Gabriel Hannans on Parenting, Play, and Connecting With Your Children (#39)

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Drawing from his background in theatre and improv, Gabriel shares his insights into entering a child's world through play. We discuss the difference between different styles of parenting, including peaceful and authoritative parenting, how to connect with neurodivergent children, and what you can do to become a better parent.

Timestamps (Generated by AI):

• 0:00 - Understanding and Connecting With Children's Worlds
• 9:21 - Parenting Through Play and Setting Boundaries
• 22:25 - Rapport and Non-Judgment in Parenting
• 30:46 - Navigating Parenting in a Changing World
• 35:53 - Success Skills and Empowering the Next Generation
• 43:10 - Healing and Transformation in Families
• 59:04 - Parenting Challenges and Behavior Modification
• 1:07:25 - Closing Remarks and Gratitude

Resources:

• This Is Parenting by Gabriel Hannans
• Gabriel Hannans Website

AI tools used to create this episode include Autopod and Cohost AI.

Subscribe and support the show directly:
https://brendonmarotta.com/show/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Kids will often invite adults into their world.
It really makes sense from atheater mindset where there's a
suspension of disbelief andyou're stepping into a new world
.
It doesn't have to make senseto you, it makes sense in the
scene.
So anything to do with thechild behavior.
They're seeing things in theirworld, so you have to step into

(00:21):
their world.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
You're listening to the Brendan Murata Show.
In this episode, i talk toGabriel Hannan, a child care
professional who is the authorof the book This Is Parenting.
In this episode, we talk a lotabout childhood play and how
Gabriel is using his backgroundin theater and improv to connect
with children.
We talk about neurodiversityand how to connect with children
who maybe see the world a bitdifferently, and how to enter

(00:45):
the child's world and understandwhat they're thinking and
experiencing, rather than imposeyour own experience.
A lot of the episodes we do inthis show are about what things
people are doing wrong withchildren, but I think this is an
episode that'll be reallyuseful to people who are
interested in bringing more joyand connection into their
child's life.
So, without further ado, hereis Gabriel.

(01:07):
What is it that got youinterested in working with
children?
What's the history there, so tospeak?

Speaker 1 (01:13):
So I always loved working with kids.
I have wanted kids since I wasa kid And, as I said in my book,
as I said in many other places,i've always worked with kids,
whether it was kids in my family, kids in the neighborhood, kids
that were just around myfriend's kid, whatever.

(01:33):
I was working with kids And sowhat turned me into the place
where I was as a registeredbehavioral technician, which is
the that's the term.
I was actually homeless at thetime and I needed a job And a
friend of mine was working as abehavior assistant, which is a
level lower than the position Igot hired for, and I had this

(01:58):
real sense of urgency.
It was right.
After I finished my first yearof teaching at a private school,
they let me go from that And Iwas a camp counselor.
So around that time I hadapplied to go to be an RBT.
They told me I had to do this40 hour course.
I did that, passed.
It passed the competencyevaluation.
I passed.
I sat down for the boardcertification and passed that

(02:21):
first time.
And then I got into the actualcareer with the children who are
neurodivergent, usually withautism, and it changed my entire
life.
And I also spoke with mytheater professor when I was in
college.
At the time And when she saw meteaching, i brought a whole
bunch of the kids to go see aplay that she had directed And

(02:42):
she was just looking at me offat the sign.
She was like Gabe, I'm so proudof you.
It's like what do you mean?
She was like I've always seenyou as a teacher.
You're really great ateducation.
You should really do that.
You're getting older and age.
Now You need a career.
To go for education.
I did, and it's honestly beenthe best decision, because
before I was going to school forbiomedical sciences but then I

(03:03):
changed it to exceptionalstudent education.
So that's kind of how I gotinto it.
That's wild.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
I've not heard this as a party where you went from
homeless to child education Andit sounds like for you that was
really transformative in yourlife And I just want to know
more about that story.
Like, how is it that youbecause for most people, i don't

(03:31):
think most people can imagine ashift that big, or was it a
shift that big?
Was it something that feltnormal to you?
What was that like?

Speaker 1 (03:41):
It felt right, like it matched.
Everything made sense When Igot my first client.
He was a nonverbal child withautism And although I hadn't
seen a lot of the behaviors likehead banging, other
self-injurious behaviors, assoon as he saw me and I saw him
and I started to actually pairwith him, i started to see how

(04:03):
his mind worked And it tooknothing for us to communicate on
his level And it just madesense.
And so I did that for a numberof years and it works.
I was like every person who'sworked with me has always raved
about how good I am with theirchild, to the point where I got

(04:24):
another job as an RBT and I washired on the spot.
The person had never met mebefore, did not know, only knew
about me from what other RBT'sand behavior analysts said.
They're like oh, this is gay.
So when I applied they werelike I know you, you're gay, i'm
gonna hire you just off of whatI've heard about you alone.
And so it was a natural.

(04:44):
It was like I fell into myraison d'être, like my whole
reason to be Like that was this.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
There's another synchronicity there too, which
is I have a big interest inautism and neurodiversity and
the idea that people who areneurologically different in some
way are not necessarily bad ordefective, but just different,
and they have different ways ofcommunicating different needs.
So I would be curious what yourperspective on that has been

(05:18):
working with autistic kids.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
It's been.
it hasn't been a challenge.
It's been different, anddifferent only in the sense that
the only real variable is theway people communicate.
Every living being iscommunicating through behavior,
verbally, non-verbal.
whatever they're communicating,they're trying to communicate

(05:42):
and make sense of the world, andso my job has always been to
bridge that gap of understandingand I'm sorry I just got a
phone call.
It's to bridge that gap ofcommunication and allow them to
express themselves.
That's really been it.

(06:02):
So it's not too different fromdealing with neurotypical kids.
It's just the level of patiencethat you have and the amount of
relationship building that youbuild with that child to
understand how they're receivinginformation, how they're
perceiving the world and howthey're trying to give that
information.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
That's a great explanation of it And I think it
ties into the larger challengepeople have around parenting,
which is trying to figure outhow to communicate with their
kids, because kids and adults docommunicate differently, and
I'm curious.
What you see is the differencebetween those types of

(06:41):
communication.
In other words, if I want tounderstand a child and a child's
world, what's the way tounderstand them and communicate
with them?

Speaker 1 (06:51):
It looks like actually I can say it like this
kids will often invite adultsinto their world.
If a kid hands you a stuffedanimal or a little toy, they're
inviting you into the world thatthey've just created And it
looks like accepting that andthen going with it.
It really makes sense from atheater mindset where there's a

(07:14):
suspension of disbelief andyou're stepping into a new world
.
And it doesn't have to makesense to you, it makes sense in
the scene.
So anything to do with thechild behavior they're seeing
things in their world, so youhave to step into their world to
understand how they're seeingthings, how they're perceiving
it, how they're operating inthat world.

(07:37):
The difference between that andadults is adults have a shared
reality and a shared perspective, generally speaking, and when
we get older a lot of us forgetthat we all had a world that we
saw and we exchange that for theworld that everybody sees.
And so our goal is to get totheir world, understand what

(07:58):
they're seeing, understand howthey're perceiving the world and
then try to, like I said before, bridge that gap.
That's really the onlydifference between adults and
kids.
They have their own individualworlds that they can like kind
of little bubbles.
Where this is my world, youhave your world bubble and then,
when little kids play together,their bubbles can intersect

(08:19):
with each other, turn into agiant bubble And then they're
inviting you to put your bubblein theirs so that everybody can
share it.
But if you've forgotten thatyour bubble doesn't exist, then
you're not gonna be able toassimilate in theirs.
So you want the communicationto happen.
Join them in their bubble, jointhem in their world.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
It also reminds me of the theater principle, yes, and
which a lot of adults know, butwith children, and when they
hand the toy, they're like, no,we're not doing that now.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
No, Yes, yes, and Let's take it a little bit
farther.
You can improv specifically.
You have to.
You can set parameters for thegame and they'll play that game.
That's okay.
It's setting boundaries andstructure.
You can do that, but it'slearning how to go with the flow

(09:13):
as opposed to being a wall thatthey just crash upon.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
You just gave me a light bulb moment in terms of
that.
The boundaries of a game couldbe used to create boundaries for
children, and I know that a lotof what you talk about in the
book is letting go of the oldideas people have around

(09:40):
discipline and controllingchildren through punishment and
things like that, and it soundslike the thing that people might
do instead of that hassomething to do with play.
So I suspect most of myaudience probably knows by now
that things like spanking orcorporal punishment are not

(10:00):
helpful and bad, but I'm curiouswhat you would suggest instead
of if you're in a situationwhere a child needs boundaries
of some kind or you do need tosay no to something.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
In cases like that, because a lot of people think
that gentle parenting,authoritative parenting,
respectful parenting whateveryou want to call it is not about
having boundaries and firmness.
That's not true.
Anytime I work with any kid Iwork with.
If I don't like something, ican establish a boundary and not
allow that child to step overthat boundary.
And if they do, they receive aconsequence.

(10:35):
And that is just getting peopleto understand.
It doesn't have to be violent.
You can explain that somethingis not okay without being
violent.
You can give a consequence fora child's behavior without it
being violent or yelling orlashing out.
It can be something as simpleas hey, what you're doing is
unacceptable, i don't like that,so we're going to do something

(10:58):
different.
What are some other things thatwe can do when this is what's
happening?
You're frustrated.
Right now.
You want to have a meltdown.
I understand.
What did we talk about before?
Let's practice the skills thatwe've been doing.
It's teaching them how tocontrol themselves, is teaching
them how to interact with otherpeople.
It's just doing it in a waythat's not violent And that's

(11:19):
not a hard concept.
It shouldn't be a hard conceptfor a lot of people to
understand, but I believe that alot of people are still dealing
with their own triggers, thattheir own unpacked, unprocessed
trauma that still allows them toact the way they do.
Or, if they hear it, they reactthe way their parents would And
it's like, well, no, let's takea step back.

(11:39):
Let's just rethink everything.
How did it make you feel whenyou were a kid?
Did it work for you when youwere a kid?
Don't base it on what resultthat your parents got.
How did you feel?
Did you respond this waybecause you were spanked?
Or did you respond this waybecause you eventually got a
skill And then you learned howto master that skill in spite of

(12:03):
being hit?

Speaker 2 (12:07):
You know, one of the things I didn't realize about
parenting until I became aparent is how much time is spent
on play, Because when I readbooks about parenting, they're
kind of about the big questionsof parenting, of like, will you
do a home birth or hospital,home school or public school,
all of these sort of questions.

(12:27):
But I found that 90% of my timeis just hanging out with my son
and we're just doing stuff, Andone of the things that I've
really wanted but haven't foundis a book just about play,
because that does seem to be theprimary activity of children,
And so there's a lot of stuffout there about you know how to

(12:50):
discipline kids and teach themand all these things.
But I'm curious what you wouldsay if a parent asked you how do
you play with children, Or howis it that you engage in play,
Or what does that mean?
Like, why is play the primaryactivity of children?
Like, why is that seem?
you know, if it was the focuswas not on all these other

(13:12):
parenting questions but just onplay, what would you?
what would you advise?

Speaker 1 (13:17):
It kind of goes back into what I was saying before.
They have their own mind Andthere's there's two aspects of
this right.
Kids are geared, designed togain information and skills, and
a lot of the way that you canteach your child in a way that
they are engaged, they'recreating.

(13:38):
Creating is the one of thehighest forms of skill
acquisition, and so if you'reengaging them in fun, active
activities, lessons, they'regoing to get it so quick,
they're going to understand howthese concepts interact with
another concept and they canbuild upon that.
And so if you want to play withyour kid, it first looks like

(14:00):
having a relationship with themto where, when they invite you
into something one they want toinvite you to, they do invite
you.
And three, they can trust thatyou can play the game And they
can learn something out of it,because they're learning social
and emotional skills, thelearning, whatever skill that
the game involves.
They're playing basketball,they're learning how to shoot,

(14:21):
they're learning how to dribble,they're learning hand-like
coordination, gross and finemotor control skills and
everything on top of that.
But it looks like findingthings that they could be
interested in and then joiningthem in that is.
It's really that easy, but itcan only happen if you're
pairing with your child, andpairing means you're building a
relationship.
Just because they came out ofyou, just because they can act

(14:43):
somewhat like you, doesn't meanthat they're going to enjoy
everything that you do.
My dad loves basketball.
I am not a fan of basketball.
I'm six, eight, do not likebasketball.
I like baseball, like both ofmy parents, and I like football,
like both of my parents.
But if you asked me to play,i'm not going to do it.
So it's finding things in.
My dad said Hey, i want to playfootball with you.
Yes, 100%, let's go playbaseball.

(15:05):
Yes, i will love to play catchwith you.
Let's go do it.
But that's because that's whatI like.
Don't force your thing on them.
Let them invite you intosomething, and it can be small,
as a tea party.
If your kids want to do a teaparty, play a tea party with
them.
If your daughter wants to paintyour nails, let your daughter
paint your nails.
If your son wants to bakecookies for you, let them bake.

(15:29):
Enjoy what they're doing, playwith them and then teach them
skills as they go along.
Perfectly, fine.
Just reinforce what they'redoing.
Reinforce how well they'relearning, how well they're
playing, and it's that simple.
You can even come up with gamesLike.
Y'all can just invent gamestogether that teach a specific
skill.
Who can build something out ofLegos the fastest?

(15:54):
who can make a bridge out ofthese little materials,
marshmallows and spaghettistraws?
There's so many differentthings that you can do where you
can invite them or they caninvite you.
It's just knowing that theywant to do an activity and you
can do the activity together.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
So I'm going to be a little bit selfish with this
interview and get some parentingcoaching from you, if that's
okay.
I do that with my son very often.
He is almost two, not quitethere yet We'll be in two months
And one of the things that I'mtrying to figure out is if

(16:36):
there's, because we play, we doall sorts of fun stuff together,
but I'm trying to figure out ifthere's a way that I could
teach him something useful inthe midst of that.
Or there's sort of a part of methat feels like I should be
building him up in some way orhelping, you know, teaching him
something useful.
But at the same time he's verylittle And so, you know,

(16:56):
recently I threw a ball towardshim and he caught it midair for
the first time ever And that tome was the most exciting thing
ever because he couldn't hehadn't done that before, slowly
knew.
But I'm trying to figure out.
Is there a way that I could addsome, you know, useful benefit?
or is it at that age is it okayjust to run around and, you

(17:18):
know, have fun?

Speaker 1 (17:20):
You can do that.
You can also.
I started reading at two.
My mom would sit me down andone of my earliest memories was
reading this book called Tuggy,And it was about a little puppy.
I was two.
You can absolutely startteaching your child how to read
at that, and I encourage you.
a lot of people say, oh, youshould wait until they're like
six.
I say start teaching these kidsas soon as they can.

(17:41):
As soon as they can startrecognizing certain letters,
certain symbols, you can startteaching them to read And that's
going to set them up forsuccess.
I cannot emphasize this enough.
Teach your children to read asearly as you can.
You don't have to force it.
It can turn into a game.
If you're tossing your ball toyour son, you could say say ah,
ah, ah And then if he says thesound, toss the ball.

(18:03):
That's reinforcing him sayingreproducing that sound, and it's
also reinforcing him catching aball.
That's fine And gross motorcontrol.
Or you can identify a photo ofthe letter A and say ah, ah, ah.
If he does it right, toss theball again.
There are so many different waysto teach that skill.

(18:24):
For ABA, applied behavioralanalysis, which is what I did
when I was an RBT.
It has a.
It's pretty scandalous, buthere's the basis of it Giving a
reinforcer for any behaviorincreases that behavior's
likelihood of manifestation.
So if, like I said before, ifyou were to try to teach your
son how to read certain wordsI'm not saying this how you do

(18:47):
it, but I'm just saying this,the principle You can show a
word If the child reproduces asound at, reinforce them, give
them a preferred activity orpreferred item, food item, like
a goldfish, a snicker, whateverthey're getting rewarded,
they're going to do it again.

(19:07):
They're going to say okay, i'massociating good with repeating
these sounds.
Cat, oh, okay, so when I seethat that means cat, they're
learning how to read, they'relearning a very important skill.
It's, it's really just likethat, and they have so many
programs now, like My Baby CanRead.
You can teach a kid skills thatthey need at a very early age.

(19:28):
They are designed to get thoseskills at that age.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
So if I'm I'm hearing that right, you teach the
skills in the form of a game andreinforce anytime they build
that skill, so anytime they doit.
Well, just like any game,there's a reward, there's a,
there's something given inresponse to that.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Exactly That's why people play video games.
I mean, i'm a gamer as well IfI'm playing a video game and my
skill is going to increase as Icontinue to play.
When I first started playingKingdom of Hearts, i couldn't
beat Riku on in the HollowBastion.
Then, 10 years later, i playedit again and I beat him the
first time.
I developed a skill, and so thesame thing occurs with children

(20:12):
.
As you play, you're gaining askill As you get better at like.
There's this whole thing ingentle parenting now about
allowing kids to do riskyactivities like a lot of parents
are like get down from therebefore you fall and hurt
yourself.
Well, gentle parenting.
A lot of parents are saying no,let that kid do that, because
what that does is that increasestheir, their skill making.

(20:33):
Either you're going to fall andhurt yourself or you're going
to do it better next time,reinforced when they do it
better.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
I'm a little more towards the risk side and my
wife is a little more towardsthe safety side, So I feel
you're there.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Medical bills are nowadays.
I mean, I'm also not reallytrying to go towards the risky
side, but the risky side alsohelps build the skills which
made humans who we are today.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
I mean we do the thing where we're letting him do
something a little unsafe, butwe're nearby if he's going to
need the help.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
And that's perfectly fine.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yeah, i wanted to ask what do you think the
difference is in terms of beingin a child's world between
different ages?
So I'm curious if most of yourwork is with older kids or if
you know things about workingwith children and infants.
Is that something you haveexperience with, or is there

(21:36):
different principles, or is itmostly the same, just depending
on the skill level?
Ask your question a differentway, please?
Okay, i'm sorry.
I'm so excited about this thatI'm all over the place, which is
something I see kids do too,and something I'm told that I
did as a kid is I would get veryexcited and just take off.

(21:57):
So what is the difference interms of how you parent and get
in the world of a very youngchild, or even an infant or a
toddler, versus an older child?

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Okay.
So I've worked with everybodyfrom two to 20.
I have had clients of thatentire age range and all of them
kind of operate under the sameway.
But when kids get older, whenthey start to hit adolescence
and they're trying to break awayfrom their parents and
establish their own identity, itlooks a little different, but
the principles of it are stillthe same.

(22:36):
It's all about how you'rebuilding the relationship.
How are you?
because it's not enough thatyou just say you can come to me
for anything.
They're not going to come toyou for anything, because they
want to try to figure it outthemselves, and that's good.
They're trying to gainindependence, but what you
really want to do is engage themin things that are outside of

(22:57):
just bad things, going onwithout judgment.
It looks like hey, how are youdoing in school?
Oh, what was your day like inmath class?
Oh, when I was in math, istruggled with this, and that
there is letting them know thatyou went through similar things.
You came out of it.
You're giving them like oh, oh,you struggled with that too.
Okay, well, i actually needhelp with such and such, can you

(23:17):
?
of course, i can help you all.
This is what I did.
It is kind of that same thing.
They're still inviting you intotheir world.
When kids are shutting down andthey're saying nothing, they're
still inviting you into theirworld.
They just don't have a way toarticulate that, but they still
are trying to communicate.
Hey, i need help with somethingcoming to my world.
Hey, this really incrediblething is happening.

(23:38):
Come into my world.
It looks differently, but that'sbecause they don't have the
ability especially at like theages of 13 to 16, they don't
have the vocabulary to reallyexpress what they're feeling
because of hormones which havenever existed before.
So they're like I don't knowwhat I feel.
I feel a lot of really weirdthings right now.

(23:58):
I don't want to be shamed forsaying it.
Help, so it can look likeshutting down, it can look like
saying whatever, it can looklike having an attitude.
Those are still ways thatthey're trying to invite you
into their life, but it lookslike giving them just enough
space to let them know thatyou're still there, but then

(24:20):
also like okay, wait, what'sactually going on?
It's about asking questions,not in a judging way, but in a
way that gets them to understandthat you're stepping into their
world and you want to play thegame with them.
That's how I work with mystudents.
Any of them, any of my clients,any of my students.

(24:42):
They can be having the worstday.
They tell me everything becauseI have that level of rapport
with them.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
And how do you build that level of rapport?

Speaker 1 (24:55):
Asking questions and being there, being not
judgmental, because you can bethe funniest, goofiest, weirdest
parent that's so cringe andthey still want to come with you
and hang out with you.
They can be the most defiant,angry, different child from you
and still want you in their life.

(25:15):
You have to sit and observetheir behavior and see what
their behavior is trying tocommunicate And just literally,
it's as easy as being there andnot judging.
As soon as you input any typeof judgment, they're going to
shut down and they're going toput a wall up.
And if you say, say, forinstance, they did something bad
, like they're struggling on atest, if they feel like you're

(25:41):
going to judge them for failinga test, they're not going to
come to you.
They will put a wall up and youwill not be invited back into
that life.
When you say, hey, you'restruggling, dang, this looks
like you need some help.
I struggle with the same thing.
Let me come up.
It's just communicating.
Free behavior is acommunication And so you have to

(26:03):
take that information, acceptit and then communicate back
without judgment.
That's really as simple as Ican make it.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
And how do we let go of that judgment?
Because I know that that'ssomething that comes up for me
sometimes.
My son is young enough that Idon't really have it at this age
.
But I'm also aware that thereis a possibility of judgment
within me and that it comes upin my adult relationships more
often.
So how do we let go of thatjudgment?

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Recognize, and we say this all the time and it's so
cliche.
Everybody makes mistakes, butwe have to actually unpack what
that means.
Every human will make a mistake.
Kids are no different.
In fact it's worse, becausethey've never been on this
planet before.
They don't know the things theydon't know.
So judging them for making poorchoices because you wouldn't

(26:59):
make it doesn't really help them.
Judgment does not help anybodybecause it's not changing the
behavior.
If you want to see behaviorchange, judgment isn't going to
do it.
If you want to see behaviorchange, you're going to have to
work to change the behavior bygiving them a skill so that the
behavior doesn't increase.
If a child is failing at math,you don't yell at your kid or

(27:21):
beat your kid or ground your kid.
That's not helping them getbetter at math, it's just
punishing them for not knowinghow to do it.
I didn't get good at math untilmy sophomore year of college,
after I failed eight mathclasses.
It wasn't until I had a teacherwho said you can't study math,
you don't understand how tostudy it.
Show me how to study it that Istarted passing my math classes.

(27:44):
I was given the skill necessaryto do it.
So you can't judge a child wholiterally doesn't know or hasn't
had enough practice to masterthe skill to know not to make
that same mistake again.
The next part is practicing.
You can't tell somebodysomething once and think they're

(28:04):
going to get it.
Sell them this.
that happened.
You have a trainer at your jobwho sits and watches you do
something and corrects you whenyou do it wrong, again and again
until you master it, beforethey let you off and do it on
your own.
The same thing applies to achild.
We have to look at skills interms of mastery.
It doesn't matter how manytimes you've explained it.
if they don't master it, you'vedone nothing.

(28:25):
So don't judge.
Recognize that their children.
they're learning.
You made mistakes, your parentsmade mistakes.
Mistakes go all the way back tothe first humans.
That's okay.
They can learn.
Give them the tools necessaryto learn.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
So we enter the child's world, Learn what's
going on with them, look at itwithout judgment and then figure
out what the missing skill isthat they need And then work on
that, having patience withhowever long it takes them to
learn that skill.
Is that a good understanding ofthe process?

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Absolutely.
Anytime we look at gentleparenting, gentle parenting or
authoritative parenting isliterally high expectation and
high responsiveness.
The expectation is up here,you're going to pass this class,
but I'm going to help you getup there.
Authoritarian parenting is passthe class.
I ain't going to help you,you're going to figure it out on
your own.
Or you have permissive, whereit's like I'm going to help you,

(29:29):
not necessarily pass your class.
You tried, that's good enough.
No, no, i want you to pass thisclass and I'm going to help you
get there.
That's what authoritativeparenting is.
That's gentle parenting.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
I really love that frame of authoritative parenting
because I've been previouslyfamiliar with the labels of
peaceful parenting And I think alot of people misunderstand
peaceful parenting as permissiveparenting.
In other words, they connectedthe abusive behavior with the

(30:00):
standards and thought, well,we've got to get rid of this
abusive behavior and drop thestandards in the process.
And it sounds like the termthat you've created, or actually
did you create the termauthoritative parenting?
I hadn't heard it before you.
Okay, maybe I just need to readmore books apparently Not that
there's enough behind me, butwhere does that term come from

(30:21):
actually?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
Just the term that they've been using for a long
time.
It's not unlike authoritarianor permissive or neglectful.
They are all terms that havebeen used as far back as I know.
All right, and it all justtalks about the same thing.
I'm surprised.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
I've only heard the peaceful parenting language,
which I guess is I don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
Maybe we have a lot of different terms for it.
A lot of people get hung up.
A lot of people confuseauthoritarian and authoritative.
Yeah, i think they're the samething.
I say it's the biggest problemin the gentle parenting
community.
It's the concept of these.
words are triggering to people,or misunderstood.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, i could see how authoritative would be
triggering to someone who hasissues with authority.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
But I also want people to understand that that's
good, because that opens upconversation.
So when people say gentleparenting made my siblings to be
a-holes, okay, well, what'sgentle parenting Right?
That's the next question Ialways ask, because when you
tell me what you think gentleparenting is, then I can correct
you and say, well, actually isthis.

(31:32):
When they say whatauthoritarian or authoritative
parenting is, i say, well,actually is this.
And so I'm able to provide thema better, accurate
understanding of it.
And then I got you, because assoon as you hear you're like
that makes sense, i got you atthat point.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
You're going to change.
So authoritative parenting,high standards, but also what
was the phrase of responsiveness?
Responsiveness, yeah Which Iguess is also the opposite of
reactiveness, or reactivity thatyou're taking ownership of it.
In addition to, if I want youto have this high standard, i

(32:10):
will take ownership of ensuringthat you have the support you
need to get there.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Right.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Because in reaction.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
you don't want to react to behavior, You want to
respond to it.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Right, and in that frame is there.
how is it that you determinewhat the standard should be?

Speaker 1 (32:29):
That's really up to the parent, but it's.
You generally want to havesomething that's going to allow
them to assimilate into asociety Not assimilate as in be
like a follower or a sheet, butit is.
They're going to interact withother people.
What skills do they need tohave to interact with other
people?
Okay, they're going to need tolearn how to set boundaries Okay
, so you're going to have toteach them how to set boundaries

(32:50):
.
They're going to have to knowhow to effectively communicate
You have the teacher kid how toeffectively communicate.
They're going to have to haveempathy.
We're going to have to teachthem how to have empathy.
Other skills is you think it'sgoing to make them successful in
life, to fit in a society wherethey're a functioning member of
society?
Those are the skills that youneed to have And, based on that,

(33:11):
you know what standard thatthey need to be at.
If you're a little Jimmy laughsat people that are crying okay,
well then, maybe we need toexamine that, because that
necessarily won't fly in society.
They're going to see him as notbeing empathetic, okay.
So what's going on with that?
If you have little Timothy whois hauling off and hitting

(33:33):
people because they took his toy.
That means he might have issuesin communication.
Let's give him some skills toteach that communication, so on
and so forth.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
What do you think the skills that a kid needs to
learn are?

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Well again, communication, empathy,
self-regulation, self calming orself soothing.
They need to know how to bepatient.
They're going to have to waitfor a lot of things.
Risk taking or really a riskreward balance.

(34:11):
They need to know how tocalculate their risk.
Fine and gross motor control,of course reading academics in
general, critical thinkingskills are impaired.
God, they're so imperative.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
I was also asking that because I think judging
what sort of world your kids aregoing to be in or have to be a
part of is really challengingfor a lot of people.
And growing up there are a lotof things I was told well,
that's just how it is.
And then the world changed andthat's actually not how it is.
I remember things like we haveto know how to do this, because

(34:51):
you're not going to carry acalculator around in your pocket
all the time.
Right, and of course we kind ofdo.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Here we are.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
And now I'm hearing the same thing around AI, like
how will kids learn to do thisif an AI does it for them?
And it's like I think the AImight do it for them for a
really long time.
I think that might be thefuture now, and there's also
things where I've even seenemotional expectations placed on
people that have changed.

(35:19):
Well, you have to learn how tosuck it up and never show
emotion because you're a man Andit's like, well, the standards
around that might be changing alittle bit too.
So I guess I'm also curious howit is you calculate the world
that your kids are actuallygoing to be in And what's going

(35:39):
to be important in that world,when the world that they go into
might be different than theworld we were raised in.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
That is very subjective to the, because we
don't really have a way ofknowing right.
like 90s, we went from notflying to being on the moon in
about 60 years a little bit over60 years And then from being on
the moon to having AI, to goinginterstellar to.

(36:10):
we went from having the amountof information that it took to
get a man on the moon was about8 megabits.
Right To having a two terabytesworth of data in the size of my
phone.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
We're using more data to record this podcast than it
took to put someone on the moon.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Then they had to get to the moon.
Yeah, a TI 81 had moreinformation on it than what it
took to get to the moon.
So there's no way of knowingThere's no way.
But we do know what got us thisfar.
And what got us this far ashumans is what I said before the
ability to critically think, tohave a risk analysis,

(36:52):
effectively communicate, selfcalming, self regulation and
empathy.
Those things got us to where weare today.
Having those skills.
If everything shut down in theworld and we went back to
primitive life, those fiveskills could get us back to
where we are currently.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
That's a really great frame.
Those are sort of eternalskills too.
They're going to be useful inevery situation, because in
every situation you're dealingwith other people and you're
dealing with yourself.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
I'm also curious too, to what degree, because you
mentioned the skills thatsomeone needs to be in society,
and I suspect many of ouraudience have noticed that
society is a little bitdysfunctional and not everything
is as it should be.
So to what degree do you teachthem to conform to the world or

(37:45):
to work within the world, and towhat degree do you teach them
to change the world and toactually push back against the
social standards around them?

Speaker 1 (37:55):
And go ahead?
That's a great question,because I think that's what's
happening now, jin, from theMillennials on Kids.
First off, they are the oneswho set the trends.
They're the ones who, if yousee a great world changing event
, it started with kids.
I mean, you look at the civilrights movement, people think it
was just the adults.
No, the kids were the ones whowere spearheading everything.

(38:16):
The occupied movements, thosewere young adults.
What happened after Parkland?
you had kids spearheading that,which is actually a shame.
Kids should not have to belobbying about their life, but
that's a conversation foranother day.
Kids are the ones who they'resetting the tone and the
precedence for everything.
They're already.

(38:39):
They're ready.
All you're doing is justguiding them to understanding
these skills.
They'll pick everything else up.
They're interacting with eachother and they have their own
hive mind.
The Bible says raise a child inthe way that he should go and
he'll never depart.
I know Nye right, that'sChristian.
That's how the point isrecognizing that kids are

(39:00):
already poised and set on a path.
All you're doing is giving themthe tools for their journey so
that they can use them on thejourney there.
So you don't have to nitpickevery little thing.
They're going to get it.
The brain doesn't stopdeveloping until 25.
They're going to get it.
Just give them the tools to getthere and then watch them keep

(39:23):
going, because a lot of myparents that I work with they
are under this mindset that theyhave to helicopter parent or
they're failing at something andthey know just vibe, they're
going to get there.
Just give them a chance,they're going to get there.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
So it's almost like you're going in the, when you're
in their world, their world'sobviously interacting with the
larger world and you can noticethe places where they don't like
the world the way that it is,and then you're giving them the
tools they need to change it.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
So it's like oh okay, So they will absolutely change
it.
Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
right now, like my middleschool kids, they will call out
hypocrisy and a heartbeat Ifthey see something that doesn't
seem fear.
well, mr H, that's not fair.
How come you did this for thisand you didn't do that?
You know what You're right,dang.
why did I do that?

(40:18):
Let me recap my statement.
Both of y'all got detention.
It really is that mindset ofthey're already ready.
The young people see problemsand they're ready to change it.
Just let them do it.
It's when we try to repressthem that things will get worse.
Let the kids be the kids andthey know that they're going to

(40:41):
be the future leaders.
They're ready to do it.
The ones that aren't are theones that are either in a bad
situation or they just haven'tseen it yet, but they'll get
there.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
So one of the things that we were talking about
earlier was how to get your ownstuff out of the way, because
all of this requires being inanother person's world, looking
at them without judgment,allowing them to make the
changes to the world that theyknow in their heart need to

(41:15):
happen, or write for them orwould feel better for everyone.
All of that requires letting goof your own stuff and maybe the
patterns and things that wewere taught in our own childhood
.
I'm curious how it is that youapproach that, because I suspect
, as you're working with kids,you're also, in a way, working

(41:36):
with the parent and their maybemisconceptions or own hangups
around how to handle their ownchild.
So how is it that we let go of?

Speaker 1 (41:45):
that.
So are you asking how do peoplelet go of what they've gone
through, or their ego orsomething?

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah, So I'll give a more specific example.
If I'm with my child and I gettriggered and I can feel my
fight or flight instinct kick inon something that's totally not
worth that instinct beingkicked in, what is it that we do
to let go of that?
And what is it we do to let goof our own judgments about kids?

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Go to therapy.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
I mean, yes, there's that.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
I mean, i tell everybody go to therapy.
If you got to find a therapy,you can shop around for a
therapist.
You need to unpack what youwent through as a kid, whether
you think it was great, whetheryou think it was bad, whether
you think it helped you, whetheryou think it did it.
You need to process it becauseif you take that to your child,

(42:41):
you're only doing that child adisservice, because your child
didn't ask to be here.
You did You.
However, your child came aboutgenerally, hopefully, is asked
for that child to be here, oryou did something for that child
to be here, and in which caseyou owe it to your child.
Now Your life is no longer yourown, so the goal is for your

(43:05):
child to be like you.
Your goal is for your child tobe better than you.
One of the things I pride myselfon is that I'm in a position
that my great great grandmother,who was a slave on a slave
breeding plantation.
I'm living a life she couldhave never dreamed about.
Nobody in my family, none of myancestors, could see me in my

(43:28):
position.
We've all done better than thenext generation.
I come from two educatedparents who came One did not
come from an educated family atall.
The other one came from a fatherwho was educated and then their
parents were slaves.
We came a mighty long way.
So we owe it to our kids forour kids to be better than us,

(43:49):
and it shouldn't be a jealousything.
We shouldn't be trying to livevicariously through our children
because we want to live somefantasy that we never got to
have.
No, let your kids go off andlive the life that they are
supposed to live And empowerthem and give them the tools and
resources to do that by goingto get your own help.
Go deal, go nurse and take careof your inner child before you

(44:11):
start working on your child, andyou will watch your child
flourish more than your innerchild did.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
I can say that that has always been true for me,
that every time there'ssomething that comes up in my
relationship with my familythere's something I got to go
into.
I'm also curious, too, what yousort of change, because you've
obviously worked with a lot offamilies.
Have you seen a familytransform as a result of the
parent doing some sort ofhealing work?

Speaker 1 (44:49):
I would say my mom, but in terms of a family that
I've worked with, not reallyTherapy is expensive A lot of
people haven't but I have seen alot of my friends who are
around my age and younger Whenthey go to therapy.
I have seen their whole livestransform, like a friend of mine

(45:11):
is getting married in a coupledays and seeing where he came
from.
I've known him since he was 18and he came from a very messed
up family dynamic with a singlemom who abused him And now he's
completely transformed and doingbetter than all of his other
siblings, in a better positionthan all of his other siblings,

(45:33):
because he got therapy.
He went to get help and got thehelp and he's where he is now.
I have another friend samesituation abused his entire life
and is about to graduate withhis master's first person in his
family not only go to collegebut get higher education and
continuing education and it's ontrack to go for a doctorate.
Everything got this person downbecause he got therapy, dealt

(45:58):
with his inner child.
Well, regularly you talk to meabout the different epiphanies,
as he calls them, epiphanies ofwhat he's discovered about his
life, about his childhood andnursing and taking care of and
raising his inner child.
It changes you when you startto do that.

(46:19):
It happened in my own life andit's never like a thing that
ever ends, but it's somethingthat as you continue to nurture
it, kind of like a plant, youstart to see it grow again and
it changes the environment.
So I haven't seen it in theparents that I've worked with,
but I've seen it in otherpeople's lives.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
I've experienced it in my own life as well.
You also mentioned your momchanging in some way.
If it's okay, if that's yourpersonal, may ask.
I'm curious what happened there, because I know in my own
family I've seen my parents growand change in ways that I would

(47:03):
not have expected them to.
Maybe it's just the bias ofbeing their child that I would
think this is who they are andthat's who they're going to be.
But I know that seeing your ownfamily change can have a really
transformative effect.
And it's still being on theother side of like.
Oh, maybe this is what my kidswill experience if I change and

(47:28):
transform as well.
But I'm curious what youexperienced around that, around
seeing a family member change.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
So my mom well, my mom and my dad transformed in a
lot of different ways My mom.
She was raised old school.
She had both parents, lovingparents, but they were pretty
authoritarian and they also hadseven kids.
So she was one of seven Andthere were times of emotional
neglect not ever physicalneglect, but there were some
times of emotional neglectbecause they got seven kids.

(47:57):
And so with my mom, when shewent to therapy as a kid,
growing up and seeing that shetaught us to be more emotionally
intelligent, she always addedthat extra love to us, just to
make sure we didn't feel anysort of emotional neglect

(48:19):
whatsoever.
I knew my mom loved me.
Did she always show it the waythat I wanted her to show it?
Not necessarily, but there wasnever a doubt in my mind that my
mom didn't love me.
She always did My dad a littledifferent.
He raised me with a firm handbecause he never had that when
he was a kid.
His dad was abusive andneglectful And so with him it

(48:45):
was I want to raise my son to be.
I want to be the father that Iwish I had when I was a kid.
He was that in a way He was,but even in that he still wasn't
the dad that I needed, butthat's neither here nor there.
He's transformed over time,especially when my older sister

(49:10):
started having kids, into aperson who was more emotionally
aware, who was more forgiving,who started to calm down in his
aggression and really startedfocusing on okay, wait, i can be
gentle.
I can be a good gentle,communicative, communicating,
whatever the word is father tomy offspring.

(49:35):
And so from that he started todo that.
But that wasn't until I waslike 15, 16.
And it's still sometimes astruggle where I'm like Dad,
shut up Kind of thing.
But seeing that transformationhas been very.
It's been challenging at times,but it's also been really good
at times as well.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
I noticed that parents tend to at least on some
sometimes consciously,sometimes unconsciously try to
give their kids what they didn'tget, and there's often an
overcorrection in the process.
So people who had reallyauthoritarian parenting become
permissive parents, people whowere neglected, get helicopter

(50:21):
parenting for their own kids.
And I noticed even in thisconversation, that I as a kid
was held to really highstandards And that it wasn't
until you framed authoritativeparenting the way that you did.
I thought, oh yeah, some ofthat actually benefited me and

(50:43):
it would be okay to try to givemy own children the highest
potential that they're capableof, because I know they're going
to be capable of amazing things.
And the difference there wasthat I had a standard where it
was like you need to do thisbecause that's what we expect of

(51:04):
you, versus I know you can dothis and I will help you get
there, although there was a lotof help.
so maybe I don't know isunpacking that would be.
I'll save it for my own therapy.
But I'm curious how is it thatyou identify the overcorrections

(51:26):
where someone's trying to dosomething good but they maybe
are going a little bit to theopposite direction?

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Yeah, how I identify it.
It's really more nuanced, likeit's something.
I'm really good at observingthe behavior and picking it back
to where it came from.
What's a good example?
Okay, say, for instance, youhave a parent that's really

(52:00):
overbearing.
You don't want to do that foryour kid, so you let your kid go
wild.
Your kid can do whatever youdon't mind.
There's no sense of boundary.
That is an overcorrection.
You're doing something becauseof an unresolved trauma that you
have yet to deal with.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
It sounds like what you do when you see a parent's
behavior is you do the samething.
You're going into their worldand trying to identify where
that behavior originated,because with kids the
origination points probably alittle closer.
The question that came up forme just now because of my wife
and son, how to handle just theamount of work parenting, is

(52:42):
Because I know that my wife andI have moments where we're just
tired.
We've been going all day andwe're doing all the things.
There's a lot of energy thatgoes into raising a toddler, so

(53:02):
I'm curious how you'd suggesthandling that.
It's also a little exaggeratedtoday because she got sick
recently and so there's a littleless energy.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
I ain't got no kids.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
I would say this Anytime working with kids.
I'm a middle school teacher.
I can tell you this You have toschedule and routine.
You have to.
If your schedule is all overthe place, it's not going to
work as well.
You want to make sure that whenyou do something one day, they

(53:41):
can anticipate that the next.
There is structure, there isroutine, there is scheduling.
There is trade-off.
There is also sacrifice.
You're going to have tosacrifice sleep.
You're going to have tosacrifice time.
You're going to have tosacrifice energy.
Kids are parasites that leachoff of you and they will drain

(54:02):
you of resources, both food andenergy and emotions.
That's just what it is.
For 18 years, my auntie had mylittle cousin.
Before she was pregnant, shewas so full of life, she was
everything, and then the day shehad her, boom, tired,

(54:23):
perpetually.
She's still tired.
My cousin is 20 years old.
My auntie is still tired.
She'll fall asleep sitting up.
It's crazy.
That's just kids.
The only way that you canreally deal with it is making
sure that you're managing yourtime better, managing your
resources, eating healthy so youhave some energy If you can,
because kids are a lot.

(54:43):
They're a lot of people who arestruggling routine structure.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
That's what I'd say.
Is there anything that you wantto talk about that?
I didn't ask about that.
We should make sure we get to.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Gentle parenting or authoritative parenting is
privileged parenting.
I want people to understandthat It is very easy for a lot
of and I'm speaking specificallyto my black and brown and
indigenous communities.
We can easily fall into thisidea that gentle parenting is

(55:22):
easy for white families becausethere's more of a privilege
there.
Gentle parenting is privilegedparenting, but it is a sacrifice
.
You owe it to yourself, yourparents, your ancestors and your
children.
To raise your children withgentle parenting, you have to

(55:44):
take the time.
You're going to be tired,you're going to be worried out,
you're going to give everything.
When I tell you that the payoffsfor gentle parenting are so
incredibly astronaut, the changethat you see in children is
remarkable.
You will raise your child theway your parents did and you
will have all five of your kidsat completely different.

(56:06):
I'm not saying everybody hasfive kids, but if you have five
kids, all of those kids can turnout differently.
But when you raise yourchildren with gentle parenting,
with authoritative parenting,where you're getting them to
communicate how they feel,getting them to be in touch and
identify their emotions and cancritically think about what
their actions are, you will seea complete change in all of

(56:28):
those communities.
It looks like letting go ofwhat our ancestors went through
and embracing what our ancestorsactually would have been doing
had they stayed in theiruntouched indigenous communities
.
That's what I want to say.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
What does the term privilege parenting mean?
I've heard the term privilege,obviously, but I don't know that
particular phrase.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
It's the same kind of thing.
Recently on TikTok there was athing where a black woman, a
black gentle parenter who Iactually mutuals with on TikTok,
was explaining how gentleparenting is privileged
parenting and she was explaininghow she has to wash her
daughter's hair.
When her daughter has to gether hair washed she has a fear

(57:14):
of water and she freaks out.
This is a black woman with ablack child that has 4C hair.
A whole bunch of gentle parentson TikTok were talking about
that's ridiculous.
You shouldn't have to spendthat much time doing your
daughter's hair.
There was a cultural disconnectwhere they didn't understand
that it's not a 10, 20 minuteprocess to get a black child's

(57:37):
4C hair into presentablehairstyles.
What society considers what?
do you call it presentable?
Black people want to get theirhair.
My hair takes seven hours if Ido it myself.
Outside of that, it takes twohours to get my hair done.
I don't just wash it once, iwash it numerous times.
The concept of I can just dothis, that's a privilege,

(58:04):
because over here, if your childis neurodivergent, you don't
always have the privilege ofbeing able to do gentle
parenting the way that somebodywhose child is neurotypical does
.
It's completely different,because I've had a kid who has
seizures and would lash out andbe violent because of those
seizures.
What do you say to somebodylike that?
There has to be that level ofempathy.

(58:25):
Gentle parenting is privileged.
There are privileges that comewith gentle parenting.
A neurotypical child?
It comes.
There's a privilege that comeswith gentle parenting an
affluent child or a Caucasianchild in an affluent area.
The converse isn't true.
It's harder for a lot of peoplewho are people of color or in

(58:48):
poverty or disabled to raise achild with gentle parenting.
We in the gentle parentingcommunity have to understand and
accept that and then developtools and skills for people who
are in those communities tobetter raise their children.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
Got it.
The idea is that it's very easyto be a gentle parent when all
the cards are stacked in yourfavor and when maybe some things
are not in your favor or you'replaying at a disadvantage or
your child has some unique needs, that's when it becomes a

(59:25):
little more challenging.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Right, because you're not going to be a single mom
with three kids working afull-time job, coming home and
your kids are running around,they ain't got no sense, got bad
grades at and up in school.
You have to take time out ofyour schedule to go deal with
the fact that your child is uphere at in the school like he
ain't got no sense and failing.
At the same time, you'remissing work, they get suspended

(59:48):
.
You have to miss work to stayhome with them kids, or you have
to leave them home alone andthey can get into even more
stuff.
So it's not always, oh, cut andpaste black and white.
No, there's a whole nuance toit.
It's hard work, it's harderwork, it's almost impossible
work, but it has to be done andit's not impossible.

(01:00:09):
There just has to be skills andtools and concepts that are
tweaked a little bit for eachsituation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
How would you apply that tweaking or how is it that
you know?
okay, in my situation, i needsomething different.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
So the principles of behavior modification and skill
acquisition are pretty muchsynonymous across the board for
behavior in general.
So whether you're a dog,whether you're a goldfish or a
human, they're all generally thesame, and so what that looks
like is reward or operantconditioning.
Honestly, it's justconditioning a child into

(01:00:50):
recognizing that there's a skillor behavior that is associated
with something good.
So the principle once you havethe principle down, you
understand that it can beapplied anywhere.
If my child is struggling withI don't know, pick something
talking in class.
Like me, i talked a lot inclass.
Okay, they're talking a lot inclass.

(01:01:12):
What I don't reward them everytime they're quiet.
One of the things I did for mystudents this semester is I
found out that they could onlybe quiet for about a good two
minutes max.
So I set it to about a minuteand 30 seconds, and for every
one minute and 30 seconds Iwalked around and I gave each
kid an M&M or a Skittle.
I slowly increased it byincrements until it got to the

(01:01:35):
point where they were beingquiet by themselves for up to
three minutes before they wouldstart to get wrestles, to start
moving around.
That's because they wereconditioned, and then I slowly
pushed it up to where they couldlast a little bit longer and
longer and longer.
That's not out of the realm ofpossibility, it's just tweaking
it for each kid.
Meanwhile I have one kid in oneof the classes who was just
randomly yell out when he hadsome sort of overstimulation.

(01:01:58):
He was just ah, for no reason.
For no reason other thanoverstimulation, the class got a
little bit too loud.
He was screened For things likethat.
I told him he can go take awalk outside Completely
different strategy, but it stillgot the same process done.
When he needed something, hecould do.
This.
It's kind of that simple.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
So in one case, the reward of talking got replaced
with the reward for being quiet,and in the other place, the
underlying need wasoverstimulation, and so he
needed to have someunder-simulation.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
All behaviors communication.
You just got to know what thebehavior is communicating.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
How is it you identify what the communication
behind the behavior is?

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
You mentioned you have a unique skill for it, but
You got to be observant, youhave to listen, you have to
watch, look and listen and playthe game.
When I'm working with my dog,he'll communicate different
things And, like right now he'sbarking, he's whimpering And I'm

(01:03:14):
not out there, but I know hewants attention because that's
how he begs for attention.
Okay, i can either give himattention or I can withhold the
attention.
I can reinforce when he's doingit and he'll keep doing it, or
I can choose to not do it and hewon't do it as often, or he'll
keep doing it, but I know whathe wants and then I can
determine at that point what Iwant to do.

(01:03:35):
So it's really just looking andbuilding a relationship with
your kid to understand whatthey're doing.
Anytime I work with a client andthey're saying oh, my kid has
been acting like this, one ofthe first questions I ask is how
long have they been doing it?
Okay, what was happening aroundthat time?
Oh, that's what happened.
Oh, his dad died.
Well, baby, that's why he'sacting out in school, probably

(01:03:59):
because his dad died.
You should probably put him ingrief counseling.
That's fine, but that's kind ofhow we deduce what's going on.
That's how I can determine whatthe behavior is, or what the
behavior is coming from.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
So Is there anything else that you want to add before
we finish?
Anything that you feel like Ishould ask, anything that you
want to make sure we talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Nope, just buy my book.
Be patient with yourself, bepatient with your kids And
forgive yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
That's it.
I had one last thought, whichis it strikes me that a lot of
what you're saying also appliesto adult relationships.
It applies to marriages andfriendships and families.
Is there a way that thatapplies differently than it does
to kids, or is it all the same?
It's really all the same.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
We have to recognize that kids are going to grow up
to be adults.
We're training little adults.
They're not adults yet, sodon't try to adultify them, but
recognize that they're going tostart understanding the nuances
of adult communication And solet's teach them to normalize it
young.
And also let's get to the pointwhere we realize that the way

(01:05:14):
society has operated for a longtime has been a repression of
who we're supposed to be,naturally Kids and how
vulnerable, how unfiltered, howraw they express themselves is
how we're supposed to be.
The concept of holding thatback is not natural.

(01:05:40):
There's tech that we shouldabsolutely definitely be
teaching and respect in manners,but the level of vulnerability
to say I don't like that, thatmade me mad, that made me sad, i
don't like you, that's perfect.
You can say those things.
Let's just teach the skill onhow to resolve those issues.

(01:06:02):
So no, let's get to the pointwhere we realize that we can
absolutely embrace who we'resupposed to be.
That's fine, i love that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
How do you resolve when a big feeling comes out
that maybe isn't more sociallyacceptable?
So if a kid says I hate you orI'm so angry or whatever that is
, how is it you meet that?

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Oh, ok, there it is.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
What did I do?
What can we do to make it better?
And they don't want to say it,don't they?
When they calm down which everykid will inevitably do, and
then you're their friend again,they just have a conversation.
Hey, when you said you hate me,do you actually hate me?

(01:06:56):
OK?
well, when you get upset likethat, that word is big and that
word can hurt.
So what's something else youcan say instead of I hate you,
you made me mad.
Oh, that's perfect.
OK, what can we do to fix that?
What can I do to fix what I didto you?
It's getting in their world andrecognizing that they are

(01:07:18):
trying to fit in our world.
That's OK.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Well, i think that might be a good note to end on.
Is there anything else you wantto add before we finish?
I've asked you that three times, then I've gone off on
completely new conversations,but this one I'm sure will be,
this one I'm sure will be theend.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
All right.
Well, no, that's that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
All right.
well, thank you so much forcoming on.
This has been a really goodconversation.
I've had a number of light bulbmoments in terms of things that
I can apply in my own life, Sothank you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
I'm glad I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
You're welcome.
You're welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Thank you for listening to the Brendan Marotta
Show.
If you liked this episode,please leave a positive review
on whatever platform you listento podcasts on.
If you really liked thisepisode, please support the show
and become a paying subscriber,giving you access to special
bonus material only available tosupporters of the show.
I want to thank you forlistening to this show and I

(01:08:22):
will talk to you all later.