Episode Transcript
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Welcome back to another episode of broke up,not broken.
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I'm your host, Jamie Lima and founder of LegionDivorce Solutions, where we help people prepare
for, navigate, and recover financially fromdivorce.
This podcast is your one stop shop formastering your life and your finances
throughout the entire divorce process.
In today's episode, I have the ultimateprivilege of speaking with Lisa Johnson,
cofounder of Been There Got Out and a leadinghigh conflict divorce strategist and certified
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domestic violence advocate.
Lisa has not only navigated her own complexlegal battles, but also influenced significant
legislative changes in domestic violence law.
Today, we'll delve into her experiences andinsights on managing high conflict
relationships and the legal nuances of familycaught.
So grab a cup of coffee or your beverage ofchoice, and let's once again get you personally
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and financially empowered.
Lisa, so great to have you here with us today.
I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks, Jamie.
Yes.
Fellow New Englander too.
We we we're kinda I I grew up in roughly in thethe neck of the woods that you live right now,
so it's good to good to have someone like youon the show with us today.
And I think you're gonna have a ton of insightfor us.
A lot of the cases that we come across on thefinancial side are riddled with craziness Oh,
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wow.
To speak.
Like and and, you know, we've we've kindatalked about this on the lead in.
Everybody's marrying or married to or divorcinga narcissist.
But I know there's I know there's some sometechnical and and and definition of that word.
So I I try not to use it use it too much.
All of our clients tend to tend to bring it upin conversation.
But I I know that there are some you know,there's there's crazy, and then there's next
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level crazy when it comes to to divorce and theexperiences that so so let's talk a little bit
about that.
Yeah.
So I was thinking about, like, how does oneknow when it's a high conflict divorce versus
normal?
Because we know that at the beginningeverybody's angry and one of the things that we
noticed is that in our cases, because mypartner and I only deal exclusively with high
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conflict divorce and post judgment cases, thatthese are the ones where the anger does not
subside.
So in most divorces, everyone's angry, butgenerally four to six months in, the money is
flying out the door and you're like, all right,both of us should probably start like reining
it in, doing what's best for the kids andlooking to resolve this.
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Ours are the cases that are the opposite.
So when everyone else is around being logical,ours are the cases where our client's ex is
interested in destroying them and keeping itgoing for as long as possible.
Because once they're out of the day to dayrelationship, they're limited to three things.
We always say money, kids, and the court.
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And money and the court go hand in hand.
It's not just legal bills, but time that youtake off from work, the way it affects you
emotionally, your health sufferers.
So all of that involves money and suffering,and that's what your ex's goal is.
It's just keep it going.
As you were walking us through that, I thoughtabout my own situation and going through my own
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divorce.
So I'll share with you because I'm a I'm anopen book.
And then you can then you can dissect me.
You can, you know, you can analyze me.
Right?
Okay.
You can analyze my case.
I'll use we'll use my case study.
So when I was go when I decided I wanted adivorce, I think I mentioned it three times.
Like, I like, I think this is, like, happening.
Like so you gotta get your your head aroundthis and so on.
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So I I mentioned it, and then nothing happened.
And then then ultimate ultimately, I'm justlike, this has to happen.
Right?
And I I remember the moment where I was gettingready to leave the house, you know, not for the
last time, but, like, for the last time, so tospeak.
Mhmm.
And I and I I said, you know, like, just wanteverybody to get along.
Like, what's in the best interest of the kids?
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I want you to be okay.
Let's just sort this all out.
We'll figure like, this is like, it just has tobe this way.
And she looked me dead in the eye and said, Iwill make this as painful and as expensive as I
possibly can.
There you go.
So
alright.
It was nice having you on the show.
Not so what do you what do you do in thatsituation?
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What should I have done?
Okay.
Oh, there's a lot.
So for I mean, look.
You have to realize that people who are inabusive relationships and I'm not talking about
the obvious physical abuse because that's whatmost people think of when they think of
domestic violence.
But domestic violence involves all kinds ofother things like something called coercive
control, which includes emotional abuse,verbal, psychological, isolation, stalking,
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revenge porn, which is, you know, threateningto to publish sexual images of you if you don't
stay in the relationship or do what they want,legal abuse, all kinds of things to create a
dependency to stay in the relationship.
I saw your eyes widen.
I can't believe people actually do that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's that's what our world is.
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Like, our our community is full of people whoare stuck in these relationships.
Basically, they have their own personalterrorist.
So that person is like saying what your ex wifesaid: I am going to destroy you.
I'm going to make it as painful as possible aslong as possible.
Just because when the relationship ends there'sa difference between a typical person and
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someone who's got a true personality disorderand or addiction where they can't they don't
even have proper judgment because they're soimpaired by, again, whether it's like an
addiction or some other thing.
So if they can't even think about their ownbest interests, how can they actually consider
everything that comes with a divorce where it'snot just your money but your kids and your
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entire future?
So it makes things really, really difficult.
And what do you do?
All right.
So, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That was the question.
Okay.
So once you see that someone says somethinglike that or you get the sense like, I thought
we both wanted to move on with their lives, butthis person doesn't.
You need to make sure that you surroundyourself with professionals that really get it.
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So one of the things we talk about when you Oneof the most important people on your team is a
lawyer.
So we always say how important it is to choosethe right attorney.
So when you meet for a consult, you want tomake sure that you find someone they don't have
to be an expert in narcissism, but they have tounderstand strategy and how to approach these
cases differently.
So, for example, we think the world isgenerally logical and lawyers are logical and
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they think, Okay, you're both going to come tothe table where each person's going to do
what's fair and what's in the kid's bestinterest.
But that is not how it works with someone likeour exes because that person only cares about
themselves.
So when you meet a lawyer for the first timeand you talk about the situation with what's
happening in your relationship, you want to askthe question, How would you handle a case like
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mine?
Because you already know something is off.
It's not following the normal cadence ofdivorce where you're angry and you decide and
then it moves into resolution over time.
And so this is a two pronged question becausewhen you ask how would you handle a case like
mine with an attorney, it gives you theopportunity to see that they've actually
listened to you and understand that your caseis different.
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They cannot approach it with logic alone.
And the other thing is it gives you theopportunity to hear what strategy they use.
Because if you say, Oh, my ex is a narcissist.
Do you have experience?
They're going say, Of course I do.
I handle all divorces.
But a lot of lawyers get very fatigued by caseslike these because they don't follow the normal
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pattern.
It's crazy.
We always say that our clients belong to the,my lawyer says this is the craziest case I've
ever had club.
So it really confounds people where they'relike, why doesn't they why don't they just do
the right thing or why don't they just and itbecomes really frustrating.
So another thing that's important is somethingwe call taking strategic oversight of your
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case, which includes understanding that yoursis going to be different and that you're going
to play a much more active role.
So you are not going to be the person thatdrops $25,000 on a retainer and says, That
lawyer, you saved my life.
Like, you are going to have to be veryresponsible for understanding what's going on,
knowing what motions are being filed, gettingas much information about the financials as
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possible, like working strategically with yourlawyer where if something doesn't feel right
and you've negotiated like 8,000 times andgotten nowhere to say, You know what?
I'm not going pay for it anymore.
Like understanding you're the client, so you'rea consumer.
Like you want to spend your money wiselyinstead of just being led into things that you
see are not working.
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Where were you eight years ago?
Everybody says that.
You you just you just as you're saying all ofthis, I'm thinking about all the mistakes I
made along the way.
Yeah.
We all Which effectively propelled me intodoing this work because I'm trying to make sure
other people don't step in the same landmines.
Right?
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Yeah.
The the the the first is which is exactly whyyou do what you do.
Right?
And and number one thing that came to mind is Ididn't surround myself with the right people.
Right?
I didn't have divorce coaches.
I didn't have, like, people like you in mycorner.
I didn't have I didn't even hire a CDFA myself.
Right?
Like, I just I was a financial I've been afinancial planner for almost twenty years at
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this stage.
I was probably, you know, fourteen years intothe my career at that point.
Like, I got it.
Just math.
No problem.
Big mistake.
Right?
Hired my I I interviewed a couple attorneys,hired one that I thought was gonna be, you
know, help me help me get through this.
And, you know, god bless him.
He had to deal with her and me and all the allthe the tornado of stuff that was flying
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around.
But, you know, I probably should have askedmore questions.
Right?
And and made sure that at the end of the day,like, there was this is gonna be we were gonna
get to where we needed to be.
And and I didn't ask those questions.
And so there's there's a lot there.
And how how I guess, your like, how did you getin what was your experience like?
Okay.
Alright.
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So we've both admitted that we made mistakes,and that's what propelled us into doing the
work that we did.
I mean, mine, I was with my ex for twentyyears.
I never thought that I would get a divorce.
I was thinking logically.
I thought, Okay, it took two years to reallyget out and I'm going to hire an attorney.
I love my attorney, but one of my firstmistakes was my attorney became my best friend
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and my therapist, and I paid him $100,000 in ayear.
And that's what it took.
And, you know, he was great for certain things,but I never asked how he billed.
Every six minutes I was being billed for beinghis friend.
He definitely threw me some freebies, but Ishould have built my team of other
professionals.
Another mistake, like you said, you're afinancial planner, so you thought, Oh, I've got
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this, is we assume that because we have thatexpertise that we can handle so many things by
ourselves.
And you just can't because it's your life andit's your case and it is so emotional.
So it's important to get people we call thempositive advocates who are going to be as fair
as possible and even if they're telling youthings that you don't want to hear, they're
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thinking about what's best for your family.
So on the contrary, there's negative advocates.
And sometimes those tend to be people that welove who are like, Well, you should just get
this and she should just do that and he shouldAnd so they're kind of like contributing to the
conflict.
And lawyers can be that way too.
They're like, Let's go right to court.
Let's litigate.
We want to keep you out of court because weknow the more conflict there is, the more
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expensive it is.
But also, that bleeds onto your children if youhave children.
That's the worst thing that can happen.
So the more prolonged the conflict is and Iknow you still have to co parent till at least
they're 18, and that's a whole other story, wedeal with that, too but to lessen the amount of
money being spent to do a lot of things outsideof the courtroom And again, save yourself tons
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of money, but also become empowered along theway.
Yeah.
We I spent about the same amount of money on myown divorce.
Right?
And so I think of where all that money couldhave went as far as college savings goes and
other investments and everything else.
It's just it's a it's an absolute travesty.
And and you're you're you're absolutely right.
I mean, like, you know, not surrounding myselfwith the right people and the right advocates.
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And as you as we were starting, I was askingthat question and then you were answering it.
That was the word that came to mind.
It's like and that's what we do now in in ourworld is if we're financial advocates for most
of the clients that we work with.
We're here to help you make pragmatic andpractical decisions during divorce, not to push
the litigation along, you know, and and andmake it even more complex and more costly, but
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to help you sort it out.
And and I didn't do that.
You know, I I left I'll let my family myfamily's back on the East Coast, and I'm here
on the West Coast in California.
And, you know, I'm 47 years old, but I'm stillgonna be my I'm still my mother's baby.
Right?
And and I wasn't about to bring her in her inthose conversations and and make her life a a
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living hell and and never worry about me.
Like, and people a lot of my family members, Iwas just like, forget.
I'm gonna deal with it on my own.
They're far enough away.
They don't have to worry about the day to dayof it, and it that was a huge mistake that I
made in my own divorce, not having those thosepositive that support system.
Yeah.
So And and I'm since remarried and guess andand my family law attorney came to my wedding.
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So talk about talk about talk about building afriendship with somebody.
Right?
But it and it it was that the right thing forme to do at that time?
You know?
He's an amazing person.
Yeah.
I love him to death, and and we're friendstoday.
But had I should I have felt that way about himin that moment?
Probably not.
Yeah.
Well, we don't know because because it is suchan isolating experience, especially high
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conflict divorce versus normal divorce.
So one of the things that we do with ourclients and it's very unusual in the domestic
violence spaces, but every week on Sundays wehave our weekly legal abuse support group and
we actually combine our male and female clientstogether.
And talking about not doing it yourself, likemany of our clients are attorneys, mental
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health professionals, custody evaluators,doctors, nurses, entrepreneurs, because they
realize like, I can't do it.
And there's a level of shame that goes withthat.
Like, I should be able to do it, but you can't.
You just have to realize like this part I handover to other people to help.
And yes, certainly you can use your skills, butyou need that support.
So in the group, we basically strategize, butour clients tend they're so resourceful that
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they contribute so much to the group.
And especially they're kind and empathic andeveryone is dealing with a really difficult ex.
And having men and women together learn whatit's like from the other perspective helps them
heal faster.
And then because we do so much strategically,they do really well in family court.
So when we meet for the group, one of ourlittle traditions, and I don't oh, here it is,
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actually.
So we have this thing we call it the balloonman.
I'm not gonna blow them
but it's like
one of those used car thingies.
So when
someone has a victory or progress, we show theballoon man and we celebrate great victories
and and progress.
It's it's wonderful.
But you
do community is really Is this the fear offierce in family court group?
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Oh, yeah.
So fear to fear.
So that's a different thing.
So the support group is like one of our clientperks.
But this year, we've just released this onlineeducation program called From Fear to Fierce in
Family Court.
And so it's going to be seven different coursesand we just came out with the first one a
couple of weeks ago and that's on what we domore than anything.
We call it strategic communication, but thecourse is called How to Communicate with Your
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Without Destroying Your Case or Losing YourMind you're still dealing with that And that is
the number one thing that people's like posttraumatic stress disorder is still like, Oh my
gosh, just that ding in the inbox or like, whatwhat's what's going to happen?
Or is there more court stuff?
It's just like so learning how to communicateproperly and knowing you're probably going be
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back in court, at least for our clients, it'slike, how do I do it so that I'm ready and I'm
confident because I'm just terrified?
You know, no matter how much time has passed, alot of people still are like so scared about
communicating properly and you know, what if Ido the wrong thing and the judge is gonna take
the kids away or they're gonna think they're abetter parent and blah blah blah you know, so
it's get their their them from squattingbetween your ears.
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Evict them.
And but those are all legitimate fears that somany people have, including myself.
Yeah.
You know?
It we we are just now almost eight years afterthe divorce.
Just now getting to the point where, like,conversations are amicable.
We're all focused on the kids.
Like, things are going good.
But still, it's like that that inbox, you getthat I stopped checking my email during the day
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because every time I get a damn Gmailnotification, you'd have that little, like,
anxiety.
Right.
And and you're talking about, like, seven plusyears post divorce.
Yeah.
That's Because you never know what you're gonnaget.
You're like, okay.
What's waiting for me around that corner?
And it's it's it's just tragic.
Right.
Right.
So strategic communication is a way to turn thepower dynamic around, and it turns hearsay into
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evidence.
And it also protects people from false claimsof parental alienation, which is huge in our
world where, you know, that's another attackthey use is they weaponize children and they'll
say, Oh, you're keeping the kids from me andyou're poisoning their minds.
And so, you know, we have to make sure ourclients always present as the best co parent
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ever and make sure they're not inadvertentlysounding very like an authority or acting like
they're the main parent.
And don't realize things that they can dowithout meaning to that their ex's bully
attorney is gonna twist into something later.
Any other tips that you can share in thatregard?
Because I know that's one thing like legalbattles and high conflict and dealing with
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course of partners.
I mean, it's just it's rampant.
Yeah.
So since we're talking about saving money,like, one of the ways I saved well over a
million dollars was after my after my yearlongdivorce.
My lawyer I think it was the day we signed mylawyer said, Your ex is not going to comply.
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He's not going to listen.
Let's plan for it because you can't afford meanymore.
You've already been financially decimated.
So let's start planning for you to take care ofyourself, for you to be self represented or go
pro se.
And so I remember him saying, Okay, you know,because my kids hadn't started college yet.
And he was like, We got to start getting ready.
I was like, Oh, he hasn't participated inanything.
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I'm just going to He goes, No, no, no, You gotto make a paper trail.
Like, it doesn't matter what you think.
You just listen to me because later you'regoing to need this paper trail.
So he basically instructed me on a bunch ofthings I needed to do.
And sure enough, a year and nine months, I wasback in court.
And I spent seven years thereafter and about100 court appearances in New York and
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Connecticut representing myself.
That's where I saved, like, at least $1,000,000But the coolest thing was I mean, was bad while
it was happening, but my ex appealed fourtimes.
And to go to the appellate court level, itcosts about $15,000 to hire an attorney to make
a twenty minute case for you.
So I was like, I'm not doing that.
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I'm going to keep doing it myself.
I did it.
I won.
And the case was so notable that it gotpublished in the Connecticut Law Journal.
So now it's case law for the state, which is ahuge honor for an attorney and it's unheard of
for a pro se.
So on top of saving tons of money, I got thishuge triumph that I never imagined.
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And this is case law in in Connecticut now?
Yep.
Yeah.
It's in the Connecticut Law Journal.
Is there a name for the law?
Well, so it's it's a it's case law.
So case law is basically like you can look upthe party's name.
So it's Johnson versus Johnson.
It came out in March 2021.
Yeah.
Okay.
So if anybody wants to anybody wants to seeyour your case law
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Yeah.
I mean, it's it's like, a lot of lawyers likeit, but it's like 11 single space pages, very
dense.
But I love it.
Yeah.
Lawyer lawyers like it.
That that's incredible.
And that that's not the only claim to fame youhave.
Right?
So we have a book coming out or you the thebook already launched.
I mean, it probably is probably definitelylaunched by the time this is gonna air.
So So are we at with it?
This was the first book.
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So this is out.
This came out in 2023.
It's called Been There, Got Out, ToxicRelationships, High Conflict Divorce and How to
Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances.
And the book that's coming out later this yearis also like another Been There, Out series,
and it's called How to Handle When Your Ex isTurning the Kids Against You in court and in
life, since unfortunately that is one of themost common things we see in our community.
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And so we want people, again, like early onwhen you understand what it is and why they do
it and what to do about it in terms of legallyand especially more actively, and more
effectively with your children outside of thelegal system.
What what can you do about it legally?
Because, like, I mean, there was an element of,you know, parental alienation, you know, to nth
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degree even by, you know, my my exmother-in-law for crying out loud with with our
kids.
And every time I talked to my my attorney aboutit, it was kinda like, well, you know, we can
try.
We we I'm not really sure.
Like, what what rights do we have from a legalperspective?
So one of the so you probably heard ofsomething called the best interest factors.
Mhmm.
And so that's things that courts look at whenthey determine custody.
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And one of the most important factors is whichparent will support the child's relationship
with the other parent.
And the flip side is alienation.
Basically, is one parent attempting toundermine the child's relationship with that
other parent?
So there's six different what we callalienation factors based on a woman named
Doctor.
Amy Baker and the Baker Model that are used.
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But it's important to understand what thosefactors are.
So for example, blocking contact andcommunication is usually the one that's really
obvious.
It's like when you have a parenting plan or youhave a custody agreement and someone starts not
following it.
And they're like, Oh, you can't have the kids.
Oh, they don't feel like seeing you.
Oh, they have other activities.
That's usually the first sign legally that youwant to jump on it, where if they violate that
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parenting plan and it starts becoming habitual,you really want to get it before a judge right
away and nip it in the bud because sometimespeople wait and they don't realize and they're
like, oh.
And then a judge is like, why did you wait ninemonths before bringing this to our attention?
Like, did you agree that this was okay?
So that's one thing legally that you have a lotof clout.
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Like someone's violating that parenting plan,that's the law.
And a lot of times people will say, oh well mykids didn't want to go.
And, you know, you have to think about what thekids want without realizing, like, that's the
law.
If your kids don't want to go to school, youcan't just be like, well, they don't want to
go.
You know, it's very serious to to not follow aparenting plan.
I never would have went to school.
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Know.
It brings me back to the old days when I know,we wake up in the morning and look and see if
our school is closed, a little crawl that goeson the bottom of the screen snow days.
I got a snow snow days are good good times.
Good times.
Yep.
Yeah.
This is what I would like to call the the carteblanche segment of our our conversation.
(23:34):
So we've we've covered a lot in a very smallamount of time, short amount of time here, but
I I think it's it's really, really powerful.
A lot of the stuff that you've you've broughtto light and and reminded us of because so many
of us are going through or have gone throughthat experience.
And if you're going through it now, I'm I'm I Ican sympathize with you.
I can't empathize because I don't know yourexact situation, but I've you know, a lot of
(23:55):
we've all been in that position in somerespect.
So what are there any questions that I didn'task or anything you wanna share with listeners
that might be beneficial for them in thisparticular space, whether it be on the
financial side or whether it be on theunfortunate violence side of the equation?
I mean okay.
So I think a a lot of people in this situationthey always feel like it's just them and they
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can't talk to anybody about it.
And I think with people who have money or aresuccessful, they think like they feel really
stupid for getting involved in one of theserelationships like these.
I know our clients tend to be like verysuccessful and so often they're looked upon as
role models of the community or within theirfamilies and people will say things that are
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really hurtful like, Well, I never thought thatyou'd fall someone like that.
Or like, Well, why doesn't the judge just dothis?
Or what?
And so people tend to clam up because they feellike, you know, again, there's that added level
of shame.
So I think it's important to make sure youconnect with other people, like a community
like what we have, who really, reallyunderstand and also know that instead of
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beating yourself up for being in one of theserelationships, which affects one in three women
and one in five men on average, that's a lot ofpeople that realize they were drawn to you
because of how successful and responsible andcreative and amazing you are.
We always call our people like the shiningstars.
We say we work with the best clients becauseall of them were targets of a manipulative con
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artist who picked them because they made thatperson look good.
So please try not to, like, have that shame andfeel like there's something wrong with you.
It's the opposite.
It's that you were so great that that's why youwere a target.
And then also think about how, you know, peoplein these situations, we tend to think we can
take care of everything ourselves and, youknow, we're used to shouldering that burden.
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A lot of that comes from being in thatrelationship and tolerating a lot for a long
time.
But this is a time to now ask for help, andit's important to connect with others, like I
just keep reiterating, who really understand itbecause that's going to affect your confidence,
which is going to affect everything movingforward.
And if you have children, the best thing youcan do is take care of yourself and get that
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support because then your kids won't feelresponsible for you.
They won't feel like they have to take care ofyou.
So it's so important to get help during a timelike this.
It's you're gonna be stopping intergenerationaltrauma by taking care of yourself.
That is pretty powerful.
And that was one of the things that I, youknow, I too, you know, let fall by the wayside
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during my own divorce, which was, you know,like, was I was running, like, 50 or 70 miles a
week, super fit, and you just this, you know,hit me like a a freight train in many ways, and
you're just trying to keep it all together.
And there was no way I was gonna be able I hadthat energy to be able to do that any longer.
And it ran and just, you know, in many ways,you know, it affected my health.
And Yeah.
It's now taking me, you know, years to get toback the point where it's like, alright.
(27:02):
I feel feel feel overall much better.
But sometime that some of that damage is, youknow, you can't see that damage that's been
done and and stress and anxiety and Yeah.
You supposed to nice.
Right?
From years ago.
Like, you look like a different person
Yeah.
Going through that.
Yeah.
It's it's pretty, pretty, pretty sad to behonest.
(27:23):
And, you know, and that's the thing, like, youmade an amazing point, which is, you know,
those shining stars.
Right?
The the the reason why people are shining starsis because they've they've got it all together
and they've they've in many ways, they'vethey've figured it out and they're hard workers
and they're experienced and they're excellingand they're doing all these amazing things.
And then something like this happens and it'seasy to get be like, well, it is a little bit
(27:44):
of impostor syndrome in many ways.
Like, am I really that person if I can if I canfail in this area?
Yeah.
But, you know, I that's why people like thatare called energy vampires.
And so it's important to remember that eventhough you feel awful now and terrifying and
overwhelming, like, you still have the skillsand the core of who you were in the past and
(28:06):
you've lost it, but you're not going to get itback.
You're going to be a better version.
It's because you're going to be different, butyou have to make sure you get the right
support.
But you're going to it's going to be so muchbetter.
It's so scary right now, but it gets so muchbetter.
And I'm speaking to you from the other side.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Ten plus years out, I met the love of my life.
(28:26):
He's the male.
Half have been there, got out.
You know, found an amazing career, like myteaching skills, which had to be on hold for so
long.
And then I'm, you know, spending all this timerepresenting myself in court and suffering
through it.
I'm like, this is amazing, actually.
Like, I got my best education in the trenches.
We don't have any competitors with what we doexactly.
So, you know, you don't realize what thepurpose is until after.
(28:50):
I would concur.
You know, I think that's like I have a new anew purpose in my life and and at least on
this, you know, the second phase of my career,so to speak.
And I'm I'm super happy about the opportunity,and, we're gonna be doing some amazing things
coming down the pike here, you know, on the onthe divorce planning side.
So I think that's gonna be really cool.
And you're absolutely right.
It's like sometimes you're suffer through it toget through the, you know, to the other side
(29:12):
and and really be able to enjoy it.
So hopefully hopefully, that'll be the case forboth of us.
So thanks so much for all of your time today.
It went by quick.
That was a quick thirty minutes here.
We can keep going because I know this is a hottopic, but I want to be respectful of your time
and our listeners as well.
So thanks so much for joining us today.
My pleasure.
And you want to you want to plug the book onemore time before I roll us out of here?
(29:33):
Sure.
Okay.
So the book that's already out, it's calledBeen There, Got Out, Toxic Relationships, High
Conflict Divorce and How to Stay Sane UnderInsane Circumstances.
It's on Amazon and it's really easy to find usin general.
Just look up Been There, Out website, socialmedia, podcast, YouTube channel.
And if it resonates with you, just get intouch.
(29:56):
Amazing.
I'm gonna follow you as soon as we hang up heretoday.
So thank you so much again for joining us todayand sharing your invaluable expertise and
personal experiences.
For our listeners who wish to connect with Lisaor learn more about her work, again, please
follow Ben There Got Out on social media andcheck out their other resources online.
Remember, if you're facing challenges in a highconflict divorce or custody situation, we at
(30:18):
Allegiant Divorce Solutions can help you aswell.
We can also get you in touch with Lisa if needbe, and we're we're all here to help.
So visit allegiantds.com for more resources andexpert guidance, and don't forget to subscribe
to our podcast for more empowering discussionsjust like this.
Until next time.