September 23, 2025 • 53 mins
Jon Szeliga joins to discuss his transition from technical roles to sales and his work with Neutral Host Signal Source services. He emphasizes the critical role of wireless infrastructure in modern venues and the importance of educating clients during the sales process. Jon shares strategies for hiring and training sales teams and addresses challenges in AEC industry sales. The episode covers ensuring cellular coverage for safety, radio frequency challenges in LEED-certified buildings, and budgeting for cellular systems. Jon explains compliance with Carrier and FCC standards, safety considerations, and design protocols. He explores AI's role in the AEC industry and offers reflective advice on adopting new technologies.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
It's a great way to build sales skill.
And what I mean by sales skill is just gettingtold no all the time.
All the time.
Yeah.
Mean, I was that's that was like the one wordthat I knew better than anything.
You know, in that type of environment, yougotta be quick.
You gotta think fast.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
(00:20):
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forret.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:41):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:03):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is John Shaliga, chief salesofficer at Engineering Wireless Services or EWS
(01:28):
and chief revenue officer at Amplify Q.
With nearly twenty years of telecommunicationsexperience, John has built a career around
expanding wireless connectivity in some of themost challenging environments.
He started his career in 2007 as a fieldtechnician and quickly rose through the ranks,
helping to build AWS's business developmentengine from the ground up.
Today, John leads nationwide sales strategy,large scale developments, and partnerships with
(01:53):
Fortune 500 companies, health care systems, andpublic agencies.
At AmplifyQ, he is spearheading the growth ofthe neutral host signal source services, which
is hell of a mouthful, John.
I'm just gonna tell you that right now.
Delivering private LTE four g and five g inbuildings where traditional carrier models fall
short.
AWS is a national systems integratorspecializing in DOS, public safety
(02:17):
communications, and private cellular networks,keeping hospitals, airports, stadiums, and
government buildings connected.
And with all that said, John, welcome to theshow.
Hey.
Thanks.
Yes.
So that is a mouthful.
What the hell does that mean?
That's my first question.
Question one.
Before I even ask about the business or you inyour story, I'd like to know what Neutral Host
Signal Source services are.
(02:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, in in our space, in the wirelesstelecommunications space, there's different
types of infrastructure and systems that can bedeployed.
They're dedicated for a single provider, likejust AT and T, just T Mobile, just Verizon, or
just emergency responder radio coverage.
And then there's the neutral host systems,which are, you know, essentially a neutral
(02:59):
platform for all providers to be integrated andprovide service into any type of facility.
Okay.
That makes sense to me.
It just sounds like a mouthful.
It's actually
It is a mouthful.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Alright.
So tell us about your your story.
So, obviously, about twenty years ago orgetting close to that, going into the industry,
starting as a field technician.
(03:20):
But tell us the real story and then tell usabout, EWS.
Yeah.
So I, started in 2007 with EWS.
Position, it was an entry level, RF engineer,radio frequency engineer with T Mobile.
So I I got a lot of opportunity to to reallysee the inner workings of the network side of
things.
(03:40):
But, you know, starting as a contractor, youknow, contracts only last for so long.
And at the end of my contract, I ended up justhaving to be a little more creative.
I started working in the field, supporting newsite development and deployment for T Mobile
specifically, prepping the equipment that is atthe tower.
So the the base stations and the radios thatwould be on the ground power, antenna systems,
(04:04):
you know, just getting everything ready for thecontractors that would do the build outs and
installations, you know, and work my way aroundthat.
They got to learn a lot in that that scenariobecause it was all hands on.
So I got to see the equipment.
I have to feel it, touch it, program it,understand how it worked, which gave me a good
base knowledge base for how it works, how doesthis happen.
(04:25):
But this is where five bars of signal comesfrom.
It comes from these devices.
It was it was a really neat opportunity.
You know, working in in the Valley in PhoenixValley for through the summers, it's not very
fun.
Not at outside.
Yeah.
And the way that the the way that planning workon the carrier side, it's like, we're, you
know, we're gonna build everything in Phoenixin the summer at the hottest time.
(04:47):
And then, you know what?
We're gonna do all the rest of the builds northin the winter.
So it's either you're burning up or you'refreezing.
And, you know, it was it was tough to get usedto that.
So I had a couple more opportunities come up,and there were requests for in building
coverage and distributed antenna systems.
So I thought to myself, why would I wanna workoutside and I can work in this climate
(05:09):
controlled environment and not have to worryabout anything.
So transitioned pretty quick into that space,into the the desk space and the in building
coverage space.
And, you know, I I really enjoyed it.
Every building is different.
Every facility is different.
So it wasn't just, you know, doing the samething every day.
You have to see a lot of really interestingplaces, high security environments.
(05:32):
So, you know, that was just it was neat.
But over time, you know, we started to slowdown in the opportunities that were coming in
from our carrier partners.
It's, common cycles that take place where thework slows down.
So and working with my my boss, the owner ofthe company, you know, we were strategizing and
said, you know what?
(05:52):
We don't have dedicated sales group.
We don't have anyone that's focused on sales.
And so that was really the birth of the salesdivision and business development division
within our company a little over ten years agonow.
You know, that's that's been fun.
I've been doing this now for you know, with thesame company almost nineteen years in January.
(06:12):
So, you know, I I just really enjoyed it.
I love getting to travel around to ourdifferent customers and educate people and help
them understand, you know, what it is we do,why we do it, why they need these types of
systems and solutions in their buildings.
And, you know, just the, you know, building thevalue behind those those types of deployments.
So, you know, when I hear like in the fieldworking, understanding the tech component and
(06:38):
then sales, the other side, those usually arenot the same brain generally.
You know, it's crossover.
So how did one, were you more like, I am moresales y branded or am I more engineering y
branded?
Or was it like, no.
I just you got both sides and then thetransition became easy, you know, not that
sales is easy, but, like, it was an easiertransition.
(06:59):
Yeah.
You know, I think having a technicalunderstanding of what we were, you know,
providing or at least proposing to our ourpotential customer and clients, I think it
helped a lot.
A lot of the people that we deal with, they'rethey're technical in nature, you know, a of IT
folks, so they understand network architectureand the infrastructure.
I think that was, you know, a a big bonus thatI have working in my favor.
(07:20):
For working in at engineering where I was atAWS, you know, my younger years, I I did, you
know, some of the same stuff that remember thatsince I was a waiter in a restaurant, you know,
bartended a little bit.
I actually was one of those extremely annoyingpeople in the mall that sold phones at a kiosk.
Like, you know?
Yeah.
It's a great way to build sales skill.
(07:41):
And what I mean by sales skill is just gettingtold no all the time.
All the time.
Yeah.
I mean, was that's that was like the one wordthat I knew better than anything.
You know, in that type of environment, you hadto be quick.
You had to think fast.
You had to find find a way to grab someone'sattention to keep them interested in order to
build this rapport in a very short period oftime.
So I think that helped a lot.
(08:02):
At one point, I was also a used car salesman.
Wow.
Okay.
Those are the
yeah.
But the best but the best in this scenario,Will.
Of course.
I was, in line with, you know, how people feelabout, you know, lawyer.
Right?
You're like, oh, the scum of the earth overthere.
You know, it worked.
(08:23):
Yeah.
But that those skill sets, right, in both thosescenarios do propel you to do something much
larger and much more impactful.
Right?
Like, when you think of the built world and,like, how important these systems are to have
in these major large, you know, huge buildings,it's like, yeah, having those no's to every
person that walked past you at the mall washelpful.
And then getting, you know, an a no or, youknow, blown off response from whomever you're
(08:47):
working with at the client base because it canbe extraordinarily discouraging, certainly.
But once you get through that, yeah, I'm just,you know, I'm just good 20% of the time.
I'm probably average or above average, then,you know, rock and roll.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting too is most peopledon't realize that there is infrastructure and
these these solutions in place in a lot of thevenues they visit.
(09:08):
Every major stadium, every, you know, large,like, college campus, they all have
architecture.
This wireless infrastructure is there.
And to put it into more into perspective, youknow, wireless phones, you know, like your your
cell phone, I mean, really that wireless piece,it's only really wireless for maybe a quarter
of a mile in most most instances, unless you'rein a rural environment, where there's, you
(09:30):
know, a very tall tower that's that's coveringlarge space.
Now the carrier network in those towers,they're they're not very tall, especially in in
dense city environments.
You know, they're 60 feet tall, 80 feet tall.
And they're they're only able to support somany users.
So then when you take that thought process andyou look at the large stadiums, like State Farm
Stadium as an example, one that we revamped forthis last Super Bowl that was here.
(09:53):
There's over almost 2,000 antennas in thatfacility for just cellular phone coverage
alone.
It's a it's a big undertaking and a lot of theactual necessary infrastructure is there, tons
of fiber, lots of coax, lots of antennas,amplifiers.
You know, they're big build outs.
Yeah.
That's, I was actually just there this pastweekend and had no issue with the coverage.
(10:14):
So that's some feedback for you and the team.
Were you still good?
Yeah.
Thank you.
So let's, let's talk about that idea though,like selling this thing that people don't know
about.
Right?
That's how it like, we we when we're talkingabout infrastructure, cybersecurity is easier
for us.
People generally have a understanding theywanna be protected.
Infrastructure in in their business though isthis thing that's, like, elusive.
It they don't they don't get it, and there's alot of education that has to go to it.
(10:37):
So what does the sales process look like foryou?
Is it educational, or what what has to be doneto, like, sell a thing that most people don't
understand or don't know about?
Yeah.
Most of them I mean, there's a lot of upfronteducation that takes place with how we present
to the potential customer.
You know, we get lucky sometimes, and we'llwe'll run across a group that is familiar with
these these systems.
(10:57):
They've seen them in the past where they've hadinteractions with, you know, one of the
wireless providers.
Years ago, it was very common for businesses tohave large group accounts of, like, so maybe a
large account for Verizon, where they'd have athousand phones.
As part of those agreements, that carrier wouldprovide infrastructure within those buildings
so that the users would have five bars ofcoverage throughout because they they have to
(11:20):
and, you know, have that positive userexperience to keep users from transitioning to
another provider.
So, there is some familiarity there with largercorporations.
But, you know, in a lot of instances, you'llsee, a group or a facility that does have
issues.
They'll recognize like, oh, man, I've gotreally terrible coverage here.
Staff has been pointing that there's call dropsor, you their data throughput is terrible and
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they don't want to connect to the Wi Fi.
Well, luckily, you know, with modern technologyand things like Google, you know, most people
go in and type their issue up and they'll allof a sudden have these suggestions for types of
infrastructure solutions that could fix this.
Other groups, you know, that may be savvy onthe IT side, but don't really know what they're
looking for, they'll reach out to, let's say,like a distribution partner that they buy cable
(12:07):
from.
And those guys will typically know thesolutions and products and vendors like us that
that can support these.
Got it.
Okay.
And how do you find or how do you vet out agood salesperson?
Have you oversees sales across the country?
How do you find those people?
Sales, people can be elusive to find the rightones.
(12:27):
So how's that work?
It's a dice role, you know.
I mean, I've I've been pretty fortunate.
A few of the few of the members on the teamright now are people that I've met over the
years.
One was actually a part of the constructionteam.
Here, he'd managed the operations andconstruction for our company with the build
outs with Verizon's mobile and AT and So he,for one, knew a lot of the contacts that we
(12:50):
had, and two, understood what we were, youknow, proposing and and selling to this this
space.
Person that I have appointed as the nationaldirector for the team, he's actually out of
Atlanta.
I found him through a distribution partner.
One of the companies that we buy product from,you know, cable, antennas, and and these parts
and pieces.
And, you know, we hit it off.
(13:10):
Really cool guy, great personality, just realfast thinking and quick talking sales guy.
And, he's been with on the team now for alittle over six years.
He's, you know, great add to the team.
You know, it's just we get lucky sometimes.
Most of the people have industry experiencethat I find.
And then from there, it's do they sell?
You know?
And sometimes it works out, sometimes itdoesn't, and then you just kinda roll the
(13:34):
punches.
Right?
When you're overseeing, you know, obviously,you gotta hold people accountable.
What does that look like in like, do you have aliterally scorecard, or is it like, hey.
Here's your quota for the quarter, or here'syour quota for the year, whatever, however you
wanna, you know, put a timeline on it.
And it's like, you either hit or you don't, andthen that's it.
Yeah.
It's kinda how it works.
I mean, we we set quarterly expectations,targets for each salesperson to hit.
(13:58):
And each each person is actually assignedspecific verticals to focus on as well, you
know, either like health care, hospitality,public venues, government type work, utility
work.
And so there's you know, they've got thosespecific target areas, and they do all have
quarterly expectations.
You know, if you you missed a quarter, youknow, that kind of thing happens.
(14:20):
Right?
But if you if you miss all year long, you'reprobably gonna be looking for a job somewhere
else.
And then sales, the way that
we have it set up, and I think it's reallysimilar across the board of other companies,
is, you know, it's commission driven.
Right?
So, there's incentive to sell more.
Everyone wants to make more money.
Well, if it takes that long to figure it out,obviously, are you looking for someone that
(14:44):
has, quote unquote, book of business sort ofprior relationships?
Yeah.
You know, it helps.
It definitely helps a lot.
We've I have hired people in the past based onthings like that, you know, their experience,
just the circles they run-in, the groups thatthey know, and and things that I've seen them
do in the past.
But it's not a deal breaker if you don'talready have it's not it's really just about
(15:04):
your personality too and being, forwardthinking and having that drive to really just
go out and chase things down.
Do you have any do you have any litmus tests?
Not really.
No?
You know, I'm I'm kinda goofy when it comes tointerviewing people and and and see trying to
get a feel for them.
I ask dumb questions and they're gonna be like,where do your favorite favorite french fries
(15:24):
come from?
Are you a McDonald's guy or a Burger King guy?
You know?
And that's depending on how they respond, ifit's quick, if they have have an immediate
answer, if they just, you know, bulk shutdown,that could be a deciding factor for me because,
you know, you gotta think fast.
But, you know, aside from that, I tried tobuild up a little bit of a relationship prior
to even interviewing someone.
Got a good feel about someone, you know, alsobeen six months off and on, just kinda feeling
(15:49):
it out.
And, you know, things still look good and whatthey do throughout the course of that time
prior to even an interview, you know, thatkinda helps me at least make a decision.
Now that's interesting to take it in adirection that has that's very off the wall,
essentially.
Also, anybody listening, the actual answer tothat is definitely Arby's curly fries.
Everybody knows that.
(16:09):
That's pretty straightforward.
But nonetheless so what you know?
Yeah.
How how are how are you diving into the theseclients?
Like, what what what does that what does thatlook like?
Are you it's just relationships that are builtover time?
Is it, like, you're running ads?
Are you like, what like, how how are youdriving more and more to it?
Because, obviously, as you go from local tonational and going bigger and bigger and
(16:29):
obviously doing massive facilities, there'sthere are only so many massive facilities.
Your demographic is smaller than like, hey, wedo houses.
Then it's like, oh,
well.
Right.
You have endless the supply is endless.
So you have to be really specific about the howwe're attacking it.
What does that look like?
Yeah.
So, you know, we're in the Phoenix Valley, forinstance.
We're kinda lucky.
(16:50):
There's lot of low hanging fruit.
And with new construction, new buildings goingup, a lot of those will have requirements based
on fire code to have a system put in place forthe emergency responder radio coverage.
You know, it's a necessary item.
But so, depending on the jurisdiction and whothe AHJ is, which stands for authority having
(17:12):
jurisdiction, know, it's a fire marshal orwhoever it may be, you know, they'll dictate
and require coverage solutions specific to, youknow, policing fire facilities, let's say, over
30,000 square feet or over 50,000 square feet,or if they have underground parking, which, you
know, once you go underground, signal's notreally gonna get down there.
(17:33):
So those ones are kinda easy for us to goafter.
But the piece that's not really includedbecause it's not a code requirement is the
cellular side.
So that that's a little bit of a harder sell.
And, you know, there's a cost associated withit.
Most companies that are planning for structureor new construction don't plan for that cost.
So it's, it's usually an after the fact.
(17:54):
But, you know, the it's in my opinion, it'seasier to deal with it in the beginning and,
you know, ask for the extra money instead ofdoing it after construction is complete because
we're, you know, we're gonna go on there and beup in the ceilings.
We might have to, you know, break into a hardlit area and then do patch and paint
afterwards.
The cost for installation and construction ofthat system goes up significantly in
(18:16):
a in a finished building.
You know, if we're
good enough at selling, right, and convincing,we can we can get them in in the beginning,
but, you know, it's hit or not.
Got it.
So is that something you find often wherepeople are not people, companies, they build
whatever the structure is.
And then then, like, the fire marshal orauthority comes in and says, hey.
(18:36):
This won't work.
You need to go use somebody like John to tomake
Yeah.
Adverse and the, you know We're always kind ofthe bad guy, I guess, you know, because it's
it's not really it's really not until theeleventh hour that we can, you know, say
confidently that, yes, you do need this system.
Some buildings, you know, the new constructionmight be close to a serving site for the radio
(18:58):
signal that police and fire use and boom, youknow, they're gonna have coverage throughout
the facility.
No no system needed.
Others, you know, with this the new types ofconstruction and the, you know, the I had to
think of terminology.
Of course, when I'm on camera, I forget thesethings.
It's okay.
The it's like the camera's not there.
That's this is how I live my life, but I ampretty sure I I'm always on camera.
(19:19):
Yeah.
And and so, like, new energy efficient typebuildings, right, where you've got the coated
glass and and things like that, those blocksignal really well.
I love that stuff.
But, you know, the end result is you're almostalways gonna need some type of enhancement for
radio coverage for either fire or cellular,It's great on our our side of things, but we
actually can't test to verify and validate thebuilding will need a system until windows are
(19:43):
up, the walls or doors are in place.
Need all those potential blocking items thereto validate whether or not the solution is
going to be needed.
So that's that's kind of where we come in asthe evil bad person.
But, you know, it's a necessary evil.
These systems, especially the first respondersystems being a code requirement, you know,
it's it's for the safety of those firstresponders to go in in the event of an
(20:06):
emergency.
The kicker on that though, this is one of thethings that I love to bring up and talk about,
is while that is a code required item, what'smissed is the cellular piece in a lot of
instances because it's not code.
It doesn't have to be put in.
But if you look at the the data on where mostemergency calls are placed, it's a mobile
device.
You know, it's on your cell phone.
(20:27):
Most people have multiple devices that areconnected to, you know, smartwatches.
Maybe they've got a tablet with them as well inaddition to their phone, maybe their laptop
actually runs on, you know, Verizon or T Mobileor AT and T wireless signal instead of Wi Fi.
Are all factors and things that need to betaken into consideration And it's the
well-being of of the actual staff or users.
(20:49):
You know, you want to have happy people in yourfacilities.
You know, let's say you're in a grocery storenow with things like Instacart, you've got
these mobile shoppers that are using apps ontheir phones so that, you know, it makes sense
to have good connectivity in addition to justthe standard Wi Fi.
You don't want to overload your Wi Fi or like,you know, traffic or even potentially have
(21:12):
someone trying to hack your system.
I mean, those are all different things to worryabout these days.
So if the standard around emergency systems,right?
The emergency responders, that's what you'regoing for.
Well, is it really that different of atechnology in comparison to the cellular
(21:32):
technologies?
You know, do they run side by side or or or isit really, really different?
They are different.
The network standards are different.
The types of radio networks are different.
You know, in in most first responder, like inin, you know, city environments, you know, they
will operate in the 700 or 800 megahertzfrequency range as, you know, two way radio.
(21:55):
On the cellular piece, you know, the mobileoperators, they have multiple frequency bands
they utilize ranging from 600 megahertz and allthe way up to, you know, the millimeter wave.
It's not something we deploy on these types ofsystems just because high frequency, it's our
systems are focused on basically everythingthat's sub six gigahertz.
So 600 up to, you know, 2,500 megahertz in inin most cases for the the carrier side.
(22:21):
And because they operate on higher frequencies,the antenna density is different in these in
building environments, right?
You know, higher frequency, the shorter thedistance that that signal is going to
propagate.
You know, lower frequency, let's go all the waydown to like VHF, UHF, and those first
responder places.
They penetrate and they travel much better.
So, the antenna density is less.
(22:42):
There are some codes now, some differentstandards that do allow converged systems where
you can have first responder networks on thecellular side of things.
But it's just it's a little tricky to designaround.
You'd mentioned the efficiencies, like leadlike a lead building,
right, like a building
that says lead certified.
Those tend to because of how they are beingbuilt specifically to be energy efficient,
(23:06):
those you find them at a higher proportionthat, like, hey, generally, you're gonna need
things if you're not sitting right next to aantenna.
Is that a
fair thing?
Absolutely.
Lead certified buildings, I mean, the the waythat they are built, they're they're great at
blocking radio frequencies and coming in.
That's why, you know, I always joke around thatthose are my favorite types of environments
because we can almost guarantee that thecoverage internal to the building is gonna be
(23:29):
terrible.
So, you know, that's, more of the low hangingfruit, I think, for us.
Yeah.
So then is that easier on the front end whenyou're working like, hey, with the GC or with
the developer, whoever it is, and saying like,we're gonna you're gonna have to do this.
Like, you know, 95% of the time, a leadbuilding is without question gonna cause this
problem.
So you wanna do this now because otherwise,it'll be three or four x the cost on the back
(23:53):
end if we have to rip out stuff and and redothe construction.
Yeah.
That's that's always our pitch, you know,educational process too and just helping
educate the the end customer that this is gonnabe a necessary item, especially if you want
that amazing experience for the the tenantswithin the building or guests that are coming
through.
So, you know, we do see it a little bit morenow in, you know, these current times that
(24:16):
building companies and the building owners,they are a little bit more in the know as to
how these things are working and that it mightbe a necessary item for them to consider.
So that's that's been helpful.
I I will say that with a luxury apartmentcomplex being built in the North Part of the
Valley, they've already started planning toinclude this type of infrastructure for
cellular in their new facility well in advanceof the completion.
(24:40):
So it's nice.
It's a nice thing to have, you know, at leastnow that people are becoming more used to this
and understand that there are productsavailable for that they are considering this in
advance.
Makes everyone's life a little bit easier.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, lead buildings obviously block signal, butthen you've got the everything else in between.
How does someone budget, right?
(25:01):
Because what you said is that not until thebuilding is pretty much complete, can you
actually tell whether or not you canessentially, someone's gonna need services such
as yourself to be able to go in and put inthese devices and put in the lines.
Right?
So that, know, the signal, whether it's theemergency signal, cell signal, all of the
above, right, where all these signals willactually propagate through the building.
(25:24):
So how does someone budget for something likethat?
Especially like, you know, owners and, youknow, building owners, let alone GCs, GC
doesn't even think about it, then that's a realproblem.
Yeah.
It's a good question.
You know, we've got a lot of historical datathat allows us to put together budgets based on
square footage.
And depending on building type, you know, thatgives us an idea of the density.
(25:46):
You know, in the first responder radio solutionspace, you know, it's common to see as low as
30¢ a square foot and maybe as high as, youknow, a dollar or a dollar 15 to a dollar 25 a
square foot depending on the frequencies thatneed to be deployed and the scale of the
deployment itself.
If we're looking at a full scale coveragesolution for the entire building, you know,
(26:08):
obviously your cost is going to be higher.
In a lot of cases though, you know, you don'tneed full building coverage for that system.
We just need to make sure that the coveragemeets the requirements set by the standards
for, you know, code requirements there.
So, it's typically, you know, negative 95, over95% of the facility.
You know, you could have half of the facilityalready having coverage from the outside
(26:30):
network, and they really only have
to do portion.
So, I'm
told that's just to put in the worst casescenario number on that.
And the same thing with cellular.
Cellular, we it's a little bit tricky if, youknow, we're not using, if we are using
something that is considered part 20, whichmeans it does not need to have a retransmission
agreement approved from carriers, you know,that can be partial coverage as well.
(26:55):
And those solutions are much lower cost.
I mean, down to, you know, 50¢ a square footdepending on density and upwards of $2 a square
foot.
Or in the larger systems, you know, the fullblown neutral host systems where we've got all
three of the main carriers and operatorsfeeding into this neutral system throughout the
entire building.
(27:15):
Now those those have to meet specific designcriteria that's in place by each carrier.
Because if you think about this, the carriersonly operate in that spectrum.
So if you only cover part of the building andit's not up to their standard, the user's gonna
walk in.
They're not gonna know that there's a system inplace that some some integrator like us had
(27:37):
deployed.
You know, they're just gonna assume thatVerizon T Mobile or AT and T is terrible in the
area and could result in them switching toanother provider.
So because of that, we have to meet thesespecific standards and ensure that, you know,
the end user, the, you know, general public isgonna walk in.
They're gonna have five bars coveragethroughout the facility.
And the transition as they walk in and out ofthose buildings, hands off properly between the
(27:59):
networks.
So, you know, with that and those densenetworks, I mean, the cost is gonna be
significantly higher.
Usually, a dollar to upwards of $6 a squarefoot depending on the network type.
It you can see there's a a pretty wide rangethere.
So if you're looking at a 200,000 square footfacility, it could be up around $200,000 or,
(28:20):
you know, six times that.
Just
more out of curiosity, is it the FCC that'sdictating this?
Or is it the actual carriers that's
It's the carriers.
Yeah.
The carriers have their design criteria that wehave to meet.
So us, as a vendor that works directly withVerizon T Mobile, AT and T, DISH, you know, we
know those standards.
(28:40):
That's kind of the, the baseline for how we putour designs together for new solutions that we
present to the customers, guaranteeing thatthey're gonna have that user experience that
expect.
Okay.
So, this isn't so it really is around thosethose carriers.
Is there any
reason Right.
Yeah.
They operate that spectrum and they they, youknow, their expectation is if there is
(29:02):
something there broadcasting their,technologies and their their spectrum and
frequencies, you know, they want it to be, youknow, cottonnotch, great performing solution.
So it's understandable.
So, I also imagine that there's probably
some fire code around all of this.
I'm on the cellular side.
So, really, the fire code, it really onlyapplies to the first responder network side of
(29:26):
things.
But there's a design standard there as well.
You know, we just have to ensure that adequatesignal strength throughout the facility is met
and specifically to emergency areas.
Right?
So stairwells, pump rooms, you know, anywherethat's gonna be in use by first responders in
the events of those emergencies.
K.
Totally makes sense.
Code wise, I have to imagine everyjurisdiction's different.
(29:51):
Different state, different jurisdiction,different city, maybe even different.
Is that I feel like if you're doing nationwidework or you're not just in the valley here,
that could, one, get complicated, but then alsothere's gotta be some that are like, oh, man.
The level of this is very low compared tosomewhere else, which is extraordinarily high.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's it's definitely achallenge across the country.
(30:12):
It varies depending on, you know, county, city,you know.
Everyone everyone interprets code differently.
And and the AHJ, the authority havingjurisdictions, you know, maybe they're having a
bad day and they want everything in conduit orthey want two hour rated coax cable used
throughout an entire facility.
Those those items have a huge impact on thecost to the customer as well because, you know,
(30:35):
the standard half inch cable, half inch cable,you know, a couple dollars a foot or $3 a foot
at worst.
But the two hour rated half inch cable, $75 afoot.
So you can see where the cost could climb veryquick.
And it's it's always tricky to really know whatcode is going to be in a given area.
(30:57):
Luckily, we've got resources like the SaferBuildings Coalition, a group that we are we
work work very closely with, and they do agreat job at keeping track of what code is
being enforced in what jurisdiction.
So it's a, you know, it's a good referencepoint, and they're they're actually very
helpful to all the integrators within, youknow, this space.
(31:18):
They they want to have they want everything towork right because it's important at the end of
the day to ensuring that our first respondersare have the connection and ability to
communicate that that they need to havesituations.
So an organization like the Safer BuildingCoalition, is that just like, hey.
There's just an informative organization, or isthat like something you partner up with?
(31:39):
There's a cost associated with membership forfor integrators and companies like us, but, you
know, they they actually travel around The USdoing a lot of informative sessions and get
togethers with local jurisdictions, highereducation, k to 12, you know, they'll they'll
support and help everyone and anyone really inin any case possible.
(32:00):
Their end goal is is communication and thatnetwork connectivity and just ensuring that
people are safe.
Then a good proponent in the cellular space aswell.
But just like I said earlier, most emergencycalls are they originate from a mobile device.
Not a lot of landlines in use anymore.
They throw a rotary phone in front of someonethat's under 30.
(32:20):
They're probably not even know how to use thateither.
So
It's very strange.
Rotary phone?
Yes.
There's there's no touch screen on here.
Yes.
No.
There's not.
Yeah.
So code wise, like, who is most strict?
Are you able to talk about, like, take thisarea, if you're trying to build a building, you
(32:41):
are going to need, no question, there is it'sso strict that, like, yeah, the the code is
just over not necessarily overbearing.
I don't wanna put it that way.
But, like, it is over the top compared to theaverage for the rest of the country.
Yeah.
You know, in most big cities, you're gonna seea lot of attention put into the this these
solutions, especially on the first responderside.
Phoenix is pretty strict.
(33:02):
I'll I'll I'll tell you that.
I've worked with the Phoenix Fire Group for anumber of years, and sometimes we don't get
along.
But, you know, it is what it is.
California has got some pretty strictjurisdictions.
Florida is actually very, very strict as well,and and, you know, very quick to enforce code.
You know, the thing is too, it's it's can meanlife or death.
And so having that level of attention to this,it's necessary.
(33:27):
Yeah.
It that's that makes sense.
Bigger city, just denser populations.
It also probably if yeah.
You're the expert at this, but, like, more orless people in an area, generally, you have
more or less frequencies flying around or lessradio disturbance?
Or is that no.
That's not true at all.
(33:48):
You know, it it depends.
It's luckily, there's, you know, with each ofthese systems that are out there, there are
folks monitoring the radio network.
You know, local to Phoenix, the group thatmanages the the first responder radio network
here is a regional wireless co op.
And they're a bunch of, you know, engineers andradio guys.
They they, you know, they're constantlymonitoring and and checking the health of their
(34:08):
systems.
But there are there's potential forinterference.
There always is, especially when you look atinto the radio frequency side of things.
That attention to the network is asked out too.
Like, on the carrier side, you know, there's abuilding full of engineers that are constantly
monitoring the KPIs or key performanceindicators of systems and the health of the
networks to ensure that there's not all aboutsore network outages.
(34:32):
That's the same thing on the first responderside.
Okay.
Makes sense.
Totally.
Just because, of our current administration,and I'm trying not to be political here for a
second, there have been some mandates aroundstricter enforcement, around security.
Have those mandates somehow especially becauseof first responder networks, but have those
(34:55):
mandates somehow carried down to essentially anaffecting an effect affecting what you guys are
doing?
Not yet.
You know, we have seen I mean, on the cellularside, those networks are very secure.
It's an encrypted network.
It's there's not a whole lot you can do tobreak into it unless you get in through the
actual switch side of things and the thenetwork itself.
(35:17):
You're not gonna break into it over the air.
On the first responder side, slightly differenttechnology, but it's not easy to, know, same
thing, to break into it and and harm thenetwork from, from the ground away from the the
towers or the radio itself.
Sure, you could probably listen in if you'vegot the right equipment, but it's the impact of
the network is gonna be pretty minimal.
(35:39):
Signal jam jammers or blockers are probably thebiggest risk to the network health.
But, you know, those are mostly illegal, kindahard to get.
Outside of that, we've seen we've seen a littlebit more movement approvals for new spectrum
or, you know, that's something that are relatedto some of the technology updates and ads that
(35:59):
carriers wanna deal with this administration.
And that's really it, though.
Nothing else that's harming us.
If anything, there's been a benefit to ourindustry, specifically the integrators, because
of some of the actions that the FCC has takenin their meetings and partnerships with groups
(36:19):
like NAEP, which is a National Association ofTower Directors, they work on behalf of
companies like us to help in this, you know,ever changing environment.
So that, you know, on the carrier space, in theconstruction side, those customers know the
cost of these systems.
They know exactly how much it costs for atower, what the typical cost is going to be for
(36:41):
an indoor coverage solution.
And they've kinda used that against us over theyears.
You know, they they continue to drive ourprices down while the cost of goods and cost of
living continues to go up.
And so with, you know, our friends in theindustry like Bates and Safer Buildings, you
know, with them supporting some of theseefforts with the FCC, it's actually made things
(37:01):
better for companies like us.
Okay.
So,
that makes sense.
Essentially, unless you have physical access.
So, when you say switches, you're talking aboutactual physical access to where sort of the
cables because wireless isn't truly wireless.
There's cable that's run run under tons
of cable.
There's fiber.
Almost every every cell cell tower and cellsite has fiber onto it.
(37:26):
You've got a multi gig circuits to supportthroughput and the bandwidth that the end users
need.
Yeah.
Your wireless is only wireless for a littlebit.
Something something else, that I was thinkingabout, safety has to look a little different.
Right?
You have safety when it comes to, like, yoursteel structures.
(37:46):
Right?
What does safety look like, when you're aroundthese wireless, you know, essentially these are
wireless devices that are emitting frequency.
Is it any different?
No.
You know, there's there's a lot of differentthings that we have to take into account,
especially with working near live cell sites orlive radio towers, you know, safety network or
(38:06):
even the old broadcast towers.
You'll feel it if you're if you're too closefor too long on an app at site.
I mean, that is energy that's being emitted.
You know, typical signs of overexposure toradio frequency, you know, you start sweating,
you feel novice, get dizzy.
So it's definitely not somewhere you wanna hangout.
But in most cases, you know, if we are workingon live sites, we'll we'll usually do
(38:30):
maintenance within a maintenance window.
So overnight when the traffic is lowest andthere's the least amount of users, And we
coordinate those downtimes with whoever theoperator is for that area.
When it comes to the actual build side ofthings, you know, we have a number of policies
in place.
We have regular training for all of ouremployees.
(38:52):
And we require the same standards withsubcontractor partners that we use because it
is dangerous.
The radio towers themselves, you know, theyneed to eat some in the more rural areas, they
could be, you know, up some feet tall.
It could be a thousand foot tall bag of wirepower.
And it's a lot of climbing.
You know, there's a lot of risk with thosetypes of those work environments.
(39:12):
You know, ensuring that our climbers are a 100tie off all the time so that there's always
connection to something physical.
There's an unfortunate event where they slip,but they're still attached.
Right?
They might bang their head a little bit, butthey're not falling all the way to the ground.
Even the indoor environments, you know, weoperate and work a lot on scissor lifts and
ladders and scaffolding.
(39:32):
Some instances, we're up in the catwalk areas.
You know, we've got a project coming up atArena here in the downtown area of Phoenix.
But, you know, we're installing a bunch ofradios and antennas on the catwalk area in
these elevated spaces.
So, you know, there's a risk of if somethingfall, drop something, trip and fall yourself.
I mean, there's it's very important for us.
(39:53):
Safety is a very important item that we takevery seriously here.
Just we wanna make sure everyone is making ithome at the end of the day to their family and
and also enjoying the things that they do andnot, you know, not having these major risks or
potential hazards that could come.
A little different.
There's a name for that.
Is that is that radiate radiation sickness?
Is that what that is?
I mean, yeah.
(40:14):
Kind of.
It's non ionizing radiation, but so it's on theon the cellular side and the first responder
network side.
But it's still it's doesn't feel good.
I remember when I was much younger working inthe test bed area with one of our carrier
partners.
I was testing some amplifiers that we weredeploying in the network prior to launching
(40:35):
three g.
So this is a while ago.
I was working with another technician and justcalibrating some equipment.
I had it attached to a small antenna just, youknow, at this amplifier, a signal generator
running through some other calibration going toan antenna.
And I forgot I left it on.
I'm standing there, and we're having aconversation.
And after, you know, five minutes, I'm justsweating bullets.
(40:59):
And I'm like, yeah, feel good.
And the the other person I was with lookedover, he goes, did you leave that thing on?
I was like, oh, man.
Sorry.
You know, so I ran over the button.
And then, you know, it it passed a few minuteslater.
Yes.
That it's not hot.
Oh, okay.
Well, you know, it's basically frying yourinsides out.
(41:20):
It's like a microwave.
Yeah.
That's the other example I was gonna use.
You know, how do you think your food's heatingup in there?
Radio waves.
You could have become a superhero, like RadioMan or something.
It'd have been cool.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, I I was thinking about this for alittle bit.
Is it the same because of the different typesof networks, the different types of
(41:43):
frequencies?
Can you put everything on the same location?
Meaning, your different antennas, right, forlike, if you have a really large coverage.
I know that there's a problem there's someproblems because of the different frequency
ranges.
Can everything be put into the same box and itjust works?
Or you have to design things differentlybecause of the different frequency ranges?
(42:05):
We do have to design different we have todesign around those, the different frequency we
have deployed.
So on an indoor environment, you know, we wehave shared infrastructure, but we'll have
like, let's say, we're using a traditionaldistributed antenna system where we've got the
amplifier in the closet and then coax andsplitters and antennas out into the serving
(42:27):
areas.
Well, those the coax and that sharedinfrastructure can support frequencies up to
6,000 megahertz or six gigahertz.
Actual active equipment though, like theamplifiers themselves, those are all band
specific.
So, there'll be an individual amplifier withinthe box for 700 megahertz or eight fifty or
(42:49):
1,900.
But then once those are all combined, they canshare the a common pathway.
In the tower side of things, it's a little bitdifferent, but it's it's also the same.
You have amplifiers.
You've got the radios.
Those actual components that generate a signalthat your phone sees.
And in most cases now, those are amplifiers aremounted at the back of the antenna or there
(43:14):
could be smart antennas.
But each one, the active components, those areall separate.
But, know, if you if you drive by a tower andyou look up, you're gonna see a set of
antennas.
They're all the technologies are gonna bebigger antennas will be lower frequency,
smaller antennas will be higher frequency.
Okay.
Well, thank you for, you know, clarifying thatfor me.
(43:34):
Yeah.
And in some cases too,
you'll you'll drive by or if you're looking atthe, the existing outdoor network, you'll
notice that there might be multiple sets ofantennas at different different types of power.
Well, it's just another carrier or provider.
There's, you know, also shared infrastructurein that environment.
They'll have different backhaul circuits comingin because they all connect to their own switch
(43:55):
network.
Data and calls are processed.
But, you know, they're looking up at the tower,they'll just another set of antennas.
And the reason why they can do that, you know,each operator, whether it's public safety side
of things or the carrier, mobile networks, theyall have their own licensed spectrum that they
use, and then they don't really overlap.
Right?
So they've got chunks of different frequenciesthat belong to them that they can operate in
(44:19):
different markets, and there's no real sharingbetween either of them.
So I wanna switch to the technology side for,for a second.
Do you guys use any specific technologies?
No?
Help you guys work?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course.
On the design side, you know, it's kind of aindustry standard.
We use a platform called IBWave.
That's really the the gold standard across theboard for in building coverage solutions and
(44:44):
design.
In the outdoor side of things, there's there'stwo different tools.
ATOL is very popular for the the towerpropagation side of things.
You know, we all we use very specific equipmentfor our testing and deployment as well.
High precision has to be calibrated on a, youknow, pretty regular basis, I'd say, every year
or two years just to maintain, you know, goodtest results and ensure that the data we're
(45:09):
providing actually is accurate data.
But, yeah, it's it's it's definitely anexpensive business to be in because the cost of
equipment is it sits up there.
Some of our our scanners that we use to go outand collect data, I mean, they're 30,000,
$50,000 a piece.
Woah.
Yeah.
That's and so, you know, someone says, oops, Idropped it.
It's like panic mode.
(45:30):
Boy.
Yeah.
And then, you know, we have to have multipledevices like that too because we've got several
employees that are out doing testing in in, youknow, any given time any any week too.
And it could be one side of the country or orcould be local.
We don't know.
So we have to have multiple sets of equipment.
In addition to that, we have to havespecialized test phones that have very
(45:52):
expensive software.
I mean, most you'll get, like, an iPhone oryour Samsung Galaxy.
In retail price on something like that, it'd bea thousand bucks or $1,500 if you're buying it
direct.
The phones that we have, in addition to that,we have a software that's uploaded and it's
licensed that's, you know, 10 to $15,000 perdevice.
(46:13):
We have to have a device for every provider,and sometimes we have to have multiple devices
to to run the amount of tests that we need insome of these larger facilities.
So, you could literally just on a a job, youcould literally have, you know, a 150 to
quarter million dollars worth of equipment justto go testing.
Oh, Holy boy.
And, you know, not just the equipment, like thesoftware is expensive.
(46:36):
Know, the design software, we only have we'reassigned a certain amount of licenses based on
what we pay for.
They have active users logged into the thesoftware to do these design tasks.
And it's, you know, it's annual fees.
I mean, we're we're looking at depending onbusiness size and use as low as $30,000, but
(46:56):
usually over a $100,000 a year in licensingfees.
Jeez.
Oh,
man.
Yeah.
And then I
might I might as well ask them the obviousquestion.
What learning lessons or what do you wish youhad known when you were when you were
implementing new technologies?
That's a great question, man.
I I definitely, made plenty of mistakes overthe years and I we're probably still paying for
(47:17):
a couple of them.
This that makes me think that, competitionwise, you gotta be a more I'm gonna say this in
a nice way.
A real player just simply because, like, justto get that equipment to be able to utilize,
it'd be probably hard for me to start one ofthese in my
spare bedroom is my guess.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's definitely an expensiveand costly industry to be in.
(47:39):
It's it's very specialized.
You know, we've got a a good number ofcompetitors in this space.
Some much larger than us, some that are smallerthan us.
And, but there are some some good guys outthere.
You know, we definitely cross paths a lot.
But you gotta play nice in the sandbox because,you know, business is business, but and you
never know who's gonna end up working with youor who you might end up working for if, you
(48:01):
know, things change in your career path downthe way.
So it's good to be nice in the industry, but
It's one of the weird spaces where, you know,today today, you're my competitor.
Tomorrow, I have to be friends with you.
Yeah.
It's you know, and I'm partnering with you onsome large project so you get you know, so that
everyone can get a piece of the pie.
(48:22):
This is one of the weird places in the industrywhere you have to play nice with the sandbox.
Yeah.
It's it's funky.
You know, some we've had I've seen this happenover the years too where one of our competitors
will start working for one of our carrierpartners or for a third party operator.
And when say third party operator, this companyis like Crown Castle or Boingo.
Boingo is a pretty well known name because youcan go into an airport, most of the time the Wi
(48:45):
Fi is hosted by Boingo.
They also provide networks and infrastructurefrom the carrier groups to attach to easily
large stadiums.
But it's yeah.
You never know what you're gonna what's gonnahappen or what you're run into.
Makes sense.
Just because this is a topic that keeps poppingup, might as well ask.
(49:06):
AI.
What are you guys found in terms of AI?
Is it usable?
Have you started finding applications for it?
Applicability for it?
Have you started integrating it?
Where are you guys at on your AI journey?
Yeah.
I know we I think across the company, weeveryone's using AI on a daily basis.
Whether it's increasing some of theefficiencies for finding documents or
(49:29):
troubleshooting guides or equipment informationwithin our database or even just down to, like,
predictive analysis for monitoring on the thesites that we have deployed with our customer
sites.
Those are probably the most common areas thatwe're seeing and using it right now.
On the carrier side, I've been told, thatthey're starting to implement AI everywhere.
(49:55):
Their network planning and the monitoring oftheir networks, the optimization of their
networks, it's it's gonna probably startreplacing a few people here and there or even,
you know, in the come the years to come.
But it's it's definitely there.
We see it, yeah, daily right now.
Okay.
Justin, I think it's that time.
Yeah.
I think you're right.
(50:15):
John, we like to ask this question to all ofour guests.
So if you could go back twenty years, whatadvice would you give yourselves?
02/2005.
Ugh.
Were you at the were you at the mall at thispoint slanging cell phones?
Is that where you were at in 02/2005?
I I think I just left that and I was I wasworking at Radio Shack.
(50:36):
Oh, radio?
Man, you really you love radio.
Like, is shit.
You and I have more in common than you realize.
I worked at a Radio Shack.
Maybe not at two thousand five, but I've workedat a Radio Shack.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I'd probably forced myself to expanding oursales group earlier, know, to working in the
(50:57):
the space that's not funded by the carrierfolks and then just try to educate more people
about what we do earlier in my career.
Good lesson.
Yeah.
You know, it's the best I can do.
Either that or just buy more lottery tickets.
Back to the future.
Yeah.
The back to the future.
Bring back the, sports almanac and and just letit ride.
(51:19):
Yeah.
Cool.
So, this has been fun, but how could people getahold of you if that was or how could people
get ahold of you?
What's the best way for them to do that?
Email.
I mean, email my phone out there, but, youknow, the the amount of spam calls I get now,
it's hard to even look at it and wanna answerit.
Okay.
But, yeah, my through our website also, youknow, we've got a contact us, page on the
(51:40):
website.
My personal email for the company is justfirstname.lastname@engineeringwirelessservices.
Okay.
Yeah.
I will I will put that in the show notes.
And then is there anything else you'd like totell the people before we say our goodbyes?
No.
Just there's a solution.
Alright?
That it's not that you don't have to deal andsuffer through poor cellular phone coverage.
(52:05):
You don't have to you don't have to live thatnightmare of drop calls and not being able to
have connect connectivity to people.
There is a solution there.
Cool.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Alright.
This has been a ton of fun.
And listeners, until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
(52:28):
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(52:53):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
It's a great way to build sales skill.
And what I mean by sales skill is just gettingtold no all the time.
All the time.
Yeah.
Mean, I was that's that was like the one wordthat I knew better than anything.
You know, in that type of environment, yougotta be quick.
You gotta think fast.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
(00:20):
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Forret.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:41):
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So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is Building scale.
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Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
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business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Today's guest is John Shaliga, chief salesofficer at Engineering Wireless Services or EWS
(01:28):
and chief revenue officer at Amplify Q.
With nearly twenty years of telecommunicationsexperience, John has built a career around
expanding wireless connectivity in some of themost challenging environments.
He started his career in 2007 as a fieldtechnician and quickly rose through the ranks,
helping to build AWS's business developmentengine from the ground up.
Today, John leads nationwide sales strategy,large scale developments, and partnerships with
(01:53):
Fortune 500 companies, health care systems, andpublic agencies.
At AmplifyQ, he is spearheading the growth ofthe neutral host signal source services, which
is hell of a mouthful, John.
I'm just gonna tell you that right now.
Delivering private LTE four g and five g inbuildings where traditional carrier models fall
short.
AWS is a national systems integratorspecializing in DOS, public safety
(02:17):
communications, and private cellular networks,keeping hospitals, airports, stadiums, and
government buildings connected.
And with all that said, John, welcome to theshow.
Hey.
Thanks.
Yes.
So that is a mouthful.
What the hell does that mean?
That's my first question.
Question one.
Before I even ask about the business or you inyour story, I'd like to know what Neutral Host
Signal Source services are.
(02:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, you know, in in our space, in the wirelesstelecommunications space, there's different
types of infrastructure and systems that can bedeployed.
They're dedicated for a single provider, likejust AT and T, just T Mobile, just Verizon, or
just emergency responder radio coverage.
And then there's the neutral host systems,which are, you know, essentially a neutral
(02:59):
platform for all providers to be integrated andprovide service into any type of facility.
Okay.
That makes sense to me.
It just sounds like a mouthful.
It's actually
It is a mouthful.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Alright.
So tell us about your your story.
So, obviously, about twenty years ago orgetting close to that, going into the industry,
starting as a field technician.
(03:20):
But tell us the real story and then tell usabout, EWS.
Yeah.
So I, started in 2007 with EWS.
Position, it was an entry level, RF engineer,radio frequency engineer with T Mobile.
So I I got a lot of opportunity to to reallysee the inner workings of the network side of
things.
(03:40):
But, you know, starting as a contractor, youknow, contracts only last for so long.
And at the end of my contract, I ended up justhaving to be a little more creative.
I started working in the field, supporting newsite development and deployment for T Mobile
specifically, prepping the equipment that is atthe tower.
So the the base stations and the radios thatwould be on the ground power, antenna systems,
(04:04):
you know, just getting everything ready for thecontractors that would do the build outs and
installations, you know, and work my way aroundthat.
They got to learn a lot in that that scenariobecause it was all hands on.
So I got to see the equipment.
I have to feel it, touch it, program it,understand how it worked, which gave me a good
base knowledge base for how it works, how doesthis happen.
(04:25):
But this is where five bars of signal comesfrom.
It comes from these devices.
It was it was a really neat opportunity.
You know, working in in the Valley in PhoenixValley for through the summers, it's not very
fun.
Not at outside.
Yeah.
And the way that the the way that planning workon the carrier side, it's like, we're, you
know, we're gonna build everything in Phoenixin the summer at the hottest time.
(04:47):
And then, you know what?
We're gonna do all the rest of the builds northin the winter.
So it's either you're burning up or you'refreezing.
And, you know, it was it was tough to get usedto that.
So I had a couple more opportunities come up,and there were requests for in building
coverage and distributed antenna systems.
So I thought to myself, why would I wanna workoutside and I can work in this climate
(05:09):
controlled environment and not have to worryabout anything.
So transitioned pretty quick into that space,into the the desk space and the in building
coverage space.
And, you know, I I really enjoyed it.
Every building is different.
Every facility is different.
So it wasn't just, you know, doing the samething every day.
You have to see a lot of really interestingplaces, high security environments.
(05:32):
So, you know, that was just it was neat.
But over time, you know, we started to slowdown in the opportunities that were coming in
from our carrier partners.
It's, common cycles that take place where thework slows down.
So and working with my my boss, the owner ofthe company, you know, we were strategizing and
said, you know what?
(05:52):
We don't have dedicated sales group.
We don't have anyone that's focused on sales.
And so that was really the birth of the salesdivision and business development division
within our company a little over ten years agonow.
You know, that's that's been fun.
I've been doing this now for you know, with thesame company almost nineteen years in January.
(06:12):
So, you know, I I just really enjoyed it.
I love getting to travel around to ourdifferent customers and educate people and help
them understand, you know, what it is we do,why we do it, why they need these types of
systems and solutions in their buildings.
And, you know, just the, you know, building thevalue behind those those types of deployments.
So, you know, when I hear like in the fieldworking, understanding the tech component and
(06:38):
then sales, the other side, those usually arenot the same brain generally.
You know, it's crossover.
So how did one, were you more like, I am moresales y branded or am I more engineering y
branded?
Or was it like, no.
I just you got both sides and then thetransition became easy, you know, not that
sales is easy, but, like, it was an easiertransition.
(06:59):
Yeah.
You know, I think having a technicalunderstanding of what we were, you know,
providing or at least proposing to our ourpotential customer and clients, I think it
helped a lot.
A lot of the people that we deal with, they'rethey're technical in nature, you know, a of IT
folks, so they understand network architectureand the infrastructure.
I think that was, you know, a a big bonus thatI have working in my favor.
(07:20):
For working in at engineering where I was atAWS, you know, my younger years, I I did, you
know, some of the same stuff that remember thatsince I was a waiter in a restaurant, you know,
bartended a little bit.
I actually was one of those extremely annoyingpeople in the mall that sold phones at a kiosk.
Like, you know?
Yeah.
It's a great way to build sales skill.
(07:41):
And what I mean by sales skill is just gettingtold no all the time.
All the time.
Yeah.
I mean, was that's that was like the one wordthat I knew better than anything.
You know, in that type of environment, you hadto be quick.
You had to think fast.
You had to find find a way to grab someone'sattention to keep them interested in order to
build this rapport in a very short period oftime.
So I think that helped a lot.
(08:02):
At one point, I was also a used car salesman.
Wow.
Okay.
Those are the
yeah.
But the best but the best in this scenario,Will.
Of course.
I was, in line with, you know, how people feelabout, you know, lawyer.
Right?
You're like, oh, the scum of the earth overthere.
You know, it worked.
(08:23):
Yeah.
But that those skill sets, right, in both thosescenarios do propel you to do something much
larger and much more impactful.
Right?
Like, when you think of the built world and,like, how important these systems are to have
in these major large, you know, huge buildings,it's like, yeah, having those no's to every
person that walked past you at the mall washelpful.
And then getting, you know, an a no or, youknow, blown off response from whomever you're
(08:47):
working with at the client base because it canbe extraordinarily discouraging, certainly.
But once you get through that, yeah, I'm just,you know, I'm just good 20% of the time.
I'm probably average or above average, then,you know, rock and roll.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting too is most peopledon't realize that there is infrastructure and
these these solutions in place in a lot of thevenues they visit.
(09:08):
Every major stadium, every, you know, large,like, college campus, they all have
architecture.
This wireless infrastructure is there.
And to put it into more into perspective, youknow, wireless phones, you know, like your your
cell phone, I mean, really that wireless piece,it's only really wireless for maybe a quarter
of a mile in most most instances, unless you'rein a rural environment, where there's, you
(09:30):
know, a very tall tower that's that's coveringlarge space.
Now the carrier network in those towers,they're they're not very tall, especially in in
dense city environments.
You know, they're 60 feet tall, 80 feet tall.
And they're they're only able to support somany users.
So then when you take that thought process andyou look at the large stadiums, like State Farm
Stadium as an example, one that we revamped forthis last Super Bowl that was here.
(09:53):
There's over almost 2,000 antennas in thatfacility for just cellular phone coverage
alone.
It's a it's a big undertaking and a lot of theactual necessary infrastructure is there, tons
of fiber, lots of coax, lots of antennas,amplifiers.
You know, they're big build outs.
Yeah.
That's, I was actually just there this pastweekend and had no issue with the coverage.
(10:14):
So that's some feedback for you and the team.
Were you still good?
Yeah.
Thank you.
So let's, let's talk about that idea though,like selling this thing that people don't know
about.
Right?
That's how it like, we we when we're talkingabout infrastructure, cybersecurity is easier
for us.
People generally have a understanding theywanna be protected.
Infrastructure in in their business though isthis thing that's, like, elusive.
It they don't they don't get it, and there's alot of education that has to go to it.
(10:37):
So what does the sales process look like foryou?
Is it educational, or what what has to be doneto, like, sell a thing that most people don't
understand or don't know about?
Yeah.
Most of them I mean, there's a lot of upfronteducation that takes place with how we present
to the potential customer.
You know, we get lucky sometimes, and we'llwe'll run across a group that is familiar with
these these systems.
(10:57):
They've seen them in the past where they've hadinteractions with, you know, one of the
wireless providers.
Years ago, it was very common for businesses tohave large group accounts of, like, so maybe a
large account for Verizon, where they'd have athousand phones.
As part of those agreements, that carrier wouldprovide infrastructure within those buildings
so that the users would have five bars ofcoverage throughout because they they have to
(11:20):
and, you know, have that positive userexperience to keep users from transitioning to
another provider.
So, there is some familiarity there with largercorporations.
But, you know, in a lot of instances, you'llsee, a group or a facility that does have
issues.
They'll recognize like, oh, man, I've gotreally terrible coverage here.
Staff has been pointing that there's call dropsor, you their data throughput is terrible and
(11:43):
they don't want to connect to the Wi Fi.
Well, luckily, you know, with modern technologyand things like Google, you know, most people
go in and type their issue up and they'll allof a sudden have these suggestions for types of
infrastructure solutions that could fix this.
Other groups, you know, that may be savvy onthe IT side, but don't really know what they're
looking for, they'll reach out to, let's say,like a distribution partner that they buy cable
(12:07):
from.
And those guys will typically know thesolutions and products and vendors like us that
that can support these.
Got it.
Okay.
And how do you find or how do you vet out agood salesperson?
Have you oversees sales across the country?
How do you find those people?
Sales, people can be elusive to find the rightones.
(12:27):
So how's that work?
It's a dice role, you know.
I mean, I've I've been pretty fortunate.
A few of the few of the members on the teamright now are people that I've met over the
years.
One was actually a part of the constructionteam.
Here, he'd managed the operations andconstruction for our company with the build
outs with Verizon's mobile and AT and So he,for one, knew a lot of the contacts that we
(12:50):
had, and two, understood what we were, youknow, proposing and and selling to this this
space.
Person that I have appointed as the nationaldirector for the team, he's actually out of
Atlanta.
I found him through a distribution partner.
One of the companies that we buy product from,you know, cable, antennas, and and these parts
and pieces.
And, you know, we hit it off.
(13:10):
Really cool guy, great personality, just realfast thinking and quick talking sales guy.
And, he's been with on the team now for alittle over six years.
He's, you know, great add to the team.
You know, it's just we get lucky sometimes.
Most of the people have industry experiencethat I find.
And then from there, it's do they sell?
You know?
And sometimes it works out, sometimes itdoesn't, and then you just kinda roll the
(13:34):
punches.
Right?
When you're overseeing, you know, obviously,you gotta hold people accountable.
What does that look like in like, do you have aliterally scorecard, or is it like, hey.
Here's your quota for the quarter, or here'syour quota for the year, whatever, however you
wanna, you know, put a timeline on it.
And it's like, you either hit or you don't, andthen that's it.
Yeah.
It's kinda how it works.
I mean, we we set quarterly expectations,targets for each salesperson to hit.
(13:58):
And each each person is actually assignedspecific verticals to focus on as well, you
know, either like health care, hospitality,public venues, government type work, utility
work.
And so there's you know, they've got thosespecific target areas, and they do all have
quarterly expectations.
You know, if you you missed a quarter, youknow, that kind of thing happens.
(14:20):
Right?
But if you if you miss all year long, you'reprobably gonna be looking for a job somewhere
else.
And then sales, the way that
we have it set up, and I think it's reallysimilar across the board of other companies,
is, you know, it's commission driven.
Right?
So, there's incentive to sell more.
Everyone wants to make more money.
Well, if it takes that long to figure it out,obviously, are you looking for someone that
(14:44):
has, quote unquote, book of business sort ofprior relationships?
Yeah.
You know, it helps.
It definitely helps a lot.
We've I have hired people in the past based onthings like that, you know, their experience,
just the circles they run-in, the groups thatthey know, and and things that I've seen them
do in the past.
But it's not a deal breaker if you don'talready have it's not it's really just about
(15:04):
your personality too and being, forwardthinking and having that drive to really just
go out and chase things down.
Do you have any do you have any litmus tests?
Not really.
No?
You know, I'm I'm kinda goofy when it comes tointerviewing people and and and see trying to
get a feel for them.
I ask dumb questions and they're gonna be like,where do your favorite favorite french fries
(15:24):
come from?
Are you a McDonald's guy or a Burger King guy?
You know?
And that's depending on how they respond, ifit's quick, if they have have an immediate
answer, if they just, you know, bulk shutdown,that could be a deciding factor for me because,
you know, you gotta think fast.
But, you know, aside from that, I tried tobuild up a little bit of a relationship prior
to even interviewing someone.
Got a good feel about someone, you know, alsobeen six months off and on, just kinda feeling
(15:49):
it out.
And, you know, things still look good and whatthey do throughout the course of that time
prior to even an interview, you know, thatkinda helps me at least make a decision.
Now that's interesting to take it in adirection that has that's very off the wall,
essentially.
Also, anybody listening, the actual answer tothat is definitely Arby's curly fries.
Everybody knows that.
(16:09):
That's pretty straightforward.
But nonetheless so what you know?
Yeah.
How how are how are you diving into the theseclients?
Like, what what what does that what does thatlook like?
Are you it's just relationships that are builtover time?
Is it, like, you're running ads?
Are you like, what like, how how are youdriving more and more to it?
Because, obviously, as you go from local tonational and going bigger and bigger and
(16:29):
obviously doing massive facilities, there'sthere are only so many massive facilities.
Your demographic is smaller than like, hey, wedo houses.
Then it's like, oh,
well.
Right.
You have endless the supply is endless.
So you have to be really specific about the howwe're attacking it.
What does that look like?
Yeah.
So, you know, we're in the Phoenix Valley, forinstance.
We're kinda lucky.
(16:50):
There's lot of low hanging fruit.
And with new construction, new buildings goingup, a lot of those will have requirements based
on fire code to have a system put in place forthe emergency responder radio coverage.
You know, it's a necessary item.
But so, depending on the jurisdiction and whothe AHJ is, which stands for authority having
(17:12):
jurisdiction, know, it's a fire marshal orwhoever it may be, you know, they'll dictate
and require coverage solutions specific to, youknow, policing fire facilities, let's say, over
30,000 square feet or over 50,000 square feet,or if they have underground parking, which, you
know, once you go underground, signal's notreally gonna get down there.
(17:33):
So those ones are kinda easy for us to goafter.
But the piece that's not really includedbecause it's not a code requirement is the
cellular side.
So that that's a little bit of a harder sell.
And, you know, there's a cost associated withit.
Most companies that are planning for structureor new construction don't plan for that cost.
So it's, it's usually an after the fact.
(17:54):
But, you know, the it's in my opinion, it'seasier to deal with it in the beginning and,
you know, ask for the extra money instead ofdoing it after construction is complete because
we're, you know, we're gonna go on there and beup in the ceilings.
We might have to, you know, break into a hardlit area and then do patch and paint
afterwards.
The cost for installation and construction ofthat system goes up significantly in
(18:16):
a in a finished building.
You know, if we're
good enough at selling, right, and convincing,we can we can get them in in the beginning,
but, you know, it's hit or not.
Got it.
So is that something you find often wherepeople are not people, companies, they build
whatever the structure is.
And then then, like, the fire marshal orauthority comes in and says, hey.
(18:36):
This won't work.
You need to go use somebody like John to tomake
Yeah.
Adverse and the, you know We're always kind ofthe bad guy, I guess, you know, because it's
it's not really it's really not until theeleventh hour that we can, you know, say
confidently that, yes, you do need this system.
Some buildings, you know, the new constructionmight be close to a serving site for the radio
(18:58):
signal that police and fire use and boom, youknow, they're gonna have coverage throughout
the facility.
No no system needed.
Others, you know, with this the new types ofconstruction and the, you know, the I had to
think of terminology.
Of course, when I'm on camera, I forget thesethings.
It's okay.
The it's like the camera's not there.
That's this is how I live my life, but I ampretty sure I I'm always on camera.
(19:19):
Yeah.
And and so, like, new energy efficient typebuildings, right, where you've got the coated
glass and and things like that, those blocksignal really well.
I love that stuff.
But, you know, the end result is you're almostalways gonna need some type of enhancement for
radio coverage for either fire or cellular,It's great on our our side of things, but we
actually can't test to verify and validate thebuilding will need a system until windows are
(19:43):
up, the walls or doors are in place.
Need all those potential blocking items thereto validate whether or not the solution is
going to be needed.
So that's that's kind of where we come in asthe evil bad person.
But, you know, it's a necessary evil.
These systems, especially the first respondersystems being a code requirement, you know,
it's it's for the safety of those firstresponders to go in in the event of an
(20:06):
emergency.
The kicker on that though, this is one of thethings that I love to bring up and talk about,
is while that is a code required item, what'smissed is the cellular piece in a lot of
instances because it's not code.
It doesn't have to be put in.
But if you look at the the data on where mostemergency calls are placed, it's a mobile
device.
You know, it's on your cell phone.
(20:27):
Most people have multiple devices that areconnected to, you know, smartwatches.
Maybe they've got a tablet with them as well inaddition to their phone, maybe their laptop
actually runs on, you know, Verizon or T Mobileor AT and T wireless signal instead of Wi Fi.
Are all factors and things that need to betaken into consideration And it's the
well-being of of the actual staff or users.
(20:49):
You know, you want to have happy people in yourfacilities.
You know, let's say you're in a grocery storenow with things like Instacart, you've got
these mobile shoppers that are using apps ontheir phones so that, you know, it makes sense
to have good connectivity in addition to justthe standard Wi Fi.
You don't want to overload your Wi Fi or like,you know, traffic or even potentially have
(21:12):
someone trying to hack your system.
I mean, those are all different things to worryabout these days.
So if the standard around emergency systems,right?
The emergency responders, that's what you'regoing for.
Well, is it really that different of atechnology in comparison to the cellular
(21:32):
technologies?
You know, do they run side by side or or or isit really, really different?
They are different.
The network standards are different.
The types of radio networks are different.
You know, in in most first responder, like inin, you know, city environments, you know, they
will operate in the 700 or 800 megahertzfrequency range as, you know, two way radio.
(21:55):
On the cellular piece, you know, the mobileoperators, they have multiple frequency bands
they utilize ranging from 600 megahertz and allthe way up to, you know, the millimeter wave.
It's not something we deploy on these types ofsystems just because high frequency, it's our
systems are focused on basically everythingthat's sub six gigahertz.
So 600 up to, you know, 2,500 megahertz in inin most cases for the the carrier side.
(22:21):
And because they operate on higher frequencies,the antenna density is different in these in
building environments, right?
You know, higher frequency, the shorter thedistance that that signal is going to
propagate.
You know, lower frequency, let's go all the waydown to like VHF, UHF, and those first
responder places.
They penetrate and they travel much better.
So, the antenna density is less.
(22:42):
There are some codes now, some differentstandards that do allow converged systems where
you can have first responder networks on thecellular side of things.
But it's just it's a little tricky to designaround.
You'd mentioned the efficiencies, like leadlike a lead building,
right, like a building
that says lead certified.
Those tend to because of how they are beingbuilt specifically to be energy efficient,
(23:06):
those you find them at a higher proportionthat, like, hey, generally, you're gonna need
things if you're not sitting right next to aantenna.
Is that a
fair thing?
Absolutely.
Lead certified buildings, I mean, the the waythat they are built, they're they're great at
blocking radio frequencies and coming in.
That's why, you know, I always joke around thatthose are my favorite types of environments
because we can almost guarantee that thecoverage internal to the building is gonna be
(23:29):
terrible.
So, you know, that's, more of the low hangingfruit, I think, for us.
Yeah.
So then is that easier on the front end whenyou're working like, hey, with the GC or with
the developer, whoever it is, and saying like,we're gonna you're gonna have to do this.
Like, you know, 95% of the time, a leadbuilding is without question gonna cause this
problem.
So you wanna do this now because otherwise,it'll be three or four x the cost on the back
(23:53):
end if we have to rip out stuff and and redothe construction.
Yeah.
That's that's always our pitch, you know,educational process too and just helping
educate the the end customer that this is gonnabe a necessary item, especially if you want
that amazing experience for the the tenantswithin the building or guests that are coming
through.
So, you know, we do see it a little bit morenow in, you know, these current times that
(24:16):
building companies and the building owners,they are a little bit more in the know as to
how these things are working and that it mightbe a necessary item for them to consider.
So that's that's been helpful.
I I will say that with a luxury apartmentcomplex being built in the North Part of the
Valley, they've already started planning toinclude this type of infrastructure for
cellular in their new facility well in advanceof the completion.
(24:40):
So it's nice.
It's a nice thing to have, you know, at leastnow that people are becoming more used to this
and understand that there are productsavailable for that they are considering this in
advance.
Makes everyone's life a little bit easier.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, lead buildings obviously block signal, butthen you've got the everything else in between.
How does someone budget, right?
(25:01):
Because what you said is that not until thebuilding is pretty much complete, can you
actually tell whether or not you canessentially, someone's gonna need services such
as yourself to be able to go in and put inthese devices and put in the lines.
Right?
So that, know, the signal, whether it's theemergency signal, cell signal, all of the
above, right, where all these signals willactually propagate through the building.
(25:24):
So how does someone budget for something likethat?
Especially like, you know, owners and, youknow, building owners, let alone GCs, GC
doesn't even think about it, then that's a realproblem.
Yeah.
It's a good question.
You know, we've got a lot of historical datathat allows us to put together budgets based on
square footage.
And depending on building type, you know, thatgives us an idea of the density.
(25:46):
You know, in the first responder radio solutionspace, you know, it's common to see as low as
30¢ a square foot and maybe as high as, youknow, a dollar or a dollar 15 to a dollar 25 a
square foot depending on the frequencies thatneed to be deployed and the scale of the
deployment itself.
If we're looking at a full scale coveragesolution for the entire building, you know,
(26:08):
obviously your cost is going to be higher.
In a lot of cases though, you know, you don'tneed full building coverage for that system.
We just need to make sure that the coveragemeets the requirements set by the standards
for, you know, code requirements there.
So, it's typically, you know, negative 95, over95% of the facility.
You know, you could have half of the facilityalready having coverage from the outside
(26:30):
network, and they really only have
to do portion.
So, I'm
told that's just to put in the worst casescenario number on that.
And the same thing with cellular.
Cellular, we it's a little bit tricky if, youknow, we're not using, if we are using
something that is considered part 20, whichmeans it does not need to have a retransmission
agreement approved from carriers, you know,that can be partial coverage as well.
(26:55):
And those solutions are much lower cost.
I mean, down to, you know, 50¢ a square footdepending on density and upwards of $2 a square
foot.
Or in the larger systems, you know, the fullblown neutral host systems where we've got all
three of the main carriers and operatorsfeeding into this neutral system throughout the
entire building.
(27:15):
Now those those have to meet specific designcriteria that's in place by each carrier.
Because if you think about this, the carriersonly operate in that spectrum.
So if you only cover part of the building andit's not up to their standard, the user's gonna
walk in.
They're not gonna know that there's a system inplace that some some integrator like us had
(27:37):
deployed.
You know, they're just gonna assume thatVerizon T Mobile or AT and T is terrible in the
area and could result in them switching toanother provider.
So because of that, we have to meet thesespecific standards and ensure that, you know,
the end user, the, you know, general public isgonna walk in.
They're gonna have five bars coveragethroughout the facility.
And the transition as they walk in and out ofthose buildings, hands off properly between the
(27:59):
networks.
So, you know, with that and those densenetworks, I mean, the cost is gonna be
significantly higher.
Usually, a dollar to upwards of $6 a squarefoot depending on the network type.
It you can see there's a a pretty wide rangethere.
So if you're looking at a 200,000 square footfacility, it could be up around $200,000 or,
(28:20):
you know, six times that.
Just
more out of curiosity, is it the FCC that'sdictating this?
Or is it the actual carriers that's
It's the carriers.
Yeah.
The carriers have their design criteria that wehave to meet.
So us, as a vendor that works directly withVerizon T Mobile, AT and T, DISH, you know, we
know those standards.
(28:40):
That's kind of the, the baseline for how we putour designs together for new solutions that we
present to the customers, guaranteeing thatthey're gonna have that user experience that
expect.
Okay.
So, this isn't so it really is around thosethose carriers.
Is there any
reason Right.
Yeah.
They operate that spectrum and they they, youknow, their expectation is if there is
(29:02):
something there broadcasting their,technologies and their their spectrum and
frequencies, you know, they want it to be, youknow, cottonnotch, great performing solution.
So it's understandable.
So, I also imagine that there's probably
some fire code around all of this.
I'm on the cellular side.
So, really, the fire code, it really onlyapplies to the first responder network side of
(29:26):
things.
But there's a design standard there as well.
You know, we just have to ensure that adequatesignal strength throughout the facility is met
and specifically to emergency areas.
Right?
So stairwells, pump rooms, you know, anywherethat's gonna be in use by first responders in
the events of those emergencies.
K.
Totally makes sense.
Code wise, I have to imagine everyjurisdiction's different.
(29:51):
Different state, different jurisdiction,different city, maybe even different.
Is that I feel like if you're doing nationwidework or you're not just in the valley here,
that could, one, get complicated, but then alsothere's gotta be some that are like, oh, man.
The level of this is very low compared tosomewhere else, which is extraordinarily high.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's it's definitely achallenge across the country.
(30:12):
It varies depending on, you know, county, city,you know.
Everyone everyone interprets code differently.
And and the AHJ, the authority havingjurisdictions, you know, maybe they're having a
bad day and they want everything in conduit orthey want two hour rated coax cable used
throughout an entire facility.
Those those items have a huge impact on thecost to the customer as well because, you know,
(30:35):
the standard half inch cable, half inch cable,you know, a couple dollars a foot or $3 a foot
at worst.
But the two hour rated half inch cable, $75 afoot.
So you can see where the cost could climb veryquick.
And it's it's always tricky to really know whatcode is going to be in a given area.
(30:57):
Luckily, we've got resources like the SaferBuildings Coalition, a group that we are we
work work very closely with, and they do agreat job at keeping track of what code is
being enforced in what jurisdiction.
So it's a, you know, it's a good referencepoint, and they're they're actually very
helpful to all the integrators within, youknow, this space.
(31:18):
They they want to have they want everything towork right because it's important at the end of
the day to ensuring that our first respondersare have the connection and ability to
communicate that that they need to havesituations.
So an organization like the Safer BuildingCoalition, is that just like, hey.
There's just an informative organization, or isthat like something you partner up with?
(31:39):
There's a cost associated with membership forfor integrators and companies like us, but, you
know, they they actually travel around The USdoing a lot of informative sessions and get
togethers with local jurisdictions, highereducation, k to 12, you know, they'll they'll
support and help everyone and anyone really inin any case possible.
(32:00):
Their end goal is is communication and thatnetwork connectivity and just ensuring that
people are safe.
Then a good proponent in the cellular space aswell.
But just like I said earlier, most emergencycalls are they originate from a mobile device.
Not a lot of landlines in use anymore.
They throw a rotary phone in front of someonethat's under 30.
(32:20):
They're probably not even know how to use thateither.
So
It's very strange.
Rotary phone?
Yes.
There's there's no touch screen on here.
Yes.
No.
There's not.
Yeah.
So code wise, like, who is most strict?
Are you able to talk about, like, take thisarea, if you're trying to build a building, you
(32:41):
are going to need, no question, there is it'sso strict that, like, yeah, the the code is
just over not necessarily overbearing.
I don't wanna put it that way.
But, like, it is over the top compared to theaverage for the rest of the country.
Yeah.
You know, in most big cities, you're gonna seea lot of attention put into the this these
solutions, especially on the first responderside.
Phoenix is pretty strict.
(33:02):
I'll I'll I'll tell you that.
I've worked with the Phoenix Fire Group for anumber of years, and sometimes we don't get
along.
But, you know, it is what it is.
California has got some pretty strictjurisdictions.
Florida is actually very, very strict as well,and and, you know, very quick to enforce code.
You know, the thing is too, it's it's can meanlife or death.
And so having that level of attention to this,it's necessary.
(33:27):
Yeah.
It that's that makes sense.
Bigger city, just denser populations.
It also probably if yeah.
You're the expert at this, but, like, more orless people in an area, generally, you have
more or less frequencies flying around or lessradio disturbance?
Or is that no.
That's not true at all.
(33:48):
You know, it it depends.
It's luckily, there's, you know, with each ofthese systems that are out there, there are
folks monitoring the radio network.
You know, local to Phoenix, the group thatmanages the the first responder radio network
here is a regional wireless co op.
And they're a bunch of, you know, engineers andradio guys.
They they, you know, they're constantlymonitoring and and checking the health of their
(34:08):
systems.
But there are there's potential forinterference.
There always is, especially when you look atinto the radio frequency side of things.
That attention to the network is asked out too.
Like, on the carrier side, you know, there's abuilding full of engineers that are constantly
monitoring the KPIs or key performanceindicators of systems and the health of the
networks to ensure that there's not all aboutsore network outages.
(34:32):
That's the same thing on the first responderside.
Okay.
Makes sense.
Totally.
Just because, of our current administration,and I'm trying not to be political here for a
second, there have been some mandates aroundstricter enforcement, around security.
Have those mandates somehow especially becauseof first responder networks, but have those
(34:55):
mandates somehow carried down to essentially anaffecting an effect affecting what you guys are
doing?
Not yet.
You know, we have seen I mean, on the cellularside, those networks are very secure.
It's an encrypted network.
It's there's not a whole lot you can do tobreak into it unless you get in through the
actual switch side of things and the thenetwork itself.
(35:17):
You're not gonna break into it over the air.
On the first responder side, slightly differenttechnology, but it's not easy to, know, same
thing, to break into it and and harm thenetwork from, from the ground away from the the
towers or the radio itself.
Sure, you could probably listen in if you'vegot the right equipment, but it's the impact of
the network is gonna be pretty minimal.
(35:39):
Signal jam jammers or blockers are probably thebiggest risk to the network health.
But, you know, those are mostly illegal, kindahard to get.
Outside of that, we've seen we've seen a littlebit more movement approvals for new spectrum
or, you know, that's something that are relatedto some of the technology updates and ads that
(35:59):
carriers wanna deal with this administration.
And that's really it, though.
Nothing else that's harming us.
If anything, there's been a benefit to ourindustry, specifically the integrators, because
of some of the actions that the FCC has takenin their meetings and partnerships with groups
(36:19):
like NAEP, which is a National Association ofTower Directors, they work on behalf of
companies like us to help in this, you know,ever changing environment.
So that, you know, on the carrier space, in theconstruction side, those customers know the
cost of these systems.
They know exactly how much it costs for atower, what the typical cost is going to be for
(36:41):
an indoor coverage solution.
And they've kinda used that against us over theyears.
You know, they they continue to drive ourprices down while the cost of goods and cost of
living continues to go up.
And so with, you know, our friends in theindustry like Bates and Safer Buildings, you
know, with them supporting some of theseefforts with the FCC, it's actually made things
(37:01):
better for companies like us.
Okay.
So,
that makes sense.
Essentially, unless you have physical access.
So, when you say switches, you're talking aboutactual physical access to where sort of the
cables because wireless isn't truly wireless.
There's cable that's run run under tons
of cable.
There's fiber.
Almost every every cell cell tower and cellsite has fiber onto it.
(37:26):
You've got a multi gig circuits to supportthroughput and the bandwidth that the end users
need.
Yeah.
Your wireless is only wireless for a littlebit.
Something something else, that I was thinkingabout, safety has to look a little different.
Right?
You have safety when it comes to, like, yoursteel structures.
(37:46):
Right?
What does safety look like, when you're aroundthese wireless, you know, essentially these are
wireless devices that are emitting frequency.
Is it any different?
No.
You know, there's there's a lot of differentthings that we have to take into account,
especially with working near live cell sites orlive radio towers, you know, safety network or
(38:06):
even the old broadcast towers.
You'll feel it if you're if you're too closefor too long on an app at site.
I mean, that is energy that's being emitted.
You know, typical signs of overexposure toradio frequency, you know, you start sweating,
you feel novice, get dizzy.
So it's definitely not somewhere you wanna hangout.
But in most cases, you know, if we are workingon live sites, we'll we'll usually do
(38:30):
maintenance within a maintenance window.
So overnight when the traffic is lowest andthere's the least amount of users, And we
coordinate those downtimes with whoever theoperator is for that area.
When it comes to the actual build side ofthings, you know, we have a number of policies
in place.
We have regular training for all of ouremployees.
(38:52):
And we require the same standards withsubcontractor partners that we use because it
is dangerous.
The radio towers themselves, you know, theyneed to eat some in the more rural areas, they
could be, you know, up some feet tall.
It could be a thousand foot tall bag of wirepower.
And it's a lot of climbing.
You know, there's a lot of risk with thosetypes of those work environments.
(39:12):
You know, ensuring that our climbers are a 100tie off all the time so that there's always
connection to something physical.
There's an unfortunate event where they slip,but they're still attached.
Right?
They might bang their head a little bit, butthey're not falling all the way to the ground.
Even the indoor environments, you know, weoperate and work a lot on scissor lifts and
ladders and scaffolding.
(39:32):
Some instances, we're up in the catwalk areas.
You know, we've got a project coming up atArena here in the downtown area of Phoenix.
But, you know, we're installing a bunch ofradios and antennas on the catwalk area in
these elevated spaces.
So, you know, there's a risk of if somethingfall, drop something, trip and fall yourself.
I mean, there's it's very important for us.
(39:53):
Safety is a very important item that we takevery seriously here.
Just we wanna make sure everyone is making ithome at the end of the day to their family and
and also enjoying the things that they do andnot, you know, not having these major risks or
potential hazards that could come.
A little different.
There's a name for that.
Is that is that radiate radiation sickness?
Is that what that is?
I mean, yeah.
(40:14):
Kind of.
It's non ionizing radiation, but so it's on theon the cellular side and the first responder
network side.
But it's still it's doesn't feel good.
I remember when I was much younger working inthe test bed area with one of our carrier
partners.
I was testing some amplifiers that we weredeploying in the network prior to launching
(40:35):
three g.
So this is a while ago.
I was working with another technician and justcalibrating some equipment.
I had it attached to a small antenna just, youknow, at this amplifier, a signal generator
running through some other calibration going toan antenna.
And I forgot I left it on.
I'm standing there, and we're having aconversation.
And after, you know, five minutes, I'm justsweating bullets.
(40:59):
And I'm like, yeah, feel good.
And the the other person I was with lookedover, he goes, did you leave that thing on?
I was like, oh, man.
Sorry.
You know, so I ran over the button.
And then, you know, it it passed a few minuteslater.
Yes.
That it's not hot.
Oh, okay.
Well, you know, it's basically frying yourinsides out.
(41:20):
It's like a microwave.
Yeah.
That's the other example I was gonna use.
You know, how do you think your food's heatingup in there?
Radio waves.
You could have become a superhero, like RadioMan or something.
It'd have been cool.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, I I was thinking about this for alittle bit.
Is it the same because of the different typesof networks, the different types of
(41:43):
frequencies?
Can you put everything on the same location?
Meaning, your different antennas, right, forlike, if you have a really large coverage.
I know that there's a problem there's someproblems because of the different frequency
ranges.
Can everything be put into the same box and itjust works?
Or you have to design things differentlybecause of the different frequency ranges?
(42:05):
We do have to design different we have todesign around those, the different frequency we
have deployed.
So on an indoor environment, you know, we wehave shared infrastructure, but we'll have
like, let's say, we're using a traditionaldistributed antenna system where we've got the
amplifier in the closet and then coax andsplitters and antennas out into the serving
(42:27):
areas.
Well, those the coax and that sharedinfrastructure can support frequencies up to
6,000 megahertz or six gigahertz.
Actual active equipment though, like theamplifiers themselves, those are all band
specific.
So, there'll be an individual amplifier withinthe box for 700 megahertz or eight fifty or
(42:49):
1,900.
But then once those are all combined, they canshare the a common pathway.
In the tower side of things, it's a little bitdifferent, but it's it's also the same.
You have amplifiers.
You've got the radios.
Those actual components that generate a signalthat your phone sees.
And in most cases now, those are amplifiers aremounted at the back of the antenna or there
(43:14):
could be smart antennas.
But each one, the active components, those areall separate.
But, know, if you if you drive by a tower andyou look up, you're gonna see a set of
antennas.
They're all the technologies are gonna bebigger antennas will be lower frequency,
smaller antennas will be higher frequency.
Okay.
Well, thank you for, you know, clarifying thatfor me.
(43:34):
Yeah.
And in some cases too,
you'll you'll drive by or if you're looking atthe, the existing outdoor network, you'll
notice that there might be multiple sets ofantennas at different different types of power.
Well, it's just another carrier or provider.
There's, you know, also shared infrastructurein that environment.
They'll have different backhaul circuits comingin because they all connect to their own switch
(43:55):
network.
Data and calls are processed.
But, you know, they're looking up at the tower,they'll just another set of antennas.
And the reason why they can do that, you know,each operator, whether it's public safety side
of things or the carrier, mobile networks, theyall have their own licensed spectrum that they
use, and then they don't really overlap.
Right?
So they've got chunks of different frequenciesthat belong to them that they can operate in
(44:19):
different markets, and there's no real sharingbetween either of them.
So I wanna switch to the technology side for,for a second.
Do you guys use any specific technologies?
No?
Help you guys work?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course.
On the design side, you know, it's kind of aindustry standard.
We use a platform called IBWave.
That's really the the gold standard across theboard for in building coverage solutions and
(44:44):
design.
In the outdoor side of things, there's there'stwo different tools.
ATOL is very popular for the the towerpropagation side of things.
You know, we all we use very specific equipmentfor our testing and deployment as well.
High precision has to be calibrated on a, youknow, pretty regular basis, I'd say, every year
or two years just to maintain, you know, goodtest results and ensure that the data we're
(45:09):
providing actually is accurate data.
But, yeah, it's it's it's definitely anexpensive business to be in because the cost of
equipment is it sits up there.
Some of our our scanners that we use to go outand collect data, I mean, they're 30,000,
$50,000 a piece.
Woah.
Yeah.
That's and so, you know, someone says, oops, Idropped it.
It's like panic mode.
(45:30):
Boy.
Yeah.
And then, you know, we have to have multipledevices like that too because we've got several
employees that are out doing testing in in, youknow, any given time any any week too.
And it could be one side of the country or orcould be local.
We don't know.
So we have to have multiple sets of equipment.
In addition to that, we have to havespecialized test phones that have very
(45:52):
expensive software.
I mean, most you'll get, like, an iPhone oryour Samsung Galaxy.
In retail price on something like that, it'd bea thousand bucks or $1,500 if you're buying it
direct.
The phones that we have, in addition to that,we have a software that's uploaded and it's
licensed that's, you know, 10 to $15,000 perdevice.
(46:13):
We have to have a device for every provider,and sometimes we have to have multiple devices
to to run the amount of tests that we need insome of these larger facilities.
So, you could literally just on a a job, youcould literally have, you know, a 150 to
quarter million dollars worth of equipment justto go testing.
Oh, Holy boy.
And, you know, not just the equipment, like thesoftware is expensive.
(46:36):
Know, the design software, we only have we'reassigned a certain amount of licenses based on
what we pay for.
They have active users logged into the thesoftware to do these design tasks.
And it's, you know, it's annual fees.
I mean, we're we're looking at depending onbusiness size and use as low as $30,000, but
(46:56):
usually over a $100,000 a year in licensingfees.
Jeez.
Oh,
man.
Yeah.
And then I
might I might as well ask them the obviousquestion.
What learning lessons or what do you wish youhad known when you were when you were
implementing new technologies?
That's a great question, man.
I I definitely, made plenty of mistakes overthe years and I we're probably still paying for
(47:17):
a couple of them.
This that makes me think that, competitionwise, you gotta be a more I'm gonna say this in
a nice way.
A real player just simply because, like, justto get that equipment to be able to utilize,
it'd be probably hard for me to start one ofthese in my
spare bedroom is my guess.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's definitely an expensiveand costly industry to be in.
(47:39):
It's it's very specialized.
You know, we've got a a good number ofcompetitors in this space.
Some much larger than us, some that are smallerthan us.
And, but there are some some good guys outthere.
You know, we definitely cross paths a lot.
But you gotta play nice in the sandbox because,you know, business is business, but and you
never know who's gonna end up working with youor who you might end up working for if, you
(48:01):
know, things change in your career path downthe way.
So it's good to be nice in the industry, but
It's one of the weird spaces where, you know,today today, you're my competitor.
Tomorrow, I have to be friends with you.
Yeah.
It's you know, and I'm partnering with you onsome large project so you get you know, so that
everyone can get a piece of the pie.
(48:22):
This is one of the weird places in the industrywhere you have to play nice with the sandbox.
Yeah.
It's it's funky.
You know, some we've had I've seen this happenover the years too where one of our competitors
will start working for one of our carrierpartners or for a third party operator.
And when say third party operator, this companyis like Crown Castle or Boingo.
Boingo is a pretty well known name because youcan go into an airport, most of the time the Wi
(48:45):
Fi is hosted by Boingo.
They also provide networks and infrastructurefrom the carrier groups to attach to easily
large stadiums.
But it's yeah.
You never know what you're gonna what's gonnahappen or what you're run into.
Makes sense.
Just because this is a topic that keeps poppingup, might as well ask.
(49:06):
AI.
What are you guys found in terms of AI?
Is it usable?
Have you started finding applications for it?
Applicability for it?
Have you started integrating it?
Where are you guys at on your AI journey?
Yeah.
I know we I think across the company, weeveryone's using AI on a daily basis.
Whether it's increasing some of theefficiencies for finding documents or
(49:29):
troubleshooting guides or equipment informationwithin our database or even just down to, like,
predictive analysis for monitoring on the thesites that we have deployed with our customer
sites.
Those are probably the most common areas thatwe're seeing and using it right now.
On the carrier side, I've been told, thatthey're starting to implement AI everywhere.
(49:55):
Their network planning and the monitoring oftheir networks, the optimization of their
networks, it's it's gonna probably startreplacing a few people here and there or even,
you know, in the come the years to come.
But it's it's definitely there.
We see it, yeah, daily right now.
Okay.
Justin, I think it's that time.
Yeah.
I think you're right.
(50:15):
John, we like to ask this question to all ofour guests.
So if you could go back twenty years, whatadvice would you give yourselves?
02/2005.
Ugh.
Were you at the were you at the mall at thispoint slanging cell phones?
Is that where you were at in 02/2005?
I I think I just left that and I was I wasworking at Radio Shack.
(50:36):
Oh, radio?
Man, you really you love radio.
Like, is shit.
You and I have more in common than you realize.
I worked at a Radio Shack.
Maybe not at two thousand five, but I've workedat a Radio Shack.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I'd probably forced myself to expanding oursales group earlier, know, to working in the
(50:57):
the space that's not funded by the carrierfolks and then just try to educate more people
about what we do earlier in my career.
Good lesson.
Yeah.
You know, it's the best I can do.
Either that or just buy more lottery tickets.
Back to the future.
Yeah.
The back to the future.
Bring back the, sports almanac and and just letit ride.
(51:19):
Yeah.
Cool.
So, this has been fun, but how could people getahold of you if that was or how could people
get ahold of you?
What's the best way for them to do that?
Email.
I mean, email my phone out there, but, youknow, the the amount of spam calls I get now,
it's hard to even look at it and wanna answerit.
Okay.
But, yeah, my through our website also, youknow, we've got a contact us, page on the
(51:40):
website.
My personal email for the company is justfirstname.lastname@engineeringwirelessservices.
Okay.
Yeah.
I will I will put that in the show notes.
And then is there anything else you'd like totell the people before we say our goodbyes?
No.
Just there's a solution.
Alright?
That it's not that you don't have to deal andsuffer through poor cellular phone coverage.
(52:05):
You don't have to you don't have to live thatnightmare of drop calls and not being able to
have connect connectivity to people.
There is a solution there.
Cool.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Alright.
This has been a ton of fun.
And listeners, until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
(52:28):
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(52:53):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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