October 28, 2025 • 45 mins
Marcy Segal of MSA Interiors joins the episode to discuss the significance of diverse revenue streams and her journey in the AEC industry. She provides an overview of MSA Interiors, highlighting their employee focus, future plans, and new training programs. Marcy shares insights on value engineering, client collaboration, and leveraging in-house capabilities. Reflecting on lessons from the 2008 financial crisis, she emphasizes the importance of embracing diverse projects and community engagement in design. The conversation explores resilience, team input, and the role of caregiving experience in leadership. Marcy also discusses the benefits of entrepreneur groups and EO, concluding with advice on seeking and acting on guidance.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Do stadiums, you know, lots of differentrevenue streams that have different economy
(00:06):
adjust at different times.
And that's what helps you grow the business.
That's what helps you succeed during difficulttimes.
So the diversity is actually what helped youscale.
Most people would say focus, and that's whathelp you sail.
Have
you ever wondered how successful architecture,engineering, and construction company scale
(00:26):
their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, And we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
(00:48):
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:09):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guest is Marci Segal, who is thefounder and principal of MSA Interiors, a
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leading commercial interior design firm.
She brings thirty plus years of experienceshaping spaces across multifamily housing,
student housing, senior living, affordablehousing, and other complex commercial projects.
Marci partners with top developers, real estateinvestment trusts, and institutions nationwide,
delivering designs that are both innovative andstrategically aligned with client goals.
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Her expertise also extends to advising majormanufacturers, helping shape product lines to
meet evolving market demands.
I recognize thought leader Marcy shares herinsights through speaking engagements and in
industry collaborations.
She's an active member of EntrepreneursOrganization or EO as it's known in Baltimore,
embodying entrepreneurial leadership andinnovation in her field.
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And with all that said, Marcy, welcome to theshow.
Thank you so much, Justin.
And, Will, I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on.
Yes.
I I said some nice things about you, but tellus the real story.
How did you get into the interior design spaceand tell us about MSA?
Interior design.
Let's see.
I was a young girl, and my mother had adifferent interior designer every single year
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working on our house, and she I'm the onlydaughter.
So I was brought in to look at everything andgive my opinion, and it became a very
passionate thing for me from a very young age.
And so I'd work with my mom on kind of likedeveloping the house and developing my portion
of the house.
And I had a sewing room and a arts and craftsroom, and I had a lot of different areas that I
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could be creative.
And so I was I was very creative from a youngage.
So I kind of knew what I wanted to do and justhad to get to that path and fine tune my skills
and grow those skills to become what we aretoday.
I'm always envious when somebody at such ayoung age knows what they wanna do or at least
has a good idea of where they wanna take theirlife because you have so much more runway to
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figure it out then.
I I was gonna be super cop.
That was what I was
gonna be.
I was gonna be an astronaut.
Yes.
And neither of us have ever used those skillsets ever.
So, it's wild, to think that like somebody atsuch a young age can find that thing that they
love and then be able to just, you know, attackit and go for it.
So that's that's really cool.
So tell us about the firm.
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So the firm is twenty four years strong and wehave an incredible team of people.
And what I say is you're only as good as yourpeople.
And when you have great people, you producegreat work.
So I think we we have grown.
I've also learned how to be a better owner,manager, and then on my skills, just really
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learning how to be more in tune with whateveryone's needs are and trying to understand
what can make us better as a group for ourclients.
And so we do exercises and we do some trainingand we talk about different things and we're
very open about it and try to get really goodfeedback from everyone that works here.
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And all that knowledge helps you to, like, havea happier company, I think, as as a whole.
Okay.
So you're obviously passionate about people.
That that's very obvious.
And when we had the calls beforehand, that was,you know, it was beaming off you how much
passion you had for your people.
So what does that look like in true practice?
A lot of people talk about, oh, I care about mypeople.
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My people matter.
They're my difference maker, all these things.
But like what when you put it down to brasstacks, what how does that actually be
demonstrated in the firm?
Well, I'm gonna turn the company overeventually to my employees.
And so I want my employees to continue to growthe company and build the company and take it
to multiple generations.
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And the way you do that is with really goodpeople that care about the business and
understand that not only are they going to workhard, but they're also going to get something
that's really tangible going forward.
And so and I think and feel that everyonehere's earned that right to have a portion of
the company.
So it's very important for me to continue itthat way.
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And I've seen other design firms, you know, thehead person, you know, has been there for, you
know, thirty, forty years, and they decidethey're gonna retire and they don't give the
business to their employees.
They just kind of shut the doors or sell thebuilding they're in, and then their employees
have to kind of scramble.
I think there's just way too many other optionsthat I think can work better.
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And if you have a strong team and they staywith you for a long period of time, there's no
reason why they can't be taking over yourcompany.
So
Yeah.
That that's really putting your money whereyour mouth is, as they say, literally.
That's amazing.
In the twenty four years strong, when did thatidea start, you know, percolating of like, this
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is what I'm going do.
Cause most owners, right?
They start the business.
They want to, you know, create that freedom forthemselves.
They grow the business, they scale it a littlebit.
And then there is some form of exit strategy.
What that means could be tons of differentthings.
In your case, you're saying, hey, like, let letme pass it down to the people that are already
here.
Is that, you know, when did that idea kind ofpop up?
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So I kind of knew that I was going to do thatprobably maybe eight years ago.
I had it in my mind when I was doing estateplanning.
I don't have my own children so I have lots ofother people's children's, my brother's and my
significant other.
So I wanted to really build something that Icould turn over and, you know, to grow and
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build it and have people step up into positionsthat I felt could really take the company to
the next level.
And so when I decided to do that, it reallycame about when I was doing estate planning
because, as you know, you have to kind offigure all that stuff out.
And, you have to have who's your successor andwho's taking over and how's it going to work
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and, you know, how do you do that?
And so all of that kind of had to be thoughtout when I was doing the updating of my estate
planning.
And with that, I also went to a program atPrinceton where I everyone that got into the
program is there to exit and sell.
And I told them right up front before I appliedwhen they interviewed me, I said, I'm not
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interested in selling.
I'm interested in growing until I can'tmentally do this anymore or until, you know,
I'm not physically able.
And so they were they were like, that's a newone for us.
And I said, but I have another idea that I wantto build and build it to sell.
So when I was there, I presented that idea andeverybody loved it.
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And I have been working on it since.
And hopefully we'll be launching.
It's a training program for designers.
And so I'm hoping to launch that, you know, inthe next few months.
And I've been diligently working on italongside of my business and self financing it
and just, you know, really working with amentor because it's always great to have a
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mentor in a different arena when you don't knowthe arena very well.
And when I presented it, he was one of theentrepreneurs, a serial entrepreneur that has a
lot of expertise in the learning managementarea.
So he jumped right on board, and we have callslike two to three times a month and really been
honing in on all the little details of that newcompany.
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So it's very excited about it.
And that's the company I'm building to sell,which was an offshoot of basically what we do
in our existing company.
Interesting.
So you're not only running the firm, you havethis other learning platform, like this
learning management platform, sounds like.
Yep.
Did that come out of necessity or thatliterally just came as an idea of like, I don't
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like, I wanna train my people, but I could dothis externally as well and then exit.
We were already training our people.
So it was already what we were doinginternally.
We had started these processes that were youknow, when you're out there and you're seeking
a lot of new creative people, it's really hardto tell what level someone's on, even if their
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portfolio is spectacular, because we work inRevit mostly.
And so because we work in Revit, Revit is oneof those programs that you're never gonna know
the entire Revit.
It's just one of those types of programs.
There's just so many layers to it.
And so architects use it differently thaninterior designers.
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The program was actually developed forarchitects, but we're designers using it.
So we use it in a different way than architectsuse it.
And so because of that, we have to create ourown libraries.
We we spent nine years creating our own libraryof things that we need for interior design for
Revit, not what you can pull off the Internetfor that's already existing.
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And so because of that, we had already createda library that was we knew was pretty valuable.
And I was like, I don't really want to sell mymy library.
I mean, that's kind of like somethingproprietary.
We've built it based on what our types ofprojects are.
But I do have these the way we're trainingpeople, every single person that walks in the
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door that's a designer here, we train them torender every single job in house.
So we don't ship it overseas anymore.
We don't have a third party doing it anymore.
We're actually doing it as we're designing andwe're moving along through the process.
So we knew that we were doing something greatbecause our clients were, like, super excited
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about it.
They're actually getting to see this, like,super realistic visualization of our job.
They're like, this is amazing.
We want this on every job.
Can you make sure you include this in everysingle project that you do?
And we're like, yeah.
And so we started doing that.
We give it to everyone.
So everyone gets that beautiful multiplerenderings of each of the different spaces.
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And you can really see as you're going throughthe design process, things that you might wanna
change like, oh, let's do the storefront inblack.
And then we can add black to this back areaover by the mail and package area.
But let's see what it looks like if we do thisto it and you can just instantly change it up
and see it visually and make big decisions.
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So that's what we started doing.
And we obviously know a lot about productbecause we develop a lot of products.
So we're incredibly knowledgeable about theprice points of products.
So when construction costs went up, everybodywanted everything else to go down.
Okay?
So you have to know what you're working with.
You need to know what your price points arewhen you're selecting.
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So we basically when we're showing and workingas a team with the developer and we all pick
the materials together, mostly, you know, thedeveloper picks what we present, we're telling
them what the price points are right then andthere.
So if you like something that's a dollar 50,but you love something that's $3, you got to
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justify the price.
So a square foot that is.
So when you're looking at, you know, 600 units,that little cost differential can bring the
pricing down considerably.
So you have to really put the money where youreally want to get the most excitement.
And so we're showing those price points.
Right.
We're literally putting like the price right onthe back as we're showing them to the client.
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Then they're like, well, what's this price?
I really love that, but it looks reallyexpensive.
Well, that's like $4 and $75, you know, $4.75 asquare foot.
They go, well, I don't think I like thatexcitement as much.
I don't think it's worth the differentialthere.
So then we go back to the lower price point.
So you're basically doing the value engineeringas you're selecting.
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And that is the difference and something thatreally set us apart from a lot of other groups.
Yep.
No.
That's smart.
It's this is so silly.
They have those, like, those little videoswhere it's like, build your ultimate fast food
meal.
And it's like, for $5, you can get a Big Mac or$4, you get a Whopper and that goes down and
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then you bill you only have x amount ofdollars.
Right?
The concept's the same except just that muchlarger scale and, you know, so many more
products.
Right?
Because like, oh, this particular product, thatparticular product, and then all the different
aspects of of a design go in and say like, hey,where do you wanna spend the dollars?
Like, is this, tile just so good that it'sworth the extra and you'll pull back somewhere
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else?
That makes sense of sense.
You know, we're showing wall coverings and, youknow, they may wanna v e it to paint.
We can make those decisions as we're kind ofmoving through that fast process of selecting
materials.
So we may select the wall covering, the vinylwall covering, and then we may put on there
another list underneath of it for the scheduleof finishes, value engineer option, paint.
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And here's the paint color so that they haveit.
It's ready to go.
We don't have to come back and start fromground zero.
So that's all part of our training.
It's letting designers know that they have toknow what price points are.
You can't just pick anymore whatever you want.
We're we're working the budgets no matter howexpensive the project is, and you have to be
able to come in on those budgets.
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And our goal is to literally come in exactlywhere we tell the client we're gonna come in.
And that's that's that's a hard thing to do,but we do it every single time.
Love that.
You you mentioned something, and I've heardthis before.
I'm talking about rendering, where you weresending it overseas or you were sending it
somewhere else and then you bought it in house.
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Can you talk about can you tell me why thatdecision?
There's a lot of opinions on this, and I'm justreally curious about Yeah.
What made you go that
We don't do it at all anymore.
But why we were doing it before was because wedidn't have the rendering programs as developed
as they are now.
Okay.
So now we can work with Revit and Enscape andwe can really create what we need to in house.
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And the reason we sent it overseas is becausethey're in a different time zone.
So basically, we could give it to them when weleave or during the day.
And when we come back in the morning, it'sdone.
Oh, so that was like a big factor.
So they're basically working for us into theevening, but it's actually on their daytime.
So
And they're and so okay.
(15:59):
So that was when you were sending it overseas.
And you said that you brought it back in house.
So We did.
And the reason we brought it back in house andI feel bad because I love the guys that were
doing the renderings for us.
But there was so much back and forth that ittook the designer finally we figured out we
could just the back and forth and the makingthe notes and correcting everything, lighting,
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shading, everything else, we can just do itourselves.
Let's just bring it in house, do it ourselves,move it along the process, put it in there,
create something that we can actuallyvisualize, the client can visualize.
And when you're done, it actually the roomlooks so close to what our rendering is that a
lot of the clients are, using it for marketingpurposes.
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So
Did the technology was was it also becausetechnology improved, we'll say enough for so
much that 100%.
Effective?
Okay.
100% technology.
The software, the technology, the ability to beable to do it in our office was just so much
more effective.
Yeah.
And you said there was so much back and forth.
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Was that the time when you sort of reevaluatedso you were fine?
And then when you realized the back and forthwas happening, that's when you reevaluate
whether or not to invest more in technology.
Yep.
And we did invest heavily into technology andsoftware and really spent a lot more money.
I would say, you know, when you look at yourexpenses for a business, you know, personnel is
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always, you know, the biggest.
We own our building.
So, you know, luckily, we bought that at a veryit's an old church, by the way, from the
eighteen fifties, as you can see behind me.
But we have low overhead.
You know, personnel is our biggest overhead.
And beside personnel, IT and software is ournext big nut.
So, you know, when you look at, you know,running a business, you're looking at all these
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things.
You're looking at the profits.
You're looking at the margins.
You're looking at where you're coming inconstantly.
You're constantly looking at that stuff becauseit's super important to run a successful
business over a long period of time.
You're planning.
You're having financial internal meetings.
You're having financial external meetings.
You're having a lot of meetings to plan and hitnumbers.
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And, you know, and I think one of the thingsthat I learned during the o eight eleven time
where I just absolutely got clobbered, I keptall my employees on, didn't pay myself for over
three years, kept them all at the same salary.
You learn.
I probably wouldn't do that again, but, it feltgood at the time, but I was, like, pinching
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pennies for myself.
And, and, basically, you you learn a lot abouthow to run a business.
I had too many eggs in one basket.
And when it hit that market, it clobbered me.
So I promised that myself that I would do fiverevenue streams, and that even immersed down to
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eight and then to 10.
So I had eight to 10 revenue streams coming in.
And that's why we have the senior living, thestudent housing, the multifamily affordable
housing, the market rate, you know, multifamilyhousing.
We do data centers.
We do stadiums.
You know, lots of different revenue streamsthat have different economy adjust at different
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times.
And that's what helps you grow the business.
That's what helps you succeed during difficulttimes.
So the diversity is actually what helped youscale.
Most people would say focus, and that's whathelp you sail.
And learning how to run a business because Ididn't know how to run a business.
I knew how to do creative.
I did not know how to run a business.
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And when you guys were talking about, like,what you wanted to do when you were young, you
know, tying it all back in.
My I was very good at math and science, funnyenough.
And so but I had I was an artist and a creativeperson.
And so my mother had me tested.
I had all these tests taken to see what I mightexcel at.
And it all said science and math.
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And over to the far side said creative,something creative.
And my mother's like, do you want to go tomedical school?
Do you want to be a scientist?
You know, you know, it's showing that you're sogood at math and science.
And I said, I didn't need a test to tell methat.
I knew that because of my grades.
I said, I like it.
I like math and science.
I actually love math and science, but I don'thave the passion for it that I do being a
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designer.
So I had a passion for doing graphic design,for doing interior design, and doing art
projects.
That was where my passion lied as a young girl.
And so I went with my passion.
And as you guys know, when you run a businessand you have passion for it, it's a very big
difference than just working on a business.
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Just as it's just I love it.
I really, really love it.
And so I think, you know, you want all yourpeople and your teams to bring that excitement
and joy to your clients.
And so that's what I think our team does.
Everyone brings a lot of energy and a lot ofjoy to every single project.
And just like myself, all my creative people,they like diversity in projects.
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Okay?
They wanna see, you know, they want to tryworking on many different things.
They don't want to be just stuck in one avenueof design.
So that's sort of the joy for them as well asbeing able to work on these cool and exciting
projects that are all very different.
And if they worked for a very, very large firm,they'd be stuck in one area of interest and
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that would be it.
And they wouldn't get the opportunity to workon all these kind of fun and exciting different
types of projects.
So in essence, you're helping create wellrounded individuals essentially, and helping
run the business.
I think that might be a good segue to somethingthat you had said before to us, which is that
you are a natural caregiver.
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For for the uninformed, how would you definecaregiving?
And can you explain to someone that's So not anatural caregiver?
So I have been unfortunate to and fortunate tohave cared for both my parents, as well as my
aunt, and also my nephew who was in an accidentwith a brain injury.
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So all of those different experiences bring alot of maturity and a lot of skill set that
you're learning.
You're constantly learning because it's a newchannel that you've never been down before.
And so you have to be very open to learning newthings from other people that have more
experience in that arena than you do.
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And I actually get a lot of joy out of it.
And so when you say natural caregiving, that'swhat I mean.
I get incredible joy bringing and helpingsomeone that's in need.
And, and I've done it a lot and I feel it's notit feels good for me and I hope it feel it felt
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good for them.
But, you know, when I walk in and I would seemy mother's face light up and my aunt's face
light up and I made it a daily occurrence to bethere every day in between my crazy work
schedule for both my mother and my father.
And then with my aunt, I just literally wouldput it on the schedule as if it's a meeting so
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that I could get there.
And then, of course, if, you know, I needed tobe there for something more immediate, then I
would just drop everything and do it.
But I really get a lot of joy out ofcaregiving.
It's it's like a special feeling that I can'treproduce in anything else, and it feels very
natural for me.
It's not forced.
How does that translate to the business side?
So caregiving, you obviously you have a carefor your people, so that was inherent.
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So what is this natural ability that that isfulfilling to you?
How does that come out in the business?
Well, it not only comes out to my team, but Ithink it also comes out to the client.
I think, we're very, very passionate about thework that we do and making it have good
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outcome.
So for instance, we work on a job.
I like to go back a year later and talk to theproperty manager and find out what's working,
what's not working.
I also like to go back and talk to themaintenance manager and find out what are you
having problems with?
What what's giving you a hard time inmaintenance in the units or in the amenity
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area?
So I wanna learn.
I wanna always learn from whatever we're doing.
You know, the caregiving part of it is is thatyou want everyone else in the company to learn
as well.
And you have to be open to hearing somecriticism and you have to be open to, you know,
pushing your design skills as far as you canpush them and being open to knowledge from
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other people.
And that's really also in my actual caregiving.
That's where I would gain a lot of things.
I would get a lot of new and great tidbits fromlooking online or talking to different people
that had gone through the same thing and,really getting that sort of support knowledge
from other people and learning how to, youknow, interact with whoever it is that you're
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caregiving.
Because each person has a different need.
And I had never experienced any of them before.
So they were all new and invaluable, justreally invaluable.
When you think of the that work, your, your,the impact that you have, you're obviously
people living in places.
If it is affordable housing or market rate orwhat have you, you know, what is the impact
(25:37):
that that interiors have?
Like when you look at this, because you cantell that there's a deep passion, right?
A deep amount of empathy for other humanbeings.
Impact has to be the goal, right?
Like that is inherently the, how can I be asimpactful as possible?
At least that's what it feels like.
So what, when you see the business,specifically on the firm side, what is the
(25:58):
impact that you're driving for?
Yeah, great question.
What we like to do is to do some research andwe like to go to the community where the
building is going to be.
Talk to people.
Find out what the community's needs are.
What are they missing?
What kind of things would they want in thebuilding?
You know, if you're putting a new building infor affordable housing and you're working with
(26:22):
an affordable housing group, they're going totell you what they want.
But I also like to go to the area where it'sgoing to be and really talk to the people that
live there and have lived there for a long timeand really find out what would be beneficial
for them in the building as far as amenities,services, any kind of programs that might be
running into that particular building, andreally try to create and and carve those things
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out in the way that we design and cut up thespace and and utilize the building, trying to
get the most out of it for everyone that'sgonna live there.
Like, you know, you're looking you're lookingat the audience.
You know, is this gonna be a lot of aging inplace people in an affordable housing building
with, wheelchairs and walkers?
And, you know, you you're gonna look at are wegoing to have more seniors?
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We want to make sure it's easy to get to thebathroom from your bedroom.
So that path is like a direct path rather thanthrough a closet or things of that nature.
So it's really just about small nuances that wework through.
And also just even in the amenity area, are wegonna have a kitchen?
Are meals going to be delivered?
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Are they gonna be having, like, senior mealswhere somebody delivers them and prepares them
and and drops them off and people can eattogether and get socialized?
Or are we gonna have, like, a gaming area, youknow, geared towards, you know, gamers and
have, you know, the younger audience?
You know, it's just taking a deeper look atjust the marketing information that you're
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getting from the client and really looking atthe community and seeing what those needs are
and the competition and seeing what they'reoffering and and and really trying to give
something better and greater.
I think the term the term that I I think theterm is walking a mile in someone else's shoes.
Yeah.
I love that.
I love that statement because it's so true inthis case.
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You know, we're building typically, thebuildings that we're working on have a very
long term hold.
The client's gonna be holding on to it a verylong time.
It could be generations.
We have projects that we work on now with thewe work over and over again with these clients.
They've held on to these apartment complexesfor over fifty plus years.
So, you know, that's long term hold, and it'sgenerational wealth for the developer.
(28:38):
They want materials to hold up.
They want people to not turn over in theirbuildings.
They want people to stay there a lifetime or aslong as they possibly can.
So they want us to give them as much as we canso that people don't wanna leave.
And so we really do look at all the littledetails and make sure that we're trying to give
(28:58):
the tenant as much as they possibly can get.
You know, I want to go back to something elsethat you were talking about before, which was
kind of your prior experiences.
And you'd said that, you know, kind ofcaretaking.
I imagine so for me, caretaking is not theeasiest thing in the world.
If anything, would actually say it's theopposite.
(29:19):
It's hard.
How do you stay positive when it comes tocaretaking?
You said that it gives you joy, but there'salso we'll call it hard scenes or hard times
that you have to deal with.
And I don't know if that's necessarily joyfulin the moment, maybe the after.
But in the moment is what I would experience asbeing very hard.
(29:40):
How do you stay positive in those moments?
So How does that translate?
By nature, I'm a pretty positive person, so Iwake up glass full
k.
Other than glass empty.
And I always say that because my other half ismore half, you know, empty.
So I know the difference.
But I was raised with, you know, very joyousparents.
And so I was raised to be, you know, gratefuland thankful and and and with very loving
(30:05):
parents.
And so when you have that and you're raisedthat way, think, you know, I I look at
caregiving as just sort of a natural thing forme.
It doesn't feel difficult to me and I don'tblame anyone that it is difficult for because I
certainly have siblings that's not their forte.
For me, it feels like a natural calling for me.
(30:28):
It's a comfortability for me.
And even during the most difficult moments andtimes, I have tried to make joyous moments out
of even the most difficult moments.
So
So those are maybe in the personal moments.
Yeah.
How does that translate?
How does that translate then in tough momentswithin your within your business?
Or does it translate?
(30:48):
So I think caregiving is a little different ina business because, you know, you're managing
and running a business and you can care forpeople, but you can't necessarily take care of
people, if you know what I mean.
Mhmm.
Okay.
And I say that because, you know, people aregrown adults and everyone has a different level
(31:15):
of maturity and they have a different way ofhandling themselves in their personal life and
also a different way of handling themselves ina professional work environment.
So, you know, not everyone has the samephilosophy or work ethics as you all know,
running a business.
And so, you know, I was always raised you beingon time means being there early.
(31:41):
I get up very early, and I'm in work earlybecause I wanna get a lot of things done before
everyone kind of gets in.
So it translates, you know, you have to letpeople be themselves, but you also have to give
them room to grow and room to be led.
And, and I think the best way to do that, and Ifinally figured this out like a gazillion years
(32:06):
later, is to have everybody give you input as ateam and as a group and as a company of what
needs improvement.
What would you what would you do if you couldmake improvements here?
Tell us what your thoughts are.
If you're we had a meeting yesterday morning,like our monthly meeting, you know, and and I
made everybody do post it notes.
(32:27):
I want everybody to write one to two thingsthat they felt needed improvement, whatever it
is.
And we read them all out, and they're great.
They're absolutely great.
It's how we grow as a company.
So, you know, it's it's this ability to hearthings that may not be as positive and to learn
from them and grow from them and understandthat if you listen to everyone at all levels,
(32:53):
you're going to learn something about yourselfand you're going to learn something about how
to run a company.
Because everyone's trying to teach yousomething at any given moment.
And so that's kind of how I feel aboutcaregiving.
It circles back to at any given moment, sadmoment, happy moment.
I'm always going to learn a skill and I'malways gonna learn something that I didn't know
(33:16):
before.
I imagine as I was listening, I imagine that,you know, especially, let's say, the post it
note exercise, it's without initial judgment.
It's just accepting accepting whatever whateveris just is.
And also, that requires a lot of trust in thebusiness side for the employee to be able to,
(33:36):
without fear of repercussion, or without fearof judgment, right, depending on the way you're
looking at it.
So I guess there's something to be learnedabout caregiving as a superpower.
Yep.
That's my favorite of mine.
Love it.
Yeah.
And the other thing that I love is, you know,I'm sure you guys have done this, the quadrant
exercise.
(33:56):
I Which which one?
The Johari?
One where it's one to four, one being all thethings you love to do on a daily basis and four
being all the things
Delegate and elevate.
Yep.
Delegate and elevate.
Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So we do that as a whole company.
Okay?
I like to do it like once a year now.
And so we gather all that and I look at thempretty seriously and I sit down and I want to
(34:22):
have the conversation with the employee and go,hey.
Is this this in your four quadrant?
Do you really not want to do this?
Do you want me to give this to someone else?
Because if you really don't like doing this andit's really like bogging you down, I'm gonna
find someone else that likes to do it.
But I just need you to tell me if this issomething you really want me to move or keep it
(34:44):
the same because I don't wanna do it until theygive me permission to kind of do it.
That makes any sense.
Makes complete sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We love
the delegate and elevate tool as an EOScompany.
We got that from there.
Also, you were mentioning the post it activitythat the leadership team, we do this, the
Johari window where it's like something thateverybody knows, you know, both you and them
(35:06):
know, something that you only know, somethingthat they only know about you, and then
something that nobody knows.
Obviously.
And then utilizing that for us, we we put itinto a your commitment.
So at the leadership level, literally ourweekly meeting, we talk about our commitment
every week and say, I'm committed to this toget better, you know, and it is the point is
there has to be trust, Cause otherwise you'rein this situation of like, Justin didn't know
(35:30):
that and now he's upset about that thing.
It's like no Justin didn't know that and nowhe's happy that he does know and he wants to
get better at it.
Yeah and we do have like I do like to know ifthere's any issues going on or more immediately
rather than later, obviously, because you can'tfix them if you don't know about them.
And, no fear.
(35:52):
Like like, don't be fearful of anything otherthan just bring it to my attention, and we will
figure it out together.
I promise you.
And I tell everybody that here.
And so I think that's super important.
And I feel really strongly about, you know,trying to get that fourth quadrant stuff off of
people's list.
(36:13):
It may not happen immediately, may happen overyears, but I do think we work as we're hiring
new people.
We're changing roles out and adding, you know,things to people's roles.
I do want people to do what they like doing.
I don't want people to be stuck doing stuffthey don't want to do because there's nothing
worse in a job than doing stuff you hate to do.
(36:36):
And, you know, you just you're not going to getany joy.
And so
it's a great way to leave a company or get themotivation to leave a company.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, so I I look at all of that and,you know, you talked about my entrepreneur
group and I love you.
We always I make list of quotes.
We have one of the guys in my forum.
(36:56):
He is the quote master.
He comes up with he's got the most amazingmission statements on these little cards.
They're amazing.
I mean, he should be speaking on that becausehe's so good at it.
He had, I think he had, almost 4,000 employeesthat he grows company to.
So he got really, really good at, you know,these incredible mission statements.
(37:18):
But, you know, he'd come up with these, like,lines and, you know, some of them would be
hungry for accomplishment, you know, and,productive paranoia.
Like that.
So,
you know, I write these things down and Iliterally keep a list of all these, like,
amazing quotes that my whole forum comes with.
(37:39):
And, I told them, I said, one of these days,guys, we're gonna probably have a book on all
these, like, quotes from running a business,and, it's pretty funny.
So I'm sure I'm sure you guys have a bunch ofthose as well.
Our EOS, implementer, he has a whiteboard thatwe everybody puts, like, from all of his
clients puts on there, and we see it all thetime.
Freak I've journal a lot, so lots of lots ofstuff in the journal of, like, oh, yeah.
(38:03):
And then I say something like, wow.
I said that.
That's that came from me.
That's pretty wild.
Well, you mentioned not liking what you do,that that bottom quadrant.
Right?
And, like, how unhappy.
That that is when I moved back to Arizona fouryears ago, that was essentially the ethos of
what got me, you know, focused on being morepurpose driven and helping other people think
about purpose right?
And it was very much that well if you know ofyour waking life of your you being awake, it's
(38:28):
almost a quarter of your life is work.
So if you hate that thing, it's really hard tobe happy in the the other parts of your life
just simply because like you're already at sucha disconnect right across the board.
So to your point, like if you can remove thatand and obviously you gotta do hard things and
things you don't like to do and that's just alittle bit of business from time to time.
(38:49):
But if you can try to remove as much of that aspossible, oh, man.
Just such a different workforce that happens.
Just different people because they're just moreenergized, positive, and excited to go to the
office.
Yeah.
We we try.
Right?
Yes.
Absolutely.
So we we try to do that.
We want people happy.
We want people loving what they do.
And, you know, we want it to feel like asupported team.
(39:12):
So I think, you know, we share that vision andwe, you know, we all want, you know, happy
people.
So I think, you know, we all know it's veryeasy to be unhappy and it's very easy to find
things that you can be miserable about in yourjob.
And, you know, it's just important to reallyhear what people are saying, listen to what
(39:36):
they're saying, and move and make some changesthat might not be a very difficult thing for
the company to do in order to make them happy.
Happy people create happy clients.
Right?
So
that could be part of your book.
There you go.
Throw that in the quote book.
You mentioned EO.
Will is also an EOer.
What has EO done for you?
When did you start and and what has that done?
(39:58):
I know earlier you mentioned you love design,but didn't know necessarily how to run a
business at first, which inherently who would?
You it's not just something you inherentlyknow.
So what did EO what has EO done for you?
Tell you, if I had done something like EOearlier, I would have had a lot less problems
to sort out over the years.
Because I you have a whole expert panel ofpeople that have gone through similar things
(40:23):
that can give you all these wonderfulexperience shares.
So for me, I think I'm going into my seventhyear in EO.
Been with the same forum, I guess, I'm six anda half years.
Been with my same forum the entire time.
And, I've just learned so much from them andeveryone else in EO.
(40:44):
And and, you know, you get so much out of it ifyou, like I said, want to open your mind and
learn.
You know?
There are so many other people out there thatare better than I am at so many other things
and to get their knowledge and them gladly handover all their knowledge.
I mean, it's it's pretty amazing.
(41:05):
So I love that part of it.
And, it's it's been it's been pretty amazing inmy journey.
I've loved EO, and I moved to differentchapters, the different chapters of Chicago to
Westbridge and and whatnot.
I'd say the different types of people that wemeet on our journey is really impactful.
Like everyone has something, especially theshared experiences and the way those
(41:28):
experiences are shared.
So for anyone that's listening, this is not apaid advertisement whatsoever.
Ew.
This is truly this is truly a, you know, you'rean entrepreneur, look into EO.
Entrepreneurs organization really has helped.
I I don't know of many people that have saidthat EO has not helped them.
Yeah.
It's definitely helped me a bunch.
(41:49):
Yeah.
And I think And
And for that listening, it can be a paidadvertisement.
So just send the dollars, and we will, youknow, we'll mention it more often.
That's great.
I just think that any guidance you can get inrunning a business, whether that's, you know,
putting together a board of advisors or peopleyou really admire and different people that can
(42:12):
potentially guide you in any good direction,all that's really super helpful.
A 100% agree.
Justin, you think it's that time?
Yes.
I believe that it is that time.
We love to ask this question to everybody thatcomes on the show.
Marcy, if you go back twenty years, it's gonnabe 2005, what advice would you give yourself?
(42:33):
What what would you tell yourself to do orchange or think about now that you have twenty
more years of knowledge, twenty more years ofexperiences?
What what advice would you give yourself?
Seek advice.
Seek advice.
Don't be afraid to ask people for their advicebecause people are very willing to give it to
you.
You just have to ask for it.
(42:53):
I love that.
One thing I think about because we were just ata conference last week, tons of amazing ideas,
amazing advice, amazing experience shares.
It's then what you do with that, right?
It is the seek the advice and then actually dosomething with the advice, right?
You know, the whole reason of this podcast ishow can we share stories of of other people's
(43:14):
past experiences and help others get throughthings.
So I love that as a just overarchingly, bit ofadvice for all of us.
It's a good reminder.
Seek advice.
This has been a ton of fun.
If somebody wanted to get ahold of you, Marcy,what's the best way for them to do that?
I can be reached through my email, marcy,marcy,@msainteriors.com, or you can get us
(43:36):
through our website at msainteriors.com.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
And then would you like to tell the peopleanything else before we say goodbye?
I just am grateful for any and all experiencesthat I I get asked to be on a show, and, it's
I'm very grateful for you guys to have me.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
We had a blast.
This is fun, and I look forward to when I'm onthe East Coast stopping by the awesome church
(44:01):
that you get to work out of because it looksbeautiful from a little bit that I've seen.
Absolutely.
Listeners, I hope you had as good a time as wedid, and until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
(44:22):
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(44:45):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Do stadiums, you know, lots of differentrevenue streams that have different economy
(00:06):
adjust at different times.
And that's what helps you grow the business.
That's what helps you succeed during difficulttimes.
So the diversity is actually what helped youscale.
Most people would say focus, and that's whathelp you sail.
Have
you ever wondered how successful architecture,engineering, and construction company scale
(00:26):
their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, And we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
technology to scale their businesses.
(00:48):
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(01:09):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/health.
Today's guest is Marci Segal, who is thefounder and principal of MSA Interiors, a
(01:32):
leading commercial interior design firm.
She brings thirty plus years of experienceshaping spaces across multifamily housing,
student housing, senior living, affordablehousing, and other complex commercial projects.
Marci partners with top developers, real estateinvestment trusts, and institutions nationwide,
delivering designs that are both innovative andstrategically aligned with client goals.
(01:54):
Her expertise also extends to advising majormanufacturers, helping shape product lines to
meet evolving market demands.
I recognize thought leader Marcy shares herinsights through speaking engagements and in
industry collaborations.
She's an active member of EntrepreneursOrganization or EO as it's known in Baltimore,
embodying entrepreneurial leadership andinnovation in her field.
(02:15):
And with all that said, Marcy, welcome to theshow.
Thank you so much, Justin.
And, Will, I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on.
Yes.
I I said some nice things about you, but tellus the real story.
How did you get into the interior design spaceand tell us about MSA?
Interior design.
Let's see.
I was a young girl, and my mother had adifferent interior designer every single year
(02:38):
working on our house, and she I'm the onlydaughter.
So I was brought in to look at everything andgive my opinion, and it became a very
passionate thing for me from a very young age.
And so I'd work with my mom on kind of likedeveloping the house and developing my portion
of the house.
And I had a sewing room and a arts and craftsroom, and I had a lot of different areas that I
(03:03):
could be creative.
And so I was I was very creative from a youngage.
So I kind of knew what I wanted to do and justhad to get to that path and fine tune my skills
and grow those skills to become what we aretoday.
I'm always envious when somebody at such ayoung age knows what they wanna do or at least
has a good idea of where they wanna take theirlife because you have so much more runway to
(03:25):
figure it out then.
I I was gonna be super cop.
That was what I was
gonna be.
I was gonna be an astronaut.
Yes.
And neither of us have ever used those skillsets ever.
So, it's wild, to think that like somebody atsuch a young age can find that thing that they
love and then be able to just, you know, attackit and go for it.
So that's that's really cool.
So tell us about the firm.
(03:46):
So the firm is twenty four years strong and wehave an incredible team of people.
And what I say is you're only as good as yourpeople.
And when you have great people, you producegreat work.
So I think we we have grown.
I've also learned how to be a better owner,manager, and then on my skills, just really
(04:09):
learning how to be more in tune with whateveryone's needs are and trying to understand
what can make us better as a group for ourclients.
And so we do exercises and we do some trainingand we talk about different things and we're
very open about it and try to get really goodfeedback from everyone that works here.
(04:30):
And all that knowledge helps you to, like, havea happier company, I think, as as a whole.
Okay.
So you're obviously passionate about people.
That that's very obvious.
And when we had the calls beforehand, that was,you know, it was beaming off you how much
passion you had for your people.
So what does that look like in true practice?
A lot of people talk about, oh, I care about mypeople.
(04:51):
My people matter.
They're my difference maker, all these things.
But like what when you put it down to brasstacks, what how does that actually be
demonstrated in the firm?
Well, I'm gonna turn the company overeventually to my employees.
And so I want my employees to continue to growthe company and build the company and take it
to multiple generations.
(05:12):
And the way you do that is with really goodpeople that care about the business and
understand that not only are they going to workhard, but they're also going to get something
that's really tangible going forward.
And so and I think and feel that everyonehere's earned that right to have a portion of
the company.
So it's very important for me to continue itthat way.
(05:35):
And I've seen other design firms, you know, thehead person, you know, has been there for, you
know, thirty, forty years, and they decidethey're gonna retire and they don't give the
business to their employees.
They just kind of shut the doors or sell thebuilding they're in, and then their employees
have to kind of scramble.
I think there's just way too many other optionsthat I think can work better.
(05:57):
And if you have a strong team and they staywith you for a long period of time, there's no
reason why they can't be taking over yourcompany.
So
Yeah.
That that's really putting your money whereyour mouth is, as they say, literally.
That's amazing.
In the twenty four years strong, when did thatidea start, you know, percolating of like, this
(06:18):
is what I'm going do.
Cause most owners, right?
They start the business.
They want to, you know, create that freedom forthemselves.
They grow the business, they scale it a littlebit.
And then there is some form of exit strategy.
What that means could be tons of differentthings.
In your case, you're saying, hey, like, let letme pass it down to the people that are already
here.
Is that, you know, when did that idea kind ofpop up?
(06:39):
So I kind of knew that I was going to do thatprobably maybe eight years ago.
I had it in my mind when I was doing estateplanning.
I don't have my own children so I have lots ofother people's children's, my brother's and my
significant other.
So I wanted to really build something that Icould turn over and, you know, to grow and
(07:07):
build it and have people step up into positionsthat I felt could really take the company to
the next level.
And so when I decided to do that, it reallycame about when I was doing estate planning
because, as you know, you have to kind offigure all that stuff out.
And, you have to have who's your successor andwho's taking over and how's it going to work
(07:27):
and, you know, how do you do that?
And so all of that kind of had to be thoughtout when I was doing the updating of my estate
planning.
And with that, I also went to a program atPrinceton where I everyone that got into the
program is there to exit and sell.
And I told them right up front before I appliedwhen they interviewed me, I said, I'm not
(07:51):
interested in selling.
I'm interested in growing until I can'tmentally do this anymore or until, you know,
I'm not physically able.
And so they were they were like, that's a newone for us.
And I said, but I have another idea that I wantto build and build it to sell.
So when I was there, I presented that idea andeverybody loved it.
(08:15):
And I have been working on it since.
And hopefully we'll be launching.
It's a training program for designers.
And so I'm hoping to launch that, you know, inthe next few months.
And I've been diligently working on italongside of my business and self financing it
and just, you know, really working with amentor because it's always great to have a
(08:37):
mentor in a different arena when you don't knowthe arena very well.
And when I presented it, he was one of theentrepreneurs, a serial entrepreneur that has a
lot of expertise in the learning managementarea.
So he jumped right on board, and we have callslike two to three times a month and really been
honing in on all the little details of that newcompany.
(08:58):
So it's very excited about it.
And that's the company I'm building to sell,which was an offshoot of basically what we do
in our existing company.
Interesting.
So you're not only running the firm, you havethis other learning platform, like this
learning management platform, sounds like.
Yep.
Did that come out of necessity or thatliterally just came as an idea of like, I don't
(09:20):
like, I wanna train my people, but I could dothis externally as well and then exit.
We were already training our people.
So it was already what we were doinginternally.
We had started these processes that were youknow, when you're out there and you're seeking
a lot of new creative people, it's really hardto tell what level someone's on, even if their
(09:44):
portfolio is spectacular, because we work inRevit mostly.
And so because we work in Revit, Revit is oneof those programs that you're never gonna know
the entire Revit.
It's just one of those types of programs.
There's just so many layers to it.
And so architects use it differently thaninterior designers.
(10:05):
The program was actually developed forarchitects, but we're designers using it.
So we use it in a different way than architectsuse it.
And so because of that, we have to create ourown libraries.
We we spent nine years creating our own libraryof things that we need for interior design for
Revit, not what you can pull off the Internetfor that's already existing.
(10:29):
And so because of that, we had already createda library that was we knew was pretty valuable.
And I was like, I don't really want to sell mymy library.
I mean, that's kind of like somethingproprietary.
We've built it based on what our types ofprojects are.
But I do have these the way we're trainingpeople, every single person that walks in the
(10:51):
door that's a designer here, we train them torender every single job in house.
So we don't ship it overseas anymore.
We don't have a third party doing it anymore.
We're actually doing it as we're designing andwe're moving along through the process.
So we knew that we were doing something greatbecause our clients were, like, super excited
(11:11):
about it.
They're actually getting to see this, like,super realistic visualization of our job.
They're like, this is amazing.
We want this on every job.
Can you make sure you include this in everysingle project that you do?
And we're like, yeah.
And so we started doing that.
We give it to everyone.
So everyone gets that beautiful multiplerenderings of each of the different spaces.
(11:32):
And you can really see as you're going throughthe design process, things that you might wanna
change like, oh, let's do the storefront inblack.
And then we can add black to this back areaover by the mail and package area.
But let's see what it looks like if we do thisto it and you can just instantly change it up
and see it visually and make big decisions.
(11:53):
So that's what we started doing.
And we obviously know a lot about productbecause we develop a lot of products.
So we're incredibly knowledgeable about theprice points of products.
So when construction costs went up, everybodywanted everything else to go down.
Okay?
So you have to know what you're working with.
You need to know what your price points arewhen you're selecting.
(12:15):
So we basically when we're showing and workingas a team with the developer and we all pick
the materials together, mostly, you know, thedeveloper picks what we present, we're telling
them what the price points are right then andthere.
So if you like something that's a dollar 50,but you love something that's $3, you got to
(12:35):
justify the price.
So a square foot that is.
So when you're looking at, you know, 600 units,that little cost differential can bring the
pricing down considerably.
So you have to really put the money where youreally want to get the most excitement.
And so we're showing those price points.
Right.
We're literally putting like the price right onthe back as we're showing them to the client.
(13:00):
Then they're like, well, what's this price?
I really love that, but it looks reallyexpensive.
Well, that's like $4 and $75, you know, $4.75 asquare foot.
They go, well, I don't think I like thatexcitement as much.
I don't think it's worth the differentialthere.
So then we go back to the lower price point.
So you're basically doing the value engineeringas you're selecting.
(13:22):
And that is the difference and something thatreally set us apart from a lot of other groups.
Yep.
No.
That's smart.
It's this is so silly.
They have those, like, those little videoswhere it's like, build your ultimate fast food
meal.
And it's like, for $5, you can get a Big Mac or$4, you get a Whopper and that goes down and
(13:43):
then you bill you only have x amount ofdollars.
Right?
The concept's the same except just that muchlarger scale and, you know, so many more
products.
Right?
Because like, oh, this particular product, thatparticular product, and then all the different
aspects of of a design go in and say like, hey,where do you wanna spend the dollars?
Like, is this, tile just so good that it'sworth the extra and you'll pull back somewhere
(14:06):
else?
That makes sense of sense.
You know, we're showing wall coverings and, youknow, they may wanna v e it to paint.
We can make those decisions as we're kind ofmoving through that fast process of selecting
materials.
So we may select the wall covering, the vinylwall covering, and then we may put on there
another list underneath of it for the scheduleof finishes, value engineer option, paint.
(14:31):
And here's the paint color so that they haveit.
It's ready to go.
We don't have to come back and start fromground zero.
So that's all part of our training.
It's letting designers know that they have toknow what price points are.
You can't just pick anymore whatever you want.
We're we're working the budgets no matter howexpensive the project is, and you have to be
able to come in on those budgets.
(14:52):
And our goal is to literally come in exactlywhere we tell the client we're gonna come in.
And that's that's that's a hard thing to do,but we do it every single time.
Love that.
You you mentioned something, and I've heardthis before.
I'm talking about rendering, where you weresending it overseas or you were sending it
somewhere else and then you bought it in house.
(15:13):
Can you talk about can you tell me why thatdecision?
There's a lot of opinions on this, and I'm justreally curious about Yeah.
What made you go that
We don't do it at all anymore.
But why we were doing it before was because wedidn't have the rendering programs as developed
as they are now.
Okay.
So now we can work with Revit and Enscape andwe can really create what we need to in house.
(15:39):
And the reason we sent it overseas is becausethey're in a different time zone.
So basically, we could give it to them when weleave or during the day.
And when we come back in the morning, it'sdone.
Oh, so that was like a big factor.
So they're basically working for us into theevening, but it's actually on their daytime.
So
And they're and so okay.
(15:59):
So that was when you were sending it overseas.
And you said that you brought it back in house.
So We did.
And the reason we brought it back in house andI feel bad because I love the guys that were
doing the renderings for us.
But there was so much back and forth that ittook the designer finally we figured out we
could just the back and forth and the makingthe notes and correcting everything, lighting,
(16:24):
shading, everything else, we can just do itourselves.
Let's just bring it in house, do it ourselves,move it along the process, put it in there,
create something that we can actuallyvisualize, the client can visualize.
And when you're done, it actually the roomlooks so close to what our rendering is that a
lot of the clients are, using it for marketingpurposes.
(16:46):
So
Did the technology was was it also becausetechnology improved, we'll say enough for so
much that 100%.
Effective?
Okay.
100% technology.
The software, the technology, the ability to beable to do it in our office was just so much
more effective.
Yeah.
And you said there was so much back and forth.
(17:08):
Was that the time when you sort of reevaluatedso you were fine?
And then when you realized the back and forthwas happening, that's when you reevaluate
whether or not to invest more in technology.
Yep.
And we did invest heavily into technology andsoftware and really spent a lot more money.
I would say, you know, when you look at yourexpenses for a business, you know, personnel is
(17:31):
always, you know, the biggest.
We own our building.
So, you know, luckily, we bought that at a veryit's an old church, by the way, from the
eighteen fifties, as you can see behind me.
But we have low overhead.
You know, personnel is our biggest overhead.
And beside personnel, IT and software is ournext big nut.
So, you know, when you look at, you know,running a business, you're looking at all these
(17:53):
things.
You're looking at the profits.
You're looking at the margins.
You're looking at where you're coming inconstantly.
You're constantly looking at that stuff becauseit's super important to run a successful
business over a long period of time.
You're planning.
You're having financial internal meetings.
You're having financial external meetings.
You're having a lot of meetings to plan and hitnumbers.
(18:14):
And, you know, and I think one of the thingsthat I learned during the o eight eleven time
where I just absolutely got clobbered, I keptall my employees on, didn't pay myself for over
three years, kept them all at the same salary.
You learn.
I probably wouldn't do that again, but, it feltgood at the time, but I was, like, pinching
(18:35):
pennies for myself.
And, and, basically, you you learn a lot abouthow to run a business.
I had too many eggs in one basket.
And when it hit that market, it clobbered me.
So I promised that myself that I would do fiverevenue streams, and that even immersed down to
(18:56):
eight and then to 10.
So I had eight to 10 revenue streams coming in.
And that's why we have the senior living, thestudent housing, the multifamily affordable
housing, the market rate, you know, multifamilyhousing.
We do data centers.
We do stadiums.
You know, lots of different revenue streamsthat have different economy adjust at different
(19:17):
times.
And that's what helps you grow the business.
That's what helps you succeed during difficulttimes.
So the diversity is actually what helped youscale.
Most people would say focus, and that's whathelp you sail.
And learning how to run a business because Ididn't know how to run a business.
I knew how to do creative.
I did not know how to run a business.
(19:37):
And when you guys were talking about, like,what you wanted to do when you were young, you
know, tying it all back in.
My I was very good at math and science, funnyenough.
And so but I had I was an artist and a creativeperson.
And so my mother had me tested.
I had all these tests taken to see what I mightexcel at.
And it all said science and math.
(19:58):
And over to the far side said creative,something creative.
And my mother's like, do you want to go tomedical school?
Do you want to be a scientist?
You know, you know, it's showing that you're sogood at math and science.
And I said, I didn't need a test to tell methat.
I knew that because of my grades.
I said, I like it.
I like math and science.
I actually love math and science, but I don'thave the passion for it that I do being a
(20:22):
designer.
So I had a passion for doing graphic design,for doing interior design, and doing art
projects.
That was where my passion lied as a young girl.
And so I went with my passion.
And as you guys know, when you run a businessand you have passion for it, it's a very big
difference than just working on a business.
(20:43):
Just as it's just I love it.
I really, really love it.
And so I think, you know, you want all yourpeople and your teams to bring that excitement
and joy to your clients.
And so that's what I think our team does.
Everyone brings a lot of energy and a lot ofjoy to every single project.
And just like myself, all my creative people,they like diversity in projects.
(21:09):
Okay?
They wanna see, you know, they want to tryworking on many different things.
They don't want to be just stuck in one avenueof design.
So that's sort of the joy for them as well asbeing able to work on these cool and exciting
projects that are all very different.
And if they worked for a very, very large firm,they'd be stuck in one area of interest and
(21:31):
that would be it.
And they wouldn't get the opportunity to workon all these kind of fun and exciting different
types of projects.
So in essence, you're helping create wellrounded individuals essentially, and helping
run the business.
I think that might be a good segue to somethingthat you had said before to us, which is that
you are a natural caregiver.
(21:54):
For for the uninformed, how would you definecaregiving?
And can you explain to someone that's So not anatural caregiver?
So I have been unfortunate to and fortunate tohave cared for both my parents, as well as my
aunt, and also my nephew who was in an accidentwith a brain injury.
(22:15):
So all of those different experiences bring alot of maturity and a lot of skill set that
you're learning.
You're constantly learning because it's a newchannel that you've never been down before.
And so you have to be very open to learning newthings from other people that have more
experience in that arena than you do.
(22:36):
And I actually get a lot of joy out of it.
And so when you say natural caregiving, that'swhat I mean.
I get incredible joy bringing and helpingsomeone that's in need.
And, and I've done it a lot and I feel it's notit feels good for me and I hope it feel it felt
(22:56):
good for them.
But, you know, when I walk in and I would seemy mother's face light up and my aunt's face
light up and I made it a daily occurrence to bethere every day in between my crazy work
schedule for both my mother and my father.
And then with my aunt, I just literally wouldput it on the schedule as if it's a meeting so
(23:16):
that I could get there.
And then, of course, if, you know, I needed tobe there for something more immediate, then I
would just drop everything and do it.
But I really get a lot of joy out ofcaregiving.
It's it's like a special feeling that I can'treproduce in anything else, and it feels very
natural for me.
It's not forced.
How does that translate to the business side?
So caregiving, you obviously you have a carefor your people, so that was inherent.
(23:40):
So what is this natural ability that that isfulfilling to you?
How does that come out in the business?
Well, it not only comes out to my team, but Ithink it also comes out to the client.
I think, we're very, very passionate about thework that we do and making it have good
(24:00):
outcome.
So for instance, we work on a job.
I like to go back a year later and talk to theproperty manager and find out what's working,
what's not working.
I also like to go back and talk to themaintenance manager and find out what are you
having problems with?
What what's giving you a hard time inmaintenance in the units or in the amenity
(24:23):
area?
So I wanna learn.
I wanna always learn from whatever we're doing.
You know, the caregiving part of it is is thatyou want everyone else in the company to learn
as well.
And you have to be open to hearing somecriticism and you have to be open to, you know,
pushing your design skills as far as you canpush them and being open to knowledge from
(24:46):
other people.
And that's really also in my actual caregiving.
That's where I would gain a lot of things.
I would get a lot of new and great tidbits fromlooking online or talking to different people
that had gone through the same thing and,really getting that sort of support knowledge
from other people and learning how to, youknow, interact with whoever it is that you're
(25:11):
caregiving.
Because each person has a different need.
And I had never experienced any of them before.
So they were all new and invaluable, justreally invaluable.
When you think of the that work, your, your,the impact that you have, you're obviously
people living in places.
If it is affordable housing or market rate orwhat have you, you know, what is the impact
(25:37):
that that interiors have?
Like when you look at this, because you cantell that there's a deep passion, right?
A deep amount of empathy for other humanbeings.
Impact has to be the goal, right?
Like that is inherently the, how can I be asimpactful as possible?
At least that's what it feels like.
So what, when you see the business,specifically on the firm side, what is the
(25:58):
impact that you're driving for?
Yeah, great question.
What we like to do is to do some research andwe like to go to the community where the
building is going to be.
Talk to people.
Find out what the community's needs are.
What are they missing?
What kind of things would they want in thebuilding?
You know, if you're putting a new building infor affordable housing and you're working with
(26:22):
an affordable housing group, they're going totell you what they want.
But I also like to go to the area where it'sgoing to be and really talk to the people that
live there and have lived there for a long timeand really find out what would be beneficial
for them in the building as far as amenities,services, any kind of programs that might be
running into that particular building, andreally try to create and and carve those things
(26:45):
out in the way that we design and cut up thespace and and utilize the building, trying to
get the most out of it for everyone that'sgonna live there.
Like, you know, you're looking you're lookingat the audience.
You know, is this gonna be a lot of aging inplace people in an affordable housing building
with, wheelchairs and walkers?
And, you know, you you're gonna look at are wegoing to have more seniors?
(27:06):
We want to make sure it's easy to get to thebathroom from your bedroom.
So that path is like a direct path rather thanthrough a closet or things of that nature.
So it's really just about small nuances that wework through.
And also just even in the amenity area, are wegonna have a kitchen?
Are meals going to be delivered?
(27:26):
Are they gonna be having, like, senior mealswhere somebody delivers them and prepares them
and and drops them off and people can eattogether and get socialized?
Or are we gonna have, like, a gaming area, youknow, geared towards, you know, gamers and
have, you know, the younger audience?
You know, it's just taking a deeper look atjust the marketing information that you're
(27:48):
getting from the client and really looking atthe community and seeing what those needs are
and the competition and seeing what they'reoffering and and and really trying to give
something better and greater.
I think the term the term that I I think theterm is walking a mile in someone else's shoes.
Yeah.
I love that.
I love that statement because it's so true inthis case.
(28:11):
You know, we're building typically, thebuildings that we're working on have a very
long term hold.
The client's gonna be holding on to it a verylong time.
It could be generations.
We have projects that we work on now with thewe work over and over again with these clients.
They've held on to these apartment complexesfor over fifty plus years.
So, you know, that's long term hold, and it'sgenerational wealth for the developer.
(28:38):
They want materials to hold up.
They want people to not turn over in theirbuildings.
They want people to stay there a lifetime or aslong as they possibly can.
So they want us to give them as much as we canso that people don't wanna leave.
And so we really do look at all the littledetails and make sure that we're trying to give
(28:58):
the tenant as much as they possibly can get.
You know, I want to go back to something elsethat you were talking about before, which was
kind of your prior experiences.
And you'd said that, you know, kind ofcaretaking.
I imagine so for me, caretaking is not theeasiest thing in the world.
If anything, would actually say it's theopposite.
(29:19):
It's hard.
How do you stay positive when it comes tocaretaking?
You said that it gives you joy, but there'salso we'll call it hard scenes or hard times
that you have to deal with.
And I don't know if that's necessarily joyfulin the moment, maybe the after.
But in the moment is what I would experience asbeing very hard.
(29:40):
How do you stay positive in those moments?
So How does that translate?
By nature, I'm a pretty positive person, so Iwake up glass full
k.
Other than glass empty.
And I always say that because my other half ismore half, you know, empty.
So I know the difference.
But I was raised with, you know, very joyousparents.
And so I was raised to be, you know, gratefuland thankful and and and with very loving
(30:05):
parents.
And so when you have that and you're raisedthat way, think, you know, I I look at
caregiving as just sort of a natural thing forme.
It doesn't feel difficult to me and I don'tblame anyone that it is difficult for because I
certainly have siblings that's not their forte.
For me, it feels like a natural calling for me.
(30:28):
It's a comfortability for me.
And even during the most difficult moments andtimes, I have tried to make joyous moments out
of even the most difficult moments.
So
So those are maybe in the personal moments.
Yeah.
How does that translate?
How does that translate then in tough momentswithin your within your business?
Or does it translate?
(30:48):
So I think caregiving is a little different ina business because, you know, you're managing
and running a business and you can care forpeople, but you can't necessarily take care of
people, if you know what I mean.
Mhmm.
Okay.
And I say that because, you know, people aregrown adults and everyone has a different level
(31:15):
of maturity and they have a different way ofhandling themselves in their personal life and
also a different way of handling themselves ina professional work environment.
So, you know, not everyone has the samephilosophy or work ethics as you all know,
running a business.
And so, you know, I was always raised you beingon time means being there early.
(31:41):
I get up very early, and I'm in work earlybecause I wanna get a lot of things done before
everyone kind of gets in.
So it translates, you know, you have to letpeople be themselves, but you also have to give
them room to grow and room to be led.
And, and I think the best way to do that, and Ifinally figured this out like a gazillion years
(32:06):
later, is to have everybody give you input as ateam and as a group and as a company of what
needs improvement.
What would you what would you do if you couldmake improvements here?
Tell us what your thoughts are.
If you're we had a meeting yesterday morning,like our monthly meeting, you know, and and I
made everybody do post it notes.
(32:27):
I want everybody to write one to two thingsthat they felt needed improvement, whatever it
is.
And we read them all out, and they're great.
They're absolutely great.
It's how we grow as a company.
So, you know, it's it's this ability to hearthings that may not be as positive and to learn
from them and grow from them and understandthat if you listen to everyone at all levels,
(32:53):
you're going to learn something about yourselfand you're going to learn something about how
to run a company.
Because everyone's trying to teach yousomething at any given moment.
And so that's kind of how I feel aboutcaregiving.
It circles back to at any given moment, sadmoment, happy moment.
I'm always going to learn a skill and I'malways gonna learn something that I didn't know
(33:16):
before.
I imagine as I was listening, I imagine that,you know, especially, let's say, the post it
note exercise, it's without initial judgment.
It's just accepting accepting whatever whateveris just is.
And also, that requires a lot of trust in thebusiness side for the employee to be able to,
(33:36):
without fear of repercussion, or without fearof judgment, right, depending on the way you're
looking at it.
So I guess there's something to be learnedabout caregiving as a superpower.
Yep.
That's my favorite of mine.
Love it.
Yeah.
And the other thing that I love is, you know,I'm sure you guys have done this, the quadrant
exercise.
(33:56):
I Which which one?
The Johari?
One where it's one to four, one being all thethings you love to do on a daily basis and four
being all the things
Delegate and elevate.
Yep.
Delegate and elevate.
Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So we do that as a whole company.
Okay?
I like to do it like once a year now.
And so we gather all that and I look at thempretty seriously and I sit down and I want to
(34:22):
have the conversation with the employee and go,hey.
Is this this in your four quadrant?
Do you really not want to do this?
Do you want me to give this to someone else?
Because if you really don't like doing this andit's really like bogging you down, I'm gonna
find someone else that likes to do it.
But I just need you to tell me if this issomething you really want me to move or keep it
(34:44):
the same because I don't wanna do it until theygive me permission to kind of do it.
That makes any sense.
Makes complete sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We love
the delegate and elevate tool as an EOScompany.
We got that from there.
Also, you were mentioning the post it activitythat the leadership team, we do this, the
Johari window where it's like something thateverybody knows, you know, both you and them
(35:06):
know, something that you only know, somethingthat they only know about you, and then
something that nobody knows.
Obviously.
And then utilizing that for us, we we put itinto a your commitment.
So at the leadership level, literally ourweekly meeting, we talk about our commitment
every week and say, I'm committed to this toget better, you know, and it is the point is
there has to be trust, Cause otherwise you'rein this situation of like, Justin didn't know
(35:30):
that and now he's upset about that thing.
It's like no Justin didn't know that and nowhe's happy that he does know and he wants to
get better at it.
Yeah and we do have like I do like to know ifthere's any issues going on or more immediately
rather than later, obviously, because you can'tfix them if you don't know about them.
And, no fear.
(35:52):
Like like, don't be fearful of anything otherthan just bring it to my attention, and we will
figure it out together.
I promise you.
And I tell everybody that here.
And so I think that's super important.
And I feel really strongly about, you know,trying to get that fourth quadrant stuff off of
people's list.
(36:13):
It may not happen immediately, may happen overyears, but I do think we work as we're hiring
new people.
We're changing roles out and adding, you know,things to people's roles.
I do want people to do what they like doing.
I don't want people to be stuck doing stuffthey don't want to do because there's nothing
worse in a job than doing stuff you hate to do.
(36:36):
And, you know, you just you're not going to getany joy.
And so
it's a great way to leave a company or get themotivation to leave a company.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, so I I look at all of that and,you know, you talked about my entrepreneur
group and I love you.
We always I make list of quotes.
We have one of the guys in my forum.
(36:56):
He is the quote master.
He comes up with he's got the most amazingmission statements on these little cards.
They're amazing.
I mean, he should be speaking on that becausehe's so good at it.
He had, I think he had, almost 4,000 employeesthat he grows company to.
So he got really, really good at, you know,these incredible mission statements.
(37:18):
But, you know, he'd come up with these, like,lines and, you know, some of them would be
hungry for accomplishment, you know, and,productive paranoia.
Like that.
So,
you know, I write these things down and Iliterally keep a list of all these, like,
amazing quotes that my whole forum comes with.
(37:39):
And, I told them, I said, one of these days,guys, we're gonna probably have a book on all
these, like, quotes from running a business,and, it's pretty funny.
So I'm sure I'm sure you guys have a bunch ofthose as well.
Our EOS, implementer, he has a whiteboard thatwe everybody puts, like, from all of his
clients puts on there, and we see it all thetime.
Freak I've journal a lot, so lots of lots ofstuff in the journal of, like, oh, yeah.
(38:03):
And then I say something like, wow.
I said that.
That's that came from me.
That's pretty wild.
Well, you mentioned not liking what you do,that that bottom quadrant.
Right?
And, like, how unhappy.
That that is when I moved back to Arizona fouryears ago, that was essentially the ethos of
what got me, you know, focused on being morepurpose driven and helping other people think
about purpose right?
And it was very much that well if you know ofyour waking life of your you being awake, it's
(38:28):
almost a quarter of your life is work.
So if you hate that thing, it's really hard tobe happy in the the other parts of your life
just simply because like you're already at sucha disconnect right across the board.
So to your point, like if you can remove thatand and obviously you gotta do hard things and
things you don't like to do and that's just alittle bit of business from time to time.
(38:49):
But if you can try to remove as much of that aspossible, oh, man.
Just such a different workforce that happens.
Just different people because they're just moreenergized, positive, and excited to go to the
office.
Yeah.
We we try.
Right?
Yes.
Absolutely.
So we we try to do that.
We want people happy.
We want people loving what they do.
And, you know, we want it to feel like asupported team.
(39:12):
So I think, you know, we share that vision andwe, you know, we all want, you know, happy
people.
So I think, you know, we all know it's veryeasy to be unhappy and it's very easy to find
things that you can be miserable about in yourjob.
And, you know, it's just important to reallyhear what people are saying, listen to what
(39:36):
they're saying, and move and make some changesthat might not be a very difficult thing for
the company to do in order to make them happy.
Happy people create happy clients.
Right?
So
that could be part of your book.
There you go.
Throw that in the quote book.
You mentioned EO.
Will is also an EOer.
What has EO done for you?
When did you start and and what has that done?
(39:58):
I know earlier you mentioned you love design,but didn't know necessarily how to run a
business at first, which inherently who would?
You it's not just something you inherentlyknow.
So what did EO what has EO done for you?
Tell you, if I had done something like EOearlier, I would have had a lot less problems
to sort out over the years.
Because I you have a whole expert panel ofpeople that have gone through similar things
(40:23):
that can give you all these wonderfulexperience shares.
So for me, I think I'm going into my seventhyear in EO.
Been with the same forum, I guess, I'm six anda half years.
Been with my same forum the entire time.
And, I've just learned so much from them andeveryone else in EO.
(40:44):
And and, you know, you get so much out of it ifyou, like I said, want to open your mind and
learn.
You know?
There are so many other people out there thatare better than I am at so many other things
and to get their knowledge and them gladly handover all their knowledge.
I mean, it's it's pretty amazing.
(41:05):
So I love that part of it.
And, it's it's been it's been pretty amazing inmy journey.
I've loved EO, and I moved to differentchapters, the different chapters of Chicago to
Westbridge and and whatnot.
I'd say the different types of people that wemeet on our journey is really impactful.
Like everyone has something, especially theshared experiences and the way those
(41:28):
experiences are shared.
So for anyone that's listening, this is not apaid advertisement whatsoever.
Ew.
This is truly this is truly a, you know, you'rean entrepreneur, look into EO.
Entrepreneurs organization really has helped.
I I don't know of many people that have saidthat EO has not helped them.
Yeah.
It's definitely helped me a bunch.
(41:49):
Yeah.
And I think And
And for that listening, it can be a paidadvertisement.
So just send the dollars, and we will, youknow, we'll mention it more often.
That's great.
I just think that any guidance you can get inrunning a business, whether that's, you know,
putting together a board of advisors or peopleyou really admire and different people that can
(42:12):
potentially guide you in any good direction,all that's really super helpful.
A 100% agree.
Justin, you think it's that time?
Yes.
I believe that it is that time.
We love to ask this question to everybody thatcomes on the show.
Marcy, if you go back twenty years, it's gonnabe 2005, what advice would you give yourself?
(42:33):
What what would you tell yourself to do orchange or think about now that you have twenty
more years of knowledge, twenty more years ofexperiences?
What what advice would you give yourself?
Seek advice.
Seek advice.
Don't be afraid to ask people for their advicebecause people are very willing to give it to
you.
You just have to ask for it.
(42:53):
I love that.
One thing I think about because we were just ata conference last week, tons of amazing ideas,
amazing advice, amazing experience shares.
It's then what you do with that, right?
It is the seek the advice and then actually dosomething with the advice, right?
You know, the whole reason of this podcast ishow can we share stories of of other people's
(43:14):
past experiences and help others get throughthings.
So I love that as a just overarchingly, bit ofadvice for all of us.
It's a good reminder.
Seek advice.
This has been a ton of fun.
If somebody wanted to get ahold of you, Marcy,what's the best way for them to do that?
I can be reached through my email, marcy,marcy,@msainteriors.com, or you can get us
(43:36):
through our website at msainteriors.com.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
And then would you like to tell the peopleanything else before we say goodbye?
I just am grateful for any and all experiencesthat I I get asked to be on a show, and, it's
I'm very grateful for you guys to have me.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
We had a blast.
This is fun, and I look forward to when I'm onthe East Coast stopping by the awesome church
(44:01):
that you get to work out of because it looksbeautiful from a little bit that I've seen.
Absolutely.
Listeners, I hope you had as good a time as wedid, and until next time.
Adios.
Adios.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
(44:22):
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
(44:45):
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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