Episode 75: Meet CASP's Newest Board Member Dr. Rachel Taylor

Episode Transcript
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Jonathan (00:30):
My guest today is Dr.
Rachel Taylor.
Dr.
Taylor supported individualsdiagnosed with
neurodevelopmental disorders formore than 20 years.
She serves as a CASP boardmember, member of the Scientific
Council for the Organization forAutism Research, and as an
advisor to the Cambridge Centerfor Behavioral Studies.
She's a founder and former CEOfor the Center for Applied
Behavior Analysis, CABA and is asenior consultant with CABA

(00:55):
Consulting.
Rachel, welcome to the pod.

Rachel Taylor (00:57):
Thank you for having me here.

Jonathan (01:00):
it is my honor and pleasure to have you.
And gosh, I wanna know all aboutyour CABA journey and, like
maybe most specific, like whenwas the moment you knew you
wanted to start a new a b aorganization?

You know, I always imagine like how
absurdly, ridiculously wide, therange probably is on answers
that someone in my role can giveto this question.
Right?
And at the same time, I'mthinking we all probably have
like a pretty common consistenttheme, which is the moment that
I really thought I was going toand totally didn't think I was
going to.
Right.
I'm a weird one though.

(01:33):
So I have a bit of a odd historyin aba.
Let me start by explaining that,uh, I did not launch CABA until,
I think it was more than adecade after I defended my
dissertation in behavioralanalysis.
So right there is a bit of anodd background, uh, and that
that means I had my master'sdegree and my B C B A for a
really long time and I hadfloated around in different,

(01:57):
fortunate for me, differentamazing positions that crossed
from academia through clinicalpractice and research.
And the part of my story and apersonal part that's odd is, uh,
I was nursing my son in my armsat my doctoral defense, no joke,
to the point where when thecommittee goes back in the room
and gets to discuss whether ornot you're a doctor and they

(02:17):
make you wait outside, like inthe movies and then they come
out and say, Now when they cameout, I had to say, I'm sorry,
I'm gonna need you to wait cuz Iwas still nursing because they'd
had me in there for so long.
Like, I still remember this,right?
I tell this because it was sevenyears later that my son was
diagnosed and my husband, at thetime, which is not his father,

(02:38):
was the, stay-at-home dad.
And oddly enough, he is not a BC B A and he was the first when
I would come home from work andmy son had been in sessions to
say, I don't think this is whatshould be going on.
Like I don't, they're notseeming to work on the goals
that are what we need right now.
And hasn't everyone told you to,you know, start an ABA company

(03:00):
So I was first trying to explainto him that, uh, no, you don't
go from being the director ofresearch for card and being the
founding department chair of aPhD program to opening an A B H.
Boy was he right?
He, he kept every day saying, weknow how to do this better.
And a lot of my former gradstudents were increasingly

(03:20):
getting frustrated at theiragencies and, and feeling like
they weren't getting the supportthey needed.
And, and I think they alltrusted that, uh, I would bring
an academic model to theclinical practice.
so a lot of my former studentswere ready to wanna start with
us too.
So we were in a great positionto.
Say, all right, let's go for it.
And honestly, a lot of peopledon't know.
CABA was, uh, supposed to be asocial skills group in my small

(03:42):
town in California and that wasgonna be it.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh, we have four offices, uh,three with physical locations.
250 staff, I think 27 BCBAs andseven different service lines,
including four community livinghomes.
So, it's not what we expectedeight years later, but I know
that part of the story soundsvery familiar, uh, and is ironic

(04:03):
cuz I was, focused on the don'tgrow too big, too fast.
And in my defense, we turneddown like a dozen homes.
We turned down several locationsand our locations all open based
on a very personal connection ofmine, either professionally, um,
or academically.
That was in one was NorthernCalifornia, same with Central

(04:24):
California.
And called and said we'd like.
CABA to be here primarily cuzCABA offers services across
ages, which is not as unique nowas it was eight years ago, which
I'm excited about cuz I didn'twanna be the only, uh, adult
provider.
but we, we support children aswell.

Jonathan (04:38):
well, I have to first reflect on something.
So my wife is a lactationconsultant, so she is yelling
right now.
You go girl.
She's a passionate advocate

about that and I knew that

Jonathan (04:48):
I love it.
I love it.
I love it so much.
And yes, defending dissertationwhile nursing high five sister,
that's sick.
But you know, this idea of weknow how to do this better.
That's such the archetypal, likeentrepreneurial journey, is it?
It feels like that to me.
And it speaks like the passionand like extreme commitment to

(05:09):
everything that's gonna happento you, like becoming an
entrepreneur and growing anorganization.
All the challenges you face,that sounds like an amazing,
seed to the organization.
But I'm curious, what's been themost challenging part of your
CABA journey and that, that youwould not have anticipated going
into it?

before I jump right into that, you know, I ha
I'll, I'll say, and although Ilove the women empowerment
moment, and now I'm about to sayI couldn't have done it without
my husband, and that's real.
So I wanna clarify that, so Iwas a professor.
and I, I advised a lot of peoplewho own amazing companies,
actually, when we launched theprogram that I taught in
Southern California, it was amodel that was designed for

(05:44):
full-time working people.
So a lot of former students thatI had known in a master's
program had started successfulcompanies down here.
And when the school approachedme to ask me to help them start
the program and don't let meforget, I'll get back to the
most challenging part.
But you made me think of it.
And I wanna say this partbecause.
I know there's a lot ofentrepreneurs and you have the
C-suite kind of audience here.

(06:05):
And you know, at the time theschool said, we wanna start this
program.
Who do you think would wanna bein a PhD program?
And, and I said, incredibly wellestablished agency owners that
have a master's degree andthey're not gonna wanna move to
Kalamazoo right now.
They're not gonna go to Floridaright now, so we're gonna need
to design this as a, a weekendonly model.

(06:25):
So I, I wanna say as well thatit's not just that my experience
across all those positions putme in a better position later in
life to.
Be as successful as we were inthe last eight years.
It's that I was learning fromstudents that were owning and
operating agencies when I was aprofessor.
and I'll be honest, the onesthat were successful were the
ones that were partnered withpeople who had formal business

(06:46):
training and a businessbackground.
And I think that's what mymoment that I, well go back to
saying I'm yay, go, go BIM in.
And I did it.
And at the same time, my husbandwas in the finance world, my
husband was in real estate, andI, I always said to people, they
say, why don't you start yourown company?
I'm like, the farthest I can godown the finance route.
And it's actually very helpful.
Now I'm about to make this jokeis a major focus of my own work

(07:09):
in grad school was behavioraleconomics.
so I can engage in the dialogue,you know, to say the least.
Um, and my pre-doc work was atJohns Hopkins and or Kennedy
Krieger.
Really not formal pre-doc, butbefore I went to my PhD program.
So, The notion of values-basedcare and the medical model.
I've been in that since 1999.
You know, so I'm not saying thatI didn't have unique things, but

(07:31):
if I didn't have my husband whohad that viewpoint, we wouldn't
have made it.
And it's especially now with themassive change in the way
finance operates within ourworld.
So I just wanna clarify that.
on that note, uh, mostchallenging thing, I don't wanna
make it a pandemic heavy talk,you know, but it, it is, and I,
I wanna come up with like a,we're in this, you know, three

(07:53):
year mark, right?
So I feel like I need to pivotthe conversation cause we can
all move.
No, that's just, that's it.
Bottom line.
Bottom line.
Why for us though, and I becamea, a little bit of a, a semi
YouTube, not star in our field.
Star means you get like athousand views, right?
transition to telehealth.
We called it because I waspanicked when covid hit for

(08:14):
CABA.
And within our field, there wasa lot of debate about that,
which defined an essentialworker.
Um, it was next level for usbecause there was no option.
There was no, we're gonna cancelsession the homes that we
operate are through the state ofCalifornia, the d d s system and
the regional center system.

(08:34):
These are not private communityhomes where we can tell the
families, sorry, if you comewanna come visit your
individual, you can't bring themback.
Which is what a lot of communityliving homes had to move to
those policies in that firstthree to six months.
And there was nowhere.
And then a few weeks into it,then the beginnings of the fear
of having staff.

(08:56):
And at one point I rememberthinking, How does this work?
Do we call in the NationalGuard?
there's no one but me and myhusband and my brother, and it's
two dozen, couple more thanthat.
BCBAs and.
Anyway, that, so there's thedrama moment for you.
I mean, that would be handsdown, the biggest challenge, the
most unexpected, the mostterrifying, you know, and I
still here now, sitting herethree years later, have have no

(09:18):
idea how we got through it.
And the transition to telehealthwas me putting out videos
panicking, just like, everyonetake a moment and let's make
sure that we remember the workwe're supposed.
And I was actually just talkingto our team cuz we hadn't even
really had a strong virtualpresence with each other to that
point.
So that was challenging too.
We really built ourselves as abrick and mortar company.

(09:38):
I, I said that earlier, I'm anold school academic girl.
If I'm gonna have everyone withtheir advisor, we all need our
nice little offices so that partof going through it, so the
YouTube was just, cuz I didn'teven know how to share a video,
so I opened it again and thensuddenly other people started
watching.
And it's really funny when yougo back and, and I'm like in my
backyard, like talking to thesupervisors, Yeah, so I'll flip

(09:59):
that and say I think the bestwas looking back and being like,
and we got through that, youknow?
Um, and here we are, although Istill dunno if we're getting
through it to be frank, butright now I can still say with
full confidence that uh, we haveno staff furloughs, no one had
a, a decrease in pay.
Anyone that was with us thewhole time makes more now than
they did before.
my husband and I went to minimumwage for, I black out for how

(10:19):
long, but, you know, so therewas tough decisions in that
process to stay a family ownedand operated company.
But my brother had a restaurantbackground, uh, actually
hospitality and I should saybigger than restaurants, but,
uh, the, the restaurants I thinkof is, I, he was no joke in like
back alleys in downtown LAcalling his old friends to get

(10:41):
us p p e.
And we were like in the front ofthe line because we're like
convenient restaurant staffhave.
Gloves and it was really like,go call those guys cuz we're in
it.
if I come up with a sexier storysomeday have me back on and
I'll, I'll stop being sopandemic focused, but it's still
with us, you know, every day.

Jonathan (10:59):
We, you know, you've, you've struck a nerve cuz we're
recording this episode almostexactly three years to the day
that the world shut down.
And, you know, I don't thinkI've ever shared this on the
pod, but this question ofessential worker, I mean, you
brought that back so vividly andyou know what my experience was
Rachel.
We were, um, you know, just likeeveryone, we were like, what the

(11:19):
heck's going on?
should we even continueservices?
Should this organization exist?
And, um, our decision pointbecame easy.
When we just asked our families,what do you want?
Right?
And I think we had 10% of our,our families decided to take a
break.
Many of them ended up comingback.

(11:39):
All the rest said, we need youmore now than ever with the
world shut down and school shutdown.
So it was a simple decision.
So on the one hand, Rachel,like, we're hearing this
feedback from our families, andon the other hand, there, there
were debates in our field aboutwhether or not we were essential
workers.
And this felt like a freakingcrucible are we in medical
necessity?
Right?
Like, and, and it's clear we'remedical necessity.

(12:01):
And so I, but that was adichotomy.

here's where you see where I'm not your typical
agency owner.
How far are we in?
And I'm gonna be a total dork.
Where did my head go?
Listening to you.
I'm like, I wish we had aresearch protocol in place.
Your numbers, that's fascinatingthat I will, it's an empirical
question.
But we weren't in a position toask some of our families.
We weren't, to be frank, I can'teven, I'm, I think that was our

(12:25):
protocol.
Uh, Across the service linesthat was not initially, but I,
you just blew my mind on the10%.
And my why I said I wish therewas a research protocol is, and
I knocked on wood.
I don't wanna put this out inthe world, but if this happens
again, um, uh, can everyoneplease do what Jonathan said so
we can get numbers on thepercentage of families?
I'm thinking your numbers mightnot reflect if a lot of other

(12:47):
organizations have done this.
And again, it's an empiricalquestion, but I would argue that
if we were to dig into morequestions as to why your
families said yes, that that wasfully representative of a, what,
what a fascinating treatmentsatisfaction measure you just
did.
Like, you know, like in theweirdest conditions, right?
Like, it's like if we could dolike an analog, it would be

(13:08):
really jacked up, right?
Like, how do we make the thingas messed up as possible and
say, do you still want us?
Anyway, sorry.
That's amazing.
That speaks volumes of the workthat you do.
I think so.
Cool.
So anyway.
Yeah, no, it is, it's uh, threeyears to the day and.
That for me is super salientbecause, uh, as many people
know, I was the conference chairfor the second largest, ABA
conference in the world Calabaand we were onsite, uh, last

(13:32):
week, three years ago, andunfortunately had to shut down
onsite.
So, yeah.
Uh, I'm with you.
It brings back a lot ofstimulus, stimulus pairings as
us dorks say, you know, but

Jonathan (13:43):
Well, it's this whole idea, you know, one of my
favorite books is The MessyMiddle by Scott Belski, who
talks about how inentrepreneurship, like the
beginnings and the ends andtransitions are all celebrated.
No one celebrates the hard workthat happens day to day.
And yes, a pandemic is maybe onone end of the spectrum of hard
work, but that's a great exampleof how you are forced constantly

(14:03):
as an entrepreneur, as abusiness owner to evolve your
service or product offering andmake sure you're listening to
your, your clients andeverything that comes with it.
But I want to ask you, Rachel, Ithink it was last year, you
deliberately chose to hand overthe CEO reigns, um, and that
takes extraordinary intention.
Tell me more about why you madethat decision.

Yeah.
And I, and I love your language,Jonathan.
I have to say that you justsaid, stood out to me the, uh,
extraordinary intention and, youknow, I, all right, I'll go back
to that.
If, if it makes sense for metoo, if, if not, then remind me
to save it for a total analyticGeek Fest podcast.
All right.
Because it is a fascinatingconcept, right?
But, uh, you know, the story'smulti-faceted.
Uh, so yes, I stepped down inSpring as CEO, and, we are

(14:47):
officially eight years.
I always forget, so, andinterestingly, so that means
when Covid hit, we were at thatcrucial five-year marker, um, of
really where most small ownedfamily and operated companies
are gonna make it or break it,and, So it was a couple
different things.
We did need to go through areorg, so as many did, uh, in

(15:08):
terms of, as I just mentioned toyou, coming out of brick and
mortar, getting through,transitioning the format of
services, et cetera, that listcould go on and on.
and keeping an eye on how bestto stay sustainable.
I mean, just bottom line andrealizing, all right, some
decisions need to be made nowthat there were certain
departments that we haddeveloped when we thought we

(15:28):
were gonna be primarily onground So certain departments we
realized weren't functional inthe structure that we had now
that had really naturally comeout of the last three years in
the processes.
And so we dissolved thosedepartments and as I mentioned
earlier, we were thrilled to bein a position to.
To be offering the people whowere running those departments,
uh, a lateral type move, so thatthere was no pay change, and it

(15:50):
was similar type of work, but itwas a title change.
So in the process we decidedthat the notion of having
directors and assistantdirectors didn't work.
And it was really thedepartments that drove that.
We had a training department andwe now have that more infused in
our work throughout.
So we didn't, it made no senseto have that standalone.
We had a systems developmentdepartment and needless to say,

(16:10):
that definitely is now infusedthroughout everything.
We did not need a standalonefancy systems development
department.
But those two directors werephenomenal and they hadn't even
been functioning in those rolesfor the two and a half years of
the pandemic.
So it all made sense, but weknew that that was still going
ruffle feathers.
Uh, cause some potentialdiscontent, no matter how

(16:30):
strategic we were about it, nomatter how much intention we
had.
So, I will fully admit, and Isaid it then, that me, this is
one part of it.
So me saying, okay, we are doingthis.
We are changing people'spositions.
this is part of my investment inthis for everyone to see that
this is makes sense too.
When you looked at itfunctionally and we really
analyzed what had beenhappening.

(16:51):
My husband had, had functionallybecome the ceo.
And so that's a little bitdifferent there too.
It doesn't, even if you're notmarried to the person, I, I
actually, I should Yeah.
Change that.
I'm sure other organizationswent through this where I.
Regardless of spouse status thatsomeone else ended up taking on
different roles when just evenjust, you had to be in different
meetings.
I mean, as silly as that soundslike, that it wasn't something

(17:13):
you just had to be, cuz yousuddenly were facing all these
different legal considerationsand retention issues and whole
new world.
So functionally he had beenfunctioning like that and I
think us coming out of the gateand saying, yeah, I love this
title.
Yeah.
It meant a lot to me that Istarted this organization and,
but no, I'm not doing that roleand there's someone who could be

(17:34):
doing it better.
That was part of it.
Now the bigger part of it thoughis, and I'm so thrilled now to
answer this question, versusfive months ago was, because I
didn't know if it was gonnawork, and I think it has, I
switched to a consultant role,so I didn't just step down and
not just, that sounds terrible,but I could have stepped down

(17:54):
and said, okay, now I'm yourchief clinical officer, or Now
I'm your people officer, orwhatever.
No, I became a consultant andwe, we made very strategic legal
decisions around that.
I am the owner, I'm the majorityowner still, but because of that
fact, we had to make sure that Ido not have decision making
power.
The interesting part of thestory is it, it took, uh, a
couple of months and I didn'tanticipate it for, uh, I think

(18:16):
some of our team members tobelieve that, and it couldn't
have been better.
It was like out of a movie.
I'd be in a meeting likesometime in the summer and one
of them would be like, well,Rachel, and they would tell me
some like massive thing, butthey would jump right into it
and I would be like, oh, holdon.
Because they could tell meanything.
I'm the consultant team, knewthat they can tell me anything.
Exec can't.
Right?
But I'm there to support theseguys and my job is to then go

(18:37):
back to senior exec and tellthem what I think needs to
happen.
And so this huge thing wouldcome up and I'd be like, oh
wait, okay.
Hold on.
I no idea what you're talkingabout.
And, but you don't know this.
And I should have anticipatedit, right?
Because it is my husband and mybrother that they wouldn't
believe us.
But I think there was a momentthat I think I got a little,
I'll be honest, a little fussy,But, uh, you know, I had to

(18:58):
kinda get past that.
so that's my badly way oftelling you the intention was am
I going to be able to make abigger contribution to the
shenanigans, uh, that arecontinuing to happen by really
being Not a neutral voice, but aguiding voice.
Right?
A consultant's not neutral,right?
but someone who can communicatewith a hands off kind of way

(19:20):
here.
Because ultimately I, I don'thave the ultimate decision.
And it, and it worked, I thinkamazing across both groups.
The, I already, I feel, I hopehad the trust and the support of
the staff members at work for,with a long time, but it got
better.
And senior exec as well.
Like I even hear other membersof senior execs sometimes joking
like, well, I don't know you'regonna, they're not joking,
they're serious.
They're like, talk to herconsultant about it.

(19:42):
And then she's pretty good atthat job, you know?
And my other joke is it's reallytough being a consultant for
this company cuz that last CEOtotally screwed it.
But I am in, then that's thethird part.
So one being functionally how ithelps the reorg, and I won't say
buy-in, it's more than that,but, uh, but globally, two, how
it positioned me to help.

(20:04):
Further operations, juststraight up effective
communication, issues.
Um, and then third is, is is myown emotionality and, and
stress.
Everyone asks me, you know, oh,so you work less now?
And I'm happy that if, uh,another exec member or
management member even overhearsthat they'll even jump in and
go, Nope, she's working more.
And I'm like, thank you, cuz Idon't wanna be the one who's in.

(20:25):
But now I, I'm working more.
But it's the whole, you know,working smarter, harder, all of
that.
It's, it's really though the, itit's the emotional toll of it.
I'm, I'm less just completelyfreaked out coming into every
conversation.
I can take it in better andstand back and I thought I had
had that under control.
But believe me, when you, whenyou flip roles and you're really
in it on the opposite, yet youfind yourself identifying way

(20:47):
more moments that would've gonedifferently.

Jonathan (20:49):
Rachel, that's energizing.
And I want listeners to take tworeally critical things away from
this.
Number one is your selflessnessand self-awareness as a leader
to always put the mission of theorganization first.
That's clearly what I heard aspart of this is, you know,
everything at the end of the dayis about your mission and
clients and your team members.
Um, and it sounds like you arethe one to raise your hand to

(21:12):
say, yep, this reorg makessense.
But number two.
Every organization as you grow.
there's this mnemonic out therelike when you double or triple
in size, like everything breaks,right?
So you're constantly having tore-envision what your
organization looks like.
And this is especially true inABA because there's so much
need, so many providers are justgrowing and it's like up and to

(21:33):
the right, right?
If you were to look at a graphon this and the ability to say,
what does the structure of thisorganization need to look like
in our next leg of the journeyto best fulfill our mission is
just like super powerful.
Did that take a while to cometo, is this something that you
all have been talking about ordid it kind of like come to a
head and say, this feelsnatural.

thank you.
I appreciate everything.
Thank you, John.
Well, a couple things.
The behavior analyst in me hasto, not push back on your
complement, but acknowledge thatI am the owner.
So, as, as much as I appreciatethe mission first and the
selflessness first, you know,obviously there's a different
drive there, right?
So I just wanna acknowledge thatI, I recognize that.
Funny you say this, and I, Ikeep meaning to look up the

(22:14):
term.
Um, so I was a consultant.
When I was a professor, as Imentioned earlier, that program,
a lot of the students wereworking for local agencies and
so they would be telling theirCEOs, there's this crazy fast
talking professor who I thinkcan help X, Y, and Z.
And so I had a side consultinggig years ago and went into a
lot of companies in California.

(22:35):
And, uh, one in particular, thestory is out there a lot, so I
won't tell it again, but it wasa, a large scale company that
was a floor time agency and theywere, uh, transitioning to aba.
It's a, a long story, but um, anamazing process to come into as
a consultant.
And, that owner hired a verytraditional chief operating
officer, this phenomenal woman.

(22:56):
She graduated from Berkeley.
I think she'd been with likeGuitar Center or something, or
maybe a House of Blues orsomething.
I mean, just amazing hardcorebusiness woman.
And I still remember to thisday, and this is like 10, 12
years ago, and my job was tocome in and do I do systems
level work So it's not just onthe clinical side.
especially cuz they were, theywere changing their, their
clinical structure.

(23:16):
So then that required having tochange those positions as well.
Right.
So, and the requirements and abillable and the training and
everything, but from the systemslevel, and they were growing
quickly.
Uh, that's why I finally steppedaway from both academia and
helping others is I realizedevery organization I went into,
I'd be like, I'm doing it.
I'm disseminating good work, I'mgreat.
And I think I did, but then I'mlike, and I just helped you.

(23:38):
Quadruple in size, like in twoyears.
And I didn't mean to, like, Ididn't, I mean, there's pros and
cons to that.
I'm not anti quick growth, butmore often than not, what I saw
was the quality go down and, andfrustrations increase.
And people feel like they signedon for something that they
weren't promised.
And I sometimes was the one thatthey put out there as the show
pony to promise it.
So it was a little like, youknow, this woman came in and

(24:01):
this was my last gig I guess.
And so I had learned at thispoint what the story I just
mentioned two seconds ago.
So I wanted to protect that, butI knew we had to move quickly.
I could feel the push coming andI guess I was doing similar work
like this.
So in a moment, I'll tell youwhere it came from, I think.
But, uh, funny you said thatbecause.
She came in my office one dayand she sat down and she had
started like six weeks earlier.

(24:22):
She's like, do you have aminute?
And I said, yeah.
And she goes, I've been watchingyou.
And we were prepping for aretreat.
So I had them get on a cycle.
I'm like, you're gonna need todo a retreat every three to four
months.
I know how much it's gonna cost.
You gotta get all these guys inthe room for two days at a time.
I will build it out.
So we did like a miniconference, like for the two
years of this transition, and webroke down admin and clinical
and we're like, we got it.

(24:44):
And I just, that's how we wouldgo.
And she, she called it likedynamics.
You have the people who listenand you're the business person.
So there's a term, this was like12 years ago and I never looked
up the publications, but I, Iremember the word dynamic in
there and she was labeling itlike, I could kind of hear the
entrepreneurial journals or the.
Whatever C-suite journalist thatI knew nothing about and she and

(25:04):
all my, like jm, not even Java.
Okay.
The journal experimentalanalysis is up on my wall as
she's talking to me.
Not even applied.
Alright.
Like the full volumes.
Alright.
And she's like talking to me andshe's like, so there's this
whole thing.
Cuz what most people do is theyhave a strategic plan and when
problems are popping up, they'llidentify them, but then they're
gonna slate them for, they can'tdo that until they're Q3 or

(25:25):
they're Q and she's like tryingto tell me how amazing it is
that I'm coming in and Jonathan,what am I doing?
I'm observing human behavior andidentifying the environmental
variables that are contributingto.
What we want or not what wewant.
And I am, funny enough, I'malmost engaging in like grad
school style research labs.
By the way.

(25:45):
I'm putting meeting structuresin by having people come in and
identify, these are the markersthat we've seen this week.
And not just, we're goingthrough our finance reports and
da da da, but performance and I,so I think I'm not familiar with
that.
I don't feel like I studied orlearned it.
I think I'm a trained behavioranalyst and, and my training is

(26:05):
unique in that I, I am nottrained in, in autism.
I mean I am, but meaning mydegree's not in autism, my
degree's not in aba, right?
Am I PhDs in a psychology withan emphasis in behavioral
analysis?
And that means that I have equaltraining across human and
non-human behavior, right?
And regardless of thepopulation, including
organizational behaviormanagement, so I, I have to give

(26:27):
a shout out to you and r thereare few grad programs that have
a very strong track in, in OBM.
So I did learn from amazingpeople early on, but I had no
idea sitting in a class aboutAbernathy or about whoever
insert om leader here was anydifferent than my FBA class.
I mean, I knew we were talkingabout employee performance in

(26:47):
the one class, and I was talkingabout.
An individual self-injury.
Like I'm not saying I wasmissing that.
Right.
But, so I think it's thattraining, you know, and I, and
I, I think you're seeing thatmerge more and more now you have
a, uh, I was just telling you, Ihad lunch with Melissa Nok,
who's the deputy executiveOfficer, the B A C B, and if
you're connected with her onLinkedIn, you'll see she's at a

(27:09):
conference right now forassessors, I believe.
Not in behavioral analysis, likegeneral assessment.
And, uh, she also just earned anew HR certificate and we're
talking, and she's like, Rachel,it's like amazing.
If you go into theseorganizations and you listen,
they're talking about risk andthey're talking about human
behavior, they're, I'm like,yes.
So, so, but I think that's wherewe get ourselves in trouble too,

(27:29):
right?
It's the, I know this, it'sbehavioral analysis, so I don't
do that either.
but I will have no problemacknowledging that my expertise
is observing human behavior and,and environmental conditions and
identifying.
What needs to change.
I don't mean to simplify it thatmuch, but that's the foundation
of ada.
It's not discreet trial or, orconducting a preference
assessment or getting anauthorization.
It's understanding why humansthink, feel, and behave and act

(27:53):
as they do, and under whatconditions they're more or less
likely to do it.
And fortunately, that baseknowledge has helped millions
and millions of autisticindividuals.
That's great.
It also has helped with trillsand billions of drug addicts and
totally typical humans andanyone who's behaving, acting,
thinking and feeling.

Jonathan (28:12):
I, um, I wanna come back to something you, you
talked about, um, you were thefounder of the Los Angeles
campus of the Chicago School of

Yeah.

Jonathan (28:22):
Uh, which as I understand is the only PhD
program in ABA in Los Angeleswhat are you most proud of from
that experience?

You know, uh, I am most proud of the fact that I
just walked out of a bathroomstall and was washing my hands
and someone yelled out, that'smy most favorite professor.
I know that's awkward, butseriously, and that in the
moment someone else at anotherstall said, is Rachel Taylor in
here?
Like, it was a really funny, andwhen that person came out, it's
a very famous professor, and Isaid, I didn't even talk yet.

(28:52):
How did you.
There's a ridiculous number ofprofessors here.
How did you know that person wastaught?
It's not that I was thefavorite.
It, that it, the way they wordedthat was my favorite.
They did some sentence that madeit clear that I'm no longer a
professor.
Uh, and so yeah, this is whereI'll come back to the love of
our very small, no longer small.
And a bunch of us are saying,it's like we're right in the

(29:12):
brink of it.
Now we're five, 10 years fromnow, they're the crew that we
all used to know each other arelike, who is that?
Like, what do I care?
And that's fine.
Like it's not needed to do goodwork that we all know each other
like we used to.
But um, I will say though, it,it's nice to see that follow
through, um, in that, thatcommunity and that that's there
in academia.
I am seeing that now in autismservices.

(29:33):
Right?
That wasn't like that before.
It wasn't like everyone from themajor places were all hanging
out with each other outside ofa.
A conference.
And even if they were, they, thepeople that were there were
there for their researchprotocols primarily.
There wasn't as much of apractitioner focus.
So you weren't even reallyhaving the opportunity to sit
down with another agency andtalk a, you had the opportunity,

(29:57):
but you were gonna talk aboutyour research protocols.
So anyway, my most proud thingfrom starting in and it, I
didn't launch the whole campus,just the ABA department, was
being able to, to bring theopportunity to the people I
mentioned earlier that, that Iknow wanted that PhD.
And I, and it's so differentnow.
You don't, you don't need itright.
Functionally.
Right.
You don't.

(30:17):
And I know a lot of professorsthat'll openly tell their
students, you're gonna spendanother$50,000 and you're gonna
possibly make just as much moneyas someone with a master's
degree.
Right.
And even our old spiel of, theonly reason to get the PhD is if
you wanna be a professor, cuzyou don't even need that
anymore.
In a lot of places that youteach now you can teach with the

(30:37):
master's degree level, but.
That for me.
And actually one of the CABAemployees, everyone was laughing
at me this weekend.
They're like, you're the onlyagency owner that throws a
dinner with 25 employees and,and you're all cheering that
someone just got accepted to agraduate program this fall and
they're leaving CABA.
You just threw like a wholedinner and a party.
I'm like, well, the dinner inthe party was for all the

(30:58):
employees.
I will admit that.
They're like, but that, they'relike, but your speech on, like
celebrating this person.
So it's, it's that academicconnection that I think needs to
stay in our field and, and I'mproud that I was able to
contribute to that for peoplethat were working in the field.
And I'm proud that now wecontinue to be able to bridge
that gap that can so readilyhappen where academia goes so

(31:19):
far away from practice and thatthere's people now that you're
gonna get your PhD in B andanalysis is just cuz you wanna
geek it out for me.
You know, I mean, not really,there's other opportunities but.
And so as long as you're gonnatake that next level of kingdom
to geek them to, to keepinspiring and helping people, I
think it's exactly what ourfield needs right now.
So I, I worry a bit that we'restarting to divide more.
And so I hope that we can bringit back together and I'm, I'm

(31:41):
proud that I was able to be apart of something that was
specifically for people who workfull-time in the field.
And it's still there now thismany years later and, and doing
great, you know, so, um, I thinkthey're a little too big though.
I'll openly say that.
I have no problem saying a lottoo big, and that's why I
stepped down.
when they wanted to put the PhDonline.
A lot of people know my story.
I, I went all out.
I was like, no way.

(32:02):
and I think I delayed that by mydramatic exit, by like a good
three to five years.
Yeah.
I'm not sure what that did, but,but it made me feel better at
the moment that I was standingup for what is now That's
different though too.
Uh, Endicott and everything I'mhearing it's a wonderful
program, you know, and they'reprimarily online, so it's
changing.
You just gotta keep an eye onwhat's working and not working
and, um, I think the programsthat are accepting a ton of

(32:24):
students at really high rates,uh, are, are gonna see problems
and the data are showing that,you know, I'm not a a publisher
as much anymore, but I'm happyother people are putting it out
there and showing, the passrates and talking about these
issues.
I've never seen as many openfaculty positions in my life as
I've seen just, and I'm notlooking just, just when it comes
across my feet, I'm like, thisis unprecedented.

(32:45):
And so, I don't know whose datapeople are operating off of.
The, the demand curves areshowing the university systems.
This is needed, but it seems tobe evident.
So I hope someone will go andpublish this soon and show it.
So it's gonna be interesting,you know.

Jonathan (32:59):
You know, I was just at APBA, I saw Dr.
Jim Carr, um, you know, c e o ofB cv who, who did his
presentation.
He's always phenomenal.
Oh my gosh.
I've enraptured every time hepresents.
But he showed, de-identifiedlike the top 10 programs by
number of applicants in the passrates.
And I think two of the 10 had apassing, like, like an A, B, C,
D, E, F, like a passing score.

(33:20):
And it was like a couple of'emwere in the 30% range.
So, um, like my next questionis, if you could wave your magic
wand and change one thing aboutmasters and PhD programs in a b
a, what would that be?

And I know I was ready for this and I'm not.
Why?
Because my, I want my answer tobe more appropriate.
Faculty student ratios, uh,meaning smaller.
but I just heard, and I don'twanna be able to Glooms day,
doomsday Glooms day, um, overthe weekend.
I, I don't know where this datacomes from, but it's a reliable
source that told me, actually,it's a former professor of mine

(33:58):
that said, so I'll be a littlebiased and trust there but
mentioned some data that cameout that they were serving
faculty members and behavioralanalysis and listed all the
different types of, uh,functional behavioral
assessments and functionalanalysis that you can do, uh,
you know, latency based, blah,blah, blah.
Just went through a bunch ofdifferent kinds and asked them

(34:19):
to rank which ones they werefamiliar with.
Familiar with, and these werefaculty members and it was like
certain types of FBAs came upthat they were saying they
weren't familiar with.
Right.
It would be one thing if yousaid that you've conducted a lot
or had experience with.
So honestly, I don't know John,you know, I waived my magical

(34:41):
wand I'd I'd say, I guess I'dhave to add on after this
weekend.
Now I would've said to you, tothis point, smaller student
faculty ratios and now I'm gonnasay smaller student faculty
ratios with greater oversight,which makes me so scared.
Cause I'm not trying to becomelike a police state, and that
does come back to accreditation.
That does come back to bridgingthe gap between the
certification and accreditationbodies and.

(35:03):
That does come back to a wholebunch of fun politics that have
been going on for a very longtime.
And I have nothing but respectfor Dr.
Carr.
Uh, uh, he actually started theUN n R Early Childhood Autism
Center, which I was theassistant director for when he
left.
So right there, these old schoolstories of all the connections.
So I owe Jim part of my career,and I called Jim as the KBA

(35:25):
Conference Chair when, uh, whenthe B A C B made their decision
to no longer have thecertification be international.
Because as the chair I was thendealing with some potential
strife with an upcomingpresentation that we had jointly
between A B A I and, and A P BA.
I said potential strife.
I'm not saying anything.
Um, and Dr.

(35:46):
Carr was phenomenal.
So I think what we need is tocontinue to support, uh, our
membership organizations and ouraccrediting and certification
bodies, and, uh, ensure that theleaders are.
Uh, walk in the walk and talk inthe talk and listening.
And, uh, Dr.
Carr's an amazing example ofthat.
Um, and we are the certificates.

(36:06):
We are the ones paying for theaccreditation.
We are the people that can drivethese processes.
These are not the big bad policethat are on top of us if it's
going wrong.
It's our voices as students,professors, owners,
practitioners, and certificatesto make those changes.
So I, I'm gonna go with smallerstudent faculty ratios and leave
it at that.
Cause I don't know whatoversight should look like, but,

(36:29):
uh, that's where we need tostart.

Jonathan (36:31):
You're embarked now, Rachel on a, a new venture, kava
consulting.
You talked a little bit about,um, and I wanna highlight one of
the things that you are reallypassionate about is this idea of
clinical standards versusprofessional standards.
Tell me more.

I appreciate you asking Jonathan, cuz I know I'm,
I'm, uh, always screaming aboutit.
Right.
CABA Consulting was, uh,something that we had started to
think about early on before thepandemic, and right when we
thought we were settling down,went to launch again.
And a whole other wave of thingshave come.
So, as I joke, I'm CABAConsulting Consulting for CABA
right now, but, um, originally,and uh, actually there's an

(37:09):
amazing website that we stillstand by, but I haven't done
like a, I've done a soft launch,but CABA Consulting first came
out because it was a, are you aABA agency that wants to expand
your scope of practice in termsof your settings and across
ages?
Cuz that's what CABA has doneand we can come in and help you.
And in particular, kava was thefirst agency to open ABA based

(37:29):
community living homes in thestate of California.
So similarly, we were the onlyone that had an adult day
program that was, uh, based onaba.
And so we knew as people neededto diversify their.
Clients, their funding sourcesthat we've got pretty much the
best track record.
So CABA Consulting launched forthat purpose.
Then over time, we've done a lotof work in what we call the risk

(37:51):
driven approach.
Now we call it the RDA and I, Iwon't get too much into that,
but if you're interested, any ofthe links that are available,
um, you can find me talkingabout it and knock on wood and
article's coming out prettysoon.
And, and the risk drivenapproach is actually based on
the last sentence of the introto the BAC B'S latest ethical
update, uh, which says, our jobas practitioners, as behavioral

(38:13):
analytic practitioners is toalways put clients' interests
first, to maximize desiredoutcomes and minimize risk.
And what we always came back tois that's not just risk to a
given procedure, meaningtraditional risk benefit
analysis that's included inthere.
We have to conduct risk benefitanalysis.
But if you really take thesentence in, maximize desired

(38:35):
outcomes and minimize risk, Whatwe started realizing is that's
different to say risk to desiredoutcomes.
And we had a bit of a shift thatI've noticed over the months
that we've been presenting on itmore and talking about it more.
Again, I kind of just have tolay the seed for people that are
hearing it the first time and Ihope you'll just kind of reflect
on it and take it in.
Cuz we definitely have data nowto even demonstrate that over

(38:56):
time, the more you start tothink about it, you can see how
it quickly changes thenarrative.
It changes the narrative, bothfor case conceptualization,
right?
So what I just said, it's clientinterest first and that's a
whole other podcast, right?
But if you stop and say, are weconstantly maximizing desired
outcomes and minimizing risk?
In other words, is everydecision that's being made
minimizing risk to desiredoutcomes?

(39:18):
Not just a harm and danger ineverything we think of?
Cuz that's not the definition ofthe word risk, by the way.
Is it minimizing risk to desiredoutcomes, which includes the
harm and danger?
I don't think any of thosethings are a desired outcome,
right?
We took that approach andflipped it in terms of how we're
supporting our staff.
So when I talk about ourclinical standards and our
professional standards, OB usedto say clinical and admin and

(39:40):
performance.
And when you break all thoseterms down it, it gets messy.
So we're just gonna go clinicalcase conceptualization, clients
performance, staff performance,which includes their case
conceptualization, right?
That also includes turning theirreports on time, meeting their
billable requirement, conductingthe field supervision hours
they're supposed to conduct,having their client files up to

(40:01):
date.
And our model now, we realizedit's wonderful to say, okay.
I'm gonna embrace the minimum.
Our certifications are set atminimum standards.
Our accreditation is set atminimum standards.
That's okay, that's their job.
Sure.
Should we continue to work ontrying to increase our
standards, improve ourrequirements?

(40:22):
Sure.
I, I was in academia long time.
I can tell you how long it takesto move the needle on those
systems.
All right, so for now, here weare, and that's their job.
Okay.
So what's our job now asproviders?
Right?
Our job as providers, I like tothink is not only to support
them, to make sure that they'recontinuing to meet the minimum
standards, but that they'reexceeding those.

(40:44):
But more importantly, that we'rereminding our staff, and a lot
of them, thank goodness being myformer students, know that I'm
not just trying to be a harshbusiness bureau.
Those minimum standards are yourcredential, meaning as your
employer.
your certification tells youthat you need to submit your
reports on time.
Your certification tells youthat you need to complete all

(41:05):
these hours.
Your certification tells youyour client files need to be up
to date.
The one thing it doesn't tellyou is to meet your billable
requirement.
Okay?
Let's just put that one to theside and say that's the one
thing in your JD that is notpart of your certification.
So what, the way we built Cabois to say, look, We are here to
support you to meet thoseminimum standards, and I'll give

(41:25):
you access to people withincreased expertise.
I will give you a committedmeeting at least once a month
that has nothing to do with yourclient.
I don't care about yourbillable, that you're sitting
one-on-one with someone andyou're doing a performance
review and you're looking at allof your responsibilities, and I
will make sure you have thatthere for you.
But here's the bottom line.
It is your John for yourcertification to be at that
minimum.

(41:46):
Now, if you are not in ourentire performance system at
CABA is based on this now andwhat we do at CABA Consulting
when we help other companies.
You need to come into thatadvisor every day.
We call'em a boss, behavioroperations support specialist.
Eh, you need to come into thisperson that I have here not to
direct you and tell you what todo on an org chart.
They're, they're actuallycalled, um, executive advisors

(42:08):
at Cabo.
We even took rid of the seniorbehavior analyst title cause we
were like, they're just there tosupport you.
We're maintaining a commitmentthat we're giving you access to
supports what you said youwanted, and every other ABA
company we're doing it.
You need to come in and say, Ididn't meet my minimums this
month.
Now you need to say, do you feelthat you can or cannot next
month?
And why do you feel you're at ahigh risk?

(42:30):
A moderate risk?
A low risk?
So taking that same notion andembedding it across both the way
they approach their caseconceptualization, and now their
own performance has just come inhandy for us.
But it made me have to realizethat we'd still gotta separate
it though, right?
But we have to have the samefoundation.
We can't have, here's yourclinical job and here's your
admin job.

(42:51):
It's just the days of showingsomeone an org chart and they're
gonna come in and be like,here's my position on an org
chart.
Here's the person I'm supposedto report to and, and I respect
this whole model, and I totallyunderstand how this one thing I
did today has all of thesemassive, massive implications.
Or as it be around, let's say,interlocking contingencies, then
they're not gonna do that.
We're gonna have to lay it outin a way that they're an

(43:14):
integral part of the process.
And I think separating out andexplaining to them from day one,
This is your clinicalperformance.
This is case conceptualization.
This is your job that you'recertified in.
Here are your performancestandards.
By the way, that's also a lot ofpart of your certification.
And, and I'm here to help you,but there's only so long I'm
gonna help you to turn a reportin on time.
And that's helped us be able tokeep clinicians, supporting

(43:36):
clinicians, because now I'm notas worried that that clinician
is suddenly putting on someother type of clinical hat and
wanting to help them through,Nope, hr, hr, but not harshly.
You're not an expert insupporting someone that can't
meet the minimum requirements oftheir job.
They might need anaccommodation.
And for a while we weredefinitely seeing the BCBAs.
You know, I, I joke with the ACTpeople.

(43:56):
I'm like, you can't heap flexall of that.
They need to go to hr.
Like, you know, like, like, thisis not your job.
So I hope I didn't take too longon that one, Jonathan.

Jonathan (44:04):
I think, I think that's a really, it, it's a
refreshing look.
I like the idea that, um, numberone, like that reinforcement of
certification is a minimumstandard or accreditation is a
minimum standard.
So true.
And the idea of incorporatingprofessional standards, like
part of your certification isthe work that you do to allow
your clients to.

(44:24):
getting services Well, Rachel,what's one thing every ABA
business owner should startdoing and one thing to stop
doing?

I would've never answered this question till
today, believe it or not.
Uh, because I am such a beinganalyst, obviously, if it hasn't
come through strongly or I'mlike, I, I don't know.
It depends on the variables thathave contributed to your
performance at that point intime, your history, your current
context.
Like that's my view on theworld.
So I have a hard time with thesetraditional, like, you know,

(44:49):
questions that way.
However, I will say now, 100%.
Uh, stop approaching everythingwith respect to that title that
you have, whatever it might be,and start approaching it as if
you are a consultant.
Uh, and that has been the mostpowerful thing for me.
so I don't know if it'll be asuccessful for other people
though.
So that's where the dork in mestill has to come out and say,
I'm not sure, depending on yourlearning history and your

(45:12):
context, but for me it's beenworld changing.
Um,

Jonathan (45:17):
Do you think that's a function of sort of being able
to take a more dispassionate, Iwon't say third party, but a
dispassionate approach?
Or is it mindset change?
What is

I know, right?
funny you said that cuz it's notdispassionate.
it's simply the function ofknowing that I'm not making a
decision about whatever'shappening right now.
I need to go tell other peoplewhether or not I think they
should be making that decision.
I'll make it that, that simple.
So I guess that's why I wannaquickly tell other people if
they jump to it, they'll gothrough that faster than I did.
coming in with that attitude ofthinking you're not, and that

(45:46):
you have to describe this tosomeone else, it does change
your process.
There's no doubt.
You know, I mean I was evenplaying around with it at one
point.
I'm like, you know what if Istarted doing it with my almost
20 year old and my eight yearold, right?
Like I'm not really the momhere.
It's not my choice.
I'm gonna listen.
And I actually kind of have towith the 20 year old, cuz he has
four parents and a girlfriendthat he's moving in with.
actually, it's probably timingfor me too, now that I Thank you

(46:07):
for this self therapeutic momenthere, Jonathan, that I'm
reflecting.

Jonathan (46:11):
Rachel, I see you on the self therapeutic moment, and
I, I wanna raise you on thisbecause you are Congratulations.
A newly elected cast boardmember.
Your term starts later thisspring.
So tell me, are you gonnaapproach your cast board member
position from that consultantmindset, from a board member's
mindset or from something elseEntirely.

And I love you just said that cuz we didn't say
this to each other earlier.
Uh, I, I think I might haverubbed one of the board members
the wrong way this weekend.
So, so he just reminded me.
So let's end on a funny story.
I'll make it quick.
my first election I ever ran inwas in, uh, 2000, uh, three or
four.
Uh, and it was for the,international Association for

(46:53):
Behavioral Analysis ExecutiveCouncil, uh, the student rep
role.
and that vote was international.
I ran against someone fromIreland actually.
Uh, and when I got, I got theposition, uh, and when I got on
the board, the current presidentwas the department chair of my
grad program.
And I happened to work for her,uh, as well.
I wasn't in her lab, but I.

(47:13):
Funny enough, it's Linda Hayes.
I ran the satellite master'sprograms that Linda Hayes ran
for u n r.
So that was my admin job withher, essentially.
So I was really excited cuz Iwas like, I'm going into a three
year term and the president'smy, like, you know my buddy,
right?
I'm on the, I'm the one who hadto go get the rental car
whenever, whatever airport welanded at, regardless if I was
going to the meeting, right?

(47:33):
Like I was her assistant and shelooked right at me and I
revisited this conversation withher this weekend actually.
She looked right at me and shesaid, congratulations Rachel.
Yeah.
So you have a year now thatyou're not allowed to say
anything.
And I'll never forget, and foryears I would, and I mentored a
lot of students to run for thatactual election.
Antonio Harrison was in myclass, Megan Acklin, if there's

(47:55):
anyone listening that knowsthese guys.
And, uh, we went through thesame thing.
And I said, I wished at the timeshe had told me, or the dorky
behavior analyst would say, sheattacked the variables as to why
that was a lesson I needed tolearn.
She didn't.
All right.
And I give her a hard time forthat directly, but.
Me rubbing a board member thewrong way is one of the other
board members very excited.
I think it was like, okay, thisis another fresh blood.

(48:16):
I won't say who it is, but youcan figure it out if you think
about it, if you know it.
I love this person to death and,and I said to this person, I'm
just excited.
I'm excited to listen and learn.
So to answer your question, myfirst thing is how am I gonna
approach it?
Right?
And this I could, this one got Ithink, a lot joking.
We didn't really rub each otherthe wrong way.
And I think this person wasjoking in their reaction, but it
was real.
They kind of went.
What do you mean you're gonnalisten?

(48:37):
Like as if I have so much tocontribute right away, I should
come out through the gate.
Right.
And it, but it was kind of areally funny moment.
I found myself reflecting itover the weekend and I grabbed
them like a day later and Isaid, okay.
In my defense, you know, and Itold this story quickly and I
said, this is an overly trainedresponse of me, but it's a
balance.
Don't worry, I got your back.
Like, I don't know what dramaI'm coming.
Joking.
I don't think, I think it wasmore of a funny, like, there's

(48:58):
nothing going wrong from whatI've heard, it's an amazing
organization and they work very,very well together.
But I tell that story cuz it'strue.
I don't know, I haven't thoughtthrough the consultant hat yet.
I think that's on me all thetime now.
But I am an elected voice.
I, I recognize that.
So that's a little different.
Right.
But that is kind of the sameright.
When you think about it.
So I will look to the membershipas you elected me and I'm a

(49:19):
voice and my job is to take whatyou think to my peers now at the
same time.
Yeah.
Obviously as a board memberallowed to have your own opinion
and people elected you knowingthat you were gonna make, uh,
Contributions based on that.
So, uh, I think I sent you anemail that I sent to, I think
less than a dozen.
We have 20 something people.
Actually, I, I didn't do thatmuch.

(49:39):
I'll look at the numbers later,but I'm pretty sure I, I didn't
send 20 emails cuz I was scaredif everyone answered me I
wouldn't answer them.
So I just picked a few names,like people I had seen and that
is what I said.
I said I'm excited to bring myless known, skillset to this
less known if you follow me inthe socially media, whatever
world or at conferences, um,which is my listening.

(49:59):
And I, I've been trained to dothat a long time.
So all the cast board members doa wonderful job doing that.
I know that I listen from adifferent vantage point, um,
having the mixed history as anagency owner of different sizes
and all of that.
So that is what I wanna bring tothe table initially, cuz I don't
know this world, and I have atendency to reference, research
articles and people as ifeveryone I'm talking to is from
that.

(50:19):
And so I've gotta.
Remember, and I'm excited forthat.
And I, I thank Lori for, uh, itwas four years ago and I just
was glancing as I was coming upthe escalator at Calaba at the
restaurant that's outside.
And I got emotional and I toldDan, Dan Unum walked up and had
the pickle with him.
And, uh, sorry for podcastmembers, I have no idea what
we're talking about.
Um, uh, I told Dan that Loricame to my panel on running

(50:41):
community living homes in Kwaand invited me to speak at the
last summit, uh, four monthsbefore the pandemic.
So fall of 2019.
And I had never been.
And uh, the last summit is notformally connected with CASP,
but I tell this story because itwas my first time and now 25
years in the field, um, ofwalking in a room and realizing,
oh my gosh, my geek crew is nothere.

(51:02):
These are all parents and policymakers and business people.
These are people making massivedecisions involving billions of
dollars, and they all reallylove aba.
And I was a little confused asto why I was there at first, and
then it dawned on me, oh, Ryanturned 18.
Got it.
Like, you know, I was like, andthey all love it and they don't

(51:22):
know what it's supposed to looklike.
and I'm very grateful for thatstory.
I think I was, I was getting alittle low, believe it or not,
before the pandemic, which issad to admit.
And it reminded me, that's how Istarted.
I'm the chick who saw flyerposted on a wall from a powerful
mom at my college that said,will you come help my kid with
autism?
And I had no idea what ABA was,but I knew what autism was and

(51:44):
this sounded like an amazingmother.
And that's where the workhappens, you know?
So I'm honored to be a part ofthat side, but, and honored to
talk to you, man.
And it's fun to see you playingaround with everybody too.
I think it's so funny.
I'm gonna talk to you like apublished Java person, like it's
Jonathan Mueller.
What do you mean?
Haven't you read all of hisresearch?
Like, I mean, that's how Ithink, like, I'm like, oh,
that's not research.
Got it.

Jonathan (52:05):
Uh, so powerfully said, Rachel, where can people
find you online?

You know, the best thing is honestly, to keep
going to Kava.
I'd love to say it's, uh, kavaconsulting.com, but, uh, if you
go to the Center for AppliedBehavioral Analysis, I'm pretty
active on LinkedIn.
My Facebook is just never, I hadnever seen social media until
six years ago.
I'm still trying to figure itout.
So, uh, I accept Facebook friendrequests and, now apparently my
Instagram is even open, so feelfree.

(52:31):
I don't even know what I'mdoing.
So I'm myself no matter whereI'm at.
So any of those, please come.
And, uh, yeah, and I guess I, Iguess I had done a soft
launcher.
The first one I made it soundstronger about.
If you're interested in KavaConsulting, please, I'm, I guess
I'm ready to start, which isodd, but, I'm excited to try and
help more people CABAstabilizing.
So if there's anything we didright, and I can help other
people do.

(52:51):
That's what, that's all I knowhow to do.
So you keep doing this though,man.
This is so much fun and it's funto see the amazing voices you're
bringing.
I just make fun that you didn'tlet me tell my getting punched
in the face story like you letMolly tell and Darren and stuff.
So thanks a lot.
I'm, I

Jonathan (53:08):
Well.
Alright Rachel, we canincorporate it here, but are you
ready for the hot takequestions?

I think so, but I, I don't even remember
anymore, but go for it.
Yeah.

Jonathan (53:16):
All right.
You're on your deathbed.
What's the one thing you wannabe remembered for?

I have absolutely no idea and I love it that, I
don't know true

Jonathan (53:25):
What's your most, what's your most important
self-care practice.

sleep.

Jonathan (53:29):
I amen to that.
You have a favorite song and ormusic genre.

I don't, I used to be hardcore punk rock,
hardcore gothic.
Then I was, oh yeah.
Blue purple hair all black.
Most of my life I did walk downthe aisle to madness by muse on
this last marriage.
So there you go.
Okay.
We did.
So go with that

Jonathan (53:48):
Rachel, I think I'm gonna need to see a picture of
the goth Rachel

They're out there.
See, I'm telling you that,

Jonathan (53:54):
Heck yes.
That is awesome.
What's one thing you tell your18 year old self?

uh, you know, I don't have an answer to this one
either.
I tell my 18 year old self thatyour 18 year old self.
You know?
I know.
It's just, there's nothing Iwould say differently or say,
here's what you gotta do.
I just, I don't, I don't haveanything.
I don't even know what to tellthe eight year old I made, you
know?
So, uh, I don't know.
You know,

Jonathan (54:20):
Well, you could only wear one style of footwear.
What would it be?

flip flops.

Jonathan (54:25):
Nice.

at the beach.
Now let me be clear.
Flip flops.
Yeah, she went full circle.

Jonathan (54:33):
Rachel has been so much fun.
Thank you for coming on the pod.
I appreciate you.

Appreciate it.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 75: Meet CASP's Newest Board Member Dr. Rachel Taylor

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Episode 75: Meet CASP's Newest Board Member Dr. Rachel Taylor

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