June 21, 2023 • 42 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan (00:30):
My guest today is Matt Maier.
Matt is a c e O of First Stepsfor Kids and serves the
executive director of theCalifornia Association for
Behavior Analysis.
He lives in Oakland, Californiawith his wife and two kids.
Matt, welcome to the pod dude.
Matt McAlear (00:45):
Thanks Jonathan.
Thanks for having me.
I'm sorry for the short biowanting ask me to do is send you
a bio and I didn't, so thanksfor winging it.
Jonathan (00:54):
I gotta tell you, I appreciate the short bio.
It's less pressure on me to makesure I'm not screwing it up.
But here's the thing.
What this short bio underlies ordoes not well represent is that
you have done so freaking muchin your career.
And that's what I want to diveinto.
and let's start with, um, Youfounded Kids Overcoming or COI,
(01:15):
and grew it over, I think sixplus years.
tell me what was the mostrewarding and the most
challenging part of thatjourney, man.
Matt McAlear (01:23):
Yeah, sure.
might be helpful if I give youlike a little bit of my ABA
origin story and even how I gotthere.
Cause I think it could of buildson itself.
So, I was an indecisiveundergrad in upstate New York,
in, you know, the probably 93,94 range, and decided to study
social work.
And my first day of my firstinternship, I was sent to a big
(01:45):
state developmental hospital.
You know, the old school, takethese people that at that point
were diagnosed with mentalretardation and put'em in the
hospital.
They live here, they work here,they play here, and the family
comes on Sundays.
Um, you know, really sad stateof affairs at that point.
And, my first job was to go feedpeanut butter and jelly to this
room full of, you know, 30 to 50year old men as snack as I
(02:07):
thought, you know, this, I cando.
So I went over with my snack andwithin literally eight minutes
of being on the job, I still, Ican show you the scar next time
we see each other.
Got this guy's jaw locked aroundmy arm, and I remember going
back to my dorm room, layingthere saying I'm either never
doing anything else again, orI'm never going back there
again.
I went back the next day andthat kind of triggered my love
(02:30):
for what, you know, probably wasa person with autism and the
science of behavior analysis.
You know why in theory, when I'mgiving this person what should
be a reinforcer, something that,you know, he was hungry.
Why he choose my arm instead?
So I could have went down thatpath and through college worked
in.
Group homes and adult programs,um, you know, in, up in upstate
(02:51):
New York, and then moved toCalifornia and became a teacher
in a non-public school.
So a school serving kids five to22 years old and the bruisers
who either their parentsadvocated for them to be out of
the district or the districtdidn't have a placement for
them.
And same organization also hadnine group homes, a huge adult
(03:12):
program with, you know, folksfrom 22 to 75 years old.
All with autism, like, you know,500 people on this campus.
so I kind of had like the birthto earth trial by fire
experience.
And then in 2006 or seven, Iguess, I was recruited by a
large national nonprofitorganization to become their
(03:32):
director of autism services.
They had formed a nationalpartnership with the Autism
Society of America.
Both these organizations saweach other's, scope and there
was this huge need for theseservices.
so I went there and started upour autism programming and uh, I
moved up to the chief clinicalofficer and this was right 2007
to 11, and that is the same timethat insurance was starting to
(03:57):
heat up in California.
So our mandate wasn't passeduntil 2012.
But there was all these casesgoing through the Department of
Managed Healthcare, which is ourregulator, and then to
independent medical review,which is, you know, a family
being great advocates andsaying, Hey, this is a medical
service.
We want this service.
And the plans were starting tolose those on the regular.
So we reached out to the largestnonprofit commercial health plan
(04:21):
in California and said, Hey, wecan solve your pain point and we
can be your go-to person forthese cases.
So they started giving us thesecases.
One off this, they came, andthen 2010, 11, they started
seeing the writing on the wallthing.
There's gonna be a mandate we'regonna have to pay for these
services.
Let's form a partnership here.
So, myself and then my eventualbusiness partner at Coy Ann
(04:42):
Swinney, she was the chief, uh,financial officer.
I was the chief clinicalofficer.
We signed a statewide contractfor services with this large,
you can figure out who it is,provider of services in
California.
And then about six months intothat, we said, hold on.
Why don't we do this forourselves?
So we called the Chief MedicalOfficer and said, Hey, if we
were gonna open a shop, wouldyou send us kids?
(05:02):
They said, well, we just signed.
This pretty significant contractwith you.
You know, we trust you.
So yes, that was kind of thebirth of coy, uh, kids
overcoming.
So we started literally inAnne's basement, full
entrepreneur style.
our staff meetings were peoplesitting on her kids' bunk beds
to start.
super startupy, which was somuch fun.
(05:22):
And we took some of our peoplethat had worked for me at the
school and then followed us tothe nonprofit, they came over.
So it was really like, as anentrepreneur, a pretty easy
startup.
We had a contract, we had kidsright away.
We had a staff right away.
So that's kinda how we gotstarted.
And then for your initialquestion, we built, our
organization over six-ish yearsuntil we, transacted and we
(05:45):
built it across four states.
We had, you know, 400 ish staff.
And I think the most excitingthing for me was just
surrounding, and what I stilllove to do today is just
surrounding myself as goodpeople.
I like to do that in my personallife.
I like to do that in my businesslife.
Just kind smart people who areall kind of looking in the same
(06:06):
direction.
Does that help, that help kindaset the stage for things a
little bit?
Jonathan (06:11):
I mean, I've got 1,000,001 questions about this
original peanut butter and jellyand the bite, and I'm so good.
Gosh, our field is so lucky thatyou chose to go down the blue
pill and, and you went back thenext day.
But it's one of the things Ithink people don't fully
appreciate about.
Um, Entrepreneurship is the truepower of having a partner,
right?
Because this is a lonelyfreaking journey, and I didn't
(06:33):
appreciate that you and Anne metthat far back at a prior
organization before in
Matt McAlear (06:37):
2007.
We've been working side byseven, so,
Jonathan (06:40):
and you're still working together today, we're
gonna talk about that
Matt McAlear (06:42):
correct.
Jonathan (06:42):
Uh, in a moment, the first step.
But, tell me what was it inAnne, or what did you all see in
each other that just made it sonatural to work together?
how do you pinpoint evaluatingthe right partner?
Matt McAlear (06:54):
Yeah.
So I think, there's gotta beinterpersonal connection.
You know, we, we get along well,we work well together.
We respect each other's space.
You know, I think what isinteresting with our
relationship is, I guess likeour families don't go on
vacation together.
You know, like we see each othersocially.
We both live in the same town,but, we have separate lives and
I think that's helpful as well.
Uh, and I think the mostimportant thing other than the
(07:17):
interpersonal connection is thatwe have.
Really well developednon-competing skillsets.
So I'm A B, C, B A.
I look at things from theclinical side, the operational
side, and as a cpa.
So she is a certified publicaccountant who looks at things
from also a very operationalside.
But then all the financialpieces that are not my preferred
(07:38):
skills or tasks to deal with areright in her wheelhouse.
And I think, both of thosethings combined have really
served us well.
Over the years.
So we worked, you know, at thatnonprofit together, we started
coy together.
We were at our next journeyafter COI that we, I'm sure
we'll talk about.
And now in our current, roles,we're able to work together as
well.
So it's been a really greatlong-term relationship.
Jonathan (08:00):
I, I love that notion of a non-competing skillset, a
complimentary set that allowsCorrect.
You all both focus on the thingsyou enjoy doing and the things
that are in your wheelhouse.
So you and Anne made a decisionto sell Coy Kadiant.
and one thing we share incommon, uh, you know, I would
not be in the autism servicesfield if not for Lanny Fritz,
(08:23):
who started trumpet behavioralhealth many, many years ago.
And, which I joined in in 2012.
And then he subsequently went onto start Kadiant.
And I mean, just, you talk aboutsalt of the earth, human beings.
And leaders, I'll follow him tothe ends of the earth.
And so clearly I get he wantedto be a part of, Kadiant.
but tell me more about whatprompted you to sell, and then
what, what do you know now thatyou wish you knew when you
(08:47):
started that process?
Matt McAlear (08:48):
Hmm.
Good questions.
Um, so, you know, around, so westarted a late 2011, early 2012.
Our transaction was finalized inApril, 2019.
So from like 16 to 19, you know,just kind of looking at the
fields, how things are moving,getting as every entrepreneur
and business owner has for thelast five or seven years, calls
(09:11):
from every investment grouparound who are you know,
smelling the blood in the waterof, money from the commercial
plans coming in, looking to getinto the game.
we knew that a transaction wasprobably inevitable, so let's
plan for it.
And I think we did a really goodjob, a thoughtful job of, you
know, building the scope of ourcompany.
So it created value.
(09:32):
We went across state lines,which also creates value.
Just showing that, you can run acompany in your hometown, sure,
but can you deal with anotherstate's regulations?
Can you deal with anotherstate's licensure?
Can you deal with anotherstate's payers and still keep
the margin that the eventual uh,buyer is looking for?
So I think that we did thatreally well.
I think another thing that, washelpful to set us up for success
(09:54):
is we always worked on astrategic plan.
So we brought in a third party,guy named Peter Doms.
I'll give him a plug.
Peter is awesome.
He's from Western Michigan.
He's done plans for, you know, alot of our large organizations
in our fields.
And, I've him at CalABA.
And so I, we brought in Peterand we said, Hey Peter, here's
what our eventual goal is inthree years.
(10:16):
We had two 18 month plans withPeter and our leadership team.
So, we all worked the plan, likeevery one of our meetings was
like, what's your goal?
If we're not, if it's not on theplan, let's not work towards it.
so that was really helpful toset us up for success.
And then when we went down theroad with.
a buyer that didn't work out andI think that's a good thing.
(10:36):
And right around that same time,Lanny had moved his family after
his trumpet uh, sale, he movedhis family, as you know, to
Spain and they spent a year justhaving the most unbelievable
experience it sounds like,homeschooling their kids and
traveling all over Europe for ayear.
Uh, and then he came back andhe's got a big brain and a big
heart and he had lots of folkssaying, Hey, we want to back you
(10:57):
to open the next.
Uh, you know, kind ofmulti-company company.
So he had TPG approach him andthen Lanny approached us.
And Lanny is also, you know, apersonal friend.
We've been on boards togetherand just kinda the conference
social scene.
so having Loni involved was abig differentiator for us.
our vision and our valuesaligned.
(11:19):
the vision that he had forKadiant was one that I was, you
know, like when you sell yourbusiness, It's your baby.
You know, we spent a lot of timeworking on this thing.
You don't wanna just hand itoff.
I didn't wanna hand it off tosomeone that I couldn't trust.
So, having Lanni involved was abig decision for us, and we went
down the road and got it done.
Jonathan (11:40):
what do you wish you knew at the time as you went
through that process,
Matt McAlear (11:45):
I wish I knew how intense the due diligence.
Was gonna be, uh, it wasintense.
So TPG is a, you know, large,and this was their their first
take on purchasing a behavioralhealth company first look at
aba.
So they put us through thegrinder and it was, you know,
six months of pretty much afull-time job for Anne and I
(12:07):
while trying to run a company.
So, it was quite intense, just,you know, pouring over.
Every part of your business.
And it was really helpful forus, I think, to know, in
advance, we knew that there wasgonna be some diligence.
We had our books in order, wehad, you know, things
accessible.
Uh, hiring a great attorney Ithink is another, like you must
(12:27):
have a great attorney and youmust have someone with m and a
mergers and acquisitionexperience just to help with the
diligence efforts.
Talk to the other attorney,negotiate your deal.
So we did have that, on ourside.
But I think if I knew howintense the diligence would've
been, I would've stacked ourteam with a few more folks.
There was, 18 hour days for, Annand I trying to come up with all
(12:49):
that stuff going against, youknow, TPG and PWCs team of, you
know, 75 associates.
So it was a, it was a lot, butwe got it done.
Jonathan (13:01):
I, I empathize.
You know, I was with a largenational provider and we did
several rounds of fundraisingand it, I, well, I'll never
forget, Matt, it was like I hadan 8:30 AM to 5:30 PM job, and
then like you put the kids tobed and then I felt like I had
my like 9:00 PM to 2:00 AM joband that can be super
distracting, right?
Because you got kiddos to serve,you got team members to support,
you got payer relationships andother referral source
(13:22):
relationships to keep up.
I mean, the list goes on and on.
So what recommendations do youhave for an ABA owner who's
considering joining a largerpractice.
Matt McAlear (13:33):
So I think, you know, doing your own due
diligence on the buyer, youknow, is this a good fit?
What's their turn?
You know, are they gonna holdonto the company for two years,
three years, five years?
I think the biggest, piece forme personally was like, what's
my role?
Is there a role for me?
I wasn't ready to go off intothe sunset.
and thankfully Lani's Vision wasto have, both Anne and I and
(13:56):
some of the other brilliantfolks that we ended up working
with Kadiant and have rolesthere.
But that's not the case foreverybody and some people are
ready to go retire.
Um, so I think understandingwhat role, if any, would be
there for you.
Definitely making sure that yourvalues and vision are aligned.
Um, that's a really importantpiece.
You know, just making sure thatthis is a company that you can
(14:18):
buy in, that when you have thattransaction, you're letting go
of everything.
Is this the place you wanna sendyour, company to?
So those would be two thingsthat I would definitely look out
for
Jonathan (14:32):
Sage advice.
And, um, gosh, just to emphasizeoverindex in my mind, it's so
important to Overindex and spendway more time than you'd ever
think.
Ensuring that last point isthere vision and values
alignment with thisorganization?
I'm gonna be part of, if youwant to keep in your case, being
part of that organization.
Matt McAlear (14:48):
another important piece too.
You know?
Is there a role for your team onthe new team?
You know, some folks will makean acquisition, just let that
company run as it is.
In theory, if they're purchasingit, probably making a little bit
of, uh, profit, will they letthem run or is it that all of
the back office team are gonnabe consolidated?
And then you have your hr, yourpayroll, your billing people out
(15:09):
of work.
And if so, you know, as abusiness owner, I think anybody
that goes through yourtransaction, make sure you take
care of your team as well.
You know, you might be the ownerof the company, but there are
people that worked really hardto get you to that point of
success.
And I think either making surethat you take care of them or
it's negotiated in your dealthat you know they're taken care
(15:30):
of and they have a soft landingspot and some kind of runway or,
uh, financial runway or careertransition services, et cetera,
is a really important piece.
Jonathan (15:42):
So well said.
I mean, you've all been part ofthat journey right up to that
point and honoring them, andthat is critical.
Well, here's what's sointeresting because about your
story is you had thisunbelievable opportunity.
So now subsequent to selling,COI to Kadiant, You had an
opportunity to become CEO ofanother ABA services
(16:03):
organization, first Step, uh,and for whom you've been CEO for
I think almost a year now.
Um, yep.
And so this is really powerful.
The
Matt McAlear (16:11):
job I told myself I would never have again.
It's amazing
Jonathan (16:16):
what amnesia entrepreneurs have, right?
Yeah.
It's like a survival instinct.
What is it?
What did you do differently inyour first year as ceo?
At First step based on what youlearned from COI and your time
at Kadiant?
Sure.
Matt McAlear (16:31):
So, uh, you know, after I left Kadian, we did
three years post-acquisitionleft.
And I said, you know, as I justsaid, I'm never again gonna be a
ceo, E o I'm never again gonnado day-to-day operations.
And I was, you know, hell benton that.
And then I think it was at theCASP conference, I ran into Jen
Harris, who is the owner.
Dr.
(16:52):
Jen Harris is the owner of FirstSteps.
And she had also been on theboard with me at Calva for I
think nine years, close to adecade.
So we have a good personalrelationship, good working
relationship, and she's like, ohmy God, you're not there
anymore.
Come work with me.
Oh, definitely not.
No possible way am I gonna dothat.
And you know, we had subsequentconversation.
She came up, we went out todinner, you know, talked it
(17:14):
over.
And uh, the thing that reallydrew me to First Steps is number
one, it's a company that's beenaround 18 years.
So Jen was a UCLA study withLova, was number six or eight or
nine employee at card, you know,been in the field forever and
just does it right.
The reputation precedes them.
they have an amazing team.
(17:35):
We have, you know, CourtneyTarbox is our Chief Clinical
Officer.
Jonathan Tarbox is the directorof research.
So working with a team like thatpiqued my interest a little bit
and then looking at, They're,um, BCBAs and region directors,
et cetera.
The tenure of those folks in,there's five clinics and at each
of the clinics, there's probablyat least five, probably closer
(17:55):
to 10 BCBAs that have been withthe organization for 8, 10, 12,
15 years, which is just unheardof.
So between the, you know, tenureof the team, the culture of the
organization, so I decided, yep,I'm gonna do this.
And I had, one other caveat forJen was I get to bring Ann
along.
Guys, you know, goodnon-competing skillsets.
(18:17):
So Anne come along as the COO..
So I think, coming into awell-established, great
reputation company versus kindof coy, the startup, put me in a
different mode as the ceo.
And I think my first, ninemonths-ish here at first Apps,
there's been a lot of listening.
A lot of just getting to learnwho people are, how they do
(18:39):
things, why they do things,learn about the clinical
programs, kind of dig into theoperations side.
So really trying to do no harmfirst has been my mantra.
come in, try to make some quickhigh value changes for the team
so they can feel the difference.
like a good behavior analysttrying to pair myself.
Was something that's reinforcingto their team.
(19:00):
Uh, and I think we've done apretty good job of that.
And, you know, the next step isnow like, okay, what systems can
we change?
What processes can we change togain some efficiency?
another big difference betweenmy previous life at Kadiant and
First Steps is it First Steps isentirely privately held by Jen
and her husband, Greg Harris,versus having a board to report
(19:20):
to.
it's Jen, Ann, and I on thephone.
Like, okay, can we do this?
Yep, we can do this.
So it's the being a little moreagile, uh, than working in a, a
large organization has been, uh,it's been nice, a little esque,
uh, I should say.
So, you know, a lot oflistening, a lot of scanning of
the environment.
And then, we'll make some changealong the way.
(19:42):
but, getting people on board andbuilding those relationships, I
think, uh, you know, as a.
Teacher and a behavior analyst.
You have to build thatrelationship before you try to
teach, before you try to makeany change.
If not, you're just coming in asthe heavy hands and you know
that serves no one Well.
Jonathan (20:00):
So well said.
This is Sage advice and, and oneof my favorite books, I put it
in my top five favorite books ofall time is a book called The
First 90 Days.
I've read it several times overthe course of the last couple
decades of my career.
And, it talks about whether youare moving into a different
position at the sameorganization or moving to an
entirely new organization.
Um, do.
(20:21):
Exactly as you said, survey theenvironment.
Know.
Are you going into a turnaroundsituation versus a a startup
environment versus a realignmentversus sustaining success, which
it sounds like first steps,that's exactly what it was.
And then spend those first 90days listening.
Right, and that's hard,especially for a leader, right?
Cuz you're coming in with allkinds of energy and ideas and
(20:42):
you've got this whole experienceand skill set to draw on.
But it's so important before,like you, that that quote you
had build a relationship beforeyou try to teach so you can set
your team up for what they'llneed.
I think that's really powerful,
Matt McAlear (20:58):
Matt.
Yeah, exactly.
And then, you know, ourexperience with Kadiant and I
think really helped me learn howto do that because we had six
months of nine acquisitions,like rapid fire, like okay, we
were, the CO was the first, andI know you're good buddies with
the Lunds, you know, Coby andJanet and such an amazing
experience working with them aswell.
(21:20):
And then, you know, a number ofcompanies after that, Some of
the companies, their leadersstuck around, and others exited
and it was so much relationshipbuilding and everything was new
and people were scared andwhat's gonna happen, we just got
purchased.
it was a lot of integration,relationship building.
I think I've always believed inbuilding relationships before
(21:43):
teaching and making change, butthat really solidified it for
me.
Because there was a lot ofreally scared, freaked out
people that, our leadership teamhad to win and make sure they
knew things were gonna be okay.
Make sure they knew that theyhad empathetic, smart people on
the other side of this for them.
You know, the person they hadworked for for 15 years on
(22:04):
Thursday was there and on Fridaywasn't.
just the nature of anacquisition, you can't tell your
staff sometimes.
So there was some dramatic, notdramatic, but, quick turns, in
leadership.
So, uh, you know, again, justbuilding relationships, not
making dramatic change rightaway I think
Jonathan (22:21):
is key.
Let me ask, what keeps you up asa c e o of an ABA services
organization?
What keeps you up at night thesedays?
Matt McAlear (22:29):
Well, you know, especially as the owner of an
organization, as we grew knowingthat, there's 400, 500, however
many people that their rent,their mortgages, Their family's
dinner counts on me, counts onme making payroll counts on our
organization, making money.
That weighed on me prettyheavily and still does.
(22:51):
it's just, you know, there'shuman lives at stake and this
isn't, a game of monopoly.
there's people that have rent topay.
There's, people that havetuition to pay for their kids.
And it's up to me to make surethat this organization is
running smoothly and meeting allof our goals so we can all meet
our personal goals.
I think that was one of the bigthings.
It definitely weighed heavy onthe head sometimes,
Jonathan (23:15):
right?
It's not monopoly money.
This is not just an Excelspreadsheet of like numbers.
You're moving around these otherpeople's lives that we as
leaders and CEOs are entrustedwith.
And that is a sacred trust.
That's, that's super well saiddude.
But here's the thing.
You, you must be a masochist ora glutton for punishment or, I
don't, I don't know even knowhow to put it.
Cuz like, not only are you theCEO first, you're also the
(23:36):
executive director of Calaba,which I think is the biggest,
uh, like state ABA organizationin the country.
So, okay, here's my que myquestions are twofold, Matt.
Number one, how do you freakingfind the time?
Okay.
And number two, what willbehavior analysis look like in
California if Calaba issuccessful beyond your wildest
dreams?
Matt McAlear (23:57):
Good questions.
Uh, I think like the Calabaprobably deserves another origin
story, like how I, landed there.
So around the same time we werestarting coy 2012.
California as most states withtheir mandate, ABA starts to
boom.
The organizations start to grow.
So Jane Howard, you know, one ofthe all-time biggest brain
(24:21):
leaders in our field was theCalaba president at the time,
and gave me a call, said, Hey,you know, we're growing, the
organization's growing.
It's changing from.
A historical kind of researchand practice conference based
organization to helping ourmembership manage health plans
coming on.
How do I bill, what do I do?
So she said we could just useyou for a couple hours a week.
(24:41):
Just an easy consult.
Yeah, no problem.
We can do a couple hours a weekand you know, that was in 2012.
Here we are 11 years later andwe just had our annual
conference with 3000 people forfour days.
Uh, typically more than a couplehours a week now.
So it was another kind of bydefault, right time, right
place, building relationships.
Again, you know, I had been inSacramento a lot working on
(25:05):
issues with Jane and built arelationship and built a
trusting relationship.
So she asked me to come on.
And over time it just increasedin size and scope to the point
where the board, I think it wasin 2015, decided that, my 1099
life was done and it was time totake on an executive director
role just with the roles andresponsibilities that were, uh,
(25:25):
coming to me.
we have an amazing board ofdirectors.
We got a hardworking board thatdo, you know, there's a lot of
nonprofit boards that people areon there to get it on their CV.
Or, just say they're on theboard but don't like to do
actual work.
But we have a board that doesactual work, which is helpful.
and then we have an amazingstaff of one Emily for us, who
(25:48):
takes a big load off my plate.
So it's a challenge at times,especially, you know, our
conference, like I said, justhappened we're, you know, in the
end of March right now, as youand I are talking, So from,
November or probably November,December through March, my
CalABA have a life intensifies.
Um, but we have a good supportstaff in there.
So it's, you know, just timemanagement is the key
Jonathan (26:11):
priority management.
Matt McAlear (26:13):
Priority management for sure.
You know, there's fireseverywhere and it's just a
matter of making sure that, Ithink I do a pretty good job of
calmly addressing fires and Ipride myself on never getting
too high or too low, uh,professionally and personally.
I think it's just a good way toroll through life.
Um, what, what was your secondquestion?
(26:33):
Something, uh, a success.
Jonathan (26:36):
What, yeah.
What would behavior analysislook like in California?
If kLab is successful beyondyour wildest dreams?
Matt McAlear (26:43):
Well, um, you know, I think what we're seeing
is a new generation ofbehavioral analysts for sure.
You know, the BACB data issomething like 60% have been
certified in the last three orfive years, which is just
unreal.
Um, and I think what I wouldlike to do, and I'm sure most
(27:03):
state and professionalassociations would like to do,
is show value to those folks.
We have 8,000 plus BCBAs inCalifornia and a membership of
probably 45% of them, 40% ofthem, which I think is pretty
typical, uh, according toconversations with some of our
national organizations that seemore states than me seeing just
one.
(27:23):
But I would love to show thatCalABA has membership value to
folks other than just a discountat the conference for signing up
for your membership.
Which, you know, sometimes itdoes.
So whether that's, you know, wedo a lot of public policy work.
We do a lot of work onprotecting our practice here in
California.
we do not have licensure inCalifornia yet, so that is a big
(27:44):
priority, uh, for our board aswell.
And I think if we could getCalifornia licensed this
behavior analyst and continue toshow value to our, next
generation behavior analyst, whyjoin a trade association?
I think that would be a bigsuccess for me.
Jonathan (28:04):
I wanna double click on this, Matt.
Um, yeah.
Uh, this, this point oflicensure and help our, the
audience understand like is, Ithink it's a little over half of
us states now.
Matt McAlear (28:15):
It's 34 maybe.
See they're 33, 34.
Yeah.
Right now.
Jonathan (28:19):
Yeah.
Well, so well over half Andlicensure can be so important as
a consumer protection mechanism.
Yeah.
As a validation of thediscipline, um, and the
profession.
And, and for lots of otherreasons.
Why doesn't California havelicensure yet?
Matt McAlear (28:36):
Um, you know, a few different reasons.
So we've launched in the pastfive years, I guess two efforts.
And one, uh, there was concernsfrom within the field just
about, uh, cost.
There is an additional cost tolicense, the field.
You'd have to pay for licensurefees.
the state of California wantedto register all the
(28:56):
paraprofessionals in the fieldand, you know, there's 50,000,
60,000, whatever it is.
So number one, there would be acost and a lot of concern just
about the turnover there.
You know, do you wanna pay thestate of California, whatever
their fee would be for someonewho's gonna quit in 10 days.
Or, not make it to the year.
So we just, had to take a stepback and try to figure out the
fiscal, issues involved there.
(29:18):
And the second piece is we havesome of the allied fields in
state, not just our state, butother states, psychologists,
MFTs, lcs, ws, PCCs we have herethat, there's a little bit of a
turf war going on.
You know, they're in our statelicensed to do behavior analysis
if they state that theypersonally have it in their
scope of competence.
(29:40):
So I think there's a littlehesitation from those,
professions to licenseCalifornians as behavioral
analysts.
So we're working through that.
And again, back to the coretheme of what I've been talking
about is relationships.
What we're doing is reaching outand trying to build those
relationships with the psychassociation, the MFTs.
We started a stakeholderassociation or stakeholder
(30:00):
committee on our board.
So we have a board chair and uh,that committee and that person's
job is to develop a committee ofnon behavior analysts that have
some stake or perspective onbehavior analysis in California
and report back, give usfeedback.
What can we be doingdifferently?
How can we work better with youas parents or you as
(30:20):
psychologists, or you ascommercial health plans?
And we've gotten some reallygreat feedback, uh, from that
group so far.
So, I think it's buildingrelationships, right?
Timing.
We'll see, you know, our nexttwo year legislative cycle, is
in 2025.
So that would likely, if we'regonna, uh, have another
(30:40):
licensure bill, it would bethen, uh,
Jonathan (30:43):
Wow.
Little bit of art.
It sounds like little science,little reading teams.
Correct.
And a ton of relationshipbuilding.
It all comes back torelationship building,
Matt McAlear (30:51):
right?
It does.
It does.
And some political contributionsas well.
That helps, right.
Jonathan (30:58):
Matt?
What's one thing ABA businessowners should start doing and
one thing they should stopdoing?
Matt McAlear (31:05):
Um, start using data to run your business, I
think is probably a good thingto do.
I think a lot of clinicians whoare great clinicians and use
data every day in their clinicalpractice are just, you know,
improvising under running abusiness.
and making it kind of cascadingdown through the organization,
not making data, not making yourfinancial performance kind of
(31:28):
this thing we don't talk about,you know, we don't talk about
numbers in our organization.
It's gonna turn people off.
It feels icky and yucky.
Uh, It's what runs yourbusiness.
So I think having KPIs, keyperformance indicators that the
whole team is looking at on aregular basis.
You know, one of the changesthat we implemented at First
Steps is we just started twomonths ago, so we kind of wait a
(31:50):
little while.
We do monthly operating reviewsfor each of our regions.
So it's getting the whole teamtogether, the leader, all of our
leadership team, and everybody'slooking at the data.
How do we perform last month?
What can we do different nextmonth?
And I hope it's not a punitiveprocess, but it's just, you
know, using the data to show uswhether we're doing well or
we're not doing well.
(32:11):
So I think, using data, being agood behavior analyst, using
data to run your business iswhat you should do.
I think another really bigshould do and has worked really
well for me in my professionallife.
It's having a plan, having astrategic plan.
You know, many years ago it was,you did a five year plan, it's
just too long now, you know,things.
Change the environment, changefunding changes.
(32:32):
have an 18 month plan, have a 12month plan, and just work the
plan.
at Cal ABA we use a plan aswell, and every report that all
the board members submit for allof our meetings reports on their
goals for the plan for the next18 months.
What activities did we do atFirst Steps?
We have a plan.
At Coy, we had a plan, soeverybody is working the plan.
(32:53):
The plan should be running sideby side with a budget.
So we all know, are we in line?
Are we overspending?
Are we underspending?
And again, it's a change.
And you know, not as fun asbeing on the ground, playing
with a two year old, teaching'emhow to say mom or dad for the
first time, but your clinicdoors won't be opened if you're
not meeting your financial, inperformance goals.
(33:15):
So I think those are two thingsthat I would definitely
recommend Stop doing, I think.
I think there's a lot of young,not young, but you know, new to
the field.
Really excited folks that wantto just go right into leadership
roles.
And I think stop not paying yourdues.
(33:38):
do some time in an organization,learn what it is to be, uh,
program director, then a regiondirector, then, you know,
whatever the next title is.
Then go open your own shop.
So, you know, that's why I kindof wanted to show my origin
story.
You know, I didn't open coystraight out the gates.
That was, you know, 15 yearsinto my career.
I did.
And it served me really well to,you know, pay my dues
(34:00):
clinically, pay my duesadministratively.
Um, so I think, you know, payyour dues.
It's just part of life, youknow, it's much easier to open
it up, but I think there's a lotof mistakes to be made.
And if you do, open up a shopright away, find a mentor, find
a business mentor.
Go for leadership training, gofor business training.
I think our field could use someadditional leadership and
(34:23):
business training infused intosome of our programs.
it's not gonna be in theuniversity, B C B A program,
it's just not built into theircurriculum.
but I think organizations whoare, growing, having your own
internal mentorship andleadership academies or whatever
you want to call it, Providingsome of those soft skills, uh,
really helpful.
And again, usually not thepreferred skills that A B C B A
(34:44):
wants to know or learn, but youknow, really important for
success.
Jonathan (34:50):
So I wanna, I, this is so admirable this idea of having
a monthly operating review andjust giving your teams.
Transparency around thefinancial performance and just
generally the performance of thebusiness.
You know what I like to say ifwe're entrusting our teams with
kiddos lives, right?
Totally.
(35:10):
so if we are entrusting withthem with that, we can darn well
entrust them with how ourbusiness is doing and engage
them as partners in the nextphase of success in the
business.
So I love how you, how youdescribe that.
Matt, tell me, where can peoplefind
Matt McAlear (35:25):
you online?
Not many places they can find meon LinkedIn.
Uh, and first steps forkids.com, calaba.org.
Those are the two organizationalplaces, but, uh, my online
presence is, uh, a littlelimited by design.
Fair
Jonathan (35:43):
enough, dude.
All right, well, you ready forour
Matt McAlear (35:44):
hot take questions, sir?
Yeah, I got one for you at theend too.
True.
Nevada is fair play done.
Fair
Jonathan (35:52):
is fair.
All right, well, you're on yourdeathbed.
What's the one thing you wannabe remembered?
Matt McAlear (35:56):
Um, you know, I think being kind, just being a,
good person, having goodrelationships and nurturing
those over time, being humble Ithink is another one.
I think I'm a pretty humble dudeand I'm okay with that.
so I think being, being kind andhumble, being a good father,
being a good husband, I'd behappy with all those.
(36:22):
What's your
Jonathan (36:22):
most important self-care practice?
Matt McAlear (36:25):
Uh, getting outside, you know, I like to get
outside.
I play golf miserably, but Ireally enjoy it.
I like to be on the waterpaddleboard.
Um, like to go to the mountainshike.
Just, just getting outside iskey for me.
Take a breath every day.
Jonathan (36:43):
Right on.
What's your favorite song and ormusic
Matt McAlear (36:48):
genre?
So I'm definitely in the genrecamp, so I'm a lifelong
deadhead.
So Grateful Dead and related.
I found lots of differentstrains and genres of music
through the Grateful Dead, but Idid, uh, um, many, many Grateful
Dead shows in my day.
And, uh, that's my go-to forsure.
Jonathan (37:11):
No way.
Alright, well, like this is awhole nother podcast episode.
I also fancy myself.
As a dead head.
No, I never got to them inconcert.
I've seen all their permutationssince.
Um, but Cassidy, uh, my wife andI had many long, hard
conversations, and I want toname my daughter's Cassidy after
(37:31):
my favorite Grateful Dead song.
Needless to say, she won as sheshould have.
We did not, but oh my gosh, I,it's still, it's just, I, I'm a
sucker for any Bobby Weir songGive
Matt McAlear (37:43):
Pocket.
So his first show, 1988.
Alright, well then we've got,
Jonathan (37:50):
we've got plenty of conversation to be.
Matt McAlear (37:53):
I got the old pictures.
Oh, I can't
Jonathan (37:56):
wait.
Long hair and everything, I'msure, right?
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
What's one thing
Matt McAlear (38:01):
you tell your 18 year old self?
Um, probably a few things.
Listen, you know, be a goodlistener.
Make sure you hear people's.
Opinions, hear their thoughts.
It's a great way to learn, greatway to build relationships.
Um, trust your gut for sure.
(38:22):
I think I've rarely gone wrongwhen trust your gut or the vibes
you get from a situation or aperson.
Um, and as a 18 year old growingup in New Jersey, California
really is all obstruct up to be.
I had an aunt and uncle wholived in Tiburon, which is in
Marin County, like super wealthycommunity.
(38:44):
They used to bring my brotherand I out for, you know, a month
every summer.
And that's how I envisionedeveryone lived here in
California.
So when I moved here in 97, andthere's like six of us, two dogs
in a studio apartment for thefirst couple years.
Uh, but you know, I live in theBay Area in an hour or two in
any direction.
I'm in the desert, I'm in theocean, um, in the mountains and.
(39:07):
People, the culture, uh, it's agreat place to live and raise my
family.
Love it.
Jonathan (39:15):
Well, you can only wear one style of footwear.
What would
Matt McAlear (39:17):
it be?
Oh, my rainbows for sure.
My flips totally year round.
I walk out to school cold.
We got a atmospheric rivertoday.
Got my flips on.
Spoken like a true deadheaddude.
Oh my gosh.
Matt, thank you.
Thank you so much for beingbeing on the path.
(39:38):
Got it.
It's great cast.
I got one for you.
Okay, here's scenario.
Olympic sized swimming pool.
Mm-hmm.
Six feet of water.
Mm-hmm.
Nine foot polar bear, 12 foot.
Great white shark who comes outon top.
Hmm.
Jonathan (40:00):
So I, I, I'm gonna cheat a little and say, I think
the great white shark isn'tgonna survive in chlorinated
water.
Saltwater saltwater's in thepool.
Okay.
Saltwater in the pool eitherway.
I, I, I have a horrible fear ofdrowning and so I'm getting away
from that shark as quick as Ican.
(40:20):
I'm gonna fight the polar bear.
Um, the polar bear is,
Matt McAlear (40:23):
no, it's the polar bear versus the shark.
Oh, I don't have to fight eitherof them.
No, you're just a totalobserver.
Uh,
Jonathan (40:31):
my, i, my armpits are sweating.
They were like, my heart rate isup.
I thought I was in the pool.
Thank you for,
Matt McAlear (40:37):
thank you for clarifying that.
No, no.
I think we'd lose that one everytime.
Jonathan (40:42):
I, um, I think the shark wins
Matt McAlear (40:46):
who I'm, I'm on team Polar bear flaws and Jaws.
Jonathan (40:53):
Claws and jaws.
I, I like that.
But you know, I mean, I, I, ashark has that shark skin,
right?
And the layers of like cartilageand thing, what do they say?
Layers or players
Matt McAlear (41:02):
attack from below.
I think that's the key for me.
Six feet of water.
They might not have enough roomto attack.
They could do some damage forsure.
But anyway.
Interesting.
I'm open
Jonathan (41:13):
to persuasion.
Okay.
You're team Polar.
Bear.
I'm team.
Great.
White shark.
Um, we'll, we'll continue thatconversation with some dead in
the background.
That sounds good.
And Matt, this was
Matt McAlear (41:23):
awesome.
Thanks Paul.
Yeah, super fun.
Thanks for having me.
My guest today is Matt Maier.
Matt is a c e O of First Stepsfor Kids and serves the
executive director of theCalifornia Association for
Behavior Analysis.
He lives in Oakland, Californiawith his wife and two kids.
Matt, welcome to the pod dude.
Matt McAlear (00:45):
Thanks Jonathan.
Thanks for having me.
I'm sorry for the short biowanting ask me to do is send you
a bio and I didn't, so thanksfor winging it.
Jonathan (00:54):
I gotta tell you, I appreciate the short bio.
It's less pressure on me to makesure I'm not screwing it up.
But here's the thing.
What this short bio underlies ordoes not well represent is that
you have done so freaking muchin your career.
And that's what I want to diveinto.
and let's start with, um, Youfounded Kids Overcoming or COI,
(01:15):
and grew it over, I think sixplus years.
tell me what was the mostrewarding and the most
challenging part of thatjourney, man.
Matt McAlear (01:23):
Yeah, sure.
might be helpful if I give youlike a little bit of my ABA
origin story and even how I gotthere.
Cause I think it could of buildson itself.
So, I was an indecisiveundergrad in upstate New York,
in, you know, the probably 93,94 range, and decided to study
social work.
And my first day of my firstinternship, I was sent to a big
(01:45):
state developmental hospital.
You know, the old school, takethese people that at that point
were diagnosed with mentalretardation and put'em in the
hospital.
They live here, they work here,they play here, and the family
comes on Sundays.
Um, you know, really sad stateof affairs at that point.
And, my first job was to go feedpeanut butter and jelly to this
room full of, you know, 30 to 50year old men as snack as I
(02:07):
thought, you know, this, I cando.
So I went over with my snack andwithin literally eight minutes
of being on the job, I still, Ican show you the scar next time
we see each other.
Got this guy's jaw locked aroundmy arm, and I remember going
back to my dorm room, layingthere saying I'm either never
doing anything else again, orI'm never going back there
again.
I went back the next day andthat kind of triggered my love
(02:30):
for what, you know, probably wasa person with autism and the
science of behavior analysis.
You know why in theory, when I'mgiving this person what should
be a reinforcer, something that,you know, he was hungry.
Why he choose my arm instead?
So I could have went down thatpath and through college worked
in.
Group homes and adult programs,um, you know, in, up in upstate
(02:51):
New York, and then moved toCalifornia and became a teacher
in a non-public school.
So a school serving kids five to22 years old and the bruisers
who either their parentsadvocated for them to be out of
the district or the districtdidn't have a placement for
them.
And same organization also hadnine group homes, a huge adult
(03:12):
program with, you know, folksfrom 22 to 75 years old.
All with autism, like, you know,500 people on this campus.
so I kind of had like the birthto earth trial by fire
experience.
And then in 2006 or seven, Iguess, I was recruited by a
large national nonprofitorganization to become their
(03:32):
director of autism services.
They had formed a nationalpartnership with the Autism
Society of America.
Both these organizations saweach other's, scope and there
was this huge need for theseservices.
so I went there and started upour autism programming and uh, I
moved up to the chief clinicalofficer and this was right 2007
to 11, and that is the same timethat insurance was starting to
(03:57):
heat up in California.
So our mandate wasn't passeduntil 2012.
But there was all these casesgoing through the Department of
Managed Healthcare, which is ourregulator, and then to
independent medical review,which is, you know, a family
being great advocates andsaying, Hey, this is a medical
service.
We want this service.
And the plans were starting tolose those on the regular.
So we reached out to the largestnonprofit commercial health plan
(04:21):
in California and said, Hey, wecan solve your pain point and we
can be your go-to person forthese cases.
So they started giving us thesecases.
One off this, they came, andthen 2010, 11, they started
seeing the writing on the wallthing.
There's gonna be a mandate we'regonna have to pay for these
services.
Let's form a partnership here.
So, myself and then my eventualbusiness partner at Coy Ann
(04:42):
Swinney, she was the chief, uh,financial officer.
I was the chief clinicalofficer.
We signed a statewide contractfor services with this large,
you can figure out who it is,provider of services in
California.
And then about six months intothat, we said, hold on.
Why don't we do this forourselves?
So we called the Chief MedicalOfficer and said, Hey, if we
were gonna open a shop, wouldyou send us kids?
(05:02):
They said, well, we just signed.
This pretty significant contractwith you.
You know, we trust you.
So yes, that was kind of thebirth of coy, uh, kids
overcoming.
So we started literally inAnne's basement, full
entrepreneur style.
our staff meetings were peoplesitting on her kids' bunk beds
to start.
super startupy, which was somuch fun.
(05:22):
And we took some of our peoplethat had worked for me at the
school and then followed us tothe nonprofit, they came over.
So it was really like, as anentrepreneur, a pretty easy
startup.
We had a contract, we had kidsright away.
We had a staff right away.
So that's kinda how we gotstarted.
And then for your initialquestion, we built, our
organization over six-ish yearsuntil we, transacted and we
(05:45):
built it across four states.
We had, you know, 400 ish staff.
And I think the most excitingthing for me was just
surrounding, and what I stilllove to do today is just
surrounding myself as goodpeople.
I like to do that in my personallife.
I like to do that in my businesslife.
Just kind smart people who areall kind of looking in the same
(06:06):
direction.
Does that help, that help kindaset the stage for things a
little bit?
Jonathan (06:11):
I mean, I've got 1,000,001 questions about this
original peanut butter and jellyand the bite, and I'm so good.
Gosh, our field is so lucky thatyou chose to go down the blue
pill and, and you went back thenext day.
But it's one of the things Ithink people don't fully
appreciate about.
Um, Entrepreneurship is the truepower of having a partner,
right?
Because this is a lonelyfreaking journey, and I didn't
(06:33):
appreciate that you and Anne metthat far back at a prior
organization before in
Matt McAlear (06:37):
2007.
We've been working side byseven, so,
Jonathan (06:40):
and you're still working together today, we're
gonna talk about that
Matt McAlear (06:42):
correct.
Jonathan (06:42):
Uh, in a moment, the first step.
But, tell me what was it inAnne, or what did you all see in
each other that just made it sonatural to work together?
how do you pinpoint evaluatingthe right partner?
Matt McAlear (06:54):
Yeah.
So I think, there's gotta beinterpersonal connection.
You know, we, we get along well,we work well together.
We respect each other's space.
You know, I think what isinteresting with our
relationship is, I guess likeour families don't go on
vacation together.
You know, like we see each othersocially.
We both live in the same town,but, we have separate lives and
I think that's helpful as well.
Uh, and I think the mostimportant thing other than the
(07:17):
interpersonal connection is thatwe have.
Really well developednon-competing skillsets.
So I'm A B, C, B A.
I look at things from theclinical side, the operational
side, and as a cpa.
So she is a certified publicaccountant who looks at things
from also a very operationalside.
But then all the financialpieces that are not my preferred
(07:38):
skills or tasks to deal with areright in her wheelhouse.
And I think, both of thosethings combined have really
served us well.
Over the years.
So we worked, you know, at thatnonprofit together, we started
coy together.
We were at our next journeyafter COI that we, I'm sure
we'll talk about.
And now in our current, roles,we're able to work together as
well.
So it's been a really greatlong-term relationship.
Jonathan (08:00):
I, I love that notion of a non-competing skillset, a
complimentary set that allowsCorrect.
You all both focus on the thingsyou enjoy doing and the things
that are in your wheelhouse.
So you and Anne made a decisionto sell Coy Kadiant.
and one thing we share incommon, uh, you know, I would
not be in the autism servicesfield if not for Lanny Fritz,
(08:23):
who started trumpet behavioralhealth many, many years ago.
And, which I joined in in 2012.
And then he subsequently went onto start Kadiant.
And I mean, just, you talk aboutsalt of the earth, human beings.
And leaders, I'll follow him tothe ends of the earth.
And so clearly I get he wantedto be a part of, Kadiant.
but tell me more about whatprompted you to sell, and then
what, what do you know now thatyou wish you knew when you
(08:47):
started that process?
Matt McAlear (08:48):
Hmm.
Good questions.
Um, so, you know, around, so westarted a late 2011, early 2012.
Our transaction was finalized inApril, 2019.
So from like 16 to 19, you know,just kind of looking at the
fields, how things are moving,getting as every entrepreneur
and business owner has for thelast five or seven years, calls
(09:11):
from every investment grouparound who are you know,
smelling the blood in the waterof, money from the commercial
plans coming in, looking to getinto the game.
we knew that a transaction wasprobably inevitable, so let's
plan for it.
And I think we did a really goodjob, a thoughtful job of, you
know, building the scope of ourcompany.
So it created value.
(09:32):
We went across state lines,which also creates value.
Just showing that, you can run acompany in your hometown, sure,
but can you deal with anotherstate's regulations?
Can you deal with anotherstate's licensure?
Can you deal with anotherstate's payers and still keep
the margin that the eventual uh,buyer is looking for?
So I think that we did thatreally well.
I think another thing that, washelpful to set us up for success
(09:54):
is we always worked on astrategic plan.
So we brought in a third party,guy named Peter Doms.
I'll give him a plug.
Peter is awesome.
He's from Western Michigan.
He's done plans for, you know, alot of our large organizations
in our fields.
And, I've him at CalABA.
And so I, we brought in Peterand we said, Hey Peter, here's
what our eventual goal is inthree years.
(10:16):
We had two 18 month plans withPeter and our leadership team.
So, we all worked the plan, likeevery one of our meetings was
like, what's your goal?
If we're not, if it's not on theplan, let's not work towards it.
so that was really helpful toset us up for success.
And then when we went down theroad with.
a buyer that didn't work out andI think that's a good thing.
(10:36):
And right around that same time,Lanny had moved his family after
his trumpet uh, sale, he movedhis family, as you know, to
Spain and they spent a year justhaving the most unbelievable
experience it sounds like,homeschooling their kids and
traveling all over Europe for ayear.
Uh, and then he came back andhe's got a big brain and a big
heart and he had lots of folkssaying, Hey, we want to back you
(10:57):
to open the next.
Uh, you know, kind ofmulti-company company.
So he had TPG approach him andthen Lanny approached us.
And Lanny is also, you know, apersonal friend.
We've been on boards togetherand just kinda the conference
social scene.
so having Loni involved was abig differentiator for us.
our vision and our valuesaligned.
(11:19):
the vision that he had forKadiant was one that I was, you
know, like when you sell yourbusiness, It's your baby.
You know, we spent a lot of timeworking on this thing.
You don't wanna just hand itoff.
I didn't wanna hand it off tosomeone that I couldn't trust.
So, having Lanni involved was abig decision for us, and we went
down the road and got it done.
Jonathan (11:40):
what do you wish you knew at the time as you went
through that process,
Matt McAlear (11:45):
I wish I knew how intense the due diligence.
Was gonna be, uh, it wasintense.
So TPG is a, you know, large,and this was their their first
take on purchasing a behavioralhealth company first look at
aba.
So they put us through thegrinder and it was, you know,
six months of pretty much afull-time job for Anne and I
(12:07):
while trying to run a company.
So, it was quite intense, just,you know, pouring over.
Every part of your business.
And it was really helpful forus, I think, to know, in
advance, we knew that there wasgonna be some diligence.
We had our books in order, wehad, you know, things
accessible.
Uh, hiring a great attorney Ithink is another, like you must
(12:27):
have a great attorney and youmust have someone with m and a
mergers and acquisitionexperience just to help with the
diligence efforts.
Talk to the other attorney,negotiate your deal.
So we did have that, on ourside.
But I think if I knew howintense the diligence would've
been, I would've stacked ourteam with a few more folks.
There was, 18 hour days for, Annand I trying to come up with all
(12:49):
that stuff going against, youknow, TPG and PWCs team of, you
know, 75 associates.
So it was a, it was a lot, butwe got it done.
Jonathan (13:01):
I, I empathize.
You know, I was with a largenational provider and we did
several rounds of fundraisingand it, I, well, I'll never
forget, Matt, it was like I hadan 8:30 AM to 5:30 PM job, and
then like you put the kids tobed and then I felt like I had
my like 9:00 PM to 2:00 AM joband that can be super
distracting, right?
Because you got kiddos to serve,you got team members to support,
you got payer relationships andother referral source
(13:22):
relationships to keep up.
I mean, the list goes on and on.
So what recommendations do youhave for an ABA owner who's
considering joining a largerpractice.
Matt McAlear (13:33):
So I think, you know, doing your own due
diligence on the buyer, youknow, is this a good fit?
What's their turn?
You know, are they gonna holdonto the company for two years,
three years, five years?
I think the biggest, piece forme personally was like, what's
my role?
Is there a role for me?
I wasn't ready to go off intothe sunset.
and thankfully Lani's Vision wasto have, both Anne and I and
(13:56):
some of the other brilliantfolks that we ended up working
with Kadiant and have rolesthere.
But that's not the case foreverybody and some people are
ready to go retire.
Um, so I think understandingwhat role, if any, would be
there for you.
Definitely making sure that yourvalues and vision are aligned.
Um, that's a really importantpiece.
You know, just making sure thatthis is a company that you can
(14:18):
buy in, that when you have thattransaction, you're letting go
of everything.
Is this the place you wanna sendyour, company to?
So those would be two thingsthat I would definitely look out
for
Jonathan (14:32):
Sage advice.
And, um, gosh, just to emphasizeoverindex in my mind, it's so
important to Overindex and spendway more time than you'd ever
think.
Ensuring that last point isthere vision and values
alignment with thisorganization?
I'm gonna be part of, if youwant to keep in your case, being
part of that organization.
Matt McAlear (14:48):
another important piece too.
You know?
Is there a role for your team onthe new team?
You know, some folks will makean acquisition, just let that
company run as it is.
In theory, if they're purchasingit, probably making a little bit
of, uh, profit, will they letthem run or is it that all of
the back office team are gonnabe consolidated?
And then you have your hr, yourpayroll, your billing people out
(15:09):
of work.
And if so, you know, as abusiness owner, I think anybody
that goes through yourtransaction, make sure you take
care of your team as well.
You know, you might be the ownerof the company, but there are
people that worked really hardto get you to that point of
success.
And I think either making surethat you take care of them or
it's negotiated in your dealthat you know they're taken care
(15:30):
of and they have a soft landingspot and some kind of runway or,
uh, financial runway or careertransition services, et cetera,
is a really important piece.
Jonathan (15:42):
So well said.
I mean, you've all been part ofthat journey right up to that
point and honoring them, andthat is critical.
Well, here's what's sointeresting because about your
story is you had thisunbelievable opportunity.
So now subsequent to selling,COI to Kadiant, You had an
opportunity to become CEO ofanother ABA services
(16:03):
organization, first Step, uh,and for whom you've been CEO for
I think almost a year now.
Um, yep.
And so this is really powerful.
The
Matt McAlear (16:11):
job I told myself I would never have again.
It's amazing
Jonathan (16:16):
what amnesia entrepreneurs have, right?
Yeah.
It's like a survival instinct.
What is it?
What did you do differently inyour first year as ceo?
At First step based on what youlearned from COI and your time
at Kadiant?
Sure.
Matt McAlear (16:31):
So, uh, you know, after I left Kadian, we did
three years post-acquisitionleft.
And I said, you know, as I justsaid, I'm never again gonna be a
ceo, E o I'm never again gonnado day-to-day operations.
And I was, you know, hell benton that.
And then I think it was at theCASP conference, I ran into Jen
Harris, who is the owner.
Dr.
(16:52):
Jen Harris is the owner of FirstSteps.
And she had also been on theboard with me at Calva for I
think nine years, close to adecade.
So we have a good personalrelationship, good working
relationship, and she's like, ohmy God, you're not there
anymore.
Come work with me.
Oh, definitely not.
No possible way am I gonna dothat.
And you know, we had subsequentconversation.
She came up, we went out todinner, you know, talked it
(17:14):
over.
And uh, the thing that reallydrew me to First Steps is number
one, it's a company that's beenaround 18 years.
So Jen was a UCLA study withLova, was number six or eight or
nine employee at card, you know,been in the field forever and
just does it right.
The reputation precedes them.
they have an amazing team.
(17:35):
We have, you know, CourtneyTarbox is our Chief Clinical
Officer.
Jonathan Tarbox is the directorof research.
So working with a team like thatpiqued my interest a little bit
and then looking at, They're,um, BCBAs and region directors,
et cetera.
The tenure of those folks in,there's five clinics and at each
of the clinics, there's probablyat least five, probably closer
(17:55):
to 10 BCBAs that have been withthe organization for 8, 10, 12,
15 years, which is just unheardof.
So between the, you know, tenureof the team, the culture of the
organization, so I decided, yep,I'm gonna do this.
And I had, one other caveat forJen was I get to bring Ann
along.
Guys, you know, goodnon-competing skillsets.
(18:17):
So Anne come along as the COO..
So I think, coming into awell-established, great
reputation company versus kindof coy, the startup, put me in a
different mode as the ceo.
And I think my first, ninemonths-ish here at first Apps,
there's been a lot of listening.
A lot of just getting to learnwho people are, how they do
(18:39):
things, why they do things,learn about the clinical
programs, kind of dig into theoperations side.
So really trying to do no harmfirst has been my mantra.
come in, try to make some quickhigh value changes for the team
so they can feel the difference.
like a good behavior analysttrying to pair myself.
Was something that's reinforcingto their team.
(19:00):
Uh, and I think we've done apretty good job of that.
And, you know, the next step isnow like, okay, what systems can
we change?
What processes can we change togain some efficiency?
another big difference betweenmy previous life at Kadiant and
First Steps is it First Steps isentirely privately held by Jen
and her husband, Greg Harris,versus having a board to report
(19:20):
to.
it's Jen, Ann, and I on thephone.
Like, okay, can we do this?
Yep, we can do this.
So it's the being a little moreagile, uh, than working in a, a
large organization has been, uh,it's been nice, a little esque,
uh, I should say.
So, you know, a lot oflistening, a lot of scanning of
the environment.
And then, we'll make some changealong the way.
(19:42):
but, getting people on board andbuilding those relationships, I
think, uh, you know, as a.
Teacher and a behavior analyst.
You have to build thatrelationship before you try to
teach, before you try to makeany change.
If not, you're just coming in asthe heavy hands and you know
that serves no one Well.
Jonathan (20:00):
So well said.
This is Sage advice and, and oneof my favorite books, I put it
in my top five favorite books ofall time is a book called The
First 90 Days.
I've read it several times overthe course of the last couple
decades of my career.
And, it talks about whether youare moving into a different
position at the sameorganization or moving to an
entirely new organization.
Um, do.
(20:21):
Exactly as you said, survey theenvironment.
Know.
Are you going into a turnaroundsituation versus a a startup
environment versus a realignmentversus sustaining success, which
it sounds like first steps,that's exactly what it was.
And then spend those first 90days listening.
Right, and that's hard,especially for a leader, right?
Cuz you're coming in with allkinds of energy and ideas and
(20:42):
you've got this whole experienceand skill set to draw on.
But it's so important before,like you, that that quote you
had build a relationship beforeyou try to teach so you can set
your team up for what they'llneed.
I think that's really powerful,
Matt McAlear (20:58):
Matt.
Yeah, exactly.
And then, you know, ourexperience with Kadiant and I
think really helped me learn howto do that because we had six
months of nine acquisitions,like rapid fire, like okay, we
were, the CO was the first, andI know you're good buddies with
the Lunds, you know, Coby andJanet and such an amazing
experience working with them aswell.
(21:20):
And then, you know, a number ofcompanies after that, Some of
the companies, their leadersstuck around, and others exited
and it was so much relationshipbuilding and everything was new
and people were scared andwhat's gonna happen, we just got
purchased.
it was a lot of integration,relationship building.
I think I've always believed inbuilding relationships before
(21:43):
teaching and making change, butthat really solidified it for
me.
Because there was a lot ofreally scared, freaked out
people that, our leadership teamhad to win and make sure they
knew things were gonna be okay.
Make sure they knew that theyhad empathetic, smart people on
the other side of this for them.
You know, the person they hadworked for for 15 years on
(22:04):
Thursday was there and on Fridaywasn't.
just the nature of anacquisition, you can't tell your
staff sometimes.
So there was some dramatic, notdramatic, but, quick turns, in
leadership.
So, uh, you know, again, justbuilding relationships, not
making dramatic change rightaway I think
Jonathan (22:21):
is key.
Let me ask, what keeps you up asa c e o of an ABA services
organization?
What keeps you up at night thesedays?
Matt McAlear (22:29):
Well, you know, especially as the owner of an
organization, as we grew knowingthat, there's 400, 500, however
many people that their rent,their mortgages, Their family's
dinner counts on me, counts onme making payroll counts on our
organization, making money.
That weighed on me prettyheavily and still does.
(22:51):
it's just, you know, there'shuman lives at stake and this
isn't, a game of monopoly.
there's people that have rent topay.
There's, people that havetuition to pay for their kids.
And it's up to me to make surethat this organization is
running smoothly and meeting allof our goals so we can all meet
our personal goals.
I think that was one of the bigthings.
It definitely weighed heavy onthe head sometimes,
Jonathan (23:15):
right?
It's not monopoly money.
This is not just an Excelspreadsheet of like numbers.
You're moving around these otherpeople's lives that we as
leaders and CEOs are entrustedwith.
And that is a sacred trust.
That's, that's super well saiddude.
But here's the thing.
You, you must be a masochist ora glutton for punishment or, I
don't, I don't know even knowhow to put it.
Cuz like, not only are you theCEO first, you're also the
(23:36):
executive director of Calaba,which I think is the biggest,
uh, like state ABA organizationin the country.
So, okay, here's my que myquestions are twofold, Matt.
Number one, how do you freakingfind the time?
Okay.
And number two, what willbehavior analysis look like in
California if Calaba issuccessful beyond your wildest
dreams?
Matt McAlear (23:57):
Good questions.
Uh, I think like the Calabaprobably deserves another origin
story, like how I, landed there.
So around the same time we werestarting coy 2012.
California as most states withtheir mandate, ABA starts to
boom.
The organizations start to grow.
So Jane Howard, you know, one ofthe all-time biggest brain
(24:21):
leaders in our field was theCalaba president at the time,
and gave me a call, said, Hey,you know, we're growing, the
organization's growing.
It's changing from.
A historical kind of researchand practice conference based
organization to helping ourmembership manage health plans
coming on.
How do I bill, what do I do?
So she said we could just useyou for a couple hours a week.
(24:41):
Just an easy consult.
Yeah, no problem.
We can do a couple hours a weekand you know, that was in 2012.
Here we are 11 years later andwe just had our annual
conference with 3000 people forfour days.
Uh, typically more than a couplehours a week now.
So it was another kind of bydefault, right time, right
place, building relationships.
Again, you know, I had been inSacramento a lot working on
(25:05):
issues with Jane and built arelationship and built a
trusting relationship.
So she asked me to come on.
And over time it just increasedin size and scope to the point
where the board, I think it wasin 2015, decided that, my 1099
life was done and it was time totake on an executive director
role just with the roles andresponsibilities that were, uh,
(25:25):
coming to me.
we have an amazing board ofdirectors.
We got a hardworking board thatdo, you know, there's a lot of
nonprofit boards that people areon there to get it on their CV.
Or, just say they're on theboard but don't like to do
actual work.
But we have a board that doesactual work, which is helpful.
and then we have an amazingstaff of one Emily for us, who
(25:48):
takes a big load off my plate.
So it's a challenge at times,especially, you know, our
conference, like I said, justhappened we're, you know, in the
end of March right now, as youand I are talking, So from,
November or probably November,December through March, my
CalABA have a life intensifies.
Um, but we have a good supportstaff in there.
So it's, you know, just timemanagement is the key
Jonathan (26:11):
priority management.
Matt McAlear (26:13):
Priority management for sure.
You know, there's fireseverywhere and it's just a
matter of making sure that, Ithink I do a pretty good job of
calmly addressing fires and Ipride myself on never getting
too high or too low, uh,professionally and personally.
I think it's just a good way toroll through life.
Um, what, what was your secondquestion?
(26:33):
Something, uh, a success.
Jonathan (26:36):
What, yeah.
What would behavior analysislook like in California?
If kLab is successful beyondyour wildest dreams?
Matt McAlear (26:43):
Well, um, you know, I think what we're seeing
is a new generation ofbehavioral analysts for sure.
You know, the BACB data issomething like 60% have been
certified in the last three orfive years, which is just
unreal.
Um, and I think what I wouldlike to do, and I'm sure most
(27:03):
state and professionalassociations would like to do,
is show value to those folks.
We have 8,000 plus BCBAs inCalifornia and a membership of
probably 45% of them, 40% ofthem, which I think is pretty
typical, uh, according toconversations with some of our
national organizations that seemore states than me seeing just
one.
(27:23):
But I would love to show thatCalABA has membership value to
folks other than just a discountat the conference for signing up
for your membership.
Which, you know, sometimes itdoes.
So whether that's, you know, wedo a lot of public policy work.
We do a lot of work onprotecting our practice here in
California.
we do not have licensure inCalifornia yet, so that is a big
(27:44):
priority, uh, for our board aswell.
And I think if we could getCalifornia licensed this
behavior analyst and continue toshow value to our, next
generation behavior analyst, whyjoin a trade association?
I think that would be a bigsuccess for me.
Jonathan (28:04):
I wanna double click on this, Matt.
Um, yeah.
Uh, this, this point oflicensure and help our, the
audience understand like is, Ithink it's a little over half of
us states now.
Matt McAlear (28:15):
It's 34 maybe.
See they're 33, 34.
Yeah.
Right now.
Jonathan (28:19):
Yeah.
Well, so well over half Andlicensure can be so important as
a consumer protection mechanism.
Yeah.
As a validation of thediscipline, um, and the
profession.
And, and for lots of otherreasons.
Why doesn't California havelicensure yet?
Matt McAlear (28:36):
Um, you know, a few different reasons.
So we've launched in the pastfive years, I guess two efforts.
And one, uh, there was concernsfrom within the field just
about, uh, cost.
There is an additional cost tolicense, the field.
You'd have to pay for licensurefees.
the state of California wantedto register all the
(28:56):
paraprofessionals in the fieldand, you know, there's 50,000,
60,000, whatever it is.
So number one, there would be acost and a lot of concern just
about the turnover there.
You know, do you wanna pay thestate of California, whatever
their fee would be for someonewho's gonna quit in 10 days.
Or, not make it to the year.
So we just, had to take a stepback and try to figure out the
fiscal, issues involved there.
(29:18):
And the second piece is we havesome of the allied fields in
state, not just our state, butother states, psychologists,
MFTs, lcs, ws, PCCs we have herethat, there's a little bit of a
turf war going on.
You know, they're in our statelicensed to do behavior analysis
if they state that theypersonally have it in their
scope of competence.
(29:40):
So I think there's a littlehesitation from those,
professions to licenseCalifornians as behavioral
analysts.
So we're working through that.
And again, back to the coretheme of what I've been talking
about is relationships.
What we're doing is reaching outand trying to build those
relationships with the psychassociation, the MFTs.
We started a stakeholderassociation or stakeholder
(30:00):
committee on our board.
So we have a board chair and uh,that committee and that person's
job is to develop a committee ofnon behavior analysts that have
some stake or perspective onbehavior analysis in California
and report back, give usfeedback.
What can we be doingdifferently?
How can we work better with youas parents or you as
(30:20):
psychologists, or you ascommercial health plans?
And we've gotten some reallygreat feedback, uh, from that
group so far.
So, I think it's buildingrelationships, right?
Timing.
We'll see, you know, our nexttwo year legislative cycle, is
in 2025.
So that would likely, if we'regonna, uh, have another
(30:40):
licensure bill, it would bethen, uh,
Jonathan (30:43):
Wow.
Little bit of art.
It sounds like little science,little reading teams.
Correct.
And a ton of relationshipbuilding.
It all comes back torelationship building,
Matt McAlear (30:51):
right?
It does.
It does.
And some political contributionsas well.
That helps, right.
Jonathan (30:58):
Matt?
What's one thing ABA businessowners should start doing and
one thing they should stopdoing?
Matt McAlear (31:05):
Um, start using data to run your business, I
think is probably a good thingto do.
I think a lot of clinicians whoare great clinicians and use
data every day in their clinicalpractice are just, you know,
improvising under running abusiness.
and making it kind of cascadingdown through the organization,
not making data, not making yourfinancial performance kind of
(31:28):
this thing we don't talk about,you know, we don't talk about
numbers in our organization.
It's gonna turn people off.
It feels icky and yucky.
Uh, It's what runs yourbusiness.
So I think having KPIs, keyperformance indicators that the
whole team is looking at on aregular basis.
You know, one of the changesthat we implemented at First
Steps is we just started twomonths ago, so we kind of wait a
(31:50):
little while.
We do monthly operating reviewsfor each of our regions.
So it's getting the whole teamtogether, the leader, all of our
leadership team, and everybody'slooking at the data.
How do we perform last month?
What can we do different nextmonth?
And I hope it's not a punitiveprocess, but it's just, you
know, using the data to show uswhether we're doing well or
we're not doing well.
(32:11):
So I think, using data, being agood behavior analyst, using
data to run your business iswhat you should do.
I think another really bigshould do and has worked really
well for me in my professionallife.
It's having a plan, having astrategic plan.
You know, many years ago it was,you did a five year plan, it's
just too long now, you know,things.
Change the environment, changefunding changes.
(32:32):
have an 18 month plan, have a 12month plan, and just work the
plan.
at Cal ABA we use a plan aswell, and every report that all
the board members submit for allof our meetings reports on their
goals for the plan for the next18 months.
What activities did we do atFirst Steps?
We have a plan.
At Coy, we had a plan, soeverybody is working the plan.
(32:53):
The plan should be running sideby side with a budget.
So we all know, are we in line?
Are we overspending?
Are we underspending?
And again, it's a change.
And you know, not as fun asbeing on the ground, playing
with a two year old, teaching'emhow to say mom or dad for the
first time, but your clinicdoors won't be opened if you're
not meeting your financial, inperformance goals.
(33:15):
So I think those are two thingsthat I would definitely
recommend Stop doing, I think.
I think there's a lot of young,not young, but you know, new to
the field.
Really excited folks that wantto just go right into leadership
roles.
And I think stop not paying yourdues.
(33:38):
do some time in an organization,learn what it is to be, uh,
program director, then a regiondirector, then, you know,
whatever the next title is.
Then go open your own shop.
So, you know, that's why I kindof wanted to show my origin
story.
You know, I didn't open coystraight out the gates.
That was, you know, 15 yearsinto my career.
I did.
And it served me really well to,you know, pay my dues
(34:00):
clinically, pay my duesadministratively.
Um, so I think, you know, payyour dues.
It's just part of life, youknow, it's much easier to open
it up, but I think there's a lotof mistakes to be made.
And if you do, open up a shopright away, find a mentor, find
a business mentor.
Go for leadership training, gofor business training.
I think our field could use someadditional leadership and
(34:23):
business training infused intosome of our programs.
it's not gonna be in theuniversity, B C B A program,
it's just not built into theircurriculum.
but I think organizations whoare, growing, having your own
internal mentorship andleadership academies or whatever
you want to call it, Providingsome of those soft skills, uh,
really helpful.
And again, usually not thepreferred skills that A B C B A
(34:44):
wants to know or learn, but youknow, really important for
success.
Jonathan (34:50):
So I wanna, I, this is so admirable this idea of having
a monthly operating review andjust giving your teams.
Transparency around thefinancial performance and just
generally the performance of thebusiness.
You know what I like to say ifwe're entrusting our teams with
kiddos lives, right?
Totally.
(35:10):
so if we are entrusting withthem with that, we can darn well
entrust them with how ourbusiness is doing and engage
them as partners in the nextphase of success in the
business.
So I love how you, how youdescribe that.
Matt, tell me, where can peoplefind
Matt McAlear (35:25):
you online?
Not many places they can find meon LinkedIn.
Uh, and first steps forkids.com, calaba.org.
Those are the two organizationalplaces, but, uh, my online
presence is, uh, a littlelimited by design.
Fair
Jonathan (35:43):
enough, dude.
All right, well, you ready forour
Matt McAlear (35:44):
hot take questions, sir?
Yeah, I got one for you at theend too.
True.
Nevada is fair play done.
Fair
Jonathan (35:52):
is fair.
All right, well, you're on yourdeathbed.
What's the one thing you wannabe remembered?
Matt McAlear (35:56):
Um, you know, I think being kind, just being a,
good person, having goodrelationships and nurturing
those over time, being humble Ithink is another one.
I think I'm a pretty humble dudeand I'm okay with that.
so I think being, being kind andhumble, being a good father,
being a good husband, I'd behappy with all those.
(36:22):
What's your
Jonathan (36:22):
most important self-care practice?
Matt McAlear (36:25):
Uh, getting outside, you know, I like to get
outside.
I play golf miserably, but Ireally enjoy it.
I like to be on the waterpaddleboard.
Um, like to go to the mountainshike.
Just, just getting outside iskey for me.
Take a breath every day.
Jonathan (36:43):
Right on.
What's your favorite song and ormusic
Matt McAlear (36:48):
genre?
So I'm definitely in the genrecamp, so I'm a lifelong
deadhead.
So Grateful Dead and related.
I found lots of differentstrains and genres of music
through the Grateful Dead, but Idid, uh, um, many, many Grateful
Dead shows in my day.
And, uh, that's my go-to forsure.
Jonathan (37:11):
No way.
Alright, well, like this is awhole nother podcast episode.
I also fancy myself.
As a dead head.
No, I never got to them inconcert.
I've seen all their permutationssince.
Um, but Cassidy, uh, my wife andI had many long, hard
conversations, and I want toname my daughter's Cassidy after
(37:31):
my favorite Grateful Dead song.
Needless to say, she won as sheshould have.
We did not, but oh my gosh, I,it's still, it's just, I, I'm a
sucker for any Bobby Weir songGive
Matt McAlear (37:43):
Pocket.
So his first show, 1988.
Alright, well then we've got,
Jonathan (37:50):
we've got plenty of conversation to be.
Matt McAlear (37:53):
I got the old pictures.
Oh, I can't
Jonathan (37:56):
wait.
Long hair and everything, I'msure, right?
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
What's one thing
Matt McAlear (38:01):
you tell your 18 year old self?
Um, probably a few things.
Listen, you know, be a goodlistener.
Make sure you hear people's.
Opinions, hear their thoughts.
It's a great way to learn, greatway to build relationships.
Um, trust your gut for sure.
(38:22):
I think I've rarely gone wrongwhen trust your gut or the vibes
you get from a situation or aperson.
Um, and as a 18 year old growingup in New Jersey, California
really is all obstruct up to be.
I had an aunt and uncle wholived in Tiburon, which is in
Marin County, like super wealthycommunity.
(38:44):
They used to bring my brotherand I out for, you know, a month
every summer.
And that's how I envisionedeveryone lived here in
California.
So when I moved here in 97, andthere's like six of us, two dogs
in a studio apartment for thefirst couple years.
Uh, but you know, I live in theBay Area in an hour or two in
any direction.
I'm in the desert, I'm in theocean, um, in the mountains and.
(39:07):
People, the culture, uh, it's agreat place to live and raise my
family.
Love it.
Jonathan (39:15):
Well, you can only wear one style of footwear.
What would
Matt McAlear (39:17):
it be?
Oh, my rainbows for sure.
My flips totally year round.
I walk out to school cold.
We got a atmospheric rivertoday.
Got my flips on.
Spoken like a true deadheaddude.
Oh my gosh.
Matt, thank you.
Thank you so much for beingbeing on the path.
(39:38):
Got it.
It's great cast.
I got one for you.
Okay, here's scenario.
Olympic sized swimming pool.
Mm-hmm.
Six feet of water.
Mm-hmm.
Nine foot polar bear, 12 foot.
Great white shark who comes outon top.
Hmm.
Jonathan (40:00):
So I, I, I'm gonna cheat a little and say, I think
the great white shark isn'tgonna survive in chlorinated
water.
Saltwater saltwater's in thepool.
Okay.
Saltwater in the pool eitherway.
I, I, I have a horrible fear ofdrowning and so I'm getting away
from that shark as quick as Ican.
(40:20):
I'm gonna fight the polar bear.
Um, the polar bear is,
Matt McAlear (40:23):
no, it's the polar bear versus the shark.
Oh, I don't have to fight eitherof them.
No, you're just a totalobserver.
Uh,
Jonathan (40:31):
my, i, my armpits are sweating.
They were like, my heart rate isup.
I thought I was in the pool.
Thank you for,
Matt McAlear (40:37):
thank you for clarifying that.
No, no.
I think we'd lose that one everytime.
Jonathan (40:42):
I, um, I think the shark wins
Matt McAlear (40:46):
who I'm, I'm on team Polar bear flaws and Jaws.
Jonathan (40:53):
Claws and jaws.
I, I like that.
But you know, I mean, I, I, ashark has that shark skin,
right?
And the layers of like cartilageand thing, what do they say?
Layers or players
Matt McAlear (41:02):
attack from below.
I think that's the key for me.
Six feet of water.
They might not have enough roomto attack.
They could do some damage forsure.
But anyway.
Interesting.
I'm open
Jonathan (41:13):
to persuasion.
Okay.
You're team Polar.
Bear.
I'm team.
Great.
White shark.
Um, we'll, we'll continue thatconversation with some dead in
the background.
That sounds good.
And Matt, this was
Matt McAlear (41:23):
awesome.
Thanks Paul.
Yeah, super fun.
Thanks for having me.
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