May 27, 2025 • 38 mins
Jenny Williams discusses her journey in the family construction business and the significance of assembling the right team. She explores the CMGC delivery method, emphasizing its benefits in balancing work-life and technology adoption in construction. Jenny shares strategies for attracting and training new employees, highlighting the role of community engagement through events like construction rodeos. The conversation shifts to the evolving mindset in construction management, moving away from low-bid work, and the importance of building partnerships. Jenny also touches on the impact of DBE recognition and new growth opportunities in the industry, wrapping up with her closing thoughts.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Yeah, we're trying really hard.
We've done a lot of learning and growing andwe're not perfect by any means yet.
We're still, we're still learning.
But like I said, I think having the rightpeople around us, one of my good friends, she's
a project manager from Stronghold Construction.
Her name is Catherine and I look up to her somuch, but she has a saying that really
resonated with me and she said, show me yourfriends and I'll show you your future.
(00:24):
So it's, know, really about who you surroundyourself with.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of BuildingScale, specifically the Building Connections
series where I get to meet interesting peopleand talk about whatever's on their mind
generally.
We usually track it back around to business.
And in this case, an amazing person I metthrough another guest.
(00:45):
So shout out to Zach Simmons of StrongholdConstruction, who introduced me to another
Oklahoma construction company, WDS contracting,with Jenny Williams.
And very interesting conversation we had, verylife based, not necessarily just strictly
business, of how her and her husband startedthis business.
And, you know, twenty years plus ago, you enterkids into this scenario, started as, you know,
(01:10):
that dirt earth work company now doing fullblown construction management, you know, for
both commercial, federal, and, doing it inunique ways when it comes to how contracts are
put together.
So, it was it was funny because when we firstmet, she said, I don't know.
The podcast thing, you know, I I'm not sure Ihave anything to say.
(01:32):
And after we talked a little bit, I I said, Iwas like, you have so many amazing stories
about, like, the real deal entrepreneurshipthat you have to share.
Please come on the show.
And she agreed to, and the rest is history.
Essentially, we dig deep into life, not notjust how business needs to be ran, but how life
(01:52):
is impacted that way, mindset, and how thatgoes into this.
So it was really just great episode to connectwith Jenny, and I hope you enjoy it as much as
I did.
And, again, shout out to Zach for And herehere's our conversation.
So Jenny, it's a family business, you and yourhusband.
How did how did this all start?
Where where's the beginning origin of all ofthis?
(02:13):
Well, it definitely wasn't very impressive.
And we had very humble beginnings.
We started off really small, just mainly doingjust me and him.
And we were just doing mainly small scaleresidential work, like ponds, house pads,
things like that.
We are in our twentieth year now.
So congratulations.
That's huge.
Yeah, there's been some growth since then, butyeah, we started off really small and then,
(02:37):
grew into doing commercial work.
Then from there, transitioned into federalwork.
We got our DBE certifications.
And then recently we've transitioned into doingconstruction management, using alternative
delivery methods.
And we've had a lot of success with that.
It's been a wild ride for sure.
That's awesome.
(02:57):
That's massive growth from little tiny humblebeginnings, as you say, all the way through,
Hey, I'm doing work for the government now,which is not to say that like, that's always
the landing spot, you know, the promised landor anything like that, but that's way bigger
than in doing somebody's home.
So, right.
Let's walk through some of that how do you gofrom doing a small job to then eventually
(03:19):
getting to doing construction not even youryour trade anymore now construction management
at a at a federal government level
Yeah, no.
So I mean honestly I would try to put my fingeron one thing that you know brought us there but
it's just been a mixture of different thingsand kind of different opportunities that
presented themselves at different times, somethat we weren't even expecting or looking for.
(03:42):
And it was just like, I'm not sure if we can dothat.
Okay, let's give it a shot.
Then it turned out to be the best thing thatever happened to us.
And when I say that I'm specifically talkingabout the CMGC delivery method.
We had showed up to a pre bid meeting, reallyknowing what to expect.
First, it was a bundle of 17 projects.
We get in there and we're like, okay.
(04:04):
And like we had talked earlier with us beingconstruction for twenty years, you kind of feel
like the system's kind of broken.
And when they started describing this method,we're like, wow, okay.
That, no, this makes sense that you have, youknow, essentially early contractor involvement
where the builder is part of the team with thedesign and they're bringing the design along
(04:26):
and you've got, you know, value engineering andinnovations going into it and you're building
it as you go.
Something that's really stood out for us inthis process.
We are consistently seeing 30% to 40% savingson cost and then about 50% savings in time
utilizing that method.
(04:47):
So I would say that's probably been the biggestthing for our business about two years ago.
That's what changed the trajectory of ourwhole, of our all, business and how we do
things.
So DIRTT before, right?
Yes.
The DIRTT life?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We were, we'd always been a sub previous tothat.
Just an earthwork sub and then moved intoconstruction management for the civil side of
(05:11):
things.
And yeah, it's just, it's been a whirlwind and,you know, then on top of that, you add, you
know, you're married to your business partner.
And so that's like a whole new layer you addinto it.
So not only are you, you know, a business ownerin a, in a field that, you know, is very, you
know, chaotic, but you're also in a tradethat's probably the most expensive and the most
(05:32):
risky.
So when they're, you know, married to yourbusiness partner, so that presents itself with
a lot of challenges.
It's definitely for me personally, it's changedmy perspective on things a little bit where you
kind of have to learn to appreciate thepositive in things and maybe try to look, you
know, think outside the box a little bit.
One of the stories I always like to tell peopleis, you know, Matt and I, we pretty much, we
(05:55):
started from nothing.
And when we first got together, basically welived in a single wide trailer house that was
like a 1960 something tin can.
And I mean, had holes in the floor.
It was very, you know, we were broke, broke.
And then
I got pregnant with our first son, which he's18 today, by the way, today's his eighteenth
birthday.
(06:16):
Happy birthday.
Wow.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
And
when I got pregnant, I was like, oh man, we, weneed to, we need to fix this up a little bit.
So, I mean, we got a double wide trailer, thenwe moved it in there, which I mean, after we
moved out in there, we thought we were highrollers.
You know, you've got this nice new double widetrailer.
(06:37):
And I don't know if you know much aboutOklahoma dirt, but it's red.
And so being in the dirt business, when Mattwould come home with dirty boots every day, you
know, this trailer house that already came withthe carpet and curtains and the whole deal and
the carpet was white.
And so every day, you know, I'd be at home, youknow, taking care of babies and he would, you
(06:57):
know, he would walk in the door with muddyboots and I'd get so mad.
I'm like, how dare you?
Don't you know that I've been here cleaningthis house, cooking all day, taking care of
these kids and you're coming in here with thesemuddy boots?
And it just really got under my skin.
And then finally, one day I just kind of satdown and I thought about it and it was just
like this epiphany hit me like, you know what?
These muddy boots represent that he is going towork every day, that we have work every day,
(07:23):
that we are paying our bills, that he is cominghome every day and he's not out at some bar,
you know?
And so now when I see these dirt clods, it'slike, okay, it's a reminder of all the things
that have brought us where we're at, that and Iinvested in a really good carpet shampooer.
So, but yeah, that, you know, things like that,kind of just got to take it in stride and maybe
(07:45):
changing the perspective, I think has a lot todo with being successful and having long term
viability in this business.
And so that for us has worked really well.
That's, it's a good, that's a great reminderfor everybody.
Cause like you having lived through many homeswith the women that ran the home, I totally
(08:06):
could see the, Hey, I just cleaned the floors.
I can hear this in my brain, but then to havethe perspective of like, yes, I am muddy.
I am dirty.
I am, I am full of earth work as I come homefrom work to be reminded, like, what does that
mean though?
Like why, why is there the positive, which Ilove.
So kudos to you for hitting that perspectiveand then having that shit. Took
Took
me a minute to get there and every once in awhile I still need a good reminder, but, it's,
(08:32):
it's definitely been a learning and growingprocess for sure.
Navigating family, kids work, and then tryingto do it all the right way.
You feel like you're not, and you feel likeyou're not doing enough or there's, know, the
work life balance, that's a myth, you know, so,but yeah, it's definitely a process.
Yeah.
What is, what are family dinners like when youare not only a family, but also business
(08:56):
partners?
And we talk about dirt a lot.
Yeah.
Lot of dirt, a lot of dirt talk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I think that's kind of what makes oursituation unique too, with him being in the
field side, me being in the office side, we'reliterally having the, you know, there's, you
know, sometimes there's a disconnect betweenthose two sides, right?
Well, we're literally having that dinner tableconversation of, you know, how the job's going,
(09:17):
you know, things that we can do better nexttime, ways that we can improve our production.
That way, you know, when I bid the nextproject, can keep that in account.
So it's just constantly shifting and evolving,you know, based on those discussions that we're
having at the dinner table with our family.
And like I said, our son that just turned 18,he's actually an employee of ours too.
He operates heavy equipment.
(09:38):
So he's coming in there and, you know, he'sputting his 2¢ in and kind of bouncing that off
of mom and dad.
What do y'all think about this?
Or here's how I overcame this challenge andHey, we hit some unsuitable soils, but, we
overcame.
And so it's pretty neat to get to do that.
That's super, that's gotta be amazing that, youknow, obviously you started the business
before, he was around and now he's in thebusiness and now giving you input or advice in,
(10:05):
in whatever way that comes, that's gotta bequite the complete the circle feeling.
There's always something to talk about.
Oh yeah for sure.
So CMGC so you you a few years ago you go tothis thing and you don't you don't know if
you're going to be able to do the work or oryou know complete the projects.
(10:25):
So what a) let's give people a quick rundown ofwhat that means as well as where are the
advantages?
Mean you obviously talked about like savings onthe cost side as well as in the time side.
Most most business owners would be like, well,I like saving, like I like saving time and
money.
That's generally a good thing.
That's fun, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, for sure.
So let's talk about that.
(10:46):
Yeah.
So I think kind of what's been driving this,this shift in these alternative delivery
methods is, like we talked about before is the,you know, the system's broken where, you know,
a lot of the way things have been done inOklahoma, it's based on low bid, you know,
there's, they're weighing price overqualifications.
So with So with CMGC it's qualification basedand basically you, I mean, we still have an
(11:10):
independent cost estimator that makes sure thatwe are in line on our pricings that we are not
gouging, but it's more qualification based.
And then for us, what we've done is so, youknow, we self perform the earthwork part of it.
So we're able to manage materials in the fieldthe most efficient way.
We're able to look at a job site and say, Hey,you know, let's get with design and let's get
(11:31):
with civil.
And if we adjust these grades, these proposedgrades a little bit, we can balance the site
and save $250,000 on material and trucking.
And we've done that several times actually hererecently.
So that's, that's what we get enjoyment out ofis providing these solutions that, Hey, it
saves the owner money.
It's win win for the team.
And then also what we've done is we've kind ofbuilt a roster of industry leaders based on the
(11:57):
bundle of projects that we have.
So like in Seminole right now, it's mainly likeearthwork and paving.
And so we partnered with Haskell Lemon, whichis the number one paving company in Oklahoma.
We're able to work with them hand in hand andtheir chief estimator.
She's amazing.
She knows design.
(12:19):
She's designed roads before.
She's able to offer innovations on the designside.
And then not only are we catching those savingson design, but then out in the field, we're
continuing to innovate and saving the ownereven more money out there while minimizing
risk.
And so we're addressing that in the verybeginning stages of the project, whereas
(12:39):
typically a project's designed, you know, ayear ahead of time.
And then, you know, we get it as thecontractor, the builder, we're like, Oh, okay.
So this isn't going to work.
This isn't going work.
And this isn't work, which equals change order,change order, change order.
And a lot of times, you know, those are budgetbusters.
It'll shut down a project or it costs the ownera lot of money that they didn't anticipate.
(13:02):
And so now it's a lot more, you kind of havethis environment where there's a lot of finger
pointing.
It's very combative whenever you try to comeand say, well hey you know this wasn't
accounted for in your plans.
Know what do you want to do now?
And it's just not a good situation.
And so with CMGC, you're overcoming all ofthat.
You're figuring all that out in the beginningstages so that when you do get to construction,
(13:24):
you're saving money and saving time.
And so we had one particular project for theSeminole Nation.
It was called Econtextra Road.
It had spent, I think, seven years just kind ofin limbo because it was over engineered, over
designed and over budget.
We then were presented that was part of, the 17projects.
(13:45):
That was our first one right out the gate.
Hospital lemon was able to come in there,provide some, some value engineering options.
We spent about forty five days in design andthen fifteen days in construction and had it
done for about $800,000 worth of savings versustraditional yeah, traditional construction
methods.
(14:06):
So this is, this is where we hope the industryis going.
And why we're big fans of CMGC.
That's so wild.
As I mentioned to you, not ever swinging ahammer, not ever having to do a CAD drawing or
any of these things.
Had this 04:30AM walk with my dog, about a yearand a half ago, two years ago or something.
(14:26):
I was like, there has to be a better way thatconstruction can operate.
This is, was going Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
I, I, you know, obviously talking to tons ofleaders in the space for building scale and
like obviously seeing it from the IT and cyberside and helping those companies, but it was
(14:49):
the business, like the structure of how thebusiness was operating.
Operating.
And not not one specifically, the industryacross the board.
It was just like, this doesn't make sense tome.
Like it was it was very frustrating.
Lots of things about construction don't makesense to me inherently.
When when me and Will will talk to a leader andwe're like, we just don't understand how like
you're going to do work, you're going to cashflow all that work, all that labor materials.
(15:12):
And then like, you're going to wait hopefullyninety days, maybe one hundred and twenty days
long until you get paid on that thing.
Just to us is insane.
Like, that's like, that idea ever, Like, howcould the like, how could you sustain and how
could you grow?
And unless you have giant deep pockets, itbecomes very restrictive, especially for a
smaller business to elevate and to get to thenext level, to go from doing a house to then
(15:36):
doing federal work.
Takes a long time to be able to do that.
I feel like that changing how the industryoperates would help that that would speed up
that process in as well as all the innovationthat I think is there to be had, but it's just
you're not incentivized to be more efficient orto, you know, like, it's just like, if I could
(15:58):
just not to suggest that this is what isabsolutely happening, but if I can change order
the hell out of something to make more money,that is probably the route I go compared to
like, let me make this more efficient and getzero change orders and then make less money.
But it's just like, again, it's like it's amindset shift.
And so like, no, you can be so much moreefficient that you save so much more money.
(16:20):
And they love working with you because like anowner loves to save time and money.
Like if you can be above a faster schedule andlower costs, like, well, that's a no brainer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, usually, I mean, I would say, so we'vehad no, we've had zero change orders and that
is ultimately the goal is to have no changeorders, no surprises for anybody.
(16:43):
You've already figured that out on the frontend of it.
So yeah, it's, it's a much easier, much lesscombative process for sure.
Okay.
So what, what are other things that you're, soobviously you're saying like, we need to be
structurally different contractually.
What are other things that you're doing thatare more process driven that are like you know
(17:04):
are either misses in the industry or thingsthat you've just seen that like this works
really well for us like we found man, like thisis, this is a sneaky trick that we've kind of
uncovered.
Yeah.
So I think kind of the, another aspect of thatwould be kind of, you know, we've, we've
learned to really embrace technology with notonly the field side, but the office side.
(17:27):
And so it's not so much a sneaky trick, but itabsolutely keeps you accountable and it's
digital data that cannot be questioned.
It'll hold up in court.
You know, we've had instances where, you know,a lot of times a dirt contractor will just go
in there and say, Hey, I moved X amount ofdirt, you know, write my check.
How do you know?
(17:49):
You know, the owner, a lot of times an ownerhas no way to verify that, you know?
So we go in, we have GPS on all of ourequipment.
It tells us exactly where we're at, how muchdirt we need to move.
And we also utilize AgTech software the officeside.
And so what that does is it allows me to go inand compare proposed against existing.
(18:12):
We then are able to provide our owner with athree d model of what exactly their job site
will look like.
They can see all the cuts, fills, they can seethe dynamics of the job site.
A lot of times we'll have an owner say, well,know, we just want to do phase one first and
well, one is a huge import job.
But then we look at the overall siteholistically and it's like, well, phase two is
(18:34):
an export site.
So how about doing all the dirt work all atonce?
You know, you don't have to build all yourbuildings all at once, but just do your dirt
work all at once.
Your site will balance and save you a ton ofmoney, time, all that.
And so AgTech's a huge part of that.
They have a really neat site balancing tool toothat'll basically say, hey, if you can adjust
(18:58):
your elevations by X amount, you can balanceyour site.
And they also have a, it's a rock alert whereyou can put in your geotechnical data of where
all your layers of rock are.
That's a huge change order in earthwork is, youknow, you go out there and, surprise, you hit
rock.
Well, now you have to excavate rock, whichthat's a huge cost.
(19:22):
And so with AgTech, you can actually go in andmake your straddle layer of where that rock
layer is.
You can quantify it.
And so again, that's something you can addresson the front end versus it being a surprise on
the, on the back end and causing problems.
Yeah.
I find that what's the saying measure twice,cut once kind of concept where it's like, if
(19:43):
you just plan a little bit more, like you justtake that time to really dig into some details,
you can be so, so much more efficient, whichthen obviously creates the savings.
So you is usually something you don't find incompanies, at least certainly not until they
get to a very large size.
(20:04):
Then they start saying like, need aninnovations team or something like that.
How does, how does technology help in, inregards to getting people to essentially come
work for you or labor, you know, just labor ingeneral, right?
That's a huge issue.
But if you are being more on the forefront ofboth contractually, Hey, we're trying to do
this different, which then has a full impactacross everybody in the company and we're
(20:29):
trying to be more technology forward like whatdoes that then create for your people?
Right and so I would say you know number one ithelps recruit and attract potential employees.
They like the nicer equipment.
And so your equipment that has the GPS on itobviously is going to have a cab and all that,
where sometimes you see this ancient, you know,rust bucket out there.
(20:50):
And so obviously it attracts them right off thebat.
They're like, wow, that's cool.
And especially with the younger generation,they're kind of techy anyway.
So they want to be able to, you know, have ascreen that shows them exactly where they are
in relation to the job site and how deep theircut is and where they're at on that.
And so for us, it's neat because you can takethose plans, they're digitized, and then it's
(21:13):
put into a three d model into the machinethat's then up on a screen where your operator
can then look at it and feel more confidentthat they are where they need to be.
They're basically only having to do it onceinstead of having a bunch of rework.
So for us, you can do twice the work with halfthe crew.
That will again, more efficient, right?
(21:36):
It seems to keep coming back around to that.
So then how do you do you find new recruits?
What's the path for recruiting for y'all?
Yeah.
So since we have three boys, it comes prettynaturally to try to reach out to high schools
and things like that to generate that interest.
Hey, have you ever looked at a career inconstruction?
(21:58):
And so we have a lot of fun with that.
We've gone to a lot of events where there'sheavy equipment simulators.
We've got some organizations here that justtravel around the different high schools and
they bring a heavy equipment simulator wherethere's a headset, a virtual reality headset
and they're you know on the screen you can seethem they're you know moving dirt around or
(22:19):
moving materials and love it and they've neverbeen exposed to it before.
I heard a story we went to a construction rodeoa couple weeks ago and we were just we were so
like appalled that some of these poor kids hadnever even been on a construction site or knew
anything about equipment or had any idea whatthat entailed.
And there was a little boy that was asking, youknow, well, Hey, do you think you might want to
(22:42):
have a career construction?
His answer was, well, yeah, but I don't want tohold a flag in the middle of the road.
That's all we thought it was.
And so we're like, no.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I think just kind of, getting exposureout in our communities with the high schools,
that's something we're big fans of.
Like I said, with us having three boys and oneof them that actually works for us, he's able
(23:03):
to actually go and speak to these kids.
He spoke to about 200 of them at thatconstruction rodeo and you know they can relate
to him because he's their age.
He looks like them.
He talks like them.
And so he was able to relate to them in a waythat we couldn't.
And so just to see their eyes light up that,you know, when they got to jump in a backhoe or
got to go form some concrete or got to learnabout how electrical lines work and things like
(23:27):
that, it was pretty neat.
And so I think there needs to be a bigger pushon that.
I wish more companies would get on board withtrying to recruit the younger generation
because I feel like there's, I mean, I thinkwe've talked about it before.
There's a gap right now.
There's a hiring gap because you've got theolder generation retiring, but the younger
(23:48):
generation is not coming in as quick as whatthe old older generation is leaving.
So, yeah, we definitely try to push that asmuch as we can.
So one to be clear holding a sign on thehighway in that scenario those kids are seeing
that they're being shortsighted because you canmake a great a great living holding a sign so
to be clear about that back Nothing wrong
(24:10):
with fine holders.
Nothing wrong.
Yeah.
Sure.
Fine holders.
Yeah.
But yeah, to your point, there's so likethere's so many other aspects of construction
like that's like there there's so there's backoffice, there's project management stuff,
there's design components, there's engineering,there's so much stuff that's in the space.
But one question that I have, because you know,I'm I'll say I'm common folk.
(24:32):
What what's a construction rodeo?
What, what is, what is this amazing thing?
Yeah.
So it was super fun.
So it was actually put on by an organizationcalled construct my future.
And they're a nonprofit that basically engageswith kids to try to get them, you know, to a
possible career in construction.
Cause you know, when we were growing up, wasalways, had to be, to go to college, you had to
(24:53):
be a doctor, a lawyer or something like And thetrades almost kind of got put on the back
burner.
And so it's like, not a whole lot of kids knowabout it.
They don't know that, hey, you actually, youdon't, I mean nothing wrong with college, but
you don't have to go to college to make a goodliving and you could jump right in and start
doing it today.
And so that basically they had, they startedoff with interviews.
(25:19):
They had all these kids from all differentschools, country schools, inner city schools,
and come in, they ask us questions about, youknow, what do you do?
What is your company about?
And so we got to talk about that and they askedquestions about, you know, how would they get
into construction?
And so we talked about that a little bit.
And then the second half of the day, everybodywent outside and there was some equipment
(25:43):
dealers that brought out, excavators, loaders,track hose, vac hose, dozers, had them all
lined out up there.
And then they even had games set up where likethere was bowling balls set up on these poles.
And the goal was to take the bucket of theexcavator, get the bowling ball off the pole
and then dump it into the bucket next to it.
(26:05):
Wow.
And then, you know, so all, you know, thesekids are super competitive, you know, so now
it's a game, right?
And so they would do that.
Well, then if you could get the bowling ballthen they switched it over to a tennis ball.
So then it got tricky right so that was fun towatch and they had they had guys out there
forming concrete so the kids got to see how allthat worked and they had some linemen out there
(26:27):
showing them you know how the electrical lineswork.
Just all different aspects of construction thatyou normally wouldn't see upfront and personal
and get to be hands on with.
That's what they got to do.
Well, that's, the one it sounds fun.
I want to come to a construction radio now.
You gotta come to the next one
for sure.
It'll be me and a bunch of children.
That's, you know, it'll be fine.
(26:48):
It'd be totally, totally fine.
So, okay.
So, going to events like that is a good way torecruit the, the young.
How do you then train the young to be able toto actually do the job?
Right?
Because this is, it's not that we don't haveenough human beings.
Right?
Like, that's
not like that's not the thing.
And as you get more young people into thetrades, this will help our labor problem over
(27:13):
time but today if I needed a job done like itrequires somebody with experience right you
have to have some concept of what we're doing
right
so how do you what's the struggle there and howdo you,
know, and that's tough, right?
Because a lot of the people that we hire, sothis is kind of ironic, but we've actually
learned that it's almost better to hiresomebody with no experience versus somebody who
(27:39):
is the been there done that and doesn't want tolearn a new way to do things, especially with
the technology on the equipments.
It seems like they just, it's really hard tograsp.
So we've kind of learned that, bringingsomebody in who has basically no experience and
can learn it that way.
And really it's all about their work ethic,right?
(27:59):
Yeah.
We can train skill all day long, but if youdon't have the work ethic, it does you no good.
And so we always say, you know, are youcoachable?
Are you trainable?
You know, are you willing to show up to workfor every day?
If you can check those boxes, you're hired.
We can train the rest.
And so, you know, one of our best operators twoyears ago, he was a mailman.
(28:20):
And so, and he's just caught on real quick andhe's, he's made a really good hand.
Yeah, I, for us, it's just having the willingattitude is 90% of it and we can train the
rest.
All right.
That's fair.
What about on the Centimeters side?
So obviously as you're doing this, I'm guessingthat you're not doing this to where it's like,
need to have multiple, I don't know, you don'tcall them, it wouldn't be a project manager,
(28:45):
maybe a project manager.
I don't know.
Don't know.
I don't know.
I guess let's explain the structure of how yougo from doing this specialty trade to then
doing a construction management.
Yeah.
So that was definitely a learning experiencetoo.
And so it was something we had always seen fromthe other side, right.
Being a sub.
And so we kind of always knew like the goodproject managers, how they kind of worked and
(29:08):
maybe some of the not so good ones, things thatwe didn't want to repeat.
And so I think seeing it from the other sidekind of helped us transition.
And then again, just surrounding ourselves withthe right people that could really help us
support, like learn and grow in that positionwhere, you know, and again, my project manager
that I have right now, she had no experiencecoming to us, but she a % had the right mindset
(29:33):
where she was just like, she jumped right in.
She was like, I can help do whatever.
I never heard, you know, that's not my job, orI don't know how to do that.
She would say, I maybe don't know how to dothat, but I'll figure it out.
She was a hairdresser before she came to us.
Like another, you wouldn't really think wouldlead to construction, but she's amazing at it.
(29:55):
So, but yeah, it's definitely, I think mindsetis, is so it plays such a big part in it.
Then, like I said, the skill part can comelater.
That's super intriguing kids, male men, andhairdressers.
That's that's, that's, that's the secret.
Yep.
We're, we're not tapping into those enough.
That's that's awesome.
(30:16):
You mentioned the mindset shift, obviously withthe model, how you're attacking jobs or how
you're looking at jobs because that's not thecommon, right?
Like, cause you're, we're still living in thereality that lots of jobs get low bid, right?
Like, or even, even like a design bid build,right?
Or something, you know, like there's othermodels that are out there that are more
(30:37):
dominant than a CMGC.
How do you balance taking work?
Right.
Obviously that's where you want to go.
This is the vision that you Yeah.
A % like, yeah, we, I mean, there's a side ofWDS that does the construction management and
CMGC and progressive design build.
And then there's another side of WDS that westill do.
We're still just the earthworks sub, but Ithink where it's benefited us is we take the
(31:02):
mindset from the CMGC progressive design buildand we apply it to where we're a sub and we try
to, you know, still bring those things to thetable, you know, yes, we're still a little bit
later to the game, but if we can present thoseideas or those options to that owner or that
general contractor, I think they look at usthen more as a trusted partner because we, they
(31:24):
know we're looking out for them.
And so they're happy with us and they'llcontinue to use us for their next job.
For sure.
So, and you mentioned building a rosteressentially of partners of like, who other
people that are also in like, or like mindedHow do how do you how do you do that?
How do you find other partners that not onlyyou're thinking the same way, but you also have
(31:47):
a level of trust with them?
Right?
Because it's like, you know, there's a lot ofcompetition that exists right in the world,
which is good because it pushes us forward.
But I think there's a level of that that alsocan stunt our growth, right?
It's just like when you actually collaborateand, cooperate together, you can build things
that you didn't think you could build.
Like it just like, there's, there's more,there's more advantage to sharing knowledge in
(32:11):
my opinion.
Right.
So how do you find great partners like thatthat you can add to the roster?
Right.
So I think a lot of that came from just beingin the industry for so long.
You kinda see the good, the bad, and the ugly.
You see the companies that have, you know,staying power that have, you know, done the
right thing when nobody was looking, or youheard stories that, you know, this other
(32:33):
company did it the wrong way.
So you're like, okay, we're not gonna callthem.
And then, yeah, just kind of having thoserelationships prior to jumping into this, I
think is what really helped us.
And then kind of knowing that they would be agood partner.
And then I think, I mean, soon as like with theCMGC, as soon as they heard, you know, this new
method, they had kind of experienced the samething we did that, you know, it was kind of a
(32:55):
broken system that was outdated, you know, withlow bid.
And so they immediately latched on, you know,and so, like I mentioned before, Haskell lemon
was a big one.
The stronghold construction was another bigone.
They immediately had the same mindset of, Hey,we can do things better.
We can better our, our industry by doing itthis way.
(33:18):
Cause it's, it's win win for everybody now,because if, if owners keep having bad
experiences in construction, they don't want todo it anymore.
Right.
And so if we can give them a good experience,they save money, they save time.
That helps us all.
It keeps us busy then.
Yep.
No, totally.
You've mentioned getting recognized DBE.
(33:38):
How has that impacted the business?
So I think that's opened some doors too.
So there's not a whole lot of woman minorityowned earthwork contractors.
All right well that yeah very specific yeah inOklahoma.
Can't think
of any in Oklahoma.
So there's definitely some incentives therewith federal work and there's a percentage of
(33:59):
set aside there.
I will say that I'm glad that the applicationprocess has gotten a lot more stringent because
I think a lot of people were taking advantageof that where, you know, there would be a
husband, wife team and maybe the, you know,they wanted to get those advantages, but the
wife has no idea of the day to day structureoperations of the business.
(34:21):
So they just put her on paper as owner andthen, well, that's not helping anybody.
And so I know for me personally, the processwas very intense, very stringent.
It was about a year long deal.
But I'm glad it was that way because they'reweeding out all the bad players.
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
(34:41):
So the federal work that you're doing,obviously you're getting to be able bid on
this, or in this case you're getting to gothrough this process to get those projects.
What are, what are other areas of growth thatyou're seeing for the company?
So I would say probably that we wanna keepgoing with the alternative delivery methods.
And then another one would probably be get moreinto the transportation side of things.
(35:06):
Okay.
Are we trying to dip our toe in ODOT work andthings like that?
We haven't yet explored that.
That's definitely something on our radar.
We'd like to try to get involved there.
And then also we just, we like doing the dirtwork still too.
So I don't think we'll ever get away from that.
But I can't ever imagine us not doing that.
So, but yeah, I would say probably justcontinuing on with what we've got going on
(35:29):
right now.
Got it.
All right.
That makes a total sense.
Yeah, this has been a lot of fun.
I, I love, people that are trying to move theindustry forward.
That's essentially at the end of the day iswhat you're saying.
Like, there's just a better way to do things,and maybe we should just think about that more
globally.
And, like you were doing, building a rosteraround that concept to be able to say, if you
(35:54):
get a bunch of like minded people together,that's how you get power, right?
So they'd say like, how do you go from good togreat?
Well, you bring people with you.
Like, that's that's how you do it, right?
You have to do it together, which is awesome tohear that that's effectively what you're
Yeah.
We're trying really hard.
We've done a lot of learning and growing andwe're not perfect by any means yet.
We're still, we're still learning.
(36:15):
But like I said, I think having the rightpeople around us, one of my good friends, she's
a project manager from Stronghold Construction.
Her name is Catherine and I look up to her somuch, but she has a saying that really
resonated with me and she said, show me yourfriends and I'll show you your future.
So it's, you know, really about who yousurround yourself with.
Yeah.
You are the five people you're closest to.
(36:39):
Yes.
That's why I try to talk to as many amazingpeople as possible to find the best, the best
ones.
So, and you're, you're definitely on that listof awesome people.
So thank you.
I appreciate that.
Yeah.
So, before we sacrifice, is there anything elseyou'd like to tell the listeners or share or
thought or a plug, whatever, whatever's kind ofgoing on?
Yeah.
(36:59):
I would just say, I definitely am here to help.
If anyone has any questions about what we'redoing, how we're doing it, I'm pretty much an
open book.
So they're free to go to my website, call meanything like that.
We're always happy to meet new people and kindof expand our network.
And so, yeah, we're, we're excited to be hereand we want to help support others around us.
(37:22):
Awesome.
I will throw all the links into the show notes,but if somebody's just listening, what's the
best way for them to get ahold of you?
So probably my email would beJennieJENY@WDSteams.com.
Or you can go to my website, all theinformation's on there at WDScontracting.com.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
This has been a lot of fun and, I look forwardto future conversations and I'm gonna get you
(37:46):
out here to Phoenix when we have another event.
Especially if we talk, you know, new deliverymethods.
I think that that would be a fun, just day or acouple days of it.
So, yeah.
So, listeners, this has been a ton of fun forme.
Jenny's smiling, so that's always a good thing.
And, until next time.
Adios.
Great.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(38:07):
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Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(38:27):
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Keep building scale.
Yeah, we're trying really hard.
We've done a lot of learning and growing andwe're not perfect by any means yet.
We're still, we're still learning.
But like I said, I think having the rightpeople around us, one of my good friends, she's
a project manager from Stronghold Construction.
Her name is Catherine and I look up to her somuch, but she has a saying that really
resonated with me and she said, show me yourfriends and I'll show you your future.
(00:24):
So it's, know, really about who you surroundyourself with.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of BuildingScale, specifically the Building Connections
series where I get to meet interesting peopleand talk about whatever's on their mind
generally.
We usually track it back around to business.
And in this case, an amazing person I metthrough another guest.
(00:45):
So shout out to Zach Simmons of StrongholdConstruction, who introduced me to another
Oklahoma construction company, WDS contracting,with Jenny Williams.
And very interesting conversation we had, verylife based, not necessarily just strictly
business, of how her and her husband startedthis business.
And, you know, twenty years plus ago, you enterkids into this scenario, started as, you know,
(01:10):
that dirt earth work company now doing fullblown construction management, you know, for
both commercial, federal, and, doing it inunique ways when it comes to how contracts are
put together.
So, it was it was funny because when we firstmet, she said, I don't know.
The podcast thing, you know, I I'm not sure Ihave anything to say.
(01:32):
And after we talked a little bit, I I said, Iwas like, you have so many amazing stories
about, like, the real deal entrepreneurshipthat you have to share.
Please come on the show.
And she agreed to, and the rest is history.
Essentially, we dig deep into life, not notjust how business needs to be ran, but how life
(01:52):
is impacted that way, mindset, and how thatgoes into this.
So it was really just great episode to connectwith Jenny, and I hope you enjoy it as much as
I did.
And, again, shout out to Zach for And herehere's our conversation.
So Jenny, it's a family business, you and yourhusband.
How did how did this all start?
Where where's the beginning origin of all ofthis?
(02:13):
Well, it definitely wasn't very impressive.
And we had very humble beginnings.
We started off really small, just mainly doingjust me and him.
And we were just doing mainly small scaleresidential work, like ponds, house pads,
things like that.
We are in our twentieth year now.
So congratulations.
That's huge.
Yeah, there's been some growth since then, butyeah, we started off really small and then,
(02:37):
grew into doing commercial work.
Then from there, transitioned into federalwork.
We got our DBE certifications.
And then recently we've transitioned into doingconstruction management, using alternative
delivery methods.
And we've had a lot of success with that.
It's been a wild ride for sure.
That's awesome.
(02:57):
That's massive growth from little tiny humblebeginnings, as you say, all the way through,
Hey, I'm doing work for the government now,which is not to say that like, that's always
the landing spot, you know, the promised landor anything like that, but that's way bigger
than in doing somebody's home.
So, right.
Let's walk through some of that how do you gofrom doing a small job to then eventually
(03:19):
getting to doing construction not even youryour trade anymore now construction management
at a at a federal government level
Yeah, no.
So I mean honestly I would try to put my fingeron one thing that you know brought us there but
it's just been a mixture of different thingsand kind of different opportunities that
presented themselves at different times, somethat we weren't even expecting or looking for.
(03:42):
And it was just like, I'm not sure if we can dothat.
Okay, let's give it a shot.
Then it turned out to be the best thing thatever happened to us.
And when I say that I'm specifically talkingabout the CMGC delivery method.
We had showed up to a pre bid meeting, reallyknowing what to expect.
First, it was a bundle of 17 projects.
We get in there and we're like, okay.
(04:04):
And like we had talked earlier with us beingconstruction for twenty years, you kind of feel
like the system's kind of broken.
And when they started describing this method,we're like, wow, okay.
That, no, this makes sense that you have, youknow, essentially early contractor involvement
where the builder is part of the team with thedesign and they're bringing the design along
(04:26):
and you've got, you know, value engineering andinnovations going into it and you're building
it as you go.
Something that's really stood out for us inthis process.
We are consistently seeing 30% to 40% savingson cost and then about 50% savings in time
utilizing that method.
(04:47):
So I would say that's probably been the biggestthing for our business about two years ago.
That's what changed the trajectory of ourwhole, of our all, business and how we do
things.
So DIRTT before, right?
Yes.
The DIRTT life?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We were, we'd always been a sub previous tothat.
Just an earthwork sub and then moved intoconstruction management for the civil side of
(05:11):
things.
And yeah, it's just, it's been a whirlwind and,you know, then on top of that, you add, you
know, you're married to your business partner.
And so that's like a whole new layer you addinto it.
So not only are you, you know, a business ownerin a, in a field that, you know, is very, you
know, chaotic, but you're also in a tradethat's probably the most expensive and the most
(05:32):
risky.
So when they're, you know, married to yourbusiness partner, so that presents itself with
a lot of challenges.
It's definitely for me personally, it's changedmy perspective on things a little bit where you
kind of have to learn to appreciate thepositive in things and maybe try to look, you
know, think outside the box a little bit.
One of the stories I always like to tell peopleis, you know, Matt and I, we pretty much, we
(05:55):
started from nothing.
And when we first got together, basically welived in a single wide trailer house that was
like a 1960 something tin can.
And I mean, had holes in the floor.
It was very, you know, we were broke, broke.
And then
I got pregnant with our first son, which he's18 today, by the way, today's his eighteenth
birthday.
(06:16):
Happy birthday.
Wow.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
And
when I got pregnant, I was like, oh man, we, weneed to, we need to fix this up a little bit.
So, I mean, we got a double wide trailer, thenwe moved it in there, which I mean, after we
moved out in there, we thought we were highrollers.
You know, you've got this nice new double widetrailer.
(06:37):
And I don't know if you know much aboutOklahoma dirt, but it's red.
And so being in the dirt business, when Mattwould come home with dirty boots every day, you
know, this trailer house that already came withthe carpet and curtains and the whole deal and
the carpet was white.
And so every day, you know, I'd be at home, youknow, taking care of babies and he would, you
(06:57):
know, he would walk in the door with muddyboots and I'd get so mad.
I'm like, how dare you?
Don't you know that I've been here cleaningthis house, cooking all day, taking care of
these kids and you're coming in here with thesemuddy boots?
And it just really got under my skin.
And then finally, one day I just kind of satdown and I thought about it and it was just
like this epiphany hit me like, you know what?
These muddy boots represent that he is going towork every day, that we have work every day,
(07:23):
that we are paying our bills, that he is cominghome every day and he's not out at some bar,
you know?
And so now when I see these dirt clods, it'slike, okay, it's a reminder of all the things
that have brought us where we're at, that and Iinvested in a really good carpet shampooer.
So, but yeah, that, you know, things like that,kind of just got to take it in stride and maybe
(07:45):
changing the perspective, I think has a lot todo with being successful and having long term
viability in this business.
And so that for us has worked really well.
That's, it's a good, that's a great reminderfor everybody.
Cause like you having lived through many homeswith the women that ran the home, I totally
(08:06):
could see the, Hey, I just cleaned the floors.
I can hear this in my brain, but then to havethe perspective of like, yes, I am muddy.
I am dirty.
I am, I am full of earth work as I come homefrom work to be reminded, like, what does that
mean though?
Like why, why is there the positive, which Ilove.
So kudos to you for hitting that perspectiveand then having that shit. Took
Took
me a minute to get there and every once in awhile I still need a good reminder, but, it's,
(08:32):
it's definitely been a learning and growingprocess for sure.
Navigating family, kids work, and then tryingto do it all the right way.
You feel like you're not, and you feel likeyou're not doing enough or there's, know, the
work life balance, that's a myth, you know, so,but yeah, it's definitely a process.
Yeah.
What is, what are family dinners like when youare not only a family, but also business
(08:56):
partners?
And we talk about dirt a lot.
Yeah.
Lot of dirt, a lot of dirt talk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I think that's kind of what makes oursituation unique too, with him being in the
field side, me being in the office side, we'reliterally having the, you know, there's, you
know, sometimes there's a disconnect betweenthose two sides, right?
Well, we're literally having that dinner tableconversation of, you know, how the job's going,
(09:17):
you know, things that we can do better nexttime, ways that we can improve our production.
That way, you know, when I bid the nextproject, can keep that in account.
So it's just constantly shifting and evolving,you know, based on those discussions that we're
having at the dinner table with our family.
And like I said, our son that just turned 18,he's actually an employee of ours too.
He operates heavy equipment.
(09:38):
So he's coming in there and, you know, he'sputting his 2¢ in and kind of bouncing that off
of mom and dad.
What do y'all think about this?
Or here's how I overcame this challenge andHey, we hit some unsuitable soils, but, we
overcame.
And so it's pretty neat to get to do that.
That's super, that's gotta be amazing that, youknow, obviously you started the business
before, he was around and now he's in thebusiness and now giving you input or advice in,
(10:05):
in whatever way that comes, that's gotta bequite the complete the circle feeling.
There's always something to talk about.
Oh yeah for sure.
So CMGC so you you a few years ago you go tothis thing and you don't you don't know if
you're going to be able to do the work or oryou know complete the projects.
(10:25):
So what a) let's give people a quick rundown ofwhat that means as well as where are the
advantages?
Mean you obviously talked about like savings onthe cost side as well as in the time side.
Most most business owners would be like, well,I like saving, like I like saving time and
money.
That's generally a good thing.
That's fun, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, for sure.
So let's talk about that.
(10:46):
Yeah.
So I think kind of what's been driving this,this shift in these alternative delivery
methods is, like we talked about before is the,you know, the system's broken where, you know,
a lot of the way things have been done inOklahoma, it's based on low bid, you know,
there's, they're weighing price overqualifications.
So with So with CMGC it's qualification basedand basically you, I mean, we still have an
(11:10):
independent cost estimator that makes sure thatwe are in line on our pricings that we are not
gouging, but it's more qualification based.
And then for us, what we've done is so, youknow, we self perform the earthwork part of it.
So we're able to manage materials in the fieldthe most efficient way.
We're able to look at a job site and say, Hey,you know, let's get with design and let's get
(11:31):
with civil.
And if we adjust these grades, these proposedgrades a little bit, we can balance the site
and save $250,000 on material and trucking.
And we've done that several times actually hererecently.
So that's, that's what we get enjoyment out ofis providing these solutions that, Hey, it
saves the owner money.
It's win win for the team.
And then also what we've done is we've kind ofbuilt a roster of industry leaders based on the
(11:57):
bundle of projects that we have.
So like in Seminole right now, it's mainly likeearthwork and paving.
And so we partnered with Haskell Lemon, whichis the number one paving company in Oklahoma.
We're able to work with them hand in hand andtheir chief estimator.
She's amazing.
She knows design.
(12:19):
She's designed roads before.
She's able to offer innovations on the designside.
And then not only are we catching those savingson design, but then out in the field, we're
continuing to innovate and saving the ownereven more money out there while minimizing
risk.
And so we're addressing that in the verybeginning stages of the project, whereas
(12:39):
typically a project's designed, you know, ayear ahead of time.
And then, you know, we get it as thecontractor, the builder, we're like, Oh, okay.
So this isn't going to work.
This isn't going work.
And this isn't work, which equals change order,change order, change order.
And a lot of times, you know, those are budgetbusters.
It'll shut down a project or it costs the ownera lot of money that they didn't anticipate.
(13:02):
And so now it's a lot more, you kind of havethis environment where there's a lot of finger
pointing.
It's very combative whenever you try to comeand say, well hey you know this wasn't
accounted for in your plans.
Know what do you want to do now?
And it's just not a good situation.
And so with CMGC, you're overcoming all ofthat.
You're figuring all that out in the beginningstages so that when you do get to construction,
(13:24):
you're saving money and saving time.
And so we had one particular project for theSeminole Nation.
It was called Econtextra Road.
It had spent, I think, seven years just kind ofin limbo because it was over engineered, over
designed and over budget.
We then were presented that was part of, the 17projects.
(13:45):
That was our first one right out the gate.
Hospital lemon was able to come in there,provide some, some value engineering options.
We spent about forty five days in design andthen fifteen days in construction and had it
done for about $800,000 worth of savings versustraditional yeah, traditional construction
methods.
(14:06):
So this is, this is where we hope the industryis going.
And why we're big fans of CMGC.
That's so wild.
As I mentioned to you, not ever swinging ahammer, not ever having to do a CAD drawing or
any of these things.
Had this 04:30AM walk with my dog, about a yearand a half ago, two years ago or something.
(14:26):
I was like, there has to be a better way thatconstruction can operate.
This is, was going Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
I, I, you know, obviously talking to tons ofleaders in the space for building scale and
like obviously seeing it from the IT and cyberside and helping those companies, but it was
(14:49):
the business, like the structure of how thebusiness was operating.
Operating.
And not not one specifically, the industryacross the board.
It was just like, this doesn't make sense tome.
Like it was it was very frustrating.
Lots of things about construction don't makesense to me inherently.
When when me and Will will talk to a leader andwe're like, we just don't understand how like
you're going to do work, you're going to cashflow all that work, all that labor materials.
(15:12):
And then like, you're going to wait hopefullyninety days, maybe one hundred and twenty days
long until you get paid on that thing.
Just to us is insane.
Like, that's like, that idea ever, Like, howcould the like, how could you sustain and how
could you grow?
And unless you have giant deep pockets, itbecomes very restrictive, especially for a
smaller business to elevate and to get to thenext level, to go from doing a house to then
(15:36):
doing federal work.
Takes a long time to be able to do that.
I feel like that changing how the industryoperates would help that that would speed up
that process in as well as all the innovationthat I think is there to be had, but it's just
you're not incentivized to be more efficient orto, you know, like, it's just like, if I could
(15:58):
just not to suggest that this is what isabsolutely happening, but if I can change order
the hell out of something to make more money,that is probably the route I go compared to
like, let me make this more efficient and getzero change orders and then make less money.
But it's just like, again, it's like it's amindset shift.
And so like, no, you can be so much moreefficient that you save so much more money.
(16:20):
And they love working with you because like anowner loves to save time and money.
Like if you can be above a faster schedule andlower costs, like, well, that's a no brainer.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, usually, I mean, I would say, so we'vehad no, we've had zero change orders and that
is ultimately the goal is to have no changeorders, no surprises for anybody.
(16:43):
You've already figured that out on the frontend of it.
So yeah, it's, it's a much easier, much lesscombative process for sure.
Okay.
So what, what are other things that you're, soobviously you're saying like, we need to be
structurally different contractually.
What are other things that you're doing thatare more process driven that are like you know
(17:04):
are either misses in the industry or thingsthat you've just seen that like this works
really well for us like we found man, like thisis, this is a sneaky trick that we've kind of
uncovered.
Yeah.
So I think kind of the, another aspect of thatwould be kind of, you know, we've, we've
learned to really embrace technology with notonly the field side, but the office side.
(17:27):
And so it's not so much a sneaky trick, but itabsolutely keeps you accountable and it's
digital data that cannot be questioned.
It'll hold up in court.
You know, we've had instances where, you know,a lot of times a dirt contractor will just go
in there and say, Hey, I moved X amount ofdirt, you know, write my check.
How do you know?
(17:49):
You know, the owner, a lot of times an ownerhas no way to verify that, you know?
So we go in, we have GPS on all of ourequipment.
It tells us exactly where we're at, how muchdirt we need to move.
And we also utilize AgTech software the officeside.
And so what that does is it allows me to go inand compare proposed against existing.
(18:12):
We then are able to provide our owner with athree d model of what exactly their job site
will look like.
They can see all the cuts, fills, they can seethe dynamics of the job site.
A lot of times we'll have an owner say, well,know, we just want to do phase one first and
well, one is a huge import job.
But then we look at the overall siteholistically and it's like, well, phase two is
(18:34):
an export site.
So how about doing all the dirt work all atonce?
You know, you don't have to build all yourbuildings all at once, but just do your dirt
work all at once.
Your site will balance and save you a ton ofmoney, time, all that.
And so AgTech's a huge part of that.
They have a really neat site balancing tool toothat'll basically say, hey, if you can adjust
(18:58):
your elevations by X amount, you can balanceyour site.
And they also have a, it's a rock alert whereyou can put in your geotechnical data of where
all your layers of rock are.
That's a huge change order in earthwork is, youknow, you go out there and, surprise, you hit
rock.
Well, now you have to excavate rock, whichthat's a huge cost.
(19:22):
And so with AgTech, you can actually go in andmake your straddle layer of where that rock
layer is.
You can quantify it.
And so again, that's something you can addresson the front end versus it being a surprise on
the, on the back end and causing problems.
Yeah.
I find that what's the saying measure twice,cut once kind of concept where it's like, if
(19:43):
you just plan a little bit more, like you justtake that time to really dig into some details,
you can be so, so much more efficient, whichthen obviously creates the savings.
So you is usually something you don't find incompanies, at least certainly not until they
get to a very large size.
(20:04):
Then they start saying like, need aninnovations team or something like that.
How does, how does technology help in, inregards to getting people to essentially come
work for you or labor, you know, just labor ingeneral, right?
That's a huge issue.
But if you are being more on the forefront ofboth contractually, Hey, we're trying to do
this different, which then has a full impactacross everybody in the company and we're
(20:29):
trying to be more technology forward like whatdoes that then create for your people?
Right and so I would say you know number one ithelps recruit and attract potential employees.
They like the nicer equipment.
And so your equipment that has the GPS on itobviously is going to have a cab and all that,
where sometimes you see this ancient, you know,rust bucket out there.
(20:50):
And so obviously it attracts them right off thebat.
They're like, wow, that's cool.
And especially with the younger generation,they're kind of techy anyway.
So they want to be able to, you know, have ascreen that shows them exactly where they are
in relation to the job site and how deep theircut is and where they're at on that.
And so for us, it's neat because you can takethose plans, they're digitized, and then it's
(21:13):
put into a three d model into the machinethat's then up on a screen where your operator
can then look at it and feel more confidentthat they are where they need to be.
They're basically only having to do it onceinstead of having a bunch of rework.
So for us, you can do twice the work with halfthe crew.
That will again, more efficient, right?
(21:36):
It seems to keep coming back around to that.
So then how do you do you find new recruits?
What's the path for recruiting for y'all?
Yeah.
So since we have three boys, it comes prettynaturally to try to reach out to high schools
and things like that to generate that interest.
Hey, have you ever looked at a career inconstruction?
(21:58):
And so we have a lot of fun with that.
We've gone to a lot of events where there'sheavy equipment simulators.
We've got some organizations here that justtravel around the different high schools and
they bring a heavy equipment simulator wherethere's a headset, a virtual reality headset
and they're you know on the screen you can seethem they're you know moving dirt around or
(22:19):
moving materials and love it and they've neverbeen exposed to it before.
I heard a story we went to a construction rodeoa couple weeks ago and we were just we were so
like appalled that some of these poor kids hadnever even been on a construction site or knew
anything about equipment or had any idea whatthat entailed.
And there was a little boy that was asking, youknow, well, Hey, do you think you might want to
(22:42):
have a career construction?
His answer was, well, yeah, but I don't want tohold a flag in the middle of the road.
That's all we thought it was.
And so we're like, no.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I think just kind of, getting exposureout in our communities with the high schools,
that's something we're big fans of.
Like I said, with us having three boys and oneof them that actually works for us, he's able
(23:03):
to actually go and speak to these kids.
He spoke to about 200 of them at thatconstruction rodeo and you know they can relate
to him because he's their age.
He looks like them.
He talks like them.
And so he was able to relate to them in a waythat we couldn't.
And so just to see their eyes light up that,you know, when they got to jump in a backhoe or
got to go form some concrete or got to learnabout how electrical lines work and things like
(23:27):
that, it was pretty neat.
And so I think there needs to be a bigger pushon that.
I wish more companies would get on board withtrying to recruit the younger generation
because I feel like there's, I mean, I thinkwe've talked about it before.
There's a gap right now.
There's a hiring gap because you've got theolder generation retiring, but the younger
(23:48):
generation is not coming in as quick as whatthe old older generation is leaving.
So, yeah, we definitely try to push that asmuch as we can.
So one to be clear holding a sign on thehighway in that scenario those kids are seeing
that they're being shortsighted because you canmake a great a great living holding a sign so
to be clear about that back Nothing wrong
(24:10):
with fine holders.
Nothing wrong.
Yeah.
Sure.
Fine holders.
Yeah.
But yeah, to your point, there's so likethere's so many other aspects of construction
like that's like there there's so there's backoffice, there's project management stuff,
there's design components, there's engineering,there's so much stuff that's in the space.
But one question that I have, because you know,I'm I'll say I'm common folk.
(24:32):
What what's a construction rodeo?
What, what is, what is this amazing thing?
Yeah.
So it was super fun.
So it was actually put on by an organizationcalled construct my future.
And they're a nonprofit that basically engageswith kids to try to get them, you know, to a
possible career in construction.
Cause you know, when we were growing up, wasalways, had to be, to go to college, you had to
(24:53):
be a doctor, a lawyer or something like And thetrades almost kind of got put on the back
burner.
And so it's like, not a whole lot of kids knowabout it.
They don't know that, hey, you actually, youdon't, I mean nothing wrong with college, but
you don't have to go to college to make a goodliving and you could jump right in and start
doing it today.
And so that basically they had, they startedoff with interviews.
(25:19):
They had all these kids from all differentschools, country schools, inner city schools,
and come in, they ask us questions about, youknow, what do you do?
What is your company about?
And so we got to talk about that and they askedquestions about, you know, how would they get
into construction?
And so we talked about that a little bit.
And then the second half of the day, everybodywent outside and there was some equipment
(25:43):
dealers that brought out, excavators, loaders,track hose, vac hose, dozers, had them all
lined out up there.
And then they even had games set up where likethere was bowling balls set up on these poles.
And the goal was to take the bucket of theexcavator, get the bowling ball off the pole
and then dump it into the bucket next to it.
(26:05):
Wow.
And then, you know, so all, you know, thesekids are super competitive, you know, so now
it's a game, right?
And so they would do that.
Well, then if you could get the bowling ballthen they switched it over to a tennis ball.
So then it got tricky right so that was fun towatch and they had they had guys out there
forming concrete so the kids got to see how allthat worked and they had some linemen out there
(26:27):
showing them you know how the electrical lineswork.
Just all different aspects of construction thatyou normally wouldn't see upfront and personal
and get to be hands on with.
That's what they got to do.
Well, that's, the one it sounds fun.
I want to come to a construction radio now.
You gotta come to the next one
for sure.
It'll be me and a bunch of children.
That's, you know, it'll be fine.
(26:48):
It'd be totally, totally fine.
So, okay.
So, going to events like that is a good way torecruit the, the young.
How do you then train the young to be able toto actually do the job?
Right?
Because this is, it's not that we don't haveenough human beings.
Right?
Like, that's
not like that's not the thing.
And as you get more young people into thetrades, this will help our labor problem over
(27:13):
time but today if I needed a job done like itrequires somebody with experience right you
have to have some concept of what we're doing
right
so how do you what's the struggle there and howdo you,
know, and that's tough, right?
Because a lot of the people that we hire, sothis is kind of ironic, but we've actually
learned that it's almost better to hiresomebody with no experience versus somebody who
(27:39):
is the been there done that and doesn't want tolearn a new way to do things, especially with
the technology on the equipments.
It seems like they just, it's really hard tograsp.
So we've kind of learned that, bringingsomebody in who has basically no experience and
can learn it that way.
And really it's all about their work ethic,right?
(27:59):
Yeah.
We can train skill all day long, but if youdon't have the work ethic, it does you no good.
And so we always say, you know, are youcoachable?
Are you trainable?
You know, are you willing to show up to workfor every day?
If you can check those boxes, you're hired.
We can train the rest.
And so, you know, one of our best operators twoyears ago, he was a mailman.
(28:20):
And so, and he's just caught on real quick andhe's, he's made a really good hand.
Yeah, I, for us, it's just having the willingattitude is 90% of it and we can train the
rest.
All right.
That's fair.
What about on the Centimeters side?
So obviously as you're doing this, I'm guessingthat you're not doing this to where it's like,
need to have multiple, I don't know, you don'tcall them, it wouldn't be a project manager,
(28:45):
maybe a project manager.
I don't know.
Don't know.
I don't know.
I guess let's explain the structure of how yougo from doing this specialty trade to then
doing a construction management.
Yeah.
So that was definitely a learning experiencetoo.
And so it was something we had always seen fromthe other side, right.
Being a sub.
And so we kind of always knew like the goodproject managers, how they kind of worked and
(29:08):
maybe some of the not so good ones, things thatwe didn't want to repeat.
And so I think seeing it from the other sidekind of helped us transition.
And then again, just surrounding ourselves withthe right people that could really help us
support, like learn and grow in that positionwhere, you know, and again, my project manager
that I have right now, she had no experiencecoming to us, but she a % had the right mindset
(29:33):
where she was just like, she jumped right in.
She was like, I can help do whatever.
I never heard, you know, that's not my job, orI don't know how to do that.
She would say, I maybe don't know how to dothat, but I'll figure it out.
She was a hairdresser before she came to us.
Like another, you wouldn't really think wouldlead to construction, but she's amazing at it.
(29:55):
So, but yeah, it's definitely, I think mindsetis, is so it plays such a big part in it.
Then, like I said, the skill part can comelater.
That's super intriguing kids, male men, andhairdressers.
That's that's, that's, that's the secret.
Yep.
We're, we're not tapping into those enough.
That's that's awesome.
(30:16):
You mentioned the mindset shift, obviously withthe model, how you're attacking jobs or how
you're looking at jobs because that's not thecommon, right?
Like, cause you're, we're still living in thereality that lots of jobs get low bid, right?
Like, or even, even like a design bid build,right?
Or something, you know, like there's othermodels that are out there that are more
(30:37):
dominant than a CMGC.
How do you balance taking work?
Right.
Obviously that's where you want to go.
This is the vision that you Yeah.
A % like, yeah, we, I mean, there's a side ofWDS that does the construction management and
CMGC and progressive design build.
And then there's another side of WDS that westill do.
We're still just the earthworks sub, but Ithink where it's benefited us is we take the
(31:02):
mindset from the CMGC progressive design buildand we apply it to where we're a sub and we try
to, you know, still bring those things to thetable, you know, yes, we're still a little bit
later to the game, but if we can present thoseideas or those options to that owner or that
general contractor, I think they look at usthen more as a trusted partner because we, they
(31:24):
know we're looking out for them.
And so they're happy with us and they'llcontinue to use us for their next job.
For sure.
So, and you mentioned building a rosteressentially of partners of like, who other
people that are also in like, or like mindedHow do how do you how do you do that?
How do you find other partners that not onlyyou're thinking the same way, but you also have
(31:47):
a level of trust with them?
Right?
Because it's like, you know, there's a lot ofcompetition that exists right in the world,
which is good because it pushes us forward.
But I think there's a level of that that alsocan stunt our growth, right?
It's just like when you actually collaborateand, cooperate together, you can build things
that you didn't think you could build.
Like it just like, there's, there's more,there's more advantage to sharing knowledge in
(32:11):
my opinion.
Right.
So how do you find great partners like thatthat you can add to the roster?
Right.
So I think a lot of that came from just beingin the industry for so long.
You kinda see the good, the bad, and the ugly.
You see the companies that have, you know,staying power that have, you know, done the
right thing when nobody was looking, or youheard stories that, you know, this other
(32:33):
company did it the wrong way.
So you're like, okay, we're not gonna callthem.
And then, yeah, just kind of having thoserelationships prior to jumping into this, I
think is what really helped us.
And then kind of knowing that they would be agood partner.
And then I think, I mean, soon as like with theCMGC, as soon as they heard, you know, this new
method, they had kind of experienced the samething we did that, you know, it was kind of a
(32:55):
broken system that was outdated, you know, withlow bid.
And so they immediately latched on, you know,and so, like I mentioned before, Haskell lemon
was a big one.
The stronghold construction was another bigone.
They immediately had the same mindset of, Hey,we can do things better.
We can better our, our industry by doing itthis way.
(33:18):
Cause it's, it's win win for everybody now,because if, if owners keep having bad
experiences in construction, they don't want todo it anymore.
Right.
And so if we can give them a good experience,they save money, they save time.
That helps us all.
It keeps us busy then.
Yep.
No, totally.
You've mentioned getting recognized DBE.
(33:38):
How has that impacted the business?
So I think that's opened some doors too.
So there's not a whole lot of woman minorityowned earthwork contractors.
All right well that yeah very specific yeah inOklahoma.
Can't think
of any in Oklahoma.
So there's definitely some incentives therewith federal work and there's a percentage of
(33:59):
set aside there.
I will say that I'm glad that the applicationprocess has gotten a lot more stringent because
I think a lot of people were taking advantageof that where, you know, there would be a
husband, wife team and maybe the, you know,they wanted to get those advantages, but the
wife has no idea of the day to day structureoperations of the business.
(34:21):
So they just put her on paper as owner andthen, well, that's not helping anybody.
And so I know for me personally, the processwas very intense, very stringent.
It was about a year long deal.
But I'm glad it was that way because they'reweeding out all the bad players.
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
(34:41):
So the federal work that you're doing,obviously you're getting to be able bid on
this, or in this case you're getting to gothrough this process to get those projects.
What are, what are other areas of growth thatyou're seeing for the company?
So I would say probably that we wanna keepgoing with the alternative delivery methods.
And then another one would probably be get moreinto the transportation side of things.
(35:06):
Okay.
Are we trying to dip our toe in ODOT work andthings like that?
We haven't yet explored that.
That's definitely something on our radar.
We'd like to try to get involved there.
And then also we just, we like doing the dirtwork still too.
So I don't think we'll ever get away from that.
But I can't ever imagine us not doing that.
So, but yeah, I would say probably justcontinuing on with what we've got going on
(35:29):
right now.
Got it.
All right.
That makes a total sense.
Yeah, this has been a lot of fun.
I, I love, people that are trying to move theindustry forward.
That's essentially at the end of the day iswhat you're saying.
Like, there's just a better way to do things,and maybe we should just think about that more
globally.
And, like you were doing, building a rosteraround that concept to be able to say, if you
(35:54):
get a bunch of like minded people together,that's how you get power, right?
So they'd say like, how do you go from good togreat?
Well, you bring people with you.
Like, that's that's how you do it, right?
You have to do it together, which is awesome tohear that that's effectively what you're
Yeah.
We're trying really hard.
We've done a lot of learning and growing andwe're not perfect by any means yet.
We're still, we're still learning.
(36:15):
But like I said, I think having the rightpeople around us, one of my good friends, she's
a project manager from Stronghold Construction.
Her name is Catherine and I look up to her somuch, but she has a saying that really
resonated with me and she said, show me yourfriends and I'll show you your future.
So it's, you know, really about who yousurround yourself with.
Yeah.
You are the five people you're closest to.
(36:39):
Yes.
That's why I try to talk to as many amazingpeople as possible to find the best, the best
ones.
So, and you're, you're definitely on that listof awesome people.
So thank you.
I appreciate that.
Yeah.
So, before we sacrifice, is there anything elseyou'd like to tell the listeners or share or
thought or a plug, whatever, whatever's kind ofgoing on?
Yeah.
(36:59):
I would just say, I definitely am here to help.
If anyone has any questions about what we'redoing, how we're doing it, I'm pretty much an
open book.
So they're free to go to my website, call meanything like that.
We're always happy to meet new people and kindof expand our network.
And so, yeah, we're, we're excited to be hereand we want to help support others around us.
(37:22):
Awesome.
I will throw all the links into the show notes,but if somebody's just listening, what's the
best way for them to get ahold of you?
So probably my email would beJennieJENY@WDSteams.com.
Or you can go to my website, all theinformation's on there at WDScontracting.com.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
This has been a lot of fun and, I look forwardto future conversations and I'm gonna get you
(37:46):
out here to Phoenix when we have another event.
Especially if we talk, you know, new deliverymethods.
I think that that would be a fun, just day or acouple days of it.
So, yeah.
So, listeners, this has been a ton of fun forme.
Jenny's smiling, so that's always a good thing.
And, until next time.
Adios.
Great.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Building Scale.
(38:07):
To help us reach even more people, please sharethis episode with a friend, colleague, or on
social media.
Remember, the three pillars of scaling abusiness are people, process, and technology.
And our mission is to help the AEC industryprotect itself by making technology easy.
(38:27):
So if you think your company's technologypillar could use some improvement, book call
with us to see how we can help maximize your ITcybersecurity strategy.
Just go to buildingscale.net/help.
And until next time.
Keep building scale.
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