):
Yeah.

Alex (01:23:44):
I mean, it's harsh to say, but at some point it's not worth
your time and you gotta make achange.
All right.
So, Kyle, some heavy thoughtsthere.
Not the nicest topic, but

Pat (01:23:58):
Yeah, follow that up, Kyle.
Get out there.
Come on, bro.

Kyle (01:24:01):
I mean, actually, what you said, though, sounds pretty
interesting, but I want to sayit almost seems
counterintuitive, but I guessthat's how some of that stuff
works, but, like, you weresaying about getting the biggest
return, it's kind of interestingto think about but I would
definitely say, again, with whatPat was saying to the weak
players on the team or the.

(01:24:23):
You know, people who just don'tcare, it doesn't do anything but
hurt the rest of the team andmake more work for everybody
else, which, and sucks too.
Especially if it's a peercolleague, something like that.
And you're like, you know, whyam I busting my ass to make X,
Y, Z amount of money and thisperson's doing.
A third of the work and, youknow, kind of on par with me,

(01:24:47):
like, getting burned out, you'regetting, you're feeling, you
know, a certain way about like,why am I working so much harder
and sucks.
It's, it actually does.
It's, that's a lot.

Alex (01:25:02):
Yeah.
I mean, to tie it back into thetopic at hand, it just.
I guess the topic is leadershipand don't forget about that, but
yeah, I guess the idea is thatwhen we're talking about
leadership, they have to makedifficult decisions.
And maybe this is a sign of agood leader, which might sound
counterintuitive is to know whento let go of people.
And I think that's a skillsetthat not to get overly

(01:25:25):
political, but at least nowadaysseems like it's a touchy
subject, like, firing somebodyis difficult nowadays.
And I think a good leader has tonavigate that and maybe pull.
Start that effort or pull thatplug quicker than they're doing
today anyway, because

Pat (01:25:47):
Good point.

Alex (01:25:47):
yeah, because I think and it's not necessarily you know,
good people will do this.
But being a great person doesn'tnecessarily mean you're a great
leader.
I mean, I think that helps, but.
I think most people, 95% of theworld, you know, they don't want
to hurt people's feelings.
They want to see everyonesucceed.
It's not realistic.
And I, you know, that's adifficult decision.

(01:26:09):
Good leaders have to do sometimeis say it's not working out.
And I think it's even harder.
Cause this is a, another thingthat came up that again,
something else I was reading,but it's probably the most
difficult situation I think amanager faces or a leader faces
is what do you do with averageemployees that continue to be

(01:26:30):
average?
And wow, that's a tough like sayyou have six reports and five of
them are just phenomenal.
And one person just is okay.
And it's been okay for 10 years.
Like, what do you do?

Pat (01:26:48):
Yeah,

Alex (01:26:49):
do you just accept that?
And there's a sense of loyaltyor, you know, cause if you take.
Nepotism out of it and I mean,does it make sense to keep a
person?
I mean, if you think about it insports, this is probably the
simplest thing to see peoplecoming and going, you know,
mediocrity isn't tolerated or,you know, they get their salary

(01:27:14):
cut.
So it's not like you cutsomebody cut their salary in
half because they're mediocre.
If they have the same title,they're probably getting paid
the same as somebody who's doingtwice as much work.

Pat (01:27:24):
sure.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Cause I, you know, cause I see alot of people that I don't see,
I see a lot of people, but Ihave come across people that
just are okay with exactly wherethey're at.
Right.
And they weren't necessarily onmy teams or whatever, but you
know, kind of, you know, theystand out the folks that just
want to kind of.
Yeah, they're good at whatthey're good at.

(01:27:45):
They don't want to do no more,no less that sort of thing, you
know, and so yeah, that's atough one.
Like, are they doing whatthey're supposed to be?
Like, what's the expectation?
Like, if the expectation haschanged, then I would say.
You know, are they, then they'reunderperforming if they're just
kind of keep, you know, they'rekeeping even keel.
So if you don't change yourexpectations, you just kind of

(01:28:05):
want to let them, you know, playwith the red stapler, right?
So it's just, it's hard to, youknow, it's hard to, it's hard to
knock them for just being like,Hey, you know, I'm just doing
what I'm asked.
But if the ask never changes,then you don't have a leg to
stand on to be like, yeah, thisguy's really not pulling his
weight.

Alex (01:28:24):
Gotcha.
All right.
Well, we're probably at timeright now.
That was kind of a negative wayto end.
Is there a nicer way to end it?
Usually we say like the futureof x, Y, Z.
I don't, I think leadership isone of the few things that what
rings true today will probablyring true a hundred years from
now.
So maybe that's a difficulttopic, but.

(01:28:47):
Anything you guys think that wecan close on it?
Preferably a nicer note.

Pat (01:28:52):
Kyle, you have any thoughts?

Kyle (01:28:54):
No, I was just going to come out with the joke and be
like, you just fire everybody.

Alex (01:28:58):
just drop a bomb and start

Kyle (01:29:00):
Yeah, there you go.

Alex (01:29:02):
All

Pat (01:29:02):
No, I just think yeah, leadership's always hard.
Cause it, at the end of the day,it doesn't lead with the
technical stuff.
You don't rely on your technicalskills.
When you're a leader, at leastnot as much, I think leader
leaders have to deal with.
People and there's a personalityaspect to who you're leading,

(01:29:23):
which I think is tough.
I think most people want to dowell.
Some people can't do it justbecause they can't manage the
different personalities.
And, you know, there again, kindof coming back to you, Alex,
with the, they spend all theirtime on the employees that they
need to get up to par to geteveryone equal.
I don't think, I don't thinkthere's, I don't know.
It's just, there's not a rightor wrong way to.

(01:29:47):
You just have to, you have to bewho you can be, lead who you can
lead.
But again, you're always sort ofreaching, you know, you're
reaching your hand back to thatperson that's on the rung below
you and trying to pull them upwith you.
And then, but that's under theassumption that somebody's doing
that above you, right?
That sort of thing.
So I think most people want todo it well.

(01:30:07):
Some people can't.
Some people can, some people arereally good at it.
But there's always room forimprovement to the way this, you
know, kind of, and I would saylead from the front, right?
You know, nobody likes a bossthat's whipping you from behind.
Well, you know, you're the horseand they're on the chariot
behind you.
That kind of thing.
You know, I would say peoplethat, you know, the good leaders
are the ones that are pullingthe rope in front of you.

(01:30:28):
Rather than whipping you frombehind.
So, I've had some good ones.
I've had some bad ones, and Ihope when that, where that takes
me or when that time comes in mycareer that I can, you know,
lead or, you know, have thatmanager title bestowed upon me,
if you will that I would justtake the things that I've seen
that I don't like and not dothat to the people that, you

(01:30:50):
know, call me boss or peoplethat, you know, that, that look
to me.
So I guess that's my two cents.

Alex (01:30:57):
Well, you did talk a little bit there.
Maybe that's a good way to closeit is maybe we could just quick
chat and you touch on just alittle bit there, just what our
future goals are as far asleadership's concerned, like,
anything that we're doing andare we hoping to move up the
corporate ladder?
And like, I guess you've alreadytalked about it.
It seems like you're certainlyon that track that you want to

(01:31:19):
manage people at some point,interested to see if.
Kyle is hoping to do that atsome point in the near future.
And I'll maybe a touch, a littletouch base on my goals for the
next five years.
Leadership wise.

Kyle (01:31:32):
Yeah, it would be pretty awesome.
I did it back as a help deskwhen I was the managing that
kind of way back in the day.
And it was kind of awesome tohave a team to work for you.
Since then I've gone, I guess,working in a smaller I.
T.
departments and higher ed.

(01:31:54):
It's really not a whole lot ofroom to go anywhere, but if I
had the chance to, I'd like toget back there.

Pat (01:32:01):
There you go.
there and be

Kyle (01:32:03):
Woo!

Pat (01:32:03):
brother.

Alex (01:32:05):
Since I asked the pointed question, what about you, Pat?
So obviously you do want to getin that

Pat (01:32:12):
do...

Alex (01:32:13):
no, there's a butt to it.

Pat (01:32:15):
your thought.
No, finish your thought.

Alex (01:32:18):
well, I'm going on the assumption that is what you want
to do.
So I guess my next question isif you.
Do you hope to do that?
Is there anything that you feellike you're doing today that
maybe you didn't do Five yearsago or maybe even a couple years
ago to kind of set you up forthat

Pat (01:32:34):
Yeah I do but I have a little bit of a fear of losing
some of that technical edge.
But I'm hoping that, thatposition, when it becomes
available to me, that, you know,my uppers see that.
You know, that I have the skillsto fill that gap.
You know, but again, and I'mhoping I, I can read the room

(01:32:56):
well enough to know when to jumpin and know when to stay out.
That's a skill all in itself, Ithink in some managers.
But no, I think it's always aweird kind of, I don't want to
say crux, but it's a weirdposition to be like, okay, like,
you know, I've been technicalfor my whole career and now I'm
expected to, You know, be inmeetings and manage people's you

(01:33:19):
know, personalities versus, youknow, just dealing with zeros
and ones and, you know, bits andbytes.
But no, I do want to I do wantto move into that role whenever
that becomes, you know, like Isaid, available to me.
But it's definitely I'm going todefinitely need some coaching
and again, know when to, youknow, Read the room and kind of
stay out of various things that,you know, again, that's a pet

(01:33:42):
peeve of mine to just boss isjust muddying the waters for no
reason.
But yeah, it's just, that's justkind of where my head is at.
And as far as like the whole,what I have a better handle on
now versus what I did five yearsago is definitely I've come out
of the tech.
Bubble, if you will, a littlebit.

(01:34:02):
And now I'm applying what techI'm doing now and how it's, I'm
applying it from a businessperspective.
How's that going to help thebusiness move forward?
I think that's a big one whereyou need, when you're in a
management role, it's not justlike.
Oh, I get to play with thecoolest stuff and it does X.
Like I, you have to be able toapply a business reason to that.

(01:34:24):
Like, there's just no, there'sno other way around it.
Cause that's, who's paying forit.
And that's, who's going tobenefit from it.
Five years ago or, you know, youknow, whatever.
I was just like, Oh yeah, I'mgoing to put the Cisco switch in
this new model because it's anew model.
Like I didn't understand likewhat.
The new model brought to thebusiness as far as like, can
this do this bigger, stronger,faster sort of thing.

(01:34:46):
So I definitely have a betterbusiness aware of like, or and I
frame my argument that way too.
Like if I'm going to go ask for800, 000 or a million, whatever
this stuff costs, like they'renot just going to write me a
check and be like, Hey, you dealwith this all day long.
I'm just going to put my fulltrust in you.
Like that's a big chunk ofchange.
I, you have to have a decent,you have to put it in business

(01:35:07):
terms to be like, okay, you'regoing to benefit from this.
X, Y, and Z, you know, that kindof thing.
So I have a better mind frame asfar as, you know, going to bat
for my for that technology andputting it into a business frame
rather than, Oh, can I get this?
And it's a lot of money, but Iget it because can I get it
because it's cool.
And cause that's what I want towork on.
No, it doesn't work that way.

(01:35:27):
So I've really kind of startingto set my eyes on the business
part of things and kind of gofrom there.

Alex (01:35:34):
All right, sounds good Yeah, I guess we'll close with
my thoughts.
What i'm hoping to do so i'vebeen in management now for Six
seven years now.
So I feel like Naturally, I'mprobably at the experience level
where I, if it was any otherrole, I'd be considering the

(01:35:57):
next line.
So, I guess there's a few thingsI'm doing now.
And when I was in an individualcontributor role, junior, mid
level senior, like architectlevel, I always would seek out
the more senior engineers, whichseems straightforward.
And most people do that, but forwhatever reason, when I moved to
management, I stopped seekingout.

(01:36:19):
Well, in this case, likedirectors or senior managers or
VPs as almost mentors.
I don't know why that was.
I guess maybe I had just thisnaive idea of management.
And once you get to management,it's all the same.
It's just the number of peoplethat you support is different.
So I think I want to make moreof a conscious effort now to
seek out the senior leaders andto kind of get an understanding

(01:36:43):
of you know, what makes themdirector level or what makes
them VP level versus me.
Cause I'm assuming there's goingto be things that they'll be
able to tell me I need to workon just like a senior network
engineer can tell a juniornetwork engineer, Hey, you
should brush up on this and youshould be capable of doing this.
I think when people get into themanagement, they really don't

(01:37:03):
understand, like, well, what doI need to do to be a VP if I'm a
manager today?
So I hoping that I'll find somementors that'll kind of help me
with that.
So yeah, that's big.
The other thing I think thatgets pretty important when
you're making the transitionfrom like manager to director
level is my experience has justbeen networking.

(01:37:27):
That's all I've done my wholecareer.
And even if I can get away withit, a company, the size of
Disney, I feel like I got toexpand my expertise a little bit
more not that I'm like a noviceat every other technical
discipline, but I kind of feellike.
If you want to make thattransition to a director you're
farther away from typing on thekeyboard, but I feel like you
need to have a broader scope ofunderstanding.

(01:37:49):
So, you know, I feel like maybeI should really get a better
understanding of programming, abetter understanding of storage
technologies.
Cloud, I'm already decent at,but you get the idea.
I feel like you need to broadenyour eyes a little bit because
you don't need, you got to bemore of a jack of all trades at
the end of the day.
Today I'm just a networking guy.

(01:38:10):
And I guess the other thing, thelast thing I'll mention is just
like we talked about in thedifferent levels of your career,
you got to like, take on thebigger projects take on the
things that people don't want todo.
So I feel like I'm going to lookfor opportunities to own
something that maybe somethingthat nobody wants to do.

(01:38:30):
Like, I get in these meetingsnow with 8 different.
Managers and above talking aboutsomething as simple as like our
change management process, whichreally doesn't fall on any one
particular person and no onereally owns it because I mean,
what's a software engineeringmanager, what's a director of
storage engineering have to doanything with, you know,

(01:38:50):
ticketing systems.
So maybe that's something thatimpacts the entire company and
see if I can just run with it.
So.
I think those are the things

Pat (01:38:58):
that's interesting.
that's really cool.
Awesome.
Good deal.

Alex (01:39:04):
Okay.
And with that, I won't suggestany other topics because I think
now we're well past

Kyle (01:39:10):
Heh heh heh heh

Pat (01:39:13):
all right now.
This has been a good one, man Wewere this is one.
This has been one of the betterones I think in the last couple
weeks some really gooddiscussions and some really good
insight as far as from a youknow Two guys that are trying to
get to leadership roles and oneguy that's been in there for a
little bit.
And I think we come to I thinkwe agreed on most things.
We've come to to a a happymedium on, on most things or our

(01:39:33):
thoughts are aligned across theboard here.
So, that's all right with youguys.
I'm going to.
Put a bow on this one.
We'll let it out into the etherand see what happens, see what
kind of a response we get.
So if anybody has any otherleadership you know, suggestions
or what's worked for you or whathasn't worked for you, certainly
let us know.
We're all about that feedback.
So it's all good there.

(01:39:54):
So we're going to wrap it uphere, gentlemen.
So I want to thank everybody forjoining this week on the.
Breaking down the bites podcast,right?
We started as two Alex and Iwere starting the mission.
We sailed the ship sailed withjust me and him.
And then Kyle came and werounded out as the trio, the
musketeers are back again, sothat's all good.

(01:40:15):
So, make sure you visit ourwebsite, breakingbytespod.
io.
You can subscribe to the show onyour platform of choice, right?
The big three being Applepodcasts, Google podcasts,
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I think Stitcher is actuallygoing out of business, I think,
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So, but we're on all platforms.
So whatever one you want to hearour.

(01:40:35):
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There's links for all of themout there.
So, there, there's a plain RSSfeed out there as well.
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That would be great at foolswith their algorithms and the
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And that gets more ears tolisten to us.

(01:40:56):
So that's always good.
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If you just stumble upon us youknow, a little more organically.
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(01:41:18):
Discord server is out there.
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It's just out there.
So, if you haven't done thatalready, just there's a couple
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(01:41:38):
should say aggregates answersfor us and it just helps us
tweak the show and guests andtopics and things of that
nature.
So, all right, boys, it's been afun one.
I, as always appreciateeverybody for joining and we'll
see you all next week.
Later.

Kyle (01:41:52):
ya.

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