March 18, 2025 • 45 mins
Nicole Rodriguez shares her marketing journey, emphasizing understanding client needs and the evolution of content creation. She discusses advanced analytics, strategic thinking, and the importance of aligning sales with marketing. The episode covers building client relationships, identifying target markets, and crafting effective marketing plans. Nicole also explores SEO, PPC strategies, and the influence of company culture on marketing. She touches on applying B2C strategies in B2B contexts, promotes the AEC Growth Summit, and offers advice to her younger self.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Business developers, once they know about theirclients and what they're looking for, can bring
that intel to us for better graphics, forbetter messaging and communications and RFPs to
nail it, to have the landmine statements andthe RFPs that are speaking to the people in the
room.
Do Do you wanna know why?
Because we know who was in the room.
Thank you, BD director.
You know?
Because they give us that awesome intel.
(00:22):
And so those three people can truly be threeamigos for your company.
You know?
And they're very overwhelmed and distracted,frazzled, and likely not satisfied when they're
all the same person.
Like sales and marketing, sales and businessdevelopment, marketing business, all of that.
It's it's a huge red flag when I start workingwith a company, and I try to tell them that and
(00:42):
advocate for it.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth,
wealth, and freedom from your AEC company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagle, and we're your podcasthosts.
(01:05):
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
building scale.
Hey listeners, it's will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
(01:28):
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(01:50):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of buildingscale, specifically the building connection
series where I get to interview people that Iknow, friends, as well as new connections that
I make throughout my journey through life.
We get to talk about business as normalbuilding scale, but we also talk a lot about
life and legacy and how we're pushing towardshappiness and and all kinds of new and fun
(02:13):
ideas that way.
Just give you a little bit different of aflavor of the building scale show.
So, yeah, my guest today, is becoming quite thecloser friend, I would say.
At least that's certainly how
I would introduce her, and
her name is Nicole Rodriguez.
She is a marketing and branding powerhouse,award winning three times.
(02:34):
She's all about driving results when it comesto branded marketing, specifically in the AEC
space in public sectors.
She's been doing this for a while.
So she's gonna share some of those ideas and,like, things to do if you're just starting out
or things to do as you're trying to buildtowards that CMO seat, all that fun stuff.
Also, she's part of the board of influence,which is this thing that we started with her,
(02:57):
Cassie Wells, and Scott Franchini, who've awfulalso been on the show.
And, yeah, it's it's, really, really cool.
We're having an event here in Phoenix later inthe spring here in May, so I look forward to
that as well.
But, that that's kind of it.
I I I'm just gonna kinda let this seep into youas it did for me.
It was super enjoyable to talk with her, and,I'm really excited to share the show.
(03:20):
Alright.
Here it is.
Nicole.
What?
Always so good to see you.
We see each other all the time now because, theevent that we're playing together, which is
really, really cool, and I love.
And I'd love to talk a little bit about that,for listeners and stuff.
But, the first thing I I'm very alwaysintrigued is how how did you get into,
(03:43):
marketing?
And then specifically, how did you decide, hey,you know what?
I really like construction, and I'm I'm reallyinterested in that life.
And let's let's talk about that a little bit.
Man, Justin, I'm gonna dial you back to thedays of Myspace.
Does that make sense?
Wow.
Myspace.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna take you back over twenty yearsago when I had an enthusiasm born for graphic
(04:05):
design and web development by understanding thecheat codes in Myspace and building my own
Myspace with HTML.
So I went out of my way to learn HTML and buildmy first websites through that, and that's
actually how I started over twenty years ago.
Wow.
That's wild.
When I worked at a law firm for a long time, Ibuilt their website, which was, interesting
(04:27):
because they I was, like, just the youngestperson that understood technology enough.
Like, I I had no training whatsoever, so it'svery much like learning HTML and, like, using
Dreamweaver to, like Yeah.
Make a website, which now, WordPress and allthe other ones have made this significantly,
easier than literally just hashing out HTMLcode all day.
(04:48):
But very interesting.
That that's very similar, to the starts of ourstories.
Mine went in a different direction now.
Yeah.
Way different.
Down with my passion.
Yeah.
We're still making content.
Right?
We're still creatives.
We're still doing whatever we want, using theInternet, the, you know, the dawn of that time.
You know what I mean?
It was going from that AOL dial up sound atschool that I heard to me on, you know, the old
(05:13):
white laptop, the old white Mac, you know,doing my thing.
Whatever I could to stay online and, I don'tknow, to sell that work.
I really wanted to be in this space and sellthat work.
That's it's very interesting to think of howthat what like, you know, we say twenty years
ago, right, after my my space
22.
Yeah.
(05:34):
It is wild to think, but yet the advancementsthat have occurred in that time frame, and
we're talking about AI now and, like, I canliterally have a blog and then give it to
Google and then Google pitch me back a twentyminute podcast episode about it.
It's like wild.
Like, what occurs now in content creation?
What with content creation, when in in whenyou're looking at a brand that you're working
with, what what are the what are the secrets?
(05:56):
What are the things that, like, people shouldreally try to dive into and then avoid
completely, across the board?
I would say dive into completely.
One of my favorite ones that's difficult to dobecause no one really likes to do it is compare
yourself to others, Justin.
Nobody they teach us right now with all thewellness content out there not to compare
(06:19):
yourself to others personally orprofessionally, but marketers unfortunately
have to do that every single day.
We have to compare our clients even to eachother and the things that we're doing year over
year, quarter over quarter.
We benchmark ourselves, and it requires a lotof comparisons.
So I would say that if you're only lookinginward and you're not looking at what everybody
else is doing, especially streamlining,especially AI, things like that, then you're
(06:41):
falling behind for sure.
So dive into that.
Dive into comparison a little bit and just usethe analytics, you know, not your emotions, of
course.
And then,
Is that, like see some, like, you know,obviously, we have a ton of content.
You're you're on the podcast.
You're gonna get grip of content here too justfrom this, conversation, which is awesome fun.
Are you saying, like, hey.
(07:01):
Like, just see what other people are doing andhow they're ripping sixty second videos or
thirty second videos and, like, try to, youknow, just, you know, taste the taste the, be
very and what is it?
I was gonna say taste the water, but that's notI don't think that's a thing.
Just give a lot of, like, taste testing,essentially of saying like, hey.
What about this headline?
Or what about this thing?
(07:22):
Or what about, you know, what does this looklike?
And then, obviously, seeing other people doingit and other people growing as a brand or what
it is, and then going down that path and sayinglike, oh, there's things here that I'm not
doing that I need to at least startinvestigating.
Absolutely.
I mean, one of the big ones would be for peopleto see what others are doing on social media.
You don't have to be an active social mediaparticipant, post or commenter at all, but to
(07:46):
have your eyes and ears on it every single dayis super important.
You know what I mean?
To see what other people are doing.
The comparison can start there honestly withwhat they're talking about, who they're
aligning with, how frequently they do it.
And then you can actually use those metricswhen you're like, you know what?
I can kind of wrap my mind around maybe a topfive group of individuals that are pretty
visible in my space.
I might even consider them a competitor.
(08:07):
You know?
I would say the secrets out there would begoing into Semrush and using a paid, you know,
premium analytics tool.
We'll show you exactly what those folks arepaying for, how and where they're getting
traffic from, and, maybe how they're achievingwhat you perceive to be viability in the space,
you know, so that you can get past it, so thatyou can grow past it and just do better all
(08:27):
around.
But it's gonna take using your intuition andlooking for that information to find out the
people that you even wanna be watching and thenusing tools to teach yourself how to do better.
What's the first thing you find when you'reworking with a brand?
Like, what's the first thing you see thatthey're not doing, but it would be easy for
(08:47):
them to do?
Not doing, but easy for them to do, I wouldsay, like I just said, is pay for analytics
because I'll tell you the difference why.
Okay?
You could look at Google Analytics and a lot ofpeople have Google Analytics Google Analytics
connected to their website.
If you log into that, it's like having asecurity camera outside.
You know, you can see who comes and goes.
(09:09):
You can see who comes to the door, whatever.
You can see maybe what kind of car they showedup in, what direction they go after that.
Right?
You can see some stuff, but you can't seeeverything.
If you had some rush and you were paying forthat tool or paying a marketing agency to look
at information for you, you would see theinside of the house.
You would see once they open that door, whatrooms they went into, what drawers they open,
(09:29):
how long they spent in each room, and trulywhat they were looking for.
And if they came up to a door that was lockedor a drawer that was broken.
Because a lot of the times that's changing theexperience that people are having on your
website, and Google Analytics doesn't showthat.
It doesn't show the visitor journey that youneed to know why maybe a funnel is
malfunctioning, or it seems like a lot oftraffic is coming to a page, but then nothing's
(09:51):
happening.
It may be a broken button on Edge.
You know?
And we just don't know because you weren'tlooking at, you know, the true client journey,
I guess.
You know what I mean?
Of of what you're paying for.
What we're all paying for matters.
Right?
You know, our budgets are important to us,especially in the public sector where I work,
you know, governments, school districts, andcities, counties, state agencies, the federal
(10:13):
government, they're all trying to save money.
And so they really need to see the metric on ispaying for this important.
Yes.
It is.
No matter what.
If you're a public or private sectorcontractor, it's important to pay.
Do you think that the average, owner or whatwhoever you're working with internally, whoever
that executive is, is capable of digesting thatknowledge.
(10:37):
Because, you know, maybe they're really, youknow, they're a really great operator.
They're, really great visionary, or sales orwhatever they're really good at.
But when it comes to, like, marketinganalytics, that's a whole other expertise.
People, like, especially when you get thebigger organizations, it's like there's just a
person that does that.
(10:58):
Like, that's that's their sole job.
Yes.
There's a CMO leader.
Yes.
A creative leader that has been entrusted toalso, you know, I guess, tight rope the walk of
executive leadership as well.
And that's not always something that a creativewants to do.
And I've struggled with that in my journey asfar as do I want to stop or do less of creative
(11:19):
work so that I can serve my clients in anexecutive capacity, train more, review reports,
complete reports, sit in meetings, and thingsthat are just not creative work that I've spent
those last two decades doing.
And so I think that that's something thatpeople ask themselves and decide not to do.
And maybe that's why there's not that, youknow, that rule so often in contractors.
(11:40):
Well, a lot of things that we do at Spot is alot of strategy teaching.
So we're very educational.
Right?
Like, we we obviously, we're gonna do the workfor you, like, I'm just the IT stuff or cyber
stuff.
But it's a lot of, like, why are we doing it?
Right?
It's just, like, you have to understand alittle bit of the why I feel like.
And, I just had a call with a partner that wasasking about, like, how do I track things?
(12:02):
How how should I track some some components?
And I was helping them kinda, like, walkthrough, like, this is what I would do.
Here are tools that I'd use.
If it's, you know, like, you said, SME rush or,like, a CallRail or something like that or or a
website tracking, video tracking, clicktracking, stuff like that.
But I feel like I was talking to them, and Iand they were like, oh my god.
How like, you are thinking about this sofurther advanced or, you know, like, very, very
(12:28):
much strategic.
I feel like there's a lot of businesses thatdon't have somebody like that in place
specifically in the marketing side because theyjust think, like, I just need a marketer to
send some emails or, like, make some prettystuff.
Right?
And it's just like, well, no.
No.
No.
There's a whole other piece that it's not just,like, creating content or creating, if it's an
(12:48):
ad or for whatever it is in a magazine, it'smore of the, oh, like, we're doing this and
we're pairing it with these six things, andthen that is what what you actually get into
this is being strategic.
How do you how how can how can a business startthinking that way?
Because I feel like they're not getting enoughstrategic learning, essentially.
(13:11):
Yeah.
I would say, you know, as hard as it is, Iwould shake yourself out of survival mode.
Because if you're only looking into the quarterahead of you and you think even that's far and
you're not looking that three to five years,you're lacking hope.
You're lacking the spark.
You know?
You're lacking the fire.
And I also did when I was younger in thecorporate world.
(13:32):
I kinda felt like I've I need to do today'stask.
And then a couple, you know, a couple monthsmaybe in advance is what I was looking at
events and feeling very overwhelmed with mycommitments.
And I was lacking hope in myself and for mycompany envision because I wasn't brought on
board in a transparent way into the c suiteright away to be like, you're a part of this.
You're a part of the growth.
(13:53):
Wake up every morning inspired because what youdo can impact your income and our future and
blah blah blah.
I had to tell myself that.
And every once in a while, I got it from placeslike a really cool podcast like this or SMPS.
I got little doses of inspiration to remindmyself that I am a pillar.
I'm responsible here.
You know, we could really be in themultimillions more year over year than they
(14:14):
ever imagined possible if I can inspire them todo something a little bit more creative, a
little bit more different, and not be in thegrind, not think about the quarter that I'm
living in, you know, and be inspired by what'sto come year or two years away.
And so if a principal can do that now, thenthey can impression that upon their team.
You know, maybe they could have that meetingwith their marketer and send them home fired
(14:36):
up, you know, and it can start from there, andthey can be the steward of that fire that helps
them look farther.
When you start helping a business, what'swhat's the biggest thing you have to help them
get over?
Obviously, like, hey.
Start looking at analytics.
We talked about that.
Cool.
But, like, what's the it's almost more like anemotional thing.
It's not necessarily like, oh, you need tostart pushing out an email every week or
something.
It's more of, like, I need you to startthinking of it this way.
(14:59):
Like, I need you to start getting to a placewhere you're looking at this in a more
strategic way.
What do you find that you're, like, always, youknow, the beginning of your relationship you're
always trying to
I would say, one, my direct and personalrelationship with the marketing person on the
client side.
Because a lot of times, they can be misinformedthat they're they're I'm there to be replay you
(15:21):
know, they're being audited essentially intheir role for what they've been doing wrong
or, you know, I've been lacking in creativitybefore a consultant, you know, came on board or
whatever.
And so I take time to nurture thoserelationships to let them know that nothing was
really wrong.
If you didn't know what you didn't know, that'sgreat.
But right now is a perfect time for you toshine in your role because they're investing in
marketing, you know, so we're gonna worktogether.
(15:41):
And I always try and smooth that over rightaway so that they know that my life's ambition
was to have my own company.
And no companies offer ever in the world, Ithink, will take me away from what I'm doing.
And so I have zero interest in replacing themor helping them, you know, not work with me,
you know, to achieve their goals.
So once I have that, once I feel like I have agreat relationship with the marketing role with
(16:02):
my clients, then we can work together to havebigger, better creative ideas.
And then actually, it's usually just them beingscared about committing the time because long
meetings end up in tons of awesome creativeideas.
And what happens when I recap them for you,Justin?
It can feel a little overwhelming when you'rescrolling through my recap emails.
Right?
I mean, you're not the only one that said thisis that email is too long.
(16:25):
I I will read it or, you know, whatever thecase is, it's fine.
I I give all the information upfront and thatthat's so that everybody, you know, is
involved.
But I would say the overwhelm of knowing thatyou are going to have to work harder to meet
your goals is is another big mountain decline.
Got it.
First, I think communication's huge.
That's hugely important.
Right?
So if it's that's internally to, a member ofthe marketing team that it may be frightened
(16:49):
for their job, which that we see that all thetime.
If there's an in a IT person in a company andwe're coming in, in those scenarios, it's
almost always in a co managed way where it'slike, oh, no.
No.
We're doing this thing, and you are taking allof this thing.
And, like, we're it's very much, like, hide I'mnot doing what you're doing.
We're doing different things because there's somuch to be done, and and marketing certainly
(17:11):
goes in that same category of, like, oh my god.
Like, you could be you could be the person thatjust does ads compared to, like Totally.
All of the
Specialist roles.
Yeah.
Whole departments.
And all, like, all of those things.
So where do you see the blend of, sales andmarketing from your point of view?
Sales and marketing come together every singleday.
(17:31):
Obviously, I was unaware that I would have tobecome a sales professional and sell marketing
services when I started a creative agency.
No one really put that unfortunately that'sokay.
Other for me, Justin, that I would have to getinto sales, that I would have to network, that
I have to promote myself and do uncomfortablethings.
Very uncomfortable things for an introvertcreative who really imagined myself providing
(17:54):
creative services for the rest of my lifewithout thinking beyond how I was going to have
to sell those.
You know what I mean?
And become an agency owner.
So that being said, now that I've learned aboutthat, and the difference between sales and
marketing, I see myself so much as the supportrole now.
When before I thought I was responsible foreverything that they had to do, I was
responsible.
I was carrying this weight.
(18:15):
But now I feel that weight completely released.
I work so much better with sales roles nowbecause I understand how we work together and
that they need marketing and appreciate it.
And then we don't even exist without themselling the project.
So we work to in every way.
I feel like I remember having this conversationbecause, like, you'll have companies that have
(18:35):
a CMO and, the chief sales officer or chiefchief revenue officer, you know, again,
depending on the title of which they have.
And I've always said, I'm like, yeah.
But, like, they need to be so intertwined.
Like, it's not to say you can't have two peoplelooking at the the different departments
individually because I can totally I canunderstand that.
But, like, they have to be so interwoven thatit's like I, you know, I see it's like, who is
(18:59):
responsible for the overarching thing thatthey're both doing because they both have to be
playing from the same sheet of music.
Right?
Because otherwise, they might go out and pitchan idea to somebody, and that person then
naturally comes back to their office, and thenthey go and look the website.
And the website doesn't say anything about thatidea, and it becomes like, well, this they feel
(19:20):
like they're being lied to in some way.
Not not necessarily like, oh my god.
This is just a this leads to salesmen, but it'smore of like, that's not what they do.
That that seems like inaccurate, what he saidto me.
So seeing that for such a long time, I'm like,oh my god.
Like, they're you have they have to betogether.
They have to be on the same page.
Otherwise, it all falls apart.
But it could also fall apart, Justin, when theyare the same person, which reaches did an
(19:42):
awesome presentation on, with Cassie aboutsales, marketing, and business development, and
how contractors really thrive when those threefolks are completely different individuals.
So, the reason why is because if somebodythinks that they truly only have one target
market let's say, you know, a contractor thinksthey work with schools, Wake up every single
day just thinking about the people that aregoing to work at schools and completely
(20:04):
forgetting their manufacturer relationships andtheir retention strategies to keep their
employees.
Their other two huge target audiences.
So all marketing, you know, manufacturers, thelogistics of how you get your product or
service to your clients.
That's an entirely other target audience ofrelationships that need to be built.
(20:27):
And I think that where your the sourcemanufacturing products, whatever it is that you
do, where that comes from, your sales managershould nurture those relationships because
they're part of building the sales pipeline.
The business developers should only care aboutthe client's needs.
Truly what the client wants to have.
Every single day, it doesn't happen.
They should only care about their personal andprofessional interests only.
(20:48):
And marketing should care about the companygoals, reaching the company goals that have
been outlined in the marketing plan and all thedifferent creative ways that we can do that.
Should we be worried, marketers, every singlemorning about, you know, sales and where they
would come from or different strategies of howto sell the product, really?
No.
Because our sales managers should be integratedwith us and, you know, giving us creative ideas
(21:10):
about how to sell products and all of the bestways to reach target audiences.
Right?
We work together on that.
Business developers, once they know about theirclients and what they're looking for, can bring
that intel to us for better graphics, forbetter messaging, and communications, and RFPs
to nail it, to have the landmine statements andthe RFPs that are speaking to the people in the
(21:30):
room.
Do you wanna know why?
Because we know who was in the room.
Thank you, BD director.
You know?
Because they give us that awesome intel.
And so those three people can truly be threeamigos for your company.
You know?
And they're very overwhelmed and distracted,frazzled, and likely not satisfied when they're
all the same person.
Like sales and marketing, sales and businessdevelopment, marketing is all of that.
(21:54):
It's it's a huge red flag when I start workingwith a company, and I try to tell them that and
advocate for it.
I they're definitively different skills.
There's they're different fully differentdepartments.
I would totally put that in in place.
I for me, I just think when especially when ifit's not the CEO, whoever it is, like, whatever
executive, like, if somebody doesn't have apulse on the overarching umbrella of, like,
(22:18):
what is happening, I think this is where peopleget frustrated.
Like, it's just it's very frustrating.
It's like, oh, like, a marketer could be doingsomething, and it's like, wait.
Yeah.
But we're not we're, like, we're not going downthat path anymore or something that's just
like, wait.
What?
Like, why are like, what?
Well, sales found it easier to sell to this x,right, this demo.
It's like, well, that'd be great, but, like, Ididn't I was unaware of this because we were
(22:39):
kinda on the
same page.
The communication is not coming to one place.
We're not on one vision, and that's where I seethings go right.
And I I agree with you.
Like, trying to have one person do do all thefunctionality of that is that's impossible.
Like, that's,
like, doing
doing one of those departments all by yourselfis already, Herculean.
So to try to add on others, it's just insane.
(23:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
So, let's talk a little bit about your when youget that demo.
Right?
So knowing the who you want, I feel like a lotof businesses, they come and they say, like,
well, especially when you're they're if they'restarting and they're, you know, they're
growing, they're like, well, I I could dobusiness with everybody.
I could I could help everyone.
Right?
(23:22):
And then that can become a trap.
It's not to say that you can't do things thatway.
But I certainly what we've seen at Spot is,like, we wanna be very specific.
We wanna be industry focused.
That's for us.
Location focused doesn't matter as much for usin IT, but, like, when we look at, like, hey.
We wanna be the AEC leader when it comes to ITand cybersecurity.
Like, we we keep pushing towards that, and,like, we're attacking that every day.
(23:45):
What do you see when you take people that arelike, hey.
Like, what's your demo?
Is it just so broad that, like, this is verydifficult to speak to directly to your point
of, like, hey.
I wanna have those key, you know, sentences or,you know, those those knockout, you know,
phrases that's like, wow.
It sounds like you're talking directly to me.
I think that the first step to that is, like,well, who is that demo pretty specifically, if
(24:08):
it's industry or for something else?
Because, like, otherwise, it's too hard becausetalking to all humans is, like, that's an
impossibility.
It's totally hard.
Right?
So most of the time, people are dictated bytheir budget.
Right?
They may have insane dreams about all thepeople in the world that they love picking up
their services too.
Right?
But we always have to be creative within thebudget, you know, within the time and money
that people have to achieve their goals.
(24:29):
So most of the time, the timeliness of that isthe issue.
Do you want it done tomorrow?
Or do you want it done five years from now?
Is the whole point of outlining a marketingplan.
And without the document, there's no deadline.
You know what I mean?
People could dream about it forever.
So we truly encourage that to put some time andeffort to it.
You're going to need to pay for the structureof that to facilitate your mind getting all
(24:50):
that information out of your brain and ontopaper.
That is the biggest hang up.
You know?
It's just really sitting down and putting itinto a real plan and stopping talking to
yourself about your goals and including theteam with something legitimate and, putting
things on the calendar and holding yourselfaccountable when they don't happen, changing
course quarterly or annually when you need toto meet your goals and just, sticking to it
(25:15):
instead of thinking about it.
For companies that have gone more like a salerep, you know, an SDR, you know, a a caller,
you know, that kind of vibe, And they haven'tput a ton of emphasis on marketing just
historically, but they're coming to a pointwhere they're realizing, like, man, like, this
isn't working or this isn't this isn't goingthe way I want it to do.
What would be advice for them as they're makinga transition or at least somewhat of a
(25:39):
transition of that budget to some otherfunctionality that's is lead generation is the
initiative?
Well, do they have a brand?
No.
Have they ever had a brand?
Had they ever had a target target audiencespecific message ever before?
Or has it always just talked about theirservices?
You know, I would look at that and then askmyself, what are they able to pull off with
(26:02):
what they have done so far?
You gain trust with Google over time based onif you had social media or not, if your domain
was active and you had organic versus directversus paid traffic.
All of those things, you know, gain trust withGoogle.
If you've only been around one to two years andanother company has been around twenty years,
even with the most horrific, hard to read,broken, and virus website, they will outperform
(26:26):
you.
Unfortunately, because they have been in thegame longer with keywords that have been
specific and visited multiple times.
Unfortunately, even with a horrific back outrate.
So you will have to pay a little bit more toincrease, you know, your visibility past those
folks, honestly.
But you can still do it in a shorter amount oftime if you pay attention every single month to
(26:47):
what you're doing.
So I remember I told you to log into thedashboards and look every single time.
If you don't wanna do that, your marketer can.
You know, for sure.
But honestly, I think that you're doing apretty good job making your name known.
Spot migration and building scale is the firstand only I would think of.
So you'd have to tell me in this episode.
You don't have to take your time and tell mewhat the number one thing you did was to carve
(27:11):
out that name for you.
One, thank you.
Appreciate that a ton.
I
feel like it's
just a lot of it's a lot of continuing to just,like, push out truth.
I think that that's that's the I think that'sthe thing I really realized.
I felt like, hey.
Like, I'm just gonna just be me, and, like,we're gonna we're just gonna go from there.
Like, in if that works out, awesome.
(27:33):
If that doesn't work out, at least I wasn'ttrying to be something else, and then it didn't
work.
So a lot of of just
trying to put That's the mic drop, Justin.
That's good.
No one else you can be.
That for sure.
I completely agree.
Also, question, a lot of people ask me thisbecause they'll, we've done PPC, Google PPC for
(27:56):
a long time to gain clients.
It was, up until two years ago was that was,like, man, like, that's how we get a majority
of our clientele.
And now that that has shifted to other otherchannels.
But when people think of SEO and PPC, like,what are you know?
And my guess is you're gonna say both, or whatdoes your budget have?
(28:16):
But, like, what where should they start, orwhat should they do, or are those good avenues
to even pursue if you're kinda starting off onthis, you know, journey of marketing?
Journey.
Yes.
Journey.
Zero to a hundred, and it takes a lot of thingsthat I've seen certainly.
But, like, where where do you where do youkinda put those two PPC and, SEO?
(28:38):
Big dream journey.
Everybody has it.
Of course.
Everybody has it.
Okay.
So I would ask them to describe what wouldhappen should they receive thousands of calls
and emails.
Because I would love to think that, you know,my campaigns are well thought out.
I've been in the game two decades.
I am going to bring astronomical amounts oftraffic and interest to your brand if we work
(29:01):
together.
What are you gonna do when that happens?
And they're gonna say, oh, I'll I'll I'll I'llI'll and they'll realize that they didn't have
the team or infrastructure truly in place toserve and increase in marketing and interest
and response to quotes and answered phone callsand, you know, engagement with the chatbot and
all the things that their dreams have been havebeen, you know, getting us to this point on.
(29:22):
So I would say, do you need a receptionist?
You know, like, there are other things that weneed to talk about realistically, logistically?
Because, you know, right now you aren't theperson to make sales phone calls.
And remember what I just said, it's becausehe's not the sales manager.
He's the he's the principal or, you know, thepre construction director or you know what I
mean?
Somebody that's that's on their way out in fiveyears and is looking for a new like, they're
(29:43):
not the person to answer sales phone calls, youknow, or return them or craft it, you know, a
thoughtful email that says, thank you forreaching out to us.
We got your web inquiry.
This individual is going to contact you withinthe next one to two days.
And, stay tuned because we're really excited towork with you.
Have something like that going on.
It will never be any of the people that I'mworking with at the time.
(30:03):
So most of the time, they actually need toincrease and have an HR, you know, come to
Jesus before they have a marketing, you know,activity or a campaign investment.
And if they do have those things, then we get agreen light to moving forward of how they could
actually fulfill an increase in traffic andinterest.
So being operationally prepared.
I I've seen this a ton.
(30:25):
I've seen
Don't blame me when it fails.
You know?
Even with even with us over time, we, like,crap.
You've grown too fast, too quickly.
That has problems.
And and not even just, like, the intake of thesale part of it, to your point.
Like, yeah, what what what would you do if yougot, you know, you know, even 50 people that
request in the next hour.
Yeah.
Right?
(30:45):
And I think that people also then forget, like,yeah.
You also then have to deliver on whatever thething that you do.
If you're, say, if you're a specialty trade orif you're an architect, like, you still have to
deliver on those things that you're agreeingto.
And then you say, oh, wait.
I don't nearly have enough people, which thenit's like, okay.
Well, then you have to hire people.
Alright.
Well, that's a whole process.
Do you have a hiring process?
(31:05):
Like, do you have, like there's so, like,there's so many things going
on that.
Careers marketing now we're talking about.
Right?
Now we're talking about yes.
The booth at the alumni fair instead of thosecampaigns.
Yes.
It makes a lot more sense when you can get downto the nitty gritty of how they're going to
find success through that.
Do you find that a company that is deep withtheir culture are easier to market with?
(31:27):
You know, they're they have an easier timemarketing.
I'd love to think that.
I thought earlier in my career that familyfounded, you know, businesses would pull on
people's heartstrings and that they were easierto work with because everybody knew each other,
and were closer and had, you know, known eachother for years and were very committed.
But there I would say that it's not differentthan anybody else and that there may even be
(31:48):
more drama and, you know, fallouts and stuffand family owned businesses.
Honestly, it does not matter.
The ones that I work best with, it has no itdoesn't matter how long they've been in
business, who they're owned by, the age of theowner, nothing like that.
I'm telling you, it has to do with their longterm vision and hope, you know, and what how
they feel about themselves and what's possible,and that's what drives them.
(32:10):
It totally permeates from leadership all theway down, and I feel like that's what drives
them.
And they're they could have the same successand growth in six months that other clients did
in ten years by just having a different spiritabout it.
It's pretty cool to see.
No.
That's amazing.
I I asked this.
I was just so I was just at this mentionedyeah.
I was just at this retreat for, Cultivate, andthey have crazy culture.
(32:34):
Like, it is, like, infectious.
It's wild how much cheering was done in a threeday stint for, like, one another of their
colleagues.
It was wild.
And all I thought was, like, oh, man.
Like, when you have, like, that identity of,like, you you guys know who you are.
Like, there's there's no question there.
You know, going out to market with thatfeeling, huge.
(32:55):
But then also to your point, like, going tocareer fair or that, you know, finding new new,
you know, people that are gonna be employeesalso becomes easier.
But it's just because you you have identifiedyourself and said, like, hey.
Like, this is us.
Like, we are, like, super, super happy that weget to help businesses and, like, let, like,
let's go.
Like, let like, very, very high energy, And noteverybody's gonna like that, which is totally
(33:18):
fine.
But that's the point.
Right?
Like, they will find those that really wannawork with them both internally and externally.
Yeah.
And they they care less about what other peoplethink.
I don't know if you follow the the founder ofCrumble on LinkedIn, but he loves to tell his
founder stories and back in the day, the veryfirst location.
I do you follow that and know what I'm talkingabout?
(33:40):
I do.
They constantly talk about their brand everyday.
Oh, yeah.
That I I they again, brand wise, they knockedout a bark.
Also, business model, I mean, they're a goodexample of, like, what you can do, with a thing
that's just cookies.
Like, it's just, like, we just sell cookies,but we're, like, you know, probably knocking on
the the billion dollar mark or somethinginsanity.
(34:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
But very structured.
They know exactly what they're doing.
There's never more than nine items or whateveron the menu.
Right?
But you always know that what those nine itemsare are gonna be pretty great.
You know, even if you don't exactly know whatthey're gonna be, you know, when you go in
there.
Highly structured process.
And they're always on social media every singleday, really talking about brand stories and
(34:23):
celebrating each other, which I would literallytell every single contractor I work with if I
only had one, you know, brand to show them orend them with.
It would be Crumble.
One of my favorite things that they have, is Idon't remember what restaurant it was.
It might have been like a Pizza Hut orsomething like that.
But their very first location was an oldrestaurant that they knew.
Everyone's gonna know what this was before.
(34:44):
You know what I mean?
It's they're gonna know.
And he's like, doesn't matter.
You know?
They threw the sign up and they, you know,invested in their dream and went forward.
And tons of taste testing.
You know?
I I imagine them eating all their own cookiestill they're ill.
You know what I mean?
Of course.
And I would just I I'm really inspired by them,and I think that it's good to know inspiring
brands.
(35:04):
If contractors can't tell themselves right now,I would really love to be so and so brand, they
also may not just be inspired enough.
I would say go out there and look forinspiration too.
When you use Crumble, because they're very, bto c, very consumer based in comparison to,
contractor, right, where it's like unlessyou're in residential, like, you're selling to
(35:25):
another business or more b to b.
How do how do you how do you tell people, like,hey.
You as a b to b brand can have the feel of a bto c brand.
That's a I mean, that's essentially the goalthat all b to b people want.
Right?
Because it's like, man, if I could just do whatthey're doing, right, we say this is like, that
that would be so easy or that'd be that wouldbe way fun to do.
(35:46):
And I feel like great b to b brands figuredthat out.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Well, one is reminding people that they arestill real folks at the job site human.
Office.
Feel real.
I saw Hayden Building Corp congratulate KatieHayden for being a most recognized leader in
commercial real estate.
(36:07):
And hearing that name, I did not know thatKatie Hayden was the president of Hayden
Building Corp, and that that was a female ownedbusiness.
How have I not no.
Not.
I was embarrassed and horrified.
Alright?
For all the titans that we know about theirfounding stories and such, you know, especially
the women owned ones.
Through PBJ, you're you know, over the years, Iwas shocked to not know that.
And that one social media post changed changedit how I see them, changed how I feel about
(36:31):
them.
You know what I mean?
Truly, it's crazy.
You didn't know that.
And now you could know that from one socialmedia post.
So just being active on there and beingauthentic, telling your story, it could be more
impactful than you could ever realize, youknow, for the long term.
I just heard this quote, in the last two weeks.
I was listening.
I don't remember what podcast it was.
But it was, you have to be willing to, upset oror, you know, essentially not care.
(36:58):
You don't have to be, like, you know, crazy,let's go viral situation.
But, like, you have to be willing to give upthe 80% to find your 20% because, like, that's
like, if you can just be you, because, like,20% one out of five people are probably gonna
resonate with you fairly well, to a degree.
That's the that's the premise of this.
And it's like, a lot of people get afraid of,like, well, I don't wanna I don't wanna upset
(37:20):
that 80% even, like, they're even thoughthey're not really for me.
Like, they're not, like, they're not my people.
And unless you're building Amazon, I think youcan kinda worry a a lot more about that 20%
than the rest of the 80%.
Agree.
Actually, that makes me think of the bearsrealtor story.
I think it's the bears realtor story.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
(37:40):
No.
Please share.
It's about it's a it's one of those big onesabout authenticity.
It was about a guy that was a Bears enthusiast,Bears fanatic, whatever, and his new office had
yes.
Let's go Bears.
Right?
Well, he ended up meeting people that he knewwere not Bears fans.
You know?
And he went out of his way to make sure theydidn't get back to the office.
You know?
(38:00):
That he would take them to golf, take them tolunch, do anything they could, but he just
couldn't part ways with his decked out office.
You know?
But every time they got back there and theyrealized that he was a Bears fan, if they
weren't, it fell out.
You know?
And he wasn't willing to part with that.
So no matter what, he shouldn't have beenhanging out with those people in the first
place.
He should've seen their jersey for a mile away,and he should've brought them straight to the
(38:22):
office and been authentic about himself, right,from day one.
So that ever since I heard that, I thought I'mbringing people to my Dolphins office.
You know what I mean?
From day one, I'm letting them know that, youknow, this is who I am, and I don't wanna hide
behind anything or or, become somethingdifferent to grow my business that'll never be
part of my plan.
And so they yeah.
(38:42):
They're here, and they know me right away.
That's, I mean, I'm literally wearing an ASUhat right now.
There's another one behind me.
I'm very open with my love of the Sun Devils,so much so at times.
Like, I get, like, the, hey.
I went to U of A, and then that but the thingthat's wild that that then starts conversation.
Right?
Like, it's just, like does.
Yeah.
(39:03):
It's wild.
And, again, my example is always silly becauseI'm I'm actually, my hat's not backwards today.
So, like, that's just maybe a step in the rightdirection.
But I'm usually backwards hat, just kind of adude.
Like, just a just a dude, and that seems towork out
for me.
You're doing Justin.
But I'm just a I I don't I'm not I don't Iwouldn't say I'm a bro, but I'm a dude.
(39:23):
Like, I'm just a dude that, you know, is prettypositive in generality and and just like to
share the things that I I really care for.
You are, Justin.
That's true.
Nice.
Let's talk about, this event that we're gonnahave in May.
May 8.
Let's talk let's talk a little about this.
So, this AAC growth summit, so if you're in thePhoenix area, and you're listening to this
(39:46):
podcast prior to May 8 on, 2025, please reachout.
I'll put something in the the show notes, for alink for all that fun stuff.
But we're, you know, we're essentially tryingto give give aid and add value to the space,
and, Nicole is one of the wonderful partners ofthis this journey that I have.
And it's gonna be tons of fun.
(40:07):
So, one, come to that.
But then, two, what are you most excited aboutof this event?
Most excited about for this event is, I wouldprobably say the caliber of speakers, honestly,
because I'm excited to see Justin and Will, ofcourse.
I'm excited to see Cassie talk about modernbusiness development relation building, you
know, relationship gardening because I thinkthat that's something that's really awesome.
(40:27):
I've learned a lot from, you know, that programthat she's doing is very powerful.
And a couple of the people that we have comingin, I think are excellent.
So much fun.
So exciting.
I don't ever get to see them.
So I feel like they're the elusive, super coolpeople that you would really hope to run into
if you were out and about, but now we're gonnahave them there.
And so that's I know it's gonna be great.
(40:47):
No.
For sure.
It would second your agreement on the peoplebeing there, talking accounting stuff with
Scott as well as m and a, having an m and apanel, and doing that and having literally,
somebody's gonna fly in for us, which is a wildthat's how it like, I I feel feel like
Celebrity.
Yeah.
Exactly.
That's those are celebrity clients.
So, that and then just bringing peopletogether.
(41:10):
I have obviously a deep passion for trying tohelp people.
Like, that is it keeps everything in my lifejust comes back around to, like, how do I help?
Like, you know, how can I be impactful?
I just wanna make sure I add impact everywhereI go so then other people can have massive
impact, their lives and businesses' legacy.
And I just think of that.
I'm like, oh, man.
Like, this is such a beautiful way to presentthat.
I'm like, hey.
(41:30):
Like, this is about being impactful.
So that for me is totally where it's at.
Yeah.
And, it's a good opportunity because of theexecutive draw.
Honestly, it'll be a lot of leadership rolesthat are gonna be giving us insight, giving us
feedback for the next one, you know, new panelspeakers.
You never knew who we'll get next time.
I'm excited to see who all commits.
(41:51):
I know.
It's certainly not exciting.
And the venue's awesome.
And all that's all this information is to comeas we we build out the, lure and excitement for
all of it so that there what else is going onin your life?
So, obviously, you're, a booming business, sothat's amazing.
That's wonderful.
Booming.
Hey.
Making making making moves, making thingshappen.
Obviously, the bet you're having.
What else is going on in life?
(42:13):
I told you that I'm speaking at ASBO inLaughlin the April, which is awesome.
The Arizona Association of School BusinessOfficials.
So superintendents, CFOs, business planningdirectors for school districts all over the
state will be there in Laughlin
Awesome.
For a
three day conference at the Aquarius, which isa fun little dive if you know about Laughlin.
(42:35):
You know?
It's it's like a movie out there.
You know?
It's like nothing I've ever seen.
It's pretty cool.
That is cool.
I will if you give me the information, I'llmake sure I drop that in the show notes,
because this episode will be out before then.
As well as, if somebody wanted to get ahold ofyou, what would be the best way for them to do
that?
It would be on my website, john-delano.com.
(42:56):
I'm sure all of this information will be in theshow notes.
You can call or text too.
But recap reminder that the AEC growth summitis on May 8.
So you have to put that on your calendar nowbecause it's coming right up.
It is.
Love that.
Anything else you'd like to tell the peoplebefore we say our goodbyes?
Can't think of anything, Justin.
(43:16):
You should have given me some really cool,like, you know, outro tagline or something
awesome.
I'm like, I feel like that is the most on thespot question.
What else do I got for you?
Dave.
I I like to leave it open.
I like to leave, some of these things open.
One thing that me and Will ask a lot of timeson the building scale, proper, episode, at the
(43:37):
end, we always ask, if you go back 20, whatwould you tell yourself?
So we can end it that way.
If you if I went back twenty years, I wouldtell myself, going girl, HTML is where it's at.
You're gonna live a wonderful life twenty yearsfrom now with your own business named after
your children.
You're gonna live an awesome place inScottsdale.
Still, and you're gonna love every day that youwake up.
Keep going.
(43:59):
I love that.
I love that you're just essentially pumpingyour four, earlier self up.
You're like, hey.
Like, it's gonna get great.
It's gonna be amazing.
I love that.
Care of me.
Yes.
I I appreciate her.
Awesome.
Well, this has been a ton of fun.
I'm gonna I'm gonna keep talking to Nicole,but, we're gonna say our goodbyes to you.
Listeners, until next time.
(44:20):
Adios.
Bye, guys.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(44:43):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Business developers, once they know about theirclients and what they're looking for, can bring
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nail it, to have the landmine statements andthe RFPs that are speaking to the people in the
room.
Do Do you wanna know why?
Because we know who was in the room.
Thank you, BD director.
You know?
Because they give us that awesome intel.
(00:22):
And so those three people can truly be threeamigos for your company.
You know?
And they're very overwhelmed and distracted,frazzled, and likely not satisfied when they're
all the same person.
Like sales and marketing, sales and businessdevelopment, marketing business, all of that.
It's it's a huge red flag when I start workingwith a company, and I try to tell them that and
(00:42):
advocate for it.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth,
wealth, and freedom from your AEC company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagle, and we're your podcasthosts.
(01:05):
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
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So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
building scale.
Hey listeners, it's will here.
Our mission is to help the AC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
(01:28):
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
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So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(01:50):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of buildingscale, specifically the building connection
series where I get to interview people that Iknow, friends, as well as new connections that
I make throughout my journey through life.
We get to talk about business as normalbuilding scale, but we also talk a lot about
life and legacy and how we're pushing towardshappiness and and all kinds of new and fun
(02:13):
ideas that way.
Just give you a little bit different of aflavor of the building scale show.
So, yeah, my guest today, is becoming quite thecloser friend, I would say.
At least that's certainly how
I would introduce her, and
her name is Nicole Rodriguez.
She is a marketing and branding powerhouse,award winning three times.
(02:34):
She's all about driving results when it comesto branded marketing, specifically in the AEC
space in public sectors.
She's been doing this for a while.
So she's gonna share some of those ideas and,like, things to do if you're just starting out
or things to do as you're trying to buildtowards that CMO seat, all that fun stuff.
Also, she's part of the board of influence,which is this thing that we started with her,
(02:57):
Cassie Wells, and Scott Franchini, who've awfulalso been on the show.
And, yeah, it's it's, really, really cool.
We're having an event here in Phoenix later inthe spring here in May, so I look forward to
that as well.
But, that that's kind of it.
I I I'm just gonna kinda let this seep into youas it did for me.
It was super enjoyable to talk with her, and,I'm really excited to share the show.
(03:20):
Alright.
Here it is.
Nicole.
What?
Always so good to see you.
We see each other all the time now because, theevent that we're playing together, which is
really, really cool, and I love.
And I'd love to talk a little bit about that,for listeners and stuff.
But, the first thing I I'm very alwaysintrigued is how how did you get into,
(03:43):
marketing?
And then specifically, how did you decide, hey,you know what?
I really like construction, and I'm I'm reallyinterested in that life.
And let's let's talk about that a little bit.
Man, Justin, I'm gonna dial you back to thedays of Myspace.
Does that make sense?
Wow.
Myspace.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna take you back over twenty yearsago when I had an enthusiasm born for graphic
(04:05):
design and web development by understanding thecheat codes in Myspace and building my own
Myspace with HTML.
So I went out of my way to learn HTML and buildmy first websites through that, and that's
actually how I started over twenty years ago.
Wow.
That's wild.
When I worked at a law firm for a long time, Ibuilt their website, which was, interesting
(04:27):
because they I was, like, just the youngestperson that understood technology enough.
Like, I I had no training whatsoever, so it'svery much like learning HTML and, like, using
Dreamweaver to, like Yeah.
Make a website, which now, WordPress and allthe other ones have made this significantly,
easier than literally just hashing out HTMLcode all day.
(04:48):
But very interesting.
That that's very similar, to the starts of ourstories.
Mine went in a different direction now.
Yeah.
Way different.
Down with my passion.
Yeah.
We're still making content.
Right?
We're still creatives.
We're still doing whatever we want, using theInternet, the, you know, the dawn of that time.
You know what I mean?
It was going from that AOL dial up sound atschool that I heard to me on, you know, the old
(05:13):
white laptop, the old white Mac, you know,doing my thing.
Whatever I could to stay online and, I don'tknow, to sell that work.
I really wanted to be in this space and sellthat work.
That's it's very interesting to think of howthat what like, you know, we say twenty years
ago, right, after my my space
22.
Yeah.
(05:34):
It is wild to think, but yet the advancementsthat have occurred in that time frame, and
we're talking about AI now and, like, I canliterally have a blog and then give it to
Google and then Google pitch me back a twentyminute podcast episode about it.
It's like wild.
Like, what occurs now in content creation?
What with content creation, when in in whenyou're looking at a brand that you're working
with, what what are the what are the secrets?
(05:56):
What are the things that, like, people shouldreally try to dive into and then avoid
completely, across the board?
I would say dive into completely.
One of my favorite ones that's difficult to dobecause no one really likes to do it is compare
yourself to others, Justin.
Nobody they teach us right now with all thewellness content out there not to compare
(06:19):
yourself to others personally orprofessionally, but marketers unfortunately
have to do that every single day.
We have to compare our clients even to eachother and the things that we're doing year over
year, quarter over quarter.
We benchmark ourselves, and it requires a lotof comparisons.
So I would say that if you're only lookinginward and you're not looking at what everybody
else is doing, especially streamlining,especially AI, things like that, then you're
(06:41):
falling behind for sure.
So dive into that.
Dive into comparison a little bit and just usethe analytics, you know, not your emotions, of
course.
And then,
Is that, like see some, like, you know,obviously, we have a ton of content.
You're you're on the podcast.
You're gonna get grip of content here too justfrom this, conversation, which is awesome fun.
Are you saying, like, hey.
(07:01):
Like, just see what other people are doing andhow they're ripping sixty second videos or
thirty second videos and, like, try to, youknow, just, you know, taste the taste the, be
very and what is it?
I was gonna say taste the water, but that's notI don't think that's a thing.
Just give a lot of, like, taste testing,essentially of saying like, hey.
What about this headline?
Or what about this thing?
(07:22):
Or what about, you know, what does this looklike?
And then, obviously, seeing other people doingit and other people growing as a brand or what
it is, and then going down that path and sayinglike, oh, there's things here that I'm not
doing that I need to at least startinvestigating.
Absolutely.
I mean, one of the big ones would be for peopleto see what others are doing on social media.
You don't have to be an active social mediaparticipant, post or commenter at all, but to
(07:46):
have your eyes and ears on it every single dayis super important.
You know what I mean?
To see what other people are doing.
The comparison can start there honestly withwhat they're talking about, who they're
aligning with, how frequently they do it.
And then you can actually use those metricswhen you're like, you know what?
I can kind of wrap my mind around maybe a topfive group of individuals that are pretty
visible in my space.
I might even consider them a competitor.
(08:07):
You know?
I would say the secrets out there would begoing into Semrush and using a paid, you know,
premium analytics tool.
We'll show you exactly what those folks arepaying for, how and where they're getting
traffic from, and, maybe how they're achievingwhat you perceive to be viability in the space,
you know, so that you can get past it, so thatyou can grow past it and just do better all
(08:27):
around.
But it's gonna take using your intuition andlooking for that information to find out the
people that you even wanna be watching and thenusing tools to teach yourself how to do better.
What's the first thing you find when you'reworking with a brand?
Like, what's the first thing you see thatthey're not doing, but it would be easy for
(08:47):
them to do?
Not doing, but easy for them to do, I wouldsay, like I just said, is pay for analytics
because I'll tell you the difference why.
Okay?
You could look at Google Analytics and a lot ofpeople have Google Analytics Google Analytics
connected to their website.
If you log into that, it's like having asecurity camera outside.
You know, you can see who comes and goes.
(09:09):
You can see who comes to the door, whatever.
You can see maybe what kind of car they showedup in, what direction they go after that.
Right?
You can see some stuff, but you can't seeeverything.
If you had some rush and you were paying forthat tool or paying a marketing agency to look
at information for you, you would see theinside of the house.
You would see once they open that door, whatrooms they went into, what drawers they open,
(09:29):
how long they spent in each room, and trulywhat they were looking for.
And if they came up to a door that was lockedor a drawer that was broken.
Because a lot of the times that's changing theexperience that people are having on your
website, and Google Analytics doesn't showthat.
It doesn't show the visitor journey that youneed to know why maybe a funnel is
malfunctioning, or it seems like a lot oftraffic is coming to a page, but then nothing's
(09:51):
happening.
It may be a broken button on Edge.
You know?
And we just don't know because you weren'tlooking at, you know, the true client journey,
I guess.
You know what I mean?
Of of what you're paying for.
What we're all paying for matters.
Right?
You know, our budgets are important to us,especially in the public sector where I work,
you know, governments, school districts, andcities, counties, state agencies, the federal
(10:13):
government, they're all trying to save money.
And so they really need to see the metric on ispaying for this important.
Yes.
It is.
No matter what.
If you're a public or private sectorcontractor, it's important to pay.
Do you think that the average, owner or whatwhoever you're working with internally, whoever
that executive is, is capable of digesting thatknowledge.
(10:37):
Because, you know, maybe they're really, youknow, they're a really great operator.
They're, really great visionary, or sales orwhatever they're really good at.
But when it comes to, like, marketinganalytics, that's a whole other expertise.
People, like, especially when you get thebigger organizations, it's like there's just a
person that does that.
(10:58):
Like, that's that's their sole job.
Yes.
There's a CMO leader.
Yes.
A creative leader that has been entrusted toalso, you know, I guess, tight rope the walk of
executive leadership as well.
And that's not always something that a creativewants to do.
And I've struggled with that in my journey asfar as do I want to stop or do less of creative
(11:19):
work so that I can serve my clients in anexecutive capacity, train more, review reports,
complete reports, sit in meetings, and thingsthat are just not creative work that I've spent
those last two decades doing.
And so I think that that's something thatpeople ask themselves and decide not to do.
And maybe that's why there's not that, youknow, that rule so often in contractors.
(11:40):
Well, a lot of things that we do at Spot is alot of strategy teaching.
So we're very educational.
Right?
Like, we we obviously, we're gonna do the workfor you, like, I'm just the IT stuff or cyber
stuff.
But it's a lot of, like, why are we doing it?
Right?
It's just, like, you have to understand alittle bit of the why I feel like.
And, I just had a call with a partner that wasasking about, like, how do I track things?
(12:02):
How how should I track some some components?
And I was helping them kinda, like, walkthrough, like, this is what I would do.
Here are tools that I'd use.
If it's, you know, like, you said, SME rush or,like, a CallRail or something like that or or a
website tracking, video tracking, clicktracking, stuff like that.
But I feel like I was talking to them, and Iand they were like, oh my god.
How like, you are thinking about this sofurther advanced or, you know, like, very, very
(12:28):
much strategic.
I feel like there's a lot of businesses thatdon't have somebody like that in place
specifically in the marketing side because theyjust think, like, I just need a marketer to
send some emails or, like, make some prettystuff.
Right?
And it's just like, well, no.
No.
No.
There's a whole other piece that it's not just,like, creating content or creating, if it's an
(12:48):
ad or for whatever it is in a magazine, it'smore of the, oh, like, we're doing this and
we're pairing it with these six things, andthen that is what what you actually get into
this is being strategic.
How do you how how can how can a business startthinking that way?
Because I feel like they're not getting enoughstrategic learning, essentially.
(13:11):
Yeah.
I would say, you know, as hard as it is, Iwould shake yourself out of survival mode.
Because if you're only looking into the quarterahead of you and you think even that's far and
you're not looking that three to five years,you're lacking hope.
You're lacking the spark.
You know?
You're lacking the fire.
And I also did when I was younger in thecorporate world.
(13:32):
I kinda felt like I've I need to do today'stask.
And then a couple, you know, a couple monthsmaybe in advance is what I was looking at
events and feeling very overwhelmed with mycommitments.
And I was lacking hope in myself and for mycompany envision because I wasn't brought on
board in a transparent way into the c suiteright away to be like, you're a part of this.
You're a part of the growth.
(13:53):
Wake up every morning inspired because what youdo can impact your income and our future and
blah blah blah.
I had to tell myself that.
And every once in a while, I got it from placeslike a really cool podcast like this or SMPS.
I got little doses of inspiration to remindmyself that I am a pillar.
I'm responsible here.
You know, we could really be in themultimillions more year over year than they
(14:14):
ever imagined possible if I can inspire them todo something a little bit more creative, a
little bit more different, and not be in thegrind, not think about the quarter that I'm
living in, you know, and be inspired by what'sto come year or two years away.
And so if a principal can do that now, thenthey can impression that upon their team.
You know, maybe they could have that meetingwith their marketer and send them home fired
(14:36):
up, you know, and it can start from there, andthey can be the steward of that fire that helps
them look farther.
When you start helping a business, what'swhat's the biggest thing you have to help them
get over?
Obviously, like, hey.
Start looking at analytics.
We talked about that.
Cool.
But, like, what's the it's almost more like anemotional thing.
It's not necessarily like, oh, you need tostart pushing out an email every week or
something.
It's more of, like, I need you to startthinking of it this way.
(14:59):
Like, I need you to start getting to a placewhere you're looking at this in a more
strategic way.
What do you find that you're, like, always, youknow, the beginning of your relationship you're
always trying to
I would say, one, my direct and personalrelationship with the marketing person on the
client side.
Because a lot of times, they can be misinformedthat they're they're I'm there to be replay you
(15:21):
know, they're being audited essentially intheir role for what they've been doing wrong
or, you know, I've been lacking in creativitybefore a consultant, you know, came on board or
whatever.
And so I take time to nurture thoserelationships to let them know that nothing was
really wrong.
If you didn't know what you didn't know, that'sgreat.
But right now is a perfect time for you toshine in your role because they're investing in
marketing, you know, so we're gonna worktogether.
(15:41):
And I always try and smooth that over rightaway so that they know that my life's ambition
was to have my own company.
And no companies offer ever in the world, Ithink, will take me away from what I'm doing.
And so I have zero interest in replacing themor helping them, you know, not work with me,
you know, to achieve their goals.
So once I have that, once I feel like I have agreat relationship with the marketing role with
(16:02):
my clients, then we can work together to havebigger, better creative ideas.
And then actually, it's usually just them beingscared about committing the time because long
meetings end up in tons of awesome creativeideas.
And what happens when I recap them for you,Justin?
It can feel a little overwhelming when you'rescrolling through my recap emails.
Right?
I mean, you're not the only one that said thisis that email is too long.
(16:25):
I I will read it or, you know, whatever thecase is, it's fine.
I I give all the information upfront and thatthat's so that everybody, you know, is
involved.
But I would say the overwhelm of knowing thatyou are going to have to work harder to meet
your goals is is another big mountain decline.
Got it.
First, I think communication's huge.
That's hugely important.
Right?
So if it's that's internally to, a member ofthe marketing team that it may be frightened
(16:49):
for their job, which that we see that all thetime.
If there's an in a IT person in a company andwe're coming in, in those scenarios, it's
almost always in a co managed way where it'slike, oh, no.
No.
We're doing this thing, and you are taking allof this thing.
And, like, we're it's very much, like, hide I'mnot doing what you're doing.
We're doing different things because there's somuch to be done, and and marketing certainly
(17:11):
goes in that same category of, like, oh my god.
Like, you could be you could be the person thatjust does ads compared to, like Totally.
All of the
Specialist roles.
Yeah.
Whole departments.
And all, like, all of those things.
So where do you see the blend of, sales andmarketing from your point of view?
Sales and marketing come together every singleday.
(17:31):
Obviously, I was unaware that I would have tobecome a sales professional and sell marketing
services when I started a creative agency.
No one really put that unfortunately that'sokay.
Other for me, Justin, that I would have to getinto sales, that I would have to network, that
I have to promote myself and do uncomfortablethings.
Very uncomfortable things for an introvertcreative who really imagined myself providing
(17:54):
creative services for the rest of my lifewithout thinking beyond how I was going to have
to sell those.
You know what I mean?
And become an agency owner.
So that being said, now that I've learned aboutthat, and the difference between sales and
marketing, I see myself so much as the supportrole now.
When before I thought I was responsible foreverything that they had to do, I was
responsible.
I was carrying this weight.
(18:15):
But now I feel that weight completely released.
I work so much better with sales roles nowbecause I understand how we work together and
that they need marketing and appreciate it.
And then we don't even exist without themselling the project.
So we work to in every way.
I feel like I remember having this conversationbecause, like, you'll have companies that have
(18:35):
a CMO and, the chief sales officer or chiefchief revenue officer, you know, again,
depending on the title of which they have.
And I've always said, I'm like, yeah.
But, like, they need to be so intertwined.
Like, it's not to say you can't have two peoplelooking at the the different departments
individually because I can totally I canunderstand that.
But, like, they have to be so interwoven thatit's like I, you know, I see it's like, who is
(18:59):
responsible for the overarching thing thatthey're both doing because they both have to be
playing from the same sheet of music.
Right?
Because otherwise, they might go out and pitchan idea to somebody, and that person then
naturally comes back to their office, and thenthey go and look the website.
And the website doesn't say anything about thatidea, and it becomes like, well, this they feel
(19:20):
like they're being lied to in some way.
Not not necessarily like, oh my god.
This is just a this leads to salesmen, but it'smore of like, that's not what they do.
That that seems like inaccurate, what he saidto me.
So seeing that for such a long time, I'm like,oh my god.
Like, they're you have they have to betogether.
They have to be on the same page.
Otherwise, it all falls apart.
But it could also fall apart, Justin, when theyare the same person, which reaches did an
(19:42):
awesome presentation on, with Cassie aboutsales, marketing, and business development, and
how contractors really thrive when those threefolks are completely different individuals.
So, the reason why is because if somebodythinks that they truly only have one target
market let's say, you know, a contractor thinksthey work with schools, Wake up every single
day just thinking about the people that aregoing to work at schools and completely
(20:04):
forgetting their manufacturer relationships andtheir retention strategies to keep their
employees.
Their other two huge target audiences.
So all marketing, you know, manufacturers, thelogistics of how you get your product or
service to your clients.
That's an entirely other target audience ofrelationships that need to be built.
(20:27):
And I think that where your the sourcemanufacturing products, whatever it is that you
do, where that comes from, your sales managershould nurture those relationships because
they're part of building the sales pipeline.
The business developers should only care aboutthe client's needs.
Truly what the client wants to have.
Every single day, it doesn't happen.
They should only care about their personal andprofessional interests only.
(20:48):
And marketing should care about the companygoals, reaching the company goals that have
been outlined in the marketing plan and all thedifferent creative ways that we can do that.
Should we be worried, marketers, every singlemorning about, you know, sales and where they
would come from or different strategies of howto sell the product, really?
No.
Because our sales managers should be integratedwith us and, you know, giving us creative ideas
(21:10):
about how to sell products and all of the bestways to reach target audiences.
Right?
We work together on that.
Business developers, once they know about theirclients and what they're looking for, can bring
that intel to us for better graphics, forbetter messaging, and communications, and RFPs
to nail it, to have the landmine statements andthe RFPs that are speaking to the people in the
(21:30):
room.
Do you wanna know why?
Because we know who was in the room.
Thank you, BD director.
You know?
Because they give us that awesome intel.
And so those three people can truly be threeamigos for your company.
You know?
And they're very overwhelmed and distracted,frazzled, and likely not satisfied when they're
all the same person.
Like sales and marketing, sales and businessdevelopment, marketing is all of that.
(21:54):
It's it's a huge red flag when I start workingwith a company, and I try to tell them that and
advocate for it.
I they're definitively different skills.
There's they're different fully differentdepartments.
I would totally put that in in place.
I for me, I just think when especially when ifit's not the CEO, whoever it is, like, whatever
executive, like, if somebody doesn't have apulse on the overarching umbrella of, like,
(22:18):
what is happening, I think this is where peopleget frustrated.
Like, it's just it's very frustrating.
It's like, oh, like, a marketer could be doingsomething, and it's like, wait.
Yeah.
But we're not we're, like, we're not going downthat path anymore or something that's just
like, wait.
What?
Like, why are like, what?
Well, sales found it easier to sell to this x,right, this demo.
It's like, well, that'd be great, but, like, Ididn't I was unaware of this because we were
(22:39):
kinda on the
same page.
The communication is not coming to one place.
We're not on one vision, and that's where I seethings go right.
And I I agree with you.
Like, trying to have one person do do all thefunctionality of that is that's impossible.
Like, that's,
like, doing
doing one of those departments all by yourselfis already, Herculean.
So to try to add on others, it's just insane.
(23:02):
Sure.
Yeah.
So, let's talk a little bit about your when youget that demo.
Right?
So knowing the who you want, I feel like a lotof businesses, they come and they say, like,
well, especially when you're they're if they'restarting and they're, you know, they're
growing, they're like, well, I I could dobusiness with everybody.
I could I could help everyone.
Right?
(23:22):
And then that can become a trap.
It's not to say that you can't do things thatway.
But I certainly what we've seen at Spot is,like, we wanna be very specific.
We wanna be industry focused.
That's for us.
Location focused doesn't matter as much for usin IT, but, like, when we look at, like, hey.
We wanna be the AEC leader when it comes to ITand cybersecurity.
Like, we we keep pushing towards that, and,like, we're attacking that every day.
(23:45):
What do you see when you take people that arelike, hey.
Like, what's your demo?
Is it just so broad that, like, this is verydifficult to speak to directly to your point
of, like, hey.
I wanna have those key, you know, sentences or,you know, those those knockout, you know,
phrases that's like, wow.
It sounds like you're talking directly to me.
I think that the first step to that is, like,well, who is that demo pretty specifically, if
(24:08):
it's industry or for something else?
Because, like, otherwise, it's too hard becausetalking to all humans is, like, that's an
impossibility.
It's totally hard.
Right?
So most of the time, people are dictated bytheir budget.
Right?
They may have insane dreams about all thepeople in the world that they love picking up
their services too.
Right?
But we always have to be creative within thebudget, you know, within the time and money
that people have to achieve their goals.
(24:29):
So most of the time, the timeliness of that isthe issue.
Do you want it done tomorrow?
Or do you want it done five years from now?
Is the whole point of outlining a marketingplan.
And without the document, there's no deadline.
You know what I mean?
People could dream about it forever.
So we truly encourage that to put some time andeffort to it.
You're going to need to pay for the structureof that to facilitate your mind getting all
(24:50):
that information out of your brain and ontopaper.
That is the biggest hang up.
You know?
It's just really sitting down and putting itinto a real plan and stopping talking to
yourself about your goals and including theteam with something legitimate and, putting
things on the calendar and holding yourselfaccountable when they don't happen, changing
course quarterly or annually when you need toto meet your goals and just, sticking to it
(25:15):
instead of thinking about it.
For companies that have gone more like a salerep, you know, an SDR, you know, a a caller,
you know, that kind of vibe, And they haven'tput a ton of emphasis on marketing just
historically, but they're coming to a pointwhere they're realizing, like, man, like, this
isn't working or this isn't this isn't goingthe way I want it to do.
What would be advice for them as they're makinga transition or at least somewhat of a
(25:39):
transition of that budget to some otherfunctionality that's is lead generation is the
initiative?
Well, do they have a brand?
No.
Have they ever had a brand?
Had they ever had a target target audiencespecific message ever before?
Or has it always just talked about theirservices?
You know, I would look at that and then askmyself, what are they able to pull off with
(26:02):
what they have done so far?
You gain trust with Google over time based onif you had social media or not, if your domain
was active and you had organic versus directversus paid traffic.
All of those things, you know, gain trust withGoogle.
If you've only been around one to two years andanother company has been around twenty years,
even with the most horrific, hard to read,broken, and virus website, they will outperform
(26:26):
you.
Unfortunately, because they have been in thegame longer with keywords that have been
specific and visited multiple times.
Unfortunately, even with a horrific back outrate.
So you will have to pay a little bit more toincrease, you know, your visibility past those
folks, honestly.
But you can still do it in a shorter amount oftime if you pay attention every single month to
(26:47):
what you're doing.
So I remember I told you to log into thedashboards and look every single time.
If you don't wanna do that, your marketer can.
You know, for sure.
But honestly, I think that you're doing apretty good job making your name known.
Spot migration and building scale is the firstand only I would think of.
So you'd have to tell me in this episode.
You don't have to take your time and tell mewhat the number one thing you did was to carve
(27:11):
out that name for you.
One, thank you.
Appreciate that a ton.
I
feel like it's
just a lot of it's a lot of continuing to just,like, push out truth.
I think that that's that's the I think that'sthe thing I really realized.
I felt like, hey.
Like, I'm just gonna just be me, and, like,we're gonna we're just gonna go from there.
Like, in if that works out, awesome.
(27:33):
If that doesn't work out, at least I wasn'ttrying to be something else, and then it didn't
work.
So a lot of of just
trying to put That's the mic drop, Justin.
That's good.
No one else you can be.
That for sure.
I completely agree.
Also, question, a lot of people ask me thisbecause they'll, we've done PPC, Google PPC for
(27:56):
a long time to gain clients.
It was, up until two years ago was that was,like, man, like, that's how we get a majority
of our clientele.
And now that that has shifted to other otherchannels.
But when people think of SEO and PPC, like,what are you know?
And my guess is you're gonna say both, or whatdoes your budget have?
(28:16):
But, like, what where should they start, orwhat should they do, or are those good avenues
to even pursue if you're kinda starting off onthis, you know, journey of marketing?
Journey.
Yes.
Journey.
Zero to a hundred, and it takes a lot of thingsthat I've seen certainly.
But, like, where where do you where do youkinda put those two PPC and, SEO?
(28:38):
Big dream journey.
Everybody has it.
Of course.
Everybody has it.
Okay.
So I would ask them to describe what wouldhappen should they receive thousands of calls
and emails.
Because I would love to think that, you know,my campaigns are well thought out.
I've been in the game two decades.
I am going to bring astronomical amounts oftraffic and interest to your brand if we work
(29:01):
together.
What are you gonna do when that happens?
And they're gonna say, oh, I'll I'll I'll I'llI'll and they'll realize that they didn't have
the team or infrastructure truly in place toserve and increase in marketing and interest
and response to quotes and answered phone callsand, you know, engagement with the chatbot and
all the things that their dreams have been havebeen, you know, getting us to this point on.
(29:22):
So I would say, do you need a receptionist?
You know, like, there are other things that weneed to talk about realistically, logistically?
Because, you know, right now you aren't theperson to make sales phone calls.
And remember what I just said, it's becausehe's not the sales manager.
He's the he's the principal or, you know, thepre construction director or you know what I
mean?
Somebody that's that's on their way out in fiveyears and is looking for a new like, they're
(29:43):
not the person to answer sales phone calls, youknow, or return them or craft it, you know, a
thoughtful email that says, thank you forreaching out to us.
We got your web inquiry.
This individual is going to contact you withinthe next one to two days.
And, stay tuned because we're really excited towork with you.
Have something like that going on.
It will never be any of the people that I'mworking with at the time.
(30:03):
So most of the time, they actually need toincrease and have an HR, you know, come to
Jesus before they have a marketing, you know,activity or a campaign investment.
And if they do have those things, then we get agreen light to moving forward of how they could
actually fulfill an increase in traffic andinterest.
So being operationally prepared.
I I've seen this a ton.
(30:25):
I've seen
Don't blame me when it fails.
You know?
Even with even with us over time, we, like,crap.
You've grown too fast, too quickly.
That has problems.
And and not even just, like, the intake of thesale part of it, to your point.
Like, yeah, what what what would you do if yougot, you know, you know, even 50 people that
request in the next hour.
Yeah.
Right?
(30:45):
And I think that people also then forget, like,yeah.
You also then have to deliver on whatever thething that you do.
If you're, say, if you're a specialty trade orif you're an architect, like, you still have to
deliver on those things that you're agreeingto.
And then you say, oh, wait.
I don't nearly have enough people, which thenit's like, okay.
Well, then you have to hire people.
Alright.
Well, that's a whole process.
Do you have a hiring process?
(31:05):
Like, do you have, like there's so, like,there's so many things going
on that.
Careers marketing now we're talking about.
Right?
Now we're talking about yes.
The booth at the alumni fair instead of thosecampaigns.
Yes.
It makes a lot more sense when you can get downto the nitty gritty of how they're going to
find success through that.
Do you find that a company that is deep withtheir culture are easier to market with?
(31:27):
You know, they're they have an easier timemarketing.
I'd love to think that.
I thought earlier in my career that familyfounded, you know, businesses would pull on
people's heartstrings and that they were easierto work with because everybody knew each other,
and were closer and had, you know, known eachother for years and were very committed.
But there I would say that it's not differentthan anybody else and that there may even be
(31:48):
more drama and, you know, fallouts and stuffand family owned businesses.
Honestly, it does not matter.
The ones that I work best with, it has no itdoesn't matter how long they've been in
business, who they're owned by, the age of theowner, nothing like that.
I'm telling you, it has to do with their longterm vision and hope, you know, and what how
they feel about themselves and what's possible,and that's what drives them.
(32:10):
It totally permeates from leadership all theway down, and I feel like that's what drives
them.
And they're they could have the same successand growth in six months that other clients did
in ten years by just having a different spiritabout it.
It's pretty cool to see.
No.
That's amazing.
I I asked this.
I was just so I was just at this mentionedyeah.
I was just at this retreat for, Cultivate, andthey have crazy culture.
(32:34):
Like, it is, like, infectious.
It's wild how much cheering was done in a threeday stint for, like, one another of their
colleagues.
It was wild.
And all I thought was, like, oh, man.
Like, when you have, like, that identity of,like, you you guys know who you are.
Like, there's there's no question there.
You know, going out to market with thatfeeling, huge.
(32:55):
But then also to your point, like, going tocareer fair or that, you know, finding new new,
you know, people that are gonna be employeesalso becomes easier.
But it's just because you you have identifiedyourself and said, like, hey.
Like, this is us.
Like, we are, like, super, super happy that weget to help businesses and, like, let, like,
let's go.
Like, let like, very, very high energy, And noteverybody's gonna like that, which is totally
(33:18):
fine.
But that's the point.
Right?
Like, they will find those that really wannawork with them both internally and externally.
Yeah.
And they they care less about what other peoplethink.
I don't know if you follow the the founder ofCrumble on LinkedIn, but he loves to tell his
founder stories and back in the day, the veryfirst location.
I do you follow that and know what I'm talkingabout?
(33:40):
I do.
They constantly talk about their brand everyday.
Oh, yeah.
That I I they again, brand wise, they knockedout a bark.
Also, business model, I mean, they're a goodexample of, like, what you can do, with a thing
that's just cookies.
Like, it's just, like, we just sell cookies,but we're, like, you know, probably knocking on
the the billion dollar mark or somethinginsanity.
(34:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
But very structured.
They know exactly what they're doing.
There's never more than nine items or whateveron the menu.
Right?
But you always know that what those nine itemsare are gonna be pretty great.
You know, even if you don't exactly know whatthey're gonna be, you know, when you go in
there.
Highly structured process.
And they're always on social media every singleday, really talking about brand stories and
(34:23):
celebrating each other, which I would literallytell every single contractor I work with if I
only had one, you know, brand to show them orend them with.
It would be Crumble.
One of my favorite things that they have, is Idon't remember what restaurant it was.
It might have been like a Pizza Hut orsomething like that.
But their very first location was an oldrestaurant that they knew.
Everyone's gonna know what this was before.
(34:44):
You know what I mean?
It's they're gonna know.
And he's like, doesn't matter.
You know?
They threw the sign up and they, you know,invested in their dream and went forward.
And tons of taste testing.
You know?
I I imagine them eating all their own cookiestill they're ill.
You know what I mean?
Of course.
And I would just I I'm really inspired by them,and I think that it's good to know inspiring
brands.
(35:04):
If contractors can't tell themselves right now,I would really love to be so and so brand, they
also may not just be inspired enough.
I would say go out there and look forinspiration too.
When you use Crumble, because they're very, bto c, very consumer based in comparison to,
contractor, right, where it's like unlessyou're in residential, like, you're selling to
(35:25):
another business or more b to b.
How do how do you how do you tell people, like,hey.
You as a b to b brand can have the feel of a bto c brand.
That's a I mean, that's essentially the goalthat all b to b people want.
Right?
Because it's like, man, if I could just do whatthey're doing, right, we say this is like, that
that would be so easy or that'd be that wouldbe way fun to do.
(35:46):
And I feel like great b to b brands figuredthat out.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Well, one is reminding people that they arestill real folks at the job site human.
Office.
Feel real.
I saw Hayden Building Corp congratulate KatieHayden for being a most recognized leader in
commercial real estate.
(36:07):
And hearing that name, I did not know thatKatie Hayden was the president of Hayden
Building Corp, and that that was a female ownedbusiness.
How have I not no.
Not.
I was embarrassed and horrified.
Alright?
For all the titans that we know about theirfounding stories and such, you know, especially
the women owned ones.
Through PBJ, you're you know, over the years, Iwas shocked to not know that.
And that one social media post changed changedit how I see them, changed how I feel about
(36:31):
them.
You know what I mean?
Truly, it's crazy.
You didn't know that.
And now you could know that from one socialmedia post.
So just being active on there and beingauthentic, telling your story, it could be more
impactful than you could ever realize, youknow, for the long term.
I just heard this quote, in the last two weeks.
I was listening.
I don't remember what podcast it was.
But it was, you have to be willing to, upset oror, you know, essentially not care.
(36:58):
You don't have to be, like, you know, crazy,let's go viral situation.
But, like, you have to be willing to give upthe 80% to find your 20% because, like, that's
like, if you can just be you, because, like,20% one out of five people are probably gonna
resonate with you fairly well, to a degree.
That's the that's the premise of this.
And it's like, a lot of people get afraid of,like, well, I don't wanna I don't wanna upset
(37:20):
that 80% even, like, they're even thoughthey're not really for me.
Like, they're not, like, they're not my people.
And unless you're building Amazon, I think youcan kinda worry a a lot more about that 20%
than the rest of the 80%.
Agree.
Actually, that makes me think of the bearsrealtor story.
I think it's the bears realtor story.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
(37:40):
No.
Please share.
It's about it's a it's one of those big onesabout authenticity.
It was about a guy that was a Bears enthusiast,Bears fanatic, whatever, and his new office had
yes.
Let's go Bears.
Right?
Well, he ended up meeting people that he knewwere not Bears fans.
You know?
And he went out of his way to make sure theydidn't get back to the office.
You know?
(38:00):
That he would take them to golf, take them tolunch, do anything they could, but he just
couldn't part ways with his decked out office.
You know?
But every time they got back there and theyrealized that he was a Bears fan, if they
weren't, it fell out.
You know?
And he wasn't willing to part with that.
So no matter what, he shouldn't have beenhanging out with those people in the first
place.
He should've seen their jersey for a mile away,and he should've brought them straight to the
(38:22):
office and been authentic about himself, right,from day one.
So that ever since I heard that, I thought I'mbringing people to my Dolphins office.
You know what I mean?
From day one, I'm letting them know that, youknow, this is who I am, and I don't wanna hide
behind anything or or, become somethingdifferent to grow my business that'll never be
part of my plan.
And so they yeah.
(38:42):
They're here, and they know me right away.
That's, I mean, I'm literally wearing an ASUhat right now.
There's another one behind me.
I'm very open with my love of the Sun Devils,so much so at times.
Like, I get, like, the, hey.
I went to U of A, and then that but the thingthat's wild that that then starts conversation.
Right?
Like, it's just, like does.
Yeah.
(39:03):
It's wild.
And, again, my example is always silly becauseI'm I'm actually, my hat's not backwards today.
So, like, that's just maybe a step in the rightdirection.
But I'm usually backwards hat, just kind of adude.
Like, just a just a dude, and that seems towork out
for me.
You're doing Justin.
But I'm just a I I don't I'm not I don't Iwouldn't say I'm a bro, but I'm a dude.
(39:23):
Like, I'm just a dude that, you know, is prettypositive in generality and and just like to
share the things that I I really care for.
You are, Justin.
That's true.
Nice.
Let's talk about, this event that we're gonnahave in May.
May 8.
Let's talk let's talk a little about this.
So, this AAC growth summit, so if you're in thePhoenix area, and you're listening to this
(39:46):
podcast prior to May 8 on, 2025, please reachout.
I'll put something in the the show notes, for alink for all that fun stuff.
But we're, you know, we're essentially tryingto give give aid and add value to the space,
and, Nicole is one of the wonderful partners ofthis this journey that I have.
And it's gonna be tons of fun.
(40:07):
So, one, come to that.
But then, two, what are you most excited aboutof this event?
Most excited about for this event is, I wouldprobably say the caliber of speakers, honestly,
because I'm excited to see Justin and Will, ofcourse.
I'm excited to see Cassie talk about modernbusiness development relation building, you
know, relationship gardening because I thinkthat that's something that's really awesome.
(40:27):
I've learned a lot from, you know, that programthat she's doing is very powerful.
And a couple of the people that we have comingin, I think are excellent.
So much fun.
So exciting.
I don't ever get to see them.
So I feel like they're the elusive, super coolpeople that you would really hope to run into
if you were out and about, but now we're gonnahave them there.
And so that's I know it's gonna be great.
(40:47):
No.
For sure.
It would second your agreement on the peoplebeing there, talking accounting stuff with
Scott as well as m and a, having an m and apanel, and doing that and having literally,
somebody's gonna fly in for us, which is a wildthat's how it like, I I feel feel like
Celebrity.
Yeah.
Exactly.
That's those are celebrity clients.
So, that and then just bringing peopletogether.
(41:10):
I have obviously a deep passion for trying tohelp people.
Like, that is it keeps everything in my lifejust comes back around to, like, how do I help?
Like, you know, how can I be impactful?
I just wanna make sure I add impact everywhereI go so then other people can have massive
impact, their lives and businesses' legacy.
And I just think of that.
I'm like, oh, man.
Like, this is such a beautiful way to presentthat.
I'm like, hey.
(41:30):
Like, this is about being impactful.
So that for me is totally where it's at.
Yeah.
And, it's a good opportunity because of theexecutive draw.
Honestly, it'll be a lot of leadership rolesthat are gonna be giving us insight, giving us
feedback for the next one, you know, new panelspeakers.
You never knew who we'll get next time.
I'm excited to see who all commits.
(41:51):
I know.
It's certainly not exciting.
And the venue's awesome.
And all that's all this information is to comeas we we build out the, lure and excitement for
all of it so that there what else is going onin your life?
So, obviously, you're, a booming business, sothat's amazing.
That's wonderful.
Booming.
Hey.
Making making making moves, making thingshappen.
Obviously, the bet you're having.
What else is going on in life?
(42:13):
I told you that I'm speaking at ASBO inLaughlin the April, which is awesome.
The Arizona Association of School BusinessOfficials.
So superintendents, CFOs, business planningdirectors for school districts all over the
state will be there in Laughlin
Awesome.
For a
three day conference at the Aquarius, which isa fun little dive if you know about Laughlin.
(42:35):
You know?
It's it's like a movie out there.
You know?
It's like nothing I've ever seen.
It's pretty cool.
That is cool.
I will if you give me the information, I'llmake sure I drop that in the show notes,
because this episode will be out before then.
As well as, if somebody wanted to get ahold ofyou, what would be the best way for them to do
that?
It would be on my website, john-delano.com.
(42:56):
I'm sure all of this information will be in theshow notes.
You can call or text too.
But recap reminder that the AEC growth summitis on May 8.
So you have to put that on your calendar nowbecause it's coming right up.
It is.
Love that.
Anything else you'd like to tell the peoplebefore we say our goodbyes?
Can't think of anything, Justin.
(43:16):
You should have given me some really cool,like, you know, outro tagline or something
awesome.
I'm like, I feel like that is the most on thespot question.
What else do I got for you?
Dave.
I I like to leave it open.
I like to leave, some of these things open.
One thing that me and Will ask a lot of timeson the building scale, proper, episode, at the
(43:37):
end, we always ask, if you go back 20, whatwould you tell yourself?
So we can end it that way.
If you if I went back twenty years, I wouldtell myself, going girl, HTML is where it's at.
You're gonna live a wonderful life twenty yearsfrom now with your own business named after
your children.
You're gonna live an awesome place inScottsdale.
Still, and you're gonna love every day that youwake up.
Keep going.
(43:59):
I love that.
I love that you're just essentially pumpingyour four, earlier self up.
You're like, hey.
Like, it's gonna get great.
It's gonna be amazing.
I love that.
Care of me.
Yes.
I I appreciate her.
Awesome.
Well, this has been a ton of fun.
I'm gonna I'm gonna keep talking to Nicole,but, we're gonna say our goodbyes to you.
Listeners, until next time.
(44:20):
Adios.
Bye, guys.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(44:43):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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