June 6, 2023 • 73 mins
Joe Speredon speaks on the transformative power of men's circles, and shares how he responded to a personal crisis by joining Sacred Sons, participating in a real-life fight club, and letting go of the masks men wear to embrace his authentic self. We discuss the unique challenges men face, how to set children up for success, and how to find a men's group that is right for you. Listen to learn about the masculine.
Timestamps
- 0:00 - Men's Emotional Growth and Authenticity
- 14:12 - Masculine Health and Conscious Combat
- 31:36 - Masculinity and Awareness
- 39:47 - The Importance of Emotional Awareness
- 51:14 - Exploring Spirituality in Men's Groups
- 1:02:12 - Embrace Yourself in Men's Circles
Resources
- Joe Speredon Instagram
- Algiz Guard (Joe's Men's Group)
- Sacred Sons
AI Tools used in the creation of this episode include Autopod and Buzzsprout CohostAI.
Subscribe and support the show directly:
https://brendonmarotta.com/show/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All of you is welcome here.
So bring all your parts.
Bring the parts that you thinkare ugly.
Bring the parts that you'reashamed of.
Bring the parts you don't tellpeople about, because, come to
find out, you're not the onlyone.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You're listening to the Brendan Murata Show.
In this episode I talked to JoeSpeardin about sacred sons and
men circles.
Joe is one of the few guestsI've actually met in person.
We met on a self-developmentretreat and I was incredibly
struck by his energy and wantedto interview him on this podcast
.
In this episode we talk about awhole range of topics,
(00:36):
everything from getting more intouch with your emotions,
removing the various masks thatmen wear.
We talk about larger socialtopics like capitalism and
religion.
We talk about how peacefulparenting uniquely benefits men
all sorts of different things.
So if you are someone who isinterested in getting in touch
with your authentic self andincreasing your awareness in
(00:58):
understanding men, or areyourself a man who wants to
better understand yourself,listen to this episode now.
So, without further ado, hereis Joe.
What did bring you into men'swork?
Let's start there.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
As it does for many men kind of the cliched midlife
crisis back in 2020, which Iknow is crisis time for many
people ironically was the year Iwas turning 40 years old and
found myself in that spot that alot of men are at, where I've
(01:36):
done the family thing, i havethe family, i have the wife and
the kids and the home and thecareer and all that stuff and
realized that I didn't feelfulfilled, i didn't feel
complete and felt a lot of guiltaround.
That Felt a lot of panic,anxiety, that type of stuff, and
(01:59):
I didn't know what to do And,being a man, i'd been
conditioned most of my life tojust kind of like stuff it down,
you know, and not talk about it, just deal with it.
If you ignore it long enough,it's going to go away, and that
(02:19):
became impossible I guess is oneway to put it.
I got to a point where theprospect of not being here
actually became viable, and thatwasn't something I'd ever
considered before in my life.
So when that happened, itreally scared me in a way that I
(02:42):
hadn't been scared before, andI started to kind of search
force managers And fortunately,one of the answers that I was
introduced to was Sacred Sons,which is an organization.
They're all over the globe Andthey're more retreat based,
(03:04):
right, and if you look at theirdemographic, if you look at
their imagery, their marketingme being this white, middle-aged
, middle-class suburban daddidn't really feel like I fit.
But I didn't know what else todo, and so I signed up for one
of their events and drove toSouthern California And I mean,
(03:31):
it's a whole story in and ofitself, but what happened there
is, i finally felt like I couldtalk about what was real, and I
was given a space to do thatwith other men.
And not only was I allowed todo that, i wasn't mocked for it,
i wasn't judged as weak orinferior, and what shocked me
(03:53):
the most is I had a whole bunchof other men saying, yeah, me
too.
And that was amazing, becauseit had never really even
occurred to me that other menwere feeling some of these same
things Because, again, we don'ttalk about it.
So that was the first step, wasthat event, and then just the
steps that followed from there.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So what specifically was it that you were feeling?
Because it sounds like thesacred sons of me that gave you
a space to express that.
But what originally was that?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
You know, I can't say that it was just one thing.
The thing is is that I wasfeeling, And I think I just got
to a point in my life where Icouldn't repress that any longer
And I was like repress that anylonger.
I was pretty open to feelingall the good stuff.
I'd feel joy, I'd feelhappiness, I'd feel pride in my
(04:52):
children or in the work that Idid, I would feel excitement as
I was building something.
But when fear came up, whenanxiety came up, when sadness
came up, when depression came up, I didn't know what to do with
that.
So I didn't do anything with it, I ignored it, I repressed it
(05:13):
And it just got to that pointwhere it was all coming up and I
couldn't stop feeling it.
And so it was all of thoseemotions, all of the emotions
that I had grown up labeling asbad.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So I was on a podcast of another woman who described
feeling as an aspect of thefeminine, and I pushed back a
little bit on that when I heardthat because I feel like that's
very much a culturalconstruction.
So I'm curious from yourperspective.
It sounds like for you, feelingbecame much safer in the
(05:50):
company of men, and so I'mcurious from your perspective
how those emotions andexpressing those emotions fits
in with the masculine.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, i love that.
How it fits in with themasculine is even within men we
have masculinity and femininity,right, energies, traits,
whatever you'd like to call that.
I don't believe that emotion orfeeling is necessarily feminine
.
The level of attunement and thelevel of engagement with those
(06:26):
emotions, i think the feminineis more, not susceptible, but
just more in alignment.
In alignment with with those.
And if you look at the way we'veevolved, that would make sense,
as they were more thannurturers, the caretakers, the
caregivers, as they had childrenthat were feeling things, they
(06:48):
needed to be more attuned tothose emotions.
They needed to be able torecognize those.
Man evolved doing differentthings and we weren't we weren't
as attuned.
So what it's done for me inbeing able to feel my emotions,
as far as my masculinity goes,is it's allowed me to step into
(07:12):
it more fully And it's allowedme to be more authentic in what
that is.
A lot of masculinity that weidentify as toxic masculinity is
really, i think, a mask, andthat mask is generally fear.
But when we're empowered to sayI'm afraid, then the mask comes
(07:34):
off And what comes through isis true, authentic masculinity,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It does Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, i would say the same experience with it or I
would say this, something verysimilar.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
The thing that's coming to mind, though, is that
I think you can tell a lot abouta person by what mask they
choose to wear, or what theythink the safe face to put
forward is, and so I'm curiouswhat masks do you see men
wearing?
And then, what mask did you,did you see yourself wearing?
Because I know that very oftenin my own life, i've made the
(08:15):
mistake of picking the wrongmask, so to speak.
In other words, i thought I wasdoing something that was safe,
but it was actually much lesssafe than actually just being my
full, authentic self.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Absolutely, And that's the irony, right Is we
will wear masks, thinking thatthat is going to make others
feel safer, that that is goingto help others be more willing
to connect to us, But it doesthe exact opposite.
The mask that I see the mostand I appreciate you saying the
mask that I saw as in past tense, that I wore I still struggle,
(08:48):
right, That's still somethingthat I have to be aware of every
day And I still have to workwith every day The primary mask
is the mask of having it alltogether, of having everything
figured out, whether that'saround my career, whether that's
around fatherhood, whetherthat's around the economy or any
(09:09):
aspect of my life, my physicalhealth, all of these things
right, Even my office, right.
You can see behind me it lookspretty nice and organized, But
if you see in front of me it'snot quite as organized.
That's a mask And that mask isthe tray that I've got it all
together right, i will betotally transparent.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
This is a film set.
This is right.
I don't have my officesnormally not lit like this.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So and we do that to portray certain things, And I
don't I don't believe that thesame thing is.
Authenticity Does not mean youowe everybody every aspect of
your life right, And so the waythat I talk to my grandmother is
different than the way that Italk to my 12-year-old son and
the things that we talk about.
(09:55):
Am I less authentic with onethan the other?
No, There's just differentaspects of myself that I'm
revealing.
The mask is when I feel like,no matter who I'm talking to, I
need to be somebody differentthan who I am for them, And that
is the work.
But I see that happening veryoften.
(10:16):
Some of the other masks that alot of men like to wear
specifically are wealth or thejoker.
You know the guy that just hehas a joke anytime anything
comes up that is uncomfortableAnd he just likes to laugh and
make other people laugh becausethat's better than having to cry
.
Those are probably the biggestones that I'm seeing with men in
(10:42):
this day and age.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
You mentioned Sacred Sons.
When you go to a group likethat because as I understand it
that's a men's retreat group ora men's circle What is it that
you're able to do there thatyou're not able to do in the
regular world?
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Beautiful question.
It's not so much about abilityas it is focus.
When you go to that event, thefocus is authentic connection to
your own heart and to other men.
When you are out in the world,the real world, as it were that
(11:22):
isn't everybody's primary focus,and so what I've tried to do
and what my goal has been sincethat very first event, is I'm
now in my community trying tocreate a life.
you don't need to retreat from,a life that you can do that
here and now.
And so that's creating, youknow, men's circles here locally
(11:45):
, creating a culture herelocally.
that's taking those things thatI've learned at Sacred Sons and
introducing them.
But yeah, outside of that, isthere a special energy that
comes with that?
Absolutely, because men areshowing up in that intentional
space of I need this, i wantthis, i'm ready for this, and
(12:09):
the discomfort of change is nowfinally less than discomfort of
staying the same and they'reready to make that switch.
But I think that's an excellentquestion because there's
actually a danger in that.
I love Sacred Sons, iparticipate in multiple events a
year And I think if you askSacred Sons what they're going
(12:31):
to look like in 10 years, itwon't be what they're doing now,
because, as this grows at anexponential rate, the retreat
space is no longer about that,because that's everywhere.
Now it's about what are bestpractices.
Now it's about leadership.
Now it's about exploration andgrowth together, rather than
(12:54):
introduction.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Moving from a retreat to an advance, so to speak.
Yeah, absolutely So.
That was actually a questionthat I was going to ask is what
that sort of practice looks likein the real world, so to speak,
or in an intentional community,because I think that's
something a lot of people want.
I know I've gone to retreats orto conferences or things where
(13:21):
there's a group of peoplegetting together with a very
intentional purpose or sharedvision or mission, and very
often what happens is there's acontainer and there's a great
experience, and then everybodyleaves and that's it, like it's
over.
You don't see them again, andso I'm wondering what that looks
like in an ongoing practice ofsome kind, or how that would be
(13:46):
created in the first place.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Right, great, great question, and that's continued
to be an evolution for me.
But two examples that I'll give.
The first is anybody that'sever been through any kind of
rehabilitation from an addiction?
right, rehabilitation centerscan be amazing And the majority
(14:09):
of the time people will returnto their addiction.
Did the rehabilitation centernot teach something that they
should have?
or they not given the rightskills and ability?
Of course they were, but theyhave to return to their family
and they have to return to thepeople that don't also share
those skills, that also don'tshare those mindsets and those
(14:30):
practices that are happening.
So what that looks like, firstand foremost, is there are other
people there doing the samething day to day.
Even if you're not doing ittogether, you're just all doing
it.
So the analogy that I'll givehere is a gym, right, physical
(14:51):
health.
100 years ago, gyms would havebeen unthinkable, right, like,
why would we need a gym?
We just go and work.
But then a society evolved andchanged and we did more desk
jobs and some of this stuff.
Life got more comfortable.
We found it necessary to createa space to go simulate some of
the things we used to have to do, and that's very much what
(15:15):
men's work is right now is as wehave moved away from each other
as men and become more isolatedand not talk to each other, not
connecting, not knowing how tobe vulnerable with each other.
We're creating regular placesthat you can go and get a
workout in your masculine healthSo you can go to a circle
(15:38):
that's happening once a weeksomewhere and just have an
opportunity to get together withmen and talk and get together
and talk about real life and gettogether to meditate or drop in
for a few minutes and say Iwonder how I am feeling, what is
present for me, because Ihaven't thought about that in 35
years.
I should probably take a secondand consider that Having those
(16:02):
spaces, having those times toget together and do things with
other men Outside of work whichthe majority of the places that
men connect with other men iswork, sometimes sports or like a
bar All pretty superficial andnot going to help you connect
(16:26):
further into your own heart.
So, if that answers yourquestion, that's part of what
I'm trying to do is I'm creatingdifferent modalities for men to
join together and get a goodworkout for their masculine
health.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So using this gym analogy, what is the muscle that
you're working out in a grouplike this?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Oh damn that's a good question Your heart, Just plain
and simple.
In the world that we live inyou look at any movie men are
generally allowed to show aboutthree emotions We're allowed to
(17:11):
show anger, We're allowed toshow pride And, to a certain
level, we're able to show somehappiness.
But even guys that are toohappy, everybody like what's up
with that guy, Like that there'ssomething off with somebody if
they're just, if they're toohappy.
So being able to open yourheart and let the walls down
(17:33):
around it and let it heal andlet it shine out is what we're
working, And we find lots of funways to do that.
That wouldn't necessarily youwouldn't necessarily think is
your heart.
Most people wouldn't think thatgetting punched in your face is
(17:54):
going to help you connect intoyour heart, But it does.
For example, that's that's oneof the things that we do is
we'll have some we call itconscious combat as one of our
modalities.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
So hold on.
What is conscious combatinvolved?
You got to break that one down.
I'm curious now.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
So Fight Club had it like 60 percent right, 50 to 60
percent right, the whole blowingup buildings, like creating.
That part I'm not in favor of.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But I'm out now.
You had me go in there for asecond.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Most men, their association with aggression is
repression.
As young boys, you know, stopfighting, stop rough housing,
stop doing that.
You're going to make yoursister cry, you're going to make
your brother cry, you're goingto hurt yourself, right.
And then if you did experienceit, it was generally in the form
of some kind of abuse, and thenit's the same thing.
(18:55):
Don't talk to anybody aboutthis, you're fine, You're
blowing this out of proportionor whatever it is.
Aggression is a very naturalmasculine trait and
characteristic and one that'shonestly necessary to our not
only our survival but ourthriving in society.
(19:17):
And so when you create a spacethat is safe for men to get in
together, put on some gloves Tolook each other in the eyes and
see this man as your brother,and meet him in that space and
say this is my intention, andyou get to tell your story, and
(19:39):
he gets to hear your story.
He gets to hear what's going tobe hardest for you.
You're going to hear what youwant to experience.
And then you step into thatspace and you meet your brother
there and you box and you getpunched in the face.
And if you grew up gettingpunched in the face, there are
some demons to face there, rightIf you grew up being told that
(20:02):
you were going to hurt somebody,if you expressed any kind of
rough house in your play,something's going to come up
there.
And so, more often than youwould believe, after a two
minute round, you're tired butyou're crying too.
You're crying because youfinally got to this place, to
where you could release theshame, the guilt, the
(20:25):
conditioning, the resentment,whatever it might be around that
, and in that you findliberation.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
So that's really interesting to me.
It sounds like you'reseparating the aggression from
the animosity, because for mostpeople, the only time they punch
someone in the face is if theyreally don't like that person.
And yet there might be afeeling or an aspect of a person
that wants to express itselfthat way And you're sort of
(20:54):
creating a safe container forthat.
Is that an accurateunderstanding?
Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
The society that we're in right now because we
don't have healthy and safeoutlets for a lot of that.
When does it happen?
It happens when you're drunkand therefore some of your
inhibitions have been lowered orlessened.
You're not able to be incommand of yourself quite at the
same level and something snaps,and it generally is not just
(21:23):
aggressive but violent anddestructive, and with animosity,
with contention, and so thoseare the narratives that we have
around that.
But when you create a place forthat to be healthy, where we
don't just box, you can wrestle,you can arm wrestle, you can
play, you know, whatever itmight be, there's a healthy
(21:44):
place for that to be expressed.
Then you're at the bar andsomebody bumps up against you.
There's not 10 layers of thingsboiling down underneath that,
just somebody bumped you, youknow.
So I think in this expression alot of the violent and
contentious experiences that wehave and see with confrontation
(22:09):
subside the go away.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You're reminding me.
I've heard it said thatconflict can be good and
actually bring people closertogether if you work it out.
In other words, if you have adisagreement with someone and
you have a fight with them, butat the end of the fight there's
some resolution, the two peopleare closer than they were at the
beginning.
And, yeah, it strikes me that alot of modern culture, because
(22:39):
there are mixed gendered spaceseverywhere.
Women process that conflictdifferently and so, one, the
conflict doesn't often getresolved.
And two, there's oftendifferent ideas about resolution
of the conflict.
And so it strikes me that this,this version of conflict
resolution, so to speak, is veryintentional in that, like
(23:02):
there's a clear resolution to it, there's an end, whereas the
other thing that happens ifthere's violence in the real
world, so to speak, is that theresolution is usually one person
dies or someone gets reallyseriously hurt and and it isn't
resolved in the terms of, youknow, there's a clear agreement
that it's going to end.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Right, you know, in in masculinity, in the form of
masculinity that I've come toidentify with, there are four
masculine archetypes, and one ofthose archetypes is the warrior
.
The warrior meant something2000 years ago that would not
fit in today's society.
(23:46):
It just doesn't right.
And so when we talk aboutwarrior energy, aggression is
going to be part of that.
Now I will say what we're doingin this combat.
Very rarely do the two guys inthe ring together have any kind
of an issue with each other atall.
Sure, generally what they'reresolving is an issue with dad
(24:10):
from 30 years ago, right, or anissue with brother or whatever
that might be.
But yes, in conflict there is ahealthy way to express
aggression and expressfrustration, and my experience
has generally been that's with amediator, that's with somebody
that can be there impartially,that has love for both of the
(24:33):
people there.
So, again, this requires peopleto gather and be together to
have that happen, and we have awhole process for that, for
conflict resolution as well,that we experienced.
But I would very much agree,like as we learn these skills
and as we get rid of a lot ofthe repressed emotion not get
(24:53):
rid of, but express a lot of therepressed emotion, conflict
resolution becomes much easier,much easier.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You know, that's something I've struggled with in
the spaces that I often work inis that there's a separation
between the professional workand the personal development,
spiritual work.
And I find that, you know, Ioften get along very well with
people who do self developmentwork of some kind, but those
(25:24):
aren't always the people I'mencountering when I'm working
professionally or trying to hiresomeone or trying to get
someone to hire me, And so I'mwondering if there's a way that
you can bring that into you knowthe quote, unquote, real world
and include that in somebody,Because I would love to work
with people who are doing thiskind of work or who are
(25:47):
committed to that kind ofconflict resolution.
But you know, the overlap isn'talways there.
So I'm curious how you findthat or create that.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So I'm part of an organization called Embodied
Exec and that's part of whatwe're doing.
We're still relatively smalland that process is another one
of those cultural shifts that isgoing to take some time to
change.
But really what needs to happenis that changes from the top
down, and so when you can findthe CEOs, the presidents, the
(26:23):
owners you know whoever it isthat can affect change in a
company And they can introduceworkers, they can introduce
people into an environment.
they can talk to their HR teamand send them for training.
They can talk to their salesteam and send them for training
or bring somebody into theirplace of employment.
(26:46):
Our whole mission there isprofit through purpose, which
necessitates that you know yourpurpose right, rather than
profit over purpose, which isunfortunately generally what we
see in the world.
So, absolutely, i feel you.
This is very needed And it isvery much mocked by most of the
(27:07):
people in those spaces as hippie, woo-woo kind of weak mindset,
and that's just what I thinkcapitalism has evolved into up
to this point.
It doesn't need to be oneagainst the other, it just needs
to be integrated into it.
So I completely agree and Ibelieve it's just taking time.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I'm curious how you would respond to the people who
have that objection, that theysay oh, this is, you know, weak
woo-woo, all those things thatyou mentioned.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Right, you know we're seeing it in little places,
here and there, we're seeing atleast people starting to
understand the value of some ofthis stuff, and it could be
something as simple as like hey,we're gonna give you a ping
pong table and video games andsnacks.
Now, that's like the.
(28:06):
It's the most basic of steps,but it's I'm going to recognize
that you're a human being andthat you need to be treated as
such, which means you need to beable to rest and relax and have
fun once in a while.
Right, that was a step in theright direction.
Was it placating?
maybe a little bit, right, butsteps like that is what needs to
(28:29):
happen.
And as more of those stepshappen, you see the proof of
concept behind it, and I've beendoing this long enough.
Now for myself that I also am areal estate agent.
I've also owned other companiesand you know, pursuing other
things, that I've put this intopractice and I do a lot of
(28:50):
public speaking at differentsales teams and you know local
companies here in Utah to talkabout these exact things.
You know we have so many CEOs,so many millionaires that are
absolutely miserable And,unfortunately, we just needed
enough time to show that moneywas not going to get you all the
happiness and fulfillment thatyou wanted in life.
(29:12):
So there are more and morepeople getting the lack of a
proof of concept over here withmaking all the money and more
people with the proof of conceptof, hey, maybe I'm making a
little less, but I actually lovemyself and my employees love
their lives and want to stay.
You know the way you sell it.
You talk about employeeretention, you talk about
(29:34):
workplace environment.
You talk about productivityincrease.
You know that type of stuff,but what really happens is you
just like it's better becauseyou learn that work life,
integration and harmony.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I appreciate what you said about capitalism and
profit over purpose, because alot of the ideas that we have
around masculinity came about asa result of industrialization.
If you read, for example, thewritings of the medieval knights
or King Arthur and his men,there's a lot of stories of men
openly weeping at various thingsthat happen.
(30:14):
And it's during the industrialrevolution that there's a shift
in attitudes where factoryowners begin to see that as a
problem or as a waste of time,because if you are essentially
turning people into tools, intomachines that just have to screw
one widget in, then you don'tneed things like emotion, and so
(30:36):
then emotion becomes a quote,unquote non-masculine trait,
whereas the work that we do now,or that most people do now,
does require them to do morethan just turn one bolt in, and
it actually the emotions aperson has do impact it in some
way.
So I think there's maybe also ashift in people and people's
(30:59):
attitudes towards this, becausethere's been a shift in what's
required of men and what work isactually useful, and so I would
be curious if there's anydifference in who accepts it,
which groups you see as beingmost likely and most willing to
accept this site type of stuffand which are most resistant to
(31:20):
it.
I would be curious to know whatsort of response you've gotten
from different groups.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, let me start by saying this In that warrior
archetype, in each archetype,there are polarizations.
There's an active and a passivepolarization.
The warrior archetype, theactive polarization, is the
sadist right.
And that was that boss that waslike you will do this, stop
(31:49):
crying, i don't care.
Right.
He's driven by fear.
He wants his productivity to goup, right.
And we recognize themisalignment on that side.
And, adaptive beings as we are,on the other side of that is
the masochist.
And really what we see so oftenwith men is really doubling
(32:11):
down on that.
If I'm not suffering, i mustnot be doing enough.
If I'm not miserable, somethingmust be wrong.
And so it started, maybe overhere, with the sadist telling us
that.
And then we bought it and nowwe're down for it.
Right, we should be suffering,that's right, and we idealize it
(32:34):
.
Growing up in my own family Andit's not just my family, but in
my own family, look how hardthat works.
That's miserable, that is tired, he's exhausted, he hates his
job.
Be so grateful, right, love himmore.
And we celebrate themisalignment And I know I've
(32:55):
fallen into that myself manytimes.
So in that awareness of thosepolarizations and then coming
back into alignment, werecognize again the need for
integration of those things.
So to answer your firstquestion, who do I see buying
(33:18):
into it?
those that can afford to.
If somebody is working foranother company and they have a
nine to five job and it's quitestrict and they have protocols
and they have quotas and there'snot room in the budget for them
to go to retreat if there's nottime for them to get away and
do these other things, at leastin the story they're telling
(33:41):
themselves they're not pursuingit.
Those that are entrepreneurs,those that own companies, those
that have maybe reached acertain level of success in
their own lives, that now maybetheir sales position is a little
more relaxed, they're seekingthat stuff out because they're
recognizing the damage they'vedone to themselves by getting to
(34:05):
that point.
So those are the differences,probably in the groups that I
don't even think it's a matterof who's willing.
It's just a matter of whothinks they can.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
It's really interesting.
a lot of the stuff that you'retalking about feels to me like
human work, even though you'recalling it work around
masculinity.
it's just that men have beenharmed or uniquely impacted by
systems in certain ways, and sothe healing there is different
(34:39):
for them than someone else who'sbeen in a different system or
who had different culturalprogramming.
Because it's does that mean isthat fair to say?
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Absolutely it is And that's I think that's an
important thing to say as wellThere's no exclusivity in the
suffering of the masculine andmen to really anybody else.
That is the group that Iidentify with, that is the group
that resonates with me and thatI feel called to serve, and so
(35:12):
there are modalities, there aremethods, there are effective
things that can be done to helpthat group, and that group does
have a large level of influencein the world.
So, as that group is affectedin these positive ways, my
intention is that that will moveout into other groups as well,
(35:34):
and that's important.
And there are other people thatare pursuing that, and I can go
into beautiful women's workthat I'm seeing happen and work
that is done really without afocus on masculine, feminine
energies or gender at all, aswell, but that's more where I'm
focused.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Well, is there a part of this that is uniquely
masculine and, if so, what?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
The experience that men have been having the past
hundred years is different thanthe experience that women have
been having for the past hundredyears.
So the way that men have beenraised, the way that men have
been conditioned, the thingsthat men believe they need to be
(36:27):
and the things that theybelieve they should and
shouldn't feel, i believe ismore common in men than it is in
women.
And so, to point out onespecific thing, i'd have to
think about that Something assimple as crying right, if a man
(36:52):
cries versus if a woman cries,there are different assumptions
made about that who that personis, if that's a good thing, if
that's a bad thing, and thoseneed to be addressed with those
people.
I know, with men, for example,if we're gonna talk about
(37:12):
pornography, there is no waythey're ready.
Many men, most men, there is noway they're ready to talk about
that in front of women.
And then I've also met othermen that will only talk about
that with women because theydon't feel safe talking about
that with men.
So, just like everything elsein our world, it's gotten much
(37:35):
smaller.
We're seeing all differentsides of this and a lot of
different aspects and dynamicsthat maybe we didn't see before,
and I've seen a group that Iknow benefits from a focus on
the masculine, from themasculine, and as they step into
healthier aspects of themselves, they're then able to have a
(37:58):
better effect on the feminine intheir life, the other masculine
in their life, and so on and soforth.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
So if someone does all this work, if they go to
groups like this, if theyconnect to different aspects of
themselves and other people,what's the end result?
In other words, if say they doit all, then what?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Awareness.
That, to me, is really what anyof us are going for in life.
Any healing journey, anymodality that we use, everything
that we do is to bring furtherawareness as to one, why we did
the things that we did, whywe're doing the things that
(38:46):
we're doing, and the awarenessof choice that we can do
something different in thefuture, in 2020, i didn't feel
like I had a lot of choices.
I did, but I wasn't doingenough work.
I wasn't aware of enough thingsto see the choices that I had
in front of me.
I saw one choice.
Fortunately, i saw two, butthat one choice was becoming
(39:12):
more and more prevalent.
So we see that every day Peoplethat feel like they only have
one choice anymore Andunfortunately, that suicide
greatly affects men more thanwomen, and especially men that
are between the ages of about 30and 50.
(39:35):
So I feel very responsible andvery motivated to get in front
of as many men as possible andmake sure that they are aware of
the choices that they have.
The simple choice that you canbe sad, that that's okay.
That doesn't mean you fail.
That doesn't mean that you'reweak.
(39:55):
That doesn't mean that it's allover.
That doesn't mean that womenaren't going to desire you
anymore, that doesn't mean yourchildren aren't going to respect
you anymore.
All of these things arethoughts that men have had about
being sad.
So when they realize that it'sokay to be sad and they are
everything changes.
So that, to me, is the endresult A further and higher
(40:21):
state of awareness and from that, the ability to make more
choices and experience moregrowth.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
I feel like a lot of people don't understand what
more awareness actually means.
In other words, you say thatand then they go okay, well, i
know more, but so what?
Right?
Like, what does that actuallymean?
And I know that as I've grownin my own awareness.
It feels like there's lots ofchoices, not just one or two.
So I'm curious if you couldpaint a picture of what
(40:55):
awareness actually looks like insomeone's life.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
That is an excellent proposal.
The way that we are raised aspeople and again I'm
generalizing here, right, butthe amount of men that I've
talked to over the past threeand a half years the way that
(41:25):
men are raised is you need to bestrong, and strong means you
don't show emotion, you justdon't okay.
And if you do, you are weak.
Plain and simple,straightforward.
Whether we say it like that ornot, that is what we're taught
(41:48):
From a very young age.
The kid that's playing t-balland falls down and mom said oh,
don't cry.
Why the hell not, right?
But that's what we're tolddon't cry.
The dad that said oh, just rubsome dirt on it, right?
The coach is like oh yeah, youcut your knee open, we're gonna
(42:11):
celebrate the fact that you'rebleeding, walk it off.
We're conditioned from likeinfants to not cry, to not feel,
to be strong.
This is just one example, right?
So if you grow up with that andanytime you feel any of those
(42:32):
things, rather than expressingit, rather than working through
it, rather than saying why, am Isad, right.
Let me tell a story.
So I'm gonna do a tangent on atangent.
I'm nine years old.
I'm in the store with my dad.
I still a candy bar.
Okay, this may or may not bebased on true events.
(42:57):
The store catches me stealing acandy bar.
So what happens after that?
What is the fallout?
Well, the store's upset, right,because they were stolen from
Makes sense.
I need to make things rightwith the store.
My dad is upset because his sonstole and generally most men
(43:22):
respond to something like thatwith frustration and anger.
Okay, my mom is sad because nowher son is this hardened
criminal and is looking at alife of crime going forward.
And most people.
God is also upset and sad,right, because you've broken one
(43:44):
of God's laws to not steal.
So what does this young boy do?
He needs to make the store feelbetter.
He needs to make dad feelbetter.
He needs to make mom feelbetter.
He needs to make God feelbetter.
Nobody ever asks him why hestole the candy bar.
(44:04):
What awareness is he going tohave from that going forward?
He's not going to think aboutwhy I do the things that I do.
He's going to learn to not getcaught because that's awful,
right.
Or if I do get caught, i betterbe really good at managing that
(44:26):
situation.
So now, that is what the boysawareness is.
If we teach and we learn, we say, hey, what was going on there?
What was going on for you thatyou stole that?
What's going on with yourschool?
What's going on with yourpersonal life, right?
(44:46):
And we're talking about thesethings, and this young man
starts to be able to associatethe choices he's making with the
boys.
He's going to associate thechoices he's making with the
things he's feeling, with thethings that he's experiencing in
life.
He now has awareness.
He's now going to makedifferent choices.
(45:06):
Right, repeat that process inenough different things over
time, and we're going to juststart to churn out one
particular type of man, right?
So, again going back, the samething happens with our emotions.
If it's pride or anger, you'regood.
I've been taught by societythat I can express those.
(45:28):
But anger, again, not too much.
Only, unlike the cool ways thatmovies show anger, everything
else you oppress.
You're not going to see thatyou have a choice to do anything
else with any of your emotions.
Right, if we teach men that itis okay to feel sad, it is okay
(45:54):
to feel silly, playful, thatit's okay to be afraid, that
it's okay to be angry all ofthese things like really angry
when you're ugly crying andthrowing a fit, stomping your
arms on the ground, right.
Then that young man starts tounderstand why he's feeling
(46:19):
those things.
He gets to start exploring thatAnd now, the awareness of the
emotions that he has.
It's like being able to go fromseeing black and white to seeing
color TV.
Right, does black and white TV?
Yeah, you can get by with it,it's okay.
We did that for a lot of years,but then we had color TV.
(46:41):
Then what happened?
Technology improved And now wehave the awareness of this thing
called HD, and none of us hadthat even in our awareness.
We didn't know that was apossibility.
Then it happened, and now it'skind of hard to imagine life
without it And that will justcontinue to happen, right.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, but as you wake
(47:06):
up, you know the things you knowand you know the things that
you don't know.
But you don't know the thingsthat you don't know And that's a
whole lot.
That's like most of theuniverse.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Well, it gives me a follow-up question.
Please, why did the boy stealthe candy bar You?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
know, on all fairness to my father, i do think he
asked me, but my dad is about mysame size, which is very large,
and I could tell he was veryupset.
So I just was very intent ontelling him that that's not what
I did, why the boy stole thecandy bar.
(47:47):
I think the boy had a lot ofscarcity mindset even at a young
age And he was already startingto kind of hoard and set things
aside out of fear.
That's only something that Ifigured out last year, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
It's interesting.
What you're describing isessentially gentle parenting.
Gentle parenting is abouttrying to understand why
children do things, as opposedto just control their behavior
through your reaction.
So if you punish them when theydo things that you don't want
and then reward them when theydo what you do, the behavior
(48:36):
might be there, but the internalworld is going to be very
different, right?
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I've got four children And I consider myself
to be a very good dad And Iabsolutely recognize the way
that I did those exact thingsthat you were talking about when
they would.
I consider myself a good dadbecause I didn't necessarily
(49:02):
punish them when they did bad,but when they did good I would.
I would reward them, and whenthey felt discomfort, you know
what I did Hey, let's go getsome ice cream, let's go sit in
front of a TV and eat some icecream.
And I taught them to repress.
I've been so frustrated withmyself recognizing that I did
(49:26):
those things.
The best shift that I have madeas a parent is to get really,
really curious, anything thatthey do, whether I think it's
good or whether I think it's bad.
Hey, what's going on?
What was that about?
What are you feeling about that?
What are you feeling about life?
How can I support you in that?
(49:48):
Why are you upset?
Are you upset?
Why are you upset?
And just asking questions?
I don't have to do a whole heckof a lot.
I direct them back intothemselves And, shockingly, all
the answers are already there.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah, it's amazing how much awareness will answer
the question or solve theproblem in and of itself.
In other words, it sounds likeif your family had realized that
you had a scarcity mindset, youwere worried about not having
enough and they taught you howto get the things you wanted you
(50:30):
probably would have had tosteal them, right.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Absolutely, and I understand I get defensive of my
family when I tell this storyThe retrospect is 2020.
Sure, and thank goodness forthat, because that's how we
learn And my parents made lotsof mistakes And, great, i get to
(50:55):
learn from those And they getto learn from those, and I've
made a lot of mistakes inparenting And my willingness to
go back and look at those.
I get to learn from those aswell.
And, honestly, it's never toolate.
As much as we like to tellourselves it's too late for us
to change, it's not.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
I wanted to ask you about one piece of that story,
which is that I really liked thephrase God is upset.
We have to make God feel better, because I grew up in the
evangelical Christian world AndI'm very familiar with this sort
of strange relationship withGod that a lot of traditional
(51:34):
families teach And it soundslike a lot of the work that
you're doing.
I mean, the group's name iseven Sacred Sons, right, so it
sounds like there is anintersection between that and
spirituality And I'm curiouswhat spirituality looks like in
a group like that and what theysort of teach.
That might be different than acodependent relationship with
(51:57):
God, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Right, it's a good question.
Sacred Sons itself does notnecessarily have any dogma or
defined belief systems.
Absolutely, there is an impliedbelief in a higher power And
(52:20):
anybody is welcome to bringtheir understanding of that with
them or their disagreement ofthat with them.
Right, there are people therethat will call it God or
Heavenly Father or Source orUniverse or Mother God or
Pachamama or whatever it mightbe, and all of those people are
(52:46):
welcome with that.
I run something here locallycalled the Utah Men's Circle And
, being in Utah, there ispredominance of the LDS faith
And that's the way that I grewup And that, honestly, is still
very important to me.
Where I have started todifferentiate culturally is
(53:11):
similar to the Old Testamentversus the New Testament.
The Old Testament and the Bibleyou look in, god was pretty
angry, god was very vengeful.
You touch this thing, you'regoing to die.
There's just no ifs ands andbuts about it.
The New Testament, god becamemuch more loving, much more
(53:31):
understanding, much moreforgiving, and my belief in God,
my relationship with God, verymuch falls in line with Christ's
primary teachings, which was tolove God, to love your neighbor
, and the prerequisite to thatbeing love yourself.
And so that is as I reflect onyour question, what is shared
(54:01):
there at Sacred Sons?
there's an openness and awillingness to accept people in
their beliefs And there's aninvitation for people to look at
their beliefs and to make surethat those beliefs are actually
benefiting them And that they'rebenefiting their growth, if
they're benefiting theirawareness, if they're benefiting
(54:24):
those around them And notbenefiting as far as, like, i
want to do this thing and my Godsays that I can't, so that's
not benefiting me.
No, not like that.
But to say, you know, within myreligion, the belief is X And
that really runs contrary towhat I believe about this Y.
Let's talk and we get reallycurious.
(54:46):
And is there a resolution foryou in that?
Or is that something that youwould need to step away from,
but never, never mandated, neverpractically even brought up,
but just the invitation is there.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
If someone goes to a group like this, do they usually
have an intention or apreexisting thing that they know
they want to work on?
Or is it better to go sort ofopen ended and say I don't know
what, I don't know and we'llfind out?
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Both have happened.
What's interesting is there isa percentage of men that show up
because my wife has fed up, ormy mother or my family or
whoever it might be.
They're just done with me, andthis is kind of my last-ditch
(55:43):
effort And so those people showup really not knowing what to
expect and without a certainintention around it, other than
this is going to appease thosethat are in my life, other
people and I'm answering yourquestion over the evolution of
(56:06):
the past couple of years becauseI believe initially it was born
more from urgency and emergency.
And again going back to the gymanalogy, i was a personal
trainer for a number of yearsAnd oftentimes, who were the
clients that would talk to me?
They were the ones that hadjust had the heart attack, just
(56:29):
been diagnosed with diabetes.
After the problem, it was timeto address this stuff, and so
oftentimes that still happens,and at least once a week I'm
introduced to a man who thegambling addiction finally
caught up with him, or hefinally just had a mental
breakdown at work, or he wasdiagnosed with cancer, whatever
(56:53):
it might be.
And so now it's time to reallystart looking at my life.
That is the culture.
That is the number one culturalshift that I'm trying to affect
is to proactively startaddressing your masculine health
, the same way we need to startproactively addressing our
(57:14):
physical health.
The same way we need to startaddressing our emotional, mental
, sexual, financial, whatever itmight be.
In this country we are veryreactive.
You look at our healthcaresystem.
It is not designed to benefitthose that want to be proactive
with their health.
It is designed to put band-aidson things, quite literally.
So we have taken that andapplied that to a lot of
(57:37):
different aspects of our lifeAnd it's not working out well.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
So if someone's listening to this and they want
to be proactive so proactivethat they're not even going to
wait to go to one of theseevents or something like it they
want to just do something rightafter listening to this podcast
, what's something they could do?
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Reach out to me.
They could reach out to me, andI run weekly online group
coaching for men And we have abrotherhood that continues to
grow of men that are doing thisnow every week, and we have
different again, modalities,different things that we offer
(58:19):
for you to be able to start toexplore and gain further
awareness.
You could also, if you'relistening to this podcast, i'm
hoping that means you're willingto listen to some other ones.
Sacred Sons has a weeklypodcast where they're addressing
different components of this aswell.
There's some exploration there.
(58:42):
Do a Google search and see ifthere is a men's group or a
men's circle in your local area.
If you're not, you know, ableto find that personally.
Again, reach out to me.
I'm pretty well connectedacross at least the United
States where I can put you incontact with other men that are
doing that same work.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
How should one evaluate a men's group?
You know, if you go, how do youdetermine if it's right for you
or if it's a space that youshould be going to regularly?
Speaker 1 (59:15):
No question, and I have a bias here, but that bias
is based again, a proof ofconcept and what I've been
studying for a number of yearsThere are a couple of different
types of men's groups.
There's the men's group that isbased on, like military
ideology We are going to tearyou down, turn you into nothing
(59:37):
and then build you back up theway that we want you to be.
That, to me, is one of theworst things that you can do.
It is not going to help you.
It is.
It's going to feel really goodin the moment because you're
going to, adrenaline is going toget going and it's going to
kick in.
All this conditioning of, likeRocky music and every military
movie you've ever seen, and likeright, testosterone is going to
(59:57):
flow, but your level ofawareness I've not seen that be
affected the same way.
On the opposite end, there isthe men's groups that are the
male apologists, which you'reawful, i'm awful.
We're all pieces of crap ormurderers, rapists, we're serial
(01:00:17):
killers, and we just need totalk about how awful we are to
each other.
Also, not sustainable.
Do we need to understand whatwe individually have done in our
lives and what we as a genderhave done specifically here, but
really all over the world.
(01:00:37):
Yes, we do.
We need to understand that, andthere's a level of
accountability that comes withthat.
And just saying that you'regarbage and apologizing for
being garbage, all that that'snot going to result in anything
either, right?
So the middle ground being finda men's group.
(01:00:58):
That's real curious about you.
The men's groups that I run itis not Joe's group, look at Joe
do what Joe does, right?
Joe loves you, so I facilitateit.
I find the location, i set itup, i pay for it sometimes,
(01:01:19):
right?
The men's group that I dohere's free, for example.
But and then I'm just reallycurious about who you are, how
you're feeling and how I cansupport you in that.
If you find a men's group whereyou've got one person that's
telling you they have all theanswers, i haven't seen that as
a sustainable option either.
(01:01:39):
So you're really looking for agroup and you're really looking
for a circle where everybodythere is going to treat you as
an equal and really value whoyou are and what you're bringing
to the table as well, even whenyou can't see what you're
bringing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
It sounds like to come full circle.
You're looking for a group thatwill help increase your
authentic self, rather than justgive you a really well designed
mask that they've built for you.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Yeah, that's a great way to put it All of you is
welcome here.
That is one of the statementswe make in Sacred Sons.
Not all of you are welcome herealso, true, but all of you is
welcome here.
So bring all your parts.
Bring the parts that you thinkare ugly.
Bring the parts that you'reashamed of.
Bring the parts you don't tellpeople about, because, come to
(01:02:35):
find out, you're not the onlyone.
You're not the only one that'sbeen struggling with those.
You're not the only one that'sbeen told they're bad.
You're not the only one thatwants to be a better version of
yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
And there is catharsis and there's healing
just in knowing that there's aman that feels what you feel and
that cares that you're feelingit That made a connection for me
, because in the past when I'veseen men's groups, i think I've
seen a lot of the other twotypes that you describe, of a
(01:03:12):
sort of disciplinarian orself-abasement of some kind, and
because of that I've had sortof a mixed feeling about them,
because some aspects are likethe ones that you've been
describing in this conversationand then some are like those
other aspects that you mentionedearlier And I like the model of
(01:03:36):
do these people care about myfeelings as like a real, just
simple question to know whetheror not the group might be one.
We're staying in.
Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Certainly There's space for that.
Again, we've seen this oftentimes in capitalism, where you
become a number and you becomepart of a bottom line.
Right, should people becompensated for the gifts and
talents that they have?
Absolutely, and are you so muchmore than the dollars that you
contribute to that?
(01:04:08):
Yes, you are.
Find someone that understandsboth of those things.
I think that's a great way toput that.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
It's making some connections for other things for
me, because I've also been inprofessional activists, all
sorts of other differentenvironments where I could tell
people didn't care about myfeelings.
They saw that I was successfulin some way and that that
success might lead to somethingfor them, or they saw an
opportunity that I could helpthem with.
(01:04:38):
And I'm wondering how youhandle those environments, those
environments where you're notfree to bring your full self,
especially after you've you knowit's another challenge of how
you get a taste of spaces whereit is okay to be yourself, you
know, being around people whereit's not okay, how is it that
you handle that And go ahead?
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
So me personally, i've become much more
comfortable stepping away fromthose spaces.
I feel like I spent a lot of mylife fighting for my worth and
trying to convince others of myworth, and that's exhausting,
(01:05:27):
right.
So, as I understand my worthand I accept that for myself,
i'm not really interested inconvincing anybody else of that.
Now there are a lot of peoplewho will say that, and they say
it with a certain level of sassIt's like I'm not going to prove
myself to anybody or anythinglike that And there's a
(01:05:49):
currently still a chip on theshoulder around that right Where
there's, there's some room thatprobably needs to be addressed
there where you didn't feelvalued the way that you needed
to feel, and so it doesn't needto be a big fit.
It doesn't need to be a youknow I'm leaving and I'm
quitting and you don't value meand I value.
No, you just.
You simply go where you arevalued, you go where your
(01:06:12):
desired, you go where you'rewanted and you're very
comfortable knowing that there'ssomewhere for that.
If it's not where you're at,it's going to be somewhere that
has to come from inside first,right.
That, to me, is if there's, ifthere's, any ideology or any of
the things that I I teach that Ibelieve very strongly.
(01:06:36):
It is recognizing how much of mylife I live from the outside,
in, where I would wake up in themorning and I would say I hope
my partner is nice to me, i hopemy boss is nice to me, i hope
the weather is good, i hope theeconomy is good, i hope the
government does the things thatI wanted to do, and if everybody
else obeys and behavesthemselves, then I have a chance
(01:06:59):
in hell of maybe being happyand feeling valued.
That is a losing battle, but Idid that for a long time and you
spend most of your time againmanaging everybody else's
expectations, managing everybodyelse's emotions.
When you make the switch andsay what do I want to create
(01:07:19):
today?
How do I feel about me?
I value me And I want to createsomething good and beautiful
beautiful driven from a place oflove versus that other thing
which is from fear.
Well, now it doesn't matterwhat the economy is doing and it
doesn't matter what my boss isdoing and it doesn't matter what
my partner is doing.
I am in command of how I showup in the world.
(01:07:42):
I'm not in command of any ofthem and I don't have to be, but
now I get to value me and I getto know what I'm about.
I get to know my worth and Ioperate from that place in a
much more effortless way.
Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
It feels a lot better .
Yeah, control is a losing game.
Well, is there anything thatyou want to talk about that we
didn't talk about?
Anything?
you wish I'd asked you that Ididn't, or that we wanted to get
to you, that we just sort ofskipped over?
Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
That first event that I did with Sacred Sons.
As I stood there kind ofastounded and not sure exactly
what it was I experienced, and Iwas surrounded by this group of
40 men, my first thought was Idon't know how to take this home
to my own family, to my owncommunity, and what I have done
(01:08:49):
over the past three years, whatI've been learning, two things.
The first, to be best describedin a quote by St Francis of
Assisi, lived like a thousandyears ago and was talking about
the church.
But he said preach the gospelat all times.
When necessary, use words.
(01:09:10):
And I believe that is true toanything that we are passionate
about.
That, as we embody it as we are, simply go about being it.
That is the best form ofpreaching there can be.
And so my mission, my goal, isto be embodying this and to
(01:09:32):
really be about the work, asmuch as I love to talk about it,
more importantly it is to beabout it.
And then, secondly, i wasunaware of anybody here locally
where I lived, that was doingthis type of stuff, and I've
been to enough of those salesretreats and Tony Robbins and so
(01:09:54):
many of those other type ofthings that I knew if I didn't
make some changes, nothing wasgoing to change.
And so I did.
I started a local Utah men'scircle And the first time nobody
showed up.
The second time nobody showedup.
But it was important to me so Ikept going And I've since
(01:10:16):
created this online group calledthe Algeez Guard that I run to
be another offering for men andto have another place that man
can go to do this work.
So if this is something you feelcalled to, know that you're not
alone, know that you're notalone, know that there are
people that truly care about you, not because of the money
(01:10:39):
you're going to provide them.
It's because you're you thatyou have value and that there
are resources here to help you,to support you, and not just
what I'm providing but with somany others are doing in so many
beautiful ways.
You have to give yourselfpermission to value yourself
enough to be willing to bring itinto your life, and ultimately
(01:11:03):
that is affected.
Every other aspect of my life,the way that I show up in my own
family, the way that I show upin my career, the way that I
show up in my religion, the waythat I show up for my physical
health, everything It has had aprofound and beautiful effect
for which I will forever begrateful.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Joe, i can say, having met you in person which
is a lot of my guests I've onlycommunicated with like this that
I do feel like you reallyembody a lot of the values that
you've talked about here, Andthat that was what initially
made me want to talk with you inthis format was seeing you in
person and noticing the energywith which you carry yourself.
(01:11:45):
So thank you for doing that.
Thank you, brandon.
Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
I accept that and I am grateful for that.
With with the caveat, and maybeit, maybe it doesn't need to be
said, but I'm going to say itanyway.
This will continue to be a workin progress for me, like it is
everybody else.
I think the the detriment tosocial media and some of the
things we see is that assumptionand that mask that Joe must
(01:12:16):
have it all together.
I don't.
I'm working hard and I continueto learn and I continue to
evolve And I think it'simportant for leaders to speak
to those things.
I think it's important to be aleader and to speak to the fact
that you're not perfect, but youcan still be a leader.
As a matter of fact, you needto be.
So.
(01:12:37):
Thank you, brandon.
Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
Thank you.
If people want to connect withyou, join a men's group or join
your online group, where shouldthey do that?
Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
My Instagram page is my name at Joe Spearden.
We can put that in the notesbecause it's kind of a spell.
And then the online stuff thatI run is called the Algeez Guard
also kind of hard to spell, butthat can be there Algeez Guard
dot com, if you wanted to signup for that weekly men's group
that I run online primarilyonline.
So those will be the two bestmethods, cool.
Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Well, thank you for talking with me today.
Thank you, thank you forlistening to the Brandon Marata
show.
If you like this episode,please subscribe and leave a
positive review.
On whatever platform you listento podcasts on, if you really
like this show, please become asupporter of the show.
Go to brendanmaratacom slashshow and become a monthly paying
member.
Supporters get access tospecial bonus videos and videos
that you can find on the website.
(01:13:30):
If you're interested in gettinga new podcast, please subscribe
to the channel.
If you're interested in gettinga new podcast, please subscribe
to the channel And become amonthly paying member.
Supporters get access tospecial bonus content and
episodes only available to them.
So become a supporter atbrendanmaratacom slash show.
Thank you again for listeningto this episode and I will talk
to you all later.
All of you is welcome here.
So bring all your parts.
Bring the parts that you thinkare ugly.
Bring the parts that you'reashamed of.
Bring the parts you don't tellpeople about, because, come to
find out, you're not the onlyone.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
You're listening to the Brendan Murata Show.
In this episode I talked to JoeSpeardin about sacred sons and
men circles.
Joe is one of the few guestsI've actually met in person.
We met on a self-developmentretreat and I was incredibly
struck by his energy and wantedto interview him on this podcast
.
In this episode we talk about awhole range of topics,
(00:36):
everything from getting more intouch with your emotions,
removing the various masks thatmen wear.
We talk about larger socialtopics like capitalism and
religion.
We talk about how peacefulparenting uniquely benefits men
all sorts of different things.
So if you are someone who isinterested in getting in touch
with your authentic self andincreasing your awareness in
(00:58):
understanding men, or areyourself a man who wants to
better understand yourself,listen to this episode now.
So, without further ado, hereis Joe.
What did bring you into men'swork?
Let's start there.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
As it does for many men kind of the cliched midlife
crisis back in 2020, which Iknow is crisis time for many
people ironically was the year Iwas turning 40 years old and
found myself in that spot that alot of men are at, where I've
(01:36):
done the family thing, i havethe family, i have the wife and
the kids and the home and thecareer and all that stuff and
realized that I didn't feelfulfilled, i didn't feel
complete and felt a lot of guiltaround.
That Felt a lot of panic,anxiety, that type of stuff, and
(01:59):
I didn't know what to do And,being a man, i'd been
conditioned most of my life tojust kind of like stuff it down,
you know, and not talk about it, just deal with it.
If you ignore it long enough,it's going to go away, and that
(02:19):
became impossible I guess is oneway to put it.
I got to a point where theprospect of not being here
actually became viable, and thatwasn't something I'd ever
considered before in my life.
So when that happened, itreally scared me in a way that I
(02:42):
hadn't been scared before, andI started to kind of search
force managers And fortunately,one of the answers that I was
introduced to was Sacred Sons,which is an organization.
They're all over the globe Andthey're more retreat based,
(03:04):
right, and if you look at theirdemographic, if you look at
their imagery, their marketingme being this white, middle-aged
, middle-class suburban daddidn't really feel like I fit.
But I didn't know what else todo, and so I signed up for one
of their events and drove toSouthern California And I mean,
(03:31):
it's a whole story in and ofitself, but what happened there
is, i finally felt like I couldtalk about what was real, and I
was given a space to do thatwith other men.
And not only was I allowed todo that, i wasn't mocked for it,
i wasn't judged as weak orinferior, and what shocked me
(03:53):
the most is I had a whole bunchof other men saying, yeah, me
too.
And that was amazing, becauseit had never really even
occurred to me that other menwere feeling some of these same
things Because, again, we don'ttalk about it.
So that was the first step, wasthat event, and then just the
steps that followed from there.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So what specifically was it that you were feeling?
Because it sounds like thesacred sons of me that gave you
a space to express that.
But what originally was that?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
You know, I can't say that it was just one thing.
The thing is is that I wasfeeling, And I think I just got
to a point in my life where Icouldn't repress that any longer
And I was like repress that anylonger.
I was pretty open to feelingall the good stuff.
I'd feel joy, I'd feelhappiness, I'd feel pride in my
(04:52):
children or in the work that Idid, I would feel excitement as
I was building something.
But when fear came up, whenanxiety came up, when sadness
came up, when depression came up, I didn't know what to do with
that.
So I didn't do anything with it, I ignored it, I repressed it
(05:13):
And it just got to that pointwhere it was all coming up and I
couldn't stop feeling it.
And so it was all of thoseemotions, all of the emotions
that I had grown up labeling asbad.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So I was on a podcast of another woman who described
feeling as an aspect of thefeminine, and I pushed back a
little bit on that when I heardthat because I feel like that's
very much a culturalconstruction.
So I'm curious from yourperspective.
It sounds like for you, feelingbecame much safer in the
(05:50):
company of men, and so I'mcurious from your perspective
how those emotions andexpressing those emotions fits
in with the masculine.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, i love that.
How it fits in with themasculine is even within men we
have masculinity and femininity,right, energies, traits,
whatever you'd like to call that.
I don't believe that emotion orfeeling is necessarily feminine
.
The level of attunement and thelevel of engagement with those
(06:26):
emotions, i think the feminineis more, not susceptible, but
just more in alignment.
In alignment with with those.
And if you look at the way we'veevolved, that would make sense,
as they were more thannurturers, the caretakers, the
caregivers, as they had childrenthat were feeling things, they
(06:48):
needed to be more attuned tothose emotions.
They needed to be able torecognize those.
Man evolved doing differentthings and we weren't we weren't
as attuned.
So what it's done for me inbeing able to feel my emotions,
as far as my masculinity goes,is it's allowed me to step into
(07:12):
it more fully And it's allowedme to be more authentic in what
that is.
A lot of masculinity that weidentify as toxic masculinity is
really, i think, a mask, andthat mask is generally fear.
But when we're empowered to sayI'm afraid, then the mask comes
(07:34):
off And what comes through isis true, authentic masculinity,
if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
It does Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, i would say the same experience with it or I
would say this, something verysimilar.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
The thing that's coming to mind, though, is that
I think you can tell a lot abouta person by what mask they
choose to wear, or what theythink the safe face to put
forward is, and so I'm curiouswhat masks do you see men
wearing?
And then, what mask did you,did you see yourself wearing?
Because I know that very oftenin my own life, i've made the
(08:15):
mistake of picking the wrongmask, so to speak.
In other words, i thought I wasdoing something that was safe,
but it was actually much lesssafe than actually just being my
full, authentic self.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Absolutely, And that's the irony, right Is we
will wear masks, thinking thatthat is going to make others
feel safer, that that is goingto help others be more willing
to connect to us, But it doesthe exact opposite.
The mask that I see the mostand I appreciate you saying the
mask that I saw as in past tense, that I wore I still struggle,
(08:48):
right, That's still somethingthat I have to be aware of every
day And I still have to workwith every day The primary mask
is the mask of having it alltogether, of having everything
figured out, whether that'saround my career, whether that's
around fatherhood, whetherthat's around the economy or any
(09:09):
aspect of my life, my physicalhealth, all of these things
right, Even my office, right.
You can see behind me it lookspretty nice and organized, But
if you see in front of me it'snot quite as organized.
That's a mask And that mask isthe tray that I've got it all
together right, i will betotally transparent.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
This is a film set.
This is right.
I don't have my officesnormally not lit like this.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
So and we do that to portray certain things, And I
don't I don't believe that thesame thing is.
Authenticity Does not mean youowe everybody every aspect of
your life right, And so the waythat I talk to my grandmother is
different than the way that Italk to my 12-year-old son and
the things that we talk about.
(09:55):
Am I less authentic with onethan the other?
No, There's just differentaspects of myself that I'm
revealing.
The mask is when I feel like,no matter who I'm talking to, I
need to be somebody differentthan who I am for them, And that
is the work.
But I see that happening veryoften.
(10:16):
Some of the other masks that alot of men like to wear
specifically are wealth or thejoker.
You know the guy that just hehas a joke anytime anything
comes up that is uncomfortableAnd he just likes to laugh and
make other people laugh becausethat's better than having to cry
.
Those are probably the biggestones that I'm seeing with men in
(10:42):
this day and age.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
You mentioned Sacred Sons.
When you go to a group likethat because as I understand it
that's a men's retreat group ora men's circle What is it that
you're able to do there thatyou're not able to do in the
regular world?
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Beautiful question.
It's not so much about abilityas it is focus.
When you go to that event, thefocus is authentic connection to
your own heart and to other men.
When you are out in the world,the real world, as it were that
(11:22):
isn't everybody's primary focus,and so what I've tried to do
and what my goal has been sincethat very first event, is I'm
now in my community trying tocreate a life.
you don't need to retreat from,a life that you can do that
here and now.
And so that's creating, youknow, men's circles here locally
(11:45):
, creating a culture herelocally.
that's taking those things thatI've learned at Sacred Sons and
introducing them.
But yeah, outside of that, isthere a special energy that
comes with that?
Absolutely, because men areshowing up in that intentional
space of I need this, i wantthis, i'm ready for this, and
(12:09):
the discomfort of change is nowfinally less than discomfort of
staying the same and they'reready to make that switch.
But I think that's an excellentquestion because there's
actually a danger in that.
I love Sacred Sons, iparticipate in multiple events a
year And I think if you askSacred Sons what they're going
(12:31):
to look like in 10 years, itwon't be what they're doing now,
because, as this grows at anexponential rate, the retreat
space is no longer about that,because that's everywhere.
Now it's about what are bestpractices.
Now it's about leadership.
Now it's about exploration andgrowth together, rather than
(12:54):
introduction.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Moving from a retreat to an advance, so to speak.
Yeah, absolutely So.
That was actually a questionthat I was going to ask is what
that sort of practice looks likein the real world, so to speak,
or in an intentional community,because I think that's
something a lot of people want.
I know I've gone to retreats orto conferences or things where
(13:21):
there's a group of peoplegetting together with a very
intentional purpose or sharedvision or mission, and very
often what happens is there's acontainer and there's a great
experience, and then everybodyleaves and that's it, like it's
over.
You don't see them again, andso I'm wondering what that looks
like in an ongoing practice ofsome kind, or how that would be
(13:46):
created in the first place.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Right, great, great question, and that's continued
to be an evolution for me.
But two examples that I'll give.
The first is anybody that'sever been through any kind of
rehabilitation from an addiction?
right, rehabilitation centerscan be amazing And the majority
(14:09):
of the time people will returnto their addiction.
Did the rehabilitation centernot teach something that they
should have?
or they not given the rightskills and ability?
Of course they were, but theyhave to return to their family
and they have to return to thepeople that don't also share
those skills, that also don'tshare those mindsets and those
(14:30):
practices that are happening.
So what that looks like, firstand foremost, is there are other
people there doing the samething day to day.
Even if you're not doing ittogether, you're just all doing
it.
So the analogy that I'll givehere is a gym, right, physical
(14:51):
health.
100 years ago, gyms would havebeen unthinkable, right, like,
why would we need a gym?
We just go and work.
But then a society evolved andchanged and we did more desk
jobs and some of this stuff.
Life got more comfortable.
We found it necessary to createa space to go simulate some of
the things we used to have to do, and that's very much what
(15:15):
men's work is right now is as wehave moved away from each other
as men and become more isolatedand not talk to each other, not
connecting, not knowing how tobe vulnerable with each other.
We're creating regular placesthat you can go and get a
workout in your masculine healthSo you can go to a circle
(15:38):
that's happening once a weeksomewhere and just have an
opportunity to get together withmen and talk and get together
and talk about real life and gettogether to meditate or drop in
for a few minutes and say Iwonder how I am feeling, what is
present for me, because Ihaven't thought about that in 35
years.
I should probably take a secondand consider that Having those
(16:02):
spaces, having those times toget together and do things with
other men Outside of work whichthe majority of the places that
men connect with other men iswork, sometimes sports or like a
bar All pretty superficial andnot going to help you connect
(16:26):
further into your own heart.
So, if that answers yourquestion, that's part of what
I'm trying to do is I'm creatingdifferent modalities for men to
join together and get a goodworkout for their masculine
health.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So using this gym analogy, what is the muscle that
you're working out in a grouplike this?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Oh damn that's a good question Your heart, Just plain
and simple.
In the world that we live inyou look at any movie men are
generally allowed to show aboutthree emotions We're allowed to
(17:11):
show anger, We're allowed toshow pride And, to a certain
level, we're able to show somehappiness.
But even guys that are toohappy, everybody like what's up
with that guy, Like that there'ssomething off with somebody if
they're just, if they're toohappy.
So being able to open yourheart and let the walls down
(17:33):
around it and let it heal andlet it shine out is what we're
working, And we find lots of funways to do that.
That wouldn't necessarily youwouldn't necessarily think is
your heart.
Most people wouldn't think thatgetting punched in your face is
(17:54):
going to help you connect intoyour heart, But it does.
For example, that's that's oneof the things that we do is
we'll have some we call itconscious combat as one of our
modalities.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
So hold on.
What is conscious combatinvolved?
You got to break that one down.
I'm curious now.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
So Fight Club had it like 60 percent right, 50 to 60
percent right, the whole blowingup buildings, like creating.
That part I'm not in favor of.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But I'm out now.
You had me go in there for asecond.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Most men, their association with aggression is
repression.
As young boys, you know, stopfighting, stop rough housing,
stop doing that.
You're going to make yoursister cry, you're going to make
your brother cry, you're goingto hurt yourself, right.
And then if you did experienceit, it was generally in the form
of some kind of abuse, and thenit's the same thing.
(18:55):
Don't talk to anybody aboutthis, you're fine, You're
blowing this out of proportionor whatever it is.
Aggression is a very naturalmasculine trait and
characteristic and one that'shonestly necessary to our not
only our survival but ourthriving in society.
(19:17):
And so when you create a spacethat is safe for men to get in
together, put on some gloves Tolook each other in the eyes and
see this man as your brother,and meet him in that space and
say this is my intention, andyou get to tell your story, and
(19:39):
he gets to hear your story.
He gets to hear what's going tobe hardest for you.
You're going to hear what youwant to experience.
And then you step into thatspace and you meet your brother
there and you box and you getpunched in the face.
And if you grew up gettingpunched in the face, there are
some demons to face there, rightIf you grew up being told that
(20:02):
you were going to hurt somebody,if you expressed any kind of
rough house in your play,something's going to come up
there.
And so, more often than youwould believe, after a two
minute round, you're tired butyou're crying too.
You're crying because youfinally got to this place, to
where you could release theshame, the guilt, the
(20:25):
conditioning, the resentment,whatever it might be around that
, and in that you findliberation.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
So that's really interesting to me.
It sounds like you'reseparating the aggression from
the animosity, because for mostpeople, the only time they punch
someone in the face is if theyreally don't like that person.
And yet there might be afeeling or an aspect of a person
that wants to express itselfthat way And you're sort of
(20:54):
creating a safe container forthat.
Is that an accurateunderstanding?
Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
The society that we're in right now because we
don't have healthy and safeoutlets for a lot of that.
When does it happen?
It happens when you're drunkand therefore some of your
inhibitions have been lowered orlessened.
You're not able to be incommand of yourself quite at the
same level and something snaps,and it generally is not just
(21:23):
aggressive but violent anddestructive, and with animosity,
with contention, and so thoseare the narratives that we have
around that.
But when you create a place forthat to be healthy, where we
don't just box, you can wrestle,you can arm wrestle, you can
play, you know, whatever itmight be, there's a healthy
(21:44):
place for that to be expressed.
Then you're at the bar andsomebody bumps up against you.
There's not 10 layers of thingsboiling down underneath that,
just somebody bumped you, youknow.
So I think in this expression alot of the violent and
contentious experiences that wehave and see with confrontation
(22:09):
subside the go away.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You're reminding me.
I've heard it said thatconflict can be good and
actually bring people closertogether if you work it out.
In other words, if you have adisagreement with someone and
you have a fight with them, butat the end of the fight there's
some resolution, the two peopleare closer than they were at the
beginning.
And, yeah, it strikes me that alot of modern culture, because
(22:39):
there are mixed gendered spaceseverywhere.
Women process that conflictdifferently and so, one, the
conflict doesn't often getresolved.
And two, there's oftendifferent ideas about resolution
of the conflict.
And so it strikes me that this,this version of conflict
resolution, so to speak, is veryintentional in that, like
(23:02):
there's a clear resolution to it, there's an end, whereas the
other thing that happens ifthere's violence in the real
world, so to speak, is that theresolution is usually one person
dies or someone gets reallyseriously hurt and and it isn't
resolved in the terms of, youknow, there's a clear agreement
that it's going to end.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Right, you know, in in masculinity, in the form of
masculinity that I've come toidentify with, there are four
masculine archetypes, and one ofthose archetypes is the warrior
.
The warrior meant something2000 years ago that would not
fit in today's society.
(23:46):
It just doesn't right.
And so when we talk aboutwarrior energy, aggression is
going to be part of that.
Now I will say what we're doingin this combat.
Very rarely do the two guys inthe ring together have any kind
of an issue with each other atall.
Sure, generally what they'reresolving is an issue with dad
(24:10):
from 30 years ago, right, or anissue with brother or whatever
that might be.
But yes, in conflict there is ahealthy way to express
aggression and expressfrustration, and my experience
has generally been that's with amediator, that's with somebody
that can be there impartially,that has love for both of the
(24:33):
people there.
So, again, this requires peopleto gather and be together to
have that happen, and we have awhole process for that, for
conflict resolution as well,that we experienced.
But I would very much agree,like as we learn these skills
and as we get rid of a lot ofthe repressed emotion not get
(24:53):
rid of, but express a lot of therepressed emotion, conflict
resolution becomes much easier,much easier.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
You know, that's something I've struggled with in
the spaces that I often work inis that there's a separation
between the professional workand the personal development,
spiritual work.
And I find that, you know, Ioften get along very well with
people who do self developmentwork of some kind, but those
(25:24):
aren't always the people I'mencountering when I'm working
professionally or trying to hiresomeone or trying to get
someone to hire me, And so I'mwondering if there's a way that
you can bring that into you knowthe quote, unquote, real world
and include that in somebody,Because I would love to work
with people who are doing thiskind of work or who are
(25:47):
committed to that kind ofconflict resolution.
But you know, the overlap isn'talways there.
So I'm curious how you findthat or create that.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So I'm part of an organization called Embodied
Exec and that's part of whatwe're doing.
We're still relatively smalland that process is another one
of those cultural shifts that isgoing to take some time to
change.
But really what needs to happenis that changes from the top
down, and so when you can findthe CEOs, the presidents, the
(26:23):
owners you know whoever it isthat can affect change in a
company And they can introduceworkers, they can introduce
people into an environment.
they can talk to their HR teamand send them for training.
They can talk to their salesteam and send them for training
or bring somebody into theirplace of employment.
(26:46):
Our whole mission there isprofit through purpose, which
necessitates that you know yourpurpose right, rather than
profit over purpose, which isunfortunately generally what we
see in the world.
So, absolutely, i feel you.
This is very needed And it isvery much mocked by most of the
(27:07):
people in those spaces as hippie, woo-woo kind of weak mindset,
and that's just what I thinkcapitalism has evolved into up
to this point.
It doesn't need to be oneagainst the other, it just needs
to be integrated into it.
So I completely agree and Ibelieve it's just taking time.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I'm curious how you would respond to the people who
have that objection, that theysay oh, this is, you know, weak
woo-woo, all those things thatyou mentioned.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Right, you know we're seeing it in little places,
here and there, we're seeing atleast people starting to
understand the value of some ofthis stuff, and it could be
something as simple as like hey,we're gonna give you a ping
pong table and video games andsnacks.
Now, that's like the.
(28:06):
It's the most basic of steps,but it's I'm going to recognize
that you're a human being andthat you need to be treated as
such, which means you need to beable to rest and relax and have
fun once in a while.
Right, that was a step in theright direction.
Was it placating?
maybe a little bit, right, butsteps like that is what needs to
(28:29):
happen.
And as more of those stepshappen, you see the proof of
concept behind it, and I've beendoing this long enough.
Now for myself that I also am areal estate agent.
I've also owned other companiesand you know, pursuing other
things, that I've put this intopractice and I do a lot of
(28:50):
public speaking at differentsales teams and you know local
companies here in Utah to talkabout these exact things.
You know we have so many CEOs,so many millionaires that are
absolutely miserable And,unfortunately, we just needed
enough time to show that moneywas not going to get you all the
happiness and fulfillment thatyou wanted in life.
(29:12):
So there are more and morepeople getting the lack of a
proof of concept over here withmaking all the money and more
people with the proof of conceptof, hey, maybe I'm making a
little less, but I actually lovemyself and my employees love
their lives and want to stay.
You know the way you sell it.
You talk about employeeretention, you talk about
(29:34):
workplace environment.
You talk about productivityincrease.
You know that type of stuff,but what really happens is you
just like it's better becauseyou learn that work life,
integration and harmony.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I appreciate what you said about capitalism and
profit over purpose, because alot of the ideas that we have
around masculinity came about asa result of industrialization.
If you read, for example, thewritings of the medieval knights
or King Arthur and his men,there's a lot of stories of men
openly weeping at various thingsthat happen.
(30:14):
And it's during the industrialrevolution that there's a shift
in attitudes where factoryowners begin to see that as a
problem or as a waste of time,because if you are essentially
turning people into tools, intomachines that just have to screw
one widget in, then you don'tneed things like emotion, and so
(30:36):
then emotion becomes a quote,unquote non-masculine trait,
whereas the work that we do now,or that most people do now,
does require them to do morethan just turn one bolt in, and
it actually the emotions aperson has do impact it in some
way.
So I think there's maybe also ashift in people and people's
(30:59):
attitudes towards this, becausethere's been a shift in what's
required of men and what work isactually useful, and so I would
be curious if there's anydifference in who accepts it,
which groups you see as beingmost likely and most willing to
accept this site type of stuffand which are most resistant to
(31:20):
it.
I would be curious to know whatsort of response you've gotten
from different groups.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, let me start by saying this In that warrior
archetype, in each archetype,there are polarizations.
There's an active and a passivepolarization.
The warrior archetype, theactive polarization, is the
sadist right.
And that was that boss that waslike you will do this, stop
(31:49):
crying, i don't care.
Right.
He's driven by fear.
He wants his productivity to goup, right.
And we recognize themisalignment on that side.
And, adaptive beings as we are,on the other side of that is
the masochist.
And really what we see so oftenwith men is really doubling
(32:11):
down on that.
If I'm not suffering, i mustnot be doing enough.
If I'm not miserable, somethingmust be wrong.
And so it started, maybe overhere, with the sadist telling us
that.
And then we bought it and nowwe're down for it.
Right, we should be suffering,that's right, and we idealize it
(32:34):
.
Growing up in my own family Andit's not just my family, but in
my own family, look how hardthat works.
That's miserable, that is tired, he's exhausted, he hates his
job.
Be so grateful, right, love himmore.
And we celebrate themisalignment And I know I've
(32:55):
fallen into that myself manytimes.
So in that awareness of thosepolarizations and then coming
back into alignment, werecognize again the need for
integration of those things.
So to answer your firstquestion, who do I see buying
(33:18):
into it?
those that can afford to.
If somebody is working foranother company and they have a
nine to five job and it's quitestrict and they have protocols
and they have quotas and there'snot room in the budget for them
to go to retreat if there's nottime for them to get away and
do these other things, at leastin the story they're telling
(33:41):
themselves they're not pursuingit.
Those that are entrepreneurs,those that own companies, those
that have maybe reached acertain level of success in
their own lives, that now maybetheir sales position is a little
more relaxed, they're seekingthat stuff out because they're
recognizing the damage they'vedone to themselves by getting to
(34:05):
that point.
So those are the differences,probably in the groups that I
don't even think it's a matterof who's willing.
It's just a matter of whothinks they can.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
It's really interesting.
a lot of the stuff that you'retalking about feels to me like
human work, even though you'recalling it work around
masculinity.
it's just that men have beenharmed or uniquely impacted by
systems in certain ways, and sothe healing there is different
(34:39):
for them than someone else who'sbeen in a different system or
who had different culturalprogramming.
Because it's does that mean isthat fair to say?
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Absolutely it is And that's I think that's an
important thing to say as wellThere's no exclusivity in the
suffering of the masculine andmen to really anybody else.
That is the group that Iidentify with, that is the group
that resonates with me and thatI feel called to serve, and so
(35:12):
there are modalities, there aremethods, there are effective
things that can be done to helpthat group, and that group does
have a large level of influencein the world.
So, as that group is affectedin these positive ways, my
intention is that that will moveout into other groups as well,
(35:34):
and that's important.
And there are other people thatare pursuing that, and I can go
into beautiful women's workthat I'm seeing happen and work
that is done really without afocus on masculine, feminine
energies or gender at all, aswell, but that's more where I'm
focused.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Well, is there a part of this that is uniquely
masculine and, if so, what?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
The experience that men have been having the past
hundred years is different thanthe experience that women have
been having for the past hundredyears.
So the way that men have beenraised, the way that men have
been conditioned, the thingsthat men believe they need to be
(36:27):
and the things that theybelieve they should and
shouldn't feel, i believe ismore common in men than it is in
women.
And so, to point out onespecific thing, i'd have to
think about that Something assimple as crying right, if a man
(36:52):
cries versus if a woman cries,there are different assumptions
made about that who that personis, if that's a good thing, if
that's a bad thing, and thoseneed to be addressed with those
people.
I know, with men, for example,if we're gonna talk about
(37:12):
pornography, there is no waythey're ready.
Many men, most men, there is noway they're ready to talk about
that in front of women.
And then I've also met othermen that will only talk about
that with women because theydon't feel safe talking about
that with men.
So, just like everything elsein our world, it's gotten much
(37:35):
smaller.
We're seeing all differentsides of this and a lot of
different aspects and dynamicsthat maybe we didn't see before,
and I've seen a group that Iknow benefits from a focus on
the masculine, from themasculine, and as they step into
healthier aspects of themselves, they're then able to have a
(37:58):
better effect on the feminine intheir life, the other masculine
in their life, and so on and soforth.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
So if someone does all this work, if they go to
groups like this, if theyconnect to different aspects of
themselves and other people,what's the end result?
In other words, if say they doit all, then what?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Awareness.
That, to me, is really what anyof us are going for in life.
Any healing journey, anymodality that we use, everything
that we do is to bring furtherawareness as to one, why we did
the things that we did, whywe're doing the things that
(38:46):
we're doing, and the awarenessof choice that we can do
something different in thefuture, in 2020, i didn't feel
like I had a lot of choices.
I did, but I wasn't doingenough work.
I wasn't aware of enough thingsto see the choices that I had
in front of me.
I saw one choice.
Fortunately, i saw two, butthat one choice was becoming
(39:12):
more and more prevalent.
So we see that every day Peoplethat feel like they only have
one choice anymore Andunfortunately, that suicide
greatly affects men more thanwomen, and especially men that
are between the ages of about 30and 50.
(39:35):
So I feel very responsible andvery motivated to get in front
of as many men as possible andmake sure that they are aware of
the choices that they have.
The simple choice that you canbe sad, that that's okay.
That doesn't mean you fail.
That doesn't mean that you'reweak.
(39:55):
That doesn't mean that it's allover.
That doesn't mean that womenaren't going to desire you
anymore, that doesn't mean yourchildren aren't going to respect
you anymore.
All of these things arethoughts that men have had about
being sad.
So when they realize that it'sokay to be sad and they are
everything changes.
So that, to me, is the endresult A further and higher
(40:21):
state of awareness and from that, the ability to make more
choices and experience moregrowth.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
I feel like a lot of people don't understand what
more awareness actually means.
In other words, you say thatand then they go okay, well, i
know more, but so what?
Right?
Like, what does that actuallymean?
And I know that as I've grownin my own awareness.
It feels like there's lots ofchoices, not just one or two.
So I'm curious if you couldpaint a picture of what
(40:55):
awareness actually looks like insomeone's life.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
That is an excellent proposal.
The way that we are raised aspeople and again I'm
generalizing here, right, butthe amount of men that I've
talked to over the past threeand a half years the way that
(41:25):
men are raised is you need to bestrong, and strong means you
don't show emotion, you justdon't okay.
And if you do, you are weak.
Plain and simple,straightforward.
Whether we say it like that ornot, that is what we're taught
(41:48):
From a very young age.
The kid that's playing t-balland falls down and mom said oh,
don't cry.
Why the hell not, right?
But that's what we're tolddon't cry.
The dad that said oh, just rubsome dirt on it, right?
The coach is like oh yeah, youcut your knee open, we're gonna
(42:11):
celebrate the fact that you'rebleeding, walk it off.
We're conditioned from likeinfants to not cry, to not feel,
to be strong.
This is just one example, right?
So if you grow up with that andanytime you feel any of those
(42:32):
things, rather than expressingit, rather than working through
it, rather than saying why, am Isad, right.
Let me tell a story.
So I'm gonna do a tangent on atangent.
I'm nine years old.
I'm in the store with my dad.
I still a candy bar.
Okay, this may or may not bebased on true events.
(42:57):
The store catches me stealing acandy bar.
So what happens after that?
What is the fallout?
Well, the store's upset, right,because they were stolen from
Makes sense.
I need to make things rightwith the store.
My dad is upset because his sonstole and generally most men
(43:22):
respond to something like thatwith frustration and anger.
Okay, my mom is sad because nowher son is this hardened
criminal and is looking at alife of crime going forward.
And most people.
God is also upset and sad,right, because you've broken one
(43:44):
of God's laws to not steal.
So what does this young boy do?
He needs to make the store feelbetter.
He needs to make dad feelbetter.
He needs to make mom feelbetter.
He needs to make God feelbetter.
Nobody ever asks him why hestole the candy bar.
(44:04):
What awareness is he going tohave from that going forward?
He's not going to think aboutwhy I do the things that I do.
He's going to learn to not getcaught because that's awful,
right.
Or if I do get caught, i betterbe really good at managing that
(44:26):
situation.
So now, that is what the boysawareness is.
If we teach and we learn, we say, hey, what was going on there?
What was going on for you thatyou stole that?
What's going on with yourschool?
What's going on with yourpersonal life, right?
(44:46):
And we're talking about thesethings, and this young man
starts to be able to associatethe choices he's making with the
boys.
He's going to associate thechoices he's making with the
things he's feeling, with thethings that he's experiencing in
life.
He now has awareness.
He's now going to makedifferent choices.
(45:06):
Right, repeat that process inenough different things over
time, and we're going to juststart to churn out one
particular type of man, right?
So, again going back, the samething happens with our emotions.
If it's pride or anger, you'regood.
I've been taught by societythat I can express those.
(45:28):
But anger, again, not too much.
Only, unlike the cool ways thatmovies show anger, everything
else you oppress.
You're not going to see thatyou have a choice to do anything
else with any of your emotions.
Right, if we teach men that itis okay to feel sad, it is okay
(45:54):
to feel silly, playful, thatit's okay to be afraid, that
it's okay to be angry all ofthese things like really angry
when you're ugly crying andthrowing a fit, stomping your
arms on the ground, right.
Then that young man starts tounderstand why he's feeling
(46:19):
those things.
He gets to start exploring thatAnd now, the awareness of the
emotions that he has.
It's like being able to go fromseeing black and white to seeing
color TV.
Right, does black and white TV?
Yeah, you can get by with it,it's okay.
We did that for a lot of years,but then we had color TV.
(46:41):
Then what happened?
Technology improved And now wehave the awareness of this thing
called HD, and none of us hadthat even in our awareness.
We didn't know that was apossibility.
Then it happened, and now it'skind of hard to imagine life
without it And that will justcontinue to happen, right.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, but as you wake
(47:06):
up, you know the things you knowand you know the things that
you don't know.
But you don't know the thingsthat you don't know And that's a
whole lot.
That's like most of theuniverse.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Well, it gives me a follow-up question.
Please, why did the boy stealthe candy bar You?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
know, on all fairness to my father, i do think he
asked me, but my dad is about mysame size, which is very large,
and I could tell he was veryupset.
So I just was very intent ontelling him that that's not what
I did, why the boy stole thecandy bar.
(47:47):
I think the boy had a lot ofscarcity mindset even at a young
age And he was already startingto kind of hoard and set things
aside out of fear.
That's only something that Ifigured out last year, yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
It's interesting.
What you're describing isessentially gentle parenting.
Gentle parenting is abouttrying to understand why
children do things, as opposedto just control their behavior
through your reaction.
So if you punish them when theydo things that you don't want
and then reward them when theydo what you do, the behavior
(48:36):
might be there, but the internalworld is going to be very
different, right?
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I've got four children And I consider myself
to be a very good dad And Iabsolutely recognize the way
that I did those exact thingsthat you were talking about when
they would.
I consider myself a good dadbecause I didn't necessarily
(49:02):
punish them when they did bad,but when they did good I would.
I would reward them, and whenthey felt discomfort, you know
what I did Hey, let's go getsome ice cream, let's go sit in
front of a TV and eat some icecream.
And I taught them to repress.
I've been so frustrated withmyself recognizing that I did
(49:26):
those things.
The best shift that I have madeas a parent is to get really,
really curious, anything thatthey do, whether I think it's
good or whether I think it's bad.
Hey, what's going on?
What was that about?
What are you feeling about that?
What are you feeling about life?
How can I support you in that?
(49:48):
Why are you upset?
Are you upset?
Why are you upset?
And just asking questions?
I don't have to do a whole heckof a lot.
I direct them back intothemselves And, shockingly, all
the answers are already there.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah, it's amazing how much awareness will answer
the question or solve theproblem in and of itself.
In other words, it sounds likeif your family had realized that
you had a scarcity mindset, youwere worried about not having
enough and they taught you howto get the things you wanted you
(50:30):
probably would have had tosteal them, right.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Absolutely, and I understand I get defensive of my
family when I tell this storyThe retrospect is 2020.
Sure, and thank goodness forthat, because that's how we
learn And my parents made lotsof mistakes And, great, i get to
(50:55):
learn from those And they getto learn from those, and I've
made a lot of mistakes inparenting And my willingness to
go back and look at those.
I get to learn from those aswell.
And, honestly, it's never toolate.
As much as we like to tellourselves it's too late for us
to change, it's not.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
I wanted to ask you about one piece of that story,
which is that I really liked thephrase God is upset.
We have to make God feel better, because I grew up in the
evangelical Christian world AndI'm very familiar with this sort
of strange relationship withGod that a lot of traditional
(51:34):
families teach And it soundslike a lot of the work that
you're doing.
I mean, the group's name iseven Sacred Sons, right, so it
sounds like there is anintersection between that and
spirituality And I'm curiouswhat spirituality looks like in
a group like that and what theysort of teach.
That might be different than acodependent relationship with
(51:57):
God, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Right, it's a good question.
Sacred Sons itself does notnecessarily have any dogma or
defined belief systems.
Absolutely, there is an impliedbelief in a higher power And
(52:20):
anybody is welcome to bringtheir understanding of that with
them or their disagreement ofthat with them.
Right, there are people therethat will call it God or
Heavenly Father or Source orUniverse or Mother God or
Pachamama or whatever it mightbe, and all of those people are
(52:46):
welcome with that.
I run something here locallycalled the Utah Men's Circle And
, being in Utah, there ispredominance of the LDS faith
And that's the way that I grewup And that, honestly, is still
very important to me.
Where I have started todifferentiate culturally is
(53:11):
similar to the Old Testamentversus the New Testament.
The Old Testament and the Bibleyou look in, god was pretty
angry, god was very vengeful.
You touch this thing, you'regoing to die.
There's just no ifs ands andbuts about it.
The New Testament, god becamemuch more loving, much more
(53:31):
understanding, much moreforgiving, and my belief in God,
my relationship with God, verymuch falls in line with Christ's
primary teachings, which was tolove God, to love your neighbor
, and the prerequisite to thatbeing love yourself.
And so that is as I reflect onyour question, what is shared
(54:01):
there at Sacred Sons?
there's an openness and awillingness to accept people in
their beliefs And there's aninvitation for people to look at
their beliefs and to make surethat those beliefs are actually
benefiting them And that they'rebenefiting their growth, if
they're benefiting theirawareness, if they're benefiting
(54:24):
those around them And notbenefiting as far as, like, i
want to do this thing and my Godsays that I can't, so that's
not benefiting me.
No, not like that.
But to say, you know, within myreligion, the belief is X And
that really runs contrary towhat I believe about this Y.
Let's talk and we get reallycurious.
(54:46):
And is there a resolution foryou in that?
Or is that something that youwould need to step away from,
but never, never mandated, neverpractically even brought up,
but just the invitation is there.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
If someone goes to a group like this, do they usually
have an intention or apreexisting thing that they know
they want to work on?
Or is it better to go sort ofopen ended and say I don't know
what, I don't know and we'llfind out?
Speaker 1 (55:22):
Both have happened.
What's interesting is there isa percentage of men that show up
because my wife has fed up, ormy mother or my family or
whoever it might be.
They're just done with me, andthis is kind of my last-ditch
(55:43):
effort And so those people showup really not knowing what to
expect and without a certainintention around it, other than
this is going to appease thosethat are in my life, other
people and I'm answering yourquestion over the evolution of
(56:06):
the past couple of years becauseI believe initially it was born
more from urgency and emergency.
And again going back to the gymanalogy, i was a personal
trainer for a number of yearsAnd oftentimes, who were the
clients that would talk to me?
They were the ones that hadjust had the heart attack, just
(56:29):
been diagnosed with diabetes.
After the problem, it was timeto address this stuff, and so
oftentimes that still happens,and at least once a week I'm
introduced to a man who thegambling addiction finally
caught up with him, or hefinally just had a mental
breakdown at work, or he wasdiagnosed with cancer, whatever
(56:53):
it might be.
And so now it's time to reallystart looking at my life.
That is the culture.
That is the number one culturalshift that I'm trying to affect
is to proactively startaddressing your masculine health
, the same way we need to startproactively addressing our
(57:14):
physical health.
The same way we need to startaddressing our emotional, mental
, sexual, financial, whatever itmight be.
In this country we are veryreactive.
You look at our healthcaresystem.
It is not designed to benefitthose that want to be proactive
with their health.
It is designed to put band-aidson things, quite literally.
So we have taken that andapplied that to a lot of
(57:37):
different aspects of our lifeAnd it's not working out well.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
So if someone's listening to this and they want
to be proactive so proactivethat they're not even going to
wait to go to one of theseevents or something like it they
want to just do something rightafter listening to this podcast
, what's something they could do?
Speaker 1 (57:57):
Reach out to me.
They could reach out to me, andI run weekly online group
coaching for men And we have abrotherhood that continues to
grow of men that are doing thisnow every week, and we have
different again, modalities,different things that we offer
(58:19):
for you to be able to start toexplore and gain further
awareness.
You could also, if you'relistening to this podcast, i'm
hoping that means you're willingto listen to some other ones.
Sacred Sons has a weeklypodcast where they're addressing
different components of this aswell.
There's some exploration there.
(58:42):
Do a Google search and see ifthere is a men's group or a
men's circle in your local area.
If you're not, you know, ableto find that personally.
Again, reach out to me.
I'm pretty well connectedacross at least the United
States where I can put you incontact with other men that are
doing that same work.
Speaker 2 (59:02):
How should one evaluate a men's group?
You know, if you go, how do youdetermine if it's right for you
or if it's a space that youshould be going to regularly?
Speaker 1 (59:15):
No question, and I have a bias here, but that bias
is based again, a proof ofconcept and what I've been
studying for a number of yearsThere are a couple of different
types of men's groups.
There's the men's group that isbased on, like military
ideology We are going to tearyou down, turn you into nothing
(59:37):
and then build you back up theway that we want you to be.
That, to me, is one of theworst things that you can do.
It is not going to help you.
It is.
It's going to feel really goodin the moment because you're
going to, adrenaline is going toget going and it's going to
kick in.
All this conditioning of, likeRocky music and every military
movie you've ever seen, and likeright, testosterone is going to
(59:57):
flow, but your level ofawareness I've not seen that be
affected the same way.
On the opposite end, there isthe men's groups that are the
male apologists, which you'reawful, i'm awful.
We're all pieces of crap ormurderers, rapists, we're serial
(01:00:17):
killers, and we just need totalk about how awful we are to
each other.
Also, not sustainable.
Do we need to understand whatwe individually have done in our
lives and what we as a genderhave done specifically here, but
really all over the world.
(01:00:37):
Yes, we do.
We need to understand that, andthere's a level of
accountability that comes withthat.
And just saying that you'regarbage and apologizing for
being garbage, all that that'snot going to result in anything
either, right?
So the middle ground being finda men's group.
(01:00:58):
That's real curious about you.
The men's groups that I run itis not Joe's group, look at Joe
do what Joe does, right?
Joe loves you, so I facilitateit.
I find the location, i set itup, i pay for it sometimes,
(01:01:19):
right?
The men's group that I dohere's free, for example.
But and then I'm just reallycurious about who you are, how
you're feeling and how I cansupport you in that.
If you find a men's group whereyou've got one person that's
telling you they have all theanswers, i haven't seen that as
a sustainable option either.
(01:01:39):
So you're really looking for agroup and you're really looking
for a circle where everybodythere is going to treat you as
an equal and really value whoyou are and what you're bringing
to the table as well, even whenyou can't see what you're
bringing.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
It sounds like to come full circle.
You're looking for a group thatwill help increase your
authentic self, rather than justgive you a really well designed
mask that they've built for you.
Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Yeah, that's a great way to put it All of you is
welcome here.
That is one of the statementswe make in Sacred Sons.
Not all of you are welcome herealso, true, but all of you is
welcome here.
So bring all your parts.
Bring the parts that you thinkare ugly.
Bring the parts that you'reashamed of.
Bring the parts you don't tellpeople about, because, come to
(01:02:35):
find out, you're not the onlyone.
You're not the only one that'sbeen struggling with those.
You're not the only one that'sbeen told they're bad.
You're not the only one thatwants to be a better version of
yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
And there is catharsis and there's healing
just in knowing that there's aman that feels what you feel and
that cares that you're feelingit That made a connection for me
, because in the past when I'veseen men's groups, i think I've
seen a lot of the other twotypes that you describe, of a
(01:03:12):
sort of disciplinarian orself-abasement of some kind, and
because of that I've had sortof a mixed feeling about them,
because some aspects are likethe ones that you've been
describing in this conversationand then some are like those
other aspects that you mentionedearlier And I like the model of
(01:03:36):
do these people care about myfeelings as like a real, just
simple question to know whetheror not the group might be one.
We're staying in.
Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Certainly There's space for that.
Again, we've seen this oftentimes in capitalism, where you
become a number and you becomepart of a bottom line.
Right, should people becompensated for the gifts and
talents that they have?
Absolutely, and are you so muchmore than the dollars that you
contribute to that?
(01:04:08):
Yes, you are.
Find someone that understandsboth of those things.
I think that's a great way toput that.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
It's making some connections for other things for
me, because I've also been inprofessional activists, all
sorts of other differentenvironments where I could tell
people didn't care about myfeelings.
They saw that I was successfulin some way and that that
success might lead to somethingfor them, or they saw an
opportunity that I could helpthem with.
(01:04:38):
And I'm wondering how youhandle those environments, those
environments where you're notfree to bring your full self,
especially after you've you knowit's another challenge of how
you get a taste of spaces whereit is okay to be yourself, you
know, being around people whereit's not okay, how is it that
you handle that And go ahead?
Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
So me personally, i've become much more
comfortable stepping away fromthose spaces.
I feel like I spent a lot of mylife fighting for my worth and
trying to convince others of myworth, and that's exhausting,
(01:05:27):
right.
So, as I understand my worthand I accept that for myself,
i'm not really interested inconvincing anybody else of that.
Now there are a lot of peoplewho will say that, and they say
it with a certain level of sassIt's like I'm not going to prove
myself to anybody or anythinglike that And there's a
(01:05:49):
currently still a chip on theshoulder around that right Where
there's, there's some room thatprobably needs to be addressed
there where you didn't feelvalued the way that you needed
to feel, and so it doesn't needto be a big fit.
It doesn't need to be a youknow I'm leaving and I'm
quitting and you don't value meand I value.
No, you just.
You simply go where you arevalued, you go where your
(01:06:12):
desired, you go where you'rewanted and you're very
comfortable knowing that there'ssomewhere for that.
If it's not where you're at,it's going to be somewhere that
has to come from inside first,right.
That, to me, is if there's, ifthere's, any ideology or any of
the things that I I teach that Ibelieve very strongly.
(01:06:36):
It is recognizing how much of mylife I live from the outside,
in, where I would wake up in themorning and I would say I hope
my partner is nice to me, i hopemy boss is nice to me, i hope
the weather is good, i hope theeconomy is good, i hope the
government does the things thatI wanted to do, and if everybody
else obeys and behavesthemselves, then I have a chance
(01:06:59):
in hell of maybe being happyand feeling valued.
That is a losing battle, but Idid that for a long time and you
spend most of your time againmanaging everybody else's
expectations, managing everybodyelse's emotions.
When you make the switch andsay what do I want to create
(01:07:19):
today?
How do I feel about me?
I value me And I want to createsomething good and beautiful
beautiful driven from a place oflove versus that other thing
which is from fear.
Well, now it doesn't matterwhat the economy is doing and it
doesn't matter what my boss isdoing and it doesn't matter what
my partner is doing.
I am in command of how I showup in the world.
(01:07:42):
I'm not in command of any ofthem and I don't have to be, but
now I get to value me and I getto know what I'm about.
I get to know my worth and Ioperate from that place in a
much more effortless way.
Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
It feels a lot better .
Yeah, control is a losing game.
Well, is there anything thatyou want to talk about that we
didn't talk about?
Anything?
you wish I'd asked you that Ididn't, or that we wanted to get
to you, that we just sort ofskipped over?
Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
That first event that I did with Sacred Sons.
As I stood there kind ofastounded and not sure exactly
what it was I experienced, and Iwas surrounded by this group of
40 men, my first thought was Idon't know how to take this home
to my own family, to my owncommunity, and what I have done
(01:08:49):
over the past three years, whatI've been learning, two things.
The first, to be best describedin a quote by St Francis of
Assisi, lived like a thousandyears ago and was talking about
the church.
But he said preach the gospelat all times.
When necessary, use words.
(01:09:10):
And I believe that is true toanything that we are passionate
about.
That, as we embody it as we are, simply go about being it.
That is the best form ofpreaching there can be.
And so my mission, my goal, isto be embodying this and to
(01:09:32):
really be about the work, asmuch as I love to talk about it,
more importantly it is to beabout it.
And then, secondly, i wasunaware of anybody here locally
where I lived, that was doingthis type of stuff, and I've
been to enough of those salesretreats and Tony Robbins and so
(01:09:54):
many of those other type ofthings that I knew if I didn't
make some changes, nothing wasgoing to change.
And so I did.
I started a local Utah men'scircle And the first time nobody
showed up.
The second time nobody showedup.
But it was important to me so Ikept going And I've since
(01:10:16):
created this online group calledthe Algeez Guard that I run to
be another offering for men andto have another place that man
can go to do this work.
So if this is something you feelcalled to, know that you're not
alone, know that you're notalone, know that there are
people that truly care about you, not because of the money
(01:10:39):
you're going to provide them.
It's because you're you thatyou have value and that there
are resources here to help you,to support you, and not just
what I'm providing but with somany others are doing in so many
beautiful ways.
You have to give yourselfpermission to value yourself
enough to be willing to bring itinto your life, and ultimately
(01:11:03):
that is affected.
Every other aspect of my life,the way that I show up in my own
family, the way that I show upin my career, the way that I
show up in my religion, the waythat I show up for my physical
health, everything It has had aprofound and beautiful effect
for which I will forever begrateful.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Joe, i can say, having met you in person which
is a lot of my guests I've onlycommunicated with like this that
I do feel like you reallyembody a lot of the values that
you've talked about here, Andthat that was what initially
made me want to talk with you inthis format was seeing you in
person and noticing the energywith which you carry yourself.
(01:11:45):
So thank you for doing that.
Thank you, brandon.
Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
I accept that and I am grateful for that.
With with the caveat, and maybeit, maybe it doesn't need to be
said, but I'm going to say itanyway.
This will continue to be a workin progress for me, like it is
everybody else.
I think the the detriment tosocial media and some of the
things we see is that assumptionand that mask that Joe must
(01:12:16):
have it all together.
I don't.
I'm working hard and I continueto learn and I continue to
evolve And I think it'simportant for leaders to speak
to those things.
I think it's important to be aleader and to speak to the fact
that you're not perfect, but youcan still be a leader.
As a matter of fact, you needto be.
So.
(01:12:37):
Thank you, brandon.
Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
Thank you.
If people want to connect withyou, join a men's group or join
your online group, where shouldthey do that?
Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
My Instagram page is my name at Joe Spearden.
We can put that in the notesbecause it's kind of a spell.
And then the online stuff thatI run is called the Algeez Guard
also kind of hard to spell, butthat can be there Algeez Guard
dot com, if you wanted to signup for that weekly men's group
that I run online primarilyonline.
So those will be the two bestmethods, cool.
Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Well, thank you for talking with me today.
Thank you, thank you forlistening to the Brandon Marata
show.
If you like this episode,please subscribe and leave a
positive review.
On whatever platform you listento podcasts on, if you really
like this show, please become asupporter of the show.
Go to brendanmaratacom slashshow and become a monthly paying
member.
Supporters get access tospecial bonus videos and videos
that you can find on the website.
(01:13:30):
If you're interested in gettinga new podcast, please subscribe
to the channel.
If you're interested in gettinga new podcast, please subscribe
to the channel And become amonthly paying member.
Supporters get access tospecial bonus content and
episodes only available to them.
So become a supporter atbrendanmaratacom slash show.
Thank you again for listeningto this episode and I will talk
to you all later.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.