October 24, 2023 • 40 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan (00:30):
My guest today is Dr.
Callie Plattner.
Callie's been a lover oflearning in all things behavior
analysis since she startedworking in group homes when she
was 18.
She's been a BCBA for 15 yearsand is the VP of Clinical
operations for Mosaic PediatricTherapy, a clinic-based ABA
provider, North Carolina,Virginia, and Tennessee, with
over a hundred BCBAs in 25clinics.
(00:51):
She served as two-time pastpresident of NCABA, serving the
board of directors for APBA.
And as a subject matter expertfor the BACB and CASP, and
Callie is a published author ofbook chapters and research
related to parent experience,staff training, and how the two
intersect.
Callie, welcome to the pod.
And is there anything you don'tdo, dude?
Callie (01:11):
Hey, Jonathan.
Um, thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
And also really grateful for allof those amazing experiences
that I've had so far.
Jonathan (01:21):
I love the gratitude.
You know, Callie, you and I gotto meet, uh, we were both on a
panel that was moderated by Dr.
Linda LeBlanc.
And I got to tell you, you know,Linda's been a mentor of mine
for, for like, The 11 years I'vebeen in the field and I'm such a
fanboy.
It's so intimidating have tofollow her after that.
And I was just appreciative thatyou went first before me on
that.
(01:42):
It is,
Callie (01:42):
it's a nerve wracking.
And when Linda tells you to dosomething, you do it.
And the whole time I was hopingthat I did exactly what she was
hoping we would do.
It was, it was a fun timetogether.
Jonathan (01:53):
You did, and you so wonderfully represented, uh,
Mosaic and, I mean, all thetopics we're going to dive into,
that are so relevant, today inour field.
Let's start though with like,what does compassionate care
mean to you?
Callie (02:07):
Yeah, definitely a hot topic in our field right now,
seems like we are all talkingabout it and still very much at
the beginning stages of figuringout what compassionate care
means, uh, how we train thoseskills and the impact that it
might have on those that we'reworking with.
what I do think we can probablyall agree on at this point is
(02:31):
that compassionate care isreally important and, and
deserves our focus.
I'm glad we're chatting aboutit.
When I think about compassionatecare, I most often start to
reflect on some of my own pastmistakes, and there are many.
I also think about all the waysthat I've grown as a
professional, and hopefully forthe better.
(02:52):
at this point in my career, Ihave a lot of experiences with
what is and what isn't goodcompassionate care, solely based
on my own mistakes and,hopefully some of my wins.
I'm sure that when we all kindof reflect back and think about
(03:12):
those relationships where weeither rushed the conversation,
um, didn't give the person thethoughtfulness, the attention
that they deserved, maybeattempted to problem solve
without really taking the timeto listen and understand what
they've been going through.
and when I remember doing that,I would categorize those times
(03:34):
as all mistakes that I've made.
Ultimately, I thinkcompassionate care is It's more
about us really showing up asour authentic self and just
giving other people the time andchance to do the same.
it's so very critical to giveeverybody, that we encounter
(03:57):
just that.
That's the grace to makemistakes and be human, and I
think we also need to get realcomfortable offering up our own
apologies when we make an error.
So when I think aboutcompassionate care, I'm
oftentimes thinking about it interms of how I'm connecting with
our clients, the families weserve, my colleagues.
(04:19):
And when I think about the rightway to do it, I'm thinking in
terms of giving other peoplejust the opportunity to be seen
and be heard.
And I think that in and ofitself can just make such a huge
impact.
It probably sounds reallysimple, but, it isn't or at
(04:41):
least I will say it was not forme as a 24 year old first year
BCBA.
Uh, I can recall.
Unfortunately, the way that Ifirst viewed interventions, and
I'm not sure if the same wastrue for you and others, but the
way I first viewedinterventions, just the
frustration I felt when theyweren't implemented with
(05:02):
fidelity or even at all bycaregivers and staff, I rarely
thought that it was a me thing.
I always seem to think it was athem thing without, um, Really
considering their needs and whatwas going to work for them.
Of course, that was the wrongapproach I was taking.
but I think those early careerBCBAs and certainly for me back
(05:24):
then, I was so focused on,perfecting my selection of
treatment recommendations andprotocols, uh, and making sure
that they were within like themost complex conceptual
framework, possible reallywithout taking all the time for
(05:45):
family needs, their abilities,their preferences, and really
considering all of those thingswhen I was programming.
Quite, quite frankly, Jonathan,I think I was like on this
behavior analytic high horseand, and rarely came down, to
figure out the, the right way tobe doing things.
So, I don't know, looking backon it during those early years,
(06:07):
I think I was, an example ofwhat not to do.
And my hope is with this focuson compassionate care.
It's really going to help ourearly career clinicians avoid
many of those same mistakes thatI made.
And I'm certainly grateful forthe families, my co workers, my
(06:28):
supervisors, who all just gaveme that grace throughout my
career to make mistakes and,give me that time and space to
grow and do better.
So when you ask what iscompassionate care?
What does that really mean forus?
Um, I think it's just aboutlistening to another person's
story, really hearing them,understanding the impact that
(06:51):
their history has on theirneeds.
How their current, needs rollinto their desired outcome, and
ultimately trying to recognizethat we're all humans and we're
just doing our best.
I really am excited, that ourfield is finally making a more
concerted effort towardsimproving in this area, setting
(07:15):
our clinicians up for success,and...
You know, while, while makingcertain that our BCBAs are
really ready to do the very bestwork possible as they enter the
workforce, um, which of courseis so important, I think
arguably what might be morecritical is the impact that that
(07:35):
then has on the people thatwe're, we're supporting.
So.
The ongoing conversation aboutcompassionate care is one that
is completely necessary.
I'm just hopeful for what itmeans for, for our field and in
the future of our services.
Jonathan (07:51):
Yeah.
to really pinpoint somethinghere that feels important,
Callie, is, you know, in myexperience, and I'm not a BCBA,
um, but when something doesn'tgo right, with, a client, or
with a family, it's rarely, Imean it can happen, but it's
rarely that it's cause the BCBAdidn't know the science or
didn't have all the right goalsor wasn't making progress
(08:11):
quickly enough or any of thosethings that are related to the
quote unquote clinical practice.
I feel it's much more commonthat there's something that was
broken in the therapeuticrelationship.
Yes.
that then cause concern and allthe downstream impacts that that
had.
And so I totally agree with youon this importance.
And I want to maybe bring thisback to your PhD, which is, I
(08:31):
understand was on motivationalinterviewing.
and tell me some more aboutwhat's the relationship between
motivational interviewing andcompassionate care.
Yeah.
Callie (08:40):
Oh, my gosh.
I'm so glad that you asked that.
And I completely agree with whatyou said in terms of the
mistakes we've made or whenthere's times of heightened
emotion, it just goes back topotentially the relationship
being damaged or not havingspent the time to create it in
the first place.
And I am so glad that you askedabout motivational interviewing.
(09:02):
I'm clearly very excited aboutit, and I think most people are
probably ready to toss theirdissertation topic out the
window, never revisit it again.
but I am on the opposite end ofthat spectrum.
I am ready to shout it from therooftops and just get everyone
as excited about it as I am.
at this point in time we knowthat compassionate care is kind
(09:24):
of this broad term that isrelatively new to behavior
analysis.
We're just starting to get ourfeet wet with it.
And so as a field, we seem tooften think that other
disciplines may not have it allfigured out.
Maybe we see them as lesseffective, less data driven than
behavior analysis, and Imentioned before that behavior
(09:48):
analytic high horse, and I thinkit probably extends to this
point as well, but otherdisciplines have so much to
offer us, and I, I think that weshould probably start paying
some attention, in otherdisciplines, other helping
professions, their cliniciansare specifically trained on how
to build rapport, uh, How tolisten empathically, how to
(10:10):
connect in ways that we inbehavior analysis simply have
not yet mastered, um, butthey've been doing it for
decades.
So, motivational interviewing isan evidence based approach that
all of these other helpingprofessions, psychology,
counseling, Nursing, socialwork, dentists, medical doctors,
(10:34):
they're all being trained to usemotivational interviewing in
their clinical practice as partof their educational curriculum.
We as a field right now arebehind in that respect and so
many of these other disciplinesspend a full semester or more
simply teaching skills relatedto rapport building and
(10:54):
reflective listening.
It is just a really excitingapproach for me to consider
because I, when I think about mycareer, the majority of my most
young memories are, of course,those that are related to
awesome progress with clientsand you can't ever forget those,
but many of them are alsorelated to those significant
(11:18):
challenges, with familyinteraction and I can at least
reflect and know how underprepared I was for those
challenges.
And I just see so much of that,with many of the BCBAs that I
work with.
So this opportunity, To adopt anapproach like motivational
interviewing in our graduateprograms, in our practicum work,
(11:43):
in our ongoing supervision, Ithink is just, going to be such
a huge benefit to clinicians tonot only equip them with the
skills to make their job easier,but more importantly, equip them
with skills needed to reallyimprove themselves.
that clinical rapport and thoserelationships.
I mentioned that themotivational interviewing skills
(12:06):
can be taught across a semesteror longer.
So there is just, so much outthere.
It's not just one teeny tinytoolbox to be used.
Uh, and so the wide range ofspecific skills within
motivational interviewing Can ofcourse be practiced, they can be
measured, they can be tracked,and there's already just decades
(12:27):
of research to support its use,which is so super cool.
a lot of people want to know,okay, well, how would we
describe it in behavior analyticterms?
How is this going to resonatewith behavior analysts?
and I guess the easiest way isto just, look at it as behaviors
that we're going to engage in.
So a communicative.
approach that really sets theoccasion for the person we're
(12:52):
talking to, to informationshare, and ultimately sets the
occasion for them to engage inbehavior change.
So when I think about the onefirst, and best easiest approach
for motivational interviewing,That has at least served me
well, is when you're sittingdown with a parent before giving
(13:16):
advice, uh, before trying todirect the conversation or, um,
Even moving on before a parentis ready, just simply reflecting
back to them what you've heardand pause, like really pause,
um, sit in that discomfort, givethem the, the time and space.
and this alone, what I havefound can open up the floor for
(13:39):
them to feel comfortable sharingeven more, um, has always been
useful in diffusing conflict.
building rapport if you don'thave any yet, um, repairing a
damaged relationship.
So, you know, we as behavioranalysts, again, may be a little
wary of borrowing something fromanother field, but we're all
(14:02):
about gathering information thatcan serve to guide our decision
making.
So if we're able to engage inthe behaviors associated with
motivational interviewing, whatthe research, in this area tells
us is that clients are going tofeel more comfortable sharing
information related tochallenges, related to their
(14:23):
goals for service.
using this approach alsoincreases consistency with which
they attend meetings and clientsthat have clinicians that use
this approach.
They also report in research,improved rapport and overall
satisfaction with services.
so I think it's just so easy tosee how these things could have
(14:45):
a huge impact on our appliedwork.
of course I can share somearticles with you.
You can drop them in later forlisteners to start to explore
it.
But, um, I'm just really hopefulthat.
With some extra dissemination,some extra learning, the field
is going to start to considermotivational interviewing as one
(15:06):
potential solution for, for someof our shortcomings in the area
of compassionate care.
Jonathan (15:12):
I would love to drop those links in the show notes.
And this is something thatalmost is like a duh, right?
I mean, as you point out, Somany other professions from
psychologists to social workersto dentists to others, are
taught this in grad school andbeyond.
And, we'll have to come back to,why has this not yet happened
for our field?
But I think it's part of thisrealization you're describing of
that importance in compassionatecare of starting first with
(15:34):
listening and building therelationship.
And that's where so much of thepower is, you know, this,
there's this little, this isprobably not at all related to
motivational interviewing, butone of the most profound things
I learned early in my careernumber one, not just responding,
but like listening to reflectback as you describe what you
heard.
And number two, instead ofsaying, you told me, and then
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,it's just saying, I heard, and
(15:57):
then I would describe what theyheard.
And then I play, did I get thatright?
Yep.
How would you care?
Callie (16:03):
What an opportunity to clarify.
there's times where we may notbe listening.
Well, there's times whereparents have so much on their
mind that they're wanting to, toshare with us.
And, because of that, maybethey've not been as clear as
they, they want to.
And the example you gave wasjust such, um, a perfect one of.
How to reflect back and ask forthat clarification.
(16:24):
So that was
Jonathan (16:25):
awesome.
Well, so then let's pivot alittle.
No surprise.
This is an extraordinary stat,Callie, but your organization,
Mosaic Pediatric Therapy,remember 25 clinics, what I read
in the intro, 100 BCBAs.
You have a net promoter scorefrom your clients of 85.
And let me just put in contexthow powerful this first, to
measure the net promoter score.
It's a really easy one questionsurvey on a scale of one to 10.
(16:49):
How likely would you be torecommend us to your family and
friends.
And your client gives you arating.
and here's how it's calculated.
You take the, number of peoplewho are raving fans, that is who
scored a nine or 10, you takethat percentage, then you
subtract out the percentage ofpeople who rated you a one
(17:11):
through six.
so in other words, The nines andtens are net promoters.
The one through six are netdetractors, and the sevens and
eights are a push.
And so you subtract these twoscores and it gives a score
between negative 100 and 100.
And by the way, listeners arethinking, well, Jonathan, a
seven or eight is like reallygood.
Even a six, five or six is stillpretty good.
And yes, it's really good.
(17:32):
But like coming back to thisquestion, how likely are you to
recommend us to a family orfriend, you got to be super
psyched, right?
These are the people that aregoing out on social media and
telling other families and inthe parent group.
So like, this is a reallyimportant stat.
So the score goes from negative100 to 100.
I think the healthcare industryoverall rates a negative six
generally score above zero isgood or is decent.
(17:54):
the Walt Disney company gets, Ithink in the thirties, Ritz
Carlton and Google getting likethe.
50s.
Okay.
So now we're thinking about likereally powerful brands and you
scored at Mosaic PediatricTherapy an 85.
That is simply unbelievable.
So impressive.
So Callie, like what are the topcouple of things you've done at
Mosaic to achieve
Callie (18:12):
that?
Oh, thanks, Jonathan.
I appreciate the intro to what anet promoter score is.
Cause I think it's a little newto our field generally.
And we're just starting to lookat it as an outcome measure and,
and how we're, reallyunderstanding what we're doing
and how well we're doing it.
Yeah, we're so excited about it.
we're excited that our familiesare feeling good about the
(18:35):
services that they're receiving.
Just for some context, we askfamilies twice per year to
provide us with feedback ontheir experience, how they think
we're doing, ways in which wecan improve.
And of course, the net promoterscore question, as you just
described it, um, you know, welook at this feedback across
each clinic and of course acrosseach BCBA.
(18:56):
Of course, share thatinformation with them.
So we're really getting into thenitty gritty and trying to pay
close attention to what might beimpacting a parent's experience.
I actually recently asked ourclinical directors what they
feel like contributes to ourfamilies feeling so good about
Mosaic.
And all of their answers were,so fun to hear, and I think they
(19:19):
enjoyed reflecting on it too.
But there were two similarthemes that kind of came out of
what they shared.
And the first was, clinicalquality.
And the second piece of it wasclear and transparent
communication.
Our RBTs, our BCBAs, ourclinical directors, Really
(19:41):
deserve so much of the credithere and they are just some of
the most Passionate andcommitted people that I know and
I'm so glad I get to work withthem and it seems that our
families are feeling the sameway, which is awesome And so to
answer your question and dive ina little bit I guess to that
(20:01):
first piece, which is the highquality services And that for us
starts on day one with an indepth and lengthy onboarding
process for both our RBTs andBCBAs.
we put a lot of time and energyinto ensuring that people are
well prepared before they aregoing into a home, into a
(20:22):
clinic, and interacting with ourfamilies.
huge shout out to our trainingand compliance team.
who makes certain that ourtraining is the very best it can
be, and sets the occasion for usto learn and really do better
every day.
They are just an awesome groupof clinicians.
(20:44):
In addition to our strongclinical quality, I think one
thing that sets Mosaic apart, orI guess makes us a little
unique, is that all of oursupport staff, whether that is
in HR, our intake department,Recruiters, billing, they have
all taken the 40 hour RBTcourse.
(21:04):
and they've also observed directsessions.
So, we do this so that everyperson at Mosaic is aware of the
mission of the organization.
And can really understand theservices that we're providing
and the impact that that mightmake, on a child's life.
So, when a parent then isspeaking to any of our
(21:24):
departments, they areinteracting with someone who
truly understands ABA servicesand why what we're doing is, is
so important.
That connection, I think, to thepurpose is what establishes a
relationship with families fromthe start.
it helps us earn their trust,demonstrates certainly our
(21:46):
respect, for them and ourcommitment to them.
So, that first part of theequation of family satisfaction,
Um, you know, of course, it'shigh quality, clinical services,
but then the second part that,we're really trying to hone in
on is the clear and transparentcommunication.
our families know what to expectfrom us.
(22:07):
We are clear in thoseexpectations, that we have for
ourselves, and we're certainlyconsistent with the
implementation of policy.
So...
Parents have enough to worryabout each and every day.
so if we can ease that just alittle bit on our end by being
honest and timely and thoughtfulin our communication, I really
(22:31):
think that makes a hugedifference.
As clinicians, sometimes we haveto share difficult news or talk
about challenging topics.
And if we always do so comingfrom it from a place of respect
and really focusing on what's inthe best interest of the family,
(22:52):
I think that that definitelyequates to satisfaction for
everyone that's involved.
More specifically, our BCBAs arereally focused on meeting a
parent where they are.
we talk about that a lot.
So, highlighting what'simportant to their quality of
life.
creating interventions that areuser friendly and really likely
(23:12):
to make, a daily impact forthem.
I am a big happy crier, um, likeall the time, and some of my
best moments at Mosaic have beenwhen parents have shared their
child's wins with us, and howmuch services have changed their
lives.
So it's just, I don't know, itis just the coolest and I'm so
(23:33):
grateful when parents arewilling to share their honest
feedback with us, um, and inways that, that we can improve
and also in the ways that, we'veenhanced their life up until
that point.
we're starting to talk moreabout outcomes in our field,
rightfully so, and the measuresof family satisfaction are just
(23:56):
such a critical component tothose strong clinical outcomes,
um, and for us are just a mainmetric of success.
So we're really pleased with thefeedback that we've received so
far.
It is
Jonathan (24:09):
extraordinary.
So Callie, you and I sharesomething.
I am a happy crier too.
In fact, oh my gosh, I'll happycry about, about, about
anything.
You know what I learned?
oh gosh, this is probably 15years ago.
Um, it's one of the newestemotions that was quote unquote
discovered through research.
It's called elevation.
Have you heard of this?
It's so powerful.
So yeah, elevation is, anemotion listed by like,
(24:32):
Witnessing actual or imaginedvirtuous acts of remarkable
moral goodness.
And it's this, you get thisaccompanying feeling of warmth
and like expansion accompaniedby appreciation.
I, and I think it's part of why,meditating and, reflecting on
the wellbeing of others.
Right.
It is so powerful.
It like opens up our heart.
I don't know.
I'm getting like super nonbehavioral.
(24:52):
I love it.
This is a real thing, right?
and look, we get to experiencethis every day.
What a powerful, just the factthat we can wake up in the
morning and have this kind ofimpact and you know, what's
really cool, love that you haveall of your, administrative
operations team go through theRBT training and witness
sessions.
That must just create so muchempathy across your teams.
(25:16):
And I mean, no surprise.
You're also Mosaic as Iunderstand in the top 5 percent
nationally of employeesatisfaction.
So like, let me ask the samequestion as, as the NPS go with
your clients.
pinpoint for me some of the mostimportant things you've done
organizationally to achievethat.
Callie (25:29):
Yeah.
I'm glad you shared that aboutelevation.
I'm going to go read on that.
It sounds like I resonate withit.
Well, um, all right.
so employee satisfaction, uh,gosh, our, our people are just
the best.
so glad we get to talk about itbecause, uh, it's just something
that I'm so proud of.
(25:51):
something that we put a heavyemphasis on.
I think that just a simple placeto start is that we ask for
frequent and anonymous feedbackfrom our team, because that is
what drives so many of ourdecisions, so many of our
organization wide changes.
I can think of all of ourinitiatives that we have created
(26:14):
that are a direct result of ourquarterly staff trainings and
the ideas and feedback of team.
Opening up those lines ofcommunication, I think, is how
we have a pulse on what'sneeded, how we can improve what
we're doing well, and just letsus move in that, that right
direction.
(26:35):
We also, uh, really work hard toensure strong clinical quality
because the success of ourclients is obviously the reason
that we're here.
And when clinicians feel valued,when they feel supported, when
they're able to do their job anddo it extremely well, that, that
feels good, right?
(26:56):
we have invested heavily in ourclinical support roles and
continuing education, which Ithink really allows both our
RBTs and BCBAs to, you know, dotheir job to the best of their
ability.
I know for one, when I feel likeI'm doing a good job, it, it
makes me feel good.
I have an awesome level of, ofjob satisfaction.
(27:19):
And I think that that same thingholds true for our team members.
So, um, one, asking them for,for feedback and just
transparent communication.
to making sure they have all ofthe things that they need to be
able to do their job well.
and then probably the third one.
And what I would say is mostimportant and what I think has
(27:41):
the most impact, on our cultureand staff satisfaction is having
a mission statement, and a setof values that our team
resonates with.
Every clinical, uh, operationaland research related decision we
make goes back to Mosaic'svalues and Mosaic's mission, and
(28:04):
I just think that this creates aculture, in which our staff know
exactly what to expect from usas leaders, and there's also
this cool shared vision thateach team member knows how
they're a part of it, knows theimpact that they're making.
Like you said, whether that isthe revenue cycle department,
(28:26):
the intake team, HR support, ourreal estate team, the RBTs in
our clinic, the mission andvalues are the same for every
person.
And the responsibility then forthe outcomes of our clients is
shared.
You know, I, I do a lot ofinterviews, and at the end of
(28:47):
those interviews, I'm sure youget the same question.
But so many candidates just askme why, um, why I stay at
Mosaic, why it's the place I'vechosen.
and my answer is always supereasy.
It just...
is always about the people.
I, I just like them.
they care so deeply about thework that they're doing.
They care so deeply about oneanother.
(29:10):
It just is easy to go to workevery day when you see that
commitment to excellence.
And I guess it's even betterwhen you're having some fun
while you're doing it.
Jonathan (29:24):
Yeah.
At our heart, we're a humanservices business, right?
So it's our people or it'snothing.
you're so right to pinpoint theimportance of just like living
into your values and havingeveryone across the organization
speak, making sure those valuesresonate.
And then, couching everythingyou do in terms of those values.
It's, it sounds basic, but it'sreally easy that that can become
an afterthought at manyorganizations.
(29:46):
So I appreciate how you'vedescribed that.
I want to pivot just a littlebit and, and ask you about, your
time on APBA's board and whatdid you learn from your
experience as a director?
Callie (29:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
so APBA is.
It's just an organization that Ihave a great fondness for.
Jim Johnston was my graduatementor at Auburn, the founding
president of the organization,and I am incredibly grateful for
his guidance and sponsorship.
(30:20):
There's this saying that if youare the smartest person in the
room, you need to find a newroom.
well APBA was my new room.
I was surrounded by just some ofthe brightest, Most
compassionate, committed people,Gina Green, Charna Mintz, um,
Mary Worden, Patricia Wright.
(30:41):
It was just my absolute pleasureto get to listen to them and
collaborate with them.
the board is often made up ofindividuals who have Different
backgrounds in business, um,OBM, operations, clinical,
academia, and they all areworking together to build on one
(31:03):
another's strengths just tofigure out the best ways to, to
push our field forward.
of course, you and I wererecently on the panel together
at APBA, and I don't know aboutyou, but I just left Seattle
feeling...
So energized.
I truly believed that, APBA isat just the forefront of a lot
(31:24):
of the really important changesthat that we are excited about,
that we're ready to see.
and I'm confident in the boardand Dr.
Sellers moving us towards that,you know, over the next year.
for those listeners who areearly in, in their career, I
just think that APBA has so muchto offer in terms of resources,
(31:44):
mentorship, support.
and I'm also really pumped forAPBA in New Orleans next year.
I hope you're going, maybe wecan get on a panel together
again, since that was so muchfun last time.
Aved,
Jonathan (31:55):
yes.
I am in like.
Can I tell you that was myfirst, Seattle was my first APBA
conference, like, isn't thatcrazy?
and so I was like, same as you,like walking on air as I was
flying back home afterwards.
Um, but you know, it was of themany, many highlights.
There's a session at the verybeginning that's called, I think
it's literally called like howto conference.
(32:17):
But like how to get the most outof your conference and I, you
know, what's amazing is if I hadlearned that early in my career,
like I would have gotten so muchmore out of conferences rather
than just like hanging out withpeople in the parties and
whatever, maybe seeing a coupleof sessions.
it was so intentional.
I freaking Loved it.
So yes, I'm in for New Orleansand every APBA conference here
(32:39):
forward.
Um, but Callie, tell me what'sone thing every ABA business
owner should start doing and onething they should stop doing.
Callie (32:47):
Um, well, we've talked a little bit about this today, but
I would say one thing that Everybusiness owner should start
doing is just listen to yourpeople, listen to the families
that you serve, ask for feedbackoften, respond to it.
Asking for honest feedback canreally be scary, but it is
(33:09):
definitely the best indicator ofwhat you're doing well, what
ways you can improve.
And so that is what I hope thatpeople start doing so that we
can be really thoughtful and howwe're serving our staff and
serving our clients.
Uh, one thing that they shouldstop doing, let's see.
(33:29):
I think I would encouragebusiness owners and leaders
within organizations to, avoid.
Treating staff or families like,they're a number, on a
spreadsheet, a dollar in anaccount.
I don't see that often, but Ithink that's one surefire way to
lead to some dissatisfaction onall accounts.
(33:50):
if your clinicians are doing.
what they need to clinically forthe benefit of their clients.
Then everything else falls intoplace.
good quality services make for ahealthy business.
So, our take on it is, justinvesting in your people is the
best way to continue to grow andkeep everyone satisfied.
Jonathan (34:12):
Amen.
And if you're going to see themas a dollar in an account, Don't
make it like an expense on theP& L to be minimized.
Make it an asset on the balancesheet to be invested in.
Exactly to your point.
I love it, Callie.
Callie, where can people findyou online?
Oh,
Callie (34:28):
all right.
Yeah.
Um, so I am very active onLinkedIn.
Welcome all new connections andmessages.
Um, you can also of course findmore about me and some of the
other things we've talked about,on Mosaic's website, which is
mosaictherapy.
com.
also if anyone wants to mentorme on how to be more savvy on
(34:49):
social media, I will happilytrade them for professional
mentorship.
So, uh, I'm open for businesswhen it comes to that.
Jonathan (34:57):
Oh, I love it.
I mean, social media just is apart of who we are these days,
right?
Like LinkedIn serves as theresume as much as a resume or CV
serves as the resume.
Um, oh, that's cool.
And you are a forever humblelearner, clearly seeking
mentorship and guidance.
That's awesome, Callie.
Okay.
Are you ready for our hot takerapid fire questions?
(35:19):
Okay, I'm ready.
All right, you're on yourdeathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Oof,
Callie (35:28):
I hope that I am remembered for being happy.
I hope that there are some, realmeaningful connections with
other people that I've made.
But, you know, mostly when I'mon my deathbed, I hope I'm just
thinking, Damn, that was fun.
Jonathan (35:50):
Damn, that was fun.
That sounds like a gravestonepiece, dude.
That's like, what's your mostimportant self care practice?
Oh,
Callie (35:59):
um, all right.
So in, in my household, we callit no talking time.
So if I am in A less thanstellar mood, my partner tells
me to go have no talking time,and that usually helps, or I
don't know, maybe it's just hisway of, uh, avoiding me, but in,
(36:22):
in all seriousness, just beingquiet, it's Um, being still
sitting outside, just slowingdown is usually the trick for,
for how I'm able to practiceself care.
Jonathan (36:36):
Oh, I think I'm going to institute a no talking time
at the Mueller household.
And that's something I need.
My wife, Kim would, uh, wouldaffirm that Jonathan could be a
no talking time.
Um, Callie, what's your favoritesong and or music genre?
Callie (36:51):
Okay, So, uh, Bruce Springsteen's Thunder Road is,
is one of my favorites.
Um, I grew up listening to him.
My parents took me to hisconcerts as a kid.
I have always just appreciatedthat blue collar storytelling.
Um, I think something about itjust, I don't know, resonates.
(37:12):
It's good for the soul.
I just recently saw him inconcert a couple of weeks ago,
so it's, it's been on my mind.
How
Jonathan (37:18):
was he?
Callie (37:19):
It was awesome.
Jonathan (37:23):
He literally is the boss.
Is he not?
He
Callie (37:25):
so is.
Um, actually this is funny.
So, uh, my partner Caleb got mea t shirt, that actually has an
old school picture of, Bruce onit.
And it says the only boss of me.
Shut up!
Jonathan (37:39):
My gosh, I love it.
Can I tell you Thunder Roadrecalls a very specific time in
my life right after I graduatedI was in living in Chicago and I
had a good buddy Andy Jesson wholike turned me on I knew that I
had already known the bossclearly but like I didn't know
Thunder Road and he helped meunderstand what a beautiful Song
and story it was and I'm gonnaread I actually just pulled it
(38:00):
up as he mentioned it Butthere's this verse that goes you
could hide beneath your coversand study your pain make crosses
from your lovers throw roses intheir brain Waste your summer
praying in vain for a savior torise from these streets.
Isn't that such a beautiful,representation of being the
moment?
Oh! Yes! Yes! Well, yes, Callie,well said.
(38:21):
Thank you.
Oh, I love that.
Um, what's one thing you'd tellyour 18 year old self?
Callie (38:27):
Oof.
18.
I would say that your 20s aregonna be good.
your 30s are definitely better,and at this point, I am
absolutely planning for my 40sto, like, exceed all
expectations.
I'm excited about what thefuture holds, new ways I'm gonna
(38:48):
be challenged and grow, so Ithink I would tell 18 year old
me, uh, it just keeps gettingbetter.
Jonathan (38:56):
Ah, it's so true that has been exactly my experience
as well.
that resonates Callie.
Well, you can only wear onestyle of footwear.
What would it be?
Can
Callie (39:06):
I go barefoot?
Is that an option?
Yeah.
All right.
Bare feet.
I would select no shoes at allif that's my option.
Jonathan (39:15):
Ah, I love it.
Hey, Callie, thank you so much.
This is such a fun conversation.
I appreciate you coming on.
Callie (39:22):
You are welcome.
It was a blast.
I'd be happy to come backanytime, Jonathan.
My guest today is Dr.
Callie Plattner.
Callie's been a lover oflearning in all things behavior
analysis since she startedworking in group homes when she
was 18.
She's been a BCBA for 15 yearsand is the VP of Clinical
operations for Mosaic PediatricTherapy, a clinic-based ABA
provider, North Carolina,Virginia, and Tennessee, with
over a hundred BCBAs in 25clinics.
(00:51):
She served as two-time pastpresident of NCABA, serving the
board of directors for APBA.
And as a subject matter expertfor the BACB and CASP, and
Callie is a published author ofbook chapters and research
related to parent experience,staff training, and how the two
intersect.
Callie, welcome to the pod.
And is there anything you don'tdo, dude?
Callie (01:11):
Hey, Jonathan.
Um, thanks for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
And also really grateful for allof those amazing experiences
that I've had so far.
Jonathan (01:21):
I love the gratitude.
You know, Callie, you and I gotto meet, uh, we were both on a
panel that was moderated by Dr.
Linda LeBlanc.
And I got to tell you, you know,Linda's been a mentor of mine
for, for like, The 11 years I'vebeen in the field and I'm such a
fanboy.
It's so intimidating have tofollow her after that.
And I was just appreciative thatyou went first before me on
that.
(01:42):
It is,
Callie (01:42):
it's a nerve wracking.
And when Linda tells you to dosomething, you do it.
And the whole time I was hopingthat I did exactly what she was
hoping we would do.
It was, it was a fun timetogether.
Jonathan (01:53):
You did, and you so wonderfully represented, uh,
Mosaic and, I mean, all thetopics we're going to dive into,
that are so relevant, today inour field.
Let's start though with like,what does compassionate care
mean to you?
Callie (02:07):
Yeah, definitely a hot topic in our field right now,
seems like we are all talkingabout it and still very much at
the beginning stages of figuringout what compassionate care
means, uh, how we train thoseskills and the impact that it
might have on those that we'reworking with.
what I do think we can probablyall agree on at this point is
(02:31):
that compassionate care isreally important and, and
deserves our focus.
I'm glad we're chatting aboutit.
When I think about compassionatecare, I most often start to
reflect on some of my own pastmistakes, and there are many.
I also think about all the waysthat I've grown as a
professional, and hopefully forthe better.
(02:52):
at this point in my career, Ihave a lot of experiences with
what is and what isn't goodcompassionate care, solely based
on my own mistakes and,hopefully some of my wins.
I'm sure that when we all kindof reflect back and think about
(03:12):
those relationships where weeither rushed the conversation,
um, didn't give the person thethoughtfulness, the attention
that they deserved, maybeattempted to problem solve
without really taking the timeto listen and understand what
they've been going through.
and when I remember doing that,I would categorize those times
(03:34):
as all mistakes that I've made.
Ultimately, I thinkcompassionate care is It's more
about us really showing up asour authentic self and just
giving other people the time andchance to do the same.
it's so very critical to giveeverybody, that we encounter
(03:57):
just that.
That's the grace to makemistakes and be human, and I
think we also need to get realcomfortable offering up our own
apologies when we make an error.
So when I think aboutcompassionate care, I'm
oftentimes thinking about it interms of how I'm connecting with
our clients, the families weserve, my colleagues.
(04:19):
And when I think about the rightway to do it, I'm thinking in
terms of giving other peoplejust the opportunity to be seen
and be heard.
And I think that in and ofitself can just make such a huge
impact.
It probably sounds reallysimple, but, it isn't or at
(04:41):
least I will say it was not forme as a 24 year old first year
BCBA.
Uh, I can recall.
Unfortunately, the way that Ifirst viewed interventions, and
I'm not sure if the same wastrue for you and others, but the
way I first viewedinterventions, just the
frustration I felt when theyweren't implemented with
(05:02):
fidelity or even at all bycaregivers and staff, I rarely
thought that it was a me thing.
I always seem to think it was athem thing without, um, Really
considering their needs and whatwas going to work for them.
Of course, that was the wrongapproach I was taking.
but I think those early careerBCBAs and certainly for me back
(05:24):
then, I was so focused on,perfecting my selection of
treatment recommendations andprotocols, uh, and making sure
that they were within like themost complex conceptual
framework, possible reallywithout taking all the time for
(05:45):
family needs, their abilities,their preferences, and really
considering all of those thingswhen I was programming.
Quite, quite frankly, Jonathan,I think I was like on this
behavior analytic high horseand, and rarely came down, to
figure out the, the right way tobe doing things.
So, I don't know, looking backon it during those early years,
(06:07):
I think I was, an example ofwhat not to do.
And my hope is with this focuson compassionate care.
It's really going to help ourearly career clinicians avoid
many of those same mistakes thatI made.
And I'm certainly grateful forthe families, my co workers, my
(06:28):
supervisors, who all just gaveme that grace throughout my
career to make mistakes and,give me that time and space to
grow and do better.
So when you ask what iscompassionate care?
What does that really mean forus?
Um, I think it's just aboutlistening to another person's
story, really hearing them,understanding the impact that
(06:51):
their history has on theirneeds.
How their current, needs rollinto their desired outcome, and
ultimately trying to recognizethat we're all humans and we're
just doing our best.
I really am excited, that ourfield is finally making a more
concerted effort towardsimproving in this area, setting
(07:15):
our clinicians up for success,and...
You know, while, while makingcertain that our BCBAs are
really ready to do the very bestwork possible as they enter the
workforce, um, which of courseis so important, I think
arguably what might be morecritical is the impact that that
(07:35):
then has on the people thatwe're, we're supporting.
So.
The ongoing conversation aboutcompassionate care is one that
is completely necessary.
I'm just hopeful for what itmeans for, for our field and in
the future of our services.
Jonathan (07:51):
Yeah.
to really pinpoint somethinghere that feels important,
Callie, is, you know, in myexperience, and I'm not a BCBA,
um, but when something doesn'tgo right, with, a client, or
with a family, it's rarely, Imean it can happen, but it's
rarely that it's cause the BCBAdidn't know the science or
didn't have all the right goalsor wasn't making progress
(08:11):
quickly enough or any of thosethings that are related to the
quote unquote clinical practice.
I feel it's much more commonthat there's something that was
broken in the therapeuticrelationship.
Yes.
that then cause concern and allthe downstream impacts that that
had.
And so I totally agree with youon this importance.
And I want to maybe bring thisback to your PhD, which is, I
(08:31):
understand was on motivationalinterviewing.
and tell me some more aboutwhat's the relationship between
motivational interviewing andcompassionate care.
Yeah.
Callie (08:40):
Oh, my gosh.
I'm so glad that you asked that.
And I completely agree with whatyou said in terms of the
mistakes we've made or whenthere's times of heightened
emotion, it just goes back topotentially the relationship
being damaged or not havingspent the time to create it in
the first place.
And I am so glad that you askedabout motivational interviewing.
(09:02):
I'm clearly very excited aboutit, and I think most people are
probably ready to toss theirdissertation topic out the
window, never revisit it again.
but I am on the opposite end ofthat spectrum.
I am ready to shout it from therooftops and just get everyone
as excited about it as I am.
at this point in time we knowthat compassionate care is kind
(09:24):
of this broad term that isrelatively new to behavior
analysis.
We're just starting to get ourfeet wet with it.
And so as a field, we seem tooften think that other
disciplines may not have it allfigured out.
Maybe we see them as lesseffective, less data driven than
behavior analysis, and Imentioned before that behavior
(09:48):
analytic high horse, and I thinkit probably extends to this
point as well, but otherdisciplines have so much to
offer us, and I, I think that weshould probably start paying
some attention, in otherdisciplines, other helping
professions, their cliniciansare specifically trained on how
to build rapport, uh, How tolisten empathically, how to
(10:10):
connect in ways that we inbehavior analysis simply have
not yet mastered, um, butthey've been doing it for
decades.
So, motivational interviewing isan evidence based approach that
all of these other helpingprofessions, psychology,
counseling, Nursing, socialwork, dentists, medical doctors,
(10:34):
they're all being trained to usemotivational interviewing in
their clinical practice as partof their educational curriculum.
We as a field right now arebehind in that respect and so
many of these other disciplinesspend a full semester or more
simply teaching skills relatedto rapport building and
(10:54):
reflective listening.
It is just a really excitingapproach for me to consider
because I, when I think about mycareer, the majority of my most
young memories are, of course,those that are related to
awesome progress with clientsand you can't ever forget those,
but many of them are alsorelated to those significant
(11:18):
challenges, with familyinteraction and I can at least
reflect and know how underprepared I was for those
challenges.
And I just see so much of that,with many of the BCBAs that I
work with.
So this opportunity, To adopt anapproach like motivational
interviewing in our graduateprograms, in our practicum work,
(11:43):
in our ongoing supervision, Ithink is just, going to be such
a huge benefit to clinicians tonot only equip them with the
skills to make their job easier,but more importantly, equip them
with skills needed to reallyimprove themselves.
that clinical rapport and thoserelationships.
I mentioned that themotivational interviewing skills
(12:06):
can be taught across a semesteror longer.
So there is just, so much outthere.
It's not just one teeny tinytoolbox to be used.
Uh, and so the wide range ofspecific skills within
motivational interviewing Can ofcourse be practiced, they can be
measured, they can be tracked,and there's already just decades
(12:27):
of research to support its use,which is so super cool.
a lot of people want to know,okay, well, how would we
describe it in behavior analyticterms?
How is this going to resonatewith behavior analysts?
and I guess the easiest way isto just, look at it as behaviors
that we're going to engage in.
So a communicative.
approach that really sets theoccasion for the person we're
(12:52):
talking to, to informationshare, and ultimately sets the
occasion for them to engage inbehavior change.
So when I think about the onefirst, and best easiest approach
for motivational interviewing,That has at least served me
well, is when you're sittingdown with a parent before giving
(13:16):
advice, uh, before trying todirect the conversation or, um,
Even moving on before a parentis ready, just simply reflecting
back to them what you've heardand pause, like really pause,
um, sit in that discomfort, givethem the, the time and space.
and this alone, what I havefound can open up the floor for
(13:39):
them to feel comfortable sharingeven more, um, has always been
useful in diffusing conflict.
building rapport if you don'thave any yet, um, repairing a
damaged relationship.
So, you know, we as behavioranalysts, again, may be a little
wary of borrowing something fromanother field, but we're all
(14:02):
about gathering information thatcan serve to guide our decision
making.
So if we're able to engage inthe behaviors associated with
motivational interviewing, whatthe research, in this area tells
us is that clients are going tofeel more comfortable sharing
information related tochallenges, related to their
(14:23):
goals for service.
using this approach alsoincreases consistency with which
they attend meetings and clientsthat have clinicians that use
this approach.
They also report in research,improved rapport and overall
satisfaction with services.
so I think it's just so easy tosee how these things could have
(14:45):
a huge impact on our appliedwork.
of course I can share somearticles with you.
You can drop them in later forlisteners to start to explore
it.
But, um, I'm just really hopefulthat.
With some extra dissemination,some extra learning, the field
is going to start to considermotivational interviewing as one
(15:06):
potential solution for, for someof our shortcomings in the area
of compassionate care.
Jonathan (15:12):
I would love to drop those links in the show notes.
And this is something thatalmost is like a duh, right?
I mean, as you point out, Somany other professions from
psychologists to social workersto dentists to others, are
taught this in grad school andbeyond.
And, we'll have to come back to,why has this not yet happened
for our field?
But I think it's part of thisrealization you're describing of
that importance in compassionatecare of starting first with
(15:34):
listening and building therelationship.
And that's where so much of thepower is, you know, this,
there's this little, this isprobably not at all related to
motivational interviewing, butone of the most profound things
I learned early in my careernumber one, not just responding,
but like listening to reflectback as you describe what you
heard.
And number two, instead ofsaying, you told me, and then
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,it's just saying, I heard, and
(15:57):
then I would describe what theyheard.
And then I play, did I get thatright?
Yep.
How would you care?
Callie (16:03):
What an opportunity to clarify.
there's times where we may notbe listening.
Well, there's times whereparents have so much on their
mind that they're wanting to, toshare with us.
And, because of that, maybethey've not been as clear as
they, they want to.
And the example you gave wasjust such, um, a perfect one of.
How to reflect back and ask forthat clarification.
(16:24):
So that was
Jonathan (16:25):
awesome.
Well, so then let's pivot alittle.
No surprise.
This is an extraordinary stat,Callie, but your organization,
Mosaic Pediatric Therapy,remember 25 clinics, what I read
in the intro, 100 BCBAs.
You have a net promoter scorefrom your clients of 85.
And let me just put in contexthow powerful this first, to
measure the net promoter score.
It's a really easy one questionsurvey on a scale of one to 10.
(16:49):
How likely would you be torecommend us to your family and
friends.
And your client gives you arating.
and here's how it's calculated.
You take the, number of peoplewho are raving fans, that is who
scored a nine or 10, you takethat percentage, then you
subtract out the percentage ofpeople who rated you a one
(17:11):
through six.
so in other words, The nines andtens are net promoters.
The one through six are netdetractors, and the sevens and
eights are a push.
And so you subtract these twoscores and it gives a score
between negative 100 and 100.
And by the way, listeners arethinking, well, Jonathan, a
seven or eight is like reallygood.
Even a six, five or six is stillpretty good.
And yes, it's really good.
(17:32):
But like coming back to thisquestion, how likely are you to
recommend us to a family orfriend, you got to be super
psyched, right?
These are the people that aregoing out on social media and
telling other families and inthe parent group.
So like, this is a reallyimportant stat.
So the score goes from negative100 to 100.
I think the healthcare industryoverall rates a negative six
generally score above zero isgood or is decent.
(17:54):
the Walt Disney company gets, Ithink in the thirties, Ritz
Carlton and Google getting likethe.
50s.
Okay.
So now we're thinking about likereally powerful brands and you
scored at Mosaic PediatricTherapy an 85.
That is simply unbelievable.
So impressive.
So Callie, like what are the topcouple of things you've done at
Mosaic to achieve
Callie (18:12):
that?
Oh, thanks, Jonathan.
I appreciate the intro to what anet promoter score is.
Cause I think it's a little newto our field generally.
And we're just starting to lookat it as an outcome measure and,
and how we're, reallyunderstanding what we're doing
and how well we're doing it.
Yeah, we're so excited about it.
we're excited that our familiesare feeling good about the
(18:35):
services that they're receiving.
Just for some context, we askfamilies twice per year to
provide us with feedback ontheir experience, how they think
we're doing, ways in which wecan improve.
And of course, the net promoterscore question, as you just
described it, um, you know, welook at this feedback across
each clinic and of course acrosseach BCBA.
(18:56):
Of course, share thatinformation with them.
So we're really getting into thenitty gritty and trying to pay
close attention to what might beimpacting a parent's experience.
I actually recently asked ourclinical directors what they
feel like contributes to ourfamilies feeling so good about
Mosaic.
And all of their answers were,so fun to hear, and I think they
(19:19):
enjoyed reflecting on it too.
But there were two similarthemes that kind of came out of
what they shared.
And the first was, clinicalquality.
And the second piece of it wasclear and transparent
communication.
Our RBTs, our BCBAs, ourclinical directors, Really
(19:41):
deserve so much of the credithere and they are just some of
the most Passionate andcommitted people that I know and
I'm so glad I get to work withthem and it seems that our
families are feeling the sameway, which is awesome And so to
answer your question and dive ina little bit I guess to that
(20:01):
first piece, which is the highquality services And that for us
starts on day one with an indepth and lengthy onboarding
process for both our RBTs andBCBAs.
we put a lot of time and energyinto ensuring that people are
well prepared before they aregoing into a home, into a
(20:22):
clinic, and interacting with ourfamilies.
huge shout out to our trainingand compliance team.
who makes certain that ourtraining is the very best it can
be, and sets the occasion for usto learn and really do better
every day.
They are just an awesome groupof clinicians.
(20:44):
In addition to our strongclinical quality, I think one
thing that sets Mosaic apart, orI guess makes us a little
unique, is that all of oursupport staff, whether that is
in HR, our intake department,Recruiters, billing, they have
all taken the 40 hour RBTcourse.
(21:04):
and they've also observed directsessions.
So, we do this so that everyperson at Mosaic is aware of the
mission of the organization.
And can really understand theservices that we're providing
and the impact that that mightmake, on a child's life.
So, when a parent then isspeaking to any of our
(21:24):
departments, they areinteracting with someone who
truly understands ABA servicesand why what we're doing is, is
so important.
That connection, I think, to thepurpose is what establishes a
relationship with families fromthe start.
it helps us earn their trust,demonstrates certainly our
(21:46):
respect, for them and ourcommitment to them.
So, that first part of theequation of family satisfaction,
Um, you know, of course, it'shigh quality, clinical services,
but then the second part that,we're really trying to hone in
on is the clear and transparentcommunication.
our families know what to expectfrom us.
(22:07):
We are clear in thoseexpectations, that we have for
ourselves, and we're certainlyconsistent with the
implementation of policy.
So...
Parents have enough to worryabout each and every day.
so if we can ease that just alittle bit on our end by being
honest and timely and thoughtfulin our communication, I really
(22:31):
think that makes a hugedifference.
As clinicians, sometimes we haveto share difficult news or talk
about challenging topics.
And if we always do so comingfrom it from a place of respect
and really focusing on what's inthe best interest of the family,
(22:52):
I think that that definitelyequates to satisfaction for
everyone that's involved.
More specifically, our BCBAs arereally focused on meeting a
parent where they are.
we talk about that a lot.
So, highlighting what'simportant to their quality of
life.
creating interventions that areuser friendly and really likely
(23:12):
to make, a daily impact forthem.
I am a big happy crier, um, likeall the time, and some of my
best moments at Mosaic have beenwhen parents have shared their
child's wins with us, and howmuch services have changed their
lives.
So it's just, I don't know, itis just the coolest and I'm so
(23:33):
grateful when parents arewilling to share their honest
feedback with us, um, and inways that, that we can improve
and also in the ways that, we'veenhanced their life up until
that point.
we're starting to talk moreabout outcomes in our field,
rightfully so, and the measuresof family satisfaction are just
(23:56):
such a critical component tothose strong clinical outcomes,
um, and for us are just a mainmetric of success.
So we're really pleased with thefeedback that we've received so
far.
It is
Jonathan (24:09):
extraordinary.
So Callie, you and I sharesomething.
I am a happy crier too.
In fact, oh my gosh, I'll happycry about, about, about
anything.
You know what I learned?
oh gosh, this is probably 15years ago.
Um, it's one of the newestemotions that was quote unquote
discovered through research.
It's called elevation.
Have you heard of this?
It's so powerful.
So yeah, elevation is, anemotion listed by like,
(24:32):
Witnessing actual or imaginedvirtuous acts of remarkable
moral goodness.
And it's this, you get thisaccompanying feeling of warmth
and like expansion accompaniedby appreciation.
I, and I think it's part of why,meditating and, reflecting on
the wellbeing of others.
Right.
It is so powerful.
It like opens up our heart.
I don't know.
I'm getting like super nonbehavioral.
(24:52):
I love it.
This is a real thing, right?
and look, we get to experiencethis every day.
What a powerful, just the factthat we can wake up in the
morning and have this kind ofimpact and you know, what's
really cool, love that you haveall of your, administrative
operations team go through theRBT training and witness
sessions.
That must just create so muchempathy across your teams.
(25:16):
And I mean, no surprise.
You're also Mosaic as Iunderstand in the top 5 percent
nationally of employeesatisfaction.
So like, let me ask the samequestion as, as the NPS go with
your clients.
pinpoint for me some of the mostimportant things you've done
organizationally to achievethat.
Callie (25:29):
Yeah.
I'm glad you shared that aboutelevation.
I'm going to go read on that.
It sounds like I resonate withit.
Well, um, all right.
so employee satisfaction, uh,gosh, our, our people are just
the best.
so glad we get to talk about itbecause, uh, it's just something
that I'm so proud of.
(25:51):
something that we put a heavyemphasis on.
I think that just a simple placeto start is that we ask for
frequent and anonymous feedbackfrom our team, because that is
what drives so many of ourdecisions, so many of our
organization wide changes.
I can think of all of ourinitiatives that we have created
(26:14):
that are a direct result of ourquarterly staff trainings and
the ideas and feedback of team.
Opening up those lines ofcommunication, I think, is how
we have a pulse on what'sneeded, how we can improve what
we're doing well, and just letsus move in that, that right
direction.
(26:35):
We also, uh, really work hard toensure strong clinical quality
because the success of ourclients is obviously the reason
that we're here.
And when clinicians feel valued,when they feel supported, when
they're able to do their job anddo it extremely well, that, that
feels good, right?
(26:56):
we have invested heavily in ourclinical support roles and
continuing education, which Ithink really allows both our
RBTs and BCBAs to, you know, dotheir job to the best of their
ability.
I know for one, when I feel likeI'm doing a good job, it, it
makes me feel good.
I have an awesome level of, ofjob satisfaction.
(27:19):
And I think that that same thingholds true for our team members.
So, um, one, asking them for,for feedback and just
transparent communication.
to making sure they have all ofthe things that they need to be
able to do their job well.
and then probably the third one.
And what I would say is mostimportant and what I think has
(27:41):
the most impact, on our cultureand staff satisfaction is having
a mission statement, and a setof values that our team
resonates with.
Every clinical, uh, operationaland research related decision we
make goes back to Mosaic'svalues and Mosaic's mission, and
(28:04):
I just think that this creates aculture, in which our staff know
exactly what to expect from usas leaders, and there's also
this cool shared vision thateach team member knows how
they're a part of it, knows theimpact that they're making.
Like you said, whether that isthe revenue cycle department,
(28:26):
the intake team, HR support, ourreal estate team, the RBTs in
our clinic, the mission andvalues are the same for every
person.
And the responsibility then forthe outcomes of our clients is
shared.
You know, I, I do a lot ofinterviews, and at the end of
(28:47):
those interviews, I'm sure youget the same question.
But so many candidates just askme why, um, why I stay at
Mosaic, why it's the place I'vechosen.
and my answer is always supereasy.
It just...
is always about the people.
I, I just like them.
they care so deeply about thework that they're doing.
They care so deeply about oneanother.
(29:10):
It just is easy to go to workevery day when you see that
commitment to excellence.
And I guess it's even betterwhen you're having some fun
while you're doing it.
Jonathan (29:24):
Yeah.
At our heart, we're a humanservices business, right?
So it's our people or it'snothing.
you're so right to pinpoint theimportance of just like living
into your values and havingeveryone across the organization
speak, making sure those valuesresonate.
And then, couching everythingyou do in terms of those values.
It's, it sounds basic, but it'sreally easy that that can become
an afterthought at manyorganizations.
(29:46):
So I appreciate how you'vedescribed that.
I want to pivot just a littlebit and, and ask you about, your
time on APBA's board and whatdid you learn from your
experience as a director?
Callie (29:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
so APBA is.
It's just an organization that Ihave a great fondness for.
Jim Johnston was my graduatementor at Auburn, the founding
president of the organization,and I am incredibly grateful for
his guidance and sponsorship.
(30:20):
There's this saying that if youare the smartest person in the
room, you need to find a newroom.
well APBA was my new room.
I was surrounded by just some ofthe brightest, Most
compassionate, committed people,Gina Green, Charna Mintz, um,
Mary Worden, Patricia Wright.
(30:41):
It was just my absolute pleasureto get to listen to them and
collaborate with them.
the board is often made up ofindividuals who have Different
backgrounds in business, um,OBM, operations, clinical,
academia, and they all areworking together to build on one
(31:03):
another's strengths just tofigure out the best ways to, to
push our field forward.
of course, you and I wererecently on the panel together
at APBA, and I don't know aboutyou, but I just left Seattle
feeling...
So energized.
I truly believed that, APBA isat just the forefront of a lot
(31:24):
of the really important changesthat that we are excited about,
that we're ready to see.
and I'm confident in the boardand Dr.
Sellers moving us towards that,you know, over the next year.
for those listeners who areearly in, in their career, I
just think that APBA has so muchto offer in terms of resources,
(31:44):
mentorship, support.
and I'm also really pumped forAPBA in New Orleans next year.
I hope you're going, maybe wecan get on a panel together
again, since that was so muchfun last time.
Aved,
Jonathan (31:55):
yes.
I am in like.
Can I tell you that was myfirst, Seattle was my first APBA
conference, like, isn't thatcrazy?
and so I was like, same as you,like walking on air as I was
flying back home afterwards.
Um, but you know, it was of themany, many highlights.
There's a session at the verybeginning that's called, I think
it's literally called like howto conference.
(32:17):
But like how to get the most outof your conference and I, you
know, what's amazing is if I hadlearned that early in my career,
like I would have gotten so muchmore out of conferences rather
than just like hanging out withpeople in the parties and
whatever, maybe seeing a coupleof sessions.
it was so intentional.
I freaking Loved it.
So yes, I'm in for New Orleansand every APBA conference here
(32:39):
forward.
Um, but Callie, tell me what'sone thing every ABA business
owner should start doing and onething they should stop doing.
Callie (32:47):
Um, well, we've talked a little bit about this today, but
I would say one thing that Everybusiness owner should start
doing is just listen to yourpeople, listen to the families
that you serve, ask for feedbackoften, respond to it.
Asking for honest feedback canreally be scary, but it is
(33:09):
definitely the best indicator ofwhat you're doing well, what
ways you can improve.
And so that is what I hope thatpeople start doing so that we
can be really thoughtful and howwe're serving our staff and
serving our clients.
Uh, one thing that they shouldstop doing, let's see.
(33:29):
I think I would encouragebusiness owners and leaders
within organizations to, avoid.
Treating staff or families like,they're a number, on a
spreadsheet, a dollar in anaccount.
I don't see that often, but Ithink that's one surefire way to
lead to some dissatisfaction onall accounts.
(33:50):
if your clinicians are doing.
what they need to clinically forthe benefit of their clients.
Then everything else falls intoplace.
good quality services make for ahealthy business.
So, our take on it is, justinvesting in your people is the
best way to continue to grow andkeep everyone satisfied.
Jonathan (34:12):
Amen.
And if you're going to see themas a dollar in an account, Don't
make it like an expense on theP& L to be minimized.
Make it an asset on the balancesheet to be invested in.
Exactly to your point.
I love it, Callie.
Callie, where can people findyou online?
Oh,
Callie (34:28):
all right.
Yeah.
Um, so I am very active onLinkedIn.
Welcome all new connections andmessages.
Um, you can also of course findmore about me and some of the
other things we've talked about,on Mosaic's website, which is
mosaictherapy.
com.
also if anyone wants to mentorme on how to be more savvy on
(34:49):
social media, I will happilytrade them for professional
mentorship.
So, uh, I'm open for businesswhen it comes to that.
Jonathan (34:57):
Oh, I love it.
I mean, social media just is apart of who we are these days,
right?
Like LinkedIn serves as theresume as much as a resume or CV
serves as the resume.
Um, oh, that's cool.
And you are a forever humblelearner, clearly seeking
mentorship and guidance.
That's awesome, Callie.
Okay.
Are you ready for our hot takerapid fire questions?
(35:19):
Okay, I'm ready.
All right, you're on yourdeathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Oof,
Callie (35:28):
I hope that I am remembered for being happy.
I hope that there are some, realmeaningful connections with
other people that I've made.
But, you know, mostly when I'mon my deathbed, I hope I'm just
thinking, Damn, that was fun.
Jonathan (35:50):
Damn, that was fun.
That sounds like a gravestonepiece, dude.
That's like, what's your mostimportant self care practice?
Oh,
Callie (35:59):
um, all right.
So in, in my household, we callit no talking time.
So if I am in A less thanstellar mood, my partner tells
me to go have no talking time,and that usually helps, or I
don't know, maybe it's just hisway of, uh, avoiding me, but in,
(36:22):
in all seriousness, just beingquiet, it's Um, being still
sitting outside, just slowingdown is usually the trick for,
for how I'm able to practiceself care.
Jonathan (36:36):
Oh, I think I'm going to institute a no talking time
at the Mueller household.
And that's something I need.
My wife, Kim would, uh, wouldaffirm that Jonathan could be a
no talking time.
Um, Callie, what's your favoritesong and or music genre?
Callie (36:51):
Okay, So, uh, Bruce Springsteen's Thunder Road is,
is one of my favorites.
Um, I grew up listening to him.
My parents took me to hisconcerts as a kid.
I have always just appreciatedthat blue collar storytelling.
Um, I think something about itjust, I don't know, resonates.
(37:12):
It's good for the soul.
I just recently saw him inconcert a couple of weeks ago,
so it's, it's been on my mind.
How
Jonathan (37:18):
was he?
Callie (37:19):
It was awesome.
Jonathan (37:23):
He literally is the boss.
Is he not?
He
Callie (37:25):
so is.
Um, actually this is funny.
So, uh, my partner Caleb got mea t shirt, that actually has an
old school picture of, Bruce onit.
And it says the only boss of me.
Shut up!
Jonathan (37:39):
My gosh, I love it.
Can I tell you Thunder Roadrecalls a very specific time in
my life right after I graduatedI was in living in Chicago and I
had a good buddy Andy Jesson wholike turned me on I knew that I
had already known the bossclearly but like I didn't know
Thunder Road and he helped meunderstand what a beautiful Song
and story it was and I'm gonnaread I actually just pulled it
(38:00):
up as he mentioned it Butthere's this verse that goes you
could hide beneath your coversand study your pain make crosses
from your lovers throw roses intheir brain Waste your summer
praying in vain for a savior torise from these streets.
Isn't that such a beautiful,representation of being the
moment?
Oh! Yes! Yes! Well, yes, Callie,well said.
(38:21):
Thank you.
Oh, I love that.
Um, what's one thing you'd tellyour 18 year old self?
Callie (38:27):
Oof.
18.
I would say that your 20s aregonna be good.
your 30s are definitely better,and at this point, I am
absolutely planning for my 40sto, like, exceed all
expectations.
I'm excited about what thefuture holds, new ways I'm gonna
(38:48):
be challenged and grow, so Ithink I would tell 18 year old
me, uh, it just keeps gettingbetter.
Jonathan (38:56):
Ah, it's so true that has been exactly my experience
as well.
that resonates Callie.
Well, you can only wear onestyle of footwear.
What would it be?
Can
Callie (39:06):
I go barefoot?
Is that an option?
Yeah.
All right.
Bare feet.
I would select no shoes at allif that's my option.
Jonathan (39:15):
Ah, I love it.
Hey, Callie, thank you so much.
This is such a fun conversation.
I appreciate you coming on.
Callie (39:22):
You are welcome.
It was a blast.
I'd be happy to come backanytime, Jonathan.
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