October 22, 2024 • 63 mins
Sheley Brien joins the episode to discuss her journey into the construction industry, emphasizing the balance between work-life and working with a spouse. She shares insights from her corporate background, highlighting how these lessons apply to construction, particularly in team building versus revenue growth. The conversation delves into the importance of business development metrics and the challenges of KPIs, including the impact of social media. Sheley talks about coaching subcontractors, building client trust, and navigating the bidding process. She addresses the pitfalls of low bids and compares construction to other industries. Sheley also offers advice to her younger self, underscores the importance of self-care, and reflects on career changes.
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(00:00):
You should have had that in the original bidthat covers the entire month of care for that
(00:04):
animal.
Like, don't no.
That's on you now.
Not you're not dropping that on me.
And so because we felt it, we don't wanna dothat to anybody else.
And a lot of like, we're people too.
Like, we we're people too.
It is it is what has been one of the most mindboggling things about coming to this industry
(00:24):
and taking a forward, like, a forward facingposition is when I go into rooms and people are
like, oh, what do you do?
Right?
After they've already assumed I do businessdevelopment because I'm, like, a woman in
construction is I'm I'm like, oh, I'm a generalcontractor.
And they're like, oh.
Like, it's an immediate, like, oh.
(00:45):
Like, we already hate you.
Like, I'm judged.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
(01:05):
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
(01:26):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
(01:50):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is Shelly Bryan, co owner ofBryan Contracting, a commercial construction
firm based here in Scottsdale, Arizona.
With her over 2 decades of diverseentrepreneurial experience in finance,
medicine, restaurants, and media, Shelly bringsa unique perspective to the construction
(02:12):
industry.
Ryan Contracting specializes in delivering highquality general contracting and construction
management services for commercial projects,focusing on exceeding client expectations
through open communication and strongrelationships.
Construction company and host of the More
Action podcast, she shares candid insights and
actionable strategies, helping othersaccelerate their growth.
Balancing her roles as business leader,competitive equestrian, wife and mother,
(02:42):
Shelley draws on her diverse background toinspire thoughtful, intentional action as the
key to success.
Her journey is proof that every step, no matterhow varied, leads to future success when
grounded in action and perseverance.
With all that said, Shelley, welcome to theshow.
Holy cow.
Well, thank you.
(03:02):
I'm super excited to, be here with you guys andquite the intro.
I should have, you know, I'll send you guysthe, the short short bio for round 2 when we do
round 2.
We'll do the condensed version.
I like to really get all the nitty gritty goodstuff right out the gate, which I know I'll
never be able to hit all of it.
But before I ask you to to give us the quicksummary or the summary you'd say, I do want to
(03:27):
applaud you.
I was on the More Action podcast a month agoish, somewhere in that ballpark.
And it was the best, guest experience that Ihad ever had on any podcast.
So thank you so much for being extraordinarilygreat at that as well as, just a good all
around thought provoking podcast.
Well, okay.
(03:47):
Let's just close the show up right now.
We're good to go.
You guys just throw that out.
No.
Justin, you are a great guest.
It was it's just a fun, fun conversation, whichI know that we're gonna have here today.
So I'm I'm really excited to be able to pay itforward, come together, here virtually with the
3 of us, and and let's see, what kind of magicwe can make.
(04:09):
Totally.
So, like I said, I said all this great stuffabout you, but please give us the the real
story, the the real origin story as we say,background, and then how you went from all
these other types of business into constructionspace.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I feel like the the origin story.
Like, we need the wavy screen to, like, takeyou back in time.
(04:30):
So a couple decades ago.
Right?
There There you go, Justin.
Couple decades ago, I mean, it all started inthe financial industry.
So I was in the financial industry, was there,built a huge book of book business, decided I
don't wanna do this anymore, moved on to thepharmaceutical industry.
So I was in the pharmaceutical industry for aspan of nearly 17 years, and I was only with 2
(04:55):
organizations over that time.
And they couldn't have been more diverse fromeach other, but and and culture and and all the
things.
So maybe we'll talk about that here.
And then after that, I got done.
I was done.
I don't know anyone tuning in on the show thathas ever had a corporate career and just had
enough.
I was I had enough.
(05:16):
I topped off.
And I thought, shoot.
Why not open a restaurant?
That'd be super fun.
Like, let's go do that.
That was a that was a really fun I feel like Iblacked out, like, during that time frame.
I I like to believe I blacked out during thattime frame.
So after the restaurant ownership, I had takena a previous Internet company, tech company
(05:41):
that I created when I was born in corporate.
Transition that when everything was going onand everything was shut down into a media
company.
So I did restaurant, then I transitioned overto media, specifically in the equine industry
because as you mentioned, I do show horsesnationally and had a lot of learning ex we'll
(06:02):
call them learning experiences with apartnership, to then realize that, my husband
and I, Chris, have both been, you know, verydriven in in our lives and the things that
we've done.
And just looking at the construction companythat, I mean, we were in commercial crushing to
(06:25):
then when he started general contracting.
I was behind the scenes, but never took aforward facing role, and we were like, okay.
We have so much going on, and we can't spreadourselves any more thin, plus we're parents and
married and all the things.
Let's go all in on the construction company.
And so I had no experience in constructionother than, like, behind the scenes managing
(06:47):
financials and stuff like that, but I was neverforward facing on the field, meeting with other
people.
And ever since we made that decision, we shutdown all other businesses, all other things,
went a 100% all in.
It's literally been the best decision thatwe've ever made, just financially, mentally,
growth oriented, everything.
(07:09):
So that's kind of my background of getting intoconstruction.
It had nothing to do with my education orprevious work experience or anything.
It just was the the next path in, that I neededto take that I'm so glad I did.
Okay.
First question right off the bat, because wegotta talk about this.
(07:30):
Mhmm.
You're a husband wife combo, which is already apretty rare thing.
Mhmm.
And I know I've been my wife and I are alsopartners in our business.
Mhmm.
Boundaries.
Are boundaries a thing in your company?
How talk talk to me a little bit about that.
I love, Will, that you, like, call this out toto begin with, because it is a hot topic.
(07:55):
In other interviews that I've been on recently,everyone's like, oh my gosh.
You worked with your husband?
I'd kill mine.
You know what I mean?
Like, they're like, no way could I ever dothat.
And that it's so like, we're 1st, we're veryblessed.
I'm gonna give you the good and the bad, all ofit.
We're very blessed because each other'sstrengths is the opposite's weakness.
So we balance each other really, really well.
(08:17):
The other thing is is that when Chris and Icame, we met almost 25 years ago, and we were
together almost 5 years before we got married.
We're about ready to celebrate 20 years beingmarried.
Okay.
And so, yes, very rare feat.
Not how either one of us are raised, 2 divorcefamily.
(08:38):
Like, we're the opposite of everything that wesaw.
Well, we try to be.
Let's let's put it that way.
We we know what not to do.
Sometimes we do it anyways.
But one cool thing about working with yourspouse when you started like us.
So I I do think that, we had a little bit of anunfair advantage in the sense that we had
(08:58):
nothing when we got together.
So everything we've done together You know whatI mean?
And when you have that, like, when youexperience failures, setbacks, things that are
challenging, like, you've been there before.
The person supports you too.
Like, having your spouse support you makesgetting through those really bad failures a lot
(09:22):
easier.
It it's not easy.
It's just easier, you know, when when you areboth in that supportive, like, more risk
advantageous, we like risk.
We we we see it as an opportunity to grow.
So that has been something that I feel hasgiven us an advantage to be able to work
together now.
Now when it comes to boundaries, Will, I amanti boundary.
(09:47):
I know that social media gurus are like, createboundaries and only work on this time and don't
work at that time and don't talk about businessif you're on a date.
Heaven forbid.
Like like, don't do all these things.
Right?
And and and that's, like, another, like like,frame of mind that I don't love.
It's like, don't do this.
Don't do this.
(10:07):
Don't do this.
It's like, what do you do?
Well, Chris and I both love to talk business.
We both absolutely, number 1, look at our mostimportant or important partnership is our
marriage.
Number 1.
And so we invest time into that.
So I don't wanna say we aren't boundary driven.
Like, we talk business all the time, but it'snot the only thing we talk about.
(10:32):
However, in order to make our marriage stay,like, the priority is that it's an investment
in time, effort, money, thought, all of thisstuff.
And so, I shared this with you previously,Justin.
I know I think we talked about, Will, is wehave two dates every single week.
We have a Wednesday night date night, and thenwe have a Friday day date, that we do every
(10:56):
single week.
Plus we have an executive meeting.
So that meeting is 100% business.
Our dates are whatever we wanna talk about.
And, a little key thing I will drop for otherhusband and wife teams that are out there
working or spouse teams is the Friday day dateis clutch.
(11:18):
If you own a business together, first off,like, you own your time, so be done Friday
afternoon.
Before the kids get out of school, you don'thave to pay for childcare.
You don't have to worry about the kids.
Go to a day date, and then you finish up andpick them up from school.
It is the best thing ever.
And so that has is how we we've been able to doit.
Because I know that there's, you know, parentsthat don't have family nearby or it's tough to
(11:41):
find childcare.
There's always a way to make it happen.
You just have to think a little bit outside thebox.
So boundaries, no with, like, a we we have,like, some things that are important for us
that we keep a priority, but we don't haveboundaries in the sense of we don't like, I
hate don't.
We we we just aren't, like, don't do this.
(12:02):
Don't do this.
Like, if we wanna talk about business, that'sgreat.
But then we'll talk about what trip we wanna goon or something that happened fun with the
kids.
So it just, like, lets the the conversationflow and, I think just really kind of embrace
the imbalance of where we are in our businessright now.
That's a good entrepreneurial marriage hack.
The Friday day date.
(12:23):
That's that's that's that's perfect.
That makes tons of sense.
When we we, start talking, I mentioned that youwere in corporate.
You had your corporate life, way before.
What have you pulled from corporate, that youyou know, now that you're running a
construction business that you, 1, have seen,like, this is horrible.
Let's not do this.
(12:44):
But then also, like, hey.
This actually works and this makes a lot ofsense.
What a great question.
You know, because I'll sit here, and I'll bethe first one to be like, oh my gosh.
Corporate America sucks.
Don't do it.
It's horrible.
But I will also say that it was some of thebest training, education, experiences that I've
(13:06):
ever had.
And so when I look at kind of how I've beenable to pull a lot of my corporate experience
of what to do and what not to do into ourbusiness.
There's a there's a few things that that cometo mind.
Number 1 is when I first got intopharmaceuticals, this was, I mean, this was,
(13:28):
like, o 4 ish.
So 20 years ago.
Wow.
That mean oh, wow.
Okay.
Age just really hit me.
I might have to update the bio because it'sgreater than 2 decades.
So, this is in, like, o four.
In that time frame, the pharmaceutical industrywas very different than it is now.
Some will say it was worse because it wasn't asregulated.
Some will say it was better because it what itwasn't.
(13:50):
And I had a lot of, fun and autonomy there.
And one of the things that the first companydid that I was that I was with is they really
fostered intrepreneurs.
Okay?
So as an intrepreneur is that I wasn't Idefinitely have always had the entrepreneurial
spirit, but I was raised to go get a job.
(14:10):
Right?
Have a 401 k, stay there forever, retire.
Like, that was how I was raised.
And so that's what I did.
Not knowing that naturally, I had a lot ofthis, like, entrepreneurism and, like, mindset
and wanted to grow and build.
And when I was with this company that long ago,there was still a lot of opportunity to foster
those relationships.
So, like, I did things that the industry hadnever saw saw.
(14:34):
I was able to come.
I came with a plan.
I put it together.
I delivered it to executives at, like, thehighest levels.
They knew me.
I knew them.
They knew more than me, and they were I wasable to sell them to to, create certain
processes that maybe we tested in 1 or 2markets that then rolled out to the entire
country.
So it was very neat because they fostered thatentrepreneurial, mindset that I already had.
(15:00):
And I feel like I could tell you by the end,that was not there.
And a lot of it is because of the restrictionsof that specific industry.
However, when I speak with other people, eitherin the AEC industry or elsewhere, those best
team members, those best employees are the onesthat feel like they have ownership, and that's
truly what entrepreneurship is is all about.
(15:22):
So I am bringing that over as we are bringingon executive level and and all the growth that
we're having is that we want to find thosepeople so that we don't we don't have to I
don't wanna say manage them, but we wanna givethem all the tools to go do what they do and
and create stuff that we don't even know aboutyet.
So I think that is incredibly important, and Isaw both sides of it, and I experienced both
(15:45):
sides.
So I can understand and see that.
Another thing, and it comes back to thisownership.
And, you know, we talked about this previously,but if you're gonna pull it's really funny
because, you know, we're growing right now, andwe're thinking about the, team members that we
wanna bring on.
(16:06):
And I am all about paying for performance.
I think that if we want to expect exceptionalresults, we need to give our team members the
ability to do that, and that comes withownership in their ability to make tons of
money.
Right?
(16:26):
Is that it's not just about us making money.
It's, like, how can we help them make money sothat they can go get the house that they always
wanted, go on the trip, per you know, sendtheir kids to a private school?
Like, how can we help them do that?
And so by tying their metrics to things theycan actually control, I think is one of the
best things that you can do for anybody, and itwill naturally foster that entrepreneurial
(16:50):
group of people.
Right?
And so whether it's a business development orlike a project manager, how do we affect like,
how do we help them have a greater effect onthe things that they manage?
And so we're constantly asking ourselves, like,how can we do this?
We're interviewing right now for a PM and asuper.
And while we can tie it to certain things, somethings are out of their control.
(17:12):
And I have been in that position before where,you know, like, say in the pharmaceutical
industry, where, like, my quota was some randomnumber that they gave me, and there was, like,
no way.
There was, like, no amount of calls.
There was no amount of effort that I could doto get there, and that's a very defeating place
to be.
And for someone like me, that's like, okay.
(17:34):
I'm gonna win.
I'm gonna be the best.
I'm gonna go.
I can do this.
I'm gonna work harder than them, and I'm gonnabe smarter.
And, like, all these things, and it stopped mybrain thinking like that when I had no control
in my overall result.
So I feel like that is something that we haveto tie to every position that we can.
And whether it's, like, a year end goal, maybeit's, like, increasing customer service.
(17:56):
You know?
What does that look like?
How do we measure that?
There are metrics out there to be able to doall of this.
And so I think pulling that over to this isincredibly important.
And then the other thing and this was this iskind of a funny one.
Maybe a little cliche.
Maybe a little silly.
I don't know.
But in the pharmaceutical industry, when Ifirst started, they would always talk about and
(18:20):
it started to annoy me at the end because Iknew they really didn't care.
But they'd always be like, we're changingpeople's lives.
Like, we are.
And and there were certain drugs that we thatwere.
Absolutely.
I was in dermatology.
This is your skin.
Right?
And one of the drugs that I sold back in 2004,it's now over the counter.
It's so crazy.
Put my son on it.
I'm like, I know.
I know the pathogenesis of acne.
(18:42):
Let me help you, son.
But this drug, when you have someone that hassomething on their face or on their skin, it's
can be debilitating for them.
Right?
And if we're able to provide medication andcare to where now, they're no longer hiding in
their house.
They're no longer depressed.
They're actually able to go get the job thatthey want, meet somebody, make a friend.
(19:02):
Like, all of that's changing their life.
And I'm going back.
The pharmaceutical industry isn't always likethis anymore.
I will say I'm a little jaded on it now becauseI just know that the medical system is broken
and how bad it is.
However, there are certain drugs, there arecertain doctors that are incredible that they
are changing people's lives.
And that's one of our taglines actually withour construction company is we're changing
(19:26):
people's lives.
And Chris and I, we just talked about it lastnight on Thursday or Wednesday night, date
night.
We were talking about the fact that, like, cashflow, money, growth.
Because now we have so many people that aredependent on us that are on our team that,
like, we we are, like, we're changing theirlife.
Like, we are we are helping them provide fortheir families.
(19:48):
And so it is so important, like, what we aredoing is changing the lives of our team members
and our clients because, ultimately, they canopen their business.
They're changing the lives of the community forwhoever they serve.
Right?
Whatever it is.
I mean, we're we're working on a a drivethrough coffee shop right now.
Like, that's gonna make someone's day, and thatis, like, you can't overlook that.
(20:10):
You can think, like, oh, it's just a coffeeshop.
Whatever.
Like, who cares?
They're everywhere.
It's not one of the big brand name ones, soit's a little bit fun to do that too.
But it's, like, we are making their livesbetter, and and then those business owners can
provide for their families.
So it's kind of like those 3 those things thatthat we there's a whole bunch more, but, those
are kind of the three things I think about asfar as being able to transition corporate to
(20:34):
running a business right now in the AECindustry.
So okay.
You talked about something, that I definitelywanna bring up.
So growth, leads to needing more people, butthis can lead to a chicken and the egg problem.
Mhmm.
The chicken and the egg problem is, do youbuild the team first, or do you build the
(20:57):
revenue first to support the team?
Mhmm.
Right?
Because if you if you because if you, let'ssay, build the revenue, right, build the
pipeline, sell the deal, whatever it is, butyou don't have the people for it, you could
potentially fail on the project or jobs or setof jobs.
But if you don't, but if you build the team andyou don't have the supporting revenue, you're
going to have to lose them.
(21:18):
Right?
Because at some point, the company's not gonnabe able to support them.
So, yeah, it's it's a bit of a chicken and theegg problem, especially since finding the right
people, it's not like they're, out on themarket right when you need them.
So what do you do?
Do you build the team or you build the revenue?
What's your answer to that?
Such a great question, and such a relevantquestion, Will.
(21:42):
First off, your whole when you say egg,everyone listening in, did you hear that?
I'm like, wow.
He's Midwest.
Like, egg.
I can't I can't even I can't even do it.
I was like I I felt like Chris is from Chicagotoo, and, like, there's certain, like, cash
cash.
Like, I can't and I'm like, oh.
So I was like, no.
No.
There you go.
(22:02):
Okay.
Okay.
So so I had to call that out.
Sorry, guys.
Because I'm like, wow.
I'm an Arizona native.
We do not say egg like that.
So it was very unique.
And this question is so relevant because rightnow, as far as the growth that we're
experiencing, I remember at the beginning ofthe year, Chris and I, we we were going back
(22:25):
and forth.
Right?
Like, okay.
What which one is the right way?
We were looking at case studies, othercompanies.
How did they do it?
Right?
Just, like, trying to understand and make thebest decision because we do have so many
people, clients, you know, our team that dependon us.
And we wanna do it right.
And right is such a relevant term too.
(22:47):
Right?
I wanna call that out because it's not right orwrong.
It's just this is the way we're doing it.
And ultimately, this is the way.
I I hate labels.
And so what I will say is that when it cameback to us, the most important thing when it
came to our construction company because we'vehad other businesses where I think this
decision is a little bit easier to make for us.
(23:10):
It all came back to cash flow.
We were like cash flow, cash flow, cash flow.
And in the way in which we run this business,we have so much cash out at times that we need
to make sure that the machine keeps going.
And so it was all about cash flow for us.
So in in my opinion and experience in thisbusiness, right, I might argue this different
(23:34):
for a different business, but in this business,cash flow.
So we are all about business development, howwe are gonna do it.
We are approaching it a little bit differentthan most, and then bringing on, the team
after.
And so that has allowed us also when you havethe cash flow when we are looking at people to
(23:56):
bring on, like, we I will 100% pay for talent.
100%.
Without a doubt.
Because if they have the talent, theexperience, the know how, and just the overall
demeanor to be able to make great decisions inthe the kind of, like, long term approach that
that we take, I will pay for that all day long.
(24:17):
And so I just feel that, like, cash flow is theway to go.
You mentioned that you had a differentperspective, in BD.
What is what does that mean?
What what is your you do it a little bitdifferently, I think is what you said.
Well, it's funny because I used to be BD,right, for, pharmaceuticals.
(24:38):
Like, the like, I did this for many years.
When I was in the financial I had a like, whenI was a financial adviser, I made 400 dials a
day.
I, like, knew my metrics, what I need.
I was I was my own business development thentoo.
So, like, I know the work that it takes.
I know that the type of personality, becauseyou have to be doing the work that you have to
(25:00):
be willing to do the work that no one else willdo.
I think number 1.
Yeah.
Number 2, you also have to, like, make surethat you get that person that wants because I
think that there's a carrot and a stick.
I don't know if you guys have have heard this.
Right?
Like, so the carrot, you wanna chase the prize,and the stick is you never wanna go back.
Right?
So, like, that pushes you forward.
(25:21):
And maybe it's, like, a fear or a big failurethat pushes you forward.
And in my experience, when it came to BDpeople, is you gotta find the carrot.
Right?
The carrot people are the ones that we want,and then you gotta incentivize it in a way that
they can, control it and actually achieve it.
We want to pay to be able to do that.
(25:42):
So when I go to events, that are AEC events,and it's funny, a whole another topic, walking
in as a woman.
Everyone's like, oh, yeah.
You're the BD person for Brian Development.
I'm like, do you not see my last name?
Like, in no way.
Like, is that, like, I'm just a BD person.
(26:04):
And I say that with a grain of salt, and Iunderstand that might, like, ruffle some
feathers, and that's okay.
But I hope that this provides a little bit ofperspective because when I see certain BD
people at these events, I can tell, like,they're not incentivized appropriately to be
able to do the work like, to want to do thework that no one wants to do.
(26:26):
Right?
Have awkward conversations, meet people,follow-up, make the extra call that no one
wants to do.
Like, all these things, I can tell exactly whoare the great BD people and aren't.
And that is something that when we are going tobring on right now, this is something that the
the way that Chris and I are doing it, this issomething that Chris and I own right now.
(26:48):
Probably, by q one, we won't own it anymoredirectly, but is that we want our person to be
seen differently.
And so because of that, we're gonna hiresomeone probably outside the industry that is
gonna look at this with a fresh set of eyes.
Look at the AEC industry with a fresh set ofeyes.
We're gonna incentivize them in a way to drivethe behavior that we actually want, and we're
(27:13):
gonna give them a lot of lot of freakingownership to go do it.
But then we're gonna have metrics.
Right?
That how are they going to how are we going tomanage their success and help them take full
ownership in that?
And so business development for Chris and Iright now to just kinda answer a little bit for
(27:33):
for you, Justin.
Like, I'm forward thinking on how I'm going tocreate this role and the person I wanna have
into it.
But for Chris and I, we made a decision at thebeginning of this year instead of going wide,
we went really deep in our relationships.
And from an owner's perspective, that has beena lucrative approach for us.
That's awesome.
(27:54):
You mentioned metrics.
Metrics are very intriguing because, they tella tale.
They certainly do.
Hey.
This person is performing to the level at whichwe want them to or not, but where is that
balance that comes to?
Because it looking at it straight black andwhite is not always the the perfect or right
(28:14):
as, you know, a path.
So how do you view that, and how do you balancethe I I wanna look at the metrics because
they're important, obviously, but I also needto understand the individual in in a little bit
more.
Yeah.
You know, and, just relating to, like, metrics,KPIs Mhmm.
I think, number 1, I I in my opinion, I thinkthere are some that are that need to stay and
(28:39):
then some that waiver a little bit with withwhere that person is or where the business is.
It needs to be flexible.
If we stay with metrics that we used 5 yearsago, that's not gonna make any right?
Like, that doesn't make any sense.
The the overall market has changed.
Same thing with people.
Right?
If the person hasn't changed in 5 years, mightbe time for a change, either in leadership or
(29:01):
the person.
Right?
Like, I'm not gonna point the finger eitherway, but it would be either way.
And so, I think when it comes to metrics andpeople, there's more to the story.
Right?
And for for us, it's funny.
I was thinking we we do these really cool,like, media days with our clients at project
completion and and stuff like that, and we weinterview Chris too.
(29:24):
He's not always fun to get on camera.
Like, he doesn't like it.
So I when we have media day, I make him do it.
And one of the questions I asked him was, whatis he looking forward to in the next 5 to 10
years with Brian contracting?
And his number one answer was people.
It's like, we want to be able to developpeople.
And if the people stay with us, you know, 20years or longer or what have you, great.
(29:48):
But if they only wanna stay with us for 2years, we are gonna develop them the same way.
We're gonna invest into them the same way.
Because if they go on and they go elsewhere andthey're like whoever hires them, they're gonna
be like, wow.
We're always gonna hire Brian contractingpeople because they were trained appropriately.
They were treated appropriately.
They brought stuff over here.
(30:08):
And so for us, it's like the metrics is likethe full picture of the person and the efforts
that they're doing.
Because, listen, there are days, and I've beenin this, there's been years that no matter what
you do, you're beating your head against thewall.
And, like, you just can't make, you you justcan't make the change.
You you just can't elicit the response thatyou're trying to get.
(30:32):
And it might be a 100% out of your control.
Right?
But if they are doing all the things that arewithin their control and proof of that, I can't
fault them for the result just yet.
Right?
It's kind of like that meme or the characterwhere, like, they're picking, trying to find
gold, and, like, they they stop just before theend.
(30:54):
And I feel like when we only look at metrics,we stop just before the end before this person
turns into gold.
And so I think it's really important to usemetrics because they help drive behaviors, but
they aren't the full story.
So that's how I look at metrics both in thebusiness.
(31:14):
I I think the business and the financial side,the project side, like, we can look at stuff,
but then we we can, like, start askingourselves.
You'll hear and I think that's what everybody'shopefully picking up right now is, like, we ask
our ourselves a lot of questions.
Like, is this what we wanted?
Is this the behavior that we wanted?
Did we manage this right?
What would we have done differently next time?
Like, we are we are always asking ourselvesquestions to elicit thought and curiosity to
(31:35):
see what can come from, you know, eachexperience is a learning opportunity, good or
bad.
Okay.
So, obviously, you had said that there's somewavering in sort of what you're measuring.
You still there still needs to be somemeasuring.
There's a we'll call it a gut check.
(31:56):
So when do KPIs specifically not work for you?
Do you have any examples of, like that you'veseen where KPIs don't work?
I will say a specific example right now.
I don't have one currently with ourconstruction company.
I don't.
Well, I have a I have a fun one I could tell.
(32:18):
Okay.
I've got one.
There you
go.
I'm like, just give me a second.
Let me rack the brain a little bit.
So this is this is a really kind of fun one andand hopefully relatable.
So social media.
K?
Let's talk social media for a second.
It's, so important, right, and so challengingall at the same time.
(32:40):
It sounds like marriage.
Sounds like working with your spouse.
Right?
Sounds like it.
Just like working with your spouse.
Just like working with your spouse.
Like, you hate it, but you love it at the sametime.
So what we're doing and and where I'm leadingmy my team right now with kind of our social
media, our marketing, our PR, in theconstruction industry is a little bit different
(33:02):
than what has always been done.
And so funny because you want to look at themetrics.
Right?
Like reach, engagement, views, like all thesedifferent you want to look at these hard
metrics, And the metrics will tell you, right,growth, followers, connections, subscribers.
(33:24):
Like, these tell you, okay.
Like, we're on the right direction.
They can tell you, you know, like, what hitshome with people, what doesn't.
But then you can, like, look at, are weeliciting the response we want, like a call or
an introduction?
Like, you gotta set all these metrics.
Right?
But there is a unspoken metric that I feel likesocial media, specifically in this industry,
(33:48):
which is so funny.
And it this is where corporate this is, like,all my corporate stuff starts, like, driving me
crazy because I fought LinkedIn for a whilebecause I felt like corporate America to me.
Everybody was just patting each other on theback.
Oh, good job.
Thanks so much for sharing that.
Oh, good.
Yay.
And I'm like, no.
That sucked, actually.
Why are you why are you talking about that?
(34:09):
Like, I'm just like my mind is like, this is Iam not I don't have to do that anymore.
I'm not in corporate, right, where I have topat all the like, all the executives just pat
each other's backs telling them how amazingthey are instead of being like, no.
That actually sucked, and I think we could dobetter.
Like, here's right?
So social media, you think, like, theinfluencers, the big names, the big reach, the
(34:33):
this, like, you think those are, like, themetrics.
Like, oh, they're killing it.
Like, that's awesome.
Like, oh, this one went viral.
You hear all these, like, terms and stuff.
And then it's like you have us, who we aredoing something just a little bit different.
Right?
You know, it's more tied to one of our corevalues as an organization and what we're doing
with social media.
(34:54):
And I'm looking at Chris and I and thecompany's brand as 3 separate brands, and I
look at it 10 years out, what I want them tolook like, what we're gonna be doing 10 years
from now, kind of all of those things.
But the coolest thing that you can't run ametric to and I think engagement is is one of
those ones that you have to be cautious withbecause we'll walk into Chris does have a
(35:18):
brand.
It's me and my team, just so we know.
Okay?
He does not do social media, but he walks intoan event.
And someone that he Chris has been incommercial real estate since 05, so 20 years
almost.
Someone he hasn't seen in a decade walks rightup to him and he's like, oh my gosh.
Chris, like, you're killing it on LinkedIn.
(35:40):
I got all your stuff, and it's just, like, a meand I'm sitting there, and Chris has no idea
what he's talking about because, of course,he's not the one doing it.
And I'm I'm sitting there smiling and grinningbecause I watch all the metrics on social media
to see what topics hit and what we need tofocus on.
And I'm watching all of this, and I'm justsmiling because this gentleman who I've known
(36:02):
for for 20 years too.
Right?
Because Chris and I have been together.
He's never liked, commented, or done anythingon any of Chris's social media on LinkedIn.
Yep.
Not once.
And I'm like, Like, talking about personalbrand, it's not just about engagement.
I think we call them lurkers.
(36:23):
Yeah.
I think
it it's baffling how much how many timesthat'll be somewhere if somebody I know, like,
not like a stranger, but somebody I know that'slike, oh my god.
I love your post.
I do a gratitude post, but I love yourgratitude post.
And I'm like, I had no idea you even saw it.
Like, it was just like, how could I possiblydo?
It's like, I look forward to you every week.
(36:45):
And I'm like, what?
You no love?
You're not gonna show me a love, man?
What's what's what's going on here?
This is the you know?
And it's I I don't know otherwise.
But, no, you're totally spot on there.
Like, that's absolutely right where there is,there's not a metric for that.
How do you how do you how do you, you know, putthat into a formula?
I don't know.
Every time I interact that way, I I mark itdown somewhere, that's that's not feasible.
(37:09):
Nope.
Nope.
And that's where I think there are some things.
I mean, that is proof.
That story is proof.
What you just shared, like, that's proof thatyou can't make decisions solely on metrics.
You can't.
They can help influence decisions or orchanges, but you can't so like, because if that
was the case, like, we shut down social media.
Like, we don't it is not a direct businessdriver for us, but it is a very indirect brand
(37:42):
booster for us.
Let's call it that.
Yeah.
Right?
So it creates authority for us.
It's not like a vanity thing for us.
Oh, boy.
That's that's that's a great point.
Yeah.
That was a great answer to, to the questionaround KPIs.
I loved it's a good good version of where KPIsdon't work yet.
(38:03):
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
There's obviously there's obviously somesomething behind them.
So Yep.
Okay.
All right.
What about so we talked a little bit, KPIs,decision making.
There's things that are hard metrics.
Financials, right?
That's a bit harder.
(38:24):
And then there's softer metrics, because,especially in the business development world,
right, it's hard to make someone make adecision faster.
Most of the time, it's not slower.
You don't want to make a decision slower, butmake a decision faster.
You don't know what's going on in their theirlives or what's happening in the context of
(38:44):
whatever's happening in their world.
Right?
Mhmm.
So, would you say, from a metrics perspective,when it comes to people, does what's happening
in their lives, in their personal lives matter?
And does it give influence to hardware metrics?
(39:08):
And if so, how?
What a great question.
This is a this is a really, really goodquestion.
And it's interesting because I can I can thinkback to different periods of of all the careers
that I've had, where I actually appreciatedthat what was going on in your life didn't
(39:32):
matter?
Right?
It it didn't matter.
Either you made it or you didn't.
So, like, feast or famine, figure it out.
And I can say that in a certain person that,like, pushed the response.
So what immediately I thought about was when Iwas a financial adviser, you started I was,
(39:52):
like, one of 15 brokers.
The new recruits think boiler room.
I want you to think boiler room.
Right?
I was one
of the the new 15.
There were only 2 girls, the rest all men.
And you start out at a salary while you'regetting your 7 and your 66 so that you can
trade.
And then all of a sudden, like, your salarystarts decreasing because you should be selling
(40:15):
to replace your salary.
Right?
And if you don't make that transition, you loseyour job.
Like, very easy.
Right?
Very black and white.
So part of me actually likes that becausethere's no guesswork either.
I knew what my performance metric was.
I delivered, and that was it.
(40:36):
I was only one of 2 brokers that actually madethat graduating class.
Everybody else was no longer employed there.
Right?
And so it sparked something in me in what Icould do.
I didn't realize, like, what I could do.
Right?
So I think that sometimes having really hardmetrics like that, you can surprise yourself in
(40:58):
what you're capable of, right, if you just putyour head down and freaking work.
That being said, I mean, my health took a majortoll during that period, right, that I, you
know, had to navigate through.
So it's like I see both both sides of it.
What I can tell you is, like, right now, inwhat we're looking at with with our country or
(41:22):
our company right now, And what makes me thinkof it is not even and this is like a whole
another dynamic, Will, is we work withsubcontractors.
Right?
We we hold a contract with them.
They're not an employee.
Very, very different relationship.
Right?
And we are in the business, right, ofcommercial constructions changing lives.
(41:44):
It also means for the people that don'tdirectly work for us.
We talked about clients.
It also means subcontractors.
But we are also very focused on developingsubcontractors because that gives us a better
pool to play this game with.
So some of the things that we will do is if wegive a new sub contractor to, like, our group
(42:07):
an opportunity to not only bid, but then winthe job.
We award them the job, and let's say somethinghappens, they they realize we are not change
order.
We we change orders are not a profit line itemfor us as most construction companies, and then
they try to hit us with certain stuff, or theytry to do certain stuff, or they leave a messy
(42:28):
job site, or, you know, they do all thesethings.
We'll coach them through the first time.
A 100%.
These guys don't work for us, but there is alevel, there is a standard that we hold on our
job sites and a level of communication,follow-up, paperwork that they have to uphold
for us a standard.
And we'll coach them through the first time anda 100% give them a a second chance.
(42:51):
Once we give them the second chance, that's ourbreaking point.
It's either they rise to the occasion or theyfall off.
And if they fall off, it's done.
Like, there's no there's no third chance.
We're done.
Because we are changing the lives for everybodythat's involved.
So that's our other subcontractors.
And if this one, because it's such a dominoeffect, there's such a ripple effect, is, like,
(43:17):
everybody's success is dependent upon the lastperson in line.
And so we can't afford that to happen to ourother subcontractors.
So I think it is important that there's wenever know what is going on in people's lives.
We never know.
I think giving everybody a second chance is,like, a humane and and and a a very, like,
(43:44):
leader forward thing to do, and give them thecoaching and the tools to be able to rise up.
If they choose not to at that point, you'vedone everything in your control.
It was on them.
They aren't able to deliver, and now we moveon, and that's okay.
And I think when you have that strong filter,you can give those people the the second
(44:05):
chance, but then you gotta move on becausethere's a bigger picture at stake.
And if they can't see it, that's okay.
We can't control it.
We're just gonna move on.
You mentioned not utilizing change orders is ais a big place where you you gain, dollars.
How did how one, that's different, which couldbe super cool.
(44:27):
One, how do you make that actually work?
Because that seems like things change on jobsthat all the time.
Like, that's like, how do you Mhmm.
How do you prevent, you know, change ordersfrom happening?
Or how do you how do you get that to workfiscally?
No.
It's interesting you picked up on that andmaybe some of your, listeners did too.
But for us, we're business owners too.
(44:50):
Right?
And so we hire vendors, horses, like, I I havea professional trainer.
If I start getting nickeled and dimed forstuff, which I have.
I've been competing on horses for over 35years.
If I get nickeled and dimed for something, Ilose it.
Because I'm like, no.
You should have had that in the original bidthat covers the entire month of care for that
(45:12):
animal.
Like, don't no.
That's on you now.
Not you're not dropping that on me.
And so because we felt it, we don't wanna dothat to anybody else.
And a lot of like, we're people too.
Like, we we're people too.
It is it is what has been one of the most mindboggling things about coming to this industry
(45:33):
and taking a forward, like, a forward facingposition is when I go into rooms and people are
like, oh, what do you do?
Right?
After they've already assumed I do businessdevelopment because I'm like a woman in
construction, is I'm I'm like, oh, I'm ageneral contractor.
And they're like, oh.
Like, it's an immediate, like, oh.
(45:53):
Like, we already hate you.
Like, they I'm judged.
We don't like you.
You're a general contractor.
You don't you take extra time.
You make it cost more money.
Like, seriously, I like I like laugh.
I like do it on purpose now, so I'm gonna seewhat reaction I get, because it's funny to me.
What I see that as and what we see that as,like, the bar is really low.
(46:16):
The bar is really low.
What a great opportunity.
Right?
So change orders are probably one of thebiggest things that we hear from when it comes
to, like, architecture and design, the client,is that they're like, oh, god.
Change orders.
Like, oh, what what are they gonna go throughme now?
And this is something where Chris and I havebeen very strategic in our growth because this
(46:37):
is one thing that can kill a relationship
Oh, yeah.
Is, you know, you give a bid because you hiredon an estimator that was, like, new and didn't
have the training and whatever, and you givethem a bid, and it's low, so you win the
contract.
That's a whole another topic we could talkabout.
But, like, you win the contract as low bid,regardless of quality, low bid wins, and then
(47:01):
they start to get to work.
And they're like, oh, we forgot the ceilinggrid.
Sorry.
Here's a $25,000 change order.
Right?
Sorry.
It's like, wait.
No.
That's not how it works.
And so we actually spend a significant amountof time.
Like, we invest more time than most, I willsay, in our bidding process.
So when we give a bid, that is the bid.
(47:24):
Period.
And if there is a change order, it's at theclient's request.
So our goal is to never have a change orderunless it's at the client's request.
Unforeseen unforeseen situations, circumstanceshappen, but, honestly, Chris and the team and
and how we have been able to build this, wemitigate that risk because the back end
(47:50):
relationship building of actually building thejob for what we bid is so potent.
And a lot of our clients, I told you, we'vegone deep.
Right?
Like, deep in our client relationships ratherthan wide.
That is one thing that we are actually hearingback from 2 of our top very large clients is
(48:10):
that compared to other GCs, we're actuallysaving them about 15%.
Oh, yeah.
So Oh, yeah.
I I this blows my mind for many reasons.
Oh, my my brain is is crazy now.
So spot migration, same thing.
We're flat rate.
Right?
We don't nickel and dime our clients.
Like, we don't go and say, hey.
Oh, you're gonna serve a migration.
We don't we that's a project.
So we do that.
No.
(48:30):
It's like, no.
For us, it's like, no.
We're we we are your partner, which you hadmentioned about, like, relationships.
We don't wanna go wide.
We wanna go deep.
Right?
So it's like, that's it.
How do you go deep?
You actually become a partner with somebody.
You actually do things that if you were in arelationship, a meaningful relationship with,
you would do.
You would operate that way.
(48:50):
So that one, I love the the synergy, which isthe worst business word, but of our businesses.
They're very similar in that regard, which I solove so so much.
Also, I I dream big.
So when I think of what you're doing, that'swhat I see the construction industry be coming.
Like, why wouldn't why are you doing this?
(49:11):
Oh, well, I know I'm gonna, you know, haveanother $100 in change orders, so I'll just low
bid it.
Then I'm gonna have a horrible relationshipwith whomever, you know, the owner is or
developer is.
And like, burn every bridge I could possiblydo.
I'm gonna then, like, completely destroy my mysubs or trade partners because I'm just gonna
try to find the money from all kinds of places.
(49:32):
And it creates this, like, massive headache.
Right?
Like and and for me, I just I look at this andI'm like, that's that's the future.
You're you are building the future.
You're changing lives, certainly, but you arebuilding what I foresee is, like, that's how it
should work.
Because that's how we work, which is not howthe IT in cyberspace works.
But, like, that's how it should work becausethat's what true partnerships are.
(49:55):
Oh, this is this is, like, outcome orientedversus feature oriented.
Yep.
The like, that's what we're talking about.
Right?
What you're doing is you're providing anoutcome versus a whole bunch of features.
Features and benefits.
Yeah.
Go back to sales.
Yep.
Yeah.
No.
And and and it's funny.
So you said a couple things that I wanna callout.
Number 1, you used the word should.
So should do something.
(50:17):
We all should be doing a lot of things
Sure.
But we're not.
No.
Right?
So, like, I'm like, yeah.
We should be doing this way.
And you know what?
Clients should be looking past low bid.
Mhmm.
They should be.
They should actually create a system where theyare comparing bids apples to apples, rather
(50:37):
than apples to bananas to pineapples, right,and being like, who's got what?
They should do all that, but they don't.
Mhmm.
And so I can't control what any of them shouldbe doing.
What I can't control is what we do and how weperform.
And so for us, do we put a little bit dialoguebehind when we bid?
Do we build a stronger relationship so that wecan have discussions about this stuff or call
(51:03):
out certain things that we know others willmiss and add as a change order.
Right?
Where we're being forward facing being like,hey.
This is the grid or this is the door.
Like, here's the here's the thing we want youto keep in mind.
We're bidding it per plan, but we want you tokeep in mind, like, this is important to ask
(51:24):
others about.
The thing is is that this is like a personal, Idon't know, a personal goal of mine is to move
past a little bit.
I'm over it.
I'm so over it.
Like, seriously, are you gonna go, like, getbrain surgery and be like, which one's the
cheapest?
I just want the cheapest guy that's gonna doit.
(51:46):
Right?
Like, just like you know, I mean, you you canuse, like, as every other stitch to stitch me
back up.
That's good.
Like, let's do that.
Right?
No.
I want the best guy.
And if that's the, like, the most experience,if that's, like, the most expensive, whatever,
I want the best.
I don't care that they're the cheapest.
And that's what that is something that drivesme insane about this is the low bid win.
(52:13):
And I like, it is mind boggling to me.
We you would not do that in any other industry,yet people are investing 100 of 1,000 and
1,000,000 of dollars on low bid.
Yeah.
There
you go.
You you win your low bid.
Like
I, I think I equate it to, oh, that's that'sthe Groupon version.
(52:33):
Right?
Oh, you wanted to get a LASIK?
Use Groupon.
That's crazy.
I wanna get brain surgery.
Oh, use the Groupon version of it becauseyou'll save some money.
And it's like, no.
You won't because you'll be going to getsomebody else to finish the job because it's
the Groupon version of it.
Not this isn't shitting on Groupon, but it'sjust what it is.
So, yes.
(52:53):
I I agree.
The should.
The should.
They should.
They should.
They should.
But the point is is as a trailblazer, as aleader, right, you do the thing that they
should be doing because you know it's the rightthing to do.
The right thing.
Right?
The right thing to do.
And that's that's what makes you different.
And that what is what helps scale.
That's what helps, you know, increase revenuein growing a team and doing all those things.
(53:15):
And when people think about you in theindustry, they know you're different.
They know you operate more transparent.
They know all of those things, which justcreates this gravity effect of, like, people
just wanna be around people that are doing theright stuff.
Uh-huh.
I mean, that's the goal.
Right?
Like, that's the goal is, like, we wanna beplaying this game infinitely.
(53:35):
And so it's like, how do we, conduct ourbusiness in a way that aligns with our core
values and, like, our goals too.
Of course, we all wanna make money.
Are you kidding me?
I don't work for free.
Like, we wanna go do that.
Like, do all that.
But when you hold your, like, values in the waythat you operate at such a high level, like,
this this is the standard.
(53:56):
I'm sorry.
We do not bend to our standard.
You find other people in the industry that arejust like it.
And some you move past.
We've had to move past because even clients,like, we're like, we don't operate in that
capacity.
Right?
And that includes, like, urgency on responsesand and all of that.
Like, that we are schedule is much tied to toyour to everybody else's, all the key
(54:19):
stakeholders' responses.
We need those quickly so that we can do ourjob.
And if they aren't responding quickly, well,then that falls on us.
Right?
So then we wanna make sure that, you know,everyone we're working with, it's kind of like
that that cream rises to the top.
It just you keep taking care of what you cancontrol again and again, and you guys we find
(54:42):
those people that are like minded, and wecontinue to do business with them.
Not to mention it helps process.
Change orders are giant pain in the ass foreverybody.
Like, they're Everybody.
It is it sucks for everybody.
Like, even the person that's making the moneyoff the change order, it sucks.
It's not good.
It's more work.
You have to employ somebody to make sure theymanage it.
Who's got to sign off on this thing?
(55:03):
Who how many levels of of sign off happens?
Do I gotta go to the owners?
Is it just the developer?
Do I gotta go to the sub?
It's, like, all these different things, andit's just like, yeah.
Remove that.
Get that out of the way.
What like, you're actually becoming moreproductive.
Like, you you will you will make jobs quicker,right, which is effectively what everybody
wants.
I want the building built faster.
Like, why why do I wanna wait on this?
Right?
So, it there's so many aspects when you justchange your your billing model effectively or
(55:28):
your your model, your business model.
It affects so many other things.
You can hire better people because you youhate.
Like, we're we're very conscious of what thisis, and I'm not trying to change order you to
death.
So, I'd love it.
I, man, I I don't know.
You you got me all riled up here, Shelley.
Yep.
I tend to do that.
Tend to do that.
Justin, we're coming up on an hour hour.
(55:52):
I think we could talk to Shelley for a longtime.
Oh, Oh, yeah.
But I think I think it's time.
I think it's time to do our last question.
For sure.
So, Shelley, if you could go back 20 years,which we have learned that you were starting
pharma at that point, what would you tellyourself to give yourself advice, to to help
your 20 year younger self?
(56:13):
I have 2 things for you.
Okay?
I have 2 things for you.
Number 1 is change careers often.
I held a lot of shame, in all honesty.
I held a lot of shame when I changed careersbecause I was like, this is this was not how I
was supposed to raise.
Like, I'm supposed to have tenure and, like,all this stuff, and I'm I'm I'm horrible.
(56:38):
Like, I can't believe I'm moving careers andchanging, and I still did it, but, like, I held
a lot of shame for it.
And I think when we reframe it as, like, it'stime to go get new experience.
Like, Like, I've tapped myself out here.
I'm so grateful for all of the experience thatthat I have received and the training and the
the the life that it's provided me, but nowit's time for me to go change.
(57:03):
And I think that's why it's, like, it's it's soglorious, right, thinking as a business owner
now, like, I'm like, man, I'd loved it becauseit's easy.
This is why we think this way.
I'd love to get someone that just stays with usfor 20 years and, like, they just do their job
and whatever.
But, honestly, because it's easy for us becausethey're already trained.
But what's best for us is to actually have newor challenge them to grow or put them in a new
(57:28):
position.
Oh, yeah.
Like, that's actually the hard thing, andthat's the better thing to do.
And so I think just if I were to go back andtell myself 20 years ago, I'd be like, don't
hold the shame.
You're just getting more experience.
All that experience, all those crazy careersthat make no sense for construction are 100%
part of the reason why we're so successfulright now.
(57:49):
If I didn't have all those crazy careers andbeing able to apply this now, business is
business.
There's little nuances between them, butbusiness is business.
And being able to apply all of that right now,I think, provides us the perspective to be able
to grow and reach, the levels that we want withthis company.
That would be my number one to my 20 yearyounger self.
(58:11):
I'd be like, start Botox earlier.
No.
I'm just kidding.
You got you got to.
But Grow your hair out longer.
No.
No long hair for men.
No long hair.
No.
Okay.
So the second thing that I would say to my 20year old self, and this is something that we
didn't even get to talk to yet, is to alwaystake care of yourself first.
(58:35):
So I know probably a lot of the people that arelistening into the show right now, building
scale, you're scaling businesses regardless ofyour industry, you're putting all of you into
the business and there's probably not much leftof you.
And I'm gonna tell you right now, I sharedearlier how I grew I was in my early twenties
(58:56):
when I was in the financial industry.
In just shy of 3 years, I grew a book ofbusiness from 0 to $17,000,000 under management
in my twenties.
Okay?
I told you I did 400 dials a day.
I was first one in, last one out.
And I just got to the like, I was, like, atthat point of, like, either I stay in it for
life or I better get out now.
(59:18):
Right?
And I was, like, I cannot do this anymore.
I I'm I was I was tapped out, and so I wentover to the pharmaceutical industry.
Soon going over to the pharmaceutical industry,so I just worked my tail off for almost 3
years.
I actually woke up one morning, and I couldn'tsee out of my left eye.
And what had happened is I worked my body sohard for so long, not taking care of myself,
(59:44):
nutrition, diet, just relaxing, all of thestuff.
Is that a virus that most of us have that are,I would say, in our forties, so maybe that's
just me.
But a virus that most of us have, chicken pox,that virus comes out as an adult, if you're
overstressed, as shingles.
(01:00:06):
K?
Lives in your nerves.
What happened is that came out on my opticnerve, and it left me blind.
I'm blind in my left eye.
And so, mhmm, so it was really challenging, butit was also the gift I never knew I needed
(01:00:26):
because I was pushing myself so hard.
You you guys can hear, I think, through theshow, just through the times.
I'm a go getter.
I've nationally ranked horse competitor.
Like, this is like, I just am this way.
But this thorn that had was now left in my sidewhen I was 24 years old, actually, oh my gosh.
(01:00:46):
I just didn't realize it.
October 4th was my 20 years being blind in myleft eye.
Crazy.
Wow.
Is that if if I didn't have this as a constantreminder, I would keep pushing myself where I
might not be here because my health was, like,I was just going going going going going.
And so now I have this little reminder thattells me, Shelly, calm it down.
(01:01:10):
Go chill out.
Go to the gym.
Take care of yourself.
Like, nutrition and and exercise are two 2things that are incredibly important to me, but
I always take care of me first.
And then when I feel great, guess what?
I'm a better wife.
I'm a better mother.
I am a better leader.
I am better for everybody else when I take careof me first.
(01:01:31):
And so I can't say that enough to all my fellowbusiness colleagues out there that are doing
the things, still do the things.
I'm not saying stop.
I'm just saying you gotta take care of yourselffirst.
So those are the 2 things because it's been 20
Wow.
That's powerful.
Yeah.
I love that answer.
Thank you for sharing.
You're welcome.
If somebody wanted to get a hold of you,Shelley, what would be the best way for them to
(01:01:54):
do that?
So the best way, let's connect on socials.
I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn.
LinkedIn, my nemesis.
Sometimes it's getting easier.
I like it, guys.
I like it now.
But LinkedIn, Instagram, and, I am on YouTube,slowly growing over there, learning a lot over
there.
Right?
Alright.
Sparking curiosity over there.
We will, make sure we drop those links in theshow notes.
(01:02:17):
Is there any other parting words you'd like tosay before we say our goodbyes?
No.
Just thank you so much.
This has been a a really fun conversation andand so great getting to to know both of you.
Awesome.
Well, you've been awesome.
Listeners, I hope you had as good and excitingof a time as we had, and until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(01:02:37):
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(01:02:57):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time,
keep building scale.
Scale.
You should have had that in the original bidthat covers the entire month of care for that
(00:04):
animal.
Like, don't no.
That's on you now.
Not you're not dropping that on me.
And so because we felt it, we don't wanna dothat to anybody else.
And a lot of like, we're people too.
Like, we we're people too.
It is it is what has been one of the most mindboggling things about coming to this industry
(00:24):
and taking a forward, like, a forward facingposition is when I go into rooms and people are
like, oh, what do you do?
Right?
After they've already assumed I do businessdevelopment because I'm, like, a woman in
construction is I'm I'm like, oh, I'm a generalcontractor.
And they're like, oh.
Like, it's an immediate, like, oh.
(00:45):
Like, we already hate you.
Like, I'm judged.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
(01:05):
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
(01:26):
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the 3 pillars of scaling a business
are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
(01:50):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is Shelly Bryan, co owner ofBryan Contracting, a commercial construction
firm based here in Scottsdale, Arizona.
With her over 2 decades of diverseentrepreneurial experience in finance,
medicine, restaurants, and media, Shelly bringsa unique perspective to the construction
(02:12):
industry.
Ryan Contracting specializes in delivering highquality general contracting and construction
management services for commercial projects,focusing on exceeding client expectations
through open communication and strongrelationships.
Construction company and host of the More
Action podcast, she shares candid insights and
actionable strategies, helping othersaccelerate their growth.
Balancing her roles as business leader,competitive equestrian, wife and mother,
(02:42):
Shelley draws on her diverse background toinspire thoughtful, intentional action as the
key to success.
Her journey is proof that every step, no matterhow varied, leads to future success when
grounded in action and perseverance.
With all that said, Shelley, welcome to theshow.
Holy cow.
Well, thank you.
(03:02):
I'm super excited to, be here with you guys andquite the intro.
I should have, you know, I'll send you guysthe, the short short bio for round 2 when we do
round 2.
We'll do the condensed version.
I like to really get all the nitty gritty goodstuff right out the gate, which I know I'll
never be able to hit all of it.
But before I ask you to to give us the quicksummary or the summary you'd say, I do want to
(03:27):
applaud you.
I was on the More Action podcast a month agoish, somewhere in that ballpark.
And it was the best, guest experience that Ihad ever had on any podcast.
So thank you so much for being extraordinarilygreat at that as well as, just a good all
around thought provoking podcast.
Well, okay.
(03:47):
Let's just close the show up right now.
We're good to go.
You guys just throw that out.
No.
Justin, you are a great guest.
It was it's just a fun, fun conversation, whichI know that we're gonna have here today.
So I'm I'm really excited to be able to pay itforward, come together, here virtually with the
3 of us, and and let's see, what kind of magicwe can make.
(04:09):
Totally.
So, like I said, I said all this great stuffabout you, but please give us the the real
story, the the real origin story as we say,background, and then how you went from all
these other types of business into constructionspace.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I feel like the the origin story.
Like, we need the wavy screen to, like, takeyou back in time.
(04:30):
So a couple decades ago.
Right?
There There you go, Justin.
Couple decades ago, I mean, it all started inthe financial industry.
So I was in the financial industry, was there,built a huge book of book business, decided I
don't wanna do this anymore, moved on to thepharmaceutical industry.
So I was in the pharmaceutical industry for aspan of nearly 17 years, and I was only with 2
(04:55):
organizations over that time.
And they couldn't have been more diverse fromeach other, but and and culture and and all the
things.
So maybe we'll talk about that here.
And then after that, I got done.
I was done.
I don't know anyone tuning in on the show thathas ever had a corporate career and just had
enough.
I was I had enough.
(05:16):
I topped off.
And I thought, shoot.
Why not open a restaurant?
That'd be super fun.
Like, let's go do that.
That was a that was a really fun I feel like Iblacked out, like, during that time frame.
I I like to believe I blacked out during thattime frame.
So after the restaurant ownership, I had takena a previous Internet company, tech company
(05:41):
that I created when I was born in corporate.
Transition that when everything was going onand everything was shut down into a media
company.
So I did restaurant, then I transitioned overto media, specifically in the equine industry
because as you mentioned, I do show horsesnationally and had a lot of learning ex we'll
(06:02):
call them learning experiences with apartnership, to then realize that, my husband
and I, Chris, have both been, you know, verydriven in in our lives and the things that
we've done.
And just looking at the construction companythat, I mean, we were in commercial crushing to
(06:25):
then when he started general contracting.
I was behind the scenes, but never took aforward facing role, and we were like, okay.
We have so much going on, and we can't spreadourselves any more thin, plus we're parents and
married and all the things.
Let's go all in on the construction company.
And so I had no experience in constructionother than, like, behind the scenes managing
(06:47):
financials and stuff like that, but I was neverforward facing on the field, meeting with other
people.
And ever since we made that decision, we shutdown all other businesses, all other things,
went a 100% all in.
It's literally been the best decision thatwe've ever made, just financially, mentally,
growth oriented, everything.
(07:09):
So that's kind of my background of getting intoconstruction.
It had nothing to do with my education orprevious work experience or anything.
It just was the the next path in, that I neededto take that I'm so glad I did.
Okay.
First question right off the bat, because wegotta talk about this.
(07:30):
Mhmm.
You're a husband wife combo, which is already apretty rare thing.
Mhmm.
And I know I've been my wife and I are alsopartners in our business.
Mhmm.
Boundaries.
Are boundaries a thing in your company?
How talk talk to me a little bit about that.
I love, Will, that you, like, call this out toto begin with, because it is a hot topic.
(07:55):
In other interviews that I've been on recently,everyone's like, oh my gosh.
You worked with your husband?
I'd kill mine.
You know what I mean?
Like, they're like, no way could I ever dothat.
And that it's so like, we're 1st, we're veryblessed.
I'm gonna give you the good and the bad, all ofit.
We're very blessed because each other'sstrengths is the opposite's weakness.
So we balance each other really, really well.
(08:17):
The other thing is is that when Chris and Icame, we met almost 25 years ago, and we were
together almost 5 years before we got married.
We're about ready to celebrate 20 years beingmarried.
Okay.
And so, yes, very rare feat.
Not how either one of us are raised, 2 divorcefamily.
(08:38):
Like, we're the opposite of everything that wesaw.
Well, we try to be.
Let's let's put it that way.
We we know what not to do.
Sometimes we do it anyways.
But one cool thing about working with yourspouse when you started like us.
So I I do think that, we had a little bit of anunfair advantage in the sense that we had
(08:58):
nothing when we got together.
So everything we've done together You know whatI mean?
And when you have that, like, when youexperience failures, setbacks, things that are
challenging, like, you've been there before.
The person supports you too.
Like, having your spouse support you makesgetting through those really bad failures a lot
(09:22):
easier.
It it's not easy.
It's just easier, you know, when when you areboth in that supportive, like, more risk
advantageous, we like risk.
We we we see it as an opportunity to grow.
So that has been something that I feel hasgiven us an advantage to be able to work
together now.
Now when it comes to boundaries, Will, I amanti boundary.
(09:47):
I know that social media gurus are like, createboundaries and only work on this time and don't
work at that time and don't talk about businessif you're on a date.
Heaven forbid.
Like like, don't do all these things.
Right?
And and and that's, like, another, like like,frame of mind that I don't love.
It's like, don't do this.
Don't do this.
(10:07):
Don't do this.
It's like, what do you do?
Well, Chris and I both love to talk business.
We both absolutely, number 1, look at our mostimportant or important partnership is our
marriage.
Number 1.
And so we invest time into that.
So I don't wanna say we aren't boundary driven.
Like, we talk business all the time, but it'snot the only thing we talk about.
(10:32):
However, in order to make our marriage stay,like, the priority is that it's an investment
in time, effort, money, thought, all of thisstuff.
And so, I shared this with you previously,Justin.
I know I think we talked about, Will, is wehave two dates every single week.
We have a Wednesday night date night, and thenwe have a Friday day date, that we do every
(10:56):
single week.
Plus we have an executive meeting.
So that meeting is 100% business.
Our dates are whatever we wanna talk about.
And, a little key thing I will drop for otherhusband and wife teams that are out there
working or spouse teams is the Friday day dateis clutch.
(11:18):
If you own a business together, first off,like, you own your time, so be done Friday
afternoon.
Before the kids get out of school, you don'thave to pay for childcare.
You don't have to worry about the kids.
Go to a day date, and then you finish up andpick them up from school.
It is the best thing ever.
And so that has is how we we've been able to doit.
Because I know that there's, you know, parentsthat don't have family nearby or it's tough to
(11:41):
find childcare.
There's always a way to make it happen.
You just have to think a little bit outside thebox.
So boundaries, no with, like, a we we have,like, some things that are important for us
that we keep a priority, but we don't haveboundaries in the sense of we don't like, I
hate don't.
We we we just aren't, like, don't do this.
(12:02):
Don't do this.
Like, if we wanna talk about business, that'sgreat.
But then we'll talk about what trip we wanna goon or something that happened fun with the
kids.
So it just, like, lets the the conversationflow and, I think just really kind of embrace
the imbalance of where we are in our businessright now.
That's a good entrepreneurial marriage hack.
The Friday day date.
(12:23):
That's that's that's that's perfect.
That makes tons of sense.
When we we, start talking, I mentioned that youwere in corporate.
You had your corporate life, way before.
What have you pulled from corporate, that youyou know, now that you're running a
construction business that you, 1, have seen,like, this is horrible.
Let's not do this.
(12:44):
But then also, like, hey.
This actually works and this makes a lot ofsense.
What a great question.
You know, because I'll sit here, and I'll bethe first one to be like, oh my gosh.
Corporate America sucks.
Don't do it.
It's horrible.
But I will also say that it was some of thebest training, education, experiences that I've
(13:06):
ever had.
And so when I look at kind of how I've beenable to pull a lot of my corporate experience
of what to do and what not to do into ourbusiness.
There's a there's a few things that that cometo mind.
Number 1 is when I first got intopharmaceuticals, this was, I mean, this was,
(13:28):
like, o 4 ish.
So 20 years ago.
Wow.
That mean oh, wow.
Okay.
Age just really hit me.
I might have to update the bio because it'sgreater than 2 decades.
So, this is in, like, o four.
In that time frame, the pharmaceutical industrywas very different than it is now.
Some will say it was worse because it wasn't asregulated.
Some will say it was better because it what itwasn't.
(13:50):
And I had a lot of, fun and autonomy there.
And one of the things that the first companydid that I was that I was with is they really
fostered intrepreneurs.
Okay?
So as an intrepreneur is that I wasn't Idefinitely have always had the entrepreneurial
spirit, but I was raised to go get a job.
(14:10):
Right?
Have a 401 k, stay there forever, retire.
Like, that was how I was raised.
And so that's what I did.
Not knowing that naturally, I had a lot ofthis, like, entrepreneurism and, like, mindset
and wanted to grow and build.
And when I was with this company that long ago,there was still a lot of opportunity to foster
those relationships.
So, like, I did things that the industry hadnever saw saw.
(14:34):
I was able to come.
I came with a plan.
I put it together.
I delivered it to executives at, like, thehighest levels.
They knew me.
I knew them.
They knew more than me, and they were I wasable to sell them to to, create certain
processes that maybe we tested in 1 or 2markets that then rolled out to the entire
country.
So it was very neat because they fostered thatentrepreneurial, mindset that I already had.
(15:00):
And I feel like I could tell you by the end,that was not there.
And a lot of it is because of the restrictionsof that specific industry.
However, when I speak with other people, eitherin the AEC industry or elsewhere, those best
team members, those best employees are the onesthat feel like they have ownership, and that's
truly what entrepreneurship is is all about.
(15:22):
So I am bringing that over as we are bringingon executive level and and all the growth that
we're having is that we want to find thosepeople so that we don't we don't have to I
don't wanna say manage them, but we wanna givethem all the tools to go do what they do and
and create stuff that we don't even know aboutyet.
So I think that is incredibly important, and Isaw both sides of it, and I experienced both
(15:45):
sides.
So I can understand and see that.
Another thing, and it comes back to thisownership.
And, you know, we talked about this previously,but if you're gonna pull it's really funny
because, you know, we're growing right now, andwe're thinking about the, team members that we
wanna bring on.
(16:06):
And I am all about paying for performance.
I think that if we want to expect exceptionalresults, we need to give our team members the
ability to do that, and that comes withownership in their ability to make tons of
money.
Right?
(16:26):
Is that it's not just about us making money.
It's, like, how can we help them make money sothat they can go get the house that they always
wanted, go on the trip, per you know, sendtheir kids to a private school?
Like, how can we help them do that?
And so by tying their metrics to things theycan actually control, I think is one of the
best things that you can do for anybody, and itwill naturally foster that entrepreneurial
(16:50):
group of people.
Right?
And so whether it's a business development orlike a project manager, how do we affect like,
how do we help them have a greater effect onthe things that they manage?
And so we're constantly asking ourselves, like,how can we do this?
We're interviewing right now for a PM and asuper.
And while we can tie it to certain things, somethings are out of their control.
(17:12):
And I have been in that position before where,you know, like, say in the pharmaceutical
industry, where, like, my quota was some randomnumber that they gave me, and there was, like,
no way.
There was, like, no amount of calls.
There was no amount of effort that I could doto get there, and that's a very defeating place
to be.
And for someone like me, that's like, okay.
(17:34):
I'm gonna win.
I'm gonna be the best.
I'm gonna go.
I can do this.
I'm gonna work harder than them, and I'm gonnabe smarter.
And, like, all these things, and it stopped mybrain thinking like that when I had no control
in my overall result.
So I feel like that is something that we haveto tie to every position that we can.
And whether it's, like, a year end goal, maybeit's, like, increasing customer service.
(17:56):
You know?
What does that look like?
How do we measure that?
There are metrics out there to be able to doall of this.
And so I think pulling that over to this isincredibly important.
And then the other thing and this was this iskind of a funny one.
Maybe a little cliche.
Maybe a little silly.
I don't know.
But in the pharmaceutical industry, when Ifirst started, they would always talk about and
(18:20):
it started to annoy me at the end because Iknew they really didn't care.
But they'd always be like, we're changingpeople's lives.
Like, we are.
And and there were certain drugs that we thatwere.
Absolutely.
I was in dermatology.
This is your skin.
Right?
And one of the drugs that I sold back in 2004,it's now over the counter.
It's so crazy.
Put my son on it.
I'm like, I know.
I know the pathogenesis of acne.
(18:42):
Let me help you, son.
But this drug, when you have someone that hassomething on their face or on their skin, it's
can be debilitating for them.
Right?
And if we're able to provide medication andcare to where now, they're no longer hiding in
their house.
They're no longer depressed.
They're actually able to go get the job thatthey want, meet somebody, make a friend.
(19:02):
Like, all of that's changing their life.
And I'm going back.
The pharmaceutical industry isn't always likethis anymore.
I will say I'm a little jaded on it now becauseI just know that the medical system is broken
and how bad it is.
However, there are certain drugs, there arecertain doctors that are incredible that they
are changing people's lives.
And that's one of our taglines actually withour construction company is we're changing
(19:26):
people's lives.
And Chris and I, we just talked about it lastnight on Thursday or Wednesday night, date
night.
We were talking about the fact that, like, cashflow, money, growth.
Because now we have so many people that aredependent on us that are on our team that,
like, we we are, like, we're changing theirlife.
Like, we are we are helping them provide fortheir families.
(19:48):
And so it is so important, like, what we aredoing is changing the lives of our team members
and our clients because, ultimately, they canopen their business.
They're changing the lives of the community forwhoever they serve.
Right?
Whatever it is.
I mean, we're we're working on a a drivethrough coffee shop right now.
Like, that's gonna make someone's day, and thatis, like, you can't overlook that.
(20:10):
You can think, like, oh, it's just a coffeeshop.
Whatever.
Like, who cares?
They're everywhere.
It's not one of the big brand name ones, soit's a little bit fun to do that too.
But it's, like, we are making their livesbetter, and and then those business owners can
provide for their families.
So it's kind of like those 3 those things thatthat we there's a whole bunch more, but, those
are kind of the three things I think about asfar as being able to transition corporate to
(20:34):
running a business right now in the AECindustry.
So okay.
You talked about something, that I definitelywanna bring up.
So growth, leads to needing more people, butthis can lead to a chicken and the egg problem.
Mhmm.
The chicken and the egg problem is, do youbuild the team first, or do you build the
(20:57):
revenue first to support the team?
Mhmm.
Right?
Because if you if you because if you, let'ssay, build the revenue, right, build the
pipeline, sell the deal, whatever it is, butyou don't have the people for it, you could
potentially fail on the project or jobs or setof jobs.
But if you don't, but if you build the team andyou don't have the supporting revenue, you're
going to have to lose them.
(21:18):
Right?
Because at some point, the company's not gonnabe able to support them.
So, yeah, it's it's a bit of a chicken and theegg problem, especially since finding the right
people, it's not like they're, out on themarket right when you need them.
So what do you do?
Do you build the team or you build the revenue?
What's your answer to that?
Such a great question, and such a relevantquestion, Will.
(21:42):
First off, your whole when you say egg,everyone listening in, did you hear that?
I'm like, wow.
He's Midwest.
Like, egg.
I can't I can't even I can't even do it.
I was like I I felt like Chris is from Chicagotoo, and, like, there's certain, like, cash
cash.
Like, I can't and I'm like, oh.
So I was like, no.
No.
There you go.
(22:02):
Okay.
Okay.
So so I had to call that out.
Sorry, guys.
Because I'm like, wow.
I'm an Arizona native.
We do not say egg like that.
So it was very unique.
And this question is so relevant because rightnow, as far as the growth that we're
experiencing, I remember at the beginning ofthe year, Chris and I, we we were going back
(22:25):
and forth.
Right?
Like, okay.
What which one is the right way?
We were looking at case studies, othercompanies.
How did they do it?
Right?
Just, like, trying to understand and make thebest decision because we do have so many
people, clients, you know, our team that dependon us.
And we wanna do it right.
And right is such a relevant term too.
(22:47):
Right?
I wanna call that out because it's not right orwrong.
It's just this is the way we're doing it.
And ultimately, this is the way.
I I hate labels.
And so what I will say is that when it cameback to us, the most important thing when it
came to our construction company because we'vehad other businesses where I think this
decision is a little bit easier to make for us.
(23:10):
It all came back to cash flow.
We were like cash flow, cash flow, cash flow.
And in the way in which we run this business,we have so much cash out at times that we need
to make sure that the machine keeps going.
And so it was all about cash flow for us.
So in in my opinion and experience in thisbusiness, right, I might argue this different
(23:34):
for a different business, but in this business,cash flow.
So we are all about business development, howwe are gonna do it.
We are approaching it a little bit differentthan most, and then bringing on, the team
after.
And so that has allowed us also when you havethe cash flow when we are looking at people to
(23:56):
bring on, like, we I will 100% pay for talent.
100%.
Without a doubt.
Because if they have the talent, theexperience, the know how, and just the overall
demeanor to be able to make great decisions inthe the kind of, like, long term approach that
that we take, I will pay for that all day long.
(24:17):
And so I just feel that, like, cash flow is theway to go.
You mentioned that you had a differentperspective, in BD.
What is what does that mean?
What what is your you do it a little bitdifferently, I think is what you said.
Well, it's funny because I used to be BD,right, for, pharmaceuticals.
(24:38):
Like, the like, I did this for many years.
When I was in the financial I had a like, whenI was a financial adviser, I made 400 dials a
day.
I, like, knew my metrics, what I need.
I was I was my own business development thentoo.
So, like, I know the work that it takes.
I know that the type of personality, becauseyou have to be doing the work that you have to
(25:00):
be willing to do the work that no one else willdo.
I think number 1.
Yeah.
Number 2, you also have to, like, make surethat you get that person that wants because I
think that there's a carrot and a stick.
I don't know if you guys have have heard this.
Right?
Like, so the carrot, you wanna chase the prize,and the stick is you never wanna go back.
Right?
So, like, that pushes you forward.
(25:21):
And maybe it's, like, a fear or a big failurethat pushes you forward.
And in my experience, when it came to BDpeople, is you gotta find the carrot.
Right?
The carrot people are the ones that we want,and then you gotta incentivize it in a way that
they can, control it and actually achieve it.
We want to pay to be able to do that.
(25:42):
So when I go to events, that are AEC events,and it's funny, a whole another topic, walking
in as a woman.
Everyone's like, oh, yeah.
You're the BD person for Brian Development.
I'm like, do you not see my last name?
Like, in no way.
Like, is that, like, I'm just a BD person.
(26:04):
And I say that with a grain of salt, and Iunderstand that might, like, ruffle some
feathers, and that's okay.
But I hope that this provides a little bit ofperspective because when I see certain BD
people at these events, I can tell, like,they're not incentivized appropriately to be
able to do the work like, to want to do thework that no one wants to do.
(26:26):
Right?
Have awkward conversations, meet people,follow-up, make the extra call that no one
wants to do.
Like, all these things, I can tell exactly whoare the great BD people and aren't.
And that is something that when we are going tobring on right now, this is something that the
the way that Chris and I are doing it, this issomething that Chris and I own right now.
(26:48):
Probably, by q one, we won't own it anymoredirectly, but is that we want our person to be
seen differently.
And so because of that, we're gonna hiresomeone probably outside the industry that is
gonna look at this with a fresh set of eyes.
Look at the AEC industry with a fresh set ofeyes.
We're gonna incentivize them in a way to drivethe behavior that we actually want, and we're
(27:13):
gonna give them a lot of lot of freakingownership to go do it.
But then we're gonna have metrics.
Right?
That how are they going to how are we going tomanage their success and help them take full
ownership in that?
And so business development for Chris and Iright now to just kinda answer a little bit for
(27:33):
for you, Justin.
Like, I'm forward thinking on how I'm going tocreate this role and the person I wanna have
into it.
But for Chris and I, we made a decision at thebeginning of this year instead of going wide,
we went really deep in our relationships.
And from an owner's perspective, that has beena lucrative approach for us.
That's awesome.
(27:54):
You mentioned metrics.
Metrics are very intriguing because, they tella tale.
They certainly do.
Hey.
This person is performing to the level at whichwe want them to or not, but where is that
balance that comes to?
Because it looking at it straight black andwhite is not always the the perfect or right
(28:14):
as, you know, a path.
So how do you view that, and how do you balancethe I I wanna look at the metrics because
they're important, obviously, but I also needto understand the individual in in a little bit
more.
Yeah.
You know, and, just relating to, like, metrics,KPIs Mhmm.
I think, number 1, I I in my opinion, I thinkthere are some that are that need to stay and
(28:39):
then some that waiver a little bit with withwhere that person is or where the business is.
It needs to be flexible.
If we stay with metrics that we used 5 yearsago, that's not gonna make any right?
Like, that doesn't make any sense.
The the overall market has changed.
Same thing with people.
Right?
If the person hasn't changed in 5 years, mightbe time for a change, either in leadership or
(29:01):
the person.
Right?
Like, I'm not gonna point the finger eitherway, but it would be either way.
And so, I think when it comes to metrics andpeople, there's more to the story.
Right?
And for for us, it's funny.
I was thinking we we do these really cool,like, media days with our clients at project
completion and and stuff like that, and we weinterview Chris too.
(29:24):
He's not always fun to get on camera.
Like, he doesn't like it.
So I when we have media day, I make him do it.
And one of the questions I asked him was, whatis he looking forward to in the next 5 to 10
years with Brian contracting?
And his number one answer was people.
It's like, we want to be able to developpeople.
And if the people stay with us, you know, 20years or longer or what have you, great.
(29:48):
But if they only wanna stay with us for 2years, we are gonna develop them the same way.
We're gonna invest into them the same way.
Because if they go on and they go elsewhere andthey're like whoever hires them, they're gonna
be like, wow.
We're always gonna hire Brian contractingpeople because they were trained appropriately.
They were treated appropriately.
They brought stuff over here.
(30:08):
And so for us, it's like the metrics is likethe full picture of the person and the efforts
that they're doing.
Because, listen, there are days, and I've beenin this, there's been years that no matter what
you do, you're beating your head against thewall.
And, like, you just can't make, you you justcan't make the change.
You you just can't elicit the response thatyou're trying to get.
(30:32):
And it might be a 100% out of your control.
Right?
But if they are doing all the things that arewithin their control and proof of that, I can't
fault them for the result just yet.
Right?
It's kind of like that meme or the characterwhere, like, they're picking, trying to find
gold, and, like, they they stop just before theend.
(30:54):
And I feel like when we only look at metrics,we stop just before the end before this person
turns into gold.
And so I think it's really important to usemetrics because they help drive behaviors, but
they aren't the full story.
So that's how I look at metrics both in thebusiness.
(31:14):
I I think the business and the financial side,the project side, like, we can look at stuff,
but then we we can, like, start askingourselves.
You'll hear and I think that's what everybody'shopefully picking up right now is, like, we ask
our ourselves a lot of questions.
Like, is this what we wanted?
Is this the behavior that we wanted?
Did we manage this right?
What would we have done differently next time?
Like, we are we are always asking ourselvesquestions to elicit thought and curiosity to
(31:35):
see what can come from, you know, eachexperience is a learning opportunity, good or
bad.
Okay.
So, obviously, you had said that there's somewavering in sort of what you're measuring.
You still there still needs to be somemeasuring.
There's a we'll call it a gut check.
(31:56):
So when do KPIs specifically not work for you?
Do you have any examples of, like that you'veseen where KPIs don't work?
I will say a specific example right now.
I don't have one currently with ourconstruction company.
I don't.
Well, I have a I have a fun one I could tell.
(32:18):
Okay.
I've got one.
There you
go.
I'm like, just give me a second.
Let me rack the brain a little bit.
So this is this is a really kind of fun one andand hopefully relatable.
So social media.
K?
Let's talk social media for a second.
It's, so important, right, and so challengingall at the same time.
(32:40):
It sounds like marriage.
Sounds like working with your spouse.
Right?
Sounds like it.
Just like working with your spouse.
Just like working with your spouse.
Like, you hate it, but you love it at the sametime.
So what we're doing and and where I'm leadingmy my team right now with kind of our social
media, our marketing, our PR, in theconstruction industry is a little bit different
(33:02):
than what has always been done.
And so funny because you want to look at themetrics.
Right?
Like reach, engagement, views, like all thesedifferent you want to look at these hard
metrics, And the metrics will tell you, right,growth, followers, connections, subscribers.
(33:24):
Like, these tell you, okay.
Like, we're on the right direction.
They can tell you, you know, like, what hitshome with people, what doesn't.
But then you can, like, look at, are weeliciting the response we want, like a call or
an introduction?
Like, you gotta set all these metrics.
Right?
But there is a unspoken metric that I feel likesocial media, specifically in this industry,
(33:48):
which is so funny.
And it this is where corporate this is, like,all my corporate stuff starts, like, driving me
crazy because I fought LinkedIn for a whilebecause I felt like corporate America to me.
Everybody was just patting each other on theback.
Oh, good job.
Thanks so much for sharing that.
Oh, good.
Yay.
And I'm like, no.
That sucked, actually.
Why are you why are you talking about that?
(34:09):
Like, I'm just like my mind is like, this is Iam not I don't have to do that anymore.
I'm not in corporate, right, where I have topat all the like, all the executives just pat
each other's backs telling them how amazingthey are instead of being like, no.
That actually sucked, and I think we could dobetter.
Like, here's right?
So social media, you think, like, theinfluencers, the big names, the big reach, the
(34:33):
this, like, you think those are, like, themetrics.
Like, oh, they're killing it.
Like, that's awesome.
Like, oh, this one went viral.
You hear all these, like, terms and stuff.
And then it's like you have us, who we aredoing something just a little bit different.
Right?
You know, it's more tied to one of our corevalues as an organization and what we're doing
with social media.
(34:54):
And I'm looking at Chris and I and thecompany's brand as 3 separate brands, and I
look at it 10 years out, what I want them tolook like, what we're gonna be doing 10 years
from now, kind of all of those things.
But the coolest thing that you can't run ametric to and I think engagement is is one of
those ones that you have to be cautious withbecause we'll walk into Chris does have a
(35:18):
brand.
It's me and my team, just so we know.
Okay?
He does not do social media, but he walks intoan event.
And someone that he Chris has been incommercial real estate since 05, so 20 years
almost.
Someone he hasn't seen in a decade walks rightup to him and he's like, oh my gosh.
Chris, like, you're killing it on LinkedIn.
(35:40):
I got all your stuff, and it's just, like, a meand I'm sitting there, and Chris has no idea
what he's talking about because, of course,he's not the one doing it.
And I'm I'm sitting there smiling and grinningbecause I watch all the metrics on social media
to see what topics hit and what we need tofocus on.
And I'm watching all of this, and I'm justsmiling because this gentleman who I've known
(36:02):
for for 20 years too.
Right?
Because Chris and I have been together.
He's never liked, commented, or done anythingon any of Chris's social media on LinkedIn.
Yep.
Not once.
And I'm like, Like, talking about personalbrand, it's not just about engagement.
I think we call them lurkers.
(36:23):
Yeah.
I think
it it's baffling how much how many timesthat'll be somewhere if somebody I know, like,
not like a stranger, but somebody I know that'slike, oh my god.
I love your post.
I do a gratitude post, but I love yourgratitude post.
And I'm like, I had no idea you even saw it.
Like, it was just like, how could I possiblydo?
It's like, I look forward to you every week.
(36:45):
And I'm like, what?
You no love?
You're not gonna show me a love, man?
What's what's what's going on here?
This is the you know?
And it's I I don't know otherwise.
But, no, you're totally spot on there.
Like, that's absolutely right where there is,there's not a metric for that.
How do you how do you how do you, you know, putthat into a formula?
I don't know.
Every time I interact that way, I I mark itdown somewhere, that's that's not feasible.
(37:09):
Nope.
Nope.
And that's where I think there are some things.
I mean, that is proof.
That story is proof.
What you just shared, like, that's proof thatyou can't make decisions solely on metrics.
You can't.
They can help influence decisions or orchanges, but you can't so like, because if that
was the case, like, we shut down social media.
Like, we don't it is not a direct businessdriver for us, but it is a very indirect brand
(37:42):
booster for us.
Let's call it that.
Yeah.
Right?
So it creates authority for us.
It's not like a vanity thing for us.
Oh, boy.
That's that's that's a great point.
Yeah.
That was a great answer to, to the questionaround KPIs.
I loved it's a good good version of where KPIsdon't work yet.
(38:03):
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
There's obviously there's obviously somesomething behind them.
So Yep.
Okay.
All right.
What about so we talked a little bit, KPIs,decision making.
There's things that are hard metrics.
Financials, right?
That's a bit harder.
(38:24):
And then there's softer metrics, because,especially in the business development world,
right, it's hard to make someone make adecision faster.
Most of the time, it's not slower.
You don't want to make a decision slower, butmake a decision faster.
You don't know what's going on in their theirlives or what's happening in the context of
(38:44):
whatever's happening in their world.
Right?
Mhmm.
So, would you say, from a metrics perspective,when it comes to people, does what's happening
in their lives, in their personal lives matter?
And does it give influence to hardware metrics?
(39:08):
And if so, how?
What a great question.
This is a this is a really, really goodquestion.
And it's interesting because I can I can thinkback to different periods of of all the careers
that I've had, where I actually appreciatedthat what was going on in your life didn't
(39:32):
matter?
Right?
It it didn't matter.
Either you made it or you didn't.
So, like, feast or famine, figure it out.
And I can say that in a certain person that,like, pushed the response.
So what immediately I thought about was when Iwas a financial adviser, you started I was,
(39:52):
like, one of 15 brokers.
The new recruits think boiler room.
I want you to think boiler room.
Right?
I was one
of the the new 15.
There were only 2 girls, the rest all men.
And you start out at a salary while you'regetting your 7 and your 66 so that you can
trade.
And then all of a sudden, like, your salarystarts decreasing because you should be selling
(40:15):
to replace your salary.
Right?
And if you don't make that transition, you loseyour job.
Like, very easy.
Right?
Very black and white.
So part of me actually likes that becausethere's no guesswork either.
I knew what my performance metric was.
I delivered, and that was it.
(40:36):
I was only one of 2 brokers that actually madethat graduating class.
Everybody else was no longer employed there.
Right?
And so it sparked something in me in what Icould do.
I didn't realize, like, what I could do.
Right?
So I think that sometimes having really hardmetrics like that, you can surprise yourself in
(40:58):
what you're capable of, right, if you just putyour head down and freaking work.
That being said, I mean, my health took a majortoll during that period, right, that I, you
know, had to navigate through.
So it's like I see both both sides of it.
What I can tell you is, like, right now, inwhat we're looking at with with our country or
(41:22):
our company right now, And what makes me thinkof it is not even and this is like a whole
another dynamic, Will, is we work withsubcontractors.
Right?
We we hold a contract with them.
They're not an employee.
Very, very different relationship.
Right?
And we are in the business, right, ofcommercial constructions changing lives.
(41:44):
It also means for the people that don'tdirectly work for us.
We talked about clients.
It also means subcontractors.
But we are also very focused on developingsubcontractors because that gives us a better
pool to play this game with.
So some of the things that we will do is if wegive a new sub contractor to, like, our group
(42:07):
an opportunity to not only bid, but then winthe job.
We award them the job, and let's say somethinghappens, they they realize we are not change
order.
We we change orders are not a profit line itemfor us as most construction companies, and then
they try to hit us with certain stuff, or theytry to do certain stuff, or they leave a messy
(42:28):
job site, or, you know, they do all thesethings.
We'll coach them through the first time.
A 100%.
These guys don't work for us, but there is alevel, there is a standard that we hold on our
job sites and a level of communication,follow-up, paperwork that they have to uphold
for us a standard.
And we'll coach them through the first time anda 100% give them a a second chance.
(42:51):
Once we give them the second chance, that's ourbreaking point.
It's either they rise to the occasion or theyfall off.
And if they fall off, it's done.
Like, there's no there's no third chance.
We're done.
Because we are changing the lives for everybodythat's involved.
So that's our other subcontractors.
And if this one, because it's such a dominoeffect, there's such a ripple effect, is, like,
(43:17):
everybody's success is dependent upon the lastperson in line.
And so we can't afford that to happen to ourother subcontractors.
So I think it is important that there's wenever know what is going on in people's lives.
We never know.
I think giving everybody a second chance is,like, a humane and and and a a very, like,
(43:44):
leader forward thing to do, and give them thecoaching and the tools to be able to rise up.
If they choose not to at that point, you'vedone everything in your control.
It was on them.
They aren't able to deliver, and now we moveon, and that's okay.
And I think when you have that strong filter,you can give those people the the second
(44:05):
chance, but then you gotta move on becausethere's a bigger picture at stake.
And if they can't see it, that's okay.
We can't control it.
We're just gonna move on.
You mentioned not utilizing change orders is ais a big place where you you gain, dollars.
How did how one, that's different, which couldbe super cool.
(44:27):
One, how do you make that actually work?
Because that seems like things change on jobsthat all the time.
Like, that's like, how do you Mhmm.
How do you prevent, you know, change ordersfrom happening?
Or how do you how do you get that to workfiscally?
No.
It's interesting you picked up on that andmaybe some of your, listeners did too.
But for us, we're business owners too.
(44:50):
Right?
And so we hire vendors, horses, like, I I havea professional trainer.
If I start getting nickeled and dimed forstuff, which I have.
I've been competing on horses for over 35years.
If I get nickeled and dimed for something, Ilose it.
Because I'm like, no.
You should have had that in the original bidthat covers the entire month of care for that
(45:12):
animal.
Like, don't no.
That's on you now.
Not you're not dropping that on me.
And so because we felt it, we don't wanna dothat to anybody else.
And a lot of like, we're people too.
Like, we we're people too.
It is it is what has been one of the most mindboggling things about coming to this industry
(45:33):
and taking a forward, like, a forward facingposition is when I go into rooms and people are
like, oh, what do you do?
Right?
After they've already assumed I do businessdevelopment because I'm like a woman in
construction, is I'm I'm like, oh, I'm ageneral contractor.
And they're like, oh.
Like, it's an immediate, like, oh.
(45:53):
Like, we already hate you.
Like, they I'm judged.
We don't like you.
You're a general contractor.
You don't you take extra time.
You make it cost more money.
Like, seriously, I like I like laugh.
I like do it on purpose now, so I'm gonna seewhat reaction I get, because it's funny to me.
What I see that as and what we see that as,like, the bar is really low.
(46:16):
The bar is really low.
What a great opportunity.
Right?
So change orders are probably one of thebiggest things that we hear from when it comes
to, like, architecture and design, the client,is that they're like, oh, god.
Change orders.
Like, oh, what what are they gonna go throughme now?
And this is something where Chris and I havebeen very strategic in our growth because this
(46:37):
is one thing that can kill a relationship
Oh, yeah.
Is, you know, you give a bid because you hiredon an estimator that was, like, new and didn't
have the training and whatever, and you givethem a bid, and it's low, so you win the
contract.
That's a whole another topic we could talkabout.
But, like, you win the contract as low bid,regardless of quality, low bid wins, and then
(47:01):
they start to get to work.
And they're like, oh, we forgot the ceilinggrid.
Sorry.
Here's a $25,000 change order.
Right?
Sorry.
It's like, wait.
No.
That's not how it works.
And so we actually spend a significant amountof time.
Like, we invest more time than most, I willsay, in our bidding process.
So when we give a bid, that is the bid.
(47:24):
Period.
And if there is a change order, it's at theclient's request.
So our goal is to never have a change orderunless it's at the client's request.
Unforeseen unforeseen situations, circumstanceshappen, but, honestly, Chris and the team and
and how we have been able to build this, wemitigate that risk because the back end
(47:50):
relationship building of actually building thejob for what we bid is so potent.
And a lot of our clients, I told you, we'vegone deep.
Right?
Like, deep in our client relationships ratherthan wide.
That is one thing that we are actually hearingback from 2 of our top very large clients is
(48:10):
that compared to other GCs, we're actuallysaving them about 15%.
Oh, yeah.
So Oh, yeah.
I I this blows my mind for many reasons.
Oh, my my brain is is crazy now.
So spot migration, same thing.
We're flat rate.
Right?
We don't nickel and dime our clients.
Like, we don't go and say, hey.
Oh, you're gonna serve a migration.
We don't we that's a project.
So we do that.
No.
(48:30):
It's like, no.
For us, it's like, no.
We're we we are your partner, which you hadmentioned about, like, relationships.
We don't wanna go wide.
We wanna go deep.
Right?
So it's like, that's it.
How do you go deep?
You actually become a partner with somebody.
You actually do things that if you were in arelationship, a meaningful relationship with,
you would do.
You would operate that way.
(48:50):
So that one, I love the the synergy, which isthe worst business word, but of our businesses.
They're very similar in that regard, which I solove so so much.
Also, I I dream big.
So when I think of what you're doing, that'swhat I see the construction industry be coming.
Like, why wouldn't why are you doing this?
(49:11):
Oh, well, I know I'm gonna, you know, haveanother $100 in change orders, so I'll just low
bid it.
Then I'm gonna have a horrible relationshipwith whomever, you know, the owner is or
developer is.
And like, burn every bridge I could possiblydo.
I'm gonna then, like, completely destroy my mysubs or trade partners because I'm just gonna
try to find the money from all kinds of places.
(49:32):
And it creates this, like, massive headache.
Right?
Like and and for me, I just I look at this andI'm like, that's that's the future.
You're you are building the future.
You're changing lives, certainly, but you arebuilding what I foresee is, like, that's how it
should work.
Because that's how we work, which is not howthe IT in cyberspace works.
But, like, that's how it should work becausethat's what true partnerships are.
(49:55):
Oh, this is this is, like, outcome orientedversus feature oriented.
Yep.
The like, that's what we're talking about.
Right?
What you're doing is you're providing anoutcome versus a whole bunch of features.
Features and benefits.
Yeah.
Go back to sales.
Yep.
Yeah.
No.
And and and it's funny.
So you said a couple things that I wanna callout.
Number 1, you used the word should.
So should do something.
(50:17):
We all should be doing a lot of things
Sure.
But we're not.
No.
Right?
So, like, I'm like, yeah.
We should be doing this way.
And you know what?
Clients should be looking past low bid.
Mhmm.
They should be.
They should actually create a system where theyare comparing bids apples to apples, rather
(50:37):
than apples to bananas to pineapples, right,and being like, who's got what?
They should do all that, but they don't.
Mhmm.
And so I can't control what any of them shouldbe doing.
What I can't control is what we do and how weperform.
And so for us, do we put a little bit dialoguebehind when we bid?
Do we build a stronger relationship so that wecan have discussions about this stuff or call
(51:03):
out certain things that we know others willmiss and add as a change order.
Right?
Where we're being forward facing being like,hey.
This is the grid or this is the door.
Like, here's the here's the thing we want youto keep in mind.
We're bidding it per plan, but we want you tokeep in mind, like, this is important to ask
(51:24):
others about.
The thing is is that this is like a personal, Idon't know, a personal goal of mine is to move
past a little bit.
I'm over it.
I'm so over it.
Like, seriously, are you gonna go, like, getbrain surgery and be like, which one's the
cheapest?
I just want the cheapest guy that's gonna doit.
(51:46):
Right?
Like, just like you know, I mean, you you canuse, like, as every other stitch to stitch me
back up.
That's good.
Like, let's do that.
Right?
No.
I want the best guy.
And if that's the, like, the most experience,if that's, like, the most expensive, whatever,
I want the best.
I don't care that they're the cheapest.
And that's what that is something that drivesme insane about this is the low bid win.
(52:13):
And I like, it is mind boggling to me.
We you would not do that in any other industry,yet people are investing 100 of 1,000 and
1,000,000 of dollars on low bid.
Yeah.
There
you go.
You you win your low bid.
Like
I, I think I equate it to, oh, that's that'sthe Groupon version.
(52:33):
Right?
Oh, you wanted to get a LASIK?
Use Groupon.
That's crazy.
I wanna get brain surgery.
Oh, use the Groupon version of it becauseyou'll save some money.
And it's like, no.
You won't because you'll be going to getsomebody else to finish the job because it's
the Groupon version of it.
Not this isn't shitting on Groupon, but it'sjust what it is.
So, yes.
(52:53):
I I agree.
The should.
The should.
They should.
They should.
They should.
But the point is is as a trailblazer, as aleader, right, you do the thing that they
should be doing because you know it's the rightthing to do.
The right thing.
Right?
The right thing to do.
And that's that's what makes you different.
And that what is what helps scale.
That's what helps, you know, increase revenuein growing a team and doing all those things.
(53:15):
And when people think about you in theindustry, they know you're different.
They know you operate more transparent.
They know all of those things, which justcreates this gravity effect of, like, people
just wanna be around people that are doing theright stuff.
Uh-huh.
I mean, that's the goal.
Right?
Like, that's the goal is, like, we wanna beplaying this game infinitely.
(53:35):
And so it's like, how do we, conduct ourbusiness in a way that aligns with our core
values and, like, our goals too.
Of course, we all wanna make money.
Are you kidding me?
I don't work for free.
Like, we wanna go do that.
Like, do all that.
But when you hold your, like, values in the waythat you operate at such a high level, like,
this this is the standard.
(53:56):
I'm sorry.
We do not bend to our standard.
You find other people in the industry that arejust like it.
And some you move past.
We've had to move past because even clients,like, we're like, we don't operate in that
capacity.
Right?
And that includes, like, urgency on responsesand and all of that.
Like, that we are schedule is much tied to toyour to everybody else's, all the key
(54:19):
stakeholders' responses.
We need those quickly so that we can do ourjob.
And if they aren't responding quickly, well,then that falls on us.
Right?
So then we wanna make sure that, you know,everyone we're working with, it's kind of like
that that cream rises to the top.
It just you keep taking care of what you cancontrol again and again, and you guys we find
(54:42):
those people that are like minded, and wecontinue to do business with them.
Not to mention it helps process.
Change orders are giant pain in the ass foreverybody.
Like, they're Everybody.
It is it sucks for everybody.
Like, even the person that's making the moneyoff the change order, it sucks.
It's not good.
It's more work.
You have to employ somebody to make sure theymanage it.
Who's got to sign off on this thing?
(55:03):
Who how many levels of of sign off happens?
Do I gotta go to the owners?
Is it just the developer?
Do I gotta go to the sub?
It's, like, all these different things, andit's just like, yeah.
Remove that.
Get that out of the way.
What like, you're actually becoming moreproductive.
Like, you you will you will make jobs quicker,right, which is effectively what everybody
wants.
I want the building built faster.
Like, why why do I wanna wait on this?
Right?
So, it there's so many aspects when you justchange your your billing model effectively or
(55:28):
your your model, your business model.
It affects so many other things.
You can hire better people because you youhate.
Like, we're we're very conscious of what thisis, and I'm not trying to change order you to
death.
So, I'd love it.
I, man, I I don't know.
You you got me all riled up here, Shelley.
Yep.
I tend to do that.
Tend to do that.
Justin, we're coming up on an hour hour.
(55:52):
I think we could talk to Shelley for a longtime.
Oh, Oh, yeah.
But I think I think it's time.
I think it's time to do our last question.
For sure.
So, Shelley, if you could go back 20 years,which we have learned that you were starting
pharma at that point, what would you tellyourself to give yourself advice, to to help
your 20 year younger self?
(56:13):
I have 2 things for you.
Okay?
I have 2 things for you.
Number 1 is change careers often.
I held a lot of shame, in all honesty.
I held a lot of shame when I changed careersbecause I was like, this is this was not how I
was supposed to raise.
Like, I'm supposed to have tenure and, like,all this stuff, and I'm I'm I'm horrible.
(56:38):
Like, I can't believe I'm moving careers andchanging, and I still did it, but, like, I held
a lot of shame for it.
And I think when we reframe it as, like, it'stime to go get new experience.
Like, Like, I've tapped myself out here.
I'm so grateful for all of the experience thatthat I have received and the training and the
the the life that it's provided me, but nowit's time for me to go change.
(57:03):
And I think that's why it's, like, it's it's soglorious, right, thinking as a business owner
now, like, I'm like, man, I'd loved it becauseit's easy.
This is why we think this way.
I'd love to get someone that just stays with usfor 20 years and, like, they just do their job
and whatever.
But, honestly, because it's easy for us becausethey're already trained.
But what's best for us is to actually have newor challenge them to grow or put them in a new
(57:28):
position.
Oh, yeah.
Like, that's actually the hard thing, andthat's the better thing to do.
And so I think just if I were to go back andtell myself 20 years ago, I'd be like, don't
hold the shame.
You're just getting more experience.
All that experience, all those crazy careersthat make no sense for construction are 100%
part of the reason why we're so successfulright now.
(57:49):
If I didn't have all those crazy careers andbeing able to apply this now, business is
business.
There's little nuances between them, butbusiness is business.
And being able to apply all of that right now,I think, provides us the perspective to be able
to grow and reach, the levels that we want withthis company.
That would be my number one to my 20 yearyounger self.
(58:11):
I'd be like, start Botox earlier.
No.
I'm just kidding.
You got you got to.
But Grow your hair out longer.
No.
No long hair for men.
No long hair.
No.
Okay.
So the second thing that I would say to my 20year old self, and this is something that we
didn't even get to talk to yet, is to alwaystake care of yourself first.
(58:35):
So I know probably a lot of the people that arelistening into the show right now, building
scale, you're scaling businesses regardless ofyour industry, you're putting all of you into
the business and there's probably not much leftof you.
And I'm gonna tell you right now, I sharedearlier how I grew I was in my early twenties
(58:56):
when I was in the financial industry.
In just shy of 3 years, I grew a book ofbusiness from 0 to $17,000,000 under management
in my twenties.
Okay?
I told you I did 400 dials a day.
I was first one in, last one out.
And I just got to the like, I was, like, atthat point of, like, either I stay in it for
life or I better get out now.
(59:18):
Right?
And I was, like, I cannot do this anymore.
I I'm I was I was tapped out, and so I wentover to the pharmaceutical industry.
Soon going over to the pharmaceutical industry,so I just worked my tail off for almost 3
years.
I actually woke up one morning, and I couldn'tsee out of my left eye.
And what had happened is I worked my body sohard for so long, not taking care of myself,
(59:44):
nutrition, diet, just relaxing, all of thestuff.
Is that a virus that most of us have that are,I would say, in our forties, so maybe that's
just me.
But a virus that most of us have, chicken pox,that virus comes out as an adult, if you're
overstressed, as shingles.
(01:00:06):
K?
Lives in your nerves.
What happened is that came out on my opticnerve, and it left me blind.
I'm blind in my left eye.
And so, mhmm, so it was really challenging, butit was also the gift I never knew I needed
(01:00:26):
because I was pushing myself so hard.
You you guys can hear, I think, through theshow, just through the times.
I'm a go getter.
I've nationally ranked horse competitor.
Like, this is like, I just am this way.
But this thorn that had was now left in my sidewhen I was 24 years old, actually, oh my gosh.
(01:00:46):
I just didn't realize it.
October 4th was my 20 years being blind in myleft eye.
Crazy.
Wow.
Is that if if I didn't have this as a constantreminder, I would keep pushing myself where I
might not be here because my health was, like,I was just going going going going going.
And so now I have this little reminder thattells me, Shelly, calm it down.
(01:01:10):
Go chill out.
Go to the gym.
Take care of yourself.
Like, nutrition and and exercise are two 2things that are incredibly important to me, but
I always take care of me first.
And then when I feel great, guess what?
I'm a better wife.
I'm a better mother.
I am a better leader.
I am better for everybody else when I take careof me first.
(01:01:31):
And so I can't say that enough to all my fellowbusiness colleagues out there that are doing
the things, still do the things.
I'm not saying stop.
I'm just saying you gotta take care of yourselffirst.
So those are the 2 things because it's been 20
Wow.
That's powerful.
Yeah.
I love that answer.
Thank you for sharing.
You're welcome.
If somebody wanted to get a hold of you,Shelley, what would be the best way for them to
(01:01:54):
do that?
So the best way, let's connect on socials.
I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn.
LinkedIn, my nemesis.
Sometimes it's getting easier.
I like it, guys.
I like it now.
But LinkedIn, Instagram, and, I am on YouTube,slowly growing over there, learning a lot over
there.
Right?
Alright.
Sparking curiosity over there.
We will, make sure we drop those links in theshow notes.
(01:02:17):
Is there any other parting words you'd like tosay before we say our goodbyes?
No.
Just thank you so much.
This has been a a really fun conversation andand so great getting to to know both of you.
Awesome.
Well, you've been awesome.
Listeners, I hope you had as good and excitingof a time as we had, and until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(01:02:37):
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the 3 pillars of scaling a businessare people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(01:02:57):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time,
keep building scale.
Scale.
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