Episode 77: “Reaching Results: The Five Steps to Creating a Positive Work Environment" with Dr. John Austin

Episode Transcript
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Jonathan (00:30):
My guest today is Dr.
John Austin.
John is the CEO and founder ofReaching Results and author of a
new book Results theScience-Based Approach to Better
Productivity, profitability, andSafety.
John's an internationallyrecognized coach to business
leaders on safety and humanperformance.
He and his teams of coachleaders in hundreds of companies

(00:50):
across 19 countries, and he'spublished more than a hundred
articles and three books on thetopic now.
Four books before foundingReaching Results, John was the
professor of psychology for 15years at Western Michigan
University.
John, welcome back to the pod.

Dr. John Austin (01:05):
thank you for having me.
It's, uh, it's great to be backand great to have another
conversation with you, man.
Absolutely.

Jonathan (01:10):
It always is.
We had so much fun about a yearago talking and now, dude, you
have been a busy beaver.
So let's jump into your book,like what inspired you to write
this book results thescience-based approach of better
productivity, profitability, andsafety.
My man.

Oh man, that's a good question.
I should start with the factthat I love obm.
I mean, I was thinking back,about this, and you know, like
when I was in grad schoolforever ago in the nineties,
some of us who were interestedin om.
We got together and we literallyread everything that existed.
On the topic, like we read everysingle article, uh,

(01:48):
research-wise, right?
And like any books we could getour hands on, there weren't many
books at that time, really.
And so, that's one of the thingsthat in some of my talks to ABA
leaders lately, on the circuitI've been recommending to young
people, man, like, people writeto me, how do I learn about obm?
I'm like, there's a lot to read.
Just start reading, try to readit all.
and so we'd just sit around andlike late hours and geek out

(02:11):
about any new studies that wefound or how we could apply it
here or there.
the lab was just like anythingthat was around us, right?
And so it was business, but itwas also our research lab or the
department or anything we couldget our hands on.
we were just kind ofexperimenting all the time with
these things.
and then I became a professor,at Western Michigan University,

(02:31):
and I was the editor of theJournal of, organizational
Behavior Management for years.
And so even during that time, Ithink probably I read everything
in the field up to 2010 or sowhen I really launched after
being a professor.
and I've become a little spottysince then.
But the thing that I feel like,uh, characterizes a lot of the
field is these articles tell youwhat to do, but not necessarily

(02:56):
how to do it.
It's almost like it's a recipe,like you're cooking and you know
what all the ingredients are,but you don't know how much of
each one, we know feedbackworks, but how do you deliver
it?
And like, what are the exactcircumstances under which you
deliver it and what are theexact words you say?
Um, so you can read a literaturereview and find out the

(03:16):
different situations andcontexts in which it works, but
making it work for you with oneother person is a different
story sometimes it seems like.
So that's one of the, that's oneof the kind of organizing
principles to use one of yourterms, uh, around like, why I
wrote this book.
I think this book, hopefullyit's a step in that direction,

(03:37):
like starting to talk about howwe do this.
The other one is that I'vealways wanted to democratize O B
M, and what I mean by that isnot everybody has access even to
the science and the literature.
And even if they do, they don'tunderstand it because it's
written in sciences, you know,it's not written really in
English.
And so, My thinking is, itdoesn't have to be complicated.

(04:00):
I feel like when you're writinga scholarly article, it's gonna
be 30 or 40 pages, you know whatI mean?
And not everybody wants to read30 or 40 pages on one little
specific topic.
that's why I created the FiveSteps.
I didn't create them.
I mean, I created them.
They're different than others,but they're based on all the
other models that are out therethat I read about as well,
right?

(04:20):
So, I didn't, you know, inventsomething when it came to that,
but the idea was to make itreally simple.
at first when I was teaching atthe university, it was make it
so simple that undergrads withno business experience could do
it.
And like make a change in abusiness.
never had a job, never been amanager, a leader.
You follow these five steps, gointo an organization, you can

(04:43):
actually make a valuableimprovement.
And, and then as I started doingmore and more applied work with
leaders around the world, thechallenge was how do you do this
with leaders who have neverheard of behavior, don't even
know what behavior is, let aloneABA or OBM right?
And so like those are like acidtests to me.
can you make it simple enoughfor people to do it, you know?

(05:05):
And so, uh, yeah, democratize OB M and help people understand
how to do this, not just likewhat to do.
I'm hoping that that's what thebook does, you know, in its own
way.
And, uh, you know, we'll see.
hopefully you get people, giveit a read and, and let me know.

Jonathan (05:22):
you had me flashing back like 20 years to early in
my career when I was a quoteunquote management consultant.
I'm like 21, 22 years old goinginto these like Fortune 500
companies and trying to givethem feedback on stuff.
And I had like no idea where Iwas coming from.
I had like a few tools in mytoolkit and some frameworks, in
doing that kind of consultingwork, it was very e it wasn't

(05:43):
easy, but you know what I mean.
Like we could deliver thiswonderful PowerPoint
presentation and tell them whatthey had to do.
But then the hardest part islike, how do you take that and
actually execute on it?
And that's why I appreciate thislitmus test that you describe
of, make it simple and easy andaccessible, democratizing it.
But I just wanna help listenersunderstand, clearly you're

(06:05):
passionate about ABA and youwork in the ABA field, but you
also work in a variety of otherindustries that have nothing to
do with applied behavioranalysis, right?
Yeah,

yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
So I mean, from day one, when Iwent to grad school, I, I worked
with John Bailey and so, one ofthe coolest things that I, I
learned there was like behaviorseverywhere, right?
So he had lots of experiences tohook us into in the schools.
Uh, doing a b a and working withparents and working with
teachers and, studentsthemselves, obviously, and, uh,

(06:36):
developmental centers at thattime and, stuff like that.
but then, he also hadconnections with organizations
that he helped me get into.
And so I, I had a really widevariety of opportunities to do,
like applied work.
a lot of it wasn't ABA and itstill is, but over the years
I've just gotten more interestedin helping people outside of ABA

(06:58):
too.
So, yeah, probably I've workedin 10 industries.
I think, I don't know, I don'treally keep count anymore, but
it's, it's been at least 10.
from manufacturing, constructionto utilities and even aviation
and, government and, lot, lotsof others.

Jonathan (07:14):
there's clearly consequences, right?
To, I don't know, like B C B A,not giving the best feedback,
but that's totally differentfrom when you're working in a
manufacturing facility as you'vedone, right.
And you're talking about notjust psychological safety, but
literal safety.
Like lives are on the line.
Right.
And like livelihoods if youdon't get this stuff right.

Yeah.
And sometimes, you know, inthose environments, your own
physical safety is at risk ifyou give feedback poorly, like
in a, in a threatening way, youknow what I mean?
Not like occupational safety,but that happens for sure.

Jonathan (07:46):
in my mind I'm an evangelist like you are for the
power of our science and that itcan truly impact all kinds of
industries and all kinds ofprofessions and all kinds of
people, and that's a really neatthing.
Well, I wanna dive in now andlet's just, let's now spend the
rest of this conversationactually, like breaking down.
You've got five steps here thatyou've identified.

(08:07):
first, tell us the five stepsand then let's start with that
first one and go deep.

Yeah.
Awesome.
just like to set the table alittle bit, one of the reasons
there are five steps and one ofthe reasons the book is written
in the way that it is, it's gotworksheets throughout the whole
book, which, we can supply alink for you to get access to
fillable worksheets and stufflike that, uh, as you go.
But every chapter has aworksheet that builds on the
next.

(08:33):
The idea is to facilitate you inmaking a behavior change or
improving a result in yourorganization.
Like that's the whole idea ofthe book.
I mean, a book alone, eh, it'snot always the best behavioral
technology for behavior change.
Right.
But it will get you started onthat for sure.
Um, so one of the things that,that I, I'm kind of a stickler
on is that in ABA and outside ofaba, just like probably the

(08:55):
human race in general, the waywe're acculturated, is that we
have this illusion that askingor telling somebody to do
something, we will get them todo it.
We have this illusion thatknowing the thing is enough, and
then that'll change ourbehavior.
Um, and so reading the book canwalk you through the five steps,

(09:16):
but if you really wanted tolearn it, you would pick
something and try to followthrough the steps, like a
workbook so I'm trying todeliver that added value because
we all know in behavioranalysis, when you stop and
think about it, knowing isn'tdoing right.
So the five steps to get back toyour question, first one is
pinpointing.
And I didn't make this term up.

(09:37):
I think Og Lindsley actuallycoined this term in Skinner's
lab, like in the fifties.
but the idea is defining thebehavior in a way that makes it
measurable.
Aubrey Daniels and other peoplehave talked about this, his book
with John Bailey's a fantastic,like the bible of performance
management.
in fact it's called performancemanagement.
You wanna read that too.

(09:57):
but pinpointing is just figuringout what you wanna focus on,
what you'd like to see.
One mistake that people make inpinpointing is picking, uh,
picking stuff that annoys them.
Not what they wanna see, butthey what they don't wanna see.
So we can come back to that.
all right, so step one ispinpointing.
That's figuring out what youwanna measure.
step two is measuring.

(10:18):
So that's getting some data onit, not just opinion, but some
actual data and counting isbetter than anything else.
Step three is agreeing onexpectations.
So once you've got a target andyou've got some data, you can
start talking to people about itand having a dialogue about what
the expectation is in a clearway.

(10:38):
step four is deliveringfeedback, and step five is
recognizing improvement.
So, I've coached, not just me,but the teams I've worked on and
in classes and, and in groups ofpeople.
I've collectively been involvedwith, uh, coaching 10,000,
probably more than 10,000performance improvement projects

(11:00):
using these five steps over thepast 30 years.
And, I'd say 90% or more,succeed.
The ones that don't succeed arelike people who don't follow all
the steps.
people fall down on the stepsfour and five feedback and
recognition.
and then the other ones are whenthey pick a problem that's just
unsolvable or there's some majorbarrier they don't have control

(11:21):
over.
That happens sometimes too, butlike, it's pretty rare.
Like in most of the courses Iteach, everyone in the course
succeeds in making a behaviorchange and, and driving a better
result by the end of threemonths.

Jonathan (11:33):
let's get to this start going, on pinpointing and,
um, you know, I have been guiltyof this error of picking things
that I don't wanna see or like Iget annoyed by, and I'm not a
behavior analyst just to beclear, but like, when I'm trying
to create a behavior changeversus measuring the behavior
you wanna see why is that soimportant when it comes to

(11:54):
behavior change, in an o bmcontext and changing it at
organizations?

I mean, I think anybody who's listening to this,
who's an aba person or abehavior analyst, is gonna know
immediately why, right?
Like, because you can't, uh, Imean you can't reinforce, uh,
non behavior, right?
you can't change in nonbehavior.
we do this exercise sometimes inmy class, uh, cuz a lot of
leaders who aren't behavioranalysts have a hard time

(12:21):
getting their hat around this.
They just want all the problemsto go away.
Uh, people just do their job,you know?
but that's not good enoughbecause if you start to think
about what, like if you say, Idon't want you to complain, for
instance, right?
Like, stop complaining or stopshowing up to work late, or
something like that.
in the showing up to work late,maybe it's a little more

(12:41):
obvious, but complaining.
It's not obvious what you wantme to do instead.
Right?
So we can think about thousandsof things that we're not doing
right now.
Uh, and it doesn't do us anygood at all, right?
they're, they're not happening,right?
what you need to have is, AubreyDaniels calls it an active
pinpoint, and that just meansit's a behavior that is

(13:01):
occurring.
So, you could say, I'd like youto complain less, but I think
it's a lot more functional foryou to say, I'd like you to do
this positive thing instead.
I'd like you to come to themeeting with some ideas about
how we can improve and sharethem in a respectful way.
I don't know, something likethat.
I'm just making something upthere, but like, you got my

(13:23):
point, right?
So, you might have pinpointslike meeting deadlines.
That's an active thing.
that's a thing that's happening,or starting an ending on time or
praising good work or deliveringfeedback at a ratio of four
positives to one corrective.
Element that gets, that's reallyspecific, right?

(13:43):
delivering reinforcement within30 seconds of the target
behavior.
If you're doing ABA services ori b I services, whatever, um, I
don't know.
Those are some ideas.
I don't do a lot of work indelivering higher quality
services.
I'm a behavior analyst and I, Idelivered ABA services some, but
that's not my expertise really.
so when I teach courses, Iencourage people who are experts

(14:08):
at this to whatever it is,whether it's behavior analysis
or manufacturing, they'reexperts.
They know what results they wantto achieve.
I help them find the behaviorsthat are driving those results.
So I don't need to know whatthey are.
I just need to help bring it outof them and then help them like
draft it up and pinpoint it inthe proper way.

Jonathan (14:29):
That is so powerful.
the ability to generalize thesesteps, right?
To allow and work someonethrough a process where they can
actively pinpoint.
Certain processes or behaviorchanges, whatever it is that
will lead to the results thatthey want.
But you know, as you weretalking about Dr.
Aubrey Daniels, was he theperson, John, that, that said,
like, what was it, the deadperson test?
if a dead person can do it, thenit's not a behavior or

(14:52):
something, which like is exactlywhat came to mind as you're
defining this.
Are there any other cautionarynotes or things that you'd
encourage, someone who's tryingto get the pinpointing stage
right, that you'd encourage themto do?
Yeah,

great question.
Um, one of the things thathappens sometimes is that people
just pick what's around themright now without thinking about
it very much.
And so, you know, there arethousands of behaviors around
you every day in the workenvironment, right?
Some of them that catch yourattention aren't necessarily the
important ones.

(15:25):
And by important, what I mean isthey're gonna drive a key
result.
and it doesn't have to be afinancial result in the
organization.
this book actually focuses moreon relationships than financial
results, um, at the end of theday.
So it could be like a shorterterm result, like bringing the
team together, building trust,or, um, these are difficult to

(15:46):
measure, but still important.
developing a strongerrelationship with people,
having, higher behavioralintegrity where people believe
you're gonna do what you sayyou're gonna do, stuff like
that.
So what I encourage people to doand this is in the worksheets,
in the book, is to, first thinkabout the key results that your
organization produces.
Okay?
So once you've got in touch withthat, then start to think about

(16:07):
your role and what are the keyresults in your role?
what's expected of you todeliver?
Once you've got some of thosethings, there are a whole series
of other exercises to give youlots and lots more ideas.
But like, let's just stop withthose.
Once you've got a clear handleon the business results that you
need and your team or yourresults in your role, then you

(16:28):
know, you pick one that youthink you could improve or you'd
like to improve.
And then the next layer down iswhat are the like one to three
critical behaviors that drivethose results?
And those are your pinpoints.

Jonathan (16:41):
I love that you focus on relationships as sort of a, a
frame for this book because inall of the books that I've read
and in my experience, you can dothe best job possible setting
goals and trying to execute to'em and trying to build a team.
But if you don't have trustwithin your team and your

(17:03):
organization, people can't relyon one another and they just
don't trust one another toaccomplish jobs, then like
everything else is out thewindow.
Right?
Yeah,

yeah.
Like try giving feedback tosomebody who doesn't trust you.
Good luck.
I mean, you can, and I thinkthat, you know, like some of us
who are, you know, gray like me,learned in the days where it was
like, well just give thefeedback and be clear and it's
on them to deal with, it's theirstuff, whether they take it well

(17:36):
or not, you know, and, uh, okay.
To some extent that's true, butI really think that, you're not
as effective as you could be ifyou follow that strategy.
if you think about how do I beclear, but also respectful.
And create the conditions wherethis person wants my feedback
and wants to improve, thenyou've got some potential.
You can really make a bigdifference.

(17:57):
The

Jonathan (17:57):
the point at which they're actively asking you and
they're hungry for feedback.
That's a clear side.
It seems like you're in a hightrust environment.
Let's go to step two because,um, oh gosh, the feedback part,
we're gonna need to crush in amoment.
Yeah.
Step two, measuring what'simportant to get right here,
John?
Yeah,

so, I think the biggest, pitfalls that I see
here mostly involve overcomplicating it.
Um, especially among behavioralanalysts, man, like people in my
classes who are in ABAorganizations, they all think
we're gonna do a master'sproject in three months or
something.
And like some of them have, andsome of them did.
we've published a couple ofpapers showing the efficacy of

(18:32):
this approach, with leaders and,in ABA organizations.
And you can see the data andtheir actual grabs and they're
like reversal designs in thereand like all kinds of like
multi-element designs and stufflike that.
and my point here is that's notrequired at all.
I think the best way to thinkabout this is to make it as
simple as it can be and notsimpler and not more complex.

(18:57):
Yeah, so I'll give you anexample.
I see people creating databasesand pivot tables and like
automated QR codes and tech thatI don't even understand.
when, in manufacturing it worksjust as well.
When one of my leaders took, hewanted to deliver more praise.
So he put eight quarters in hisright pocket in the morning, and

(19:19):
then every time he deliveredpraise, he moved a quarter to
the left pocket.
And then at the end of the dayhe counted the left pocket
quarters and that's the numberof praises that he gave out, you
know?
Right.
So you just have to know if it'sgetting better or worse.
That's all the measurement isrequired,

Jonathan (19:34):
oh, and you know, there's this like, um, Japanese,
I think six Sigma manufacturingconcept called Kanban.
And I'm not gonna get thisexactly right, but as I
understand it, back in like thefifties and sixties, as, as the
Japanese were trying to figureout how do you get more
efficient, how do you get safer?
How do you make the productionline.
Run faster.
they developed the Kanbansystem, which we hear now in the

(19:57):
context of project managementand, you know, um, checking code
in and out and like prioritizingdifferent things.
It's like, it, it's a littlecomplicated, but in its original
form, it was like at the end ofthe day when you're done with
your tool, a hammer and you wentto hang it up.
It had to be as simple as theywould draw an outline of a
hammer on the wall and youliterally would just stick the

(20:17):
hammer boom and hang it there.
Or the pickax or the shove orwhatever it was.
Like that's the level ofsimplicity.
Not that we are simple minded ashuman being.
Well, I mean, I'm simple minded,but, but my point is when there
is so much that we're trying tolike solve for in our heads,
don't we have to make as leadersjust make those kinds of
decisions more automatic?
And I think that comes back toyour point of measuring is make

(20:38):
it easy to do.
Right?
Yeah.
Man,

what a great example.
I had so many projects inmanufacturing, on the shop floor
of frontline supervisors tryingto get people to put their tools
away on the tool boards thatwere marked exactly like you're
describing.
So it becomes visible, you know,I'm looking at my wall.
Like it becomes visible when thetool is missing because the
outline is there.
Right.
And I think that's a fantasticexample of what behavioral

(21:03):
approaches can do.
What we're here to do, I think,is to provide environmental
support.
At the point of performance,like when it matters, when, not
like five months before orwhatever, but like when the
person is doing the job, isthere an open slot for the
hammer, so to speak?
You know, the more we can thinkabout it that way, man, there's

(21:25):
a lot to learn from lean forsure.

Jonathan (21:28):
when I learned the brilliance of a task analysis
like 10 years ago when I gotinto the field, I went so
freaking crazy, John.
I would write these five pageprocedures and I was like, yes,
I'm, you know, I had such fomonot being a behavior analyst and
I would produce these and itwouldn't create the desire
change.
And I was like, wait, what'sgoing on?
And you know what finally mademe realize it, it's when I would
download a new app from the appstore.

(21:50):
And it would be three simplevisual instructions, and I would
swipe, and then I knew how touse the app, and my eyes opened
up.
At that point, I was like, oh mygosh, people don't have time to
read these long checklists.
Put it at the point in theirenvironment.
Where they need that support.
Ah, what you just said.
Totally hammered that.

Yeah, man.
The point of performance, um, Istole that from, uh, I think
it's Russell Barkley, who's theA D H D, expert on like
behavioral approaches.
anyway, he talks about that allthe time for kids with a D H D
if they struggle with a task,make it visible.
But I think we're doing the samething.
It is just the stuff we'remaking visible is different.

(22:28):
so, your task list brings me tomy next point.
one of the first applications Isaw when I was an undergrad of
OBM was, my mentor at the time,Chris Anderson, published a
whole series of papers in earlyJ O B M in, in the eighties.
some of them were focused onhotel cleaning and the way that
they did it was, they createdchecklists for cleaning a hotel

(22:49):
room, and it was like, I don'tknow, 500 items or something
like that on the checklist.
Right.
And then they trained all thestaff on the 500 items and then
they had the supervisor comethrough and check it and give
feedback on it and okay, that'sgreat.
And blew my mind for sure.
But somebody in my last classjust wanted to do a cleaning

(23:12):
project and they just tookpictures and like, that was easy
and you can totally see andokay, you can't graph it.
But the purpose of measurementis not to have a sexy graph,
even though we all love a reallynice looking graph.
Right.
Um, the purpose is to tell youif you're getting better.
Worse or staying the same.

(23:32):
And that's the need it meets, itneeds to fill, right?
So I think that's the main watchout for measurement.
we usually make it too complexand too scary, and then it,
drives people away.
So step three is agreeing onexpectations.
So we got pinpoint, there'ssomething really clearly defined
that you wanna see happen.
You're getting some data on it.

(23:54):
And by the way, a lot of times,you know, this is a
self-correcting procedurebecause you try to measure this
pinpoint you've got in mind andyou can't, and you're like, oh,
I need to make it more specific.
Or you start to measure it andyou're like, oh, this actually
isn't a problem.
It's, it's a hundred percent allthe time.
I thought it was a problem, butit's not.
So you go back to the start, andyou find something new.

(24:15):
and then you try to measure thatin an equally simple way.
And then once you get to thestep three, you know that
there's an opportunity forimproving and it's very clearly
defined, and you've already gotsome baseline data, so you kind
of know what it looks like.
this is relevant if you'redealing with other people and
you're trying to get somebehavior change in your team or
your organization or whatever,right?

(24:35):
And so agreeing on expectationsis one of the things that
leaders do most poorly.
And there are a couple ofHarvard Business Review articles
on this topic, one was in thenineties, early nineties, and
then the same guy came back andwrote one 20 years later in like
2010 or 11, saying like, no, wehaven't gotten any better.

(24:55):
You know, so for the last, Idon't know, 30 years, one of the
top items that leaders have ahard time with is setting clear
expectations.
I think one of the reasons isthat people don't understand how
to pinpoint very well, you know,and there's some fear too,
right?
So some leaders fear that if Ipinpoint, I'm micromanaging and

(25:17):
then I'm telling everybodyexactly what to do and I don't
have time for that.
I hired them for the job.
They need to figure it out.
Um, okay, there's some validityto that.
There's some truth to it.
Others feel like, I don't know.
I'm a visionary man.
Like, you gotta figure out howto execute.
That's not my job.
My job is to have the vision andI'm gonna like draw it on a
chalkboard, and then you gottainterpret it and make it into

(25:38):
real life, you know, orwhatever.
All right, that's fine, but it'sgonna get there quicker if you
can articulate some of thebehaviors.
I also see leaders who changeexpectations a lot because
business changes, you know,things change very rapidly in
business.
And so then they're dishing outnew expectations all the time to
their, team.

(25:59):
And that gives people whiplash.
They never get a chance to getgood at anything if they're
changing every two weeks.
and then the last thing I thinkI've already said, but I just
want to reemphasize it.
I think a lot of these come fromnot having good practice at
izing things or pinpointingthings, operationalizing things.
So I think those are thechallenges that we face a lot

(26:20):
with expectations.
and so what I've done is overthe years, and this is really a,
it's like a product of all thelearning that I've been
challenged so many times in thelast 30 years to help people
understand it or what you'resaying doesn't work, Austin or
whatever, that I just, I've goneback to the literature and the
research to find ways that areeffective in dealing with this.

(26:43):
So I came up with kind of athree step process that's based
on a ton of different researchareas and stuff.
So do you want me to walkthrough that?

Jonathan (26:50):
Absolutely.
Let's do it.

All right.
so the first one is to definethe pinpoint or pinpoints that
you've identified.
You've already done that, sothat's really easy.
But like, the idea here is thatyou're gonna get together in a
meeting, in a group of people orone-on-one, that depends a lot
on the context.
We don't have time to go intothat right now, but I talk a
little bit about it in the book,but you wanna set the occasion
for, delivering theseexpectations.

(27:13):
Right?
so you want to talk about whatit is you'd like to see more of
and why you think it'simportant.
So, you know, it's important tosubmit your case notes within 24
hours of a session because wecan't submit, for insurance
payment or whatever, until thoseare completed.

(27:33):
And if we can't submit forpayment, then we don't get any
cash.
To run the organization to payyour paycheck, right?
It's a real problem.
I'm just making that up.
It might not be true for many orany, but like, that's just, you
know, one example, right?
So I've defined it reallyclearly, and I've also explained
why it's important.
I'm not just making this up.

(27:54):
there's a real reason.
I call this agreeing onexpectations, not setting or
dictating or, you know, pushing,uh, for a reason, right?
Because I thank it's best if wehave a dialogue and not
everybody wants a dialogue,right?
Like, I have some clients theywould say, you know, a leader I
was talking to last week saidsome of my team are just old

(28:16):
school and they just wanna betold what to do, man.
They don't want a dialogue.
They just want you to give'emthe list and they'll go do it.
And I'm like, okay, fine.
This doesn't do any harm.
Then.
Like if you ask them theiropinion, If they don't have one,
okay, that's that's fine.
You know where they stand,right?
But so the second step is to askthem what they think and to ask
them, you know, Hey, so onceyou've understood what this is,

(28:39):
what barriers do you have indelivering this, in producing
this, and executing on this, orwhatever, right?
And, write those things down.
And your job as a leader is totry to help remove those
barriers.
Because, like, imagine if youwere the business owner, maybe
you are the business owner, whywould you ask people to do stuff
and, and set your business up sothat when you ask them to do the

(29:00):
things that you want to getdone, they're super frustrated
when they try to do thosethings.
why would you do that?
And basically take money out ofyour own pocket and burn it.
You know, that you're basicallycreating a situation where
you're just like wasting timeand money and causing
frustration.

Jonathan (29:17):
I, you know, my business partner has, he keeps
his sign on his desk.
And so I've started doing thisas well.
It says, you're talking to theexperts.
And here's where I think this isso powerful, John, is that I, if
you're a leader, or if you're atleast a good leader, a good
business owner, hopefully youare not doing every task in your
department.
Otherwise, you should be a doer.
You shouldn't be a leader,right?

(29:38):
Which means you don't have thecontext to understand all the
different implications, right?
You can design the best processand then, you know, define some
pinpoints, and maybe you'regonna get 60, 70, 80% of the way
there, but you need your team toprovide that feedback.
That's why I love this question,that you pose around like, what
barriers do you think you'llhave in this?
And, and getting their input.
That feels powerful.

Cool.
Thank you.
you would be not, you wouldn'tbe surprised based on what you
just said, but like a lot ofpeople would be surprised at how
many projects.
That I've coached that get tothis point and they're like, oh,
they're not doing it.
Cuz I didn't give them the signin info.
and here I was super pissed offthat nobody does anything I ask
them to do and like cussing themupside one down the other and

(30:21):
all that.
Right?
Like super frustrated and uh,and it was my fault in the end,
right?
Like, that happens all the time.
Of course it does because we allmake mistakes, right?
So you gotta encourage them totalk to you about what the
barriers are.
And by the way, that's anotherelement that's really important
to all this.
And there's a whole section inone of the chapters on

(30:41):
psychological safety.
That's one of the keyfoundational elements to make
any of this stuff work in thefirst place.
Which by the way, back to thestart of this, we don't really
ever talk about an OBM, it's notin any of the publications in O
B M, it's become more popularoutside of OM these days.
But we need to be studying thisstuff more.
So, all right.

(31:01):
Identify barriers.
a subpoint to that is maybe youuse something that has a little
more structure, like theperformance diagnostic checklist
or the PDCHS, and you walkthrough and ask those questions
to help you to remember and notleave anything out, you know?
Um, so you do a little deeperanalysis potentially there, um,

(31:22):
because we know that if you comeup with function-based, even if
it's a basic functionalassessment here, like with a PD
C, if you come up withfunction-based solutions, they
work, uh, faster, they're moreeffective, and they're more
durable.
so it's worth it a lot of timesif it's a big opportunity.

Jonathan (31:40):
Because we do have some non behavior analyst
listening define function-basedsolutions for me.

Oh yeah.
Thank you, man.
so function-based solutions justmeans you're pairing the
solution to the cause of theproblem.
That's the way I would thinkabout it.
Maybe you can help me hone mylanguage a little bit, but like,
that's the way I talk about itin, say, a construction or
manufacturing, operation.
you can try to offer a pizzaparty to get'em to do the thing,

(32:07):
but if there's a big barrier,they're gonna have to like pizza
a lot to continue trying to getaround this barrier.
Right?
Like it's silly.
You just remove the barrier andyou get an immediate
improvement.
and by the way, that's thedifference in my mind at least
between behavior modification ofthe sixties and ABA of present
day.
ABA deals with function-basedsolutions.

(32:29):
You're trying to treat oridentify the causes.
And provide supports to solvethose problems or causes address
them.
All right, so thanks for askingthat Manam.
alright, so the three-stepprocess in setting expectations
or agreeing on expectations, youdefine what the behavior is and
describe why it's important.

(32:50):
You ask them what they think andask what the barriers are.
Maybe you do a PDC or you dive alittle deeper to find the
causes, of the behavior changeor the challenge.
And then number three, you tellthem what you're gonna do to
support them.
So you make a commitment and youask them to commit to doing or

(33:11):
working on this pinpoint aswell.
And you ask them explicitlylike, okay Jonathan, can you
commit to working on this?
Cuz I'm gonna collect data, I'mgonna come back, we're gonna
talk about it more.
So you're telling them what'sgonna happen and maybe that's
all you're committing to, to do,to continue keeping an eye on it
and providing support.
Being there to answer questions,or help remove barriers and

(33:33):
stuff.
But you want them to commit toit too, because you know what
that gives you, in some studies,it gives you a 15% improvement
in engagement.
Like right there, publiccommitment.
Right.
So like why wouldn't you dothat?
Cause it's awkward.
Oh, sorry.

Jonathan (33:48):
I'm not at all surprised here, the 15%, I
wouldn't be surprised if it'shigher.
John, the only way that I willexercise is if I sign up for a
race or do something and then Itell my family and friends that
I'm doing it and then I'm like,shit.
At 6:00 AM I like, all right,well I gotta get up outta bed.
Cause I've told other people,right?
But this is so true.
Just like empirically.

Totally, man.
That's why, I mean, that's whyPeloton works for me.
I join these groups where it'slike there's a weekly workout
and they track your performanceand then they share it back to
the groups.
You know, there'saccountability, man.
It's great.
Sucks sometimes, but it's alsothe outcome's really good.
So, yeah.

(34:28):
Okay.
So there's a caveat to this, uh,agreeing on expectations chapter
and, it's in there, as well.
But, sometimes leaders work ontheir own behavior Through this
process.
And that's a perfectlyacceptable thing to do.
Like don't work on your team,work on you first, and that's
great.
Like, I would like to delivermore praise to the team, let's
say for example, right?
So there you've got yourpinpoint, you can measure.

(34:49):
and then when it comes tosetting expectation, it's more
about self-management.
So I give you a few steps inthere to think about, like
reflect on why this behavior'simportant to you.
there's some evidence that thatcan produce a little bit of
behavior change or, or some kindof movement in the right
direction.
But then also identify andremove any sources of friction
that you might have fordelivering praise, let's say.

(35:13):
And add some encouragement.
It doesn't have to be like achocolate bar or anything
tangible, but it could be you'regonna put up a graph and you
know you're gonna put a datapoint on there at the end of the
day.
Or maybe you agree you're gonnashare it out with someone, an
accountability partner or evenyour team.
I've seen leaders commit to,certain behaviors like returning

(35:35):
phone calls within 24 hours, orreturning emails within 48
hours, and then collect data ontheir own behavior and share it
out to their team.
Like they're just walking thetalk man, right?
they're providing supports atthe point of performance to get
a better behavior out ofthemselves or a behavior that
they want, right?
So it applies to us all.
So you can still use this forself-management.

Jonathan (35:57):
I love it.
All right.
Well, we ready to go to, uh,step four delivering feedback.
part of my question here islike, there is so much, I
haven't read all the literatureclearly, but I've read a lot of
books on delivering feedback.
How did you synthesize all ofwhat you've learned over 30 plus
years and get it into this stepand what feels really important
to you to want to communicate tothe reader?

Yeah, the answer is, I didn't, I felt like
impossible for me to synthesizeit all.
Like I'm sure I left out, asmuch as I put in or more.
but there are some things that Ichose to focus on.
I mean, like, Okay, so I've gotall the detail, some of the
details in there for you tocreate a feedback plan.
who's gonna deliver it, what'sit gonna look like, how frequent

(36:39):
is it, instead of logisticalthings and things that we know
and some advice from theliterature that we know works
better than other things.
Right?
So that's in there.
Um, but I think that the stuffthat might make it a little bit
unique compared to the researchliterature and, the BM
literature really is, um, acouple things.

(36:59):
Like, that trust factor comesin, right?
So like, imagine that maybeyou've seen this before.
And and by the way, NicoleGravina at University of Florida
taught me this.
we worked together a lot overthe last, 15 years.
what she used to say was like,imagine you're getting feedback
and like there's a certain setof words, right?

(37:20):
And the person gives you thisfeedback and you have a really
negative reaction because youdon't trust them or you don't
have a strong relationship withthem.
Now imagine a different personwho you have a strong
relationship with and they getsay the exact same set of words
and you receive it asencouragement.
we've all had that before, Ithink, right?

(37:42):
And we've also tried to deliverfeedback to somebody who, where
the relationship maybe wasn'tthere and they reacted poorly to
it, or we stepped too far andtried to push a little bit too
far and we got frustration anddidn't get the outcome that we
wanted.
Well, I think that's one of theunique things that I tried to
bring to this book in thischapter is to get people
thinking about have youdeveloped the right relationship

(38:05):
yet to give the kind of feedbackthat you feel you need to give?
And if you haven't, or even ifyou're not sure, what could you
do to get there?
Right.
Because I think that you have tohave two things in place, at
least.
And there are lots of subpointsbelow these, but to make it
simple, they have to believeyou're trying to help them.

(38:27):
And how do you, I don't know.
We haven't studied that becausebelieve, and it's so soft and
like, how do you measure it?
And there are a millionproblems, right?
But this is a real thing thathappens at work.
if the person doesn't believeyou're trying to help them,
they're unlikely to accept anykind of corrective feedback.
And this mostly goes forcorrective feedback.
Right?
And then they have to trust thatyou have their best interest at

(38:50):
heart and they have to trust andrespect your advice a little
bit.
So I hit on how do you do thosethings a little bit?
What are some behaviors you canengage in?
And by the way, those can befocuses for projects too.
So this whole thing, like reallyworks together on it.
So one thing that you might beable to do that would have
people, believe you're trying tohelp'em and trust you more is

(39:13):
improve your own behavioralintegrity.
So like, when you say you'regonna do something, you do it at
a very high rate and they seethat like you commit to them to
do something, you do it on time,high quality, et cetera.
That causes people to trust youmore, to see you as more
competent.
And if you make a request,they're more likely to go above

(39:34):
and beyond.
And there's data on this outsideof behavioral analysis in the
broader behavioral scienceworld, right?
So you could focus on that as aproject for yourself and then
have the add-on benefits ofbeing able to deliver better
feedback and stuff.
I also give a few stories inthere about my own experience
with getting to the point whereyou've got a strong enough

(39:55):
relationship so the person isasking for your corrective
feedback, and then how to handlethat, how to get there.
I mean, there are, probably amillion ways to get there, but
in my experience, I usuallyfavor like a shaping approach,
so you start off talking, notfeedback and there are a whole
series of steps that you have togo through before you even get

(40:16):
to feedback.
But recognizing positive thingsand giving positive feedback,
recognizing strengths.
these are all ways to open therelationship up a little bit to,
also recognizing correctivethings, right?
So, I'll stop there, but that'srather than just like a cookbook
of steps, like here's whatworks, here's what doesn't.

(40:37):
It's more about, hey, have youreflected on how you're creating
the right environment for thefeedback to work?

Jonathan (40:46):
I really like that notion of behavioral integrity,
which seems like really obvious,but, um, but right.
Just being able to say, as aleader, or be aware of what you
are committing to, whether it'sin your one-on-ones or as you
talk about goals that you'resetting with your team.
Like, you just gotta go andfollow through on those things.
And that can start really easy,right?

(41:07):
If someone asks you for help torespond to a certain email and
you respond to that email, boom,then you've got that little win
that feels like it's on a roadto building a stronger
relationship.
I like that, man.

every unre replied email is a little dose
of extinction to the person whowas sending it.
Ooh.

Jonathan (41:28):
Yeah.
Oh, I love it.
Maybe that's an active, strategyto, put the email on six, but
you're exactly right.
Well, let's, let's go to stepfive then.
You already started talking alittle bit about, recognizing
strengths in the context ofbuilding relationship.
But, um, what's important to getright when it comes to
recognizing improvement?

Man, this is a, this is another one that, there
are entire books written onthese, uh, on this thing.
Aubrey Daniels has just abouteverything he's done since the
seventies, has involvedimproving the use of positive
reinforcement at work.
So read anything that he's everdone or watch any of his videos
and you get like a library ofstuff.
So it's a big thing to addsomething to, but I feel like

(42:08):
there might be a couple ofunique things in here.
I think the thing that I seemost in the organizations that I
work in and even a b aorganizations who, may know a
lot about positivereinforcement, don't do it
enough, or they do it in waysthat could be improved.
And here's what I mean.
Like I see, uh, examples, likesomebody delivers a presentation

(42:32):
in an organization, right?
And, a hundred people see it or.
Even 10 people see it, they goback and they meet with those 10
people on a different topic.
They're see them later in theday and no one says anything to
that person who delivered thepresentation.
They don't say a word.
They don't acknowledge the factthat the person put in whatever
work that a lot of thought andeffort into doing this thing.

(42:54):
they didn't see one good thingin that presentation.
No, I don't think that'sprobably the cause.
There were probably lots, maybehundreds of good things in the
presentation, but I'm so focus,on my stuff and it's not my job
to reinforce your behavior iskind of the way that people,
it's the unwritten thing thatpeople are telling me anyway,
that I see.
So I think the biggestopportunity is, um, it's kind of

(43:15):
like see something, saysomething, but in a positive
way.
You know, we think about that asan enforcement strategy, but
really, so many good thingshappen during the day.
You don't have to praise themall, but.
Find the high impact, higheffort ones and find a way to
say something about them orsomething to do.
Uh, write a card.

(43:36):
I mean, I give lots of examplesin the book, and you can find,
other books that do that evenbetter, where, like, 1,001 ways
to Reward your Employees.
That's kind of a famous one,right?
but it doesn't have to betangible.
my go-to is more about likesomething that's relationship
building and really, reallyleaning on the power of the
respect and the trust andeverything else that you've been

(43:57):
building, because I think that'sway more powerful than a coffee
mug or a hat or whatever you'regonna, you know, give out a
pizza party or whatever, youknow.
I mean, you could do thosethings too, but don't, rely on
tangibles.
in ABA at least, pay forperformance is really hot.
that's kind of a hot topic and Ifeel like a lot of times we're
trying to, uh, Build a processthat allows us to not have to

(44:22):
deal with this recognition partor deal with it automatically
automate it, you know, take thepeople out of it a little bit.
And I think that's a bad idea.
Um, not that pay for performanceis a bad idea or that it doesn't
work.
It it does for sure.
that being said, there arethousands of ways to fail at it
cuz it's really complex and lotsof negative downstream impacts
if you get it wrong.

(44:43):
Like, one of my colleagues atWestern Alice Dickinson studied
it for like 35 years, you know,and she's like super smart and
she still had things to studyfor that long.
So, I don't know, man, I tend tolean toward the simpler things.
If every one of your leadersfound, I don't know, 10 good
things to say about people'sperformance on their team every

(45:03):
week you, it would be adifferent place.
But they don't, they don't tendto do that.
So I think the.
High level organizing principlearound this chapter.
Um, but there's some data too,man.
So, take it down a level or anotch or a few notches, there's
some data on this too, right?
So we know that if you look atthe history of OBM literature

(45:24):
and, and all the great data thatwe have when you do task
clarification.
So like clarifying the behaviorsthat are expected from somebody,
you tend to get a 10 to 15%increase in those behaviors.
And that's been reliablyreplicated since the seventies.
Chris Anderson did a bunch ofstuff in the eighties.
They did a whole, special issue.
Chris Anderson and, and, uh,Chuck Kroll.

(45:45):
Um, check it out.
It's great reading.
It's in a whole variety ofdifferent industries,
manufacturing, real estate,hotels, and they follow the same
process every time.
Task clarification first andthen feedback, and then
recognition.
And so they made this up, right?
they didn't talk about it asfive steps, I put it in that
order.
But those things have been thereforever.

(46:06):
What they see is a 10 to 15%increase in those behaviors.
But if you add feedback andpraise, you get like 50 to a
hundred percent more.
but we leave that out.
And so that gets me thinkingabout like, well, why do we
leave out the feedback andreinforcement?
Well, there are lots of reasons.
One is that we don't know whatto say maybe.
So it's, maybe it's a knowledgeand skills thing.

(46:29):
we may not have developed arelationship so that they work
well or they feel comfortable todo.
and then the third one that Isee really frequently is that
people get too busy.
And so I think that the, septicfocus that we have on efficiency
damages our relationships,right?

(46:49):
we overdo it, man.
We are like, if I go to 20meetings, I'll be more effective
than if I go to 10, you know, orI can't say no because who's
gonna do it?
we have all these things that werun through and then we have
back to, back, to back to backto back meetings.
We're never able to thank, we'renever able to talk to our team.

(47:10):
And so therefore we don't givefeedback and reinforcement
because you've gotta run thebusiness.
the feedback and reinforcementis elective.
running the business is notelective, you know, and so the
urgent things take over.
So, I don't know.
That's what I see a lot.

Jonathan (47:24):
This is like headline fodder, John.
The septic focus on efficiencydamages our relationships.
It is so true.
And look, as an ABA field thesedays, we have to keep getting
more efficient, right?
I get it.
Like we've got wages are goingup, we've got reimbursement,
payer reimbursement rates thatare going nowhere or even, you
know, usually going down.
So everyone's thinkingefficiency.

(47:44):
But when that happens, to yourpoint, to the exclusion, Of the
relationship and taking time toinvest in it.
Like that's, it's septic.
It's septic.
I, I think it's so true.
You know, honestly, I have to bbuild time literally into my
calendar so people can'tschedule it to do a variety of
different things that they'renot, meetings doesn't make

(48:05):
others, it's just like time Ihave to do stuff.
I'm part of that is like, Hey,make sure I find To your point
earlier, I Daniels like catchpeople doing something, right?
we have to go out of our way, Ithink as leaders to find that
thing and then take the time toprovide a quick email or a phone
call or a text or a video,whatever, and do the high-fi.
I think that's important, man.

Yeah, absolutely.
Well, you know, I mean, you knowabout this.
You've given me so many greatexamples.
I mean, how did you double youracceptance rate for, BCBAs?
I.
New hires.

Jonathan (48:37):
yeah.
Right, right.
By like making the process twiceas hard, but like most
importantly, making sure theycontacted our values and, um,
and making sure they, they sawwhat authentic relationships
really meant, that we actuallylisten.
Right.
And that knowledge of anindividual recruiter, became the
knowledge of the recruiting teamand others, that's institutional

(48:59):
knowledge around what thatperson, whom we're interviewing,
um, became.
it really was all around likeshowing that we listen and pay
attention and that we wereactively helping people to
contact our values.
Yeah.

you just described building
relationships.
I think

Jonathan (49:16):
a hundred percent.
especially in this day and ageof, um, chat, G P T and ai,
look, there's a ton of thingsthat.
Computers and AI and these largelanguage models can get better
than humans.
So True.
And there's just stuff that'suniquely in our wheelhouse that
a computer AI's never gonna do.
And it feels like building thatfoundation for the strongest
relationships is one of those.

Absolutely, man.
I mean, you can Google the stepsto improve performance, but
that's not gonna make you do it.

Jonathan (49:47):
Exactly right.
Exactly right.

And by the way, I, I'm a big fan of chat g p t,
don't get me wrong.
I think that there are lots ofefficiencies that we can garner
from it, for sure.
I've been playing around with itquite a bit, and there was a
webinar I gave not too long ago,and I was doing some research on
it, and I, I thought, Hey man,let's ask chat g p t what
studies have been published inABA on, um, burnout.
And it gave me a whole seriesof, data points.

(50:12):
And then I asked what thesources were, and it gave me
fake sources.
It gave articles published bypeople who I, some of whom I
know who did not publish thatarticle.
And it was not in that journaland it was a full citation.
So like, yeah, man, it'll lie toyou for sure.

Jonathan (50:32):
Oh dude.
Okay, well that, that's blowingmy mind and we're gonna have to
have a separate follow up.
It is true.
ChatGBT I've become a big fan ofusing as well.
But it can be super compellingcuz it's like you're having a
conversation human.
So you have to be careful of notover-indexing to like, oh, what
it says is gospel and I will goout and do that.

Yeah, man, it can be really useful to someone
who's an expert in their field.
anyone in ABA who has readliterature and stuff like that
would've known, like I knew thatthey were false results, but
someone who just coming into thefield wouldn't have, and they
probably would've cited it.
And there's probably gonna bemore and more.
Stuff happening like that.
So I think it's really, um,effective when you've got a

(51:14):
field of expertise and you'rejust trying to summarize some
things or go deeper or challengeyour thinking or whatever.
But you've gotta be able to factcheck it.

Jonathan (51:25):
Amen.
Amen.
Don't abrigate yourresponsibility to finding the
truth.
So true.
Well before John, we wrap up.
you and I, in just a few shortdays, are gonna be doing a
session at ABAI together, calledbecome the Apply Behavior
Analysis Leader.
Your team deserves seven OBMstrategies that can immediately
level up your leadership.
I gotta tell you, I am so stokedto be able to, present alongside

(51:49):
you, man.
This is like a longtime dream inmine.
you're gonna be giving awaycopies of your book and tell me
on Monday of, of ABAI right herein Denver, you are the invited O
B M address.
Tell me more about that.

Yeah.
Uh, thanks.
man, I'm looking forward to theworkshop too.
if any of you listening canregister, we'd love to have you
there.
and if not, check in with us andwe can get you some info on that
and stuff.
Um, but we're gonna have ablast, man.
It's gonna be super fun.
so really looking forward toworking with you there.
it's gonna be interesting andeducational.
It's not gonna be like death byPowerPoint.

(52:22):
Bullet point, blah.
It'll be, it'll be fun.
hopefully my invited address isalso fun, but I think it'll be
less fun than us doing aworkshop.
but, uh, yeah, it's an OBMaddress and it's, it's called
Creating an Environment for OMSolutions to Succeed.
And it's really in keeping withthe book and all the things that
we've talked about here, you canimagine what some of the content

(52:42):
is there, right?
it's psychological safety, it'screating relationships and
actually measuring yourrelationships.
It's having effectiveconversations and asking good
questions, and all theleadership stuff that really
goes behind, uh, making O B Mwork or making ABA a work for
that matter.
I mean, there are lots of peoplein the field these days, uh, you

(53:04):
know, Nicole Gravina and GregHanley and some others who have
been talking about developingrapport.
It's not unlike that.
I'm just diving in and maybeusing some softer words than,
uh, than rapport.
But we all know it's a thing.
Why do we act like it's not, youknow, like let's start talking
about it and studying it.
And I think it's a challenge forus to start bringing this stuff

(53:24):
to the forefront and figuringout, how can we become more
effective, continue to improve?
So that's, that's what I'mdoing.
That's at noon, uh, on Monday.
And, I think at one, rightafterwards there's a meet and
greet for the speakers and I'llbe involved in that.
So you can come and hang outand, I don't know, ask me some
questions and challenge some ofthe thinking and stuff.

(53:44):
And then directly after that,there's a, book signing.
So I'll be signing my book atthe bookstore.
At, I think it's at two.
It's all on the calendar.

Jonathan (53:53):
Rock on.
Well, listeners, if you aregonna be at a B A I, that is a
do not Miss session.
go check out that, that invitedBM keynote on that Monday.
And yes, We promise you it willnot be a dull workshop.
We're gonna crush it.
John, where can people find youonline?

Uh, my, uh, my new website for ABA leaders is
dr john austin.com.
and I've got an existing websitethat's more focused on safety,
and that's reaching results.com.
So either one of those, all overLinkedIn or try to be and love
to connect with, with anyleaders on LinkedIn.
I wanna also offer, maybe you'regonna have this, but hopefully

(54:31):
we can offer a link up to yourlisteners where they can get a
free audiobook download of mybook and, uh, they can check it
out.
If you like it, maybe you canbuy it, you'll be able to get it
on Amazon, um, around the timeof a b i at the end of May,
beginning of June,

Jonathan (54:48):
uh, who does not like, uh, free 99.
I will absolutely make sure thatthere's a link to that free
audio download in the shownotes.
All right, sir, are you readyfor your hot take questions?

Yeah, I think I'm a little scared.

Jonathan (55:04):
Oh, here we go.
Which Smurf would you be?

Yeah, I, I don't know if it exists, but I'd
say, uh, rocking Smurf.
That's not a smurf, is it?

Jonathan (55:17):
I don't think so, but dude, why would there not have
been a rock and smurf?
Oh,

like, it's like symbol is like, like that

Jonathan (55:25):
with the rock out.
Yeah.
We're making for, for, if you'renot on YouTube, we do have a
YouTube channel.
Go check us out.
We're making the, uh, the rocksign right now.
There needed to be one of those.
Hey, chat, chat, G p t,generative ai.
I mean, you can like, createthose kinds of things these
days.
So maybe a listener's gonna dothat.
Uh, come share it back to us.
What, what element on theperiodic table do you most

(55:46):
identify

with?
I have got, I, I have no idea.
I'm gonna say, you know, uh,helium because I'm feeling
lightheaded at you asking methat question.

Jonathan (55:59):
Nice tie, dude.
What year will AI enslavehumanity?

I'm gonna go with, uh, 2025.
I don't know.
It's gonna happen fast and AInever sleeps, man.

Jonathan (56:14):
Right?
You know, that's spot on.
I mean, maybe I take the underon that, but the progress we're
seeing in like days and weeksthat you used to see would take
years and decades.
We are at a whole different pacethat I don't think we fully
appreciated yet.
So, oh, not too far off, butwe'll, hope you're wrong.
John, what's the most playedsong on your Spotify and Apple

(56:34):
Music list for 2023 so far?

I don't have the, uh, I don't have the actual
data.
I should have that.
but I'm gonna say it is gottabe, um, it's gotta be a song by
Snarky Puppy, off of their newalbum.
One of those songs, cuz thatone's been on continuous Rotate,
for a few months.
Yeah.

Jonathan (56:57):
That is some outstanding new jazz.
I mean, some of the mostproficient musicians alive today
are in Snarky Puppy.
Go watch their stuff on YouTubeand watch how they record.
Oh, it is mine.
Good call, dude.
What's your 2023 word of theyear?
I'm

gonna say, um, relationships.

Jonathan (57:21):
Well done.
That's a tough one with that micdrop.
John, this has been an absolutepleasure.
Thanks for coming back on thepod.
Can't wait to see you at ABAI

thanks for having me, man.
I'm looking forward to it.
We're gonna have a lot of fun.

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