April 5, 2020 • 33 mins
Irwin Aronson, Partner at Willig, Williams and Davidson shares with Chris Martin and Jon O'Brien of the Building PA Podcast, the many benefits of becoming a member of one of the 16 regional and 15 International building trades organizations throughout the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And welcome to the next edition episode, if you
will, of the buildingPennsylvania podcast, a podcast
that is specific to theconstruction industry in
Pennsylvania.
My name is Chris Martin and I'mwith Atlas marketing, where we
tell stories for people whobuild things.
And with me is my partner.
Hello, John O'Brian herechecking in John from the
(00:23):
Keystone contractors associationand ready to rock and roll for
another episode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have a real exciting, uh,very energetic, uh, interviewer
with us today.
Erwin Aronson with the law firmof Willig Williams and Davidson,
uh, are one's a partner inresidence and Irwin.
(00:43):
Thank you for joining us.
Welcome.
Uh, can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and the firm?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Sure.
Be happy to thanks for havingus.
First of all, I appreciate beinghere and particularly being with
my old friend, John, who, uh,does things that are so
admirable that I am touched bythem every day, um, are from, is
just the way you paid me to sayit, right?
Absolutely.
You nailed it.
Our firm, um, concentrates itspractice in labor employment and
(01:14):
employee benefit law.
And I concentrate my practicewithin the firm precisely in
that space.
Um, I typically for ethicalreasons, I don't discuss who my
clients are, but a few of themare pretty well known.
Um, and my clients haveidentified me or pointed me out
as their lawyers.
So I can name those, um, I'mgeneral counsel of the
(01:37):
Pennsylvania AFL CIO, and I'mgeneral counsel to the
Pennsylvania state building andconstruction trades council of
unions.
Um, as, as well as a number ofboth of those organizations,
local and regional affiliatesthroughout Pennsylvania, and the
work that I do ranges fromrepresenting labor organizations
(01:58):
in collective bargaining ingrievance arbitration and in
litigation and before both thenational labor relations board.
And in other instances,particularly in the public
sector, the Pennsylvania laborrelations board, but a very
significant portion of mypractice as well as in the
representation of employeebenefit funds, typically jointly
(02:22):
trusteed labor management fundsin the space of pension and
retirement plans associatedannuity plans, health and
welfare plans that providehealthcare and other insurance
benefits to workers and theirfamilies and joint jointly
(02:45):
trusteed training anddevelopment programs,
particularly in the building andconstruction trades where we
train both apprentices andjourney people in their various
trades ranging from layers tocarpenters, to elevator
constructors, to electricians,the plumbers, pipe fitters,
(03:05):
welders painters, paper hangers,other finishing trades, travel
trades, um, like tile settersand show on, uh, the entire
gamut of, of, uh, building andconstruction trades training
programs.
And those typically just likethe employee benefit plans are
jointly sponsored labormanagement committees.
(03:27):
And I'm blessed that, um, I'mnot only trusted by the union
sides of those equations, butalso typically by the employer
and employer, um, organization,uh, association sides of those
as well.
So that's basically the areas inwhich I try to work and I've
been doing it for a while.
I'm um, um, at this for a littleover 40 years now, so I'm
(03:51):
beginning to learn it and that'swhy I still call it practice, I
guess what,
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Let me ask you this and then I'm going to back away
and let John do it.
Has who I know has a lot ofquestions real quick.
Why should young people in ourindustry, why should they even
care about a trust fund or, ortheir, their employment packages
or let's, how can we frame thatfor our young listeners that are
(04:19):
out there thinking, well, why doI want to listen to Erwin today?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Well, why I want to listen to Erwin today is a very
different question from the onethat you initially teed up.
Um, I've listened to me fordecades and I would pass on that
anytime.
But that's another story whyyoung people should be looking
at what we're talking abouttoday has literally a plethora
of reasons and rationales.
(04:46):
First of all, um, people get anopportunity to be trained in a
trade or a vocation, um, that ishighly skilled and high and high
demand in every single instancethroughout the gambit of the
trades that I mentioned and more, um, and they get to do get
(05:07):
that training to have access tothat training, not only tuition
free, and it is completelytuition free, but without any
debt on the other side.
And they walk away after four orfive years of training,
depending upon the trade with aticket as a journey person.
And that journey person ticketallows them to go anywhere in
(05:30):
the world, literally andpractice their craft.
They have complete portabilityof their skillset because that's
something that once attained cannever be taken away on top of
all of that really wonderfulreality contrasted for example,
with the college experience thatI had, where I got the
(05:51):
opportunity to sit in aclassroom and pay tuition.
And at the other end of that payoff student loans for about
decade.
Um, are there other practicalrealities?
These jobs are family sustainingfrom day one, typically an
entering in a pre enteringapprentice in one of the
recognized traditional buildingconstruction trades and crafts
(06:15):
is earning while she or he islearning and starts out as an 18
year old or 17 year old newapprentice at about 50% of the
journey person's rate.
And over the course of four tofive years maximum achieve the
full journey person rate.
But in addition to that from dayone, these folks are eligible
(06:38):
for health care benefits thatnot only cover the worker, but
cover his or her family, spouse,children, et cetera, and are
accumulating credits forpensions, the, and, and
annuities that, um, really takentogether, put people in a
position by the time they're aroughly age, 50 55 to be able to
(07:01):
retire with a combination ofbenefits that is very close to
what their full time earningsare.
And there are very fewalternatives in the academic
path, which traditionally knownas the academic path that are
the equal of what I've justdescribed.
And they, of course all carrytuition bills and loan repayment
(07:23):
plans with them.
So this is really something thatmy parents' generation
understood my generation didn'tunderstand, and this new
generation that's coming up nowis beginning to get it.
And it's all enhanced rathertremendously by another
practical reality, the recessionof 2008, 2009 had several
(07:48):
impacts.
And one of them was that itwinnowed out a number of people
that were coming close to theend of their careers in the
building trades.
And now we have a real need, ahigh demand for qualified
applicants and qualifiedapprentices for whom there will
be a lifetime career once theycome, once they apply, get
admitted to and complete anapprenticeship and training
(08:10):
program.
So to my way of thinking, thisis not merely a meaningful
alternative to an academic andcollege career.
It is in many foundational waysuperior because you earn while
you learn and you have securitythat no corollary brings because
there's a skillset, it being acarpenter or a millwright being
(08:34):
an electrician or a plumber or apipe fitter, or a sprinkler
fitter or a welder that is justnot the same as having a
bachelor of arts in philosophy.
And the liberal
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Agreed, agreed.
And we've been, uh, fortunateduring our early early stages of
this building PA podcast to havemany, uh, training, join us and
talk about the various tradesand the various trainings that
happen within their, uh, withintheir own trade, in their own
craft, I think, and maybe I'mwrong here, but I think, um, the
(09:10):
young apprentices and thoseindividuals thinking of entering
a tray, I think they understandthat the training aspect and
they, they know they're going toget like an excellent hands on
education, but it's the hub.
The other, other benefits that Idon't think they grasp,
especially at a younger age,like 18, uh, you know, early
(09:31):
twenties as far as pensionmedical.
And I don't know what youropinion is, but I think we need
to do a better job of promotingthat.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I dunno.
Well, I think that on one hand,we, we all need to do a better
job in communicating it.
Um, but not really communicatingit in the context of it's out
there.
This is available, butcommunicating it in the context
that people are, they're a fewyears older than that newly
admitted high school graduate,uh, identify with quite
(09:59):
differently every, every 18 yearold that I've ever met,
including the four that I raised, um, or had a hand in raising
my wife, raised them.
I just showed up.
I think, um, the, the, thepractical reality is they're all
immortal, um, until they're not.
And, um,
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Wait, you mean, that goes away.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I understand that it goes away, but I, you know, I,
I, I know John the ages of yourkids.
So I, I know I kind of hazard to, uh, give you a prediction
Speaker 3 (10:32):
When that happened.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
In my instance, there is a, this shock that took
place.
And I describe it, um, withrespect to my daughter who, um,
is an adult now and has a coupleof kids of her own who never
really thought about the valueof health insurance until she
developed a, a very significantseries of adult onset allergies,
(10:58):
which kept her from being ableto eat any number of foods
ranging from citrus products, toproducts, with eggs, to
products, with dairy, toproducts, with wheat, and that
testing that she went throughuntil we got to a point of
understanding what that was cost, literally hundreds of
(11:19):
thousands of dollars.
And this took place when she wasa new, recent, um, enter, enter
into the workforce.
And she was fortunate that shehad a job that had health
insurance for which she waspaying a significant
out-of-pocket premium and had abig deductible.
(11:40):
And all of a sudden it grabbed,grabbed her attention in a way
that she had never contemplatedbefore.
And then only a couple of yearslater when she became pregnant
with her first child.
And again, was with the medicalworld and learning what the cost
of a normal pregnancy is.
She became quite grateful forthat health insurance benefit
(12:02):
that was there now in thebuilding trades that we were
just talking about a couple ofminutes ago, everybody from the
newest apprentice to the mostsenior journey person after an
immediate or very short periodof time is eligible for these
benefits at no out of pocketcosts, other than, uh, it,
depending upon the trade and theparticular plan, a handful of
(12:24):
rather minimal deductibles orcopays co-insurance kinds of
things.
And they tend to be very broadprograms that cover not only
medical, but prescriptioncoverage, dental coverage, Vinet
vision coverage, and often anumber of other kinds of things,
as well as life insurance.
And for somebody that's a wageearner who, um, has a misfortune
(12:46):
and suffers or premature deathfamilies are really very
dependent upon those lifeinsurance proceeds as well.
So this is really an amazingpiece of this puzzle that young
people tend not to considereither because their families
have provided healthcare forthem as they've grown up, or
(13:06):
they have been covered by one ofthe areas, public sponsored
programs like chip the, um, thechildren's health insurance
program sponsored by the state.
The other piece of this puzzleis a retirement plan again,
because we're all immortal whenwe're young.
We don't think about being ableto support and sustain ourselves
when going to work every day isno longer as easy and option
(13:31):
either because of age or becauseof disability.
And all of these tradessponsored programs.
These jointly trusteed labor andmanagement benefit programs have
a feature of both age basedretirement, typically 62 in a
few cases, 65, 66, and in somecases as young as 55 with full
(13:55):
retirement, but they also have adisability retirement feature
that is not age based at all,but based upon when a, a, an
unanticipated illness or anunanticipated event results in
somebody not being able to workat their traditional trade or
craft, and they become disabledand they become eligible under
(14:15):
these programs for a pension,that's the same as what it would
have been had.
They reached normal retirementage.
And again, this is anextraordinary benefit for
individuals and also forfamilies, particularly families
with dependent children.
So these features are there, andthey're baked into these trades
and crafts along with thetraining that we've described.
(14:39):
And along with the career, Imean, I, I, I know any number of
sheet metal workers, plumbers,fitters, electricians, who are
easily earning 80, a hundredthousand dollars a year, plus
the benefits and the benefitsthat I've just described can be
worth easily out of cost 25 to$35,000 a year.
(15:03):
And then some, and, um, that's,that's more than competitive
with alternative careers.
And as I say, there's people geta skill set that no one can take
away from it.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah.
That's for sure.
Yeah.
Now, now with my role within theKCA and the industry, I'm more
familiar with the generaltrades, you know,
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Carpenters, laborers, carpenters, laborers, brickies.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Absolutely.
And it seems as though amongstthose crafts and those trades,
the average age of theapprentice entering the average
age of entering apprentices,upper upper twenties,
Speaker 2 (15:41):
That, that that's my experience as well.
More recently that the typicalis someone who has been out of
school.
Um, often somebody who has goneto college and frequently
someone who is not, but has hadanother career or another
vocational based career andfinds the laborers, for example,
one that you and I get to workon together frequently, um,
(16:03):
finds the carpenters, finds themillwrights, um, finds the
travel trades and signs up.
And those people who are intheir late twenties into their
early thirties are folks whotypically already have a family
and find that as an enteringapprentice, they have an
opportunity to have a familysustaining job right away, um,
(16:28):
more so than the jobs that theyare leaving and they get a
career.
I have a story about this, and Idon't know, John, if I've ever
told you this, how I ended upbeing, how I ended up being a
lawyer.
Um, back when I was a youngster,26 years of age, I had applied
for an apprenticeship in the,uh, electrical workers union,
(16:49):
um, in Harrisburg and thebusiness manager, uh, business
agent at the time who wassomebody with whom I was
acquainted because of othercareer activities in which I had
engaged at that point, um,called me in for an interview.
And he sat me down and he said,Erwin, you're among the best
candidates for an apprenticeshipthat we've ever had during my
time as a business agent.
(17:10):
Um, and I, at that point I hadcompleted college.
I had a bachelor's degree fromPenn state, and I still wanted
to do this because I recognizethat while I had a bachelor's
degree, I had absolutely nomarketable skills.
And at that time, um, there wasan interesting phenomenon that
took place.
Uh, this was long enough agothat we did not have age
(17:31):
discrimination and employmentstatutes on the books.
So as this gentleman describedhow great I was and told me that
he indeed assumed that if headmitted me into the program, it
wouldn't be too much longerbefore I'd be running for his
job either to succeed him or tobeat him.
Um, which, which would not havebeen the case, but that's a
sidelight.
(17:51):
He said, we can't take you in,we can't take you because you're
26.
And we have a rule in place thatsays, we won't accept anybody.
Who's over 25 years of agebecause we want to get a career
out of you.
Um, and so in those days, 25 wasthe cutoff for all of the highly
skilled trades, but also for the, uh, for the basic trades, like
(18:14):
, um, carpenters and millwrightsand, um, floor layers, the soft
floors, as well as, um, woodenfloor layers, um, that has since
changed because the law haschanged and the organizations
have changed.
And the relationship between theemployer, contractors and the
unions have changed.
The result has been that peoplewho are a bit older than I was
(18:35):
at that time regularly apply forand regularly are admitted into
apprenticeship and trainingprograms that all of the trades,
and they get a career and it maynot be a 40 year career like I
was looking at at that time.
Um, but I ended up going to lawschool because, um, George
Segall at the time out of theIBW denied me admission into the
IB EEW.
(18:55):
Otherwise right now I'd be anelectrician and try to figure
out how to collect my pensionbecause I'd be old enough,
unlike a lawyer who never quit.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Okay.
Interesting.
I never knew that about the age.
So what year are we talkingabout, like what timeframe
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That would have been roughly 1980, 81, somewhere in
that range.
Okay.
So I, uh, I went to law schoolfrom 1980 to 1982, but from,
from the, the fall of 80 throughthe spring of 82, um, and that
was after I'd been out ofcollege for 10 years.
I spent that 10 years working atthe Pennsylvania AFL CIO in
(19:32):
various capacities.
Um, uh, during that time, aftermy own union, the service
employees in Pittsburgh hadloaned me to the AFL CIO.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yeah.
Also amongst, uh, all thevarious trust funds and
different funds that you sit on.
Do you, do you feel, or, um, doyou think some of them do it
better as far as communicatingthe benefits to the, to the
general public?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I think that some learn from, yeah, I think that
some do, and if there's nopattern to it, we might have,
um, a bricklayers fund inPittsburgh be very communicative
or attractive.
I know that there's a pipetrades fund in Pittsburgh that
is really on the cutting edge oftraining.
(20:18):
They just built a newexceptional training facility.
That's been open for about ayear.
Um, and they are advertising onTV attracting very high quality
apprentices.
But I also know in, um, centraland North central Pennsylvania,
the laborers, um, and the, uh,and, and the contractors
(20:40):
association, the KCA areattracting a significant number
of apprentices to becomeconstruction, craft laborers,
and go through that training.
And, and that's, um, arelatively young apprenticeable
trade.
It's only been about 24, 25years that we had such a thing
as an apprenticeship andtraining program for
construction craft laborers.
(21:02):
I was party to the applicationand approval by the state of the
Pennsylvania stateapprenticeship and training
council for the very firstlaborers' training program.
And that is one that issponsored jointly by KCA and the
laborers' district council ofEastern Pennsylvania.
And they're attracting people.
(21:23):
Part of it is industry-based.
So, um, down in central Southcentral Pennsylvania in
Chambersburg, right now, thereis a very significant solar
power plant being built.
And there is a need forelectrical workers, both
journeymen and apprentices.
(21:43):
And there has been somesignificant outreach there at a
recognition that when somebodygets a chance to work on this
job, it's on the cutting edge ofrenewable power sources.
And the training they get inworking on that job will be
training that will serve people,particularly younger people for
an entire career in somethingthat government agencies and,
(22:07):
um, environmental organizations,as well as typical large
construction project owners,like Penn state university, um,
like major hospitals, um, andlike government agencies will be
seeking out.
And those skills will servethose young people for a career.
(22:27):
And they will get theopportunity to learn those skill
sets while being paid a verygood wage and earning those
benefits we talked about andhelping to sustain the training
program for a coming generationthat's yet to be identified all
good stuff.
(22:47):
So there's, there's just a lotgoing on out there.
And I see it every day we havein Pennsylvania that the reality
of a growing gas industry andthe pipelines that go along with
that.
And while some people haveexpressed some understandable
concerns about the pipelineconstruction for another
(23:08):
generation of us, these arefamily sustaining jobs.
Once again, with familysustaining wages, but much more
significantly their jobs onwhich people learn skillsets
that serve them for a career,not just for a job
Speaker 4 (23:24):
[inaudible].
Speaker 1 (23:24):
So what'd you say, Chris, are you sold or is there
a certain trade you're lookingto add?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I mean, the age, the age was lifted so
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Well, unfortunately I'm 48, so, uh, I'm probably not
going to be a good, uh, a goodfit based on that, but, um,
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Your in and I will sponsor you myself.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Well, thank you, Ron, when I'm in man, you know, it
funny story as well.
And that point, um, I startedmy, my company, um, 11 years
ago.
And at the time we had beenworking with a lot with the iron
workers and we still do.
And, um, my wife, you know,start the company in 2008, which
(24:01):
great time to start the company.
My wife says to me, well, what'syour plan B?
And I said, well, worst casescenario I'll become an iron
worker.
I don't think she stoppedlaughing since she keeps reminds
me of that.
Every day I have this,
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Excuse me, I'm sorry for dropping.
I have this wonderful sort of,um, idiosyncratic story.
A very dear friend of mine wasthe, for many years, the state
director of the railroad unionshere in Pennsylvania.
Um, and he was more than aclient.
(24:39):
Uh, and his son was bornliterally two days before my
daughter was born and his sonwent to school in Harrisburg and
graduated high school withhonors, went to Duquesne
university, got himself abachelor's degree in marketing.
He went back to Duquesne and gota master's degree in education
(25:02):
and had planned on being ateacher.
And he ended up getting a job asan instructor in the academic
side of a welding program thatthe pipe trade unions out in the
Pittsburgh area had sponsoredalong with a company called
Maglev incorporated.
And in the process, this youngman became exposed to a number
(25:28):
of folks who were in the boilermakers union and had been
trained on precision weldingtechniques.
And he became so enamored ofthem that he applied for and was
admitted to the boilermakersapprenticeship and training
program out in the Pittsburgharea.
This is a young man with abachelor's and a master's
degree.
He went through thatapprenticeship training program
(25:51):
became the number one boilermaker, welding apprentice in the
country in his fourth year of afive year program.
And has since had a career wherehe has literally traveled all
over the world on welding jobs.
He's been of course, up inAlaska on that pipeline work,
both working in training people.
He's been all over the middleEast on pipeline work.
(26:13):
He's been throughout Asia.
He's been throughout most ofEurope and he's been in South
America and even in Australia.
Um, and he is earning whateverhe really feels like earning as
much as he feels like earning.
He has already been vested in apension program at the ripe
young age of 39.
(26:34):
And, um, he has an extraordinaryhealthcare program and can
basically name his own tickets.
He is among the highest workersthat I've ever met, and he earns
well into the six figures anyyear that he chooses to good for
him.
We should have him on the show.
Yeah, we can arrange that.
(26:56):
We can arrange that.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
W we've done a lot of work with the boilermakers and I
can, I can attest to that fromtheir international work and
their travelers fund and the waythat they support that, uh, the
opportunities that aren't justhere in the United States, but
all over the world.
I know there was a, there's alot of, uh, there's a big local
growing in Puerto Rico, actuallywith all the issues that have
(27:20):
been facing there, uh, on, inPuerto Rico.
So you're absolutely right.
And it's not just theboilermakers.
It's, it's every tray,
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's every one of the trades.
I mean, one of the fascinatingand unique things I've alluded
to this earlier in thisconversation that people secure
a skill set through our trainingprograms that no one can take
away from them.
And part of the reality is in,um, in two instances, one is
when you're living in theNortheastern United States or in
the, uh, in the Northern part ofthe central United States, and
(27:53):
the weather gets cold, you havethose skills.
And if you want to work inFlorida or work in Arizona, you
have to pick up the phone or yousend out an email to the sister,
local union in your trade inthose areas and see if they need
people.
And more often than not, you geta referral and you can work as a
(28:13):
traveler in those areas andavoid the cold weather if that's
your interest, or if you want tosee some spot on the planet that
is just intriguing as all getout to you.
And, and that's the way that is.
You make the appropriatecontact, you make the
appropriate phone call.
And these folks, folks refer toone another as brother for a
(28:34):
reason, and they treat oneanother like brothers, um, and
they make space and they make,um, um, um, time for this to
happen.
And typically all of thesehealthcare and pension and
annuity and training funds havewhat they refer to in the
industry as reciprocityagreements.
So you earn the access to yourbenefits in one location, but it
(29:00):
is the funds are sent to yourhome area so that you don't have
any lapse in benefit eligibilityor investing for a pension.
And the benefits themselves arecompletely portable in this
respect.
So that's another aspect whenone works for an individual
company with an individualemployer sponsoring your
healthcare plan.
(29:20):
If you lose your job, you loseyour benefits in these trades.
If you get laid off because of ashort term, lack of work, your
benefits continue.
Typically when you're workingactively, you are in benefit
credits, show that during aperiod of unemployment, whether
it's unemployment because ofsome structural issue or
unemployment, because you justfeel like working for a period
(29:42):
of time, you want to knock offfor a week or two for hunting
season, for example, yourbenefits, don't lapse, your
benefits don't get canceled.
They, they travel with you andthey're completely portable, um,
both for traveling and work inboth and in terms of, uh,
periods of layoff or downturn.
So it's another feature thatpeople just don't realize.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah.
Another great benefit.
So I know, uh, KCA will continueto the beat, the drum and really
promote these hidden benefitsand make sure it's well
communicated to the, to themasses.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well, you know, one of the, one of the realities is
that, um, the unions that KCHmembers have relationships with
and KCS members have a trulysymbiotic relationship that
they'll get into a wrestlingmatch here and there over what
these rates should be.
But the rates ultimately arecollectively bargained and
(30:35):
nobody is getting forced to paymore than the, uh, than the
economy locally can, can bear.
And the unions and the employerswork together jointly to assure
that admission to crafts isbased upon what they anticipate
will be the actual industryneeds.
(30:55):
So there aren't too many extraapprentices and too many extra
journeymen that are competingfor work.
The work is there, um, based onthe estimates and, um, they work
in tandem.
Uh, just earlier today, I wasworking on a piece of
legislation known as house bill1100, that would provide some
specialized tax benefits forbuilding another, um,
(31:20):
petrochemical plant up in theNorth Eastern part of
Pennsylvania.
And I was working with a groupof contractors as well as a
group of union folks, standingshoulder to shoulder and working
arm and arm to, um, get thegeneral assembly of Pennsylvania
to attend, to and pass thelegislation that will enable
this to happen.
(31:40):
And it's a ton of jobs inPennsylvania, but it's also a
ton of tax income.
And it's also a ton of real andmeaningful profits for
contractors who successfully bidand get that work.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Well, thank you for your efforts there.
I'm hearing leadership is slowlycoming around.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Nope.
Nobody ever explained it so wellbefore.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yes.
On behalf of the industry.
Thank you.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
It really is a pleasure to, uh,to work jointly that's uh, yeah,
so many times in my world, it'san antagonistic relationship,
but in this piece of my world,it really never is antagonistic.
It's really a joint effort.
And that's why I emphasize thesejointly true trusteed, uh,
training programs and jointlytrusteed healthcare programs and
(32:28):
jointly trusteed apprenticeshipand training programs, because
that's the deal.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Absolutely.
It's teamwork.
It's all about teamwork and, uh,yeah.
Behalf of management in KCA.
I'd like to just thank you forall your hard work over the
years, and we'd like to keeppicking your brain and bring you
back on the show from time totime.
Well, I'm happy to come back.
Um, I have an intimateunderstanding of what's in that
brain and there isn't much, butit's all yours.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Okay.
Oh, when thank you so much foryour time today and thank you
for everyone listening, beprepared.
Cause we have a lot more comingfrom the building PA podcast, uh
, more episodes to call aboutinteresting and useful
information such as this.
So thank you, whirlwind.
Thank you, John.
And we'll be you're welcome.
(33:20):
Thank you very much.
Have a great day, everybody.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Alright.
We'll see ya.
And welcome to the next edition episode, if you
will, of the buildingPennsylvania podcast, a podcast
that is specific to theconstruction industry in
Pennsylvania.
My name is Chris Martin and I'mwith Atlas marketing, where we
tell stories for people whobuild things.
And with me is my partner.
Hello, John O'Brian herechecking in John from the
(00:23):
Keystone contractors associationand ready to rock and roll for
another episode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have a real exciting, uh,very energetic, uh, interviewer
with us today.
Erwin Aronson with the law firmof Willig Williams and Davidson,
uh, are one's a partner inresidence and Irwin.
(00:43):
Thank you for joining us.
Welcome.
Uh, can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and the firm?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Sure.
Be happy to thanks for havingus.
First of all, I appreciate beinghere and particularly being with
my old friend, John, who, uh,does things that are so
admirable that I am touched bythem every day, um, are from, is
just the way you paid me to sayit, right?
Absolutely.
You nailed it.
Our firm, um, concentrates itspractice in labor employment and
(01:14):
employee benefit law.
And I concentrate my practicewithin the firm precisely in
that space.
Um, I typically for ethicalreasons, I don't discuss who my
clients are, but a few of themare pretty well known.
Um, and my clients haveidentified me or pointed me out
as their lawyers.
So I can name those, um, I'mgeneral counsel of the
(01:37):
Pennsylvania AFL CIO, and I'mgeneral counsel to the
Pennsylvania state building andconstruction trades council of
unions.
Um, as, as well as a number ofboth of those organizations,
local and regional affiliatesthroughout Pennsylvania, and the
work that I do ranges fromrepresenting labor organizations
(01:58):
in collective bargaining ingrievance arbitration and in
litigation and before both thenational labor relations board.
And in other instances,particularly in the public
sector, the Pennsylvania laborrelations board, but a very
significant portion of mypractice as well as in the
representation of employeebenefit funds, typically jointly
(02:22):
trusteed labor management fundsin the space of pension and
retirement plans associatedannuity plans, health and
welfare plans that providehealthcare and other insurance
benefits to workers and theirfamilies and joint jointly
(02:45):
trusteed training anddevelopment programs,
particularly in the building andconstruction trades where we
train both apprentices andjourney people in their various
trades ranging from layers tocarpenters, to elevator
constructors, to electricians,the plumbers, pipe fitters,
(03:05):
welders painters, paper hangers,other finishing trades, travel
trades, um, like tile settersand show on, uh, the entire
gamut of, of, uh, building andconstruction trades training
programs.
And those typically just likethe employee benefit plans are
jointly sponsored labormanagement committees.
(03:27):
And I'm blessed that, um, I'mnot only trusted by the union
sides of those equations, butalso typically by the employer
and employer, um, organization,uh, association sides of those
as well.
So that's basically the areas inwhich I try to work and I've
been doing it for a while.
I'm um, um, at this for a littleover 40 years now, so I'm
(03:51):
beginning to learn it and that'swhy I still call it practice, I
guess what,
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Let me ask you this and then I'm going to back away
and let John do it.
Has who I know has a lot ofquestions real quick.
Why should young people in ourindustry, why should they even
care about a trust fund or, ortheir, their employment packages
or let's, how can we frame thatfor our young listeners that are
(04:19):
out there thinking, well, why doI want to listen to Erwin today?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Well, why I want to listen to Erwin today is a very
different question from the onethat you initially teed up.
Um, I've listened to me fordecades and I would pass on that
anytime.
But that's another story whyyoung people should be looking
at what we're talking abouttoday has literally a plethora
of reasons and rationales.
(04:46):
First of all, um, people get anopportunity to be trained in a
trade or a vocation, um, that ishighly skilled and high and high
demand in every single instancethroughout the gambit of the
trades that I mentioned and more, um, and they get to do get
(05:07):
that training to have access tothat training, not only tuition
free, and it is completelytuition free, but without any
debt on the other side.
And they walk away after four orfive years of training,
depending upon the trade with aticket as a journey person.
And that journey person ticketallows them to go anywhere in
(05:30):
the world, literally andpractice their craft.
They have complete portabilityof their skillset because that's
something that once attained cannever be taken away on top of
all of that really wonderfulreality contrasted for example,
with the college experience thatI had, where I got the
(05:51):
opportunity to sit in aclassroom and pay tuition.
And at the other end of that payoff student loans for about
decade.
Um, are there other practicalrealities?
These jobs are family sustainingfrom day one, typically an
entering in a pre enteringapprentice in one of the
recognized traditional buildingconstruction trades and crafts
(06:15):
is earning while she or he islearning and starts out as an 18
year old or 17 year old newapprentice at about 50% of the
journey person's rate.
And over the course of four tofive years maximum achieve the
full journey person rate.
But in addition to that from dayone, these folks are eligible
(06:38):
for health care benefits thatnot only cover the worker, but
cover his or her family, spouse,children, et cetera, and are
accumulating credits forpensions, the, and, and
annuities that, um, really takentogether, put people in a
position by the time they're aroughly age, 50 55 to be able to
(07:01):
retire with a combination ofbenefits that is very close to
what their full time earningsare.
And there are very fewalternatives in the academic
path, which traditionally knownas the academic path that are
the equal of what I've justdescribed.
And they, of course all carrytuition bills and loan repayment
(07:23):
plans with them.
So this is really something thatmy parents' generation
understood my generation didn'tunderstand, and this new
generation that's coming up nowis beginning to get it.
And it's all enhanced rathertremendously by another
practical reality, the recessionof 2008, 2009 had several
(07:48):
impacts.
And one of them was that itwinnowed out a number of people
that were coming close to theend of their careers in the
building trades.
And now we have a real need, ahigh demand for qualified
applicants and qualifiedapprentices for whom there will
be a lifetime career once theycome, once they apply, get
admitted to and complete anapprenticeship and training
(08:10):
program.
So to my way of thinking, thisis not merely a meaningful
alternative to an academic andcollege career.
It is in many foundational waysuperior because you earn while
you learn and you have securitythat no corollary brings because
there's a skillset, it being acarpenter or a millwright being
(08:34):
an electrician or a plumber or apipe fitter, or a sprinkler
fitter or a welder that is justnot the same as having a
bachelor of arts in philosophy.
And the liberal
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Agreed, agreed.
And we've been, uh, fortunateduring our early early stages of
this building PA podcast to havemany, uh, training, join us and
talk about the various tradesand the various trainings that
happen within their, uh, withintheir own trade, in their own
craft, I think, and maybe I'mwrong here, but I think, um, the
(09:10):
young apprentices and thoseindividuals thinking of entering
a tray, I think they understandthat the training aspect and
they, they know they're going toget like an excellent hands on
education, but it's the hub.
The other, other benefits that Idon't think they grasp,
especially at a younger age,like 18, uh, you know, early
(09:31):
twenties as far as pensionmedical.
And I don't know what youropinion is, but I think we need
to do a better job of promotingthat.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I dunno.
Well, I think that on one hand,we, we all need to do a better
job in communicating it.
Um, but not really communicatingit in the context of it's out
there.
This is available, butcommunicating it in the context
that people are, they're a fewyears older than that newly
admitted high school graduate,uh, identify with quite
(09:59):
differently every, every 18 yearold that I've ever met,
including the four that I raised, um, or had a hand in raising
my wife, raised them.
I just showed up.
I think, um, the, the, thepractical reality is they're all
immortal, um, until they're not.
And, um,
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Wait, you mean, that goes away.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
I understand that it goes away, but I, you know, I,
I, I know John the ages of yourkids.
So I, I know I kind of hazard to, uh, give you a prediction
Speaker 3 (10:32):
When that happened.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
In my instance, there is a, this shock that took
place.
And I describe it, um, withrespect to my daughter who, um,
is an adult now and has a coupleof kids of her own who never
really thought about the valueof health insurance until she
developed a, a very significantseries of adult onset allergies,
(10:58):
which kept her from being ableto eat any number of foods
ranging from citrus products, toproducts, with eggs, to
products, with dairy, toproducts, with wheat, and that
testing that she went throughuntil we got to a point of
understanding what that was cost, literally hundreds of
(11:19):
thousands of dollars.
And this took place when she wasa new, recent, um, enter, enter
into the workforce.
And she was fortunate that shehad a job that had health
insurance for which she waspaying a significant
out-of-pocket premium and had abig deductible.
(11:40):
And all of a sudden it grabbed,grabbed her attention in a way
that she had never contemplatedbefore.
And then only a couple of yearslater when she became pregnant
with her first child.
And again, was with the medicalworld and learning what the cost
of a normal pregnancy is.
She became quite grateful forthat health insurance benefit
(12:02):
that was there now in thebuilding trades that we were
just talking about a couple ofminutes ago, everybody from the
newest apprentice to the mostsenior journey person after an
immediate or very short periodof time is eligible for these
benefits at no out of pocketcosts, other than, uh, it,
depending upon the trade and theparticular plan, a handful of
(12:24):
rather minimal deductibles orcopays co-insurance kinds of
things.
And they tend to be very broadprograms that cover not only
medical, but prescriptioncoverage, dental coverage, Vinet
vision coverage, and often anumber of other kinds of things,
as well as life insurance.
And for somebody that's a wageearner who, um, has a misfortune
(12:46):
and suffers or premature deathfamilies are really very
dependent upon those lifeinsurance proceeds as well.
So this is really an amazingpiece of this puzzle that young
people tend not to considereither because their families
have provided healthcare forthem as they've grown up, or
(13:06):
they have been covered by one ofthe areas, public sponsored
programs like chip the, um, thechildren's health insurance
program sponsored by the state.
The other piece of this puzzleis a retirement plan again,
because we're all immortal whenwe're young.
We don't think about being ableto support and sustain ourselves
when going to work every day isno longer as easy and option
(13:31):
either because of age or becauseof disability.
And all of these tradessponsored programs.
These jointly trusteed labor andmanagement benefit programs have
a feature of both age basedretirement, typically 62 in a
few cases, 65, 66, and in somecases as young as 55 with full
(13:55):
retirement, but they also have adisability retirement feature
that is not age based at all,but based upon when a, a, an
unanticipated illness or anunanticipated event results in
somebody not being able to workat their traditional trade or
craft, and they become disabledand they become eligible under
(14:15):
these programs for a pension,that's the same as what it would
have been had.
They reached normal retirementage.
And again, this is anextraordinary benefit for
individuals and also forfamilies, particularly families
with dependent children.
So these features are there, andthey're baked into these trades
and crafts along with thetraining that we've described.
(14:39):
And along with the career, Imean, I, I, I know any number of
sheet metal workers, plumbers,fitters, electricians, who are
easily earning 80, a hundredthousand dollars a year, plus
the benefits and the benefitsthat I've just described can be
worth easily out of cost 25 to$35,000 a year.
(15:03):
And then some, and, um, that's,that's more than competitive
with alternative careers.
And as I say, there's people geta skill set that no one can take
away from it.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Yeah.
That's for sure.
Yeah.
Now, now with my role within theKCA and the industry, I'm more
familiar with the generaltrades, you know,
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Carpenters, laborers, carpenters, laborers, brickies.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Absolutely.
And it seems as though amongstthose crafts and those trades,
the average age of theapprentice entering the average
age of entering apprentices,upper upper twenties,
Speaker 2 (15:41):
That, that that's my experience as well.
More recently that the typicalis someone who has been out of
school.
Um, often somebody who has goneto college and frequently
someone who is not, but has hadanother career or another
vocational based career andfinds the laborers, for example,
one that you and I get to workon together frequently, um,
(16:03):
finds the carpenters, finds themillwrights, um, finds the
travel trades and signs up.
And those people who are intheir late twenties into their
early thirties are folks whotypically already have a family
and find that as an enteringapprentice, they have an
opportunity to have a familysustaining job right away, um,
(16:28):
more so than the jobs that theyare leaving and they get a
career.
I have a story about this, and Idon't know, John, if I've ever
told you this, how I ended upbeing, how I ended up being a
lawyer.
Um, back when I was a youngster,26 years of age, I had applied
for an apprenticeship in the,uh, electrical workers union,
(16:49):
um, in Harrisburg and thebusiness manager, uh, business
agent at the time who wassomebody with whom I was
acquainted because of othercareer activities in which I had
engaged at that point, um,called me in for an interview.
And he sat me down and he said,Erwin, you're among the best
candidates for an apprenticeshipthat we've ever had during my
time as a business agent.
(17:10):
Um, and I, at that point I hadcompleted college.
I had a bachelor's degree fromPenn state, and I still wanted
to do this because I recognizethat while I had a bachelor's
degree, I had absolutely nomarketable skills.
And at that time, um, there wasan interesting phenomenon that
took place.
Uh, this was long enough agothat we did not have age
(17:31):
discrimination and employmentstatutes on the books.
So as this gentleman describedhow great I was and told me that
he indeed assumed that if headmitted me into the program, it
wouldn't be too much longerbefore I'd be running for his
job either to succeed him or tobeat him.
Um, which, which would not havebeen the case, but that's a
sidelight.
(17:51):
He said, we can't take you in,we can't take you because you're
26.
And we have a rule in place thatsays, we won't accept anybody.
Who's over 25 years of agebecause we want to get a career
out of you.
Um, and so in those days, 25 wasthe cutoff for all of the highly
skilled trades, but also for the, uh, for the basic trades, like
(18:14):
, um, carpenters and millwrightsand, um, floor layers, the soft
floors, as well as, um, woodenfloor layers, um, that has since
changed because the law haschanged and the organizations
have changed.
And the relationship between theemployer, contractors and the
unions have changed.
The result has been that peoplewho are a bit older than I was
(18:35):
at that time regularly apply forand regularly are admitted into
apprenticeship and trainingprograms that all of the trades,
and they get a career and it maynot be a 40 year career like I
was looking at at that time.
Um, but I ended up going to lawschool because, um, George
Segall at the time out of theIBW denied me admission into the
IB EEW.
(18:55):
Otherwise right now I'd be anelectrician and try to figure
out how to collect my pensionbecause I'd be old enough,
unlike a lawyer who never quit.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Okay.
Interesting.
I never knew that about the age.
So what year are we talkingabout, like what timeframe
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That would have been roughly 1980, 81, somewhere in
that range.
Okay.
So I, uh, I went to law schoolfrom 1980 to 1982, but from,
from the, the fall of 80 throughthe spring of 82, um, and that
was after I'd been out ofcollege for 10 years.
I spent that 10 years working atthe Pennsylvania AFL CIO in
(19:32):
various capacities.
Um, uh, during that time, aftermy own union, the service
employees in Pittsburgh hadloaned me to the AFL CIO.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yeah.
Also amongst, uh, all thevarious trust funds and
different funds that you sit on.
Do you, do you feel, or, um, doyou think some of them do it
better as far as communicatingthe benefits to the, to the
general public?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I think that some learn from, yeah, I think that
some do, and if there's nopattern to it, we might have,
um, a bricklayers fund inPittsburgh be very communicative
or attractive.
I know that there's a pipetrades fund in Pittsburgh that
is really on the cutting edge oftraining.
(20:18):
They just built a newexceptional training facility.
That's been open for about ayear.
Um, and they are advertising onTV attracting very high quality
apprentices.
But I also know in, um, centraland North central Pennsylvania,
the laborers, um, and the, uh,and, and the contractors
(20:40):
association, the KCA areattracting a significant number
of apprentices to becomeconstruction, craft laborers,
and go through that training.
And, and that's, um, arelatively young apprenticeable
trade.
It's only been about 24, 25years that we had such a thing
as an apprenticeship andtraining program for
construction craft laborers.
(21:02):
I was party to the applicationand approval by the state of the
Pennsylvania stateapprenticeship and training
council for the very firstlaborers' training program.
And that is one that issponsored jointly by KCA and the
laborers' district council ofEastern Pennsylvania.
And they're attracting people.
(21:23):
Part of it is industry-based.
So, um, down in central Southcentral Pennsylvania in
Chambersburg, right now, thereis a very significant solar
power plant being built.
And there is a need forelectrical workers, both
journeymen and apprentices.
(21:43):
And there has been somesignificant outreach there at a
recognition that when somebodygets a chance to work on this
job, it's on the cutting edge ofrenewable power sources.
And the training they get inworking on that job will be
training that will serve people,particularly younger people for
an entire career in somethingthat government agencies and,
(22:07):
um, environmental organizations,as well as typical large
construction project owners,like Penn state university, um,
like major hospitals, um, andlike government agencies will be
seeking out.
And those skills will servethose young people for a career.
(22:27):
And they will get theopportunity to learn those skill
sets while being paid a verygood wage and earning those
benefits we talked about andhelping to sustain the training
program for a coming generationthat's yet to be identified all
good stuff.
(22:47):
So there's, there's just a lotgoing on out there.
And I see it every day we havein Pennsylvania that the reality
of a growing gas industry andthe pipelines that go along with
that.
And while some people haveexpressed some understandable
concerns about the pipelineconstruction for another
(23:08):
generation of us, these arefamily sustaining jobs.
Once again, with familysustaining wages, but much more
significantly their jobs onwhich people learn skillsets
that serve them for a career,not just for a job
Speaker 4 (23:24):
[inaudible].
Speaker 1 (23:24):
So what'd you say, Chris, are you sold or is there
a certain trade you're lookingto add?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I mean, the age, the age was lifted so
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Well, unfortunately I'm 48, so, uh, I'm probably not
going to be a good, uh, a goodfit based on that, but, um,
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Your in and I will sponsor you myself.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Well, thank you, Ron, when I'm in man, you know, it
funny story as well.
And that point, um, I startedmy, my company, um, 11 years
ago.
And at the time we had beenworking with a lot with the iron
workers and we still do.
And, um, my wife, you know,start the company in 2008, which
(24:01):
great time to start the company.
My wife says to me, well, what'syour plan B?
And I said, well, worst casescenario I'll become an iron
worker.
I don't think she stoppedlaughing since she keeps reminds
me of that.
Every day I have this,
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Excuse me, I'm sorry for dropping.
I have this wonderful sort of,um, idiosyncratic story.
A very dear friend of mine wasthe, for many years, the state
director of the railroad unionshere in Pennsylvania.
Um, and he was more than aclient.
(24:39):
Uh, and his son was bornliterally two days before my
daughter was born and his sonwent to school in Harrisburg and
graduated high school withhonors, went to Duquesne
university, got himself abachelor's degree in marketing.
He went back to Duquesne and gota master's degree in education
(25:02):
and had planned on being ateacher.
And he ended up getting a job asan instructor in the academic
side of a welding program thatthe pipe trade unions out in the
Pittsburgh area had sponsoredalong with a company called
Maglev incorporated.
And in the process, this youngman became exposed to a number
(25:28):
of folks who were in the boilermakers union and had been
trained on precision weldingtechniques.
And he became so enamored ofthem that he applied for and was
admitted to the boilermakersapprenticeship and training
program out in the Pittsburgharea.
This is a young man with abachelor's and a master's
degree.
He went through thatapprenticeship training program
(25:51):
became the number one boilermaker, welding apprentice in the
country in his fourth year of afive year program.
And has since had a career wherehe has literally traveled all
over the world on welding jobs.
He's been of course, up inAlaska on that pipeline work,
both working in training people.
He's been all over the middleEast on pipeline work.
(26:13):
He's been throughout Asia.
He's been throughout most ofEurope and he's been in South
America and even in Australia.
Um, and he is earning whateverhe really feels like earning as
much as he feels like earning.
He has already been vested in apension program at the ripe
young age of 39.
(26:34):
And, um, he has an extraordinaryhealthcare program and can
basically name his own tickets.
He is among the highest workersthat I've ever met, and he earns
well into the six figures anyyear that he chooses to good for
him.
We should have him on the show.
Yeah, we can arrange that.
(26:56):
We can arrange that.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
W we've done a lot of work with the boilermakers and I
can, I can attest to that fromtheir international work and
their travelers fund and the waythat they support that, uh, the
opportunities that aren't justhere in the United States, but
all over the world.
I know there was a, there's alot of, uh, there's a big local
growing in Puerto Rico, actuallywith all the issues that have
(27:20):
been facing there, uh, on, inPuerto Rico.
So you're absolutely right.
And it's not just theboilermakers.
It's, it's every tray,
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's every one of the trades.
I mean, one of the fascinatingand unique things I've alluded
to this earlier in thisconversation that people secure
a skill set through our trainingprograms that no one can take
away from them.
And part of the reality is in,um, in two instances, one is
when you're living in theNortheastern United States or in
the, uh, in the Northern part ofthe central United States, and
(27:53):
the weather gets cold, you havethose skills.
And if you want to work inFlorida or work in Arizona, you
have to pick up the phone or yousend out an email to the sister,
local union in your trade inthose areas and see if they need
people.
And more often than not, you geta referral and you can work as a
(28:13):
traveler in those areas andavoid the cold weather if that's
your interest, or if you want tosee some spot on the planet that
is just intriguing as all getout to you.
And, and that's the way that is.
You make the appropriatecontact, you make the
appropriate phone call.
And these folks, folks refer toone another as brother for a
(28:34):
reason, and they treat oneanother like brothers, um, and
they make space and they make,um, um, um, time for this to
happen.
And typically all of thesehealthcare and pension and
annuity and training funds havewhat they refer to in the
industry as reciprocityagreements.
So you earn the access to yourbenefits in one location, but it
(29:00):
is the funds are sent to yourhome area so that you don't have
any lapse in benefit eligibilityor investing for a pension.
And the benefits themselves arecompletely portable in this
respect.
So that's another aspect whenone works for an individual
company with an individualemployer sponsoring your
healthcare plan.
(29:20):
If you lose your job, you loseyour benefits in these trades.
If you get laid off because of ashort term, lack of work, your
benefits continue.
Typically when you're workingactively, you are in benefit
credits, show that during aperiod of unemployment, whether
it's unemployment because ofsome structural issue or
unemployment, because you justfeel like working for a period
(29:42):
of time, you want to knock offfor a week or two for hunting
season, for example, yourbenefits, don't lapse, your
benefits don't get canceled.
They, they travel with you andthey're completely portable, um,
both for traveling and work inboth and in terms of, uh,
periods of layoff or downturn.
So it's another feature thatpeople just don't realize.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah.
Another great benefit.
So I know, uh, KCA will continueto the beat, the drum and really
promote these hidden benefitsand make sure it's well
communicated to the, to themasses.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well, you know, one of the, one of the realities is
that, um, the unions that KCHmembers have relationships with
and KCS members have a trulysymbiotic relationship that
they'll get into a wrestlingmatch here and there over what
these rates should be.
But the rates ultimately arecollectively bargained and
(30:35):
nobody is getting forced to paymore than the, uh, than the
economy locally can, can bear.
And the unions and the employerswork together jointly to assure
that admission to crafts isbased upon what they anticipate
will be the actual industryneeds.
(30:55):
So there aren't too many extraapprentices and too many extra
journeymen that are competingfor work.
The work is there, um, based onthe estimates and, um, they work
in tandem.
Uh, just earlier today, I wasworking on a piece of
legislation known as house bill1100, that would provide some
specialized tax benefits forbuilding another, um,
(31:20):
petrochemical plant up in theNorth Eastern part of
Pennsylvania.
And I was working with a groupof contractors as well as a
group of union folks, standingshoulder to shoulder and working
arm and arm to, um, get thegeneral assembly of Pennsylvania
to attend, to and pass thelegislation that will enable
this to happen.
(31:40):
And it's a ton of jobs inPennsylvania, but it's also a
ton of tax income.
And it's also a ton of real andmeaningful profits for
contractors who successfully bidand get that work.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Well, thank you for your efforts there.
I'm hearing leadership is slowlycoming around.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Nope.
Nobody ever explained it so wellbefore.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yes.
On behalf of the industry.
Thank you.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
It really is a pleasure to, uh,to work jointly that's uh, yeah,
so many times in my world, it'san antagonistic relationship,
but in this piece of my world,it really never is antagonistic.
It's really a joint effort.
And that's why I emphasize thesejointly true trusteed, uh,
training programs and jointlytrusteed healthcare programs and
(32:28):
jointly trusteed apprenticeshipand training programs, because
that's the deal.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Absolutely.
It's teamwork.
It's all about teamwork and, uh,yeah.
Behalf of management in KCA.
I'd like to just thank you forall your hard work over the
years, and we'd like to keeppicking your brain and bring you
back on the show from time totime.
Well, I'm happy to come back.
Um, I have an intimateunderstanding of what's in that
brain and there isn't much, butit's all yours.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Okay.
Oh, when thank you so much foryour time today and thank you
for everyone listening, beprepared.
Cause we have a lot more comingfrom the building PA podcast, uh
, more episodes to call aboutinteresting and useful
information such as this.
So thank you, whirlwind.
Thank you, John.
And we'll be you're welcome.
(33:20):
Thank you very much.
Have a great day, everybody.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Alright.
We'll see ya.
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