June 8, 2023 • 42 mins
Amber's a classic CEO/Entrepreneur/Founder: she's started an ABA practice, a global non-profit, she's starred in documentaries. I'll highlight two (of many) things I appreciated about our conversation 1) her international non-profit - focusing on parent-training & parent-led interventions - not only addresses supply/demand imbalances for BCBAs/RBTs globally ... it's potentially a model that payers here in the US (that's you, Tricare) are actively exploring; could that be a future for ABA? 2) she's a passionate advocate for women founders/entrepreneurs, as am I. Enjoy, kind listener!
Resources:
>Amber ...
on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amber-nelms-54400170/
by email: amber@triangleaba.com
>Triangle ABA (Amber's ABA practice): https://triangleaba.com/
>Global Behavior & Wellness Alliance (Amber's non-profit): https://www.theglobalbehaviorwellnessalliance.org/
>Neurothrive (Amber's Podcast):
>The Viewpoint with Dennis Quaid (Amber's documentary): https://www.viewpointproject.com/?gclid=CjwKCAiAl9efBhAkEiwA4TorirceN55KcYg9R8FvBxObN_V6fFYiVS6o0r5e...
Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions
Intro/outro Music Credit: song "Tailor Made" by Yari and bensound.com
Give us a rating at Apple Music, Spotify or your favorite podcast channel:
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/building-better-businesses-in-aba/id1603909082
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0H5LzHYPKq5Qnmsue9HTwn
Check out Element RCM to learn more about billing & insurance support for Applied Behavior Analysis providers
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/element-rcm
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elementrcm/
Follow the Pod:
Web: https://elementrcm.ai/building-better-businesses-in-aba/
LinkedIn: https://www.instagram.com/buildingbetterbusinessesaba/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/buildingbetterbusinessesa...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan (00:30):
My guest today is Amber Nelms.
Amber is a B C B A and the c e oand founder of Triangle ABA A in
North Carolina.
As a mother of a child withautism, Amber knows what it's
like to be on both sides of theequation when teaching and
learning how to parent anindividual diagnosed with
autism, she's also founder ofthe nonprofit Global Behavior
and Wellness Alliance.
(00:51):
Amber, welcome to the pod.
Amber Nelms (00:53):
Hey.
Well, I am happy to be here,Jonathan.
Thanks for having me.
Jonathan (00:57):
I am thrilled that you're here and you're a breath
of fresh hair.
Amber, you have such a greatperspective, you're so engaging
I wanna start with triangle A, BA.
You are a c e o, and a founder.
Um, like what do you wish youhad known, uh, that you know now
going back when you startedTriangle?
Amber Nelms (01:18):
Woo.
That is a really great question.
Well, actually, I'll tie it backto actually the here and the
now.
How about this?
The one thing that I put is ahuge value and I tell all of my
staff and put big emphasis on,uh, is learning and growing.
And so I think what I would sayfor.
When I first started is like,you will always be okay.
(01:42):
As long as you have thatmentality, you'll be alright.
You don't have to have all ofthe answers, but you do have to
be able to get yourself back upand say, all right, what else do
I need to grow in?
What else do I need to learn?
It's just the next step.
And if you have that mentality,the possibilities are endless.
you shut your world and make itreally small when you decide,
(02:05):
you know what, that wasn'texactly how I wanted it to go,
or I didn't get to do this andit didn't go how I designed it,
so therefore I should just stopright now.
Um, if you have that mentality,you, you miss the opportunities
that are in front of you, youknow?
Um, that's what I always say,mistakes are just learning
opportunities.
So that's what I think I wouldsay, that I learned a part of
(02:28):
the, uh, the process plus,caring for others and seeing the
individuality in everybody andhow we're all so unique.
But if we come together with asimilar vision, with our values
aligned, there is nothing thatcan stop you.
There isn't, you know, if youhave those similar values
(02:51):
together and you're, you'reinspired together to do that,
then a, an organization cangrow.
Jonathan (02:59):
It's so true, and it's what you're describing and I
absolutely agree that this isthe difference between a growth
mindset and a fixed mindset andas an entrepreneur and founder.
And so if you don't have agrowth mindset, dude, you're
like cooked.
Right?
But that's part of theexperience of being an
entrepreneur.
Amber Nelms (03:16):
Mm-hmm.
For sure.
And then how do you cultivatethat with the rest of yourself?
How do you create an environmentwhere people feel safe to be
creative?
And one of the big things is Ihave a, a lot of entrepreneurs
within my company, and Icelebrate that.
I really want them to have newideas, new, um, concepts and
(03:40):
say, Hey, could we try this?
if it works and it makesbusiness sense, I wanna listen
to them.
Because I know I've worked atplaces before starting
Triangular ABA, where anytime Ibrought up anything sort of new,
it wasn't celebrated.
It was like, well, we alreadyhave something.
We have how we're gonna makemoney and how we're gonna do
something.
And lady, Don't mess up theflow.
(04:02):
several of my employees havetheir own podcast, which I'm
like so excited.
That's like how it should be.
We should all be amazing peoplehaving interests together, um,
doing something great and itshouldn't be a place where no
one feels safe to be able to dothat.
So.
Jonathan (04:18):
Yeah, that feels really important.
And what's interesting, I don'tthink I'm aware of other
organizations in our field thatactually truly celebrate
entrepreneurs being part of theorganization.
So I wanna get specific, Amber,and like what are the kinds of
things you do to create thatenvironment of psychological
safety and nurturing the innerentrepreneur in your team?
Amber Nelms (04:38):
Whew, man.
You are asking some good ones,Jonathan.
I like it.
My brain is moving.
I like to be challenged.
Um, how do I cultivate that?
I reward it first.
That's one thing I can stand on,that I really actually do.
Whatever I say that I'm valueheavily.
I actually back it up withactionable rewards.
(05:00):
So, like I said, uh, forlearning and growing, a lot of
people, um, don't pay for allstaff meetings for like their
RBT and their VPs to be, uh,covered, right?
Like we make sure they get paidtheir normal rate for that, not
an admin rate.
And our lower rate, cause we'resaying we value that, I value
that, I reward that.
(05:20):
I'm actually at NCABA, which isthe North Carolina conference.
For, behavior analysts rightnow, and I paid for my staff to
go, we're at an Airbnb together,so I'm rewarding that.
now in regards toentrepreneurship, I think it
comes down to what I justalready said in the fact that.
When someone brings me a newconcept, or even if they come
(05:43):
and tell me, Hey, this could bebetter at triangle ABA, instead
of getting extremely, like, whatdo you mean?
Like it could be better.
Uh, I'm like, yes.
That's awesome.
You're joining in.
Together to make this better.
You have an idea.
You thought about something assimple, you know, like one of my
rbt, um, just was consideringhow the toys were laid out on
(06:06):
the shelf, and if they were donea certain way, instead of being
like, stop bothering me, stoptalking to me about this.
He thought through it.
He was willing.
To take the lead and to do it,then I'm gonna reward it.
I'm gonna pay for him to doextra time.
I'm gonna make sure he's outtathe schedule so that he can do
it.
So I think that's one of the bigthings.
That's as simple as our field ofknowing reinforcement.
(06:29):
Reward people for doing it.
Don't just talk about it.
That's one thing that reallybugs me.
People talk about their values,but they have no clear way they
can show they're actually doingit.
Don't say it's something thatyou do in your company if you
don't actually have a way toback it up.
Jonathan (06:46):
Well, I think it's super cool that, um, that you
pay for learning opportunity.
Opportunities, like all staffmeetings, and I mean, the fact
that you're NCABA's annualconference and you're all in an
Airbnb, like what better way tobring people together and show
alignment, right?
Between the values that youpurport and you know what you're
doing and, and the communityyou're building.
(07:06):
I think that's, uh, that'spretty amazing.
Are there any, interesting,sessions or topics or things
that you've been learning atNCABA
Amber Nelms (07:15):
well, I actually missed one of the learning
opportunities.
All of them are all doing, I wasreally sad.
So I'm here with you right now,so I actually haven't gone to
any yet.
So I don't know.
I will have to get back to youon that.
there'll be lots that I'lllearn, so, I'll have more to
tell you.
Jonathan (07:31):
and I'm sorry that I'm getting in the way of your
learning.
these, conferences are what fillmy bucket and, and especially
the learning and how you bringthe learning back.
Right.
one of the big things I havearound conferences are like, you
know, I'll go and I'll getinspired and then I come back
and either I'm just like, blah,to my teams, we've gotta do like
45 different things.
I've learned that that's not themost effective way to bring
(07:52):
money back, to be clear.
but the other thing that, whatI'm most fearful of is, you
know, people go and get richedand inspired and they've learned
all these new things.
Then it's like, how do you sharethat back?
With the rest of theorganization.
Right.
This idea of like learning, doyou have any tips or tricks for,
how you bring that learning backto the org?
Amber Nelms (08:09):
it comes back to the same thing, right?
If somebody's very inspired,they're more likely to want to,
go do something about it, right?
usually when someone's veryinspired and they actually have
an actionable item that theywanna do, I'm, I'm going make
sure they at least have some.
Time dedicated to that.
All of my BCAs, definitely dothat.
(08:31):
they have very unique differentthings they're very interested
in.
and that's a part of one of mycore values at Triangle ABA too
is called See the individual.
So say, you know, one of myBCBAs is really into like, how
do we do aba?
Well, almost like in a schoolenvironment, how do we set up
that one of them into, um,Really what are the core skills
(08:52):
needed for learning and spendingextra time talking about that.
And so she has her set asidetime to do those projects too.
Um, and she's also really bigabout developing students.
So I would say basically, Justbeing intentional of saying,
okay, that's what you'reinterested in.
(09:13):
honestly, Jonathan, this is thefirst time we're doing this, so
I don't really have the answer.
Probably if I had to guess, whatI will do is sit down with each
one of them, see the individual,like I said, Ask them, Hey, what
inspired you?
So I get to know again, whatmakes their mind and what
inspires them.
What did you learn that youreally, really love?
What can you do about that rightnow in your practice, in your
(09:35):
cases?
And what could you do in theorganization?
What would make you thrive?
How would you come alive doingthat?
And once we do have like asession thing, and there again,
back to your original question,how do you let entrepreneurship
grow?
That's how you do it.
Because they're driven by theirown inspiration and you're
creating this framework to allowthem to be free to do that.
(09:56):
So it, it never feels like a topdown perspective is just like
everyone coming together towardsthe thing.
And I think that's what CEOs aresupposed to do.
CEOs are supposed to be.
skilled at bringing peopletogether.
They're not supposed to be like,Hey, everybody, just do, do, do
only this.
Really, that's what their coreskill is.
They able to see patterns,inspire vision and bring the
(10:18):
right people together to do thejob.
Jonathan (10:22):
It's so unbelievably true what you just described.
I've always said like my mostimportant role as a CEO is to,
Communicate the vision build andalign the team around the vision
and just relentlessly execute.
But man, that core value ofseeing individual is super cool.
Well, speaking of CEOs, one ofthe things I know you and I are
super passionate about and, andfor me it's cuz I've got two
(10:44):
daughters whom I want to haveevery opportunity in the world
to be a c e O and to be afounder and writ large in our
country.
There are many fewer femalefounders and CEOs than there are
male.
That's bullshit.
It's just not the world I wannalive in.
I know you are passionate aboutgetting the word out around,
making a difference here.
So tell me more about like, howdo we make this happen?
(11:04):
How do we change this world
Amber Nelms (11:05):
I mean, for one, it's just standing up and being
vulnerable and telling yourstory, and then also believing
you have something to share withthe world.
First off, you know, like that'sone thing I know I want to do is
be able to, I haven't done thisyet, but I'm about to launch
Neuro Thrive.
It's just a podcast that's gonnabe about, How do you thrive in
(11:26):
the most, well, sort of way asusing behavioral analysis while
being somebody that'sneurodivergent.
And actually this is aninteresting fact.
A lot of founders and CEOs thatare women oftentimes, are
neurodivergent.
Very interesting, an interestingfact.
Um, so being able to celebratethat and understand that about
(11:50):
yourself I think is really huge.
Um, being.
comfortable with standing out, Ithink is another factor.
I was actually just talking toseveral other entrepreneurs
about this, like, I can't thinkof many women right now doing
the thing that I want to do thatI can look to.
You know, like I have differentbusiness guys that I like to
(12:12):
listen to and listen to theirpodcast or, look up to and, be
inspired by.
But a big thing for me isinspiration.
honestly is being able to notsee somebody do something
perfect, but they just got upand they did what they needed to
do and they're willing to letyou see the journey of that.
You know, I don't know.
(12:33):
I know I'm gonna do it and thenI hope many other people will
follow and do it too, because itdoes.
I'm gonna have to be comfortablewith people seeing me.
Not be getting it right everysingle time and saying different
things like values that I careabout, and hope that others will
wanna follow that too and startdoing that in their businesses.
(12:56):
you know, it's also just knowingthat you have.
Good ideas and good thoughtprocesses, and you're like, you
know, I wish people wouldlistened to this.
Like, I know it's good shit.
I know it's good shit becauseI'm listening to other people
with good shit, and then I'mputting out the, the, does that
make sense?
I, it's not that I'm justsitting around being like, oh, I
know all the stuff.
Like in my own head, it's like,no, I'm always learning and
(13:17):
growing.
Taking what I'm learning andthen rethinking through it, and
then put it into action.
And then I can be like, I canshare what I just put into
action, and then somebody elsemight be able to use it.
So I know it's good in thatregard.
To be able to do that, you haveto be willing to say No, it's
good.
And it's okay.
Jonathan (13:35):
I love this idea of like the good shit sniff test
that resonates with me.
And by the way, we willabsolutely drop a link of the
show notes to your new upcomingpodcast, neuro Thrive.
Um, that sounds phenomenal.
let me pivot cuz you are an, anentrepreneur at heart.
You've started a whole varietyof endeavors and one of those,
and this is a fascinating fact.
Story I'd love for you to share.
the nonprofit that you started,the Global Behavior and Wellness
(13:58):
Alliance, tell me a little bitmore about it.
Amber Nelms (14:01):
Well, that's very new.
That's my new baby I'm workingon.
But I'm super passionate aboutthat too.
I start, I very excited about,and I know it's the right to do.
actually before startingTriangle, I originally wanted to
do a non profit but it wasn'tthe right time.
and most things that I start,are born outta a need of things
(14:22):
that I keep seeing.
Like it's not in the world and Iwant it in the world.
Right?
Like the same thing we weretalking about.
There's not enough CEO womenthat I can listen to for
inspirational leaders.
I can't put on my headphones andbe pumped up to be like, oh, I'm
gonna do this shit.
Like, I don't, there's notenough women to do that.
And I'm like, I want there to berepresentation, right?
So I wanna do that.
And make that a reality in thisworld.
(14:43):
And the Goal, behavior andWellness Alliance, how that was
formed.
I actually lived in India forfive years.
Um, my son, you know, who wasdiagnosed with autism, I tried
to get him help.
And therapy in India first.
So I saw how there wasn't a lotof resources and once I decided,
that there was no more realviable options for him, I said,
(15:06):
in my mind I will be back oneday and I will go back to India
and I will.
Figure out a way to help theseother mothers that I'm leaving
behind I was telling them I wasleaving and they were just like,
oh, I wish I could come.
I've heard back in the States,they have so many options.
and I thought, well, I gotta goback.
I have to figure out a way.
(15:26):
one of the other passion piecesthat I really care about, which
is how I became a behavioranalyst, is I first started as a
parent as therapist model.
I would never have understoodand loved ABA enough.
Hadn't someone taken the time toshow me basically how to be a
therapist.
So I hope I'm tying this allback so people can understand.
(15:48):
So talking about theinternational side, I still was
traveling back to India forshort periods, even though I had
moved back to the state.
when this was happening, wewere, getting ABA services back
in the States and it was oldschool back then.
You know, like the book.
For taking data and everything.
They taught me how to do that.
The parent therapist model waslearning how to do dtt, take
(16:10):
data in the book.
I would go for a month back toIndia, practice all of the
pieces, that he would need anddo all of that with him.
And then that's when I realizedlike, wow, I really love this.
And it is very possible if youfind and you're able to teach
parents basically why it'sessential.
How can be practical parentswill really join in with you.
(16:32):
I think there really is apossibility.
I just don't think the necessityin the US makes it happen as
much, but there is a huge, solet me bring it all back
together.
There is, I was just in Belizefor the nonprofit, the Global
Behavior Wellness Alliance.
I met with many families therein Belize and that is what they
constantly are just basicallysaying it's okay, fine.
(16:53):
I will be the parent astherapist model, just teach me
how to do it.
I'll do it because I knowthere's not gonna be enough
people.
so the Global Behavior andWellness Alliance includes that
model with teaching a curriculumonline first, so the parents can
get caught up.
And then I want, so sign upguys, 2024.
(17:15):
We're doing adventure trips, sobehavior analysts that wanna
sign up and be apply for it.
You need to show your resume andyou're somebody that could
actually come with us.
We're going to be taking thosepeople that fit the criteria, be
able to do awesome, fun stuff.
While actually making adifference in this world, that
(17:35):
is what the Global Behavior andWellness Alliance is about.
So, I'll make sure the familieswould've gotten the main core
knowledge online and then we'llgo do in vivo training, which is
really what people need, right?
More practice to be able to seeand feedback in person.
and then I know there's a lot ofpeople that wanna see the world.
I know I do.
I love travel.
So come on, come join me.
(17:57):
2024, sign up on the website.
Um, yeah, let's go do somereally cool shit together.
Jonathan (18:04):
You'll have to keep me on your email invite list.
I also love travel.
You know, I was born in Japan.
My parents were diplomats, so wemoved around a whole bunch and
I've gotten to live in Asia andAfrica and elsewhere, and so
I've been super fortunate.
So yes.
That sounds amazing.
I love that you're opening upthe world to behavior analysis
and this parents.
Training model and vice versa,helping to open up people and
(18:26):
BCBAs here in the US tointernational experience because
that's been foundational in mylife.
But it's interesting this ideaof a parent as therapist model,
which at least internationallyhelps to address some of the,
just the supply demandimbalance, right?
Of their not enoughpractitioners.
And though Amber.
Right here in the US some payersare starting to talk about and
(18:49):
doing research on, that parentas a therapist model, focusing
more on parent training.
And tricare as an example, isone who's doing that.
But any thoughts around what wecan learn, or how to incorporate
that model much better righthere in our own country?
Amber Nelms (19:04):
Ooh, we need to do it a lot.
I mean, that's what I'm workingon right now and I'm excited
about.
just back to the researchthough.
The research does show theparents that are highly involved
plus.
comprehensive treatment withaba.
That's the kids that make themost success, right?
How do we do it well in thestate?
Well, I think one of the waysthat we do it is actually making
(19:27):
ABA way more practical.
You know what I did in researchfor the nonprofit?
I spent the majority of my timewith going through all the
materials for parent training,no offense to other people that
it's not very.
A lot of it's not good.
I mean, I know there's morestuff coming out and I haven't
probably seen it all and I don'tlike to be negative, It's not
(19:47):
that it's terrible, it's juststill not very practical and
it's not written in the languagestill that families are going to
connect to one big thing and oneproject that I'm working on and
I need a PhD.
Level, uh, B C B A to come joinme and do research on this is,
(20:08):
um, a very interesting factor.
I think that would make a bigdifference is being able to have
the families understand thebehavior analytic material first
by look going kind of backwardsby seeing the problem first,
like something's going on intheir current life with their
child, being able to detectthat.
(20:29):
And then being able to practicewhatever skill that you're
trying to teach them with thatactual problem.
So they're working from amotivation standpoint, from the
right MO I've anyone do thisbefore, ever.
No one has, and I really want todo it.
Now, my, my area of expertise ismore the creative kind of brain,
(20:52):
right?
Like, and finding where there'sa missing hole.
I'm not a researcher, so I needsomebody to help me do it.
so I feel like that is a hugefactor.
I've tested it, and my ownclinic with my families, and I
see the light bulb come off.
They just go crazy for itbecause it's going from their
mo.
Instead of giving peopleinformation, which there again,
(21:13):
I stick with themes.
I do that with my staff and Itry to do that with my clients
to the same concept.
Start with their motivation.
I mean, one big factor for me,two missing in the applied
behavioral analysis.
Is we don't always actually doit across everything.
That's one thing I would say,like ABA could be used for
(21:34):
everything.
Why do we not see, like, wait aminute, you would do it with
your clients that way.
Why would you not do it with theparent?
Why all of a sudden do we justdecide not to do that same
concept with them?
Why do we not do pairing withparents?
Why do we not do, thinking aboutMOS with parents?
Why, why, why?
if you think the science reallyworks, why would you not do it?
Jonathan (21:56):
Wait, wait, wait.
Hang on.
So this is really important.
So why do we not pair with.
Parents knowing how importantbuilding the therapeutic
relationship is,
Amber Nelms (22:06):
do we have systems for that?
Do you know anybody that's doingthat?
For one interesting thing, I wasdoing an interview with someone
else the other day, um, and theywere saying, I actually have
data collection around myparenting procedures for my
clients.
A lot of places don't have anydata collection around that.
Why is there nothing about anysystems?
(22:27):
There's no research about that,about pairing before you do
parent training, nothing.
And that is the big, huge alarmthing around parent training
that I see.
Actually, I missed one otherpoint.
The other point that I see thatis a problem, and I think this
is just training in general, andit may be because I am
neurodivergent and I'm all aboutfiguring out integrations.
(22:50):
that's the way my brain works.
I'm about systems, integrationsystems, how they cross over and
I'm good, uh, pick up patterns.
So that's one strength I think,or a big strength that I have in
figuring out those pieces.
But I'm really big in generalabout training.
why do we train in one-offtraining and topics?
(23:10):
And if you even look at the RBTtask list, It doesn't look
holistic.
It looks like 0.1, 0.2.
They don't even make sense intheir alignment on the task
list.
So when your brain goes toorganize that information, it
doesn't naturally fit together.
There is some parts of the RBTtasks that I could think.
(23:33):
Like, well, data collection orcontinuous measurements under
discontinuous, at least thosetwo topics fit, fit together.
But organizing information,everything I've seen in regards
to parent training, I mean,maybe Hanley has recently come
out with something that was alittle bit more holistic and
seemed to built around eachother.
So I was excited about that.
His parent training does that,uh, the best that I've seen more
(23:55):
recently, but a lot of theparent training material where
it's like, oh, we're gonna talkabout ABC data.
Randomly, we're just doing that.
We're just gonna do a one-offABC training.
That's all the time I see it.
Oh, we're gonna do sevensessions, seven steps to
instructional control.
Nothing is wrong with any ofthose things.
And even the training is prettygood.
Like just holistically in thefact like we win to the topic.
(24:17):
Where is the people teaching howeverything fits together?
Where's the integration systemtraining talk?
That's what I wanna be known fortoo.
I don't wanna figure out how todo it, maybe because that's how
I think.
But ABA really opened up for meas a more way of life when I
started thinking about that'swhy this matters.
(24:40):
This is why this matters.
So that's why it all goestogether.
Not know this one subject matterof discontinuous measurement,
like the back of my hand, butit's never thought about in
relation to anything else.
How are things related?
Teachings about that.
Sorry, that was a very longtangent, but I've been thinking
(25:00):
about it a ton.
Jonathan (25:01):
Yeah.
I wanna double click on, youmentioned neuro divergence and
how that helps you see patternsand thinking about organizing.
mechanisms and principles.
and I was diagnosed with ADHD asan adult, and I think about it
as my superpower and I'm, I'mneurodivergent.
How, how is yourneurodivergence?
Um, and tell me more what you'velearned about yourself, your
practice, and who you are onyour neurodivergent journey.
Amber Nelms (25:23):
So, oh, great.
Well, I was also diagnosed withadhd, and that's an interesting,
factor for most women.
a lot of women don't find outthey have ADHD until they're in
their thirties.
That's so common.
It's such a common trend.
and honestly, once I found thatout, a lot of my life starts
making sense.
(25:44):
Tons of things.
So, now whenever I'm on likeTikTok or anything and I see
something about, adhd andhonestly it just makes me feel
not alone.
That's the biggest thing whenyou talk about it from a
personal level.
Now, when I read those storiesor I actually listen to other
podcasts of women like me, Andthen I'm like, oh, you have that
(26:04):
similar story where you didn'treally know which group that you
really fit into because you likea lot of male dominated
activities, but you are afemale, gender or you have a lot
of risk taking behaviors.
but then at the same time I'veseen a lot of negative, and
maybe this goes back to likecelebrating Neurodivergence,
there's still also a lot of.
(26:24):
People that often talk aboutADHD in a negative connotation
and autism actually, right?
as if there's something brokenor messed up instead of the
beauty of celebratingneurodivergence is, no, it's
not.
It's not that you're somehow alesser individual, it's that
your mind works maybedifferently than neurotypical
people, and there aredifficulties with that.
(26:47):
There is no doubt because of myadhd, there are times where, I
have a hard time, processingauditory information.
If somebody's coming out with mewith a lot of different
instructions, the executivefunctioning part of my brain is
like, whoa, I cannot put that inthe right order.
so, but instead of necessarilysaying, oh, that person's
broken, no, it's just that partof the brain doesn't work like
(27:09):
somebody else.
I need skills, I need to learnskills, I need to know that
that's true for me.
Put certain, um, parametersaround for myself to be
successful.
So that's what ABA should bedoing for somebody with autism.
one thing I do like, sorry, Iwent on a tangent, but I wanna
talk about this so beautiful tome.
is that, uh, you know, the wholeold school aba, we just wanna
(27:31):
make, Somebody with autismbecome typically developing and
that argument that ABA is reallyharmful.
And I'm like, well, that's not,when we do a triangle aba, I'm
big about saying you arebeautiful as a neurodivergent
individual.
It's not that we wanna make youneurotypical, we just wanna give
you the skills that you need soyou can see the world.
(27:52):
More because Hey, why do youthink that that autism show
about dating came out onNetflix?
There's a lot of'em wanna havemore skills to do that.
So they do have things they wantand they wanna see the world
more.
Plus the beautiful part is youwant the world to see them.
There's so many cool people thatare neuro divergent.
They're artists, they'reinteresting, my son is a
fantastic artist.
(28:14):
He is funny, he's interesting.
He, has lots of friends now, butif he had not been given the
skills that he needed, the worldwould've missed a beautiful
person that, has so much tooffer.
that's not exactly what you'veasked me.
So there you go.
This is a case and example ofneurodivergent.
(28:34):
You gave me one thing and I wentbam, bam, and gave you lot
Jonathan (28:39):
Hey, it's all good.
Amber, tell me about the fiveminute documentary you recently
recorded.
Amber Nelms (28:45):
Um, well that's another dream that I've always
had is to be on TV and be ableto talk to people about ABA from
a positive standpoint.
And that's what I got to do,Jonathan I am so excited! Dennis
Quaid I guess created Aeducational documentary.
it's called The Viewpoint.
(29:05):
And so someone from hisorganization reached out to me
and they said, there's a lot ofpeople in North Carolina wanting
to know more about aba, so wouldyou be interested in doing a
documentary that talks about itand why it's important?
I was like, uh, hell yes.
That has always been somethingthat I was passionate about.
Cause many years back I.
Went on YouTube and then likewent on the internet and there
(29:27):
was, and there still is a ton ofthings about how ABAs.
Isn't good.
Right.
And like that's discouraging tome.
So being able to disseminate thepositives that are going on or
being able to talk about beingneurodivergent and that it can
still be celebrated from thatperspective is huge for me
because I know ABA has helped myown personal life.
(29:48):
I use it to be the most, well Ipersonally can to help my own
child and I help a lot of otherpeople.
So the uh, documentary is goingto be out on.
NBC or Fox, I think, as well asthe Discovery Channel.
I think those are the topchannels.
I think it's supposed to be on.
(30:09):
It's coming out in April.
It's very short.
Like I said, it's only fiveminutes, but it's enough to talk
about, what ABA is.
my son's on it talking about howit helped him and I talked
briefly on it.
so I'm happy to get the word outso people can see, and be open
to it.
without enough information outthere that's positive.
(30:29):
Some people don't even give achance, so,
Jonathan (30:33):
That's awesome.
I can't wait to see it.
We'll drop a link to that aswell in the show notes.
and well tell me, Amber, what'sone thing every ABA business
owner should start doing and onething they should stop doing?
Amber Nelms (30:50):
Oh, that's a good one.
Well do your best to not getbought out.
stay strong.
That's all I have to say.
That's what the Global Behaviorand Wellness Alliance is about,
like figuring out how we cancome together as an alliance
and, and say we wanna do goodquality work without ending up
in debt by any means.
and then we are a answering tosomebody else that doesn't know
(31:13):
the field.
I mean, and not judging becauseI understand to grow to the next
level.
I can see the temptations allover the place and.
I don't wanna say that.
That's not even something thatcouldn't be the right answer.
I'm just saying be careful, Iguess, who you end up aligning
yourself with, even if you haveto make that decision.
Because if they don't care aboutgood quality and you're
(31:35):
answering to that, it, that hasbeen one thing I've been
thankful for, that I haven'tdone and I have had to grow much
slower.
And I know if I had.
Taken, the offers that peoplesaid like, I could have grown to
like five clinics.
Right?
That would be cool.
That would be exciting, and itwould look good on paper.
But would I have been happydoing that?
(31:55):
No.
Cause I most likely would've hadto make compromises.
Like right now, I.
Paid for several of my RBTsnormal rate pay to just be outta
the schedule so they can supportthe other rbts.
That's just unheard of.
No one does that.
It's not a good moneymakingmodel, but I know from what I
dreamed about for like socialgroups and good actual learning
(32:19):
environments, I dreamed of thatwhen I was a RBT of somebody
actually taking the time Sothat's one thing I would say.
I know your financing will thinkyou're crazy for that idea.
And it isn't great necessarilyto be paying somebody that when
there's no billables coming in.
But it can make a hugedifference on morale and you are
(32:39):
backing up what you said.
You're not just talking but notbacking.
Like I get to show myself I amcommitted to that.
This is how I'm showing you.
I'm committed to you being ableto have the best quality.
Cuz I know you need somebody to,um, set up social groups and be
like the main person organizinghow the gonna be.
(33:01):
and for somebody to have thetime able to do that and paid do
it not just a student wheneverthey hear and then can do it,
that's not sustainable.
Who can do that?
So that's one thing I would say.
To do and then I told what notto do.
I do think that's pretty unique.
When I was, interacting withsome other behavior analysts
(33:21):
from other companies, most ofthem had never heard of that and
they thought, I don't knowanybody doing that hardly.
Maybe universities, there's somethat have that funding, but a
typical ABA company that's nothappening often.
Jonathan (33:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, and by the way, I thinkthat's, that's fantastic that
you're paying your team.
Um, Coming back to Lion of DearValues for learning, for
shadowing others and for, um,uh, doing things that will, that
make them feel like you'reinvesting in them a as opposed
to just minimizing them as anexpense.
(33:54):
Well, Amber, where can peoplefind you online?
Amber Nelms (33:57):
Well, uh, triangleaba.com.
you can find me on there, youcan find me, on the global
Behavior and wellnessalliance.org website too.
those are the two places, or youcan email me
amber@triangleaba.com so thoseare the top three places.
Um, and yeah, I'm always readyto chat and collaborate with
(34:20):
others this work.
Is inspiring to me no matterwhat.
Like even if Triangle ABAstomorrow, I'd be figuring out
somehow how to help get a to.
So I'm just be doing this, so to
Jonathan (34:37):
Awesome.
We'll drop those links to theshow notes.
Uh, are you ready for the hottake questions?
Amber Nelms (34:42):
sure.
Let's do it.
Jonathan (34:44):
Here we go.
Rapid fire, uh, you're on yourdeathbed.
Amber.
What's the one thing you wannabe remembered for?
Amber Nelms (34:51):
That I wasn't afraid to live my life in a way
that could make the biggestimpact, and that I wasn't afraid
to tell others what could make adifference in their life, but I
didn't shy away from that.
And I was brave with them.
I told'em whether they loved itor not, and it made a
difference.
they can remember that one thingthat I said that said, oh shit,
(35:16):
maybe I should go for that.
Like that's what I wanna beremembered for, because that
could live beyond you.
And most people are justwandering through life
aimlessly.
I just wanna be someone thatlives my life with intention and
then, Sees others and says, waita minute, I see you.
You're amazing.
if you did this, this could beawesome.
(35:38):
And even if it's controversialsometimes, and they'll still
remember that because I wasbrave enough to do it, to bring
it up, you know,
Jonathan (35:48):
Yeah.
What's your most importantself-care practice?
Amber Nelms (35:53):
uh, meditation and yoga.
Actually lots.
That's the one thing I'velearned to do really well.
Take care of myself.
I used to be terrible.
Now I love myself.
and this is the funniest thing,I never realized how important
it was.
Like, loving yourself.
You can love others way better.
So meditation, yoga.
(36:16):
I love yoga.
Oh, and I have yoga for all mystaff.
Cause I love it.
Too so much and provided thereas a clinic and whatever.
That's not what you're askingme.
But yeah.
also, I really loved, floattherapy is amazing.
You've never tried it and youalready, like meditation.
Float therapy is like meditationon crack or, sorry.
(36:37):
Yeah, that's, that's correct.
Jonathan (36:39):
I actually have a gift certificate for my wife for a
float session that I am going toschedule momentarily.
I've never done it before, so itsounds like I need to do it.
Amber Nelms (36:47):
love it, but you like meditation.
Jonathan (36:49):
Oh my gosh.
20 minutes every morning.
That is my,
Amber Nelms (36:52):
You are amazing.
You should.
You should be so proud ofyourself.
20 minutes is a long time.
That's impressive.
Jonathan (36:59):
Thank you.
I am proud of myself.
More importantly, though, I justhit a, I think it was like 79
days in a row of doing it.
And so that's, I'm just, I'mbuilding on wins.
Building on wins.
Thank you.
Thank you, Amber.
Amber Nelms (37:10):
Jonathan.
That is very impressive.
I don't know if people arereally taking that in, but you
should listen to this man.
Cause people that take the timeto slow down, that's who you
should trust.
The people that are just goingthrough life are not taking the
time to slow down.
You should be a little nervous,but people, that's quite
alright.
You, you challenge me.
(37:32):
I want to get, I'm not at 20minutes yet.
All right.
Fine.
Thank you.
Jonathan (37:37):
I love it.
Hey.
No.
Hey.
Why?
I always like to say slowestsmooth.
Smooth is fast, and meditationis one way to help me get in my
right mind space every morning.
Uh, what's your favorite songand or music genre?
Amber Nelms (37:50):
Ooh.
Uh, that's an interesting one.
I really would say in general, Iprobably would say alternative
is my favorite alternative rock.
But I've been recently beginninginto, I don't even know how to
describe the genre.
actually come from a family ofmusician and artists and they
make fun of me a little bit.
(38:10):
They say like, what's rockamber?
You have some weird music, dude,but I mean, I kind of like rap
rock.
Electronic mix.
I know that's weird.
It's not a very common mix ofmusic and, but I do kind of like
that.
I actually like this band.
It's not very well known.
It's called Neffex and it is rapRock, like I said.
(38:31):
And they mix a little bit ofelectronic in there too, like
throughout it.
So I just, I like to run.
So that's another wellness thingI do.
And it is, it's alsointerestingly enough, The lyrics
in a lot of it is aboutsomebody, it sounds like an
entrepreneur to me, honestly,the way he describes himself in
his lyrics and he is basically,so I like that, where I can kind
(38:54):
of get that vibe and pump myselfup.
So, um, yeah, that's the answer.
Jonathan (39:00):
Cool.
What's one thing you tell your18 year old self?
Amber Nelms (39:04):
Um, my 18 year old self.
Don't.
Um, Ooh, this is a harsh one.
Maybe you shouldn't trusteveryone.
So implicitly, not everybodynaturally cares for others.
Oh, that sounds dark.
It's probably the darkest thingI said, but, but I mean, that's
(39:24):
what I would've said to my 18year old self, like, Not
everyone is actually caring andsome people are manipulative and
are gonna take advantage of you,Amber.
So you better learn that Iwould've loved to learn that at
18 nine, and maybe it's cuz ofmy neuro divergence.
I kind of believe peopleimplicitly, usually I've learned
(39:45):
some skills now being able todetect like, wait a minute, just
cause they say that does notmean they actually.
Jonathan (39:54):
Insightful.
All right.
And you can only wear one styleof footwear, what would it be?
Amber Nelms (39:59):
Oh shoot.
Probably what I'm wearing rightnow, which would be like a wear
kind of tennis shoe that wouldmake me happy.
I could wear that with dressesand I can wear that with what
I'm wearing now.
That's.
That's what I gotta wear.
Jonathan (40:18):
Nice.
You wear it to work out, youwear it to conferences, to the
office on your feet or not.
I love
Amber Nelms (40:23):
Hello?
Should I, should I put it uphere right now?
I don't know.
I'm, I'm always down for I, I'llshow example.
Why not?
Jonathan (40:30):
Oh my gosh.
For our YouTube viewers.
There we go.
That looks like a super comfy,
Amber Nelms (40:34):
It's up there.
Jonathan (40:35):
did I hear you use the term amber athleisure?
Amber Nelms (40:40):
Yeah.
It's like kinda like, I don'twear these to run in, these are
not comfortable enough to run inand are not serious enough to,
to run in, But I could walk inthem in decent amount and they
still kind of look cute from, Imean, I know that's probably not
on your radar, but so I wouldwear those shoes as a dress.
Jonathan (40:59):
Right on.
Well, Amber, thank you so muchfor coming on the pod.
It's been an awesome and funconversation.
Amber Nelms (41:05):
Oh, it's been a pleasure.
I feel bad that I didn't haveyou talk as much, but you just
asked me so many good questionsand I love sharing.
Thank you so much for theprivilege, Jonathan, and when I
have my podcast and love haveyou on it.
You are amazing individual.
That is truly, I could tellreally caring so I'm thankful to
have gotten to know you, sothank you.
Jonathan (41:27):
Thank you, Amber.
It would be an honor.
My guest today is Amber Nelms.
Amber is a B C B A and the c e oand founder of Triangle ABA A in
North Carolina.
As a mother of a child withautism, Amber knows what it's
like to be on both sides of theequation when teaching and
learning how to parent anindividual diagnosed with
autism, she's also founder ofthe nonprofit Global Behavior
and Wellness Alliance.
(00:51):
Amber, welcome to the pod.
Amber Nelms (00:53):
Hey.
Well, I am happy to be here,Jonathan.
Thanks for having me.
Jonathan (00:57):
I am thrilled that you're here and you're a breath
of fresh hair.
Amber, you have such a greatperspective, you're so engaging
I wanna start with triangle A, BA.
You are a c e o, and a founder.
Um, like what do you wish youhad known, uh, that you know now
going back when you startedTriangle?
Amber Nelms (01:18):
Woo.
That is a really great question.
Well, actually, I'll tie it backto actually the here and the
now.
How about this?
The one thing that I put is ahuge value and I tell all of my
staff and put big emphasis on,uh, is learning and growing.
And so I think what I would sayfor.
When I first started is like,you will always be okay.
(01:42):
As long as you have thatmentality, you'll be alright.
You don't have to have all ofthe answers, but you do have to
be able to get yourself back upand say, all right, what else do
I need to grow in?
What else do I need to learn?
It's just the next step.
And if you have that mentality,the possibilities are endless.
you shut your world and make itreally small when you decide,
(02:05):
you know what, that wasn'texactly how I wanted it to go,
or I didn't get to do this andit didn't go how I designed it,
so therefore I should just stopright now.
Um, if you have that mentality,you, you miss the opportunities
that are in front of you, youknow?
Um, that's what I always say,mistakes are just learning
opportunities.
So that's what I think I wouldsay, that I learned a part of
(02:28):
the, uh, the process plus,caring for others and seeing the
individuality in everybody andhow we're all so unique.
But if we come together with asimilar vision, with our values
aligned, there is nothing thatcan stop you.
There isn't, you know, if youhave those similar values
(02:51):
together and you're, you'reinspired together to do that,
then a, an organization cangrow.
Jonathan (02:59):
It's so true, and it's what you're describing and I
absolutely agree that this isthe difference between a growth
mindset and a fixed mindset andas an entrepreneur and founder.
And so if you don't have agrowth mindset, dude, you're
like cooked.
Right?
But that's part of theexperience of being an
entrepreneur.
Amber Nelms (03:16):
Mm-hmm.
For sure.
And then how do you cultivatethat with the rest of yourself?
How do you create an environmentwhere people feel safe to be
creative?
And one of the big things is Ihave a, a lot of entrepreneurs
within my company, and Icelebrate that.
I really want them to have newideas, new, um, concepts and
(03:40):
say, Hey, could we try this?
if it works and it makesbusiness sense, I wanna listen
to them.
Because I know I've worked atplaces before starting
Triangular ABA, where anytime Ibrought up anything sort of new,
it wasn't celebrated.
It was like, well, we alreadyhave something.
We have how we're gonna makemoney and how we're gonna do
something.
And lady, Don't mess up theflow.
(04:02):
several of my employees havetheir own podcast, which I'm
like so excited.
That's like how it should be.
We should all be amazing peoplehaving interests together, um,
doing something great and itshouldn't be a place where no
one feels safe to be able to dothat.
So.
Jonathan (04:18):
Yeah, that feels really important.
And what's interesting, I don'tthink I'm aware of other
organizations in our field thatactually truly celebrate
entrepreneurs being part of theorganization.
So I wanna get specific, Amber,and like what are the kinds of
things you do to create thatenvironment of psychological
safety and nurturing the innerentrepreneur in your team?
Amber Nelms (04:38):
Whew, man.
You are asking some good ones,Jonathan.
I like it.
My brain is moving.
I like to be challenged.
Um, how do I cultivate that?
I reward it first.
That's one thing I can stand on,that I really actually do.
Whatever I say that I'm valueheavily.
I actually back it up withactionable rewards.
(05:00):
So, like I said, uh, forlearning and growing, a lot of
people, um, don't pay for allstaff meetings for like their
RBT and their VPs to be, uh,covered, right?
Like we make sure they get paidtheir normal rate for that, not
an admin rate.
And our lower rate, cause we'resaying we value that, I value
that, I reward that.
(05:20):
I'm actually at NCABA, which isthe North Carolina conference.
For, behavior analysts rightnow, and I paid for my staff to
go, we're at an Airbnb together,so I'm rewarding that.
now in regards toentrepreneurship, I think it
comes down to what I justalready said in the fact that.
When someone brings me a newconcept, or even if they come
(05:43):
and tell me, Hey, this could bebetter at triangle ABA, instead
of getting extremely, like, whatdo you mean?
Like it could be better.
Uh, I'm like, yes.
That's awesome.
You're joining in.
Together to make this better.
You have an idea.
You thought about something assimple, you know, like one of my
rbt, um, just was consideringhow the toys were laid out on
(06:06):
the shelf, and if they were donea certain way, instead of being
like, stop bothering me, stoptalking to me about this.
He thought through it.
He was willing.
To take the lead and to do it,then I'm gonna reward it.
I'm gonna pay for him to doextra time.
I'm gonna make sure he's outtathe schedule so that he can do
it.
So I think that's one of the bigthings.
That's as simple as our field ofknowing reinforcement.
(06:29):
Reward people for doing it.
Don't just talk about it.
That's one thing that reallybugs me.
People talk about their values,but they have no clear way they
can show they're actually doingit.
Don't say it's something thatyou do in your company if you
don't actually have a way toback it up.
Jonathan (06:46):
Well, I think it's super cool that, um, that you
pay for learning opportunity.
Opportunities, like all staffmeetings, and I mean, the fact
that you're NCABA's annualconference and you're all in an
Airbnb, like what better way tobring people together and show
alignment, right?
Between the values that youpurport and you know what you're
doing and, and the communityyou're building.
(07:06):
I think that's, uh, that'spretty amazing.
Are there any, interesting,sessions or topics or things
that you've been learning atNCABA
Amber Nelms (07:15):
well, I actually missed one of the learning
opportunities.
All of them are all doing, I wasreally sad.
So I'm here with you right now,so I actually haven't gone to
any yet.
So I don't know.
I will have to get back to youon that.
there'll be lots that I'lllearn, so, I'll have more to
tell you.
Jonathan (07:31):
and I'm sorry that I'm getting in the way of your
learning.
these, conferences are what fillmy bucket and, and especially
the learning and how you bringthe learning back.
Right.
one of the big things I havearound conferences are like, you
know, I'll go and I'll getinspired and then I come back
and either I'm just like, blah,to my teams, we've gotta do like
45 different things.
I've learned that that's not themost effective way to bring
(07:52):
money back, to be clear.
but the other thing that, whatI'm most fearful of is, you
know, people go and get richedand inspired and they've learned
all these new things.
Then it's like, how do you sharethat back?
With the rest of theorganization.
Right.
This idea of like learning, doyou have any tips or tricks for,
how you bring that learning backto the org?
Amber Nelms (08:09):
it comes back to the same thing, right?
If somebody's very inspired,they're more likely to want to,
go do something about it, right?
usually when someone's veryinspired and they actually have
an actionable item that theywanna do, I'm, I'm going make
sure they at least have some.
Time dedicated to that.
All of my BCAs, definitely dothat.
(08:31):
they have very unique differentthings they're very interested
in.
and that's a part of one of mycore values at Triangle ABA too
is called See the individual.
So say, you know, one of myBCBAs is really into like, how
do we do aba?
Well, almost like in a schoolenvironment, how do we set up
that one of them into, um,Really what are the core skills
(08:52):
needed for learning and spendingextra time talking about that.
And so she has her set asidetime to do those projects too.
Um, and she's also really bigabout developing students.
So I would say basically, Justbeing intentional of saying,
okay, that's what you'reinterested in.
(09:13):
honestly, Jonathan, this is thefirst time we're doing this, so
I don't really have the answer.
Probably if I had to guess, whatI will do is sit down with each
one of them, see the individual,like I said, Ask them, Hey, what
inspired you?
So I get to know again, whatmakes their mind and what
inspires them.
What did you learn that youreally, really love?
What can you do about that rightnow in your practice, in your
(09:35):
cases?
And what could you do in theorganization?
What would make you thrive?
How would you come alive doingthat?
And once we do have like asession thing, and there again,
back to your original question,how do you let entrepreneurship
grow?
That's how you do it.
Because they're driven by theirown inspiration and you're
creating this framework to allowthem to be free to do that.
(09:56):
So it, it never feels like a topdown perspective is just like
everyone coming together towardsthe thing.
And I think that's what CEOs aresupposed to do.
CEOs are supposed to be.
skilled at bringing peopletogether.
They're not supposed to be like,Hey, everybody, just do, do, do
only this.
Really, that's what their coreskill is.
They able to see patterns,inspire vision and bring the
(10:18):
right people together to do thejob.
Jonathan (10:22):
It's so unbelievably true what you just described.
I've always said like my mostimportant role as a CEO is to,
Communicate the vision build andalign the team around the vision
and just relentlessly execute.
But man, that core value ofseeing individual is super cool.
Well, speaking of CEOs, one ofthe things I know you and I are
super passionate about and, andfor me it's cuz I've got two
(10:44):
daughters whom I want to haveevery opportunity in the world
to be a c e O and to be afounder and writ large in our
country.
There are many fewer femalefounders and CEOs than there are
male.
That's bullshit.
It's just not the world I wannalive in.
I know you are passionate aboutgetting the word out around,
making a difference here.
So tell me more about like, howdo we make this happen?
(11:04):
How do we change this world
Amber Nelms (11:05):
I mean, for one, it's just standing up and being
vulnerable and telling yourstory, and then also believing
you have something to share withthe world.
First off, you know, like that'sone thing I know I want to do is
be able to, I haven't done thisyet, but I'm about to launch
Neuro Thrive.
It's just a podcast that's gonnabe about, How do you thrive in
(11:26):
the most, well, sort of way asusing behavioral analysis while
being somebody that'sneurodivergent.
And actually this is aninteresting fact.
A lot of founders and CEOs thatare women oftentimes, are
neurodivergent.
Very interesting, an interestingfact.
Um, so being able to celebratethat and understand that about
(11:50):
yourself I think is really huge.
Um, being.
comfortable with standing out, Ithink is another factor.
I was actually just talking toseveral other entrepreneurs
about this, like, I can't thinkof many women right now doing
the thing that I want to do thatI can look to.
You know, like I have differentbusiness guys that I like to
(12:12):
listen to and listen to theirpodcast or, look up to and, be
inspired by.
But a big thing for me isinspiration.
honestly is being able to notsee somebody do something
perfect, but they just got upand they did what they needed to
do and they're willing to letyou see the journey of that.
You know, I don't know.
(12:33):
I know I'm gonna do it and thenI hope many other people will
follow and do it too, because itdoes.
I'm gonna have to be comfortablewith people seeing me.
Not be getting it right everysingle time and saying different
things like values that I careabout, and hope that others will
wanna follow that too and startdoing that in their businesses.
(12:56):
you know, it's also just knowingthat you have.
Good ideas and good thoughtprocesses, and you're like, you
know, I wish people wouldlistened to this.
Like, I know it's good shit.
I know it's good shit becauseI'm listening to other people
with good shit, and then I'mputting out the, the, does that
make sense?
I, it's not that I'm justsitting around being like, oh, I
know all the stuff.
Like in my own head, it's like,no, I'm always learning and
(13:17):
growing.
Taking what I'm learning andthen rethinking through it, and
then put it into action.
And then I can be like, I canshare what I just put into
action, and then somebody elsemight be able to use it.
So I know it's good in thatregard.
To be able to do that, you haveto be willing to say No, it's
good.
And it's okay.
Jonathan (13:35):
I love this idea of like the good shit sniff test
that resonates with me.
And by the way, we willabsolutely drop a link of the
show notes to your new upcomingpodcast, neuro Thrive.
Um, that sounds phenomenal.
let me pivot cuz you are an, anentrepreneur at heart.
You've started a whole varietyof endeavors and one of those,
and this is a fascinating fact.
Story I'd love for you to share.
the nonprofit that you started,the Global Behavior and Wellness
(13:58):
Alliance, tell me a little bitmore about it.
Amber Nelms (14:01):
Well, that's very new.
That's my new baby I'm workingon.
But I'm super passionate aboutthat too.
I start, I very excited about,and I know it's the right to do.
actually before startingTriangle, I originally wanted to
do a non profit but it wasn'tthe right time.
and most things that I start,are born outta a need of things
(14:22):
that I keep seeing.
Like it's not in the world and Iwant it in the world.
Right?
Like the same thing we weretalking about.
There's not enough CEO womenthat I can listen to for
inspirational leaders.
I can't put on my headphones andbe pumped up to be like, oh, I'm
gonna do this shit.
Like, I don't, there's notenough women to do that.
And I'm like, I want there to berepresentation, right?
So I wanna do that.
And make that a reality in thisworld.
(14:43):
And the Goal, behavior andWellness Alliance, how that was
formed.
I actually lived in India forfive years.
Um, my son, you know, who wasdiagnosed with autism, I tried
to get him help.
And therapy in India first.
So I saw how there wasn't a lotof resources and once I decided,
that there was no more realviable options for him, I said,
(15:06):
in my mind I will be back oneday and I will go back to India
and I will.
Figure out a way to help theseother mothers that I'm leaving
behind I was telling them I wasleaving and they were just like,
oh, I wish I could come.
I've heard back in the States,they have so many options.
and I thought, well, I gotta goback.
I have to figure out a way.
(15:26):
one of the other passion piecesthat I really care about, which
is how I became a behavioranalyst, is I first started as a
parent as therapist model.
I would never have understoodand loved ABA enough.
Hadn't someone taken the time toshow me basically how to be a
therapist.
So I hope I'm tying this allback so people can understand.
(15:48):
So talking about theinternational side, I still was
traveling back to India forshort periods, even though I had
moved back to the state.
when this was happening, wewere, getting ABA services back
in the States and it was oldschool back then.
You know, like the book.
For taking data and everything.
They taught me how to do that.
The parent therapist model waslearning how to do dtt, take
(16:10):
data in the book.
I would go for a month back toIndia, practice all of the
pieces, that he would need anddo all of that with him.
And then that's when I realizedlike, wow, I really love this.
And it is very possible if youfind and you're able to teach
parents basically why it'sessential.
How can be practical parentswill really join in with you.
(16:32):
I think there really is apossibility.
I just don't think the necessityin the US makes it happen as
much, but there is a huge, solet me bring it all back
together.
There is, I was just in Belizefor the nonprofit, the Global
Behavior Wellness Alliance.
I met with many families therein Belize and that is what they
constantly are just basicallysaying it's okay, fine.
(16:53):
I will be the parent astherapist model, just teach me
how to do it.
I'll do it because I knowthere's not gonna be enough
people.
so the Global Behavior andWellness Alliance includes that
model with teaching a curriculumonline first, so the parents can
get caught up.
And then I want, so sign upguys, 2024.
(17:15):
We're doing adventure trips, sobehavior analysts that wanna
sign up and be apply for it.
You need to show your resume andyou're somebody that could
actually come with us.
We're going to be taking thosepeople that fit the criteria, be
able to do awesome, fun stuff.
While actually making adifference in this world, that
(17:35):
is what the Global Behavior andWellness Alliance is about.
So, I'll make sure the familieswould've gotten the main core
knowledge online and then we'llgo do in vivo training, which is
really what people need, right?
More practice to be able to seeand feedback in person.
and then I know there's a lot ofpeople that wanna see the world.
I know I do.
I love travel.
So come on, come join me.
(17:57):
2024, sign up on the website.
Um, yeah, let's go do somereally cool shit together.
Jonathan (18:04):
You'll have to keep me on your email invite list.
I also love travel.
You know, I was born in Japan.
My parents were diplomats, so wemoved around a whole bunch and
I've gotten to live in Asia andAfrica and elsewhere, and so
I've been super fortunate.
So yes.
That sounds amazing.
I love that you're opening upthe world to behavior analysis
and this parents.
Training model and vice versa,helping to open up people and
(18:26):
BCBAs here in the US tointernational experience because
that's been foundational in mylife.
But it's interesting this ideaof a parent as therapist model,
which at least internationallyhelps to address some of the,
just the supply demandimbalance, right?
Of their not enoughpractitioners.
And though Amber.
Right here in the US some payersare starting to talk about and
(18:49):
doing research on, that parentas a therapist model, focusing
more on parent training.
And tricare as an example, isone who's doing that.
But any thoughts around what wecan learn, or how to incorporate
that model much better righthere in our own country?
Amber Nelms (19:04):
Ooh, we need to do it a lot.
I mean, that's what I'm workingon right now and I'm excited
about.
just back to the researchthough.
The research does show theparents that are highly involved
plus.
comprehensive treatment withaba.
That's the kids that make themost success, right?
How do we do it well in thestate?
Well, I think one of the waysthat we do it is actually making
(19:27):
ABA way more practical.
You know what I did in researchfor the nonprofit?
I spent the majority of my timewith going through all the
materials for parent training,no offense to other people that
it's not very.
A lot of it's not good.
I mean, I know there's morestuff coming out and I haven't
probably seen it all and I don'tlike to be negative, It's not
(19:47):
that it's terrible, it's juststill not very practical and
it's not written in the languagestill that families are going to
connect to one big thing and oneproject that I'm working on and
I need a PhD.
Level, uh, B C B A to come joinme and do research on this is,
(20:08):
um, a very interesting factor.
I think that would make a bigdifference is being able to have
the families understand thebehavior analytic material first
by look going kind of backwardsby seeing the problem first,
like something's going on intheir current life with their
child, being able to detectthat.
(20:29):
And then being able to practicewhatever skill that you're
trying to teach them with thatactual problem.
So they're working from amotivation standpoint, from the
right MO I've anyone do thisbefore, ever.
No one has, and I really want todo it.
Now, my, my area of expertise ismore the creative kind of brain,
(20:52):
right?
Like, and finding where there'sa missing hole.
I'm not a researcher, so I needsomebody to help me do it.
so I feel like that is a hugefactor.
I've tested it, and my ownclinic with my families, and I
see the light bulb come off.
They just go crazy for itbecause it's going from their
mo.
Instead of giving peopleinformation, which there again,
(21:13):
I stick with themes.
I do that with my staff and Itry to do that with my clients
to the same concept.
Start with their motivation.
I mean, one big factor for me,two missing in the applied
behavioral analysis.
Is we don't always actually doit across everything.
That's one thing I would say,like ABA could be used for
(21:34):
everything.
Why do we not see, like, wait aminute, you would do it with
your clients that way.
Why would you not do it with theparent?
Why all of a sudden do we justdecide not to do that same
concept with them?
Why do we not do pairing withparents?
Why do we not do, thinking aboutMOS with parents?
Why, why, why?
if you think the science reallyworks, why would you not do it?
Jonathan (21:56):
Wait, wait, wait.
Hang on.
So this is really important.
So why do we not pair with.
Parents knowing how importantbuilding the therapeutic
relationship is,
Amber Nelms (22:06):
do we have systems for that?
Do you know anybody that's doingthat?
For one interesting thing, I wasdoing an interview with someone
else the other day, um, and theywere saying, I actually have
data collection around myparenting procedures for my
clients.
A lot of places don't have anydata collection around that.
Why is there nothing about anysystems?
(22:27):
There's no research about that,about pairing before you do
parent training, nothing.
And that is the big, huge alarmthing around parent training
that I see.
Actually, I missed one otherpoint.
The other point that I see thatis a problem, and I think this
is just training in general, andit may be because I am
neurodivergent and I'm all aboutfiguring out integrations.
(22:50):
that's the way my brain works.
I'm about systems, integrationsystems, how they cross over and
I'm good, uh, pick up patterns.
So that's one strength I think,or a big strength that I have in
figuring out those pieces.
But I'm really big in generalabout training.
why do we train in one-offtraining and topics?
(23:10):
And if you even look at the RBTtask list, It doesn't look
holistic.
It looks like 0.1, 0.2.
They don't even make sense intheir alignment on the task
list.
So when your brain goes toorganize that information, it
doesn't naturally fit together.
There is some parts of the RBTtasks that I could think.
(23:33):
Like, well, data collection orcontinuous measurements under
discontinuous, at least thosetwo topics fit, fit together.
But organizing information,everything I've seen in regards
to parent training, I mean,maybe Hanley has recently come
out with something that was alittle bit more holistic and
seemed to built around eachother.
So I was excited about that.
His parent training does that,uh, the best that I've seen more
(23:55):
recently, but a lot of theparent training material where
it's like, oh, we're gonna talkabout ABC data.
Randomly, we're just doing that.
We're just gonna do a one-offABC training.
That's all the time I see it.
Oh, we're gonna do sevensessions, seven steps to
instructional control.
Nothing is wrong with any ofthose things.
And even the training is prettygood.
Like just holistically in thefact like we win to the topic.
(24:17):
Where is the people teaching howeverything fits together?
Where's the integration systemtraining talk?
That's what I wanna be known fortoo.
I don't wanna figure out how todo it, maybe because that's how
I think.
But ABA really opened up for meas a more way of life when I
started thinking about that'swhy this matters.
(24:40):
This is why this matters.
So that's why it all goestogether.
Not know this one subject matterof discontinuous measurement,
like the back of my hand, butit's never thought about in
relation to anything else.
How are things related?
Teachings about that.
Sorry, that was a very longtangent, but I've been thinking
(25:00):
about it a ton.
Jonathan (25:01):
Yeah.
I wanna double click on, youmentioned neuro divergence and
how that helps you see patternsand thinking about organizing.
mechanisms and principles.
and I was diagnosed with ADHD asan adult, and I think about it
as my superpower and I'm, I'mneurodivergent.
How, how is yourneurodivergence?
Um, and tell me more what you'velearned about yourself, your
practice, and who you are onyour neurodivergent journey.
Amber Nelms (25:23):
So, oh, great.
Well, I was also diagnosed withadhd, and that's an interesting,
factor for most women.
a lot of women don't find outthey have ADHD until they're in
their thirties.
That's so common.
It's such a common trend.
and honestly, once I found thatout, a lot of my life starts
making sense.
(25:44):
Tons of things.
So, now whenever I'm on likeTikTok or anything and I see
something about, adhd andhonestly it just makes me feel
not alone.
That's the biggest thing whenyou talk about it from a
personal level.
Now, when I read those storiesor I actually listen to other
podcasts of women like me, Andthen I'm like, oh, you have that
(26:04):
similar story where you didn'treally know which group that you
really fit into because you likea lot of male dominated
activities, but you are afemale, gender or you have a lot
of risk taking behaviors.
but then at the same time I'veseen a lot of negative, and
maybe this goes back to likecelebrating Neurodivergence,
there's still also a lot of.
(26:24):
People that often talk aboutADHD in a negative connotation
and autism actually, right?
as if there's something brokenor messed up instead of the
beauty of celebratingneurodivergence is, no, it's
not.
It's not that you're somehow alesser individual, it's that
your mind works maybedifferently than neurotypical
people, and there aredifficulties with that.
(26:47):
There is no doubt because of myadhd, there are times where, I
have a hard time, processingauditory information.
If somebody's coming out with mewith a lot of different
instructions, the executivefunctioning part of my brain is
like, whoa, I cannot put that inthe right order.
so, but instead of necessarilysaying, oh, that person's
broken, no, it's just that partof the brain doesn't work like
(27:09):
somebody else.
I need skills, I need to learnskills, I need to know that
that's true for me.
Put certain, um, parametersaround for myself to be
successful.
So that's what ABA should bedoing for somebody with autism.
one thing I do like, sorry, Iwent on a tangent, but I wanna
talk about this so beautiful tome.
is that, uh, you know, the wholeold school aba, we just wanna
(27:31):
make, Somebody with autismbecome typically developing and
that argument that ABA is reallyharmful.
And I'm like, well, that's not,when we do a triangle aba, I'm
big about saying you arebeautiful as a neurodivergent
individual.
It's not that we wanna make youneurotypical, we just wanna give
you the skills that you need soyou can see the world.
(27:52):
More because Hey, why do youthink that that autism show
about dating came out onNetflix?
There's a lot of'em wanna havemore skills to do that.
So they do have things they wantand they wanna see the world
more.
Plus the beautiful part is youwant the world to see them.
There's so many cool people thatare neuro divergent.
They're artists, they'reinteresting, my son is a
fantastic artist.
(28:14):
He is funny, he's interesting.
He, has lots of friends now, butif he had not been given the
skills that he needed, the worldwould've missed a beautiful
person that, has so much tooffer.
that's not exactly what you'veasked me.
So there you go.
This is a case and example ofneurodivergent.
(28:34):
You gave me one thing and I wentbam, bam, and gave you lot
Jonathan (28:39):
Hey, it's all good.
Amber, tell me about the fiveminute documentary you recently
recorded.
Amber Nelms (28:45):
Um, well that's another dream that I've always
had is to be on TV and be ableto talk to people about ABA from
a positive standpoint.
And that's what I got to do,Jonathan I am so excited! Dennis
Quaid I guess created Aeducational documentary.
it's called The Viewpoint.
(29:05):
And so someone from hisorganization reached out to me
and they said, there's a lot ofpeople in North Carolina wanting
to know more about aba, so wouldyou be interested in doing a
documentary that talks about itand why it's important?
I was like, uh, hell yes.
That has always been somethingthat I was passionate about.
Cause many years back I.
Went on YouTube and then likewent on the internet and there
(29:27):
was, and there still is a ton ofthings about how ABAs.
Isn't good.
Right.
And like that's discouraging tome.
So being able to disseminate thepositives that are going on or
being able to talk about beingneurodivergent and that it can
still be celebrated from thatperspective is huge for me
because I know ABA has helped myown personal life.
(29:48):
I use it to be the most, well Ipersonally can to help my own
child and I help a lot of otherpeople.
So the uh, documentary is goingto be out on.
NBC or Fox, I think, as well asthe Discovery Channel.
I think those are the topchannels.
I think it's supposed to be on.
(30:09):
It's coming out in April.
It's very short.
Like I said, it's only fiveminutes, but it's enough to talk
about, what ABA is.
my son's on it talking about howit helped him and I talked
briefly on it.
so I'm happy to get the word outso people can see, and be open
to it.
without enough information outthere that's positive.
(30:29):
Some people don't even give achance, so,
Jonathan (30:33):
That's awesome.
I can't wait to see it.
We'll drop a link to that aswell in the show notes.
and well tell me, Amber, what'sone thing every ABA business
owner should start doing and onething they should stop doing?
Amber Nelms (30:50):
Oh, that's a good one.
Well do your best to not getbought out.
stay strong.
That's all I have to say.
That's what the Global Behaviorand Wellness Alliance is about,
like figuring out how we cancome together as an alliance
and, and say we wanna do goodquality work without ending up
in debt by any means.
and then we are a answering tosomebody else that doesn't know
(31:13):
the field.
I mean, and not judging becauseI understand to grow to the next
level.
I can see the temptations allover the place and.
I don't wanna say that.
That's not even something thatcouldn't be the right answer.
I'm just saying be careful, Iguess, who you end up aligning
yourself with, even if you haveto make that decision.
Because if they don't care aboutgood quality and you're
(31:35):
answering to that, it, that hasbeen one thing I've been
thankful for, that I haven'tdone and I have had to grow much
slower.
And I know if I had.
Taken, the offers that peoplesaid like, I could have grown to
like five clinics.
Right?
That would be cool.
That would be exciting, and itwould look good on paper.
But would I have been happydoing that?
(31:55):
No.
Cause I most likely would've hadto make compromises.
Like right now, I.
Paid for several of my RBTsnormal rate pay to just be outta
the schedule so they can supportthe other rbts.
That's just unheard of.
No one does that.
It's not a good moneymakingmodel, but I know from what I
dreamed about for like socialgroups and good actual learning
(32:19):
environments, I dreamed of thatwhen I was a RBT of somebody
actually taking the time Sothat's one thing I would say.
I know your financing will thinkyou're crazy for that idea.
And it isn't great necessarilyto be paying somebody that when
there's no billables coming in.
But it can make a hugedifference on morale and you are
(32:39):
backing up what you said.
You're not just talking but notbacking.
Like I get to show myself I amcommitted to that.
This is how I'm showing you.
I'm committed to you being ableto have the best quality.
Cuz I know you need somebody to,um, set up social groups and be
like the main person organizinghow the gonna be.
(33:01):
and for somebody to have thetime able to do that and paid do
it not just a student wheneverthey hear and then can do it,
that's not sustainable.
Who can do that?
So that's one thing I would say.
To do and then I told what notto do.
I do think that's pretty unique.
When I was, interacting withsome other behavior analysts
(33:21):
from other companies, most ofthem had never heard of that and
they thought, I don't knowanybody doing that hardly.
Maybe universities, there's somethat have that funding, but a
typical ABA company that's nothappening often.
Jonathan (33:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh, and by the way, I thinkthat's, that's fantastic that
you're paying your team.
Um, Coming back to Lion of DearValues for learning, for
shadowing others and for, um,uh, doing things that will, that
make them feel like you'reinvesting in them a as opposed
to just minimizing them as anexpense.
(33:54):
Well, Amber, where can peoplefind you online?
Amber Nelms (33:57):
Well, uh, triangleaba.com.
you can find me on there, youcan find me, on the global
Behavior and wellnessalliance.org website too.
those are the two places, or youcan email me
amber@triangleaba.com so thoseare the top three places.
Um, and yeah, I'm always readyto chat and collaborate with
(34:20):
others this work.
Is inspiring to me no matterwhat.
Like even if Triangle ABAstomorrow, I'd be figuring out
somehow how to help get a to.
So I'm just be doing this, so to
Jonathan (34:37):
Awesome.
We'll drop those links to theshow notes.
Uh, are you ready for the hottake questions?
Amber Nelms (34:42):
sure.
Let's do it.
Jonathan (34:44):
Here we go.
Rapid fire, uh, you're on yourdeathbed.
Amber.
What's the one thing you wannabe remembered for?
Amber Nelms (34:51):
That I wasn't afraid to live my life in a way
that could make the biggestimpact, and that I wasn't afraid
to tell others what could make adifference in their life, but I
didn't shy away from that.
And I was brave with them.
I told'em whether they loved itor not, and it made a
difference.
they can remember that one thingthat I said that said, oh shit,
(35:16):
maybe I should go for that.
Like that's what I wanna beremembered for, because that
could live beyond you.
And most people are justwandering through life
aimlessly.
I just wanna be someone thatlives my life with intention and
then, Sees others and says, waita minute, I see you.
You're amazing.
if you did this, this could beawesome.
(35:38):
And even if it's controversialsometimes, and they'll still
remember that because I wasbrave enough to do it, to bring
it up, you know,
Jonathan (35:48):
Yeah.
What's your most importantself-care practice?
Amber Nelms (35:53):
uh, meditation and yoga.
Actually lots.
That's the one thing I'velearned to do really well.
Take care of myself.
I used to be terrible.
Now I love myself.
and this is the funniest thing,I never realized how important
it was.
Like, loving yourself.
You can love others way better.
So meditation, yoga.
(36:16):
I love yoga.
Oh, and I have yoga for all mystaff.
Cause I love it.
Too so much and provided thereas a clinic and whatever.
That's not what you're askingme.
But yeah.
also, I really loved, floattherapy is amazing.
You've never tried it and youalready, like meditation.
Float therapy is like meditationon crack or, sorry.
(36:37):
Yeah, that's, that's correct.
Jonathan (36:39):
I actually have a gift certificate for my wife for a
float session that I am going toschedule momentarily.
I've never done it before, so itsounds like I need to do it.
Amber Nelms (36:47):
love it, but you like meditation.
Jonathan (36:49):
Oh my gosh.
20 minutes every morning.
That is my,
Amber Nelms (36:52):
You are amazing.
You should.
You should be so proud ofyourself.
20 minutes is a long time.
That's impressive.
Jonathan (36:59):
Thank you.
I am proud of myself.
More importantly, though, I justhit a, I think it was like 79
days in a row of doing it.
And so that's, I'm just, I'mbuilding on wins.
Building on wins.
Thank you.
Thank you, Amber.
Amber Nelms (37:10):
Jonathan.
That is very impressive.
I don't know if people arereally taking that in, but you
should listen to this man.
Cause people that take the timeto slow down, that's who you
should trust.
The people that are just goingthrough life are not taking the
time to slow down.
You should be a little nervous,but people, that's quite
alright.
You, you challenge me.
(37:32):
I want to get, I'm not at 20minutes yet.
All right.
Fine.
Thank you.
Jonathan (37:37):
I love it.
Hey.
No.
Hey.
Why?
I always like to say slowestsmooth.
Smooth is fast, and meditationis one way to help me get in my
right mind space every morning.
Uh, what's your favorite songand or music genre?
Amber Nelms (37:50):
Ooh.
Uh, that's an interesting one.
I really would say in general, Iprobably would say alternative
is my favorite alternative rock.
But I've been recently beginninginto, I don't even know how to
describe the genre.
actually come from a family ofmusician and artists and they
make fun of me a little bit.
(38:10):
They say like, what's rockamber?
You have some weird music, dude,but I mean, I kind of like rap
rock.
Electronic mix.
I know that's weird.
It's not a very common mix ofmusic and, but I do kind of like
that.
I actually like this band.
It's not very well known.
It's called Neffex and it is rapRock, like I said.
(38:31):
And they mix a little bit ofelectronic in there too, like
throughout it.
So I just, I like to run.
So that's another wellness thingI do.
And it is, it's alsointerestingly enough, The lyrics
in a lot of it is aboutsomebody, it sounds like an
entrepreneur to me, honestly,the way he describes himself in
his lyrics and he is basically,so I like that, where I can kind
(38:54):
of get that vibe and pump myselfup.
So, um, yeah, that's the answer.
Jonathan (39:00):
Cool.
What's one thing you tell your18 year old self?
Amber Nelms (39:04):
Um, my 18 year old self.
Don't.
Um, Ooh, this is a harsh one.
Maybe you shouldn't trusteveryone.
So implicitly, not everybodynaturally cares for others.
Oh, that sounds dark.
It's probably the darkest thingI said, but, but I mean, that's
(39:24):
what I would've said to my 18year old self, like, Not
everyone is actually caring andsome people are manipulative and
are gonna take advantage of you,Amber.
So you better learn that Iwould've loved to learn that at
18 nine, and maybe it's cuz ofmy neuro divergence.
I kind of believe peopleimplicitly, usually I've learned
(39:45):
some skills now being able todetect like, wait a minute, just
cause they say that does notmean they actually.
Jonathan (39:54):
Insightful.
All right.
And you can only wear one styleof footwear, what would it be?
Amber Nelms (39:59):
Oh shoot.
Probably what I'm wearing rightnow, which would be like a wear
kind of tennis shoe that wouldmake me happy.
I could wear that with dressesand I can wear that with what
I'm wearing now.
That's.
That's what I gotta wear.
Jonathan (40:18):
Nice.
You wear it to work out, youwear it to conferences, to the
office on your feet or not.
I love
Amber Nelms (40:23):
Hello?
Should I, should I put it uphere right now?
I don't know.
I'm, I'm always down for I, I'llshow example.
Why not?
Jonathan (40:30):
Oh my gosh.
For our YouTube viewers.
There we go.
That looks like a super comfy,
Amber Nelms (40:34):
It's up there.
Jonathan (40:35):
did I hear you use the term amber athleisure?
Amber Nelms (40:40):
Yeah.
It's like kinda like, I don'twear these to run in, these are
not comfortable enough to run inand are not serious enough to,
to run in, But I could walk inthem in decent amount and they
still kind of look cute from, Imean, I know that's probably not
on your radar, but so I wouldwear those shoes as a dress.
Jonathan (40:59):
Right on.
Well, Amber, thank you so muchfor coming on the pod.
It's been an awesome and funconversation.
Amber Nelms (41:05):
Oh, it's been a pleasure.
I feel bad that I didn't haveyou talk as much, but you just
asked me so many good questionsand I love sharing.
Thank you so much for theprivilege, Jonathan, and when I
have my podcast and love haveyou on it.
You are amazing individual.
That is truly, I could tellreally caring so I'm thankful to
have gotten to know you, sothank you.
Jonathan (41:27):
Thank you, Amber.
It would be an honor.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com