October 10, 2023 • 48 mins
Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions
Intro/outro Music Credit: song "Tailor Made" by Yari and bensound.com
Give us a rating at Apple Music, Spotify or your favorite podcast channel:
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/building-better-businesses-in-aba/id1603909082
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0H5LzHYPKq5Qnmsue9HTwn
Check out Element RCM to learn more about billing & insurance support for Applied Behavior Analysis providers
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/element-rcm
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elementrcm/
Follow the Pod:
Web: https://elementrcm.ai/building-better-businesses-in-aba/
LinkedIn: https://www.instagram.com/buildingbetterbusinessesaba/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/buildingbetterbusinessesa...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan (00:29):
My guest today is Dana Meller.
Dana is the co founder of Passthe Big ABA exam and CEO of
Behavioral InterventionSpecialists of Los Angeles, a
BCBA and former Broadwayperformer.
Dana is an industry thoughtleader, an advocate for
underrepresented communities inABA, a frequent speaker on
topics ranging fromentrepreneurship,
professionalism, diversity, andinclusion, and a mentor to
(00:50):
countless students who havesucceeded in passing the Big ABA
exam.
She's a graduate of New YorkUniversity, and she currently
serves on the boards of BlackApplied Behavior Analysis.
and Latino Association forBehavior Analysis.
Dana, welcome to the pod.
Dana Meller (01:05):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Jonathan (01:08):
I am thrilled to have you and I've got to say I
recently saw I think it was avideo of you on LinkedIn that
you posted about May the 4th bewith you and like full no shame
disclosure.
Like I'm a huge Star Wars fan.
I don't know if you are but yourpost was you were dressed up as
princess Leia and you were, um,uh, it was on response blocking
(01:29):
and extinction.
Can you reenact that for me orlike, tell me more about this.
Dana Meller (01:33):
Well, I have to be honest with you.
I'm not a Star Wars fan, and Iknow that, I lose nerd points
with that, right?
if I'm honest, the, team at PTBthought that would be hilarious,
so I just got a picture from theinternet.
And, did the most famous one,obviously with the two side buns
and she's holding what lookslike a gun of sorts.
Obviously I don't have a rifleor a gun at my house.
(01:56):
So I just got the Thera Gun, youknow, the massaging thing.
and I just did my regular weeklyYouTube video.
I mean, the content was alreadyplanned.
The buns were um, that was anadded thing.
Nothing to really react.
I wish I could fulfill your StarWars fantasies right now, but
I'm not that girl.
Jonathan (02:14):
Oh my God, that would be a whole new level for this
pod Dana reenacting Star Warsfantasies.
I don't know that we need to gothere, but we might have to
record a separate session aroundthat.
Let's talk about, like, you're aco founder of Pass the Big ABA
exam.
And so, for listeners who don'tknow, I mean, go look this up.
This is, you are a nationallyrecognized, Internationally
(02:34):
recognized
Dana Meller (02:35):
that's the part I'm most proud of, yeah.
Jonathan (02:37):
it's extraordinary.
And, you know, there's somephenomenal graphs on pre and
post test results about, um,people who have, higher pass
rates because they've gonethrough it.
So what inspired you to startPass the Big ABA exam?
Dana Meller (02:52):
You know, it's so crazy.
It wasn't some lifelong dream oranything like that.
It was quite random, actually.
my fellow co founder PriyaRanian, Um, we were friends.
before that, she was myprofessor for the ABA
coursework, and after that, weworked together for an agency,
and, she was the clinicaldirector at the time.
And, we were having lunch oneday, and as many, frontline
(03:14):
BCBAs will attest to, we carryour computers with us everywhere
we go.
So, we were having lunch betweenclients or something like that,
and Just talking about the fieldand talking about friends of
ours who we knew were strugglingwith the exam.
And, Priya also, has a licensein marriage and family therapy.
So she had this idea of creatinga prep course in ABA that
mimicked something that she hadgone through in, her prep for
(03:37):
her licensure exams.
And, and we were just sittingthere and I just like took out
my computer and I said, let's doit.
We can do this.
And do you remember that websiteVistaprint or, um, that,
Jonathan (03:47):
I do where you can make your own business cards.
Dana Meller (03:49):
I made our own business cards.
You can also, I don't know ifyou know this, make your own
websites.
Now if you know me, even for asecond, you will know that me
saying the words, I built awebsite, is hilarious and nobody
would believe it.
Um, but I did.
I built a website and we werelike, let's pick a date.
At that time it was easybecause, the exam was only
offered four times a year.
So that meant we could reallysort of schedule something based
(04:12):
on, well, there's an exam inMay, so let's do, a six or five
week workshop at the time,leading up to that date, we set
the date and then proceeded tospend every free moment we had,
creating content and coming upwith a plan for what to do.
And that first cohort, I thinkwe have 25 people signed up and
we had made it, uh, we did threelocations.
(04:33):
we used, the Bisla, uh,conference room for the West
side of a Los Angeles.
we rented a classroom atNational University in Northern
Los Angeles.
And then another conferencespace of a agency in Southern
California in Orange County.
And that was it.
We just put it online and Idon't even.
We didn't have, you know, SEO.
We didn't know anything about,advertising or marketing.
(04:55):
It, we just built this thing andall of a sudden the minute it
launched, we had our first emailvery shortly after my home phone
number was the number.
I, would have to answer thephone, Hello, thanks for
calling.
I have to answer that way foranybody who called, because it's
not like I could discriminate.
Um, yeah, and that was it.
And then we sort of built itweek by week and that sort of
(05:16):
set the foundation for what itis now.
But definitely it has evolved,um, substantially.
Thank God.
Jonathan (05:25):
I mean, this is very common in, in virtually or this
type of organization thatsupports, applicant certificates
to achieve, an exam results.
this exists across healthcare,across any
Dana Meller (05:36):
Yeah.
Jonathan (05:36):
of discipline, right?
And so can you just like, maybeany highlights on like metrics
that you look at aroundimprovement and pass rates from,
soon to be BCBAs going throughthe Pass the Big Big Exam.
Dana Meller (05:47):
I wish I could give you valid information on the
matter, but here's the thing.
one year, we did like reallyspend a lot of time gathering
pass rates specifically for ourprogram.
and, we were very happy with theoutcome, but it was such an
arduous process.
And the reason it was so hard isthat if you send a survey, you
Guess who responds?
People who passed.
(06:07):
and so we have like a 100percent pass rate when a very
non random sample, right?
So there was that piece.
The other thing is that ourprogram is really interactive.
So unlike the BDS modules, um,you know, who's a friend, we are
collaborators and...
Steve Eversole is even a mentorto me in some ways, um, but you
(06:27):
look at their program.
What's really wonderful is thatit's really measurable.
You can really measure thebehavior of the participant.
Whereas ours is more like auniversity class.
you show up, you, you have to doa lot of this stuff on your own.
And then when you come to class,the more work you did on your
own, the more helpful we'regoing to be in helping you
dissect and learn how to applywhat you've learned.
So it's a really, difficultthing to measure.
(06:50):
Our personal success rates untilwe discovered that we can
actually see improvement fromthe pre to post test in our
class and so obviously nobodycomes in with well Hopefully
nobody comes in with a zero butpeople's pre test scores are
very low.
I would say our pre test andpost test are quite difficult,
you know on purpose because wewant to be conservative but we
identified that the majority ofour students, you know without a
(07:14):
few outliers really do grow to apassable Post test score.
so that for us is, something wecan, reliably claim and own.
Everything else I kind of, I'mafraid because I feel like the
pickle jar theory, right?
Like if you're the fourth personto try it, uh, it's going to
open and you're going to takecredit for it.
(07:35):
Right.
So I don't want to do that.
it's not so ego driven for me.
I feel like, you know, if peoplepass, if they keep coming back,
which they do, that meansthere's good word of mouth.
It means that wherever we are intheir journey, whether it
results in an immediate pass orjust an improvement to their
knowledge in general, which Ithink we can attest there's some
(07:56):
lacking things there.
Um, then I, I feel successful.
I think when people Stop showingup.
It means the word of mouth, youknow, doesn't improve.
I mean, to be honest, thecompany grew 500 percent in its
first two years without anyadvertising.
I mean, this is 12 years ago,almost.
This is before social media.
social media existed, but nobodywas using it to promote their
(08:17):
businesses in ABA.
we were very late to, modernmarketing, tactics.
And it was all word of mouth andit continues to be word of
mouth.
And even now, that I have actualpeople who specialize in,
analytics and marketinganalytics, the most of our
traffic is people going directlyto the site.
It's not getting there throughother means.
(08:38):
So that to me says, you know,word of mouth, but your question
was not that, was it?
It was about pass rates.
Was it about our pass rates orabout the exam in general?
Jonathan (08:46):
well, I think it's a great example of this
extraordinary need we're seeingthat you grew 500 percent in the
first two years alone and, andlike with no marketing and, um,
but I was asking about the preand post test pass rates.
If I remember correctly, thegraph, like the graphs are
pretty phenomenal.
Dana Meller (09:00):
Yeah, we get people close to 80% on their post-test
and, you know, the exam is a76%, approximate, to pass.
So, yeah, I mean, I think so,you know, I'm not looking to
provide any shortcuts foranybody, and I would rather
people that shouldn't passdidn't pass.
not because I wish anybody illand, or I don't wanna see their
careers elevate.
But, having come from, as you,as you shared, an acting
(09:23):
background, I'm incredibly proudof having, um, You know, become
a scientist, becoming anacademic person, that that's
something that I just neverreally envisioned for myself.
I just sort of saw myself as, agirl who goes to auditions and
sits on the subway learninglines and that I have this other
life and this other person thatdidn't come easy to me.
it's not like I just like cameout of the womb doing science
(09:44):
and being all smart, I had todevelop that for myself.
So.
I want everybody to have thatjourney, and I really respect
our science, and I respectacademia, and knowing things,
and earning things, and I don'twant people to think of ABA as
something less than the law, youknow, passing the bar, or
passing any level of medicalboards.
I want people to see us in thatway, so I like the competitive
(10:07):
edge of the lower pass rate forthe exam.
I don't think that will everchange, by the way.
I mean, if you look across alldisciplines, that's That's what
it is, you know, that's how theykeep it, fair, competitive.
Jonathan (10:20):
Well, Dana, I want to share.
I got to confess.
This has been a huge pebble inmy shoe and I can't figure it
out.
So you need to help me get thisright.
But I'm going to share some dataactually published by the BACB
and this is I think from 2021and these are passing rates of
the BCBA exam by master'sprogram, right?
(10:40):
And it's actually force rankedin it.
I'm going to put a link in theshow notes, but let me just
review some of this data.
So of the top 15 master'sprograms, three of those
programs, graduate students whopass.
in the 30 percent range, theyget 30 percent passing.
Two of the top 15 by volume arein the 40 percent range as they
(11:04):
pass at first time exam taking,uh, 40 percent of them pass.
Four of them are in the 50percent pass range.
Three are in the 60%.
Two are in the 70 percent andonly one is in the 80 percent
pass range and none are in the90%.
So if I were to assign lettergrades, against these.
More than half of these programsliterally get a failing grade.
(11:25):
One gets a B and the rest getsC's and D's.
So I don't know.
Here's the cynical side of me,Dana.
This is where I need help.
Here's my question.
Like it appears at universities,these master's programs are
happily taking students tuitionwhile providing an
extraordinarily inferiorproduct.
What the hell's going on?
Dana Meller (11:44):
I think about this a lot, obviously, because when
that pass rate came out, um, andthat, that was several years
back that they started toactually publish that data.
it definitely was shocking, butit didn't surprise me because I
was meeting the students and Iwas seeing major gaps in
people's knowledge.
And in the other pieces, peoplewere claiming to be getting
(12:04):
straight A's.
They were surprised that theyweren't passing the test because
the feedback they were receivingfrom the schools is that, you
know, they're successful andthey know their stuff.
Um, uh, even if they're gettingB's, even if they're getting
C's, they should be passingcause the pass rate is 76%.
So that's, you know, that's a Cplus.
but here's where my problem withthis data is.
(12:24):
Um.
This is a group design.
When you have group designs, youhave outliers.
So I don't think it's completelyfair that, you know, the
university gets blamedexclusively.
Um, but...
It's certainly somewhat like forme, it's not something that I
would measure with these passrates because again, We don't
know how many outliers.
It is so much about the studentbehavior, just like any grad
(12:47):
school.
Grad school is independent.
they're not following youaround.
They're not forcing you to dothings And if they're not
inciting buy in from thestudents to want to learn more
or engaging them in such a waythat they become behavior
analytic thinkers, then I guess,you know, that would be
problematic for me.
But I would expect this kind ofvariability and certainly with
(13:07):
bigger numbers, there's Going tobe more variability.
So that part, makes sense to me.
What I don't understand issomething less measurable and
just more, I'm sorry to bementalistic, but it's more just
the gut feeling that I have.
between programs, what I sensemore is that, what's not being,
facilitated is that, the ideathat behaviorism is, it's, it's
science, obviously, but it's away of life.
(13:29):
It's, it's philosophical.
It's who you are.
You're either behaviorallyminded or you're not.
You either look at the worldbehavior analytically or you
don't.
And so if you're going to have amaster's in behavior analysis,
then.
You should be that thing ifthat's what you're planning to
continue on.
So like, you know, when I wasstudying theater, I was an
(13:50):
actress.
I lived and breathed it.
It was everything that I was.
My friends who are in the legalprofession, they look at the
checks and balances of life, thefairness, the unfairness.
So I think if you're graduatingand you're not behavior analytic
in the way that you look at theworld, you're going to struggle.
You did not get the point.
so for me, it's why isn't thatbeing, why isn't that being
(14:12):
facilitated?
Why isn't that sort of buy inhappening?
And why are people able to get,you know, certain grades if just
philosophically this is not howthey view the world?
And that's just how I see it.
if you don't see behavioralanalysis as you walk out the
door in everything that you do,you're not going to be able to
generalize anything to anything.
And that's just part of it.
(14:33):
You're gonna get scenariosyou've never heard of on the
exam.
You can take all the prepcourse, you're not going to be
prepared for all thepossibilities.
Unless, unless you have anobjective view of how the
environment affects behavior inevery possible way.
And I hear that from my studentsall the time, I don't like
experimental design, and ethicsis so hard, and, you know, I
thought ethics would be easybecause I'm ethical.
(14:53):
and what's so funny about thatis those things are built into
every other section.
You, you don't get out easy.
You can't be great at section,you know, A and D, but not at
everything else.
It all impacts everything.
So it's a puzzle piece, and ifit doesn't all come together,
um, globally like that...
I don't see success.
So I don't know what the schoolscould do to change that, except
(15:15):
make sure that when they acceptstudents, they see behavior
analysts, you know, the, orfuture behavior analysts.
And I, I know that's kind ofabstract to look at it this way.
but to your other point.
It is a business, and of coursethey're going to take people's
money and, um, of course inthese programs they're small,
they don't have large enrollmentcompared to other departments in
(15:36):
most schools, so they are goingto take whoever they can get.
With, I'm sure, the hope thatthey can transform anybody, um,
and plus don't forget the highlevel of need.
So, it's like we ignore the needand really discriminate who we
accept and also who we hire.
Or, or do we just try to make itwork with who we have?
Jonathan (15:58):
Hmm.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think you pinpoint somethingreally critical if a university
is passing people with A's, B's,even to your point C's, um, then
they are doing them a disserviceif they can't ultimately then
pass the exam because here'swhat totally resonates with me.
I mean, think about like my, Icall it my rickety MBA, right?
I went to get a master's, but Ididn't have to test for
(16:18):
something.
I didn't have to take a barexam.
Did I gain more knowledge?
Yeah, I tend to think so.
Did I meet some great people?
Yes, absolutely.
Did I get to travel the world?
It was great.
It was awesome.
But that's right.
That's my rickety MBA.
Whereas a master's in ABA meansyou are able to achieve this
credential that gives you likelifelong job security, the
ability to help kids, adults,anyone else, all of these other
things.
(16:38):
It's like master's programs.
I would think the bar should beGetting their students to pass,
but instead of me, just likegriping about this, let's think
about like proactive solutions.
So one thing that's interestingis like accreditation of
university programs.
I know ABAI, um, has one APBArecently announced that it was
(16:59):
going to be developing auniversity program
accreditation, which I amthrilled about.
and I think the BACB hasindicated that by 2032, every
master's program is going tohave to be accredited.
Sort of like having an Americanpsychologist and APA accredited
program for, for psychologystudents and, and, and grad
programs.
Do you think accreditation isgoing to move the needle on, on
these metrics?
Dana Meller (17:18):
Well, it certainly should.
Um, I'll be honest with you.
I've recently been investigatingthis a little bit because it's
not something I really pay muchattention to because I deal with
what happens after they're inschool.
not that I shouldn't care aboutthat, but, um, so I was thinking
about, what are the pros andcons and, if you're following
any, APBA, um, thing, then youprobably would notice that,
(17:40):
there's some controversysurrounding it.
for me, I don't have a problemwith it.
I think it's great when oneorganization doesn't sort of
have ownership over an entire,um, an entire process.
So I think with APBA joiningthere, there's the potential for
more, diverse processes, there'sjust, you don't know, whatever
has been happening now isobviously not.
(18:01):
Perfect and effective.
You can't ignore the pass rates,and you certainly can't, um,
keep doing as most people aredoing.
Blame the BACB for absolutelyeverything that goes wrong in
our field.
That's, that's just not fair.
right down to people saying theymake the test too hard.
They don't want us to pass.
They want to take our money.
That's just a crazy, that's acrazy, you know, thing to say.
So, I think it will move theneedle.
(18:22):
Yeah, I think so.
I think having multipleprocesses and, you know,
different processes to meetdifferent types of needs, I
think is important.
Jonathan (18:31):
Um,
Dana Meller (18:32):
You know, I don't, I don't know if there's ever
anything wrong with peoplehaving choices.
Jonathan (18:41):
Absolutely.
So well, Dana, how's, how willpass the big exam, as test prep,
as an organization evolve, as wehopefully see pass rates
improving over time?
Dana Meller (18:51):
You know, look, if universities improve, right, it
will be interesting to see howthat affects what the exam does,
because if you look at mostprofessional exams, they
deliberately.
keep pass rates at a certainplace.
Like, they're not trying to haveeverybody pass.
So, that's why I was sayingearlier that I'm really less
concerned about the universitypass rates as I'm more concerned
(19:13):
about some of the people that Imeet in the process of prep
where I'm confused as to howthey did as well as they did in
graduate school.
So, not everybody should passjust because they have a
master's.
Um, but not everybody should gettheir master's.
If they are not ready to sit foran exam or not have the grades
that they have.
So I don't anticipate pass ratesare going to change.
(19:36):
And to be honest with you, I hada conversation years ago.
I went up to the BACB table.
Um, it was back when we weretesting monthly and it was in
May.
It was an ABAI, actually.
And I just said hello andintroduced myself and, you know,
admitted that I had I was partof past the big ABA exam.
Back then, I didn't know if itwas something that was welcomed
into the profession and And Isaid, how's the exam going?
(19:58):
You know I've got some studentsthat are sitting right now and
the person that I spoke to saidsame Just like you know Just
like always and it had beenafter a really low pass rate the
previous February and Iresponded with ah, man Oh, no.
And he goes, why?
That's what we want.
and it wasn't because he wasuncaring or unfeeling, but
(20:19):
because it seemed to be like astandard for professional exams.
Everybody can't pass.
Jonathan (20:24):
Oh, no, I totally get that.
Let's just pinpoint this forlisteners.
What I think I'll play it backfor you and gut check me on
this, but let's say everyone gotmore proficient at taking the
exam.
It just means the bar will moveup to still the same percentage
of people will pass, right?
76 percent will always pass,right?
It's just, it's a, it's a grade.
Uh, what do you call it?
Scaling grades, a
Dana Meller (20:45):
Yeah, the scaled scores will
Jonathan (20:47):
I get that.
My question, again, just comesback to why would a university
keep passing, giving A's to astudent, right?
Semester to semester, quarter toquarter, um, and telling them
you're doing great, but thenwhen they get to the ultimate
metric, which is passing theexam.
They're like these programs thatwhere 30 percent of first time
(21:10):
exam takers graduatesuccessfully from program, but
then don't pass the exam.
That's the one that really, Ijust haven't been able to get my
head around.
Dana Meller (21:18):
You know, I think that's unfortunate, but I think
in humanity, there are, a fewdifferent types of people and
there are people that, um, nomatter what's going on, have a
stake in the game and that couldbe your Starbucks barista
wanting you to have the best cupof coffee or the one that just
can't wait to clock out.
And so, you and I both have beenthrough a lot of schooling, so
we've had those professors that,that.
The word care doesn't do enoughjustice.
(21:39):
it's that they had aninvestment.
It was as if it was as importantto them as to you.
They were naturally orintrinsically motivated and
reinforced by the success oftheir students.
And that's true for all of us inevery business that we're in.
If your intrinsic motivation isthe success of your consumer or
whatever, then you are going toprovide better quality.
You are going to bettereducation better all of it.
(22:01):
So, there's probably acombination of, you know,
University programs, professors,whoever, is in charge that don't
have that sort of intrinsicmotivation.
It's a job for them.
They've got, you know, otherthings that they're doing that
are more important.
And it's just normal humanbehavior.
And then there are, of course,those people that are
intrinsically motivated by thesuccess of other people.
(22:22):
And then there's also thosepeople having to be
intrinsically motivated by theirown success.
And I think when those starsalign, you have these...
Uh, leadership, BCBAs who areimpressive and who are at
conferences and who we all wantto meet and you know, we all
know who they are and that'swhen the stars align and that's
true for doctors and there's baddoctors too, right?
(22:43):
There's doctors who've had totake their boards a bazillion
times.
Even my, you know, ex boyfriend,John F.
Kennedy Jr.
did not pass.
He's not really my ex boyfriend,but
Jonathan (22:52):
Well,
Dana Meller (22:53):
he's my biggest crush ever.
I'm, I'm sad he's gone.
Um, but, um, no, but he took thebar like a, an unreasonable
amount of times, if I rememberthat correctly.
So I think everything has to bejust right.
You've got to meet the rightpeople and you've got to be the
right person for, you know, thatcertificate to land.
But also for you to now takethat and generalize it to being
(23:15):
effective at whether or notyou're a professor, a clinician,
a prep course teacher, you know,whatever it is.
And that's probably true forwhat you do.
It's true for the administratorsat my company.
It's true for every secretary,every waiter, you know.
Jonathan (23:30):
well said Dana.
Let me throw a crazy idea outthere.
We haven't talked about thisahead of time, just to be clear
listeners, like, and you'regoing to re and you have to
react to it.
What if like, I love now thatthere is publicly available data
around these pass rates andcertain institutions that tend
to have higher pass rates on theexam than others.
What if.
As a field, ABA providers madethe choice.
(23:52):
Hey, if we provide any tuitionreimbursement or we have a field
work, like, you know,supervision residency type
program, we will only reimburseyou if you go to one of the.
Universities that has over a 70,80, 90 percent whatever pass
rate.
Would that change things?
What do you think?
Dana Meller (24:11):
Well, guess what?
No, because they're not going topay for the most expensive
school, for example.
I mean, some of these higherenrollment schools are the ones
that are online or hybrid oraffordable.
or they don't take up a lot ofyour time.
Most people are not going intotheir masters when they're 23
years old.
Most people are doing it as a,uh, not, I don't want to say
(24:33):
career transition, but theymight not have necessarily been
on that path, right, to end upbeing.
You know, being a managementlevel, uh, behaviorist.
So I don't see any company beinglike choose the highest pass
rate at the risk of it being themost expensive school.
Jonathan (24:47):
Yeah, I gotcha.
Dana Meller (24:49):
Um, but here's the other piece.
Does school, even the bestschool translate to.
Being awesome on the front linethat for me as a person who runs
an ABA company, that's what Iwould want to know more than
pass rates.
Like, is this person going toactually be good at their job?
(25:09):
Um, and of course the pass rateis also important because if
they don't have those letters, Ican't bill.
And there's all those otherthings, but I think we spend way
more money training people whoare already certified or
registered, right, than anythingelse.
Jonathan (25:23):
You know, that's such, that's such a beautiful point.
I mean, yes, it's, you have toget a certification in order to
be able to be hired and getreimbursed by Medicaid and
commercial insurance.
But more importantly, that isone of many different skills and
behavioral repertoires that haveto be developed to be as BCBA.
And we can't like just lose theforest right for the trees on
(25:44):
this.
Um, so, all right, Dana, yourhomework is going to be to find
out what that other metric wouldbe that would say that someone's
well prepared.
Dana Meller (25:53):
mean, there's just, there's so much, there's so many
components and, um, I don'tremember who I was talking to
about this, but it's almost likethere should be different tiers,
right?
Like different interests,because I would bet there's a
lot of people who don't do wellin school, who don't pass the
exam immediately.
I mean, I've heard people up tosix.
16 times, I think was thehighest number I'd ever heard.
(26:14):
I know, um, but what if they'relike really amazing clinicians?
the chances are slim that that'strue, but what if they are or
what if somebody was failing topass?
it's almost like there's a,there's a discrepancy between
the exam and what some people doday to day.
and I say that nervously becauseI, I do think the exam is
important and I do think thatyou need to have an academic
(26:35):
foundation, even if you throw itaway as soon as you would sort
of like, you know.
Is this an American hit theslopes?
I don't ski.
I don't even know if that's athing, but you know what I mean?
Like if you do anything, you'renot thinking about the
technique, right?
You're just doing the thing, butthe technique certainly keeps
you solid, keeps you less likelyto be injured, right?
(26:56):
Things like that.
So like as a singer, I have hada lot of vocal training.
I'm not thinking about thetheory behind producing sound.
When I'm up there, you know,singing a song.
so I do think it's important,but I don't know, tiers there's
so many problems with the wholesystem that are not anybody's
fault.
I mean, it's like intentionsversus, the impact, somebody
(27:20):
else said that to me recently,which I just loved.
I don't know.
I don't think this is an easysolve.
We could, we can do this weeklyand see if we come up with,
Jonathan (27:28):
You're right.
And you know what?
Here's the reality is that ourfield is still in the first
couple few innings of this ballgame of triumph of maturing.
Right?
And so, I think this comes to, aquestion I wanted to ask you
that I'm really excited to hearthat the Pass the Big ABA exam
does, but you have a providerpartnership program.
Is that right?
Like, I'd love to hear moreabout that.
(27:48):
And for listeners who are like,Ooh, how do I figure out, you
know, how do I get my, you know,residency folks involved, what
can you do there?
Dana Meller (27:55):
I really love it.
I am, I'm most excited about it.
So, the partnership, there's noterms, nobody has to pay for a
partnership, it's an informalhandshake with a few formal
processes, but basically itstarted because, as a clinician,
as a leader at an ABA agency,um, my staff passing is
something that's important forme and I liked the idea that
(28:16):
somebody could potentially takethat on for me.
So, yes, we're your partner.
Give this to your staff andwe'll take care of the rest.
And basically what we promiseand, um, my team calls it a
turnkey process, which I neverheard that used outside of real
estate.
but basically the idea is thatif you partner with us, we'll
obviously provide discounts foryour team.
Um, you know, there's no likeyou have to give us a minimum
(28:36):
number of students.
It's nothing like that.
It's just let us take that onbecause we know that the
clinical leadership in mostagencies has way bigger fish to
fry day to day than making suretheir staff get to the right
place for the right exam prep.
And so a lot of, theorganizations that we've
partnered with range fromreally, really large companies
that, you know, sort of spreadthe word across all their
different regions to justsmaller mom pop local agencies
(28:58):
who have, maybe one candidateevery couple of years.
and they send them to us and we,by virtue of the partnership, we
hold their hand a little bitthrough that process.
Um, for the agencies that payfor their staff, we reward them,
um, obviously because we thinkthat's amazing and not everybody
can do that.
But we share the metrics ifthey're interested to see if
their staff are participating,showing up.
(29:20):
We also, I will spend extra timeif it's needed, although I'll be
honest, I'll do that foranybody.
I mean, if you were like Dana,there's this person I know and
they're having a hard timepassing.
Can you hop on a call?
A hundred percent.
Is it something I'm reallypassionate about?
And I just like talking aboutit.
And I like to be served aproblem.
Um, like somebody telling me, Ican't pass in sort of
operationalizing what that isand figuring out for them.
(29:42):
when I can, what it's going totake.
And it's very rarely as mysuggestion, go buy prep
materials, because that's reallynot the answer as much as I want
to say that, you know, takingour workshop is helpful, it is,
and there's accountability andthere's community, and there's a
lot of elements that are helpfulat the end of the day, people do
pass without that stuff.
(30:02):
Um, and you know, I personally.
Probably couldn't because Ididn't have the discipline and
so I built a program that Ithought I would need.
but at the end of the day, itstill doesn't change that the
person has to do the work and Ilove to figure out how they need
to sort of shift their studymethods for themselves because
it's individualized.
I don't think there's one answerfor everybody.
(30:24):
Um, But the partnership, soit's, we're starting to partner
with universities, which I thinkis also a, um, response to the
pass rate published, beingpublished.
I think they're motivated now,just even from a business
standpoint.
Um, but agencies, a couple ofschools that, um, that have, you
know, clinical teams, definitelypartner with organizations like
LABA and BABA and WEBA, um, andmake sure that student members,
(30:48):
um, I like to promote.
Not to make this another longstory.
I'm so sorry.
but, you know what I love?
I love when we're going toagencies or universities.
Promote going to conferences andpromote that community piece
because I think if you don'thave that and you're just on
your own little island doing ABAday to day, you really miss out
on some of the, the fun, themore social stuff that I think
(31:11):
will offset burnout because ifyou experience community twice a
year at a conference or evenonce a year.
It does give you an extra boost.
And just to hear that there'speople out there going through
what you're going through andjust all that kind of stuff.
So one of the reasons we startedto reach out to, um, conferences
was that we really wanted tofacilitate helping them grow
their student membership becauseit aligned with our value of
(31:34):
helping students organicallycontact ABA.
content in a community setting.
our first organization that wepartnered with was Weba.
because again, women in behavioranalysis, we're a women owned
business.
And then after June, 2020, Ireally.
Identified being part of thesystemic problem by not seeing
my own privilege in my life andthinking, well, I'm not these
(31:56):
things.
They're not talking about meafter the whole, George Floyd,
thing.
And I was really bummed that wewere still.
Having that conversation andthat nothing had changed and,
you know, I'm not a young lady,so I've been around for several,
moments in history like that.
And so, um, that's when Ireached out to, BABA and also
LABA at that time, which isBlack Applied Behavior Analysts
or Latino Applied BehaviorAnalysis.
(32:19):
and I just wanted to say, howcan we...
We can help on the educationend.
what can we do to make yourorganization, reach students and
promote education to someunderrepresented communities?
and then we started to partnerwith those organizations.
So I'm starting to do more, uh,prep, uh, events at conferences,
which that's pretty new.
Calaba.
I just did one.
(32:40):
Um, and that was amazing.
It was a three hour workshop andthat there were as many students
that showed up as they did withvery little advertising, We'll
do better next year if they wantme back.
Um, I do one annually at theBaba conference.
Um, and now I'm actuallysubmitting it to other
conferences.
I just didn't think anybodywanted it until we had.
I think we had probably one ofthe highest attendance for any
(33:02):
symposium at the BABAconference.
And BABA, I believe, had like 40percent student attendance of
their entire attendance.
Which, that was really inspiringto me because that's what it's
about.
Jonathan (33:13):
that's beautiful.
I mean, I love, I love howyou're thinking about this from
an equity perspective, right?
That feels super important andthat you proactively reached
out.
I am such a huge fan of.
I'm not going to say test prep,but like with most things we do
in life, if we want to perfectour craft, we have to engage in
it and practice itintentionally.
(33:33):
Right.
I don't care what your craft is.
In fact, going back, I'm showingmy age, but I remember for the
SATs Dana, I had literally 25VHS tapes of like words.
And I think there was some,there's math stuff in there too.
And I was watching these, thesetest tapes and it was by myself,
but it was awesome.
But this idea of Practice withintention and recognize that it
(33:54):
doesn't matter what station youare at life.
You can always get better atsomething that feels really
important, especially when youwrap it around a community.
Um, I think missing out oncommunity is missing out on
being able to fully engage inwhatever your craft is that
feels super important.
Dana Meller (34:10):
Yeah.
And then also people are, Imean, not the SAT, you're still
in high school, so it's a littleless, but these are
professionals and theirfamilies.
And, and, you know, like I said,we're not putting it in their
brain.
We're making it easier toaccess.
We're organizing it.
And it's like having a pocketBCB explained to you.
So you have to do a little lesssearching.
But you still have to understandit.
You still have to memorize itand you still have to build
those application skills.
(34:30):
It's just a little less scarywhen it's being somewhat spoon
fed, you know?
and I think that's fair.
taking a prep course does notmake you less than.
Passing that test is, everyone'son an even playing field.
So I agree with you and I didall the SAT prep.
I did it for the GRE, um, youknow, and I liked it.
It kept me on course.
(34:51):
I knew I had a goal.
I'm trying to get a certainscore on these tests and you
know, why not?
it's not something everybodyneeds, but it's nothing wrong
with needing it.
Jonathan (35:01):
Yes, absolutely.
Malcolm Gladwell has that.
what book does he write whereit's like 10, 000 hours is what
leads to then like, like masteryof your craft that he cited the
Beatles, like playing in, inHamburg and in Germany for like
for a year.
And that's where they cut theirteeth and got their 10, 000
hours into feedback from thecrowd.
I don't know.
I, I don't know if that'sevidence
Dana Meller (35:21):
Only 10, 000 hours?
Jonathan (35:24):
Only 10, 000 hours.
well, look, I mean, I'mexhausted just like talking
through all the work you've doneto pass a big ABA exam.
But, but Dana, hold on a second.
You're also the CEO and founderof Behavioral Intervention
Specialists of Los Angeles.
So, whoo!
Dana Meller (35:39):
the founder.
Not the founder, um, but CEO.
Yeah,
Jonathan (35:43):
But CEO, okay, I got you, but so you're wearing a
couple different hats, right?
And I love, by the way, that youwere like still engaged, right?
In, in the practice of behavioranalysis.
So, so tell me about yourjourney as a services provider
and CEO, what's been the mostrewarding part of that journey?
And also, what do you know nowthat you wish you knew when you
started it?
Or when, uh, when you startedyears ago?
Dana Meller (36:04):
I don't know as far as being a CEO, what I enjoy is
obviously collaborating, um,with other clinicians and seeing
those outcomes.
I would, I'd have to kind ofredefine c e o in my role here
'cause it's not like I walkaround looking at how much money
we're making.
I'm really more of a clinicallybased c e o and I'm responsible
for the organizational trainingand just kind of making sure
(36:24):
everything runs smoothly.
I would say in the last fouryears, I've kind of stepped back
from any frontline clinicalstuff, from even going to a
home.
Um, but I.
I enjoy getting people motivatedand excited.
And like we talked about at thebeginning of this chat, helping
them build their own sort ofintrinsic motivation, like
having them buy into theoutcomes for the clients and
(36:44):
keeping that, maintaining that,because you do get tired.
It's like we were talking aboutwhen we first started in the
field, you come home every daycrying because you see sad
things.
And then eventually you don'teven realize it anymore.
It just becomes like nothing.
You become immune to some of thedifficulties.
And what I would love to helpstudents and staff maintain is
how it felt that first day whenyou thought, my God, this is so
(37:07):
important before we became sortof desensitized to how people's,
it's not just another kid thatyou've, it's not your 10, 000th
kid or parent or whatever, thatthis is that parent's first
encounter with this.
This is this kid's.
lifelong struggle and it hasnothing to do with how many
struggles I have alreadywitnessed.
Um, and you know, checking myprivilege.
(37:28):
not even just, ethnic racialprivilege, but privilege of not
having to deal with some of thedifficulties that the families
deal with.
Um, so just, you know, remindingmyself, you know, why, why we do
what we do and.
Keeping that fresh despite beingin the business for 20 years.
As far as what I wish I'd known,not so much with the clinical
stuff because I think I knewfrom day one that was going to
(37:49):
be hard and you know, that wasjust hard, period.
With PTB, I'm glad I knewnothing because I never would
have done any of it.
Ignorance is bliss.
if I knew half of thedifficulties we would have
encountered or roadblocks...
I would have been terrified.
And so I think being ignorantgives you bravery.
It's not always the best way togo, but if people say, what
(38:10):
should I do?
I want to start a business.
And they're doing a lot ofresearch and just like really
planning and taking years.
I, I almost want to say to them.
Just start it.
Just do it.
Who cares?
But that's not, um, responsible.
So I try not to say that.
We just got lucky that thereweren't any fires, but there
were cease and desist letters.
There, there was stuff, youknow, we learned the hard way
(38:31):
with impact rather than goodintentions, you know?
Uh, yeah.
Jonathan (38:36):
Being ignorant gives you bravery.
That is so, so freaking true.
And any entrepreneur who wouldtell you, Oh yeah, it's all
roses and everything's good.
Run away from that personbecause they haven't truly
experienced entrepreneurship andthe highs and the lows, right?
That come with that.
Dana Meller (38:50):
Entrepreneurship is, you know, it sounds good and
it's sexy right now because it'slike this new thing.
There's like actually degrees init, but I think it's something
you're born with.
I mean, since I was a kid, Icame from the former Soviet
union.
My parents brought back some ofthose like wooden matryoshka
dolls and little painted eggs.
And if I wanted a Barbie withouteven asking, I would sit outside
my apartment building and sellthings to, you know, people
(39:12):
walking by.
And you know, I, I was cute.
So people bought stuff from meand I'd be like, mom, I got my
9.
I'd like you to take.
It wasn't Target, but whereverit was, they sold Barbies at the
time.
Uh, you know, so I, I think Iwas always spirited that way,
but, it's not an easy life.
It's exciting, but it's, and youknow, it's, it's hard.
(39:32):
your to do list never ends andyou don't clock out.
So when I'm laying in bed atnight, I'm thinking about my
responsibility to a lot ofpeople, um, that have jobs
because of me, you know,benefits because of me,
insurance because of me,whatever it is they have because
of me.
Um, but then that's also whatsort of drives me, like what can
I do to do better?
And it, it's creative.
Jonathan (39:54):
It's so, it's so, so true.
I think there's, as anentrepreneur, there's this level
of like, you know, um,acceptability of.
Risk, because there's a lot ofrisk that comes with it.
And there has to be thiscomponent of how good are you at
bouncing back from all themistakes that we know as
entrepreneurs, we're going tomake learning from those and
just not repeating mistakes.
That feels important.
Dana Meller (40:15):
You can't be too practical.
You can't be too organized ortoo practical.
You just kind of dive, you know,which is weird.
I'm normally, I'm afraid offlying.
I'm afraid of like everything,but for some reason I'll just up
and start a business,
Jonathan (40:30):
Oh, I love it.
Well, Dana, what's one thingevery ABA business owner should
start doing and one thing tostop doing.
Dana Meller (40:37):
Incentives and motivation.
I mean, that's the thing theyshould, if they're not doing it,
uh, they should do it.
And if they.
are doing it, they should domore of it.
looking at training in adifferent way.
Um, this is actually new for me.
After this many years right now,I'm restructuring the training
program for the company forBITSLA and, um, I'm really
(40:59):
realizing like we've been doingit all wrong because it's not
something people can sustain.
my theme is recurring buy in,getting people's buy in to the
science.
Not, not treating it like clockin, clock out.
And I would say the same thingto the manager at Starbucks.
I would say, get your peopleexcited about me having the best
(41:20):
cup of coffee I ever had.
And if you can get that, thatintrinsic motivation piece, it
changes everything.
And most people don't have it.
Most people work because theyhave to.
And they start off saying, Iwant to help kids, and I want to
study psychology, and that's howmost people end up here.
But then it's hard, and you'regetting bitten, and yesterday
one of my...
Supervisors had toilet waterthrown at her and those kinds of
(41:41):
things are happening on thedaily.
You're getting hurt.
You're getting abused.
You're not getting a lot ofthank yous.
and if you haven't bought in,those are deal breakers as far
as I'm concerned.
Like, you know, I don't just letpeople throw toilet water on me
or my staff, but I've bought in.
And so that would be the thingto start doing.
Stop doing not looking at staffbehavior functionally.
(42:04):
And we all do it.
I do this at my own home, whenmy partner, when he doesn't put
things away, I just think, Oh,he's doing bad things.
But, but what's functionallygoing on is his back hurt that
day.
And so it was harder for him tolike empty the dishwasher.
And I think looking at thefunctional reason for behavior
is, um, something nobody does.
it's human to just somebody doessomething you don't like they're
bad versus looking at, it, Iguess, compassionately, which is
(42:27):
also a big buzzword right now,an important word.
But yeah, looking at staffbehavior, and having
contingencies, for good behaviorand supportive ones for the
behaviors that you don't want tosee versus, you know, writing
people up.
What does that even do?
Um, but also, ABA agencies arein a very bad predicament right
now, which is staffing is sohard and so few people in any
(42:49):
industry want to work outsidethe home.
Same.
I get it.
that, there aren't, consequencesfor, inappropriate behaviors or
not professional behaviors orhowever you want to define it.
Um, because we don't want tolose the person.
We need them to keep coming towork.
And even though they're 30minutes late every single day,
but they're so good when they'rewith the kid, those kinds of
things.
And then, and more importantly,the positive consequences, the
Jonathan (43:12):
Hmm,
Dana Meller (43:13):
It has to be something because people aren't
getting paid that much.
They, these insurance rates makeit hard and you can go work at
Starbucks, get better benefits,have less pressure, not get
wounded, um, or drive an Uber orso many other things.
So motivation, incentives,facilitating buy in and, um,
(43:34):
well, that's it.
Jonathan (43:34):
I love that I stopped not looking at sta behavior
functionally, I'm a economicsundergrad and behavioral
economics, that's called the,like the fundamental attribution
error say, oh, they're lazy, butlike, look, we know it.
What is lazy, right?
No, we are a product of ourenvironment And so whether it's
a hurt back, whatever, it's,it's just so well said.
Dana um, Tell me where peoplecan find you online.
Dana Meller (43:56):
Well, obviously, um, they can find me through
past the big ABA exam, but.
I am also my own person, and soyou can find me on Instagram,
just my name Dana Meller.
Um, you can find me on LinkedIn,Dana Meller, and on Facebook,
Dana Meller.
Um, and I, I want followers.
I want to be one of those coolpeople with thousands of
followers.
(44:16):
I don't know what for, it's notlike I'm, uh, I thought my
presence is so exciting, I'mworking on it, but, um, but I
want them, follow me.
Jonathan (44:24):
That's awesome.
I'm going to drop all these inthe show notes and listeners.
So you're aware Dana first nameis spelled DANA look her up, um,
and follow her.
I love that you're settinggoals, um, some shaping goals
towards your number offollowers.
Dana Meller (44:38):
Yep.
Jonathan (44:39):
Um, well, uh, are you ready for the hot take
questions?
Dana
Dana Meller (44:42):
I guess so.
Jonathan (44:45):
here we go.
You're on your deathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Dana Meller (44:49):
Uh, being a good friend.
Jonathan (44:52):
What's your most important self care practice?
Dana Meller (44:55):
I don't do it enough, but, um, reading
fiction.
Dumb fiction.
Like, superficial, you know,girl meets boy.
Jonathan (45:06):
I love it.
I love fiction as well.
Um, all right.
I normally ask favorite song andor music genre, but given your
background as a singer, do youhave like those singers that you
just absolutely idolize?
Dana Meller (45:19):
I do they're probably not people that anyone
knows.
Like, if you're not a musicaltheater person, but the genre I
love the most is singer,songwriters and, and, and female
ones.
Um, but I also love, I'm theworst with music, but like,
people like James Morrison, um,I like Sarah Bares.
I like Adele.
I like that kind of.
but in musical theater, myfavorite voices, um, there's a
(45:40):
performer called Jesse Muellerwho I'm obsessed with, a
Broadway star.
Um, Shoshana Bean, that'sanother Broadway star.
Uh, I mean, there's so many.
It's not interesting.
And I don't have a favoritesong.
I don't.
It's the strangest thing, but I,I literally do not.
I just, uh, I need more music inmy life, believe it or not.
Cause I sort ofcompartmentalized, you know, and
(46:02):
when I'm doing music, I'm doingmusic when I'm doing behavior
analysis, I've got to amalgamatethe two.
Cause I think there's somethingthere.
Jonathan (46:08):
Oh, I like that.
I like that challenge toyourself.
Yes.
Go get after that.
Dana Meller (46:12):
I've got so many goals.
Thanks to you.
Jonathan (46:15):
But Dana, what's one thing you'd tell your 18 year
old self?
Dana Meller (46:19):
I would tell myself not to settle for less.
Um, because I would say in mylife, I have settled for less
and for since being 18, um,because I didn't necessarily
think that I could.
Get or do better from eitherfrom people, from myself, um, in
general.
Now I don't, because I believethat more is possible in any, in
(46:41):
any capacity.
Jonathan (46:43):
All right.
And you can only wear one styleof footwear.
What would it be?
Dana Meller (46:47):
Well, I was going to say just sneakers, but that
wouldn't be completely honest.
I'm going to have to own up tosome of my bougie ness.
Uh, designer sneakers.
I mean, I have a few brands thatI like, but I'm not going to do
that because it's tooembarrassing.
It's too superficial.
And I've already owned up to toomany superficial things like
wanting followers.
I want to be an influencer.
Jonathan (47:08):
I love it.
An ABA influencer, sneakerinfluencer, I don't know, singer
songwriter, influencer, likegroup them all in together.
Dana Meller (47:14):
just influencing, just walking around town
influencing.
Jonathan (47:19):
Well, Dana, thank you so much for coming on the pod.
It was so much fun to talk toyou.
Dana Meller (47:24):
Thank you.
You too.
My guest today is Dana Meller.
Dana is the co founder of Passthe Big ABA exam and CEO of
Behavioral InterventionSpecialists of Los Angeles, a
BCBA and former Broadwayperformer.
Dana is an industry thoughtleader, an advocate for
underrepresented communities inABA, a frequent speaker on
topics ranging fromentrepreneurship,
professionalism, diversity, andinclusion, and a mentor to
(00:50):
countless students who havesucceeded in passing the Big ABA
exam.
She's a graduate of New YorkUniversity, and she currently
serves on the boards of BlackApplied Behavior Analysis.
and Latino Association forBehavior Analysis.
Dana, welcome to the pod.
Dana Meller (01:05):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Jonathan (01:08):
I am thrilled to have you and I've got to say I
recently saw I think it was avideo of you on LinkedIn that
you posted about May the 4th bewith you and like full no shame
disclosure.
Like I'm a huge Star Wars fan.
I don't know if you are but yourpost was you were dressed up as
princess Leia and you were, um,uh, it was on response blocking
(01:29):
and extinction.
Can you reenact that for me orlike, tell me more about this.
Dana Meller (01:33):
Well, I have to be honest with you.
I'm not a Star Wars fan, and Iknow that, I lose nerd points
with that, right?
if I'm honest, the, team at PTBthought that would be hilarious,
so I just got a picture from theinternet.
And, did the most famous one,obviously with the two side buns
and she's holding what lookslike a gun of sorts.
Obviously I don't have a rifleor a gun at my house.
(01:56):
So I just got the Thera Gun, youknow, the massaging thing.
and I just did my regular weeklyYouTube video.
I mean, the content was alreadyplanned.
The buns were um, that was anadded thing.
Nothing to really react.
I wish I could fulfill your StarWars fantasies right now, but
I'm not that girl.
Jonathan (02:14):
Oh my God, that would be a whole new level for this
pod Dana reenacting Star Warsfantasies.
I don't know that we need to gothere, but we might have to
record a separate session aroundthat.
Let's talk about, like, you're aco founder of Pass the Big ABA
exam.
And so, for listeners who don'tknow, I mean, go look this up.
This is, you are a nationallyrecognized, Internationally
(02:34):
recognized
Dana Meller (02:35):
that's the part I'm most proud of, yeah.
Jonathan (02:37):
it's extraordinary.
And, you know, there's somephenomenal graphs on pre and
post test results about, um,people who have, higher pass
rates because they've gonethrough it.
So what inspired you to startPass the Big ABA exam?
Dana Meller (02:52):
You know, it's so crazy.
It wasn't some lifelong dream oranything like that.
It was quite random, actually.
my fellow co founder PriyaRanian, Um, we were friends.
before that, she was myprofessor for the ABA
coursework, and after that, weworked together for an agency,
and, she was the clinicaldirector at the time.
And, we were having lunch oneday, and as many, frontline
(03:14):
BCBAs will attest to, we carryour computers with us everywhere
we go.
So, we were having lunch betweenclients or something like that,
and Just talking about the fieldand talking about friends of
ours who we knew were strugglingwith the exam.
And, Priya also, has a licensein marriage and family therapy.
So she had this idea of creatinga prep course in ABA that
mimicked something that she hadgone through in, her prep for
(03:37):
her licensure exams.
And, and we were just sittingthere and I just like took out
my computer and I said, let's doit.
We can do this.
And do you remember that websiteVistaprint or, um, that,
Jonathan (03:47):
I do where you can make your own business cards.
Dana Meller (03:49):
I made our own business cards.
You can also, I don't know ifyou know this, make your own
websites.
Now if you know me, even for asecond, you will know that me
saying the words, I built awebsite, is hilarious and nobody
would believe it.
Um, but I did.
I built a website and we werelike, let's pick a date.
At that time it was easybecause, the exam was only
offered four times a year.
So that meant we could reallysort of schedule something based
(04:12):
on, well, there's an exam inMay, so let's do, a six or five
week workshop at the time,leading up to that date, we set
the date and then proceeded tospend every free moment we had,
creating content and coming upwith a plan for what to do.
And that first cohort, I thinkwe have 25 people signed up and
we had made it, uh, we did threelocations.
(04:33):
we used, the Bisla, uh,conference room for the West
side of a Los Angeles.
we rented a classroom atNational University in Northern
Los Angeles.
And then another conferencespace of a agency in Southern
California in Orange County.
And that was it.
We just put it online and Idon't even.
We didn't have, you know, SEO.
We didn't know anything about,advertising or marketing.
(04:55):
It, we just built this thing andall of a sudden the minute it
launched, we had our first emailvery shortly after my home phone
number was the number.
I, would have to answer thephone, Hello, thanks for
calling.
I have to answer that way foranybody who called, because it's
not like I could discriminate.
Um, yeah, and that was it.
And then we sort of built itweek by week and that sort of
(05:16):
set the foundation for what itis now.
But definitely it has evolved,um, substantially.
Thank God.
Jonathan (05:25):
I mean, this is very common in, in virtually or this
type of organization thatsupports, applicant certificates
to achieve, an exam results.
this exists across healthcare,across any
Dana Meller (05:36):
Yeah.
Jonathan (05:36):
of discipline, right?
And so can you just like, maybeany highlights on like metrics
that you look at aroundimprovement and pass rates from,
soon to be BCBAs going throughthe Pass the Big Big Exam.
Dana Meller (05:47):
I wish I could give you valid information on the
matter, but here's the thing.
one year, we did like reallyspend a lot of time gathering
pass rates specifically for ourprogram.
and, we were very happy with theoutcome, but it was such an
arduous process.
And the reason it was so hard isthat if you send a survey, you
Guess who responds?
People who passed.
(06:07):
and so we have like a 100percent pass rate when a very
non random sample, right?
So there was that piece.
The other thing is that ourprogram is really interactive.
So unlike the BDS modules, um,you know, who's a friend, we are
collaborators and...
Steve Eversole is even a mentorto me in some ways, um, but you
(06:27):
look at their program.
What's really wonderful is thatit's really measurable.
You can really measure thebehavior of the participant.
Whereas ours is more like auniversity class.
you show up, you, you have to doa lot of this stuff on your own.
And then when you come to class,the more work you did on your
own, the more helpful we'regoing to be in helping you
dissect and learn how to applywhat you've learned.
So it's a really, difficultthing to measure.
(06:50):
Our personal success rates untilwe discovered that we can
actually see improvement fromthe pre to post test in our
class and so obviously nobodycomes in with well Hopefully
nobody comes in with a zero butpeople's pre test scores are
very low.
I would say our pre test andpost test are quite difficult,
you know on purpose because wewant to be conservative but we
identified that the majority ofour students, you know without a
(07:14):
few outliers really do grow to apassable Post test score.
so that for us is, something wecan, reliably claim and own.
Everything else I kind of, I'mafraid because I feel like the
pickle jar theory, right?
Like if you're the fourth personto try it, uh, it's going to
open and you're going to takecredit for it.
(07:35):
Right.
So I don't want to do that.
it's not so ego driven for me.
I feel like, you know, if peoplepass, if they keep coming back,
which they do, that meansthere's good word of mouth.
It means that wherever we are intheir journey, whether it
results in an immediate pass orjust an improvement to their
knowledge in general, which Ithink we can attest there's some
(07:56):
lacking things there.
Um, then I, I feel successful.
I think when people Stop showingup.
It means the word of mouth, youknow, doesn't improve.
I mean, to be honest, thecompany grew 500 percent in its
first two years without anyadvertising.
I mean, this is 12 years ago,almost.
This is before social media.
social media existed, but nobodywas using it to promote their
(08:17):
businesses in ABA.
we were very late to, modernmarketing, tactics.
And it was all word of mouth andit continues to be word of
mouth.
And even now, that I have actualpeople who specialize in,
analytics and marketinganalytics, the most of our
traffic is people going directlyto the site.
It's not getting there throughother means.
(08:38):
So that to me says, you know,word of mouth, but your question
was not that, was it?
It was about pass rates.
Was it about our pass rates orabout the exam in general?
Jonathan (08:46):
well, I think it's a great example of this
extraordinary need we're seeingthat you grew 500 percent in the
first two years alone and, andlike with no marketing and, um,
but I was asking about the preand post test pass rates.
If I remember correctly, thegraph, like the graphs are
pretty phenomenal.
Dana Meller (09:00):
Yeah, we get people close to 80% on their post-test
and, you know, the exam is a76%, approximate, to pass.
So, yeah, I mean, I think so,you know, I'm not looking to
provide any shortcuts foranybody, and I would rather
people that shouldn't passdidn't pass.
not because I wish anybody illand, or I don't wanna see their
careers elevate.
But, having come from, as you,as you shared, an acting
(09:23):
background, I'm incredibly proudof having, um, You know, become
a scientist, becoming anacademic person, that that's
something that I just neverreally envisioned for myself.
I just sort of saw myself as, agirl who goes to auditions and
sits on the subway learninglines and that I have this other
life and this other person thatdidn't come easy to me.
it's not like I just like cameout of the womb doing science
(09:44):
and being all smart, I had todevelop that for myself.
So.
I want everybody to have thatjourney, and I really respect
our science, and I respectacademia, and knowing things,
and earning things, and I don'twant people to think of ABA as
something less than the law, youknow, passing the bar, or
passing any level of medicalboards.
I want people to see us in thatway, so I like the competitive
(10:07):
edge of the lower pass rate forthe exam.
I don't think that will everchange, by the way.
I mean, if you look across alldisciplines, that's That's what
it is, you know, that's how theykeep it, fair, competitive.
Jonathan (10:20):
Well, Dana, I want to share.
I got to confess.
This has been a huge pebble inmy shoe and I can't figure it
out.
So you need to help me get thisright.
But I'm going to share some dataactually published by the BACB
and this is I think from 2021and these are passing rates of
the BCBA exam by master'sprogram, right?
(10:40):
And it's actually force rankedin it.
I'm going to put a link in theshow notes, but let me just
review some of this data.
So of the top 15 master'sprograms, three of those
programs, graduate students whopass.
in the 30 percent range, theyget 30 percent passing.
Two of the top 15 by volume arein the 40 percent range as they
(11:04):
pass at first time exam taking,uh, 40 percent of them pass.
Four of them are in the 50percent pass range.
Three are in the 60%.
Two are in the 70 percent andonly one is in the 80 percent
pass range and none are in the90%.
So if I were to assign lettergrades, against these.
More than half of these programsliterally get a failing grade.
(11:25):
One gets a B and the rest getsC's and D's.
So I don't know.
Here's the cynical side of me,Dana.
This is where I need help.
Here's my question.
Like it appears at universities,these master's programs are
happily taking students tuitionwhile providing an
extraordinarily inferiorproduct.
What the hell's going on?
Dana Meller (11:44):
I think about this a lot, obviously, because when
that pass rate came out, um, andthat, that was several years
back that they started toactually publish that data.
it definitely was shocking, butit didn't surprise me because I
was meeting the students and Iwas seeing major gaps in
people's knowledge.
And in the other pieces, peoplewere claiming to be getting
(12:04):
straight A's.
They were surprised that theyweren't passing the test because
the feedback they were receivingfrom the schools is that, you
know, they're successful andthey know their stuff.
Um, uh, even if they're gettingB's, even if they're getting
C's, they should be passingcause the pass rate is 76%.
So that's, you know, that's a Cplus.
but here's where my problem withthis data is.
(12:24):
Um.
This is a group design.
When you have group designs, youhave outliers.
So I don't think it's completelyfair that, you know, the
university gets blamedexclusively.
Um, but...
It's certainly somewhat like forme, it's not something that I
would measure with these passrates because again, We don't
know how many outliers.
It is so much about the studentbehavior, just like any grad
(12:47):
school.
Grad school is independent.
they're not following youaround.
They're not forcing you to dothings And if they're not
inciting buy in from thestudents to want to learn more
or engaging them in such a waythat they become behavior
analytic thinkers, then I guess,you know, that would be
problematic for me.
But I would expect this kind ofvariability and certainly with
(13:07):
bigger numbers, there's Going tobe more variability.
So that part, makes sense to me.
What I don't understand issomething less measurable and
just more, I'm sorry to bementalistic, but it's more just
the gut feeling that I have.
between programs, what I sensemore is that, what's not being,
facilitated is that, the ideathat behaviorism is, it's, it's
science, obviously, but it's away of life.
(13:29):
It's, it's philosophical.
It's who you are.
You're either behaviorallyminded or you're not.
You either look at the worldbehavior analytically or you
don't.
And so if you're going to have amaster's in behavior analysis,
then.
You should be that thing ifthat's what you're planning to
continue on.
So like, you know, when I wasstudying theater, I was an
(13:50):
actress.
I lived and breathed it.
It was everything that I was.
My friends who are in the legalprofession, they look at the
checks and balances of life, thefairness, the unfairness.
So I think if you're graduatingand you're not behavior analytic
in the way that you look at theworld, you're going to struggle.
You did not get the point.
so for me, it's why isn't thatbeing, why isn't that being
(14:12):
facilitated?
Why isn't that sort of buy inhappening?
And why are people able to get,you know, certain grades if just
philosophically this is not howthey view the world?
And that's just how I see it.
if you don't see behavioralanalysis as you walk out the
door in everything that you do,you're not going to be able to
generalize anything to anything.
And that's just part of it.
(14:33):
You're gonna get scenariosyou've never heard of on the
exam.
You can take all the prepcourse, you're not going to be
prepared for all thepossibilities.
Unless, unless you have anobjective view of how the
environment affects behavior inevery possible way.
And I hear that from my studentsall the time, I don't like
experimental design, and ethicsis so hard, and, you know, I
thought ethics would be easybecause I'm ethical.
(14:53):
and what's so funny about thatis those things are built into
every other section.
You, you don't get out easy.
You can't be great at section,you know, A and D, but not at
everything else.
It all impacts everything.
So it's a puzzle piece, and ifit doesn't all come together,
um, globally like that...
I don't see success.
So I don't know what the schoolscould do to change that, except
(15:15):
make sure that when they acceptstudents, they see behavior
analysts, you know, the, orfuture behavior analysts.
And I, I know that's kind ofabstract to look at it this way.
but to your other point.
It is a business, and of coursethey're going to take people's
money and, um, of course inthese programs they're small,
they don't have large enrollmentcompared to other departments in
(15:36):
most schools, so they are goingto take whoever they can get.
With, I'm sure, the hope thatthey can transform anybody, um,
and plus don't forget the highlevel of need.
So, it's like we ignore the needand really discriminate who we
accept and also who we hire.
Or, or do we just try to make itwork with who we have?
Jonathan (15:58):
Hmm.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think you pinpoint somethingreally critical if a university
is passing people with A's, B's,even to your point C's, um, then
they are doing them a disserviceif they can't ultimately then
pass the exam because here'swhat totally resonates with me.
I mean, think about like my, Icall it my rickety MBA, right?
I went to get a master's, but Ididn't have to test for
(16:18):
something.
I didn't have to take a barexam.
Did I gain more knowledge?
Yeah, I tend to think so.
Did I meet some great people?
Yes, absolutely.
Did I get to travel the world?
It was great.
It was awesome.
But that's right.
That's my rickety MBA.
Whereas a master's in ABA meansyou are able to achieve this
credential that gives you likelifelong job security, the
ability to help kids, adults,anyone else, all of these other
things.
(16:38):
It's like master's programs.
I would think the bar should beGetting their students to pass,
but instead of me, just likegriping about this, let's think
about like proactive solutions.
So one thing that's interestingis like accreditation of
university programs.
I know ABAI, um, has one APBArecently announced that it was
(16:59):
going to be developing auniversity program
accreditation, which I amthrilled about.
and I think the BACB hasindicated that by 2032, every
master's program is going tohave to be accredited.
Sort of like having an Americanpsychologist and APA accredited
program for, for psychologystudents and, and, and grad
programs.
Do you think accreditation isgoing to move the needle on, on
these metrics?
Dana Meller (17:18):
Well, it certainly should.
Um, I'll be honest with you.
I've recently been investigatingthis a little bit because it's
not something I really pay muchattention to because I deal with
what happens after they're inschool.
not that I shouldn't care aboutthat, but, um, so I was thinking
about, what are the pros andcons and, if you're following
any, APBA, um, thing, then youprobably would notice that,
(17:40):
there's some controversysurrounding it.
for me, I don't have a problemwith it.
I think it's great when oneorganization doesn't sort of
have ownership over an entire,um, an entire process.
So I think with APBA joiningthere, there's the potential for
more, diverse processes, there'sjust, you don't know, whatever
has been happening now isobviously not.
(18:01):
Perfect and effective.
You can't ignore the pass rates,and you certainly can't, um,
keep doing as most people aredoing.
Blame the BACB for absolutelyeverything that goes wrong in
our field.
That's, that's just not fair.
right down to people saying theymake the test too hard.
They don't want us to pass.
They want to take our money.
That's just a crazy, that's acrazy, you know, thing to say.
So, I think it will move theneedle.
(18:22):
Yeah, I think so.
I think having multipleprocesses and, you know,
different processes to meetdifferent types of needs, I
think is important.
Jonathan (18:31):
Um,
Dana Meller (18:32):
You know, I don't, I don't know if there's ever
anything wrong with peoplehaving choices.
Jonathan (18:41):
Absolutely.
So well, Dana, how's, how willpass the big exam, as test prep,
as an organization evolve, as wehopefully see pass rates
improving over time?
Dana Meller (18:51):
You know, look, if universities improve, right, it
will be interesting to see howthat affects what the exam does,
because if you look at mostprofessional exams, they
deliberately.
keep pass rates at a certainplace.
Like, they're not trying to haveeverybody pass.
So, that's why I was sayingearlier that I'm really less
concerned about the universitypass rates as I'm more concerned
(19:13):
about some of the people that Imeet in the process of prep
where I'm confused as to howthey did as well as they did in
graduate school.
So, not everybody should passjust because they have a
master's.
Um, but not everybody should gettheir master's.
If they are not ready to sit foran exam or not have the grades
that they have.
So I don't anticipate pass ratesare going to change.
(19:36):
And to be honest with you, I hada conversation years ago.
I went up to the BACB table.
Um, it was back when we weretesting monthly and it was in
May.
It was an ABAI, actually.
And I just said hello andintroduced myself and, you know,
admitted that I had I was partof past the big ABA exam.
Back then, I didn't know if itwas something that was welcomed
into the profession and And Isaid, how's the exam going?
(19:58):
You know I've got some studentsthat are sitting right now and
the person that I spoke to saidsame Just like you know Just
like always and it had beenafter a really low pass rate the
previous February and Iresponded with ah, man Oh, no.
And he goes, why?
That's what we want.
and it wasn't because he wasuncaring or unfeeling, but
(20:19):
because it seemed to be like astandard for professional exams.
Everybody can't pass.
Jonathan (20:24):
Oh, no, I totally get that.
Let's just pinpoint this forlisteners.
What I think I'll play it backfor you and gut check me on
this, but let's say everyone gotmore proficient at taking the
exam.
It just means the bar will moveup to still the same percentage
of people will pass, right?
76 percent will always pass,right?
It's just, it's a, it's a grade.
Uh, what do you call it?
Scaling grades, a
Dana Meller (20:45):
Yeah, the scaled scores will
Jonathan (20:47):
I get that.
My question, again, just comesback to why would a university
keep passing, giving A's to astudent, right?
Semester to semester, quarter toquarter, um, and telling them
you're doing great, but thenwhen they get to the ultimate
metric, which is passing theexam.
They're like these programs thatwhere 30 percent of first time
(21:10):
exam takers graduatesuccessfully from program, but
then don't pass the exam.
That's the one that really, Ijust haven't been able to get my
head around.
Dana Meller (21:18):
You know, I think that's unfortunate, but I think
in humanity, there are, a fewdifferent types of people and
there are people that, um, nomatter what's going on, have a
stake in the game and that couldbe your Starbucks barista
wanting you to have the best cupof coffee or the one that just
can't wait to clock out.
And so, you and I both have beenthrough a lot of schooling, so
we've had those professors that,that.
The word care doesn't do enoughjustice.
(21:39):
it's that they had aninvestment.
It was as if it was as importantto them as to you.
They were naturally orintrinsically motivated and
reinforced by the success oftheir students.
And that's true for all of us inevery business that we're in.
If your intrinsic motivation isthe success of your consumer or
whatever, then you are going toprovide better quality.
You are going to bettereducation better all of it.
(22:01):
So, there's probably acombination of, you know,
University programs, professors,whoever, is in charge that don't
have that sort of intrinsicmotivation.
It's a job for them.
They've got, you know, otherthings that they're doing that
are more important.
And it's just normal humanbehavior.
And then there are, of course,those people that are
intrinsically motivated by thesuccess of other people.
(22:22):
And then there's also thosepeople having to be
intrinsically motivated by theirown success.
And I think when those starsalign, you have these...
Uh, leadership, BCBAs who areimpressive and who are at
conferences and who we all wantto meet and you know, we all
know who they are and that'swhen the stars align and that's
true for doctors and there's baddoctors too, right?
(22:43):
There's doctors who've had totake their boards a bazillion
times.
Even my, you know, ex boyfriend,John F.
Kennedy Jr.
did not pass.
He's not really my ex boyfriend,but
Jonathan (22:52):
Well,
Dana Meller (22:53):
he's my biggest crush ever.
I'm, I'm sad he's gone.
Um, but, um, no, but he took thebar like a, an unreasonable
amount of times, if I rememberthat correctly.
So I think everything has to bejust right.
You've got to meet the rightpeople and you've got to be the
right person for, you know, thatcertificate to land.
But also for you to now takethat and generalize it to being
(23:15):
effective at whether or notyou're a professor, a clinician,
a prep course teacher, you know,whatever it is.
And that's probably true forwhat you do.
It's true for the administratorsat my company.
It's true for every secretary,every waiter, you know.
Jonathan (23:30):
well said Dana.
Let me throw a crazy idea outthere.
We haven't talked about thisahead of time, just to be clear
listeners, like, and you'regoing to re and you have to
react to it.
What if like, I love now thatthere is publicly available data
around these pass rates andcertain institutions that tend
to have higher pass rates on theexam than others.
What if.
As a field, ABA providers madethe choice.
(23:52):
Hey, if we provide any tuitionreimbursement or we have a field
work, like, you know,supervision residency type
program, we will only reimburseyou if you go to one of the.
Universities that has over a 70,80, 90 percent whatever pass
rate.
Would that change things?
What do you think?
Dana Meller (24:11):
Well, guess what?
No, because they're not going topay for the most expensive
school, for example.
I mean, some of these higherenrollment schools are the ones
that are online or hybrid oraffordable.
or they don't take up a lot ofyour time.
Most people are not going intotheir masters when they're 23
years old.
Most people are doing it as a,uh, not, I don't want to say
(24:33):
career transition, but theymight not have necessarily been
on that path, right, to end upbeing.
You know, being a managementlevel, uh, behaviorist.
So I don't see any company beinglike choose the highest pass
rate at the risk of it being themost expensive school.
Jonathan (24:47):
Yeah, I gotcha.
Dana Meller (24:49):
Um, but here's the other piece.
Does school, even the bestschool translate to.
Being awesome on the front linethat for me as a person who runs
an ABA company, that's what Iwould want to know more than
pass rates.
Like, is this person going toactually be good at their job?
(25:09):
Um, and of course the pass rateis also important because if
they don't have those letters, Ican't bill.
And there's all those otherthings, but I think we spend way
more money training people whoare already certified or
registered, right, than anythingelse.
Jonathan (25:23):
You know, that's such, that's such a beautiful point.
I mean, yes, it's, you have toget a certification in order to
be able to be hired and getreimbursed by Medicaid and
commercial insurance.
But more importantly, that isone of many different skills and
behavioral repertoires that haveto be developed to be as BCBA.
And we can't like just lose theforest right for the trees on
(25:44):
this.
Um, so, all right, Dana, yourhomework is going to be to find
out what that other metric wouldbe that would say that someone's
well prepared.
Dana Meller (25:53):
mean, there's just, there's so much, there's so many
components and, um, I don'tremember who I was talking to
about this, but it's almost likethere should be different tiers,
right?
Like different interests,because I would bet there's a
lot of people who don't do wellin school, who don't pass the
exam immediately.
I mean, I've heard people up tosix.
16 times, I think was thehighest number I'd ever heard.
(26:14):
I know, um, but what if they'relike really amazing clinicians?
the chances are slim that that'strue, but what if they are or
what if somebody was failing topass?
it's almost like there's a,there's a discrepancy between
the exam and what some people doday to day.
and I say that nervously becauseI, I do think the exam is
important and I do think thatyou need to have an academic
(26:35):
foundation, even if you throw itaway as soon as you would sort
of like, you know.
Is this an American hit theslopes?
I don't ski.
I don't even know if that's athing, but you know what I mean?
Like if you do anything, you'renot thinking about the
technique, right?
You're just doing the thing, butthe technique certainly keeps
you solid, keeps you less likelyto be injured, right?
(26:56):
Things like that.
So like as a singer, I have hada lot of vocal training.
I'm not thinking about thetheory behind producing sound.
When I'm up there, you know,singing a song.
so I do think it's important,but I don't know, tiers there's
so many problems with the wholesystem that are not anybody's
fault.
I mean, it's like intentionsversus, the impact, somebody
(27:20):
else said that to me recently,which I just loved.
I don't know.
I don't think this is an easysolve.
We could, we can do this weeklyand see if we come up with,
Jonathan (27:28):
You're right.
And you know what?
Here's the reality is that ourfield is still in the first
couple few innings of this ballgame of triumph of maturing.
Right?
And so, I think this comes to, aquestion I wanted to ask you
that I'm really excited to hearthat the Pass the Big ABA exam
does, but you have a providerpartnership program.
Is that right?
Like, I'd love to hear moreabout that.
(27:48):
And for listeners who are like,Ooh, how do I figure out, you
know, how do I get my, you know,residency folks involved, what
can you do there?
Dana Meller (27:55):
I really love it.
I am, I'm most excited about it.
So, the partnership, there's noterms, nobody has to pay for a
partnership, it's an informalhandshake with a few formal
processes, but basically itstarted because, as a clinician,
as a leader at an ABA agency,um, my staff passing is
something that's important forme and I liked the idea that
(28:16):
somebody could potentially takethat on for me.
So, yes, we're your partner.
Give this to your staff andwe'll take care of the rest.
And basically what we promiseand, um, my team calls it a
turnkey process, which I neverheard that used outside of real
estate.
but basically the idea is thatif you partner with us, we'll
obviously provide discounts foryour team.
Um, you know, there's no likeyou have to give us a minimum
(28:36):
number of students.
It's nothing like that.
It's just let us take that onbecause we know that the
clinical leadership in mostagencies has way bigger fish to
fry day to day than making suretheir staff get to the right
place for the right exam prep.
And so a lot of, theorganizations that we've
partnered with range fromreally, really large companies
that, you know, sort of spreadthe word across all their
different regions to justsmaller mom pop local agencies
(28:58):
who have, maybe one candidateevery couple of years.
and they send them to us and we,by virtue of the partnership, we
hold their hand a little bitthrough that process.
Um, for the agencies that payfor their staff, we reward them,
um, obviously because we thinkthat's amazing and not everybody
can do that.
But we share the metrics ifthey're interested to see if
their staff are participating,showing up.
(29:20):
We also, I will spend extra timeif it's needed, although I'll be
honest, I'll do that foranybody.
I mean, if you were like Dana,there's this person I know and
they're having a hard timepassing.
Can you hop on a call?
A hundred percent.
Is it something I'm reallypassionate about?
And I just like talking aboutit.
And I like to be served aproblem.
Um, like somebody telling me, Ican't pass in sort of
operationalizing what that isand figuring out for them.
(29:42):
when I can, what it's going totake.
And it's very rarely as mysuggestion, go buy prep
materials, because that's reallynot the answer as much as I want
to say that, you know, takingour workshop is helpful, it is,
and there's accountability andthere's community, and there's a
lot of elements that are helpfulat the end of the day, people do
pass without that stuff.
(30:02):
Um, and you know, I personally.
Probably couldn't because Ididn't have the discipline and
so I built a program that Ithought I would need.
but at the end of the day, itstill doesn't change that the
person has to do the work and Ilove to figure out how they need
to sort of shift their studymethods for themselves because
it's individualized.
I don't think there's one answerfor everybody.
(30:24):
Um, But the partnership, soit's, we're starting to partner
with universities, which I thinkis also a, um, response to the
pass rate published, beingpublished.
I think they're motivated now,just even from a business
standpoint.
Um, but agencies, a couple ofschools that, um, that have, you
know, clinical teams, definitelypartner with organizations like
LABA and BABA and WEBA, um, andmake sure that student members,
(30:48):
um, I like to promote.
Not to make this another longstory.
I'm so sorry.
but, you know what I love?
I love when we're going toagencies or universities.
Promote going to conferences andpromote that community piece
because I think if you don'thave that and you're just on
your own little island doing ABAday to day, you really miss out
on some of the, the fun, themore social stuff that I think
(31:11):
will offset burnout because ifyou experience community twice a
year at a conference or evenonce a year.
It does give you an extra boost.
And just to hear that there'speople out there going through
what you're going through andjust all that kind of stuff.
So one of the reasons we startedto reach out to, um, conferences
was that we really wanted tofacilitate helping them grow
their student membership becauseit aligned with our value of
(31:34):
helping students organicallycontact ABA.
content in a community setting.
our first organization that wepartnered with was Weba.
because again, women in behavioranalysis, we're a women owned
business.
And then after June, 2020, Ireally.
Identified being part of thesystemic problem by not seeing
my own privilege in my life andthinking, well, I'm not these
(31:56):
things.
They're not talking about meafter the whole, George Floyd,
thing.
And I was really bummed that wewere still.
Having that conversation andthat nothing had changed and,
you know, I'm not a young lady,so I've been around for several,
moments in history like that.
And so, um, that's when Ireached out to, BABA and also
LABA at that time, which isBlack Applied Behavior Analysts
or Latino Applied BehaviorAnalysis.
(32:19):
and I just wanted to say, howcan we...
We can help on the educationend.
what can we do to make yourorganization, reach students and
promote education to someunderrepresented communities?
and then we started to partnerwith those organizations.
So I'm starting to do more, uh,prep, uh, events at conferences,
which that's pretty new.
Calaba.
I just did one.
(32:40):
Um, and that was amazing.
It was a three hour workshop andthat there were as many students
that showed up as they did withvery little advertising, We'll
do better next year if they wantme back.
Um, I do one annually at theBaba conference.
Um, and now I'm actuallysubmitting it to other
conferences.
I just didn't think anybodywanted it until we had.
I think we had probably one ofthe highest attendance for any
(33:02):
symposium at the BABAconference.
And BABA, I believe, had like 40percent student attendance of
their entire attendance.
Which, that was really inspiringto me because that's what it's
about.
Jonathan (33:13):
that's beautiful.
I mean, I love, I love howyou're thinking about this from
an equity perspective, right?
That feels super important andthat you proactively reached
out.
I am such a huge fan of.
I'm not going to say test prep,but like with most things we do
in life, if we want to perfectour craft, we have to engage in
it and practice itintentionally.
(33:33):
Right.
I don't care what your craft is.
In fact, going back, I'm showingmy age, but I remember for the
SATs Dana, I had literally 25VHS tapes of like words.
And I think there was some,there's math stuff in there too.
And I was watching these, thesetest tapes and it was by myself,
but it was awesome.
But this idea of Practice withintention and recognize that it
(33:54):
doesn't matter what station youare at life.
You can always get better atsomething that feels really
important, especially when youwrap it around a community.
Um, I think missing out oncommunity is missing out on
being able to fully engage inwhatever your craft is that
feels super important.
Dana Meller (34:10):
Yeah.
And then also people are, Imean, not the SAT, you're still
in high school, so it's a littleless, but these are
professionals and theirfamilies.
And, and, you know, like I said,we're not putting it in their
brain.
We're making it easier toaccess.
We're organizing it.
And it's like having a pocketBCB explained to you.
So you have to do a little lesssearching.
But you still have to understandit.
You still have to memorize itand you still have to build
those application skills.
(34:30):
It's just a little less scarywhen it's being somewhat spoon
fed, you know?
and I think that's fair.
taking a prep course does notmake you less than.
Passing that test is, everyone'son an even playing field.
So I agree with you and I didall the SAT prep.
I did it for the GRE, um, youknow, and I liked it.
It kept me on course.
(34:51):
I knew I had a goal.
I'm trying to get a certainscore on these tests and you
know, why not?
it's not something everybodyneeds, but it's nothing wrong
with needing it.
Jonathan (35:01):
Yes, absolutely.
Malcolm Gladwell has that.
what book does he write whereit's like 10, 000 hours is what
leads to then like, like masteryof your craft that he cited the
Beatles, like playing in, inHamburg and in Germany for like
for a year.
And that's where they cut theirteeth and got their 10, 000
hours into feedback from thecrowd.
I don't know.
I, I don't know if that'sevidence
Dana Meller (35:21):
Only 10, 000 hours?
Jonathan (35:24):
Only 10, 000 hours.
well, look, I mean, I'mexhausted just like talking
through all the work you've doneto pass a big ABA exam.
But, but Dana, hold on a second.
You're also the CEO and founderof Behavioral Intervention
Specialists of Los Angeles.
So, whoo!
Dana Meller (35:39):
the founder.
Not the founder, um, but CEO.
Yeah,
Jonathan (35:43):
But CEO, okay, I got you, but so you're wearing a
couple different hats, right?
And I love, by the way, that youwere like still engaged, right?
In, in the practice of behavioranalysis.
So, so tell me about yourjourney as a services provider
and CEO, what's been the mostrewarding part of that journey?
And also, what do you know nowthat you wish you knew when you
started it?
Or when, uh, when you startedyears ago?
Dana Meller (36:04):
I don't know as far as being a CEO, what I enjoy is
obviously collaborating, um,with other clinicians and seeing
those outcomes.
I would, I'd have to kind ofredefine c e o in my role here
'cause it's not like I walkaround looking at how much money
we're making.
I'm really more of a clinicallybased c e o and I'm responsible
for the organizational trainingand just kind of making sure
(36:24):
everything runs smoothly.
I would say in the last fouryears, I've kind of stepped back
from any frontline clinicalstuff, from even going to a
home.
Um, but I.
I enjoy getting people motivatedand excited.
And like we talked about at thebeginning of this chat, helping
them build their own sort ofintrinsic motivation, like
having them buy into theoutcomes for the clients and
(36:44):
keeping that, maintaining that,because you do get tired.
It's like we were talking aboutwhen we first started in the
field, you come home every daycrying because you see sad
things.
And then eventually you don'teven realize it anymore.
It just becomes like nothing.
You become immune to some of thedifficulties.
And what I would love to helpstudents and staff maintain is
how it felt that first day whenyou thought, my God, this is so
(37:07):
important before we became sortof desensitized to how people's,
it's not just another kid thatyou've, it's not your 10, 000th
kid or parent or whatever, thatthis is that parent's first
encounter with this.
This is this kid's.
lifelong struggle and it hasnothing to do with how many
struggles I have alreadywitnessed.
Um, and you know, checking myprivilege.
(37:28):
not even just, ethnic racialprivilege, but privilege of not
having to deal with some of thedifficulties that the families
deal with.
Um, so just, you know, remindingmyself, you know, why, why we do
what we do and.
Keeping that fresh despite beingin the business for 20 years.
As far as what I wish I'd known,not so much with the clinical
stuff because I think I knewfrom day one that was going to
(37:49):
be hard and you know, that wasjust hard, period.
With PTB, I'm glad I knewnothing because I never would
have done any of it.
Ignorance is bliss.
if I knew half of thedifficulties we would have
encountered or roadblocks...
I would have been terrified.
And so I think being ignorantgives you bravery.
It's not always the best way togo, but if people say, what
(38:10):
should I do?
I want to start a business.
And they're doing a lot ofresearch and just like really
planning and taking years.
I, I almost want to say to them.
Just start it.
Just do it.
Who cares?
But that's not, um, responsible.
So I try not to say that.
We just got lucky that thereweren't any fires, but there
were cease and desist letters.
There, there was stuff, youknow, we learned the hard way
(38:31):
with impact rather than goodintentions, you know?
Uh, yeah.
Jonathan (38:36):
Being ignorant gives you bravery.
That is so, so freaking true.
And any entrepreneur who wouldtell you, Oh yeah, it's all
roses and everything's good.
Run away from that personbecause they haven't truly
experienced entrepreneurship andthe highs and the lows, right?
That come with that.
Dana Meller (38:50):
Entrepreneurship is, you know, it sounds good and
it's sexy right now because it'slike this new thing.
There's like actually degrees init, but I think it's something
you're born with.
I mean, since I was a kid, Icame from the former Soviet
union.
My parents brought back some ofthose like wooden matryoshka
dolls and little painted eggs.
And if I wanted a Barbie withouteven asking, I would sit outside
my apartment building and sellthings to, you know, people
(39:12):
walking by.
And you know, I, I was cute.
So people bought stuff from meand I'd be like, mom, I got my
9.
I'd like you to take.
It wasn't Target, but whereverit was, they sold Barbies at the
time.
Uh, you know, so I, I think Iwas always spirited that way,
but, it's not an easy life.
It's exciting, but it's, and youknow, it's, it's hard.
(39:32):
your to do list never ends andyou don't clock out.
So when I'm laying in bed atnight, I'm thinking about my
responsibility to a lot ofpeople, um, that have jobs
because of me, you know,benefits because of me,
insurance because of me,whatever it is they have because
of me.
Um, but then that's also whatsort of drives me, like what can
I do to do better?
And it, it's creative.
Jonathan (39:54):
It's so, it's so, so true.
I think there's, as anentrepreneur, there's this level
of like, you know, um,acceptability of.
Risk, because there's a lot ofrisk that comes with it.
And there has to be thiscomponent of how good are you at
bouncing back from all themistakes that we know as
entrepreneurs, we're going tomake learning from those and
just not repeating mistakes.
That feels important.
Dana Meller (40:15):
You can't be too practical.
You can't be too organized ortoo practical.
You just kind of dive, you know,which is weird.
I'm normally, I'm afraid offlying.
I'm afraid of like everything,but for some reason I'll just up
and start a business,
Jonathan (40:30):
Oh, I love it.
Well, Dana, what's one thingevery ABA business owner should
start doing and one thing tostop doing.
Dana Meller (40:37):
Incentives and motivation.
I mean, that's the thing theyshould, if they're not doing it,
uh, they should do it.
And if they.
are doing it, they should domore of it.
looking at training in adifferent way.
Um, this is actually new for me.
After this many years right now,I'm restructuring the training
program for the company forBITSLA and, um, I'm really
(40:59):
realizing like we've been doingit all wrong because it's not
something people can sustain.
my theme is recurring buy in,getting people's buy in to the
science.
Not, not treating it like clockin, clock out.
And I would say the same thingto the manager at Starbucks.
I would say, get your peopleexcited about me having the best
(41:20):
cup of coffee I ever had.
And if you can get that, thatintrinsic motivation piece, it
changes everything.
And most people don't have it.
Most people work because theyhave to.
And they start off saying, Iwant to help kids, and I want to
study psychology, and that's howmost people end up here.
But then it's hard, and you'regetting bitten, and yesterday
one of my...
Supervisors had toilet waterthrown at her and those kinds of
(41:41):
things are happening on thedaily.
You're getting hurt.
You're getting abused.
You're not getting a lot ofthank yous.
and if you haven't bought in,those are deal breakers as far
as I'm concerned.
Like, you know, I don't just letpeople throw toilet water on me
or my staff, but I've bought in.
And so that would be the thingto start doing.
Stop doing not looking at staffbehavior functionally.
(42:04):
And we all do it.
I do this at my own home, whenmy partner, when he doesn't put
things away, I just think, Oh,he's doing bad things.
But, but what's functionallygoing on is his back hurt that
day.
And so it was harder for him tolike empty the dishwasher.
And I think looking at thefunctional reason for behavior
is, um, something nobody does.
it's human to just somebody doessomething you don't like they're
bad versus looking at, it, Iguess, compassionately, which is
(42:27):
also a big buzzword right now,an important word.
But yeah, looking at staffbehavior, and having
contingencies, for good behaviorand supportive ones for the
behaviors that you don't want tosee versus, you know, writing
people up.
What does that even do?
Um, but also, ABA agencies arein a very bad predicament right
now, which is staffing is sohard and so few people in any
(42:49):
industry want to work outsidethe home.
Same.
I get it.
that, there aren't, consequencesfor, inappropriate behaviors or
not professional behaviors orhowever you want to define it.
Um, because we don't want tolose the person.
We need them to keep coming towork.
And even though they're 30minutes late every single day,
but they're so good when they'rewith the kid, those kinds of
things.
And then, and more importantly,the positive consequences, the
Jonathan (43:12):
Hmm,
Dana Meller (43:13):
It has to be something because people aren't
getting paid that much.
They, these insurance rates makeit hard and you can go work at
Starbucks, get better benefits,have less pressure, not get
wounded, um, or drive an Uber orso many other things.
So motivation, incentives,facilitating buy in and, um,
(43:34):
well, that's it.
Jonathan (43:34):
I love that I stopped not looking at sta behavior
functionally, I'm a economicsundergrad and behavioral
economics, that's called the,like the fundamental attribution
error say, oh, they're lazy, butlike, look, we know it.
What is lazy, right?
No, we are a product of ourenvironment And so whether it's
a hurt back, whatever, it's,it's just so well said.
Dana um, Tell me where peoplecan find you online.
Dana Meller (43:56):
Well, obviously, um, they can find me through
past the big ABA exam, but.
I am also my own person, and soyou can find me on Instagram,
just my name Dana Meller.
Um, you can find me on LinkedIn,Dana Meller, and on Facebook,
Dana Meller.
Um, and I, I want followers.
I want to be one of those coolpeople with thousands of
followers.
(44:16):
I don't know what for, it's notlike I'm, uh, I thought my
presence is so exciting, I'mworking on it, but, um, but I
want them, follow me.
Jonathan (44:24):
That's awesome.
I'm going to drop all these inthe show notes and listeners.
So you're aware Dana first nameis spelled DANA look her up, um,
and follow her.
I love that you're settinggoals, um, some shaping goals
towards your number offollowers.
Dana Meller (44:38):
Yep.
Jonathan (44:39):
Um, well, uh, are you ready for the hot take
questions?
Dana
Dana Meller (44:42):
I guess so.
Jonathan (44:45):
here we go.
You're on your deathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Dana Meller (44:49):
Uh, being a good friend.
Jonathan (44:52):
What's your most important self care practice?
Dana Meller (44:55):
I don't do it enough, but, um, reading
fiction.
Dumb fiction.
Like, superficial, you know,girl meets boy.
Jonathan (45:06):
I love it.
I love fiction as well.
Um, all right.
I normally ask favorite song andor music genre, but given your
background as a singer, do youhave like those singers that you
just absolutely idolize?
Dana Meller (45:19):
I do they're probably not people that anyone
knows.
Like, if you're not a musicaltheater person, but the genre I
love the most is singer,songwriters and, and, and female
ones.
Um, but I also love, I'm theworst with music, but like,
people like James Morrison, um,I like Sarah Bares.
I like Adele.
I like that kind of.
but in musical theater, myfavorite voices, um, there's a
(45:40):
performer called Jesse Muellerwho I'm obsessed with, a
Broadway star.
Um, Shoshana Bean, that'sanother Broadway star.
Uh, I mean, there's so many.
It's not interesting.
And I don't have a favoritesong.
I don't.
It's the strangest thing, but I,I literally do not.
I just, uh, I need more music inmy life, believe it or not.
Cause I sort ofcompartmentalized, you know, and
(46:02):
when I'm doing music, I'm doingmusic when I'm doing behavior
analysis, I've got to amalgamatethe two.
Cause I think there's somethingthere.
Jonathan (46:08):
Oh, I like that.
I like that challenge toyourself.
Yes.
Go get after that.
Dana Meller (46:12):
I've got so many goals.
Thanks to you.
Jonathan (46:15):
But Dana, what's one thing you'd tell your 18 year
old self?
Dana Meller (46:19):
I would tell myself not to settle for less.
Um, because I would say in mylife, I have settled for less
and for since being 18, um,because I didn't necessarily
think that I could.
Get or do better from eitherfrom people, from myself, um, in
general.
Now I don't, because I believethat more is possible in any, in
(46:41):
any capacity.
Jonathan (46:43):
All right.
And you can only wear one styleof footwear.
What would it be?
Dana Meller (46:47):
Well, I was going to say just sneakers, but that
wouldn't be completely honest.
I'm going to have to own up tosome of my bougie ness.
Uh, designer sneakers.
I mean, I have a few brands thatI like, but I'm not going to do
that because it's tooembarrassing.
It's too superficial.
And I've already owned up to toomany superficial things like
wanting followers.
I want to be an influencer.
Jonathan (47:08):
I love it.
An ABA influencer, sneakerinfluencer, I don't know, singer
songwriter, influencer, likegroup them all in together.
Dana Meller (47:14):
just influencing, just walking around town
influencing.
Jonathan (47:19):
Well, Dana, thank you so much for coming on the pod.
It was so much fun to talk toyou.
Dana Meller (47:24):
Thank you.
You too.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com