August 5, 2025 • 44 mins
Amanda Schneider discusses her career journey and insights into the future of work. She highlights her transition to Sandow, effective hiring strategies, and insights from her TEDx talk and generational research. The episode covers the trust gap and challenges of hybrid work environments, emphasizing metrics, scorecards, and personal work preferences. Amanda also offers advice on adapting to cultural changes in workplace models, especially for extroverts and introverts in remote settings. The episode wraps up with ThinkLab insights, closing remarks, and encouragement to share the episode, touching on scaling a business and improving company technology.
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(00:02):
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:27):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(00:49):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Welcome back to another episode of buildingscale, specifically the building connection
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series where I get to talk to awesome leadersand just, I think this episode highlights just
badasses that are out there doing really coolstuff.
Today, I get to talk to Amanda Schneider.
She founded ThinkLab, the only research entitywholly focused on the built world, the built
environment.
She's a really respected leader and has been ina ton of publications that are very
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prestigious, including Forbes, MIT SloanManagement Review, Interior Design Magazine,
Metropolis.
She's kinda done it all all, Ted Talker, is theeasiest way to put that.
One that, got lots of people anxious.
Let's put it that way, and you'll learn moreabout this as you'll see the episode, which was
really cool.
And and we got to have a a great conversationand really talk about just where the future is
(01:58):
taking us with the workplace, what employeesare looking for, where we can just be better at
understanding that people are different, peoplewant different things, and, like, we can allow
that to happen.
Obviously, big person about structure myself,but everybody's structure can be different.
Right?
So this is a really, really fun episode.
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And and we agreed that at the end of theepisode that if if we saw each other in person,
we would hug.
So that that means that we've we've connecteddigitally.
I I grade my connections when it's just adigital interaction.
It's like, hey.
If I actually meet that person, is it just likea, you know, a hi or a handshake or or
whatever?
So, always looking to be better digitally, butsomething about being in person changes it.
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I'll also host of the popular podcast designsNerd Anonymous.
So if you're listening to that and you're adesigner or or you're not a designer, I
recommend giving that listen.
And you can find her TED talk generallyanywhere on the Internet.
We'll put that all in the show notes and andall that fun stuff.
But had a really, really good time and a blasttalking to her, so I hope you do as well.
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Alright, Amanda.
You were in industrial design.
That's what you did at one point.
And then you said, you know what?
I actually love research.
How did that transition occur?
That seems they seem a little bit far apartfrom each other.
How how did that work?
They do.
I often say I'm a designer by degree, ajournalist by accident, and a researcher by
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choice.
I'll kinda walk you through that transition.
It's a it's a great tagline.
Right?
It kinda tells you who who I am.
So designer by degree, I went into industrialdesign, product design.
My degree is from University of IllinoisChampaign Urbana.
And I I've always had kind of a creative mind,but didn't really know what I wanted to do.
So I met a woman who was a product designer.
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Her name is Amory Conrado.
I'm pretty sure she has no idea what an effectshe had on my business or my life, really.
And Well, shout out to her now then.
Now she knows.
Exactly.
Well, now well, wait.
I just had to find her, but there's LinkedIn.
So we can find her now, theoretically.
But she talked about why she loved design andindustrial design specifically because every
day is a new adventure.
One day she's designing a baby's bath seat, soshe's observing a mother bathing her child.
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Another day she's designing a scuba mask, soshe has to take scuba lessons to figure out
what might and might not work.
And I just fell in love with that profession.
I was like, that is what I wanna do.
Now fast forward, I got into school, and I waslike, I cannot sit behind a sketchbook.
I am designed to talk to people.
And I realized what got me interested inindustrial design was not the like, sketching
and being behind a sketchbook and the creativeside of it as much as it was the research side
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of it and really connecting it with business.
Well, I kind of launched into my career reallyat a tumultuous time in the furniture industry.
I started in the furniture industry when, ifyou remember, back in 2001 was the dot bomb.
As these .com crash happened, the dot bomb, youcan all imagine, was not great for the
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furniture category.
So my boss at the time, there's a whole funnystory about a broken foot and my first day on
the job that we can get into if you want to,but there was a lot of transition happening at
the company where during a rebrand, marketerswere getting promoted, and a lot of the design
staff was being let go, for a veryunderstandable reason.
And so about a year into that, my boss sat medown and said, Amanda, do you wanna stay in
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design or shift into marketing?
You seem to have an aptitude for marketing.
And I'm thinking designers get fired andmarketers get promoted.
Like, I'll do that.
So they paid for me to go back to school andget my MBA, and I helped them start up the
first ever market research team.
And that has evolved into journalism again byaccident, and I ended up starting a research
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company in 2011, to serve specifically theinteriors industry.
And that absolutely blew up on its own.
I sold it to Sandow, the parent company ofinterior design, Metropolis, Design Milk, a lot
of different design media companies.
And for the last six years, I have been runningthat company on behalf of Sandow.
It is called Thinklab.
And so that is kind of my quick story.
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Designer by degree, journalist by accident,researcher by choice.
That's quite the tale.
Smart on you.
Design marketing, well, it seems like there'sone obvious option here.
And then getting to go back to school andgetting that paid for is always a fun well,
people that enjoy that is fun.
I'll put it that way.
Absolutely.
And and I feel like it's so important.
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I feel like there's not enough connectionbetween design and business, and I think, you
know, my whole team would tell you they'reoften, like, the most creative business people
in the room or the flip of that, where they arethe, most business minded creatives in the
room, depending on what room they're in.
So I think a lot of our success has really beenas translators between business needs and how
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design can help that.
Being that your podcast is focused on the AECindustry, I hope we spark some of that here
today in this dialogue.
Yeah.
No.
For sure.
I I frequently say that 90% of problems inlife, but in business certainly, are solved by
communication, right?
Just how do you communicate?
How do you set great expectations?
How do you do those things?
Right?
They just solve so many problems.
So when somebody understands the business sideas well as the creative side, that is
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inherently that.
Can I explain to you why this makes sense as acreative, but also as a business side of it?
Because then that's the best of both worlds,which is great communication, is essentially
what that creates.
I would agree.
I would agree.
Yeah.
So started the research company and then grewthat a little bit and then and sold to got
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acquired.
But what was that transition like?
Obviously, going from design to then going backto school, then, hey.
I'm doing this research thing, and now, oh,somebody wants to buy that from me, which has
gotta be a great feeling.
What But did that look like?
What did that transition look like?
Yeah.
Acquisitions are tough.
I'm not gonna sugarcoat it.
Anytime you've been out on your own making allof your decisions, and then you go to having a
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boss again and having to integrate with othercompanies, which is a little bit different than
being on your own.
So transition was tough, but, obviously, I'mstill here six years later.
So it's been really fun to learn how to go frombeing a company on our own to really
integrating and not only giving the best to oursister brands, but also getting the best from
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our sister brands and really figuring out, youknow, sometimes through trial and error over
the past six years, how to make that happenbetter, more efficiently, and in ways that is
not one plus one equals two, but one plus oneplus one with all these Sandow brands equals
20.
Okay.
One big thing that when we talked initially,you mentioned a lot of strategy around working
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moms going down that path and hiring workingmoms.
What drove you to that thought process inregards to strategy and hiring, and what was
essentially the outcome of that?
Well, I mean, the outcome already speaks foritself.
Our company was acquired, so clearly thestrategy was successful.
Success.
Yeah, exactly.
I would say the strategy was successful.
But let me talk about when I started thiscompany.
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I started this company when my second son wasborn, I just did a TEDx talk about it that was
one of the one in 18,000 actually pulled to theted.com stage.
So hopefully your listeners will go listen tothat talk because I think it really tells the
story of why I started this company and kind ofwhat that transition was like.
But the short version of it is I was reallyoverwhelmed with trying to work on the rules
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that were created for, I think, a differenttime than the ones that we're living in.
Typically, we work eight to five.
Typically, the people, that schedule wasdesigned, had someone, a stay at home spouse,
that was taking care of a lot of things athome, and I had none of those things.
So it felt to me like I was away from my, atthat time, two sons, I now have three, every
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waking moment.
And I just thought this is not working for me,so there was kind of a calamity of issues that
happened that said, Okay, I'm going go out onmy own.
And quite frankly, when I started this company,I thought I was flushing my career down the
toilet.
I thought this was it.
It's just a sidestep in And my what a beautifulaccident that this really started to blow up,
right?
That what I thought was a sidestep in my careerended up being just a magical turning moment
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that really blew up into something much, muchbigger than I could have ever imagined.
But if you go back to my mindset at that time,I was trying to find risk free ways to grow the
business because I started in 2011.
By 2015, 100% by word-of-mouth, it was morework than I could handle, and I was kind of
getting back to like, geez, I'm spending all mytime away from my kids because I can't handle
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all the work that's coming in.
So kind of a low risk way to run that businesswas I reached out to a lot of other working
moms that had been through kind of similarpersonal, I'll call them crises, personal
crises that I was, that that many of them hadleft the traditional working world for one
reason or another.
So my pitch to them was, I promise you nothing.
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Basically, sometimes we'll have more work, andtherefore, you'll have more money.
Other times, you'll have more time, and thatwas something that they valued.
Most of them equally as much as they valuedmoney.
Sometimes you'll have more time with your kids.
So it was a true consultancy where, you know,we we did very clear scope of work, statement
of work.
We paid them well when we had work, butconsulting, as you know, can be a little bit
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cyclical, a little bit up and down.
We really structured the business in a way thatwas very friendly to what these core
demographic of people valued.
And, I also have to say, power to the workingmoms, shout out to the working moms, because
there's no one more efficient with their daythan a working mom.
Most working moms love work, and they lovelife.
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They're not gonna waste time.
If they're at work, they wanna be impacting thework that they do.
They're not gonna get very caught up in in anywasted time at work.
And if they're at home, they wanna be home.
So I really appreciated, you know, that passionthat a lot of these women had for both work and
life, and trying to figure out how toeffectively balance the two.
That very this is such so randomness.
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I so I have a five year old.
I watched Sing, the animated movie for thefirst time
Great movie.
Don't know.
Less than a week ago.
Literally within the last seven days.
So the mom character in that movie has like, Idon't know, 25 little piglets, essentially what
it she then builds this whole contraption tomake sure that she can take care of the kids
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while she goes off to do her singing career,the thing that she really wanted to do.
And that just kinda goes to your point.
I know obviously a silly kind of thing, butlike it's so true.
Like a mom just figures shit out.
Like hey, like I have only x amount of time.
How do I make this work in the time I have tobe able to do all the unbelievable amount of
things I have to do?
And my wife, Jamie, very similar to that.
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She the amount of stuff she can achieve is isbaffling to me.
I think I am fairly productive as a humanbeing, but Jamie is just next level human
being.
It's amazing.
Kudos to Jamie.
Shout out
to That's cool that's cool that the time ormoney, and if you value both of those, that
kind of relationship makes tons of sense for aconsultancy, which is super even how you said
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that, I was like, oh, shit.
That sounds way better than what I would thinkof of, like, well, sometimes we'll be busy and
sometimes we won't.
You're like, either you're gonna have moremoney or gonna have more time.
Either way, you win.
That's awesome.
So good on you.
And I'm I'm hopeful for for a variety ofreasons for the future as it relates to this
topic.
Topic.
You know, I'm hopeful that in the future, as asociety we evolve, so that the piglet mom is
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not having to create a machine that does this,that there is more structure and support
societally that helps it.
And I'm also hopeful that in the future, wehave more employment options.
You know, one of the things that I'm talkingabout as I look at, you know, even as I give
advice to the many, many brands that we workwith now is, you know, what do you need a full
time employee for?
What can AI do?
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Right?
Which is a whole another element of thisconversation because there is are things that
AI can do.
And then what could be handled by a consultant?
Because I hope, whether it's aging baby boomersthat still wanna keep one foot in the
workforce, whether it's, you know, theseentrepreneurial young generation, Gen Z, even
Gen Alpha is not so far behind.
The oldest of them is around 13, 14 right now.
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I think in the future, we're gonna have not onework path.
You're either working or you're not working.
I hope that we have multiple options, and Ithink that that will be a win for employers and
employees that that are looking for somethingdifferent out of life, whether it's to take
care of kids, aging parents, maybe you've got ahobby and you wanna travel to a dude ranch
every summer.
I think that there's hopefully a lot moreoptions in our future.
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And as a culture, we're evolving.
Yeah.
I I'm on the same wavelength as you or orthought process of you, certainly, and seeing,
like, we should be evolving into the next,especially with AI and how fast that moves.
Like, that specifically should be able to helpus pull work away to then actually have more
time to do other things of either passion orpurpose in our lives.
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That
makes sense.
Absolutely.
I love the consulting world because in theconsulting world, you can't hide.
You hear about trimming the fat incorporations, right?
Because corporations, you can have probably acush job or you can hide out in the consulting
world.
If you are not good, your business will notsurvive.
And maybe that terrifies some of yourlisteners, but I would say, you know, in
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speaking to the business side of this, anyconsultant that's making it on their own is
really worth hiring because you can't make iton your own if you're not hustling, if you're
not great at what you do, if you don't getthose client referrals.
So I kind of see this consulting world as abeautiful benefit to businesses too because it
weeds out the non performers.
Interesting.
Before we dive into that, let's see what thatframework looks like.
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You mentioned obviously the TEDx talk are goinginto the 18000 that got moved up to
One in 18000.
Yeah.
It's point zero zero insane?
58%, yes.
Juan, kudos to you.
I'll make sure that's in the show notes.
No big deal.
What, let's talk about it, though.
Like, what is the discussion about?
So the title of it is Work is Broken, Gen Z CanHelp Us Fix It.
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Yeah.
Which,
if you just heard me say that, might be reallytriggering for you.
If you work with a Gen Zer, maybe it hasn'tbeen the greatest for you.
I was just on a text thread with a bunch ofgirlfriends last night that were complaining.
There are a bunch of Gen Xers that arecomplaining about the Gen Zers and their work
life.
So please listen to the talk.
Don't just look at the title.
If you read the comments on the TEDx talk or onthe ted.com link, you'll see that a lot of
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people have only read the title and reacted tothat and not listened to the whole talk.
But basically,
That's that's problem in society.
Headline readers that don't actually dive intoany more information than a headline.
Yeah.
I don't wanna get off track here.
Go ahead.
We could have a whole podcast episode justYeah, on course.
Me tell you.
A research brand in a media company, that isrampant, for sure, For sure.
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But the premise of the talk is really settingup.
We've done a ton of research at ThinkLab aroundGen Z.
We've done this because we focus on the builtenvironment and kind of how data and insights
help not only interior designers andarchitects, but also product brands be ready
when we get to the future.
So Gen Z is coming to the workplace, and thisstarted out by really understanding, you know,
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not only how will Gen Z affect the future ofwork, but specifically, how will Gen Z affect
our industry?
So I will send a link to that research becauseI think it's fascinating for any AEC firms that
are trying to understand kind of what is thespecific implication, to this industry.
But what we saw there was so interestingbecause I felt like a lot of what Gen Z was
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asking for, as frustrating as it may be to mygeneration, and I will acknowledge that fully,
was not so unlike what I was asking for as aworking mom trying to build this business.
And I am very out and very public and very loudtalking about that working mom structure today,
but I will say I've been building this businessfor fourteen years, and I'm only telling that
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story now because of the proven businesssuccess first that I can now kind of back up
and tell that working mom story.
So I think what's interesting as we parallelthose two journeys is really exploring where
the commonalities are between what I wanted asa working mom and what Gen Z is asking for.
And I don't think they're that different.
And so that's what the talk gets into, isreally looking at kind of what Gen Z is asking
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for, how it is very different from, you know,maybe some of these standard norms that our
work culture today is built upon, and how wecan kind of work with them rather than being
frustrated by them to help get to a betterfuture.
Is this, because change is scary for lots ofpeople.
Businesses, certainly, but just people ingeneral, change can be scary.
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Generational changes, how a general onegeneration.
And again, this is somewhat generalization, butlike how one generation interacts compared to
the next, compared to the next is different.
Where, where are some of those misconceptionsof like, hey, we've done things this way and
this is how it works.
And like you are just young in your career andyou don't understand compared to like, no,
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actually there is some components here thatmaybe totally fill the gaps of like where where
things did suck or where things didn't work inhow we've been operating.
Obviously, the working mom framework as well asthis gen z framework and the parallels to that,
there's gotta be places that you're like, ohyeah, these are just straight misconceptions
and people are just stuck in thinking the waythat they've well, it's just the way it's
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always been kind of odd.
Mhmm.
I wanna start with, there's a lot ofmisconceptions out there about generational
research.
So I'm guessing, Justin, are you a millennial?
I am a millennial.
I'm a I'm a proud millennial.
I don't know
if Yeah. That's
That's your shirt said that to me
It's should.
But it also also says retired Florida man.
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So, like, I don't know if that's completelytrue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It could say both.
It could say both.
This has a lot of things, and and I'm lovingit.
But I think because of what generationalresearch did to the millennials, what we did to
the millennials is we stereotyped them.
And I often tell this story when I take thestage about a conference that I was at where
there was a researcher talking about researcharound millennials on the stage, and I was
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sitting next to a friend who's a baby boomer.
And every time the speaker would say, well,millennials want work life balance, he would
lean over and whisper in my ear.
And then he would say, millennials want moremoney.
And he would lean over and say, And I thinkthat that's the problem.
When generational research sets up that this iswhat this generation wants, they set up a win
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lose dynamic.
So for millennials to get what they want, babyboomers have to give something up.
So the way that we started this research wasvery, very different.
What we did is we looked at the businessproblems first.
What are the problems that your business isstruggling to solve?
Again, when we started this research back in2023, it was specifically with architecture and
design firms.
Where are your this is the question we asked.
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Where are you struggling to connect your teamstoday across generations, geographies, and
digital divides?
And I am writing a book now on all thisresearch, so it will be out in June 2026 with
Wiley, so more on that to come.
But I literally have a post it that stays on mycomputer that says generation, geography, and
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digital divide, because we have to start withthe business problem, and then we look to Gen Z
not as stereotypes, but as prototypes to helpus figure out how to solve them.
So when you prototype something, you keep theaspects that work, and you kind of get rid of
the ones that don't.
So this is not to say Gen Z has all theanswers, but what is unique about Gen Z,
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especially if you look at this period fromabout 2020 to 2025, and the acceleration that
happened culturally in terms of where we weregoing.
Gen Z entered the workforce, assuming atraditional four year degree, right before the
pandemic hit.
The earliest of them entered the workforce inMay 2019.
So most of Gen Z has never known, as one ofthem called in the interview, the before, the
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world before the pandemic.
And so to them, what is maybe novel ordifferent to all of us that very much knew the
world before, I've already said I've been inthe workforce since 02/2001, to them is just as
natural as the air they breathe.
A fish doesn't know it's in water, it's justswimming.
So by looking to them to kind of see what's asnatural to them as the air they breathe, it
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maybe can give us, you know, collective viewsabout our future.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
No.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let me back up to some of the businesschallenges that I see today.
And and I wanna kinda set the stage for reallywhy this is fascinating and important to me.
So there is a trust gap forming.
We wrote an article for Forbes that went viralthat said it was titled Gen Z and the Great
(22:29):
Back to Office Debate Won't End in 2023.
If you search that title, you can find it.
We'll also make sure to put a link in the shownotes, but you'll see a beautiful chart in
there that shows a growing trust gap.
We ask the question, what is the biggestproblem with hybrid?
And about 12% of baby boomers say trust, butabout twenty four percent, so double the amount
of Gen Zers say trust.
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Because remember, in our research, we are notjust looking at Gen Z.
We looked at these perceptions across allgenerations to look for these trend lines and
where it was trending.
So what I see is this growing trust gap.
And in fact, Gallup, actually, you probably arefamiliar with their engagement poll that said
that, you know, in 2020, we saw this sharpdecline in engagement.
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Well, fast forward to over the last year, we'veseen a similar drop in engagement recently that
we saw during the pandemic.
So what that tells me is you could argue theproblem is hybrid work, maybe, but I would say
we're not going backwards.
I don't think we can put that toothpaste backin the tube, especially as you look at the
expectation of these younger generations.
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So it tells me that something that we're doingis not working.
Work was built around rules that work happensnine to five.
We're definitely working into the evenings.
Even if you're fully back into an office todaywith our technological connectivity, you're
working across geographies all the time.
Again, that pushes into the time argument.
So what I say is work is still happeningagainst rules that were created for a time that
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no longer exists.
Now, during the pandemic, we fast forwardedinto maybe a period of time that nobody liked.
So we know we don't want that, but we can't gobackwards, yet we don't yet know what better
looks like.
So this is what I'm exploring in the book.
It's a very brief version in the TED Talk toreally say, how do we begin exploration?
Where do we go next?
Because we are not on a path for thriving inour industry or in our world the way that work
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exists today.
Okay.
Lots to unpack.
Lots to unpack.
Sorry.
Just
Lots got on a of soapbox soapbox
No.
Loved it.
So I've historically been a huge believer inmetrics or scorecard, like some form of like
what you're doing, not how much time you'redoing the thing, right?
So it's like sales is very, I feel likehistorically has been more similar to this,
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right?
Because it's just like, what are you selling?
How you got to that sale?
I generally don't care, assuming that it's, youknow, legal and all those things.
But like, if you made one phone call and itcreated dollars in the door for me, awesome.
Now, if it takes you a 100 phone calls to dothat same amount of dollars in the door, then I
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would expect the same activity to occur.
Right?
So sales has been more similar to this metricbased or scorecard based grading system
compared to other traditional roles where it'slike you clock in at nine, do whatever for the
next eight hours, and then you clock out.
And that means you've succeeded that day andthen that week after you get through the end of
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the week.
I feel like because everything is so structuredbased on that, like for us, IT and
cybersecurity, like we have to be availablewhen our clients are working, right?
So like, hey, I can't have my engineers justwork from, you know, 10PM to six in the morning
or something like that because like, oh, well,you can't actually interact with users because
they're not in the office.
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Now again, if time went on and it's like, oh,time just disappears of like when people are
working, then it become then the problem getssolved.
I just feel like who has to be the first dominoto make this occur, to make this reality become
more tangible for more businesses that arecustomer service driven.
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That's
where my brain starts going.
Yeah, yeah.
So one of the chapters is working title isThink Like a Narcissist, right?
And it's really about Love getting in touchwith when and where we work best.
So there's a line in my TED Talk that says,while many of us have never had this privilege,
(26:32):
the future of work starts with understandingwhen and where we work best.
And kind of a fun story around that is is I wasworking on practicing my talk, I reached out to
my best friend with an audio recording of thetalk to have her listen to it.
And her response was, Amanda, like, in theindustry you work in, you think about this all
the time.
In the company you've built, obviously, thishas been a hot topic for you.
(26:54):
And in fact, research, you know, a lot of thedata shows now, research by the Future Forum,
shows that people in general care more aboutwhen they work than where they work.
Yet a lot of the dialogue really focuses onreturn to office, back to office, home office,
like, what's it gonna be?
Right?
So as I was practicing this with her, she said,you've thought about this by nature of your
(27:14):
work, but most of us have never thought aboutthis.
So my challenge in the talk, and it's gonna geteven deeper in the book, is when and where we
work best might be different for you and I.
It might be different for you, Justin, and someof the engineers that work for you.
I will tell you, I do my best heads down mentalwork at 4AM.
That is not normal for most people.
(27:35):
Most people are not excited to jump out of bedat 4AM and and do work, but that's when I work
best.
So if we can find those things about ourselves,this is a think like a narcissist piece, then
we can start to design work in a way thatbalances those preferences.
And, you know, with this always on world, it'snot so bad.
If one of your engineers loves to work from10PM to 5AM, that's great.
(27:59):
I love to work at 4AM.
Let's have a little overlap, and I'll start myshift at four, and we can have a little overlap
and then move on from there.
So I think we can't design better until we knowwhat better is.
Right?
And so I think it really starts with all of uskind of diving deep to understand what better
looks like for us and maybe even focus onidentifying some of those patterns.
(28:22):
I think we started it probably during thepandemic.
We were forced to think about when and whereand how we can possibly get work done.
But I think that that work has to continue.
And I think no brilliant architect, nobrilliant designer can design for better until
we understand what better means.
Okay.
I'm a big believer in structure.
I think literally structure I is think thatthat's how you structure your life, how you
(28:46):
structure your business, your belief system.
It's all just structured.
It's all structured different ways.
Take any religion, it's just a structure.
These are the things that allow us to operatein different ways.
So to your point of like, hey, your structurestarting at 4AM, which I'm a 5AM guy, so I love
it, but that's your structure that workscompared to an engineer that's like, I'm really
(29:07):
a night owl.
And like 10PM at night through, you know, sixor seven in the morning, whatever.
Like, that's actually where I would just bemore productive because it's just who I am.
So I love that concept.
I just when I wrote when you run this out,because like individual company, I can see how,
okay, this can start working.
But because there's so much there's so much ofour like our market's open at certain times.
(29:32):
Like there's so much pieces that are based onthis like block of time, daylight time
essentially, that that's it's hard for me as acommoner, and I'm gonna call myself a commoner
here, to like foresee the future of like, wecould totally change this.
Like for me, I love the idea for meindividually, but like, how do we get that at
scale becomes, for me, is always the challengein my brain.
(29:53):
But you're writing a book about this, so maybeI should just wait and then read your book.
Definitely read the book.
But I think there's challenges in ourworkplace, and there's challenges in our
culture.
And, you know, culture is very slow to adapt.
I think that's what's been so painful about thelast five years is that it was kind of a shock
to all of our systems.
Right?
And we're having to figure it out and and adaptand restructure that.
(30:14):
So I think whether we're talking about broadchange or intercompany change or even inner
team change, it's it's really starting to lookfrom the bottom up.
Think about a pyramid.
Often, we start from the top and mandate down.
If we look at think that the way that thesenorms are gonna be built in the future, it is
going to be by building that pyramid from thebottom up.
(30:36):
So in a company that would start with teamlevel agreements, if you've read the book,
there's a book called How the Future Works.
Brian Elliott, Sheila Subramanian, and HelenKrop wrote it.
They talk about something called team levelagreement that really agrees on communication
hierarchies.
Back to your point, Justin, aboutcommunication.
What does a text mean versus a Slack versus anemail?
(30:57):
You know, in our culture, an email meanswhenever you can get to this.
But a Slack message is like, the minute you'refree, I need this.
And a phone call is like, now, Amanda.
Like, right now.
Answer the phone.
Right?
Like, something's on fire.
So these team level agreements start to buildfrom the ground up what good like, what that
communication level looks like.
And then, you know, as you start to put theteam triangles together, you can start to build
(31:20):
maybe common working hours, maybe meeting hoursfor your company, or between ten and three,
even though some teams might generally workbetween, 7AM and four, and other teams might
work between ten and seven.
That absolutely happens as we're talking aboutscaling.
My team is a very early team.
The Interior Design Magazine team tends to worklate into the evening.
So if we have meetings, they know to kind ofschedule on the earlier side of that for us,
(31:44):
and we know to schedule on the later side ofthat for us.
So to me, I think it's gonna be really flippingmindsets from the top down triangle.
That's probably the problem with some of thesereturn to office mandates right now is, you
know, trying to enforce what works for one uponmany to that bottom up triangle, which I think
is new for us.
And new is harder because to your point, wedon't like change.
(32:08):
But look at how we're shifting, you know, howsocial media shifted news.
Now we don't trust the top of that triangle.
We trust more people and the five star ratingfrom the bottom of the triangle.
I think it's a societal shift that's happening,and I think we're just still figuring it out.
Okay.
That is I I love it.
I'm I'm all about this idea.
(32:28):
I'm I'm sign me up.
Where do I sign my petition for this structure?
No.
It it's this also happens with when you havecompanies that are interacting with global
other global companies.
Right?
It's just like, hey.
Like, you're literally on the other side of theworld.
Like, you are like, there's, like, a two hourwindow that our our times to, like, today
(32:51):
overlap.
Like that's just what it is because, oh, you'reliterally on the other side of this giant, you
know, rock that we live on.
So some of those things do occur at a certainpoint, like thinking about like, oh, how can I
get things scheduled in a right way?
And I do think it does matter.
You mentioned the return to office a ton.
Just based on what you've seen, what does thatlook like?
(33:12):
You know, I have our perspective based upon ourteam and like, there's been no, we've not had
any mandate to have to come back.
But what we think we are doing is building agreat culture that is encouraging people to
wanna be in the office and just be here all thetime, which is a really interesting, cool
thing.
But, like, what are you seeing when it comes toactual data?
It's all over the place.
The media, I think, encourages this frenzyaround this debate that sounds like it's zeros
(33:38):
and ones.
Is hybrid here to stay on one side, or are wereturning to the office on the other side?
And I actually hate that it's zeros and ones.
There's a line in my TED Talk that says, Ibelieve that in the future, some companies will
be fully back to office, and that will be theirunique competitive advantage.
For those that are really doubling down on youcan't collaborate as well in a virtual world,
(33:59):
you can't build trust as well in a virtualworld as you can in person, those companies are
going to thrive.
They're back in the office five days a week,you know, really figuring out ways to do that.
That will be one choice.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, you haveyour digital first companies.
ThinkLab and Sandow, our parent company, is adigital first company, which means we create
all of our structures and operating systems inthe digital world first, but we very much value
(34:24):
physical space, obviously, by nature of ourwork.
We very much value FaceTime, but when we chooseto do that FaceTime, theoretically, the money
we save on rent, we instead use to do a teamretreat once a year where we're all physically
in the same place and we're investing money andtime there.
They do have offices in New York that our teamvisits for strategy meetings when really it's
(34:44):
best to be face to face.
And I think for other companies, that digitalfirst approach will be the winning approach.
They will win this talent war by being there.
I think the majority of companies now, today,and in the future are gonna be somewhere in
between that have a hybrid strategy.
We're seeing most companies landing on, youknow, two to four days in the office with
higher attendance Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,less on Mondays and Fridays.
(35:08):
I don't think that that's a bad thing.
I don't think we all have to choose back tooffice or choose digital first or fully remote.
I think that companies will exist on aspectrum, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Listen, my husband and I, we live in the samehome, but I love working remotely.
It works for me.
I love to travel.
It works for me.
He loves to go to an office.
(35:28):
Working from home five days a week, he feltlike he was dying during the pandemic.
It was just not for him.
So I think as individuals get clear about whatthey want and companies get clear about what
they stand for and the way they believe theirculture will thrive best, it will allow us to
make better career matches.
And I don't think all companies have to choosethe same lane.
(35:50):
I don't think all individuals have to choosethe same lane.
I think we just have to be clear about what weneed, what we're offering, so we can make those
better matches.
That makes perfect sense.
I'm I'm very people y, as people tell me.
I'm one that has high emoting.
Right?
So I emote very highly in the digital world andthen obviously in the physical world as well.
And it's wild the amount of times when I meet aperson I've met digitally once or twice, like
(36:14):
through a podcast, that when I meet them inperson for the first time, we hug.
Right?
Like which is just a crazy idea.
Because it's like, you obviously have connectedwith somebody digitally at such a level that
they feel comfortable enough embracing you,which is a wild cool thing, but that's not
everybody.
Like not everybody does that.
Not everybody emotes as high as I do.
(36:35):
Not everybody is as comfortable digitally as asyou know, they are in person.
Like all of those factors play play to thiskind of role of like, hey, like what's the
structure if you flip it on the people first,and then move your way up or down the triangle
or up the pyramid.
Yeah, yeah.
Whatever way the pyramid's facing now, doescreate these things where it's like, oh, Justin
(36:55):
can be great digitally, but does love tointeract at some touches in comparison to, oh,
be in the office every day, and he does reallywell at that.
Compared to somebody else where it's like, oh,if you're not interacting, you feel like you're
losing something if you're not physically inthe same room as somebody else, where I don't
have that same loss of connection with people.
(37:17):
And I would say that one of the surprisingthings in my observation, this is not research
based, this is observational based from AmandaSchneider, is that you would think that more
extroverts like us, I could tell you're anextrovert like me, would want to physically be
in an office versus an introvert.
My husband is an engineer.
He is definitely an introvert.
I would not want to be, but I actually find itto be the opposite.
(37:38):
To me, for especially fully remote companies,you have to be very intentional.
And to be very intentional, it means, like, ifI'm having a bad day, I'm gonna call somebody
up.
Or if I have a problem, I'm gonna call somebodyup.
There's no hesitation, total extrovert, to dothat, to reach out to somebody, to make that
happen, that intentionality.
An introvert, it's harder for them to do that.
(38:01):
And I think that that is one of the challengesthat's happening right now.
You think that extroverts want to be in office,introverts want to be at home, but actually
those introverts often need that accidentalspontaneous combustion that happens in an
office where us introverts, we're we're finemaking it happen on our own.
That's a I've never thought of it, but thatmakes perfect sense to me how because I've seen
(38:21):
similarities when I think of other people oflike, oh, no.
Really need to go to the office compared tonot.
And it's like Mhmm.
That I do feel like I thought initially that Iwas gonna hate like, when COVID occurred, which
is when I started working remotely, I thoughtfor sure I was gonna, like, lose my mind.
Like, I thought, like, oh, there's no way Ineed the interaction of people.
And what has actually happened is, yeah, I getsome of that, and it's fun, and it's cool to,
(38:44):
like, go meet some people at different timesfor lunches or network, whatever.
But, like, in the reality, it's, like, oh, I'mabsolutely more productive, like, just seeing
across the board because I'm not distracted bythe people that are there that I then
inherently wanna talk to all the time.
Like, you know, it's just like, I think thatthere's a lot to the extrovert that can work
remotely, but then also, you know, do thingswhen they need to.
(39:06):
And I agree, I can reach out to anybody at anypoint in time.
Literally, if I'm in the car, I'm callingpeople, and people are like Same.
You call people?
And I'm like, yeah.
Because it's like, why would I yeah.
Of course I call people.
Like, that to me, it's like, of course, I wannatalk to people and, like, just see how they're
doing and, or I have a thought or an issue or acrazy idea, and I just wanna share it with
somebody.
So, like, that is very natural for me, butcertainly not for everybody.
(39:29):
I would agree.
Wow.
This has been a ton of fun.
I we're obviously gonna throw all the stuff wetalked about in the show notes, all that fun
stuff.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
Assuming you want them to get ahold of you, Iguess is the
would love for them to get ahold of me.
So I'm a big LinkedIner.
So Amanda Schneider on LinkedIn, you can findme.
(39:50):
It has a little nerd emoji.
You'll find it there on LinkedIn.
So if this sparked something for you, I wouldlove for you to reach out on LinkedIn.
I would also invite you to follow I have twopodcasts.
Our kind of lead podcast is one called DesignNerds Anonymous.
So it's really about trying to make creativework and design interesting to business people,
and I would say, vice versa, making thatbusiness talk interesting to designers and
(40:15):
trying to bridge the gaps there betweenbusiness and design.
So our tagline is sparking curiosity at theintersection of business and design.
So that is Design Nerds Anonymous wherever youget your podcasts.
And temporarily, in 2025, we have started asecond podcast that we don't know if it's gonna
survive or not, but it is a fascinating listengiven everything that's going on in 2025.
(40:36):
This podcast is called Baseline.
And Baseline is really trying to kind of giveyou context for decision making in 2025.
We know especially for the product side of theindustry, for the built environment, 2025 has
been a little bit tumultuous.
We've had tariffs.
No.
Wait.
We don't.
No.
Yes.
We do.
No.
Now now they're on hold.
There's a little bit of economic uncertainty,especially as we go towards the back half of
(40:58):
the year.
So what we have started is a very short formweekly podcast and survey.
So each episode of the podcast, ten minuteslong, answers one key question.
You'll see the question we're gonna answer withdata that pulls from all of that survey, and
then we do it in a very quick storytelling waythat is easy for the most creative design minds
to understand kind of the economics.
(41:18):
And we give you quotable quotes that you canuse with your clients to help you sound
smarter, have context for the decisions thatyou're making.
And it really is just designed to to help usnavigate 2025 and these economic ups and downs,
and you vote with your listen.
So if you love it, listen, tune in, and yourlistens will tell us.
You want us to keep going.
Or if not, then just stay tuned in to DesignersAnonymous, but we love the world of podcasting.
(41:42):
We hope you join us on our podcast as well.
That's awesome.
I'm excited to listen to both.
Very fascinating, the one that is not sure thatit's gonna last, but I love the communication
connection and then also what's just happeningin the current day.
So that's that's really cool.
Anything else you'd like to tell the peoplebefore we say goodbye?
Goodness.
I will say, if I could leave you with oneparting thought, it's if you are creative
(42:06):
listening to this, continue to try tounderstand this business world.
The more that you can understand andcommunicate your design's impact on the
business side of this, the more of the greatcreative work that you can do.
I would say for anyone who is a business leaderlistening to this that is related in any way to
the creative industry, really consider data inyour storytelling and how you can use data to
(42:32):
give your clients context, again, to make thesebetter business decisions.
If you need any more inspiration, any moredata, stats, facts specific to this industry,
head over to thinklab.design, our website.
We have everything from interior designs,giants of design, like the Fortune five
hundred, but interiors firms that can tell youwhat's happening with the industry.
We have The US design industry benchmark reportthat looks at what's growing, what's shrinking,
(42:56):
how the industry is shifting, both on thecommercial and residential side year over year.
So we have a lot of data for you, and we hopethat you follow ThinkLab.
And thanks much, so Justin, for having me ontoday.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
This has been a blast.
I'm excited to get this episode out.
Just enjoyed you as a human being.
So in addition to how smart you are and all thesuccess you had and everything we've talked
(43:18):
about, you just feel like a good human being toknow.
So I'm thankful
for that.
I would give you a hug, Justin.
If we met in person, I would give you a hug.
I'm a hugger.
All right.
Well, next time I'm in Chicago, I'll make surethat I find a way to get us in a similar room
so we can embrace.
Alright.
I love it.
That sounded weirder than I think it shouldhave.
(43:40):
But nonetheless
We could cut it out in post.
Yes.
But nonetheless, this has been tons of fun, andthank you for your time today.
Alright.
Thanks so much.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, a colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(44:04):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(44:27):
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
Have you ever wondered how successfularchitecture, engineering, and construction
companies scale their business?
Or have you ever wanted guidance on how to getmore growth, wealth, and freedom from your AEC
company?
Well, then you're in luck.
Hi.
I'm Will Foratt.
And I'm Justin Nagel, and we're your podcasthosts.
We interview successful AEC business leaders tolearn how they use people, process, and
(00:27):
technology to scale their businesses.
So sit back and get ready to learn from theindustry's best.
This is
Building scale.
Hey, listeners.
It's Will here.
Our mission is to help the AEC industry protectitself by making technology easy.
If you've ever listened to our show, then youknow that the three pillars of scaling a
(00:49):
business are people, process, and technology.
So if you suspect technology is your weak link,then book a call with us to see where we can
help maximize your company's IT cybersecuritystrategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
Welcome back to another episode of buildingscale, specifically the building connection
(01:12):
series where I get to talk to awesome leadersand just, I think this episode highlights just
badasses that are out there doing really coolstuff.
Today, I get to talk to Amanda Schneider.
She founded ThinkLab, the only research entitywholly focused on the built world, the built
environment.
She's a really respected leader and has been ina ton of publications that are very
(01:36):
prestigious, including Forbes, MIT SloanManagement Review, Interior Design Magazine,
Metropolis.
She's kinda done it all all, Ted Talker, is theeasiest way to put that.
One that, got lots of people anxious.
Let's put it that way, and you'll learn moreabout this as you'll see the episode, which was
really cool.
And and we got to have a a great conversationand really talk about just where the future is
(01:58):
taking us with the workplace, what employeesare looking for, where we can just be better at
understanding that people are different, peoplewant different things, and, like, we can allow
that to happen.
Obviously, big person about structure myself,but everybody's structure can be different.
Right?
So this is a really, really fun episode.
(02:19):
And and we agreed that at the end of theepisode that if if we saw each other in person,
we would hug.
So that that means that we've we've connecteddigitally.
I I grade my connections when it's just adigital interaction.
It's like, hey.
If I actually meet that person, is it just likea, you know, a hi or a handshake or or
whatever?
So, always looking to be better digitally, butsomething about being in person changes it.
(02:44):
I'll also host of the popular podcast designsNerd Anonymous.
So if you're listening to that and you're adesigner or or you're not a designer, I
recommend giving that listen.
And you can find her TED talk generallyanywhere on the Internet.
We'll put that all in the show notes and andall that fun stuff.
But had a really, really good time and a blasttalking to her, so I hope you do as well.
(03:07):
Alright, Amanda.
You were in industrial design.
That's what you did at one point.
And then you said, you know what?
I actually love research.
How did that transition occur?
That seems they seem a little bit far apartfrom each other.
How how did that work?
They do.
I often say I'm a designer by degree, ajournalist by accident, and a researcher by
(03:30):
choice.
I'll kinda walk you through that transition.
It's a it's a great tagline.
Right?
It kinda tells you who who I am.
So designer by degree, I went into industrialdesign, product design.
My degree is from University of IllinoisChampaign Urbana.
And I I've always had kind of a creative mind,but didn't really know what I wanted to do.
So I met a woman who was a product designer.
(03:52):
Her name is Amory Conrado.
I'm pretty sure she has no idea what an effectshe had on my business or my life, really.
And Well, shout out to her now then.
Now she knows.
Exactly.
Well, now well, wait.
I just had to find her, but there's LinkedIn.
So we can find her now, theoretically.
But she talked about why she loved design andindustrial design specifically because every
day is a new adventure.
One day she's designing a baby's bath seat, soshe's observing a mother bathing her child.
(04:16):
Another day she's designing a scuba mask, soshe has to take scuba lessons to figure out
what might and might not work.
And I just fell in love with that profession.
I was like, that is what I wanna do.
Now fast forward, I got into school, and I waslike, I cannot sit behind a sketchbook.
I am designed to talk to people.
And I realized what got me interested inindustrial design was not the like, sketching
and being behind a sketchbook and the creativeside of it as much as it was the research side
(04:39):
of it and really connecting it with business.
Well, I kind of launched into my career reallyat a tumultuous time in the furniture industry.
I started in the furniture industry when, ifyou remember, back in 2001 was the dot bomb.
As these .com crash happened, the dot bomb, youcan all imagine, was not great for the
(04:59):
furniture category.
So my boss at the time, there's a whole funnystory about a broken foot and my first day on
the job that we can get into if you want to,but there was a lot of transition happening at
the company where during a rebrand, marketerswere getting promoted, and a lot of the design
staff was being let go, for a veryunderstandable reason.
And so about a year into that, my boss sat medown and said, Amanda, do you wanna stay in
(05:21):
design or shift into marketing?
You seem to have an aptitude for marketing.
And I'm thinking designers get fired andmarketers get promoted.
Like, I'll do that.
So they paid for me to go back to school andget my MBA, and I helped them start up the
first ever market research team.
And that has evolved into journalism again byaccident, and I ended up starting a research
(05:43):
company in 2011, to serve specifically theinteriors industry.
And that absolutely blew up on its own.
I sold it to Sandow, the parent company ofinterior design, Metropolis, Design Milk, a lot
of different design media companies.
And for the last six years, I have been runningthat company on behalf of Sandow.
It is called Thinklab.
And so that is kind of my quick story.
(06:05):
Designer by degree, journalist by accident,researcher by choice.
That's quite the tale.
Smart on you.
Design marketing, well, it seems like there'sone obvious option here.
And then getting to go back to school andgetting that paid for is always a fun well,
people that enjoy that is fun.
I'll put it that way.
Absolutely.
And and I feel like it's so important.
(06:26):
I feel like there's not enough connectionbetween design and business, and I think, you
know, my whole team would tell you they'reoften, like, the most creative business people
in the room or the flip of that, where they arethe, most business minded creatives in the
room, depending on what room they're in.
So I think a lot of our success has really beenas translators between business needs and how
(06:48):
design can help that.
Being that your podcast is focused on the AECindustry, I hope we spark some of that here
today in this dialogue.
Yeah.
No.
For sure.
I I frequently say that 90% of problems inlife, but in business certainly, are solved by
communication, right?
Just how do you communicate?
How do you set great expectations?
How do you do those things?
Right?
They just solve so many problems.
So when somebody understands the business sideas well as the creative side, that is
(07:12):
inherently that.
Can I explain to you why this makes sense as acreative, but also as a business side of it?
Because then that's the best of both worlds,which is great communication, is essentially
what that creates.
I would agree.
I would agree.
Yeah.
So started the research company and then grewthat a little bit and then and sold to got
(07:34):
acquired.
But what was that transition like?
Obviously, going from design to then going backto school, then, hey.
I'm doing this research thing, and now, oh,somebody wants to buy that from me, which has
gotta be a great feeling.
What But did that look like?
What did that transition look like?
Yeah.
Acquisitions are tough.
I'm not gonna sugarcoat it.
Anytime you've been out on your own making allof your decisions, and then you go to having a
(07:56):
boss again and having to integrate with othercompanies, which is a little bit different than
being on your own.
So transition was tough, but, obviously, I'mstill here six years later.
So it's been really fun to learn how to go frombeing a company on our own to really
integrating and not only giving the best to oursister brands, but also getting the best from
(08:19):
our sister brands and really figuring out, youknow, sometimes through trial and error over
the past six years, how to make that happenbetter, more efficiently, and in ways that is
not one plus one equals two, but one plus oneplus one with all these Sandow brands equals
20.
Okay.
One big thing that when we talked initially,you mentioned a lot of strategy around working
(08:40):
moms going down that path and hiring workingmoms.
What drove you to that thought process inregards to strategy and hiring, and what was
essentially the outcome of that?
Well, I mean, the outcome already speaks foritself.
Our company was acquired, so clearly thestrategy was successful.
Success.
Yeah, exactly.
I would say the strategy was successful.
But let me talk about when I started thiscompany.
(09:03):
I started this company when my second son wasborn, I just did a TEDx talk about it that was
one of the one in 18,000 actually pulled to theted.com stage.
So hopefully your listeners will go listen tothat talk because I think it really tells the
story of why I started this company and kind ofwhat that transition was like.
But the short version of it is I was reallyoverwhelmed with trying to work on the rules
(09:27):
that were created for, I think, a differenttime than the ones that we're living in.
Typically, we work eight to five.
Typically, the people, that schedule wasdesigned, had someone, a stay at home spouse,
that was taking care of a lot of things athome, and I had none of those things.
So it felt to me like I was away from my, atthat time, two sons, I now have three, every
(09:47):
waking moment.
And I just thought this is not working for me,so there was kind of a calamity of issues that
happened that said, Okay, I'm going go out onmy own.
And quite frankly, when I started this company,I thought I was flushing my career down the
toilet.
I thought this was it.
It's just a sidestep in And my what a beautifulaccident that this really started to blow up,
right?
That what I thought was a sidestep in my careerended up being just a magical turning moment
(10:12):
that really blew up into something much, muchbigger than I could have ever imagined.
But if you go back to my mindset at that time,I was trying to find risk free ways to grow the
business because I started in 2011.
By 2015, 100% by word-of-mouth, it was morework than I could handle, and I was kind of
getting back to like, geez, I'm spending all mytime away from my kids because I can't handle
(10:35):
all the work that's coming in.
So kind of a low risk way to run that businesswas I reached out to a lot of other working
moms that had been through kind of similarpersonal, I'll call them crises, personal
crises that I was, that that many of them hadleft the traditional working world for one
reason or another.
So my pitch to them was, I promise you nothing.
(10:56):
Basically, sometimes we'll have more work, andtherefore, you'll have more money.
Other times, you'll have more time, and thatwas something that they valued.
Most of them equally as much as they valuedmoney.
Sometimes you'll have more time with your kids.
So it was a true consultancy where, you know,we we did very clear scope of work, statement
of work.
We paid them well when we had work, butconsulting, as you know, can be a little bit
(11:17):
cyclical, a little bit up and down.
We really structured the business in a way thatwas very friendly to what these core
demographic of people valued.
And, I also have to say, power to the workingmoms, shout out to the working moms, because
there's no one more efficient with their daythan a working mom.
Most working moms love work, and they lovelife.
(11:37):
They're not gonna waste time.
If they're at work, they wanna be impacting thework that they do.
They're not gonna get very caught up in in anywasted time at work.
And if they're at home, they wanna be home.
So I really appreciated, you know, that passionthat a lot of these women had for both work and
life, and trying to figure out how toeffectively balance the two.
That very this is such so randomness.
(11:58):
I so I have a five year old.
I watched Sing, the animated movie for thefirst time
Great movie.
Don't know.
Less than a week ago.
Literally within the last seven days.
So the mom character in that movie has like, Idon't know, 25 little piglets, essentially what
it she then builds this whole contraption tomake sure that she can take care of the kids
(12:19):
while she goes off to do her singing career,the thing that she really wanted to do.
And that just kinda goes to your point.
I know obviously a silly kind of thing, butlike it's so true.
Like a mom just figures shit out.
Like hey, like I have only x amount of time.
How do I make this work in the time I have tobe able to do all the unbelievable amount of
things I have to do?
And my wife, Jamie, very similar to that.
(12:40):
She the amount of stuff she can achieve is isbaffling to me.
I think I am fairly productive as a humanbeing, but Jamie is just next level human
being.
It's amazing.
Kudos to Jamie.
Shout out
to That's cool that's cool that the time ormoney, and if you value both of those, that
kind of relationship makes tons of sense for aconsultancy, which is super even how you said
(13:01):
that, I was like, oh, shit.
That sounds way better than what I would thinkof of, like, well, sometimes we'll be busy and
sometimes we won't.
You're like, either you're gonna have moremoney or gonna have more time.
Either way, you win.
That's awesome.
So good on you.
And I'm I'm hopeful for for a variety ofreasons for the future as it relates to this
topic.
Topic.
You know, I'm hopeful that in the future, as asociety we evolve, so that the piglet mom is
(13:23):
not having to create a machine that does this,that there is more structure and support
societally that helps it.
And I'm also hopeful that in the future, wehave more employment options.
You know, one of the things that I'm talkingabout as I look at, you know, even as I give
advice to the many, many brands that we workwith now is, you know, what do you need a full
time employee for?
What can AI do?
(13:44):
Right?
Which is a whole another element of thisconversation because there is are things that
AI can do.
And then what could be handled by a consultant?
Because I hope, whether it's aging baby boomersthat still wanna keep one foot in the
workforce, whether it's, you know, theseentrepreneurial young generation, Gen Z, even
Gen Alpha is not so far behind.
The oldest of them is around 13, 14 right now.
(14:06):
I think in the future, we're gonna have not onework path.
You're either working or you're not working.
I hope that we have multiple options, and Ithink that that will be a win for employers and
employees that that are looking for somethingdifferent out of life, whether it's to take
care of kids, aging parents, maybe you've got ahobby and you wanna travel to a dude ranch
every summer.
I think that there's hopefully a lot moreoptions in our future.
(14:28):
And as a culture, we're evolving.
Yeah.
I I'm on the same wavelength as you or orthought process of you, certainly, and seeing,
like, we should be evolving into the next,especially with AI and how fast that moves.
Like, that specifically should be able to helpus pull work away to then actually have more
time to do other things of either passion orpurpose in our lives.
(14:50):
That
makes sense.
Absolutely.
I love the consulting world because in theconsulting world, you can't hide.
You hear about trimming the fat incorporations, right?
Because corporations, you can have probably acush job or you can hide out in the consulting
world.
If you are not good, your business will notsurvive.
And maybe that terrifies some of yourlisteners, but I would say, you know, in
(15:10):
speaking to the business side of this, anyconsultant that's making it on their own is
really worth hiring because you can't make iton your own if you're not hustling, if you're
not great at what you do, if you don't getthose client referrals.
So I kind of see this consulting world as abeautiful benefit to businesses too because it
weeds out the non performers.
Interesting.
Before we dive into that, let's see what thatframework looks like.
(15:32):
You mentioned obviously the TEDx talk are goinginto the 18000 that got moved up to
One in 18000.
Yeah.
It's point zero zero insane?
58%, yes.
Juan, kudos to you.
I'll make sure that's in the show notes.
No big deal.
What, let's talk about it, though.
Like, what is the discussion about?
So the title of it is Work is Broken, Gen Z CanHelp Us Fix It.
(15:56):
Yeah.
Which,
if you just heard me say that, might be reallytriggering for you.
If you work with a Gen Zer, maybe it hasn'tbeen the greatest for you.
I was just on a text thread with a bunch ofgirlfriends last night that were complaining.
There are a bunch of Gen Xers that arecomplaining about the Gen Zers and their work
life.
So please listen to the talk.
Don't just look at the title.
If you read the comments on the TEDx talk or onthe ted.com link, you'll see that a lot of
(16:18):
people have only read the title and reacted tothat and not listened to the whole talk.
But basically,
That's that's problem in society.
Headline readers that don't actually dive intoany more information than a headline.
Yeah.
I don't wanna get off track here.
Go ahead.
We could have a whole podcast episode justYeah, on course.
Me tell you.
A research brand in a media company, that isrampant, for sure, For sure.
(16:40):
But the premise of the talk is really settingup.
We've done a ton of research at ThinkLab aroundGen Z.
We've done this because we focus on the builtenvironment and kind of how data and insights
help not only interior designers andarchitects, but also product brands be ready
when we get to the future.
So Gen Z is coming to the workplace, and thisstarted out by really understanding, you know,
(17:02):
not only how will Gen Z affect the future ofwork, but specifically, how will Gen Z affect
our industry?
So I will send a link to that research becauseI think it's fascinating for any AEC firms that
are trying to understand kind of what is thespecific implication, to this industry.
But what we saw there was so interestingbecause I felt like a lot of what Gen Z was
(17:23):
asking for, as frustrating as it may be to mygeneration, and I will acknowledge that fully,
was not so unlike what I was asking for as aworking mom trying to build this business.
And I am very out and very public and very loudtalking about that working mom structure today,
but I will say I've been building this businessfor fourteen years, and I'm only telling that
(17:43):
story now because of the proven businesssuccess first that I can now kind of back up
and tell that working mom story.
So I think what's interesting as we parallelthose two journeys is really exploring where
the commonalities are between what I wanted asa working mom and what Gen Z is asking for.
And I don't think they're that different.
And so that's what the talk gets into, isreally looking at kind of what Gen Z is asking
(18:05):
for, how it is very different from, you know,maybe some of these standard norms that our
work culture today is built upon, and how wecan kind of work with them rather than being
frustrated by them to help get to a betterfuture.
Is this, because change is scary for lots ofpeople.
Businesses, certainly, but just people ingeneral, change can be scary.
(18:27):
Generational changes, how a general onegeneration.
And again, this is somewhat generalization, butlike how one generation interacts compared to
the next, compared to the next is different.
Where, where are some of those misconceptionsof like, hey, we've done things this way and
this is how it works.
And like you are just young in your career andyou don't understand compared to like, no,
(18:48):
actually there is some components here thatmaybe totally fill the gaps of like where where
things did suck or where things didn't work inhow we've been operating.
Obviously, the working mom framework as well asthis gen z framework and the parallels to that,
there's gotta be places that you're like, ohyeah, these are just straight misconceptions
and people are just stuck in thinking the waythat they've well, it's just the way it's
(19:12):
always been kind of odd.
Mhmm.
I wanna start with, there's a lot ofmisconceptions out there about generational
research.
So I'm guessing, Justin, are you a millennial?
I am a millennial.
I'm a I'm a proud millennial.
I don't know
if Yeah. That's
That's your shirt said that to me
It's should.
But it also also says retired Florida man.
(19:34):
So, like, I don't know if that's completelytrue.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It could say both.
It could say both.
This has a lot of things, and and I'm lovingit.
But I think because of what generationalresearch did to the millennials, what we did to
the millennials is we stereotyped them.
And I often tell this story when I take thestage about a conference that I was at where
there was a researcher talking about researcharound millennials on the stage, and I was
(19:55):
sitting next to a friend who's a baby boomer.
And every time the speaker would say, well,millennials want work life balance, he would
lean over and whisper in my ear.
And then he would say, millennials want moremoney.
And he would lean over and say, And I thinkthat that's the problem.
When generational research sets up that this iswhat this generation wants, they set up a win
(20:16):
lose dynamic.
So for millennials to get what they want, babyboomers have to give something up.
So the way that we started this research wasvery, very different.
What we did is we looked at the businessproblems first.
What are the problems that your business isstruggling to solve?
Again, when we started this research back in2023, it was specifically with architecture and
design firms.
Where are your this is the question we asked.
(20:37):
Where are you struggling to connect your teamstoday across generations, geographies, and
digital divides?
And I am writing a book now on all thisresearch, so it will be out in June 2026 with
Wiley, so more on that to come.
But I literally have a post it that stays on mycomputer that says generation, geography, and
(20:58):
digital divide, because we have to start withthe business problem, and then we look to Gen Z
not as stereotypes, but as prototypes to helpus figure out how to solve them.
So when you prototype something, you keep theaspects that work, and you kind of get rid of
the ones that don't.
So this is not to say Gen Z has all theanswers, but what is unique about Gen Z,
(21:20):
especially if you look at this period fromabout 2020 to 2025, and the acceleration that
happened culturally in terms of where we weregoing.
Gen Z entered the workforce, assuming atraditional four year degree, right before the
pandemic hit.
The earliest of them entered the workforce inMay 2019.
So most of Gen Z has never known, as one ofthem called in the interview, the before, the
(21:45):
world before the pandemic.
And so to them, what is maybe novel ordifferent to all of us that very much knew the
world before, I've already said I've been inthe workforce since 02/2001, to them is just as
natural as the air they breathe.
A fish doesn't know it's in water, it's justswimming.
So by looking to them to kind of see what's asnatural to them as the air they breathe, it
(22:05):
maybe can give us, you know, collective viewsabout our future.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
No.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let me back up to some of the businesschallenges that I see today.
And and I wanna kinda set the stage for reallywhy this is fascinating and important to me.
So there is a trust gap forming.
We wrote an article for Forbes that went viralthat said it was titled Gen Z and the Great
(22:29):
Back to Office Debate Won't End in 2023.
If you search that title, you can find it.
We'll also make sure to put a link in the shownotes, but you'll see a beautiful chart in
there that shows a growing trust gap.
We ask the question, what is the biggestproblem with hybrid?
And about 12% of baby boomers say trust, butabout twenty four percent, so double the amount
of Gen Zers say trust.
(22:49):
Because remember, in our research, we are notjust looking at Gen Z.
We looked at these perceptions across allgenerations to look for these trend lines and
where it was trending.
So what I see is this growing trust gap.
And in fact, Gallup, actually, you probably arefamiliar with their engagement poll that said
that, you know, in 2020, we saw this sharpdecline in engagement.
(23:12):
Well, fast forward to over the last year, we'veseen a similar drop in engagement recently that
we saw during the pandemic.
So what that tells me is you could argue theproblem is hybrid work, maybe, but I would say
we're not going backwards.
I don't think we can put that toothpaste backin the tube, especially as you look at the
expectation of these younger generations.
(23:32):
So it tells me that something that we're doingis not working.
Work was built around rules that work happensnine to five.
We're definitely working into the evenings.
Even if you're fully back into an office todaywith our technological connectivity, you're
working across geographies all the time.
Again, that pushes into the time argument.
So what I say is work is still happeningagainst rules that were created for a time that
(23:58):
no longer exists.
Now, during the pandemic, we fast forwardedinto maybe a period of time that nobody liked.
So we know we don't want that, but we can't gobackwards, yet we don't yet know what better
looks like.
So this is what I'm exploring in the book.
It's a very brief version in the TED Talk toreally say, how do we begin exploration?
Where do we go next?
Because we are not on a path for thriving inour industry or in our world the way that work
(24:23):
exists today.
Okay.
Lots to unpack.
Lots to unpack.
Sorry.
Just
Lots got on a of soapbox soapbox
No.
Loved it.
So I've historically been a huge believer inmetrics or scorecard, like some form of like
what you're doing, not how much time you'redoing the thing, right?
So it's like sales is very, I feel likehistorically has been more similar to this,
(24:46):
right?
Because it's just like, what are you selling?
How you got to that sale?
I generally don't care, assuming that it's, youknow, legal and all those things.
But like, if you made one phone call and itcreated dollars in the door for me, awesome.
Now, if it takes you a 100 phone calls to dothat same amount of dollars in the door, then I
(25:06):
would expect the same activity to occur.
Right?
So sales has been more similar to this metricbased or scorecard based grading system
compared to other traditional roles where it'slike you clock in at nine, do whatever for the
next eight hours, and then you clock out.
And that means you've succeeded that day andthen that week after you get through the end of
(25:28):
the week.
I feel like because everything is so structuredbased on that, like for us, IT and
cybersecurity, like we have to be availablewhen our clients are working, right?
So like, hey, I can't have my engineers justwork from, you know, 10PM to six in the morning
or something like that because like, oh, well,you can't actually interact with users because
they're not in the office.
(25:49):
Now again, if time went on and it's like, oh,time just disappears of like when people are
working, then it become then the problem getssolved.
I just feel like who has to be the first dominoto make this occur, to make this reality become
more tangible for more businesses that arecustomer service driven.
(26:10):
That's
where my brain starts going.
Yeah, yeah.
So one of the chapters is working title isThink Like a Narcissist, right?
And it's really about Love getting in touchwith when and where we work best.
So there's a line in my TED Talk that says,while many of us have never had this privilege,
(26:32):
the future of work starts with understandingwhen and where we work best.
And kind of a fun story around that is is I wasworking on practicing my talk, I reached out to
my best friend with an audio recording of thetalk to have her listen to it.
And her response was, Amanda, like, in theindustry you work in, you think about this all
the time.
In the company you've built, obviously, thishas been a hot topic for you.
(26:54):
And in fact, research, you know, a lot of thedata shows now, research by the Future Forum,
shows that people in general care more aboutwhen they work than where they work.
Yet a lot of the dialogue really focuses onreturn to office, back to office, home office,
like, what's it gonna be?
Right?
So as I was practicing this with her, she said,you've thought about this by nature of your
(27:14):
work, but most of us have never thought aboutthis.
So my challenge in the talk, and it's gonna geteven deeper in the book, is when and where we
work best might be different for you and I.
It might be different for you, Justin, and someof the engineers that work for you.
I will tell you, I do my best heads down mentalwork at 4AM.
That is not normal for most people.
(27:35):
Most people are not excited to jump out of bedat 4AM and and do work, but that's when I work
best.
So if we can find those things about ourselves,this is a think like a narcissist piece, then
we can start to design work in a way thatbalances those preferences.
And, you know, with this always on world, it'snot so bad.
If one of your engineers loves to work from10PM to 5AM, that's great.
(27:59):
I love to work at 4AM.
Let's have a little overlap, and I'll start myshift at four, and we can have a little overlap
and then move on from there.
So I think we can't design better until we knowwhat better is.
Right?
And so I think it really starts with all of uskind of diving deep to understand what better
looks like for us and maybe even focus onidentifying some of those patterns.
(28:22):
I think we started it probably during thepandemic.
We were forced to think about when and whereand how we can possibly get work done.
But I think that that work has to continue.
And I think no brilliant architect, nobrilliant designer can design for better until
we understand what better means.
Okay.
I'm a big believer in structure.
I think literally structure I is think thatthat's how you structure your life, how you
(28:46):
structure your business, your belief system.
It's all just structured.
It's all structured different ways.
Take any religion, it's just a structure.
These are the things that allow us to operatein different ways.
So to your point of like, hey, your structurestarting at 4AM, which I'm a 5AM guy, so I love
it, but that's your structure that workscompared to an engineer that's like, I'm really
(29:07):
a night owl.
And like 10PM at night through, you know, sixor seven in the morning, whatever.
Like, that's actually where I would just bemore productive because it's just who I am.
So I love that concept.
I just when I wrote when you run this out,because like individual company, I can see how,
okay, this can start working.
But because there's so much there's so much ofour like our market's open at certain times.
(29:32):
Like there's so much pieces that are based onthis like block of time, daylight time
essentially, that that's it's hard for me as acommoner, and I'm gonna call myself a commoner
here, to like foresee the future of like, wecould totally change this.
Like for me, I love the idea for meindividually, but like, how do we get that at
scale becomes, for me, is always the challengein my brain.
(29:53):
But you're writing a book about this, so maybeI should just wait and then read your book.
Definitely read the book.
But I think there's challenges in ourworkplace, and there's challenges in our
culture.
And, you know, culture is very slow to adapt.
I think that's what's been so painful about thelast five years is that it was kind of a shock
to all of our systems.
Right?
And we're having to figure it out and and adaptand restructure that.
(30:14):
So I think whether we're talking about broadchange or intercompany change or even inner
team change, it's it's really starting to lookfrom the bottom up.
Think about a pyramid.
Often, we start from the top and mandate down.
If we look at think that the way that thesenorms are gonna be built in the future, it is
going to be by building that pyramid from thebottom up.
(30:36):
So in a company that would start with teamlevel agreements, if you've read the book,
there's a book called How the Future Works.
Brian Elliott, Sheila Subramanian, and HelenKrop wrote it.
They talk about something called team levelagreement that really agrees on communication
hierarchies.
Back to your point, Justin, aboutcommunication.
What does a text mean versus a Slack versus anemail?
(30:57):
You know, in our culture, an email meanswhenever you can get to this.
But a Slack message is like, the minute you'refree, I need this.
And a phone call is like, now, Amanda.
Like, right now.
Answer the phone.
Right?
Like, something's on fire.
So these team level agreements start to buildfrom the ground up what good like, what that
communication level looks like.
And then, you know, as you start to put theteam triangles together, you can start to build
(31:20):
maybe common working hours, maybe meeting hoursfor your company, or between ten and three,
even though some teams might generally workbetween, 7AM and four, and other teams might
work between ten and seven.
That absolutely happens as we're talking aboutscaling.
My team is a very early team.
The Interior Design Magazine team tends to worklate into the evening.
So if we have meetings, they know to kind ofschedule on the earlier side of that for us,
(31:44):
and we know to schedule on the later side ofthat for us.
So to me, I think it's gonna be really flippingmindsets from the top down triangle.
That's probably the problem with some of thesereturn to office mandates right now is, you
know, trying to enforce what works for one uponmany to that bottom up triangle, which I think
is new for us.
And new is harder because to your point, wedon't like change.
(32:08):
But look at how we're shifting, you know, howsocial media shifted news.
Now we don't trust the top of that triangle.
We trust more people and the five star ratingfrom the bottom of the triangle.
I think it's a societal shift that's happening,and I think we're just still figuring it out.
Okay.
That is I I love it.
I'm I'm all about this idea.
(32:28):
I'm I'm sign me up.
Where do I sign my petition for this structure?
No.
It it's this also happens with when you havecompanies that are interacting with global
other global companies.
Right?
It's just like, hey.
Like, you're literally on the other side of theworld.
Like, you are like, there's, like, a two hourwindow that our our times to, like, today
(32:51):
overlap.
Like that's just what it is because, oh, you'reliterally on the other side of this giant, you
know, rock that we live on.
So some of those things do occur at a certainpoint, like thinking about like, oh, how can I
get things scheduled in a right way?
And I do think it does matter.
You mentioned the return to office a ton.
Just based on what you've seen, what does thatlook like?
(33:12):
You know, I have our perspective based upon ourteam and like, there's been no, we've not had
any mandate to have to come back.
But what we think we are doing is building agreat culture that is encouraging people to
wanna be in the office and just be here all thetime, which is a really interesting, cool
thing.
But, like, what are you seeing when it comes toactual data?
It's all over the place.
The media, I think, encourages this frenzyaround this debate that sounds like it's zeros
(33:38):
and ones.
Is hybrid here to stay on one side, or are wereturning to the office on the other side?
And I actually hate that it's zeros and ones.
There's a line in my TED Talk that says, Ibelieve that in the future, some companies will
be fully back to office, and that will be theirunique competitive advantage.
For those that are really doubling down on youcan't collaborate as well in a virtual world,
(33:59):
you can't build trust as well in a virtualworld as you can in person, those companies are
going to thrive.
They're back in the office five days a week,you know, really figuring out ways to do that.
That will be one choice.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, you haveyour digital first companies.
ThinkLab and Sandow, our parent company, is adigital first company, which means we create
all of our structures and operating systems inthe digital world first, but we very much value
(34:24):
physical space, obviously, by nature of ourwork.
We very much value FaceTime, but when we chooseto do that FaceTime, theoretically, the money
we save on rent, we instead use to do a teamretreat once a year where we're all physically
in the same place and we're investing money andtime there.
They do have offices in New York that our teamvisits for strategy meetings when really it's
(34:44):
best to be face to face.
And I think for other companies, that digitalfirst approach will be the winning approach.
They will win this talent war by being there.
I think the majority of companies now, today,and in the future are gonna be somewhere in
between that have a hybrid strategy.
We're seeing most companies landing on, youknow, two to four days in the office with
higher attendance Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,less on Mondays and Fridays.
(35:08):
I don't think that that's a bad thing.
I don't think we all have to choose back tooffice or choose digital first or fully remote.
I think that companies will exist on aspectrum, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Listen, my husband and I, we live in the samehome, but I love working remotely.
It works for me.
I love to travel.
It works for me.
He loves to go to an office.
(35:28):
Working from home five days a week, he feltlike he was dying during the pandemic.
It was just not for him.
So I think as individuals get clear about whatthey want and companies get clear about what
they stand for and the way they believe theirculture will thrive best, it will allow us to
make better career matches.
And I don't think all companies have to choosethe same lane.
(35:50):
I don't think all individuals have to choosethe same lane.
I think we just have to be clear about what weneed, what we're offering, so we can make those
better matches.
That makes perfect sense.
I'm I'm very people y, as people tell me.
I'm one that has high emoting.
Right?
So I emote very highly in the digital world andthen obviously in the physical world as well.
And it's wild the amount of times when I meet aperson I've met digitally once or twice, like
(36:14):
through a podcast, that when I meet them inperson for the first time, we hug.
Right?
Like which is just a crazy idea.
Because it's like, you obviously have connectedwith somebody digitally at such a level that
they feel comfortable enough embracing you,which is a wild cool thing, but that's not
everybody.
Like not everybody does that.
Not everybody emotes as high as I do.
(36:35):
Not everybody is as comfortable digitally as asyou know, they are in person.
Like all of those factors play play to thiskind of role of like, hey, like what's the
structure if you flip it on the people first,and then move your way up or down the triangle
or up the pyramid.
Yeah, yeah.
Whatever way the pyramid's facing now, doescreate these things where it's like, oh, Justin
(36:55):
can be great digitally, but does love tointeract at some touches in comparison to, oh,
be in the office every day, and he does reallywell at that.
Compared to somebody else where it's like, oh,if you're not interacting, you feel like you're
losing something if you're not physically inthe same room as somebody else, where I don't
have that same loss of connection with people.
(37:17):
And I would say that one of the surprisingthings in my observation, this is not research
based, this is observational based from AmandaSchneider, is that you would think that more
extroverts like us, I could tell you're anextrovert like me, would want to physically be
in an office versus an introvert.
My husband is an engineer.
He is definitely an introvert.
I would not want to be, but I actually find itto be the opposite.
(37:38):
To me, for especially fully remote companies,you have to be very intentional.
And to be very intentional, it means, like, ifI'm having a bad day, I'm gonna call somebody
up.
Or if I have a problem, I'm gonna call somebodyup.
There's no hesitation, total extrovert, to dothat, to reach out to somebody, to make that
happen, that intentionality.
An introvert, it's harder for them to do that.
(38:01):
And I think that that is one of the challengesthat's happening right now.
You think that extroverts want to be in office,introverts want to be at home, but actually
those introverts often need that accidentalspontaneous combustion that happens in an
office where us introverts, we're we're finemaking it happen on our own.
That's a I've never thought of it, but thatmakes perfect sense to me how because I've seen
(38:21):
similarities when I think of other people oflike, oh, no.
Really need to go to the office compared tonot.
And it's like Mhmm.
That I do feel like I thought initially that Iwas gonna hate like, when COVID occurred, which
is when I started working remotely, I thoughtfor sure I was gonna, like, lose my mind.
Like, I thought, like, oh, there's no way Ineed the interaction of people.
And what has actually happened is, yeah, I getsome of that, and it's fun, and it's cool to,
(38:44):
like, go meet some people at different timesfor lunches or network, whatever.
But, like, in the reality, it's, like, oh, I'mabsolutely more productive, like, just seeing
across the board because I'm not distracted bythe people that are there that I then
inherently wanna talk to all the time.
Like, you know, it's just like, I think thatthere's a lot to the extrovert that can work
remotely, but then also, you know, do thingswhen they need to.
(39:06):
And I agree, I can reach out to anybody at anypoint in time.
Literally, if I'm in the car, I'm callingpeople, and people are like Same.
You call people?
And I'm like, yeah.
Because it's like, why would I yeah.
Of course I call people.
Like, that to me, it's like, of course, I wannatalk to people and, like, just see how they're
doing and, or I have a thought or an issue or acrazy idea, and I just wanna share it with
somebody.
So, like, that is very natural for me, butcertainly not for everybody.
(39:29):
I would agree.
Wow.
This has been a ton of fun.
I we're obviously gonna throw all the stuff wetalked about in the show notes, all that fun
stuff.
But if somebody wanted to get ahold of you,what's the best way for them to do that?
Assuming you want them to get ahold of you, Iguess is the
would love for them to get ahold of me.
So I'm a big LinkedIner.
So Amanda Schneider on LinkedIn, you can findme.
(39:50):
It has a little nerd emoji.
You'll find it there on LinkedIn.
So if this sparked something for you, I wouldlove for you to reach out on LinkedIn.
I would also invite you to follow I have twopodcasts.
Our kind of lead podcast is one called DesignNerds Anonymous.
So it's really about trying to make creativework and design interesting to business people,
and I would say, vice versa, making thatbusiness talk interesting to designers and
(40:15):
trying to bridge the gaps there betweenbusiness and design.
So our tagline is sparking curiosity at theintersection of business and design.
So that is Design Nerds Anonymous wherever youget your podcasts.
And temporarily, in 2025, we have started asecond podcast that we don't know if it's gonna
survive or not, but it is a fascinating listengiven everything that's going on in 2025.
(40:36):
This podcast is called Baseline.
And Baseline is really trying to kind of giveyou context for decision making in 2025.
We know especially for the product side of theindustry, for the built environment, 2025 has
been a little bit tumultuous.
We've had tariffs.
No.
Wait.
We don't.
No.
Yes.
We do.
No.
Now now they're on hold.
There's a little bit of economic uncertainty,especially as we go towards the back half of
(40:58):
the year.
So what we have started is a very short formweekly podcast and survey.
So each episode of the podcast, ten minuteslong, answers one key question.
You'll see the question we're gonna answer withdata that pulls from all of that survey, and
then we do it in a very quick storytelling waythat is easy for the most creative design minds
to understand kind of the economics.
(41:18):
And we give you quotable quotes that you canuse with your clients to help you sound
smarter, have context for the decisions thatyou're making.
And it really is just designed to to help usnavigate 2025 and these economic ups and downs,
and you vote with your listen.
So if you love it, listen, tune in, and yourlistens will tell us.
You want us to keep going.
Or if not, then just stay tuned in to DesignersAnonymous, but we love the world of podcasting.
(41:42):
We hope you join us on our podcast as well.
That's awesome.
I'm excited to listen to both.
Very fascinating, the one that is not sure thatit's gonna last, but I love the communication
connection and then also what's just happeningin the current day.
So that's that's really cool.
Anything else you'd like to tell the peoplebefore we say goodbye?
Goodness.
I will say, if I could leave you with oneparting thought, it's if you are creative
(42:06):
listening to this, continue to try tounderstand this business world.
The more that you can understand andcommunicate your design's impact on the
business side of this, the more of the greatcreative work that you can do.
I would say for anyone who is a business leaderlistening to this that is related in any way to
the creative industry, really consider data inyour storytelling and how you can use data to
(42:32):
give your clients context, again, to make thesebetter business decisions.
If you need any more inspiration, any moredata, stats, facts specific to this industry,
head over to thinklab.design, our website.
We have everything from interior designs,giants of design, like the Fortune five
hundred, but interiors firms that can tell youwhat's happening with the industry.
We have The US design industry benchmark reportthat looks at what's growing, what's shrinking,
(42:56):
how the industry is shifting, both on thecommercial and residential side year over year.
So we have a lot of data for you, and we hopethat you follow ThinkLab.
And thanks much, so Justin, for having me ontoday.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
This has been a blast.
I'm excited to get this episode out.
Just enjoyed you as a human being.
So in addition to how smart you are and all thesuccess you had and everything we've talked
(43:18):
about, you just feel like a good human being toknow.
So I'm thankful
for that.
I would give you a hug, Justin.
If we met in person, I would give you a hug.
I'm a hugger.
All right.
Well, next time I'm in Chicago, I'll make surethat I find a way to get us in a similar room
so we can embrace.
Alright.
I love it.
That sounded weirder than I think it shouldhave.
(43:40):
But nonetheless
We could cut it out in post.
Yes.
But nonetheless, this has been tons of fun, andthank you for your time today.
Alright.
Thanks so much.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, a colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
(44:04):
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book a call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
(44:27):
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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