October 17, 2023 • 41 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan (00:31):
My guests today are Diana Wolf and Nick Chappell.
Diana and Nick are the co CEOsof Verbal Beginnings.
They're both BCBAs.
They're both super humble.
They're both co founders of theDisrupt ABA Conference coming up
in November.
And they're two of possibly thecoolest people I have ever known
in the field.
Diana and Nick, welcome to thepod.
Nick (00:51):
Thank you.
Jonathan (00:52):
we've been talking about doing this for years now.
I think like our friendship hasgone back to an autism investor
summit, maybe two, three, fouryears ago, we got together at an
awesome little LA cafe sittingoutside of the sidewalk.
And we just had like, I don'tknow, there were so many
connections that we made around.
My, actually my co founder, Willand I, our organization Ascend
(01:13):
and there was so much simpaticoin how we thought about the
world and about quality andabout core values.
So I am pumped to be talkingwith y'all a chunk about verbal
beginnings and then we're goingto be dishing on the Disrupt ABA
conference coming up soon.
So let's start with verbalbeginnings.
I've just been fascinated byy'all's journey and what an
extraordinary organizationyou've built.
So Diana, tell me something thatI know is so important to you is
(01:35):
this idea of investing in yourpeople and just being core
values focused.
Tell me more about how you dothat.
Diana (01:42):
Oh yeah.
So, I guess, well, a long timeago, we realized that we didn't
have core values within theorganization and we needed some.
So in order to get some, welooked within the organization
to see what people were doing atVerbal Beginnings and our core
values came out of that.
(02:02):
So we saw people collaborating.
We saw people super excitedabout disseminating the science
of applied behavior analysis.
Educating families on thetreatment plans and,
participating in research andbringing that research into
Verbal Beginnings means superinnovative and then also
inspiring others.
(02:23):
To be part of that science.
So those core values were bornfrom our people.
and right now we're so excitedbecause people are putting them
into action.
We're seeing them all the time.
They're helping us achieve ourmission.
So it's really cool.
and the latest core value thatwe decided to add on, which we
have this wheel of core valuesand right smack in the middle is
(02:46):
a quality at our core.
Because quality runs througheverything that we do, and now
we're looking at all of ourprocesses, all of our systems,
um, everything that's internaland external, we want there to
be a seal of quality, becausewhat's the point of us doing it
if it's not based on quality?
So, yeah, that's our story.
Jonathan (03:07):
You know what I love about that is so many
organizations do it the exactopposite way, right?
You got a couple founders orCEOs on the board that sit
around a room and like navelgaze and then come up with what
they think are like some coolhip core values that go fit into
a fancy anagram or something.
But you all did it the exactopposite way around you observed
behaviors, you saw what peoplewere doing day to day and, and I
(03:28):
think, and I'm very biased withthis, but that is far and away
how you get the strongest corevalues in an organization.
But let's come, and double clickon this idea of like quality at
the core.
And Nick, I know somethingyou're passionate about, is this
idea, it's not just focusing onquality.
That's one thing, right?
And that's one set ofchallenges, but it's how do you
focus on quality?
As you also grow, thatintroduces a whole different
(03:51):
layer to quality.
So tell me how you think aboutthat, dude.
Nick (03:55):
Right.
So focusing on quality as youcontinue to grow.
That's dynamic.
It's constantly changing withinan organization, especially in
the field of ABA.
Because when you're looking atthe field of ABA, regulations
change, expectations change, andwhat families want and how they
perceive the needs of theirchild is constantly changing.
(04:16):
I think, you know, more in thepast when Diana and I were
involved, we were more hands onwith the clients and we were
able to really have anunderstanding of it just
personally, but as the companygrows and we start stepping out,
it really boils down to the factthat you have to hire the right
people.
And we started off with greatclinical supervisors, which are
(04:40):
our BCBAs and they were reallyfocused on quality, which was
amazing.
But as that continued to growand we brought on more and more
people, we developed it byputting in supervisors of those
individuals and really created ahierarchy.
We felt that, this was an endpoint in looking at our future
or like, you know, this is it,this is our support network.
(05:02):
But what we found was that if wewant to do consistency across
the organization, We had to putin a quality assurance team and
we spent the last year buildingon our quality assurance team,
which has just been amazing.
And this group of clinicians ledby Rebecca Womak and they've
really looked at all aspects ofour organization, how it aligns
(05:24):
with recommendations from theCASP guidelines, what we're
finding from different,accreditations and the feedback
from those, and reallyinstilling that into everything
that we're doing at theorganization, and we're making
tremendous progress.
And the fact that we have a teamdedicated to it means that like
we're pushing the point where wecan start measuring things.
(05:46):
And yeah, that starts speakingfor itself.
And as BCBAs, right, we alwayslike to measure and validate and
hitting that point and saying,yeah, we're a hundred percent
confident that what we're doingis quality service has just been
an amazing experience.
Jonathan (06:03):
I can attest to this, what you described is realizing
that it has to live beyond justyou all.
I kid you not, and I want topaint this picture for the
listeners.
We had that first dinnertogether a few years ago.
I'll never forget.
You had a big clinicalsupervisor meeting or I don't
know, it was a quarterly meetingor it was a big meeting.
But you all literally pulled anall nighter.
I think you also took a red eyeback and but it was the two of
(06:23):
you out there crushing it justlike doing it.
This is what I say.
You're so humble.
You work harder than anyone Iknow.
but I love that you took thatnext step of how do we put this
quality assurance team in place?
But I know the other thing,Diana, that's so important to
y'all is that, this doesn'thappen in a vacuum, just at
verbal beginnings partnershipsare really important too, right?
Diana (06:42):
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
So, you know, speaking ofquality, we have these really
amazing partnerships.
So our accreditation.
So we are so happy.
We have three frigginaccreditations.
Like, what?
What, where did that come from?
our people are awesome.
So, we just got our trainingsite accreditation, so we're so
excited, from the BHCOE, so wehave the BHCOE accreditation,
(07:06):
the full accreditation for that,training site.
And then recently we were one ofthe first two organizations to
get the ACQ accreditation.
you know, it's just like theseal of approval that we value
quality'cause it's not arequirement.
You don't have to do it, but.
The reason that we have beendoing it, we've been doing it
for so long, is it gives us apeek into what could we possibly
(07:29):
improve.
Um, we actually, on our team,have a director of continuous
improvement.
because you can't stay stagnantas an organization, no matter
what organization you are, youhave to keep moving forward.
and in order to do that, you gotto figure out how you're doing,
where your weaknesses are andhow to fix them.
So these accreditations reallyhelp us to look at verbal
(07:54):
beginnings internally, selfassess ourselves, and with the
help of these accreditations.
They're assessing us, too.
But then we're looking at, okay,here's an action plan.
We're never going to be perfect.
There's always going to besomething that we need to work
on.
And this kind of gives us areally good idea of what we can
focus on for the next two years.
(08:17):
so we really value that.
We're going to keep going.
these accreditations mean a lotto us.
and the fact that we have them,we're just constantly
celebrating because, oh man, ittook a long time to get here and
our people are tired.
but they're also invested in thework and they know that the work
that they're doing is reallygreat.
Jonathan (08:37):
Yeah, I love that we feel so similarly about
accreditation, right?
this is discretionary behaviorthat we're engaging in, right?
And what would Dr.
Aubrey Daniels tell us?
Like there has to be somethingreally motivating about it, and
it's not like necessarily higherreimbursement rates.
It's not like all these otherexternal rewards.
We're not getting to go up andstage or go to the White House
or something.
there's this more intrinsicbenefit to knowing that we're
(08:58):
putting our money where ourmouth is and we're modeling this
for our teams and for ourclients.
So I could not agree more and Ilove that y'all are invested in
it.
But you know, there's also thisreally hard question.
You all have been growing.
I mean, you've been around forwhat, more than a dozen years
now, which is extraordinary.
and I should say you're based inMaryland, but it's hard to say
like to pinpoint Nick.
When is the right time to grow?
(09:20):
Right?
Do you get this tap on theshoulder from someone that's
like the sky's open up andyou're like, Oh yes, it's right.
It's really hard.
How do you think aboutdetermining the right time?
When's the right time?
Nick (09:30):
Yeah.
So I think that's a greatquestion and thinking about it
you want to say that there'scertain variables that need to
be in place, but in reality, inthis field, a human service
field.
Employing tons of individualsthat have growth trajectories.
They want career advancement.
(09:50):
they want to move on to newpositions, better positions.
We have families that need newtools for success.
If you want to stay ahead andyou want to be able to provide
all the resources that everybodythat you're going to be
contacting with, have contactwith.
The right time to grow isalways, and, that's really what
it comes down to because youhave a lot of responsibility.
(10:13):
You have a lot of responsibilityfor the people that you employ,
and you're responsible for allthe clients.
And what that means is you haveto continually grow to be able
to provide those resources.
But the caveat to that is togrow responsibly.
So that's what's gonna pace you.
And you don't want to get aheadof yourself, but you want to
(10:35):
make sure that you always haveplans to grow.
But you want to make sure thatyou have those key elements in
place, like quality assuranceteams, right?
Core values.
You have the necessary culturein place and it's something that
you're always working on.
Sometimes you start seeingyourself getting ahead of
yourself and.
That you just have to have goodself reflection.
(10:56):
And I think one of the keybenefits of us having two co
CEOs, right?
It's just been an amazingopportunity that when we each
have ideas for growth, we'renaturally a system of checks and
balances.
Jonathan (11:10):
as you described that, Nick, one of my favorite quotes
came to mind.
I think it was Albert Einsteinthat said something like, if
you're not learning, you'redying.
And so it's so true, always isthe right time to grow.
Always is the right time tolearn, but it's about pacing
yourself and self reflection.
there's no way I could have donewhat I've done without my co CEO
and my partner Will, right.
Cause it is so freaking lonelyat the top, you all know this
(11:31):
best, right?
It is so lonely.
And to be able to have someoneelse to bounce ideas off of to
like punching bag back and forthand let the best idea win is
really critical.
And one of the things that feelsso important to me about
thinking about growth, but alsojust thinking about great
organizations.
Um, in fact, one of my favoritebooks of all time I've mentioned
on the pod before is Good toGreat Jim Collins.
and basically he takes thesedyads of different organizations
(11:55):
that um, in the same industryand in the same time period, one
of whom thrived became great.
And one of whom kind ofwithered, right.
Or did okay.
and he analyzed this across avariety of different industries
and he came up with six coreprinciples.
So it's really researchinformed.
It's really cool.
Um, but the first principle hedescribed was get the right
people in the right seats on thebus.
(12:16):
And Diana, tell me about howy'all do that at Verbal
Beginnings.
I know that's super important toyou.
Diana (12:22):
Oh, my goodness, I'm so passionate about that.
and I think I'm this passionateabout it because, over like the
12 years that we've been inbusiness, it's like, you just
don't know, who's going to bethe right person, but you also
don't know what's going to bethe right seat as you're scaling
and you're growing, you havethis concept in mind, um, and
you're trying and you're like,okay, conceptually this makes
(12:44):
sense, let me put this intoaction.
And then something, somethingdoesn't go right.
And that affects your growth andthat affects the people there
because now they're gettingburnout.
So now that we're at this moreestablished state, and we have
the established seats that wewant to fill.
we really need to, make surethat we have the right people in
(13:07):
the right seats.
Those are the people that aregoing to help us grow the way
that we want to grow withoutburdening the people that are
here trying to make adifference, but we're just
spinning our wheels.
And I gotta say, like right now,oh my gosh, our team is
phenomenal.
I love them.
They are so awesome.
(13:28):
Um, each one has, differentskill sets, different
backgrounds.
they've come from, differentwalks of life, but, They all
connect through our mission,through our core values,
changing lives, and they work sowell together that, it's,
they're really an asset to theorganization.
(13:49):
So definitely right people inthe right seats.
Jonathan (13:53):
Right on.
it's like one of the mostfulfilling things in the world
to know that you've got like ateam around you and in y'all's
case it's like a leadershipexecutive team, that's carrying
that mission.
that much farther forward thanif you all were just brute
forcing and pulling allnighters.
There's only so many allnighters, there's only so many
hours of the week you couldactually, pull.
But you know, one of the thingswe are human services
(14:15):
organizations, right?
And at its heart, that's whatmakes it extraordinary.
running and founding ABAorganizations.
That's also what makes our jobsso freaking hard.
And Nick, I was really fortunatein August at the ABA care
staffing summit.
I got to see you do apresentation where you did, I
mean, you did a bunch ofresearch on generational.
(14:36):
on generations.
And you also did surveys of yourown teams.
it was the coolest presentationdude.
share some with the listenersshare some of the highlights of,
uh, of what you presented, whatyou took away and learned from
that.
Nick (14:50):
Yeah, I think it's amazing when we start looking at
generations and looking at theirimpact on the workforce, it was
just really fascinating on howtimes are changing and what
we're seeing ahead of us.
And I think the biggest changethat we're about to see is that
we're seeing this Gen Zpopulation starting to enter
(15:11):
into the workforce.
And we're, we're at thebeginning of that.
So we really have to understandthat if we're going to run
successful businesses, how arewe going to make that population
work?
Now, when we look at the pastand we look at what were the
expectations of millennialgenerations, we looked at fast
growth on an upper trajectory.
(15:32):
And.
That, that was cool.
We built systems around that,that was easy to manage.
But when we start seeing thosenot working, we go back and we
evaluate and say, you know, whatdo we need to do differently?
And the coolest thing that wesaw was that with this
generation, it's about gettingahead professionally.
(15:52):
And we see that career growthis, is expected, but to happen
fast.
But the amazing part about it.
Is that we're really workingwith a generation that's not
afraid to shift careers.
So I ran into this new thing andthe new thing was, right after
we had the great resignation,everybody knew about it, but the
(16:15):
silent killer that, that cameout after that, a lot of people
didn't hear about was the greatreshuffle.
And the great reshuffle is, hey,let's just leave our career.
It wasn't about let's leave ourjob and get the same job
somewhere else.
It was about shuffling to anentire different career.
So when it comes to like what wesaid with our staff was a
(16:37):
strategy around that is leaveyour career, but not your job.
So, so how do you accommodatethat?
And you do that by buildinglearning opportunities within
your organization for newcareers as well as paving the
way and putting some other linesof service in to allow people to
start moving through that.
(16:57):
And I think it's reallyimportant and it's really
indicative of the culture thatwe're now seeing.
And I think learning and growthis becoming one of the most
important things within anorganization and really defining
of what a necessary culture is.
Jonathan (17:15):
What a cool concept of like turning it inward to say
like, how do we allow our peopleto change careers without
changing jobs?
I think that's a really, that's.
That's a powerful and differentway of thinking about that.
You know, one of the other datapoints that, that I, I took away
from your presentation is like,and you did extensive surveys.
Um, but you asked what is asustainable, income and Gen Z,
(17:37):
talked about 175, 000 is whatThey want to make, right?
And a lot of these are likeRBT's as Gen Z's, right?
They haven't yet maybe gone out,get their Master's in BCBA's,
but this is the expectation.
175, 000, which at first justblew my mind.
Like,
Nick (17:52):
Yes.
Jonathan (17:53):
wow, I don't think I've ever had, personally, as
Jonathan Mueller, an expectationto like make 175, 000 ever in my
life.
But then I stepped back and youhelped me think about this, but
I want your insights to it.
And what I took away from howyou like characterize this was
Okay, if someone's not going tomake 175, 000, because maybe
they realize that's notrealistic, it means they will
have that much higher of anexpectation for their job and
(18:15):
how they can be fulfilled fromthat job and what their
advancement opportunities are.
Did I get that right?
Tell me more.
Nick (18:23):
yeah, yeah, you did.
And you're pretty spot on withit.
I think one of the things thatwe're seeing from this
generation, the new generationin the workforce, is they've
grown up in a time of financialinsecurity.
Now it's a short period of time,and maybe that's gonna wash out
over time, but the expectationsare, I need to be financially
secure.
And when they say, well, look,What do you expect as a starting
(18:45):
salary coming out from anundergraduate degree?
So the range is, High fifties toeighties, right?
And that's very hard to achieve.
In reality, what they're seeingis that the, across the board
nationally, we're seeing anaverage of 40, 40, 000, 42, 000.
So when we look at it onaverage, that entire generation
(19:07):
that's coming up is reallymaking less than what they want.
So what we're seeing, thisstarts compounding, right?
Because this generation thenstarts looking for second jobs.
And then we're now entering thisphase where we're seeing a lot
more focus on work life balanceand mental health.
And when you're working twojobs, that starts to get
impacted.
(19:27):
Now, now the concept though, isthat.
I can start alleviating some ofthose stressors.
I can start having a better worklife balance if I'm making more,
because I'm going to have tostop pursuing those second jobs.
So that that's where it comesback to career development,
career growth.
how can I move into a new careerthat's going to pay me more
(19:48):
money now going from.
That 50, 000 to that 170, 000like you're talking about, and
just to set the record clear,that was the minimum.
So 170, 000 was like, this iswhat financial security is to
me.
This is where I need to be.
And the level of patience ingetting there, right?
It's short.
I want to be there now, but thatnumber exceeded 200, 000 a year.
(20:13):
So that's what this generationis going for.
So when they're starting at 40,we're going to see a lot of
let's move to the next higherpaying job.
One, work life balance,financial security, mental
health.
So at the end of the day, willthis be realistic?
Maybe, maybe not.
it's a long road, but you know,what can we do to create the
(20:35):
impression that we're actuallystarting to move people in that
direction?
And, and that's what we need tocapture with our culture.
Jonathan (20:41):
This is so powerful and this is what I want
listeners and particularlyleaders in our field and ABA
organization founders and ownersto, to take away.
It's not just poo pooing, haha,that's so unrealistic and don't
poo poo an entire generation.
It's turn the magnifying glassback on yourself and your
organization and figure out thisis that next generation of
workforce that you need to besuccessful with and you need to
(21:02):
motivate the right ways toaccomplish the outcomes you want
for your organization.
So how do you put thatmagnifying glass on yourself?
And create that kind of careerpathing and development and
support and work life fit andeverything that you just
described.
That's what it feels like is thekey takeaway.
Well, I want to transition nowto disrupt ABA.
I am so pumped to talk aboutthis conference.
(21:22):
It's coming up November 11th,2023.
And, uh, it's entirely onlinehosted on behavior live.
So super exciting.
And Diana, let's start with youon this.
I know, um, you like so many ofus, we're so tired of hearing
like big organizations aren'tthriving, right?
We've seen the cards of theworld go bankrupt.
We've seen, um, all kinds ofbigger organizations not be
(21:44):
successful or pull out of ABAservices or altogether pull out
of States, you name it.
But then we know smallorganizations aren't thriving,
right?
So it's like, ah, there's justbeen this perpetual beat of
hard, bad news last couple offew years.
why do you want to disrupt ABADiana?
Like, what's the point?
Diana (22:03):
Um, I'm tired.
I'm tired of hearing all thiscrap, in our field.
I just renewed my BACBcertificate.
I am a BCBA.
I am proud to be a BCBA.
I went into this field because Iknow ABA therapy works.
It's great.
It has meaning.
Um, it can change a lot of livesand the current climate is
(22:28):
fucking it all up.
that's all I can say about it.
And um, I'm so sick and tired ofABA organizations spinning their
wheels, focusing on the wrongmeasures, doing the wrong
things, screwing clients over,screwing staff over.
For what?
Like, what are we doing?
(22:49):
This field is going south andit's going south quickly.
We, we have a duty to this fieldbecause it's done so much for
us.
And I feel like we also have amegaphone through, um, Behavior
Live and what we've built withour Verbal Beginnings
(23:10):
University.
And now's the opportunity toturn that megaphone into
microphones and give power tothose voices that we stand
behind or know that they aredisrupting the field and have
really cool ideas.
And Disrupt ABA is just allowingus not to keep our mouths shut
(23:35):
and really, um, help peoplepivot their thinking about what
the field is.
So I'm excited.
I'm really excited about Disruptand what's going to happen.
Those talks are phenomenal.
The people there are amazing.
All the speakers are just, I'mso excited for it.
Jonathan (23:57):
Oh, I have goosebumps.
that was like a call to arms andah, men, sister.
Um, Nick, I want to highlightthe speakers in just a moment,
but first, Nick, what do youhope people are going to take
away from the conference?
Nick (24:10):
All right.
So to what Diana said, we'regoing to be raising some issues,
right?
And those issues are going toaddress a ton of different
areas.
you're going to have greatperspectives on diversity,
equity, inclusion.
you're going to hear fromindividuals diagnosed with
autism.
You're going to get the truemeaning and the story behind
everything.
(24:31):
And exactly what she said, wewant people to walk away.
From a conference with thosethings in mind and how they're
impacting the field and what wecan do about them.
But we don't want thatconference to end there.
the point of this is a catalyst.
we want people to walk away asowners saying, all right, it's
been addressed, it's beenrecognized.
(24:53):
It's okay to start working onthese things now.
I'm going to put this intoaction.
But, but this isn't just forowners.
This is for clinicians.
This is for people who reallyvalue their organization.
So we want those people to walkaway and say, I want to make
this change.
We want them to talk to theirsupervisor and say, this is now
known, right?
We had thousands of people atthis conference and they all
(25:15):
agree with us.
So let's, let's talk about theelephant in the room, but let's
have some action points andlet's have some people coming
out of this ready to make thosechanges.
Jonathan (25:28):
Yes.
Yes.
And yes, please.
And I just want to highlight,this is a who's, who's
extraordinary list of peoplewere talking about really big,
bold topics to your point.
And I mean, I can't go throughall of them, but Dr.
Ellie Kazemi has a talk WTF thisisn't the career I signed up
for.
Denisha Gingles is talking aboutcultural change from within how
you create change in theworkplace.
(25:49):
Um, Dr.
Rebecca Larson's talking aboutthe science of big ideas and
pushing past adversity anddoubt.
Manny Rodriguez is there.
And, um, I love his title, likereinforcing entitlement in the
workplace.
Stop.
I can just, I can hear it.
It's, it's genius.
Uh, Mandy Ralston is going to bethere about clinical decision
support systems and how weleverage technology.
(26:09):
Um, I'll be there with Dr.
Robbie El Fattal talking aboutfive trends.
We'll see.
I mean, it's just literally likeHolly Beth Klauser is going to
talk about talent acquisition.
Dr.
Tyra Sellers of, APBA is goingto be describing weaponizing
ethics, what a term, right?
Hardcore.
And how did it come to this?
So anyway, this is literallylike a who's who list of topics
and bold ideas.
(26:31):
And Diana, you once had thisextraordinary quote.
You said to me, something to theeffect, there's, there's
opportunity for change.
We have to embark on it.
I don't know.
What do you think, Diana?
what does our field look likenext year and beyond if disrupt
ABA goes well?
Diana (26:48):
Hopefully some of these, organizations around the nation
will take these ideas and runwith them, and make change.
Not be afraid to stand up and,um, and, and show how impactful
the change has been.
I think we're listening to thewrong people.
I mean, payers are pushing usaround.
(27:10):
people have partners that maynot understand the field and
they're getting pushed aroundtoo.
You gotta stay true to ourscience, stay true to what we
started out with, why we're herein the first place.
and also look ahead, what'shappening, where are we going
with this?
Value based care is a hugeinitiative.
(27:32):
and when you look at it's goingto help us prove that the
science of ABA is effective.
So the fact that we haven'tfigured out how to do it yet is
like, come on, let's just do italready.
And like, let's all jump on thesame wagon and just get it done.
I know it takes time and we havesome really smart people working
on it, but, um, yeah, it's justtaking forever.
(27:54):
But I think also that there'sonly a few that are actively
invested in change and everyoneelse is kind of just following
along.
You need to stop following alongand just...
Be their own voices.
Be loud.
Jonathan (28:10):
Be that, and that takes a ton of courage, right?
Especially for any of us in thefield, this is the hardest work
we'll ever do.
Whether we're working one on onewith the kiddo 40 hours a week
or we're BCBAs, you know,supervising a hard, never
evolving caseload ororganizational leaders, right?
Trying to create the kinds oforganizations that, um, that we
want to live up to.
Like that stuff's really hardjust as is.
(28:31):
And now I, I like again, thiscall to arms of like, This takes
courage, but more voices have tostand up.
I, I just have to go throughmore of the speakers.
cause it is literally, this islike the who's, who's list.
Nasiah Cirincione-Ulezi istalking about culturally
responsive leadership.
Megan DeLeon is talking abouthas ABA or posing the question,
has ABA lost its heart again onthe social validity of centering
(28:52):
autistic Voices.
Sarah Litvack of the BHCOE istalking about a field in flux,
charting a path forward in ABA.
Russell Lehman, who is at thisyear's Autism Investor Summit, a
star from Love on the SpectrumUS, um, and is just one of the
most compelling.
voices and like presentationsI've seen in the last few years,
(29:12):
um, when ignorance becomesawareness, the dark side of
autism, like, ah, there's just,there's so much richness here.
I can't even begin to tell youhow excited I am for this.
November 11th, 2023.
You can sign up on behaviorlive.
it is all virtual, so there's nobarrier to attending because you
got to fly somewhere or drivesomewhere.
Um, and I promise you it will beaction packed.
(29:35):
Well, let me ask a hardquestion, um, of the two of you.
What's one thing every ABAbusiness owner should start
doing and One thing to stopdoing.
Diana (29:45):
this was kind of easy for me to, I do this almost every
single day.
ABA owners need to stopconsulting Facebook for legal
advice.
I'm not kidding because you knowwhat?
Um, they get the answers thatare provided are wrong.
(30:05):
And what do they do with thoseanswers?
They say, thank you so much.
I'll try it.
You're screwing yourself over.
Don't do it.
Jonathan (30:17):
well said.
Maybe discerning between whenyou're asking for advice that's
just advice.
Cool.
Versus like when this has truelegal implications, that's like
a skill set in and of itself.
So true.
Diana (30:27):
I don't think they understand the difference.
Um, Nick, what should they do?
Nick (30:31):
Yes.
So, so this is very simple.
Hire an accountant and hire anattorney and you'll be in good
hands.
Ask them all the questions.
It's reasonable.
Sometimes it's expensive, right?
But the return on investment,it's a lot cheaper to pay an
attorney than it is to make amistake.
You'll be happy at the end.
Jonathan (30:52):
Well said.
I like that.
It's sort of this recognitionthat there are the same way that
there are highly, um, trainedspecialists.
BCBAs and RBTs and BCBADs doingthe work we do.
There are highly trainedspecialists who focus on things
like accounting and legal workand all of that.
So, um, uh, amen Brother.
(31:14):
All right.
Well, where can people findy'all and Disrupt ABA online?
Diana (31:20):
So, um, we both have LinkedIn profiles and we love
followers.
So hopefully, um, people willstart following us and liking us
and whoever does, I'll like themback.
Cause I, I love that.
I want to see where people arecoming from, um, to see if we
have shared interests, anddisrupt, disrupt ABA is on
(31:40):
behavior live, um, website isbehaviorlive.com/disruptaba
Jonathan (31:49):
awesome.
And I'll drop links to yourLinkedIn profiles, Disrupt ABA
and to Verbal Beginnings in theshow notes.
All right, y'all, are you readyfor the hot take rapid fire
questions?
Nick (31:59):
Let's do it.
Jonathan (32:00):
All right.
Let's uh, for each one of these,Nick, I'm going to have you
answer first and then Diana, youget to follow up.
So here we go.
You're on your deathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Nick (32:12):
Very easy.
Being a good father.
Family first.
It's the most important part ofeverything you do in life.
Jonathan (32:25):
How about you, Diana?
Diana (32:27):
Oh, um, that's a really good one.
I think I'm definitely going tobe remembered for that already.
So, from a professionalstandpoint, I just.
I love impacting, people andhelping them find their passions
and helping them succeed infinding them and then just being
(32:49):
happy in what they do.
Um, I've seen it happen time andtime again at Verbal Beginnings
and that just makes me so happy.
So at the end of the day, if Ihelp people succeed to do what
they love to do, um, think I'm,I'm good.
Jonathan (33:06):
Rock on.
What's your most important selfcare practice, Nick?
Nick (33:11):
The only time I really find that I can put my phone
away.
Forget about work, put it allaside, is when I'm out doing
something with the kids, andit's amazing.
If you're on a soccer field,that's three hours away from
your phone, right?
You're watching a movie withyour daughter, that's two hours
away from you.
And you're away from your phonebecause you're not thinking
(33:33):
about work.
You're thinking about family.
And Those opportunities are justamazing, and I don't think that
it gets any better than that.
Jonathan (33:45):
Diana?
Diana (33:48):
Mine's similar.
Um, but I like to travel, um,to, you know, put everything
aside and just go away becauseyes, you need that distraction.
So you're not like pulled back.
and we've had some really coolfamily trips.
Uh, we just recently, over thesummer we did a Mediterranean
cruise.
Um, so we hit up a lot ofcountries, like Spain and Italy,
(34:11):
France, it was amazing.
And the kids arrived, like, theyactually really enjoyed it, um,
and that was really cool, like,sharing those moments and
memories with them.
Um, during COVID we would goaway, we camp all the time, we
have a trailer and we take itout and just go in the, in the
parks and, and camp and theylove that, and I love that.
(34:33):
There's no cell service.
I love it even more.
Um, it's really like that selfcare.
I come back and I'm like, allright, I'm rested, ready to go.
Jonathan (34:44):
Nice.
All right, Nick.
Favorite song and or musicgenre?
Nick (34:49):
Okay, very easy.
So, for me, it's gonna beDisagreement for many, but I
really love the the band Live,the song Lightning Crashes,
right?
So that fits right in there withmy favorite genre.
of alternative music.
I think the coolest thing thathappened was I was at a concert
and um, live was playing andthis was right outside of
(35:14):
Cleveland, Ohio.
And they start up that song,Lightning Crashes.
The second they start it up,lightning shoots out of the sky,
right?
Boom, thunderstorm.
Outdoor concert, you think theycall it.
Everybody going for safety, no,just crowds wild.
It was like the pinnacle ofhaving a favorite song.
It was very cool.
Jonathan (35:33):
Oh, that is so uber classic 90s.
Ah, and it's like, if y'allhaven't read the lyrics,
listeners, to, to LightningCrashes, it's pretty intense.
it's, it's good.
It's deep.
I love
Nick (35:45):
Yeah.
Jonathan (35:46):
Diana, how about you?
Diana (35:49):
Oh, I'm a sucker for 80s music.
Um, and my kids really like ittoo.
Um, we actually have likelaundry folding parties where
we'll just like fold laundry andlike, have dance parties to the
music, so it's cool.
they really enjoy it, so theymust have really good taste in
music.
Jonathan (36:11):
All right, well, you know what my very first cassette
tape was?
I don't know if people know whatcassette tapes are anymore.
Uh, the soundtrack to Footloose.
Oh, I can still picture it waslike a white cassette, but with
like, orange and the A side andthe B side.
Oh, it's so good.
Um, go watch that movie,Footloose, if you haven't seen
it.
(36:31):
Haha,
Diana (36:32):
They did a remake too.
Jonathan (36:34):
What?
Diana (36:35):
Yeah.
Oh, the remake's old.
Jonathan (36:38):
Wait, stop it.
Like, Kevin Bacon, Footloose?
They did a remake?
Diana (36:42):
No, they um, I think they casted someone else, but I'm
pretty sure, right?
I don't know.
Am I, was I dreaming?
Jonathan (36:50):
think you're probably right.
I think I just haven't seen it,but that is bold.
And I got to go back and see,well, hey, if they can get Top
Gun, Maverick, right.
Right.
Like after all those years,then, uh, I believe it for
others.
what's one thing you'd tell your18 year old self?
Nick (37:05):
Oh, my 18 year old self is...
Pursue happiness, set asideexpectations and what other
people want.
Think about what's going to makeyou happy and move in that
direction.
And if you start that early on,you're going to be on a good
path in life.
Jonathan (37:26):
Nice.
Diana.
Diana (37:29):
You know, I thought of this one and you know how you
watch movies where if you likego back in time and then Um, you
know, do anything to the past.
It creates like this alternativeuniverse and then you're going
on this different path.
So I don't want to tell anythingto my 18 year old self because,
um, I don't want to change howMy life has happened.
(37:53):
I love this.
I love what I do.
My family is awesome.
Um, I, I don't want to disruptanything except the field of
ABA.
Jonathan (38:06):
That's, that's like, that's such a mature way to
think about it.
There's a great Stephen Kingbook that actually talks about
the Kennedy assassination.
1122 63 I think is the title.
No spoilers, um, but it's allabout how do you go and like,
change the past?
And what happens when you dochange the past?
and Diana you are absolutelyright.
There was a Footloose remake,um, in 2011.
(38:26):
12 years ago, about the sametime that Verbal Beginnings got
started.
So you are so right.
Diana (38:33):
knew it.
Jonathan (38:34):
Oh, oh, wow.
Now I feel like really crazy.
And it got, uh, looks like itgot a 68 percent on Rotten
Tomatoes.
So, um, all right.
That, that, that's worth aflyer.
I'll take a flyer on that.
Um, all right.
Final question, Nick.
You can only wear one style offootwear.
What would it be?
Nick (38:49):
Oh, it's, it's simple.
Adidas shoes, the mostcomfortable shoes in the world.
you get the white ones.
They look fancy.
You wear them with a businesssuit, right?
Never got to take them off.
Jonathan (39:02):
Ah, I love it.
Didn't Run DMC have Adidasshoes?
Like wasn't, didn't they makethose big back in the eighties?
Maybe I'm not thinking about it,
Nick (39:09):
You know, I I'm new to the Adidas market and I kind of
regret that.
And you know, maybe that's oneof those things that I should
have told my 18 year old self islike, look, you got to start
buying Adidas.
Thank you.
Jonathan (39:21):
absolutely.
How about you Diana?
Diana (39:24):
Um, heels all the way.
I find myself being One of theshortest people when I go to
conferences and, uh, uh, just atwork.
And I'm like, no, I'm going towear heels.
I'm going to try to be as tallas possible.
Um, cause I feel tall.
I just, you know, after I takelike a group picture, I'm like,
wait, is that me?
(39:47):
So definitely like nice, a nicepair of heels goes a long way.
Jonathan (39:51):
Nice.
Well, hey, Nick and Diana, thankyou so much for coming on the
pod.
This has been an absolute joyand I can't wait to see y'all at
Disrupt ABA.
Diana (40:00):
Thanks, Jonathan.
This is fun.
Nick (40:02):
Yeah, it's been amazing.
We appreciate the time.
My guests today are Diana Wolf and Nick Chappell.
Diana and Nick are the co CEOsof Verbal Beginnings.
They're both BCBAs.
They're both super humble.
They're both co founders of theDisrupt ABA Conference coming up
in November.
And they're two of possibly thecoolest people I have ever known
in the field.
Diana and Nick, welcome to thepod.
Nick (00:51):
Thank you.
Jonathan (00:52):
we've been talking about doing this for years now.
I think like our friendship hasgone back to an autism investor
summit, maybe two, three, fouryears ago, we got together at an
awesome little LA cafe sittingoutside of the sidewalk.
And we just had like, I don'tknow, there were so many
connections that we made around.
My, actually my co founder, Willand I, our organization Ascend
(01:13):
and there was so much simpaticoin how we thought about the
world and about quality andabout core values.
So I am pumped to be talkingwith y'all a chunk about verbal
beginnings and then we're goingto be dishing on the Disrupt ABA
conference coming up soon.
So let's start with verbalbeginnings.
I've just been fascinated byy'all's journey and what an
extraordinary organizationyou've built.
So Diana, tell me something thatI know is so important to you is
(01:35):
this idea of investing in yourpeople and just being core
values focused.
Tell me more about how you dothat.
Diana (01:42):
Oh yeah.
So, I guess, well, a long timeago, we realized that we didn't
have core values within theorganization and we needed some.
So in order to get some, welooked within the organization
to see what people were doing atVerbal Beginnings and our core
values came out of that.
(02:02):
So we saw people collaborating.
We saw people super excitedabout disseminating the science
of applied behavior analysis.
Educating families on thetreatment plans and,
participating in research andbringing that research into
Verbal Beginnings means superinnovative and then also
inspiring others.
(02:23):
To be part of that science.
So those core values were bornfrom our people.
and right now we're so excitedbecause people are putting them
into action.
We're seeing them all the time.
They're helping us achieve ourmission.
So it's really cool.
and the latest core value thatwe decided to add on, which we
have this wheel of core valuesand right smack in the middle is
(02:46):
a quality at our core.
Because quality runs througheverything that we do, and now
we're looking at all of ourprocesses, all of our systems,
um, everything that's internaland external, we want there to
be a seal of quality, becausewhat's the point of us doing it
if it's not based on quality?
So, yeah, that's our story.
Jonathan (03:07):
You know what I love about that is so many
organizations do it the exactopposite way, right?
You got a couple founders orCEOs on the board that sit
around a room and like navelgaze and then come up with what
they think are like some coolhip core values that go fit into
a fancy anagram or something.
But you all did it the exactopposite way around you observed
behaviors, you saw what peoplewere doing day to day and, and I
(03:28):
think, and I'm very biased withthis, but that is far and away
how you get the strongest corevalues in an organization.
But let's come, and double clickon this idea of like quality at
the core.
And Nick, I know somethingyou're passionate about, is this
idea, it's not just focusing onquality.
That's one thing, right?
And that's one set ofchallenges, but it's how do you
focus on quality?
As you also grow, thatintroduces a whole different
(03:51):
layer to quality.
So tell me how you think aboutthat, dude.
Nick (03:55):
Right.
So focusing on quality as youcontinue to grow.
That's dynamic.
It's constantly changing withinan organization, especially in
the field of ABA.
Because when you're looking atthe field of ABA, regulations
change, expectations change, andwhat families want and how they
perceive the needs of theirchild is constantly changing.
(04:16):
I think, you know, more in thepast when Diana and I were
involved, we were more hands onwith the clients and we were
able to really have anunderstanding of it just
personally, but as the companygrows and we start stepping out,
it really boils down to the factthat you have to hire the right
people.
And we started off with greatclinical supervisors, which are
(04:40):
our BCBAs and they were reallyfocused on quality, which was
amazing.
But as that continued to growand we brought on more and more
people, we developed it byputting in supervisors of those
individuals and really created ahierarchy.
We felt that, this was an endpoint in looking at our future
or like, you know, this is it,this is our support network.
(05:02):
But what we found was that if wewant to do consistency across
the organization, We had to putin a quality assurance team and
we spent the last year buildingon our quality assurance team,
which has just been amazing.
And this group of clinicians ledby Rebecca Womak and they've
really looked at all aspects ofour organization, how it aligns
(05:24):
with recommendations from theCASP guidelines, what we're
finding from different,accreditations and the feedback
from those, and reallyinstilling that into everything
that we're doing at theorganization, and we're making
tremendous progress.
And the fact that we have a teamdedicated to it means that like
we're pushing the point where wecan start measuring things.
(05:46):
And yeah, that starts speakingfor itself.
And as BCBAs, right, we alwayslike to measure and validate and
hitting that point and saying,yeah, we're a hundred percent
confident that what we're doingis quality service has just been
an amazing experience.
Jonathan (06:03):
I can attest to this, what you described is realizing
that it has to live beyond justyou all.
I kid you not, and I want topaint this picture for the
listeners.
We had that first dinnertogether a few years ago.
I'll never forget.
You had a big clinicalsupervisor meeting or I don't
know, it was a quarterly meetingor it was a big meeting.
But you all literally pulled anall nighter.
I think you also took a red eyeback and but it was the two of
(06:23):
you out there crushing it justlike doing it.
This is what I say.
You're so humble.
You work harder than anyone Iknow.
but I love that you took thatnext step of how do we put this
quality assurance team in place?
But I know the other thing,Diana, that's so important to
y'all is that, this doesn'thappen in a vacuum, just at
verbal beginnings partnershipsare really important too, right?
Diana (06:42):
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
So, you know, speaking ofquality, we have these really
amazing partnerships.
So our accreditation.
So we are so happy.
We have three frigginaccreditations.
Like, what?
What, where did that come from?
our people are awesome.
So, we just got our trainingsite accreditation, so we're so
excited, from the BHCOE, so wehave the BHCOE accreditation,
(07:06):
the full accreditation for that,training site.
And then recently we were one ofthe first two organizations to
get the ACQ accreditation.
you know, it's just like theseal of approval that we value
quality'cause it's not arequirement.
You don't have to do it, but.
The reason that we have beendoing it, we've been doing it
for so long, is it gives us apeek into what could we possibly
(07:29):
improve.
Um, we actually, on our team,have a director of continuous
improvement.
because you can't stay stagnantas an organization, no matter
what organization you are, youhave to keep moving forward.
and in order to do that, you gotto figure out how you're doing,
where your weaknesses are andhow to fix them.
So these accreditations reallyhelp us to look at verbal
(07:54):
beginnings internally, selfassess ourselves, and with the
help of these accreditations.
They're assessing us, too.
But then we're looking at, okay,here's an action plan.
We're never going to be perfect.
There's always going to besomething that we need to work
on.
And this kind of gives us areally good idea of what we can
focus on for the next two years.
(08:17):
so we really value that.
We're going to keep going.
these accreditations mean a lotto us.
and the fact that we have them,we're just constantly
celebrating because, oh man, ittook a long time to get here and
our people are tired.
but they're also invested in thework and they know that the work
that they're doing is reallygreat.
Jonathan (08:37):
Yeah, I love that we feel so similarly about
accreditation, right?
this is discretionary behaviorthat we're engaging in, right?
And what would Dr.
Aubrey Daniels tell us?
Like there has to be somethingreally motivating about it, and
it's not like necessarily higherreimbursement rates.
It's not like all these otherexternal rewards.
We're not getting to go up andstage or go to the White House
or something.
there's this more intrinsicbenefit to knowing that we're
(08:58):
putting our money where ourmouth is and we're modeling this
for our teams and for ourclients.
So I could not agree more and Ilove that y'all are invested in
it.
But you know, there's also thisreally hard question.
You all have been growing.
I mean, you've been around forwhat, more than a dozen years
now, which is extraordinary.
and I should say you're based inMaryland, but it's hard to say
like to pinpoint Nick.
When is the right time to grow?
(09:20):
Right?
Do you get this tap on theshoulder from someone that's
like the sky's open up andyou're like, Oh yes, it's right.
It's really hard.
How do you think aboutdetermining the right time?
When's the right time?
Nick (09:30):
Yeah.
So I think that's a greatquestion and thinking about it
you want to say that there'scertain variables that need to
be in place, but in reality, inthis field, a human service
field.
Employing tons of individualsthat have growth trajectories.
They want career advancement.
(09:50):
they want to move on to newpositions, better positions.
We have families that need newtools for success.
If you want to stay ahead andyou want to be able to provide
all the resources that everybodythat you're going to be
contacting with, have contactwith.
The right time to grow isalways, and, that's really what
it comes down to because youhave a lot of responsibility.
(10:13):
You have a lot of responsibilityfor the people that you employ,
and you're responsible for allthe clients.
And what that means is you haveto continually grow to be able
to provide those resources.
But the caveat to that is togrow responsibly.
So that's what's gonna pace you.
And you don't want to get aheadof yourself, but you want to
(10:35):
make sure that you always haveplans to grow.
But you want to make sure thatyou have those key elements in
place, like quality assuranceteams, right?
Core values.
You have the necessary culturein place and it's something that
you're always working on.
Sometimes you start seeingyourself getting ahead of
yourself and.
That you just have to have goodself reflection.
(10:56):
And I think one of the keybenefits of us having two co
CEOs, right?
It's just been an amazingopportunity that when we each
have ideas for growth, we'renaturally a system of checks and
balances.
Jonathan (11:10):
as you described that, Nick, one of my favorite quotes
came to mind.
I think it was Albert Einsteinthat said something like, if
you're not learning, you'redying.
And so it's so true, always isthe right time to grow.
Always is the right time tolearn, but it's about pacing
yourself and self reflection.
there's no way I could have donewhat I've done without my co CEO
and my partner Will, right.
Cause it is so freaking lonelyat the top, you all know this
(11:31):
best, right?
It is so lonely.
And to be able to have someoneelse to bounce ideas off of to
like punching bag back and forthand let the best idea win is
really critical.
And one of the things that feelsso important to me about
thinking about growth, but alsojust thinking about great
organizations.
Um, in fact, one of my favoritebooks of all time I've mentioned
on the pod before is Good toGreat Jim Collins.
and basically he takes thesedyads of different organizations
(11:55):
that um, in the same industryand in the same time period, one
of whom thrived became great.
And one of whom kind ofwithered, right.
Or did okay.
and he analyzed this across avariety of different industries
and he came up with six coreprinciples.
So it's really researchinformed.
It's really cool.
Um, but the first principle hedescribed was get the right
people in the right seats on thebus.
(12:16):
And Diana, tell me about howy'all do that at Verbal
Beginnings.
I know that's super important toyou.
Diana (12:22):
Oh, my goodness, I'm so passionate about that.
and I think I'm this passionateabout it because, over like the
12 years that we've been inbusiness, it's like, you just
don't know, who's going to bethe right person, but you also
don't know what's going to bethe right seat as you're scaling
and you're growing, you havethis concept in mind, um, and
you're trying and you're like,okay, conceptually this makes
(12:44):
sense, let me put this intoaction.
And then something, somethingdoesn't go right.
And that affects your growth andthat affects the people there
because now they're gettingburnout.
So now that we're at this moreestablished state, and we have
the established seats that wewant to fill.
we really need to, make surethat we have the right people in
(13:07):
the right seats.
Those are the people that aregoing to help us grow the way
that we want to grow withoutburdening the people that are
here trying to make adifference, but we're just
spinning our wheels.
And I gotta say, like right now,oh my gosh, our team is
phenomenal.
I love them.
They are so awesome.
(13:28):
Um, each one has, differentskill sets, different
backgrounds.
they've come from, differentwalks of life, but, They all
connect through our mission,through our core values,
changing lives, and they work sowell together that, it's,
they're really an asset to theorganization.
(13:49):
So definitely right people inthe right seats.
Jonathan (13:53):
Right on.
it's like one of the mostfulfilling things in the world
to know that you've got like ateam around you and in y'all's
case it's like a leadershipexecutive team, that's carrying
that mission.
that much farther forward thanif you all were just brute
forcing and pulling allnighters.
There's only so many allnighters, there's only so many
hours of the week you couldactually, pull.
But you know, one of the thingswe are human services
(14:15):
organizations, right?
And at its heart, that's whatmakes it extraordinary.
running and founding ABAorganizations.
That's also what makes our jobsso freaking hard.
And Nick, I was really fortunatein August at the ABA care
staffing summit.
I got to see you do apresentation where you did, I
mean, you did a bunch ofresearch on generational.
(14:36):
on generations.
And you also did surveys of yourown teams.
it was the coolest presentationdude.
share some with the listenersshare some of the highlights of,
uh, of what you presented, whatyou took away and learned from
that.
Nick (14:50):
Yeah, I think it's amazing when we start looking at
generations and looking at theirimpact on the workforce, it was
just really fascinating on howtimes are changing and what
we're seeing ahead of us.
And I think the biggest changethat we're about to see is that
we're seeing this Gen Zpopulation starting to enter
(15:11):
into the workforce.
And we're, we're at thebeginning of that.
So we really have to understandthat if we're going to run
successful businesses, how arewe going to make that population
work?
Now, when we look at the pastand we look at what were the
expectations of millennialgenerations, we looked at fast
growth on an upper trajectory.
(15:32):
And.
That, that was cool.
We built systems around that,that was easy to manage.
But when we start seeing thosenot working, we go back and we
evaluate and say, you know, whatdo we need to do differently?
And the coolest thing that wesaw was that with this
generation, it's about gettingahead professionally.
(15:52):
And we see that career growthis, is expected, but to happen
fast.
But the amazing part about it.
Is that we're really workingwith a generation that's not
afraid to shift careers.
So I ran into this new thing andthe new thing was, right after
we had the great resignation,everybody knew about it, but the
(16:15):
silent killer that, that cameout after that, a lot of people
didn't hear about was the greatreshuffle.
And the great reshuffle is, hey,let's just leave our career.
It wasn't about let's leave ourjob and get the same job
somewhere else.
It was about shuffling to anentire different career.
So when it comes to like what wesaid with our staff was a
(16:37):
strategy around that is leaveyour career, but not your job.
So, so how do you accommodatethat?
And you do that by buildinglearning opportunities within
your organization for newcareers as well as paving the
way and putting some other linesof service in to allow people to
start moving through that.
(16:57):
And I think it's reallyimportant and it's really
indicative of the culture thatwe're now seeing.
And I think learning and growthis becoming one of the most
important things within anorganization and really defining
of what a necessary culture is.
Jonathan (17:15):
What a cool concept of like turning it inward to say
like, how do we allow our peopleto change careers without
changing jobs?
I think that's a really, that's.
That's a powerful and differentway of thinking about that.
You know, one of the other datapoints that, that I, I took away
from your presentation is like,and you did extensive surveys.
Um, but you asked what is asustainable, income and Gen Z,
(17:37):
talked about 175, 000 is whatThey want to make, right?
And a lot of these are likeRBT's as Gen Z's, right?
They haven't yet maybe gone out,get their Master's in BCBA's,
but this is the expectation.
175, 000, which at first justblew my mind.
Like,
Nick (17:52):
Yes.
Jonathan (17:53):
wow, I don't think I've ever had, personally, as
Jonathan Mueller, an expectationto like make 175, 000 ever in my
life.
But then I stepped back and youhelped me think about this, but
I want your insights to it.
And what I took away from howyou like characterize this was
Okay, if someone's not going tomake 175, 000, because maybe
they realize that's notrealistic, it means they will
have that much higher of anexpectation for their job and
(18:15):
how they can be fulfilled fromthat job and what their
advancement opportunities are.
Did I get that right?
Tell me more.
Nick (18:23):
yeah, yeah, you did.
And you're pretty spot on withit.
I think one of the things thatwe're seeing from this
generation, the new generationin the workforce, is they've
grown up in a time of financialinsecurity.
Now it's a short period of time,and maybe that's gonna wash out
over time, but the expectationsare, I need to be financially
secure.
And when they say, well, look,What do you expect as a starting
(18:45):
salary coming out from anundergraduate degree?
So the range is, High fifties toeighties, right?
And that's very hard to achieve.
In reality, what they're seeingis that the, across the board
nationally, we're seeing anaverage of 40, 40, 000, 42, 000.
So when we look at it onaverage, that entire generation
(19:07):
that's coming up is reallymaking less than what they want.
So what we're seeing, thisstarts compounding, right?
Because this generation thenstarts looking for second jobs.
And then we're now entering thisphase where we're seeing a lot
more focus on work life balanceand mental health.
And when you're working twojobs, that starts to get
impacted.
(19:27):
Now, now the concept though, isthat.
I can start alleviating some ofthose stressors.
I can start having a better worklife balance if I'm making more,
because I'm going to have tostop pursuing those second jobs.
So that that's where it comesback to career development,
career growth.
how can I move into a new careerthat's going to pay me more
(19:48):
money now going from.
That 50, 000 to that 170, 000like you're talking about, and
just to set the record clear,that was the minimum.
So 170, 000 was like, this iswhat financial security is to
me.
This is where I need to be.
And the level of patience ingetting there, right?
It's short.
I want to be there now, but thatnumber exceeded 200, 000 a year.
(20:13):
So that's what this generationis going for.
So when they're starting at 40,we're going to see a lot of
let's move to the next higherpaying job.
One, work life balance,financial security, mental
health.
So at the end of the day, willthis be realistic?
Maybe, maybe not.
it's a long road, but you know,what can we do to create the
(20:35):
impression that we're actuallystarting to move people in that
direction?
And, and that's what we need tocapture with our culture.
Jonathan (20:41):
This is so powerful and this is what I want
listeners and particularlyleaders in our field and ABA
organization founders and ownersto, to take away.
It's not just poo pooing, haha,that's so unrealistic and don't
poo poo an entire generation.
It's turn the magnifying glassback on yourself and your
organization and figure out thisis that next generation of
workforce that you need to besuccessful with and you need to
(21:02):
motivate the right ways toaccomplish the outcomes you want
for your organization.
So how do you put thatmagnifying glass on yourself?
And create that kind of careerpathing and development and
support and work life fit andeverything that you just
described.
That's what it feels like is thekey takeaway.
Well, I want to transition nowto disrupt ABA.
I am so pumped to talk aboutthis conference.
(21:22):
It's coming up November 11th,2023.
And, uh, it's entirely onlinehosted on behavior live.
So super exciting.
And Diana, let's start with youon this.
I know, um, you like so many ofus, we're so tired of hearing
like big organizations aren'tthriving, right?
We've seen the cards of theworld go bankrupt.
We've seen, um, all kinds ofbigger organizations not be
(21:44):
successful or pull out of ABAservices or altogether pull out
of States, you name it.
But then we know smallorganizations aren't thriving,
right?
So it's like, ah, there's justbeen this perpetual beat of
hard, bad news last couple offew years.
why do you want to disrupt ABADiana?
Like, what's the point?
Diana (22:03):
Um, I'm tired.
I'm tired of hearing all thiscrap, in our field.
I just renewed my BACBcertificate.
I am a BCBA.
I am proud to be a BCBA.
I went into this field because Iknow ABA therapy works.
It's great.
It has meaning.
Um, it can change a lot of livesand the current climate is
(22:28):
fucking it all up.
that's all I can say about it.
And um, I'm so sick and tired ofABA organizations spinning their
wheels, focusing on the wrongmeasures, doing the wrong
things, screwing clients over,screwing staff over.
For what?
Like, what are we doing?
(22:49):
This field is going south andit's going south quickly.
We, we have a duty to this fieldbecause it's done so much for
us.
And I feel like we also have amegaphone through, um, Behavior
Live and what we've built withour Verbal Beginnings
(23:10):
University.
And now's the opportunity toturn that megaphone into
microphones and give power tothose voices that we stand
behind or know that they aredisrupting the field and have
really cool ideas.
And Disrupt ABA is just allowingus not to keep our mouths shut
(23:35):
and really, um, help peoplepivot their thinking about what
the field is.
So I'm excited.
I'm really excited about Disruptand what's going to happen.
Those talks are phenomenal.
The people there are amazing.
All the speakers are just, I'mso excited for it.
Jonathan (23:57):
Oh, I have goosebumps.
that was like a call to arms andah, men, sister.
Um, Nick, I want to highlightthe speakers in just a moment,
but first, Nick, what do youhope people are going to take
away from the conference?
Nick (24:10):
All right.
So to what Diana said, we'regoing to be raising some issues,
right?
And those issues are going toaddress a ton of different
areas.
you're going to have greatperspectives on diversity,
equity, inclusion.
you're going to hear fromindividuals diagnosed with
autism.
You're going to get the truemeaning and the story behind
everything.
(24:31):
And exactly what she said, wewant people to walk away.
From a conference with thosethings in mind and how they're
impacting the field and what wecan do about them.
But we don't want thatconference to end there.
the point of this is a catalyst.
we want people to walk away asowners saying, all right, it's
been addressed, it's beenrecognized.
(24:53):
It's okay to start working onthese things now.
I'm going to put this intoaction.
But, but this isn't just forowners.
This is for clinicians.
This is for people who reallyvalue their organization.
So we want those people to walkaway and say, I want to make
this change.
We want them to talk to theirsupervisor and say, this is now
known, right?
We had thousands of people atthis conference and they all
(25:15):
agree with us.
So let's, let's talk about theelephant in the room, but let's
have some action points andlet's have some people coming
out of this ready to make thosechanges.
Jonathan (25:28):
Yes.
Yes.
And yes, please.
And I just want to highlight,this is a who's, who's
extraordinary list of peoplewere talking about really big,
bold topics to your point.
And I mean, I can't go throughall of them, but Dr.
Ellie Kazemi has a talk WTF thisisn't the career I signed up
for.
Denisha Gingles is talking aboutcultural change from within how
you create change in theworkplace.
(25:49):
Um, Dr.
Rebecca Larson's talking aboutthe science of big ideas and
pushing past adversity anddoubt.
Manny Rodriguez is there.
And, um, I love his title, likereinforcing entitlement in the
workplace.
Stop.
I can just, I can hear it.
It's, it's genius.
Uh, Mandy Ralston is going to bethere about clinical decision
support systems and how weleverage technology.
(26:09):
Um, I'll be there with Dr.
Robbie El Fattal talking aboutfive trends.
We'll see.
I mean, it's just literally likeHolly Beth Klauser is going to
talk about talent acquisition.
Dr.
Tyra Sellers of, APBA is goingto be describing weaponizing
ethics, what a term, right?
Hardcore.
And how did it come to this?
So anyway, this is literallylike a who's who list of topics
and bold ideas.
(26:31):
And Diana, you once had thisextraordinary quote.
You said to me, something to theeffect, there's, there's
opportunity for change.
We have to embark on it.
I don't know.
What do you think, Diana?
what does our field look likenext year and beyond if disrupt
ABA goes well?
Diana (26:48):
Hopefully some of these, organizations around the nation
will take these ideas and runwith them, and make change.
Not be afraid to stand up and,um, and, and show how impactful
the change has been.
I think we're listening to thewrong people.
I mean, payers are pushing usaround.
(27:10):
people have partners that maynot understand the field and
they're getting pushed aroundtoo.
You gotta stay true to ourscience, stay true to what we
started out with, why we're herein the first place.
and also look ahead, what'shappening, where are we going
with this?
Value based care is a hugeinitiative.
(27:32):
and when you look at it's goingto help us prove that the
science of ABA is effective.
So the fact that we haven'tfigured out how to do it yet is
like, come on, let's just do italready.
And like, let's all jump on thesame wagon and just get it done.
I know it takes time and we havesome really smart people working
on it, but, um, yeah, it's justtaking forever.
(27:54):
But I think also that there'sonly a few that are actively
invested in change and everyoneelse is kind of just following
along.
You need to stop following alongand just...
Be their own voices.
Be loud.
Jonathan (28:10):
Be that, and that takes a ton of courage, right?
Especially for any of us in thefield, this is the hardest work
we'll ever do.
Whether we're working one on onewith the kiddo 40 hours a week
or we're BCBAs, you know,supervising a hard, never
evolving caseload ororganizational leaders, right?
Trying to create the kinds oforganizations that, um, that we
want to live up to.
Like that stuff's really hardjust as is.
(28:31):
And now I, I like again, thiscall to arms of like, This takes
courage, but more voices have tostand up.
I, I just have to go throughmore of the speakers.
cause it is literally, this islike the who's, who's list.
Nasiah Cirincione-Ulezi istalking about culturally
responsive leadership.
Megan DeLeon is talking abouthas ABA or posing the question,
has ABA lost its heart again onthe social validity of centering
(28:52):
autistic Voices.
Sarah Litvack of the BHCOE istalking about a field in flux,
charting a path forward in ABA.
Russell Lehman, who is at thisyear's Autism Investor Summit, a
star from Love on the SpectrumUS, um, and is just one of the
most compelling.
voices and like presentationsI've seen in the last few years,
(29:12):
um, when ignorance becomesawareness, the dark side of
autism, like, ah, there's just,there's so much richness here.
I can't even begin to tell youhow excited I am for this.
November 11th, 2023.
You can sign up on behaviorlive.
it is all virtual, so there's nobarrier to attending because you
got to fly somewhere or drivesomewhere.
Um, and I promise you it will beaction packed.
(29:35):
Well, let me ask a hardquestion, um, of the two of you.
What's one thing every ABAbusiness owner should start
doing and One thing to stopdoing.
Diana (29:45):
this was kind of easy for me to, I do this almost every
single day.
ABA owners need to stopconsulting Facebook for legal
advice.
I'm not kidding because you knowwhat?
Um, they get the answers thatare provided are wrong.
(30:05):
And what do they do with thoseanswers?
They say, thank you so much.
I'll try it.
You're screwing yourself over.
Don't do it.
Jonathan (30:17):
well said.
Maybe discerning between whenyou're asking for advice that's
just advice.
Cool.
Versus like when this has truelegal implications, that's like
a skill set in and of itself.
So true.
Diana (30:27):
I don't think they understand the difference.
Um, Nick, what should they do?
Nick (30:31):
Yes.
So, so this is very simple.
Hire an accountant and hire anattorney and you'll be in good
hands.
Ask them all the questions.
It's reasonable.
Sometimes it's expensive, right?
But the return on investment,it's a lot cheaper to pay an
attorney than it is to make amistake.
You'll be happy at the end.
Jonathan (30:52):
Well said.
I like that.
It's sort of this recognitionthat there are the same way that
there are highly, um, trainedspecialists.
BCBAs and RBTs and BCBADs doingthe work we do.
There are highly trainedspecialists who focus on things
like accounting and legal workand all of that.
So, um, uh, amen Brother.
(31:14):
All right.
Well, where can people findy'all and Disrupt ABA online?
Diana (31:20):
So, um, we both have LinkedIn profiles and we love
followers.
So hopefully, um, people willstart following us and liking us
and whoever does, I'll like themback.
Cause I, I love that.
I want to see where people arecoming from, um, to see if we
have shared interests, anddisrupt, disrupt ABA is on
(31:40):
behavior live, um, website isbehaviorlive.com/disruptaba
Jonathan (31:49):
awesome.
And I'll drop links to yourLinkedIn profiles, Disrupt ABA
and to Verbal Beginnings in theshow notes.
All right, y'all, are you readyfor the hot take rapid fire
questions?
Nick (31:59):
Let's do it.
Jonathan (32:00):
All right.
Let's uh, for each one of these,Nick, I'm going to have you
answer first and then Diana, youget to follow up.
So here we go.
You're on your deathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Nick (32:12):
Very easy.
Being a good father.
Family first.
It's the most important part ofeverything you do in life.
Jonathan (32:25):
How about you, Diana?
Diana (32:27):
Oh, um, that's a really good one.
I think I'm definitely going tobe remembered for that already.
So, from a professionalstandpoint, I just.
I love impacting, people andhelping them find their passions
and helping them succeed infinding them and then just being
(32:49):
happy in what they do.
Um, I've seen it happen time andtime again at Verbal Beginnings
and that just makes me so happy.
So at the end of the day, if Ihelp people succeed to do what
they love to do, um, think I'm,I'm good.
Jonathan (33:06):
Rock on.
What's your most important selfcare practice, Nick?
Nick (33:11):
The only time I really find that I can put my phone
away.
Forget about work, put it allaside, is when I'm out doing
something with the kids, andit's amazing.
If you're on a soccer field,that's three hours away from
your phone, right?
You're watching a movie withyour daughter, that's two hours
away from you.
And you're away from your phonebecause you're not thinking
(33:33):
about work.
You're thinking about family.
And Those opportunities are justamazing, and I don't think that
it gets any better than that.
Jonathan (33:45):
Diana?
Diana (33:48):
Mine's similar.
Um, but I like to travel, um,to, you know, put everything
aside and just go away becauseyes, you need that distraction.
So you're not like pulled back.
and we've had some really coolfamily trips.
Uh, we just recently, over thesummer we did a Mediterranean
cruise.
Um, so we hit up a lot ofcountries, like Spain and Italy,
(34:11):
France, it was amazing.
And the kids arrived, like, theyactually really enjoyed it, um,
and that was really cool, like,sharing those moments and
memories with them.
Um, during COVID we would goaway, we camp all the time, we
have a trailer and we take itout and just go in the, in the
parks and, and camp and theylove that, and I love that.
(34:33):
There's no cell service.
I love it even more.
Um, it's really like that selfcare.
I come back and I'm like, allright, I'm rested, ready to go.
Jonathan (34:44):
Nice.
All right, Nick.
Favorite song and or musicgenre?
Nick (34:49):
Okay, very easy.
So, for me, it's gonna beDisagreement for many, but I
really love the the band Live,the song Lightning Crashes,
right?
So that fits right in there withmy favorite genre.
of alternative music.
I think the coolest thing thathappened was I was at a concert
and um, live was playing andthis was right outside of
(35:14):
Cleveland, Ohio.
And they start up that song,Lightning Crashes.
The second they start it up,lightning shoots out of the sky,
right?
Boom, thunderstorm.
Outdoor concert, you think theycall it.
Everybody going for safety, no,just crowds wild.
It was like the pinnacle ofhaving a favorite song.
It was very cool.
Jonathan (35:33):
Oh, that is so uber classic 90s.
Ah, and it's like, if y'allhaven't read the lyrics,
listeners, to, to LightningCrashes, it's pretty intense.
it's, it's good.
It's deep.
I love
Nick (35:45):
Yeah.
Jonathan (35:46):
Diana, how about you?
Diana (35:49):
Oh, I'm a sucker for 80s music.
Um, and my kids really like ittoo.
Um, we actually have likelaundry folding parties where
we'll just like fold laundry andlike, have dance parties to the
music, so it's cool.
they really enjoy it, so theymust have really good taste in
music.
Jonathan (36:11):
All right, well, you know what my very first cassette
tape was?
I don't know if people know whatcassette tapes are anymore.
Uh, the soundtrack to Footloose.
Oh, I can still picture it waslike a white cassette, but with
like, orange and the A side andthe B side.
Oh, it's so good.
Um, go watch that movie,Footloose, if you haven't seen
it.
(36:31):
Haha,
Diana (36:32):
They did a remake too.
Jonathan (36:34):
What?
Diana (36:35):
Yeah.
Oh, the remake's old.
Jonathan (36:38):
Wait, stop it.
Like, Kevin Bacon, Footloose?
They did a remake?
Diana (36:42):
No, they um, I think they casted someone else, but I'm
pretty sure, right?
I don't know.
Am I, was I dreaming?
Jonathan (36:50):
think you're probably right.
I think I just haven't seen it,but that is bold.
And I got to go back and see,well, hey, if they can get Top
Gun, Maverick, right.
Right.
Like after all those years,then, uh, I believe it for
others.
what's one thing you'd tell your18 year old self?
Nick (37:05):
Oh, my 18 year old self is...
Pursue happiness, set asideexpectations and what other
people want.
Think about what's going to makeyou happy and move in that
direction.
And if you start that early on,you're going to be on a good
path in life.
Jonathan (37:26):
Nice.
Diana.
Diana (37:29):
You know, I thought of this one and you know how you
watch movies where if you likego back in time and then Um, you
know, do anything to the past.
It creates like this alternativeuniverse and then you're going
on this different path.
So I don't want to tell anythingto my 18 year old self because,
um, I don't want to change howMy life has happened.
(37:53):
I love this.
I love what I do.
My family is awesome.
Um, I, I don't want to disruptanything except the field of
ABA.
Jonathan (38:06):
That's, that's like, that's such a mature way to
think about it.
There's a great Stephen Kingbook that actually talks about
the Kennedy assassination.
1122 63 I think is the title.
No spoilers, um, but it's allabout how do you go and like,
change the past?
And what happens when you dochange the past?
and Diana you are absolutelyright.
There was a Footloose remake,um, in 2011.
(38:26):
12 years ago, about the sametime that Verbal Beginnings got
started.
So you are so right.
Diana (38:33):
knew it.
Jonathan (38:34):
Oh, oh, wow.
Now I feel like really crazy.
And it got, uh, looks like itgot a 68 percent on Rotten
Tomatoes.
So, um, all right.
That, that, that's worth aflyer.
I'll take a flyer on that.
Um, all right.
Final question, Nick.
You can only wear one style offootwear.
What would it be?
Nick (38:49):
Oh, it's, it's simple.
Adidas shoes, the mostcomfortable shoes in the world.
you get the white ones.
They look fancy.
You wear them with a businesssuit, right?
Never got to take them off.
Jonathan (39:02):
Ah, I love it.
Didn't Run DMC have Adidasshoes?
Like wasn't, didn't they makethose big back in the eighties?
Maybe I'm not thinking about it,
Nick (39:09):
You know, I I'm new to the Adidas market and I kind of
regret that.
And you know, maybe that's oneof those things that I should
have told my 18 year old self islike, look, you got to start
buying Adidas.
Thank you.
Jonathan (39:21):
absolutely.
How about you Diana?
Diana (39:24):
Um, heels all the way.
I find myself being One of theshortest people when I go to
conferences and, uh, uh, just atwork.
And I'm like, no, I'm going towear heels.
I'm going to try to be as tallas possible.
Um, cause I feel tall.
I just, you know, after I takelike a group picture, I'm like,
wait, is that me?
(39:47):
So definitely like nice, a nicepair of heels goes a long way.
Jonathan (39:51):
Nice.
Well, hey, Nick and Diana, thankyou so much for coming on the
pod.
This has been an absolute joyand I can't wait to see y'all at
Disrupt ABA.
Diana (40:00):
Thanks, Jonathan.
This is fun.
Nick (40:02):
Yeah, it's been amazing.
We appreciate the time.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com