Nailing the Interview

We're BACK! After a bit of a break for the holiday(s), we're back in the saddle with a new episode. Join us this week as we talk about interviews and how to ace them. We also talk about some of the best and worst interviews we've had throughout our careers. If you have any interview stories, please hit us up on our socials!

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Episode Transcript

Pat (00:01):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to this week'sedition of Breaking Down the
Bites.
As usual, I am your host, pat.
You can find me on Twitter atlayer eight packet.
That's the number eight.
Kyle, you're on Twitter.
Two at Dennis, 2 56.
Alex, you're not a social mediaguy, so we're gonna skip right
on past you for this part.
It's all good.
could find the show on Twitterat Breaking Bites Pod.

(00:24):
We are pretty active on Twitterwhere we try to be.
So come say hello.
If you like the show, don'tforget to subscribe to your
platform of choice.
We are back.
We took a little couple weeksoff for the holiday to
rejuvenate to get the juicesflowing and rest our weary
bodies.
But we are back behind the mic.

(00:44):
And back with the new episodethis week, the boys are back.
All three Musketeers are herethis week, so it's all good.
We don't have a mishmash of, youknow, two out of the three, so
we are back.
Kyle, what's up man?
How you doing?
Everybody good?

Kyle (00:58):
yeah.
Yeah.
Pretty good.
You know, digging this weatherLike 55 degrees in January.

Pat (01:03):
yeah, I'll take it.
No snow here in Pennsylvaniajust yet, but there is time.
You know, I feel like some daysin Pennsylvania we go through
all four seasons in like a day.
you know, it's like, what areyou doing?
This is insanity.
So anyway.
Alex, you're here too.
What's up man?
You're on the left coast,hanging out in California.

(01:26):
How was your holiday?
Everybody?
Good.
Southern California.
Yep.

Alex (01:29):
Yeah, so I won't bring up the weather, but it's safe to
say it'll be in the sixties orseventies.
Sunny

Pat (01:36):
Damn it.
So yeah, I bet you don't missthe Pennsylvania weather

Alex (01:41):
No, I sent pictures to a couple friends on Christmas of,
my boys in the pool on Christmasday, cuz it was 83 degrees here,

Pat (01:50):
That's,

Alex (01:50):
And it was like record colds in the Northeast.
That's, that was the day thateveryone had single digits.
So yeah, it was pretty

Pat (01:58):
yeah.
Here in pa like in that stretchover Christmas and whatnot, got
down to eight degrees.
It was brutal.
Yeah, it was brutal.

Alex (02:06):
Yeah, the holidays weren't too bad.
It was in my 35 years.
It was the first Christmas notseeing my mother, so that was a
little different cuz even thoughI moved to California a year and
a half ago, I went to,Pennsylvania for Christmas.
So, but I felt bad cuz my dadmoved out here with us to
California shortly after wemoved.
And so he was, he pretty muchmoved out here.

(02:30):
I think it was like the firstweek of November.
And then we left, you know, amonth and a half later to go to
Pennsylvania for Christmasbreaks.
He didn't have anyone here inCalifornia.
So, but so this year you got tohave Christmas with us.

Pat (02:42):
that's good.
Cool.
Yeah, right on.
Right on.
So we are back this week.
We kind of himmed and hawedabout topics and whatnot, but we
are talking interviews, so we'retalking interview tips, and then
what the lookout for kind ofnail that interview, if you
will.
And then first we're gonna talkabout some of our best and worst
interview experiences that we'veall had and kind of, you know,

(03:04):
some are great, some are not sogreat.
And Just kind of see what wherethat lands us and kind of go
from there.
But yeah, interviews this weekand yeah, if you're looking for
one, I figured, you know, it's agood time to do it, you know,
new year, maybe get a freshstart and a new gig somewhere.
So we're we're coming through onthe interview style, so here we
go.
So, I don't know, Alex, youwanna kick this one off with no.
You wanna do a best one first?

(03:25):
They wanna do it

Alex (03:27):
Can any of us think of a best one right off the top of
our heads?
Seems like it's easier to saywhat the worst are.

Pat (03:33):
right Yeah, I've we've all had some pretty bad ones.

Alex (03:35):
right?

Kyle (03:36):
I mean, I can run with that one if you want,

Pat (03:38):
yeah, go for

Kyle (03:38):
cuz my best one was the most recent one,

Pat (03:41):
Yeah, there you

Kyle (03:42):
At Kutztown University.
You know, went in, had lots ofquestions.
Really engaged with the team,trying to figure out everything
was going on.
And actually I still getcompliments today about how well
I interviewed and the questionsthat I asked.
And like, like most peopledidn't even care.
They didn't ask any questions.
They didn't do, you know, likeany homework, they just kind of

(04:02):
were like, yeah, huh, yeah, herefor a job.
You know, like, so I mean, that,that turned out to be really
awesome.
And it was great to kind of hearsome feedback too, cuz you know,
you never really get a lot offeedback on job interviews and
stuff like that.
You either like, Hey, we went adifferent direction, you know,
thanks, you get that email andyou're well, or you get the job.

(04:26):
So that was definitely, youknow, the best one.
The team was great even duringthe interviews and everything
like that, the questions weregood.
The way that they kind of wentaround the room and stuff was
super cool.

Pat (04:36):
Yeah.
So were you interviewed by likea panel then, Kyle?
Or how many people were in theroom?

Kyle (04:42):
So there were three other guys.
There was my, who is my bossnow.
There was one of the serveradministrators and there was our
security admin.

Pat (04:54):
Okay.

Kyle (04:54):
So they all asked me a little bit of different
questions about my backgrounddifferent things that I had
done, you know, that were on myresume and stuff like that.
And, you know, then peppered insome tech questions and stuff
like that.

Pat (05:05):
Nice.
Yeah, I can get behind that.

Kyle (05:08):
Yeah.

Alex (05:11):
So was there anything specific about the people that
we're interviewing that made ita good interview or you just
feel like they could have pulledanybody from Kutztown University
and it's just the way theyorganize their interview that
made it good

Kyle (05:25):
I wanna say like, everybody was super, super
friendly, you know, so that wasnice too.
All within, you know, atechnical background and stuff
like that.
So they didn't just pullsomebody, you know, that was
like, could fill a seat.
and just ask questions.
So, you know, that kind of, Iguess is nice too cuz you know,
they have a little bit of a BSdetector built in cuz they, they

(05:46):
know the tech stuff, so, so itwas cool you know, everybody was
super friendly and inviting andstuff like that too, so that,
that kind of made it nice, youknow, I don't know if you've
ever been on any of thoseinterviews where it's just kind
of cold and you're like, eh,

Alex (05:58):
for sure.

Pat (05:59):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.

Alex (06:01):
Yeah.
Did you get any questions that.
Really didn't pertain to the jobat all, or weren't even
technical.
They were just trying to get,you know, you a little bit
better.

Kyle (06:09):
No.
Everything was, it was prettymuch, you know, just the basic
questions like, you know, howwould you handle this situation,
that situation, you know, as faras that kind of troubleshooting
standpoint.
But most of it was all justtechnical stuff then.
And then it was just like, well,do you have any questions for
us?
And you know, I was like,actually I do, you know, I'm
prepared and.

(06:30):
Then I kind of, you know, shotsome questions back and yeah, it
worked out really great.
Yeah,

Pat (06:35):
You imagine like Kyle's like, yeah, I got questions.
And he like, he gets outta thepiece of paper and like rolls
onto the floor.
It's like, you know, it's likeseven feet long and it just
keeps going.
And they're like, oh my God, Ihave lunch in a half hour.
I'm not gonna be able to getthrough this.
This is terrible.

Kyle (06:51):
Yeah, it was kind of memorable too, cuz it actually
ended up being a snow day.
So I was supposed to go there,but the university was closed
and they

Pat (07:02):
they did it remote then.

Kyle (07:03):
They did everything on Zoom, you know, cuz they're like
well we're supposed to get awhole bunch of snow and you're
like, you know, coming from theLehigh Valley all the way out
here we're just doing on Zoom,so,

Pat (07:12):
Yeah.
That's good.
That's good.
Alex you got one?
You got a favorite one?

Alex (07:17):
I mean, I wanna say that all the interviews that I had
that were decent, they weren'toverly memorable.
I mean, not to say anythingagainst Disney, but I thought
that was a good interview, butnothing really stood out as to
why it was a good interview.
I think if I had to sayanything, I just thought the

(07:37):
questions were good.
As a manager, I had to dointerviews and at my previous
jobs, give interviews and.
I noticed a lot of questionsthat I asked people were the
same questions that were askedof me.
So that, in that sense, Ithought the interview was good
because in my head I'm thinking,well, these are the types of
questions I would ask.
So,

Pat (07:57):
Yeah, that's good.

Alex (07:59):
not only am I prepared for those answers, which always
makes you feel good, but then Ikind of feel like, hey, we're on
the same wavelength, if theseare the things that we find are
important.
yeah.
So yeah, nothing else that madeit great.
evolve IP was the first timethat had an interview where I
was taking out the dinner as afollow up.

(08:19):
That was kind of neat,

Pat (08:20):
yeah.

Alex (08:22):
and, so I thought I, and it was all, and this has changed
quite a bit.
I don't know if that's justbecause I've worked for bigger
companies, the last fewcompanies, or maybe it's just
change at times, but.
prior to Evolve ip I was reallyaccustomed to like the one and
done interview.
You, you do an interview andeither you got it or you didn't.
so I think Evolve IP was thefirst time that there was the

(08:43):
follow up interview and thefollow up interview in this case
was dinner, which, maybe reallywasn't even a follow-up
interview is kinda know, set instone at that point.
But yeah, I thought that wasneat to sit down with the VPs
and have a dinner on their dimeand kind of makes you feel like
you're a bit important.
You know?
They are.
Yeah.
It's like wow, they wanna takethe time to get to know me as a

(09:04):
person cuz we didn't talk aboutthe role at all, you know, for
the two, three hours that wewere out at dinner.
so yeah, that stuck with me andyeah, I thought that was fun.

Pat (09:13):
that's interesting.
For those of you keeping scoreat home I did not get Wind to
dine at Evolve Ip That was noton the cards on the Bingo card
for that one.
But no I would say that'sprobably one of my interviews as
well.
At of all, it was a small team,you know, that I was a part of.
And at the time the boss wasreally cool.
He was open.
He was a hands-on boss.

(09:35):
He knew what he was doing, youknow, and he basically was the
team.
He was that department before hebuilt the team out.
you know, people underneath himthat kind of thing.
So, he really knew his technicalstuff and I learned a lot from
him from, you know, from just,you know, different you know,
walks of life in the trade, youknow, tricks of the trade,
things of that nature.
He was really a, and that waslike my first, I don't wanna say

(09:57):
first it job, cause I've hadprevious ones before that, but
that, I feel like that one wasreally where the ladder

Alex (10:02):
That was the big

Pat (10:03):
yeah.
That was the big one.
That was the big one.
That really like catapulted mycareer and the, you know, kind
of sprung me up the ladder quitequick.
So,

Alex (10:11):
It's like, Hey, I'm an engineer now.
Hey.

Pat (10:13):
it was one of those like, you almost feel like you belong,
right?
It's one of those kind of deals.
And it was really, you know, itwas really good.
And Alex, you know, we workedhard, play hard

Alex (10:22):
I guess now the fun part.

Pat (10:24):
Yeah, the fun part.
the bad ones,

Alex (10:27):
wants to go first?
Well, you probably have morepractice than anybody in this
room.

Pat (10:32):
Yeah, Yeah.
I'll go.
one really comes to mind and Iwon't name any names.

Alex (10:38):
Yes.
Let's not name names

Pat (10:40):
no, naming names.
Funny story.
One of, one of their offices isright across the parking lot
from where I work now, literallyit's the next building over.
But anyway they had a, they hadan opening for a network
engineer at the time.
And this was relatively recent,I wanna say within the last
three or four years.
And they, I don't know, they,

Alex (11:03):
Yeah.

Pat (11:04):
I got on a call with my Wouldbe boss.
Well, fir, first of all, I madeit past the HR screening.
The lady, I forget her name.
But she basically forwarded myinformation on and this was
during the Covid era, so it wasall remote.
So, we got on the Zoom call withmy Wouldbe boss and a VP at the
time.
And it just, it didn't jive likeright from the start.

(11:26):
Like, it just felt weird.
It felt stuffy.
There was no, like, there was nopersonality to the interview, if
you know what I mean.
Like, it's just a, you know,just a question.
And it felt like a businesstransaction, but it was you
know, they should be more thanthat, right?
They should have at least somesort of lifeblood to them.
This one didn't, it was justkind of stuffy and and so I was
trying to make small talk and itjust wasn't happening.

(11:49):
And I mean, personally, I thinkmy personality is kind of, you
know, you know, out there.
And try to.
You know, I'm easy to talk toand whatever.
This guy, the person was justlike, eh, whatever.
And then so, so, and the worstpart about it is I literally
spent 20 minutes on that callwith the, my boss and the v and
the VP just rereading my resume.

(12:10):
It's like, they didn't even readit at all.
I was just like, all right,what's going on here?
like, this is just not whatever.
Like, it's just a waste of time.
So got through the whole thingand they were like, yeah, do you
have any questions for us?
And I did.
And I struck a nerve with aquestion So, cuz I knew at that
point I knew this wasn't goinganywhere, so I was like I just,
whatever.

(12:30):
So, at the time they were notdoing so well financially due to
the covid things and and it'snot like it was a secret.
It was in the, you know, it wasin the papers in our area and
whatnot.
So it's not like I got somethird hand information.
It was spewing it out there.
So they were going through somehardships and some money issues
and this and that.
And I basically said, look, Isaid, I don't want to be, you

(12:52):
know, you guys are, you know,quote unquote bleeding money and
you know, if you guys go up forsale or you know, somebody else
buys you out, whatever.
I was like, I don't wanna belast one hired, first one fired.
Like, that's generally how itgoes, right?
And so I don't want that tohappen.
And they like, they took likemonster offense to that.
They were like, oh, that neverhappens.
We do it on merit and blah blah,blah, blah, blah.

(13:14):
And I was just like, okay,whatever, blah, blah, blah.
And they're like, well, youknow, we're not actually looking
for, we're not actually lookingfor a buyout.
We're looking for a partner,blah, blah.
And I'm thinking to myself like,are in a partnership actually.
Two companies bringing somethingof value to the table.
Like, like literally you're justbringing debt to the table, like
So that was, you know, that kindof thing.

(13:35):
So it was just a weirdinterview.
Like they didn't really seeminterested to have me, like they
were just kind of going throughthe motions, this, that, and the
next, and it was just a veryawkward thing.
And then, you know, thequestions that I had for them,
they weren't really, I don'tthink they were really prepared
for they were just kind ofexpecting someone to just kind
of roll over and say, okay, no,I'm good.
Thanks.
Have a nice day sort of thing.
And I didn't, and I think Icaught'em off guard and that

(13:57):
didn't bode too well for meeither.
So that was a bad one.
And the other one, I don't wannasay it's, it was bad, but it
was, I sh like, looking back atit now, I sh that should have
been a red flag for me.
This one was in person, this wasbefore the Covid days.
This one was in person.
And I went into the interviewmet with my boss and.
you know, it was a niceconversation, you know, that

(14:19):
sort of thing.
And then, but like what reallystruck me is was they kept
looking at their watch likecouple of minutes.
So like they had an Apple watchon, so I'm assuming that they
were looking at emails cominginto their watch like, okay,
like I'm literally sitting at around table from you, like less
than two feet away.
And like, so it's supernoticeable that I'm watching you

(14:41):
look at your watch stare, youknow, look, glance at your watch
every like 30 seconds to aminute.
Like, am I tying you up?
Am I holding you up?
Like, is there something elseyou'd rather be doing?
Because you know, you know,like, I didn't think much of it
at the time, but now lookingback, I'm like, yeah, that was
kind of a red flag.
I should have known better.
Yeah.
That kind of deal.
But it is what it is.
And you just, you learn fromdifferent experiences and people

(15:03):
have different interview stylesand you're gonna meet people
from all walks of life and howthey do things and you know, you
just chalk it up to for the nextinterview, making sure that you
see some things coming or how tohandle'em next time.
So those are my two quoteunquote bad ones.
Put it that way.

Alex (15:20):
well, I guess I'll have two that I'll talk about also,
and then I have some questionsfor you guys based on those.

Pat (15:26):
man.

Alex (15:26):
And I know we said we won't name names, but in this
case I will.

Pat (15:30):
Oh,

Alex (15:30):
we're not big enough that.
That's ever gonna get on theirradar, right.
the first one was Facebook orMeta.
I'll talk about them and I knowwe talked about this a little
bit before we started recording,but I feel like anyone who goes
into an interview, if you're theinterviewer, like you're

(15:51):
interviewing somebody that youshould feel like it's a two-way
street.
Obviously you're interviewing acandidate cuz you want someone
on the team, but you should alsothink about it on the other way
around as the candidate has alegitimate interest in this.
There it's a lot of their time.
so you both should get somethingout of us.
so with Facebook, the reasonthat I didn't care for that
interview is it's a multipleinterview process, which is

(16:14):
fine.
and you know, this managementrole, so that just comes with
the territory.
But what disappointed me aboutthis role, and I think it's a, a
meta just standard for the mostpart, is you don't speak to
people that are gonna be on yourteam.

(16:35):
it's really common for them tojust interview you and then find
a place to put you in, which is,I, that's just how many open
roles they had at the point.
At that point.
But I think that it's not agreat situation because one of
the things if I'm interviewingthat I'm really interested in is
I wanna know who I'm gonna work

Pat (16:54):
Sure.

Alex (16:55):
I mean, you can on paper, you can have the best job, you
know, something that just fitsyou to a T.
But I wanna know the five or sixpeople that I'm gonna be
spending in the next maybedecade of my life, 40 hours a
week, spending time with.
And I just did not care forthat.
So I was talking to.
engineers who were not evennetwork engineers.

(17:15):
And again, this is for a networkengineering manager role.
So I'm speaking to engineersthat aren't even network
engineers.
And then I'm speaking to amanager who was some type of
network engineering thing, buthe wouldn't, he wasn't my hiring
manager.
So again, I can't, I don't haveany FaceTime with whoever I'm
going to work with and in mycase, who's gonna work for me

(17:39):
and who I'm gonna work for.
And that really kinda struck anerve with me.
It just feels like, you'd begoing into it a little bit blind
at this point.
I feel like they get all theinformation they feel like they
need, cuz they have their set upthe way they need to and I'm
hashing out an asking'em all thequestions they need.
But yeah, I'm kind of left inthe dark because a lot of the

(18:00):
questions that I ask when I'minterviewing.
you can't answer unless you'reon the team.
I'm like, I really am kind ofcurious, what they, like someone
who's gonna end up reporting tome.
One of the questions I likeasking right off the bat is what
they like least about the job.
And I can't really ask questionslike that.
and for the person who's gonnabe my boss, who I'm gonna report

(18:24):
to, I ask, I like asking similarquestions.
I like to get their thoughts onwhat they'd like to see
accomplished.
so say I'm at the company sixmonths, what do you wanna see
happen in the next six months?
And you can't really get thoseanswers from anybody, but you
know the person that is gonna beyour boss.
So yeah, wasn't a huge fan ofthat.

(18:45):
And then the other one wasAmazon and anyone who's done an
Amazon interview, Is gonna knowwhat I mean?
the loop I think is ridiculous.
I'm sorry, I hope this doesn'tend up, biting me someday if I
wanna apply for Amazon again.
but after your initialinterview, it's such a long

(19:06):
interview process.
I think you have an initialinterview with the recruiter,
which is pretty straightforward.
That's not bad.
Then you have a, an interviewwith, oh, I forget what they
call them, pushers or somethinglike, you know, another name for
someone, one of their betteremployees.
Again, not someone that's gonna,you're gonna work with or is

(19:29):
your hiring manager, but justsomeone who's a, who they deem
is an exceptional employee,interviews you.
Then after that, you have theloop, which is a six to eight
hour interview, where you haveto, you have multiple sessions
with multiple people throughoutthe entire day.

Pat (19:49):
Wow,

Alex (19:51):
So when I did mine, mine, I had, again, a interview with a
recruiter, interview with one ofthese exceptional employees.
Then I think the whole thing wasseven hours with a lunch in the
middle.
You get a lunch break.
they schedule you a lunch breakand each interview was, yeah,
just different people and notalways one person, like, one
will be two people that aredoing it at the same time, and

(20:13):
then it'll be a single personand another two people, and then
another person.
And I'm not sure if it was justwith me, but I, it's probably
the case you end up speaking tosomeone in hr, and they asked
the questions that maybe Ishould appreciate more as a
manager, but I really don't.
And I think part of the reason Idon't care for these questions,

(20:34):
these types of behavioralquestions, is, I don't wanna say
they give you the answers forthem, but.
The recruitment process forAmazon is so odd that the
recruiter who's working withyou, and this isn't just me, cuz
I interviewed with them twice intwo different, situations.
I've talked to people who'veworked there and have had

(20:55):
interviews, but they reallyalmost coach you in how they
want you to answer the question,which seems very
counterintuitive to me if you,if they, it's almost like you're
just seeing who can study themost and who can.

Pat (21:08):
Pass the test sort of deal.
Yeah.

Alex (21:10):
Yeah.
I don't want to, I want, I feellike you're not gonna get anyone
who's genuine in these becausethey don't, it's almost like
they don't want you to begenuine.
They want you to say, this ishow I want you to structure your
answer.

Pat (21:20):
right.

Alex (21:22):
And I feel like when you do that, what you end up getting
is scripted answers, which isalmost what they want.

Pat (21:29):
Sure.

Alex (21:29):
Or you get answers.
Or you get questions, you getanswers to questions that aren't
anywhere close to what theywant.

Pat (21:36):
right.

Alex (21:37):
Um, other way.
Yeah.
Not a huge fan of the AmazonLoop interview to say the

Pat (21:43):
six to eight hours.
Man, I don't wanna do anythingfor six to eight hours.

Alex (21:47):
it seems like, are they doing that, are they really
gaining that much from this orare they trying to weed out
people who are serious?
I don't know, but, um, and maybeit worked out well for me, but
this, this latest time where,you know, I was laid off at,
PlayStation.
I was looking around, of courseAmazon always has roles.
So I reached out to therecruiter that I worked with

(22:09):
previously when I ended upchoosing the PlayStation role.
And, they were already happywith me for the previous time
that I interviewed, and she toldme that, she doesn't think that
I would have to do another loopinterview, cause this is, I
don't, it was only atPlayStation seven months, before
I was laid off.

(22:30):
So she said, how about we justhave you speak to your, hiring
manager?
And I had a great interview witha hiring manager, at Amazon.
I was feeling good about it andI saw he responded back saying,
we'd like to move forward withAlex.
And then like a week later, therecruiter gets back to me and

(22:52):
says that we're actually gonnahave to do a, another loop
interview.
I said, I just did one sevenmonths ago.
Have I really changed that much?

Pat (23:01):
ugh.

Alex (23:02):
And it's one of those things where I would have.
Done it.
If I had nothing else lined up.
But at this point, I already hadan offer from Disney.
I said, no, I'm not doing it.
Nope.
I'll just take the offer fromDisney.
I'm not gonna make them sit andthen

Pat (23:17):
Yeah.
Potentially lose it or whatever.

Alex (23:19):
So, yeah.
so it all worked

Pat (23:21):
that's, interesting.
yeah, that's interesting.
Kyle, do you have a bad one,Kyle?

Kyle (23:26):
Not necessarily bad.
I'm sure it's the there's somereason or formula or, you know,
somebody that's way smarter thanme has decided that this is how
you interview people.
But, you know, when it comes tosome of those really obscure,
like problem solving questionsand stuff, like, you know, how
would you tie your shoe with onehand, you know, turn around and

(23:47):
explain it to me, kind of deallike that.
I, I had weird things like thatand it's like, you know, like,
well, you kind of loop it, youknow, like, but.
Other than that, I mean, youknow, I worked at the same place
for so long.
I really never had all that manyinterviews.

Pat (24:02):
Yeah, that's true.
I forgot about that.
That's true.
Kyle's a homebody.

Kyle (24:07):
Yeah.
I was just hanging out.
I didn't know what I was missingout here in the world.

Pat (24:12):
Kyle and I went to school together and then he just
basically moved upstairs to theactual help desk and never left

Kyle (24:17):
That was it.

Pat (24:20):
He's like, I'm just gonna hang here and hope somebody
gives me something to

Kyle (24:22):
that's it.

Pat (24:23):
that's what happened.
He's like, oh yeah, you overthere.
You look like you belong.
Can you go fix this printer?
And you're like, he's like,okay.
Sure.

Kyle (24:31):
I just stayed there and then they started giving me a
paycheck.

Pat (24:33):
right.
He just morphed.
He just morphed his name ontoonto the payroll.
He's like, oh, yep.
No, I hear you.
Yeah I'm not a huge fan of, likeI said, some of the gatekeeping,
and I think we'll kind of touchon this now a little bit, but
some of the gatekeeping thatgoes on in this industry, and
I'm sure other industries aswell.

(24:54):
I don't know if that's by designto kind of weigh out the, or I
should say weed out the mentallyweak or whatever, like, you
know, that kind of thing or whatthe deal is.
But there is just some massivesome massive issues.
And I personally, I think thehiring process across the board
is broken and severe you know,severe ways, if you will.
So, You know, like you kind oftalk to the HR person first as

(25:17):
sort of like a gatekeeper tomake sure you're not like a
serial killer or anything likethat.
And then she passes you on, youknow, that sort of thing.
But like as technical people,and I'm speaking for my, for
myself, I have a technical mind.
So when somebody wants tointerview me about a technical
role, I'm going to talktechnical.
But then when you first got onwith the HR lady, she, or man,

(25:40):
she is not technical.
She, he or she is not technical.
So you have to kind of learn howto speak in that language.
So you're, Your conversationwith them rises to the top and
it's good enough for them toforward you on, you know, sort
of thing.
So, I mean, I get why they doit.
I'm not a huge fan of it and I'malso not a huge fan of, like,

(26:02):
Alex, I, you know, maybe Iunderstand a little bit more in
your area, but, you know, cuzyou're working for the big tech
and a couple of those at the topof the charts, but like these
companies that have like six,eight rounds of interviews,
you're like, what?
Like it's just what are wedoing?
Like, it's just, it's awful.
Like I could see maybe three,like first with hr, then with

(26:26):
your boss, and then with theteam, and then maybe another
like three, four max, like threeis even pushing it, you know,
that kind of thing.
But like, these companies thathave like six, eight rounds of
interviews is like what?
Like what is going on here?
Like if you can't pick an actualcandidate by round.
Three.
Like this isn't for you likeknow what I mean?

(26:49):
Like maybe you shouldn't beinterviewing people.
It's just, it's insanity.
How many rounds they go on.
And like you said, people aremul interviewing for multiple
positions.
So like there, there's ajuggling act that needs to
happen.
So like, you may like this jobbetter, but they're putting you
through more hoops, but you havean offer from someone else and
things move so fast that offer'sonly good for so long.

(27:11):
And then you keep people waitingon the shelf, that offer ain't
gonna go.
You know what I mean?
That offer's not gonna be there.
I don't know.
You have any thoughts on that,Alex

Alex (27:19):
Oh yeah, for sure.
I mean, because.
Like you said, I come across it,offers, I think most of the
offers I have say, you know, yougot 48 hours to accept this, and
if you don't, you're asking foran extension.
If you're asking, if you startedasking for an extension, not
only do they not have thegranite, but I think in some
ways they're starting to, youknow, worry about your

(27:41):
commitment to the company.
Do you really wanna work withus?
If you want to, if you'rekeeping your options open.
And I know that's kind of atricky situation to maneuver
through.
y yeah, I think what you said,three makes sense.
so talking about that, I mean,what's the most that you've ever
had to do?

Pat (27:58):
I'd probably say the majority of my interviews have
been Three.

Alex (28:01):
Three.

Pat (28:02):
In that order.
Right.
HR or some sort of screen personto make sure I'm a real person
and not, you know, some chat G pt bot or whatever, And then, The
second interview is with thehiring manager.
You know what my would bemanager.
And then third is usually withthe team, or at least, you know,
maybe one or two other peoplefrom the team, depending on how

(28:23):
big the team is.
That, that's probably it.
And then they'll, you know, theyusually say, yay, you're nay,
you know, based off of that.
So I would probably say three isthe sweet spot where most of
mine have been.
But you know, some have onlybeen at one.
And then the first one's withthe hiring manager, and that's
it, right Outta gate.
It's yay Renee.
But most of them are three.
That's probably the sweet spot,

Alex (28:42):
Now, if you're counting the Amazon Loop interview as
one, because it's one schedulejust six hours long, if you
don't count that as one, thenthat's the most, but,
PlayStation was a lot.
That was recruiter.
Hiring manager panel one, whichthree or four engineers, people

(29:03):
that would report to me, panel,two senior engineers that would
report to me, follow upinterview with my hiring
manager.
Then it was an interview with acolleague, so another manager.
Then it was my boss's boss,

Pat (29:22):
Wow.

Alex (29:23):
So I don't know how many that was.
I wasn't counting, but there is,that's a lot.

Pat (29:26):
That is a

Alex (29:27):
Think that's six.
Six or seven.

Pat (29:29):
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Kyle (29:31):
that's crazy.

Pat (29:32):
Yeah.
The other red flag too, that Icome across quite a bit is if
you're just looking purely atthe job descriptions or the
responsibilities of the role.
You know, five to seven, maybeeight bullets are reasonable,
you know, bullet points, thatkind of thing.
Anything more than eight, likeeight to 12, eight to 13 is

(29:54):
probably pushing it.
anything after like 12 or 13 isjust crazy.
It's just like, okay, you know,if you're gonna list something
with 23 responsibilities, likefirst of all, how is one person
supposed to manage all that andtwo, you know, and on one salary
nonetheless, you know, that,sort of thing.
So you almost have to come intothat with different eyes and
say, okay, what are they tryingto get away with as far as, you

(30:16):
know, from a company, you know,perspective and they're trying
to put things on one person whenreally there should be a whole
IT team doing those things.
And then obviously, you know,from the money factor, they're
trying to get away with as muchas they can for as little as
they can.
So, you know, Greek comes intoit and you know, all that kind
of thing.
So, like I said, I think, youknow, eight is probably the
sweet spot as far asresponsibilities on the actual

(30:38):
job description.
12, you're kind of pushing it.
Anything more than 12.
It's like you need multiplepeople for that cuz the, it's
just unrealistic.
And I think that's the, that's abig one too, cuz I think I see a
long laundry list and it's like,okay, like chop this in half and
maybe we'll talk, you know, thatkind of thing.
this is just insane.

Alex (30:58):
Yeah, I guess, uh, up to this point we were just talking
about the interviewsperspective.
so nailing the interview couldbe the other way around, which
is kind of what you're talkingabout now.
If you're the one actuallygiving the interviews, it kind
of starts with, you wanna getthe right candidates to the
interview.
I think you gotta be a bit morerealistic on your job
description.
one of the things that I've donein the last few jobs that I had

(31:18):
where I was looking foremployees is, I gave several
skill sets, so maybe 12 to 15,and I said, you need to be
expert level or something, ordepending on the, whether it was
senior or not, or I would sayyou need to have experience at
least five of.

Kyle (31:34):
Oh.

Alex (31:35):
pick the five.
So I don't care.
I realize that, you know, so inthis case, sure, if you come
with somebody comes to the tablewith all 15 of those, okay,
sure.
But I don't want to, I don'twant good candidates to be
discouraged because they maynever have done anything with
technology X, Y, Z, but they're,you know, they're just
incredible at the other five.

(31:55):
And based on just a conversationor two or maybe their work
history, you can kind of feelpretty confident that they can
pick things up pretty quickly.
for anyone who's doinginterviews, if you're also
responsible for jobdescriptions, consider doing
that.
Make it very obvious, because Ithink most of them, if they list

(32:17):
15 skill sets, the wording willsay, you know, you need to be an
expert in these, or you need tobe familiar with these.
But in reality, I think mostpeople just want.
A third or half of'em.
So if that really is the case,might as well just come right
out and say that.

Pat (32:32):
right?
Yeah, I agree.
I agree with everything you justsaid.
It just seems to kind of go onand yeah, you gotta, I mean,
you're not gonna know everythingabout even an avenue in this
industry cuz there's just somuch out there.
So you just kind of, like yousaid, pick five, pick six,
whatever.
And then, you know, you sort oflearn the rest of them along the

(32:53):
way, you know, if you will.
So I feel like that's a goodone.
So, and that comes back, I thinkwe said a few weeks ago, like,
you know, look, if you don'thave, if you don't check every
box on the requirements applyanyway.
Why not?
You know what I mean?
It's just, who cares?
Just apply anyway.
And you know, some, you know,they'll take a chance on you or
they won't.
And that's just it.

(33:13):
So, you know, but I wouldn't letnot checking every box stop me
from applying because then youdidn't ever know, like, oh,
could I have made it up in someother avenue or some other skill
that, you know that theywould've bent the knee a little
bit on, on hiring me, you know,for that particular spot.
So, yeah would never let thatdiscourage me from applying.
Now if you're like way out ofthere, like if you're way outta

(33:33):
line, I get it.
But like couple things here andthere.
the heck.
Would that apply?

Kyle (33:39):
so are you guys telling me you don't like duties as
assigned?

Pat (33:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Kyle (33:45):
for you?

Pat (33:46):
Yeah.
That means scrubbing floors.
No, you're correct.
I do not like that.

Alex (33:51):
Yeah.
One of the things PlayStationdid and I thought was a decent
idea, and it's something that Iactually suggested at Disney
too, was when you have your veryfirst conversation with the
recruiter, you know when yourresume pass passes, the eye test
anyway, the recruiter willactually.
reach out and give you a morespecific set of skillsets that

(34:14):
was provided by the hiringmanager, cuz that's the
skillsets that the manager'slooking for.
And then they just asked you to,rate yourself one to 10 on all
these different skillset sets.
And it came right out and saidthat you can put zero or one if
you have no experience.
This doesn't exclude you fromthe job or anything like that.
but that was also an interestingway to kind of prep for the

(34:36):
interview, because the way itwas worded was one, you have
little to no knowledge of it andrate yourself a 10 if you could
write an RFC on it, I think wasexactly how it's worded.

Pat (34:44):
Huh?

Alex (34:44):
so that actually helped me when I was giving interviews at
PlayStation because if someonecame in and maybe they have a
few technologies listed on theirresume, but might be a little
difficult to.
Gauge their comfort level.
Maybe if they rate, you know,said that they completely
architected some technologycould deduce that they're
supposed to be an expert inthat.

(35:05):
But, with this, if someone put a10 on two, three technologies, I
mean, get ready for somequestions on

Kyle (35:13):
Right

Pat (35:13):
Yeah.
Right, Right, Yep.
No, I hear you.
I have two more sort of, kind ofwhen you're looking over a job,
and then we'll move on to theactual tips of, you know, kind
of be, you know, in theinterview process itself.
I'll take your, I'll take yourthoughts on this guys.
One, do you look at the tenureof, or if it's available to you,

(35:35):
do you look at the tenure of theperson that had the job before
you.
and is it a red flag if it'slike a very short tenure, like
say less than a year?
Like is that a red flag to say,okay, why did they leave?
Or maybe even look back topeople and say, okay, look, now
you have two people that leftwithin the first year.
Like there's something with thisposition or something with this
company that just doesn't jiveand it's a constant carousel.

(35:59):
Or is that not a thing in yourmind as far as if it's a good
candidate?

Alex (36:03):
So you're saying if I'm the one that's, I'm the
interviewee and the person thathad the job previously had only
been with the company six

Pat (36:13):
Correct.
Yeah.
Cuz that's one of my questions,like when they say, Hey, do you
have any questions?
At the end I'll say, yeah, howlong was the previous guy or gal
around?
And they're, you know, they sayyay or nay or whatever.
Maybe just a short LinkedInsearch as far as, you know,

Alex (36:25):
yeah.
I was gonna say maybe someLinkedIn spying.
You

Pat (36:27):
yeah.
That kind of thing.
Like, does it make you nervousto, to know that the previous
person was only there a yearless?

Alex (36:34):
Yeah, I guess I don't really think about it too much.
One question I always ask, whichis somewhat similar as I say,
why is this position

Pat (36:42):
Yep.

Alex (36:42):
cuz I'm curious if it is, if I am replacing someone and
then

Pat (36:46):
That's a great

Alex (36:47):
turn in, turn into some questions and follow up.
but a lot of the answers I getis just growth, you know, or
this is a new role.
I mean, I've gotten that plentyof times.
Yeah.
So I guess to answer yourquestion, no it's not something
that really comes to mind rightaway is to understand if I am
replacing someone, how longthey've been around or even why

(37:07):
they left.
I guess I don't think about thattoo much.
Maybe I should

Pat (37:10):
Eh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
Just something to think about orsomething to put on somebody's
radar and you know, cuz if it'sa, if it's a, if it's a rotating
door, then that's, you know,that should definitely be a red
flag.
of some sort.
Kyle, this one's for you.
Do you think it's a red flag ifthey don't post the salary in
the actual, not necessarily thesalary, but maybe even the range
in the actual job posting?

(37:31):
Is that a red flag to say, oh,you know what, if they're not
upfront enough to throw a salaryrange at me am I gonna be doing
the work of 10 people for theprice of one?

Kyle (37:43):
I mean, it's definitely a turnoff for me.
Like if I'm job searching and Isee like this one's at this and
this one's at that, and this onelike doesn't have a range, I'm
like, well, what's the deal?

Pat (37:55):
Skip.
Yeah.

Kyle (37:56):
Right.
Like, like I'm like, I havethese three other ones that are
like right up front.

Pat (38:00):
Right.

Kyle (38:00):
So I'll probably apply to something that actually has a
range that I'm looking for andis kind of just upfront with it.

Pat (38:09):
Yeah.

Kyle (38:09):
Then have to go, you know, searching or go on the first
interview.
Then finally be like, well, whatare we talking here?

Pat (38:18):
Yeah.
No, that's interesting.
I think I usually shy away fromposts that don't have a, at
least a range, right?
So then at least you say you,you know what you're working
with, right?
So you know, cuz that's, youalways get this question.
I've gotten this question everyinterview I've been on, what's
your salary range?
And I hate it because in that,if you if you're telling the

(38:39):
salary first, that means you'reshowing your cards first.
And that, that it's a terribleposition to be in.
So I normally like the salaryright in there.
So then a, they're transparentor at least semi-transparent and
they're semi complying with, youknow, transparency laws wrapped
around that.
You know, but if there's noactual salary there, like if

(39:01):
they're sort of skirting aroundnot having the salary laws, or I
should say the salary in theposting, if they're doing that
in public, then what are theywilling to do in private.
That kind of deal.
So I feel like that's a big one.
I don't know, Alex, you have anythoughts on that,

Alex (39:17):
Well, I think the only reason that they would be
concerned about posting thesalary ranges is if there's huge
discrepancies already within thecompany.
So I feel like if you're notstraightforward with it, it's
because you play that numbergame, within the company.
Yeah, And I think the biggercompanies actually do this
pretty well, cuz you'll hearabout levels.

(39:38):
Like if you're Amazon you'llsee, like an L three, L four, L
five, which is level four orlevel five, level six.
And one of the questions you canask if you know about the,
levels, that's I think is a lot,I don't know, seems a gentler
way than just asking what thesalary is.
You can just ask forconfirmation on the level this

(40:02):
role is

Pat (40:03):
Okay.

Alex (40:04):
and.
Yeah, because Yeah, like I saidearlier, I just think it's the,
any company who is hard pressedto put that in the job
description is because, you'llhave one guy with the same role
that's making 20% less thansomeone else.
And if they put the range in apost thing, people are

(40:26):
immediately gonna say like,well, why am I at the bottom of
this range, And yeah, it wouldbe great if you know your
level's, your level, and if youdo a good job at the company,
you just move up another leveland just, Hey, people realize,
hey, I move, I got promoted to alevel eight.
You know what salary band I'm inbecause of that.

Pat (40:45):
right.
yeah, That's interesting cuzlike if you're a smaller team,
right?
And you know, you know, there's.
Round rounds of hiring coming,right?
You need help in yourdepartment, whatever it is.
Like, you know, that posting'sgonna be out there and if you're
making dollar X and you'relooking at this posting, you
know, it's for your departmentand they're offering 20% more,

(41:07):
but you both have the sametitles and et cetera, et cetera,
I think that would cause someriff within the actual team.
Right?
Because then it's a numbersgame, like you said.
Right?

Alex (41:17):
and I think that's what happens.
Times are good and you're justso short of staff because you
just, you know, company'sgrowing so quick and you're just
willing to pay more now to quickfill that role, and it's kind of
hurts the people that have beenthere

Pat (41:33):
Yeah.

Alex (41:34):
and.

Pat (41:34):
that's a good point.
That's a good point.
Anything else on that homefront?
If not we'll wrap it to theactual tips of sitting in a room
and interviewing

Alex (41:44):
well, I'll just say you asked if it's a red flag.
I'll say that it's actually nota red flag to me cuz this, I'm
at this point I'm so accustomedto not seeing it that I'm almost
shocked when I do see

Pat (41:54):
oh, wow.
Okay.

Alex (41:55):
and at this point, the bigger the company, and by
bigger I mean like the number ofemployees, I think there's
enough resources online that youcan get a pretty good idea of
what people are making for theseroles.
So, I mean, that's not assimple.
If you know, a 50 person companythat might only have one person
that's ever had the same role asyou, but if you go to like a

(42:18):
Meta or an Amazon and they haveliterally tens of thousands of L
four engineers, you can see whatan L four engineer

Pat (42:28):
Makes, right,

Alex (42:29):
easily.

Pat (42:29):
right.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, so I was kind of, I wantedto throw that in there as far as
some red flags that I know I'veseen personally, or some of
them, you know, some of the redflags that that I like to look
for in a posting.
Cause that can really weed out alot of your, a lot of your job
searches, depending on if youfind those red flags or not.
So, I'm gonna flip the script alittle bit here.

(42:50):
Now.
Let's go, let's say, okay,you're actually in, all right,
so you got past the HR manager,you're onto the hiring manager,
and you're in a Zoom or you'rein a room talking about the
actual job.
I don't know.
I'll open it up to you guysfirst.
Any sort of tips that are yoursort of number one or two or
anything that kinda leaps out atyou guys to try to ease and kind

(43:13):
of nail it?
Kyle, why don't you start.

Alex (43:15):
and remember, he hasn't done a lot of

Kyle (43:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was gonna say Alex, why don'tyou go first and

Alex (43:20):
I just winging the hope for the best

Kyle (43:22):
Yeah.

Pat (43:23):
throwing it out there.
Hoping the boomerang comes back.

Kyle (43:26):
Yep.

Alex (43:27):
well I guess you already said that you're at the point
where the hiring manager, but Ithink it starts a little bit
before that and preparing forthat.
so I just try to come inprepared so I look at that job
description as best I can andhope that job description is
actually what I'm being asked todo and I just brush up on

(43:49):
everything that's in that jobdescription.
and I might look for if they saythey're big on technology, X, y,
z, I might just take a gander atwhat's the current state of that
technology.
Is there a vendor that's kind ofleading the way?
Is there something that's kindof new and different that some
people are trying and.

(44:09):
Not only do I hope to speakintelligently about it with the,
you know, assumption that thehiring manager's gonna ask about
it, but, I can also come off asbeing legitimately interested in
this technology, which Igenerally am.
so I think that's important.
I know a lot of jobs will ask, Idon't know what the star method

(44:30):
situation.
Oh, I forget what that all is.
The idea is they'll kind of askyou to give them an example of,
something that you've done inthe past that exemplifies
something.
So either way, I try to think ofmaybe four to five different

(44:52):
situations in my careers thatkind of really highlight my
strengths and some of theexperiences that I have.
And again, this is prepping forthe interview.
I just.
I don't wanna sound off like I'mcoming off a script, but I know
those stories well, I know whythey highlight what I'm good at
and I try to make sure thatthose examples that I can think

(45:14):
of that I can speak to them,right off the bat.
I don't need 30 seconds to likestop and think of an example.
And then I can also, I don'twanna say tailored cuz that
makes it sound like I'm lyingabout it, but I can also, I can
focus on specific parts of thesesituations to answer several
different questions that theymay ask.

(45:36):
Hopefully that makes sense.
So I think that's all talkingabout, just prep work prior to
that interview.
So maybe we should go aroundreal quick and see if there's
any other prep tips people havebefore we get into other things
you might be able to do duringthe actual interview.

Pat (45:53):
Yeah, I would say,

Alex (45:55):
pat?
Anything else?

Pat (45:56):
yeah, I would say, you know, more that you know,
investigative you know, kind ofthing, knowing the company
you're interviewing for whatthey do how they, obviously how
they make their money you know,things of that nature because
nothing is worse than going inthere in, in an actual
interview, actually getting oneand going in there and going, oh
yeah, what do you guys do Like,that just doesn't seem, you know

(46:17):
what I mean?
And like, you'd be fascinatedhow many people actually do
that.
you know, they just have no ideawhat the, actually, what the
company actually does.
So I would say a lot of your alot of your work is gonna come
before you even step in the roomfrom a you know, from a
knowledge perspective, right?
So, you know, again, know asmuch as you can about the

(46:37):
company.
LinkedIn is your friend, right?
And we talk about this on theshow all the time.
If you don't have a LinkedInaccount, get one.
You know, look up the company.
Cause I think, you know, mostcompanies now have a LinkedIn
social media profile that, youknow, you can kind of, you can
get all kinds of information offof that.
And then, you know, look at thepeople like who, who's employed

(46:58):
there, what do they do?
You know, possibly find yourboss and his boss or their boss
or whatever, and kind of, youknow, kind of make a tree, if
you will, of of who you're gonnabe dealing with and interacting
and whatnot.
And then that just helps youmore when the actual interview,
you know, comes, you know, thatsort of thing.
And and sort of coupled withthat, I would say no, the actual
job you're applying for too.

(47:19):
So, what you said, Alex, is, youknow, you're hoping that the
description is accurate andyou're actually applying for
that particular job.
I would, you know, know the jobthat you're applying for ahead
of time, you know, going in, youknow, that sort of thing.
So it just it's trying to.
Do all that recon before youstep in.
And that makes that makes iteven a little easier.

(47:39):
And I'll tell you, I'll tell youa funny, misunderstood story.
Real quick.
I am through my years ofworking, I've made a few friends
at our recruiters and the oneguy recruiter friend of mine,
Dan, he set me up with aninterview at a local msp here in
the area.
And so he thought it'd be a goodfit for it, yada, yada.

(48:00):
And this was way before Covid.
So I went in, sat with, youknow, 3, 4, 5 people, whatever
it was, at a big, you know, bigmeeting table, round table,
whatever you gonna call it.
And like the questions were it.
it.
was good, but it was, it,something felt off, it was just
off enough to be like, oh wow.
Like, like I went in thereexpecting, okay, this is a route

(48:23):
switch, net peer networkingrole.
But then they came off asking melike a lot of voice q os things
around that, you know, makingpolicies and things of that
nature.
And I'm thinking that's odd tobe asking that heavily questions
you know, from a route switchguy and expecting him to know
voice ucas, all those sorts ofdeals.

(48:44):
So I, you know, say, okay,thanks, you know, thanks for
your time.
I was there an hour plus,whatever it was.
Thanks for your time, blah,blah, blah.
Go in there.
So I called Dan on the way home.
I said, yeah, I said it, it wentwell.
I thought, you know, everybodywas real nice and it seems like
a good fit.
And I was like, it just seemsodd that they asked me a lot of
voice questions as a guy knowingthat they were, I was coming in
for more of a traditional.

(49:05):
Route switch position.
He said, yeah, that is kind ofodd.
So he, oh, let me, you know,whatever.
So he goes, let me get feedbackfrom their end and we'll see
where we're at.
Okay.
So he calls me back the, like acouple, like a day later.
He's like, oh.
He goes, you'll never believewhat happened.
I said, well, he goes, youactually interviewed for the
wrong position.
And I was like, wrong position.
He's like, I'm like, what do youmean wrong position?

(49:27):
He goes, they had two positionsopen a voice position and a
route switch position.
And he goes, but, and he goes, Ihad you lined up for the route
switch one but ti between thetime, like that waiting time of,
you know, like it was like acouple days or whatever by the
time the thing was actually setand by the time I was ready to
show up he goes, they pulled theroute switch position off the

(49:49):
table.
And so I went in there, theythought I was there for voice,
and when I was originally toldit was for a round switch, you
know, position.
I ended up not getting theposition which is fine.
There was no fault of anybody.
It was just a weird timing thingthat, like, they pulled the
route switch position off thetable in that like window that I

(50:10):
was, you know, kind of scheduledto show up and do it.
So they thought I was there fora voice interview and I was
there for a route switch one.
So it was just an interestinginterview story that happened a
few years ago.
It was yeah, so I would say, youknow, know the job you're
applying for or know the job youthink you're applying for you
know, that kind of But yeah Iwould say most of your legwork
comes before you even step inthe room with the people that

(50:31):
you're gonna step in the roomwith.
And that just, the moreknowledge you have going in
there, the easier it is thatthat, that interview has a
chance of succeeding.

Kyle (50:39):
Yeah, definitely.
I was gonna say I mean for megoing back to what Alex and you
were saying about preparing, youknow, do your research.
I mean, obviously I went fromhigher ed to higher ed, so that
didn't really change too much.
But I worked on a bunch ofquestions to ask cuz you know
it's an interview both ways.
You kind of wanna make sureyou're a good fit for them and

(51:00):
they're a good fit for you.
So.
I worked all that out down aweeks prior to, to even
interviewing.
Once they were kind of like, allright, let's set up an interview
here.

Pat (51:11):
Yeah, I'm interested to see like what what are some good
questions to bring and I'll openit up to the audience there too.
Hit us up on, on our socials andTwitter or email us, whatever.
What are some questions that youlike to ask to the company?
Because that Kyle brings up agreat point.
It's just as much an interviewfor them as it is for, as it is
for you from a fit perspective.
I think so.
I always bring good questionsyou know, that kind of thing.

(51:32):
It's like, all right, who's yourdaddy and what does he do?
No, I'm just kidding.
I, you know, I always try tobring good questions and again,
center him around the business,right?
You know, at the end of the day,we're there to work for the
business and for the business tomake money.
So you sort of center themaround, you know, how the
business makes their money youknow, in, in that fashion.
So again, I always try to.

(51:53):
I always try to ask thequestion, you know, why is this
position open?
How long was the previous personthere for?
You know, what does a typicalday look like?
Is there on call involved?
That sort of thing.
So, it's an interesting I alwayslove to bring good questions.

Alex (52:08):
So how about tips for during, there's a few things
that I think make sense and Kylejust mentioned that, I guess you
can almost say it's prep too.
But, if you realize that it's atwo-way street and you go into
the interview, with thementality that this isn't just

(52:28):
for the employer, it's for you.
You should gain something fromthis,

Pat (52:32):
hundred percent.

Alex (52:32):
then I think you're gonna have a better interview.
And I think you're, you mighteven be more confident and it's
hard to call this a tip, butit's maybe something you should
work on.
And if you're really seriousabout landing a job, it's
probably not a bad idea to, Idon't wanna say you want to, you
know, stage it out with somebodycuz maybe that's a little

(52:53):
excessive.
But maybe you should try gettingon a zoom with somebody and
maybe just taking an effort tolike look at your body language
and see how you presentyourself.
Maybe even record your having aconversation.
I mean, we have a podcast so wecan hear ourselves talk all the
time, but I think people wouldbe surprised if you just

(53:14):
recorded a conversation that youhad with somebody.
Even if it's just a phone call,just listen to yourself.
Speak for 30 minutes and maybeyou'd be shocked by a lot of the
ums or it's just the pauses thatyou may have

Pat (53:27):
I'm an um, guy all day.

Alex (53:30):
Yeah, it's not, there's people that are a lot worse for
sure.
And I think one thing that I'venoticed, listening to the
podcast and, doing a lot ofinterviews with people, and one
of the things that kind of turnsme off for a candidate who's
interviewing me is I've seen allparts of the spectrum with how

(53:50):
they speak.
So anywhere from a really softspoken person, that's kind of
tough to understand to somebodywho's going a hundred miles a
minute and people.
That don't know when to stop.
That was one of the, one of theworst interviews that I've ever,
I was the interviewer in theinterview.

(54:12):
One of the worst ones that I hadwas a candidate that just didn't
know when to stop.
Cuz there were so many otherquestions that I wanted to ask,
but every question that I askedturned into a five minute
answer.
It seemed

Pat (54:22):
Oh no,

Alex (54:23):
I'm, I'm glad I probably would take that over someone
who's just a one word answer.
but yeah, there, there's abalance and I think if people
would listen to themselvesspeak, they probably realize
that I think they'd be shocked.
So, I guess the tip there is, ifyou can, that's more prep work,
but maybe get an idea of how youdo speak and just show up

(54:44):
confident knowing that theinterview is for you two.
And that will stand out forsure.

Pat (54:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, I would agree.
I, and I think sorted a couplewith that as far as, you know,
kind of prepar.
You know, body language and kindof knowing who you are, you
know, from a camera perspective,especially in, you know, today's
age of, you know, a lot ofpeople wanna work from home,
right?
So a lot of interviews are gonnabe over zooms and, you know,
things of that nature.

(55:11):
But I would also try to let yourpersonality shine through in
that cuz I think that's half thebattle as far as, okay, like,
yeah, this.
Really technical, but he's likea drag to be around, you know,
that kind of thing.
So it's like, so it's the otherway around.
Like, okay, like, okay, this guymay not be the best technical
fit, but he's really fun, he'sreally willing to work, and he's

(55:32):
really, you know, he's got the,he's got the tech bug as most of
us seem to have in this field.
So, you know, and so I think,and you know, we talk about it
all the time, like personalitycounts for a lot, right?
EQ is just as important as IQnowadays.
So, you know, if you can letyour personality come through
and you can, you know, peoplewanna go out and have a beer
with you or whatever you know,that I think that counts for a

(55:53):
lot.
May sometimes even more than thetechnical side these days.
So I would say let yourpersonality come through, not be
over aggressive or overbearingand being like, oh my God,
here's another joke.
But like, you know, you gottalet your personality shown.
Yeah.

Alex (56:07):
Yeah.
And I know we brought this up inone of the previous podcasts
that we have about communicationskills in general.
One of the things we'vementioned was knowing your
audience.
So again, that's kind of a hardtip to give, but if you have
that ability to know youraudience, you can, if you're
someone who's good at judging,when someone's accepting of a

(56:28):
joke or when someone's a littlebit more,

Pat (56:30):
Yeah.

Alex (56:31):
I don't wanna call it stern, but you know what I mean,
someone.
don't think a joke would gowell.
So I know knowing theinterviews, they're people too,
and they want to know that theycan work with you.
And I think that does resonate.
certainly makes you stand out.
I know in my last interview withDisney, I had an interview with

(56:51):
a guy and I could, I felt, nowthat I've worked with him
several months, I feel like Iwas right.
bit more laid back guy andsomeone that could take a joke.
And when he asked me at the endif I had any questions, I
realized that he had a, Denveror Kansas City Chief's hat on
his desk.

Pat (57:09):
Oh, that's sacrilegious for you?

Alex (57:11):
and I told him, I said, I'm a diehard Raiders fan, it's
this gonna be a problem.
And I think and you could justtell like how his demeanor
completely changed after that.
I mean, huge smile on his faceand he was ready to talk
football and I think that wassomething that

Pat (57:28):
That's

Alex (57:29):
Yeah.
let your personality shine.
So that was mine.
So they knew right off theget-go that I could crack a joke
and yeah, I'm a big Raiders

Pat (57:35):
a big one.
yeah, no, but in all honesty,right, and I think everybody on
this podcast would agree that,you know, we spend a lot of time
with our team and people on ourteam on, you know, outages,
after hours, maintenance, thingsof that nature.
And if you're all on a Zoom calland it's, you know, it's dry
it's as dry as the Sahara Desertit's not a good time.

(57:55):
Right?
So, you know, I would think youha, you know, you, you need to
know, or I should say you needto be able to, you know, trust
the people around you, you know,have a little bit of a rapport
outside the work walls, if youwill, things of that nature you
have to enjoy.
I mean, you're with thesepeople, sometimes you're with
these people more than you arewith your family, so you have to
enjoy the people that you'rewith, right?

(58:17):
So I think the personalityreally does a whole lot of
service for people that gel moreas a team from a technical and a
personality side of things.

Alex (58:25):
Sure.

Kyle (58:25):
Yeah, definitely.

Alex (58:27):
Well I think then we should probably close off with
some of those good questionsthen, unless there's any other
tips that people can thinkabout.
But one of the best tips we cangive you is make sure you come
prepared with questions.
So I guess let's hear some goodones.
is there any, go-to ones, youalready mentioned a few pat of
ones that

Pat (58:45):
those are

Alex (58:46):
you asked no matter what, right?
I mean, you can't think of asituation where you're not
asking those

Pat (58:50):
No.
Nope.
You know, I mean, the other onetoo that I sort of asked too is
how long has the position beenopen?
Right?
That gives you a general idea ofare they scrounging for people?
Has this really been open thatthey just haven't hit?
Or is it a hot ticket?
It's only been open a week andthey got three candidates
already, you know, that sort ofthing.
So that kind of gives you ageneral idea of the type of job

(59:14):
too depending on how long it'sbeen open, right.
So I think that's important.
You know, you know, is this anew position or is it a backfill
that's a must you know, part ofthe role?
Is it on call?
You know, that sort of thing.
That and I think at the seniorlevel that, that we're at here,
I think on call is just a given,right?
You just you bake it into thejob, you know, that kind of
thing.
At least the last couple I'vehad, I just expect it at this

(59:36):
point.
So maybe not at, you know, thehelp desk level or like a sock
or, you know, things of thatnature.
You know, but yeah the higher upthe ladder you go is definitely
the on-call is definitely inplay as far as for just an
expectation sort of thing.
So, yeah, I asked that one.
Yeah, th those are the kind ofthe core ones that I, you know,
that I come out and see, youknow, what kind of reaction I
get to that and, you know, kindof go from there.

(59:56):
Like you said, you know,depending on the reaction could
spur more questions on that,

Alex (01:00:01):
I guess don't feel like you have to only ask the
questions that you've comeprepared for.
I mean, legitimately if you havea question that came up during
your hour long interview, askit.
but one of the other corequestions that I ask, and I
think I already mentioned itearlier, was I love asking what
they like the most about the joband what they dislike the most
about the job and hope that theygive me honest answers.

(01:00:24):
And there's a few things you canglean from that right away.
so whether or not they struggleto find something they like that
might be a red flag.
uh, yes.

Pat (01:00:33):
oh man.

Alex (01:00:34):
The check's never bounce.

Pat (01:00:36):
right.

Alex (01:00:38):
direct deposit's pretty solid.
It's always there.
Yep.

Pat (01:00:41):
Every two Friday and every other Friday, you could count on
it.
That house of Mouse is workingovertime.
Baby

Alex (01:00:49):
Right.

Pat (01:00:50):
never linked.

Alex (01:00:51):
also, if they struggle to say something they dislike,
maybe that's a good sign too.
And I've asked that enough whereit's pretty rare where they
don't come up with something andI've heard answers that were,
pretty alarming.
I mean, there's, you don't wantto come right out and ask what
maybe what the work lifebalances, cuz maybe that'll get
them questioning, you know, whatyour commitment level is.

(01:01:13):
But if you ask'em what you, whatthey dislike the most, then they
come back and they say, Hey.
every couple days.
I'm waking up in the middle ofthe night

Pat (01:01:24):
All right.

Alex (01:01:25):
Okay.
So like, yeah, I've done thatfor a while.
I'm not really interested indoing that again.
so that might be good.
And the other thing, if you ask'em what they like, they,
especially if this is maybe thesecond or first interview and
you have another one coming up,they might be able to, might be
able to glean something fromthese answers too that might
help you with the next questionor the next interview.
cuz I've had situations whereI've asked that question and

(01:01:48):
they started talking about anupcoming project that they're
really excited about and thenthey're like, oh, well now I got
something else that I can reallylook into and prep for the next
interview.
Not that should be the goal, butthat's just something I got out
of just asking that onequestion.
And that's also another questionI just come right and ask
sometimes is, sometimes theycan't always say it, but I'll

(01:02:09):
ask them.
what projects are we working on?
Like what's the big initiativein the next X months year?
And I can tell you a lot, ifthey have no idea, that should
probably be a red flag,especially if it's a hiring
manager.
because it gives you an idea ofwhy you're being hired, you
know, just goes, Hey, we'rebeing hired cuz we have this
awesome project that's coming upand this is what we're gonna do.

(01:02:31):
you can find out whether or notthat's a project you're
interested at all.
if you find out they're doingsome huge voice rollout and
you're route switch guy, maybethat's a red flag.
That's something I really wantto be doing.
And let's see if there'sanything else that I ask all the
time.
I do try to, as I'm goingthrough the interview process,

(01:02:51):
try to think of questions alongthe way, kind of tailor it to
the, the interviewer.
but I think those, in additionto the ones you've already
mentioned, those are probablythe three that I ask as well..

Pat (01:03:03):
Yeah, I think those are the core ones, the good solid ones.
Go from there.
Maybe this is a little less of aimportant one now in the age of
Covid, depending on if you're aremote or not.
But, you know, like what's thedress code like?
Right?
Is it casual?
Is it business casual?
That kind of thing.
If you're in an office thatmatters, right?
That kind of thing.
If you're at home, it matter.
It doesn't matter or mattersless you know, that sort of
thing.

(01:03:23):
So, yeah.
Just something to keep in mind.
Kyle, anything from from you asfar as a question that you
asked?

Kyle (01:03:29):
I just kind of came in with like the, like, what is my
day-to-day gonna look like?
You know, like what's thestandard kinda, you know,
vanilla I guess, that I couldexpect, you know, when I go in
you know, outside the fires andwhatnot.

Pat (01:03:42):
You hope you don't hear drinking through a fire hose, so

Kyle (01:03:46):
I had asked about the team that I would be working with
too.
Which they seemed to really takea liking to, you know, they're
like this is it.
This is the team.
Like, you're being interviewedby the team, basically.
And I was like, oh, cool.
All right.
You know, you know, I had askedabout remote work or
telecommuting, whatever youwanna call it, kind of deal like
that.
And they're like, eh, right nowwe're just kind of doing an

(01:04:06):
on-prem thing, you know?
So I was like, okay that's fairenough.
And then my other one that I waskind of, you know, trying to
figure out is too, is like, howdo the problems actually get
escalated?
Like, where do they start beforethey even get to me?
And how does that escalationprocess work?
Or, you know, do people just hitme up left and right?
And they're like, this isbroken, that's on fire.
You know, like, so yeah.

(01:04:28):
So just some basic things tojust try and get some groundwork
to like, what am I steppinginto?
Is it gonna be like a crazynightmare, or is it gonna be
like, kind of structured well,

Pat (01:04:37):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
No.
Are all those are all real goodquestions and I think that's a
good place to wrap up.
And Kyle or Alex, anything elseyou wanna add before we tie this
one up with.

Alex (01:04:48):
no.
Uh uh, maybe to the a askanother ask of the audience.
Really.
we are, we're not writing bookson interviews and landing these
big jobs.
we're just given our experience,but I am curious if anyone else
has anything they want to add.

Pat (01:05:03):
Yeah, for sure.

Alex (01:05:04):
they'll hit us up on our social media accounts and let us
know.

Pat (01:05:07):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, hit us up.
You got any horror stories for,you know, good or bad interview
processes or questions you'dlike to ask, or staples that you
have when you know, prepare foran interview more, you know,
even as an interviewee or aninterviewer?
We'll take'em all, hit us up onour socials, Twitter, LinkedIn,
Facebook, email us, whatever wewe always welcome the

(01:05:28):
interaction with with you folks.
So, that being said, we're gonnawrap this one up the first one
in a month for us.
So we are yay, back on the oldsaddle.
So we getting things rollinghere and got some really good
topics coming up and some guestsas well, just trying to, getting
people in a room is harddepending on the schedule and
the day.
So we're we're really trying toget some guests on here that

(01:05:49):
just working on some schedules,so bear with us as we kind of
make it through, but.
Thanks again for joining us.
This week on breaking Down aBites.
Make sure you visit our website,breaking Bites pod.io.
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(01:06:10):
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(01:06:32):
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(01:06:52):
So, all of our social links arein the show notes, so go there
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Guys, it's been awesome.
It's really good to catch up,get back on the mic.
We're gonna do some cool thingshere in the new year and we
appreciate you joining and we'llsee everybody next week.

Kyle (01:07:08):
So long.