November 21, 2023 • 34 mins
Pam is a neighbor of mine in Golden, Colorado and fellow former outdoor educator ... in addition to being a BCBA, on the faculty of Purdue Global, and owning her own practice. It's easy to look back on our lives and think 'everything happens for a reason.' Whether or not that's true, I like to think that hers and mine similar experiences teaching in the outdoors helped us find this ABA field that we both love. And if you're a student at Purdue? TAKE HER OBM CLASS! the projects that her students work on know no bounds. Enjoy, kind listener.
Resources:
Pam...
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pamela-martien-koch/
Organization: https://clearcreekbehaviorservices.com/
"Building and Sustaining Meaningful and Effective Relationships as a Supervisor and Mentor", LeBlanc, Sellers, Ala'i, https://www.amazon.com/Sustaining-Meaningful-Effective-Relationships-Supervisor/dp/1597381209/ref=as...
"The Coaching Manager", Hunt & Weintraub: https://www.amazon.com/Coaching-Manager-Developing-Talent-Business/dp/0761924191
Building Better Businesses in ABA is edited and produced by KJ Herodirt Productions
Intro/outro Music Credit: song "Tailor Made" by Yari and bensound.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan (00:30):
My guest today is Pamela Martine Cook.
Pam is the founder and executivedirector of Clear Creek Behavior
Services, an adjunct faculty atPurdue University where she
teaches courses in supervisionand OBM.
She's a BCBA with over 20 yearsof experience working in ABA.
Her passion lies in helpingclinicians and supervisors
realize their potential throughevidence based supervisory
(00:51):
practice.
Pamela is passionate aboutexpanding the field of OBM and
sharing the science of behaviorwith individuals.
outside our field.
Pam, welcome to the pod.
Pam (01:01):
Thank you, Jonathan, for having me.
You know,
Jonathan (01:04):
there's, this is a distinct honor, Pam, because
this is the first time, uh, youlive in golden Colorado and you
and I actually both live in thesame neighborhood.
And, we were introduced by MissyOlive, mutual friend, um, and
realize that we like literallylive down the street from one
another.
It's so awesome to have anothergolden, acolyte of our, of our
(01:24):
science here.
So welcome.
Thank
Pam (01:27):
you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Jonathan (01:28):
Um, well, I, so I let's start cause I think, um,
one of the things that I socherish about golden and for all
YouTube listeners or, orwatchers check out my hat.
Cause actually I'm wearing a hatwith North table mountain on it.
So I'm an unabashed Homer ofgolden Colorado, but like one of
the common interests of everyonewho lives in golden is the
outdoors.
And, um, we're just passionateabout everything, every kind of
(01:49):
outdoor sport and disciplinefrom skiing to mountain biking
to hiking to you name it.
but Pam, tell me you have yourown.
Pretty extraordinary outdooreducation journey.
I want to hear about yourjourney from outdoor educator
and Ireland to, uh, coming allthe way then to ABA in Golden,
Colorado.
Pam (02:06):
Yes.
So, John, I grew up in theoutdoors.
We have a cabin in northernMichigan and I grew up camping
and skiing, canoeing, sailing,just kind of everything you
would do on a lake.
And my parents were Just adamantabout being outdoors and
(02:27):
exploring.
So I just kind of did thatthroughout my life.
And then when I went to collegeat University of Colorado, I got
into skiing and mountain bikingand climbing.
And that honestly was...
My passion at that time.
So I was studying advertising,but that was where my time was
(02:47):
spent outdoors.
And, after college, I moved toLondon to work and quickly
realized that I wanted to move.
Back into the outdoors.
London's not a big outdoor city.
Actually, I think they're apretty active city.
But, um, I wanted to be innature a little bit more, and a
friend of mine was working inNorthern Ireland at an outdoor
(03:10):
camp and said, come on over andwork with us.
Quickly moved over to NorthernIreland and started working at a
camp there and did a lot ofexploring and climbing.
They're big, big outdoorsmen andwomen there.
So just kind of got into thatthere.
And then through my work there,I had a lot of influences that
(03:31):
kind of led me towards my pathat ABA.
So some of the groups that Iworked with and then a friend of
mine actually worked in ABA.
And so I started kind of Showingsome interest in that area.
And when I came back to theStates, I, continued to work in
the outdoors and guide programsfor kids and ended up moving to
(03:54):
Portland.
And eventually worked my way toan ABA clinic in Portland and
was a, I think they, you know,it's a behavior technician.
They didn't have that title atthat time, but, I was a behavior
technician and just, that kindof got me started.
And then I moved back toColorado, came to Golden because
(04:17):
like you said, the, thelifestyle and the people here
aligned with my interests.
So I've kind of been here eversince.
Jonathan (04:24):
Pam, what an amazing origin story.
you know, it's so funny.
So 20 years ago when Itransitioned my career, cause I
was in management consulting inSilicon Valley, I had a big.
transition.
And before I got into ABA, Ispent about six, seven years in
outdoor ed.
And it was this kind of thingwhere I had worked my way up the
totem pole, whatever the totempole is in the corporate world.
but I had to start over againand I was like wonderfully happy
(04:47):
with that.
Um, but like I was a summercamp, a back country, expedition
leader.
and so I was worked at a summercamp for three summers.
I was, uh, leading trips up inWyoming with NOLS.
Um, I was actually workingOutdoor education, science camp
programs, and you talk aboutlike a 24 seven, you know, this
best, right?
You're like literally with kids24 seven.
(05:09):
Yeah.
And, um, and it was awesome.
I loved it.
I did this for years.
I don't know if I still have theenergy to do it today, maybe,
but you know what I always thinkabout is, gosh, if I just knew
the principles of behavioranalysis back then, I could have
been such a better instructorand leader.
I don't know if you ever have.
Pam (05:23):
Right, right.
Yes.
In fact, for a while, I remembertalking to.
The director at the clinic Iworked in Portland and said,
maybe we should.
You know, build a climbing walland use some visual prompts to
teach certain skills.
And I had all these ideas abouthow we could mesh the two
fields.
It certainly was a dream at thestart of my career.
Jonathan (05:46):
Oh, well, maybe that, that climbing wall or that climb
there's, we've got a couple offew climbing gyms here in
Golden.
Maybe that dream can still bereal, like the confluence of ABA
and outdoor ed.
But you know, I, I love, youknow, you teach at Purdue.
And your passion is OBM.
I'm passionate about OBM aswell, but like what inspired
that OBM journey for you?
Pam (06:06):
Well, I think that when you work in any business long
enough, you start to understandthat we need a way to Evaluate
the systems, the processes, youknow, individual performance
within organization.
It, it's part of what we do.
And as I started moving up intoleadership roles, I realized I
(06:32):
didn't have that skillset.
I wasn't necessarily taught thatin my coursework.
And I certainly didn't have thatkind of guidance as I moved my
way through.
My work in behavior analysis andthis wasn't to anyone's fault, I
mentioned this when I was atABAI this weekend that, um,
(06:53):
there weren't a lot of behavioranalysts in Colorado when I
started, There weren't clinics,I'm not sure if there were any
clinics at the time, and so Ihad to learn as I kind of went,
and I had to learn how tosupervise and oversee programs,
and I didn't have training inthat.
So I started to look to, as Ineeded that in the work that I
(07:14):
was doing in my supervisorroles, I started to look to the
Journal of OrganizationalBehavior Management.
And said this is some good stuffand really have recognized as
I've supervised and taughtpracticum classes that this
needs to be part of our coreeducation for behavior analysts
(07:35):
because they move intoleadership leadership.
Rolls quickly and need to havethose skills.
I think it's important.
Jonathan (07:43):
I want to correct you on something.
This should not just be coreeducation for behavior analysis.
This needs to be core educationfor every single discipline,
right?
Like they don't teach us in MBAprograms.
They don't teach us anothermaster's program.
They don't teach an undergrad.
And I think our world andcertainly organizations are not
as good of a place that they canbe.
They have not realized theirfull potential because they
don't have that training, right?
(08:03):
And otherwise we're just doing,like you said, that we're, we're
sort of trying to Thank you.
Do the best we can going along,but we know that's not the best
way to learn.
Pam (08:10):
Right.
I couldn't agree more.
And, and I think there's a lotof options out there for people
to use in businesses.
And so they just kind of grab atwhat makes sense to them and
it's not always evidence basedand useful for their individual
organizations.
Yeah.
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah.
Jonathan (08:28):
Totally.
I think business, right?
So I'm, I'm zooming way out.
And, um, there's always thesebusiness fads and trends.
You go back to the eighties withlike, um, so George Welsh, the
CEO of, uh, of GE for a longtime, who was regarded as the
guru of leadership.
And do you know what GE used todo?
Rank and yank every single year,they would rank people,
literally force rank them top tobottom.
(08:48):
And then the bottom 10 percentthat yank them, fire them out of
the company.
I mean, you talk not only likeThat's not to your point, not
evidence based, but it createsthis like psychologically unsafe
environment where people can'tdo their best.
So amen like we just in thisworld, organizations need more
of it.
Pam (09:03):
Right.
Yes.
And I remember my dad taughtbusiness, um, as I was growing
up.
So that was kind of the verbiagethat I heard growing up, but he
did always say people need tohave, no matter what field
they're in, they need tounderstand business.
And so that kind of resonatedwith me as I started again,
moving into those leadershiproles, thinking about my
(09:26):
advertising background and thebusiness courses that I took,
that this made sense to kind of,Merge that understanding of how
to look at workplace behaviors.
from the behavior analyticperspective.
Jonathan (09:39):
So true.
Well, one of the really coolthings that, um, that you've
told me that you do in yourclass every semester is your
students, they don't just studyOBM.
They embark on a project and OBMproject every semester.
Tell me more about that.
Pam (09:55):
Right, yeah, so when I was developing the course,
questioned whether I shouldactually build that project into
it.
I had heard other organizations,I think I'd even read, um, in
different places and talked tosome people, maybe through ABA
Technologies, that that's atough thing to do, to learn
about OBM and do your projectall in the same semester.
(10:16):
But I felt pretty strongly.
From my experiences atsupervising BCBAs and maybe like
conducting FBAs that you neededto practice to really kind of
mess up and, and go throughthose steps and learn what you
don't know.
So I really wanted to build thatinto the course.
And one of the cool things thathappened this semester is ABA
(10:37):
Technologies, worked with me toallow us to use their, OBM
specialist certificate coursewithin the course.
And so students were able to dothat and get a lot of content.
and of course the content wouldbe taught throughout the course,
but then we could really focuson those projects in our
courses.
so they were asked to pick anorganization.
(11:00):
The majority pickedorganizations that were ABA
clinics, but some did reachoutside our field and do
projects and really coolorganizations.
And then they go through thesemester and identify a business
need or opportunity within anorganization, and then address
that throughout the semester.
And then in the end, theyprovide recommendations to the
(11:22):
organization.
They don't have to complete therecommendations, although some
of them do.
And then they solicit feedbackfrom that organization to kind
of talk about that process andthen talk about what they
learned as
Jonathan (11:34):
well.
Oh, I'm getting like the spinetickles.
What is that?
ASMR, whatever it's called.
Like with you describing this injust a moment, I'm going to ask,
for you to tell me a little bitmore about what one of those
projects looks like or whatrecommendations are, but you
know, it's, you know, what Ilove that you said is you have
to have this opportunity toexperience things and fail.
(11:55):
Right.
I mean, that's a lesson I'velearned as an entrepreneur and
starting an organization, right?
You're, if you think going intoit, like you're not going to
fail, you're going to fail on aton of stuff.
But the key is, how have youcome back from it?
It's no different Pam than like,than a baby learning to walk,
right.
A baby gets hurt and falls downand things happen.
And yeah, it's sad, but that'sall in the process of learning
how to walk most effectively.
(12:16):
but anyway, I, so I love thatyou said that, but yeah, tell me
more about one of those
Pam (12:19):
projects.
Well, you know, I.
I want to say that I hate to usethat word fail, and I do kind of
just come to that and actuallyuse that word fail because
it's...
the vocabulary maybe I grew upwith, but I don't really think
of it as failing because I dothink in doing these projects,
these students really grow andlearn a lot.
(12:40):
And students come to the tablepretty fearful of having to do
this without any backgroundknowledge.
And then typically by the end ofthe semester, they're really
excited.
They have a lot of aha moments,how we can take The work that
they've learned to use withintheir clinic practice and apply
that to those workplacesettings.
(13:00):
I think they learn a deeperunderstanding of behavior
analysis.
So some of the projects thatstudents had, I had one who
worked in a surfing company, um,yeah, and it was customer
engagement.
They were looking at, I had somepeople starting their own
businesses.
Some students were actually.
Starting their own businesses.
So they used it for their ownbusinesses that were not
(13:23):
behavior analytic businesses.
So they had sort of side gigs.
And then, um, I had a studentwho was working with a company
that builds products anequipment for environmental
testing.
and I think looked at thesystems within that
organization.
I had a student who was involvedin sort of the art world, in
(13:47):
international art world.
So really, really cool.
There was a couple farms, um,that they worked with to help.
And this was all happening whenwe were hearing across, The
globe about, difficulties withorganizations, with hiring and
staff retention anddistribution.
(14:07):
And they were all addressingthese high, high needs.
So we did talk about that.
This is, you know.
I don't expect that you're goingto solve all these problems for
this organization, but smallsteps.
Jonathan (14:20):
Oh my God.
From surfing to likeinternational art worlds of
farmers, the like environmentaltesting.
And just to be clear, like youteach online, right?
Through Purdue.
So this is not just here ingolden or Colorado.
This is like all over thecountry.
Correct.
Pam (14:33):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jonathan (14:35):
So I don't know if I ever went back to school to get
my, like, Like, I would want tobe in your class?
Like first and foremost, that'scool.
Real world hands on experience.
Um, that's yeah, that's reallyprofound.
at the end of, a semester whatkinds of reflections do your
students have about what they'velearned and how they've grown?
Pam (14:56):
Yeah, I think, you know, if I could sum it up, I think what
a lot of them have learned isthat it's okay to try something
new, and as long as you have theright guidance, and I hope that
I provided that to make itcomfortable for students, um, to
try something new and see whatit feels like, and learn along
(15:17):
the way, and that There's a lotto take away from that.
And they did.
I think they really had astronger understanding of OBM.
A lot of them said I think thisis a, starting point for them to
now investigate more how theycan apply that to the, their own
practice.
But I think they had a newfoundinterest in it.
That's
Jonathan (15:37):
awesome.
Because I mean, school is just astarting point, right?
Of learning.
That's not the end point.
it's like excellence, right?
It's not the end point.
So it feels like if you'reinspiring them at the beginning
of their journey of OBM andgiving them guidance and real
world experience and they becomea lifelong OBM seeker, that's a
neat thing, Pam.
Pam (15:55):
Wow.
Yeah, I hope, I hope that wasthe case.
And I think if nothing else, itinspires me to see their growth
and how much I grow in this.
And I mean, I learn everyproject.
that I take on, I think, Oh mygosh, how am I going to guide a
student on, you know, like thiscompany that's doing
environmental testing?
And, um, they always come awayknowing way more than I do.
(16:17):
So it's pretty cool.
Jonathan (16:18):
That's so awesome.
Spoken like a true, humble,wise, uh, teacher that you're,
you're constantly learning fromthem as to, well, tell me, I
want to shift gears.
Um, tell me about your mentorand our mutual friend, who
connected us, Missy Olive and,Sort of how you all got to know
what another, and what youlearned from Missy in grad
school.
Pam (16:39):
Yeah, so Missy was a professor of mine in grad school
and one of the really remarkablethings about Missy is her Desire
to mentor and supervise.
So she always providesopportunities to her students
and to me in my professionaldevelopment.
(17:00):
And that's where she really hasbecome.
When I think of the literaturewhere it talks about sponsor
versus mentorship versusmanager, I think she was really
a sponsor and a mentor for me.
She's helped me to growprofessionally.
She includes me in opportunitiesfor presentations.
She and I just sat on a paneltogether at ABAI.
(17:20):
I can always still turn to herand say, I don't really know
what to do here.
Can you help me with thisscenario?
So she's always, she's justavailable.
If I, um, have a needprofessionally, I can reach out
to her and, um, Can I ask thisquestion?
She has incredibly high workethics and high standards.
(17:42):
So she always encourages andchallenges me to work at that
level, which I respect.
I admire that.
And, um, I know that again, Ithink one of the panelists in
our last talk said that theyoften call Missy to check them
on if they're doing something,you know, that's ethical, et
cetera.
(18:02):
And I do, I feel like I can callher.
And, um, ask questions aboutethics and is this appropriate
to do this?
she's helped me with a coupleschool scenarios where I've been
working with schools and she hassome background in that to say,
here's some things you want tolook to.
And she encourages me to havethe autonomy to do it.
(18:23):
So she doesn't necessarily do itfor me, but helps me to learn
how to get there.
Jonathan (18:29):
Wow.
You know, and I think this is agood takeaway for.
Any manager anywhere is like,yeah, you're going to have your
direct line supervisor, yourmanager.
but it's really important tostay in touch with and I'll call
it quote unquote collectmentors, right?
Along the way, almost like akitchen cabinet.
(18:49):
Um, because there's always,there are always things to be
learned.
that's what I've done over thecourse of my career.
And having those people to pickup the phone and call, it's just
a really powerful thing.
It's a humbling thing too, but Ilove that idea about checking
ourselves.
So You consult school districts,you have a small practice Clear
Creek Behavior Services.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat work and, um, and by the
(19:09):
way, Clear Creek is the name ofthe creek that flows through
Golden, Colorado.
And most people would say, Oh, Ihaven't seen that.
But if you've ever watched aCoors commercial, Coors the
beer, and they talk about that.
The Rocky Mountain Springwater,uh, they don't actually show
Clear Creek in that, but theywere referencing Clear Creek
when they talked about thatRocky Mountain Springwater.
But anyway, tell me more aboutClear Creek Behavior Services,
(19:30):
Pam.
Pam (19:30):
Right, well, so of course it got its name because of my
interest in golden and theoutdoors and being by water,
so...
A lot of people think I'maffiliated with the city.
I have to clarify that a lot.
Yeah.
But yeah, so I run a practicewhere I provide consultation
services to families andconsultation services to schools
(19:54):
and in the community in general.
I used to work for one of thecommunity center boards in
Colorado, which is sort of theentry point for services.
And I, oversaw their behavioralhealth team.
And then, um, moved out on myown when my son came to me.
So, um, it's a small practiceand it kind of fluctuates and
(20:17):
how many clients I have based onmy teaching load.
So,
Jonathan (20:21):
well, I think it's really cool that you're teaching
and you're also on the side,you're doing the same things,
right?
I'm sure employing the OBMtechniques and your science and
that feels super powerful.
Pam (20:32):
Yeah.
Helps me kind of practice what Ipreach, I think a little bit.
Jonathan (20:36):
Nice.
I like that.
By the way, I'm going to share.
I don't know if listeners willcare at all, but a fun fact
about Clear Creek coming back toit.
Do you know what its originalname was?
I don't.
No.
I just learned this and I'velived here 11 years.
Um, the original name wasCannonball.
Creek.
And I don't know all the historybehind that.
I will say this because I am anavid craft beer fan.
(20:58):
We have across the street fromour neighborhood Cannonball
Creek Brewery.
Huge shout out to the owner,Jason and his partners, Jonathan
and Brian.
They've been in the communityfor 10 plus years.
They are the only Coloradobrewery.
That has won an award at thegreat American beer festival
every year for a decade.
And they make dank IPAs andpilsners and it's so good.
(21:21):
And my kids like have grown upthere.
So I had to, I had to do a shoutout.
Let's come back to, you spoke soeloquently of the role that
Missy has played for you as amentor, Pam, what should BCBAs
look for in a mentor?
Pam (21:37):
You know, I ask this question to students every
semester, and I have people askme this question a lot, and I
think probably the first thingto look for is someone that you
can have a good rapport with,because you are going to be
inevitably dealing with complexsituations where you have to
have complex conversations,where you are receiving
(21:59):
corrective feedback, and youneed to provide feedback to your
supervisor as well.
So, starting with a goodrapport, I think, is critical.
and finding someone thatrecognizes their own limitations
and their own needs and has thathumility to look to other
mentors, that can model that.
they need mentorship as well, Ithink is critical.
(22:21):
I also think someone that canprovide a good structure to
supervision, so who's wellorganized, has systems in place
to provide supervision, isincredibly valuable because
there's a lot of nuances toproviding supervision, just the
logistics of your forms,understanding the BACB
requirements.
I think having those systems inplace helps that relationship.
(22:44):
Um, Be more functional as youmove through that relationship.
I said someone who is humble,prepared to.
Accept that feedback as well andlearn along the process.
I took a parenting class earlywhen my son was first born that
talked about how to raise, um,kids who are resilient and have
(23:07):
autonomy.
And it talked aboutunderstanding that.
the nuance of when to come inand take charge and provide more
guidance and when to step backand let people learn and
possibly even lead the, youknow, child led instruction.
so I think that relates tosupervision.
(23:27):
If we know when to letsupervisees try and they have a
strong base to kind of move outand try on their own and have
some autonomy, I think that'simportant for us to let.
Supervisors do that and thenunderstand when there's times
that we need to pull back andkind of take charge and help
guide them a little bit more.
So I think that's important.
(23:48):
and then my students always giveme feedback because I ask in
every one of my supervisionclasses, what should we start
doing?
What should we stop doing?
What should we keep doing?
And they talk about feedback inparticular.
that they want from thesupervisees more feedback.
They want feedback to be timelyand they want to see mutual
(24:09):
respect and supervisors beingrespectful of them and their
individual needs.
So I think that's, you know,from a lot of students, that's
kind of some bullet points ofwhat is valuable.
I
Jonathan (24:21):
love that you asked for that feedback, right?
That's the best way I think as aleader.
to create a culture and anorganization and on teams of
feedback is you got to ask forit first, right?
So that's super powerful.
You know, it was really cool.
You know, it resonated with me,Pam, when you described, you've
got to know is a good mentorwhen to lean in and take charge
and then when to step back.
(24:43):
There's a component ofdiscernment there, that's hard
to develop, right?
Like, I don't know, what is thatprocess?
Like, how do you recommendsomeone who's an emerging
leader?
How do you build a repertoire ofdiscernment?
Gosh.
Pam (24:58):
Um, I think there is probably A lot of information
out there to address this, but Ifeel like I really learned that
through trial and error.
I'm not sure if that's the bestway to learn that.
Um, but I do take notes on whatstudents and supervisees have
told me.
And I have started therelationship just modeling that,
(25:20):
like, give me feedback, give mefeedback, give me feedback so
that they do start to feel morecomfortable.
I talked about that.
You have to sort of shape.
the behavior of providingfeedback as well as receiving
feedback.
Um, so kind of systematicallydoing that in your practice, I
think is helpful.
I'm sure there's otherstrategies.
(25:40):
I know that supervision book,that we have in our class is an
excellent book, by LeBlancSellers and I, it's just a great
book, um, with resources for howto be an effective supervisor.
so I think.
Mine was trial and error, butnow I probably look to the
literature more to understandhow to do that, how to set that
(26:03):
up.
It's
Jonathan (26:04):
a great point.
I, I mean, I learned throughtrial and error as well.
Right.
but there are wonderfulresources and you mentioned one
of them.
I mean, that book is seminal,right?
It's just, it's so good, but itgives guidance, right?
Into how to do that moresystematically.
And,
Pam (26:18):
um, yes, maybe you can give the proper shout out to the
authors of that book because thethird author, I can never say.
Jonathan (26:25):
That's right.
Dr.
Allawi, I believe, but I'll puta reference to that book in the
show.
I've got that on my shelf aswell.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You know, the other thing, Pam,I would add on top of that.
And one thing I've learned over,my 25 professional years is to
get a lot better at.
Asking the right questions.
And I think early in my career,and this is probably a function
(26:46):
of insecurity, it would be like,no, I got to show that like I'm
the smartest, right?
I'm the man, the consultant whocomes into a fortune 500 company
at 21, 22 years old.
And so I've got to show that I'mgoing to add value.
But as I've grown older, Irealized it's not about me, like
demonstrating I I'm addingvalue.
It's about me demonstrating.
I understand what someone isgoing through, what they're
experiencing, what their needsare.
(27:06):
And If I can ask those rightquestions to guide them on a
path, that's where it feels mostvaluable.
I don't know how do you thinkabout asking questions?
Pam (27:15):
I think you're so right.
I do, and as you're saying that,I'm thinking that that's how I
start to see behavior analysts,bud in their practice is when
they start working in thatclinical setting and working
with families and other teachersand they start conducting their
assessments and they startlearning how to ask the right
questions, you start to see thathappen across.
Jonathan (27:40):
Yeah.
And it feels like it createsmore trust with family asking as
opposed to trying to assertthings like ask questions and
that's, that, that feels superimportant.
There's another book I'll, I'lldrop it in the show notes, that
I've loved over the years.
It's called the coachingmanager.
And I, Hey, like fulldisclosure, I coach a bunch of
my kids, sports teams fromsoccer, like skiing to
basketball to baseball.
(28:01):
I love being a coach.
And it's cool.
this book came out of Stanford,graduate school of business.
but it talks about thediscipline of as a coaching
manager, quote unquote, how youmake sure you're discerning and
asking the right kinds ofquestions.
And that's felt, powerful to mein my journey.
Oh, I like
Pam (28:19):
that.
I like that.
I'll be interested to look atthat book.
Yeah.
One of the things that I oftensay to my son and his Friends, I
do some literacy work.
Sometimes I volunteer to schoolsometimes, and I always start
off telling the kids So I don'tremember where I heard this long
ago But we have two ears and onemouth so that we can listen
(28:39):
twice as much as we speak.
So I try to Remember that myselfas I because I love to talk.
I love to tell people what I'velearned and help supervise me so
sometimes I have to remember tostep back and listen to
Jonathan (28:52):
Oh, I love, I love that.
I also recently learned, did youknow this?
That, um, silent is an anagramfor listen.
Oh,
Pam (29:05):
that's wonderful.
Jonathan (29:07):
Two years, one mouth silent and listen anagram.
It all goes.
Pam (29:12):
Beautiful.
Jonathan (29:13):
Yes.
Pam, what's one thing every ABAbusiness owner should start
doing and one thing to stopdoing?
Pam (29:20):
You know, I think collaboration is the big thing
we can do as business owners.
We're a fairly young professionin some respects, and I think in
order for us to disseminate thescience, we need to work
together and share our messagetogether and share resources and
knowledge.
And then, I guess conversely,maybe don't act as an island.
(29:43):
We are a part of a much largersystem, and this includes our
behavior analytics system, andthen other systems that could
benefit from the science ofbehavior.
So, um, Remember that we're partof a larger, a larger group.
Jonathan (29:59):
And I like that homage to dissemination, right?
Like, we have an obligation, Ifeel like, to disseminate our
science.
Yes.
So powerful.
Well, Pam, where can people findyou online?
Pam (30:08):
My website is clearcreekbehaviorservices.com
So I'd love to hear feedbackfrom anybody there.
My email is listed on thewebsite.
Jonathan (30:18):
Awesome.
Right on.
And, um, for anyone who'scurrently at Purdue or is
thinking about going, look upPam and, and her class on OBM.
Um, gosh, I would love to takeit someday, Pam.
Pam (30:31):
Yeah.
I'd love to have you, Jonathan.
Jonathan (30:33):
Well, all right.
You ready for the hot takequestions?
I sure am.
Okay, here we go.
You're on your deathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Pam (30:41):
You know, I heard a talk by Wayne Dyer once and he used the
quote, don't die with your musicstill in you.
So I think it's, you know, findyour music and, and I think try.
I think the biggest thing Iencourage everybody to do is
just try.
Give it a try.
Try something new.
Try your hardest.
You could apply it in a varietyof different ways, but just try.
(31:04):
And so hopefully I leave trying.
Jonathan (31:07):
I love that.
Don't die with your music stillin you.
I've got goosebumps.
That's powerful.
Yeah.
We have an expression in myfamily, try anything twice, but
I could not agree more.
What's your most important selfcare practice?
Pam (31:23):
You know, I think discipline and time management
are probably a start of thatbecause then it allows me to,
when I have good timemanagement, when I'm disciplined
about my routine, then I canhave time with my family,
exercise, meditate, whichultimately is what kind of helps
me in my self
Jonathan (31:40):
care.
Do you have a favorite song andor music genre?
Pam (31:46):
You know, um, I would say I have a lot of favorite songs,
but one that sort of resonateswith me recently is Scare Away
the Dark by Passenger.
I love the messages, lovewithout fear in your heart.
If we all light up, we can scareaway the dark.
So that's kind of how I feellike I live my life a little
bit.
So,
Jonathan (32:07):
um, Light up, we can scare away the dark.
These are just wisdom nuggetbombs.
What's one thing you'd tell your18 year old self?
Pam (32:19):
Gosh, I think it would be to listen to yourself.
Trust yourself.
I think you know yourself and tohear those inner voices and
follow through with those innervoices.
You're going to be successful ifyou truly trust in yourself.
Jonathan (32:36):
All right.
And if you could only wear onestyle of footwear, what would it
be?
Pam (32:41):
Um, sandals.
Flip flops, but like Chacos, Ithink that I can move around in
Jonathan (32:49):
super versatile.
Um, as are you, Pam, this hasbeen so much fun, my friend and
neighbor.
Thank you for coming on the podand sharing your wisdom.
Pam (32:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
I just love your podcast and youbring on such amazing guests.
So thanks for letting me be apart of it.
My guest today is Pamela Martine Cook.
Pam is the founder and executivedirector of Clear Creek Behavior
Services, an adjunct faculty atPurdue University where she
teaches courses in supervisionand OBM.
She's a BCBA with over 20 yearsof experience working in ABA.
Her passion lies in helpingclinicians and supervisors
realize their potential throughevidence based supervisory
(00:51):
practice.
Pamela is passionate aboutexpanding the field of OBM and
sharing the science of behaviorwith individuals.
outside our field.
Pam, welcome to the pod.
Pam (01:01):
Thank you, Jonathan, for having me.
You know,
Jonathan (01:04):
there's, this is a distinct honor, Pam, because
this is the first time, uh, youlive in golden Colorado and you
and I actually both live in thesame neighborhood.
And, we were introduced by MissyOlive, mutual friend, um, and
realize that we like literallylive down the street from one
another.
It's so awesome to have anothergolden, acolyte of our, of our
(01:24):
science here.
So welcome.
Thank
Pam (01:27):
you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Jonathan (01:28):
Um, well, I, so I let's start cause I think, um,
one of the things that I socherish about golden and for all
YouTube listeners or, orwatchers check out my hat.
Cause actually I'm wearing a hatwith North table mountain on it.
So I'm an unabashed Homer ofgolden Colorado, but like one of
the common interests of everyonewho lives in golden is the
outdoors.
And, um, we're just passionateabout everything, every kind of
(01:49):
outdoor sport and disciplinefrom skiing to mountain biking
to hiking to you name it.
but Pam, tell me you have yourown.
Pretty extraordinary outdooreducation journey.
I want to hear about yourjourney from outdoor educator
and Ireland to, uh, coming allthe way then to ABA in Golden,
Colorado.
Pam (02:06):
Yes.
So, John, I grew up in theoutdoors.
We have a cabin in northernMichigan and I grew up camping
and skiing, canoeing, sailing,just kind of everything you
would do on a lake.
And my parents were Just adamantabout being outdoors and
(02:27):
exploring.
So I just kind of did thatthroughout my life.
And then when I went to collegeat University of Colorado, I got
into skiing and mountain bikingand climbing.
And that honestly was...
My passion at that time.
So I was studying advertising,but that was where my time was
(02:47):
spent outdoors.
And, after college, I moved toLondon to work and quickly
realized that I wanted to move.
Back into the outdoors.
London's not a big outdoor city.
Actually, I think they're apretty active city.
But, um, I wanted to be innature a little bit more, and a
friend of mine was working inNorthern Ireland at an outdoor
(03:10):
camp and said, come on over andwork with us.
Quickly moved over to NorthernIreland and started working at a
camp there and did a lot ofexploring and climbing.
They're big, big outdoorsmen andwomen there.
So just kind of got into thatthere.
And then through my work there,I had a lot of influences that
(03:31):
kind of led me towards my pathat ABA.
So some of the groups that Iworked with and then a friend of
mine actually worked in ABA.
And so I started kind of Showingsome interest in that area.
And when I came back to theStates, I, continued to work in
the outdoors and guide programsfor kids and ended up moving to
(03:54):
Portland.
And eventually worked my way toan ABA clinic in Portland and
was a, I think they, you know,it's a behavior technician.
They didn't have that title atthat time, but, I was a behavior
technician and just, that kindof got me started.
And then I moved back toColorado, came to Golden because
(04:17):
like you said, the, thelifestyle and the people here
aligned with my interests.
So I've kind of been here eversince.
Jonathan (04:24):
Pam, what an amazing origin story.
you know, it's so funny.
So 20 years ago when Itransitioned my career, cause I
was in management consulting inSilicon Valley, I had a big.
transition.
And before I got into ABA, Ispent about six, seven years in
outdoor ed.
And it was this kind of thingwhere I had worked my way up the
totem pole, whatever the totempole is in the corporate world.
but I had to start over againand I was like wonderfully happy
(04:47):
with that.
Um, but like I was a summercamp, a back country, expedition
leader.
and so I was worked at a summercamp for three summers.
I was, uh, leading trips up inWyoming with NOLS.
Um, I was actually workingOutdoor education, science camp
programs, and you talk aboutlike a 24 seven, you know, this
best, right?
You're like literally with kids24 seven.
(05:09):
Yeah.
And, um, and it was awesome.
I loved it.
I did this for years.
I don't know if I still have theenergy to do it today, maybe,
but you know what I always thinkabout is, gosh, if I just knew
the principles of behavioranalysis back then, I could have
been such a better instructorand leader.
I don't know if you ever have.
Pam (05:23):
Right, right.
Yes.
In fact, for a while, I remembertalking to.
The director at the clinic Iworked in Portland and said,
maybe we should.
You know, build a climbing walland use some visual prompts to
teach certain skills.
And I had all these ideas abouthow we could mesh the two
fields.
It certainly was a dream at thestart of my career.
Jonathan (05:46):
Oh, well, maybe that, that climbing wall or that climb
there's, we've got a couple offew climbing gyms here in
Golden.
Maybe that dream can still bereal, like the confluence of ABA
and outdoor ed.
But you know, I, I love, youknow, you teach at Purdue.
And your passion is OBM.
I'm passionate about OBM aswell, but like what inspired
that OBM journey for you?
Pam (06:06):
Well, I think that when you work in any business long
enough, you start to understandthat we need a way to Evaluate
the systems, the processes, youknow, individual performance
within organization.
It, it's part of what we do.
And as I started moving up intoleadership roles, I realized I
(06:32):
didn't have that skillset.
I wasn't necessarily taught thatin my coursework.
And I certainly didn't have thatkind of guidance as I moved my
way through.
My work in behavior analysis andthis wasn't to anyone's fault, I
mentioned this when I was atABAI this weekend that, um,
(06:53):
there weren't a lot of behavioranalysts in Colorado when I
started, There weren't clinics,I'm not sure if there were any
clinics at the time, and so Ihad to learn as I kind of went,
and I had to learn how tosupervise and oversee programs,
and I didn't have training inthat.
So I started to look to, as Ineeded that in the work that I
(07:14):
was doing in my supervisorroles, I started to look to the
Journal of OrganizationalBehavior Management.
And said this is some good stuffand really have recognized as
I've supervised and taughtpracticum classes that this
needs to be part of our coreeducation for behavior analysts
(07:35):
because they move intoleadership leadership.
Rolls quickly and need to havethose skills.
I think it's important.
Jonathan (07:43):
I want to correct you on something.
This should not just be coreeducation for behavior analysis.
This needs to be core educationfor every single discipline,
right?
Like they don't teach us in MBAprograms.
They don't teach us anothermaster's program.
They don't teach an undergrad.
And I think our world andcertainly organizations are not
as good of a place that they canbe.
They have not realized theirfull potential because they
don't have that training, right?
(08:03):
And otherwise we're just doing,like you said, that we're, we're
sort of trying to Thank you.
Do the best we can going along,but we know that's not the best
way to learn.
Pam (08:10):
Right.
I couldn't agree more.
And, and I think there's a lotof options out there for people
to use in businesses.
And so they just kind of grab atwhat makes sense to them and
it's not always evidence basedand useful for their individual
organizations.
Yeah.
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah.
Jonathan (08:28):
Totally.
I think business, right?
So I'm, I'm zooming way out.
And, um, there's always thesebusiness fads and trends.
You go back to the eighties withlike, um, so George Welsh, the
CEO of, uh, of GE for a longtime, who was regarded as the
guru of leadership.
And do you know what GE used todo?
Rank and yank every single year,they would rank people,
literally force rank them top tobottom.
(08:48):
And then the bottom 10 percentthat yank them, fire them out of
the company.
I mean, you talk not only likeThat's not to your point, not
evidence based, but it createsthis like psychologically unsafe
environment where people can'tdo their best.
So amen like we just in thisworld, organizations need more
of it.
Pam (09:03):
Right.
Yes.
And I remember my dad taughtbusiness, um, as I was growing
up.
So that was kind of the verbiagethat I heard growing up, but he
did always say people need tohave, no matter what field
they're in, they need tounderstand business.
And so that kind of resonatedwith me as I started again,
moving into those leadershiproles, thinking about my
(09:26):
advertising background and thebusiness courses that I took,
that this made sense to kind of,Merge that understanding of how
to look at workplace behaviors.
from the behavior analyticperspective.
Jonathan (09:39):
So true.
Well, one of the really coolthings that, um, that you've
told me that you do in yourclass every semester is your
students, they don't just studyOBM.
They embark on a project and OBMproject every semester.
Tell me more about that.
Pam (09:55):
Right, yeah, so when I was developing the course,
questioned whether I shouldactually build that project into
it.
I had heard other organizations,I think I'd even read, um, in
different places and talked tosome people, maybe through ABA
Technologies, that that's atough thing to do, to learn
about OBM and do your projectall in the same semester.
(10:16):
But I felt pretty strongly.
From my experiences atsupervising BCBAs and maybe like
conducting FBAs that you neededto practice to really kind of
mess up and, and go throughthose steps and learn what you
don't know.
So I really wanted to build thatinto the course.
And one of the cool things thathappened this semester is ABA
(10:37):
Technologies, worked with me toallow us to use their, OBM
specialist certificate coursewithin the course.
And so students were able to dothat and get a lot of content.
and of course the content wouldbe taught throughout the course,
but then we could really focuson those projects in our
courses.
so they were asked to pick anorganization.
(11:00):
The majority pickedorganizations that were ABA
clinics, but some did reachoutside our field and do
projects and really coolorganizations.
And then they go through thesemester and identify a business
need or opportunity within anorganization, and then address
that throughout the semester.
And then in the end, theyprovide recommendations to the
(11:22):
organization.
They don't have to complete therecommendations, although some
of them do.
And then they solicit feedbackfrom that organization to kind
of talk about that process andthen talk about what they
learned as
Jonathan (11:34):
well.
Oh, I'm getting like the spinetickles.
What is that?
ASMR, whatever it's called.
Like with you describing this injust a moment, I'm going to ask,
for you to tell me a little bitmore about what one of those
projects looks like or whatrecommendations are, but you
know, it's, you know, what Ilove that you said is you have
to have this opportunity toexperience things and fail.
(11:55):
Right.
I mean, that's a lesson I'velearned as an entrepreneur and
starting an organization, right?
You're, if you think going intoit, like you're not going to
fail, you're going to fail on aton of stuff.
But the key is, how have youcome back from it?
It's no different Pam than like,than a baby learning to walk,
right.
A baby gets hurt and falls downand things happen.
And yeah, it's sad, but that'sall in the process of learning
how to walk most effectively.
(12:16):
but anyway, I, so I love thatyou said that, but yeah, tell me
more about one of those
Pam (12:19):
projects.
Well, you know, I.
I want to say that I hate to usethat word fail, and I do kind of
just come to that and actuallyuse that word fail because
it's...
the vocabulary maybe I grew upwith, but I don't really think
of it as failing because I dothink in doing these projects,
these students really grow andlearn a lot.
(12:40):
And students come to the tablepretty fearful of having to do
this without any backgroundknowledge.
And then typically by the end ofthe semester, they're really
excited.
They have a lot of aha moments,how we can take The work that
they've learned to use withintheir clinic practice and apply
that to those workplacesettings.
(13:00):
I think they learn a deeperunderstanding of behavior
analysis.
So some of the projects thatstudents had, I had one who
worked in a surfing company, um,yeah, and it was customer
engagement.
They were looking at, I had somepeople starting their own
businesses.
Some students were actually.
Starting their own businesses.
So they used it for their ownbusinesses that were not
(13:23):
behavior analytic businesses.
So they had sort of side gigs.
And then, um, I had a studentwho was working with a company
that builds products anequipment for environmental
testing.
and I think looked at thesystems within that
organization.
I had a student who was involvedin sort of the art world, in
(13:47):
international art world.
So really, really cool.
There was a couple farms, um,that they worked with to help.
And this was all happening whenwe were hearing across, The
globe about, difficulties withorganizations, with hiring and
staff retention anddistribution.
(14:07):
And they were all addressingthese high, high needs.
So we did talk about that.
This is, you know.
I don't expect that you're goingto solve all these problems for
this organization, but smallsteps.
Jonathan (14:20):
Oh my God.
From surfing to likeinternational art worlds of
farmers, the like environmentaltesting.
And just to be clear, like youteach online, right?
Through Purdue.
So this is not just here ingolden or Colorado.
This is like all over thecountry.
Correct.
Pam (14:33):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jonathan (14:35):
So I don't know if I ever went back to school to get
my, like, Like, I would want tobe in your class?
Like first and foremost, that'scool.
Real world hands on experience.
Um, that's yeah, that's reallyprofound.
at the end of, a semester whatkinds of reflections do your
students have about what they'velearned and how they've grown?
Pam (14:56):
Yeah, I think, you know, if I could sum it up, I think what
a lot of them have learned isthat it's okay to try something
new, and as long as you have theright guidance, and I hope that
I provided that to make itcomfortable for students, um, to
try something new and see whatit feels like, and learn along
(15:17):
the way, and that There's a lotto take away from that.
And they did.
I think they really had astronger understanding of OBM.
A lot of them said I think thisis a, starting point for them to
now investigate more how theycan apply that to the, their own
practice.
But I think they had a newfoundinterest in it.
That's
Jonathan (15:37):
awesome.
Because I mean, school is just astarting point, right?
Of learning.
That's not the end point.
it's like excellence, right?
It's not the end point.
So it feels like if you'reinspiring them at the beginning
of their journey of OBM andgiving them guidance and real
world experience and they becomea lifelong OBM seeker, that's a
neat thing, Pam.
Pam (15:55):
Wow.
Yeah, I hope, I hope that wasthe case.
And I think if nothing else, itinspires me to see their growth
and how much I grow in this.
And I mean, I learn everyproject.
that I take on, I think, Oh mygosh, how am I going to guide a
student on, you know, like thiscompany that's doing
environmental testing?
And, um, they always come awayknowing way more than I do.
(16:17):
So it's pretty cool.
Jonathan (16:18):
That's so awesome.
Spoken like a true, humble,wise, uh, teacher that you're,
you're constantly learning fromthem as to, well, tell me, I
want to shift gears.
Um, tell me about your mentorand our mutual friend, who
connected us, Missy Olive and,Sort of how you all got to know
what another, and what youlearned from Missy in grad
school.
Pam (16:39):
Yeah, so Missy was a professor of mine in grad school
and one of the really remarkablethings about Missy is her Desire
to mentor and supervise.
So she always providesopportunities to her students
and to me in my professionaldevelopment.
(17:00):
And that's where she really hasbecome.
When I think of the literaturewhere it talks about sponsor
versus mentorship versusmanager, I think she was really
a sponsor and a mentor for me.
She's helped me to growprofessionally.
She includes me in opportunitiesfor presentations.
She and I just sat on a paneltogether at ABAI.
(17:20):
I can always still turn to herand say, I don't really know
what to do here.
Can you help me with thisscenario?
So she's always, she's justavailable.
If I, um, have a needprofessionally, I can reach out
to her and, um, Can I ask thisquestion?
She has incredibly high workethics and high standards.
(17:42):
So she always encourages andchallenges me to work at that
level, which I respect.
I admire that.
And, um, I know that again, Ithink one of the panelists in
our last talk said that theyoften call Missy to check them
on if they're doing something,you know, that's ethical, et
cetera.
(18:02):
And I do, I feel like I can callher.
And, um, ask questions aboutethics and is this appropriate
to do this?
she's helped me with a coupleschool scenarios where I've been
working with schools and she hassome background in that to say,
here's some things you want tolook to.
And she encourages me to havethe autonomy to do it.
(18:23):
So she doesn't necessarily do itfor me, but helps me to learn
how to get there.
Jonathan (18:29):
Wow.
You know, and I think this is agood takeaway for.
Any manager anywhere is like,yeah, you're going to have your
direct line supervisor, yourmanager.
but it's really important tostay in touch with and I'll call
it quote unquote collectmentors, right?
Along the way, almost like akitchen cabinet.
(18:49):
Um, because there's always,there are always things to be
learned.
that's what I've done over thecourse of my career.
And having those people to pickup the phone and call, it's just
a really powerful thing.
It's a humbling thing too, but Ilove that idea about checking
ourselves.
So You consult school districts,you have a small practice Clear
Creek Behavior Services.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat work and, um, and by the
(19:09):
way, Clear Creek is the name ofthe creek that flows through
Golden, Colorado.
And most people would say, Oh, Ihaven't seen that.
But if you've ever watched aCoors commercial, Coors the
beer, and they talk about that.
The Rocky Mountain Springwater,uh, they don't actually show
Clear Creek in that, but theywere referencing Clear Creek
when they talked about thatRocky Mountain Springwater.
But anyway, tell me more aboutClear Creek Behavior Services,
(19:30):
Pam.
Pam (19:30):
Right, well, so of course it got its name because of my
interest in golden and theoutdoors and being by water,
so...
A lot of people think I'maffiliated with the city.
I have to clarify that a lot.
Yeah.
But yeah, so I run a practicewhere I provide consultation
services to families andconsultation services to schools
(19:54):
and in the community in general.
I used to work for one of thecommunity center boards in
Colorado, which is sort of theentry point for services.
And I, oversaw their behavioralhealth team.
And then, um, moved out on myown when my son came to me.
So, um, it's a small practiceand it kind of fluctuates and
(20:17):
how many clients I have based onmy teaching load.
So,
Jonathan (20:21):
well, I think it's really cool that you're teaching
and you're also on the side,you're doing the same things,
right?
I'm sure employing the OBMtechniques and your science and
that feels super powerful.
Pam (20:32):
Yeah.
Helps me kind of practice what Ipreach, I think a little bit.
Jonathan (20:36):
Nice.
I like that.
By the way, I'm going to share.
I don't know if listeners willcare at all, but a fun fact
about Clear Creek coming back toit.
Do you know what its originalname was?
I don't.
No.
I just learned this and I'velived here 11 years.
Um, the original name wasCannonball.
Creek.
And I don't know all the historybehind that.
I will say this because I am anavid craft beer fan.
(20:58):
We have across the street fromour neighborhood Cannonball
Creek Brewery.
Huge shout out to the owner,Jason and his partners, Jonathan
and Brian.
They've been in the communityfor 10 plus years.
They are the only Coloradobrewery.
That has won an award at thegreat American beer festival
every year for a decade.
And they make dank IPAs andpilsners and it's so good.
(21:21):
And my kids like have grown upthere.
So I had to, I had to do a shoutout.
Let's come back to, you spoke soeloquently of the role that
Missy has played for you as amentor, Pam, what should BCBAs
look for in a mentor?
Pam (21:37):
You know, I ask this question to students every
semester, and I have people askme this question a lot, and I
think probably the first thingto look for is someone that you
can have a good rapport with,because you are going to be
inevitably dealing with complexsituations where you have to
have complex conversations,where you are receiving
(21:59):
corrective feedback, and youneed to provide feedback to your
supervisor as well.
So, starting with a goodrapport, I think, is critical.
and finding someone thatrecognizes their own limitations
and their own needs and has thathumility to look to other
mentors, that can model that.
they need mentorship as well, Ithink is critical.
(22:21):
I also think someone that canprovide a good structure to
supervision, so who's wellorganized, has systems in place
to provide supervision, isincredibly valuable because
there's a lot of nuances toproviding supervision, just the
logistics of your forms,understanding the BACB
requirements.
I think having those systems inplace helps that relationship.
(22:44):
Um, Be more functional as youmove through that relationship.
I said someone who is humble,prepared to.
Accept that feedback as well andlearn along the process.
I took a parenting class earlywhen my son was first born that
talked about how to raise, um,kids who are resilient and have
(23:07):
autonomy.
And it talked aboutunderstanding that.
the nuance of when to come inand take charge and provide more
guidance and when to step backand let people learn and
possibly even lead the, youknow, child led instruction.
so I think that relates tosupervision.
(23:27):
If we know when to letsupervisees try and they have a
strong base to kind of move outand try on their own and have
some autonomy, I think that'simportant for us to let.
Supervisors do that and thenunderstand when there's times
that we need to pull back andkind of take charge and help
guide them a little bit more.
So I think that's important.
(23:48):
and then my students always giveme feedback because I ask in
every one of my supervisionclasses, what should we start
doing?
What should we stop doing?
What should we keep doing?
And they talk about feedback inparticular.
that they want from thesupervisees more feedback.
They want feedback to be timelyand they want to see mutual
(24:09):
respect and supervisors beingrespectful of them and their
individual needs.
So I think that's, you know,from a lot of students, that's
kind of some bullet points ofwhat is valuable.
I
Jonathan (24:21):
love that you asked for that feedback, right?
That's the best way I think as aleader.
to create a culture and anorganization and on teams of
feedback is you got to ask forit first, right?
So that's super powerful.
You know, it was really cool.
You know, it resonated with me,Pam, when you described, you've
got to know is a good mentorwhen to lean in and take charge
and then when to step back.
(24:43):
There's a component ofdiscernment there, that's hard
to develop, right?
Like, I don't know, what is thatprocess?
Like, how do you recommendsomeone who's an emerging
leader?
How do you build a repertoire ofdiscernment?
Gosh.
Pam (24:58):
Um, I think there is probably A lot of information
out there to address this, but Ifeel like I really learned that
through trial and error.
I'm not sure if that's the bestway to learn that.
Um, but I do take notes on whatstudents and supervisees have
told me.
And I have started therelationship just modeling that,
(25:20):
like, give me feedback, give mefeedback, give me feedback so
that they do start to feel morecomfortable.
I talked about that.
You have to sort of shape.
the behavior of providingfeedback as well as receiving
feedback.
Um, so kind of systematicallydoing that in your practice, I
think is helpful.
I'm sure there's otherstrategies.
(25:40):
I know that supervision book,that we have in our class is an
excellent book, by LeBlancSellers and I, it's just a great
book, um, with resources for howto be an effective supervisor.
so I think.
Mine was trial and error, butnow I probably look to the
literature more to understandhow to do that, how to set that
(26:03):
up.
It's
Jonathan (26:04):
a great point.
I, I mean, I learned throughtrial and error as well.
Right.
but there are wonderfulresources and you mentioned one
of them.
I mean, that book is seminal,right?
It's just, it's so good, but itgives guidance, right?
Into how to do that moresystematically.
And,
Pam (26:18):
um, yes, maybe you can give the proper shout out to the
authors of that book because thethird author, I can never say.
Jonathan (26:25):
That's right.
Dr.
Allawi, I believe, but I'll puta reference to that book in the
show.
I've got that on my shelf aswell.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You know, the other thing, Pam,I would add on top of that.
And one thing I've learned over,my 25 professional years is to
get a lot better at.
Asking the right questions.
And I think early in my career,and this is probably a function
(26:46):
of insecurity, it would be like,no, I got to show that like I'm
the smartest, right?
I'm the man, the consultant whocomes into a fortune 500 company
at 21, 22 years old.
And so I've got to show that I'mgoing to add value.
But as I've grown older, Irealized it's not about me, like
demonstrating I I'm addingvalue.
It's about me demonstrating.
I understand what someone isgoing through, what they're
experiencing, what their needsare.
(27:06):
And If I can ask those rightquestions to guide them on a
path, that's where it feels mostvaluable.
I don't know how do you thinkabout asking questions?
Pam (27:15):
I think you're so right.
I do, and as you're saying that,I'm thinking that that's how I
start to see behavior analysts,bud in their practice is when
they start working in thatclinical setting and working
with families and other teachersand they start conducting their
assessments and they startlearning how to ask the right
questions, you start to see thathappen across.
Jonathan (27:40):
Yeah.
And it feels like it createsmore trust with family asking as
opposed to trying to assertthings like ask questions and
that's, that, that feels superimportant.
There's another book I'll, I'lldrop it in the show notes, that
I've loved over the years.
It's called the coachingmanager.
And I, Hey, like fulldisclosure, I coach a bunch of
my kids, sports teams fromsoccer, like skiing to
basketball to baseball.
(28:01):
I love being a coach.
And it's cool.
this book came out of Stanford,graduate school of business.
but it talks about thediscipline of as a coaching
manager, quote unquote, how youmake sure you're discerning and
asking the right kinds ofquestions.
And that's felt, powerful to mein my journey.
Oh, I like
Pam (28:19):
that.
I like that.
I'll be interested to look atthat book.
Yeah.
One of the things that I oftensay to my son and his Friends, I
do some literacy work.
Sometimes I volunteer to schoolsometimes, and I always start
off telling the kids So I don'tremember where I heard this long
ago But we have two ears and onemouth so that we can listen
(28:39):
twice as much as we speak.
So I try to Remember that myselfas I because I love to talk.
I love to tell people what I'velearned and help supervise me so
sometimes I have to remember tostep back and listen to
Jonathan (28:52):
Oh, I love, I love that.
I also recently learned, did youknow this?
That, um, silent is an anagramfor listen.
Oh,
Pam (29:05):
that's wonderful.
Jonathan (29:07):
Two years, one mouth silent and listen anagram.
It all goes.
Pam (29:12):
Beautiful.
Jonathan (29:13):
Yes.
Pam, what's one thing every ABAbusiness owner should start
doing and one thing to stopdoing?
Pam (29:20):
You know, I think collaboration is the big thing
we can do as business owners.
We're a fairly young professionin some respects, and I think in
order for us to disseminate thescience, we need to work
together and share our messagetogether and share resources and
knowledge.
And then, I guess conversely,maybe don't act as an island.
(29:43):
We are a part of a much largersystem, and this includes our
behavior analytics system, andthen other systems that could
benefit from the science ofbehavior.
So, um, Remember that we're partof a larger, a larger group.
Jonathan (29:59):
And I like that homage to dissemination, right?
Like, we have an obligation, Ifeel like, to disseminate our
science.
Yes.
So powerful.
Well, Pam, where can people findyou online?
Pam (30:08):
My website is clearcreekbehaviorservices.com
So I'd love to hear feedbackfrom anybody there.
My email is listed on thewebsite.
Jonathan (30:18):
Awesome.
Right on.
And, um, for anyone who'scurrently at Purdue or is
thinking about going, look upPam and, and her class on OBM.
Um, gosh, I would love to takeit someday, Pam.
Pam (30:31):
Yeah.
I'd love to have you, Jonathan.
Jonathan (30:33):
Well, all right.
You ready for the hot takequestions?
I sure am.
Okay, here we go.
You're on your deathbed.
What's the one thing you want tobe remembered for?
Pam (30:41):
You know, I heard a talk by Wayne Dyer once and he used the
quote, don't die with your musicstill in you.
So I think it's, you know, findyour music and, and I think try.
I think the biggest thing Iencourage everybody to do is
just try.
Give it a try.
Try something new.
Try your hardest.
You could apply it in a varietyof different ways, but just try.
(31:04):
And so hopefully I leave trying.
Jonathan (31:07):
I love that.
Don't die with your music stillin you.
I've got goosebumps.
That's powerful.
Yeah.
We have an expression in myfamily, try anything twice, but
I could not agree more.
What's your most important selfcare practice?
Pam (31:23):
You know, I think discipline and time management
are probably a start of thatbecause then it allows me to,
when I have good timemanagement, when I'm disciplined
about my routine, then I canhave time with my family,
exercise, meditate, whichultimately is what kind of helps
me in my self
Jonathan (31:40):
care.
Do you have a favorite song andor music genre?
Pam (31:46):
You know, um, I would say I have a lot of favorite songs,
but one that sort of resonateswith me recently is Scare Away
the Dark by Passenger.
I love the messages, lovewithout fear in your heart.
If we all light up, we can scareaway the dark.
So that's kind of how I feellike I live my life a little
bit.
So,
Jonathan (32:07):
um, Light up, we can scare away the dark.
These are just wisdom nuggetbombs.
What's one thing you'd tell your18 year old self?
Pam (32:19):
Gosh, I think it would be to listen to yourself.
Trust yourself.
I think you know yourself and tohear those inner voices and
follow through with those innervoices.
You're going to be successful ifyou truly trust in yourself.
Jonathan (32:36):
All right.
And if you could only wear onestyle of footwear, what would it
be?
Pam (32:41):
Um, sandals.
Flip flops, but like Chacos, Ithink that I can move around in
Jonathan (32:49):
super versatile.
Um, as are you, Pam, this hasbeen so much fun, my friend and
neighbor.
Thank you for coming on the podand sharing your wisdom.
Pam (32:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
I just love your podcast and youbring on such amazing guests.
So thanks for letting me be apart of it.
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