Jamie M. Lima and Jonathan Aslay explore the connection between emotional health and financial decisions in divorce. They discuss marriage's financial implications, "money scripts," and their impact on divorce outcomes. The episode covers adversarial divorces, mediation, and how financial upbringing influences relationships, highlighting gender differences in generating financial resources. They emphasize honest financial conversations, the risks of one partner managing finances, and the importance of self-care during divorce. The discussion concludes with insights on turning divorce struggles into professional passion and self-discovery.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of broke up,not broken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your life and your finances
throughout the entire process.
In today's episode, I'm honored to hostJonathan Asley, one of America's leading
(00:23):
midlife dating coaches who has turned profoundpersonal loss into a journey of self discovery
and healing.
Following the tragic loss of his son, Jonathandelved deeply into the roots of emotional
health issues in dating, uncovering thecritical need for self love.
Today, he shares insights from his books book,what the heck is self love anyway, and his
(00:44):
mission to transform dating into a journey ofpersonal growth.
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, and let's once again get you personally
and financially empowered.
Jonathan, it's so great to have you here withus today.
Oh, I'm honored to be here.
Thanks, Jamie.
I'm excited about this conversation.
Yeah, man.
This is gonna be a great convo, and a lot oflot of the work that we do on the financial
(01:05):
side and and and is is important for sure.
But, you know, a lot a lot of the work we alsodo with our clients is is helping them
understand the emotional feelings and the senseof turmoil and all the stuff that's swirling
around them as they're as they're going througha divorce and how they, you know, handle that
so they can make good financial decisionsthrough this process.
(01:26):
And so I'm interested in talking to you todayabout, you know, the behavioral aspects that
people deal with as they're going through adivorce and how to maintain self love and self
care and all that all that stuff through theprocess, especially as somebody who went
through a divorce themselves, both of us,having that experience and, know, trying to
maintain some semblance of of, you know, sanitythrough the process.
(01:48):
So I think this is gonna be a greatconversation, man.
So and I'm big fan of behavioral finance Yeah.
Being a financial planner for almost twentyyears.
So I'm I'm looking at, you know, delve intothat with you a little bit here today.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
I was raised I'm a tail end baby boomer, GenXer.
So I was raised with this go to college, get ajob, meet a girl, get married, buy a house,
(02:12):
start a family.
Like, that was the programming that I had formy parents.
I mean, I I I mean, still to this day, it's itstill rings in my head, you know, forty plus
years later.
And so when I went through a divorce, Irealized that that programming, you know,
wasn't it it wasn't even really my script.
(02:34):
That was my mom and dad's script that Ifollowed.
And so when I was going through a divorce,there's this unraveling of the tapestry of your
life with another human being, both on aphysical level, on an emotional level, on a
spiritual level, and, yes, a financial level.
Because what's interesting is when you getmarried, I I don't think and you tell me if you
(02:58):
knew knew this, but I didn't realize thatmarriage was a relationship with the
government.
You know?
I I I honestly didn't know that, you know,twenty five years ago.
That's what a marriage is.
I mean, I had a different fantasy of what amarriage was.
And most importantly, that relationship withthe government is centered around money and or
(03:18):
children.
And that the government has rule over yourlife.
And boy, did I learn that the hard way goingthrough a divorce.
And so what's interesting now and I and I I'm adating and relationship coach primarily to help
women understand what men go through on anemotional level of going through a divorce.
(03:42):
If you're dating someone who's even in themidst of a divorce or has a contentious
relationship, and usually money plays a factorin that.
Absolutely.
And and I I wanna go back to the that moneyscripts concept that you you mentioned here.
A lot of our listeners may or may not haveheard that that concept, that theory
previously.
So can you, you know, maybe elaborate on that alittle bit more and maybe even go a little bit
(04:05):
further into, how that shapes who we are from aas people from a financial perspective as well?
Yeah.
I think it's so I I think it's important tounderstand, or at least this is my perception,
so this is my reality, is that we wereimprinted with scripts from our parents or the
people that raised us.
And these scripts are much like code for aprogram.
(04:29):
So you and I are using a program to have thisconversation right now.
But if you actually went behind the screen,there's all this code, you know, x's and o's
and ones and minuses and all.
I don't know what code is.
I'm just making that up.
But there's all this code that creates ourcapacity to interact with one another.
Well, we human beings have the same thing.
(04:51):
We have code.
We have genetic code.
You know?
We have, you know, code from our imprintingfrom our parents.
We have it it's both socio you know, it'scultural.
It's religious.
It's socioeconomic.
All of this code.
And one of those code, particularly for men, isthat we are supposed to be the provider
(05:14):
protector.
That's the code that's been written for us.
And today, providing protecting isn't aboutmuscles and swords and and, you know, shields
and all that battling.
It's financial.
It's money related.
Our capacity to generate resources.
And what oftentimes happens in divorce for menwho are the you not not all men are the
(05:39):
breadwinners, but in many cases, they're theprimary breadwinner.
For a lot of men going through divorce, there'sthis now this their their their script, I'm I'm
supposed to be the provider protector, and,like, I don't wanna, like, know if I don't know
if I wanna do that for someone new coming backto the dating realm.
That's like one thing that might happen to thatscript that was written well before they ever
(06:02):
got married, as an example.
It's and it's huge.
And and I I also don't wanna forget about yourcomment about the government gaining control
over every aspect of your life.
We can we may have to come back to that becausethat's that that might be a whole podcast in
and of itself, but I
Oh my
I would concur with you and your thoughts onthat.
I'm one I'm a big, you know, not an advocate orproponent, but I I say all the time, like, you
(06:24):
know, this is it's a contractual agreementyou're getting into in in divorce.
Every everybody thinks it's like rainbows andbutterflies and, you know, 35,000, 50 thousand
dollar weddings and the cutting the cake typeof stuff.
But at the end of the day, it's really just alegal contract that we're all celebrating.
And and divorce is just the opposite.
Right?
Like, you're you're separating you're you'rebasically taking that contract and throwing in
(06:47):
the trash can.
But so these these Scratch
up on that for a second, Jake.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, this is and I know I'm I'm gonnathrow a monkey wrench in what you're about to
say next, but, you know, this is the trickypart of human pair bonding.
So
Mhmm.
When I say human pair bonding, two peopledeciding that they're gonna partner up and do
life together.
Because in that, the reality is is we needresources, which is money, to survive.
(07:13):
And and not just to survive in our basic needsof what's happening in our life now, but our
future needs because our capacity to generateresources begins to diminish as we age.
And yet the cost to survive beyond our capacityto generate resources requires oftentimes this
(07:33):
term of nest egg or retirement or four zero oneks and all these things.
And I think there's this fear of once you splitup assets, you no longer taking the advantage
of combining two people and making it one, soto speak.
And then there's this fear that happens.
Do I have enough resources?
(07:53):
And this is where the contention happens indivorce because the government is controlling
that versus you being able to control that.
And by the way, it's there's to the extent thatthe government is there is because oftentimes
people are adversarial about where they standon money.
You're absolutely right.
And that's that's why as a mediator myself, I'mI'm a certified mediator.
(08:16):
We do a lot of mediation cases.
And those those conversations, the this banmentof that marriage, that contractual obligation,
the dissolution of it goes so much better andis so much more cost effective if both sides
are just kinda like, how do we make this thethe most amicable way possible?
And how do we I wanna go on with my life.
How do we get you to go on with your life?
(08:38):
And how do we how do we support one anotherthrough that process?
Yeah.
When the when the when the gloves come off andand it's just this this ongoing fight, you're
absolutely right.
You know, the the the government, the, youknow, the the courts, whatever whatever you
wanna call them, are all gonna get involved.
And in many ways, the only people that make anymoney or make out make out in this in the whole
process are the attorneys.
(08:59):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I don't
know if you know James Sexton, but he's kind ofpopular in the in the podcast circuit.
He's a high end divorce attorney out of NewYork.
I'm talking you know, I think he bills out at1,500 an hour.
Yeah.
First thing, I don't know what it is.
But, you know, he's talking about theimportance of prenups before you ever get
(09:21):
married, you know, which is a whole anotherconversation we can have.
But at least on some level before you enterinto this contract that you're actually doing
it with a sense of awareness versus the whatdid you say?
The hundred or the $80,000 wedding and thecakes and
the Yeah.
Yeah.
And, like,
maybe that's what we should be thinking aboutbefore we get married versus the glamour of
(09:44):
getting married.
Well and and here's the thing.
It's like a lot of people that are listeningnow are either going through it or recovering
from it.
Right?
And and and and they're and I want you to thinkif you're if that's you and you're listening
that it's too late because there's two thingsthat you can think about in relative to these
the money scripts that we're talking about.
Number one is how do in many ways, it's how itgot it may have if you're if there were
(10:07):
arguments over money all the time and that wasa source of contention in the marriage, then in
many ways, you can look in the rearview mirrorand go, okay.
Like, now what?
Maybe you can understand it a little bitbetter.
Or you can also look at it forward thinking andthink if I'm gonna get into another
relationship moving forward and I'm gonna I'mgonna try to have a success successful second
marriage or second relationship you know, postdivorce, you have to understand your own money
(10:31):
script and how you what your relationship withwith money is like.
You know, do you stress over it?
Do you not think about it?
Like, you me even go back to your childhooddays about how you got to be where you are and
and your relationship with money and what'sthat what that's like.
Because if you can better understand that,people like Jonathan and financial planners
like ourselves can help you make betterfinancial decisions moving forward, and you may
(10:54):
not be in that same spot again.
Am I am I right?
Yeah.
You're absolutely right, man.
I wanna delve about money scripts because theycome in all different forms.
You know?
Like, I I'm gonna give you an example.
I I was culturally I was my my parents are fromIstanbul, Turkey.
Mhmm.
And and culturally, there's this kind of and Idon't know if this is true for all Turks today,
(11:17):
but certainly while I was growing up, there wasthis script of, like, keeping score
financially.
Like, when someone does something for you, youare obligated to do something for them.
That's a script that I was raised with.
So I struggle sometimes when somebody gives meyou know, like, there's a generosity from
someone because I have a script that I have topay them back.
(11:40):
You know?
And and currency isn't always money.
There's a different energy you know, energy isa currency too.
So that's one script I have.
Like so even and it and it rears its ugly headwhen dating because when someone is generous to
me, I feel an obligation.
Or Mhmm.
If I'm generous to somebody, I feel that theyowe me.
(12:02):
You know?
And and this is where the concept of, you knowyou know, we're supposed to be altruistic and
give without receiving, but I have a scriptaround that that's centered around money, and
and it plays havoc in my life.
Not I don't do this by choice, but it's therebecause it's such a strong script.
And this is an example of that code that wetalk I talked about earlier or scripts that we
(12:26):
all have.
You know?
And we're all raised with different scripts,and it's going to affect our relationships, and
it's certainly going to affect how we navigatea divorce.
Yeah.
It's all part of your DNA.
Yeah.
You know, I mean it's I share the story all thetime about my parents were divorced when I was
seven or eight years old and and my my motherworked multiple jobs, my dad worked multiple
(12:47):
jobs to try to you know, now support twohouseholds.
Yeah.
And there was a time when I had friendsbringing us groceries because we didn't have
any food in the pantry.
Yeah.
And and, you know, if if you don't think that'sgonna make a lasting impact on your life,
you're crazy.
Right?
And and that's a lot of reasons why I went intothe world of financial planning because I was
(13:08):
always so focused around, you know, money andearning money and saving money and investing
money.
And how do I how do I ensure that my kids neverhave that same level of stress in their lives
that I did at the age of seven or eight?
And that's that's that's a perfect example of amoney script and now it changed my life.
Yes.
Certainly, people that, for example, that grewup with affluence and had money growing up,
(13:30):
they have a different relationship to moneythan somebody who maybe is grown up with
poverty or scarcity.
I have friends who grew up with parents whowere from the depression era.
And so their parental script around scarcityaround money because of the depression bled
over.
And by the way, when I say parents, I also meangrandparents that influenced it, you know, is
(13:55):
that the grandparents influence the parents,the parents influence the child around scarcity
around money because of the depression.
So and and guess and since my audience is alittle bit more about dating, I know yours is
in the midst of divorce or or considering evensome people I by the way, I think anybody who's
(14:16):
considering marriage needs to listen to thesepodcasts to be better prepared.
By the way, I think it's better if you're aboutto get married, I think you should listen to
these podcasts.
But if you're in the dating realm like I am,you know, we have such this grand expectation
that men are supposed to be the they have topay.
They have to be chivalrous.
They have to climb to the highest room of thetallest tower to prove their worth,
(14:38):
predominantly from a financial perspective.
And after a divorce, you know, there like Isaid, there's not only an emotional unraveling,
but there's a financial unraveling of your baseof security.
And a lot of people are just gun shy.
They're afraid.
They're reluctant.
Because, you know, as we age, our capacity togenerate resources begins to diminish for most
(15:06):
people.
I mean Yeah.
You know, and I'm talking about once you startgetting into the 55, 60 year old range.
You know?
Certainly if you're in your thirties orforties, it's a different ballgame.
So and this can have an emotional effect onyou.
So that's why I talk about the emotionaleffects of what men particularly go through
divorce.
And by the way, women have their own fearsaround this too.
(15:28):
So it's it's it's it's, you know, it's the sameit's it's two sides of a coin, so to speak.
Here, what I've seen in our world is aboutninety five percent of the people that reach
out for help and the clients that we have, andthey're women.
Right?
And and if you've listened to any of theprevious podcast I've and and that have where
(15:51):
we talked about this, it's I I tell people allthe time, like, this is it's because women are
I don't know if they're smarter.
I feel like they're smarter when it comes tostuff like this because they're not afraid to
reach out and get the help.
And they they check their ego at the door, soto speak.
And they they're like, listen.
I know where my downfall fall falls are.
I know where my blind spots are.
Can you help?
And I and and that we we believe that there'ssome value in making an investment in the
(16:15):
services that, you know, are for our companyprovides.
Why do you think, in your opinion, knowingknowing what you know about dudes and
behavioral finance and behavior in general andso on, why are these guys not reaching out for
the help?
Well, can I I wanna answer that question aslightly different way?
I I wanna address why I think women reach outfor help, and I think that will hopefully
(16:38):
answer our question.
So I think the reason why women reach out iswell, depending on the relationship that the
arrangement that was going on during themarriage.
So if you had two people both working, theymade equal amount of money in the relationship.
Their capacity to generate resources wererelatively equal.
(16:59):
They tend to split assets relatively equal.
They tend to go their own ways.
I mean, that's if you know, circumstances.
Okay?
Now if the man is the predominant breadwinnerand the women woman was the homemaker, okay,
men traditionally have a capacity to generateresources even as they get into their fifties
(17:22):
and sixties.
But if a woman hasn't been in the workplace fora while, her capacity to generate resources, I
mean, might not even exist, but or maybe, youknow, quite a bit different.
And then can you even sustain that into yourfifties and sixties?
So what I think women are doing, and I thinkfor fair reason, is they're trying to prepare
(17:46):
life from that premises.
I may not be able to generate resource.
So is this person going to is my, you know,husband or ex husband going to still provide
for me?
So because you made this agreement, you wereholding hands, you gave a ring to each other,
sickness and health, death do its part, richeror poorer.
You're like, this is the promise that was made.
(18:08):
Yeah.
So I think that's the reason why women go seekhelp because they're really being strategic.
How am I going to cover myself for the rest ofmy life?
Now in some cases they want to hoard all of themoney and say it's all mine because I need it
all to survive.
Because again, two incomes are better than one.
(18:29):
Two people together is better than one.
So when you separate it, you're literallydisbanding that that nest egg, if you will.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Why don't men do it?
Well, men are clueless.
You know, I I just wanna call men are, youknow, men are oftentimes just clueless.
You know?
We don't think about it.
By the way, like, you've been in the businesslong enough to understand everything I said.
(18:54):
Right?
I didn't when I went through a divorce twentyyears ago, I wasn't thinking along this way.
I wasn't thinking about any of this stuff.
All I knew is the government all of a suddenhad control over my life, and I was a deer in
the headlights.
And I was clueless to all this.
It would have been nice to know about this wellbefore I ever got married.
(19:17):
It would have been nice to have someunderstanding about this, and thankfully, the
younger generation is listening to podcastslike this and thinking about this because when
I was growing up, I was and not only was Iclueless going in, but I was clueless coming
out.
Yeah.
It's I I would concur with everything you saidthere.
A lot of the a lot of the guys that are outthere that are if you're and you're one of
(19:39):
them, you're listening, you know, you've gottaget rid of this John Wayne syndrome and and,
you know, yourself in a position where you'renot clueless going into this.
Because even even as a financial plannermyself, I think I was probably thirteen or
fourteen years into the into the my career atthat stage going into my own divorce.
I was like, oh, I've got it all figured out.
(19:59):
No problem.
Got it handled.
And then I realized how clueless I was abouthalfway through.
Yeah.
And men can have a propensity to beirresponsible.
I mean, as responsible as men can be, they canalso be irresponsible.
I think oftentimes what happens in marriage ifthe man is the predominant breadwinner and his
role is to be the provider in that particularcase, sometimes men are radically
(20:24):
irresponsible.
I'm watching the series White Lotus right nowfor and it's I mean, you know, I I know this is
time sensitive, but there's a scene where thehusband is going through a major financial
calamity in his life.
At least that's the episode I saw last night.
And and his wife has no clue of what's going onbecause in many cases, the man is the %
(20:48):
responsible for this, and the woman is nodisrespect.
It's just like she's trusting the man to lookout for the best interest.
And by the way, it's scary when you put yourfaith into another human being.
I mean, that's one of the benefits of marriageis the trust.
But at the same time, what if the person'sacting irresponsibly?
(21:08):
That's why women come out and seek help becausethey oftentimes weren't even involved in the
finances of the relationship.
Absolutely.
You know, I'll last comment on that becauseyou're what you're saying is so so true in so
many ways.
And then I wanna shift into the self lovepiece, and then we talk about your book and and
and that type of thing.
But what what we I found in twenty years ofdoing this type of work on the, you know,
(21:30):
financial planning work, there's usually onedecision maker in the home.
We'll use your example as of the white lotusscenario.
He's the decision maker.
He's the one that controls all the finances,probably the breadwinner.
He pays the bills.
He plays a credit card.
He does this and that and the others.
And then she's clueless in many ways becauseshe doesn't have to worry about it.
And because she's focused on other things,raising the kids and getting them on the school
(21:52):
bus and taking them off the school bus and getthem to their doctor appointments and
extracurricular activities.
I get it.
But what I've seen also in this twenty years isthat that one of these days, that person's not
gonna be there by death or divorce.
Yeah.
And then you're left to pick up the pieces, andit is incredibly, incredibly difficult to do.
(22:14):
And so if you're out there listening and that'syou, you know, you it's now time to start
paying some some attention to some of thesethings.
Because if that other person is no longeraround for whatever reason, it it makes it
very, very difficult to mourn the loss of theirlife.
We'll use that as an example.
When you're trying to you're sitting in myoffice trying to figure out, you know, how much
(22:36):
money you have in your brokerage account orwhat what does four zero one k look like.
You know, it's it's very, very difficult.
I think unlike, you know, hundreds of years agowhen we tended to live in villages and tribes
and you were being supported by other familymembers and and not just emotionally, but
physically.
You know, these issues weren't as prevalentbecause you had a gigantic support system.
(23:00):
Here in The United States, predominantly, weare very much a ice we're, you know, once you
get out of the home, you're on your own kind ofthing.
I'm not saying that's an absolute, but thatoftentimes is the case.
And because of that, there's a lot morepressure financially within the relationship.
And, if if if people aren't having theseradically honest conversations with or at least
(23:27):
couples aren't having this, boy, it can be ascary place to be.
And then and then we gotta throw the governmentwho's gonna make the decision for us, and
that's a whole another ball of whack.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You wanted to shift the conversation.
We'll we'll we'll talk we'll talk about the thegovernment and the debacle that they usually
create for all of us in in part two of thisconversate but one of the things I know you're
(23:51):
an expert in this area, and and I'm I'm askingyou I'm gonna ask you some of these questions
self selfishly because it's all about me inthis kind I'm only kidding.
But By the way, we all have
to put on the oxygen mask on ourselves first.
So One thank you for that analogy.
One one of the things that I failed to do in myown divorce is focus on self care and self
(24:12):
love.
Yeah.
So I want you to speak to some of that a littlebit here.
And, obviously, we're know, this doesn't haveto be, you know, the financial component of our
conversation.
This is more of the, you know, the personal,empowerment piece of this.
But, like, I want can you talk a little bitabout that?
I mean, you you've wrote the book.
I'm seeing that that it's an amazing cover pagetoo on your on your book back there.
(24:32):
I I like that a lot.
Here.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Drawn.
That was hand drawn.
Was it really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The person who created my book cover, sheAndrew that.
So so I I wanna share the difference betweenself care and self love.
You know, self care is certainly, you know, ourphysical health, you know, massages, manicures,
pedicures, that sort of thing, getting yourhaircut, you know, shaving.
(24:55):
That's all part of self care.
Self love.
The way I I look at self love is I think ofwords like self worth, self esteem, self
confidence, self reliance, self discipline.
Those are all encompassed in the word love.
But more importantly, all of us have a a littlesix year old inside of us, emotionally
(25:16):
speaking, that needs nurturing.
So there's the adult in us, and then we have anemotional six year old inside of us.
When the six year old is scared, nervous,uneasy, anxiety, what self love is is the adult
in you nurturing that little six year oldinside of you that's scared.
(25:37):
That's the way.
And nothing I'm going to tell you, divorcecreates fear, anxiety, money issues, all of
that.
The little six year old inside of us could beradically scared when, as I said, when you
unravel the tapestry of your life with somebodyelse.
And so self love is that nurturing that littlesix year old inside of us.
(26:01):
Maybe that's coming to someone like you anddoing a financial plan.
Maybe that's coming to a mediator to navigatethe divorce versus, you know, a divorce
attorney where it's adversarial.
These are all and self love is nurturingyourself through these difficult times.
Divorce is a very emotionally traumaticexperience.
(26:23):
And in many cases, Jamie, and I'm sure youwould agree, it could even create PTSD.
I mean, it can create a real trauma that willhave ripple effects for years after the
divorce.
I know just even the midst of my divorce, whichit took two years to get finalized, I was hyper
(26:43):
I was I was in such emotional pain because ourswas somewhat contentious.
And then there was taking care of children andfamily court and, you know, visitation rights
and, alimony, child support.
All of these things was an emotional drainingvortex for me.
At that time, I didn't know how to nurturemyself.
(27:06):
This is why I talk about the importance ofpersonal development, self help, spiritual
work, and therapy.
And by the way, anyone going through a divorce,I highly recommend investing, coming back to
money, investing in therapy to navigate thisemotional dismantling of your life, to
(27:26):
reintegrate back into your sovereignty and takecare of that little six year old inside of you.
You you you everything you said resonated withme so much, man.
I mean, like, I I went from running 50 to 70miles a week at one point in my life to
basically not even been able to walk to themailbox because it was in you know, we live in
(27:49):
a more rural area, so it's about a half mile ofmy mailbox, which is Yeah.
Would be nothing, you know, when running 50 to70 miles.
And and I was like, I you guys didn't feelright.
I was, like, off.
And it's it's just because you're you like, youyou use the word vortex.
That's exactly what you're in.
You're in the middle of that and this tornadoof stuff just flying around, and we're all just
(28:11):
human.
So, like, how do we how do we
handle share something?
Yeah.
When I went through my divorce, the week my mythen now ex wife and I decided to split up, I
lost my high end corporate job where I wasmaking over a quarter million dollars a year.
(28:32):
My company laid me off, and now I'm in themidst of a divorce, and then the market crash
of two thousand eight was upon us.
I my identity got wiped out.
I financially got wiped out, and, emotionally,I got wiped out.
I was in such a pit of despair that I used togo to bed wishing I didn't wake up.
(28:53):
And a lot of that was money related because,you know, a man's worth oftentimes is centered
around his capacity to make money.
That's, you know, we're you know, we have thisscript that a man's worth is tied to his bank
account, and a woman's worth is tied to herbeauty.
I'm not saying it's a right script.
I'm just saying it is the script.
(29:13):
So I think it's important, as I said earlier,you know, particularly, you know, if you before
you ever get married, I think you should do alot of work understanding what marriage really
is all about, particularly from thatcontractual arrangement.
I think it's great to sit with someone likeyourself before you ever decide to get married.
(29:35):
And certainly if you're going through adivorce, I mean, do your best to to put
together a team of people around you becauseI'm gonna tell you something.
I went to bed wishing I didn't wake up.
That lasted for over five years.
Was I
was in so much pain.
Like, you couldn't get to the mailbox kind ofthing.
(29:56):
I I used to go I used to just close thecurtains and have it dark in my room, and I
just sit there for an I mean, weeks upon weeksupon weeks.
Oh, that is absolutely terrible to hear.
And there the the scary thing is, though,there's probably a thousand people out there
right now listening to this that are feelingthe same exact way.
(30:16):
Yeah.
And, like, I mean, we we had very similarexperiences.
I I I didn't go that far into the level ofdespair, thankfully.
But, you know, I I went through a careerchange, started a new company.
We because I was basically laid off myself fromone of the one of the firms that I was working
for.
This was during the pandemic.
(30:37):
So for early early part of the pandemic, my mydivorce had been finalized at that point, but
it was kind of like we were it had justfinished, and now I was I was all I was so
excited about the next phase of my life.
Yeah.
And then the shit hit the fan effectively andeverything unraveled.
So it was we've since recovered from that,thankfully.
But, like, it's like I couldn't catch a breakfor a few years there.
(30:59):
And, like Yeah.
You're like, what do I do?
You My
addiction to get through all this was onlinedating.
It eventually became my vocation.
So my addiction became my vocation just like,you know, an interventionist is oftentimes a
former alcoholic or drug addict.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My addiction to online dating ended up turninginto my passion to help people to have these
(31:26):
conversations.
Like, all I mean, a big part of what I do ishave these conversations so we can at least
have compassion for one another.
You know?
This thing called life is not easy.
You know?
We have this fantasy.
It should be how did you put it?
Sunshine, rainbows, and angels singing.
You know?
Whatever it is.
But the reality is is, you know, life is is isan experience, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
(31:51):
I would like to finish on this note.
My book is about personal development, selfhelp, spiritual work and therapy.
That's the main crux of it.
And to anyone listening, I invite you to do thework of of self discovery and which is really
nurturing that little kid inside of us.
(32:13):
Because when we do that, whether you're back inthe dating marketplace after a divorce or not,
you'll be better prepared.
And as I said to, you know, said to Jamie, weput the oxygen mask on ourselves first.
That's really what self love is is when you cannurture your own soul, you can be a better
partner to someone else in the future.
Oh, it's amazing, man.
(32:35):
Such powerful stuff today.
I'm I'm we didn't even get to the questions Ihad baked for us.
That's how awesome this conversation was.
So we'll we'll we'll come back to that.
Those another time.
But I'm so appreciative of of you and your timetoday and for for joining us today and sharing
your transformative insights into self love.
We talked about finances, dating, kinda ran thegamut here.
(32:55):
So if for our listeners who wish to delvedeeper into Jonathan's teachings, go ahead and
check out his YouTube channel and considerreading his book, what the heck is self love
anyway?
Can you show that picture one more time so theycan see the cover?
I think it's awesome.
Book.
The heck is self love?
I love it.
And remember, if you're going through personalchallenges or looking to rediscover your sense
of self worth, folks like us here at AllegiantDivorce Solutions are here to support you all
(33:19):
along the way.
Visit allegiantds.com for more resources andguidance, and don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast, broke up not broken, for moreempowering discussions just like this one.
Until next time.
Welcome back to another episode of broke up,not broken.
(00:03):
I'm your host, Jamie Lima and founder ofAllegiant Divorce Solutions, where we help
people prepare for, navigate, and recoverfinancially from divorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your life and your finances
throughout the entire process.
In today's episode, I'm honored to hostJonathan Asley, one of America's leading
(00:23):
midlife dating coaches who has turned profoundpersonal loss into a journey of self discovery
and healing.
Following the tragic loss of his son, Jonathandelved deeply into the roots of emotional
health issues in dating, uncovering thecritical need for self love.
Today, he shares insights from his books book,what the heck is self love anyway, and his
(00:44):
mission to transform dating into a journey ofpersonal growth.
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, and let's once again get you personally
and financially empowered.
Jonathan, it's so great to have you here withus today.
Oh, I'm honored to be here.
Thanks, Jamie.
I'm excited about this conversation.
Yeah, man.
This is gonna be a great convo, and a lot oflot of the work that we do on the financial
(01:05):
side and and and is is important for sure.
But, you know, a lot a lot of the work we alsodo with our clients is is helping them
understand the emotional feelings and the senseof turmoil and all the stuff that's swirling
around them as they're as they're going througha divorce and how they, you know, handle that
so they can make good financial decisionsthrough this process.
(01:26):
And so I'm interested in talking to you todayabout, you know, the behavioral aspects that
people deal with as they're going through adivorce and how to maintain self love and self
care and all that all that stuff through theprocess, especially as somebody who went
through a divorce themselves, both of us,having that experience and, know, trying to
maintain some semblance of of, you know, sanitythrough the process.
(01:48):
So I think this is gonna be a greatconversation, man.
So and I'm big fan of behavioral finance Yeah.
Being a financial planner for almost twentyyears.
So I'm I'm looking at, you know, delve intothat with you a little bit here today.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
I was raised I'm a tail end baby boomer, GenXer.
So I was raised with this go to college, get ajob, meet a girl, get married, buy a house,
(02:12):
start a family.
Like, that was the programming that I had formy parents.
I mean, I I I mean, still to this day, it's itstill rings in my head, you know, forty plus
years later.
And so when I went through a divorce, Irealized that that programming, you know,
wasn't it it wasn't even really my script.
(02:34):
That was my mom and dad's script that Ifollowed.
And so when I was going through a divorce,there's this unraveling of the tapestry of your
life with another human being, both on aphysical level, on an emotional level, on a
spiritual level, and, yes, a financial level.
Because what's interesting is when you getmarried, I I don't think and you tell me if you
(02:58):
knew knew this, but I didn't realize thatmarriage was a relationship with the
government.
You know?
I I I honestly didn't know that, you know,twenty five years ago.
That's what a marriage is.
I mean, I had a different fantasy of what amarriage was.
And most importantly, that relationship withthe government is centered around money and or
(03:18):
children.
And that the government has rule over yourlife.
And boy, did I learn that the hard way goingthrough a divorce.
And so what's interesting now and I and I I'm adating and relationship coach primarily to help
women understand what men go through on anemotional level of going through a divorce.
(03:42):
If you're dating someone who's even in themidst of a divorce or has a contentious
relationship, and usually money plays a factorin that.
Absolutely.
And and I I wanna go back to the that moneyscripts concept that you you mentioned here.
A lot of our listeners may or may not haveheard that that concept, that theory
previously.
So can you, you know, maybe elaborate on that alittle bit more and maybe even go a little bit
(04:05):
further into, how that shapes who we are from aas people from a financial perspective as well?
Yeah.
I think it's so I I think it's important tounderstand, or at least this is my perception,
so this is my reality, is that we wereimprinted with scripts from our parents or the
people that raised us.
And these scripts are much like code for aprogram.
(04:29):
So you and I are using a program to have thisconversation right now.
But if you actually went behind the screen,there's all this code, you know, x's and o's
and ones and minuses and all.
I don't know what code is.
I'm just making that up.
But there's all this code that creates ourcapacity to interact with one another.
Well, we human beings have the same thing.
(04:51):
We have code.
We have genetic code.
You know?
We have, you know, code from our imprintingfrom our parents.
We have it it's both socio you know, it'scultural.
It's religious.
It's socioeconomic.
All of this code.
And one of those code, particularly for men, isthat we are supposed to be the provider
(05:14):
protector.
That's the code that's been written for us.
And today, providing protecting isn't aboutmuscles and swords and and, you know, shields
and all that battling.
It's financial.
It's money related.
Our capacity to generate resources.
And what oftentimes happens in divorce for menwho are the you not not all men are the
(05:39):
breadwinners, but in many cases, they're theprimary breadwinner.
For a lot of men going through divorce, there'sthis now this their their their script, I'm I'm
supposed to be the provider protector, and,like, I don't wanna, like, know if I don't know
if I wanna do that for someone new coming backto the dating realm.
That's like one thing that might happen to thatscript that was written well before they ever
(06:02):
got married, as an example.
It's and it's huge.
And and I I also don't wanna forget about yourcomment about the government gaining control
over every aspect of your life.
We can we may have to come back to that becausethat's that that might be a whole podcast in
and of itself, but I
Oh my
I would concur with you and your thoughts onthat.
I'm one I'm a big, you know, not an advocate orproponent, but I I say all the time, like, you
(06:24):
know, this is it's a contractual agreementyou're getting into in in divorce.
Every everybody thinks it's like rainbows andbutterflies and, you know, 35,000, 50 thousand
dollar weddings and the cutting the cake typeof stuff.
But at the end of the day, it's really just alegal contract that we're all celebrating.
And and divorce is just the opposite.
Right?
Like, you're you're separating you're you'rebasically taking that contract and throwing in
(06:47):
the trash can.
But so these these Scratch
up on that for a second, Jake.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, this is and I know I'm I'm gonnathrow a monkey wrench in what you're about to
say next, but, you know, this is the trickypart of human pair bonding.
So
Mhmm.
When I say human pair bonding, two peopledeciding that they're gonna partner up and do
life together.
Because in that, the reality is is we needresources, which is money, to survive.
(07:13):
And and not just to survive in our basic needsof what's happening in our life now, but our
future needs because our capacity to generateresources begins to diminish as we age.
And yet the cost to survive beyond our capacityto generate resources requires oftentimes this
(07:33):
term of nest egg or retirement or four zero oneks and all these things.
And I think there's this fear of once you splitup assets, you no longer taking the advantage
of combining two people and making it one, soto speak.
And then there's this fear that happens.
Do I have enough resources?
(07:53):
And this is where the contention happens indivorce because the government is controlling
that versus you being able to control that.
And by the way, it's there's to the extent thatthe government is there is because oftentimes
people are adversarial about where they standon money.
You're absolutely right.
And that's that's why as a mediator myself, I'mI'm a certified mediator.
(08:16):
We do a lot of mediation cases.
And those those conversations, the this banmentof that marriage, that contractual obligation,
the dissolution of it goes so much better andis so much more cost effective if both sides
are just kinda like, how do we make this thethe most amicable way possible?
And how do we I wanna go on with my life.
How do we get you to go on with your life?
(08:38):
And how do we how do we support one anotherthrough that process?
Yeah.
When the when the when the gloves come off andand it's just this this ongoing fight, you're
absolutely right.
You know, the the the government, the, youknow, the the courts, whatever whatever you
wanna call them, are all gonna get involved.
And in many ways, the only people that make anymoney or make out make out in this in the whole
process are the attorneys.
(08:59):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I don't
know if you know James Sexton, but he's kind ofpopular in the in the podcast circuit.
He's a high end divorce attorney out of NewYork.
I'm talking you know, I think he bills out at1,500 an hour.
Yeah.
First thing, I don't know what it is.
But, you know, he's talking about theimportance of prenups before you ever get
(09:21):
married, you know, which is a whole anotherconversation we can have.
But at least on some level before you enterinto this contract that you're actually doing
it with a sense of awareness versus the whatdid you say?
The hundred or the $80,000 wedding and thecakes and
the Yeah.
Yeah.
And, like,
maybe that's what we should be thinking aboutbefore we get married versus the glamour of
(09:44):
getting married.
Well and and here's the thing.
It's like a lot of people that are listeningnow are either going through it or recovering
from it.
Right?
And and and and they're and I want you to thinkif you're if that's you and you're listening
that it's too late because there's two thingsthat you can think about in relative to these
the money scripts that we're talking about.
Number one is how do in many ways, it's how itgot it may have if you're if there were
(10:07):
arguments over money all the time and that wasa source of contention in the marriage, then in
many ways, you can look in the rearview mirrorand go, okay.
Like, now what?
Maybe you can understand it a little bitbetter.
Or you can also look at it forward thinking andthink if I'm gonna get into another
relationship moving forward and I'm gonna I'mgonna try to have a success successful second
marriage or second relationship you know, postdivorce, you have to understand your own money
(10:31):
script and how you what your relationship withwith money is like.
You know, do you stress over it?
Do you not think about it?
Like, you me even go back to your childhooddays about how you got to be where you are and
and your relationship with money and what'sthat what that's like.
Because if you can better understand that,people like Jonathan and financial planners
like ourselves can help you make betterfinancial decisions moving forward, and you may
(10:54):
not be in that same spot again.
Am I am I right?
Yeah.
You're absolutely right, man.
I wanna delve about money scripts because theycome in all different forms.
You know?
Like, I I'm gonna give you an example.
I I was culturally I was my my parents are fromIstanbul, Turkey.
Mhmm.
And and culturally, there's this kind of and Idon't know if this is true for all Turks today,
(11:17):
but certainly while I was growing up, there wasthis script of, like, keeping score
financially.
Like, when someone does something for you, youare obligated to do something for them.
That's a script that I was raised with.
So I struggle sometimes when somebody gives meyou know, like, there's a generosity from
someone because I have a script that I have topay them back.
(11:40):
You know?
And and currency isn't always money.
There's a different energy you know, energy isa currency too.
So that's one script I have.
Like so even and it and it rears its ugly headwhen dating because when someone is generous to
me, I feel an obligation.
Or Mhmm.
If I'm generous to somebody, I feel that theyowe me.
(12:02):
You know?
And and this is where the concept of, you knowyou know, we're supposed to be altruistic and
give without receiving, but I have a scriptaround that that's centered around money, and
and it plays havoc in my life.
Not I don't do this by choice, but it's therebecause it's such a strong script.
And this is an example of that code that wetalk I talked about earlier or scripts that we
(12:26):
all have.
You know?
And we're all raised with different scripts,and it's going to affect our relationships, and
it's certainly going to affect how we navigatea divorce.
Yeah.
It's all part of your DNA.
Yeah.
You know, I mean it's I share the story all thetime about my parents were divorced when I was
seven or eight years old and and my my motherworked multiple jobs, my dad worked multiple
(12:47):
jobs to try to you know, now support twohouseholds.
Yeah.
And there was a time when I had friendsbringing us groceries because we didn't have
any food in the pantry.
Yeah.
And and, you know, if if you don't think that'sgonna make a lasting impact on your life,
you're crazy.
Right?
And and that's a lot of reasons why I went intothe world of financial planning because I was
(13:08):
always so focused around, you know, money andearning money and saving money and investing
money.
And how do I how do I ensure that my kids neverhave that same level of stress in their lives
that I did at the age of seven or eight?
And that's that's that's a perfect example of amoney script and now it changed my life.
Yes.
Certainly, people that, for example, that grewup with affluence and had money growing up,
(13:30):
they have a different relationship to moneythan somebody who maybe is grown up with
poverty or scarcity.
I have friends who grew up with parents whowere from the depression era.
And so their parental script around scarcityaround money because of the depression bled
over.
And by the way, when I say parents, I also meangrandparents that influenced it, you know, is
(13:55):
that the grandparents influence the parents,the parents influence the child around scarcity
around money because of the depression.
So and and guess and since my audience is alittle bit more about dating, I know yours is
in the midst of divorce or or considering evensome people I by the way, I think anybody who's
(14:16):
considering marriage needs to listen to thesepodcasts to be better prepared.
By the way, I think it's better if you're aboutto get married, I think you should listen to
these podcasts.
But if you're in the dating realm like I am,you know, we have such this grand expectation
that men are supposed to be the they have topay.
They have to be chivalrous.
They have to climb to the highest room of thetallest tower to prove their worth,
(14:38):
predominantly from a financial perspective.
And after a divorce, you know, there like Isaid, there's not only an emotional unraveling,
but there's a financial unraveling of your baseof security.
And a lot of people are just gun shy.
They're afraid.
They're reluctant.
Because, you know, as we age, our capacity togenerate resources begins to diminish for most
(15:06):
people.
I mean Yeah.
You know, and I'm talking about once you startgetting into the 55, 60 year old range.
You know?
Certainly if you're in your thirties orforties, it's a different ballgame.
So and this can have an emotional effect onyou.
So that's why I talk about the emotionaleffects of what men particularly go through
divorce.
And by the way, women have their own fearsaround this too.
(15:28):
So it's it's it's it's, you know, it's the sameit's it's two sides of a coin, so to speak.
Here, what I've seen in our world is aboutninety five percent of the people that reach
out for help and the clients that we have, andthey're women.
Right?
And and if you've listened to any of theprevious podcast I've and and that have where
(15:51):
we talked about this, it's I I tell people allthe time, like, this is it's because women are
I don't know if they're smarter.
I feel like they're smarter when it comes tostuff like this because they're not afraid to
reach out and get the help.
And they they check their ego at the door, soto speak.
And they they're like, listen.
I know where my downfall fall falls are.
I know where my blind spots are.
Can you help?
And I and and that we we believe that there'ssome value in making an investment in the
(16:15):
services that, you know, are for our companyprovides.
Why do you think, in your opinion, knowingknowing what you know about dudes and
behavioral finance and behavior in general andso on, why are these guys not reaching out for
the help?
Well, can I I wanna answer that question aslightly different way?
I I wanna address why I think women reach outfor help, and I think that will hopefully
(16:38):
answer our question.
So I think the reason why women reach out iswell, depending on the relationship that the
arrangement that was going on during themarriage.
So if you had two people both working, theymade equal amount of money in the relationship.
Their capacity to generate resources wererelatively equal.
(16:59):
They tend to split assets relatively equal.
They tend to go their own ways.
I mean, that's if you know, circumstances.
Okay?
Now if the man is the predominant breadwinnerand the women woman was the homemaker, okay,
men traditionally have a capacity to generateresources even as they get into their fifties
(17:22):
and sixties.
But if a woman hasn't been in the workplace fora while, her capacity to generate resources, I
mean, might not even exist, but or maybe, youknow, quite a bit different.
And then can you even sustain that into yourfifties and sixties?
So what I think women are doing, and I thinkfor fair reason, is they're trying to prepare
(17:46):
life from that premises.
I may not be able to generate resource.
So is this person going to is my, you know,husband or ex husband going to still provide
for me?
So because you made this agreement, you wereholding hands, you gave a ring to each other,
sickness and health, death do its part, richeror poorer.
You're like, this is the promise that was made.
(18:08):
Yeah.
So I think that's the reason why women go seekhelp because they're really being strategic.
How am I going to cover myself for the rest ofmy life?
Now in some cases they want to hoard all of themoney and say it's all mine because I need it
all to survive.
Because again, two incomes are better than one.
(18:29):
Two people together is better than one.
So when you separate it, you're literallydisbanding that that nest egg, if you will.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Why don't men do it?
Well, men are clueless.
You know, I I just wanna call men are, youknow, men are oftentimes just clueless.
You know?
We don't think about it.
By the way, like, you've been in the businesslong enough to understand everything I said.
(18:54):
Right?
I didn't when I went through a divorce twentyyears ago, I wasn't thinking along this way.
I wasn't thinking about any of this stuff.
All I knew is the government all of a suddenhad control over my life, and I was a deer in
the headlights.
And I was clueless to all this.
It would have been nice to know about this wellbefore I ever got married.
(19:17):
It would have been nice to have someunderstanding about this, and thankfully, the
younger generation is listening to podcastslike this and thinking about this because when
I was growing up, I was and not only was Iclueless going in, but I was clueless coming
out.
Yeah.
It's I I would concur with everything you saidthere.
A lot of the a lot of the guys that are outthere that are if you're and you're one of
(19:39):
them, you're listening, you know, you've gottaget rid of this John Wayne syndrome and and,
you know, yourself in a position where you'renot clueless going into this.
Because even even as a financial plannermyself, I think I was probably thirteen or
fourteen years into the into the my career atthat stage going into my own divorce.
I was like, oh, I've got it all figured out.
(19:59):
No problem.
Got it handled.
And then I realized how clueless I was abouthalfway through.
Yeah.
And men can have a propensity to beirresponsible.
I mean, as responsible as men can be, they canalso be irresponsible.
I think oftentimes what happens in marriage ifthe man is the predominant breadwinner and his
role is to be the provider in that particularcase, sometimes men are radically
(20:24):
irresponsible.
I'm watching the series White Lotus right nowfor and it's I mean, you know, I I know this is
time sensitive, but there's a scene where thehusband is going through a major financial
calamity in his life.
At least that's the episode I saw last night.
And and his wife has no clue of what's going onbecause in many cases, the man is the %
(20:48):
responsible for this, and the woman is nodisrespect.
It's just like she's trusting the man to lookout for the best interest.
And by the way, it's scary when you put yourfaith into another human being.
I mean, that's one of the benefits of marriageis the trust.
But at the same time, what if the person'sacting irresponsibly?
(21:08):
That's why women come out and seek help becausethey oftentimes weren't even involved in the
finances of the relationship.
Absolutely.
You know, I'll last comment on that becauseyou're what you're saying is so so true in so
many ways.
And then I wanna shift into the self lovepiece, and then we talk about your book and and
and that type of thing.
But what what we I found in twenty years ofdoing this type of work on the, you know,
(21:30):
financial planning work, there's usually onedecision maker in the home.
We'll use your example as of the white lotusscenario.
He's the decision maker.
He's the one that controls all the finances,probably the breadwinner.
He pays the bills.
He plays a credit card.
He does this and that and the others.
And then she's clueless in many ways becauseshe doesn't have to worry about it.
And because she's focused on other things,raising the kids and getting them on the school
(21:52):
bus and taking them off the school bus and getthem to their doctor appointments and
extracurricular activities.
I get it.
But what I've seen also in this twenty years isthat that one of these days, that person's not
gonna be there by death or divorce.
Yeah.
And then you're left to pick up the pieces, andit is incredibly, incredibly difficult to do.
(22:14):
And so if you're out there listening and that'syou, you know, you it's now time to start
paying some some attention to some of thesethings.
Because if that other person is no longeraround for whatever reason, it it makes it
very, very difficult to mourn the loss of theirlife.
We'll use that as an example.
When you're trying to you're sitting in myoffice trying to figure out, you know, how much
(22:36):
money you have in your brokerage account orwhat what does four zero one k look like.
You know, it's it's very, very difficult.
I think unlike, you know, hundreds of years agowhen we tended to live in villages and tribes
and you were being supported by other familymembers and and not just emotionally, but
physically.
You know, these issues weren't as prevalentbecause you had a gigantic support system.
(23:00):
Here in The United States, predominantly, weare very much a ice we're, you know, once you
get out of the home, you're on your own kind ofthing.
I'm not saying that's an absolute, but thatoftentimes is the case.
And because of that, there's a lot morepressure financially within the relationship.
And, if if if people aren't having theseradically honest conversations with or at least
(23:27):
couples aren't having this, boy, it can be ascary place to be.
And then and then we gotta throw the governmentwho's gonna make the decision for us, and
that's a whole another ball of whack.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You wanted to shift the conversation.
We'll we'll we'll talk we'll talk about the thegovernment and the debacle that they usually
create for all of us in in part two of thisconversate but one of the things I know you're
(23:51):
an expert in this area, and and I'm I'm askingyou I'm gonna ask you some of these questions
self selfishly because it's all about me inthis kind I'm only kidding.
But By the way, we all have
to put on the oxygen mask on ourselves first.
So One thank you for that analogy.
One one of the things that I failed to do in myown divorce is focus on self care and self
(24:12):
love.
Yeah.
So I want you to speak to some of that a littlebit here.
And, obviously, we're know, this doesn't haveto be, you know, the financial component of our
conversation.
This is more of the, you know, the personal,empowerment piece of this.
But, like, I want can you talk a little bitabout that?
I mean, you you've wrote the book.
I'm seeing that that it's an amazing cover pagetoo on your on your book back there.
(24:32):
I I like that a lot.
Here.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Drawn.
That was hand drawn.
Was it really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The person who created my book cover, sheAndrew that.
So so I I wanna share the difference betweenself care and self love.
You know, self care is certainly, you know, ourphysical health, you know, massages, manicures,
pedicures, that sort of thing, getting yourhaircut, you know, shaving.
(24:55):
That's all part of self care.
Self love.
The way I I look at self love is I think ofwords like self worth, self esteem, self
confidence, self reliance, self discipline.
Those are all encompassed in the word love.
But more importantly, all of us have a a littlesix year old inside of us, emotionally
(25:16):
speaking, that needs nurturing.
So there's the adult in us, and then we have anemotional six year old inside of us.
When the six year old is scared, nervous,uneasy, anxiety, what self love is is the adult
in you nurturing that little six year oldinside of you that's scared.
(25:37):
That's the way.
And nothing I'm going to tell you, divorcecreates fear, anxiety, money issues, all of
that.
The little six year old inside of us could beradically scared when, as I said, when you
unravel the tapestry of your life with somebodyelse.
And so self love is that nurturing that littlesix year old inside of us.
(26:01):
Maybe that's coming to someone like you anddoing a financial plan.
Maybe that's coming to a mediator to navigatethe divorce versus, you know, a divorce
attorney where it's adversarial.
These are all and self love is nurturingyourself through these difficult times.
Divorce is a very emotionally traumaticexperience.
(26:23):
And in many cases, Jamie, and I'm sure youwould agree, it could even create PTSD.
I mean, it can create a real trauma that willhave ripple effects for years after the
divorce.
I know just even the midst of my divorce, whichit took two years to get finalized, I was hyper
(26:43):
I was I was in such emotional pain because ourswas somewhat contentious.
And then there was taking care of children andfamily court and, you know, visitation rights
and, alimony, child support.
All of these things was an emotional drainingvortex for me.
At that time, I didn't know how to nurturemyself.
(27:06):
This is why I talk about the importance ofpersonal development, self help, spiritual
work, and therapy.
And by the way, anyone going through a divorce,I highly recommend investing, coming back to
money, investing in therapy to navigate thisemotional dismantling of your life, to
(27:26):
reintegrate back into your sovereignty and takecare of that little six year old inside of you.
You you you everything you said resonated withme so much, man.
I mean, like, I I went from running 50 to 70miles a week at one point in my life to
basically not even been able to walk to themailbox because it was in you know, we live in
(27:49):
a more rural area, so it's about a half mile ofmy mailbox, which is Yeah.
Would be nothing, you know, when running 50 to70 miles.
And and I was like, I you guys didn't feelright.
I was, like, off.
And it's it's just because you're you like, youyou use the word vortex.
That's exactly what you're in.
You're in the middle of that and this tornadoof stuff just flying around, and we're all just
(28:11):
human.
So, like, how do we how do we
handle share something?
Yeah.
When I went through my divorce, the week my mythen now ex wife and I decided to split up, I
lost my high end corporate job where I wasmaking over a quarter million dollars a year.
(28:32):
My company laid me off, and now I'm in themidst of a divorce, and then the market crash
of two thousand eight was upon us.
I my identity got wiped out.
I financially got wiped out, and, emotionally,I got wiped out.
I was in such a pit of despair that I used togo to bed wishing I didn't wake up.
(28:53):
And a lot of that was money related because,you know, a man's worth oftentimes is centered
around his capacity to make money.
That's, you know, we're you know, we have thisscript that a man's worth is tied to his bank
account, and a woman's worth is tied to herbeauty.
I'm not saying it's a right script.
I'm just saying it is the script.
(29:13):
So I think it's important, as I said earlier,you know, particularly, you know, if you before
you ever get married, I think you should do alot of work understanding what marriage really
is all about, particularly from thatcontractual arrangement.
I think it's great to sit with someone likeyourself before you ever decide to get married.
(29:35):
And certainly if you're going through adivorce, I mean, do your best to to put
together a team of people around you becauseI'm gonna tell you something.
I went to bed wishing I didn't wake up.
That lasted for over five years.
Was I
was in so much pain.
Like, you couldn't get to the mailbox kind ofthing.
(29:56):
I I used to go I used to just close thecurtains and have it dark in my room, and I
just sit there for an I mean, weeks upon weeksupon weeks.
Oh, that is absolutely terrible to hear.
And there the the scary thing is, though,there's probably a thousand people out there
right now listening to this that are feelingthe same exact way.
(30:16):
Yeah.
And, like, I mean, we we had very similarexperiences.
I I I didn't go that far into the level ofdespair, thankfully.
But, you know, I I went through a careerchange, started a new company.
We because I was basically laid off myself fromone of the one of the firms that I was working
for.
This was during the pandemic.
(30:37):
So for early early part of the pandemic, my mydivorce had been finalized at that point, but
it was kind of like we were it had justfinished, and now I was I was all I was so
excited about the next phase of my life.
Yeah.
And then the shit hit the fan effectively andeverything unraveled.
So it was we've since recovered from that,thankfully.
But, like, it's like I couldn't catch a breakfor a few years there.
(30:59):
And, like Yeah.
You're like, what do I do?
You My
addiction to get through all this was onlinedating.
It eventually became my vocation.
So my addiction became my vocation just like,you know, an interventionist is oftentimes a
former alcoholic or drug addict.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My addiction to online dating ended up turninginto my passion to help people to have these
(31:26):
conversations.
Like, all I mean, a big part of what I do ishave these conversations so we can at least
have compassion for one another.
You know?
This thing called life is not easy.
You know?
We have this fantasy.
It should be how did you put it?
Sunshine, rainbows, and angels singing.
You know?
Whatever it is.
But the reality is is, you know, life is is isan experience, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
(31:51):
I would like to finish on this note.
My book is about personal development, selfhelp, spiritual work and therapy.
That's the main crux of it.
And to anyone listening, I invite you to do thework of of self discovery and which is really
nurturing that little kid inside of us.
(32:13):
Because when we do that, whether you're back inthe dating marketplace after a divorce or not,
you'll be better prepared.
And as I said to, you know, said to Jamie, weput the oxygen mask on ourselves first.
That's really what self love is is when you cannurture your own soul, you can be a better
partner to someone else in the future.
Oh, it's amazing, man.
(32:35):
Such powerful stuff today.
I'm I'm we didn't even get to the questions Ihad baked for us.
That's how awesome this conversation was.
So we'll we'll we'll come back to that.
Those another time.
But I'm so appreciative of of you and your timetoday and for for joining us today and sharing
your transformative insights into self love.
We talked about finances, dating, kinda ran thegamut here.
(32:55):
So if for our listeners who wish to delvedeeper into Jonathan's teachings, go ahead and
check out his YouTube channel and considerreading his book, what the heck is self love
anyway?
Can you show that picture one more time so theycan see the cover?
I think it's awesome.
Book.
The heck is self love?
I love it.
And remember, if you're going through personalchallenges or looking to rediscover your sense
of self worth, folks like us here at AllegiantDivorce Solutions are here to support you all
(33:19):
along the way.
Visit allegiantds.com for more resources andguidance, and don't forget to subscribe to our
podcast, broke up not broken, for moreempowering discussions just like this one.
Until next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!